Why Your Doctor Shouldn't Be a Bureaucrat

Nelson Griswold, founder and chairman of the NextGen Benefits Network, joins us to discuss his mission to revolutionize employer-sponsored benefits and protect America's private healthcare system through innovative supply chain management strategies.

• Passionate about preserving private healthcare to maintain innovation and avoid government-run systems like those struggling in the UK and Canada
• Helping employers manage their healthcare supply chain by steering employees to highest quality providers
• Counterintuitively, highest quality care often costs less because good surgeons don't make mistakes requiring additional procedures
• Many NextGen plans eliminate out-of-pocket costs for employees who use recommended high-quality providers
• Transitioning from selling insurance to managing healthcare risks, just like employers manage other business expenses
• Creating an "open source" collaborative environment where advisors share strategies and innovations
• Emphasizing the importance of population health management to address health risks before they become serious conditions
• Challenging the traditional broker model that's incentivized to place business with insurance companies rather than lower costs
• Combining the triple approach of skill set, tool set, and mindset to create meaningful healthcare change

Visit NextGenBenefits.com to learn more about our mission to make the highest quality healthcare accessible and affordable for all Americans, starting with the employees of our clients.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to Risk and Resolve, and now for
your hosts, ben Conner and ToddHufford, welcome back to another
episode of Risk and Resolvepodcast with your co-hosts, ben
and Todd.
Today we have the one, the only, nelson Griswold founder,

(00:23):
chairman and chief evangelistreally the NextGen Benefits
Network.
Nelson, thanks for joining ustoday.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Guys, it is a pleasure to be here.
I wish I was with you in Indy,but we'll have to make this do
virtual.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Absolutely, nelson.
Just for our listeners, viewers, however they're consuming this
.
Give a little bit of abackground to the NextGen
Benefits Network and how it cameto be and the mission that
you're on this is actually amission.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
It's a crusade, it's a revolution that we're leading
in healthcare andemployer-sponsored health plans,
employer-sponsored benefits.
Our vision statement at NextGenBenefits is the highest quality
healthcare, accessible andaffordable for all Americans,

(01:19):
starting with the employees ofour clients.
And let me emphasize thehighest quality.
Understanding healthcare somehealthcare can kill you and
accessible as well as affordable.
So it's affordable, but I don'thave any doctors in my area.
I mean, we've got to make surethat the care is available as
well as affordable.

(01:40):
The purpose what gets me upevery day?
We can talk about this latermaybe, but my background is
public policy.
I ran think tanks at the statelevel here in Tennessee, lobbied
the legislature, worked withbig think tanks in Washington
Heritage Foundation, catoInstitute, partnered with them
while running my think tanks inTennessee.

(02:01):
But our goal was free marketsmy think tanks in Tennessee, but
our goal was free markets,limited government, individual
responsibility when it comes tohealth care.
Our goal and my why is toprotect and improve the private
health care system in the UnitedStates.
If we lose that and we go togovernment run health care, we

(02:23):
will never get a private healthcare system back.
And if you look at countrieslike Great Britain, canada,
where they have a single-payer,government-run health system.
It is nothing we want.
There's no innovation there.
The National Health Service inthe United Kingdom is imploding.
It's absolutely falling apart.

(02:44):
It's just not sustainable.
Do you want your doctor to be abureaucrat?
I don't think so.
And without a profit motivethere's no incentive for
innovation, there's no incentiveto find new cures, to find new
treatments.
So, protecting and improvingthe healthcare system in the
United States it's largelygovernment run now, government

(03:06):
funded now Medicare and Medicaid.
But, as you guys know, half ofAmericans get their healthcare
through their employer, throughtheir private sector employer.
And that's our arena and that'swhere we're working to affect
what I'm calling private sectorhealthcare reform.
The government can't fixhealthcare but, as you two know,

(03:29):
employers, ceos and CFOs aredoing it every day, company by
company.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
So how long have you been running the NextGen
Benefits Network and along thatmission?
What's the prognosis network?
And along that mission, like,what's the prognosis?
Like, are things improving oris it more dire?
Or what's the circumstancesthat you're seeing today?

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, we have a four-year reprieve.
There's no national healthcareon the horizon.
With the current administration, it would be vetoed and it
wouldn't be overridden, and nota vote to override it if it were
to pass, which it's not likelyto anytime in the near, near,
near future.
But so we've got a four yearrespite that, they are investing

(04:25):
in their employees' healthcareand managing the supply chain of
that healthcare.
As an employee needs a doctor'sappointment or a surgery or a
drug cancer treatment, we makesure that it's the highest
quality provider available inthat market and we make sure
that that price is reasonable.
Now, sometimes you pay thehighest price because that's

(04:45):
what the best doctor is charging, but usually it's
counterintuitive.
The highest quality careusually costs the less, the
least amount, and so if you goto the high quality providers,
cost automatically comes downFor one reason good surgeons
don't make mistakes, requiring asecond surgery to fix the first

(05:07):
surgery and a readmission tothe hospital, all of which the
health plan pays for, eventhough the doctor made a mistake
.
He gets paid twice once to makethe mistake, second to fix the
mistake.
The best surgeons don't makethose mistakes, so they don't
require those additional costswe've been doing this about.
Let's see, nextgen was developedI mean, I gave it the name, but

(05:29):
I became aware of it in 2016and it's evolved and grown and
continues to evolve.
I like to say that thishealthcare revolution, or
benefits revolution that we area part of and helping lead, is
the most evolutionary revolutionin the history of revolutions,
because we just keep learningand we keep finding better

(05:50):
approaches and new ways toexplain it, new strategies,
better strategies to helpemployers take control of their
care and provide their employeesbetter healthcare.
Better outcomes because ofbetter healthcare at less
dollars, not just for theemployer but for the employee.
And in fact, as ConnorInsurance knows, a lot of

(06:12):
next-gen plans actuallyeliminate the out-of-pocket for
the employee.
Their healthcare is free.
Follow the guidance of themedical team, go to the highest
quality providers and theemployer just says yeah, we'll
waive your out-of-p pocketbecause you're doing the right
thing.
You're going to the bestprovider, the best doctor, the
best hospital and thereforewe're going to be saving money.
You're getting better care, sosure we'll waive you out of

(06:34):
pocket Free healthcare.
When was the last time youheard that?
That's actually the?

