Brett Billups, CHRO of Marketplace Chaplains and author of Biblical HR, shares his 30-year journey in human resources and how he bridges his Christian faith with workplace challenges.
• Stumbling into HR after seeing disconnects between management and employees at a manufacturing company
• Writing Biblical HR as a personal guide before publishing it to help others apply faith to specific workplace situations
• Challenging the notion that Christians should avoid accountability—holding people accountable in a godly way is actually biblical
• Approaching conflict resolution with the understanding that resolving conflict is ultimately God's job
• Reframing work-life balance as having one unified life dedicated to honoring God in everything
• Explaining how workplace chaplains provide confidential support that traditional HR departments often cannot
• Discussing the challenges of writing about diversity from a biblical perspective
• Sharing how the book led to his current position at Marketplace Chaplains
If you're struggling to align your faith with your work, remember that biblical principles represent how we were designed to function—they work whether we label them as religious or not.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Risk and Resolve, and now for
your hosts.
Ben Conner and.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Todd Hufford.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Risk and Resolve pod
with your co-hosts, Ben and Todd.
We have a special guest today,Brett Billups, who's the CHRO of
Marketplace Chaplains, as wellas CEO and author of Biblical HR
(00:27):
.
Brett, Thanks for being with ushere today.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Oh, thanks for having me.
It's a joy to be here, thankyou.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Awesome let's just start out If you could tell the
audience just a little bit aboutyourself and your background.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Professionally, I've been in human resources for
about 30 years in both privateand public companies in a
variety of different roles, bothas a support mid-level manager
but also leading the HR functionfor the last two companies that
I've been.
One was a large constructioncompany of about 6,000 employees
and now I'm a CHRO forMarketplace Chaplains.
(01:02):
I have experience in publiccompanies craft foods for about
13 years, mondelez Internationaland Iron Mountain.
That was a wonderful learningexperience from a public company
standpoint.
Got exposed to a lot ofdifferent things.
Personally, I've been marriedfor 36 years and a couple of
(01:23):
weeks to a Green Bay, wisconsin,girl, and actually we lived up
there for about 15 years andthree of our four kids were born
there.
We moved to Dallas in 2006 withKraft Foods and we have four
children.
The two middle ones are marriedand I have four grandkids.
(01:46):
So my daughter and they're withone daughter, so she has four
boys, eight and under.
Wow, we've kept them overnighta couple of times.
But yeah, it takes a lot out ofus, of us old people.
From a spiritual standpoint, Igrew up on a farm and ranch in
the middle of Texas.
We went to church every Sunday,but that was just what you were
(02:10):
supposed to do in the middle ofTexas and I wasn't a believer.
I didn't realize what thatlooked like.
I just felt like if I justfollowed all the rules, then I
was doing what I was supposed todo as a Christian.
It wasn't until I got reallysick about 20 years ago that I
(02:30):
started getting more seriousabout my faith and when I did
that we started homeschoolingour kids and growing in Chrissy
and I started growing in ourrelationship and then really
understanding what it looks liketo be a godly husband and
father, and we have been growingever since.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Wow, thanks for sharing that.
So you had a face-to-face withyour creator moment being sick.
That really changed your faith.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I did Very much so.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, so what led you into the HR field?
I'm guessing that you didn'twake up or, you know, maybe you
weren't taught at a young ageabout HR and that was
potentially your dream from theget go.
So how did?
How did you get involved in thefield of HR?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
That's a great question.
I kind of stumbled into it.
Stumbled into it.
I graduated from Texas TechUniversity with a degree in
advertising and minored inmarketing, after growing up on a
farm and ranch, which was kindof unusual.
And then when I got married, mywife's father owned a company in
Wisconsin and so I went to workin the operations part of that
(03:41):
company.
It was a small polyethylene bagmanufacturing company and when
he sold the company the newowners asked me if I wanted to
stay in operations or move intohuman resources.
And I saw a need in humanresources.
There were only about 80 people.
But I said, oh, I would like tohelp the people from a human
(04:01):
race standpoint.
I had no clue what I wasgetting myself into.
So the new owner brought one ofhis former HR people in to help
me build the HR function,establish an HR department, and
that's how I really got my start.
And from there I was with themfor about three or four years,
(04:29):
transferred to another smallprivate company, and then I was
there for about two years andthat's when I got on with Kraft
Foods from an HR standpoint attheir largest pizza
manufacturing plant in Wisconsin, and then that's where I cut my
chops from an HR standpoint.
I was with Kraft for about 14years.
I transferred to KraftCorporate in 2004, worked at
(04:49):
Kraft Corporate for about twoyears and then transferred in
the sales function to Texas inabout 2006.
And then, at 2013, transferredto Iron Mountain, which is
another public company, and thenI got asked to if I wanted to
leave the HR function for alarge employee-owned
(05:13):
construction company here inDallas, and I did that for about
five years before coming hereas the CHRO.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, you said you saw a need in HR or with the
people element at that firstrole.
What did that look like at thatpoint in time?
What need did you see thatyou're like?
I want to go to that.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, the need I saw was that I think there was a
disconnect between the ownersand the floor people and I
wanted to try and bridge thatgap as best that I could,
because I saw a lot of animositybetween the two and I wanted to
try and repair some of thatcommunication.
It wasn't tremendously bad, butI just saw that there was a gap
(05:54):
there that I wanted to try andfill.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So you obviously you recently wrote your book
Biblical HR, where it really islike a how-to guide.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour reason, or like what was
stirring in you to kind of startdoing that.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
What happened is I really kind of started writing
for myself, because about 10 or12 years ago, I really started
struggling with how to apply myfaith to my work.
And what does that look like?
Because I would go to church onSunday, listen to a wonderful
sermon, wonderful worship, andthen spend the rest of the day
(06:34):
dreading going back into theworkplace the next morning
because I knew what I had todeal with.
I knew there was a lot ofthings on my plate that I needed
to deal with and I would dreadit, and so I realized I needed
to take I bridged the gapbetween Sunday and Monday
morning.
And how do I do that?
And so I started looking at thespecific situations that I was
(06:55):
having to deal with from an HRstandpoint and then started
writing.
Okay, how do I deal with thesefrom a biblical standpoint?
Like dealing with a difficultboss, a difficult employee, a
difficult coworker, how to do aperformance review, how to
conduct an interview, all ofthese things from a biblical
perspective.
And so I just started writingfor my own benefit.
(07:18):
Okay, how do I deal with thisissue from a biblical
perspective?
And I would look at a passageof scripture, pull out the
biblical principles, and then Istarted writing what can I do
before, during and after thisparticular situation to bring
biblical principles to bear inspecific situations in the
(07:40):
workplace?
So I started writing it for myown benefit, so I could deal
with them.
