Henry Clay Conner, Jr. shares his extraordinary WWII experience from joining the 27th Bomb Group as a communications officer to becoming a guerrilla leader in the Japanese-occupied Philippines. His candid account reveals how unprepared American forces were for the reality of war in the Pacific and the cultural misunderstandings that led to tragedy.
• Born in Indianapolis on August 31, 1918 and graduated from Duke University in 1940
• Joined the Army Air Force in January 1941 with minimal training in communications
• Assigned to the 27th Bomb Group, the first complete bomb group sent overseas in US military history
• Stationed in the Philippines when Japanese forces attacked just hours after Pearl Harbor
• Received no cultural orientation about Japanese attitudes toward prisoners of war
• Heard President Roosevelt describe American forces in Bataan as "expendable"
• Chose to escape rather than surrender when Bataan fell on April 9, 1942
• Survived for 34 months behind enemy lines, leading guerrilla forces with Filipino support
• Witnessed firsthand how Japanese occupation forces mistreated Filipino civilians
• Credits Filipino loyalty and support for his survival throughout the occupation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Risk and Resolve.
And now for your hosts, benConner and Todd Hufford, welcome
back to another episode of theRisk and Resolve pod.
I'm excited, you'll see, I'mhere by myself today Again one
of your co-hosts, ben Conner butI'm excited to announce a
(00:23):
five-part series that we'regoing to start today.
That will be kind ofintermingled over the next month
and a half with our regulartype of episodes, but this
five-part series is reallyspecial to me.
We are going to releaserecordings from my grandfather.
(00:48):
So a little bit about thebackstory of my grandfather.
Obviously or maybe notobviously to some my grandfather
, clay Conner, was the originalfounder of Conner Insurance.
You know we are a thirdgeneration insurance agency in
Indianapolis.
So our firm was started by mygrandfather and my grandfather
(01:10):
has a very interesting story andthat interesting story was life
changing for him, which wascertainly then life changing for
the rest of our family.
Rest of our family and hisexperiences in his personal
(01:32):
journey really is a tangiblefootprint and fingerprints on
our family and within theknitting of our company.
So a little bit of the backstoryof my grandfather.
He actually grew up on the EastCoast.
Story of my grandfather.
He actually grew up on the EastCoast.
He was an only child, went toDuke University and ended up
enlisting to serve in World WarII and he was stationed in the
(01:55):
Philippines and had anincredible war story where he
ended up being missing in actionfor almost 30, over 30 months
in the Philippines, you know,organized a guerrilla army and
survived and came back toAmerica because of his mother
(02:21):
and since he was an only child.
So what we're going to releaseis him recounting his story.
So the context to what you'regoing to listen to is a tape
recording from 1983.
Actually, that is the year thathe ultimately ended up passing
(02:41):
away was in 1983.
So this was months before hepassed away.
He did a recording with DougClanahan of the Indiana
Historical Society and thepurpose of this recording was to
capture or to detail ahistorical account of what he
experienced in the Philippineswhile he was missing in action,
(03:06):
and so they wanted to capturethat war experience.
But they also wanted him todetail just like, who are you
Like?
What was your background beforethis incredible event occurred
in your life?
So, and the reason thatinterview existed was because
the indie star in 1983 wrote anarticle about his story on flag
(03:32):
day, and the reason why is thathe had, uh, more or less the
story of a flag that nevertouched the ground, so flag that
he carried with him through hisexperience, that never touched
the ground and was kind of thathope of like adventure and
survival.
So, anyway, they posted, theywrote about that and published
(03:52):
it on Flag Day.
The Historical Society was likemy goodness, we need to capture
more of this man's account.
And so that's what you're goingto hear over the next five
weeks.
And what I'm also pleased toshare is that we also are going
to have an interview, followingthat five-week series, with the
(04:14):
author of the book Resolve, andI have a copy right here, so a
copy of this book Resolve.
This book is about his warstory, written by Bob Welch.
So we're going to it's going tobe kind of a capstone to this
series we're going to interviewBob Welch, who's an incredible
person in and of himself, sowe're going to tell his story
(04:34):
but just dig into what hisexperience was like in um, in
writing the story of mygrandfather, that that biography
and capturing just who he wasas a person.
So, um, full disclosure.
Uh, the audio on this, again,it's a tape recording from 1983.
So the audio uh isn't thehighest quality, um, but I still
(04:58):
think it's really purposeful umto share this story.
So, um, I'm pleased to sharewith you my grandfather, clay
Connor.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Mr Connor, first of all, thank you for giving me the
opportunity to record thisinterview, and the first
question I have for you is whatis the place and date of your
birth August 31st 1918,Indianapolis, Indiana, All right
and what were the names of yourparents?
My father was Henry Clay Connor, who went by the name of Clay
(05:32):
Connor, and my mother wasMarguerite Dearing, and I was
the only child and I went alsoby the name of Clay Conner, or
rather Clay Conner Jr.
So the community and those whoknow me in business have always
known me as Clay Conner, but Iuse the legal name and have now
(05:58):
in my old age, been using itmore in order to identify me
from my son, Henry Clay ConnorIII.
Okay, what was the occupationof your father?
I assume that your motherdidn't work, you know, outside
the home.
But what did he do?
He was a salesman and wasemployed by the Allison Company
(06:25):
here in Indianapolis in 1926 andbecame their eastern
representative in 1928.
And their primary target wasbanks.
That was the beginning of thefinance business in the American
economy, because personal loanswere not common prior to that
(06:49):
time.
So they manufactured the couponbooks or finance books and then
branched into Jeter Waters andplaces like that.
So I grew up on the East Coastbecause we lived in Clarkburg,
Connecticut, Harrisburg,Pennsylvania, and Irvington in
East Orange, New Jersey.
When did you move away fromIndianapolis?
1928.
(07:10):
1928, when you would be about10 years old, and then moved
around in those areas.
So your education it occurredboth here and then on the East
Coast.
I graduated in Irvington, NewJersey High School in January of
1937.
And my father had a reasonableSouthern heritage decided that
(07:37):
my best interest would be servedby going to a school below the
Mesa Dixon line.
So I went to Duke Universityand was glad for it, Graduated
in the class of 1940, just priorto World War II.
What was your getting back tothe high school in New Jersey?
What was your major there?
(07:57):
In high school my primaryinterest was always history and
economics Very cool.
And then at Duke you alsomajored in those subjects.
In economics I had an A-Bdegree in economics as a major.
I actually had three majors butmy primary interest has always
(08:17):
been economics and history.
Did you take ROTC at Duke, Anykind of military contact prior
to your graduation?
No, none.
I don't believe there was anyROTC at Duke prior to Wolf.
I don't know if there was.
I wasn't aware of it.
(08:37):
I never saw anybody run theirown uniform down there After you
graduated.
Let me refresh my memory Juneof 1940.
June of 40.
June of 1940.
This is naturally prior toPearl Harbor.
Did you get a job right afterthat, or did you look for work?
My father gave me two daysvacation and subsequently
(08:59):
notified me that it was over andthat I had commenced.
Not only had I been tocommencement at Duke, of which
he was very proud, but I wasgoing to commence to work
immediately to relieve him ofall of his years of burden,
although I did work at Duke andenjoyed it.
(09:20):
I'm glad I did.
I went to work for theAliceville Coupon Company in
Indianapolis as a pressman.
What's it been?
What was a pressman?
Somebody who actually printsthe coupons?
Yes, I was running a pressgroup.
I didn't do a very good job.
I almost killed myself.
I had absolutely no mechanicalability or talent.
(09:41):
I was too interested in all thethings that were going on in
business to deal with theslowness of the mundane
operation of the printing pressgrinding out thousands of pieces
of paper.
But the war also was coming onand I was very fascinated by
(10:01):
things that were happening inEurope.
So I left there on my own andwent back to the East Coast One
day would this be, excuse me, mrPowell?
Well, that would be probablySeptember 1st of September,
right after my birthday 40.
And tried to enlist, believe itor not, in the Marines Navy Air
(10:25):
Force, army Air Force.
