June 4, 2025 • 14 mins
The Marshall Allen Project preserves the legacy of investigative healthcare reporter Marshall Allen through an AI clone trained with his expertise to help Americans navigate medical debt. Founded by his widow after his sudden passing, the nonprofit organization aims to give 100 million Americans struggling with healthcare costs the tools to make better decisions and fight unfair billing practices.
• Marshall Allen spent 18 years investigating healthcare from the patient perspective before his death in May
• The MAC (Marshall Allen Clone) contains knowledge from 475 articles, books, podcasts and speaking notes
• One in six Americans has medical debt in collections, making healthcare costs their #1 financial concern
• The AI tool provides practical guidance on negotiating bills, finding fair pricing, and writing appeals
• Available in 115 languages to serve non-English speaking communities
• Victory Stories newsletter shares real examples of people who successfully fought medical bills
• Accredited educational curriculum available for brokers (NABIP) and HR professionals (SHRM)
• In 106 documented cases, Marshall helped individuals save an average of $15,000 each
• The foundation aims to save Americans over $10 million in its first year
Visit the Marshall Allen Project website to access the MAC and learn how to fight unfair medical bills and win.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Risk and Resolve.
And now for your hosts, benConner and Todd Hufford.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you, and grateful to BenConner for the opportunity to
share with you all today.
My late husband, marshall Allen, passed away in May very
suddenly from a heart attack.
(00:21):
Marshall was an investigativehealthcare reporter for the last
18 years of his career.
His focus when he was writing astory was to look at healthcare
from the perspective of thepatient.
He wanted to help peopleunderstand and advocate for
themselves in all of theirhealthcare encounters.
The way that our system worksnow is that when someone goes to
(00:41):
the doctor, they try and findsomebody first in network.
They, you know you go to thedoctor.
They try and find somebodyfirst in network they, you know.
You go to the doctor, youschedule the needed appointment,
you come home and then you getthe bill in the mail.
Generally in the past you wouldlook over the bill, you would
make sure that it was an amountyou could afford and you would
send in the payment.
But now the out-of-pocket costsare increasing, the coverage is
(01:04):
limited and the price of healthcare is soaring.
This leads us to our currentreality we have 100 million
Americans with medical debt.
One in six Americans hasmedical debt in collections.
Americans now say that payingfor health care is their number
one financial concern.
Health care is their number onefinancial concern.
(01:27):
Marshall set out to investigatethe high cost of health care and
he uncovered many backdoordeals and agreements that are
not in the patient's bestinterest.
He called for transparency in asystem that operates by keeping
things complicated and opaquefor the consumer.
He wrote about solutions tohelp people learn what their
options were, what questionsthey can ask to get the help
that they need and whatresources are available to help
(01:50):
them navigate.
In 2021, he published his bookNever Pay the First Bill and
Other Ways to Fight theHealthcare System and Win.
He loved the last part of thatrather long title and win.
People can be empowered withinformation and tools so that
they don't feel powerless.
They can access the informationto help them make informed
(02:11):
decisions and advocate forthemselves and their families
against the high cost of care.
This education is aimed at theconsumer, the individual.
Until the individual goes tothe doctor or hospital, until
they know what their rights areand where to get the information
they need to make those kind ofinformed decisions, they will
continue to be victimized by thesystem.
(02:34):
About a month before Marshallpassed away, he found an AI
program where he could clonehimself, not on a cellular level
, but just in his healthcarebrain.
He was able to download hisentire healthcare knowledge into
the clone.
He uploaded 475 articles of hisbook, his podcast, his speaking
(02:55):
notes.
Anything that he hadcontributed to healthcare and
healthcare education wasprogrammed into the clone.
Then he trained it and workedwith it to answer specific
questions and responses.
It includes outside links toresources and websites where you
can look up fair pricing, whereyou can get the best deals on
(03:15):
your prescription drugs.
It links to YouTube videos andeven pages in his book and other
helpful tools.
He completed the training tooland shared it with a couple of
friends who were excited aboutusing the potential of AI to
help people navigate healthcare,and then he passed away.
In the weeks following his death, I was overwhelmed with the
outpouring of people that weresharing stories and memories of
(03:38):
Marshall and what his work meantto them.