And then a friend of mineencouraged me Brett, you need to
get this out and help peoplewith that.
And I said, ah, maybe when Iretire I'll put this in a book
form and do that.
He said, no, you probably needto do that now.
So I did.
I finished, I presented it to ahybrid kind of publishing
(08:05):
company, morgan James, and theyaccepted it right away and I
finished it and it was published.
It was something that was.
That was the risk for me was arisk of, okay, putting that out
there.
Okay, so is this really goingto benefit people or not?
(08:26):
Is it just the ramblings of acrazy HR guy that has been in
the business for far too long?
But it seems to resonate tocertain people.
That's all I wanted to do.
Okay, it helped me, but how canit help other managers or
believers in the workplace todeal with these specific issues?
Because one of the things thatI would deal with from an HR
(08:48):
standpoint, even from mid-levelmanagers how do I deal with this
specific situation?
And I would walk them throughhow to deal with them.
But they have scripture thatthey can also utilize to bridge
that gap.
And that's what I wanted to do.
I wanted to take people toscripture, take people to those
(09:09):
biblical principles to deal withthings that they may not have
an in-house counsel to deal with.
Brett, you mentioned it was arisk to put that book out there.
Can you identify what risks youfelt at that time?
What truly was at risk bypublishing that book out there?
Can you identify what risks youfelt at that time?
What truly was at risk bypublishing that story, those
ideas?
Well, because I've neverwritten a book before, so it was
(09:32):
one of those that, okay, I haveno clue what I'm doing, so I'm
just going to take a step infaith and just take one step at
a time and see what happens.
It's not one of those thingsthat, okay, I'm going to write a
book to get rich.
I mean that's yeah.
So it's one of those thingsthat I felt called to do and
(09:54):
called to help, and so is itgoing to help people or not?
The risk was saying somethinginaccurate, saying something
that was unbiblical, sayingsomething that would take people
off of the right course, and soI was very purposeful in being
(10:16):
as biblical, ideologically soundas possible.
I had a friend of mine who wasa pastor, went to seminary he
was one of the editors of thisas well and made sure that I was
theologically sound andbiblically sound as I started
presenting these things youmentioned I think I've got the
timeline right that it seemedlike halfway through your career
(10:38):
, or career thus far, your faithbegan deepening.
It seems like you had a seasonwith public companies of kind of
a stale faith, but it alsoseems like you had time at
public companies with a strongerfaith.
Do I have that timeline right?
Yeah, I think so, because whenI started writing the book,
(10:59):
that's when I was with one ofthe public companies and I
realized that you know thepublic company.
They have a tremendous amountof resources, sure, okay, so I
just relied on them so I coulddo that.
But then I started to see alittle bit of disconnect between
my faith and my work, andthat's when I just started.
You know there's got to be moreto it than just, and that's
(11:29):
when I just started.
You know there's got to be moreto it than just following
public company policy and lawsand regs and more than that.
And then, as I started gettinginto it, todd, I realized that
you know, I don't know,especially from a human
resources standpoint, how dopeople do it without the
discernment of the Holy Spirit?
People do it without thediscernment of the Holy Spirit.
I mean, it's like if you don'thave that, then all you have is
(11:50):
company policy and laws andcompliance and regulations and
all of that stuff.
But there's more to it thanthat.
There's a spiritual componentto everything that we do.
Were you working at one ofthose public companies when the
book was released?
Public companies when the bookwas released?
No, it was not released until Iwas leading the construction
company organization.
And was the company a faithforward company, or was that a
(12:13):
risk too?
There has some faith componentsto it.
It's Texas, dallas based.
There's a lot of faith basedpeople that are within the
organization, but it was still aprofit-driven organization.
Let me put it that way Since itwas a book about your
professional knowledge, asopposed to some off-topic
discussion, did you feel theneed and did you kind of run it
(12:50):
past?
You know, whoever you reportedto to kind of A, let them know,
b sort of get their tacitapproval?
No, I didn't.
It was one of those that, yeah,you're right, you know, putting
something like that out thereand I was made aware of that by,
actually, one of the companypresidents.
He knew about it.
So he said you're puttingyourself out there.
That's when you draw that linein the sand or you put that
(13:11):
stake in the ground.
I mean that's something youcan't come back from, especially
in the environment of thepolitical environment.
That was five years ago.
So that was a risk.
And putting that faithcomponent out there from an HR
standpoint, yeah, that was arisk.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
You know, I think it's interesting too.
I mean, HR is the culturalchampion for any business, not
only internally but also of,like, what bleeds in from
culture in general.
You know, political orotherwise, or social, that comes
into the company, right, right.
(13:53):
So how did you navigate whenyou put yourself out there like
that and you probably did beforethe book?
You put yourself out there ingeneral as your faith being
really important to you, as youmentioned earlier the.
You know how do I makedecisions without the Holy
Spirit?
Did you ever find yourselfgetting challenged about?
Well, you know you can't bringreligion into the workplace, or
(14:14):
how did you handle that?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Well, you don't have to.
What I've learned is that wewere created and designed to
operate by biblical principles.
We just were, and they work inthe workplace.
Whether we call them biblicalprinciples or not, that's just
how we were designed.
So when you purposely act andrespond in a godly, biblical way
(14:41):
, you don't have to call them.
This is from the Bible.
I'm operating from a religiousperspective.
Now, if somebody asks me howare you grounded?
What does that look like?
I'm a Christian.
That's how that's grounded, butthat's especially in the
workplace.
The first thing to do isoperate and manage by godly,
(15:03):
biblical principles because,again, that's how we're designed
, that's how we work, that's howthings function.
So when you do that, it honorsGod and you acknowledge him in
the way that you do that.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, honors the Lord and honors his image bearers.
So you're right, that naturalconnection so in the book and
honors his image bearers.
So you're right, that naturalconnection, so in the book.
Literally it is a manual.
It goes through those topicsthat are can be really difficult
and, if you don't mind, I'dlike to obviously want to
encourage all of our listenersto go get a copy.
It's a fantastic read.
I got through it quickly andI'm a slow reader.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Well, it's not one of those that you have to read
cover to cover.
I mean, it's one of those thatyou have a situation.
You turn to chapter 12, youturn to chapter.
That's right, and it's not oneof those.
That is a you sit down and readit all in its entirety.
It's just as you need it.
It's a reference.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Well, I think it's kind of interesting.
I think from an encouragingstandpoint.
It may be easy to live out yourbeliefs because everything is
great.
But I think what's interestingin this book?
It talks a lot about conflict.
Resolution is one of thechapters.
Managing poor performance isone of the chapters.
(16:20):
So we're talking about thingswhere there is like human
conflict, and how does the Biblereference behavior in those
areas?
