You Are Acting Like Your Mother | RMTS 147 W/ DSO & Verlisify - RMTS Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello, everybody. How you doing? This is real? Men talk shit
and holy god, it feels likeit's been three four weeks since we recorded,
but it's only been two royalists.How you been, buddy? I
just woke up. I'm getting readyfor like all the Elden Ring, DLC
POW World gaming. I'm very tired. Have my g fuel ready. We
are waking up and we're gonna havea great podcast. And this is Ralph

(00:24):
from Dad's starting Over. So Ifound your channel like I found your channel
on Facebook probably like six seven monthsago, and I've been absolutely struggling with
a lot of this shit. Actuallysome of it I can't talk about obviously
because you know, court and allthat shit. But it was really really
interesting to find somebody else who wasso clear headed and actually direct with this

(00:46):
is how you have to deal withthese things. There is no other answer.
It's kind of very black and white, and if you are in a
gray area situation, things can beworked. One. It was weird because
so many other people, whether it'slawyers or not, are so hard stanced
with Oh, you just have todeal with everything the hardest level you possibly
can. So it was nice.It was nice seeing somebody else with such

(01:06):
a level head in this situation.Well good, I'm glad, thank you
for watching. Appreciate it. Yeah. Well, when I started YouTube,
I started out watching this guy namedWoody's gamer Tech. He's now my boss,
and he kind of like gave aguide on how to be like a
teenager turning into a man turning.And it was nice to kind of like
come into this myself and be like, Okay, well that's what I want
to do. I want to kindof help guys be the people that they

(01:30):
need to be and kind of havea way to sound off whenever they want
to. And then I saw yourchannel. I was like, oh,
look somebody who's doing the same thingin a very shitty situation and a very
similar situation to I'm in. Andnow all of a sudden, you're growing
and exploding too. So that wasreally really interesting to kind of just have
that connection there. Excellent, excellent. Yeah, well thank you for having
me on. Appreciate it. Appreciatedit a great deal. Absolutely. Man.

(01:53):
So I have a whole bunch oftopics here and a whole bunch of
things, but I do want totalk about this website that you're launching and
working on and stuff like that.I found it rather interesting because it's kind
of the same thing. It's notnecessarily content, but it's a way for
men to actually have guidance on howto do things. So why don't you
tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, well, I've been working

(02:13):
under the dad starting over Moniker namedbrand whatever you want to call it,
for years now. It all kindof took off when I wrote a book
about seven years ago. The firstedition of it came out, and that
book was about the topic of sexand marriage. So I wrote on a
lot of different stuff, and assoon as I talk about the old sex,
of course, things kind of explode, you know, sex cells.
Yeah, always. Then I wrotea book called The Dead Bedroom Fix,

(02:36):
which is one guy's musings on themarried sex life, why it tends to
and why is it once we're outof marriage, we're like, well,
this is so much better and everythingthat goes along with it, And that
really struck a nerve with a lotof guys, and it brought a lot
of guys to my material, andso much so that I wrote other books.
I started a private men's group thatwe called the DSO Fraternity, and

(02:57):
then I brought on an other gentlemen. We have myself and six other guys
on the team that do coaching,mentoring, counseling for men, and we
get together in private forums and zoommeetings and all kinds of cool stuff.
And then we realized though that itwas a bit of a roadblock for people
that name dads starting over because youhave a guy that'll you be watching my
stuff and his friend will say,like, man, I think my wife

(03:20):
was cheating on me. He's like, oh, I got material for you
here, check it out, andhe'll show all my stuff and think I
goes, first of all, I'mnot a dad, I'm not starting over.
I'm not getting divorced. No,it's like, well, we just
lost a guy, right, justthe brand, as you know, an
obstacle. And so we're like,we need to come up something a little
bit more inclusive, something a littlebit wider reach. We want to help
more men. I wonder is helpfromendot com available? And it was,

(03:46):
so we grabbed it. I hadto pay a little bit of money for
much no one else has like triedto find that where it's like help for
men. It's obvious people and menneed help and that also goes into the
RMTS like we talk shit, butalso a part of being a man is
also just like everything about accepting thetalking shit. Yeah, it's really funny
because how many times are you growingup or in the city, Oh,

(04:11):
snitches get stitches and you talk shit, you get hit and it's like,
no, the real man is theone who's talking shit to your face,
the one who's able to say theproblem, the one who's able to actually
come to you with what's going on. That's a man. You're running behind
a closed door and saying shit behindsomebody's back. That's not talking shit.
You're just running your mouth and thatdoes end badly in most cases. And

(04:34):
so we are moving. All thebooks are now sold under helpful men as
opposed to dead sorting over. Ourprivate group has been renamed from ds O
Fraternity to the HfN Brotherhood, andso we're doing all business basically is under
help from n Brand. We're helpingand bring more content creators on board and
doing like an affiliate program to helpgrow our private group. And then that's

(04:56):
starting over, still spewing out content. I'm still a content creator. That
name that has a lot of cachetand it's kind of taken off and as
you know, six figure followers onYouTube and Facebook and others. So I
don't want to just drop it andsay go over here instead, So I'm
still doing stuff under that. Wehave another brand that we're slowly starting to
ramp up called Real Sexy Marriage,was just kind of a take off on
the Dead Bedroom Fixed stuff. Andsome of our guys in the group,

(05:18):
they want to do their own thingand have their own YouTube channel, but
still be a part of help formen and bring guys into the group,
and so we're hoping to expand theweb and help more and more gentlemen all
over the place. Well that's definitelythe best way to kind of go about
it. Honestly. I was justtrying to reach out and help as many
people as you possibly can, andthat's why I thought it was so cool.
I was like, there's a lotof people that need this, whether

(05:42):
they don't want to go to therapyor whether they just want like some sort
of camaraderie, because that's what alot of people need is after high school,
Like think of how many friends you'vegrown since high school. You might
have gotten one or two dudes fromcollege or you might still have one dude
hanging around from high school, butyou disconnect from a lot of people,
and it seems like as the worldturns now, that's happening more and more,
unless that is your gaming body,or it's the dude you hang out

(06:05):
and talk with every single Friday.Like my brother he called, he messaged
me the other day. He's likecongratulations and sitting there talking for five minutes.
I was like, okay, sowe're going to talk every Sunday.
And that's my brother, that's that'slike my best friend. That's the person
I used to talk to you allthe time. If if he gets busy,

(06:26):
shit doesn't happen. There's no conversationfor months and months and months.
So unless there's availability for that,like you lose a lot of people,
you lose absolutely everybody. Absolutely.I think these groups that a lot of
people are making now are so impactfuland helpful for guys, especially because that's
how we heal. Absolutely, thecouple of different things that I hear often

(06:47):
from it, and one is myjob or a career opportunity, or my
wife or sometimes ex wife's family pulledme away from my extended family that I
had extended friend network. And wemoved from Illinois to California or something like
that, and ever since moving there, I don't have many close friends,
hardly any at all, no familysupport, et cetera, et cetera.

(07:11):
That's something I hear quite often.And then a lot of guys, that's
what you just said. Man.I had the college or high school buddies,
and then as soon as I gotmarried, had kids and everything else.
You know, some guys, totheir credit, they try. You
know. I reached out to Joeand said, hey, Joe, you
want to get together like next week, and you know, beers or something.
I can't. I got soccer,you know, I get a baseball
thing. I gotta go to blahblah blahnah'm wife's thing. You do that

(07:35):
week after week after week, andeventually you're just like, this ain't gonna
happen. And then I've had guyssay they don't hang out with other men.
How long has it been, shit, I don't know years. That's
sad. Or you get the wife'sfriend's husband who you sort of get along
with. But yeah, yeah,and it's weird because I had that conversation
with my wife for such a longtime, and it was, oh,

(07:58):
you took my friends from me,you made me choose, and it's like,
no, we built a life togetherat sixteen. Like, there's only
so much time during the day whereyou can grow and build something internal to
deal with this situation and then alsobe around other people. So it's like,
you're not making me choose, I'mnot making you choose, but we're
choosing to spend that time together atthat point. So and it's really hard

(08:22):
to kind of not put that blameon somebody else. It's really it's really
really easy to be like you,you made all my friends walk away,
you made them like, no shithappens. Everybody's so fucking busy nowadays.
It's like Facebook, group chats ordiscord dms are like the only place most
people talk now, and it's crazy. Yeah, in that part of our

(08:43):
human nature, our makeup, andthis is something a lot of men are
resistant to for whatever reason. Alot of men like this love the whole
notion of them. I'm the lonewolf. I really don't need other people
in my life. I'm good onmy own, thank you very much.
But it's part of our human makeupis that we need to so in order
to maintain our sanity. I mean, I think guys want to feel like

(09:03):
they're the leader, and that's that'sthe big thing, is like, oh,
I'm the lone wolf. I'll justguide myself. And it's like you
go to your dad, buddy,you go to your grandpa buddy. You're
not a lone wolf. You stillhave the hierarchy. Regardless of how alpha
or non alpha you are, youstill are going to have some circle of

(09:24):
people around you. It's just like, yeah, hyper independence where it's like
I can do everything and I don'tneed anyone else to do anything else.
It's like, yeah, but westill need to socialize. Even even the
pack leader in an actual wolf pack, they're all socialized and they're always like
fighting for that or working together tothen build the pack even more. It's

(09:45):
like, oh wait, elsewhere justdisproves that where it's like, yeah,
the rest of nature is doing greatwithout this all only me and mentality.
It's a We have annual gatherings inthe States and in Australia for our members
group, and when guys get togetherand I've seen them the energy from just
getting together with other men and talkingabout stuff. Men leave those groups those

(10:07):
meetings and they're ready just to runthrough a wall. They're just ready to
tackle the world, and they're exchangingnumbers and you know, text messaging back
and forth with guys, let's gettogether, blah. Just the energy from
just interacting with other humans that areon the same path is energies extra extra
report. It's it's so weird becausemost of the time we record the show
eight nine, ten o'clock at night, and I'm energized till like three,

(10:31):
four o'clock in the morning, becauseit's like normal normally that's my normal time
to be awake until two o'clock inthe morning anyway. But I'm like at
two three pm levels of energy andI'm like, oh god, I'm just
so happy. Whether it's finishing upwork or this, and I'm like,
oh, I'm just so I'm soenergized because it's like, oh people around.
It's like I'm not somebody who justdoesn't want to talk and just doesn't

(10:56):
want to interact. And it's likehaving people around that want to hear what
I want want to say or wantto giggle up my jokes. That shit
is so fucking awesome. And it'slike, guys, if you just don't
feel as anxious as you possibly could. Just calm yourself a little bit to
make the joke when you feel it. Most people accept it. It's just
hard to get that point across,to just make the joke, and some

(11:18):
people just don't get it, youknow. One illustration of the point of
the importance of socializing with other humansis in prison. Solitary confinement in some
countries is considered a form of torture, and it is illegal to take a
human and put them in his zonefor an extended period of time in one
little room because we go nuts.We literally lose our marbles when we're away

(11:39):
from other humans for too long.It's an extreme example, but that shows
you it's funny. Like me andyou, we're Dad's think about twenty four
hours alone. That sounds great.Now, think of twenty four days.
You're going to go crazy because it'sjust like I'm so used to being needed.
I'm so used to being wanted,or even just having the little conversation
of Dad, can you help meget breakfast? Or you know what I'm

(12:01):
saying, Like, think of howmany things just wouldn't happen and you're in
there, were your thoughts. ButI do that for two days, yeah,
because I would figure a lot ofshit out. But after that point,
I'm going to go fucking nuts.If you haven't watched a lot of
the episodes, which we wouldn't blameyou for. Zach whenever he talks about
his kids lights up, like talkabout Mortal Kombat with his kids, whenever

(12:26):
his kids do such stupid or havesomething to talk about, like he he
even me bringing up how he lightsup is lighting him up right now,
So like you can tell how muchthat means to him. Well, honestly,
Like my kids have been my lifesince I was sixteen, so like
it's there's no difference now. It'slike I wanted to walk across the stage
with my daughter. They wouldn't letme. It's like, as my kid,

(12:46):
I graduated high school with a fuckingkid. How many people can fucking
do that? They can't. Therewas fifteen people that dropped out in between
when I had a kid and graduation. I walked across the stage, my
daughter was sitting in the in thefucking in the seats. It's like most
people can't do that. But acool thing happened with my youngest she's finally

(13:07):
starting to play video games and kindof like understanding but not fully understanding.
She's she's just about four, andshe's completely enticed by Lego Jurassic Park and
it came in like a bundle game, so there's like five or six games
in the entire thing. She's beatentwo of them essentially by herself. Because

(13:28):
it's like problem solving. She's justable to, oh, Dad, how
do I do this? Show?Where she goes back and does it like
three or four times and then justunderstands it. Is so weird watching how
excited she got when I said,congratulations, it's done. She's like,
Daddy, what do I do now? What? You beat it? You
be part of it? Like whatmore do you want me to tell you?
Like, it's so it's so cool. It's so cool watching them just

(13:52):
kind of grow and do the thingsthat they're supposed to do and enjoy something
that you know, it's like,oh, most ten year olds can't do
that. Good job. Yeah,kids these days are getting so much more
advanced. I have, but myyoungest is three, she'll be three years
soon, and you know, watchingher do a lot of the things,
you know, with dexterity and thinkingthings through, things through and problem solving.

