October 8, 2024 • 54 mins
Today we're learning from the dynamic Margaret Krohn, who shares her fascinating journey from being an avid gamer to holding pivotal roles such as Director of Communications at Intrepid Games and the CMO for Roll4It. We discuss her evolution into a content creator, lifestyle adjustments, and the paths she wishes she had discovered earlier in her career.
Ever wondered what goes into creating a successful broadcast studio or an RPG show? Hear it from the expert herself, as Margaret peels back the curtain on what it takes to organize large groups, pinpoint the right cast, and create quality content. She also lets us in on casting processes, establishing a brand identity, and the role of dice rolls in the storyline progression of tabletop RPGs. Get a sneak peek into her favorite character, Layla the Vampire, and why this show holds a special place in her heart.
As we tie up our engaging chat, Margaret shares the hurdles faced by broadcast studios in the wake of the pandemic, dealing with budget cuts, and the indescribable exhilaration of community building.
Find Margaret at:
Find Roll Play Grow:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Courtney (00:08):
Hello and welcome to Role Play Grow, the podcast for
tabletop entrepreneurs, creatorsand fans.
In this show, we dig intoprocesses, challenges, tips and
really look at how to grow abusiness in the tabletop
role-play gaming space.
Sit back and join in as welearn from the creators behind
your favorite brands about whothey are and how they are
turning their passion for gaminginto a career.
(00:29):
Today I am chatting withMargaret Krohn, an industry
veteran of both the video andtabletop gaming scenes.
She is the director ofcommunications at Intrepid Games
, the CMO for Roll4It.
She also streams speaks atpanels and other events and is
intimately involved in just somany aspects of the gaming
community.
However, long conversationcannot do her experience justice
(00:52):
by any means, but it was anabsolute treat to get to hear
about her journey and her workwith Roll4It.
I know that y'all will enjoythis conversation as much as I
did.
(02:21):
Okay, that is enoughintroduction for now.
Please enjoy this chat withMargaret.
Alright, and now we arewelcoming the absolutely lovely
Margaret Krohn to Roll Play Grow.
How are you today, margaret?
Margaret (02:41):
I'm doing great.
Just got off a flight in themorning and here I am, but I'm
excited to chat with you.
I always love talking withfolks, and just tell me to stop
whenever you need me to shut up.
Courtney (02:55):
Honestly, the more you talk, the more easy my job is.
Perfect, yeah, but honestly Iam so excited to dig into your
story because I know it justweaves in and out of video
gaming and tabletop gaming.
You are the director ofcommunications at Interpreter
Games, cmo for Roll4It, streamer, rigger and guest of Panels and
(03:15):
Keynotes Like that's a lot.
It feels like a very busyschedule.
Margaret (03:21):
It can be sometimes.
I'm not a person who can sitstill and not do anything, so I
might get myself into too muchstuff, but I've gotten better
over the years.
People who have known me willagree with that.
I used to do even more thanthat, but I'm slowing it down a
little.
Courtney (03:40):
Okay, okay.
I would love to just dig intoyour journey.
You know how you went fromplaying games to where you are
today.
Margaret (03:51):
How much time you got.
I think you need multiplepodcasts, no, but the short
version of that is you know,I've been a gamer for a long
time.
Since I was a little kid.
I used to play DOS games on thecomputer.
I played lots of board gameswith my cousins and card games,
and back when baseball cardswere a big thing, that was
(04:12):
something that we got into andI've just really loved games.
I think is the best way to putit.
It doesn't matter what formthey come in.
I think I'm generally a verycompetitive person, so I love a
challenge.
Obviously, my life is like oncesomething's working, I'm like
okay, I'm bored, let's find thenext challenge.
(04:32):
So that's kind of just like inmy DNA, I guess, to some extent,
whether that's sports or gamesor whatever type of game it is.
And as I got older that lovedidn't stop.
And when I was in college I wasgoing to school for health care
, administration and musictheory, which has nothing to do
(04:52):
with anything that I do now formy day job.
Some people do use theirdegrees.
I think I use elements of mydegrees is what I always tell
people.
It taught me how to work veryclearly and concisely and
communicate, and it taught mehow to organize things and
budget and I think there's a lotof things that I learned.
(05:14):
And reporting to just makinganalytical reporting that's very
logical and data driven.
I think I learned a lot ofthings in school, but I just
don't use my degree in the sameway that I think some folks do.
But while I was going to collegeI was obviously playing a lot
of games.
I got really competitive in agame called Vanguard Saga of
(05:35):
Heroes, which is not a big MMObut one that is dear to my heart
, and I still have close friendsthat I met through that that
I'm still talking to to this day.
And while I was doing that, Igot invited to be on a podcast
and we started doing the podcastand we got pretty big.
(05:56):
So we got to the point where wegot a bunch of sponsors and
then we got sent out to someevents and at one of these
events, which was called Fanfareat the time for SOE, when they
did exist who was the publisherfor Vanguard Saga of Heroes they
basically, when I was there,were like hey, we listened to
your podcast and have you everthought about being a game
(06:17):
designer?
Because the way that you thinkis like a way that we would love
for designers to be thinking.
And I was like, I feel likeevery kid who loves games wants
to create games, whether that'stabletop games or board games or
whatever it is.
And I don't know if, courtney,you had made board games when
you were a little kid, but meand my cousins would like cut
little squares and make littleboard games for ourselves, like
(06:39):
we were creative people.
And so they told me that therewere some openings that were
going to happen in QA and thatthey would have some
apprenticeships open up.
Because I was like well, I'mnot going to school for game
design and I'm really close togetting my degree, so it would
be really weird for me to changepaths, and so this was an
alternative route for me.
(06:59):
So I applied for the QAposition, got it, got an
apprenticeship, and I think therest is a longer story.
But I have tried many things inthe industry, some by choice,
some not, and it has brought meto where I am today, which is
really exciting making games andhaving the ability to spend my
(07:20):
spare time playing more gamesand making games.
Courtney (07:25):
I think that is really such an interesting
introduction to working in thatindustry, especially if you said
you were majoring in healthcare.
Margaret (07:35):
Healthcare and music theory.
I had a double major.
I really thought that I wouldbe able to help kids with music.
I think that there's a lot ofcool music therapy that has been
proven to help kids and I wouldlove to find a way to make
healthcare fun.
My fiancee, who I've been withI don't know when this is coming
out so he might be my husbandby then, but we've been together
(07:57):
for 20 years.
At this point he already is apart of me.
He can't leave, I'm justkidding.
