In this Risk & Resolve episode, we sit down with lifelong friends and WellBridge Surgical co-founders Dr. Eric Inman and Jeff Williams to unpack how they’re flipping the traditional healthcare script—paying surgeons more while cutting total surgery costs 45–60%. We get the backstory from fourth-grade friendship to opening day, the pushback from big systems, and the exact pricing mechanics that make bundled, transparent surgery work for self-funded employers and families.
Main talking points:
• From fourth-grade friends to co-founders: why they took the leap
• What anesthesiology reveals about surgeon quality and building a winning team
• The “Field of Dreams” first year: 1 case a week to 150+ a month
• How bundled pricing pays surgeons more while saving employers 45–60%
• Implants, vendors, and why hospitals prefer higher sticker prices
• The barriers: TPAs, contracts, and system incentives “by design”
• Real numbers: first-day savings and million-dollar+ annual impact for clients
• Culture wars: the personal and professional cost of disrupting a bloated system
• What’s next: WellBridge Health—infusion, Rx, data, and additional locations
• Practical takeaway for CEOs/CFOs: make members care, design the win-win-win
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Risk and Resolve.
And now for your hosts, benConner and Todd Hufford.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome back to another episode of Risk and
Resolve.
I'm your co-host, ben Conner,along with Todd Hufford.
Our special guests yes, that'splural Today are Jeff Williams
and Dr Eric Inman, who areco-founders of Wellbridge
Surgical Gentlemen, glad to haveyou today.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
And thanks for having us.
Yeah, thanks for having us Benand Todd.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Absolutely, and just a fun fact as we have this
conversation, since I think it'sprobably appropriate context.
I've known you guys now foralmost 30 years.
Wow, maybe over 30 years.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Did you do the math or not?
Yeah, I did.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
And I think you guys deserve credit or at least your
group of friends deserve creditfor taking me to my first Dave
Matthews Band concert, whichI've now been to like 50 of them
.
So look what you guys unlocked.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Yeah, I haven't been to one in a while.
Yeah, I remember going backback in the day when you could
uh, deer creek didn't reallyhave the security that it did
did.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Now you kind of just kind of walk on in just breeze
in and breeze out ticket, ticketor not, right, just kind of do
your thing.
But yeah, gentlemen, thanks forjoining us today, really excited
to uh talk about just you guysand your story as friends and
getting into a ambulatorysurgical business that is
(01:33):
different than the status quo.
So, if you guys wouldn't mind,uh and I don't know who wants to
take the mantle on this but uhgive us kind of the background
on like you guys and yourfriendship and how we'll start
there and then we'll get intolike the professional setting.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Yeah.
So Jeff and I have been reallybest friends since we met in
fourth grade.
I don't remember meeting youbefore then, jeff, but I think
in fourth grade Mrs Hoffman'sclass was the first time I
remember hanging out with youand, as most fourth graders do,
we came up with stupid jokes,laughed at dumb things, played
(02:10):
dumb pranks and really eversince then have kind of had a
group of friends that you knowkind of.
You win some, you lose somealong the way.
But Jeff and I have kind ofstuck together.
I went to elementary school,middle school, high school, even
one semester of collegetogether and then kind of
started out in our respectivefields career-wise and joined
(02:35):
right back up about five yearsago or so, at least
professionally.
We've been friends the wholeway but we're able to actually
kind of you know we're running abusiness together, which is
really cool.
I know Jeff has had.
He'll tell you the story of howhe's a serial entrepreneur.
This is my first stab atentrepreneurship, but I'm glad
(02:56):
that I have an experienced, verygood friend to do this with me.
I can't imagine what Jeff hasgone through doing it by himself
for so long to do this with me.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I can't imagine what Jeff has gone through doing it
by himself for so long.
We'll stay with you, Eric, justto talk about, obviously, your
career path.
Probably seems like more of amethodical approach of going to
med school and then tell us alittle bit about you know, your
focus in medicine and kind ofyour experience as you get into
the medical field, about maybewhat it became and what you
(03:28):
thought it was going to becomeand all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
So I went to Purdue and, ben, as you know, I was
there with with Jenny, yoursister, we'll go have like
Thursday night survivor parties.
We'd go go watch survivor backthen.
And so it was kind of torn whatto what to in.
I majored in biology for alittle while.
Then I realized, hey, I don'twant to do biology, I don't
really even like it that much.
So if I don't go to med school,I definitely don't want to be a
(03:51):
teacher.
I wouldn't be terrible at that.
I don't have the patience forthat, unfortunately for any
possible students I'd ever have.
But I thought business wasinteresting, liked numbers,
liked accounting.
So I was an accounting major incollege but ended up didn't
ever do that.
I just went straight to medicalschool, kind of opposite of
what I'm doing now, which isrisky entrepreneurship.
(04:12):
Back then my thought was, hey,this is like you said, ben, it's
pretty, just kind of amethodical.
It was just kind of calculated.
Hey, you know, if you get intomedical school you're going to
have a job and you graduateYou're going to have a job as a
physician and it's going to bepretty stable.
And so I kind of chose thestable, safe route back then
Went to IU Med School anesthesiaresidency and was just doing
(04:39):
anesthesia for about 12 years orso.
But Jeff's heard this story toomany.
I've heard this story myselftell this story too many times,
but I feel like it's like themethodical approach Four years
of high school, four years ofcollege, four years of medical
school, four years of residency.
After about four years ofpracticing anesthesia, I was
(05:01):
kind of ready for a newchallenge.
I kind of get bored if I'm notbeing challenged and we didn't
start Wellbridge after fouryears of my practice but you
know, kind of building up thecourage and the idea behind it,
ended up in 2019 thinking thatthey don't teach you in medical
school about the payment process, about how that affects
people's financial health youknow, not only their physical
(05:23):
health, but financial health isa big thing Didn't really learn
anything about that.
So when I realized that I'mkind of complicit in a system
that is really backwards and notat all like you would think
things should work as far as thepayment process and how things
go in that sense, heard aboutthe Surgery Center of Oklahoma
and what they were doing therewith, you know, totally changing
(05:43):
around how people pay forsurgery and how they can bundle
everything together and it costsless.
It's not part of a hospitalsystem.
Jeff and I found out about thatin 2019.
And I guess it was 2017 backthen and said, hey, I really
think we can do this.
We can really make a difference.
So for me, you know, I feellike, yes, physicians do you
(06:04):
know really any physician thatthey're going to make a
difference, as long as you'redoing the right thing.
There are some that, I suppose,do the wrong thing but make it a
difference in people's lives,health wise.
But I was really, like I said,honestly, kind of bored with
that and wanting to take it onestep further and really kind of
create a new way that patientscould get to the OR and as far
(06:25):
as how patients find their wayto the OR, I had a lot of
Thanksgiving dinners andChristmas dinners and that sort
of thing.
I have family and friends thatasked me suggestions on who to
work with or who to go to as faras a surgeon is for any kind of
surgery, and you know that wasjust something that I kind of do
for family and friends to beable to extend that to try to
(06:47):
get a group of surgeons togetherwe really want to make a
difference, who really do betterthan average job and can
control the price and the wholepayment model.
Like that it's just.
It's just awesome to be able todo that, and to do it with your
best friend is is even better.
You're doing great, eric, but,jeff, has it been an hour?
Has it been an hour?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
yeah, we're there.
I'm just here because of themustache.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And the buffalo in the background.
I guess it'd be a bison maybe.
But anyway, jeff, you couldshare with us a little bit about
your journey professionally, orreally just getting into
college and professionally andwhat did that look like?
What was your journey up intothat moment in 2017 where you
guys professionally startedhaving conversations?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, you know.
Going back to Eric talkingabout fourth grade, you know I
don't.
I don't think a lot's changedwith he and I since since fourth
grade.
Really, you know, just gottenolder and slightly more mature,
but still the same old easygoingguys and like to joke around.
So it's kind of fun in aprofessional setting to be able
to keep it light with yourbusiness partner, and some
(07:51):
people are thrown off by thatuntil they know we've been best
friends since fourth grade.
So I went to college.
I was really focused on sports,as you know, and I remember you
were a baller Ben, you reallywere sports, as you know, and I
remember you were a baller ben,you really were the summer camp,
like you and and neff, andthere's a handful full of you
guys, uh, little ballers.
So I, you know, I was veryfocused on sports.
(08:14):
So I went to all of it nazareneuniversity and played, played
some basketball there, or atleast viewed the games from the
bench, um, so I didn't see thecourt a whole lot, but it was a
great view from there front row.
I didn't really know.
I spent the summers playingbasketball too.
Between college I was abusiness major, which made sense
for me.
(08:34):
But my last year of collegenumber one I didn't really love
my basketball coach and I didn'treally love him telling me what
to do all the time See, seethat.
And I didn't really love himtelling me what to do all the
time See, see that.
And I've got the specialcomputer.
So I realized I didn't reallylike him telling me what to do.
I like to use my naturalinstincts on the court versus
running a set offense.
(08:55):
And then, senior year ofbusiness school, we did a
business plan and you had tostart a business and I thought,
hey, this is pretty cool, I likethis.
And I got to start figuring outwhat I'm actually going to do
with my life and so I startedthinking through it and so I
came out of school wanting toown my own business and make my
own way and make my owndecisions, and so that's really
(09:16):
my path into entrepreneurship.
So I've had a business for 23years in the printing industry
and my journey kind of startswith Wellbridge obviously the
same time as Eric at his pool in2017, when my insurance had
gone up a lot and I just startedwith the only person that I
(09:38):
knew, my best friend, eric, andit was all his fault that my
rates were going up because ofhe's a doctor, right?
You know, I didn't know, I hadno idea, and I don't think most
business owners do know whereall the money is going.
And you know, we have a betteridea now, but yeah, that was the
start of Wellbridge for me.
Eric was wanting to get intobusiness and I said, well, we
should do something in medicineand figure out how to help the
(10:01):
system, you know, be lessbloated and try to lower costs.
And he said yes.
I said yes, and and that'swhere the the Wellbridge piece
started.