Speaker 1 (06:40):
total opposite of anything that you'll ever hear
in any news publication orotherwise, absolutely true.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
Well, the problem with healthcare is it's too
expensive and the quality is notconsistent.
We have great healthcare inthis country, but it's not
consistently great.
So you need help to identifywhich is the good doctor and
which is the bad doctor so youcan avoid the bad and go to the
good.
And that information is notreadily available.
It's expensive and it's hard tofind.

(07:07):
Our plans, nextgen plans, makethat available to employees so
they can make a choice Do I wantto go to the best doctor and
pay nothing out of pocket, or doI want to go to a bad doctor
and pay $6,000 to $9,000 out ofpocket?
Up to you.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
How did you find yourself into the employee
benefits and healthcare space?
I mean, you talked about publicpolicy and then you talked
about this mission that we're onsince I'm a member of the
network this mission that we'reon to revolutionize healthcare
in the absolutely most positiveway possible.
How did you find yourself intothis space and when did you like

(07:45):
it's a two-part question, Isuppose like, did it really
occur to you that, oh my gosh,we are onto something?

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Well, first question how did I get here?
Which is a great question.
I never would have guessed thatI would be in the employee
benefits space, and so I waswith my second think tank and I
had been running it as theacting president because our
president had passed of cancer.
I was the acting president andthe board brought in a new

(08:14):
president, so I'm working withhim and I'm head of policy, vp
of policy.
So we're doing our thing andwe're well.
Pardon the expression.
I pissed our governor off onetime too many, and people who
are on boards of public policyorganizations tend to be fairly
influential people and oftenhave an interest in public

(08:35):
policy.
So we had the owner, the CEO,chairman, ceo of a very large
nursing home chain.
He told me, nelson, I'm down atthe Capitol once a week, hat in
hand, asking for a favor, freeme from this regulation.
Give me some relief.
I don't need the governor madat me.
Another board member was asenior partner at a law firm

(08:57):
that lobbied the Tennesseelegislature and the governor's
office.
They were doing very, very wellbecause they had close ties to
this governor.
Sam the attorney told me,nelson, the governor's told me
if we don't get rid of you.
My lobbyists aren't welcome intheir office.
So, having annoyed the governorone time too many, I was gone.

(09:19):
They let me go.
So I'm casting about.
What am I going to do?
I'm a policy guy.
There's nothing else I can do.
And a former board member ofmine called me and said what are
you up to?
And I said you know what?
I'm looking for a job.
He said come talk to me.
And he was in employee benefits.
On the voluntary benefit sideran a benefit communication and
enrollment firm said hey, whydon't you come and be VP of

(09:41):
communications for me?
I said I can do that.
So that's how I got intobenefits and after several years
I was top producer.
I was out running everybody onthe sales side, but I was
getting a little bored anddecided to become a consultant
and help brokers and advisors dobetter.
Help their clients better, makemore money, have a better

(10:03):
business, better career.
Help their clients better makemore money, have a better
business, better career.
And that was when I startedworking directly with brokers.
In 2010, obamacare passed and Irealized this is huge for our
industry.
I mean, I actually read mostnot all, but most of the law.
The relevant parts relating tobrokers said this is like a
massive earthquake, epicenterWashington DC, and the tremors

(10:26):
from that earthquake are goingto collapse the ground under
employed benefit firms.
They're going to have toreinvent themselves.
So I wrote a book called Do orDie Reinventing your Benefits
Firm for Post-Reform Success andwe thought we would hand out a
few copies to prospectiveclients.

(10:46):
We sold over 5,000 copies ofthat.
The insurance companies werebuying them up by the case,
handing them out to otherbrokers, and so that really set
us up, and my partner at thetime and I built a mastermind
group, which you're a part of,which is top advisors.
Come together, collaborate,work together to find solutions

(11:10):
to improve what you do for yourclients.
And after three years of that Iran into a woman named Deb Ault
of Ault International MedicalManagement and I said to Deb
what do you do?
She said, oh, we help employeesfind the highest quality
medical care so that we can savetheir employers lots of money

(11:33):
on their healthcare.
And I looked at her and I'mthinking to myself wait, the
insurance companies tell us aclaim is a claim is a claim.
There's nothing you can doabout the cost of healthcare.
A claim is a claim.
There's nothing you can doabout the cost of healthcare.
It's an immutable fact.
A $100,000 hospital claim is$100,000.
Nothing we can do about it.
And I looked at her and I saidyou can't reduce the cost of

(11:54):
healthcare.
And Deb and you can see herdoing this stepped back, looked
at me and said I never got thatmemo.
Well, I started at first Ithought she was crazy, and then
we I started talking with hermore and exploring this and I
realized, wait, there are a lotof you can manage the cost of
healthcare.
And that's when the epiphanyhit.

(12:16):
It's like, oh my gosh, we'vebeen fiddling around while Rome
burns, selling insurance companyprograms that fully insured
plans that don't control thecost of healthcare.
When, for the right companies,not everybody's ready for a
self-funded plan, they aren'teligible.
But the ones who are cancontrol their healthcare costs.
Manage their healthcare costslike they manage every other

(12:38):
expenditure in their business.
Reduce the cost of care whileimproving the quality of the
care for their employees, theirbusiness.
Reduce the cost of care whileimproving the quality of the
care for their employees.
And I remember a mastermindsession we had.
It was in the fall of 2017.
And it was, and we were inDenver at the Brown Palace Hotel
.
I looked at the group and Isaid I've got a new job

(13:00):
description for you healthcaresupply chain manager.
A new job description for youhealthcare supply chain manager.
And that was the big shift.
That was when we really shiftedto focus on managing and
controlling healthcare costs.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
That was the match that lit the whole thing,
because you talk abouthealthcare across the country at
this point and it is a conceptof supply chain management and I
think that that's been broadlyadopted in talking point by most
consultants not necessarilypracticed by most consultants.