What is your mindset aroundpursuing people in conflict or
even when there's poorperformance?
Just give us a little highlightof the framing around that Sure
(16:42):
.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I think the conflict resolution chapter is one of my
favorites.
It's probably one of the lastones that I wrote before
launching the book and one thingthat we have to realize is that
resolving conflict is God's job.
That's not my job.
I mean, sometimes I have atendency to think, hey, I've
(17:05):
been in HR for 30 years, I cansit these people down and we can
come to a mediation andresolution, but maybe not so
coming to the realization that Imay have to live and deal with
unresolved conflict in adifferent way, because it may
not happen.
God has to prepare the heartsto resolve conflict.
(17:28):
If it doesn't happen, then youhave to deal with the situation
from a behavioral standpoint anda performance standpoint rather
than a conflict resolutionstandpoint.
So that's the major thing thatI learned.
I share a story in a book wherea mentor of mine used to be an
(17:49):
executive for GE GeneralElectric and he had a conflict
with one of his coworkersanother divisional president,
divisional president and so theregion executive scheduled a
meeting with these twoindividuals him and this other
(18:09):
person he was having a conflictwith on a Saturday morning.
So they came to his office at 8am and on his conference table
he had a coffee pot and he saidI want you guys to sit down and
resolve your conflict, or and ifyou can't, I will resolve it in
my way.
They looked at each other aftera few minutes and said okay, we
(18:38):
got the message.
So it's contingent on theindividuals in their heart to be
able to resolve the conflict.
And the leader knew that hewasn't going to change their
hearts toward each other.
They had to do, he was going todeal with it.
If they couldn't change theirhearts, he was going to have to
deal with it from a performancestandpoint or behavioral
(18:58):
standpoint.
So that's probably one of thekey learnings from a conflict
resolution.
One of the key learnings from aconflict resolution.
Now for performance management.
One of the things that I havelearned as a believer in HR is
that sometimes believersstruggle with wanting to hold
people accountable, so theydon't want to be seen as
(19:20):
impatient or not gracious, notmerciful toward the person or
not forgiving toward the person.
But holding people accountableto godly behavior and godly
principles is biblical and so.
(19:40):
But you have to do that in agodly way, and approaching
accountability in a loving wayis actually very biblical, and
the more that you ignore it,you're not doing them a service.
You're actually encouraging theungodly behavior.
Be courageous enough in ourfaith and in our ability to
(20:05):
confront and hold peopleaccountable, but do it in a
godly, biblical, patient way,and that's what I tried to do in
the performance managementchapter.
Brett, you got any thoughts onhow Christians got there to that
point where they view it asthey have a hard time holding
people accountable.
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
(20:25):
Yeah, I think what happens isthat there's so many unknowns
these days because people cansue you for anything.
They can sue you for adiscrimination, they can sue you
for unlawful termination, sothere's a fear there of making
the wrong move, taking the wrongstep.
But on the flip side of that Iknow also going to be seeing
(20:47):
there's a fear of confrontationbecause I just don't know how
the tools to do it.
So it's a double-edged sword.
But you made the observationthat you felt like Christians
have a harder time than thatthan maybe a non-believer would.
Any thoughts on why you thinkthat is that, than maybe a
non-believer would?
Any thoughts on why you thinkthat is?
Well, we want to be seen as, Ithink, a loving, patient, soft,
(21:14):
kind-hearted person, and holdingpeople accountable will make
people mad.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, Joyful heart doesn't seem like someone that's
in a holding line right a toughtime.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Personally, I can't do it.
But they're going through adivorce.
How can I hold them accountableto their job performance?
Well, there's other things thatyou can do to address that.
So the major thing that I seefrom a believer standpoint is
just not understanding numberone, that it's our biblical
responsibility to hold peopleaccountable to godly behavior.
(22:05):
But also, your being notaddressing it is actually being
unkind, unloving.
It's more self-focused andother-focused.
It's hard for you but it'sreally the best thing for them.
Correct, when you think aboutthe book and you put it out in
the world and, like you said, itwas a risk.
It probably went places younever imagined that could be.
(22:29):
From a geographic standpoint,it could be just to the highest
levels of some big company thatyou never thought it would go.
It's still in its flight pathof going out there in the world.
Maybe tell us a couple storiesof where it's gone that you
never would have thought itwould have gone.
Well, I will tell you that froma.
What God has taught me is thatthis is his book, not mine.
(22:51):
So after I left theconstruction company, I braced
down on my own.
I, after the book launched, Isaid, okay, I'm going to use
this as a launch for aconsulting company or something
along those lines, and it justnever took off because this is a
very niche kind of resource forpeople.
(23:14):
But as a result of my companyand the book, one of the
individuals from MarketplaceChaplain reached out to me, said
hey, we want to tap into yournetwork.
We're Marketplace Chaplains.
If you would recommend us toyour network, that would be
helpful.
And then I just asked and thenI learned that they were looking
for a CHRO.
Two weeks later I was workinghere.
(23:35):
Wow, and then what happened asa result of that is that the
field people at MarketplaceChaplains were giving this to
all the clients and in there theHR people they were supporting,
and it got out more than Icould have.
(23:56):
Yeah, you found yourdistribution partner, didn't you
?
Yeah, and it's like unknowingly, I mean.
So God said no, that's not theway I want to distribute it,
here's the way I want todistribute it.
So that's kind of amazing.
And how many calls for a sequelhave you had?
A couple.
The sequel would be this waswritten primarily to basic
(24:19):
businesses.
I think there's another a needfor biblical HR for churches,
ministries and nonprofits.
So, because that's a little bitdifferent animal.
So I have thought about OK, howdo I need to customize this to
appeal to that?
What about a book that appealsto the employee, to the team
member, to help them lead upfrom a biblical view to their HR
(24:44):
?
That may have some pieces ofthe puzzle, but maybe not all
the pieces of the puzzle.
And some of that is I try toappeal to Christians in the
workplace at whether you're anemployee or mid-level manager.
So some of the chapters kind ofappeal to employees that are
dealing with their boss oremployees that are dealing with
(25:06):
specific situations in theworkplace.
So I tried to deal with some ofthat.
So some of the audience kind ofcrosses over a little bit and
so, from an employee standpoint,I tried to speak to Christians
in the workplace, regardless ofwhat level that they were.
That's what I tried to do.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
A couple of chapters I wanted to kind of double click
into as well.
They kind of relate is talkabout like workplace stress and
work-life balance.
I was even just listening to apodcast even last night just
about how stressed just ourculture is and just how empty
people's tanks are as you lookat addressing kind of that
(25:49):
element more, even like themental health side of business
and how businesses can comealong their work force.
If you wouldn't mind just kindof double clicking into that
stress element as well as worklife balance.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
You know I'm going to combine those two and I'll tell
you why Is when I startedresearching work-life balance.