(14:13):
I don't know if the humans arejust being born more intelligent right out
of the box, so to speak, or what it is. But we're
consistently amazed. And she's dual lingual. She speaks my wife's Germans, so
she speaks German and English. Nowhas a three year old. It's like,
that's okay, yeah, widescreen,wide screen, Okay, the dog's
smacking you. Yep, dogs botheringme. I saw some further. Look

(14:37):
at the look on his face.He's like, now play, no,
not now. She likes bothering mea lot. When when I start recording,
that's just it. It's a huskyyep. It's so funny how intelligent
they actually are, because it seemedfor so long like everything was so disconnected

(14:58):
for kids, like when my whenmy oldest was born, it was starting
to become the time where you handedto your kid of tablet and that's about
all they did. So like it'skind of like learning the difference in what
parenting was then and what parenting isnow. Like even with COVID, she
was a she was a NICU babyand then COVID happened, So she's had
zero kind of human interaction until preschoolstarted. But she has grown so quickly

(15:24):
and done so much that it's absolutelyinsane. That's hilarious. It's just it's
so weird how how quick they actuallygrow. Because she YEA for so long
she was told oh, autistic,Okay, but autistic doesn't mean shit,

(15:45):
it doesn't mean anything. It couldmean that she's hyper intelligent and ahead of
everybody in most ways, where itcould mean that she's not able to do
anything. It's like, you guys, can't just keep putting labels on kids.
Just let them do their shit.Mm. Yeah. We talk about
that a lot. And in mygroup, I did a presentation on the
majority and that's not fair a lotand unusually large portion of men in our

(16:08):
private group are neurodivergent, which meansADHD, autism, spectrum OCD, and
so forth. And I just said, out of curiosity in this group,
the guys who showed up to themeeting, how many of you have been
formally diagnosed with one of these ninetyof their hand Yeah, And I was
like, Okay, that's not whatI expected. Yeah, okay, finding

(16:32):
these things out, Like, waita second, maybe I should actually get
a formal diagnosis as of saying like, oh, I'm this like everyone on
Twitter, it just like fills outtheir bio when they're just like, oh,
I've seen people say this, I'mthis. Treat me different. But
then when you actually get the formaldiagnosis, now you can actually work on
improving yourself. The thing is isyou don't have to treat anybody differently.
It's not your job to. AndI am formally diagnosed with ADHD very very

(16:56):
severely, and I have OCD andI have I was literally just talking to
my therapist about autism last week.I was like, you know, I
was found to be highly gifted inkindergarten. They were going to skip me
grades because they're like, Zach's justahead. I knew multiplication tables before I
went into kindergarten. They're like hehe knows the stuff, and just put

(17:19):
him ahead. They decided not to. And it's like those labels literally mean
so little in the grand scheme ofthings that, Okay, you don't understand
human emotion as well as everybody elsedoes. Most people don't. Most people
just assume and hope that they're right. The thing is is, if you
treat those people or you treat thoselabels as there's some big thing that,

(17:41):
Oh, you can't be mean tothis person because they're autistic. No,
if you're an asshole, I'm gonnabe mean. Like there's just no connection
there, Like you, being autisticis not the reason why you're nice or
mean. It just it doesn't matterthat way. And so many people want
to use every little thing that theyare or labeled as as a way to
like shield or protect criticism, andit's just not fucking true. But one

(18:04):
way though, something like a formaldiagnosis can help is like, but the
guys, for example, in mygroup, You look at that and you
say, what does this mean?Does this mean like most of the guys
in the general public are on theautism spectrum? Whatever. No, it's
just the population of men that Iattract tend to have relationship problems. Yep.
People that are neuro divergent men orwomen tend to have relationship problems.

(18:26):
So therefore I'm gonna get it disabortionatelylarge. Oh, actually people in my
population, and those people will absolutelyfind solace in having a having an ability
to conversate about the problems that they'restruggling with, because that's the only way
that they learn. They learn byactually having somebody walk them through something or
understanding and being able to talk throughit quicker than somebody who's just trying to

(18:48):
run their life through flying by theseat of their pants of hoping that everything
works exactly. Most guys that areautistic or ADHD or anywhere in that spectrum
are just going to be able toplan and focus and put themselves through the
ringer of being able to do it. It's just actually learning how to plan
and focus and go through those steps, and it's backwards. Most people want

(19:11):
to just say, okay, well, those people know more. They're going
to be the CEOs and everything else. They have everything figured out, and
no, most most don't. Mostpeople don't understand no exactly right, And
you're right if you have somebody totalk to you about it. An expert
in the field medical expert is whateverit may be. They may be able

(19:32):
to give you real tools that youcan use to help excel in whatever the
discipline may be, whether it's yourpersonal, financing, relationships, professional,
whatever it may be. It alsoseems like it's not just dealing with somebody
that has expertise in the thing likeyour dead bedroom book or anything like that
would be a guide. But somebodywho's dealt with it and then also has

(19:53):
the same problems or can perceive yourproblems is completely different. And I think
that's where a lot of people withthose problems look for help, because it's
they don't understand they can't put themselvesin somebody else's shoes. Some people can,
some people can't. A lot ofpeople will be like, oh,
that's narcissistic. No, it's not. It's part of the problem. It's

(20:15):
why it's an issue, is theycan't perceive themselves in other people's shoes,
or they can't explain for other peopleto be in theirs. It's like,
you have to be able to explainyourself or you have to be able to
see the other side, because ifyou can't do either, you're going to
struggle. Yeah, it's one ofthe most common things for people in the
autism spectrum, men especially is thatthey are labeled as a narcissistic by their
loved ones, like he just doesn'tcare. He's like, no, he

(20:37):
has a very difficult time empathizing andreading the room, so to speak,
and so forth. He just needsto help him that way. Well,
in the grand scheme of things.Guys are told to be quiet, Guys
are told not to show emotion,and then they flip out when you do
show emotion because it's not the emotionthey expect it. And you know what
I'm saying, Like it's just agame to them almost. It seems like
a lot in a lot of ways, especially if they don't understand you completely.

(21:03):
It's flipping back and forth. They'regoing to be, Oh, I
can push you to this motion.How do you react? Oh, I'm
emotionless because I don't show you thatI'm dealing with something. You want me
to be able to be your floor. That's how guys have been told for
how many years? Oh, Ihave to be your floor. I have
to hold you up to make surethat you're emotionally taken care of. So
if you want my emotion shown,you better catch me when I show them.

(21:26):
Okay, you're not going to dothat, then why am I showing
anything? And once guys see that, they don't want to show anything anymore.
They don't want to show anything toanybody. And it's just a cycle.
Yeah, and it's hell very commonsentiment amongst a lot of them.
Somebody summarized it in one of thecomments in one of my videos. Please
be vulnerable. This is woman says, please be vulnerable and share your feelings

(21:49):
with me. Man shares feelings.Woman's responses, No, no, no,
not like that. We've all seensome semblance of that, and I
actually outline that scenario in my bookThe Dead Bedroom Fixed, where the woman
says, I'm your wife. You'resupposed to open up to me, for
goodness sake, just tell me whatthe hell's going on. The man he
motes about whatever, and the womansays, I'm going to need time to

(22:11):
process this. Don't touch me,just leave me alone for a bit.
And the message is clear. She'sunable to deal with the onslaught of all
this emotion that comes out now.In her defense, for a lot of
guys, especially our more anxious guys, we bottle and bottle and bottle,
and then we're finally like, allright, here you go. It's an
avalanche. It's not just I'm concernedabout my job at work. The boss

(22:36):
is hammering down on people, andyeah, yeah, you know, I'll
deal with it. It's just I'msorry if I'm seemed tense. It's just
i'm dealing with that at work rightnow. Okay, cool, he's on
top of it. Everything's cool,fine, versus crying, blubbering, I
don't know I'm going to have ajob. It's nagging every fifteen minutes while
you didn't do this, and thenyou didn't do that, and you fall
into such a state of overwhelmed becausenobody genuinely, nobody's genuinely hearing you.

(23:00):
They're not seeing that you're struggling.And that's that's where that comes in.
You want me to be emotional toyou, You want me to show you
my feelings, but yet you won'tcatch me if I fall. If I
fall, and I'm not able tomake sure the garbage is taken out because
you let my emotions come out.It's like most guys feel like the second
their emotions come out, they crashbecause they're finally letting it go. What

(23:23):
was driving them is the fact thatthey didn't let it go. They didn't
let it go. It was pushingthem. You told them to let it
go. Now all of a sudden, they crash because they're emotionally withdrawn from
everything and they're overwhelmed, and theyjust then pound you and pound you and
pound you over every little thing thatyou don't do, and then it becomes
a cycle. Now the big picture, the big picture question is this whole

(23:45):
hiding of true vulnerability and emotion inmen. Where does that come from?
Where did we learn that from?If you ask, ladies, it's your
fellow man. Us three here,keep each other down. We're the ones
that say, shut up, youwimp and punch them in the you know,
in the arm as a little kid. If you talk to a lot
of men, it's like, especiallyguys in my group. No, we
actually feel more open than ever whenwe're in a room full of men.

(24:08):
We you know, we hug,we cry, we do all that stuff.
As soon as a woman enters theroom, the proverbial room, so
to speak, we all dry ourtears and go nothing to see here,
No, no, no, yeah. So the whole it's men against men
thing for me, in my perspective, doesn't hold a lot of water.
I think from the outside it lookslike that though, because we're always,
you know, just shitting on eachother and being rude and mean and shovy

(24:32):
like. That's how we deal asmen, and we don't get too vulnerable
with each other. But it seemslike that vulnerability is perceived as a weakness
by women, and then it getskind of awkward after that because like,
oh, you're supposed to be thestrong figure because they've also built that up
about you. And then once thatstarts to crack, everything just trickles apart.
And women tend to be more socialand talkative and open term a psych

(24:57):
term would be or a personality traitsopenness. Women tend to be higher and
openness than men are. And Ithink the ADHD people and autism people that
are going to be attracted to thisconversation are actually that person. If you
have a lot of conversations with thosepeople, they're normally the person that will
open their heart and tell you theirentire life story in the first five minutes

(25:18):
they meet you, and they're goingto tell you every single little bit about
them, and they're going to tellyou every single one of their weak points
except the ones that hurt. Andit's like the ones that you hold in
and the ones that hurt you becauseyou can't figure it out or you can't
put the pieces together, those arethe things that, oh, well,
you're supposed to be completely open,you're supposed to be completely vulnerable. Oh

(25:40):
so I'm supposed to tell you everylittle bit of me that hurts. So
that way, when when we argue, you're going to be like, oh,
you're just like your father. Ihaven't met my father. Do you
know him? I haven't seen himsince he wants to go get a pack
of Marlborough's and gallon of milk fuckingthirty years ago. How do you know
like my father? I don't evenknow I'm like my father. It's insane

(26:04):
because that's it holds true and atleast all of my experiences, I know
a lot of people say that too. Yep, I'm going to close the
door real quick because when dog bustinshe yeah, no, it's just it's
really weird. I wasn't formally diagnosedwith ADHD until I was twenty seven.

