#7 - Loryan & Megan Strant: Neurodiversity (ADHD, Autism), Distraction & Organization, Being Retrospective - Road Work Ahead

Episode Transcript
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Sam Gerdt (00:07):
Welcome everybody to Road Work Ahead, a podcast that
explores the unmapped future ofbusiness and technology.
My name is Sam Gerdt and I amyour host.
As someone who is diagnosedwith an autism spectrum disorder
, there is an incredible amountof friction that I have to
account for in my work andpersonal life.
The same goes for otherneurodivergent people, whether

(00:29):
they have autism, ADHD, dyslexiaor something else.
There are a significant numberof genuinely talented people in
the workplace who are, to acertain extent, drained of their
capacity for excellent workbecause they lack the freedom or
the confidence to work in a waythat fits their specific needs.
This episode starts as adiscussion about addressing

(00:51):
neurodiversity in the workplace,but really it becomes a
conversation about a muchbroader epidemic in many
organizations, which is thede-prioritization of people.
There are a large number ofpeople in the workplace, and not
just neurodivergent people, whoare being left behind because
they are too afraid to speak upabout their own unique
challenges.

(01:12):
Loryan Strant is a Microsoftproduct specialist and a product
lead, and his wife, Megan, is aproduct design, learning and
adoption specialist.
They are also both diagnosedwith ADHD and autism.
Their track records in digitalproduct innovation and adoption,
as well as their ownexperiences with neurodiversity
served as an excellent jumpingoff point for a conversation

(01:35):
that ultimately led us all toagree that we need to be looking
backward before we move forward.
So just to kick this off andget it out there, I think it's
really important when we'rediscussing this to understand
that we are three people who, asadults with careers, all

(01:55):
discovered something aboutourselves that in some ways was
a relief and in some ways wassomething negative that we had
to deal with.
For my part, I was diagnosedwith Asperger's as an adult,
shortly after I was married.
It was simultaneously a largeburden off of my back because it

(02:18):
explained a lot about me.
It explained why I struggled incertain areas so much, both
personally and professionally,and simultaneously there's a
grief with it, because yourecognize that the challenges
that you're going to facethere's no quick fix.
There's a fact about you and itpresents you with something

(02:43):
that you do have to deal withfor the rest of your lives.
Can you guys just quickly sharewith us a little bit about your
own experience with that,because I know it's very similar
to mine.

Megan Strant (02:57):
Yeah, I was diagnosed about five years ago,
five or six years ago, anddefinitely there is an element
of relief and awareness andunderstanding and kind of an aha
, I guess, about yourself.
But I would liken it very muchto going through the grief curve
where there's also there's ajourney and that word sometimes

(03:19):
I hate that word, but I thinkthere was definitely a post
diagnosis crisis, which was theterm I read in a book.
I read lots of books because itis like the world putting a big
neon sign on you or a big arrowhey, actually you're weird and
the world thinks you're weird orincapable or various things.
So I did really struggle withit because I think I'd had a

(03:41):
successful career up until thatpoint and I'd received a lot of
promotions and when I absorbedit and thought through it, all
the reasons why I'd ever beenpromoted and done well at work
were my autistic traits.
So that was probably reallygood that I could.
When I realized that went, huh,okay, and whether that was being
able to zero emotion in acrisis and just work through

(04:03):
things and take the reins andyou know there was a lot of
factors I probably struggledmore in my personal life with
family and different things.
So there was definitely a greatthing about it, but it did come
with a lot of stuff, andthere's stuff that you don't
just you have to work throughover a longer period.
You don't just go okay because,as I think you touched on, it's

(04:26):
always.
It's also the forward thinkingoh, I'm never going to have ABC
or I'm never going to be good atcertain things, yeah, so it can
be quite challenging, but itcan be really great.
Loryan was a few years later,many, many years later, like
this year, no, that was.

Loryan Strant (04:42):
The autism diagnosis was last year, the
ADHD diagnosis was not that longafter Megan's autism diagnosis
and I think, yeah, absolutelythere's definitely a grief curve
.
I remember coming home from myofficial diagnosis with ADHD and
basically I think you greetedme at the door and I basically
burst into tears and just said Ihave to be medicated for life

(05:06):
to be normal, to exist in thisworld.
And there was definitely, Ithink, with that I probably have
more remorse over the past thanthe future, because I think the
great thing with ADHD is youdon't care about the future, you
just go.
I'm going to tackle the futurehead on because we don't think
about the future, we just go.

(05:26):
So for me it's more similar.
Things that I've done well in mycareer were many, much in part,
to do with my ADHD learningreally fast, adapting and also,
I guess, probably the autismside of things as well, as I
guess I think, like other things, we are also just people.

(05:48):
So some of those things are notnecessarily autism or ADHD.
So, but yeah, I think it's more.
Had I known that about myself,things in my life would have
been different.
So it's not so much regretbecause I can't change it, it's
just remorse that.
If only that was known so.

I think, I think we've both definitely gotten
stuck there at times.
It definitely is a reflectingon the past and thinking if I'd
known, you know, things wouldhave been better.

What if my parents knew, then they wouldn't
have basically punished me forthings that I'm hardwired for.

Yeah, thinking what you could have or what your
career path would have been.
I often say I should have beena scientist, but as in, yeah,
there would have been differentdecisions in a different, a
different childhood in adifferent life if we'd known.
But life's good, so we're okay.
Yeah, generally.

Sam Gerdt (06:38):
Yeah, that resonates a lot with me too, because when
I think about my own experience,I have to say that my, with my
diagnosis, my personal lifebecame more ordered and my
career, my work life, becamemore chaotic Because, in, in, in

(07:00):
just functioning every daywithout, without necessarily
being aware that I was wireddifferently or why I was seemed
so different from people aroundme, I gravitated towards
focusing on the here, the now,the work, the things that
interested me and people not somuch, and so my relationships

(07:24):
really suffered and my, myinterests, my focuses.
I was very accomplished, and sounderstanding the diagnosis
made me realize okay, no way, Ihave to, I have to undo what I'm
doing.
I can't, I can't continue thisway.
You know I, I valued myrelationships.
You know we all do.

(07:45):
We value our relationships, andso I found myself focusing more
on improving those, but then,at the same time, just becoming
keenly aware of all of thesethings in my work life, and it,
just it just led to this senseof this chaos, almost, that has
to be reined in.
The one thing I will say, Iwill say about that is for all

(08:08):
of that chaos and and you guysprobably would say the same
thing for all of that chaos.
People who feel that sense ofoverwhelm, people who feel like
they're constantly underwater orconstantly, you know,
struggling to keep it alltogether, tend to still be
incredibly successful.
From the outside, looking in,everything looks great and
they're performing well.

(08:29):
And if, if only you could seeinside their brains, though
they're.
You know things, things are allover the place.
Yeah, very true, so it, yeah,it's, it's.
It becomes this immediatestruggle, with that awareness,
to to reign in some of thatchaos and, at the very least, so

(08:50):
that it doesn't affect youemotionally, so that it doesn't
affect you internally, notnecessarily so that it, you know
, would boost your performanceor your efficiencies and career
relationships.
But all of a sudden, your brainstarts.
You just become keenly aware ofhow, how crazy it is in there,
I think to that point it's.

I've been very open with my diagnosis, my
scenario with my work colleaguesand I don't use it as an excuse
.
I use it as an understanding.
So this is why I might react orrespond a certain way.
It doesn't excuse my behavior.
I still need to own it.
So where I've had, I guess,borderline breakdowns in certain

(09:31):
workshops or scenarios becauseof how things are going, I've
made it very clear that, hey,this is me, this is not you or
how I need to.
Anybody's doing it.
It's my ability to managewhat's happening right now.
It's my ability to take thisinformation and slot it in
somewhere, because I don't havethe context at the start and
I've had to wait half an hour tothe end of someone's

(09:53):
presentation to understand whatthey were talking about.
So I make it very clear to mycolleagues that this is a
meeting, not a you know youthing, not a peer thing, not a
company thing, not a clientthing, and they respect that a
lot.
But you know, I think it allowsthem to tolerate me more

(10:15):
Because they know that I'm goingto cop to it and say that it's
yeah, it's not me beingirrational.
It's, I may be irrational inthat moment, but they know that
I will own that irrationalityand I think it's it's.

I was laughing in my head the idea of when you say
, when you have a breakdown atwork I'm thinking of a very
Hollywood Situation, you knowthis very dramatic on the floor
breakdown sometimes how do it?
sometimes it's actually not.
It might just be a moment ofFreeze.
You know it's almost like afight or flight, it's just a
just hang on, you know.
So it's not it's a reallystrong word, but it's um, it is

(10:50):
definitely there's.
There's chaos and noise andthings, and you do learn a lot.
But I think in a good way youcan become Way more Self-aware
than you were and actually insome ways much more self-aware
than the average person is ofthemselves Neurodiverse or not,
I like to think.
Anyway, because we're so hyper,focused or hyper aware of our

(11:16):
place in the world and andsuddenly we're really worried
about Am I a good friend?
Am I a good colleague?
Am I annoying?
Do I give enough eye contact?
Do I have these nuances thatpeople notice that I didn't know
about myself?
So you really can put yourselfunder a microscope and you can
worry and be anxious about it,but you can also.
There's a phase where I feellike you can also sort of take

(11:36):
the reins with that as well, andand and try to be really good
at what you do and be a goodfriend Hopefully, you know and
be a good person if that's whatyou want to be, so there is a
maybe a power with it and it canbe really positive.
However, I feel like I say thisloosely because you know you
say that we're three people whohave diagnosis.
We're also three people who arevery fortunate.

(11:58):
You know there's a lot ofpeople who can't get employment
and and that's where thisconversation is is tricky
because we're talking about ourlived Experiences.
You know not people who reallyare struggling and suffering.

But some people can't afford the diagnosis as
well, yes, and they have to thenhave that extra struggle of
thinking something's not right,but they can't actually work
through it.

Sam Gerdt (12:18):
Well, and that's where we can be thankful to that
awareness of at leastparticular neurodivergences like
ADHD, like autism, spectrumdisorder, dyslexia.
There they're becoming far moreunderstood and I would say
society in general is becomingfar more Versed in.