When we were in high school,his mom is a diabetes nurse and
I did a lot of volunteer workbecause I had to for my degree
with her and just pediatricslike having kids dealing with
not fun things like diabetes.
I was like how do we make thisfun for them?
(08:19):
So I have a lot of ideas.
I just haven't been able to acton them.
But I think someday, when I dohave my own funding, I would
love to be able to act on thosedesigns that I have in my mind.
Courtney (08:31):
Okay, I am 100% an advocate for like yes, let's get
you that funding because thatsounds absolutely amazing.
So I know you said that you'vetouched on a lot of different
aspects within you know, justmaking games.
But have you been able to pullin that love for music into it?
Any of the parts that you'vebeen able to work on?
Margaret (08:53):
I think for tabletop RPG shows I have.
If you watch any Rural Fortshows that I'm part of that I'm
running the broadcast for I'vebeen very fortunate to be able
to add sound effects and audioclips and just making the mood,
the right mood with the rightmusic or the right sound effects
, and I think that that has beencool, but nothing drastic.
Courtney (09:18):
I mean that's so really cool.
Like I've noticed, like I'vebeen, I just recently started
watching Project Marana and so,knowing that you're behind the
music, I'm not like oh, it's socool.
Margaret (09:31):
I'm running the music and running the sound effects
for that show.
Courtney (09:35):
Yeah, now it's nice and creepy and like it.
Just it hits you like becauseit just comes in like so subtly
that it's just like oh wait, ohmy gosh, like this is such a
great atmosphere.
Margaret (09:44):
Yeah, at one point there's a spot where one of the
cast members she has a flashbackto the hospital and I
immediately had some hospitalsounds and she wasn't expecting
it and like you can just see onher face like whoa, okay, this
is real.
Courtney (10:01):
I love just how sounds and music can really like take
you like either back to a memoryor like just kind of evoke such
strong responses.
Margaret (10:12):
Yeah, senses are strange things.
Right, Our brain works in somany mysterious ways, like a
sound, a smell, a visual canlike trigger so many really
interesting things in our minds.
That stuff always intrigues me.
Courtney (10:28):
Yeah, absolutely so.
It's like reminding me of thislike science fair project that I
did in middle school, where Ibuilt I forget what like the
actual term is I think it wassomething like a color organ,
but it was essentially wiring aboard to different strings of
lights so that, like when musiccould play, the lights would
(10:49):
flicker to like match the beatof it, and it was to try and
help like introduce anothersense to what was like being
experienced.
I don't know, it's just likesomething that's always sat with
me ever since I'm like.
It's such an interesting likeblend of ways that you can just
I don't know, like sensory stuffreally is very interesting and
very complex and justfascinating.
(11:11):
Agree, so, okay, we've got alittle bit of an introduction
into how you got into likeworking with video games.
When did the content creationstart?
Margaret (11:26):
Ooh, it kind of goes hand in hand.
When I was working on FreeROMs,which is an MMORPG that was
kind of made for families andkids, so like families could get
their kids into MMOs and playas a family, and there were
parental tools that they coulduse and stuff like that, which
is really cool.
But there were a lot of adultswho just really enjoyed the game
(11:49):
too, which I think that's agood thing.
But while we were doing that,they needed some spokespersons
for it, because I was one of thedesigners there and I don't
know, I just kind of got loopedinto it.
I started doing video stuffwith them, recording things.
We had like a little thing thatwe did with our community and I
(12:12):
wanted to get better at it.
I'm kind of one of those peoplethat when I do something I
don't want to just do it, I wantto give them a hundred percent,
you know.
So I was like how can I getbetter at this?
And really a lot of people werelike, well, you just have to be
on camera more and get morecomfortable with it.
And I still think today I getnervous about things.
I think some people don't getnervous, but I think I'm always
(12:33):
nervous because I want people tobe happy with whatever that end
product is, whether it's avideo or a podcast or whatever
that might be and so I justwanted to get better at it.
I started up a little vlog, andit was also so that my family
could see a little bit more intomy life, because when I moved
(12:54):
for my job I basically had tomove all the way across the
country.
I was living in Illinois andwhen I got the job it was in San
Diego in California, which isvery far away.
I don't know how many otherpeople have followed their
dreams and live really far awayfrom their family, but for me
I'm a very family-centric personso it was very hard for me.
(13:16):
I love being near my family andholidays just aren't the same
without them.
So that was a hard thing to do,but it was worth it in the long
run for the career and I foundways to be able to see my family
just not as often as I wouldhave liked, but that was kind of
.
The big thing was just gettingbetter at being on camera and
(13:38):
giving my family a little lookinto my life and sharing that
with them, and I did vlogs andthen I started doing streaming
of video games so that I couldbe better at talking and playing
at the same time, because thatbecame something I had to be
really good at.
My first stream was likeStarcraft 2, because my friends
really wanted to be able to seewhat I was doing, so I was
(14:00):
walking them through the stepsthat I was taking to crush them.
But yeah, it was fun.
I feel like hopefully I'mbetter at it now.
I look back at some of the oldthings that I used to do and I
was like, wow, I was so shy I'mstill shy, I think, but not as
much on camera.
I can just put it on and beready to rock and roll at this
(14:24):
point.
Courtney (14:26):
Yeah, I think for anyone that does any kind of
content creation, like even withme at this podcast, where I
listen back to my early episodesand I go, oh god, what was I
doing?
Margaret (14:36):
You just get better at it.
I think anything that you'dwant to do in life, and that
this doesn't apply to one thing,it's just do it and do it more.
Don't just do it and do it more, but do it more with a purpose.
I think that a lot of times,people are like, well, I did it
five times.
Why am I a master at it?
It's like what were youanalyzing what you were doing?
Were you retrospective about itand thinking about like, hey,
(14:59):
what could I do better?
And I think that's what reallyelevates people who are wanting
to gain skill versus people whoare like I'm doing the thing
just to do it.
You know what I mean.
Courtney (15:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm curious if there's anythingthat when you do look back and
have those retrospective thingsthat you realize, oh, I wish
that I had started doing thisthing earlier in my content
creation journey, or like, hey,that was actually not too bad,
but here's a way that I couldhave done it better.
Margaret (15:32):
I mean there's the demeanor you put on in regards
to like how you sit and how youstand and what you do with your
hands and speaking and trying to.
I think for me.
So there are multiple differentways that you can become a
creator.
Right Like there's.
I'm an educational creator, I'mteaching people things.
(15:52):
Right, I'm an entertainer I'mlike making people laugh or
whatever it may be, whateverform of entertainment that
you're providing to people, oryou are skilled and you're
showing off some semblance ofskill or something like that.