(13:38):
So just an incredible shift inthe entire industry that was
launched.
Shift in the entire industrythat was launched like epicenter
denver, next gen benefitsnetwork.
You know it wasn't even calledthat at the time, I don't even
think.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
But no, no, we had.
I was adopting in 2017 the nextgen label.
The next gen benefits label,next generation benefits, was
the first iteration, actually.
Well, I will tell you, it'sgratifying.
I was the first person to talkin the industry, to talk about
health care supply chainmanagement, and now we're seeing
it used.
The problem is the language hasbeen appropriated by a lot to

(14:15):
your point, by a lot of brokersand advisors who they're
implementing it by brochure.
Yeah, we do supply chainmanagement of health care.
Read about it in our brochure.
So it's gratifying that thelanguage is spread, but
frustrating that it hasn't beenmore widely adopted as a

(14:37):
strategy instead of just atalking point.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
Nelson, I see a real close connection between the
work of a think tank and thework you're doing today.
It's policy driven.
You have, if you will,constituents.
Your constituents that you'retrying to sway in a think tank
are policymakers, legislatorsand, within the next gen
benefits.

(15:01):
The policy is the supply chainmanagement and the people you're
ultimately trying to sway areplan managers, employers,
through the help of the advisors.
So a couple of things come tomind In a think tank.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
help me understand where's the funding come from?
How are think tanks funded?

Speaker 3 (15:22):
It's a darn good question.
I really don't.
I just assume donations of somesort.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
Well it is.
It's donations, individualdonors.
There are some foundations thatwill support think tanks if
they have proven themselvesworthy of the support we got.
We received some foundationsupport from several foundations
, smaller, more conservativeleaning foundations.
There is corporate moneyavailable at times but, as Ben
has heard me say, we work forwhoever signs our paycheck Right

(15:57):
and you take corporate moneyand you put yourself at risk
because corporations well,everybody wants something back
from their money.
They're putting it in for areason, but individuals who give
are usually ideologicallyaligned.
They just want you to go outand beat the drum for the issues
on which they agree with you.

(16:17):
The same with foundations theygive, usually based on
ideological basis.
Corporations rarely do.
These are the same corporationswho give money to both the
Republican and the Democratcandidate Because they want
access, they want results.
I don't know that I took anycorporate money.
I don't know that any corporatemoney was offered to me to be

(16:38):
fair, but I would have had ahard time taking it.
So something very interestingthough I learned from John von
Kannon, the longtime executiveVP at the Heritage Foundation
and head of development forHeritage and Heritage is
probably a half billion dollarorganization today in terms of

(16:58):
fundraising per year and Irented to John at an event in DC
and we were talking and I toldhim I was running a think tank
in Tennessee and I was askingabout fundraising.
You know a little bit about it.
He said what are you doingWednesday?
And I said I'm in town forThursday, so I'm here.
Can you come to my office at oneo'clock on Wednesday?
Oh yeah, absolutely.

(17:19):
He sat me down and gave me alesson in fundraising, but the
thing I remember most was if youwant someone's opinion, ask
them for money.
If you want money, ask them fortheir opinion.
And so whenever you all and Iknow you are philanthropically

(17:42):
oriented when you're asking formoney for an organization or
your church, instead of askingthem for money and telling them
what you're going to do with it,ask them what they think is
important and what needs to bedone, and they'll tell you.
And then you can say you know,we have a new initiative on that
very, which may have been bornthat moment that exact moment.

(18:09):
Let me go back and talk to theteam, but I think we have
something around that and thenyou come back and say what would
you think about the ToddHufford Center for XYZ?

Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Well, I know you're going to love the XYZ part
because you told me so, but it'snot cynical at all.
If it's not our agenda we'renot going to do it.
Find out what people want togive to and then give them an
opportunity.
You know, if they're notinterested in anything you're
doing, obviously they're not agood target, but you're probably
.
You probably know they've gotsome affinity for what you're

(18:43):
doing, right.
But anyway, that's howfundraising it's primarily
individuals, at least for smallthing times so then you pivot to
next gen.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
The revenue model on that is more supported by each
individual member right.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yes, and we run a mastermind group.
We've run that for the.
We are in our 13th year, wow Ofthe NextGen Benefits Mastermind
Partnership.
We are in the 10th year of ourAscend Conference, which has
been held every year until nowin January.
This year it's in July.
We had to move it because of arenovation project at the hotel

(19:18):
we were going to be at, and sowe put on a lot of events.
We're really an event companyin a lot of ways.
We've gotten pretty good atthat, and so I have vendor
solution partners that willsponsor these events, and that's
another part of our businessmodel.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
So when you think about 13 years of doing a
mastermind, how many total youknow Ben would equal one he's
participated in that mastermind.
How many Ben's have gonethrough or still part of or once
were part of the mastermind inthose 13 years roughly?

Speaker 2 (19:51):
I think we're around 75 to 80 people.
This is a very small, intimategroup.
I think the most we had at onepoint was 40 and that was a
surge.
We've been around 25 to 30 mostof the years and we had six
charter members.
Four of them are still in themastermind after 13 years, which

(20:16):
does my heart very good.
I value loyalty and I valuepartnerships and they have been
great partners and great membersand great friends over the
years.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
So let me pivot to you talking 70 total over 13
years.
I don't know how many benefitbrokers are out there total, but
that's got to be a very smallpercentage of the total
addressable market, if you will.
But yet the impact they've hadis pretty significant.
I mean, they're definitelypunching well above their weight
.
I guess, when you look at thebusiness going forward, do you

(20:51):
feel like those 70, those 80,those 100 can affect the real
change that you're hoping tomake through all these policy
and supply chain adjustments?

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Probably not, which is why we have growth, very
ambitious growth goals.
The group that Ben is a part ofand I don't mean the current
group, I mean the mastermind andthe next gen network of
advisors in the next gen, thenext gen network outside these
haven't necessarily been in themastermind but they've been
through our next gen benefitsboot camp training.