But yeah, there was a waitinglist for those schools.
In those days I didn't realizethat yes, there was, and they
had what they called cadet army.
They were officers training incadet schools and so I finally
(10:48):
was accepted, but at a futuredate.
I was not actually on the listuntil about the second or third
school of communications which Iwent to in January of 41.
What would that be located?
Scottfield, illinois, oh,scottfield, that's in southern
(11:09):
Illinois, or outside, very closeto East St Louis.
East St Louis Okay, that'd bewest of Scottfield.
It's Belleville, belleville,okay.
Well, anyway, in the interimperiod I had to do something.
In the interim period I had todo something.
So I went to work as a fullerbrush man in the daytime, going
(11:29):
door to door through Montclair,which is a very fashionable
large mansion type of townsuburb of Moorick In New Jersey,
and then at night I worked withArthur Murray as a dance
instructor.
(11:50):
So I had a lot going and had awonderful time and enjoyed my
days.
I got up at six and went to bedprobably at one in the morning
and I was able to buy a new carand do a lot of things and it
was really a fun time.
I enjoyed every minute of itand I was looking forward to
(12:11):
getting in the service becauseall my friends had volunteered
or were doing the same thing Allover the country.
The graduates at Duke were allkind of getting in there and I
was looking forward to theexperience.
Did you have contact with yourfriends during this interim
period, before you actually gotinto the service and they were
telling you you know, I'mgetting into the service, how
(12:32):
about you?
Indirectly, I don't think we sitout and discuss the
consequences of it, the problemsinvolved, nor did we foresee
the magnitude of the involvementof the United States.
But it was kind of anunderlying thing that was moving
(12:55):
in the areas of those youngpeople, most of whom are very
patriotic, basicallyconservative, basically
conservative, uh and uh, I wouldsay 90 percent of the, the
young americans and collegegraduates in those days, were
thinking in terms of a patrioticeffort.
Oh, my friends were, yes, I.
(13:16):
So it's a different eracompletely.
And uh, I suppose there was acertain would you consider it
like a naivety about you.
You know the horrors of war.
There's a generation thathadn't really been exposed to it
.
I think Black Knight hadsomething to do with it.
World War I is kind of a distantmemory and this is a younger
generation who are reallyenthusiastic about I don't know
(13:37):
saving the world from democracy.
Is that the reading you got atthe time or the way you felt
yourself, right?
Well, old men don't fight wars,right, that's true.
Old men dream dreams, as theysay, and young men fight wars.
Yeah, but excuse me, I don'tthink that as a young man, you
(14:05):
have the fear of what can happen, nor do you have the reality of
death not you and or theproblems of being cut off or
isolated, or fever, compelled byfever, to be left to die or
(14:30):
injured.
I don't think you think of allthose things.
I think you think more in termsof my obligation to my country,
especially with the backgroundand the training and the
heritage they went through inthose days.
So when you finally went intothis cadet program, this would
be about June of 41?
.
Well, the cadet program?
(14:54):
No, I didn't go until January.
I think I raised my hand andwas in some time in mid-December
.
I was actually inducted inNewark on my papers.
In fact, we've got some ordershere.
I'll run them off for you.
I think I've got those ordersand I don't know the exact date,
but I think it was aroundJanuary the 7th or something
(15:15):
that I was to report to ScottField.
But it's right in that area.
Okay, what was the length ofyour training there at Scott
Field?
What was the length of yourtraining there at Scott Field, I
was assigned in July it seemsto me to Savannah Army Air Base,
(15:37):
to the 27th Army Group, whichis tactical unit.
I could have been assigned, Icould have taken my choices.
I could have been assigned, Icould have taken my choices.
You're standing in, your classgives you a choice of where you
can go to, whether you go to atraining base or you go to a
(15:59):
tactical unit.
And I was kind of intriguedwith that picking up a fighter
type right, bombing low, andit's a light bomb clip.
It was a brand new outfit.
It had been uh, organized fromthe third bomb down in barksdale
, louisiana, and signed to thensavannah army air base, which
then become later became, afterall, after the war started, I
(16:20):
guess on the front of field andit's now a subdivision.
You know, that's, that's theirway.
We stopped from Tybee Beachthere outside of Savannah.
I was assigned, I chose thatand that would be what most of
the guys in the lower part ofthe class would get, because
that would not be the units thatwould be assigned overseas.
(16:42):
Any dummy would know, if they'dsit down and think about it,
that you're picking an outfitthat's going to be first on the
line.
Well, I never thought aboutthat and besides, I thought
that'd be interesting if it wastrue.
And as a result, the 27 bottomis the first, the first air
group, army air group to ever besent overseas in the history of
(17:05):
the United States as a bombgroup.
They were the first one.
Prior to that time, the bombgroups that were overseas were
sent as squadrons and made agroup overseas, such as Pickham
Field or Clark Field.
Those groups came together fromsquadrons that were sent over,
but we were sent over as an airgroup.
(17:26):
How many planes?
1,700 men, 1,700 men.
We weren't fully staffed, butwe were 1,700 men and I was a
second lieutenant in this and agroup communications officer of
the 27th Barrow.
And we left San Francisco inNovember and got to the
(17:51):
Philippines about three weekslater, which is the latter part
of November, and of course wewere bombed on December the 8th
without any warning.
We knew that Pearl had been hita few hours earlier, but the
few hours was only, as the suntravels, because the Japanese
hit us at noon when they hitthem at six and of course the
(18:12):
sun west of Pearl does not comeup for about seven hours.
Six hours, then you've got theinternational date line.
So the 7th of December in Pearlwas the 8th of December in
Manila.
So we were actually hit withinhours Well, almost close to
being simultaneous of Decemberand Pearl was the 8th of
December in Manila, so we wereactually hit within an hour Well
, almost close to beingsimultaneous.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Well, within hours.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
The sun and the noon because of the flight out of
Formosa to Hiddens.
Where they hit.
They struck Pearl from aircraftcarriers, they struck us from
Formosa, so they had the flighttime.
So it was almost like asynchronized.
Oh yeah, I mean it wassynchronized.
(18:54):
In other words, one was plannedto hit Pearl you hear all about
the big planning and all that.
Well, they also planned to hitManila at the same time.
We just briefly touched on theactual training which was at
Skyfield, but I want to talkjust a little bit about the, the
training there, and then inrelationship to, uh, the
japanese attack, uh, could yougo into some a little bit of
(19:16):
detail about the kind oftraining you got at scott field
and do you think that thatadequately prepared you for what
the japanese did in thephilippines?
I mean, on the on the 8th ofdecember just Now?
This sounds like a loadedquestion.
No, that's ridiculous.
I was supposed to be a groupcommunications officer with
(19:45):
people in which I basically likepeople and had a lot of friends
and made friends quickly.
I would have been thelaughingstock of the group.
I was supposed to learn fromJanuary to July how to put a
transmitter.
They don't have transceivers,they have transmitters and
(20:07):
receivers, helicrafters and 5KW.
I didn't know one tube fromanother.
It was all tubes in those days.
Everyone they saw on stage andI didn't know one tube from
another.
I was so bad and I was supposedto be able to knock out CW 10
words a minute or 15 words aminute.
(20:29):
I couldn't do it.
I don't know how I even gotthrough the school.
Now that wasn't because I guessI was stupid.
If I graduated from college Ishould have been able to learn
all that.
But I told you earlier I wasnot really mechanically minded.
How in the world I ever gotinto that mess, I don't know.
But I had some wonderful,tremendously talented, brilliant
(20:56):
, in fact absolutely brilliant,well-experienced communications
people who could build atransmitter and receiver with
raw material.
Oh crap, I mean.
We on Batan had some of thefinest tenors you ever saw,
creative talent, and I hadtalent in other areas and put it
to use.
I was probably the bestscavenger on batan.
(21:19):
Our unit did not go home, noton batan, believe it or not.
You know they talk about thestarvation and all that.
I know how to get the food andthat was great.
That's very nice.