Work-life balance is a misnomer, it doesn't really exist,
because you know why we have onelife.
We don't have a life at work ora personal life.
We have one and that is am Ihonoring God and am I honoring
(26:26):
Him in everything that I do,personally and professionally?
So to try and separate thosetwo, that's what I was doing for
years.
I was trying to separate thosetwo, which caused a lot of
stress.
So if I just focus on asingular focus of honoring God
in everything that I do andgiving everything else over to
(26:48):
him, that's where the work-lifebalance and the stress is.
That's where the release is.
There are certain things that Ican practice.
I can go for a walk, I can dosome exercise, but the major
thing is to spend time on yourknees in prayer, focusing on
your relationship with him andhim alone.
(27:09):
That's where your primary focusof one life and stress comes to
a head giving that over to him.
So that's the major thing thatI would focus on from a
work-life balance and a stressnote it's just your one-on-one
relationship with Christ andyour creator and spend more time
(27:30):
on your knees in prayer.
Spend more time in the WordJust focusing on that
relationship.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Is there a chapter or two that almost were in the
book, or something that you andyou mentioned, obviously from
Todd's question about part twois more in the faith community,
but is there a chapter orsomething that you've learned
that you're like I could haveput this one and this is the
secret chapter.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
There were some chapters that I had said, no, I
need to incorporate that intothis one.
It kind of dovetails into thisone.
I tried to narrow it down topretty buckets of situations
that people would have to dealwith.
I will tell you that the mostdifficult chapter I think that I
had to write was the one ondiversity, and that was written
(28:15):
five or six years ago anddiversity was a very hot topic.
So trying to address that froma biblical perspective without I
don't want to say offendingpeople but I'm not sure it did
in some respects but some of thecultural kind of political
correctness that was going on atthe time, I wanted to make sure
(28:41):
that it resonated with peopleand didn't turn them off.
And one of the stories that Iactually shared in the book was
that when I was with one of thepublic companies, they had
diversity metrics and publiccompanies had that at one time.
So we would measure diversitycandidates on how many got
(29:05):
promoted, how many were hired,how many were people of color,
how many were women, and sothere was one time I was
presenting those metrics at aregion level because that's what
we were kind of heldaccountable to A little while
later, a manager who was aperson of color got up and he
(29:27):
said I want to be measured by myperformance, not by my color,
not by my race, not by my gender.
And that struck me in that wewere doing a potential
disservice when we were onlylooking at race, gender and
(29:50):
ethnicity and we were measuringthat, and it's like it's an
insult to people who want to doa good job.
So that's what struck me.
That was the most difficultchapter, I would say, to write,
but it was the most rewarding.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Have you gotten feedback around that chapter?
No.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
A little bit.
Before I put it in the book, Isent it out to people I respect,
who are diverse, and said giveme your feedback on this, what
do I need to change?
And so I got that feedback andI was able to, from a biblical
perspective, line it up to whatresonated from a biblical
standpoint.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, I think you know, as believers, especially
over the last you mentioned acouple of years, diversity is a
huge, huge topic of conversationand there is, as I'm trying to
digest it, there is apossibility for how secular
culture defines diversity.
There is how the Bible definesdiversity.
(30:52):
That's correct, and some willoverlap and some won't.
And navigating through that,you know, through people who
believe many different thingsthat are in a business, you know
we're to celebrate people'sdiversity.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
We're all image bearers, correct, we're all
image bearers.
We're to celebrate that, butfrom a biblical perspective and
not a worldly perspective.
Celebrate that, but from abiblical perspective and not a
worldly perspective.
Brett, you've got a positionnow where you're leading
individuals who are inside ofmany, many companies and trying
(31:27):
to care for their people, soyou've got some perspective on
what's happening within thesecompanies, just at least from a
high level within theorganization.
Can you give us a couple ofthings that you feel like
businesses are doing well rightnow in this HR realm as it
relates to taking care of people, and a couple of things that
maybe they're getting a C or a Dgrade in how they haven't quite
mastered this and it's a biggerquestion, kind of an in
(31:49):
aggregate, but what do you seethe American business doing well
in the realm of HR of any sizeand what do you see the American
business doing well in therealm of HR of any size and what
do you see them stillstruggling with?
I think, from an HR standpoint,hr is in a difficult kind of
position within an organizationbecause you have to have a
relationship with the employeesbut also have to care for the
business needs of theorganization.
(32:09):
That's a difficult balance tomaintain.
That's a difficult balance tomaintain.
One of the things that we cando as an organization is that we
can come in and have aconfidential kind of resource
that people can speak with andexpress concern to without
having to worry that it'sgetting back to the organization
(32:31):
.
So if I'm struggling with myboss or a work-related situation
, I can express that to mychaplain without any kind of
fear of retaliation.
So HR people they don't havethat kind of flexibility to just
deal with individuals on apersonal care level.
(32:53):
It's not necessarily that theydon't want to, it's just by
design primarily.
And people want to care fortheir employees and that's why
they hire somebody like us tocome in.
And so from an HR standpoint,it helps with retention, it
(33:14):
helps with employee relations,it helps with communication and
just being another person therethat cares for the employees at
a deep personal level.
We prevented hundreds ofsuicides over the years and
that's a tremendous impact.
And we just passed this year.
(33:36):
Last year we had over 100,000gospel presentations.
So just bringing that being thehands and feet of Christ in the
workplace is a tremendousresource for the HR people that
they have difficulty steppinginto, either by design or time.
(33:56):
It's almost like the Americanunions missed a real big
opportunity here.
They've got the relationshipsin some situations with
employers and employees.
I know it's not part of theirDNA, but they could have layered
that chaplain service in yearsago and been providing that same
level of service thatorganizations like yours are
(34:17):
doing today in mass.
Yeah, I would agree.
You're right Missed opportunity.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Well, brett, I really appreciate you sharing your
story and bringing the book tolife for us today.
Again, I recommend to all ofour listeners to grab a copy of
Biblical HR, but before you go,we have two questions that we
ask of our guests, so I'll gointo that segment.
(34:45):
So first question is what is arisk that you have taken that's
changed your life?
Speaker 1 (34:51):
It was writing the book and putting it out there.
That changed a lot of things.
That alone helped me to alignmy faith with my work.
So, from a personal level, thatchanged my life Awesome.
Second last question what'sunfinished that you have the
(35:11):
resolve to complete?
Oh, I think I've got one or twoother books in me that I need
to kind of nail down, and so Ienjoy writing.
And one of the things that mywife has told me she would read
chapters of the book.
I would let her read them,obviously, and she would say oh,
there's Brett.
Say oh, there's Brett.