The one message I heard morethan anything else was we need
to keep his legacy going.
Marshall was an influentialvoice in health care.
People didn't want his work tofade away because it's still
valuable and meaningful.
So I decided in August tocreate the Marshall Allen
Project.
It's a nonprofit foundationthat's mission is to help the
(04:04):
100 million Americans who arestruggling with medical debt and
to give them the tools and theknowledge to make better
decisions for themselves andtheir families.
So I'd like you to introduce youto the MAC.
The MAC stands for MarshallAllen Clone.
The MAC offers expert guidancefor healthcare navigation using
Marshall's proven methodologiesfor healthcare navigation using
(04:27):
Marshall's proven methodologies.
I'm just going to go ahead soyou can scan the QR code and it
will take you directly to theMarshall Allen Project website.
Once you have it scanned andyou have the website loaded, you
can go to the share button onthe bottom.
It's like the little box withthe arrow pointing up.
If you click on the sharebutton and then scroll down a
little bit, it takes you tosomething that says add to home
(04:50):
screen and then, when you add itto the home screen, it says add
at the top and then it willshow up on your phone.
It looks like an app.
It's actually a bookmark butwhat it does is it takes you
directly to the Marshall Allenclone.
So I'd like to do a demo, reallyquick of the clone so you can
kind of see how it functions.
(05:11):
So this is.
You can see it on your phonesand I'll show it here from my
computer.
This is how the map works.
It's very simple.
That's very straightforward.
There's a list of suggestedquestions that you can see below
how do I negotiate and lower mymedical bills?
What should I ask a medicalprovider?
Why should I ask a medicalprovider for the cash price?
(05:33):
And there's a variety ofquestions.
You can see them there.
So the Mac also has thecapacity to you can do a phone
call.
Marshall programmed his voiceinto the Mac and so you do a
phone call and it talks to you.
I'm going to do the text optionbecause otherwise it would pick
up everything that I'm sitting.
(05:53):
But if you do the text option,if you can, just you can click
on any of these questions.
I'm just going to click on thefirst one how do I negotiate and
lower my medical bill?
All right, so what it shows youhere.
It gives you a five-stepprocess.
Number one request an itemizedbill with billing codes.
Number two check for errors.
(06:15):
Number three ask if the bill isnegotiable.
Four offer a cash payment.
Five negotiate based onMedicare rates Six be persistent
.
You can also see these littlelinks.
So there's links here to likeBilly the Try Billy app.
There's links to afairhealthconsumerorg Healthcare
(06:37):
Blue Book.
Then there's also notes.
Well, normally it links to likea YouTube video or another page
where Marshall has done aspeech or a conversation about
this particular issue.
So this is his curatedinformation.
It's not scraped off of Google.
It is 100% Marshall.
(06:59):
It's 100% what he talked aboutand what he spoke about and it's
a really, really useful tool tohelp people navigate what
they're going through.
So it's very practical in thatregard.
If you have an employer, if youare an employer who has a large
(07:20):
group of non-English speakingemployees, this is a really
useful tool.
People who live in the countrywho aren't native English
speakers it's hard enough for usto navigate health care Imagine
if you didn't speak Englishfluently.
So this is a tool that canspeak in their native tongue 115
(07:44):
, I think that covers the vastmajority and so that they can
get the help that they need toanswer the questions that they
have.
The Marshall Allen Project isthe foundation that's built on
his knowledge of the healthcaresystem and the tools that he
created to help people navigate.
He wanted to give people accessto information so that they can
make an informed decision,particularly when it comes to
the cost of care.
(08:04):
The MAC does not include anymedical advice or information or
suggestions.
This is primarily a billing andnavigational tool.
In addition to the MAC,marshall also wrote a newsletter
that is published on throughSubstack and it chronicled
victory stories.
So whenever Marshall went to aconference or spoke, or even in
(08:27):
his book, he actually put hispersonal email and said if
anyone has a bill or you know,an insurance claim denial or
anything that they're trying tohelp email him and then he would
help them figure out the billand how to how to get, how to
fight it.
So he from all of thoseconversations then he created
(08:49):
victory stories and the victorystories were stories that people
who had used Marshall's tacticsand his tools to help fight a
bill or a claim denial and hecame out victorious.