But if you say, let's put itthis way, I wound up in the
guerrilla force, leadingguerrilla, and was asked to
(21:41):
train after the war by the Army.
So they knew I knew somethingabout guerrilla tactics.
Right?
Do you know that in my entirearmy career prior to batan, I
had never fired a 45, I hadnever fired a browning automatic
?
Right, we had springfield oldthrees and infields.
Now you know what kind of guns?
Yeah, we ran, we had that earlyone, you know, or like.
(22:03):
Yeah, but they, what are they?
Uh, I can't even think of theNorm 16s and stuff.
Right, golly, do you ever fireda with a lot of old ammunition?
I'll bet too.
So I read someplace that accountthat appeared on NBC that maybe
(22:23):
one out of five or ten whatever, I don't know what the ratio
was would fire, and then therest were duds.
I didn't In an artillery shell,but you didn't, not in
guerrilla warfare.
I didn't have that problem.
Fortunately, whatever ammo Icame into worked.
Fortunately, because the onlything we used our ammo for,
(22:45):
because of the limitations of it, was a defense to escape.
Now, when we went in tointimidate and capture or get or
steal whatever you want to putit in a war, I don't think you
can steal anything from theenemy.
But that was the general tenure, because it was an occupied
country with another government,so we were like a bandals steel
(23:06):
.
But in any event, when we wentin we didn't fire one in, we
went in to do a job and fired toget out.
See, that's, that's after theoccupation, oh yeah, of japan.
Yeah, now let's put your yourinitial question was I
adequately trained?
I never, i't.
(23:27):
I couldn't operate a radio, Icouldn't transmit or receive
anything CW to intelligent,because those birds were
operating with all this highfrequency just fast and they and
you wouldn't believe how theycould transcribe.
Did you get any message trafficin about?
You know, there's this.
We had to speak on everything,john Tolan, saying that there
was messages coming in thewashington new prior to the
(23:49):
actual attack.
They'd broken the purple code,but messages weren't getting out
into the field in hawaii, theyweren't getting out into, uh,
the philippines.
You think that is indeed thecase.
You didn't get any prior warning, or or was there just rumors
about the japanese, possiblejapanese attack prior to the
attack on manila and prior toPearl Harbor, you know,
approximately the same day?
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
(24:12):
We were not even functioning.
Prior to the attack, we werejust stationed.
We were waiting for aircraft.
Oh, you didn't even haveaircraft.
Our airplanes were on anothership on the legs, which was a
freighter, and when the bombswere dropped they were traveling
at a lower rate of speed and,uh like, they discovered during
(24:35):
the trip that they forgot to putany of the coolant in than the
engines, so they couldn't flythem anyway.
So they took them to australia.
Wait, we're an air group.
That never existed.
You can.
So you said, and I was trainedin communications and other way.
Don't know anything about that.
I never had fired a gun and I'mgoing to Bataan to defend this
Bataan, which is a total defense.
(24:56):
So I was put in charge of aspecial communication group and
what I did was find all of thetown was fined.
All of the time.
I had carte blanche as a secondlieutenant by command of
General Wing and General Aiken.
General Wing, you ever heard ofToby Wing?
She was a movie star prior toWorld War II.
(25:18):
Her father was General Wing.
He was there.
Oh, yes, I recall that TobyWing, it's her father.
It's W-I-N-K, is it?
I don't know.
Maybe Wink it's her father.
It's W-I-N-K, is it?
I don't know, maybe Wink, Idon't really know.
Okay, anyway, general Lincolnand General Wink and General
King, they all liked me so theythought I could get this group
together.
So I put this Fifth InterceptGroup communication together and
(25:42):
I became the centerheadquarters for the group area.
A general command communication.
Wow, very impressive.
Did you get message trafficthen from Washington after this
was?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
done, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
We got traffic.
Well, we didn't get it directfrom Washington, we got it from
Del Monte, which was Mindanao,which was permanent in Australia
.
We got it from China.
We picked up some informationfrom China.
We picked up some from Mindanao, we picked up some from
Australia then, and now wepicked up some from Australia,
depends on the way things aregoing.
Did you see MacArthur at thistime, or at all?
(26:14):
Just twice?
Just twice, because it's a veryconfusing time, and probably
twice.
What kind of hours did you work?
You were working.
You know.
Probably they were workinghours.
Yeah, you're just living hours.
You're talking about before itstarted.
Oh, there was no working hours,everybody was surviving.
Yeah, you're surviving.
If you've got a million of theenemy coming in to occupy an
(26:36):
island and you're there in auniform that's the wrong color.
Nobody, there's no working,it's surviving, everything's
surviving.
So you moved out of Manila outto Bataan almost immediately
after then the attack on the 8thof December I'm trying to
(26:58):
establish some idea of a timeframe, you know like about a
week or whatever.
We set up a general area ofinformation at what was then
called Nielsen Field, which wasI became became the CEO.
I'd recently had a book, aguidebook where one of my
friends was that because he madethe CEO of Nielsen Field and
all this time I thought I wasthe CEO of Nielsen Field and I
(27:21):
don't know.
He probably was.
I'm going to see him, I thinkat a reunion.
I'm going to ask him.
And he was supposed to be.
According to him, he was the CO, but I got the orders from I
can't think of the general'sname.
He was out of the Army AirForce or something like that.
Anyway, arnold, no, no, anyway,he was in this book.
(27:46):
He was the CO.
Well, I must have been the headof communications at that.
But all this time, all theseyears, I thought I was the CEO
of the Associated.
Where's that located?
Right, isn't it?
It was old.
It's where McCotty is, a greatbig development of shopping and
all that.
This is the place where theplanes that they were supposed
(28:07):
to bring in, what was thevintage?
Or the 827 that they weresupposed to bring, boy oh boy,
they were already in for justabout everything at that time,
just scissor and paste.
What about morale after PearlHarbor, which is well, excellent
(28:27):
, it was very good, very good, Ithought when they nobody
figured we were going to loseanything or got a desperate and
we just were scurrying aroundthe side of what we were going
to do and we were going todefend Manila.
So we set up a warning and weset up this communications, this
communications and trying toget the planes in and out.
We were going to get a fewplanes off the ground because
(28:48):
the jets blown down most of ourplanes the first day and the
rest of them went to Australia.
So we had very little limitedair force left and so our
primary objective was to try todetermine what we're up against.
And I didn't even know we weretrying to determine what we're
up against.
The generals will figure thatout.
(29:09):
I just did what I was told todo and I said that's the hours
of sergeant.
Unless I was, you can't thinkof what the word I was, because
the attendant doesn't knowsergeant's using.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, anyway, I was dealingwith the sergeants.
They were giving me a dorm, butI was dealing with the
sergeants.
They were giving me a storm,but it was a madhouse.
(29:31):
But it's a good point that youmade about the level of morale.
I think the common conventionis that you always hear, and of
course they're talking aboutafter the defeat, but the fact
that, my gosh, they held out forfive months on Count Corregidor
and they held out for fourmonths if you count, uh, baton,
before a file on april, I guessit was the night of the day,
(29:52):
yeah, you wouldn't forget pubday and then bay six for 1942,
for corregidor, but the fact wasthat the morale level was high
and, uh, I heard an oldexpression was ignorance is
bliss.
Do you think the fact that youdidn't know your situation with
respect to Washington?
They said on this documentarythat help was not going to be
coming on the way, but the menthere didn't know it.
(30:13):
If you had known that there wasno help going to be on the way,
could you have held out thatlong?
There was always that hope toreally hold you together that
the reinforcements, the cavalry,was going to come in at the
last minute, like in the movies,and save you.
Did you even think?
Or was it just a case of oneday to the next and you never
really even thought about it?
Like, we're going to hold thisthing, no matter how long it
(30:34):
takes.
Well, the Bible said it as apoint in the mail was to die.
To them the judgment.
Well, he may know he's going todie, but he doesn't look like
it and we're not afraid all thetime.
Does he Every day's hope, everyday's hope?