(12:42):
You know what they are, how,how they present and how how
people who have those thingsMight behave, might need help,
might need support.
We're getting to this placewhere I think everybody knows
somebody who who deals withsomething along these lines and

(13:05):
it's not like it was, you know,20 years ago, when you know if
you had ADHD, it just meant thatyou know you had you ate too
much sugar, you were just super,super hyperactive or you needed
more discipline or somethinglike that.
These far more, far more wellunderstood now.
So there is hope there, I think, even for people who don't have

(13:26):
the resources, that thatthere's opportunities to be
understood and to be understoodand to figure things out.

Yeah, there is.
I guess there's the challenges.
So what could be?
So I was actually diagnosedwith an anxiety disorder at
about 20 or 19 when I starteduniversity.
Left-time, had some struggles,and so for 20 or so years I
labeled my challenges as anxietyand In maybe January this year,
I was actually diagnosed withADHD along with autism, and I

(13:55):
had, for the last year, been onsome anxiety medication just to
give it a try to see how I felt,and I immediately went Huh,
hang on where I'm medicatinganxiety, but I've got ADHD.
Both those two things, I believe, make a person maybe feel full
speed, but very different, andso it's a really good example, I
think, because I then have justspent the last few months

(14:18):
getting rid of medication to say, no, I need a reset, because
what is medicating for anxietyand in my whatever that does,
maybe I need to actually be on astimulant and things like that.
So it's an interesting example,and I've also been pulling back
on sugar and being careful withcaffeine and kind of.
Actually it's almost like aself experiment.
Coffee is great for me.

(14:39):
It doesn't speed me up, ithelps me focus, but sugar does
make me feel jittery and hyperin my brain, and so that's just
one experience.
I think there's so much therewith whether it's a mood
disorder, maybe bipolar versusADHD, versus autism, so it's
really complicated.

But I mean it's a starting point that people can
Connect more with stories ofothers and learn and there's
that really good quote from drTony Outwood, which is if you've
met one autistic person, you'vemet one autistic person.

Sam Gerdt (15:09):
Because, exactly.

It's differently.
Same with ADHD and you knowother ones where people present
differently.
Because in my teen years andearly adult years I was
diagnosed, you know, as havingdepression, which now, looking
back on it, going, no, I wasn'tdepressed, I just couldn't
handle the world.
You know that wasn't depression, that was just my ability to
process, which now, with my verylate diagnosis of autism, is

(15:35):
now more understandable that itwas a Logic processing error as
opposed to, you know, a sadness.
And I think that's a lot of thechallenges.
A lot of people aremisdiagnosed through their life
with the wrong thing because ofUnderstanding by professionals
and themselves and the like.

Sam Gerdt (15:52):
Yeah, I'm glad that you said that I was about to say
the same thing.
We were actually talking,before the recording started,
about Different presentationsand I mentioned, you know, ocd
is not something that I strugglewith and I'm very thankful for
that, but OCD is a big part ofan autism diagnosis and so,
you're right, you meet oneautistic person.

(16:13):
You've met one.
Everybody's very different my,my own, personally, my
presentations very differentthan anyone else I've ever met.
I've very rarely encounteredother people with the same, you
know, combination of of things.
And then you know I said it'sreally important for people to
understand too that an autismdiagnosis likely means something

(16:38):
else is an autism diagnosislikely means ADHD as well and,
to a lesser degree, an ADHDdiagnosis often means an autism
diagnosis as well that usuallyyou don't just have One
diagnosis, it's usually acombination of things and so

(16:58):
it's incredibly complicated.
It's why, it's why, when we havethis conversation, we got to
say we're not doctors, so wehave experience in this as as
individuals who have certainthings, but we're not doctors,
and it's it's probably not thebest path to go down too far.
If you have the means, a doctoris definitely the better person

(17:19):
to talk to.
But let's, so let's get back to, then let's, let's pull this
back into the, the professionalworld.
What, what other copingmechanisms Do we have to offer
for anybody listening to this,for that workplace?
And then, and then let's, let'sdirect this towards business
owners too and say how can youhelp us, how can, how can we

(17:42):
make this work for everybody?

So I have for a number of years had a, I guess,
a Kind of intro to me slide inany presentation that I've given
that basically talks about yes,I have my autistic and ADHD,
but also says Elaborates on that, because that doesn't
necessarily mean much to peoplewho aren't familiar with it.

(18:05):
So I will make things like Iwill say jokes or make jokes
about things.
I will go off topic.
I will talk fast.
I may respond abruptly Just tokind of say hey, these are the
common things that you mightexperience in a conversation
with me or or presenting with methe other thing that I also, I

(18:27):
Guess, probably I probablyapologize a lot more than I used
to before and I don't again usethe autism and ADHD as an
excuse.
I Still own it, but when Iexplained that, I'm sorry that
my response was abrupt Bob-a-bye, this is, and I as that, I

(18:48):
don't say I've got ADHD,autistic, therefore move on.
I explain how that presents andpeople then have always said
every time I've said it Thankyou.
I really appreciate that.
I'll be a little bit more awareof how things are going and I'm
not asking for specialconsideration because at the end
of the day, neuro,neurodivergent or not, people

(19:11):
have different challenges intheir world.
Someone may be dealing with asick grandmother or a sick dog
or, you know, extra level ofwork at home that can, on that
day, cause them to respondabruptly or be flighty or those
kind of things.
So I feel that by me opening upabout that and being really

(19:33):
transparent about it, my hope isthat other people will be more
transparent about their ownChallenges or burdens.
Not in the detail, I don't.
I don't want everybody to bedoing a psychology counseling
session for each other, but forsomeone to just say look, I'm
having a really tough day today.
This is why I might beresponding this way.
Okay, great, I think that wouldhelp with each other.

I think also it's not just when you're at your
worst or when they're having atough day.
It's also just about needs.
So some people autistic or not,or neurodiverse or not Like
structure, for example, andthat's not that doesn't mean the
pepper and salt shakers arealways on the left of the table,
or you know some very specificthing that can be that when we

(20:15):
finish a meeting, the actionsare clear and everyone's walking
away knowing what they need todo next.
And that sounds simple, but I'msure all of us, or anyone who
listens to this, has gone tomeetings that have run in a
haphazard way or or walked awayor had moments at work where you
don't necessarily know what youshould do next.
So I think it's whether peoplejust want organization or clear

(20:36):
communication.
I think that's really importantfor people.
I'm trying not to say autism,trying to say neurodiversity,
like the border, but I thinkthere's human needs that
crossover and so and that'simportant, because there are a
lot of Undiagnosed people in theworld and there are people who
have other challenges.
So I think it's important tothink about human needs and how

(20:59):
people work together, becausehow I try to lead a team, for
example, if I'm managing a team.
I've got multiple people thatare reporting to me, that are
different anyway, regardless ofa diagnosis or not, and so I
think it's not just about are webetter do really good notes, so
it's terrible English becauseone person's autistic.
So I think that's what I leanon a lot in the workplace is Can

(21:24):
we just have really clearstructure so everyone
understands?
I think that, though, issomething I've learnt over the
last few years, because whenI've had habits long before
diagnosis say, if I'll want todo I do a lot of visual plans,
I'll bring a project down to onepage with a whole lot of visual
things, and I used to do itthinking it was just what you do

(21:45):
in A project.
It's it's how you run things,but there was one point where,
in a career, they said thatthing Megan does, let's make
that mandatory as part of allour project plans and solutions,
because it's so helpful to seeit all visualise, and I remember
thinking oh, that's just me,that's just my brain.
So there are things that youlearn that actually really help

(22:06):
everyone.
Not perfect, though.
On the flip side, there areprobably things I do that the
team kind of silently try toroll their eyes, without being
seen, maybe, but that's thething.
So I think there's there's thethings we do as individuals and
it may be saying to people I'msorry, I'm.
I need that to be a bit clearer.

(22:26):
Could you be a bit more direct,or could you?
You know, I'd never say I haveautism.
In fact, most of my colleaguesdon't know, and that's a whole
other thing.
But as in so, I try to focus onbehaviour and he needs, as
opposed to a label.
So then it's not about that'sjust her, because I feel like
driving that everyone has needshelps the workplace anyway,

(22:48):
instead of focused on labels andI think, also from a technology
perspective.

Now more than ever, we have so many different
ways of communicating andcollaborating and managing tasks
and Everybody is coming at itwith their own experiences of
how they've used the tools, evenif they're necessarily, even if
they're the same tools as thetools like.
If Megan uses this set of toolsand I use exactly the same set
of tools, we might use them verydifferently from each other,

(23:15):
from either based on what we'velearned or previous work space
experience, a workplaceexperiences, and I think, with
that whole aspect in the in theworkplace, it needs to be a more
clearer dialogue.
As to like to Megan's pointabout having action items at the
end of a meeting Okay, great,and then where will they be
stored and how will we check upon them?

(23:36):
Because I will forget aboutthem the moment I disconnect
from this meeting.
So I think, there needs to bemore of that conversation, not
just, okay, so you've got this,it needs to be more.
And how will we manage it?
How will we observe it?
And then also being verycognizant of saying, right,
we've got all these differentthings, it's overwhelming.
Let's regroup and come up witha way and make sure everyone's

(23:57):
on the same page, even though itwon't be perfect for everyone,
but that common understanding,as I said, neurodivergent or not
people definitely have a.

I know we talk about Neurodivergent people mask
in the workplace, in in theworld, and that the concept of
masking I think so many peopleseparate to neurodiversity also
mask because they're trying tobe perfect, the perfect employee
, the best manager.
You know, I've been a woman intech for many years.
I've certainly Behaved acertain way so I don't seem

(24:29):
moody, bitchy, you know,emotional, all that sort of
stuff.
But it's funny how if you pauseat the end of a meeting and if
I'm thinking I Don't, I don't,I'm feeling a bit vague on
what's happening next.
If I actually say it or if Isay does anyone know what the
next step is, no one will know.
So I've really learned that,going back to human behavior as

(24:50):
well, that it's not me, that'sthe problem and actually in a
lot of situations a lot ofpeople are struggling and they
don't know.
So that's where I thinkSpeaking up can really help,
because often there's a bit of aresounding relief because some
people oh so, and the number ofpeople I ask for myself Sorry,
what's the structure?
When's the deadline?
I like the information.