That's the victory stories.
Marshall would interview theperson.
He would write the storiesoutlining the problems and how
they were overcome with actionsteps.
Since Marshall passed away,over 90 people have gone onto
(09:11):
his website and written victorystories of you know, victories
that they had received just fromusing his information and his
tactics.
So we are now relaunching hisSubstack with a guest writer,
andrew Gordon, who is takingthose victory stories,
interviewing those people andgiving us a written guideline as
(09:35):
to how to navigate thosesituations if you happen to be
in one of those situationsyourself.
They are real live examples,they're easy to understand and
they're actionable.
We also have a video curriculumthat Marshall created in 2023.
It's a curriculum of 16 videos,approximately five minutes
apiece, that instruct and equippeople with knowledge of what's
(09:59):
really going on in ourhealthcare system the kind of
under looking under the rock andseeing what are some of the
hidden deals and ways thatpeople are getting taken
advantage of in our healthcaresystem.
So they also.
The curriculum is alsoaccredited with NABIP.
So if you're a broker who needscontinuing education credit,
you can take this curriculumAlso.
(10:21):
It is accredited through SHRMand so if you are in HR and you
also need continuing education,this video curriculum is
available for that as well.
The project is we're launchinga licensing program and we have
broker licenses and we haveenterprise licenses available
and the licensing gives youaccess to all of this
(10:43):
information.
So when you have a broker or anenterprise license, you have
access to the healthcareliteracy curriculum.
You have access to the Substackand you have access to the Mac
and we can collect victorystories from people who are
using the Mac that we're goingto be able to continue writing
(11:04):
in the newsletter.
The Mac is always being updatedwith current information.
We're constantly adding newsources and new information to
help people be navigating this.
As we've heard all morning, aiis teachable and it's constantly
learning.
If you get on there and you'reasking it questions, it will
remember your conversation.
(11:24):
If you talk to it, it will sendyou a transcript in your email
of everything that you'vediscussed.
And if you go back time andtime again, it will also say you
know, if you've had a questionabout something and you'll go
back and you say, okay, I didthis and this and that.
Then the Mac will say, okay,here's the next step, this is
what we can do next.
(11:44):
It will often end theconversation with a question as
to you know, do you know what todo now?
Is there anything I can helpyou with?
It will.
The MAC will write an email foryou.
It will write an insurance,like if you got denied for
coverage.
It will write an appeal letterfor you.
It is a really practical tool.
(12:05):
I've had patient advocates whoare working and on the phone
with a patient who are typinginto the Mac, asking it
questions, as they're talking toan insurance company, all at
the same time.
It's an immediate, one-on-oneinteraction that is very
specific to you and to whereyour needs are.
And then, finally, we are inprocess and gathering an army of
(12:30):
patient advocates who aretrained in Marshall's
methodology, who understood thetools that he had to navigate.
So when people utilize the Mac,sometimes, as you all probably
well know, healthcare can getvery complicated and difficult
to navigate so when they use theMAC, they're able to look up
(12:51):
EOBs, to understand CPT codes,to check for fraud or if they've
been upcoded.
There's a lot that you can doas an individual to understand
what's really happening withyour billing.
And if it gets more complicatedthan that, we have patient
advocates that are available,that are funded through the
(13:11):
foundation, who are there tohelp people.
Again, this is primarilybilling and insurance.
It's not for medical help.
But the advocates are there andthat's a service that we're
going to be providing for you.
But the advocates are there andthat's a service that we're
going to be providing for you.
Marshall was passionate abouthelping people.
Sorry, he was passionate abouthelping people who he felt were
(13:31):
being taken advantage of by ourcomplex and convoluted health
care system.
He wanted to empower peoplewith information and tactics
that they need to advocate forthemselves and to win.
When he spoke, he offered hisemail to contact people.
He spent hours talking topeople on the phone for free,
emailing them, counseling them,listening to them, caring for
(13:54):
them.
He truly loved people and hedid it well.
I am working to move his legacyforward by providing this
curated knowledge and expertiseto people who need the guidance
and the support, and navigatingtheir bills through our AI tool,
the Mac, in addition to hisbooks, videos and newsletter.