(26:26):
Yeah, twenty seven, twenty eight. What was the drive to go get
diagnosed? So I was dealing withvery very severe suicidal ideation, and me
and my wife were talking about separatingand going through divorce and everything else.
And I didn't want to end itwith me dying. I didn't want the

(26:48):
end of the story to be medying. I felt like there was more
that I could do, whether it'shelping people or something like that, or
even if it's just my kids me. Dying cannot be every answer in the
situation. It can't be oh,I'm walking down to the end of the
aisle, I could grab this andthen check out, or I could check
out and then grab my meds andthen leave, or I could just die
because I don't feel like doing anyof this. It doesn't have to be

(27:11):
like that. And I was like, there's something here. I'm going to
get my ADHD checked out because youknow, I'm struggling. I'm going to
get my depression checked out because I'mstruggling. At some point, you kind
of just need the help, andI needed somebody to listen. And once
I was able to realize what theanswer was, that things are just slightly

(27:32):
different and it's okay, I wasable to then explode with being able to
be productive and everything else, becausethen it's like, Okay, now I
have a guidebook on how to doeverything. I was self medicating with thousands
of milligrams of caffeine just to feellike a human, and it's just like,
Okay, all of a sudden,I'm fixed. And now it's like
Okay, caffeine now puts me backto sleep like it did when it was

(27:55):
when I was eight, and it'slike, okay, now it just keeps
me calm instead of it being thisexplosive thing that makes me feel like a
human. Now it's just like,Okay, now now I realize what everybody's
calmness was. That's just being normal. H And it's just such a weird,
weird path and weird problems to feel. And it's something I hear quite
often from guys in our group.We have a lot of ADHD guys.

(28:18):
Yeah, very very common. Youknow, I'll often hear guys, you
know, some of the more commontraits are I'm the type of guy these
men will say that really when Iget into a subject matter, Oh,
I really really get into it,like I die of a thousand percent into
it, and then it kind offizzles out. Non, I don't care
anymore, and I put up onthe shelf, and then I kind of
feel lost because I don't have anobsessive thing anymore, and oh, look

(28:41):
there's the next thing. Obsess overthis next thing. And when you go
to their garage or their basement,it's like a museum of past things I
used to be obsessed with. Youknow, There's there's the drum set collecting
dust that I said I was goingto turn into the best jazz drummer in
the world, and it's got duston it. Maybe I'll sell it all
these days, I don't know.And there's a toy train, you know,
I'm pretty damn good at it,and on and on and on.
Yeah. The positive. The positivethough, is when you talk to these

(29:03):
guys, which, by the way, I have some of those characteristics myself,
is that what an interesting, multifacetedlife they have. I used to
be, yeah this, I usedto be that. I was really into
this. Oh yeah, I knowabout that. Wow, okay, And
to do otherwise seems really boring tothem. And interesting thing is that we
have a modern version of that withSteam, because you have the Unfinished Game

(29:26):
library. Someone picks up a game, just plays a little bit, maybe
maybe beats it, but doesn't onehundred percent, and they just keep moving
on and on, and it goesback to the old saying, well,
oh, a jack of all tradesis not as good as a master of
h Yeah. But the thing isI might be a master of none,
but I know how to do everydamn possible thing really fucking well, at

(29:48):
least to an acceptable level, ifnot better. I know it. I
know it, and most people don't. And that, to me is always
the interesting part because if you lookback at our grandparents and stuff like that,
it's like, oh, who doyou run to go learn how to
change your oil? Most guys don'tlearn that. Now, how many guys
are outside learning how to change theiroil? They're going to go to their
dad, They're going to go totheir grandpa. Even even guys our age,

(30:11):
most guys don't know this shit anymore. They just take it to the
dealership and get it done. Whereare you gonna learn it from? Where
you're gonna learn how to fix ahose or something dumb? Like everybody goes
to YouTube now or they just payto get it done. You learn those
things and you pick them up.It's rather rather easy to kind of live
life at that point. Mm hmmm, exactly right. So after writing these

(30:38):
notes for myself literally what was twoweeks ago when we misconnected and everything else,
I only know like half of thesetopics I even wanted to cover.
So you know, we're doing agood we're doing a good job. So
obviously we talked about your dad groupbeginning and stuff like that. So my
topic titles are boys will be Boysand how to fix and dad group beginning.

(31:02):
I have no idea what the hellI was even thinking about at all.
Well, I can't help you there. No, I'm just really feeling
good with myself. So this topicactually kind of sticks with me, and
it definitely works with your dad startingoverthing and I wanted to talk about this
for a little bit is single momsare not walking away. It seems like
a lot of guys now, especiallyin the inner cities and stuff, are

(31:26):
going and having fun and just doingwhatever, and then all of a sudden
they start feeling real and everything startsfeeling real, and they just put their
hands up and say I don't wantthis anymore, or there's problems, and
they just up and leave. Now, I'm a kid from a single mother
household, and I see how bigof a problem this is. What's your
experience with all this stuff, becauseI'm sure that you're hearing a lot of

(31:48):
these stories of guys just stopping andleaving or trying to figure out how not
to or how not to be afraid. We have a thank you Internet.
We have a lot of youngish guystalking to each other about the world of
relationship, and there's this whole subculturethey call themselves red Pill, which goes
and diverts into other territories such asmgt O, migtao, men going their

(32:09):
own way. And then we havethe really negative stuff like involuntary celibates or
in cell And it's basically a lotof guys in not so great stages of
life comparing notes with each other.And one thing, one thing you'll hear
again and again is to be vulnerableto connect at an emotional deep level with

(32:32):
a woman. These days, it'sgood luck dangerous. You could lose everything.
Not only did you get your feelingshurt and your heart broken, but
all this money to lose, andthe law is against you. And yet
again if it bleeds at least inthe world of wrong and that's the problem
exactly. Of course, there's agrain of truth to this, Yeah we

(32:54):
all know that, but instead maybethe a little biased obviously, but I
think messages like mine are one ofif you don't want to get married,
if you don't want to connect withone person for the rest of your life,
I have kiddos and everything else.Hell of lye whatever, fine,
you know he lived life as abachelor. I ofen say. When I

(33:15):
was a kid, I remember onebachelor in particular that I knew who was
in his seventies, and my momdid a bookkeeping for him. You own
an accounting firm. And I wentto his house and I used to do
Aaron's around his house. He livedout in the country, and he paid
me to do stuff around his house. And one day I was like,
wait a minute, there's no missusBob. Whatever happened to missus Bob.
I bet she died because he's likeseventy something. My mom was like,

(33:37):
Bob's never been married. Bob hastwo girlfriends, one in Indiana, one
in Florida. It doesn't have anykids. It was like I remember as
a kid thinking what I've never heardof this? This is and just a
completely normal bachelor dude living out inthe country by himself to a lot of
people and a lot of cultures.That's completely unheard of. It's just a
given that you get married, youknow, you graduate high school, college,

(33:59):
get married, have kiddos is justwhat you do. And the grand
epiphany I've had in all of thisis not all of us are wired for
that? And dare I say themajority of us aren't wired for that?
And it seems like that neurodivergence,which is where this gets confusing, is
the neurodivergence of things being new instillsthat more in us every single day.

(34:24):
Because as we pick up our phonefor a dopamine hit and we're scrolling through
TikTok and there's fifteen different videos,You're like, you're looking for something different
than what you already have, Andthat dopamine hit, that ADHD burning itself
into you then also interacts with yournormal everyday life. It's going to change
how you want things or how yousee things. Like at fifteen years old,

(34:46):
I was like, Okay, I'mgoing to settle down. I'm going
to get married, and that's whatI have to do. I have to
prove to myself that I can bea dad. I have to prove to
myself that I can take care ofa family because I've never had a dad
who did it. Okay, whyam I thinking these things at fifteen?
Everything is fucking destroyed at this point. And that's the point that I don't

(35:07):
think a lot of people really realizeis if you go back to twenty twelve,
twenty ten, the early twenty tens, guys were getting shit on in
every single way, and it gotworse as up until about now, it
seems because you have the Third wayfeminist and the the New Age one that
came in right after them. Theywere, oh, men make every single

(35:30):
dime on the dollar more than femalesdo. I remember my mom telling me
I work as a nurse, sacthat the male nurses they make four or
five dollars more than I do athour. I was like, mom,
that as an adult now, Itell her she's fucking crazy. If that's
true, that's why the nursing industryis all females now. But no,
that's not true, Mom, that'scrazy. That's absolutely insane to kind of

(35:52):
hold that ideal. And it's justlike so many guys were shitt on at
that point that it's like so manyguys are now because they have the dads
and the cousins and the uncles thatgrew up during that age in relationships that
they're like, oh, well,Uncle Joe hasn't had a stable relationship because
all these bitches are crazy. It'slike, no, the bitches aren't crazy.

(36:15):
Everybody's fucked up now. They don'thave that same thought process that our
grandparents did. Nobody wants to holdthe relationship together. They're just like,
oh, it's a problem, let'slet it go. It's weird. It
is right, you know what,you know. It doesn't help. The
situation is the apparent ease and availabilityof sex. It's it's for a lot

(36:38):
for some people. I was gonnasay a lot, necessary, a lot,
not necessarily majority, But for usa relatively small portion of people,
it's so readily available it's ridiculous.It's a cafeteria. To them. It's
pick up their phone and go,do you want to hang out Wednesday?
Yes? Done? Yeah. It'slike the top thirty forty percent of guys
can have it at any point intime, and your household has to be

(37:00):
that available to you for you notto realize that that's even a thing.
And that's that's a weird thing fora lot of people to grip with because
they're like, oh, well,I'm in a relationship where I'm married,
it should be available. No,there's books written about it. Obviously.
That's why dead bedrooms happen because problemshappen, and then all of a sudden

(37:20):
you realize, well, I cango elsewhere for this. Why am I
sitting here waiting? Why am Iwaiting for you if you're not giving to
me what I need as a personto be Okay, it's a weird dichotomy.
And so back to the why isit that maybe young ones would be
averse to forming real, genuine,vulnerable loving relationships with somebody long term.

(37:43):
So we've made the case for becausethroughout their childhood they sat back and watched
their immediate and extended family have troubleswith marriage, specifically the men. So
my mom and dad split up,my uncle so and so we just went
from crazy woman a crazy woman andhe ended up in jail over one of
them, my my grandpa, blahblah blah blah, and so on and
so forth. And then so wehave that, and then compounding that is

(38:07):
I'm a young man. I havelooks and charisma and a personality about me
as such that actually getting a girlfriendand having sexual intercourse is not very difficult
for me. In fact, it'sreally really easy. And then along comes
somebody and says, you know allthat stuff you saw, you know,
how readily available sex and fun isto you. How about you just set

(38:29):
settle down and get with one gal. Then, by the way, here's
a ton of information available on theinternet to show you that sex fizzles once
you get married. For the majorityof us, so young man, it's
we're not doing a very good jobof selling the whole industry. Yeah,
and there's and honestly, and thisis kind of looking at it in a

(38:52):
kind of a redtful way, Iassume most people will say, there's no
benefits for guys other than the consistencyof the person making sure you're okay.
That's all the consistent that's the onlything that you're kind of receiving in getting
married. And that's coming from somebodywho didn't want to get married to begin
with, didn't agree with it,and like now I'm just like okay,
well, you know, I madethe bet and I lost. Here's the

(39:16):
thing, the Yeah, I askedthe question in my last group to the
group, I said, so ismarriage natural? Is monogamy natural? And
a lot of people are like,no, not really, That's why it's
such a struggle for so many ofus on the guy side. If that's
the case, I said, then, why is it? Throughout recorded history

(39:37):
of mankind and today throughout cross socioeconomicbarriers, cross culturally all over the world,
monogamy and marriage is by far themajority case. You could go to
a jungle somewhere in South America wherethey have no contact with the outside world,
and you'll see one man one womanpaired up and they will say,
she is mine, he is mine. We are a couple, we're a

(39:58):
pair work now. The thing is, though, that doesn't necessarily insinuate strict
sexual monogamy. People falling around withother people. Some cultures it's like,
we understand it, it is whatit is, but we're still the primary
couple together. Others we don't wantto hear about it. We don't want
to talk about what we kind ofknow it's there. That was very very
common in our grandpa's in great grandpa'sworld, you know, they had the

(40:22):
secretary on the side. Grandma didn'task about it. These are all things
that didn't no one ever thinks about. But it sure seems to be the
case. So where was I goingwith this? So is it natural?
It seems to be our inclination asthe human animal is to pair bond with
somebody, somebody that we can completelytrust. It seems like it seems like

(40:44):
that's almost burnt into us because ofhow kids are made. You have one
person that you completely trust and youhave complete vulnerability to. And that's why
there's such a breakdown of young marriagesat this point and young as in like
marriages before that kind of seven yeargap that always breaks apart where everybody has
a problem. And it seems likethat's exactly what it is. Is like

(41:07):
nobody wants to be completely vulnerable,and at the point where they no longer
feel like you're being completely vulnerable,they pick at it and say, Okay,
you're not being consistent, you're notbeing completely honest with me, and
that's where things break. If it'sbefore then you're not being vulnerable at all.
And Dad's going to go get agallon of milk and a pack of

(41:28):
Marlbros and never coming back. It'slike they don't want to deal with the
problems. And that's what it isto me. It seems like at least,
and one thing we don't want tolose sight of is I tell you,
when I talk to these guys oneon one, and I'll say when
did the wheel start falling off therelationship? Invariably I will hear usually some
semblance or some combination of when wemoved in together, things got serious,

(41:51):
things that comfortable. But usually it'sthe kids entering the pictures, the tipping
point where a lot of men go. Now, I can see there's definitely
a change this relationship. This person'snot this woman is not the same anymore.
The demeanor has changed, The intimacybetween dobus has just fallen off the
table. The kids seems to bethe driving factor there. So where was

(42:13):
I going with this line of thinking? So when I when I talk to
guys, I lost my train.It's okay, adhd man, it's hell,
there you go. So when doesthe relationship fall? It just seems
like a lot of those those specificmile markers that you have in a relationship,

(42:35):
whether that's moving in, whether that'skids, whether that's the signing the
piece of paper, those kind ofterm limits of realizing that something is real
really kind of cast the doubt ofwhy the fuck am I launching myself into
something that is final? And that'sthat's kind of what we're always told,
Oh, well marriage is final.Well nobody takes marriages final anymore, because
everybody has these kind of ideals ofoh, well I can get something out

(42:58):
there that's easier because nobody else wantsto give. It's like, okay,
well, I don't have to takeout the garbage to go get laid.
You're telling me I have to,and that doesn't work. Like we have
to have a partnership in this.I'm vulnerable to you. You're saying that
now this is a bargaining chip,and now I'm like, okay, well
no, that's not how this works. Yeah, I know where I was

(43:20):
going with this. So in additionto this is when the wheels fell off.
You say, okay, so tellme about Mom and Dad. I'll
ask the guy and I'll be like, oh, she's well, Mom cheated
on Dad when I was like twelve, YadA, YadA, YadA, in
and out of broken homes. Dadgot married three or four times. Mom
had you know, so many guyswalking in and out of the door.