I wish I knew a little bit moreof like what those paths were.
Early on, I think there was apoint in my career where I could
have changed paths and reallygone down the creator path
(16:16):
versus a very formalprofessional industry path, and
I think that there could havebeen a turning point for me
there.
I think I'm happy that I wentthe professional path because
there's more stability there.
Being a content creator, Ithink being able to have your
own schedule and do the thingsthat only you want to do and
stuff like that is a beautifulthing, but having to stress out
(16:39):
about your monthly incomebecause it fluctuates, or
insurance and things like that,it's not a fun part of the
content creation side and Idon't think content creators
talk about that a lot but thereis a lot of lifestyle stuff that
you just have to be willing toadhere to when you are a
full-time creator.
But I think I could have gonedown the path of being a
(17:00):
full-time creator had I knownwhat the paths were and then if
I took a niche and I would havejust stuck with it and really
grown my career path down thatroad, there could have been an
opportunity for me there.
I guess that would be the thingIn the end.
I'm glad that that's not whereI went.
Courtney (17:17):
Yeah, I definitely have a lot of respect for folks
that do go full time intocontent creation because it
takes so much more work thananyone from the outside ever
realizes.
Margaret (17:29):
Yeah, you think it's easy.
There are some people who getan easy route.
I think there is aentertainment category that is a
little bit more shockentertainment and that has been
really big in our industry, ornot just the gaming industry,
but like entertainment as awhole lately.
(17:51):
I'm not sure how I feel aboutit personally.
It's a dangerous space I thinkthat people are putting
themselves into sometimes, yeah,but it does make it fast, fast
growth, fast viral growth,that's for sure.
Courtney (18:11):
It is.
It is Definitely, I feel, a lotof more toxic personalities in
that category.
Margaret (18:17):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Courtney (18:21):
So what point did you start breaking into more of the
marketing side of things?
Margaret (18:30):
It's a bittersweet thing for me, but basically I
was a game designer for aboutsix years and there was a point
where basically one of thecompanies I worked for forced me
into becoming a communitymanager.
It was either hey, you're goingto go be a community manager or
we're letting you go.
I can talk about this nowbecause I'm no longer under NDA,
but for a while I was, so I hadnot spoken up about this until,
(18:53):
I think, February of 2023.
So I've been holding it in fora while because I had to wait a
certain period of time before Icould even talk about it.
But now I can and I was kind ofemotional, actually speaking
the words out loud.
But yeah, basically I wasforced out of being a game
designer into being a communitymanager and really I should have
(19:16):
just left reflecting on it.
I was actually a good designerand I worked really hard and
everybody I worked with loved meand was like they just thought
that was a choice that I hadmade and not that I was being
forced to do it.
Because they were like, whywould you?
You do so many good things forour company and our team, why
would you want to go there?
That was kind of my journeyinto marketing.
(19:38):
I moved into being a communitymanager.
I learned a lot more than justcommunity manager management
then because back then it wasbefore social media really
became a big thing and thereason why they kind of pushed
me into that was because mypersonal social had a higher
follow account than the companysocial and I think they wanted
to like utilize that knowledgethat I had to bring our
company's standards up, which Idid.
(19:59):
We got tons more following onall our social platforms.
We actually had socialplatforms for some channels that
didn't have them.
We unified our brandings forsome of those brands because I
was like well, you're this titlethere and that title there and
everything needs to behomogenized so that people can
easily find you.
Just like simple stuff.
That now these days I feel likepeople who are doing branding
(20:22):
and marketing know.
But back then I don't feel likeit was as big of a deal because
marketing wasn't done the waythat it is now with, like,
social media and internet.
It was a little bit more oldschool where it's like make a
commercial, you know, Make acommercial on the radio it was
(20:42):
just very different times andalso bringing us up into
streaming and taking some of thestreaming that I had done for
my personal stuff and bringingit into the work.
And then we got to the pointwhere we had three recording
studios in the office, so it waskind of cool.
I got to like push us forwardinto the next generation of
content creation and communitymanagement for the company that
(21:04):
I had worked for, which was funand exciting and a challenge I
did enjoy, but not somethingthat was like my passion and
love.
Courtney (21:15):
Yeah, I can only imagine how like difficult and
frustrating that must have beenespecially if you weren't able
to talk about it.
Margaret (21:24):
Yeah, and I figured what happened that triggered
that push for me to go during myPAX East panel that I did with
a bunch of amazing other peopleabout how to survive the
industry and how to get into thegaming industry.
And yeah, it's a story for sure.
Courtney (21:44):
Yeah, definitely.
Well, I mean, it is also justkind of interesting, too,
thinking of like okay, once youhad made that transition, and
just kind of how marketing hasevolved over the years and even
in just a very short amount oftime, like from year to year, it
seems like there's newplatforms and even these days,
(22:04):
with Twitter justself-destructing and like, what
platforms are going to replaceit?
Is something going to replaceit?
I would just love to hear alittle bit about, like some of
the strategy that goes intoworking in this very evolving
space.
Margaret (22:20):
Ooh, we'd be here all day again.
That's a whole topic that weneed to podcast just for that.
But I would say that my advicefor people is, when it comes to
marketing, because I think a lotof people who run tabletop, rpg
shows or whatever it may bereally understanding your
community, what spaces yourcommunity is in, and ensuring
(22:41):
that you're engaging with themin those spaces, informing them
in those spaces and evaluatingthem in those spaces, because I
think that you can learn a lotabout your content and how to
drive your content and how todrive your marketing through
your community.
And if you don't have thecommunity that you want, then go
(23:02):
into the spaces where thatcommunity is and inform them
that you exist and help themunderstand that they should be.
Why should they should be partof your community?
I think those would be my advicepoints for somebody who's
trying to figure out what spacesto use, because there are a lot
of social media spaces and Idon't think everybody can be in
(23:25):
all of them.
As a professional in anindustry where I can pay people
to be in those spaces, it's alittle different, but I think
the everyday person who isprobably listening to a podcast
or making a live show or wantingto create content, you're not
going to have those resourcesthat I have at my fingertips on
a day-to-day basis.
So I would say find the spacesthat make the most sense for you
(23:49):
and really be a part of thosespaces instead of just posting
on them.
What I see a lot of times issomeone will be like well, I
posted on the platform, but Idon't get any retweets or
follows or shares or likes orwhatever it may be in that
platform, and it's like well,are you just posting?
Are you just shouting into theether?