We went back through the 106cases that Marshall helped
(14:20):
people with individually andtallied up the amount of money
that they saved by talking withhim.
The total came to 1.65 million,so that's an average of over
15,000 per person of savings.
So for those of you who areinterested in the ROI with this
tool, here's one statistic.
(14:41):
We're hoping, in the first yearof the Marshall Allen Project,
to save over $10 million andjust put a small dent in the 100
million Americans who arefacing medical debt today.
Thank you, thanks for tuning into Risk and Resolve.
See you next time.
You're listening to Risk and Resolve.
And now for your hosts, benConner and Todd Hufford.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you, and grateful to BenConner for the opportunity to
share with you all today.
My late husband, marshall Allen, passed away in May very
suddenly from a heart attack.
(00:21):
Marshall was an investigativehealthcare reporter for the last
18 years of his career.
His focus when he was writing astory was to look at healthcare
from the perspective of thepatient.
He wanted to help peopleunderstand and advocate for
themselves in all of theirhealthcare encounters.
The way that our system worksnow is that when someone goes to
(00:41):
the doctor, they try and findsomebody first in network.
They, you know you go to thedoctor.
They try and find somebodyfirst in network they, you know.
You go to the doctor, youschedule the needed appointment,
you come home and then you getthe bill in the mail.
Generally in the past you wouldlook over the bill, you would
make sure that it was an amountyou could afford and you would
send in the payment.
But now the out-of-pocket costsare increasing, the coverage is
(01:04):
limited and the price of healthcare is soaring.
This leads us to our currentreality we have 100 million
Americans with medical debt.
One in six Americans hasmedical debt in collections.
Americans now say that payingfor health care is their number
one financial concern.
Health care is their number onefinancial concern.
(01:27):
Marshall set out to investigatethe high cost of health care and
he uncovered many backdoordeals and agreements that are
not in the patient's bestinterest.
He called for transparency in asystem that operates by keeping
things complicated and opaquefor the consumer.
He wrote about solutions tohelp people learn what their
options were, what questionsthey can ask to get the help
that they need and whatresources are available to help
(01:50):
them navigate.
In 2021, he published his bookNever Pay the First Bill and
Other Ways to Fight theHealthcare System and Win.
He loved the last part of thatrather long title and win.
People can be empowered withinformation and tools so that
they don't feel powerless.
They can access the informationto help them make informed
(02:11):
decisions and advocate forthemselves and their families
against the high cost of care.
This education is aimed at theconsumer, the individual.
Until the individual goes tothe doctor or hospital, until
they know what their rights areand where to get the information
they need to make those kind ofinformed decisions, they will
continue to be victimized by thesystem.
(02:34):
About a month before Marshallpassed away, he found an AI
program where he could clonehimself, not on a cellular level
, but just in his healthcarebrain.
He was able to download hisentire healthcare knowledge into
the clone.
He uploaded 475 articles of hisbook, his podcast, his speaking
(02:55):
notes.
Anything that he hadcontributed to healthcare and
healthcare education wasprogrammed into the clone.
Then he trained it and workedwith it to answer specific
questions and responses.
It includes outside links toresources and websites where you
can look up fair pricing, whereyou can get the best deals on
(03:15):
your prescription drugs.
It links to YouTube videos andeven pages in his book and other
helpful tools.
He completed the training tooland shared it with a couple of
friends who were excited aboutusing the potential of AI to
help people navigate healthcare,and then he passed away.
In the weeks following his death, I was overwhelmed with the
outpouring of people that weresharing stories and memories of
(03:38):
Marshall and what his work meantto them.
The one message I heard morethan anything else was we need
to keep his legacy going.
Marshall was an influentialvoice in health care.
People didn't want his work tofade away because it's still
valuable and meaningful.
So I decided in August tocreate the Marshall Allen
Project.
It's a nonprofit foundationthat's mission is to help the
(04:04):
100 million Americans who arestruggling with medical debt and
to give them the tools and theknowledge to make better
decisions for themselves andtheir families.
So I'd like you to introduce youto the MAC.
The MAC stands for MarshallAllen Clone.