(35:33):
So I'm able to express myselfbetter writing than I can
verbally, so I need to utilizethat gift.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
So you found a passion in the process of book
writing.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Right, it's a passion .
We look forward to catching upand reading those next two or
three or 12 books that you won'thave left in you.
I appreciate that.
I'll hold you to that.
Appreciate it Nice meeting you.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Thanks for joining us today, Brett, and have a good
day everyone.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Thanks for tuning in to Risk and Resolve.
See you next time.
You're listening to Risk and Resolve, and now for
your hosts.
Ben Conner and.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Todd Hufford.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Risk and Resolve pod
with your co-hosts, Ben and Todd.
We have a special guest today,Brett Billups, who's the CHRO of
Marketplace Chaplains, as wellas CEO and author of Biblical HR
(00:27):
.
Brett, Thanks for being with ushere today.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Oh, thanks for having me.
It's a joy to be here, thankyou.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Awesome let's just start out If you could tell the
audience just a little bit aboutyourself and your background.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Professionally, I've been in human resources for
about 30 years in both privateand public companies in a
variety of different roles, bothas a support mid-level manager
but also leading the HR functionfor the last two companies that
I've been.
One was a large constructioncompany of about 6,000 employees
and now I'm a CHRO forMarketplace Chaplains.
(01:02):
I have experience in publiccompanies craft foods for about
13 years, mondelez Internationaland Iron Mountain.
That was a wonderful learningexperience from a public company
standpoint.
Got exposed to a lot ofdifferent things.
Personally, I've been marriedfor 36 years and a couple of
(01:23):
weeks to a Green Bay, wisconsin,girl, and actually we lived up
there for about 15 years andthree of our four kids were born
there.
We moved to Dallas in 2006 withKraft Foods and we have four
children.
The two middle ones are marriedand I have four grandkids.
(01:46):
So my daughter and they're withone daughter, so she has four
boys, eight and under.
Wow, we've kept them overnighta couple of times.
But yeah, it takes a lot out ofus, of us old people.
From a spiritual standpoint, Igrew up on a farm and ranch in
the middle of Texas.
We went to church every Sunday,but that was just what you were
(02:10):
supposed to do in the middle ofTexas and I wasn't a believer.
I didn't realize what thatlooked like.
I just felt like if I justfollowed all the rules, then I
was doing what I was supposed todo as a Christian.
It wasn't until I got reallysick about 20 years ago that I
(02:30):
started getting more seriousabout my faith and when I did
that we started homeschoolingour kids and growing in Chrissy
and I started growing in ourrelationship and then really
understanding what it looks liketo be a godly husband and
father, and we have been growingever since.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Wow, thanks for sharing that.
So you had a face-to-face withyour creator moment being sick.
That really changed your faith.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I did Very much so.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, so what led you into the HR field?
I'm guessing that you didn'twake up or, you know, maybe you
weren't taught at a young ageabout HR and that was
potentially your dream from theget go.
So how did?
How did you get involved in thefield of HR?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
That's a great question.
I kind of stumbled into it.
Stumbled into it.
I graduated from Texas TechUniversity with a degree in
advertising and minored inmarketing, after growing up on a
farm and ranch, which was kindof unusual.
And then when I got married, mywife's father owned a company in
Wisconsin and so I went to workin the operations part of that
(03:41):
company.
It was a small polyethylene bagmanufacturing company and when
he sold the company the newowners asked me if I wanted to
stay in operations or move intohuman resources.
And I saw a need in humanresources.
There were only about 80 people.
But I said, oh, I would like tohelp the people from a human
(04:01):
race standpoint.
I had no clue what I wasgetting myself into.
So the new owner brought one ofhis former HR people in to help
me build the HR function,establish an HR department, and
that's how I really got my start.
And from there I was with themfor about three or four years,
(04:29):
transferred to another smallprivate company, and then I was
there for about two years andthat's when I got on with Kraft
Foods from an HR standpoint attheir largest pizza
manufacturing plant in Wisconsin, and then that's where I cut my
chops from an HR standpoint.
I was with Kraft for about 14years.
I transferred to KraftCorporate in 2004, worked at
(04:49):
Kraft Corporate for about twoyears and then transferred in
the sales function to Texas inabout 2006.
And then, at 2013, transferredto Iron Mountain, which is
another public company, and thenI got asked to if I wanted to
leave the HR function for alarge employee-owned
(05:13):
construction company here inDallas, and I did that for about
five years before coming hereas the CHRO.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, you said you saw a need in HR or with the
people element at that firstrole.
What did that look like at thatpoint in time?
What need did you see thatyou're like?
I want to go to that.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, the need I saw was that I think there was a
disconnect between the ownersand the floor people and I
wanted to try and bridge thatgap as best that I could,
because I saw a lot of animositybetween the two and I wanted to
try and repair some of thatcommunication.
It wasn't tremendously bad, butI just saw that there was a gap
(05:54):
there that I wanted to try andfill.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
So you obviously you recently wrote your book
Biblical HR, where it really islike a how-to guide.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour reason, or like what was
stirring in you to kind of startdoing that.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
What happened is I really kind of started writing
for myself, because about 10 or12 years ago, I really started
struggling with how to apply myfaith to my work.
And what does that look like?
Because I would go to church onSunday, listen to a wonderful
sermon, wonderful worship, andthen spend the rest of the day
(06:34):
dreading going back into theworkplace the next morning
because I knew what I had todeal with.
I knew there was a lot ofthings on my plate that I needed
to deal with and I would dreadit, and so I realized I needed
to take I bridged the gapbetween Sunday and Monday
morning.
And how do I do that?
And so I started looking at thespecific situations that I was
(06:55):
having to deal with from an HRstandpoint and then started
writing.
Okay, how do I deal with thesefrom a biblical standpoint?
Like dealing with a difficultboss, a difficult employee, a
difficult coworker, how to do aperformance review, how to
conduct an interview, all ofthese things from a biblical
perspective.
And so I just started writingfor my own benefit.
(07:18):
Okay, how do I deal with thisissue from a biblical
perspective?
And I would look at a passageof scripture, pull out the
biblical principles, and then Istarted writing what can I do
before, during and after thisparticular situation to bring
biblical principles to bear inspecific situations in the
(07:40):
workplace?
So I started writing it for myown benefit, so I could deal
with them.
And then a friend of mineencouraged me Brett, you need to
get this out and help peoplewith that.
And I said, ah, maybe when Iretire I'll put this in a book
form and do that.
He said, no, you probably needto do that now.
So I did.
I finished, I presented it to ahybrid kind of publishing
(08:05):
company, morgan James, and theyaccepted it right away and I
finished it and it was published.
It was something that was.
That was the risk for me was arisk of, okay, putting that out
there.