Are you really part of thatspace?
Courtney (24:10):
That's how much you're actually engaging with your
followers, or with the peoplethat you want to be your
followers.
Exactly, yeah, absolutely.
I think that is really a goodadvice.
Like it's definitely hard justmaking your way into places and
it seems like, oh, like, if youare being consistent is so
(24:30):
important too, and yeah, well,that's just content management
as a whole.
Margaret (24:35):
You have to be consistent.
If you're not consistent, thenpeople will not follow you.
They want to know like hey,every ex day I'm going to see
the thing, or I'm going to watchthe thing, or whatever it may
be.
People are creatures of habit.
They like habits.
If you can get them in a goodhabit, then they will stick with
that habit and you become partof their life habits, which is
(24:57):
very interesting when you startlearning about the psyche and
like how your brain works withhabits.
I would highly recommend lookinginto it.
It is very intriguing.
Courtney (25:11):
Hey, entrepreneurs, I love introducing you to new
creators every episode, but Icould really use your support.
I would love to invite you tojoin our Patreon page, where
you'll gain access to behind thescenes content.
Add your questions to upcominginterviews and you could even
receive a shoutout on our siteand an upcoming episode.
To learn more, go tolightheartadventurescom.
Slash RPG.
(25:32):
And now back to the show.
So I'd love to switch gears alittle bit and talk about role
for it.
So, for starters, for any ofthe listeners that may not be
familiar with you guys, can youjust tell us a little bit about
what role for it is and how itgot started?
Margaret (25:52):
So Roll Forward is a tabletop RPG broadcast studio.
We pay all of our members to beon the cast.
If you're a moderator, prettymuch anybody involved is paid.
We value people's time.
That's one of the big thingsand big reasons why we've gotten
backing.
You can find us on Patreon,youtube, twitch, roll for it
(26:13):
Super easy to find us, andreally we just love telling
stories.
It's about telling deep storiesthrough tabletop RBGs and I
think that a lot of times peoplethink about tabletop RBGs as
like, oh, we're just rollingdice and doing things, but we
really bring it to the nextlevel of improv acting, and so
(26:34):
if you want to listen tosomething that's going to be
there's going to be a game thatwe're going to be playing with
it and that is going to changethe trajectory of what story is
told but if you want to watchsome people who really should
just be actors and actressesbecause they're amazing at
improv and doing voices or wealways dress up to really
(26:59):
telling a story I would highlyrecommend it, totally, not bias.
Courtney (27:07):
How did you get involved with the group?
Margaret (27:10):
So about?
Well, at this point is it sixyears, five years ago, something
like that I had been playing alot on a bunch of different
other tabletop RBG shows acrossa ton of channels and I got
invited onto one of their showsthrough one of their cast
members who played on anothershow with me and was like we
(27:32):
want you to come join us and Iwas like I would love to.
And after joining them, after alittle bit of time, they had a
moment where basically some oftheir leadership was dropping
out.
They wanted to focus on theirother content instead of
focusing on role for content,because they weren't making a
lot of money off the tabletopRBG stuff at the time.
(27:54):
And so I saw a leadershipopportunity open up Only in two
of the spaces that I was playingon and I offered my assistance
to both and one said no and rollfor it said sure, and I joined
them and I came withspreadsheets and a plan and they
(28:15):
were like all right, this iscool.
And from that moment we kind ofchanged our marketing.
We created a brand with brandidentity.
There was a Patreon thatalready existed, but we really
revamped it to ensure peoplewere getting the rewards that
they should be for the tiersthat they were.
We revamped what those tierswere and tried to make sure that
(28:36):
there were things that peoplewanted and, yeah, just kind of
started making a business out ofthe broadcast studio.
Courtney (28:46):
It's funny, though just started making a business
out of the broadcast studio.
It seems like such a.
It almost makes it sound easy,but I know that there's no way
that it was easy.
Margaret (29:01):
Imagine, I think, a lot of people.
You try to plan.
Think about this.
You try to plan to meet up withyour friends to play D&D or
whatever it is Pathfinder D&D,whatever the game is of your
choice.
You're trying to figure outwhat day can work for everybody.
You're trying to work aroundpeople's lives, their families,
and sometimes it can be hard toeven just organize a group of
(29:25):
friends.
Now imagine that on a scale oflike, hey, you're running three
shows with six people and youhave to run audio and you have
to run visual and you need tomake overlay assets and you need
to share this on social mediaand make sure that everyone has
their characters created beforethe time.
You need to do all these thingsin these moving pieces in order
(29:45):
to make sure that you candeliver a product.
And it is more about deliveringsomething that is quality and
finding the right cast membersfor those pieces.
We have a variety of differentshows.
You were saying you're watchingProject Marana.
When I was casting for thatshow I was like, ooh, I need to
find people who can really pulloff horror, right, and who are
(30:05):
those people and will theirchemistry match with each other?
And we've been very fortunatethat the cast that we've put
together have always killed it,and sometimes you have a full
cast of people who don't knoweach other at all and their
chemistry is just amazingbecause you find the right
people for the right show andthey just meld so well together.
Courtney (30:25):
What is your casting process like?
Margaret (30:28):
Now, at this point, we have a large group of people
that we can pull from, andsometimes I'm still scouting.
So I watch a lot of tabletopRPG shows and there will be one
or two people from that thatI'll be like, ooh, I really like
their acting style and I couldsee them transition into
something more like what we do,because when I watch a lot of
shows they're less RP focusedand more like they're playing a
(30:51):
game, like.
It's often how I feel when I'mwatching these shows and I'm
always looking for a talent thatis, that can take it to that
next level.
Even if they aren't doing itnow, I could see the potential
in them to do so.
So once in a while we'll pullsomebody new into our channel.
We do have a lot of reallyamazing people to pull from, so
(31:12):
we kind of do go through thosecast members.
Unless we're like, ooh, we'relooking for a specific type of
person for a certain role, thenmaybe we'll hunt them down.
But yeah, it's just finding theright people that can have the
right chemistry, that can melttogether and tell a great story.
And you don't want everybody tobe the same either, because if
(31:34):
you have everybody who's thesame, they're just going to make
the same character.
You want variation anddifferences and I think that's
what really makes a show a showwhere you go and you're like, oh
wow, these are real.
I feel like these could all bereal people and that they have
background stories and that theyhave motivations and goals and
I don't know how to explain it.
(31:54):
But that's just character.
When you watch a show or read abook, it's about that character
progression for a character andnot just stats.
It's also about them mentallyand where they want to go and
where their trajectory takesthem, and sometimes you leave it
up to a dice roll.