(43:42):
Okay, let's back it up evenfurther about grandma and Grandpa. Oh god,
grandpa cheated on Grandma. Okay,let's stop there. Let's jump on
over to old wifey there. Tellme about her. Oh, her.
He's even worse, you know,sexual abuse and all kinds of things.
To make a long story short,what I have seen probably hell, I
don't know ninety ninety percent of thetime. This is a generational thing.
It's a this chaos. But youknow, for lack of a better word,

(44:07):
you know, we grew up.These people grew up in these systems,
and they sit back and they havea front row seat for this is
how couples interact with each other.This is how they resolve problems. This
is how they stay connected or notstay connected. I sit back, as
a kid and young adult watch this, and I take that into my adult
world and I do it all overagain. And then when you sit down

(44:29):
at dinner with your parents or whatever, whether that's mom or dad, they're
like, well, you're doing sogood. You're just like me, and
you're like fuck, oh couch mmhmm. And it's like, I try
not to do everything like you did, because you know you try and the
opposite. It's weird, you know. So we want to say, are
there people out there that are ableto do this long term relationship thing.

(44:52):
Stay connected, be there for eachother, be vulnerable, keep in a
romantic relationship be each other's best buddies. And so, yes, they exist.
I know them. And when yousit and study them and you go,
what's their secret? I'm telling you, do you go look at their
mom and dad? You're like,yeah, good people, same thing you
look at that. It also seemslike that if you give somebody ninety five

(45:15):
ninety eight percent complete vulnerability, obviouslyyou're never going to say every little thought
in your mind to every single personlike that's just never going to happen.
And you can trust every single wordout of their mouth. That will be
the longest relationship or friendship that youever have in your entire life. Nobody
else will ever match it because youcan completely be genuine and vulnerable to that

(45:37):
person. The second that they breakthat, the second that they kick that,
then it will crash faster than youever could imagine. And it's just
like they will kick you where ithurts every single time. They'll be like,
oh, you're just like your dad. How do you know what?
Why did I have to open upto you about how I feel about my
dad? I should have never donethat? Now. Vulnerability, Yeah,

(45:58):
but there's one kep yet here though, that a lot of more anxious guys,
especially neurodiversent guys, have a difficulttime with is the concept of boundaries
where I begin and you you andbegin and and so forth. They become
very enmeshed with others. It's I'mone thousand percent in you, into you,
and you to me. We areone. And that's not necessarily the

(46:20):
healthiest mindset to take forth in lifeperiod, especially in relations. Exactly what
happened with my with my marriage.You look at even before we were married,
when we had kids, it wasme and my wife, regardless of
what we were doing, it wasus together, and we did everything together.
We were best friends. And whenthings break, they get ugly.

(46:40):
And that's exactly what happens. Isit's a cycle, and it's a vicious
fucking cycle, because it's either thingswork absolutely amazingly or everything's fucked completely and
entirely, and there is no middleground. And guys or and gals,
it's not just a guy thing thatare anxious in that way, and there's
this whole concept of attachment theory,your anxious attachment guy or gal. When

(47:05):
there are healthy boundaries, when thereis you have your world, I have
my world. We come together asa unit, but we're still independent from
each other. Anytime we inch towardsthat dynamic, it's panic time. This
doesn't feel right, it doesn't feelhealthy, it doesn't feel normal. I
feel like an asshole for being anindependent person. I feel like I'm neglecting
though. I need to devote more, I need to attach further, I

(47:25):
need to touch more and more,And it literally drives the other person hard
to figure out. And in thosesituations, when you're out of them,
it is so hard to figure outexactly how much you're wanted and needed.
You don't know what those boundaries areanymore, because everybody's boundary is different,
And it's like, okay, well, this person wanted me to do everything
for them and with them. Okay, wait, nobody wants that. Why

(47:47):
did I feel like I had todo that anymore? Why did I feel
like I had to do that atany point in time? Why was it
my job to do ninety nine pointnine percent of everything and for you to
jump at the one percent? Andit's like, okay, Wow, life
has been weird. Life has beenreally weird. Welcome to the wonderful world
of Cody Pennant relationships. And that'sa pretty common thing in our world.

(48:10):
Absolutely, And obviously you brought thistopic up before with in cells and in
celibate people and stuff like that.That was actually one of my topics,
and you did trigger You've got abase memory of what I wanted to talk
about. It seems like a lotof people in the gaming community, especially
so a lot of the people thatyou know are just around on Reddit and

(48:30):
forums and stuff like that. They'realways looking at, Oh, well,
I can't do this. They don'twant to be with me. You know,
the stereotypical fedora wearing guy who sitsin a black room with no white
bulbs and has a fan on andyou can't even hear them. I don't
know why they're using a mic?How do you fix them? How do
they fix themselves? Like, obviouslyif they're looking for help at some point,

(48:53):
how can you fix them? Ibet you those people tend not to
have much of a real world socialgroup of men around them that says everything
right there, doesn't it? AndI do, And I'm willing to bet
a lot of those guys don't havemuch of a father figure. I also,
I also think, and this mightbe weird, it seems like a

(49:14):
lot of those guys that don't havethe male friend group, and I was
I'm so happy I didn't fall intothis category myself had those single mother households
because they're like, oh, womenare goddesses, women lead the way,
And it's the same exact white Nightkind of ideology that they're holding. Now
if they if they jump on thatexact thought process, they're going to just

(49:37):
be like, oh, oh,this woman's right because they said something.
And it's like, guys, guys, can we not learn how context works?
You're just validating everything everybody says doesn'tdo anything for you. Yeah.
I think there's like a million waysof breaking that down, because it could
also go the other way of like, oh, the only woman in my
life failed me because of a singlemother household. Yeah, and then that's

(49:59):
where they resentment. But then theyalso get the desperation towards like, well,
now I just need to like praiseevery woman and maybe one of them
will find me and then they willlike me and see I'm a good person
that I wasn't able to develop as. And I think going back to even
further when you were talking about thatseventy year old bachelor, the internet exposes
us to so many people that wewould have never ever interacted with, because

(50:20):
how are you going to know thelonely bat not lonely, but the bachelor's
living on their own if they don'thave a wife, and then they don't
socialize with the rest of the community. So like these people are now discoverable
online, like, oh, there'sa lot of them, but they just
never interacted with society before. SoI think it creates a big warping of
what we're supposed to think about peoplewhere it's like, oh, I'm the
outcast, which like, no,you're actually normal. We just didn't know

(50:42):
these people existed. There you go, And there's a lot of pushback in
the relationship game of especially more sociallyconservative types. This is the game plan,
This is the way you do things. If you start veering off this
path in a degenerate way, quoteunquote, no hell to pay, don't
do it here. This is apath. Go get your wife, go
have your two point five kids inyour house and your picket fence, and

(51:02):
do it now. Yes, butI came from a world of CAO.
It doesn't matter if you came fromchaos that you need to do this.
You need to do this now,but I'll just create more chaos. Who
cares? Just do this is yourpath And that's what I saw growing up
in the Midwest, small town Indiana. That's just what you did. Everyone
got their girlfriend turned into a wife, turned her into mom, and all
hell broke loose. And it's weirdhow once you let go of that chaos

(51:25):
that becomes so consistent in your mindand in your life at that point that
you become such a disconnected from thesituation kind of person. You're like,
wait, what is this? Whyis everything not chaos? It's like,
guys, it's okay, it's okay. Like, just breathe for five seconds
and realize that just because something's notchaos, just because something's not chaotic,

(51:50):
doesn't mean it's not okay. Itcan be okay, it can be absolutely
perfect. You just have to breatheand realize that it's normal to be okay
and normal not to be chaotic.There you go. It's mental illness,
man, it's hell yeah. Nowback to the in cell world. What
can we do about these poor guys, of which there's a pretty sizable group,

(52:12):
and in your gaming world as well. Why does the gaming world tend
to attract the well isolation. Youdon't need other humans around you. You're
in your little basement on the onthe PC and headset on and that's it.
In the dark that attracts a certaintype of people that I don't feel
comfortable and very socially anxious and perhapsmaybe on the autism spectrum, and in
socializing, it's even more difficult forme. How do we reach these guys

(52:35):
so that they don't end up goinginto a school with a gun and wiping
out a bunch of people the mostextreme example, but that tends to meet
those types of people. Well.The more degenerate, the more degenerative a
person is, the more likely theyare to be in more and more circles
that are more and more degenerate.And then they lash out of society and
just say we're the weirdos and weneed to pay society back and damn all

(52:57):
you people going out with a bang. And then it's funny with these guys
we talk about they need to socializemore with more men in their circle.
And if you tell that to thoseguys, they'll roll their eyes and say
going out socialize with other men.There's so many barriers to that. No
man wants to hang out with me. I'm not cool enough just to go
into a room somewhere and go,hey, guys, can I hang out

(53:19):
with you or whatever? And fora lot of those guys, have you
even tried. I'm big into workingout. And one thing that a lot
of men in our group especially aremore nerdy type. For whatever that means
you, socially isolated type. Sothey go into that gym world and they
say, one of the most pleasantsurprises is how welcoming it was. Where

(53:39):
I just went up to the mostmuscular, broided out weirdo in the whole
gym and just say, can youshow me how to do? And the
guy's like, you got a brotherand slap them on the back and let's
do this. And he's just likeokay. And the guy's like, you're
gonna be here ten o'clock tomorrow morning. I'm going to work out with you,
all right. He's like, wheredid that come from? It's like,
yeah, that's that world. That'sthe world of dudes helping dudes,
regardless of what it is. It'slike, you need an accountability body for

(54:01):
a life. That's what a lotof dudes need. It seems It's not
just going to go get jack orgoing to go make money or get off
your PC, because all of thosethings can be part of a healthy life.
It's just like, just have adude who actually will hold you accountable
and you respect them, not justthe dude who you grew up with that
absolutely still know life's everything and hasthat same ADHD you know, addict kind

(54:29):
of mindset where they put twenty fourhours into something because they don't feel like
doing anything else. You have tolook at somebody that holds themselves accountable too,
and that's that's a lot of likewhere I disagree with things like addiction
counseling and AA and everything else.It being so run by just religion and
it's like, Okay, where's theaccountability of the person that's making the decisions.