(25:11):
People will see me in thehallway or call me after and go.
I'm so glad you asked thatbecause they were fearful
actually clarifying anyway.
So I think what I guess whatI'm saying is yes, we have
habits and things that we do inthe workplace, but I don't see
them as things that pull awayfrom the best the way the
workplace runs.
They actually often add to itand make it better.

Sam Gerdt (25:32):
Yeah, yeah.
I think the topic ofneurodiversity is a jumping off
point for Getting into this ideaof just the, the the great need
for human connection in aworkplace, not forgetting that
we're not, as the expression is,cogs in a wheel or in a cogs in
a machine, but that we areindividuals with individual

(25:56):
needs, neurodivergent or not.
Neurodivergent or not, eachperson on a team is going to
have their own needs, and thoseneeds are going to change day by
day, is some, some may be moreconsistent.
So a person with ADHD is goingto have a specific set of needs
that aren't going to change dayby day necessarily.
But then there's the otherstuff that happens, that that

(26:18):
maybe makes someone more anxiousor more sad or Lated or
whatever, and so we need toaccount for for all of that as
individuals on a team,regardless of any label that you
might put on it, and just bechecking in with people and be
aware that we're working withdifferent people.

(26:39):
And then the other thing thatLorian mentioned is this idea
that technology always improves.
You know we have more optionsnow in this piece of tech or we
have more pieces of tech, so now, therefore, we're going to do a
better job.
It's just, it's false, and Ithink we're seeing more of a

(27:04):
walk back on this in certainpockets of tech.
But we've got to understand, Ithink, that already people are
overwhelmed.
The average midsize businesshas, I think, 60 or 70 pieces of
tech that run their company, 60or 70 platforms that people
have to be aware of and have toknow how to use in order to get

(27:26):
their work done.
That's overwhelming for a lotof people, neurodivergent or not
.
And so the idea of simplifyinghow we get from point A to point
B, how much friction there isthere.
I think it's an incrediblyhelpful topic.
Again, this is just the jumpingoff point, but for everyone.

(27:47):
So I'm really happy that bothof those things came up, because
they're both connected to thisidea of let's just make the
workplace more people friendly.

I think a lot of times organizations will focus
on the culture, the psyche, theoperating model, the branding,
things like that, but a lot oftimes the actual not saying the
challenges, but a lot of timesmany of the challenges that

(28:19):
people face in the organization,where neurodivergent or not is
the small things, the smallsteps that they've got to do
every day that could beautomated or could be done by
some other process or connectedsome other way that I think
organizations don't look atbecause they will say, oh,
that's not important, it's asmall thing, it takes you a few

(28:39):
seconds.
It's not that it takes you a fewseconds, it takes space in your
brain.
It's a thing that needs to beperformed, so you need to know
how to do it.
It's a thing that needs to betransposed to someone else who
maybe take the job or step intothe team.
So it's just occupying space inpeople's minds and that

(29:01):
presents, I think, more,probably more visibly or more
extreme in neurodivergent people, because that is a precious
commodity or precious resourcein how much it can be processed
at a particular time and whatorder and those things.
And I think that that's whereorganizations in all honesty for
both neurodivergent but justthemselves need to sometimes go

(29:24):
hey, this new shiny thing overhere is all fantastic, but
sometimes it's the little stuffand it might be user training on
how to use tools, or it mightbe, hey, let's build this thing
because, yeah, it's not aboutthe saving of the time or saving
of the dollars, it's saving ourpeople's brains and their
frustration levels on a dailybasis or a weekly basis.
That, yeah, I think needs to bekind of thought of.

It's interesting you just made me think about.
We tend to focus on the peoplewho are doing really well.
Maybe this is generalizationand think people struggling and
complaining in the workplacethey're just negative or
something negative about thosepeople.
But if you took the people whoare struggling the most and
actually talked to them and madechanges, then maybe you would

(30:08):
actually surface people who arestruggling because of all those
reasons.
Like I come into the workplace,maybe I've got a lot of things
I'm capable of and can add tothis company that I'm in
hypothetically, and maybe just asimple way people communicate
to me wears me down and it'soverwhelming and so I can't
bring out my best.

(30:29):
But yet I can easily get leftbehind because people make
judgments about me, you know.
So if we actually thought moreabout how the way we work and
how the tools and this I'm blownaway by the number of tools you
just said before, because Ifind even just chat, as in
instant messaging, impacts myday in- a huge way.

(30:52):
Sometimes it's amazing but tohave my if you think of my focus
as a conveyor belt and thethings that I'm doing, it's hard
with ADHD to get my brain to goon to the conveyor belt all the
channels at the same time and Ican do really good work.
But when that, when I get achat or a call, it's severed and
it takes me a lot tore-initiate that powerful work

(31:14):
that I was doing.
So there's all, and that's justone example, and I think
there's a kind of over the statabout this.

It takes you X amount of time to get back to
the thought you had, and I thinkthat a lot of this and this is
partially why we're seeing arise in the increase of ADHD
diagnosis Because we have somany more tools in the workplace
, especially the rise of chattools, which are not a new thing
, but they're just so mainstreamnow, because, while, yes, we

(31:43):
work in the Microsoft space to apoint, and you know we use
Microsoft Teams, you know thereis slack, but also before
Microsoft Teams they'll Skypefor business and before that.
So these things have it's justthe fact that they're there now
and almost on by default foreveryone, and so, to that point
as well, things like a personstruggling in the workplace with
overwhelm.
And you know if you sat themdown and said, okay, what's the

(32:06):
problem?
Oh, too many chat messages, andit might be a case of well, let
me show you how to tweak thenotifications so you're not
getting bombarded left, rightand center with pop ups all the
time.
But also part of it might behow we work and how your
colleagues work and those kindof things.
So you know, show you how tochange your settings.
Show other people how maybe youconstantly at mentioning the

(32:29):
team every single time isactually broadcasting to
everyone's heads.
My colleagues know that mynotifications in teams are
turned off.
I get zero notifications on myphone, on teams, on other things
, unless it's basically a call,which means it's important.
So I will have people justgoing, you know, send me a
message and then afterwards gohello, you are available, you

(32:52):
must be responding.
Just because my presence isavailable doesn't mean my brain
is available, my attention,right.

Sam Gerdt (32:57):
And.

I think that's a thing that is not just a
neurodivergent thing.
It's a.
It's a challenge in theworkplace that I think probably
is more surfaced fromneurodivergent folks that
organizations could learn fromand benefit.

What we said something earlier about.
Well, we heavily simplified butbecause we, through diagnosis
and learning about things youknow, we've I know we've both
talked a lot and presented Onexecutive functioning, for
example, and how our brain worksand the things we struggle with
.
So to have that self awareness,to take that back into a company

(33:30):
, we've both presented at workpreviously.
You know, when we used to worktogether, the company got us to
present and talk about toeveryone.
So to talk to everyone aboutexecutive function is human, the
human brain.
So it's not just that we havechallenges because we're
autistic and you all need totreat us a certain way, going
back to it being the human brain, human behavior.

(33:51):
But I think what the benefit ofwhat neurodivergent people
bring into a company is if wehave that self awareness and
we've learned about ourselves,driving that awareness of human
behavior and human struggle andhuman thinking into the business
more helps everyone.
I think that's a really keything, that it's not just let's
be kinder or different becausethere could be some autistic

(34:13):
people or some dyslexic peoplethat we're working with.
It's actually let's communicateclearly so everyone always
understands what's going on, andI think that's that's very
different and that's where wecan get to eventually.

And it's funny to that point actually, that
comment where you know, I'm surewe've all heard somebody say,
oh, I'm a little bit ADHD aswell, or I'm a little bit
autistic as well.
Technically, yes, because theyare.
Executive function, whicheverybody has, is just for us
it's different.
So yes, technically you are,but you know that's an
oversimplification and can beseen as an insult.

(34:49):
But I felt a surge, which I know, because that's thing is, our
view of it is different.
But, as I said, people atTomegan's point, that executive
function exists for everybodyand things like notifications
being overwhelming for people isan absolutely valid problem for
everybody, neurodiversion ornot.

(35:10):
But it depends on your job, andso that's a thing is we can't
just go oh, you know thatperson's ADHD, they're too
flighty and distracted.
No, that person can actually bedistracted because they keep
popping up with messages overand over and over and the human
eye is drawn to it and there's achime that goes with it.
So cool Change that they don'thave to have ADHD to be

(35:32):
distracted.

This is where they're being.
That's exactly right ADHD andautism.
We should say what was thequestion actually saying that
you asked?

Oh no, cars electric vehicles.

Sam Gerdt (35:44):
No, you're right.
You're right, it's we'rewandering here, that's okay.
I wanted to interject and justsay Lorian mentioned attention
switching, which is, I think,the term.
The actual figure I'm aware ofthis is 20 minutes.
It takes 20 minutes to switchback from, from just losing your
attention, and so you thinkabout someone with ADHD who

(36:06):
maybe loses their attention alittle bit more easily, or or
maybe that number is even longerthan 20 minutes.
Yeah, the cost of thosenotifications.
I'm going to go ahead and plugsome really great books here
that this is something that Iknow a lot about.
I've read a lot about the worksof Cal Newport.
For anybody who's read thosevery good books they're not

(36:29):
books for people who arenecessarily neurodivergent.
They're books for people whofind themselves stuck in shallow
work and with an understandthat by being able to focus on
work more deeply you're able toget more done.
And so he advocates in his bookDeep Work for shutting

(36:49):
everything down, secludingyourself and focusing for longer
periods of time to get goodwork done.
And he has other books todigital minimalism, a world
without email, that all kind ofreiterate some of these same
things that we're talking aboutTurn off the notifications,
seclude yourself, and headvocates for companies taking

(37:14):
action in these areas too,because so often what you see,
especially in tech, is you'reexpected to do a certain amount
of work, but then you're alsoexpected to attend a meeting
every 30 minutes or a meetingevery hour.
You're expected to do a certainamount of work, but you're also
expected to keep notificationson and be constantly chatting or
emailing.
And he says you know, ifbusinesses really want to unlock

(37:38):
the potential of theiremployees, they need to
recognize the cost ofdistraction, and it is, it's a
very high cost.