So it was really from my othercompany and the health insurance
was going up, so ourdeductibles were going up and I
didn't really feel like we weregetting anything better medical
(10:22):
care wise.
And so, in business as anentrepreneur, it makes no sense
to me.
If I'm paying more, I shouldhave a better experience, and
I'm not.
Actually, I thought it wasgetting worse for my employees,
and so that's what entrepreneursdo, right, you see a hole in
the system and you fill thathole.
So that's kind of the quickversion of my side of it.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
So, jeff, something that just came to my mind as you
were talking, with what you'redoing with Wellbridge versus the
industry that you really like,so to your entrepreneurial roots
, you are in an industry inprinting that is being disrupted
, right, and you are launchinginto an industry as the
(11:04):
disruptor.
What were lessons learned asyou kind of look at both of
those scenarios of, like youknow, kind of being on both
sides of the coin?
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Yeah, I think they're , you know, being disrupted in
different ways.
But so to really kind of seethe path of, you know, the
printing industry that's beenaround forever, right, think
about Heidelberg presses andwhatnot and what's happening
there, you know, definitely hashelped me to understand where
medical which I don't think isreally personally in my opinion,
hasn't really has just startedto be disrupted.
(11:35):
It kind of helps to have alittle bit of experience and
vision, you know, into wherethings are heading and what
landmines you're going toprobably have to step on, and
that not everybody you know hardlesson not everybody is going
to be your friend when you'redisrupting a bloated system that
has a lot of dollars attachedto it, right.
(11:57):
So if you're upsetting theirapple cart with where their
money stream's coming from andthat money but that money stream
needs to be disrupted for theeveryday American, you know you
might have some people that stoptalking to you for sure.
So that's, that's been kind ofinteresting.
But yeah, I think one hashelped prepare me for the other
for sure.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So what did that look like?
What was the official openingday?
If you will, opening not likebaseball, I guess surgery would
be a little different.
But what was like?
The grand opening?
What date was that forWellbridge?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
It was one of those days, and then I knew what it
was, until Jeff kept saying thewrong date on the specific exact
date, and now it's gotten tothe point where I can't remember
which one is which, but Ithought it was December 2nd 2021
, but it was either the secondor the fourth.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Yeah, we'll go with the second for Eric's purposes
here there we go.
The day before, our gal at thefront desk decided to quit after
one day.
So you know, you got to do whatyou got to do.
You got to run the front desk.
So I was running the front deskday one for a couple weeks
until I could find a replacement.
I remember the day before Eric,and this is one of my proudest
moments.
I remember the day before Ericand this is one of my proudest
(13:03):
moments was out in the parkinglot with his leaf blower blowing
off the sidewalk in the parkinglot so it would look good.
You know, day one, that wasawesome.
I was like now that's a realentrepreneur right there.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, hey, don't get second chance at a first
impression, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Right, exactly, you know.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
He didn't like those books in college, I got to do
the.
You know, didn't like thosebooks in college, I got to do
the, uh, you know.
So we did one case the firstweek and then we did two cases
the second week and then we, youknow, go on to uh, you know, I
think we did a 150 cases, so oneof the previous, you know, a
couple months so, but I rememberthat first case.
I, you know, and I had donethis for a while.
I've been doing it for maybewhat?
(13:45):
14 years at this point.
So I've done over 10,000anesthetics and I don't remember
being more nervous for ananesthetic than the first one we
did here.
And it's no different.
It's doing the same thing, samepeople around that I worked
with before.
And I think back of that nowbecause now it's just like
normal here.
There'd be surgeries all thetime here.
(14:05):
But you know, it was prettycool that first day just
realizing, hey, like we savedthis person probably $6,000 on
their arm surgery.
But you know, which is reallycool.
But you know, we did it allourselves, we put all this
together and we actuallydelivered great care to a
patient at a reasonable rate.
And that was just the start ofthings to come.
(14:25):
That was a really cool.
I'll never forget that.
That first day, that first caseWhile it's just like all the
other ones that I ever did itwas pretty cool to be able to
say, hey, we, we did this, I didthe anesthetic.
Jeff was at the front desk.
I think we had four employeesmaybe at that point.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Yeah, it was pretty cool, I had to go back.
It's the only time I've everbeen in the OR.
I had to go back, bringsomething back there or
something I can't remember what,and that's the first and last
time I've ever been to the OR.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
And that first patient has had two family
members come back.
Eric, do you think?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
you could have been in this position had you not
picked the anesthesiologistspecialty no no.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
I do not.
I think there's a couple ofreasons.
One is maybe not the bestreason, but we really did model
ourselves after the surgerycenter of Oklahoma.
We don't do everything the same.
There are a few differences.
But I don't know that we wouldhave thought of this if we
hadn't heard about what Dr KeithSmith was doing in Oklahoma and
met with him, talked with himand have him be really a helpful
(15:23):
kind of guiding person to helpus out with this.
He's an anesthesiologist and I'man anesthesiologist, so I think
it's not just because he is ananesthesiologist.
I think the reason he was ableto do it is because he knew a
lot of surgeons as ananesthesiologist.
Like Jeff said, he had a frontrow seat to watching the Olivet
basketball games.
I had a front row seat toseeing basically all the
surgeries on downtown and on thenorth side of Indianapolis for
(15:47):
12 years.
Like I really knew pretty muchall of us, all the surgeons that
worked with all of them.
Nowadays you know the ones Idon't know, they're kind of
usually ones that have come outin the last several years or a
few years that I've not workedwith before.
But to be able to do that andsee all those folks like you
kind of hey, this is a, we got ateam here, we can put this team
together and create a winningwinning culture and a winning
(16:09):
winning team.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
How did that work?
So did you come on full-time?
And then how do you attract orhow did you at the beginning,
and how has it changedattracting these surgeons who
are did they have to beindependent, or, some of them,
employed by hospitals?
How did you get the free agentsand what does that look like
for them?
Speaker 4 (16:26):
It would be crazy if we had not had these
conversations before we started.
We are a little crazy, but notthat crazy.
So when we're thinking aboutthis, we're like, hey, you know,
let's poke holes in this thing,like why would this not work?
It makes so much sense andthat's what when we tell going
to put it up the other one, well, you know, when this one's
busting out which hopefully willbe soon but it makes so much
(16:48):
sense, but we were poking holesin it and so so I'm going over
to it, going around to all okay,well, who can we talk to with
ENT, who can talk to with allthe different specialties that
we wanted to cover, to reallyhave a good offering to an
employer or anybody needingsurgery?
And so I don't know, I don'treally know probably no.
(17:12):
200 different surgeons thatI've worked with, like on a at
least you know, somewhat, youknow non-irregular basis, and
had conversations with maybe 20of them, just to see, hey, what
if?
What if we had a surgery centerthat we would give you the
patients?
So we would give you patientsthat we get, and the patients
are coming to us for reasons ofquality and price and you know
we want you here because of yourquality.
What if we were to pay you moreto do a surgery here than, say,
(17:36):
anthem or UnitedHealthcare orwhatever payer, certainly
Medicare, medicaid would pay you, cade.
What would pay you?
Because if we're controllingthe bundle as far as well, we're
just controlling the bundle wecan really control the pieces of
that pie and reconcile what inIndiana is a problem the
surgeons getting you know bottom10 of reimbursement in the
country and the facilitiesgetting the top 10, usually top
(17:59):
five and enough.
You know people like Jeff was in2017, kind of cynical to the
physicians in healthcare.
Some of them are.
You know people like Jeff wasin 2017, kind of cynical to the
physicians in health care.
Some of them are, you know allabout the money and are jaded by
the system, but still a lotreally really do want to do the
right thing, really want to helppeople and are passionate about
(18:20):
doing something like this.
And so, for a couple of reasonsobviously, if we were going to
say, hey, we're going to giveyou patients, that's gaining
market share and we're going topay you more, that's more
revenue.
And also then you add in thatmost people that want to go,
they go into medicine.
They do want to help people.
I can't say there are no jerks,because we all know that there
are, but you're kind of playingat that part of them that was
(18:41):
always probably there when theywanted to go to medical school.
So those three things togetherI guess made sense for them and
thank goodness you know when weactually did it and they came
through and actually did come inand work with us, participate
with us.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
How many different physicians will perform at least
one surgery at Wellbridge thisyear and dive into that idea
that you know, in my mind I feellike so many of these docs have
been bought by hospitals.
They're W-2 employees of thesehospitals.
Are you having to find surgeonsthat are truly independent, or
have you found and discovered away to employ these folks?
(19:16):
Do their contracts allow themto perform some percentage of
their surgeries in a facilitylike Wellbridge?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Yeah.
So to answer the first question, I'm not sure I don't know the
exact answer, but probably Iwould guess 50 different
surgeons would be my guess.
And the second question yeah,almost all of them that there
are, I'd say 90, 95% of them areindependent surgeons, meaning,
like you said, todd, thatthey're, that they're not owned
by the hospital system.
The hospital systems have still, I think, as it is now, they
(19:46):
still have they can enforce thenon competes.
I think that was on the table.
I think it got thrown off likethe 11th hour.
But there are a couple thathave in their contract that
they're allowed to do somethingin their off time, their days
off of working at that hospitalsystem.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Have you had a story yet, anecdotally, where there's
a surgeon who maybe was beingsqueezed out of the marketplace
and the sheer presence of themodel and the facility of
Wellbridge has given them accessto clients, better income and
allowed them to now practicemedicine the way they want,
outside of a hospital system?
Speaker 4 (20:19):
I think probably the answer is yes.
They haven't come and told methat, but there are a couple
that it's been significant forthem, I bet.
But they have not said, hey,you're saving grace or anything
like that.
I wouldn't necessarily say thatwe are, but I think to some
extent.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yes, I guess the answer would be looking at that
period from, like the 2017, theidea to you know, the grand
opening jeff welcoming everyoneinto wellbridge from the front
desk.
What were some like milemarkers that stood out to you
around important things thathappened in that period and or
(20:55):
things that were wildlysurprising, that you were like,
whoa, didn't expect this.