Courtney (32:14):
As it should be.
So I guess I would love to diga little bit into it, because I
love to learn about processesand things, because I'm a
project manager and I don't knowthat's just what I do, but I
guess, using Project Marana asan example, just other than the
casting process, I'd love tohear about the journey of
(32:36):
getting that ready forproduction.
Margaret (32:41):
I think it's pretty much a very similar process for
every show that we do.
It is first and foremost we getSometimes it's a proposal,
sometimes someone will send us aproposal.
This one was a proposal thatwas sent to us by Kelly Wright,
who is the GM for that show andthe owner of the IP for that
show.
To some extent Roll4 owns aportion of that IP for the
(33:02):
characters and what it's shown,but he owns the story.
We contract everybody.
So there's contracts for everycast member, for every GM, for
whatever we do, and sponsors aswell.
So first getting the show ideawhether that is internally, we
make a show idea.
We're like oh, we really want todo this thing or if it's
(33:22):
something that is proposed to usthrough somebody else.
We have quite a few proposalsthat are in the books that are
coming down the line in the nextcouple years.
We actually have the nextcouple years planned, which is
wild and we take that proposal,we go through it, we'll ask any
follow-up questions that we have.
We'll make adjustments.
Sometimes we change the waysomething works, or a good
(33:44):
example is for our Eaton Grainshow.
We actually asked the personwho made the game game if we
could change the rules a littlebit because she was jamming it
In order to make it better foran online show.
Sometimes you can't use some ofthe things in the system in the
way that they are meant to beplayed, because it just doesn't
(34:05):
fit with a show.
So we found a way toincorporate it, but in a
different way, which was reallycool.
So that sometimes can be athing.
So it's finding ways to makesure the system works for a live
show.
Sometimes it's omittingportions of the rules or
adjusting them or whatever itmight be.
Luckily, we're using Call ofCthulhu, which is perfect.
It works great for what we'redoing, and then the next thing
(34:28):
is reaching out to all the cast,ensuring that everybody is
interested and that they're okaywith the pay that they're going
to be provided and the timelineand the dates and stuff like
that.
Sometimes we'll pull everybodytogether and then figure out a
date that works best for peopleand that can be challenging.
But I usually put out like awhen to meet or something of
that sort, where I look atschedules and I find like the
(34:50):
best time, and usually I wouldsay 90% of the time there is not
a perfect time and I have tofind the time that has the most
people available and the peoplewho are not.
I'm like, hey, with enoughadvance notice, do you think you
could change your Thursdaysevery day to be able to do it?
Between this time and forProject Marana, the only time
that we had available toeverybody was like a very
(35:11):
specific, weird timeframe.
So we did that as a prerecordedshow.
Sometimes we do live shows andsometimes we do prerecorded
shows.
For this one we had to doprerecorded just because the
cast wasn't available during ournormal live show time and then
we play that on the live show.
So it's getting all thecontracts signed and then from
there getting everybody'scharacters created and then
(35:35):
getting all of their information.
I have like a form that theyfill out for their character art
and they get that to me by acertain timeline so that I can
then contract the artist to makethe art for the characters.
And then I did all the overlaysand all the social assets and
all of that.
Sometimes we do contract thatout.
I'm getting better at it.
(35:55):
So it's just cheaper for us todo it in-house if we can.
It just depends on if I havetime or not.
So a lot of the overlays andsocial assets you'll see are
made by me, but some of them wehave contracted out.
And then, after that's all done, we have a schedule, we stick
to it and produce the show andthen we push things out to our
(36:20):
Patreon as rewards and it rinsesand repeats until it's over and
then we restart the wholeprocess with another show.
Courtney (36:29):
I have just like a.
It's so interesting and like somuch work that goes into it,
and then like also just keepingin mind that and everybody has
like their, you know, other likefull-time jobs or whatever it
is that they're doing to likebalance as well.
Margaret (36:44):
Yes, I also have other things that I'm doing on top of
all that.
Courtney (36:49):
But you know for me.
Margaret (36:50):
How I see it, is that I could just be playing tabletop
RBGs for free, like I would dothat for free.
So to be able to get paid to doit is pretty awesome.
So it's worth the extra workfor me and I enjoy the work that
I'm doing.
I love, you know, groupingpeople up and organizing and
(37:11):
that community element of things, and I do love creating assets
and the creative process ofcreating shows and live
production.
So it's kind of fun.
I mean it is fun, not just kindof fun, it is fun.
It has moments where it's notfun, like anything that you do.
Courtney (37:31):
Is there a specific episode count that you all agree
to at the beginning of theprocess that gets worked towards
?
Margaret (37:38):
Yeah, so that's part of the proposal process.
So, and that is negotiated.
Sometimes we are pretty goodjudges of like the show is
really maybe better to be toldin five episodes or four, or
this is a really good longformat show, let's do 20.
Project Marana had two options.
He had one that was like a 10episode and one that was 20.
(37:59):
And we're like no, we want the20 episode one.
We can see where this projectcould go and we loved the
concept of having theseflashbacks from 1994, 1995, and
then having the present day,2023, which is really just all
the cast members have beenkilling it, making it feel like,
wow, these people are real.
And then it's like where's thatin between mark where something
(38:21):
disastrous has happened?
Right, and we're slowly gettingthere and I think it's been
pretty exciting to see it comingto fruition.
Courtney (38:30):
Yeah, I'm loving it and even just like, okay, like
it's the date, and I'm like, oh,what was I doing on January 4th
2023?
Margaret (38:37):
Yeah, that is kind of fun to think about, right.
Courtney (38:42):
And I just I love how spooky it is and I'm definitely
getting a lot more into likehorror, actual plays, so I'm
very happy that that is whaty'all are doing.
Margaret (38:51):
We have a variety.
We have shows that are verymuch like a complete opposite of
that.
So it's kind of like, whateveryour vibe is, sometimes you just
got to find what show makes themost sense for you.
Courtney (39:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I know that, like, you havehonestly been doing actual plays
as like a guest, in addition toworking with Role for it for a
very long time, and I'm justcurious, like, is there a
particular character from any ofthe shows that you are just
like?
That is one of my favoritecharacters and I would love to
(39:28):
play them again.
Margaret (39:30):
Oh, so I have two, but for very different reasons.
And one it's less about thecharacter and more about the
show.
I think Layla is probably myfavorite character to play from
Layla the Vampire Slayer.
Just going back and thinkingabout that show, it's very not
like me and you'll see even likeearly on if you go watch that
(39:51):
I'm like apologizing all thetime for being mean and swearing
at people.