And I think it's absolutely great.
And one of the things that Ifind with is also this aspect
around the etiquette and howpeople handle things, because I
will send a team's chat messageanytime of the day, I don't care
what your presence is.
That's because my expectationis, unless it's urgent, I don't
expect you to respond.
So I've had people, you know,receiving my messages on a

(38:08):
Saturday and going I'm just outwith family and this will sound
cold, I don't care, I didn'texpect you to read it, you know,
or it's my day off, but what amI going to do is send you an
email.
You might get read that as well.
That how you receive themessage is different.
But I think that's the problem.
And I said, you know where Isay I don't care, Allegedly, let
me do if they think they needto respond to me, you know.

(38:31):
Then I'm like, hey, hey, no.
So I will now, you know, addthat preface to say hey, please
don't read this until you knowyou're back online or don't
respond.
But I think that's as I said,it's like a two way thing and
those people aren't necessarilynew to neurodivergence.
So it's a etiquette aspect aswell and understanding.

I hate to say like it sounds terrible, but that
there's some part of that that Ifeel is self centered, though,
because I deliberately do theopposite.
So, particularly with my boss,I have a standing kind of
notebook, but literally when Ihave my weekly one on one, I
have a little block in mycalendar that's called notes,
and whenever things come upacross the week I put them in

(39:14):
there.
So when we meet on Mondays, Igo.

I buy six dot points.

What do you want to talk about?
We table his sort of stuff.
What's the priority?
Let's do this first.

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.

And so and I've gone back to I actually will
email more or do the same forother people, because I'm aware
that with ADHD, I have lots ofthings firing in my brain and
that doesn't mean people need tobe receiving them all the time
my brain is firing.
So I am getting better at kindof clustering thoughts together
and then consolidating them andthen having a meeting with

(39:47):
someone and go here's what I'vebeen thinking about, say this
client and some thoughts on itand let's discuss, as opposed to
a chat and then a chat here.
So I think you need to becareful, because all you've done
by sending something out ofours is like throwing a tennis
ball over to someone and waitingfor it to come back, and I just
think sometimes we need tothink about the value of doing

(40:08):
that and how it impacts the flowof work.
Does it just get sit there fora while, like?
I feel I need to have morecontrol and structure.
There's a trait that's funny,you know, on all the
consolidated information withsomething and for it to be
handled in an instance anddiscussed.
That just said a lot about me,though, didn't it?

But I think that's the point, though, is
like I completely get whereyou're coming from and we've got
the ability to delay emails.
We've never been in teams, andI'm not sure about Slack and
others the ability to delay chatmessages to and even I don't
mean teams actually pops upsaying, hey, this person's
working hours and only this.
Do you want to wait?
And you know, yes, me saying Idon't care does sound quite

(40:48):
flippant and self-centered.
The reality is, as I do care ifI'm interrupting them, but this
is the kind of wholebidirectional thing that the
technology just having it theredoesn't mean that the problem is
fixed.
People need to be educated onthe capabilities of the
technology and also then educateon the etiquette of things,

(41:13):
because I think your point aboutnot just sending random things
makes sense.
But if it is just a hey, checkout this screenshot, that's it,
or just a quick one liner, Ishouldn't have to go.
I'm going to wait until this.

I get it.

But that is the problem is how we manage the
micro interactions versus themore macro ones and what works,
and what works for one person.
I've got one colleague is nowsend me a chat message anytime
of the day.
We've got other colleagues toyour point in the Cal Newport
suggestion, who have their teamsand outlook shut down for most
of the day.

I've read.
I did read a few Cal Newportbooks.
I think they're fantastic.
I also read stolen focus morerecently and a few other things
on dopamine as well, and so I dothink that I'm more focused
these days on quality time withmy brain at work.
You know, as in this, task needsto get done what is actually

(42:11):
the best way for a group toachieve that, because I don't
want to have meetings where wethrow things around, come back
two days later.
So I now will say to people Ihad one the other day and I said
the purpose of this meeting isa decision.
I'm going to take you on ajourney.
I have visuals for this product.
I want you to have a thinkabout it because there's one key
decision we need at the end.
So I give a lot of structureand sort of preface things so we

(42:32):
get something achieved thatreally needs to be achieved, as
opposed to Lucid discussions.
But it's funny one thing that Ialso one of my little litmus
test in a way, with somethoughts that I think I'll send
a chat is sometimes I actuallyask myself if we were all in the
open plan working in thebuilding that day, would I go?
Hey, john, because remember inthe old days when we worked as a

(42:53):
team, physically you'd go Alexhey, can I just ask, is it that
important that I want to askthem right now?
Would I break their focus orwould I actually put it to the
side and have some of thosethings I think we need to
rethink because we've gotteninto a habit in society of
thought pink.

Yes.

And that's insane.
It doesn't need to happen thatway.

Sam Gerdt (43:13):
So, yeah, my, my own observation is because I had, I
had a little bit of experiencein the workforce before the
advent of really the advent ofsmartphones on a mass scale, all
of the all of the technologies.
So when I came in, you're freshout of school to do to do

(43:35):
office work.
The expectations were very easy.
You had email and you had theproject management system, which
was incredibly simple it was.
It was, it was very simple andI wasn't really struggling with
with work chaos, with with brainchaos.
I could function very well inthat system.

(43:58):
Now there were other issues thatI had to deal with, but they
weren't.
They weren't what we're talkingabout.
That, that what Iccoli.
Or to set a task, I need tocheck 30 boxes and write in 15

(44:27):
textings and there's four dropdowns and I have to ask three
people and it just gets far morecomplicated.
And then the idea ofnotifications.
I think Steve Jobs was abrilliant designer, but that
little red dot and maybe it wasMark Zuckerberg, I don't know
who did it.
I don't know who did it, butthat little red dot, whoever did

(44:50):
that, I don't like them.
It was terrible.

And even or a ping , because do you so we have our
phones in a different area ofthe house.
Part of it is a lot to do withthe wrong modeling and that.
This thing, we don't want thisthing to be in your life, in
front of you.
But naturally when it pings youdo leave and go to it and go
what's that thing so.

I don't know.

But yeah, it's interesting when you see
yourself becoming a slave to asound because it's what if it is
an urgent thing or it's FOMO orwhatever?
But the way people and to havechildren who don't have phones
and not be a slave to a ping,I'm very aware that I can see
that over the next five yearsthey probably will become

(45:41):
reactive to the things they'renot even in their life right now
and that's really interesting.
I think it's like the old usand then the real us.
It sort of shows you.

And I think that to that point, I absolutely hate
the unread notification, I hatethe item count, I hate the push
notification, I hate thenotification sound and to that
point I will flat out, as saidearlier, I've turned off
notifications.
So I will, quite happily, andalso I think a lot of them for
me has been the mental training.

(46:09):
So I will sit there in ameeting and I will see my team's
notification count actuallyincrease and get to a point
where it's nine plus, because itdoesn't go above that.
It just says nine plus and Imight come back on this 15.
I've actually gotten reallygood at ignoring it because I've
effectively mentally trainedmyself to say I will put my
attention where it needs to bewhen I want it to be there.

(46:32):
Now, if somebody wants somethingurgently, I'm very clear to say
call me, call me, because thatwill interrupt anything I'm
doing.
I get that notification whetherit's on the computer, on my
phone, but I have yeah, as Isaid, it's a combination of
turning those off because Ihated the fact that there would
be a pin and you'd go oh, I knowthat sound, it's from that

(46:54):
program, I'll go check it.
There is the side where I comeback and there's been an entire
conversation thread that I'vemissed out on that.
Maybe, I should have steppedinto earlier, so be it, but it's
the not being drawn in.
I was like I want to rule wheremy attention goes, as opposed
to having other notifications orother systems do it because

(47:16):
they think they are the mostimportant application, not
people, be very clear.
The application doing it.

It's interesting that you and I've made decisions
on that as well.
I leave my.
I have two monitors in mycomputer.
My second monitor I've putperpendicular and I have it.
It's long.
I have my communication app I'mtrying not to be Microsoft
centric my communicationapplication and my email.
I leave my email on my calendarbecause I'm a big time blocker.

(47:42):
So I'll look at my calendar andgo.
All I need to be doing rightnow is writing that proposal.
If things really like I don'tneed to be checking my email
because the reality is it's onehour or it's three hours, if I
didn't reply to email from 9 amuntil 12, like, that's the thing
we all need to think about abit more.
I think it's a whole otherconversation, but I will.

(48:03):
I don't do anything else in ameeting, I think.
I'm very engaged in meetings.
I hate it when I can tellothers are on email because I
think what is the point of beinghere if we're not going to be
engaged and be in this topic?
But I will check, check, checkchat because sometimes, like
with a client, someone in theproject team will be messaging
going oh they're across that orwe can't give them more budget

(48:25):
there's.
I need to kind of be sort ofyeah.
So there are the things that wecarve out, the way we work and
what works for us.

And I think people need to do that more,
because to that point I actuallyfrom yeah, I don't like having
my email open and visible.
It is open all day but I don'tcheck it because I'm not drawn
to it unless I want to go checkit.
But what I do have is, yes, I'ma nerd.
So I custom built myself asmall app that shows basically
my calendar, what's coming upand how long they're for and

(48:55):
what tasks are on for the day.
And I also needed to have thedopamine hit.
So I also have like a statscount showing how many have been
completed and how many remain,so that I can see my progress
through the day.
But also you, obviously.
What you can't see is right nowand it's turned off.
But I have a monitor above thismain monitor that shows those

(49:17):
tasks and the calendar.
So I've got that at a glanceavailable to me instead of being
opening up another screen oranother application and being
drawn into those things.
So that's where I've reallycontrolled it to the nth degree
to say that I need thisinformation.
So I'm going to extract it andshow it in a way that works for
me so that I can really controlthat experience for myself and

(49:41):
not be missing meetings becauseI didn't have my calendar open,
or things like that.

So what we've effectively done is we've both
got learned more about ourselves, carved out the way we work
best and literally make aneffort to surface what we need
to see and shut out other things.
We're actually doing that.