What were some of those things?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I think I just watched Field of Dreams for the
first time in like 15 yearsrecently, and I told Eric I was
like when's the last time yousaw that man?
You got to watch it becausethat was us, you know.
Sure, we had, you know, casehere, case there in the
beginning, but it was like, hey,we built it.
And it was like, hey, didsomebody just say they needed a
surgery?
Did I hear something?
You know like, where'severybody at?
(21:28):
You know, and 2022 was rough,to say the least.
So, as the sales, you knowbusiness side of the Wellbridge
venture, you know all has to dowith the pipeline.
And so we're looking at thereferrals that come in each week
and really even before that itstarted just like landing one.
Because we're calling onself-funded plans right, and I
know you guys know that, butmaybe maybe those listening
don't understand that.
(21:48):
Because we're calling onself-funded plans right, and I
know you guys know that, butmaybe those listening don't
understand that that they're atrisk for their health plan,
right?
So business peers like myself,and so, with that you have to
get lives and that's in the dooras a business in order to for
one of those lives to actuallyneed surgery, and so first of
all we just had to land somebody.
City of Zionsville was ourfirst, and then we had to start
(22:08):
having people call us.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Who did the cold call to get that one?
Do you remember?
Speaker 3 (22:14):
You're breaking up.
I can't hear you.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Let me just go with my story please.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I set up a script.
I'll give Eric credit here.
I gave him a script and a listof United healthcare folks and
he started dialing and he wasthe only one that had success
that day.
So now I'll give you.
I'll give you credit there,buddy.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
My only success story , but it was that first day.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Step of the ball in motion.
Yeah.
So those referrals each week isreally what.
You know what.
I remember where we used to be.
If we got like five referralsin a week, I'm like here we go,
we're on to something here,right, and over the 4th of July
we had 47 referrals in a weekand a half.
I mean that just.
(23:01):
I mean that's just crazy rightto think about.
So that would be one of mine.
The other piece, you know, forme understanding as a business
owner, where is the dysfunction?
The TPAs.
Some TPAs have been a realsurprise to me.
On that.
They're actually part of thedysfunction.
I don't need to go into it alltoday, but I had a TPA at my
other, my printing company, ofwhich I've now fired that wasn't
(23:23):
paying Wellbridge and theydidn't know I was on both sides
of the coin and so I just letthis whole thing play out for
six months.
I went ahead and wrote a checkfrom the printing company to
Wellbridge because we needed thecash.
I said, eric, when we get paid,though, I deem that back, you
know, and to see that wholething play out over six months,
(23:45):
it was very interesting to me.
I think I might have actuallycalled one of you to ask you
like, why would a TPA not bepaying this bill?
And so called around kind of.
And then I got tired of themnot paying the bill and I had my
attorney send the letter thathey, the contract says you need
to pay in like 45 days orwhatever it was.
And boom, all of a suddenWellbridge got paid.
That was pretty shock.
That was a big shocker to methat even the TPAs can not all
(24:07):
of them obviously, but can bepart of the problem.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
What were some of those other challenges that
might have surprised you guys?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Eric, I'll throw it over to you as a new
entrepreneur.
I'm sure you've got a handful.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Oh yeah, I guess overall, like everybody's heard,
we really don't want toreinvent the wheel, right, jeff
being like the salesperson forWelbridge Surgical, and he
literally had to reinvent thewheel Because you know, jeff's
talking like about how you haveto get these lives, this is how
you get them, this is what yougo from there.
Well, we didn't know any ofthat.
Like literally, we were open,we had the ORs ready and we
(24:42):
didn't know any of that, and sowe really did have to reinvent
the wheel and Dr Keith didn'tknow that either, right?
Speaker 3 (24:46):
So when we called Dr Keith up, he's like we get our
referrals from the TPAs andwe're like, okay, I really think
day one was in the kitchen atmy house when I made the first,
dialed, the first phone call,which was Beck Seed, because I
had a contact there through apeer group that I was in charge
of, you know.
And also my first launch,talking about Wellbridge, was
(25:10):
with Utah.
I don't know if you rememberthat Thai restaurant we went to.
I remember it, yeah, and so youknow that's really day one for
me, not December 2nd or 4th orwhatever day that was, that we
are continuing to probably argueabout, eric and I for the rest
of time, but was really thatfirst sales call I thought you
were crazy then, and I prettymuch think you're crazy still.
(25:32):
It's the truth, there's no doubtabout it, anybody.
You all three know me, andthere's the crazy parts of me
for sure.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
I'm trying to think of the big surprise.
I don't think on the medicalside there's really much of a
surprise at all.
I think that if anything, itwas good surprises with at least
one one thing.
One of the things we wereworried about to build out our
prices so.
So the way I built out theprices were was okay, we know
how much we're going to pay theanesthesiologist, we know how
much we're going to sugar thatthey had a surgeon Pathology.
(26:03):
We luckily overhead we were notcovering all of our overhead at
first but luckily now we arewhat we were worried about was
like implants, like so all thesethe hospital systems have
really good must have you knowso much volume, they must have
great pricing with all thevendors and the implant folks
and we were warned about that.
Hey, you guys are gonna havesome problems with this.
It makes sense, right, like asmaller, because the independent
(26:25):
practitioners say you're a solopractice, you do not get
reimbursed as a physician nearlyas well as a big practice or
even a private equity ownedgroup gets even more usually, I
believe.
But we did not find that to bethe case.
We found that not only were thephysicians interested in
helping us out like the vendorsworked with us too, and probably
(26:46):
not because out of the goodnessof their heart.
It's probably because thehospitals don't care.
Hospitals are happy to have a$10,000 implant versus a $5,000
implant because they do a costplus anyway, and so they're
going to charge more.
They can charge more and makemore.
We're not built around thatmodel.
We are built around we want tocreate the best value for our
clients and built around thatmodel we are built around, we
(27:07):
want to create the best valuefor our clients and luckily.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I mean, it was a good , good surprise.
Yeah, so we were part of adocumentary project that was
released a little over a yearago called it's Not Personal,
it's Just Healthcare, and one of, like, the main things we talk
about in that is we all thinkthat the healthcare system is
broken, but the more and moreyou dig, the more and more you
(27:29):
realize that it may be broken,but it's actually built like
this by design and you knoweveryone in the supply chain is
doing really well with thesystem the way it is.
Is that something that you guystended to bump into time and
time again?
(27:49):
Or, as you guys were, trying tobreak out of that system or
what?
what are your thoughts to that?
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Yeah, my thought is that that's a hundred percent
correct.
I mean, if nobody wants thesystem to change, they've got
the lobby, they've got the moneybehind it, they've got the
lobbyists behind them, and soain't nothing.
I mean, people are going tocomplain all the time, but the
people who are really makingmoney off it are probably
pulling most of the strings, andso I don't think it's really
going to change terribly muchuntil I mean, you have to like I
(28:21):
think it starts with employers.
I really, really, really do.
I think it starts withemployers.
I really, really, really do,because when we opened, people
were like, oh, this is great forthe self-pay people, the cash
pay people, because they don'thave insurance, which is the
magical giving tree, right?
No, they don't have insuranceand so they actually care what
things cost.
And I'm like, yeah, that makessense.
But what we did know before westarted about self-funded
(28:43):
employers, that's just anaggregate of self-payers.
They actually care.
So it's not just our cashpayers that we make sense to,
it's anybody who cares about howmuch it costs.
Unfortunately, tons of peopledon't care about how much it
costs and they just love tocomplain.
They don't want to do anythingabout it, mostly probably
because they don't understand it.
I hear that all the time.
But self-funded employers,which are you know what?
(29:04):
70% of people who haveinsurance through their employer
are self-funded, something likethat.
You guys would know better thanme.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
State of Indiana.
That's right In Indiana, yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
That's a ton of people and they're in the same
boat.
They care about how much itcosts, they being the employer,
right, the CEOs, cfos, and ifyou can create a mechanism to
make the member care, which theyshould and have a win-win-win,
that's what we've done.
But all along the way, peopleputting barriers up for that,
which is what I think whatyou're talking about for sure,
(29:35):
along with some brokers that arenot named Connor Insurance
broker advisors that aredisincentivized to talk to their
client about a WellbridgeSurgical zero-tier model.
So the TPAs, like Jeff said,the hospital systems, like I
believe, can't stand us.
I mean, they tried to get mefired.
Ascension did when we werestarting this.
They didn't even employ me, butwith my anesthesia group, they
(29:59):
were pressuring my anesthesiagroup to fire me.
So and they still are hostiletowards us.
Even the, even some of thesurgeons who own and some of the
other, the surgery centers whodon't.
Even their model is not at alllike this, but they're
benefiting off, like you said,ben, they're benefiting off of
the way things are, they'rehappy with it.
They're getting fat and theydon't want to.
They don't want things tochange.
Hop X surgeons, that that youwould think you know, or just
(30:22):
just want the best, best thatyou would think.
You know.
We just want the best forpatients.
They do not.
They want the best for theirpocketbooks.
Everybody is complicit in it.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
We touched on it briefly but like the pricing
model and more or less how thatcompares to what like an
everyday American or Hoosierwould pay at a different
facility, what value they get atWellbridge.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
Actually, I first start off with the surgeon's
amount which we pay them.
Like I said, it's a formula weuse but we pay them generally
almost all the time, you know,significantly more than a
commercial payer would pay thesurgeon.
As far as a professional feegoes Anesthesia, we pay a decent
amount for that.
Add those two together becausethose are known quantities per
CPD code, and then any pathology.
(31:08):
If that's in there, that's notusually too expensive.
Add those together, then thesupplies, implants.
Add those.
So those are actual numbers thatwe can put together and say,
hey, we have a number.
And then how long does thatprocedure take?
We know what our overhead isand what we want to have as a
small margin per hour and wejust kind of plug that into
there and in the end, well, it'sgotten more sophisticated.
(31:29):
At first it was not thatsophisticated, but in the end
the price that we have and wecome up with.