Okay, so is this really goingto benefit people or not?
(08:26):
Is it just the ramblings of acrazy HR guy that has been in
the business for far too long?
But it seems to resonate tocertain people.
That's all I wanted to do.
Okay, it helped me, but how canit help other managers or
believers in the workplace todeal with these specific issues?
Because one of the things thatI would deal with from an HR
(08:48):
standpoint, even from mid-levelmanagers how do I deal with this
specific situation?
And I would walk them throughhow to deal with them.
But they have scripture thatthey can also utilize to bridge
that gap.
And that's what I wanted to do.
I wanted to take people toscripture, take people to those
(09:09):
biblical principles to deal withthings that they may not have
an in-house counsel to deal with.
Brett, you mentioned it was arisk to put that book out there.
Can you identify what risks youfelt at that time?
What truly was at risk bypublishing that book out there?
Can you identify what risks youfelt at that time?
What truly was at risk bypublishing that story, those
ideas?
Well, because I've neverwritten a book before, so it was
(09:32):
one of those that, okay, I haveno clue what I'm doing, so I'm
just going to take a step infaith and just take one step at
a time and see what happens.
It's not one of those thingsthat, okay, I'm going to write a
book to get rich.
I mean that's yeah.
So it's one of those thingsthat I felt called to do and
(09:54):
called to help, and so is itgoing to help people or not?
The risk was saying somethinginaccurate, saying something
that was unbiblical, sayingsomething that would take people
off of the right course, and soI was very purposeful in being
(10:16):
as biblical, ideologically soundas possible.
I had a friend of mine who wasa pastor, went to seminary he
was one of the editors of thisas well and made sure that I was
theologically sound andbiblically sound as I started
presenting these things youmentioned I think I've got the
timeline right that it seemedlike halfway through your career
(10:38):
, or career thus far, your faithbegan deepening.
It seems like you had a seasonwith public companies of kind of
a stale faith, but it alsoseems like you had time at
public companies with a strongerfaith.
Do I have that timeline right?
Yeah, I think so, because whenI started writing the book,
(10:59):
that's when I was with one ofthe public companies and I
realized that you know thepublic company.
They have a tremendous amountof resources, sure, okay, so I
just relied on them so I coulddo that.
But then I started to see alittle bit of disconnect between
my faith and my work, andthat's when I just started.
You know there's got to be moreto it than just, and that's
(11:29):
when I just started.
You know there's got to be moreto it than just following
public company policy and lawsand regs and more than that.
And then, as I started gettinginto it, todd, I realized that
you know, I don't know,especially from a human
resources standpoint, how dopeople do it without the
discernment of the Holy Spirit?
People do it without thediscernment of the Holy Spirit.
I mean, it's like if you don'thave that, then all you have is
(11:50):
company policy and laws andcompliance and regulations and
all of that stuff.
But there's more to it thanthat.
There's a spiritual componentto everything that we do.
Were you working at one ofthose public companies when the
book was released?
Public companies when the bookwas released?
No, it was not released until Iwas leading the construction
company organization.
And was the company a faithforward company, or was that a
(12:13):
risk too?
There has some faith componentsto it.
It's Texas, dallas based.
There's a lot of faith basedpeople that are within the
organization, but it was still aprofit-driven organization.
Let me put it that way Since itwas a book about your
professional knowledge, asopposed to some off-topic
discussion, did you feel theneed and did you kind of run it
(12:50):
past?
You know, whoever you reportedto to kind of A, let them know,
b sort of get their tacitapproval?
No, I didn't.
It was one of those that, yeah,you're right, you know, putting
something like that out thereand I was made aware of that by,
actually, one of the companypresidents.
He knew about it.
So he said you're puttingyourself out there.
That's when you draw that linein the sand or you put that
(13:11):
stake in the ground.
I mean that's something youcan't come back from, especially
in the environment of thepolitical environment.
That was five years ago.
So that was a risk.
And putting that faithcomponent out there from an HR
standpoint, yeah, that was arisk.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
You know, I think it's interesting too.
I mean, HR is the culturalchampion for any business, not
only internally but also of,like, what bleeds in from
culture in general.
You know, political orotherwise, or social, that comes
into the company, right, right.
(13:53):
So how did you navigate whenyou put yourself out there like
that and you probably did beforethe book?
You put yourself out there ingeneral as your faith being
really important to you, as youmentioned earlier the.
You know how do I makedecisions without the Holy
Spirit?
Did you ever find yourselfgetting challenged about?
Well, you know you can't bringreligion into the workplace, or
(14:14):
how did you handle that?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Well, you don't have to.
What I've learned is that wewere created and designed to
operate by biblical principles.
We just were, and they work inthe workplace.
Whether we call them biblicalprinciples or not, that's just
how we were designed.
So when you purposely act andrespond in a godly, biblical way
(14:41):
, you don't have to call them.
This is from the Bible.
I'm operating from a religiousperspective.
Now, if somebody asks me howare you grounded?
What does that look like?
I'm a Christian.
That's how that's grounded, butthat's especially in the
workplace.
The first thing to do isoperate and manage by godly,
(15:03):
biblical principles because,again, that's how we're designed
, that's how we work, that's howthings function.
So when you do that, it honorsGod and you acknowledge him in
the way that you do that.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, honors the Lord and honors his image bearers.
So you're right, that naturalconnection so in the book and
honors his image bearers.
So you're right, that naturalconnection, so in the book.
Literally it is a manual.
It goes through those topicsthat are can be really difficult
and, if you don't mind, I'dlike to obviously want to
encourage all of our listenersto go get a copy.
It's a fantastic read.
I got through it quickly andI'm a slow reader.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Well, it's not one of those that you have to read
cover to cover.
I mean, it's one of those thatyou have a situation.
You turn to chapter 12, youturn to chapter.
That's right, and it's not oneof those.
That is a you sit down and readit all in its entirety.
It's just as you need it.
It's a reference.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Well, I think it's kind of interesting.
I think from an encouragingstandpoint.
It may be easy to live out yourbeliefs because everything is
great.
But I think what's interestingin this book?
It talks a lot about conflict.
Resolution is one of thechapters.
Managing poor performance isone of the chapters.
(16:20):
So we're talking about thingswhere there is like human
conflict, and how does the Biblereference behavior in those
areas?
What is your mindset aroundpursuing people in conflict or
even when there's poorperformance?
Just give us a little highlightof the framing around that Sure
(16:42):
.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I think the conflict resolution chapter is one of my
favorites.
It's probably one of the lastones that I wrote before
launching the book and one thingthat we have to realize is that
resolving conflict is God's job.
That's not my job.