The other thing as well, from that meeting
perspective, is we both havestanding desks and so, while
this is a technology and yes,I've been the nerd I am have
connected it to my meetingplatform.
So when I join a meeting, mydesk goes up.
But I also have a large arrayof fidget toys here and I will
deliberately, when my desk goesup, because I need to pace, I

(50:18):
need to move, I will step backfrom my desk and have a fidget
toy to keep my hands busy, tostop me from wanting to click
and look at other things, eventhough I don't need to.
Because that point about themeeting chat being up to date
with that, yeah, sure, that'sabsolutely relevant and I do
that from time to time, but forthe most part, I'm the guy who

(50:41):
has historically said sorry,what a dog barked or there was a
noise.
I didn't hear what you said.
Could you repeat that?
Which is actually me not payingattention.
So I make sure to give my 100%attention, but I don't know that
comes with.
I don't know if you have toedit this out resting asshole
face, because the level ofcontrol that it takes, the level

(51:02):
of brain effort that itrequires me to be 100% focused
means I have that face, so hencewhy I need fidget toys to kind
of help me break out of that alittle bit.

Sam Gerdt (51:15):
I'm familiar.
Anytime you hear me smile orsee me smile, it's because my
brain has said you need to smilenow.

So it's, really true.

Sam Gerdt (51:24):
It's really true, especially like in these
interviews, that I do.
So much is put on likeconscious put on, and there are
times where I'm so focused onputting it on where I have to
step back and say in my brain Ihave to say, okay, I need to
catch back up because I'm nothearing.
I'm not hearing what they'resaying and I'm gonna be lost

(51:45):
here in a second.

My current boss.
When I first started workingwith him and a few times in the
first month or phase he wouldsay I think he did a few times
say you okay, like just checkingin, and I'd go.
I'd go, yeah, why?
And I'd often joke and gomental note, smile more because
my focus space is in a meetingis serious, and I'd just be
thinking and then I'd be talkingand there'd be maybe hopefully

(52:10):
warmth coming out verbally butsort of completely serious.
And my whole life people havetold me when I smile my face
lights up.
I just thought that was likesome sort of attractiveness
compliment but in hindsight it'sbecause I was always so serious
looking and grumpy.

Sam Gerdt (52:28):
It's like you're turning on your outside
appearance after it's been off.
Everything's diverted inside,yeah, so essentially, what we've
said over the last 20 minutesis the technology and advances
in technology, and especiallysome of the really cool stuff
that's coming out.
It serves either to help us orit serves to make things worse,

(52:53):
and it's kind of a mixed bag.
We've really experienced amixed bag, and I guess it
depends on who you talk about.
Lorian, you're big into tech.
Megan, you're less big intotech.
I'm kind of in the middle, Iwould say, of the two of you.
I'm probably somewhere in themiddle, and I see really as a
mixed bag.

(53:14):
I mentioned the red dot.
That was a huge step backwards,not just for neurodivergent
people, but for everybody.
We went in the wrong directionwith that technology, but there
are other things that I see thatI think this is really good.
You guys mentioned you bothmentioned blocking time.
So that you can focus.
Blocking time is incrediblybeneficial for me.

(53:34):
What I'm not able to do, though, is actually take my list of
tasks and prioritize them andactually make the time blocked
calendar.
I've tried and I've tried, andwhen I do it and I have it, it
works, but it falls apart soquickly and then I have to spend

(53:54):
so much time trying to get itback.
That that's the limitation.
But now there are AItechnologies and I'll go ahead
and put a plug in here forreclaimai.
It's the one that I use.
It works with Todoist, whichI'll put in another plug here.
That's my task management appthat I use, and I'll tell you

(54:15):
exactly why this duo, this comboof technologies, is life
changing.
In my case.
We talked about all of thedropdowns and all of the buttons
and all of the things that yougotta click to ingest a task
into most of these projectmanagement systems.
With Todoist, I can just typeit in natural language Do this

(54:38):
thing on Monday and then hashtagproject and then the little at
symbol that puts a tag on it.
Remind me to do this everythree weeks.
And it doesn't matter how Itype it in, it's gonna go into
the system exactly how I need it.
And it's one text box, myentire, the entire thing.
One text box.
And then, if I tag it withreclaim, that reclaim app will

(55:05):
pick up on how much time I saidit would take and it'll plug it
into a time blocked calendar forme.
And if somebody schedules ameeting, or if I just don't get
it done, it will pick up on thatthat it wasn't checked off and
it'll reschedule it.
Or if a meeting comes in andinterrupts tomorrow's plan,
tomorrow's plan will change andI don't have to do it.

(55:26):
It saves me hours a day andprobably 90% of my brain
capacity in some instances tohave this high tech tool come in
and do that for me.
So it's like I said, it's amixed bag.
So my question, I think thenext thing I wanna ask is with

(55:50):
technology being a mixed bag,what's the pitfall here?
What do we need to be aware ofin order to make this work
better?
And I think I'm thinking moreabout, maybe, our bosses, our
employers.
What do they need to be awareof in order to make this work?
I already mentioned we need torecognize that not all
technology is gonna be goodtechnology, and just adding a

(56:11):
technology doesn't solve aproblem.

I'm gonna talk first cause I'll be quick, cause
I know you've got so much tosay here.
No, I imagine if the wholesetup you have, sam, and how
amazing that is and what animpact in a positive way that
makes on how you work in yourday.
Imagine if you changed jobs andthen you were given a laptop
and in a new tenant where thatsoftware or whatever you use,

(56:36):
they said no, that's notavailable, and you had to lose
it.
I think that's where there's achallenge.
Our bosses, or one person, onehead of IT potentially it makes
the call on what is allowed inthe platform at work and they
may block out apps that arefantastic Things, whether it's
Canva or Trello like there's,whether it's mind mapping or

(56:59):
task management the way youhandle your task management can
be heavily impacted by it beingtaken away, and so we both work
with Microsoft tools.
We've both been Microsoftconsultants for a long time, so
we work in that, I guess, suiteof tools and we're aware that
there are the odd peopleoccasionally who say, oh no,

(57:20):
because I need this and it'ssomething shadow IT outside the
platform.
So you have to be careful.
Our bosses, basically theleaders in the business, can
make decisions that impactpeople, and sometimes we're
given a suite of tools that wecan mesh together, a way of
working from them, but we haveto consider if there's some
amazing thing that we should payfor that can make it better.

And that's a really very important point,
because in my workplace, thatperson who says no is me.
Now the thing is, though, mycolleagues who know me well
enough know that a no from meisn't a no, you can't have it.
And the same thing I say withour children just because I
haven't said yes doesn't mean no, it just means I need more

(58:04):
information.
So if you say that, as Megansaid, we work with Microsoft
technology and my immediateresponse will be okay, you want
this.
Is there a reason why you can'tuse the tools that we have to
achieve the same thing?
And I know that there will bereasons.
So if you can articulate that,then great.
Okay, then let's have a look atthat external system and

(58:27):
understand it from a compliance,security, privacy perspective
before we go and use it, becauseshadow IT doesn't have to be
shadow IT, and the biggest issuewith shadow IT is that whole
compliance, is that wholeprivacy, data retention,
ownership, residency, wholebunch of things.
So if you say that drawio isbetter than Microsoft whiteboard

(58:53):
and here's why you need to useit, great, then let's connect it
to our identity platform andensure that you're using your
work account and that no clientdata is sitting in another
country where maybe it's notallowed.
So it's not, and I think that'sthe thing is that a lot of times
it's too easy to just say no,whereas it should be a more
considered approach and maybe itstill might be no at the end of

(59:13):
it.
But I'm sitting here, whenyou're talking about Todoist and
I know we spoke about thisbefore the other day where
Todoist doesn't work withMicrosoft 365, and I'm sitting
here going, well, I have thekeys to the kingdom, so what can
I do to make my stuff go acrossto Todoist from Todo and to
Google Calendar from Outlookthat I, so I can use Reclaim,

(59:38):
which is abusing my power, whichI wouldn't do, but that's my
brain is immediately thinkingthat, because one particular
tool I use that actually Megandoes as well for product
management is a tool called AHA,and a lot of what AHA has is
actually in the Microsoft 365suite, but it's all over the
place and it's not connected.

(59:58):
And I sat down and said to myboss a few years ago I can't be
a product manager in the toolsthat I've got because it's all
over the place and it doesn'tconnect in.
I need this tool and it costsover $100 a month, which is more
than what my actual Microsoft365 day-to-day product costs,

(01:00:20):
but I need this to do thiseffectively, and it was a game
changer.
So I think that's the thing.
That's important is to evaluateand go hang on.
Is this a legitimate thing?
Great, then, let's look at it,let's see how we make it work.

Megan Strant (01:00:32):
I've always been a big fan of the agile,
retrospective kind of techniqueand even if I'm not an agile
team, I've, as a manager and asan employee, I've often said can
we do a retro and can we sitdown and talk about what's not
working and what is working andwhat can we change?
I love asking people.
I spend a lot of my job askingpeople how they're going, what
are their challenges with thetools we have, and adoptions are

(01:00:55):
key part and I love hearing thepeople who are hidden in dark
corners of the business, whojust are surviving and operating
, because they'll have somethingthat they're doing that we
haven't thought of and it mightbe a workaround and it might be.
They've gone to YouTube andthey've learned something from
like a YouTuber on Excel orsomething.
So this is the thing I thinkkeeping talking and getting

(01:01:17):
people to surface ideas, becausethen we find everyone's lacking
this thing.
Let's just go get that productand make it happen.
Some of the greatest impact oftechnology in the last few years
for each individual, I sense isto do with task management and
helping people all bringeverything together.
There seems to be a theme of wewanna simplify it, we wanna
strip it back because there'sbeen an explosion of apps and

(01:01:40):
software and things are comingat us and this can do this, but
what about this?
So we almost need to strip itback to what are our needs?
What do we actually, what do weneed support on?
And there's all that.
And it's funny how we're nottalking about Power BI,
dashboards or deep analysis ordata science.
We're not talking about thecomplex because obviously I mean
, I'm seeing firsthand at workhow we're creating and building

(01:02:03):
a data lake and doing amazingthings with AI, but the thing
that people talk about, thatwe're talking about, is my day
and what I need to do, and sothat's a really interesting
point to get to, I think, isthat we're showing that the
basics people are strugglingwith basic life things and work
things, rather than all thecomplex.