Well, the fact is, the fact ofthe matter is that very few
(30:55):
people seem to remember thatPresident Roosevelt got on radio
again when certain things hadhappened in the tent and
(31:22):
MacArthur had been ordered inApril.
To excuse me, in March 3rd, 2ndor I had real good contact and
was immediately told if you werepresident of the United States
and my rationale was excellentand you had a man who really
knew the orange, would you orderhim out in order that he could
(31:46):
regroup and come back, or wouldyou let him die on the Monday?
I said I'd order him out.
He says then, do you think?
And all the scuttle was,macarthur escapes and we're left
behind, see.
And I said I think I wouldorder him out, I'd want to find
a man out of there.
And, of course, how are yougoing to get a bunch of them?
I said I'm going to get themout.
(32:07):
I said I'm going to put people.
But the president of the UnitedStates got on the radio and I
heard it.
I heard it coming out ofHonolulu that in asking the
question of botany, he saidthey're expendable.
That was President Roosevelt'swords, said they were expendable
(32:27):
.
That was President Roosevelt'swords, that they are expendable.
Now, when you hear thePresident of the United States
say they are expendable, that'sa write-off.
But if you're not there andyou're not one of the 30,000 men
and you're not one of the30,000 of the men's parents or
brothers and sisters, they'reexpendable.
(32:49):
You go to the next page, youread the next obituary, but when
it is you who they say, youstop and think what does that
mean?
Is that propaganda?
That's propaganda, couldn't beTrue.
Is that propaganda?
That's propaganda, couldn't betrue.
The President of the UnitedStates, a woman, saying you're
(33:09):
appointed, wants to die, you see.
So there's a disbelief aboutthis.
There's just future, not me,right?
You follow Right.
So, follow Right.
So it was a startling thing andit was a reality.
(33:30):
But you took the bull by thehorns and you determined to
survive.
And if you're determined tosurvive, you're going to use
every feasible new tact,technique and available method
to do just that.
(33:51):
You survived.
And that's what we did.
For four minutes, for fourmonths.
You did that.
When did you actually escapefrom Bataan?
Is it towards the end or was itafter the actual Bataan on
April 9th, your escape tookplace.
In other words, there's a manthat owns a radio station down
(34:14):
in the I guess it's Montgomeryor Seattle.
It's called Tuscaloosa, alabama.
I'm Ednock, his name's BertBank, he was a captain at the
time and he's still alive.
And Bert was on the front lineand he saw the Japanese breaking
through and he had a portableradio, because and a radio, they
(34:39):
were portable, and he was onthere warning that the japanese
had broken through the trouble,they were coming south and that
they were, uh, killing everybodyin the way.
Evil though they order, a lotof filipinos were carrying white
flags and so on.
(34:59):
Big men put down their arms.
They were still strengtheningand killing everybody along the
roadside, Moving the tanks andthe zigzag pattern killed people
on both sides of the road.
Get out of the way.
This is Burt Bank.
The Japanese are both the same.
They kept repeating it.
He's in my house at 27 Bond,but he was stationed up there
and I was stationed incommunications, so you were
(35:23):
further down the peninsula, downtowards the Corregidor area.
I was in what's called LittleBaggiel Little Baggiel, okay and
the death march started atMarvina, all the way up here to
San Fermin was where they putthem on the trunks.
They took them up to O'Donnell,which is right here, but Iowa
Station, little Baggiel, wasright here and the Japanese
(35:43):
broke right through here andwent scattered from like this
way, and they were coming downthese main roads to clear out.
Well, the Americans and theFilipinos were all up on the
sides of the mugs and bikes onthe main road and so forth.
We were in Old Baggio at thecommunication center, okay and
so and so I realized that thingswere in pretty bad shape.
(36:06):
So I talked to general staffand we were getting ready to.
We immediately sent thedemolition squads out to blow up
our ammunition dumps, which wewere right in the middle of the
ammunition dumps.
So for the next 24 hours thatplace was unbelievable.
Addition, and so the next 24hours that place was
unbelievable.
We had all kinds of mortars andheavy shells and everything.
(36:30):
It blew out every tree in thearea.
It was unbelievable.
We were all in shelters for atleast during the hours while
this thing was going on, justblowing all the tension,
struggling.
It took 20 hours, plus to itwas on trial.
It was absolutely unbelievable.
Well, anyway, we got a lot doneand of course nobody came in
(36:54):
there.
Lord, nobody was coming in orgoing out.
It was impossible.
Went on all night and all thenext day.
So the next day, so the next day, a guy by the name of Anderson
Captain Anderson, who had beento the Philippines prior to
World War II was on an airlineout of Manila and right to a
Filipino bureau Was LieutenantLapham.
(37:19):
On a few others, six of themwere coming through from another
area and said if you'd like togo over with us, we're going to
try to contact Colonel Thorpe,who was commissioned by General
McArthur to escape in ColonelJail from this area, went up
through here and set up a barrelof war with Brian at Wolfsport
(37:43):
and he was supposed to beoperating on the backside of the
right at Wolfsburg and he wassupposed to be operating on the
back side of the Japanese fromWolfsburg and gathering help
from the Filipinos, strength andunifying.
So that was a rallying pointthen for the Filipinos.
Some of their soldiers and suchthe Japanese were a lot
(38:04):
stronger force than theAmericans had anticipated and
Thorpe didn't get that job donevery successfully.
He did do a few bridges, a fewthings, but it was tough.
Well, anyway, we didn't knowthat, we didn't have
communication with Thorpe fromthe choir, but he was going.
(38:27):
So I went to the general staffwho I was working with and asked
them what the rules were.
Regulations, and they said thatit's every man for himself.
But they advised me, knowingthe Philippines as well as they
did, to stay with the groupbecause there would be safety in
numbers and, according toGeneva conference, with the
treaties, with the amount of30,000 Americans we would be
(38:51):
traded suddenly and maybe begiven the pretty good treatment
the Americans would be returningwithin six, eight months and
it'd be the best.
But if I escaped, then I was.
If I was captured, I'd bekilled and subject to be killed
because that's the rules of thegame.
So they said first of all, themounds are too treacherous and
(39:16):
we'll never make it.
And I said well, andersonseemed to think he can.
How about me do it?
Try it.
But if you want to try a sorrowof the arts, that's okay.
According to the rules of theorder, anybody that escapes.
Why?
That's what they're eating.
That's part of it too.
(39:37):
The Japanese, they weresignatories to the Geneva
Convention.
Are you kidding?
They didn't have think about it?
Oh, when they were captured,not when they captured.
You see, the thing you have tounderstand that we didn't know
was that the Japanese and theKoreans who they had sent into
(39:58):
the Philippines were prettyrough, uneducated people and
they thought that anybody thatsurrendered was a coward and
that you die rather thansurrender.
You're an emperor, you do notsurrender, and anyone that
surrendered is absolutelynothing, he's dirt and he should
(40:21):
be punished or should bepenalized.
The results of that are thatthey treated the Americans that
way, but the Americans didn'tknow that at the time.
You were not that knowledgeable.
Anybody was knowledgeable aboutJapanese culture at that time.
Zach Buck, nothing, Uh-huh, weknew absolutely what.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I'm going to cut it back a second.
So the terrible problem wasthat there should have been some
communications relevant toindoctrination and teaching.
They're going to be sent into acell.
(41:02):
You should have some background.
This is a failure, I think, ofthe high command not letting the
troops know the consequences.
It seems incredible to me thatthere wasn't somebody at the
State Department that didn'tknow something about Japanese
culture, that knew that theJapanese felt that anybody who
surrenders is a coward andshould be dealt with harshly.
(41:24):
Forget about the GenevaConvention.
And yet here are these peoplewho are up against hopeless odds
, in some cases the number ofmen who died in prison camps or
in the death march.
They would probably have beenbetter off fighting and taking
some of the Japanese with them,because they weren't going to
make it anyway.
And rather than surrenderingand of course it was just a
(41:45):
hopeless situation you took thebest approach.
But why did you decide that, hey, I'm not going to surrender
with these 30,000.
I'm going to take my chancesout in the jungle?