The MAC offers expert guidancefor healthcare navigation using
Marshall's proven methodologiesfor healthcare navigation using
(04:27):
Marshall's proven methodologies.
I'm just going to go ahead soyou can scan the QR code and it
will take you directly to theMarshall Allen Project website.
Once you have it scanned andyou have the website loaded, you
can go to the share button onthe bottom.
It's like the little box withthe arrow pointing up.
If you click on the sharebutton and then scroll down a
little bit, it takes you tosomething that says add to home
(04:50):
screen and then, when you add itto the home screen, it says add
at the top and then it willshow up on your phone.
It looks like an app.
It's actually a bookmark butwhat it does is it takes you
directly to the Marshall Allenclone.
So I'd like to do a demo, reallyquick of the clone so you can
kind of see how it functions.
(05:11):
So this is.
You can see it on your phonesand I'll show it here from my
computer.
This is how the map works.
It's very simple.
That's very straightforward.
There's a list of suggestedquestions that you can see below
how do I negotiate and lower mymedical bills?
What should I ask a medicalprovider?
Why should I ask a medicalprovider for the cash price?
(05:33):
And there's a variety ofquestions.
You can see them there.
So the Mac also has thecapacity to you can do a phone
call.
Marshall programmed his voiceinto the Mac and so you do a
phone call and it talks to you.
I'm going to do the text optionbecause otherwise it would pick
up everything that I'm sitting.
(05:53):
But if you do the text option,if you can, just you can click
on any of these questions.
I'm just going to click on thefirst one how do I negotiate and
lower my medical bill?
All right, so what it shows youhere.
It gives you a five-stepprocess.
Number one request an itemizedbill with billing codes.
Number two check for errors.
(06:15):
Number three ask if the bill isnegotiable.
Four offer a cash payment.
Five negotiate based onMedicare rates Six be persistent
.
You can also see these littlelinks.
So there's links here to likeBilly the Try Billy app.
There's links to afairhealthconsumerorg Healthcare
(06:37):
Blue Book.
Then there's also notes.
Well, normally it links to likea YouTube video or another page
where Marshall has done aspeech or a conversation about
this particular issue.
So this is his curatedinformation.
It's not scraped off of Google.
It is 100% Marshall.
(06:59):
It's 100% what he talked aboutand what he spoke about and it's
a really, really useful tool tohelp people navigate what
they're going through.
So it's very practical in thatregard.
If you have an employer, if youare an employer who has a large
(07:20):
group of non-English speakingemployees, this is a really
useful tool.
People who live in the countrywho aren't native English
speakers it's hard enough for usto navigate health care Imagine
if you didn't speak Englishfluently.
So this is a tool that canspeak in their native tongue 115
(07:44):
, I think that covers the vastmajority and so that they can
get the help that they need toanswer the questions that they
have.
The Marshall Allen Project isthe foundation that's built on
his knowledge of the healthcaresystem and the tools that he
created to help people navigate.
He wanted to give people accessto information so that they can
make an informed decision,particularly when it comes to
the cost of care.
(08:04):
The MAC does not include anymedical advice or information or
suggestions.
This is primarily a billing andnavigational tool.
In addition to the MAC,marshall also wrote a newsletter
that is published on throughSubstack and it chronicled
victory stories.
So whenever Marshall went to aconference or spoke, or even in
(08:27):
his book, he actually put hispersonal email and said if
anyone has a bill or you know,an insurance claim denial or
anything that they're trying tohelp email him and then he would
help them figure out the billand how to how to get, how to
fight it.
So he from all of thoseconversations then he created
(08:49):
victory stories and the victorystories were stories that people
who had used Marshall's tacticsand his tools to help fight a
bill or a claim denial and hecame out victorious.
That's the victory stories.
Marshall would interview theperson.
He would write the storiesoutlining the problems and how
they were overcome with actionsteps.
Since Marshall passed away,over 90 people have gone onto
(09:11):
his website and written victorystories of you know, victories
that they had received just fromusing his information and his
tactics.
So we are now relaunching hisSubstack with a guest writer,
andrew Gordon, who is takingthose victory stories,
interviewing those people andgiving us a written guideline as
(09:35):
to how to navigate thosesituations if you happen to be
in one of those situationsyourself.