(21:24):
They are Ascend alumni.
They've been to our Ascendconference and they're doing
next gen strategies.
It's more like probably around200 or so, about two to 250, I
would guess.
But they are the point of thespear, the tip of the spear, the
phalanx, and it's going to takemore than that.
But there is a tipping point Idon't know where it is.

(21:47):
When I spent a week with RichardBranson on his island in the
British Virgin Islands and wewere talking about health, he
wanted to know about Americanhealthcare.
I was there representing thework I was doing, disrupting
healthcare.
This is a group of disruptiveentrepreneurs that Richard
hosted on his island, and so hewas asking about American
healthcare and I was explainingit's misaligned incentives.

(22:10):
And that's really the problemis, people are getting paid to
do the wrong thing.
So, instead of meeting theneeds of an employer and
lowering healthcare costs.
The incentives actually favorthe insurance company letting
healthcare costs go up becausethat causes premiums to go up.
Premium is the revenue ofinsurance companies and they

(22:34):
have a fixed profit marginbecause of a clause in the
Obamacare law the AffordableCare Act that caps their profit
margin.
So with a capped profit margin,they can't increase that.
The only way they can generatemore profit, more EBITDA for
their shareholders, whichincreases shareholder value,
which is a CEO's job is toincrease revenue, because four

(22:56):
and a half percent of a biggernumber is a bigger number.
I was explaining this toRichard Branson and he thought
for a minute after I finishedand said how are you going to
get them to change?
And I told him what we weredoing and he said okay, but you
know, organizations will notchange their behavior until

(23:16):
their incentives change.
So the challenge that we haveBen's a part of this is to
impact the incentives to make itless profitable to do business
the way they currently dobusiness.
So the CEO is forced to scratchhis head and said OK, we need
to pivot here.
These people are takingbusiness away from us.

(23:38):
Conor Insurance has takensubstantial companies, lots of
employees, away from biggernational agencies.
You all had no business doingthat.
There's probably some law ininsurance that says you're not
allowed to do that.
But you broke the law and youdid it.
The more that happens, it's notnecessarily the employers that

(24:03):
will change.
In fact, I had a recentconversation.
Which of the big houses, whichof the big box stores, as we
call them, the big brokerages,is the closest to maybe changing
their business model?
Because the first one that doesis a huge market advantage.
Huge, if Conor Insurance cantake a 500 life group from a top

(24:26):
five broker, what could a top10 broker take from other top 10
brokers if they were using yourstrategies, ben, they'd be
beyond dangerous because theyhave the brand equity and the
big thick binder of capabilitiesall of the A-team the ERISA,

(24:46):
attorney and actuary and medicaldirector that most of our firms
don't have individually.
They do through the network wedon't have individually.
That firm could change.
So I'm looking for where's thatfissure F-I-S-S-U-R, where's
that break in the wall thatmaybe we can put a crowbar in

(25:06):
and start to open it up andcreate a little more room for
change to get through?
And if we could get a largefirm like that to start doing
business differently.
It's the business model.
It's just a business model.
The insurance company'sbusiness model is let's put all
of the premium with the biginsurance company and fully

(25:26):
insured plans, because that paysus the most.
If I were running Aon Brown,brown, gallagher, willis Lockton
, I'd be doing the same thing.
I'd be fired.
If I didn running Aon Brown,brown, gallagher, willis Lockton
, I'd be doing the same thing.
I'd be fired if I didn't dothat.
But I'd be doing it becausethat's the model.
Somebody's going to say let'sbreak that model, let's do
another model, like Ben Conneris doing.

(25:47):
Let's model Conner Insurance'sapproach and we're a lot bigger
than Conner and any of the othergroups doing this.
We could really have an impact.
Have you seen the big guys doit?
Yet there is one agency and it'snot one of the bigger ones, but
it's big that is toying with it.

(26:07):
They have sort of a division.
It's out there doing a lot ofself-funding.
They're leading theself-funding which no broker
does.
That's not where they maketheir money.
Make their money fully insured,stick it with the insurance
company.
You get override bonuses, youget retention bonuses, you get
all sorts of additional dollars.
You get a multiple on thecommission.
So instead of 3%, you get 3%times 1.2 or whatever the

(26:30):
multiple is for volume.
This one agency is leading adivision, not the whole agency,
but they've got a division outthere playing with this, toying
with this, and that's actuallythe one I'm most hopeful and I
might even have a conversationwith at some point.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Because 7,500 agencies bought by private
equity in the last 10 years.
So you're talking 13 years of amastermind.
In about the same time, thecompetition that was out there
that might do these kinds ofthings is now under an umbrella
that's no longer incentivized todo it.
I mean we're incentivized to doit because, well, number one,

(27:08):
it's the right thing to do.
Number two, it's a great way toattract clients.
And number three, when you saveclients tons and tons of money,
it's not that hard to say hey,mr Employer, if I can get this
done, would you be willing topay me this fee and tell you
what?
Let's just take a one year at atime and then when you show
them the results, they're likeman, I'd be glad to pay you
double.
And we're like well, maybewe'll get there next year.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Well, you know there are advisors on the next gen
side that are taking yourpercentage of savings, which you
talk about aligning incentives,right.
I don't make a penny unless Igenerate the savings I've
promised you in the first place.
And every CEO, cfo.
They may not accept it they alldo not accept it, but some do
but you are totally aligned.
You've taken your chair fromone side of the table, set it

(27:58):
around the table next to the CEOor CFO and said we're on the
same side, absolutely the sameside, which, by the way, makes
it easier to get a yes toimplement a new strategy.
We'd like to bring in medicalutilization management.
What is that?
You tell him okay, sure, go,because he knows the only reason

(28:19):
you're bringing it in is tolower his spend so you can make
more money yourself.
Well, your incentives arealigned.
So that's.
You make a great point, though,todd, about the mergers and
acquisitions, the consolidationin in the industry.
There are a lot fewerindependent agencies out there,

(28:40):
but I will tell you this I wrotean article about this.
I used to write a monthly columnfor Employee Benefit Advisor
Magazine until they got foldedinto their sister publication
for HR, and I wrote a columnentitled, was it, I think?
The title?
Well, I don't remember thetitle, but it was.
It was about the decision thatagency owners were making to

(29:01):
sell, and for most of them itwas a tragic decision.
They were making it for onereason, and one reason only.
Now there were a few that madeit because it was a godfather
deal.
Couldn't refuse it, offering somuch money.
I was sitting across the tablein Wichita from an agency.
Well, wasn't an agency owner?