Sam Gerdt (01:02:21):
We're looking at this in my own workplace right now.
We're recognizing that ourproject management is starting
to get too complicated and it'snot working well for everyone,
and so we have been goingthrough this process of taking a
step back and saying, okay,well, let's look at the tools
that we're using, what's goodabout them, what's not, and

(01:02:41):
let's work a better solution.
And, without saying too much,the solution that we're working
and I'm pretty heavily involvedin this is a solution that cuts
down the number of differenttools fairly significantly and
tries to pull as much togetherinto a single place as possible,

(01:03:02):
for a couple of reasons, andwe've touched on some of this
already.
Number one so that, in orderfor someone to do their work,
they don't have to have three orfour things open.
They can have one thing open.
Number two you don't have tomanage the settings or the
notifications or the littleintricacies of three or four

(01:03:22):
different systems.
We're simplifying the knowledgethat you need to have of the
tools so that, like Lorian said,we're not taking up unnecessary
space in your brain that couldbe used for the work itself.
Another aspect of it is we wantto give people the freedom to
work the way that works best forthem.

(01:03:43):
Most people don't need a superdetailed roadmap for
accomplishing tasks that are intheir job description.
They know how to do it, it's intheir job description, it's
what they do, and we need tolearn how to trust people to do
their jobs.
So we are taking some thingsthat used to be more detailed.

(01:04:04):
Maybe it took up three or fourdifferent tasks in the project
management system and we'resaying that only needs.
We only need one action itemthere.
They know how to do it and incases where maybe multiple
people are doing the same kindof task, we're making allowances
for different people to do thework differently.
As long as the outcome is thesame, we're pleased, we're happy

(01:04:26):
.
So there's all these littlethings that we're recognizing
and I think we kind of.
There was that explosion ofapps that we all saw and there
was this, like I said, averagemid-sized business 60, 70 apps.
Probably we're getting to thepoint where they don't need that
many, they just have them anddifferent people use them for

(01:04:47):
different reasons and they justkeep getting at it and it
creates this tangled nightmare.
There is this need to step backand simplify and say, okay,
well, how can we make ourbusiness, our work processes
more people oriented, less tooloriented.
I think that's so importantright now, especially since

(01:05:11):
we're gonna get another wave ofartificial intelligence based
startups and apps and tools thatare gonna be really buzzy and
people are gonna wannaincorporate them, and it's gonna
create this next wave of thatkind of fear missing out if I'm
not using all of these tools.

Yeah, with some people, though, because,
remember, there's so many peoplethat are stuck with being left
behind already on moderntechnology.
Because what is that really?
Because I mean 10 year oldmodern technology.
You don't understand how tocollaborate in the cloud and
work effectively, as in there'sa lot of people that really need

(01:05:50):
support.
And then imagine if you'refeeling uncertain or a bit of
anxiety generally day to daybecause you haven't quite
grasped at all, and then there'sa wave of AI and people are
thinking, well, hang on, they'regonna be in fight or flight or
in a different mode and think,well, what do I know about AI
risk, and they're gonna bereally negative and worried
about it.

(01:06:10):
So I do think we're in aninteresting time when there's a
percentage of the business whoare so savvy they were the ones
that did Power BI withouttraining there are people who
are doing workflows becausethey're working it out and
learning from YouTube, and sothere are people sprinting ahead
and they've already embracedchat, gpt and AI, but there's a

(01:06:32):
large number of the workforcethat are not coping already, and
so that balance is hard and weneed to really work out how we
bring people forward and makethe most of both.

Loryan Strant (01:06:41):
And I think also in the process of looking at the
new shiny, we're going to beneglecting our due diligence and
our responsibility for thethings that we should be doing
now anyway that also help thenew shiny, because the whole
thing with these AI toolslooking at our data and helping
us with our day-to-day work thething I've been saying to people

(01:07:04):
is junk in, junk out.
If you complain about theability to find content in your
organization now, well, how doyou think AI is gonna do it any
better?
Because it's not you.
It can't actually understandthat this document versus that
document is the reason why it'sgonna look at things like the
modified date or certain codeblocks, and sure there'll be
some bits that it will do well.

(01:07:24):
But if I do a search for aparticular term in our
organization and I find fiveidentically named documents that
have been modified by differentpeople, that are in different
locations or the same location,then how will AI help with this?
Now, sure, it probably will toan extent, but it's that same
thing that we haven't.
Where we live like hoarders, wedon't delete things.

(01:07:48):
How will the AI know if we, asthe human being, haven't curated
our own content?
How will it build on that, andI think that's gonna be
neglected.
I think that's gonna be addingin the new frustration wave of
hey, I've got this but itdoesn't do what I want, because
this like well, fix that.

So if we don't spring clean our files and we
don't spring clean our behaviorand ways of working, then, is AI
useless or is it justpotentially going to be not as
effective and there isn't thepower because it's going to
surface junk?

Well, the thing is you have to look at the
existing behavior with thingslike search, whether it's on
Google or Bing, or internally,where people will basically not
look at the second page, andthat whole thing.
If you need to be on the firstpage, or what gets you on the
first page relevancy.
So, been in the workplace, whatgets the file on the first page
relevancy?
But we've got five of them onthe first page, so which one and

(01:08:46):
I think that that's the bigthing is that that needs to be
cleaned up.
People need to be aware thatthey can't just keep going and
creating and creating andcreating.
That you need to clean up.
I use the analogy that I'veseen of the example from
conferences where storagevendors say, oh, last year the
world created this many exabytesof data and the next year we're

(01:09:09):
going to create this.
But should we be?

To show that growth, but maybe delete some of
the old stuff.

Maybe it doesn't need to have several copies of
it, because how do you knowwhat's the right one?
Unless, I think we've talkedabout task management and people
working together, I think we'vealmost neglected knowledge
management, and it's going to bemore crucial than ever for
neurodivergent, for neurotypical, for people working with AI,

(01:09:37):
not working with AI, becausethere's too much stuff out there
to make informed decisions on.

Sam Gerdt (01:09:44):
Yeah, it's such a good point.
Most neurodivergent peopledepending on what it is that you
have, most of them, I thinkit's fair to say deal with
knowledge management.
That's their struggle issurfacing the right knowledge at
the right time and being ableto apply it correctly.

In your brain, yeah, in your brain.

Sam Gerdt (01:10:10):
And so we tend to be more keenly aware of the
problems that exist inorganizations, with their
processes, with their storage,with their practices, whatever
it is we tend to be far moreaware of.
This could be simplified, thiscould be done so much easier.
It's too much distraction forme to have this many
notifications, this many files,this many emails, whatever it is

(01:10:33):
, and we're relating it all tothis over here.
But then you look at what'scoming with artificial
intelligence and Loryn.
I think you're dead on If wesay, well, chadgbt was trained
on this many trillion tokens,but how much of that was good?
It was trained on all of thesebooks, but how many of them were
good and how many of themweren't good?

And how is that going to?

Sam Gerdt (01:10:55):
affect your output, and that's just as an example.
I talked previously withsomeone who was excited about
the idea of having a companyoracle, taking all of your
company data and dumping it intoan artificial intelligence, an
LLM, so that you could theninteract with it just by
chatting basically chatting withyour data and it's a beautiful

(01:11:15):
idea and I think his company isactually well organized in other
ways that might make it work,but for the majority of
organizations that's gonna be adisaster.

You're gonna get all kinds of, especially when
you have conflicting andcontradicting information
Exactly and one of the thingsthat I'm doing in an artificial
capacity in my job is workingwith a few colleagues who have
recognized that we have pocketsof knowledge and information in
all different places, becausethat's how people have worked.
And we're trying to say, hey,so we've actually set up a

(01:11:50):
collection of sites called theFountain, because it's the
Fountain of Knowledge, and we'vegot some other sites under
there that we are curating veryheavily, to say, hey, that's
fantastic, could you put thefile there and, sure, post about
it in that location, but putthe file there so it's with all
the others, so that as you startlooking at the things, and

(01:12:11):
there are knowledge managementtools out there that help with
this stuff that we're startingto look at, because we're
recognizing that when the in theMicrosoft world it's called
Copilot, but when that comes tous, it will help, but it will
also give us the wrong answers.

There's an amazing opportunity in industry and
there are things that I can'tsay that we're doing.
But if you look at certainindustries whether it's
construction, it, education,let's say legal, for an example,
because I don't work with thatIf you were to ring fence a
tenant for a legal organizationand use AI to run queries and

(01:12:51):
ask questions, whether it belooking at patents so if a legal
organization has worked anddone across different industries
, what is the average?
What has been the pattern over10 years of disputes?
In the arts, there are thingsthat you can utilize your tenant
as a data lake and use AI touncover and forecast an amazing

(01:13:12):
potential there.
But, yes, the question is howmuch junk is in there that is
gonna make those queries surface.
Really valuable forecasting, orwhat do we have to do?

And I'd almost say something controversial here
, because one of the things I'vesuggested in my organization
and I'm by no means anorganizational psychologist and
as we've already, identifiedthrough here that sometimes I
don't even have I'm not eventactful, but is identifying the

(01:13:44):
people in the organization whohave different, I guess, ways of
thinking whether it's due toneurodivergence or not and
identifying them and harnessingfor the good instead of trying
to box them in.
And where I'm getting to withthis is, I think, almost with
this co-pilot or AI, whateverit's gonna be called in
different organizations shouldalmost take all the

(01:14:06):
neurodivergent folks and go helpus clean out crap, because you
will be the ones who willprobably work through it faster
because go ADHD power.
But you'll need the otherpeople with different
neurodivergence who will not letyou finish it 80% because
you've got distracted, and willassure that the job is done and

(01:14:28):
ensure that it's doneconsistently and in a set
structure, in a set way, becausewe almost need, I think and I
can't speak for everyorganization, but I know many
are gonna need practically anoverhaul of their knowledge and
information before they canactually take advantage of these
new tools, because otherwisethey'll just fall on their face.