I mean, sometimes I have atendency to think, hey, I've
(17:05):
been in HR for 30 years, I cansit these people down and we can
come to a mediation andresolution, but maybe not so
coming to the realization that Imay have to live and deal with
unresolved conflict in adifferent way, because it may
not happen.
God has to prepare the heartsto resolve conflict.
(17:28):
If it doesn't happen, then youhave to deal with the situation
from a behavioral standpoint anda performance standpoint rather
than a conflict resolutionstandpoint.
So that's the major thing thatI learned.
I share a story in a book wherea mentor of mine used to be an
(17:49):
executive for GE GeneralElectric and he had a conflict
with one of his coworkersanother divisional president,
divisional president and so theregion executive scheduled a
meeting with these twoindividuals him and this other
(18:09):
person he was having a conflictwith on a Saturday morning.
So they came to his office at 8am and on his conference table
he had a coffee pot and he saidI want you guys to sit down and
resolve your conflict, or and ifyou can't, I will resolve it in
my way.
They looked at each other aftera few minutes and said okay, we
(18:38):
got the message.
So it's contingent on theindividuals in their heart to be
able to resolve the conflict.
And the leader knew that hewasn't going to change their
hearts toward each other.
They had to do, he was going todeal with it.
If they couldn't change theirhearts, he was going to have to
deal with it from a performancestandpoint or behavioral
(18:58):
standpoint.
So that's probably one of thekey learnings from a conflict
resolution.
One of the key learnings from aconflict resolution.
Now for performance management.
One of the things that I havelearned as a believer in HR is
that sometimes believersstruggle with wanting to hold
people accountable, so theydon't want to be seen as
(19:20):
impatient or not gracious, notmerciful toward the person or
not forgiving toward the person.
But holding people accountableto godly behavior and godly
principles is biblical and so.
(19:40):
But you have to do that in agodly way, and approaching
accountability in a loving wayis actually very biblical, and
the more that you ignore it,you're not doing them a service.
You're actually encouraging theungodly behavior.
Be courageous enough in ourfaith and in our ability to
(20:05):
confront and hold peopleaccountable, but do it in a
godly, biblical, patient way,and that's what I tried to do in
the performance managementchapter.
Brett, you got any thoughts onhow Christians got there to that
point where they view it asthey have a hard time holding
people accountable.
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
(20:25):
Yeah, I think what happens isthat there's so many unknowns
these days because people cansue you for anything.
They can sue you for adiscrimination, they can sue you
for unlawful termination, sothere's a fear there of making
the wrong move, taking the wrongstep.
But on the flip side of that Iknow also going to be seeing
(20:47):
there's a fear of confrontationbecause I just don't know how
the tools to do it.
So it's a double-edged sword.
But you made the observationthat you felt like Christians
have a harder time than thatthan maybe a non-believer would.
Any thoughts on why you thinkthat is that, than maybe a
non-believer would?
Any thoughts on why you thinkthat is?
Well, we want to be seen as, Ithink, a loving, patient, soft,
(21:14):
kind-hearted person, and holdingpeople accountable will make
people mad.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, Joyful heart doesn't seem like someone that's
in a holding line right a toughtime.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Personally, I can't do it.
But they're going through adivorce.
How can I hold them accountableto their job performance?
Well, there's other things thatyou can do to address that.
So the major thing that I seefrom a believer standpoint is
just not understanding numberone, that it's our biblical
responsibility to hold peopleaccountable to godly behavior.
(22:05):
But also, your being notaddressing it is actually being
unkind, unloving.
It's more self-focused andother-focused.
It's hard for you but it'sreally the best thing for them.
Correct, when you think aboutthe book and you put it out in
the world and, like you said, itwas a risk.
It probably went places younever imagined that could be.
(22:29):
From a geographic standpoint,it could be just to the highest
levels of some big company thatyou never thought it would go.
It's still in its flight pathof going out there in the world.
Maybe tell us a couple storiesof where it's gone that you
never would have thought itwould have gone.
Well, I will tell you that froma.
What God has taught me is thatthis is his book, not mine.
(22:51):
So after I left theconstruction company, I braced
down on my own.
I, after the book launched, Isaid, okay, I'm going to use
this as a launch for aconsulting company or something
along those lines, and it justnever took off because this is a
very niche kind of resource forpeople.
(23:14):
But as a result of my companyand the book, one of the
individuals from MarketplaceChaplain reached out to me, said
hey, we want to tap into yournetwork.
We're Marketplace Chaplains.
If you would recommend us toyour network, that would be
helpful.
And then I just asked and thenI learned that they were looking
for a CHRO.
Two weeks later I was workinghere.
(23:35):
Wow, and then what happened asa result of that is that the
field people at MarketplaceChaplains were giving this to
all the clients and in there theHR people they were supporting,
and it got out more than Icould have.
(23:56):
Yeah, you found yourdistribution partner, didn't you
?
Yeah, and it's like unknowingly, I mean.
So God said no, that's not theway I want to distribute it,
here's the way I want todistribute it.
So that's kind of amazing.
And how many calls for a sequelhave you had?
A couple.
The sequel would be this waswritten primarily to basic
(24:19):
businesses.
I think there's another a needfor biblical HR for churches,
ministries and nonprofits.
So, because that's a little bitdifferent animal.
So I have thought about OK, howdo I need to customize this to
appeal to that?
What about a book that appealsto the employee, to the team
member, to help them lead upfrom a biblical view to their HR
(24:44):
?
That may have some pieces ofthe puzzle, but maybe not all
the pieces of the puzzle.
And some of that is I try toappeal to Christians in the
workplace at whether you're anemployee or mid-level manager.
So some of the chapters kind ofappeal to employees that are
dealing with their boss oremployees that are dealing with
(25:06):
specific situations in theworkplace.
So I tried to deal with some ofthat.
So some of the audience kind ofcrosses over a little bit and
so, from an employee standpoint,I tried to speak to Christians
in the workplace, regardless ofwhat level that they were.
That's what I tried to do.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
A couple of chapters I wanted to kind of double click
into as well.
They kind of relate is talkabout like workplace stress and
work-life balance.
I was even just listening to apodcast even last night just
about how stressed just ourculture is and just how empty
people's tanks are as you lookat addressing kind of that
(25:49):
element more, even like themental health side of business
and how businesses can comealong their work force.
If you wouldn't mind just kindof double clicking into that
stress element as well as worklife balance.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
You know I'm going to combine those two and I'll tell
you why Is when I startedresearching work-life balance.
Work-life balance is a misnomer, it doesn't really exist,
because you know why we have onelife.
We don't have a life at work ora personal life.
We have one and that is am Ihonoring God and am I honoring
(26:26):
Him in everything that I do,personally and professionally?
So to try and separate thosetwo, that's what I was doing for
years.
I was trying to separate thosetwo, which caused a lot of
stress.