We've had independent TPAs,we've had UnitedHealthcare,
looked at a lot of differentthings, different folks have
looked at it and it's anywherefrom like 45 to 60 percent,
depending where you are inIndiana, 45 to 60 percent less
than the average cost.
And this is cost, not billedamounts.
(31:50):
It would be a way higherdiscount off the billed amount.
But as far as what sayUnitedHealthcare Anthem, just
average commercial reimbursementis going to be about double of
what the cost is at Walgreens.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Well, just to wrap that up, I mean you talked about
physicians are actually gettingpaid better, which to highlight
that Indiana's in the bottom10% of physician comp across the
country.
So our physicians are gettingpaid better, the ones who are
actually delivering care.
You know the anesthesiologiststhat are.
You know they're putting you tosleep, but what they really get
(32:25):
paid for is waking you up, andso those folks are still getting
paid.
You're covering supplies.
So, ultimately, the things thatI'm hearing, that are the
variables that are making up,depending on which way you look
at it.
Either doubling the cost orcutting it in half is wrapped up
in facility margin andinsurance profit.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
And maybe administrative inefficiencies.
I would say too yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
That goes back to insurance profit, I guess, more
or less, maybe the insurance andfacility combined, right, right
, yeah, because most hospitalsare employing, like you know,
200 people just to doink aroundwith the insurance companies,
which that's just total madness,but anyway.
So you guys are delivering thatkind of value just by getting
rid of the things that peoplehate anyway, which is, you know,
(33:16):
a really high charge for rentand for the facility and an
insurance company just creatingmargin for adding really no
value outside of a, you know,the financial credit card of a
health insurance plan.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Eric, did you guys ever calculate on an annual
basis the aggregate that youestimate you've saved your
patients?
Because I would think thatwould be the number that the
hospitals would put a target onyour back when you talk about
trying to get doxed, if you will, from your old anesthesiology
group and then the follow-upquestion is you kind of
mentioned trying to get removedfrom there what is the worst you
(33:51):
guys have been treated?
What are some situations thathave happened where you're like
wait a minute, am I gettingtargeted here?
And we have not done it inaggregate?
Speaker 4 (33:58):
We haven't done it.
Yeah, yeah, certain folks, likeyou know, some of the bigger
clients that we have and oranybody who wants to know we do
either quarterly or yearlyanalyses and say, well, this is
what you spend at Wellbridge andyou have to kind of hypothesize
of where, if you would havegone somewhere else, this is how
much it would have cost.
You can always tell them howmuch they would have saved if we
(34:19):
see what they actually spentsomewhere else.
But if they come here you haveto hypothesize, hey, where would
you go?
But if you say it's 40 to 60,say 50% more, yeah, we have done
that for different companies,I'd say for sure, last year it
was over a million dollars, butI just don't know, because I
know it was like, yeah, it hadto be way over that, just
because I guess what I looked at.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
We did 5.3 million last year, Right.
So for 50% less you can kind ofstart doing some basic math.
That saves roughly 5 mil, right?
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Right, but I would go with the second part of that.
The moment that I'll alwaysremember is I was helping coach
my daughter in soccer at GrandPark and I had a couple of
missed calls from the managingmember of my anesthesia group.
I was on the board as well andcalled him afterwards and said
hey, the president of thehospital wants you fired.
(35:12):
And so that was, and I thinkthat was like it was less than a
week after we put our websiteup.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Literally.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
It's just ridiculous, it's terrible, it's offensive
to say that you and see, it'sjust ridiculous, it's terrible,
it's offensive to say that youknow we're trying to do
something that's good and theyare clearly not having it and
that's you know.
Whether that was one person,whether that was the whole
administration, I'm not sure,but that was my moment.
If you're asking for a moment,todd, that was my moment.
Like, oh my gosh, like peoplehate this and this is like we're
(35:51):
only doing a good thing andthey are not having it.
Um, that was long after that.
Definitely eye-opening andscary to me.
Really.
How long after that did youleave the practice?
I lasted another seven months.
Yeah, I mean the.
The idea was always to.
I mean we didn't necessarilywant to leave the practice, we
just wanted to kind of do thisas well, but just untenable.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I love when those stories get exposed because it
just shows how dirty and nastypeople could be.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Yeah, Sure, I was by the fire with the attorneys that
night, sitting by the fire atmy house on the phone with the
attorney until about 1030,trying to figure out, like, as a
marketer, it's great when yourwebsite gets noticed in four
days, but not in this way,obviously.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
And I'd have surgeons stop me and talk to me, people
who were basically like, werevery super friendly and
collegial before and really justseemed like I had done
something very personal to them.
And it was just, you know,creating this free market
surgery center idea.
We hadn't even opened it yet.
Free market surgery center idea.
(36:47):
We hadn't even opened it yet.
There was a couple physicianslounge at 86th street and one of
the surgery centers that werejust awkward conversations.
It's like, hey, I'm just doingthis because I think it's a good
idea, I think it'll help peopleand, yeah, they were very
confrontational and really bumpsabout it.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Just so, encouraged by you guys, keep just
continuing and forward and goingthrough the fire just to do the
right thing.
So congrats to you guys on that.
What's on your roadmap ofwhat's next?
Speaker 3 (37:14):
I think the vision is Wellbridge Health being able to
continue to help in other areasoutside of you know outpatient
surgery, so infusions is onthere, rx would be on there.
Anything that the self-fundedplan doesn't have visibility
into would like to have onecompany to go to to handle it.
(37:35):
I think we'll be becoming astrusted advisors in the market,
and my experience outside ofWellbridge has shown that when
you do the right thing and youbecome a trusted advisor, that
your clients take care of youright.
And so, yeah, overall, I thinkWellbridge Health is something
that we're looking at right nowand expanding into other areas
of the spend.
(37:55):
We think we're about 20% of thespend.
On average, outpatient surgeryis kind of what we see.
I don't know if you guys wouldagree with that, but so what are
those other areas that we canaffect?
So, and then other locations aswell, for on the surgical side.
But even recently, as we had aboard meeting and even you know
(38:16):
Wellbridge data, we think thatwe've got pretty good data
collected and we think that weunderstand it well, so we're
looking into that piece of ittoo.
So I don't know if that helpsanswer your question, but any
way that we can be of help iswhat we're looking for.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Sounds like your brand is not only around the
idea of value but around theidea of transparency.
So if you look at the thingsthat are unclear or, you know,
seem to be, the most egregiousmisaligned incentive is your
opportunity to go in, add valueand bring transparency to the
(38:55):
situation 100.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
My hope is that hopefully we won't be the only
ones in the market.
You know the only free marketsurgery center that had that
post their prices.
Like people just don't evenknow.
You can go into a room ofemployers and they don't even
know what a gallbladder shouldcost, what a colonoscopy should
cost.
They just have no idea andthey're paying for it and it's
such a high line item on theirexpense and their expenses for
the year.
We only become more valuablewhen people actually know and
(39:19):
they can look and look and seewhat they're spending on.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Absolutely so look and see what they're spending on
, absolutely so.
We usually close our episodewith asking our guests two
questions, so I'm gonna ask thefirst one to each of you guys.
Jeff, we'll start with youwhat's a risk that you have
taken that has changed your life?
Speaker 3 (39:38):
I think it goes back to the beginning of my story,
coming out of college becomingan entrepreneur.
I've been a full commissionsguy for 23 years.
It's a pretty big risk but hardwork, you know, pays off and so
you know I wouldn't changeanything and obviously love the
freedom of it as well.
That was a big risk, you know,could have gone the other way,
(39:59):
easily gone the other way overdifferent phases of the last 23
years.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Eric, what about you?
I would say it's the same asJeff's, Mine is just you know
however, many years later, I wasin a very good situation with
the group that I was with beforeand I thought there was
something else.
I thought I was meant to dosomething else and kind of
stepping off from a verycomfortable situation.
It's one thing if you hey, yougot like no choice, you're in a
(40:24):
corner and you got to dosomething.
It's different when like hey,this is, this is good, Things
are going great, but I, I meanso it takes a lot to be able to
say, hey, I really think I needto make this, make this jump,
that's great.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
We've got a second question, but before we get to
it, I want to personally thankyou from myself and also from
the two plus million people inIndianapolis has been mentioned
earlier.
Your guys' risk is a benefitand a treasure to everybody in
this city because they getquality service at a lower price
.
And you just mentioned it, eric.
You said, hey, you know, itlooks bright for me today, but I
(40:58):
had to take a hit.
Not only that, you had to takea relational hit and you had to
be threatened.
And what I've found in life isthat whenever you step out, you
challenge what people are saying, when you know they're lying,
when you know they're stealing,when you know they're cheating,
is that there's always a cost,and you guys have had to suffer
that cost, and I hate that foryou guys, but I love it for the
outcome.
I love it from where it's going.
(41:19):
So, with that in mind, sinceyou guys are now professionals
in the areas of taking risk andturning over tables, if you will
, eric, I'll start with you sowe can finish with Jeff what is
yet unfinished, that you havethe resolve to complete, dr Eric
Inman.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
Well, first of all, I really appreciate that, Todd.
It really means a lot.
Honestly, I'd say that whatwe've made it, we've kind of
turned the corner business-wise.
One thing that Jeff and I don'thave to worry about is not
having the resolve.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Jeff, what's left yet unfinished, that you, my friend
, have the resolve to complete.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Yeah, I just want to say too, thank you for real,
todd, for you saying that Ithink you understand on some
level what we've been throughand to just be able to do
something good for the community, you know, and so that really,
really is awesome.
I appreciate saying that Ericspelled out the Wellbridge
better than I could, so I won'tgo there.
But I'll say for me personally,what's not been resolved is I
(42:19):
am still Dude Ranch.
That's all I got to say.
Dude Ranch, I got to get that,I got to get that figured out.
So it's coming, it's coming,you just wait.
But still a ways out fromowning a Dude Ranch.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Well, I thought you were crazy at that Thai
restaurant.
I think you're crazy today.
It seems to be a pattern thatwhenever I think you're crazy,
things start happening, so Ican't wait to be invited out to
that Dude Ranch Interesting.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yep, things start happening, so I can't wait to be
invited out to that dude ranch.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, you bet.