(29:22):
He had just sold to one of thebig houses and I said hey, you
might be asking how was thenegotiation?
I'm always curious, before yousold, how was the negotiation?
He said well, they sent theirpeople in.
We sat down at the conferencetable.
My partner and I were on oneside, they were opposite.
They slid a piece of paperacross the table.
We looked at it and said, okay,that was the negotiation.

(29:45):
So, godfather deal, exitstrategy.
You guys are now, you know it's40 years from now and you
decide you want to go off andhang with the great grandkids.
Exit strategy yes, I don't haveanybody.
There are no more people in theConnor clan to take over this
organization, so the grandkidsdon't want.

(30:05):
So we're going to sell.
Okay, exit strategy, godfatherdeal, exit strategy.
The third, and this is why mostagency owners sell, even today
they don't know what's next.
They know that what they'redoing is not winning them more
business.
They're seeing that they'reworth this much in the market

(30:25):
and they're seeing that value godown and they figure if I sit
around here for another 10 yearsit's going to be down here.
I better sell while it's uphere because I don't know what
to do next and I'll letGallagher, brown and Brown
figure it out.
And it's a shame, because thenwe'll tell you we know what's

(30:47):
next.
You guys are doing it.
It works and it wins business.
Not just good for the employers, it's good for the agency as
well.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
Something that Todd brought up about bandwidth that
I've been thinking about is andyou talk about this religiously
among anyone that intersectswith the network is it's three
equal parts of skill set, toolset and mindset.
Three equal parts of skill set,tool set and mindset, and it's.
You know, do you have the tools?

(31:16):
Do you understand how to usethem?
And then what is your mindset?
And I've found over the yearsand just kind of just reflecting
and watching, that mindset isactually one of the big limiters
to growth or change or whateverthe desired outcome is.
And even when I apply that tohealthcare in general, in the

(31:42):
deliverable of changing the game, mindset is the biggest limiter
.
And, todd, you brought up thepoint of like hey, can those 30
people or 70 people or even 200people, can they change the
system?
Can they be the revolution?
And it's right, the answer isno.

(32:02):
But I kind of come back to likeI've been studying, learning
about through various podcastsor otherwise, about AI, and it
comes back to a conversationabout closed source and open
source and they talk about forthe United States, for economic
excellence, to be a world power.

(32:23):
It's going to be around thisconcept of open sourcing AI in
going faster, stronger, betterthan the competition.
And open source is the idea ofshared model, and I've been
thinking about that withinhealthcare and even with the
mindset of a broker in general,and it's absolutely the opposite

(32:45):
of that.
Everything in healthcare isclosed source.
You can't know about thenetwork agreement, you can't
know about a direct contract.
You don't know what anotherbroker is doing.
This person gets this deal andthis other person gets another
deal.
Everything is hidden in theshadows and I've just more of a

(33:07):
comment than anything.
I've just found that to be justa fascinating look at two things
and how competition views it sodifferently.
Technology, people, it's let'sgo fast and open source and
those sorts of things.
And in healthcare it's likelet's keep everything to ourself
, let's not share, it's allabout profit margin.

(33:29):
And you know WIIFM what's in itfor me, everyone's favorite
radio station.
If we actually wanted to solvesomething, it would be totally
opposite of that.
It'd be open source.
We wouldn't be afraid of thecompetition having the same
access to the same thing,because you can innovate off of
that.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Ben.
What is the hallmark of themastermind?
Open source Collaboration?
Open your kimono and show yourwarts, your scars, your bruises
and then share what's working.
Quick story on that this isbecause this is really
inspirational.
I did a mastermind meeting in DCand invited an advisor who was

(34:13):
doing really really well and hetold me it was a mastermind
meeting.
We got started and I said allright, so who wants to share
what's working?
Share your fastball.
And Mick.
Mick says Nelson, I'm not sureI want to share my fastball and
I've worked really hard to buildthis.
I've had a lot of success and Idon't think I want to tell her

(34:36):
about what I'm doing.
I said well, mick, first of all, this is a mastermind meeting,
it's all about sharing.
I told you that and then, allof a sudden, one of our charter
members now retired, playinggolf in Scottsdale instead of
selling benefits and health carein Omaha in the winter stood up

(34:57):
and said Nelson, I've got this,he's standing right.
He was seated right across fromMick and this was Tim Olson,
olson Benefits.
Tim said Mick, I've been inthis group for several years now
.
It's about four years, three,four years.
He said I give everything away.
Everything I do, I give away.
I just invested $5,000 in amarketing program.

(35:18):
I gave it all to everymastermind partner.
Just here you go.
Here it is.
I spent the money but you getthe benefit of it and my
business has grown 27% in 18months.
We're having to move buildings.
We've outgrown our buildingSharing works and he sat down.
Mick goes okay, all right, fine.

(35:40):
So he ends up sharing what he'sdoing in detail.
He calls me two weeks later andsays Nelson, you're going to
believe this.
Ever since I was at yourmastermind meeting, I've had
more clarity around what it is Ido, how to make it better, the
areas where it's a little bitweak that I want to polish up,

(36:01):
areas that are really strongthat I want to boost.
I understand it and see it somuch better.
I said, mick, of course you do.
You've been keeping it in yourhead.
At the mastermind meeting youtook it out of your head, put it
on the table for everybody elseto look at, including you, and
now, like looking at a diamond,you get to turn it around and

(36:22):
see all the different facets andyou get to explore what makes
up that diamond and you see itclearly in a way you never would
see it if you had it stuck inyour head.
That's the open source part.
When you put it out there,you've got to look at it too.
You know?
Wait a second, I didn't realizeit did.
That's not right, we can fixthat, or that's great, but that

(36:46):
gives me an idea to do somethingelse Right.
And that's the mastermindprocess.
How many times have you been inthe room where somebody asks a
question first person, not agreat answer.
But the second person hearsthat and goes well, how about
this?
No, that's not it.
But the third person heard bothof the other two comes up with
an idea that he never would havethought of without the

(37:08):
prompting of the previous not sogreat ideas and provides the
answer, the solution.
But it wouldn't have happenedhad you locked him in a room for
a year and said solve thisproblem.
It's a collaborative,interactive and cooperative
process and that's why themastermind worked and that's why
open source works, is itinspires people.