So if I just focus on asingular focus of honoring God
in everything that I do andgiving everything else over to
(26:48):
him, that's where the work-lifebalance and the stress is.
That's where the release is.
There are certain things that Ican practice.
I can go for a walk, I can dosome exercise, but the major
thing is to spend time on yourknees in prayer, focusing on
your relationship with him andhim alone.
(27:09):
That's where your primary focusof one life and stress comes to
a head giving that over to him.
So that's the major thing thatI would focus on from a
work-life balance and a stressnote it's just your one-on-one
relationship with Christ andyour creator and spend more time
(27:30):
on your knees in prayer.
Spend more time in the WordJust focusing on that
relationship.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Is there a chapter or two that almost were in the
book, or something that you andyou mentioned, obviously from
Todd's question about part twois more in the faith community,
but is there a chapter orsomething that you've learned
that you're like I could haveput this one and this is the
secret chapter.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
There were some chapters that I had said, no, I
need to incorporate that intothis one.
It kind of dovetails into thisone.
I tried to narrow it down topretty buckets of situations
that people would have to dealwith.
I will tell you that the mostdifficult chapter I think that I
had to write was the one ondiversity, and that was written
(28:15):
five or six years ago anddiversity was a very hot topic.
So trying to address that froma biblical perspective without I
don't want to say offendingpeople but I'm not sure it did
in some respects but some of thecultural kind of political
correctness that was going on atthe time, I wanted to make sure
(28:41):
that it resonated with peopleand didn't turn them off.
And one of the stories that Iactually shared in the book was
that when I was with one of thepublic companies, they had
diversity metrics and publiccompanies had that at one time.
So we would measure diversitycandidates on how many got
(29:05):
promoted, how many were hired,how many were people of color,
how many were women, and sothere was one time I was
presenting those metrics at aregion level because that's what
we were kind of heldaccountable to A little while
later, a manager who was aperson of color got up and he
(29:27):
said I want to be measured by myperformance, not by my color,
not by my race, not by my gender.
And that struck me in that wewere doing a potential
disservice when we were onlylooking at race, gender and
(29:50):
ethnicity and we were measuringthat, and it's like it's an
insult to people who want to doa good job.
So that's what struck me.
That was the most difficultchapter, I would say, to write,
but it was the most rewarding.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Have you gotten feedback around that chapter?
No.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
A little bit.
Before I put it in the book, Isent it out to people I respect,
who are diverse, and said giveme your feedback on this, what
do I need to change?
And so I got that feedback andI was able to, from a biblical
perspective, line it up to whatresonated from a biblical
standpoint.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, I think you know, as believers, especially
over the last you mentioned acouple of years, diversity is a
huge, huge topic of conversationand there is, as I'm trying to
digest it, there is apossibility for how secular
culture defines diversity.
There is how the Bible definesdiversity.
(30:52):
That's correct, and some willoverlap and some won't.
And navigating through that,you know, through people who
believe many different thingsthat are in a business, you know
we're to celebrate people'sdiversity.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
We're all image bearers, correct, we're all
image bearers.
We're to celebrate that, butfrom a biblical perspective and
not a worldly perspective.
Celebrate that, but from abiblical perspective and not a
worldly perspective.
Brett, you've got a positionnow where you're leading
individuals who are inside ofmany, many companies and trying
(31:27):
to care for their people, soyou've got some perspective on
what's happening within thesecompanies, just at least from a
high level within theorganization.
Can you give us a couple ofthings that you feel like
businesses are doing well rightnow in this HR realm as it
relates to taking care of people, and a couple of things that
maybe they're getting a C or a Dgrade in how they haven't quite
mastered this and it's a biggerquestion, kind of an in
(31:49):
aggregate, but what do you seethe American business doing well
in the realm of HR of any sizeand what do you see the American
business doing well in therealm of HR of any size and what
do you see them stillstruggling with?
I think, from an HR standpoint,hr is in a difficult kind of
position within an organizationbecause you have to have a
relationship with the employeesbut also have to care for the
business needs of theorganization.
(32:09):
That's a difficult balance tomaintain.
That's a difficult balance tomaintain.
One of the things that we cando as an organization is that we
can come in and have aconfidential kind of resource
that people can speak with andexpress concern to without
having to worry that it'sgetting back to the organization
(32:31):
.
So if I'm struggling with myboss or a work-related situation
, I can express that to mychaplain without any kind of
fear of retaliation.
So HR people they don't havethat kind of flexibility to just
deal with individuals on apersonal care level.
(32:53):
It's not necessarily that theydon't want to, it's just by
design primarily.
And people want to care fortheir employees and that's why
they hire somebody like us tocome in.
And so from an HR standpoint,it helps with retention, it
(33:14):
helps with employee relations,it helps with communication and
just being another person therethat cares for the employees at
a deep personal level.
We prevented hundreds ofsuicides over the years and
that's a tremendous impact.
And we just passed this year.
(33:36):
Last year we had over 100,000gospel presentations.
So just bringing that being thehands and feet of Christ in the
workplace is a tremendousresource for the HR people that
they have difficulty steppinginto, either by design or time.
(33:56):
It's almost like the Americanunions missed a real big
opportunity here.
They've got the relationshipsin some situations with
employers and employees.
I know it's not part of theirDNA, but they could have layered
that chaplain service in yearsago and been providing that same
level of service thatorganizations like yours are
(34:17):
doing today in mass.
Yeah, I would agree.
You're right Missed opportunity.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Well, brett, I really appreciate you sharing your
story and bringing the book tolife for us today.
Again, I recommend to all ofour listeners to grab a copy of
Biblical HR, but before you go,we have two questions that we
ask of our guests, so I'll gointo that segment.
(34:45):
So first question is what is arisk that you have taken that's
changed your life?
Speaker 1 (34:51):
It was writing the book and putting it out there.
That changed a lot of things.
That alone helped me to alignmy faith with my work.
So, from a personal level, thatchanged my life Awesome.
Second last question what'sunfinished that you have the
(35:11):
resolve to complete?
Oh, I think I've got one or twoother books in me that I need
to kind of nail down, and so Ienjoy writing.
And one of the things that mywife has told me she would read
chapters of the book.
I would let her read them,obviously, and she would say oh,
there's Brett.
Say oh, there's Brett.
(35:33):
So I'm able to express myselfbetter writing than I can
verbally, so I need to utilizethat gift.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
So you found a passion in the process of book
writing.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Right, it's a passion .
We look forward to catching upand reading those next two or
three or 12 books that you won'thave left in you.
I appreciate that.
I'll hold you to that.
Appreciate it Nice meeting you.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Thanks for joining us today, Brett, and have a good
day everyone.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Thanks for tuning in to Risk and Resolve.
See you next time.
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