I'm like I'm so sorry Becauseit's just not the type of person
I am.
I don't do that.
I would like to say that I'm anice person, but I think playing
a character that's verydifferent from me was really fun
.
And then getting to put littlepieces of me into it and then I
think the player or the viewersgetting to learn why she was the
(40:14):
way she was was really cool.
And just the episodic, everyepisode, how it turned out, and
like getting to know thecharacters and the relationships
between the characters and justI can see that show going
forever.
We always said you know sevenseasons in a movie.
We got pretty close, but Icould definitely see that that
(40:36):
character progressing and beingpart of something bigger and I
would just love to play heragain.
You know my goth, babe, I justcan't let her go.
And then the other show that Ireally liked and I don't I don't
necessarily think I want morefrom it, but just to be like, my
favorite show that I've everbeen a part of is Missing Annie
(40:59):
Lee.
It is a podcast.
I would highly recommendlooking it up and listening to
it.
They're short, like 45 minute,like episodes there's 10.
It's so you can get throughpretty quickly, but it's just so
well done.
I think the story, the editing,like summer did such a good job
with like the audio and thevideo or the audio editing.
It's audio only and it's justso good.
(41:23):
And even as a cast member likeI don't normally rewatch stuff
that I'm on, but they removestuff, they added things, they
move things that were in onespot to another spot.
It's very similar to ProjectMarana in the sense that like
there's a past and a future andlike you're flashing your back
between them and just so welldone.
I love it.
So I think that there's justthat's like my favorite tabletop
(41:46):
show to be part of.
And then the other one is justmy favorite character that I
would love to play again someday.
Courtney (41:53):
Just sitting here like , OK, I don't think I saw that
second one and now I need to gofind it, because that sounds
really really fun.
Margaret (42:00):
Yeah, it's not on roll for it so, but you can find it
on any place where you pod yourcast.
Courtney (42:06):
Yes, amazing.
Well, thank you for giving mesome listening recommendations.
Margaret (42:12):
You have to tell me what you think.
After you listen to it You'regonna be like oh, that's the
worst one, I'm just kidding.
It is also spoopy, so you, youknow it'll keep you in the
spoopy seasons.
Courtney (42:24):
Amazing.
I guess it is the time for that, isn't it?
Margaret (42:28):
For sure.
Courtney (42:29):
Well, so one thing that I like to talk about in all
of my interviews is the factthat you know we're working in
these industries because we lovethem.
However, it tends to be alittle hard sometimes, and so,
just kind of thinking backthrough, you know just your time
with roll for it, what wouldyou say have been some
(42:51):
challenges that you've had toface?
Margaret (42:53):
Oh, I oddly don't feel like there have been major
challenges, fortunately for rollfor it.
I think that there arechallenges in regards to budget
and ensuring that we can paycast the way that we want.
There was a time where certaincast members were like, hey, I
want to be paid this much, and Iwas like that's great that you
(43:15):
can find somebody who can payyou that much, but we can't
afford that.
So I think budgeting has beenprobably the hardest part for us
personally is because we getpeople who want to be paid a
specific amount and hey, ifyou're worth that, you get what
you're worth, as we totallyunderstand that, but I can't
afford that.
So I got to find somebody whois within our budget and it's
(43:36):
sad to not be able to have theperson you want.
So I think that would be likethe biggest challenge.
Other than that, I think justschedules and finding time that
matches for everybody.
Whenever we have to cancelepisodes because someone's sick
or something emergency happensis always unfortunate,
especially when it's last minutefor our viewers.
(43:57):
I think that that can take amajor hit.
I would say the biggest.
Biggest thing that has happenedand it's not just for us, it's
for probably all contentcreators is the pandemic, and
the beginning of that in 2020was really hard.
We lost two thirds of ourincome from people just stopping
(44:22):
because they couldn't affordtheir own lives, which obviously
is, first and foremost, worryabout yourself.
Don't pay for a Patreon thatyou can't really afford.
So I think that is the hardestthing is and it goes back to
that budget element of it andhaving to try to hustle to get
sponsors in order to affordshows where we normally could
(44:43):
have just afforded them throughour Patreon.
Courtney (44:46):
Yeah, that is a lot to lose, like so quickly.
Margaret (44:51):
Yeah, we went from three shows away to one and that
one is now a three hour showinstead of our normal four hours
.
But we're very open with ourviewers and our community and
it's like, hey, if we have moremoney we can afford more stories
, and if we don't, then we don'tmake as many stories or we make
(45:11):
shorter form stories.
But we're gonna keep doing whatwe can in order to pay the
people that we can for the timethat they're putting in their
talent Because, like I said,some of these people should be
actors and actresses.
They're just so good at whatthey do.
Courtney (45:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Have y'all been able to recoversome of like you lost in the
beginning of COVID?
Margaret (45:34):
Not fully, I wouldn't even say 50%, like we are still.
It's going back up, but notdrastically.
Courtney (45:45):
Got to well.
I really hope that that changessoon, because y'all definitely
deserve to be able to get backup to doing three shows at a
time.
Margaret (45:52):
It would be nice, I think, being able to tell more
stories would be fantastic, butat the same time, you know it is
what it is.
Courtney (46:01):
Well, to flip things around, so I guess same kind of
timeframe of like looking backover your time for Roll 4.
What have been some of yourfavorite parts?
Margaret (46:11):
Ooh, there's so many.
I think a lot of them have torevolve around shows that we've
had.
I think we've had some reallyamazing shows with amazing
characters and amazing casts andI think like for me, that is
always a great feeling is whenyou're done with a show and
they're like can we do anotherseason?
Those are the big moments whereviewers are like really pushing
(46:35):
us to continue shows and notonly pushing us to continue
doing the show, but then show upto watch them.
So I think that those are thehigh moments is when you have
the people enjoying it and thepeople who are creating it or
enjoying it, and you have thisamazing synergy, which doesn't
always happen.
So I would say that those arethe big times that I really,
(46:56):
really enjoy things, and alsothe element of community.
I think we built such awonderful community of people
who love tabletop RPGs, who arehelpful, who teach each other,
who answer questions and arekind to one another.
I think that is a big win.
In my mind, there's a lot ofcommunities out there where it's
not as inviting and caring, andI would say that that is a
(47:21):
challenge that I challengeeveryone to build build the
community that you want to be apart of, and maybe that is
something hateful, but that'snot what I want to be a part of.