Do you recall what made youchange your mind or decide to
join the minority rather thanthe majority?
Join the minority rather thanthe majority?
Well, I suppose different menare subject to different thought
(42:11):
processes and I considered itand thought of it being an
adventure and as long as I wasfree, I would have some say over
my destiny, and I didn't thinkthat I knew nothing about the
mountains.
I grew up in New York City orarea, or the metropolitan area
of New York or Harper,connecticut or Harrisburg or
(42:34):
Indianapolis, and I had neverbeen on a camping trip in my
whole life.
You're listening to Risk and Resolve.
And now for your hosts, benConner and Todd Hufford, welcome
back to another episode of theRisk and Resolve pod.
I'm excited, you'll see, I'mhere by myself today Again one
of your co-hosts, ben Conner butI'm excited to announce a
(00:23):
five-part series that we'regoing to start today.
That will be kind ofintermingled over the next month
and a half with our regulartype of episodes, but this
five-part series is reallyspecial to me.
We are going to releaserecordings from my grandfather.
(00:48):
So a little bit about thebackstory of my grandfather.
Obviously or maybe notobviously to some my grandfather
, clay Conner, was the originalfounder of Conner Insurance.
You know we are a thirdgeneration insurance agency in
Indianapolis.
So our firm was started by mygrandfather and my grandfather
(01:10):
has a very interesting story andthat interesting story was life
changing for him, which wascertainly then life changing for
the rest of our family.
Rest of our family and hisexperiences in his personal
(01:32):
journey really is a tangiblefootprint and fingerprints on
our family and within theknitting of our company.
So a little bit of the backstoryof my grandfather.
He actually grew up on the EastCoast.
Story of my grandfather.
He actually grew up on the EastCoast.
He was an only child, went toDuke University and ended up
enlisting to serve in World WarII and he was stationed in the
(01:55):
Philippines and had anincredible war story where he
ended up being missing in actionfor almost 30, over 30 months
in the Philippines, you know,organized a guerrilla army and
survived and came back toAmerica because of his mother
(02:21):
and since he was an only child.
So what we're going to releaseis him recounting his story.
So the context to what you'regoing to listen to is a tape
recording from 1983.
Actually, that is the year thathe ultimately ended up passing
(02:41):
away was in 1983.
So this was months before hepassed away.
He did a recording with DougClanahan of the Indiana
Historical Society and thepurpose of this recording was to
capture or to detail ahistorical account of what he
experienced in the Philippineswhile he was missing in action,
(03:06):
and so they wanted to capturethat war experience.
But they also wanted him todetail just like, who are you
Like?
What was your background beforethis incredible event occurred
in your life?
So, and the reason thatinterview existed was because
the indie star in 1983 wrote anarticle about his story on flag
(03:32):
day, and the reason why is thathe had, uh, more or less the
story of a flag that nevertouched the ground, so flag that
he carried with him through hisexperience, that never touched
the ground and was kind of thathope of like adventure and
survival.
So, anyway, they posted, theywrote about that and published
(03:52):
it on Flag Day.
The Historical Society was likemy goodness, we need to capture
more of this man's account.
And so that's what you're goingto hear over the next five
weeks.
And what I'm also pleased toshare is that we also are going
to have an interview, followingthat five-week series, with the
(04:14):
author of the book Resolve, andI have a copy right here, so a
copy of this book Resolve.
This book is about his warstory, written by Bob Welch.
So we're going to it's going tobe kind of a capstone to this
series we're going to interviewBob Welch, who's an incredible
person in and of himself, sowe're going to tell his story
(04:34):
but just dig into what hisexperience was like in um, in
writing the story of mygrandfather, that that biography
and capturing just who he wasas a person.
So, um, full disclosure.
Uh, the audio on this, again,it's a tape recording from 1983.
So the audio uh isn't thehighest quality, um, but I still
(04:58):
think it's really purposeful umto share this story.
So, um, I'm pleased to sharewith you my grandfather, clay
Connor.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Mr Connor, first of all, thank you for giving me the
opportunity to record thisinterview, and the first
question I have for you is whatis the place and date of your
birth August 31st 1918,Indianapolis, Indiana, All right
and what were the names of yourparents?
My father was Henry Clay Connor, who went by the name of Clay
(05:32):
Connor, and my mother wasMarguerite Dearing, and I was
the only child and I went alsoby the name of Clay Conner, or
rather Clay Conner Jr.
So the community and those whoknow me in business have always
known me as Clay Conner, but Iuse the legal name and have now
(05:58):
in my old age, been using itmore in order to identify me
from my son, Henry Clay ConnorIII.
Okay, what was the occupationof your father?
I assume that your motherdidn't work, you know, outside
the home.
But what did he do?
He was a salesman and wasemployed by the Allison Company
(06:25):
here in Indianapolis in 1926 andbecame their eastern
representative in 1928.
And their primary target wasbanks.
That was the beginning of thefinance business in the American
economy, because personal loanswere not common prior to that
(06:49):
time.
So they manufactured the couponbooks or finance books and then
branched into Jeter Waters andplaces like that.
So I grew up on the East Coastbecause we lived in Clarkburg,
Connecticut, Harrisburg,Pennsylvania, and Irvington in
East Orange, New Jersey.
When did you move away fromIndianapolis?
1928.
(07:10):
1928, when you would be about10 years old, and then moved
around in those areas.
So your education it occurredboth here and then on the East
Coast.
I graduated in Irvington, NewJersey High School in January of
1937.
And my father had a reasonableSouthern heritage decided that
(07:37):
my best interest would be servedby going to a school below the
Mesa Dixon line.
So I went to Duke Universityand was glad for it, Graduated
in the class of 1940, just priorto World War II.
What was your getting back tothe high school in New Jersey?
What was your major there?
(07:57):
In high school my primaryinterest was always history and
economics Very cool.
And then at Duke you alsomajored in those subjects.
In economics I had an A-Bdegree in economics as a major.
I actually had three majors butmy primary interest has always
(08:17):
been economics and history.
Did you take ROTC at Duke, Anykind of military contact prior
to your graduation?
No, none.
I don't believe there was anyROTC at Duke prior to Wolf.
I don't know if there was.
I wasn't aware of it.
(08:37):
I never saw anybody run theirown uniform down there After you
graduated.
Let me refresh my memory Juneof 1940.
June of 40.
June of 1940.
This is naturally prior toPearl Harbor.
Did you get a job right afterthat, or did you look for work?
My father gave me two daysvacation and subsequently
(08:59):
notified me that it was over andthat I had commenced.
Not only had I been tocommencement at Duke, of which
he was very proud, but I wasgoing to commence to work
immediately to relieve him ofall of his years of burden,
although I did work at Duke andenjoyed it.
(09:20):
I'm glad I did.
I went to work for theAliceville Coupon Company in
Indianapolis as a pressman.
What's it been?
What was a pressman?
Somebody who actually printsthe coupons?
Yes, I was running a pressgroup.
I didn't do a very good job.
I almost killed myself.
I had absolutely no mechanicalability or talent.
(09:41):
I was too interested in all thethings that were going on in
business to deal with theslowness of the mundane
operation of the printing pressgrinding out thousands of pieces
of paper.
But the war also was coming onand I was very fascinated by
(10:01):
things that were happening inEurope.
So I left there on my own andwent back to the East Coast One
day would this be, excuse me, mrPowell?
Well, that would be probablySeptember 1st of September,
right after my birthday 40.
And tried to enlist, believe itor not, in the Marines Navy Air
(10:25):
Force, army Air Force.
But yeah, there was a waitinglist for those schools.
In those days I didn't realizethat yes, there was, and they
had what they called cadet army.
They were officers training incadet schools and so I finally
(10:48):
was accepted, but at a futuredate.
I was not actually on the listuntil about the second or third
school of communications which Iwent to in January of 41.
What would that be located?
Scottfield, illinois, oh,scottfield, that's in southern
(11:09):
Illinois, or outside, very closeto East St Louis.
East St Louis Okay, that'd bewest of Scottfield.