(37:31):
It's like, oh, that's a greatidea, but it gives me an idea.
They aren't just copying it.
Sure, some are, but others aregoing I can improve this or I'm
going to do something completelydifferent.
That's much better than this.
I didn't realize that's whatthey were doing.
I thought they were doing this,I'm going to do this, and next
thing you got a secondgeneration that's far superior

(37:51):
to the first, and that's what wedo.
That's exactly what we do.
I've never thought of it asopen source before, and we had
this conversation the other dayabout AI and open source.
Closed source and healthcare isnotorious.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
You're right, yeah, everything's closed source, and
I think that's been probably oneof the most fascinating things
I've learned through themastermind process and even some
of my first meetings, whereMick was the guy standing there
saying like, hey, we're sharinghere, so it's funny that you
know Tim imparting on Mick, mickimparting on others, and so
continues.

(38:24):
But we have to do that so thatyou have dozens and hundreds of
consultants, leaders, that aretaking the understanding or are
learning about what it takes tobegin to solve the behemoth
that's healthcare and impart iton knowledge.
And then, from knowledge thattraveling a foot south so to

(38:49):
where it's actually a beliefsystem and a calling right of
this actually is incrediblyimportant to be solved, and this
mission needs me to be part ofit, which that's where you kind
of get into rare errors when iswho's actually getting to that
portion of calling, rather thanit's just about a paycheck or

(39:11):
landing a client or whatever itmay be?

Speaker 2 (39:14):
That's a big part and I probably don't emphasize it
enough.
This is a cause, this is amission.
I have been saying for a while,if it's not about the mission,
it's just about the money, andthat may be okay for some people
, but I think most people wouldrather have a purpose, a cause,

(39:34):
a calling, a mission to be apart of, to inform their actions
, to inspire their actions, tomotivate them, to energize them,
as opposed to just another day,another dollar.
Money is incredibly sterilevaluable got to have it, need it
, want lots of it but sterileand uninspiring.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
So one thing I wanted to ask you about, nelson, is
and there's some of the examplesbehind you but you've spent a
lot of your time, talent andtreasure investing in the story
and making sure that and we'llput links to the books that
you've authored as well as likea link to the documentary that

(40:20):
you were significantly part of.
It's not personal, it's justhealthcare.
Why have those communicationefforts been so important for
the movement and for theeducation for employers around
what's occurring in thishealthcare revolution?

Speaker 2 (40:40):
I'm in Nashville, as you know, and Nashville has been
called Tin Pan Alley.
It's been called thesongwriting capital.
More songs are probably writtenin Nashville than anywhere else
, and in the music industrythere's a saying it all begins
with a song.
In sales, in public policy, inpersuasion, in education, it all

(41:06):
begins with a story.
If you do it well, you canteach facts, but people don't
retain facts, they don't careabout facts.
There's no context for facts.
Stories provide context andmeaning and they're also
memorable.
I could give you three datesright now and you would forget
them.
But if I told them in a storyand I point out why they're so

(41:28):
significant, you would probablyremember those dates.
People respond to story andstory educates and teaches
without being pedagogical,without the lecture.
It's not me telling you, I'mtelling you a story, the story
is telling you, but I'm arm'slength, I'm not the story.

(41:51):
Now I might be in the story,which is the best way to tell
about something, about you.
Don't tell them that you didthat.
Did you notice?
I didn't tell you I spent aweek with Richard Branson on his
island.
So that was in the context of astory.
But now everyone knows who'slistening about this guy spent a
week with Richard Branson.
So it's a way to communicateyour truths and your message

(42:14):
without being preachy, oractually, people might not agree
, but they're not disagreeingwith you, they're disagreeing
with your story that you justhappen to tell.
So there's so much power.
I've got probably 10 books onthese shelves behind me about
storytelling using humor in yourstories.

(42:35):
I've got a couple of books onTED Talks how to tell that story
in 18 minutes, which is whatthey give you for a TED Talk,
which, by the way, that18-minute time frame is based on
how long human beings can payattention.
It's the maximum attention span18 minutes.
So when you're speaking and Idon't always do this 18 minutes

(42:59):
and some sort of disruption youask a question or you bring
somebody up and talk to them onstage, but don't keep talking
for more than 18 minutes.
I violate that all the time.
So the story is everything,what we are.
It's his story, history, hisstory and her story, but you get
the point.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
Nelson.
We talk about multiplication7,200 agents.
Ben and I have had a greatopportunity last year to be
asked by two differentuniversities to come speak.
They think we've gotten to somelevel and have something to say
.
So we come and speak and Ienjoy it thoroughly to talk to
college students.
High school students shareeverything we've learned.

(43:42):
Is there a medium, a story forwhich you guys at the Next Gen
Benefits organization couldcreate curriculum, slash
material and then throw down thegauntlet to the 70 or 100
mastermind members to say yourjob, since you're in every

(44:03):
corner of the country, is tofind a local college and go
present this, go, become invitedto present this to college
juniors and seniors.
Those might be future employeesat our benefit shops.
Those might be futurelegislators.
Those might be future employeesat carriers.
They're going to work somewhereand if they've got the

(44:24):
knowledge of how a benefit plancould and should work, wow, that
could be powerful.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
That's a great idea.
I certainly can.
We certainly can put together apresentation based around a
PowerPoint.
The beauty of PowerPoint formost speakers is, if you haven't
been doing this speech andrehearsed it and you know it by
heart, it's a prompter.
Oh, next slide.
Oh, I'm talking about this,right?
So it makes it easier forpeople who are not professional

(44:50):
speakers, like I am, to go outand give a presentation and not
be constantly looking down at apage of notes.
That's a great idea.
I love that idea, andleveraging the national presence
we have is a terrific, terrificstrategy.
We have them out there talkingto employers, but taking another

(45:11):
step and go to their old highschool.
You can usually get invitedback to your old high school,
especially if you don't have alittle money, or back to your
college.
Great idea, todd.
Thank you.
I will be implementing thatsomehow or other sooner than
later.