I want to be part of somethingthat's like helpful and gets
more people involved in tabletop, and I think seeing some of our
viewers play games together hasbeen really cool too.
(47:44):
Like they've formulatedfriendships and so much that
they are playing a bunch.
And the stories when peopletell us they started playing
because of us, I think are sosweet.
Like they never, ever playedany tabletop RPG games and now
that they've watched us, they'relike playing a ton of them and
they have a weekly group thatthey play with and I think
(48:06):
that's really sweet.
And it goes to show that, likeyou know, people think that it's
like this weird thing, but thenwhen they get to be a part of
it, they're like, oh, this isactually pretty cool.
Courtney (48:20):
Yeah, that is really really special.
Yeah, well, we have touched ona lot of different things, but I
want to make sure that we havetime for if there's any upcoming
projects that we haven't talkedabout, that you're excited
about and allowed to talk about,and I'd love to hear about them
.
Margaret (48:40):
Yeah, we talked a little bit about Project Marana.
I would say, if you're lookingfor something that little spoopy
, some call-a-catholique action,come watch it, but we also have
a whole bunch of stuff on rollfor it.
We played a whole ton ofdifferent types of games, like
even the little obscure ones.
So I would definitely say, comecheck out our channel on
(49:02):
YouTube and find whatever it isthe genre that you're looking
for.
We probably have a show that islike that.
I also made a tabletop RPG gamecalled Witches and Spellcraft,
which you can check out on DriveThrough RPG.
You can get it for free or youcan pay whatever you want.
I'm working on a advancedversion of that that has a lot
(49:24):
more rules.
A lot of the feedback I got andI think even one of the reviews
I got on tabletop RPG was likeoh, the system's really simple,
it should have health and theywanted to add all these things
to it and it's like that's thepoint of the system.
It's supposed to be simple.
I created that system because Ihad a group of girlfriends who
didn't really.
(49:44):
They thought tabletop stuff waskind of stupid or nerdy or
weird and which is probably allthose things which I think is
awesome.
I think they're awesome, notstupid, and so I created a game
because I think they all likewitchy stuff, and so I put this
together.
It's very simple, More like MadLibs and D&D had a baby type of
(50:06):
thing and they loved it.
They had so much fun.
One of them now does tons oftabletop RPGs all the time and
they didn't realize how fun itcould be.
And I think that that's, for me,is.
I just want a simple systemthat anybody who plays table or
who has never ever played before, can easily pick it up and play
together and create a story.
And now I'm working on theadvanced version of that, which
(50:28):
I'm really excited about, whichwill be more like
Warhammer-esque in the sense oflike it's going to have a lot of
a lot more roles, but it willbe fun.
So, yeah, that's kind of whatI'm working on.
And then I also am working onAshes of Creation, which is a
MMORPG.
You can check it out at Ashesof Creation all of the spaces.
(50:49):
So kind of the main projectsI'm working on and then planning
a wedding.
So I don't think I need anymore projects on my plate.
Courtney (51:00):
Yeah, that's totally easy and simple project to plan
for.
Margaret (51:04):
I've actually not.
You know, a lot of people tellme it's going to be stressful,
but I have not been stressed outat all.
The last piece that we have ispicking out our dress and our
tux, and we're doing that on the14th of October, which is going
to be really fun.
My family's flying out and I'mjust, I'm excited, I'm probably
going to cry a bunch, but it'llbe fine, I'm fine.
(51:24):
So it's the last piece and thenyou know it's done for us, and
my friend put this into goodperspective for me.
She's like Margaret, how manyevents have you run in your life
?
How many people are thoseevents for?
I was like, okay, that's fair.
I'm used to running like largeevents for companies, and so a
small wedding is probably whyI'm not that stressed out about
(51:46):
it.
Courtney (51:50):
I'm so excited for y'all, Like we've been Facebook
friends for such a long time andit's just kind of like
following along and it's like,oh, I saw the pictures of your
cake and I'm just like, oh myGod, it looks so pretty.
Margaret (52:01):
Yeah, it's going to be very fun and a lot of happy
tears and just celebrating love.
We're celebrating our 20thanniversary with a wedding
because we want to start havingkids and that's kind of like the
next stage in our lives, andit's less about being married
because in our hearts we'realready there, but you know the
formalities of it in order tomake sure that our kids have the
(52:23):
best life they can Amazing,yeah, and then we teach them to
play some tabletop or VG's yes,Starting young.
Yeah, no, I don't know.
We'll see what they're into,but if they have a semblance of
it, you know I'm going to try.
Courtney (52:42):
If people want to find you to be able to follow all of
your cool projects, whereshould they go?
Margaret (52:48):
Yeah, I'm pretty easy to find.
I'm Margaret Crone in all ofthe places, margaret Crone
everywhere except for TikTok.
I'm Margaret Crone1337 becausesomeone took my name.
We're not using it so I don'tknow.
I can't get it.
So that's how to find me, supereasy.
I have a website too,margaretcronecom.
It's pretty much the same stuff, but, yeah, I post whenever I'm
(53:10):
doing stuff and, like I said,those are kind of the main
projects that I'm working onright now, at the moment and
trying to keep it chill but alsostill do the things that I
really love and enjoying life.
Courtney (53:24):
Amazing.
Yeah, thank you so much forcoming on the show today,
margaret.
This has been really fun.
Margaret (53:30):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Hopefully people aren't boredout of their minds.
Courtney (53:36):
Definitely not, and thank you, listeners, for tuning
in today.
At this point I am going tostop the official interview with
Margaret and then I'm going tostart recording again for a fun
little quick question blitz thatis exclusively for patrons,
which you can find us on Patreonjust that roleplay grow and I'm
going to ask her a series ofquestions.
(53:58):
Summer gaming related summernot, but just a good chance to
get to know a little bit moreabout Margaret outside of the
gaming sphere.
Thank you again for listeningand thank you, margaret.
This has been an absolute treat.
You just finished anotherepisode of roleplay grow.
To check out the show notes andtranscript from today's episode,
(54:18):
you can go tolightheartadventures.
com/rpg.
To keep up with every episode,please subscribe on your podcast
player of choice and if you'reenjoying the show, I would
absolutely love if you wouldleave me a review and share this
episode with your friends.
Your review might even getfeatured on an upcoming episode.
To contact us, you can emailroleplaygrow at gmailcom.
(54:41):
There are a lot of social mediasites out there right now, so
look for roleplaygrow for theshow account and look for either
Ketra or Ketra RPG for myaccounts and Dungeon Glitch for
Matt's accounts.
Lastly, I want to give aspecial shout out to our editor,
sam Atkinson.