It's Belleville, belleville,okay.
Well, anyway, in the interimperiod I had to do something.
In the interim period I had todo something.
So I went to work as a fullerbrush man in the daytime, going
(11:29):
door to door through Montclair,which is a very fashionable
large mansion type of townsuburb of Moorick In New Jersey,
and then at night I worked withArthur Murray as a dance
instructor.
(11:50):
So I had a lot going and had awonderful time and enjoyed my
days.
I got up at six and went to bedprobably at one in the morning
and I was able to buy a new carand do a lot of things and it
was really a fun time.
I enjoyed every minute of itand I was looking forward to
(12:11):
getting in the service becauseall my friends had volunteered
or were doing the same thing Allover the country.
The graduates at Duke were allkind of getting in there and I
was looking forward to theexperience.
Did you have contact with yourfriends during this interim
period, before you actually gotinto the service and they were
telling you you know, I'mgetting into the service, how
(12:32):
about you?
Indirectly, I don't think we sitout and discuss the
consequences of it, the problemsinvolved, nor did we foresee
the magnitude of the involvementof the United States.
But it was kind of anunderlying thing that was moving
(12:55):
in the areas of those youngpeople, most of whom are very
patriotic, basicallyconservative, basically
conservative, uh and uh, I wouldsay 90 percent of the, the
young americans and collegegraduates in those days, were
thinking in terms of a patrioticeffort.
Oh, my friends were, yes, I.
(13:16):
So it's a different eracompletely.
And uh, I suppose there was acertain would you consider it
like a naivety about you.
You know the horrors of war.
There's a generation thathadn't really been exposed to it
.
I think Black Knight hadsomething to do with it.
World War I is kind of a distantmemory and this is a younger
generation who are reallyenthusiastic about I don't know
(13:37):
saving the world from democracy.
Is that the reading you got atthe time or the way you felt
yourself, right?
Well, old men don't fight wars,right, that's true.
Old men dream dreams, as theysay, and young men fight wars.
Yeah, but excuse me, I don'tthink that as a young man, you
(14:05):
have the fear of what can happen, nor do you have the reality of
death not you and or theproblems of being cut off or
isolated, or fever, compelled byfever, to be left to die or
(14:30):
injured.
I don't think you think of allthose things.
I think you think more in termsof my obligation to my country,
especially with the backgroundand the training and the
heritage they went through inthose days.
So when you finally went intothis cadet program, this would
be about June of 41?
.
Well, the cadet program?
(14:54):
No, I didn't go until January.
I think I raised my hand andwas in some time in mid-December
.
I was actually inducted inNewark on my papers.
In fact, we've got some ordershere.
I'll run them off for you.
I think I've got those ordersand I don't know the exact date,
but I think it was aroundJanuary the 7th or something
(15:15):
that I was to report to ScottField.
But it's right in that area.
Okay, what was the length ofyour training there at Scott
Field?
What was the length of yourtraining there at Scott Field, I
was assigned in July it seemsto me to Savannah Army Air Base,
(15:37):
to the 27th Army Group, whichis tactical unit.
I could have been assigned, Icould have taken my choices.
I could have been assigned, Icould have taken my choices.
You're standing in, your classgives you a choice of where you
can go to, whether you go to atraining base or you go to a
(15:59):
tactical unit.
And I was kind of intriguedwith that picking up a fighter
type right, bombing low, andit's a light bomb clip.
It was a brand new outfit.
It had been uh, organized fromthe third bomb down in barksdale
, louisiana, and signed to thensavannah army air base, which
then become later became, afterall, after the war started, I
(16:20):
guess on the front of field andit's now a subdivision.
You know, that's, that's theirway.
We stopped from Tybee Beachthere outside of Savannah.
I was assigned, I chose thatand that would be what most of
the guys in the lower part ofthe class would get, because
that would not be the units thatwould be assigned overseas.
(16:42):
Any dummy would know, if they'dsit down and think about it,
that you're picking an outfitthat's going to be first on the
line.
Well, I never thought aboutthat and besides, I thought
that'd be interesting if it wastrue.
And as a result, the 27 bottomis the first, the first air
group, army air group to ever besent overseas in the history of
(17:05):
the United States as a bombgroup.
They were the first one.
Prior to that time, the bombgroups that were overseas were
sent as squadrons and made agroup overseas, such as Pickham
Field or Clark Field.
Those groups came together fromsquadrons that were sent over,
but we were sent over as an airgroup.
(17:26):
How many planes?
1,700 men, 1,700 men.
We weren't fully staffed, butwe were 1,700 men and I was a
second lieutenant in this and agroup communications officer of
the 27th Barrow.
And we left San Francisco inNovember and got to the
(17:51):
Philippines about three weekslater, which is the latter part
of November, and of course wewere bombed on December the 8th
without any warning.
We knew that Pearl had been hita few hours earlier, but the
few hours was only, as the suntravels, because the Japanese
hit us at noon when they hitthem at six and of course the
(18:12):
sun west of Pearl does not comeup for about seven hours.
Six hours, then you've got theinternational date line.
So the 7th of December in Pearlwas the 8th of December in
Manila.
So we were actually hit withinhours Well, almost close to
being simultaneous of Decemberand Pearl was the 8th of
December in Manila, so we wereactually hit within an hour Well
, almost close to beingsimultaneous.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Well, within hours.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
The sun and the noon because of the flight out of
Formosa to Hiddens.
Where they hit.
They struck Pearl from aircraftcarriers, they struck us from
Formosa, so they had the flighttime.
So it was almost like asynchronized.
Oh yeah, I mean it wassynchronized.
(18:54):
In other words, one was plannedto hit Pearl you hear all about
the big planning and all that.
Well, they also planned to hitManila at the same time.
We just briefly touched on theactual training which was at
Skyfield, but I want to talkjust a little bit about the, the
training there, and then inrelationship to, uh, the
japanese attack, uh, could yougo into some a little bit of
(19:16):
detail about the kind oftraining you got at scott field
and do you think that thatadequately prepared you for what
the japanese did in thephilippines?
I mean, on the on the 8th ofdecember just Now?
This sounds like a loadedquestion.
No, that's ridiculous.
I was supposed to be a groupcommunications officer with
(19:45):
people in which I basically likepeople and had a lot of friends
and made friends quickly.
I would have been thelaughingstock of the group.
I was supposed to learn fromJanuary to July how to put a
transmitter.
They don't have transceivers,they have transmitters and
(20:07):
receivers, helicrafters and 5KW.
I didn't know one tube fromanother.
It was all tubes in those days.
Everyone they saw on stage andI didn't know one tube from
another.
I was so bad and I was supposedto be able to knock out CW 10
words a minute or 15 words aminute.
(20:29):
I couldn't do it.
I don't know how I even gotthrough the school.
Now that wasn't because I guessI was stupid.
If I graduated from college Ishould have been able to learn
all that.
But I told you earlier I wasnot really mechanically minded.
How in the world I ever gotinto that mess, I don't know.
But I had some wonderful,tremendously talented, brilliant
(20:56):
, in fact absolutely brilliant,well-experienced communications
people who could build atransmitter and receiver with
raw material.
Oh crap, I mean.
We on Batan had some of thefinest tenors you ever saw,
creative talent, and I hadtalent in other areas and put it
to use.
I was probably the bestscavenger on batan.
(21:19):
Our unit did not go home, noton batan, believe it or not.
You know they talk about thestarvation and all that.
I know how to get the food andthat was great.
That's very nice.
But if you say, let's put itthis way, I wound up in the
guerrilla force, leadingguerrilla, and was asked to
(21:41):
train after the war by the Army.
So they knew I knew somethingabout guerrilla tactics.
Right?
Do you know that in my entirearmy career prior to batan, I
had never fired a 45, I hadnever fired a browning automatic
?
Right, we had springfield oldthrees and infields.
Now you know what kind of guns?
Yeah, we ran, we had that earlyone, you know, or like.
(22:03):
Yeah, but they, what are they?
Uh, I can't even think of theNorm 16s and stuff.