Speaker 3 (45:24):
We've just got so many people who trust the
quote-unquote good doctor, and Igrew up in a household where my
grandfather graduated as aphysician from IU Med School in
1926.
So he was a physician for 50years and you just trusted the
good doctor.
And the reality is we stillwant to trust the good doctor

(45:44):
but unfortunately their ownincentives are disaligned.
They're working for an employerwhose incentives are disaligned
.
And if we could create justanother 100 or 200 college
graduates who just ask questions?
Ask good questions, becausethat will lead you to
interesting answers.
Good questions, because thatwill lead you to interesting
answers.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
I love it Great, great great thought, great idea.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
One of the final questions I have, and then we'll
wrap up with the two questionswe ask everyone.
But in this healthcarerevolution, nelson, what does
the next phase look like in yourmind, or where is the puck
headed?
To An old Wayne Gretzky famoussaying where's the industry
headed?

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Well, if I have anything to do with it, it will
head in a direction of demandmanagement to complement the
supply chain management that wedo now.
And supply chain management isso much easier than demand
management because demandmanagement in healthcare means

(46:46):
employees in our world.
We deal with employees,employees changing behaviors.
I think we all know howdifficult that is and it's even
more difficult I don't know ifit's well.
It's probably more difficult toget other people to do it than
it is to do it ourselves, andit's near impossible to do it
ourselves.
I do not support New Year'sresolutions because they're just

(47:09):
New Year's broken promises andpeople don't stick with it.
And then you feel guilty aboutmaking it and not doing it.
Just don't do it.
Pick something and just say Ithink I'm going to go work out.
Don't say I'm going to work outevery week, twice a week.
Just go do it.
The problem is, as risk managerswhich is what you and everyone

(47:32):
in your firm, on both theproperty and casualty, as well
as the benefit side you're riskmanagers.
You're helping employers,business owners, manage risks.
On the benefit side, you'rehelping employers manage the
risk around the commitmentthey've made to pay for
healthcare for their employees.
Well, that's a huge potentialrisk and without some plan

(47:58):
design strategies that delimitthat risk, that mitigate and
control that risk, they couldbankrupt them.
I mean a million, $2 millionclaim for one patient would
bankrupt most companies.
A quarter million dollar claimwould bankrupt most companies.
So you put in means to controlthat upper risk threshold.

(48:20):
But then how do you manage therest of the risk, that 40,000
per employee?
Perhaps that the employer hasdecided that he would insure
himself or herself?
The problem is benefit advisors, brokers, who are attempting to
do that to manage the risk ofthe healthcare costs, are using

(48:42):
the rear view mirror and theside view mirrors.
They're looking backwards,they're looking at claims
experience, looking at claimsdata, and that's fine and good,
except you're looking at a claimfor someone who's already had
the heart attack.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
What about?

Speaker 2 (48:58):
his co-worker who hasn't had the heart attack yet,
but he's going to.
If something doesn't change,he's going to.
And if it doesn't change, atleast you know we better be
planning.
This guy's going to have aheart attack and we need to
financially.
Let's put aside some funds.
This guy's going to have aheart attack or this person is
predisposed to a very serioustype of cancer.

(49:21):
There's nothing we except wecan catch it early if we know it
.
But if we don't know it, it's ayear, two years down the road.
She's stage two, stage three,which you can hardly manage and
is very expensive to treat,nevermind cure.
Population health managementmanaging the health of the

(49:42):
employees of a company by doingbiometric tests, blood draw and
doing a panel of tests to findout where your health is today,
and then a health riskassessment, which is the
cheapest, most inexpensive andmost effective genetic test

(50:02):
available.
You don't need anybody's DNA,it's family history.
Wow, you have three generationsof women in your family with
breast cancer.
Let's do regular checks.
In fact, why don't we do agenetic test and see if you have
the marker?
If you do now, we know to dothose regular tests and we catch

(50:24):
it early.
Some women will even.
Angelina Jolie, for instance,had two radical mastectomies
because she had the marker.
She knew she was going to getbreast cancer.
She didn't want breast cancerso she had mastectomies, so she
didn't have to deal with that.
It's a radical decision, no punintended, but it is a legitimate
decision.
But you can't make it if youdon't have the evidence.

(50:45):
So, helping employersunderstand I'm not talking about
the CEO and CFO actuallyknowing this it's the medical
team, it's the advisor knowingwhich employees are at risk of
serious health conditions, whichemployees need intervention.
Today he's pre-diabetic, but wecan reverse that if we can get

(51:07):
to him and put him on a programif he's willing.
And you're going to see, Ithink, with this new
administration, a relaxation ofthe limits on the awards and the
incentives that employers canoffer employees to participate
in programs like diabetesmanagement and other population

(51:27):
health management.
So it's like, well, you don'thave to do this population
health management, but you can'tbe on the health plan, oh.
Or you can be on the healthplan but you're going to pay a
hundred dollars, a paycheck more, oh, maybe I'll do the blood
test, the blood draw, okay ornot, but you'll pay for it and
at least you're contributingmore into the plan to help

(51:48):
offset the eventual cost you maybe causing the plan Because,
don't forget, it's not theemployer's money, it's the
employee's money.
If the employer can spend lessand less and less on healthcare,
he can give more wage increases, he can provide other benefits
to the employees.
So population health managementthat empowers an employer to

(52:09):
manage the health of thoseemployees to help mitigate,
avoid and manage the risks thatthose employees pose, both in
terms of their own health butalso in terms of financial
obligation to the plan.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
Yeah, I think you're spot on.
I think we've learned to managethe supply chain.
So when we see large claimscome or the emergence of large
claims, we know how to mitigatethat.
But I think what is that a lotof people don't have answers to
is the chronic conditions thatare growing in cost by 15, 20,