(54:52):
Oh well I need to repair allmy relationships. Okay, but why
is it? Okay, Well,God will take care of you if you
just do these things. It's like, no, if God is real,
which may or may not be,you still have to hold yourself accountable for
the time that you're here. Sookay, where are you missing a dude,
whether that's your dad, your grandpa, and it's the asshole guy of

(55:14):
the room ninety nine percent of thetime that you don't want to be around,
We'll tell you where you're fuck itup. And most people don't want
them around because they just want toget rid of them. It's it's it's
because they care and they're saying somethingand they're a caring person, not an
asshole just pointing out people's flaws.Yeah, this is the time those people
will help. And I don't thinkyou find that online because like you find,

(55:35):
like if you go online in certaincommunities, especially in gaming, you're
gonna find the same people that arestruggling with the same things. So you're
not going to find the dude jimBro that's willing to help you out.
You're gonna be finding someone else,Like I can't make friends either, let's
be friends, and you're not gettingthe right people together. And just like
the Twitter algorithm just like finds thebest way of giving you the worst takes

(55:57):
and the worst kind of people.Or I'm well because in gaming, especially
like League of Legends, I playLeague of Legends notoriously like toxic, degenerate,
hateful community, and it's like,well, if that's your algorithm,
that's like what you've fallen into,you're not going to find the best people
there are, Like, you're notgoing to be able to help each other
unless you really deliberate about it.Every day I open up Twitter, I

(56:19):
see how do I make friends onlinefrom like, you know, just this
like this Twitter ecosystem, and Idon't have like that big of a problem
with it, Like it mean,Zach, we're chilling. We we hang
out, and then I also havelike other friends and stuff. So like,
if you get in the right mentality, you can reverse that. But
if that's your only life is openingup Twitter and just seeing like your other
three mutuals going friends are hard?Life sucks? How do I get a

(56:42):
girl? All these weird interactions,like you're just going to keep spiraling into
that. There is, especially amongstthe in cell world, there's a major
crabs in the bucket mentality, aswe call it. You know, somebody
tries to crawl out and they pullyou back down and say, not so
fast, mister Andre's. There's beenstudies on the in cell world where they
will look at it, you know, they study these guys like lab rats
and say, let's try to figureout what's going on with these guys and

(57:05):
they have observed with them. Whenone gets online and says, guys that
I met a girl the other week, and we actually, oh, you're
gonna leave the last yew piece ofshit. Well no, no, that
no, you realize she's gonna cheaton you, and she doesn't want anything
to do with you. She's justbeing nice because she wants you to buy
something. You Only one percent ofmen actually get girls. Yeah, da
da da da, and the guysokay, never mind. Yeah, it's
like, and she asked me topay for dinner, and then the whole

(57:27):
group's like, oh right, it'son now, Golden. The same shit
that happened in the early two thousandswhen we were making fun of chicks that
were like the designated ugly fat friendand like you look at the friend group,
Oh, you hit on the uglyone because the fat. Then all
of a sudden, the attractive onewill notice you. It's like, the
same shit's happening, the same shit. We we allowed the same shit to
happen to dudes that females were doingto each other before. Oh how do

(57:51):
you how do you know the differencein between a dude and a female?
A dude friendship is I'm gonna tellyou you're an asshole. We're gonna joke
around, we're gonna have fun,and you're gonna know nothing about my proper
But girls they will sit there andtalk shit and have intimate, in depth
conversations. Be like, I neverliked that slut? Who the fuck is
she? It's like, what thefuck? We're doing the same thing to
ourselves, same exact fucking thing,while blaming them and then getting resentful and

(58:15):
becoming locked exactly her own. It'sjust like, fuck, guys, guys,
we're turning into women. All ofyou motherfuckers are turning into women.
Can we fucking stop? Bro?That's like the big wake up call to
every inseel out there. It's likeyou're just doing the same thing that you're
blaming the others for. No one'sgetting better. Stop, No, let's
go for the real click baby title. Motherfuckers, you're turning into your mom,

(58:39):
the person that you resent and hatethe most in this world, the
person that drove your dat away fromyou for you being a normal human being,
you're turning into them. You're eitherbecoming completely validating and loving everybody without
reason, or you're becoming such adouchebag, that you have nothing else going
on in your life other than beingan ant asshole. Those are the only

(59:00):
two outcomes you have, so stopbeing an asshole. A common thing I
mentioned my material a lot that Isee a lot amongst guys is the guy
will say I was kind of asurrogate husband to my mother. So dad
left or he worked too much orwhatever it maybe he just wasn't in the
picture much. Mom came home frommark and I knew, sit my butt

(59:21):
down and listened to my but mymom's day. But what this asshole at
work said about this? About that? And or if she's divorced from dad,
Let me tell you about boyfriend.Let me tell you about this boyfriend's
struggle really not somen mother stuff atall. And I understood that so much.
When I watched your video on thatI believe you called it emotional incest
or something like that, and thattitle clicked, I was like, holy

(59:45):
shit, and I watched it.I'm like, that happened, and you
don't realize it. And I don'teven know if they realize it now.
It's just like you become their bestfriend. You become the person that they
rely on. And it's just like, fuck, guys, guys, it
happened. It happens everywhere, ithappens. Happened with me. And then
when I grew up and like lookback on my past, I'm like,
oh, there was a lot oflike weird ways that that affected me and

(01:00:08):
I need to address this and likethink about it. Is that way I
can overcome connection where they don't evenrealize. You develop a weird connection that
most people genuinely don't understand. Thisisn't saying, oh, well, that
guy is a mama's boy, thisis probably what he's dealing with. No,
this is the third and fourth levelof that shit. This is that
person being not necessarily even a mama'sboy. They might not even fully enjoy

(01:00:30):
their mother's company, but that momhas a lot of impact on that person's
life and it's a major impact onwho he seeks out, who he attracts,
and who he's attracted to. Andthey often are attracted to the gals
that need saving. Man, youknow, I got all these problems in
my life. I bring all thischaos, and the guy's like, this

(01:00:51):
feels familiar, this feels comfortable,come right in exactly. And then when
somebody's perfectly normal and nice and there'sno chaos. He's just like, it's
not going to work. And becauseI feel the dopamine drip of trying to
fix something and then we all lookback hand raised I can attest to this.
I'll look back at girl potential girlfriendcandidates in the past who seemed really
interested in me, but just somethingwasn't there. It's just like, well,

(01:01:13):
that's not happening. And when Ilook back to what was it,
they were too normal. They're farfar too normal and boring. They just
like, I don't try to dothat to myself. Fostibility gross off me.
Yuck. So yeah, that wasme. That was my story.
Yeah. No, It's just it'sso weird because I that shit hit home

(01:01:36):
because before my wife, I hadfive chicks that I was talking to.
At that time, I was veryvery involved with all of them, and
I was kind of just making choicesand just running life. It was like
two years ago I could have madegoing back on that decision I made when
I was choosing in between five girls. One of those girls came back into

(01:01:57):
my life and was around just like, shit, what would life have been
if I chose my best friend atthe time instead of the girl who ended
up being my wife with kids.What life changes at that point that becomes
really fucking weird to kind of lookat and kind of dissolve, and it's
like that person's more intelligent, thatperson's this, that person's that, and
it's like that changes and impacts allof your life and you don't realize it.

(01:02:22):
And it's like, guys, yourchoices at fourteen fifteen could be life
decisions tomorrow. And it's like,not every decision that you make at that
time is, but some of themdo. Some of them Some decisions that
you might not put thought in,whether it's going back to go on a
date with somebody or getting in bedwith somebody or whatever that is. That

(01:02:45):
decision could not just last today.It might last the next eighteen years or
the next thirty years, yep,or it might be life. If you're
a young man watching this, takeaway one nugget of wisdom from this,
it is the people you surround yourselfwith, especially those you being close into
your circle, have ginormous impacts onyour life, especially if it's your romantic

(01:03:06):
partner, your woman in your life. Oh my goodness, you picked the
wrong one dramatic cascading effects years andyears down the line, the right one.
If she's like the really really wrongone, she kicks out good friends
because there are threat to her andwhat she's providing, and then like,
oh shit, I lost all myfriends and now I got a divorce and
like it's over. It's a verytypical narcissistic ploy is to remove you guys.

(01:03:29):
Do you, guys believe that there'sone or a handful of people that
you're you're supposed to interact with inlife. Do you have that same kind
of supposed to that don't know,it's kind of like like females kind of
look at oh well, we're soulmates. I don't think that's real. But
as a whole, your life willbe kind of whether my life was chaos,
let me just say it that way. I moved around so many times

(01:03:52):
in my childhood and stuff like that. And if I if I look at
the people that I was talking toat different points in my life, those
people, if you look at howmy life could have branched off, a
lot of those people have a personkind of you know, sitting out the
end of it. It would makesense for that to happen if I was
going this path and this path happened. Do you feel like that kind of

(01:04:13):
almost destiny is logical or is itjustifinding an answer and a problem that's not
really there. I think it's asupply in our very human tendency to look
for patterns and meeting where it maybeit doesn't necessarily belong. I'm not a
religious person. A religious person either, a religious person would listen to that,
and they would say, well,of course there's a meaning to this.
You know, there's there's a higherpower, there's a universe, whatever

(01:04:34):
you want to call it, God, whatever it is. That's but if
dictating honestly that if that's the answer, and you know, oh, religion's
the answer, this could work.There's different paths you should go on.
No, if it's religious and heperceives the path that I'm supposed to go
on, there's only one answer.Every other answer is negative. So whatever
choice it was in between my childhoodand those choices, those choices would have

(01:04:58):
a direct correct answer and wrong answer. And I think that's why so many
autistic people struggle, is there's nota right and wrong answer in life.
They always look for either morality orthis is the right answer because of this
or that, and it becomes sucha drastic impact to what they perceive is
it's always right or wrong. It'sIt's funny you mentioned that because so many

(01:05:20):
guys I talk to want to quantifyeverything. How many times of how many
instances of blank fill in the blankis considered good and how many is considered
bad? Like there's well, whatis the logical percentage of this out?
How many? You know? Somethingsilly like how often should a woman in
the relationship initiate sex with the husbandversus the husband initiating? Like are you

(01:05:44):
looking for a hard number here?Like? Are you keeping track on a
calendar? What's the purpose of saidnumber? Well, you know, my
wife is a zero, well morethan zero. I don't know to tell
you. You know, put twopoint nine percent. You know, there's
no real answer there, but alot of guys are wired in that way.
But a calendar next to your Ihadn't put a dollar in the jar
every single time she initiates sex,And I see how much I actually realized.

(01:06:05):
Going back to the concept of theemotional or emotional incest, I did
not come up with that. Therewas an author who became really popular named
Neil Strauss. I don't know ifyou know Neil Strauss. He wrote a
book years ago called The Game,and it was about he was a nerd
in cell type who infiltrated. Basically, he got really into the world of

(01:06:25):
pickup artists. These guys, thesealso nerdy probably on the spectrum, guys
who crack the code for how toget women to sleep with them. And
it was a really big industry backin the eighties, nineties and stuff,
and he became a part of that. He became a really big name in
that. And then he wrote abook about his experience and it was basically
kind of a memoir on look atthe crazy shit I got into as this

(01:06:47):
very broken young man and all itdid was lead lead me to become even
more broken. And then he wrotea follow up book to that called The
Truth. So there was The Gameand then The Truth. The Truth was
not nearly as popular as the Game. Game sold millions of copies. The
Truth was basically him as an olderadult, exploring the origins of what got
me into this mess as a youngman. One of the things he identified

(01:07:11):
was this emotional incest he had fartoo much of a close relationship with mom,
and a therapist told him, thisis the biggest case of emotional incest
we've ever seen. He's like,Oh, they don't like No, you
don't want to hear that, andyou don't want to hear that. So
that's where I got that from.And sure enough, I hear that a
whole time, some semblance of that. Yeah. No, And you know,
it goes both ways. It's onboth sides. And that's the problem

(01:07:33):
is you might not see it,you might not fully understand it. But
in any household, whether it's asingle mother household, a single single father
household, it spreads and that person'sin the house. That's why they connect
to their kid because they're there.And they especially a lot of our mom's

(01:07:54):
generations. My mom grew up inthe eighties, it was oh, you
know, i'm your mother. Icould take you. I brought you into
this world, I can take youout. It was always reinforced by you're
only here because of me, Andit's not necessarily narcissistic, but it is.
And as a whole, it's notjust that ideology, it's they feel

(01:08:15):
like they are entitled to have thatconnection with you because you're theirs. No
I'm not. I'm not yours.I'm mine. I'm my own person,
not fucking yours. And that's andthat's the weirdest boundary as an adult I
had to draw, was where mylife started and where theirs ended. And

(01:08:36):
leaving the house wasn't just the answer. It's like, and you see it
in so many families, in somany households. I had this conversation with
my aunt the other day. No, it wasn't the other day. I
was last year, before my beforemy brother's wedding, and she looked at
me, She's like, I don'tknow what I'm going to do. I
said it, there's nothing for youto do. It's for you to enjoy