Well, guys, uh, reallyappreciate you joining us today.
Again, known you guys for can'tbelieve it 30 years at this
point and uh, uh, I've alwayslooked up to you guys and I'm
still due to this day what youguys are doing with well bridge
and how you guys raise yourfamilies and everything else
like that.
But wanted to thank everyonewho joined us today and for
listening in for another episodeof Risk and Resolve.
(43:08):
We will catch you next time.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Thanks for tuning in to Risk and Resolve.
See you next time.
You're listening to Risk and Resolve.
And now for your hosts, benConner and Todd Hufford.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome back to another episode of Risk and
Resolve.
I'm your co-host, ben Conner,along with Todd Hufford.
Our special guests yes, that'splural Today are Jeff Williams
and Dr Eric Inman, who areco-founders of Wellbridge
Surgical Gentlemen, glad to haveyou today.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
And thanks for having us.
Yeah, thanks for having us Benand Todd.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Absolutely, and just a fun fact as we have this
conversation, since I think it'sprobably appropriate context.
I've known you guys now foralmost 30 years.
Wow, maybe over 30 years.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Did you do the math or not?
Yeah, I did.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
And I think you guys deserve credit or at least your
group of friends deserve creditfor taking me to my first Dave
Matthews Band concert, whichI've now been to like 50 of them
.
So look what you guys unlocked.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Yeah, I haven't been to one in a while.
Yeah, I remember going backback in the day when you could
uh, deer creek didn't reallyhave the security that it did
did.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Now you kind of just kind of walk on in just breeze
in and breeze out ticket, ticketor not, right, just kind of do
your thing.
But yeah, gentlemen, thanks forjoining us today, really excited
to uh talk about just you guysand your story as friends and
getting into a ambulatorysurgical business that is
(01:33):
different than the status quo.
So, if you guys wouldn't mind,uh and I don't know who wants to
take the mantle on this but uhgive us kind of the background
on like you guys and yourfriendship and how we'll start
there and then we'll get intolike the professional setting.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Yeah.
So Jeff and I have been reallybest friends since we met in
fourth grade.
I don't remember meeting youbefore then, jeff, but I think
in fourth grade Mrs Hoffman'sclass was the first time I
remember hanging out with youand, as most fourth graders do,
we came up with stupid jokes,laughed at dumb things, played
(02:10):
dumb pranks and really eversince then have kind of had a
group of friends that you knowkind of.
You win some, you lose somealong the way.
But Jeff and I have kind ofstuck together.
I went to elementary school,middle school, high school, even
one semester of collegetogether and then kind of
started out in our respectivefields career-wise and joined
(02:35):
right back up about five yearsago or so, at least
professionally.
We've been friends the wholeway but we're able to actually
kind of you know we're running abusiness together, which is
really cool.
I know Jeff has had.
He'll tell you the story of howhe's a serial entrepreneur.
This is my first stab atentrepreneurship, but I'm glad
(02:56):
that I have an experienced, verygood friend to do this with me.
I can't imagine what Jeff hasgone through doing it by himself
for so long to do this with me.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I can't imagine what Jeff has gone through doing it
by himself for so long.
We'll stay with you, Eric, justto talk about, obviously, your
career path.
Probably seems like more of amethodical approach of going to
med school and then tell us alittle bit about you know, your
focus in medicine and kind ofyour experience as you get into
the medical field, about maybewhat it became and what you
(03:28):
thought it was going to becomeand all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
So I went to Purdue and, ben, as you know, I was
there with with Jenny, yoursister, we'll go have like
Thursday night survivor parties.
We'd go go watch survivor backthen.
And so it was kind of torn whatto what to in.
I majored in biology for alittle while.
Then I realized, hey, I don'twant to do biology, I don't
really even like it that much.
So if I don't go to med school,I definitely don't want to be a
(03:51):
teacher.
I wouldn't be terrible at that.
I don't have the patience forthat, unfortunately for any
possible students I'd ever have.
But I thought business wasinteresting, liked numbers,
liked accounting.
So I was an accounting major incollege but ended up didn't
ever do that.
I just went straight to medicalschool, kind of opposite of
what I'm doing now, which isrisky entrepreneurship.
(04:12):
Back then my thought was, hey,this is like you said, ben, it's
pretty, just kind of amethodical.
It was just kind of calculated.
Hey, you know, if you get intomedical school you're going to
have a job and you graduateYou're going to have a job as a
physician and it's going to bepretty stable.
And so I kind of chose thestable, safe route back then
Went to IU Med School anesthesiaresidency and was just doing
(04:39):
anesthesia for about 12 years orso.
But Jeff's heard this story toomany.
I've heard this story myselftell this story too many times,
but I feel like it's like themethodical approach Four years
of high school, four years ofcollege, four years of medical
school, four years of residency.
After about four years ofpracticing anesthesia, I was
(05:01):
kind of ready for a newchallenge.
I kind of get bored if I'm notbeing challenged and we didn't
start Wellbridge after fouryears of my practice but you
know, kind of building up thecourage and the idea behind it,
ended up in 2019 thinking thatthey don't teach you in medical
school about the payment process, about how that affects
people's financial health youknow, not only their physical
(05:23):
health, but financial health isa big thing Didn't really learn
anything about that.
So when I realized that I'mkind of complicit in a system
that is really backwards and notat all like you would think
things should work as far as thepayment process and how things
go in that sense, heard aboutthe Surgery Center of Oklahoma
and what they were doing therewith, you know, totally changing
(05:43):
around how people pay forsurgery and how they can bundle
everything together and it costsless.
It's not part of a hospitalsystem.
Jeff and I found out about thatin 2019.
And I guess it was 2017 backthen and said, hey, I really
think we can do this.
We can really make a difference.
So for me, you know, I feellike, yes, physicians do you
(06:04):
know really any physician thatthey're going to make a
difference, as long as you'redoing the right thing.
There are some that, I suppose,do the wrong thing but make it a
difference in people's lives,health wise.
But I was really, like I said,honestly, kind of bored with
that and wanting to take it onestep further and really kind of
create a new way that patientscould get to the OR and as far
(06:25):
as how patients find their wayto the OR, I had a lot of
Thanksgiving dinners andChristmas dinners and that sort
of thing.
I have family and friends thatasked me suggestions on who to
work with or who to go to as faras a surgeon is for any kind of
surgery, and you know that wasjust something that I kind of do
for family and friends to beable to extend that to try to
(06:47):
get a group of surgeons togetherwe really want to make a
difference, who really do betterthan average job and can
control the price and the wholepayment model.
Like that it's just.
It's just awesome to be able todo that, and to do it with your
best friend is is even better.
You're doing great, eric, but,jeff, has it been an hour?
Has it been an hour?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
yeah, we're there.
I'm just here because of themustache.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And the buffalo in the background.
I guess it'd be a bison maybe.
But anyway, jeff, you couldshare with us a little bit about
your journey professionally, orreally just getting into
college and professionally andwhat did that look like?
What was your journey up intothat moment in 2017 where you
guys professionally startedhaving conversations?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, you know.
Going back to Eric talkingabout fourth grade, you know I
don't.
I don't think a lot's changedwith he and I since since fourth
grade.
Really, you know, just gottenolder and slightly more mature,
but still the same old easygoingguys and like to joke around.
So it's kind of fun in aprofessional setting to be able
to keep it light with yourbusiness partner, and some
(07:51):
people are thrown off by thatuntil they know we've been best
friends since fourth grade.
So I went to college.
I was really focused on sports,as you know, and I remember you
were a baller Ben, you reallywere sports, as you know, and I
remember you were a baller ben,you really were the summer camp,
like you and and neff, andthere's a handful full of you
guys, uh, little ballers.
So I, you know, I was veryfocused on sports.
(08:14):
So I went to all of it nazareneuniversity and played, played
some basketball there, or atleast viewed the games from the
bench, um, so I didn't see thecourt a whole lot, but it was a
great view from there front row.
I didn't really know.
I spent the summers playingbasketball too.
Between college I was abusiness major, which made sense
for me.
(08:34):
But my last year of collegenumber one I didn't really love
my basketball coach and I didn'treally love him telling me what
to do all the time See, seethat.
And I didn't really love himtelling me what to do all the
time See, see that.
And I've got the specialcomputer.
So I realized I didn't reallylike him telling me what to do.
I like to use my naturalinstincts on the court versus
running a set offense.
(08:55):
And then, senior year ofbusiness school, we did a
business plan and you had tostart a business and I thought,
hey, this is pretty cool, I likethis.
And I got to start figuring outwhat I'm actually going to do
with my life and so I startedthinking through it and so I
came out of school wanting toown my own business and make my
own way and make my owndecisions, and so that's really
(09:16):
my path into entrepreneurship.
So I've had a business for 23years in the printing industry
and my journey kind of startswith Wellbridge obviously the
same time as Eric at his pool in2017, when my insurance had
gone up a lot and I just startedwith the only person that I
(09:38):
knew, my best friend, eric, andit was all his fault that my
rates were going up because ofhe's a doctor, right?
You know, I didn't know, I hadno idea, and I don't think most
business owners do know whereall the money is going.
And you know, we have a betteridea now, but yeah, that was the
start of Wellbridge for me.
Eric was wanting to get intobusiness and I said, well, we
should do something in medicineand figure out how to help the
(10:01):
system, you know, be lessbloated and try to lower costs.
And he said yes.
I said yes, and and that'swhere the the Wellbridge piece
started.
So it was really from my othercompany and the health insurance
was going up, so ourdeductibles were going up and I
didn't really feel like we weregetting anything better medical
(10:22):
care wise.
And so, in business as anentrepreneur, it makes no sense
to me.
If I'm paying more, I shouldhave a better experience, and
I'm not.
Actually, I thought it wasgetting worse for my employees,
and so that's what entrepreneursdo, right, you see a hole in
the system and you fill thathole.