Well, if you think about, yeah, the number of
organizations out there whoprobably ever did implement
structured, proper knowledgemanagement, many people don't
know what knowledge managementis.
I certainly, at a point in mycareer, had to learn because we
had a knowledge manager yearsago in a company and I went what
do you do?
Compared to a processed personand other people, so it's not a

(01:15:08):
heavily used skill or framework,I think, and so that's where a
lot of problem is.
But circling back to maybesomething I said at the Stardest
call, like taking the people.
you say taking people who areneurodiverse but taking people
who are struggling and askingthem where the problems lie is
really important because ifpeople can be vocal about where

(01:15:30):
they're struggling, chances arethere's 10 or 20 more behind
them who are lined up with thesame struggle and, whether it be
finding information or gettingstuff done or tracking tasks or
knowing what's going on on theproject, we need to listen more
to the people that arestruggling rather than just
thinking.
We need to put good leaders outin front to take people along.

Absolutely.
And that will surface, I think,improvements in how our
organization works, and I thinkit needs to be a mixture of
macro and micro at the same time, because, if you think back,
you know years ago, digitaltransformation was the big
buzzword and organizations werespinning up digital
transformation teams andorganizational innovation teams
and that probably died offbecause what was the value?

(01:16:10):
And it also took a long time.
A lot of times, the innovationsand the improvements can be
something very small.
Talking with our projectmanagers recently, they're
talking about and one of themactually said Loryn, help me,
I'm overwhelmed with the amountof minutes I need to keep for
meetings and tasks and prep andthese things.
I went okay and I dwelled it onWell, hang on, with this new

(01:16:34):
feature that you're not licensedfor but you can be, and with
this template change here, I canmake it that your meetings are
automatically recorded and thatyou also have an intelligent
meeting recap feature, whichwill basically be your notes and
action items, and so thatlittle thing is a transformation
, but it's not a big overbakedthing.

So, to your point, it's sitting with people who
struggle and working with them.
Opportunity, I guess, for maybealmost micro changes.
It's micro changes that willtransform.

I think micro changes are big.
It is a good term.

Is it?
15% of the population has somesort of disability.
There is a percentage withinevery organization of people who
have a disability or areneurodiverse.
And if a company has 20 peopleor 100 people, 1,000, then
that's the percentage of yournumber of staff.
So there are going to be manypeople that are undiagnosed.

(01:17:32):
There are going to be peoplewho are not going to disclose
because they're not comfortable.
There are going to be peoplewho are disclosed.
So there are going to be anelement of people in the
workforce of a company that havevarying needs because they're
human, but then also compoundedbecause they're neurodiverse.
So we really need to start tothink about how is our workplace

(01:17:53):
, what's the term?
Is our workplace?
Is the way we work, settingpeople up for success, or is it
actually creating barriers forpeople?
And is it a barrier becausethey're neurodiverse or a
barrier because they can't findinformation?
And I think there's some reallyimportant things that need to
be addressed Because people arestruggling day to day, whether

(01:18:14):
they have a disability orwhether they just can't get
access to the right informationor can't get the right help in
their role or things donebecause there's a red dot and I
laughed myself before becausethere's a red dot that came up
on this monitor we're looking at, which has distracted me, but
yeah, I think the way we workcreates barriers and obstacles
daily and we're not talkingabout it and we're not really

(01:18:34):
thinking about it that way.
We're just thinking about whatwe need to get done and how do
we make money and how are weefficient.

Sam Gerdt (01:18:41):
I think the attitude can be and I'm not going to say
that it is, I'm going to saythat it can be that businesses
are so focused on forward motion, forward progress that they see
oh, here's a new application,let's plug it in and have more
forward progress.
This person's not beingproductive, let's replace them.
Forward progress.

(01:19:01):
This technology is good.
Everybody says it's good.
Forward progress.
And what happens is we get intothis place where you wake up
and you realize, ok, there'salarm bells going off and I
don't exactly know why.
And the reason why is becauseyou've gotten so distracted with
this singular mission offorward progress that you've

(01:19:26):
actually hamstrung yourself withbad data, disorganization, too
many apps, too many securityissues, not the right people in
the right seats.
There's all kinds of problemsthat organizations have today
and we can point at them, andthe sad thing is there are all

(01:19:47):
of these startups springing upsaying I have a solution for
that, I have a solution for that, I have a solution for that,
and it's wrong.
They don't have a solution forit.
What they have is an additionalthing that you're going to
throw into this organization andit's going to be like a grenade
that's just going to cause morechaos and I feel like the
thrust of this conversationwhich, by the way, has gone very

(01:20:09):
differently than I thought itwould, and I'm very thankful for
it the thrust of thisconversation has been forward
progress today, with theimpending doom of AI, whatever
it is, with everything that'sgoing on in the tech world right
now.
Forward progress for anorganization today looks like
stopping talking to your people,getting to know what the

(01:20:34):
struggles are, what the problemsare, taking a step back,
getting your data organized,getting your processes organized
, maybe minimizing the number ofapplications that you use to
get your work done, removingdistraction from the workplace
kind of going back to the olddays when you didn't even have
the screens.
Everything was just concentratedwork.
Maybe you were sitting at adesk and, like you said earlier,

(01:20:56):
megan, the thought of going tosomeone and asking them a
question you actually had tothink is this worth getting up
out of my seat?
Is this worth shouting across aroom Like putting yourself back
into those situations mentally,because that's when you're
going to surface the real issuesthat are threatening your
organization.
It's funny that you have tomake a conversation about

(01:21:21):
neurodiversity.
Is what surfaces all of theseissues?
Because you put three people inthe room, who have attention
challenges, who have challengeswith how they think, and all
we're going to do the three ofus sitting around a table, all
we're going to do is talk aboutall of the things that keep us
from doing our very best work.

(01:21:42):
And all of the things that keepothers from doing their very
best work.

We're not talking about deep work, we're not
talking.
It's almost like the time blockof the work doing the work.
We're not talking about that asa problem.
It's the everything around itthat gets in the way of us
getting to.
That is what we're talkingabout and that in itself is
really interesting that thereare too many barriers and
obstacles to us doing reallygood work, that we have to spend

(01:22:06):
time getting passed to do thething.

And I think that point about the forward motion
sharks have to keep movingunless they die.
Well, they also need to eat.
So if they keep moving in anarea where there's no food,
they're still going to die, andso I think that's the thing is
we need to stop, and that wasprobably an analogy that some
marine biologists are going topull me up on.
But I think we need to look alittle bit, a step ahead and

(01:22:34):
look sideways and also lookbehind, like Megan was saying,
with retrospectives, and yeah,not just go, no, I've got to
keep moving, kind of keep moving, and so really quickly.
There's a visual that I use inmy possessions that a lot of
times when I present, I try tobreak people's brains at the
start and then show them the hey, here's what you can do.

(01:22:55):
And I've got this visual ofit's a person on a bike with
square wheels and the personbehind them has a round wheel
trying to sell them a roundwheel, and the person on the
bike is going sorry, I'm toobusy, and that's the whole point
.
Is that whole forward motion.
We've got to keep going,otherwise we'll not be able to
charge our people or leave us orthis won't happen.
So yeah, but that's nothappening.

As a result, can I just say and this is not
necessarily on topic, but youreminded me of something just
before not that long ago, therewas a day where Taylor Swift
tickets went on sale in thiscountry and, like in a lot of
places, it was a 9 am I wentinto.
I was actually working from home.
I went into work the next dayand our IT guy said you would

(01:23:37):
not believe the number of peopleyou could see in the open plan.
Yesterday TicketTech ourticketing company, taylor Swift,
was on their monitors becauseeveryone decided it was
completely fine to stop work atthat point in time because they
wanted Taylor Swift tickets.
And it was really interestingbecause we both, we were sort of
going, everyone was sodistracted by it, so many people

(01:23:58):
in the office, and so he justsaid, oh, we should have the day
before disabled the ability touse that URL.
But anyway, what was funny wasyeah, that's the big in that
moment, a huge percentage of ourcompany and the world or
Australia was distracted by thesame thing.
But it sort of went yeah,there's so many things they're

(01:24:19):
probably all distracted by allthe time that we just don't know
about because it's alwaysdifferent.
It's they're looking at theirphone, they're listening to a
podcast, go bar.
So it was just an interestingscenario to say a huge number of
people at work be distracted byone thing at one time and all
be doing it and not be working.
And it was significant.
You got to wait a while toprocess, to get through that
process.
But yeah, it's just to havethem all distracted by the same

(01:24:43):
thing at once.
But we're all distracted allthe time.
It's just the way of the world.

Sam Gerdt (01:24:48):
And the same boss who says maybe we should have
disabled that URL is promotingpolicies and I'm not gonna say
that in this specific instancebecause I don't know that
situation, but in many instances, the same kind of person who
says we should have disabledthat URL is the person who's
also saying you need to keepnotifications on, because if we

(01:25:08):
need you, we need you, andthere's not this understanding
of what that does to a workplace.
Well, I'm gonna end it here,but I wanted to ask each of you
very quickly, as neurodiversepeople what do you want to see
happening in workplaces acrossthe world in response to what

(01:25:34):
we're seeing with incomingtechnologies and now there's
activism and there's promotionof these ideas of supporting
neurodivergent people.
What are you hopeful to seechanging in the coming years in
the workplace?

So previously, and whether that be a month ago,
probably what would have been onmy mind up until recently would
have been awareness training,teach people about
neurodiversity and teach peopleabout executive functioning.
But I think I worry now becauseI've been asked do you want to

(01:26:13):
get involved in our workplacedue training on neurodiversity?
And I've seen the companiesthat some of them that come in
and do it and it actually myblood boils when I hear them,
because they do it in anoutdated way that makes everyone
think people withneurodiversity can't do their
job properly, and because theyfocus too much on deficits and
how we need to supportneurodiverse people's deficits,

(01:26:35):
and so I'm less inclined tothink that that's the right way
to go.
I know that society leads theway and when we have better role
models and shows on TV showingneurodiverse people being
amazing in a normal way, likenot being like a gifted savant,
so that's really important.
When it comes to the workplace,I think we just need to have
more conversations and dialoguearound human needs and surfacing

(01:27:00):
how people are going and howwe're using technology and to do
a bit of a stop-start, continuechange or a retrospective.
We need to take stock and lookat how things are going and talk
to people with neurodiversity,but make it okay for any person
to surface challenges.
So we surface real challenges,neurodiverse or not, and we have
a dialogue about it so we canall work better and say, hey,

(01:27:23):
I'm not okay, can we communicatedifferently?
Can we track our tasksdifferently?
So I think just a dialogue isreally important, as opposed to
pointing to one group of peopleand saying, oh, they need you to
, they can't communicate as wellas you, so let's do this.
Well, let's all lift thebenchmark across the way we do
things.