(01:08:59):
that you did a good job.Then my brother made it out of the
shithole that he had, and thateverything is good, and whatever level that
they expect you to be in theirlife, be happy with it because you
either did a good job or abad job. And that's the reflection.
But realize that the second that thosepapers are signed and those vows are said,
that is a different family than yours. You're not adding her to your

(01:09:21):
family. That is not your newdaughter. And he is no longer the
son in that aspect. It's nothe runs home to go fix the problems
anymore. He has his own problemsto fix. It's like everybody wants to
run back to Oh, well,it's your job, I brought you into
this world. It's not. It'snot. And I think like a weird

(01:09:42):
thing is when you realize you're becominglike the pincushion for their problems. It's
not only emotional stuff. It's like, I don't have the energy to do
dishes today. That's what the kidis for. I don't want to do
this. This like when the kidhas to pick up all the slack and
you're just kind of stuck in thatpart of the relationship as well. And
as I grew up and I likewatch more content from other people like Jordan
Peterson when he talks about familiar developmenthow this impacts people, and it starts

(01:10:05):
to all click and they get likethese weird like views of how your development
and growing up point where it's like, wow, my mom said a lot
of stuff when I was like growingup, and then as I got more
mature, she stopped saying those things. It seems like I could piece them
together where it's like, oh,what was she doing back in then with
that? And oh there was adivorce before Dad's Like, oh, she

(01:10:29):
stopped talking about that when she realizedI could catch on to, like,
wait a second, that's not goodstuff crazy the crazies. Do you catch
on? Think about this? Spankingwas okay in the nineties. How quick
did that change? And which parentsdid it effect? The narcissistic shitty ones
that were, you know, havingtheir kids in the nineties that all of

(01:10:50):
a sudden realized that it wasn't okay. It's not them fixing the problem that
they had in their upbringing. It'sthe fact that they brought it over to
their kids and then got called onit. Yeah. Overall, one of
the most insidious bad things or overalltheme to a childhood, which is bad
is one of my feelings as kiddo, don't matter. Yep, shut up,

(01:11:12):
we don't want to hear it.That's not good. Oh yeah,
you talk back, No. Andthe other is that you can't count on
mom and dad here to pick upthe pieces when life gets difficult. You're
on your own. And then thenext insidious layer of that is not only
that, but when we have issuesolder mom and dad, your caretakers.
You need to take care of us, you need to help fix us.

(01:11:35):
So you got those three layers.It's like, uh, I had a
crazy level to that. And Idon't know if this is just my upbringing
where everybody in my kind of agerange, I remember so many kids being
taken were abused sexually in the earlytwo thousands, Like it was always on
Fox, it was always on CNN. This kid's missing, this kid's take

(01:11:57):
and there's this problem going on.And I started dealing with abuse myself,
and I was and I was dealingwith it firsthand, and I broke and
it ended with we were going toswap. We were going to swap me
over to my dad's house. AndI just didn't feel right that day,
Like I felt like shit and mystomach was turning and I just felt horrible.

(01:12:19):
And uh, I was like,I'm not going, Mom, I'm
not going, And she's like,no, you gotta go. And her
and my dad are standing out sideof the van, talking back and forth,
talking back and forth, and hereaches in the car and buckles me
and goes to pick me up.I'm I'm eleven years old at this point,
Like at some point you kind ofgot to respect somebody in space.

(01:12:39):
And I kicked him square in thedick as hard as I possibly fucking could.
I was like, I said,I'm not feeling good. Leave me
the fuck alone. And I kickedhim in the balls and he threw me
on the fucking ground in public,just dropped me, threw me on the
ground. My mom's my mom lostit. She's like, why, why
the fuck would you do that?Like, regardless I think back at it

(01:13:00):
as a parent now, that wouldnot be my response, Like, it
wouldn't be throw the kid. There'sno way in hell I hit you square
enough in the dick or the ballsfor it to be throw the kid at
the ground. I'm sorry, that'snot how that works. I don't think
that that's how it works at all. And I got back and I got
back in my mom's car and sheasked me twice. She's like, Zach,

(01:13:23):
what happened? And I couldn't.I couldn't come to terms with saying
anything because I felt like I wasn'tgonna be listened to. Like I was
like, oh, Zach, you'veseen this on TV all the time,
Therefore you probably that's why you're sayingit, and I'm just like, I
don't know something, something's not right, and I couldn't get it out,
and that traumatized me so badly becauseI was like, Okay, I'm never

(01:13:45):
going to be heard. And thenwhen I finally told her, it's like,
nobody asked me. Why, nobodyasked me what happened? Nobody,
I'm just like And I ended uphaving that conversation with her later. I
was like, you guys not askingwhy you guys not asking me in depth
questions? So away I was believedcause the trauma again because not only did

(01:14:05):
you guys not listen, you thendidn't ask when I finally told you,
when I had enough guts to comeforward. It's just like, guys,
this is hell. And I'm surethat a lot of guys are dealing with
just that, not being able tosay, oh, this fucking happened because
we're fucking stoic about it. We'renot fully put together, because we're struggling

(01:14:27):
with so many things that happened inour childhood, especially with those homes that
are all broken and fucked up,whether it's at home or when you go
to dad's. Things get fucked up, and things get hurt. Yeah,
question is how do you deal withthat? Like I think that's the big
question that a lot of people thatare struggling with it, they don't just
don't know, like how you howdo you deal with what like those emotions?

(01:14:48):
Like if that was a part ofyour childhood, how can you confront
that to then like either get overlike what are you supposed to do?
You're supposed to get over it?Are you supposed to ignore it? Like?
I didn't feel okay until I talkedto lawyers about pressing charges at twenty
six and when I finally I'll tellthe full story. So I called lawyers

(01:15:10):
and stuff like that, and Ifinally started talking to my grandpa on that
side again because he was my dadessentially. He was the guy that was
always there. I was always withthem. Very very fucked up situation.
My grandma and my grandpa on bothsides ended up getting together, so I
had both halfs of my family essentiallytogether and it was nice. But it's
weird because I ended up getting intoa situation where it's like, Okay,

(01:15:32):
he now knows I'm pressing charges.I talked to lawyers, I told my
grandpa about it. My grandpa wrotehim out as a will. My grandpa
wrote him off of everything. He'slike, you're dead to me. You
hurt the one kid that had thechance to do this stuff, and you
hurt him. So I ended upgetting a phone call and this aunt and

(01:15:55):
uncle I don't talk to. Theywere talking to my aunt that I talked
to all the time, and they'relike, yeah, well, he drilled
holes in his door and drove rebarin between his door into the cement lab
underneath his house that he puts thepoles in every night, so that way
nobody's coming through his door. Iwas like, so he really thought that

(01:16:18):
he was going down for big fuckingcrimes. At any second, they were
going to walk through his door.And I was like, Okay, that
made it real because it's like,okay, that's your acceptance of what the
fuck you did. You now feelso anxious about your problem that you're going

(01:16:39):
to affect your house. You're goingto affect the people that are staying in
your driveway because you don't want themto stay inside. He told my aunt
and my uncle that we're staying inthe driveway to save a night on camping
fees because they spent the entire summercamping that they're not allowed to go to
the bathroom in the house after eightpm because he puts rebar in his door.

(01:17:00):
I think some level of accountability isthe only way that you can kind
of start healing that, and thatkind of was that for me, And
I think every second that that accountabilityhappens, it feels a little bit more
okay, and then you can kindof accept what happened, and once you
find acceptance, you can kind ofrelease that kind of anger. But that's

(01:17:21):
where a lot of people kind ofblow up and lose their fucking mind,
is they can't get to the pointof Okay, well this happened. There's
some sort of accountability here, there'sno more for me to do. Obviously,
some people just don't agree with theaccountability and they never accept it.

(01:17:42):
But that's why I cycled so badlyon dealing with suicidal ideation. It's half
of the entire problem between that andnot being enough that bad answer your question
or trying to ask it, likejust in general, like for someone listening
that might have these issues, orthe people that aren't listening that we've been
talking about that we're caught up inthis, like, how how are you

(01:18:05):
supposed to deal with it? Theydon't know, so trying to find ways
could help a lot of people.And that's why I started the show to
begin with. And i know I'vesaid this numerous times, but I'm sure
that there's new listeners, whether they'recoming over from Ralph or not. That's
why guys being open and talking atall is a benefit, and that's why

(01:18:26):
I thank Ralph so much for whathe's doing. Whether I'm a part of
it or not, is being thatsoundboard to help somebody through something is the
most imperative thing you can do asa guy. Whether that's a friend group
or a dude. It doesn't matterif it's one day that you see somebody
break down and you're like, dude, get up, you got this.
The way that that psychiatry is formost guys doesn't work. They're not going

(01:18:51):
to tell you that you're strong andyou're able to do this. They're going
to tell you that, oh,you're accepted. Accepting yourself is not where
you should be. You should alwaysbe working to improve yourself. You're not
in the acceptance game. Acceptance isthe other side. I heard a therapist
say once that the key for helpingmen is to show them that they have

(01:19:12):
power to fix said situation and theyhave the tools in the toolbox that just
need to figure out how to useit versus the opposite gender seems to react
better to things happen to you.It's not your fault being valuable, Yeah,
being able to push your value awayfrom the things that happened here,
Yes, And that's what I think. That's the answer is Guys, you

(01:19:34):
have to feel some sort of powerand ability to fix it, which is
why the accountability works. And femalesthey're not going to feel valuable or okay
until they feel like they're disconnected fromthe situation. Regardless of how bad it
is. That situation is not you. You don't have to feel like the
only answer of that situation is you. And that's kind of how you have

(01:19:54):
to look at it. And thepowerlessness dynamic also applies totally different. Yeah,
work in the conversation, but italso applies to more general life situations
like a man and wife will havea baby and a lot of the woman's
attention goes to baby, a lotof the work and everything in the household

(01:20:17):
goes to baby, and husband triesto chip in and say let me do
this this, and the wife ina very anxiety fueled controlled way, says,
no, no, let me dothat. Whatever that is. I
know the proper way to do it. Just sit over there, please,
I got it. Well, letme go out and buy that you bought
the wrong thing. You know,I need this in this It has to
be very specific, so the wifevery much controls situation. A lot of

(01:20:38):
attention, sex, intimase, goesbye by all kinds of nuts, good
things, and the man feels completelypowerless in the relationship, and a lot
of men become depressed at this newdynamic in the relationship. A crazier part
of that that I learned when Ideveloped my neck problem was in worker comp
cases eighty percent and in the workyes, whether that's the money or the

(01:21:01):
change in how things work. LikeI think I came home to a house
with two kids and my wife endedup getting pregnant in the time that I
was injured before my surgery. It'slike that entire house dynamic is different because
guys will either jump in and tryand change everything because they can see somebody's
overwhelmed, or they try and jumpin and help that way, it's not

(01:21:25):
as much of a load on them, and it's like or you're being a
couch potato and you need help,and that's more work on them to begin
with. It's crazy to hear someof those statistics because it's like nobody wants
to accept change. And that's Ithink the bigger issue and a lot of
this is nobody wants to accept change. It's all a problem. You know.

(01:21:45):
It's funny you mentioned that number ofthe eighty percent. I don't have
the facts to back this up,but it's the number that I heard.
You know, bariatric surgery like stomachstaplane and you know with a dramatic weight
loss, they will often tell thepatient, so the couple, so let's
say it's the woman getting the surgery. They'll bring the man and woman in
and say, just so you know, you guys need to sign this piece
of paper here that says you recognizethat after you do the surgery, the

(01:22:10):
chances of your divorce just like doubled. Yeah, I believe it. I
believe it's like fifty five or sixtyfive percent if I remember correctly. So
my mom ended up trying to gofor veriatric surgery and that was one of
the problems that she She was like, I questioning this, Like I already
don't feel like I'm enough. IfI validate myself by doing this and putting
this work in and things break still, what am I doing this for?