Right, golly, do you ever fireda with a lot of old ammunition?
I'll bet too.
So I read someplace that accountthat appeared on NBC that maybe
(22:23):
one out of five or ten whatever, I don't know what the ratio
was would fire, and then therest were duds.
I didn't In an artillery shell,but you didn't, not in
guerrilla warfare.
I didn't have that problem.
Fortunately, whatever ammo Icame into worked.
Fortunately, because the onlything we used our ammo for,
(22:45):
because of the limitations of it, was a defense to escape.
Now, when we went in tointimidate and capture or get or
steal whatever you want to putit in a war, I don't think you
can steal anything from theenemy.
But that was the general tenure, because it was an occupied
country with another government,so we were like a bandals steel
(23:06):
.
But in any event, when we wentin we didn't fire one in, we
went in to do a job and fired toget out.
See, that's, that's after theoccupation, oh yeah, of japan.
Yeah, now let's put your yourinitial question was I
adequately trained?
I never, i't.
(23:27):
I couldn't operate a radio, Icouldn't transmit or receive
anything CW to intelligent,because those birds were
operating with all this highfrequency just fast and they and
you wouldn't believe how theycould transcribe.
Did you get any message trafficin about?
You know, there's this.
We had to speak on everything,john Tolan, saying that there
was messages coming in thewashington new prior to the
(23:49):
actual attack.
They'd broken the purple code,but messages weren't getting out
into the field in hawaii, theyweren't getting out into, uh,
the philippines.
You think that is indeed thecase.
You didn't get any prior warning, or or was there just rumors
about the japanese, possiblejapanese attack prior to the
attack on manila and prior toPearl Harbor, you know,
approximately the same day?
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
(24:12):
We were not even functioning.
Prior to the attack, we werejust stationed.
We were waiting for aircraft.
Oh, you didn't even haveaircraft.
Our airplanes were on anothership on the legs, which was a
freighter, and when the bombswere dropped they were traveling
at a lower rate of speed and,uh like, they discovered during
(24:35):
the trip that they forgot to putany of the coolant in than the
engines, so they couldn't flythem anyway.
So they took them to australia.
Wait, we're an air group.
That never existed.
You can.
So you said, and I was trainedin communications and other way.
Don't know anything about that.
I never had fired a gun and I'mgoing to Bataan to defend this
Bataan, which is a total defense.
(24:56):
So I was put in charge of aspecial communication group and
what I did was find all of thetown was fined.
All of the time.
I had carte blanche as a secondlieutenant by command of
General Wing and General Aiken.
General Wing, you ever heard ofToby Wing?
She was a movie star prior toWorld War II.
(25:18):
Her father was General Wing.
He was there.
Oh, yes, I recall that TobyWing, it's her father.
It's W-I-N-K, is it?
I don't know.
Maybe Wink it's her father.
It's W-I-N-K, is it?
I don't know, maybe Wink, Idon't really know.
Okay, anyway, general Lincolnand General Wink and General
King, they all liked me so theythought I could get this group
together.
So I put this Fifth InterceptGroup communication together and
(25:42):
I became the centerheadquarters for the group area.
A general command communication.
Wow, very impressive.
Did you get message trafficthen from Washington after this
was?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
done, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
We got traffic.
Well, we didn't get it directfrom Washington, we got it from
Del Monte, which was Mindanao,which was permanent in Australia
.
We got it from China.
We picked up some informationfrom China.
We picked up some from Mindanao, we picked up some from
Australia then, and now wepicked up some from Australia,
depends on the way things aregoing.
Did you see MacArthur at thistime, or at all?
(26:14):
Just twice?
Just twice, because it's a veryconfusing time, and probably
twice.
What kind of hours did you work?
You were working.
You know.
Probably they were workinghours.
Yeah, you're just living hours.
You're talking about before itstarted.
Oh, there was no working hours,everybody was surviving.
Yeah, you're surviving.
If you've got a million of theenemy coming in to occupy an
(26:36):
island and you're there in auniform that's the wrong color.
Nobody, there's no working,it's surviving, everything's
surviving.
So you moved out of Manila outto Bataan almost immediately
after then the attack on the 8thof December I'm trying to
(26:58):
establish some idea of a timeframe, you know like about a
week or whatever.
We set up a general area ofinformation at what was then
called Nielsen Field, which wasI became became the CEO.
I'd recently had a book, aguidebook where one of my
friends was that because he madethe CEO of Nielsen Field and
all this time I thought I wasthe CEO of Nielsen Field and I
(27:21):
don't know.
He probably was.
I'm going to see him, I thinkat a reunion.
I'm going to ask him.
And he was supposed to be.
According to him, he was the CO, but I got the orders from I
can't think of the general'sname.
He was out of the Army AirForce or something like that.
Anyway, arnold, no, no, anyway,he was in this book.
(27:46):
He was the CO.
Well, I must have been the headof communications at that.
But all this time, all theseyears, I thought I was the CEO
of the Associated.
Where's that located?
Right, isn't it?
It was old.
It's where McCotty is, a greatbig development of shopping and
all that.
This is the place where theplanes that they were supposed
(28:07):
to bring in, what was thevintage?
Or the 827 that they weresupposed to bring, boy oh boy,
they were already in for justabout everything at that time,
just scissor and paste.
What about morale after PearlHarbor, which is well, excellent
(28:27):
, it was very good, very good, Ithought when they nobody
figured we were going to loseanything or got a desperate and
we just were scurrying aroundthe side of what we were going
to do and we were going todefend Manila.
So we set up a warning and weset up this communications, this
communications and trying toget the planes in and out.
We were going to get a fewplanes off the ground because
(28:48):
the jets blown down most of ourplanes the first day and the
rest of them went to Australia.
So we had very little limitedair force left and so our
primary objective was to try todetermine what we're up against.
And I didn't even know we weretrying to determine what we're
up against.
The generals will figure thatout.
(29:09):
I just did what I was told todo and I said that's the hours
of sergeant.
Unless I was, you can't thinkof what the word I was, because
the attendant doesn't knowsergeant's using.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, anyway, I was dealingwith the sergeants.
They were giving me a dorm, butI was dealing with the
sergeants.
They were giving me a storm,but it was a madhouse.
(29:31):
But it's a good point that youmade about the level of morale.
I think the common conventionis that you always hear, and of
course they're talking aboutafter the defeat, but the fact
that, my gosh, they held out forfive months on Count Corregidor
and they held out for fourmonths if you count, uh, baton,
before a file on april, I guessit was the night of the day,
(29:52):
yeah, you wouldn't forget pubday and then bay six for 1942,
for corregidor, but the fact wasthat the morale level was high
and, uh, I heard an oldexpression was ignorance is
bliss.
Do you think the fact that youdidn't know your situation with
respect to Washington?
They said on this documentarythat help was not going to be
coming on the way, but the menthere didn't know it.
(30:13):
If you had known that there wasno help going to be on the way,
could you have held out thatlong?
There was always that hope toreally hold you together that
the reinforcements, the cavalry,was going to come in at the
last minute, like in the movies,and save you.
Did you even think?
Or was it just a case of oneday to the next and you never
really even thought about it?
Like, we're going to hold thisthing, no matter how long it
(30:34):
takes.
Well, the Bible said it as apoint in the mail was to die.
To them the judgment.
Well, he may know he's going todie, but he doesn't look like
it and we're not afraid all thetime.
Does he Every day's hope, everyday's hope?
Well, the fact is, the fact ofthe matter is that very few
(30:55):
people seem to remember thatPresident Roosevelt got on radio
again when certain things hadhappened in the tent and
(31:22):
MacArthur had been ordered inApril.
To excuse me, in March 3rd, 2ndor I had real good contact and
was immediately told if you werepresident of the United States
and my rationale was excellentand you had a man who really
knew the orange, would you orderhim out in order that he could
(31:46):
regroup and come back, or wouldyou let him die on the Monday?
I said I'd order him out.
He says then, do you think?
And all the scuttle was,macarthur escapes and we're left
behind, see.