So that's kind of the quickversion of my side of it.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
So, jeff, something that just came to my mind as you
were talking, with what you'redoing with Wellbridge versus the
industry that you really like,so to your entrepreneurial roots
, you are in an industry inprinting that is being disrupted
, right, and you are launchinginto an industry as the
(11:04):
disruptor.
What were lessons learned asyou kind of look at both of
those scenarios of, like youknow, kind of being on both
sides of the coin?
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Yeah, I think they're , you know, being disrupted in
different ways.
But so to really kind of seethe path of, you know, the
printing industry that's beenaround forever, right, think
about Heidelberg presses andwhatnot and what's happening
there, you know, definitely hashelped me to understand where
medical which I don't think isreally personally in my opinion,
hasn't really has just startedto be disrupted.
(11:35):
It kind of helps to have alittle bit of experience and
vision, you know, into wherethings are heading and what
landmines you're going toprobably have to step on, and
that not everybody you know hardlesson not everybody is going
to be your friend when you'redisrupting a bloated system that
has a lot of dollars attachedto it, right.
(11:57):
So if you're upsetting theirapple cart with where their
money stream's coming from andthat money but that money stream
needs to be disrupted for theeveryday American, you know you
might have some people that stoptalking to you for sure.
So that's, that's been kind ofinteresting.
But yeah, I think one hashelped prepare me for the other
for sure.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So what did that look like?
What was the official openingday?
If you will, opening not likebaseball, I guess surgery would
be a little different.
But what was like?
The grand opening?
What date was that forWellbridge?
Speaker 4 (12:27):
It was one of those days, and then I knew what it
was, until Jeff kept saying thewrong date on the specific exact
date, and now it's gotten tothe point where I can't remember
which one is which, but Ithought it was December 2nd 2021
, but it was either the secondor the fourth.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Yeah, we'll go with the second for Eric's purposes
here there we go.
The day before, our gal at thefront desk decided to quit after
one day.
So you know, you got to do whatyou got to do.
You got to run the front desk.
So I was running the front deskday one for a couple weeks
until I could find a replacement.
I remember the day before Eric,and this is one of my proudest
moments.
I remember the day before Ericand this is one of my proudest
(13:03):
moments was out in the parkinglot with his leaf blower blowing
off the sidewalk in the parkinglot so it would look good.
You know, day one, that wasawesome.
I was like now that's a realentrepreneur right there.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, hey, don't get second chance at a first
impression, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Right, exactly, you know.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
He didn't like those books in college, I got to do
the.
You know, didn't like thosebooks in college, I got to do
the, uh, you know.
So we did one case the firstweek and then we did two cases
the second week and then we, youknow, go on to uh, you know, I
think we did a 150 cases, so oneof the previous, you know, a
couple months so, but I rememberthat first case.
I, you know, and I had donethis for a while.
I've been doing it for maybewhat?
(13:45):
14 years at this point.
So I've done over 10,000anesthetics and I don't remember
being more nervous for ananesthetic than the first one we
did here.
And it's no different.
It's doing the same thing, samepeople around that I worked
with before.
And I think back of that nowbecause now it's just like
normal here.
There'd be surgeries all thetime here.
(14:05):
But you know, it was prettycool that first day just
realizing, hey, like we savedthis person probably $6,000 on
their arm surgery.
But you know, which is reallycool.
But you know, we did it allourselves, we put all this
together and we actuallydelivered great care to a
patient at a reasonable rate.
And that was just the start ofthings to come.
(14:25):
That was a really cool.
I'll never forget that.
That first day, that first caseWhile it's just like all the
other ones that I ever did itwas pretty cool to be able to
say, hey, we, we did this, I didthe anesthetic.
Jeff was at the front desk.
I think we had four employeesmaybe at that point.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Yeah, it was pretty cool, I had to go back.
It's the only time I've everbeen in the OR.
I had to go back, bringsomething back there or
something I can't remember what,and that's the first and last
time I've ever been to the OR.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
And that first patient has had two family
members come back.
Eric, do you think?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
you could have been in this position had you not
picked the anesthesiologistspecialty no no.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
I do not.
I think there's a couple ofreasons.
One is maybe not the bestreason, but we really did model
ourselves after the surgerycenter of Oklahoma.
We don't do everything the same.
There are a few differences.
But I don't know that we wouldhave thought of this if we
hadn't heard about what Dr KeithSmith was doing in Oklahoma and
met with him, talked with himand have him be really a helpful
(15:23):
kind of guiding person to helpus out with this.
He's an anesthesiologist and I'man anesthesiologist, so I think
it's not just because he is ananesthesiologist.
I think the reason he was ableto do it is because he knew a
lot of surgeons as ananesthesiologist.
Like Jeff said, he had a frontrow seat to watching the Olivet
basketball games.
I had a front row seat toseeing basically all the
surgeries on downtown and on thenorth side of Indianapolis for
(15:47):
12 years.
Like I really knew pretty muchall of us, all the surgeons that
worked with all of them.
Nowadays you know the ones Idon't know, they're kind of
usually ones that have come outin the last several years or a
few years that I've not workedwith before.
But to be able to do that andsee all those folks like you
kind of hey, this is a, we got ateam here, we can put this team
together and create a winningwinning culture and a winning
(16:09):
winning team.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
How did that work?
So did you come on full-time?
And then how do you attract orhow did you at the beginning,
and how has it changedattracting these surgeons who
are did they have to beindependent, or, some of them,
employed by hospitals?
How did you get the free agentsand what does that look like
for them?
Speaker 4 (16:26):
It would be crazy if we had not had these
conversations before we started.
We are a little crazy, but notthat crazy.
So when we're thinking aboutthis, we're like, hey, you know,
let's poke holes in this thing,like why would this not work?
It makes so much sense andthat's what when we tell going
to put it up the other one, well, you know, when this one's
busting out which hopefully willbe soon but it makes so much
(16:48):
sense, but we were poking holesin it and so so I'm going over
to it, going around to all okay,well, who can we talk to with
ENT, who can talk to with allthe different specialties that
we wanted to cover, to reallyhave a good offering to an
employer or anybody needingsurgery?
And so I don't know, I don'treally know probably no.
(17:12):
200 different surgeons thatI've worked with, like on a at
least you know, somewhat, youknow non-irregular basis, and
had conversations with maybe 20of them, just to see, hey, what
if?
What if we had a surgery centerthat we would give you the
patients?
So we would give you patientsthat we get, and the patients
are coming to us for reasons ofquality and price and you know
we want you here because of yourquality.
What if we were to pay you moreto do a surgery here than, say,
(17:36):
anthem or UnitedHealthcare orwhatever payer, certainly
Medicare, medicaid would pay you, cade.
What would pay you?
Because if we're controllingthe bundle as far as well, we're
just controlling the bundle wecan really control the pieces of
that pie and reconcile what inIndiana is a problem the
surgeons getting you know bottom10 of reimbursement in the
country and the facilitiesgetting the top 10, usually top
(17:59):
five and enough.
You know people like Jeff was in2017, kind of cynical to the
physicians in healthcare.
Some of them are.
You know people like Jeff wasin 2017, kind of cynical to the
physicians in health care.
Some of them are, you know allabout the money and are jaded by
the system, but still a lotreally really do want to do the
right thing, really want to helppeople and are passionate about
(18:20):
doing something like this.
And so, for a couple of reasonsobviously, if we were going to
say, hey, we're going to giveyou patients, that's gaining
market share and we're going topay you more, that's more
revenue.
And also then you add in thatmost people that want to go,
they go into medicine.
They do want to help people.
I can't say there are no jerks,because we all know that there
are, but you're kind of playingat that part of them that was
(18:41):
always probably there when theywanted to go to medical school.
So those three things togetherI guess made sense for them and
thank goodness you know when weactually did it and they came
through and actually did come inand work with us, participate
with us.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
How many different physicians will perform at least
one surgery at Wellbridge thisyear and dive into that idea
that you know, in my mind I feellike so many of these docs have
been bought by hospitals.
They're W-2 employees of thesehospitals.
Are you having to find surgeonsthat are truly independent, or
have you found and discovered away to employ these folks?
(19:16):
Do their contracts allow themto perform some percentage of
their surgeries in a facilitylike Wellbridge?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Yeah.
So to answer the first question, I'm not sure I don't know the
exact answer, but probably Iwould guess 50 different
surgeons would be my guess.
And the second question yeah,almost all of them that there
are, I'd say 90, 95% of them areindependent surgeons, meaning,
like you said, todd, thatthey're, that they're not owned
by the hospital system.
The hospital systems have still, I think, as it is now, they
(19:46):
still have they can enforce thenon competes.
I think that was on the table.
I think it got thrown off likethe 11th hour.
But there are a couple thathave in their contract that
they're allowed to do somethingin their off time, their days
off of working at that hospitalsystem.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Have you had a story yet, anecdotally, where there's
a surgeon who maybe was beingsqueezed out of the marketplace
and the sheer presence of themodel and the facility of
Wellbridge has given them accessto clients, better income and
allowed them to now practicemedicine the way they want,
outside of a hospital system?
Speaker 4 (20:19):
I think probably the answer is yes.
They haven't come and told methat, but there are a couple
that it's been significant forthem, I bet.
But they have not said, hey,you're saving grace or anything
like that.
I wouldn't necessarily say thatwe are, but I think to some
extent.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yes, I guess the answer would be looking at that
period from, like the 2017, theidea to you know, the grand
opening jeff welcoming everyoneinto wellbridge from the front
desk.
What were some like milemarkers that stood out to you
around important things thathappened in that period and or
(20:55):
things that were wildlysurprising, that you were like,
whoa, didn't expect this.
What were some of those things?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I think I just watched Field of Dreams for the
first time in like 15 yearsrecently, and I told Eric I was
like when's the last time yousaw that man?
You got to watch it becausethat was us, you know.
Sure, we had, you know, casehere, case there in the
beginning, but it was like, hey,we built it.
And it was like, hey, didsomebody just say they needed a
surgery?
Did I hear something?
You know like, where'severybody at?
(21:28):
You know, and 2022 was rough,to say the least.
So, as the sales, you knowbusiness side of the Wellbridge
venture, you know all has to dowith the pipeline.