(01:22:33):
And I'm just like, for you, this didn't solve it. Oh it's
over now. Yeah, it's soweird. It's so weird kind of looking
at those things because I did hearthem, and when I went into my
I went into my workers comp case, I was like, yeah, if
that's what happens, because all ofa sudden, I get a payout because
of a neck injury. And youknow, I'm one of those people that

(01:22:56):
will just keep pushing. If Ipushed too hard, Like if I didn't
have that surgery, I'd be passingout every day. So passing out every
day and not having a divorce isbetter than having nerve migraines once or twice
a week. I don't know.Man Nerve migraines are hell of a lot
better than passing out when their migraines. There's a big difference. Yeah,

(01:23:16):
there's a reminds me of in mybook The Dead Bedroom Fixed that there's the
beginning of it talks about guys,get yourself in better physical shape, because
we have so many men that arewild, morbidly obese and everything else.
And then they're wondering why their spousedoesn't have much attraction to them anymore.
Well, if that may be thecase in a relatively small portion of the

(01:23:38):
population, but regardless of whether youhave a wife or not, you need
to take care of your body,take care of yourself. Yeah, you
know, it's a number on ascale, and that's a lot of what
both sides don't understand. It's notI am six' one, I need to
weigh two hundred pounds, or Iam five ten and I weigh one hundred
and forty pounds. It's like thatnumber on the scale doesn't matter. If

(01:24:00):
you feel confident in yourself and you'renot three hundred and fifty pounds that's six
foot and you're not a hulking massof a butt plug like crimis, You're
okay. You got to kind ofimpact yourself and do better for yourself.
That's how everybody should be. Butthe job isn't done just because a number
on the scale hits like it justisn't. And so many people want to

(01:24:20):
be direct and blinded by a number, or I eat this many things where
I can't eat this anymore. Makeyour life a game. And that's that's
the biggest initiation I would tell anybody, especially in cells, if you enjoy
gaming, if you enjoy changing theway something works or learning how something works,

(01:24:45):
make your life into a game.It was one of the weirdest things
I realized after that next surgery.They told me that I could die twenty
percent of the time. I waslike, okay, I don't feel like
I should live anymore. Then likeI I'm going to go through with the
surgery, and if I come outon the other side, you know what,
I'm gonna have a whole different outlookon life. That level of holy

(01:25:06):
shit, life could have ended there. That's weird. Stop looking at oh
well, I have eighty years guaranteed. No, you don't. And the
more things you put against that,the more likely you are to end before
that. Not telling you not tolive your life, but if you live
your life and I'm going to runzero risk, you're not going to enjoy

(01:25:30):
it. And if you run yourlife in one hundred percent risk, it's
probably gonna end pretty highly. Soyou have to live it like it's a
throwaway account, because at what point, at what point are you not going
to be okay with life? You'regonna end up forty and being like I
have to have a midlife crisis.No, my life almost ended at twenty
seven. Yeah, And to youranxious guys out there, don't these we're

(01:25:50):
talking about self improvement type of things, getting better, don't frame them in
terms of what will everyone else thinkof me? Because that's what I hear
from men that go on a selfimprovement journey of getting looking better or acting
better and so forth. My wifeis going to think I'm cheating on her,
Like you know that that makes mehesitate to do that. Are you

(01:26:11):
cheating on her? No? Doyou really go through your whole life thinking
what's worried about? What Smie isthinking? It's like, so, self,
what if she leaves me? Well, then she left you because you
got better. I don't understand whatthe what the problem is here exactly?
And self confidence and that inconsistency andhow they feel towards you or towards your
relationship should never be connected. Ifthey have a self confidence issue towards your

(01:26:34):
relationship, that's whose it is tohold it's not yours, their self consciousness
or anything like that. You cannotimpact it. You can't. And a
lot of people will disagree with that. A lot of people will say,
oh, well, it's your jobto fix it. No, it's not
your job to fix it. It'smy job to fix me. Your job
to fix you, and we cometogether at the end and make sure things

(01:26:57):
are okay. It's not my jobto fix you. Work, inconsistencies,
or fears your self consciousness is completelyon you. If you don't feel like
you're enough because I'm working out,if you don't feel like you're enough because
I'm doing this or doing that,and guess what, you're not enough.
Fix it. It's not my jobto go down to your level. It's
your job to come up. Butwhat is so heartbreaking for the guy or

(01:27:20):
gal who goes through that self improvementkick is they look across the table and
the other person is not making amove and it's it's out of fear,
it's out of self for you,pure laziness, whatever it may be,
and they don't move an inch becausethe other person doesn't value the relationship enough,
the partner enough to say, well, let me jump on board here,

(01:27:41):
let me know. They're just likewhy should I? And I think
you've probably heard this sentence a lot, and I've heard it a lot.
I look across and I see thatthey didn't want to do anything, and
I'm like, what did I dothis for? You're not doing it for
them, you're not mindset. Yeah, you're doing it to make sure that
you you're able to pick up yourkids, and you're able to pick up

(01:28:01):
your grandkids and hopefully you're great grandkids. You're doing it for every other person
that you're impacting in the world,not because you sit behind a computer and
you're five hundred pounds, Like,there is a difference, and there can
be a difference. You should haveto live for more than just the baseline
what's right in front of you.Do you have an impact on more people

(01:28:24):
than you realize everybody does? Like, do you know how weird it is
to see the numbers continually growing pastone hundred thousand views a month? That
number is weird by itself, Like, and I'm one of those people.
I'm one of those anxious people that'slike, Okay, well, I'm trying
to do better for everybody, andit's like, Okay, why does everybody

(01:28:45):
give a fuck what a dumb whitemotherfucker has to say from upstate New York.
I'm just some dipshit online, Butfor some reason, you're listening two
hundred and fifty views last month thismonth, that looks like we're going to
clear three hundred and fifty some dipshipwith no viewers commented, Ah, you

(01:29:08):
think that's a lot. And it'slike, dude, you you screenshot it
and then posted it on Twitter andguess how many likes and music got five?
What are you talking about? What? I'm overachieving? Party, You're
you're underachieving. It's like you're hidingbehind an so you failed, Like yeah,
and as you and as you guysclimb those it goes right along with

(01:29:31):
the comments from the idiots exactly justyeah, and so it just I mean
it came. How many times I'vebeen called baldy, I'm a toe,
I'm a thumb. It's like,do I know you' early surprised you haven't
bought like you know the scrubs thatuh mister clean has and just do a

(01:29:51):
They called that many times. Don'ttake that personally. It's just being lighthearted.
No, or you know that,Oh yeah, before the episode started,
you even like went like, ohcool, nice choker. The amount
of comments we get where it's like, I'm not listening to some fucker.
What that's wearing a dog collar?You know? We get those every time

(01:30:15):
with posts. It's like that dipshitfurry on the other side of the screen
has accomplished more than you and yourparents and probably your grandparents ever have.
He's made money, more money thanall of them, more than likely.
And you're saying, oh, Iwon't listen, Okay, have fun,
have fun, I don't care.It's because like they instilled in you that
attitude of just like judge person bytheir appearents, regardless of like what their

(01:30:36):
intentions or like what the meaning behindwhat they do is. It's like,
cool, you're just going to perpetuatethat cycle that we've been talking about for
the last hour and a half.The funny thing is is you're a paradox
even in that you're a furry,sure, but you have more conservative views
than most conservatives actually do. Andthat, to me is hilarious because they're
like, oh, well, Iwould agree with his views, but he's

(01:30:57):
wearing he's wearing a dog collar.The fuck problem here, buddy, It
makes no fucking sense. It reallydoesn't. Oh and that goes right back
and it goes right back to thelevel of degeneracy. And we we had
that conversation probably like two months ago. As the world gets more and more
degenerate, weird things are becoming like, oh, that's common. Now,

(01:31:19):
why is that common? Why arewe wearing what our sexuality is on our
forehead and saying this is me?It's like, guys, you could be
a better person than just saying,hey, I'm straight, we're here,
I'm gay. Like, it doesn'tjust have to be that. You can
be a person, you can bea human. Like, why isn't that
Okay? I don't understand, Ireally do, but I think it's human

(01:31:43):
nature. I want to belong toa tribe of some kind, I may
whatever fill in the blank. Everybodywants to, you know, pair off.
It boils you down, and it'sjust like, yeah, of course,
it's so frustrating because so many morepeople have so much more to give
than just that. It doesn't seemlike if that's like they make that their
personality online because like that's what socialmedia profile gives you gives you that billboard

(01:32:04):
say here's everything about me, Comesubscribe or come join in on what I'm
advertising, and that's all they haveto say about themselves. Well, my
biggest cringe currently is one of thosethings. And these people thoroughly, thoroughly
fucking piss me off because it's themost condescending, retarded bullshit ever. It's
these motherfuckers that are like, I'mchild free, and I'm like, who

(01:32:27):
cares? You chose not to havea kid. Why are you judging everybody
else that wants to have a kidas an idiot because you don't want to
have one? And all of theirchoices of I don't want to have a
kid are the most selfish things youcould ever imagine. It's not, oh,
I'm gonna give to my nieces andnephews and make sure that their life
is even better. It's not I'mgonna make sure my parents' life is even

(01:32:49):
better. It's oh, I cango get whatever snacks I want at Costco,
and I'm like, what the fuckare you talking about? Instead of
Disney. And the inverse of that, though, is when we see those
people, you don't attack them onlineand saying you selfish piece of shit.
You need to procreate just I'm justlike whatever floats or boat if they want

(01:33:11):
to get the Costco snacks. Whatever, you don't get your Costco snacks.
You could do that regardless of whatever. The fuck you don't have to host
on social media? Yes, ohno, you removed yourself from the gene
pool. What shall we do?You know I don't It's okay, cool,
yeah, exactly, Just shut uppeople like, the fuck's your problem?
Oh, you can go to Costcoand get whatever big pack of cane
do you want. Okay, gomake it that way. Nobody wants to

(01:33:33):
procreate with you. You're you're selfdefeating yourself and that's how you became an
insult. It's it's crazy, man. That is such a cringe to me.
And I don't know why. Itmay be because I'm more conservative minded
in that way. Well, soyour father, Like everything I've heard about,
like parenthood is like once you havethe kid, everything changes. You

(01:33:54):
realize it's not about you anymore.Nope, did you feel that off everything?
Like that total flip where you hada kid and all of a sudden
it was like, Okay, nowit's no longer just me. No,
you know, I think not asmuch as what some other people attest to,
probably because I was an only child, pretty independent kid, and so

(01:34:15):
I always valued my independence and alwayswanted to have my own little thing.
But I'd tell you probably after wehad uh, we moved, had kid,
everything just happened. It was likea ten year period of time where
so much happened. Then had asecond kid, and then the third kid
was unexpected. I was just caughtin this machine and I very much lost
my sense of self and everything else. But that wasn't a conscious decision of

(01:34:39):
must lose self. It just kindof happened. And I became less of
a person as a result, andwasn't a very good spot. And the
marriage ended horribly. And I betyou that other than like large vilestones,
you have no memories of most ofthat. Oh no, it was a
blur, complete blur. Everything isYeah, it just blur. Yeah on

(01:35:00):
oh fuck that was five years.It doesn't it doesn't change like that for
men, And generally, let melet me say that it doesn't change like
that for men generally at all.The only time that it changes like that
is when you are needed in thatproblem to a different level than you were
expecting. So when my baby wasborn and she was put in a NICKEU,

(01:35:25):
I my wife was still at surgery. I made all of those decisions.
I stood there with her the entiretime while she was on her incubation,
until she left the hospital to goto a different hospital to be incubated
again. I was with her theentire time. I made all of those
choices. I watched the oxygen spikewhen I when I came back. Every
time that I walked away, itfelt like that kid knew that I was

(01:35:46):
there and there was a difference thatI was making towards her life at that
point. That is when you feellike a direct impact on who you are
as a person. That is differentthan just going through and you know,
living life day to day. OhI'm going to baseball, Oh this kid
wants me for this, or that. Those things don't change you. They

(01:36:09):
don't. You're still yourself, You'restill that person. What changes you is
when you're needed to a level thatyou weren't expecting to be needed at.
And that could be your first kid, that could be that could be minute
one because you're because your significant otherdies on the table, or it could
be never at all, you're justdad, and you're you're kind of seen

(01:36:30):
as a second class citizen to everybodyin the situation. It depends on how
much your impact is you letting yourselfactually impact the situation. And that's where
I think it gets hard because alot of people try and correlate that to
oh, well, this kid camethen and then I changed it. No,
No, you didn't. You didn't. You didn't change. You're still
the same person. You still fuckup in the same way. You still

(01:36:54):
accept alcohol, you still do this, you still do that. You change
when you want to change, andwhen you see that there should be a
change hurts people though. Mmmmm.So obviously we've had all these conversations about,
you know, how to fix ourselves, mental health, ADHD, all

(01:37:14):
these crazy things. But what areyour red flags that you looked for after
your first marriage that you're like,I can't do this, this thing I
fucked up with, This is howI needed to look at things differently.
How did you look at trying tochange and kind of better yourself. It's
maybe it's a little unfair, andI don't want to cast a bad light
on the exit this way, butshe was kind of the model for some

(01:37:38):
stuff to avoid, so well,everybody is and what those situations happened,
and it ended for a reason exactly. She was somewhat of an avoidant person,
meaning she wasn't open to a lotof intimacy. She was very independent
in that way, and so shewasn't miss public display of affection handholding,
cuddling, blah blah blah. AndI was anxious in the avoidance tend to