(52:47):
25% across dozens of people andat that point it's over.
You're paying for it, right,and obviously we want to take
care of folks.
That's the primary motive.
So if the money is not theproblem, if you look at in
general, your population'sgetting sicker.
And if they're sick, are theyable to invest in their family

(53:10):
life?
Are they their most productiveworker?
Are we helping them live theirlife to the fullest?
And the answer is probably thatwe aren't helping them do that
the answer is definitely no.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
I don't think employers need to be
paternalistic, but when they areproviding a resource like
healthcare, it's a healthcareplan.
Today it's a sick care plan.
That's right.
You don't need it really.
It may be some preventativecheckup, but other than that

(53:42):
there's no wellness involved.
There's no well care.
You interact with the healthcare system when you are sick or
hurt, and hurt you can'tnecessarily avoid unless you
have a really good safetyprogram at work that you all
have implemented for youremployer client to mitigate
their work comp expenses.

(54:03):
You can't really controlinjuries, accidents outside the
workplace anyway, but you canaddress disease and other
medical conditions and thisisn't just good for the employer
, this is good for the employee.
And there are story after storyI mean I need to assemble these
stories of the employee who wentfor one of these checkups.

(54:26):
He didn't want to do it but theemployer had the doctors on
property because he was two daysaway from a widowmaker.
Another person came in, hadcancer, didn't know they had
cancer, no idea.
They would have gone months toyears without knowing it while
the cancer grew Internal, notmental.
People are on a razor's edgeand they don't know it and these

(54:50):
types of programs can identifythat.
But more than that, it's justtaking care of your people and
helping them take care ofthemselves.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Yeah Well, Nelson, appreciate the time today,
Appreciate the work that you areputting in at the NextGen
Benefits Network.
That really has had ripplesinto the entire industry.
It's funny that people will say, well, you'll say several
hundred people have participatedin Ascend and 70 or so brokers
that have been in the mastermind.
But the reality is the rippleeffect is much more expansive

(55:24):
than that.
So we end our sessions with twoquestions that we're going to
ask you.
First question what is a riskthat you have taken that has
changed your life?

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Well, there are a number, I would think.
The one that comes to mind,though, was leaving the employee
benefit enrollment firm I waswith and hanging out my shingle
as a consultant to brokers.
Nobody asked me to do that.
There was no clamor amongbrokers.
There was a need because I wasgoing to help them be better in

(55:57):
their job, make more money, helptheir clients better.
But that was a huge risk, andmy wife questioned it, because I
don't question things like that, I just do it, but it was a
huge risk.
I left a good, stable job andpaycheck every pay period to be
on my own.
It was rough at first.
It was very rough at first.
I just about starved.
My wife was not happy, buteventually things picked up and

(56:23):
a couple of good contracts camein and good opportunities.
And had I not done that madethat investment, something I
realized recently, by the way.
Change, changing, making change,doing change is an investment.
So when you ask your employerclients to change your health

(56:43):
plan, you're asking them to makean investment.
Time, energy aggravation,disruption all that's part of it
.
Any change has those factorsinvolved.
So when I made that change, itwas very disruptive and
difficult.
I mean it wasn't difficult tomake the decision, but it was
difficult to live with it for acouple of years.

(57:04):
But it's gotten me here and sothe payoff has been huge, not so
much financially as I like totell my wife our wealth is a
lagging indicator of my successbut in terms of the difference
that I've been able to make, theimpact I've been able to have.

(57:25):
And years ago my wife said Iwasn't running a not-for-profit
and I wasn't making a lot ofmoney.
And she said it was a thing tothe think tank, but it was a
not-for-profit organization.
She said can't you pay yourselfa little bit more?
I said, honey, I work fornot-for-profit.
I have a board.
I can't do that.
She said, well, you're notmaking a lot of money.
And I said well, I'm not reallyinterested in making a lot of

(57:47):
money, I'm interested in makinga difference.
And that's been my mantra, ormy operational idea is that I
just want to make a difference.
I figure I'll be rewarded fordoing good things and doing good
work eventually.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
Well, nelson, you speak about it like a true
pastor.
You've been caring for andtending to the fields which are
these 200 advisors and growingacross the country, helping them
to change their agencies, theirclientele, their corner of the
world, and I can tell just byour conversation that you're
nowhere, even close to done yet.

(58:25):
And so that brings me to oursecond question, which is what
is left yet unfinished that youhave the resolve to complete.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
I'm going to go off script here, but I know you're
both family men.
I have not been a model husband.
I'm married to my work, I'mpassionate about it.
I have given my work moreattention than I've given my
marriage over the years and it'ssuffered as a result.
If you think of life as a hockeygame, I'm entering the third

(58:57):
period, the final period, but,by the way, that's when the game
is won or lost usually, and myresolve and we're working on
this, my wife and I are activelyworking on this is to be a
better husband in this thirdperiod, to be more present for
her, to be a better dad for mykids.
I mean my kids suffered too.

(59:18):
I mean, ben, I truly admireyour dedication to your family
and to your girls.
It's annoying at times when itkeeps you from coming to one of
our meetings and I slightlyresent it for a brief second,
but I mean it's truly admirable.
And that wasn't me and Itraveled a ton One year.
I was out 210 days speaking.

(59:40):
It was a very, very heavy,great financial year but a very
heavy speaking schedule.
So I've resolved that we'regoing to have a much better
third period together as acouple than we had our first two
periods and I want to be thathusband that she deserves and
that I'm called to be.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
Thank you for that encouragement.
I know that, appreciate beingvulnerable and transparent, but
you know, like I do, that thatmessage, like your coaching
message of benefits, is going toresonate and people follow, and
so they're going to hear thatand they're going to rethink
what they're doing in theirfirst and second period so that
when they get to their thirdperiod they can maybe have a

(01:00:22):
different answer.
So I very much appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
Yeah, thank you.
Well, thanks to everybody forlistening and Nelson thanks for
joining us today and make sureto tune back in for the next
episode of the Risk and Resolvepodcast.

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Thanks for tuning in to Risk and Resolve.
See you next time.