And so we're looking at thereferrals that come in each week
and really even before that itstarted just like landing one.
Because we're calling onself-funded plans right, and I
know you guys know that, butmaybe maybe those listening
don't understand that.
(21:48):
Because we're calling onself-funded plans right, and I
know you guys know that, butmaybe those listening don't
understand that that they're atrisk for their health plan,
right?
So business peers like myself,and so, with that you have to
get lives and that's in the dooras a business in order to for
one of those lives to actuallyneed surgery, and so first of
all we just had to land somebody.
City of Zionsville was ourfirst, and then we had to start
(22:08):
having people call us.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Who did the cold call to get that one?
Do you remember?
Speaker 3 (22:14):
You're breaking up.
I can't hear you.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Let me just go with my story please.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I set up a script.
I'll give Eric credit here.
I gave him a script and a listof United healthcare folks and
he started dialing and he wasthe only one that had success
that day.
So now I'll give you.
I'll give you credit there,buddy.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
My only success story , but it was that first day.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Step of the ball in motion.
Yeah.
So those referrals each week isreally what.
You know what.
I remember where we used to be.
If we got like five referralsin a week, I'm like here we go,
we're on to something here,right, and over the 4th of July
we had 47 referrals in a weekand a half.
I mean that just.
(23:01):
I mean that's just crazy rightto think about.
So that would be one of mine.
The other piece, you know, forme understanding as a business
owner, where is the dysfunction?
The TPAs.
Some TPAs have been a realsurprise to me.
On that.
They're actually part of thedysfunction.
I don't need to go into it alltoday, but I had a TPA at my
other, my printing company, ofwhich I've now fired that wasn't
(23:23):
paying Wellbridge and theydidn't know I was on both sides
of the coin and so I just letthis whole thing play out for
six months.
I went ahead and wrote a checkfrom the printing company to
Wellbridge because we needed thecash.
I said, eric, when we get paid,though, I deem that back, you
know, and to see that wholething play out over six months,
(23:45):
it was very interesting to me.
I think I might have actuallycalled one of you to ask you
like, why would a TPA not bepaying this bill?
And so called around kind of.
And then I got tired of themnot paying the bill and I had my
attorney send the letter thathey, the contract says you need
to pay in like 45 days orwhatever it was.
And boom, all of a suddenWellbridge got paid.
That was pretty shock.
That was a big shocker to methat even the TPAs can not all
(24:07):
of them obviously, but can bepart of the problem.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
What were some of those other challenges that
might have surprised you guys?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Eric, I'll throw it over to you as a new
entrepreneur.
I'm sure you've got a handful.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Oh yeah, I guess overall, like everybody's heard,
we really don't want toreinvent the wheel, right, jeff
being like the salesperson forWelbridge Surgical, and he
literally had to reinvent thewheel Because you know, jeff's
talking like about how you haveto get these lives, this is how
you get them, this is what yougo from there.
Well, we didn't know any ofthat.
Like literally, we were open,we had the ORs ready and we
(24:42):
didn't know any of that, and sowe really did have to reinvent
the wheel and Dr Keith didn'tknow that either, right?
Speaker 3 (24:46):
So when we called Dr Keith up, he's like we get our
referrals from the TPAs andwe're like, okay, I really think
day one was in the kitchen atmy house when I made the first,
dialed, the first phone call,which was Beck Seed, because I
had a contact there through apeer group that I was in charge
of, you know.
And also my first launch,talking about Wellbridge, was
(25:10):
with Utah.
I don't know if you rememberthat Thai restaurant we went to.
I remember it, yeah, and so youknow that's really day one for
me, not December 2nd or 4th orwhatever day that was, that we
are continuing to probably argueabout, eric and I for the rest
of time, but was really thatfirst sales call I thought you
were crazy then, and I prettymuch think you're crazy still.
(25:32):
It's the truth, there's no doubtabout it, anybody.
You all three know me, andthere's the crazy parts of me
for sure.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
I'm trying to think of the big surprise.
I don't think on the medicalside there's really much of a
surprise at all.
I think that if anything, itwas good surprises with at least
one one thing.
One of the things we wereworried about to build out our
prices so.
So the way I built out theprices were was okay, we know
how much we're going to pay theanesthesiologist, we know how
much we're going to sugar thatthey had a surgeon Pathology.
(26:03):
We luckily overhead we were notcovering all of our overhead at
first but luckily now we arewhat we were worried about was
like implants, like so all thesethe hospital systems have
really good must have you knowso much volume, they must have
great pricing with all thevendors and the implant folks
and we were warned about that.
Hey, you guys are gonna havesome problems with this.
It makes sense, right, like asmaller, because the independent
(26:25):
practitioners say you're a solopractice, you do not get
reimbursed as a physician nearlyas well as a big practice or
even a private equity ownedgroup gets even more usually, I
believe.
But we did not find that to bethe case.
We found that not only were thephysicians interested in
helping us out like the vendorsworked with us too, and probably
(26:46):
not because out of the goodnessof their heart.
It's probably because thehospitals don't care.
Hospitals are happy to have a$10,000 implant versus a $5,000
implant because they do a costplus anyway, and so they're
going to charge more.
They can charge more and makemore.
We're not built around thatmodel.
We are built around we want tocreate the best value for our
clients and built around thatmodel we are built around, we
(27:07):
want to create the best valuefor our clients and luckily.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I mean, it was a good , good surprise.
Yeah, so we were part of adocumentary project that was
released a little over a yearago called it's Not Personal,
it's Just Healthcare, and one of, like, the main things we talk
about in that is we all thinkthat the healthcare system is
broken, but the more and moreyou dig, the more and more you
(27:29):
realize that it may be broken,but it's actually built like
this by design and you knoweveryone in the supply chain is
doing really well with thesystem the way it is.
Is that something that you guystended to bump into time and
time again?
(27:49):
Or, as you guys were, trying tobreak out of that system or
what?
what are your thoughts to that?
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Yeah, my thought is that that's a hundred percent
correct.
I mean, if nobody wants thesystem to change, they've got
the lobby, they've got the moneybehind it, they've got the
lobbyists behind them, and soain't nothing.
I mean, people are going tocomplain all the time, but the
people who are really makingmoney off it are probably
pulling most of the strings, andso I don't think it's really
going to change terribly muchuntil I mean, you have to like I
(28:21):
think it starts with employers.
I really, really, really do.
I think it starts withemployers.
I really, really, really do,because when we opened, people
were like, oh, this is great forthe self-pay people, the cash
pay people, because they don'thave insurance, which is the
magical giving tree, right?
No, they don't have insuranceand so they actually care what
things cost.
And I'm like, yeah, that makessense.
But what we did know before westarted about self-funded
(28:43):
employers, that's just anaggregate of self-payers.
They actually care.
So it's not just our cashpayers that we make sense to,
it's anybody who cares about howmuch it costs.
Unfortunately, tons of peopledon't care about how much it
costs and they just love tocomplain.
They don't want to do anythingabout it, mostly probably
because they don't understand it.
I hear that all the time.
But self-funded employers,which are you know what?
(29:04):
70% of people who haveinsurance through their employer
are self-funded, something likethat.
You guys would know better thanme.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
State of Indiana.
That's right In Indiana, yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
That's a ton of people and they're in the same
boat.
They care about how much itcosts, they being the employer,
right, the CEOs, cfos, and ifyou can create a mechanism to
make the member care, which theyshould and have a win-win-win,
that's what we've done.
But all along the way, peopleputting barriers up for that,
which is what I think whatyou're talking about for sure,
(29:35):
along with some brokers that arenot named Connor Insurance
broker advisors that aredisincentivized to talk to their
client about a WellbridgeSurgical zero-tier model.
So the TPAs, like Jeff said,the hospital systems, like I
believe, can't stand us.
I mean, they tried to get mefired.
Ascension did when we werestarting this.
They didn't even employ me, butwith my anesthesia group, they
(29:59):
were pressuring my anesthesiagroup to fire me.
So and they still are hostiletowards us.
Even the, even some of thesurgeons who own and some of the
other, the surgery centers whodon't.
Even their model is not at alllike this, but they're
benefiting off, like you said,ben, they're benefiting off of
the way things are, they'rehappy with it.
They're getting fat and theydon't want to.
They don't want things tochange.
Hop X surgeons, that that youwould think you know, or just
(30:22):
just want the best, best thatyou would think.
You know.
We just want the best forpatients.
They do not.
They want the best for theirpocketbooks.
Everybody is complicit in it.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
We touched on it briefly but like the pricing
model and more or less how thatcompares to what like an
everyday American or Hoosierwould pay at a different
facility, what value they get atWellbridge.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
Actually, I first start off with the surgeon's
amount which we pay them.
Like I said, it's a formula weuse but we pay them generally
almost all the time, you know,significantly more than a
commercial payer would pay thesurgeon.
As far as a professional feegoes Anesthesia, we pay a decent
amount for that.
Add those two together becausethose are known quantities per
CPD code, and then any pathology.
(31:08):
If that's in there, that's notusually too expensive.
Add those together, then thesupplies, implants.
Add those.
So those are actual numbers thatwe can put together and say,
hey, we have a number.
And then how long does thatprocedure take?
We know what our overhead isand what we want to have as a
small margin per hour and wejust kind of plug that into
there and in the end, well, it'sgotten more sophisticated.
(31:29):
At first it was not thatsophisticated, but in the end
the price that we have and wecome up with.
We've had independent TPAs,we've had UnitedHealthcare,
looked at a lot of differentthings, different folks have
looked at it and it's anywherefrom like 45 to 60 percent,
depending where you are inIndiana, 45 to 60 percent less
than the average cost.
And this is cost, not billedamounts.
(31:50):
It would be a way higherdiscount off the billed amount.
But as far as what sayUnitedHealthcare Anthem, just
average commercial reimbursementis going to be about double of
what the cost is at Walgreens.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Well, just to wrap that up, I mean you talked about
physicians are actually gettingpaid better, which to highlight
that Indiana's in the bottom10% of physician comp across the
country.