(01:37:59):
attract each other, and so Idefinitely wanted to be with somebody who was
more like me in that way,more open, more loving, sweet cuddly
touching. That's the way. Iwas a real physical person, and not
only that, an emotional person anduh, you know, talk for hours
type of person. That's that's whoI am. Friends whoever. And but
at the same time, my myfuture partner and I did end up remarrying

(01:38:24):
again had pretty big shoes to fillin terms of I was looking for a
person who's that way. But Ialso am attracted to typically like type A
smart women, driven women, womenthat have a mission, the type of
woman that's going to be like,I'm getting up at five so I can
go on my morning jog, soI can come back and do my yoga
in time to get a shower andgo to work. And you know that

(01:38:45):
type of thing. If it's ifit's a lady who's just like, oh,
I don't know a Netflix today orsomething. I'm like, it's not
the most attractive thing in the worldto me. That's always weird. Those
differences, Yeah, and people likeand you don't realize what they are until
you actually are with somebody different,like whether it's a day, a date,
an entire session of conversation or whatever. You are attracted to one type

(01:39:09):
of those people and the other looksreally fucking weird when you don't, when
they're not that at it, it'sweird. So not to cut your train
off thought. But my now wifeand I we the courtship process of dating
and so forth, was almost fouryears before we got hitched, so I
really put her through the ringer ofI want to see what this gal is
really all about. And same withher. And she's a physician. She

(01:39:30):
is a pediatric surgeon, so shecuts up little kids for a living.
She's from Germany, so it tookme finding a pediatric surgeon all the way
from Germany. She's half Indian,so I tend to like, you know,
people of interesting ethnic backgrounds, hardworker yet open emotionally. And she
has a therapist she goes to seeevery day, so she's very open about

(01:39:53):
these things and a love her todeath, and it's worked out really really
well. Now people always ask they'veseen this together, like at some events
and stuff, what's the secret?How did you find somebody that is such
a great match for you and everythingelse? And I say, probably ninety
percent of it was dumb luck.So I'm gonna be honest. I would
love to say I had a magicformula and I was going out there and
this is the steps I took tofind missus. Right now, she just

(01:40:14):
fell on my lap and put herthrough the wringer and I said, hot,
damn, it actually is somebody Iwant to spend time with, and
in a way we go. That'sbasically it. I think that kind of
shows like red flags are customizable becauseeveryone's different, where like everyone's looking like
what's a red flag? What doI need to avoid? What do I
need to not show in myself toturn off other people? It's like that's

(01:40:34):
how you try to find the rightperson's like it's going to be about you
it's going to be like, waita second, this happened in my past,
narcissistic. It's like, can't thinkabout yourself, this happened in my
past. It's like, oh,that was something that I tend to want
to avoid in relationship now, sothat's what you want to look for.
So it's about the experience with thered flags and you're talking about how she

(01:40:55):
just fell in your lap. Ithink that's another weird thing social media has
done in like relationship to divorces andpeople not getting along, where like it
used to be, oh, youmarried your high school sweetheart just because that's
what happened, still leads to divorcebecause small dating pool not enough people to
find the right person. But thensocial media, I think overshoots that where
it's like, oh, I thinkI found the perfect girl ten states away.

(01:41:17):
We met on Twitter while gaming orin our hobby, but it's like,
no, she's still crazy and wasn'tright for you. So there's kind
of like how the earth is inthe goldilock zone. Social media takes us
too far and then talent takes ustoo close, so there's no formula to
hit this, and that's where itgets really fucking weird because I don't know.

(01:41:38):
After me and my wife separated,it was a weird place, like
I only felt fully connected to herfor such a long time that it was
just I was looking for that levelof connection. Sure, yeah, yes,
And I ended up talking to twopeople throughout that entire time, and
one of them I felt more connectedto than I've ever and it changed my

(01:42:00):
perception of everything, Like it mademe question the entire y past because this
specific thing felt so different, soreal, and I felt connected not only
in a personal person level, butalso a mental level and an emotional level
that I never felt. And that, to me, is weird because I
didn't expect that to change. Ididn't expect, Okay, well this is

(01:42:24):
affected in this way, and that'saffected in this way. And this person
changed my entire perception of everything.And it's like if I made a slightly
different decision at fifteen, that's mylife. That level of comfort that person
is different. Now, It's like, that's weird to me. It's a
couple of yeah, a couple ofthoughts there. One is you're illustrating just

(01:42:45):
how malleable we are as human beingswhen it comes to our relationships with others.
A nefarious version of what you're talkingabout would be I'm in a marriage.
It's boring, it's not terrible,but it's nothing to write home about,
blah blah blah. And then I'mtalking to this guy or gall at
work and we really click and something'sreally magical about this person, and it

(01:43:05):
causes me to question everything. HaveI ever felt this way before? Is
my entire life up to this pointbeen a sham and rot? Yeah,
neurotypical people struggle with it. Butthe thing is, is more trauma that
there is in that situation, themore likely that emotional affair is to happen.
So, now that I finally hadthis conversation with my son, I

(01:43:29):
struggled. I thought, so,when my son was conceived, we just
got out, I just got outof high school. It was either prom
night, graduation night. They're abouttwo weeks apart. It's kind of consistent
with it being there. And Ithought she cheated. I thought that something
happened and there was problems. Therewas questions of is this my kid?

(01:43:49):
And she since has said that tohim that I didn't believe he was mine
and I didn't want him and everythingelse, And I had to have that
conversation with him, which was hard. But during that entire time I started
working after he was born, Ifound out he was mine, and I
felt more attached to him at thatpoint because it was like everything's clear.

(01:44:10):
But that inconsistency and that uncomfort inthe relationship didn't just go away because she
didn't validate that it was a question. She used it as a ploy to
attack. Almost. It was like, oh, why could you ever think
I would do that. It's notthe fact that it's my insecurity in this
situation. I needed to be heardand say, okay, well I understand
that you're insecure. I didn't.It will be okay, and then you

(01:44:35):
don't butt heads over it. Butwe ended up butting heads over it for
a year almost, and I endedup developing this crazy level, not even
crazy level, this attachment to thisone girl that I worked with, and
I would help her at work,I would make sure that she's taken care
of, like if we went togo get lunch or whatever. And didn't

(01:44:56):
even really have a physical attachment toher, but just pretty girl and just
sort of attached just like it's niceto have that interaction. Obviously, she
probably felt it too, but neverreally had that conversation of something happening.
But it was weird because it wasso easy to kind of just fall into
of like, Okay, well,this person's being more kind, this person's

(01:45:18):
not beating you over the head ofevery little insecurity and every little problem.
And I think that's why so manypeople develop those attachments, is like,
oh, I'm not getting beat overthe head with how I didn't take out
the trash and put the toilet seatdown. And it's not this big argument
of oh, I'm going to screamand cry because my insecurities tell me because
you left the toilet seat up andthere's something on the toilet that obviously you

(01:45:41):
jerked off in the bathroom. It'slike, no, no, that's not
what happened. You're being insecure.And it's like dealing with that at nineteen
is so different than dealing with ittoday, I think, and I think
so many people don't really have themental capacity to understand and see how things
work because they do get attached.I did. I'm sure a lot of
people did. Oh yeah, youtalked about the neurotypicals. The neurotypicals tend

(01:46:03):
to fall fast and hard for peopleand deal with rejection not very well at
all if they take rejection very,very, very hard. So when somebody
says I think we need some timeapart or whatever, you completely rocks your
world. Well, there are peoplein the world that just say, yeah,
I understand, you know, shakehands, will go our separate ways.

(01:46:24):
Everything's cool. It's not your typicalanxious type of dude that I deal
with or your neuro tonight. I'drather you punch me in the face hard
enough to the point where I seethat there's a problem, show me that
it's over this whole breaking up oneasy terms that shit, Nope, you're
gonna You're gonna leave too much ofvalidation in my mind that it's still going

(01:46:44):
to be okay. A common phraseI hear from men is uh, I'll
be talking to this guy and he'lltell me all these things going on in
his marriage, and a lot ofit makes me go, oh, this
doesn't sound good. And I say, you know, I said not not
to be too send a or toonegative here, or to fuel the anxious
fire. But have you considered thatmaybe there's another person, excuse me,

(01:47:05):
another person in the picture here she'scheating and the guy will say, you
know, I thought the same thing, but I dug through her phone.
I hired a private investigator, andthere's nothing. Now I'm insecure because now
I feel like there is already andthere's nothing there. But here's the kicker,
they say. But I sometimes wishthere was, because at least it

(01:47:26):
would give me the final aha todetach from her, and then I can
tell the whole society, you know, all of my circle of friends and
everybody else. Look, I hadto leave her. I mean, look
what she did. She's the badguy here. But he's been dealing with
ten twenty some odd years of verbalabuse, awfulness, all these kinds of
terrible things. But it's just notenough. He's that one more little bit

(01:47:47):
of AHA thing to sever the tie. Well, it seems like those things
most guys don't want to talk aboutbeing abused. Most guys don't want to
talk about, Oh I I havecrazy wife home, I have crazy woman
syndrome. I'm gonna leave. It'sjust like, those guys are seen as
assholes. Those guys are seen asdouchebags. They are the problem. So

(01:48:11):
how do you not just assume thatyou're the problem. It's just stating that
you're not the problem. People aregonna leave regardless, people are not going
to believe you, regardless that womancan walk away with every single person.
The thing is is you have toaccept that that's not the problem. The
problem is not Oh, she's gonnawalk away. It doesn't matter if she
walks away, It doesn't matter ifevery person walks away. You have to

(01:48:34):
be some level of secure in yourself. That's why I'll tell everybody there's a
level that you need to have inyour relationship, and it's a level most
people are uncomfortable with. If youtouch my phone, you're out the door,
not because I'm doing something on myphone, not because I'm doing something
wrong. I will not live mylife in the level of I have to

(01:48:56):
watch every single word I type ina phone. That's not going to make
you insecure. If you feel thatinsecure that you have to watch every single
thing I do. I do notwant to helicopter parent. I don't want
those problems. I would rather youwalk out the door and be happy.
If you're insecure to that level,you then sit there and deal with it.
That's the old boundaries. Yeah,a lot of people have a lot
of difficulty with that. And youpointed out the whole crazy wife thing.

(01:49:20):
It's kind of like a reverse unosexist thing on a guy's part, where
they will deal with all kinds ofreally unhealthy, dysfunctional behavior on the part
of their spouse simply because she's agirl. That's what they do sometimes tee.
Oh, well, it's like no, no, no time out.
What she did was really really bad. She needs some help here, buddy.
Yep, that's the My girlfriend didthe same my mom did, and

(01:49:41):
the case isn't good and they getvalidated. Yeah, and the crazy woman,
and now those women are told thatthey're right. Oh oh, he
abused you. He was controlling you. That That was the craziest thing in
my divorce. In this entire situation, I was told that I was control.
You want to know how I wascontrolling. I said she should not

(01:50:03):
drink alcohol and work because in thissituation, she has a back disease and
she's blind and she was on disability. Don't work, don't work, Let
me take care of it. Letme take the energy of dealing with the
situation. You can't, It's okay, let me figure it out. That's
controlling. Then her mental illness.She was taking medication and everything else.

(01:50:28):
And it's like, okay, nodrinking, none, no, not even
a choice to go to the liquorstore. You cannot drink. You have
medications that you have to take daily. There is no choice here. Let
me be the accountability of the life. And it's okay, it's okay.
That's scene as control. Now thatscene as Oh he's an asshole, he's

(01:50:50):
narcissistic, he's controlling, manipulative.Yeah, and it's like, I just
wanted you not to die because youdrank and took medication. Where the fuck
is that controlling? That's so stupid, it's so stupid. So many people
want to just label and push awaypeople because oh you fit this narrative.

(01:51:12):
You're just like my dad. It'slike your dad was the person that was
trying to fix you. Then it'slike, come on now, childhood baggage
is everything. If it's one thingwe've learned from the last couple hours,
yeah, colors everything. Yeah,absolutely, it really does well, Ralph.
I know I only said until fourI can see here looking at the

(01:51:34):
time. Yeah, get going.Thank you guys so much for coming watching
us. Ralph. Make sure everybodygoes and checks out Ralph. His content
is going to be amazing. He'sgoing to keep killing it and hopefully we're
thank you a hell of a lotmore together in the future. Thank you
so much for coming on. Gocheck out g if you'll use code RMTS
twent for twenty percent off at checkout. See you guys all next time.

(01:51:57):
Good it was fun, good talk.

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