And I said I think I wouldorder him out, I'd want to find
a man out of there.
And, of course, how are yougoing to get a bunch of them?
I said I'm going to get themout.
(32:07):
I said I'm going to put people.
But the president of the UnitedStates got on the radio and I
heard it.
I heard it coming out ofHonolulu that in asking the
question of botany, he saidthey're expendable.
That was President Roosevelt'swords, said they were expendable
(32:27):
.
That was President Roosevelt'swords, that they are expendable.
Now, when you hear thePresident of the United States
say they are expendable, that'sa write-off.
But if you're not there andyou're not one of the 30,000 men
and you're not one of the30,000 of the men's parents or
brothers and sisters, they'reexpendable.
(32:49):
You go to the next page, youread the next obituary, but when
it is you who they say, youstop and think what does that
mean?
Is that propaganda?
That's propaganda, couldn't beTrue.
Is that propaganda?
That's propaganda, couldn't betrue.
The President of the UnitedStates, a woman, saying you're
(33:09):
appointed, wants to die, you see.
So there's a disbelief aboutthis.
There's just future, not me,right?
You follow Right.
So, follow Right.
So it was a startling thing andit was a reality.
(33:30):
But you took the bull by thehorns and you determined to
survive.
And if you're determined tosurvive, you're going to use
every feasible new tact,technique and available method
to do just that.
(33:51):
You survived.
And that's what we did.
For four minutes, for fourmonths.
You did that.
When did you actually escapefrom Bataan?
Is it towards the end or was itafter the actual Bataan on
April 9th, your escape tookplace.
In other words, there's a manthat owns a radio station down
(34:14):
in the I guess it's Montgomeryor Seattle.
It's called Tuscaloosa, alabama.
I'm Ednock, his name's BertBank, he was a captain at the
time and he's still alive.
And Bert was on the front lineand he saw the Japanese breaking
through and he had a portableradio, because and a radio, they
(34:39):
were portable, and he was onthere warning that the japanese
had broken through the trouble,they were coming south and that
they were, uh, killing everybodyin the way.
Evil though they order, a lotof filipinos were carrying white
flags and so on.
(34:59):
Big men put down their arms.
They were still strengtheningand killing everybody along the
roadside, Moving the tanks andthe zigzag pattern killed people
on both sides of the road.
Get out of the way.
This is Burt Bank.
The Japanese are both the same.
They kept repeating it.
He's in my house at 27 Bond,but he was stationed up there
and I was stationed incommunications, so you were
(35:23):
further down the peninsula, downtowards the Corregidor area.
I was in what's called LittleBaggiel Little Baggiel, okay and
the death march started atMarvina, all the way up here to
San Fermin was where they putthem on the trunks.
They took them up to O'Donnell,which is right here, but Iowa
Station, little Baggiel, wasright here and the Japanese
(35:43):
broke right through here andwent scattered from like this
way, and they were coming downthese main roads to clear out.
Well, the Americans and theFilipinos were all up on the
sides of the mugs and bikes onthe main road and so forth.
We were in Old Baggio at thecommunication center, okay and
so and so I realized that thingswere in pretty bad shape.
(36:06):
So I talked to general staffand we were getting ready to.
We immediately sent thedemolition squads out to blow up
our ammunition dumps, which wewere right in the middle of the
ammunition dumps.
So for the next 24 hours thatplace was unbelievable.
Addition, and so the next 24hours that place was
unbelievable.
We had all kinds of mortars andheavy shells and everything.
(36:30):
It blew out every tree in thearea.
It was unbelievable.
We were all in shelters for atleast during the hours while
this thing was going on, justblowing all the tension,
struggling.
It took 20 hours, plus to itwas on trial.
It was absolutely unbelievable.
Well, anyway, we got a lot doneand of course nobody came in
(36:54):
there.
Lord, nobody was coming in orgoing out.
It was impossible.
Went on all night and all thenext day.
So the next day, so the next day, a guy by the name of Anderson
Captain Anderson, who had beento the Philippines prior to
World War II was on an airlineout of Manila and right to a
Filipino bureau Was LieutenantLapham.
(37:19):
On a few others, six of themwere coming through from another
area and said if you'd like togo over with us, we're going to
try to contact Colonel Thorpe,who was commissioned by General
McArthur to escape in ColonelJail from this area, went up
through here and set up a barrelof war with Brian at Wolfsport
(37:43):
and he was supposed to beoperating on the backside of the
right at Wolfsburg and he wassupposed to be operating on the
back side of the Japanese fromWolfsburg and gathering help
from the Filipinos, strength andunifying.
So that was a rallying pointthen for the Filipinos.
Some of their soldiers and suchthe Japanese were a lot
(38:04):
stronger force than theAmericans had anticipated and
Thorpe didn't get that job donevery successfully.
He did do a few bridges, a fewthings, but it was tough.
Well, anyway, we didn't knowthat, we didn't have
communication with Thorpe fromthe choir, but he was going.
(38:27):
So I went to the general staffwho I was working with and asked
them what the rules were.
Regulations, and they said thatit's every man for himself.
But they advised me, knowingthe Philippines as well as they
did, to stay with the groupbecause there would be safety in
numbers and, according toGeneva conference, with the
treaties, with the amount of30,000 Americans we would be
(38:51):
traded suddenly and maybe begiven the pretty good treatment
the Americans would be returningwithin six, eight months and
it'd be the best.
But if I escaped, then I was.
If I was captured, I'd bekilled and subject to be killed
because that's the rules of thegame.
So they said first of all, themounds are too treacherous and
(39:16):
we'll never make it.
And I said well, andersonseemed to think he can.
How about me do it?
Try it.
But if you want to try a sorrowof the arts, that's okay.
According to the rules of theorder, anybody that escapes.
Why?
That's what they're eating.
That's part of it too.
(39:37):
The Japanese, they weresignatories to the Geneva
Convention.
Are you kidding?
They didn't have think about it?
Oh, when they were captured,not when they captured.
You see, the thing you have tounderstand that we didn't know
was that the Japanese and theKoreans who they had sent into
(39:58):
the Philippines were prettyrough, uneducated people and
they thought that anybody thatsurrendered was a coward and
that you die rather thansurrender.
You're an emperor, you do notsurrender, and anyone that
surrendered is absolutelynothing, he's dirt and he should
(40:21):
be punished or should bepenalized.
The results of that are thatthey treated the Americans that
way, but the Americans didn'tknow that at the time.
You were not that knowledgeable.
Anybody was knowledgeable aboutJapanese culture at that time.
Zach Buck, nothing, Uh-huh, weknew absolutely what.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I'm going to cut it back a second.
So the terrible problem wasthat there should have been some
communications relevant toindoctrination and teaching.
They're going to be sent into acell.
(41:02):
You should have some background.
This is a failure, I think, ofthe high command not letting the
troops know the consequences.
It seems incredible to me thatthere wasn't somebody at the
State Department that didn'tknow something about Japanese
culture, that knew that theJapanese felt that anybody who
surrenders is a coward andshould be dealt with harshly.
(41:24):
Forget about the GenevaConvention.
And yet here are these peoplewho are up against hopeless odds
, in some cases the number ofmen who died in prison camps or
in the death march.
They would probably have beenbetter off fighting and taking
some of the Japanese with them,because they weren't going to
make it anyway.
And rather than surrenderingand of course it was just a
(41:45):
hopeless situation you took thebest approach.
But why did you decide that, hey, I'm not going to surrender
with these 30,000.
I'm going to take my chancesout in the jungle?
Do you recall what made youchange your mind or decide to
join the minority rather thanthe majority?
Join the minority rather thanthe majority?
Well, I suppose different menare subject to different thought
(42:11):
processes and I considered itand thought of it being an
adventure and as long as I wasfree, I would have some say over
my destiny, and I didn't thinkthat I knew nothing about the
mountains.
I grew up in New York City orarea, or the metropolitan area
of New York or Harper,connecticut or Harrisburg or
(42:34):
Indianapolis, and I had neverbeen on a camping trip in my
whole life.
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