So our physicians are gettingpaid better, the ones who are
actually delivering care.
You know the anesthesiologiststhat are.
You know they're putting you tosleep, but what they really get
(32:25):
paid for is waking you up, andso those folks are still getting
paid.
You're covering supplies.
So, ultimately, the things thatI'm hearing, that are the
variables that are making up,depending on which way you look
at it.
Either doubling the cost orcutting it in half is wrapped up
in facility margin andinsurance profit.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
And maybe administrative inefficiencies.
I would say too yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
That goes back to insurance profit, I guess, more
or less, maybe the insurance andfacility combined, right, right
, yeah, because most hospitalsare employing, like you know,
200 people just to doink aroundwith the insurance companies,
which that's just total madness,but anyway.
So you guys are delivering thatkind of value just by getting
rid of the things that peoplehate anyway, which is, you know,
(33:16):
a really high charge for rentand for the facility and an
insurance company just creatingmargin for adding really no
value outside of a, you know,the financial credit card of a
health insurance plan.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Eric, did you guys ever calculate on an annual
basis the aggregate that youestimate you've saved your
patients?
Because I would think thatwould be the number that the
hospitals would put a target onyour back when you talk about
trying to get doxed, if you will, from your old anesthesiology
group and then the follow-upquestion is you kind of
mentioned trying to get removedfrom there what is the worst you
(33:51):
guys have been treated?
What are some situations thathave happened where you're like
wait a minute, am I gettingtargeted here?
And we have not done it inaggregate?
Speaker 4 (33:58):
We haven't done it.
Yeah, yeah, certain folks, likeyou know, some of the bigger
clients that we have and oranybody who wants to know we do
either quarterly or yearlyanalyses and say, well, this is
what you spend at Wellbridge andyou have to kind of hypothesize
of where, if you would havegone somewhere else, this is how
much it would have cost.
You can always tell them howmuch they would have saved if we
(34:19):
see what they actually spentsomewhere else.
But if they come here you haveto hypothesize, hey, where would
you go?
But if you say it's 40 to 60,say 50% more, yeah, we have done
that for different companies,I'd say for sure, last year it
was over a million dollars, butI just don't know, because I
know it was like, yeah, it hadto be way over that, just
because I guess what I looked at.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
We did 5.3 million last year, Right.
So for 50% less you can kind ofstart doing some basic math.
That saves roughly 5 mil, right?
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Right, but I would go with the second part of that.
The moment that I'll alwaysremember is I was helping coach
my daughter in soccer at GrandPark and I had a couple of
missed calls from the managingmember of my anesthesia group.
I was on the board as well andcalled him afterwards and said
hey, the president of thehospital wants you fired.
(35:12):
And so that was, and I thinkthat was like it was less than a
week after we put our websiteup.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Literally.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
It's just ridiculous, it's terrible, it's offensive
to say that you and see, it'sjust ridiculous, it's terrible,
it's offensive to say that youknow we're trying to do
something that's good and theyare clearly not having it and
that's you know.
Whether that was one person,whether that was the whole
administration, I'm not sure,but that was my moment.
If you're asking for a moment,todd, that was my moment.
Like, oh my gosh, like peoplehate this and this is like we're
(35:51):
only doing a good thing andthey are not having it.
Um, that was long after that.
Definitely eye-opening andscary to me.
Really.
How long after that did youleave the practice?
I lasted another seven months.
Yeah, I mean the.
The idea was always to.
I mean we didn't necessarilywant to leave the practice, we
just wanted to kind of do thisas well, but just untenable.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I love when those stories get exposed because it
just shows how dirty and nastypeople could be.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Yeah, Sure, I was by the fire with the attorneys that
night, sitting by the fire atmy house on the phone with the
attorney until about 1030,trying to figure out, like, as a
marketer, it's great when yourwebsite gets noticed in four
days, but not in this way,obviously.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
And I'd have surgeons stop me and talk to me, people
who were basically like, werevery super friendly and
collegial before and really justseemed like I had done
something very personal to them.
And it was just, you know,creating this free market
surgery center idea.
We hadn't even opened it yet.
Free market surgery center idea.
(36:47):
We hadn't even opened it yet.
There was a couple physicianslounge at 86th street and one of
the surgery centers that werejust awkward conversations.
It's like, hey, I'm just doingthis because I think it's a good
idea, I think it'll help peopleand, yeah, they were very
confrontational and really bumpsabout it.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Just so, encouraged by you guys, keep just
continuing and forward and goingthrough the fire just to do the
right thing.
So congrats to you guys on that.
What's on your roadmap ofwhat's next?
Speaker 3 (37:14):
I think the vision is Wellbridge Health being able to
continue to help in other areasoutside of you know outpatient
surgery, so infusions is onthere, rx would be on there.
Anything that the self-fundedplan doesn't have visibility
into would like to have onecompany to go to to handle it.
(37:35):
I think we'll be becoming astrusted advisors in the market,
and my experience outside ofWellbridge has shown that when
you do the right thing and youbecome a trusted advisor, that
your clients take care of youright.
And so, yeah, overall, I thinkWellbridge Health is something
that we're looking at right nowand expanding into other areas
of the spend.
(37:55):
We think we're about 20% of thespend.
On average, outpatient surgeryis kind of what we see.
I don't know if you guys wouldagree with that, but so what are
those other areas that we canaffect?
So, and then other locations aswell, for on the surgical side.
But even recently, as we had aboard meeting and even you know
(38:16):
Wellbridge data, we think thatwe've got pretty good data
collected and we think that weunderstand it well, so we're
looking into that piece of ittoo.
So I don't know if that helpsanswer your question, but any
way that we can be of help iswhat we're looking for.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Sounds like your brand is not only around the
idea of value but around theidea of transparency.
So if you look at the thingsthat are unclear or, you know,
seem to be, the most egregiousmisaligned incentive is your
opportunity to go in, add valueand bring transparency to the
(38:55):
situation 100.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
My hope is that hopefully we won't be the only
ones in the market.
You know the only free marketsurgery center that had that
post their prices.
Like people just don't evenknow.
You can go into a room ofemployers and they don't even
know what a gallbladder shouldcost, what a colonoscopy should
cost.
They just have no idea andthey're paying for it and it's
such a high line item on theirexpense and their expenses for
the year.
We only become more valuablewhen people actually know and
(39:19):
they can look and look and seewhat they're spending on.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Absolutely so look and see what they're spending on
, absolutely so.
We usually close our episodewith asking our guests two
questions, so I'm gonna ask thefirst one to each of you guys.
Jeff, we'll start with youwhat's a risk that you have
taken that has changed your life?
Speaker 3 (39:38):
I think it goes back to the beginning of my story,
coming out of college becomingan entrepreneur.
I've been a full commissionsguy for 23 years.
It's a pretty big risk but hardwork, you know, pays off and so
you know I wouldn't changeanything and obviously love the
freedom of it as well.
That was a big risk, you know,could have gone the other way,
(39:59):
easily gone the other way overdifferent phases of the last 23
years.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Eric, what about you?
I would say it's the same asJeff's, Mine is just you know
however, many years later, I wasin a very good situation with
the group that I was with beforeand I thought there was
something else.
I thought I was meant to dosomething else and kind of
stepping off from a verycomfortable situation.
It's one thing if you hey, yougot like no choice, you're in a
(40:24):
corner and you got to dosomething.
It's different when like hey,this is, this is good, Things
are going great, but I, I meanso it takes a lot to be able to
say, hey, I really think I needto make this, make this jump,
that's great.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
We've got a second question, but before we get to
it, I want to personally thankyou from myself and also from
the two plus million people inIndianapolis has been mentioned
earlier.
Your guys' risk is a benefitand a treasure to everybody in
this city because they getquality service at a lower price
.
And you just mentioned it, eric.
You said, hey, you know, itlooks bright for me today, but I
(40:58):
had to take a hit.
Not only that, you had to takea relational hit and you had to
be threatened.
And what I've found in life isthat whenever you step out, you
challenge what people are saying, when you know they're lying,
when you know they're stealing,when you know they're cheating,
is that there's always a cost,and you guys have had to suffer
that cost, and I hate that foryou guys, but I love it for the
outcome.
I love it from where it's going.
(41:19):
So, with that in mind, sinceyou guys are now professionals
in the areas of taking risk andturning over tables, if you will
, eric, I'll start with you sowe can finish with Jeff what is
yet unfinished, that you havethe resolve to complete, dr Eric
Inman.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
Well, first of all, I really appreciate that, Todd.
It really means a lot.
Honestly, I'd say that whatwe've made it, we've kind of
turned the corner business-wise.
One thing that Jeff and I don'thave to worry about is not
having the resolve.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Jeff, what's left yet unfinished, that you, my friend
, have the resolve to complete.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Yeah, I just want to say too, thank you for real,
todd, for you saying that Ithink you understand on some
level what we've been throughand to just be able to do
something good for the community, you know, and so that really,
really is awesome.
I appreciate saying that Ericspelled out the Wellbridge
better than I could, so I won'tgo there.
But I'll say for me personally,what's not been resolved is I
(42:19):
am still Dude Ranch.
That's all I got to say.
Dude Ranch, I got to get that,I got to get that figured out.
So it's coming, it's coming,you just wait.
But still a ways out fromowning a Dude Ranch.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Well, I thought you were crazy at that Thai
restaurant.
I think you're crazy today.
It seems to be a pattern thatwhenever I think you're crazy,
things start happening, so Ican't wait to be invited out to
that Dude Ranch Interesting.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yep, things start happening, so I can't wait to be
invited out to that dude ranch.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, you bet.
Well, guys, uh, reallyappreciate you joining us today.
Again, known you guys for can'tbelieve it 30 years at this
point and uh, uh, I've alwayslooked up to you guys and I'm
still due to this day what youguys are doing with well bridge
and how you guys raise yourfamilies and everything else
like that.
But wanted to thank everyonewho joined us today and for
listening in for another episodeof Risk and Resolve.
(43:08):
We will catch you next time.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Thanks for tuning in to Risk and Resolve.
See you next time.
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