They are real live examples,they're easy to understand and
they're actionable.
We also have a video curriculumthat Marshall created in 2023.
It's a curriculum of 16 videos,approximately five minutes
apiece, that instruct and equippeople with knowledge of what's
(09:59):
really going on in ourhealthcare system the kind of
under looking under the rock andseeing what are some of the
hidden deals and ways thatpeople are getting taken
advantage of in our healthcaresystem.
So they also.
The curriculum is alsoaccredited with NABIP.
So if you're a broker who needscontinuing education credit,
you can take this curriculumAlso.
(10:21):
It is accredited through SHRMand so if you are in HR and you
also need continuing education,this video curriculum is
available for that as well.
The project is we're launchinga licensing program and we have
broker licenses and we haveenterprise licenses available
and the licensing gives youaccess to all of this
(10:43):
information.
So when you have a broker or anenterprise license, you have
access to the healthcareliteracy curriculum.
You have access to the Substackand you have access to the Mac
and we can collect victorystories from people who are
using the Mac that we're goingto be able to continue writing
(11:04):
in the newsletter.
The Mac is always being updatedwith current information.
We're constantly adding newsources and new information to
help people be navigating this.
As we've heard all morning, aiis teachable and it's constantly
learning.
If you get on there and you'reasking it questions, it will
remember your conversation.
(11:24):
If you talk to it, it will sendyou a transcript in your email
of everything that you'vediscussed.
And if you go back time andtime again, it will also say you
know, if you've had a questionabout something and you'll go
back and you say, okay, I didthis and this and that.
Then the Mac will say, okay,here's the next step, this is
what we can do next.
(11:44):
It will often end theconversation with a question as
to you know, do you know what todo now?
Is there anything I can helpyou with?
It will.
The MAC will write an email foryou.
It will write an insurance,like if you got denied for
coverage.
It will write an appeal letterfor you.
It is a really practical tool.
(12:05):
I've had patient advocates whoare working and on the phone
with a patient who are typinginto the Mac, asking it
questions, as they're talking toan insurance company, all at
the same time.
It's an immediate, one-on-oneinteraction that is very
specific to you and to whereyour needs are.
And then, finally, we are inprocess and gathering an army of
(12:30):
patient advocates who aretrained in Marshall's
methodology, who understood thetools that he had to navigate.
So when people utilize the Mac,sometimes, as you all probably
well know, healthcare can getvery complicated and difficult
to navigate so when they use theMAC, they're able to look up
(12:51):
EOBs, to understand CPT codes,to check for fraud or if they've
been upcoded.
There's a lot that you can doas an individual to understand
what's really happening withyour billing.
And if it gets more complicatedthan that, we have patient
advocates that are available,that are funded through the
(13:11):
foundation, who are there tohelp people.
Again, this is primarilybilling and insurance.
It's not for medical help.
But the advocates are there andthat's a service that we're
going to be providing for you.
But the advocates are there andthat's a service that we're
going to be providing for you.
Marshall was passionate abouthelping people.
Sorry, he was passionate abouthelping people who he felt were
(13:31):
being taken advantage of by ourcomplex and convoluted health
care system.
He wanted to empower peoplewith information and tactics
that they need to advocate forthemselves and to win.
When he spoke, he offered hisemail to contact people.
He spent hours talking topeople on the phone for free,
emailing them, counseling them,listening to them, caring for
(13:54):
them.
He truly loved people and hedid it well.
I am working to move his legacyforward by providing this
curated knowledge and expertiseto people who need the guidance
and the support, and navigatingtheir bills through our AI tool,
the Mac, in addition to hisbooks, videos and newsletter.
We went back through the 106cases that Marshall helped
(14:20):
people with individually andtallied up the amount of money
that they saved by talking withhim.
The total came to 1.65 million,so that's an average of over
15,000 per person of savings.
So for those of you who areinterested in the ROI with this
tool, here's one statistic.
(14:41):
We're hoping, in the first yearof the Marshall Allen Project,
to save over $10 million andjust put a small dent in the 100
million Americans who arefacing medical debt today.
Thank you, thanks for tuning into Risk and Resolve.
See you next time.
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