I think I absolutely agree with that and I
think that the things that Iwould probably say would also be
not necessarily neurodiversespecific, but I think we are so
busy and so distracted and alsowe've moved so far with
technology that to your pointbefore about when you started a

(01:28:04):
job and how much simpler it was.
And we comment all the timeabout how when you looked for a
job ad it said, must haveexperience with Microsoft Office
because it was so much simplerback then.
We don't have that now.
It's just expected that thatHago user, hago learner, with
the pandemic, a lot oftechnology was thrust down.
People throw Microsoft or otherand not necessarily supported.

(01:28:27):
And I think organizations willsay oh people, we welcome a
culture of people speaking up.
They're not going to, they'reafraid because they're also
ashamed.
They feel that I should knowthis but I don't.
So I'm not gonna speak up and,to be quite blunt, this whole
thing of oh, we wanna create asafe space, it's bullshit.
It's never going to be a safespace because it's work and it

(01:28:52):
affects your livelihood.
So I do think thatorganizations need to engage
with people and actually pause,not stop the entire company, the
entire organization, but it'sactually some way, whether it's
external people who actuallyusing current methods, but it's

(01:29:14):
not just about theneurodivergent people.
All the people sit with themsomehow at scale and go how can
you work better, how can you besupported and just to at least
identify things?
I don't know.
I'm saying that I think that'sprobably a people in culture
person will be watching thisgame.
Really simple statement there,lauren, but how do we actually

(01:29:36):
make it work?

Just change it, make it better Just fix it, just
fix it.

But I think that needs to happen.
I think we cannot expect peopleto come forward with their
challenges neurodiverse or otherbut we need to get to them,
every single person, and helpthem.

It is possible to reflect and look back at the
same time you're moving forwardand do some baby step change
while you're moving.
I used to work in a team wherewe did a retro for 15 minutes
every Friday and we circledthree things to take into the
next week.
Now that's not always possibleand we're not waiting for a
major transformation wherethere's a better world and a

(01:30:14):
better workplace in the future,but we need to actually talk and
think and have an undercurrentof change.
That can happen slowly.
Is it possible?
I don't know and it's gonnatake a long time, but people
need to think through.
I was feeling very passionatelast week about the word
discrimination and how peopleare discriminated against every
single day by the quote, likeall these micro things that we

(01:30:37):
don't think about and ourunconscious bias.
So it's not.
We can do a lot of sexualharassment training.
We can do a session on autism,but it's out in the workplace
that we need to have differentconversations, not just training
.

Sam Gerdt (01:30:51):
I tend to agree.
I think, for my part, I'll goahead and answer my own question
as someone who has a little bitmore control in their own
workspace.
Tech, business tech is rightwhere I'm at.
It's really important forpeople who have roles like mine,
rather than being tech-centric,focused on features and new

(01:31:15):
products coming in and all ofthat, to really stay grounded in
the mission and purpose of thebusiness.
The end product where do weneed to arrive?
And then, looking at the peoplethat you have to accomplish
those tasks, first, and sayingwho are the right people for the

(01:31:39):
job, how are they working, whatdo they need, and, like you
were saying, have thoseconversations so that if you
have an employee who comes inand says, hey, listen, I have
ADHD or I have this anxietydisorder, I have ASD, whatever
it is, dyslexia, there's allkinds of specific things we
could talk about.
But and this is gonna be achallenge you can be in a

(01:32:03):
position and this is totallydoable be in a position as an
employer or as a team leader, tosay that's okay, because our
processes are built to work forall kinds of people.
Our processes are built so that, as long as you can look at
your job description and say Ican do that, you're good, you're

(01:32:24):
good, we can accommodate that.
But that's going to requirebusinesses, instead of getting
excited about new tools, newproducts, new technologies, it's
gonna require them to take manysteps back in most cases and
say how do we simplify?
And go back to focusing on whatwe do, why we do it, how we do
it, and just answering thosethree questions.

There's a show I saw on TV recently I think it
was called the Summit, and itwas about a group of 10 or 12
people that have to make it tothe top of a mountain and the
premise was that they had tobring each other in the journey
and if someone was slow, theybasically had to go at the pace
of the slowest person.
They had to make sure everyonefinished that day of walking or
whatever.
And that's say 10 or 12 people,and I feel like there are

(01:33:08):
approaches that we need to bringinto our workplace, which is
bringing everyone on the journeybetter, so we can get the most
out of everyone for our businessand reach our goals together,
rather than those who trample onpeople or stand out, move
forward and sprint towards thenext shiny thing and the rest
are left trying to work throughthe junk.

And I think it needs to be done more often.
Instead of it, new CEO comes inand wants to shake things up
and then you do a review ofthings.
It needs to be more frequent,because I think if it's done
more frequently then the amountof change is smaller, because
it's tweaks, it's adjustments,and there's that line from the
100th of October which is thecrazy Ivan, which is that

(01:33:50):
submarine captains will kind ofpause and turn the submarine to
look behind them because theycan't hear behind the noise of
their forward motion.
And I think that that's whatorganizations need to do and do
it often, because then you cango okay, this thing we
implemented not working as wellas effectively.
So instead of waiting forsomeone to come in from a big

(01:34:11):
consultancy to say, right, thisdidn't work, we're changing it
all to.
Actually, this didn't work aswe expected, but if we change
this then maybe it will.
Let's do that for the nextthree months, six months?

What is the whole premise of this podcast?
What's the name of it?
Roadwork Ahead.

Sam Gerdt (01:34:25):
Roadwork Ahead, yeah, when I think of roadwork.

What do we do when we come to roadwork?
We slow down.
We have really clear signageand instruction.
And safety is we nailed it?

Sam Gerdt (01:34:35):
There's something in that you nailed it.
Yeah, what do we do when we seethat sign?
Slow down.
And your attention just goes uphyper alert.
And that's what we're doing.
We're taking time to slow downand say, well, let's talk
through this with attention onall the things, not just right
in front of you, but all aroundyou, looking for workers,

(01:34:57):
looking for signs, looking fornew things that weren't there
yesterday.
That's the whole point I wannaclarify really quick on my
comments.
These actions don't necessarilymean that everyone gets to keep
their role.
These actions don't necessarilymean that in a company who's
being attentive the way theyought to be attentive, that

(01:35:19):
everyone gets to stay where theywere at.
In some cases it was a mistaketo hire a person.
In some cases it was a mistaketo put a person in that
particular seat, and so theattention that I'm talking about
isn't what I'm not advocatingfor tokenism or handouts in any

(01:35:39):
way.
What I'm saying is there areincredibly talented and gifted
people who would be phenomenalfor your organization who, if
you would give them the freedomto work the way that they work,
they will do what it's expectedof them and they will do it
better than anyone else.
But that requires you to takesteps backwards and do what we

(01:36:01):
talked about before.

I have that in my workplace and be quite open,
that I am allowed to, to a point, do whatever I want.
Now I still haveresponsibilities and things that
I need to achieve and,ultimately, they also know that
I'm not sitting there playinggames all day.
They know that I'm constantlylooking to the betterment of the
company.
Now, that's a very luxuriousposition I do not take for

(01:36:24):
granted, and but my leadershipteam know that money and
benefits fall out of me by doingthat.
So I think there's a way thatmore people could somehow
leverage that and benefit fromthat.
It's a very dangerous placebecause they also know if I ran
a business, I'm gonna beresponsible in the process.

(01:36:44):
I know also that I'm thinkingbeyond, but I think to your
point is, yeah, is giving peoplethe opportunity to, I guess, a
job craft a little bit more, notrequire that they fit in this
box whether they'reneurodivergent or not, and to
have them have a little bit morefreedom to work differently, to

(01:37:06):
create differently, because itmay create, it may yield results
that you weren't expecting, butbenefit from.

Or say goodbye to people who are.
I think I'm a very, a prettypositive person and we talked
earlier in this aboutself-awareness.
There are people who are notself-aware and they're resistant
and negative and sometimesbitter and sometimes barriers in
that workplace because theydon't wanna change or they're
not willing to shift the waythings are working or just don't

(01:37:34):
bring a lot into the team.
So you're right, sometimes itmeans a shift in different ways
to make things work better.

Sam Gerdt (01:37:40):
Megan and Lorian, I appreciate your time.
I really enjoy talking aboutthis.
It's turned into a lot more ofpersonal experiences and
conversations about our ownopinions, which is refreshing.
It's nice to not just bespeculating all the time or
talking about something that'snew and off the wall.

(01:38:00):
This idea of retrospection isincredibly important right now.
I think where we're at, and Ifeel like this whole
conversation was veryretrospective in all of the
right ways, so I do wannaappreciate your time and your
insights Before we go justreally quickly.
Is there anything specific thatyou wanna promote?

Just if anyone's listening and they if they think
I don't really know much aboutneurodiversity.
That neurodiversity is a topicis to question the perceptions
in your head and maybe readdressthem and educate yourself.
That sounds harsh.

I think the promotion I would wanna do is
not of myself or ourselves, butof people in their organization
is promoting awareness of as innot running a campaign, look for
people who are not fitting abox, who are working differently
, and find them.
That's those are the people Iwould wanna promote attention to

(01:38:56):
, because they can be so muchbetter than what they're
potentially doing right now.

Sam Gerdt (01:39:01):
Thank you guys.
We'll end it there.
I really, again, I reallyappreciate taking the time to
talk.
I really appreciate thisretrospective approach and
perhaps in the coming months wecan reconnect and just see how
we feel about what we've saidand how we feel things are going
.
I always like to see what comesof these conversations.

Thank you for the discussion.
It was really interesting and,yeah, enjoy your weekend, yeah
yeah, thank you.
I'll see you guys next time.

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#7 - Loryan & Megan Strant: Neurodiversity (ADHD, Autism), Distraction & Organization, Being Retrospective

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#7 - Loryan & Megan Strant: Neurodiversity (ADHD, Autism), Distraction & Organization, Being Retrospective