Your help is always appreciated.
(55:02):
Sam, thank you all so much forlistening and I'll see you next
time on roleplaygrow.
Hello and welcome to Role Play Grow, the podcast for
tabletop entrepreneurs, creatorsand fans.
In this show, we dig intoprocesses, challenges, tips and
really look at how to grow abusiness in the tabletop
role-play gaming space.
Sit back and join in as welearn from the creators behind
your favorite brands about whothey are and how they are
turning their passion for gaminginto a career.
(00:29):
Today I am chatting withMargaret Krohn, an industry
veteran of both the video andtabletop gaming scenes.
She is the director ofcommunications at Intrepid Games
, the CMO for Roll4It.
She also streams speaks atpanels and other events and is
intimately involved in just somany aspects of the gaming
community.
However, long conversationcannot do her experience justice
(00:52):
by any means, but it was anabsolute treat to get to hear
about her journey and her workwith Roll4It.
I know that y'all will enjoythis conversation as much as I
did.
(02:21):
Okay, that is enoughintroduction for now.
Please enjoy this chat withMargaret.
Alright, and now we arewelcoming the absolutely lovely
Margaret Krohn to Roll Play Grow.
How are you today, margaret?
Margaret (02:41):
I'm doing great.
Just got off a flight in themorning and here I am, but I'm
excited to chat with you.
I always love talking withfolks, and just tell me to stop
whenever you need me to shut up.
Courtney (02:55):
Honestly, the more you talk, the more easy my job is.
Perfect, yeah, but honestly Iam so excited to dig into your
story because I know it justweaves in and out of video
gaming and tabletop gaming.
You are the director ofcommunications at Interpreter
Games, cmo for Roll4It, streamer, rigger and guest of Panels and
(03:15):
Keynotes Like that's a lot.
It feels like a very busyschedule.
Margaret (03:21):
It can be sometimes.
I'm not a person who can sitstill and not do anything, so I
might get myself into too muchstuff, but I've gotten better
over the years.
People who have known me willagree with that.
I used to do even more thanthat, but I'm slowing it down a
little.
Courtney (03:40):
Okay, okay.
I would love to just dig intoyour journey.
You know how you went fromplaying games to where you are
today.
Margaret (03:51):
How much time you got.
I think you need multiplepodcasts, no, but the short
version of that is you know,I've been a gamer for a long
time.
Since I was a little kid.
I used to play DOS games on thecomputer.
I played lots of board gameswith my cousins and card games,
and back when baseball cardswere a big thing, that was
(04:12):
something that we got into andI've just really loved games.
I think is the best way to putit.
It doesn't matter what formthey come in.
I think I'm generally a verycompetitive person, so I love a
challenge.
Obviously, my life is like oncesomething's working, I'm like
okay, I'm bored, let's find thenext challenge.
(04:32):
So that's kind of just like inmy DNA, I guess, to some extent,
whether that's sports or gamesor whatever type of game it is.
And as I got older that lovedidn't stop.
And when I was in college I wasgoing to school for health care
, administration and musictheory, which has nothing to do
(04:52):
with anything that I do now formy day job.
Some people do use theirdegrees.
I think I use elements of mydegrees is what I always tell
people.
It taught me how to work veryclearly and concisely and
communicate, and it taught mehow to organize things and
budget and I think there's a lotof things that I learned.
(05:14):
And reporting to just makinganalytical reporting that's very
logical and data driven.
I think I learned a lot ofthings in school, but I just
don't use my degree in the sameway that I think some folks do.
But while I was going to collegeI was obviously playing a lot
of games.
I got really competitive in agame called Vanguard Saga of
(05:35):
Heroes, which is not a big MMObut one that is dear to my heart
, and I still have close friendsthat I met through that that
I'm still talking to to this day.
And while I was doing that, Igot invited to be on a podcast
and we started doing the podcastand we got pretty big.
(05:56):
So we got to the point where wegot a bunch of sponsors and
then we got sent out to someevents and at one of these
events, which was called Fanfareat the time for SOE, when they
did exist who was the publisherfor Vanguard Saga of Heroes they
basically, when I was there,were like hey, we listened to
your podcast and have you everthought about being a game
(06:17):
designer?
Because the way that you thinkis like a way that we would love
for designers to be thinking.
And I was like, I feel likeevery kid who loves games wants
to create games, whether that'stabletop games or board games or
whatever it is.
And I don't know if, courtney,you had made board games when
you were a little kid, but meand my cousins would like cut
little squares and make littleboard games for ourselves, like
(06:39):
we were creative people.
And so they told me that therewere some openings that were
going to happen in QA and thatthey would have some
apprenticeships open up.
Because I was like well, I'mnot going to school for game
design and I'm really close togetting my degree, so it would
be really weird for me to changepaths, and so this was an
alternative route for me.
(06:59):
So I applied for the QAposition, got it, got an
apprenticeship, and I think therest is a longer story.
But I have tried many things inthe industry, some by choice,
some not, and it has brought meto where I am today, which is
really exciting making games andhaving the ability to spend my
(07:20):
spare time playing more gamesand making games.
Courtney (07:25):
I think that is really such an interesting
introduction to working in thatindustry, especially if you said
you were majoring in healthcare.
Margaret (07:35):
Healthcare and music theory.
I had a double major.
I really thought that I wouldbe able to help kids with music.
I think that there's a lot ofcool music therapy that has been
proven to help kids and I wouldlove to find a way to make
healthcare fun.
My fiancee, who I've been withI don't know when this is coming
out so he might be my husbandby then, but we've been together
(07:57):
for 20 years.
At this point he already is apart of me.
He can't leave, I'm justkidding.
When we were in high school,his mom is a diabetes nurse and
I did a lot of volunteer workbecause I had to for my degree
with her and just pediatricslike having kids dealing with
not fun things like diabetes.
I was like how do we make thisfun for them?
(08:19):
So I have a lot of ideas.
I just haven't been able to acton them.
But I think someday, when I dohave my own funding, I would
love to be able to act on thosedesigns that I have in my mind.
Courtney (08:31):
Okay, I am 100% an advocate for like yes, let's get
you that funding because thatsounds absolutely amazing.
So I know you said that you'vetouched on a lot of different
aspects within you know, justmaking games.
But have you been able to pullin that love for music into it?
Any of the parts that you'vebeen able to work on?
Margaret (08:53):
I think for tabletop RPG shows I have.
If you watch any Rural Fortshows that I'm part of that I'm
running the broadcast for I'vebeen very fortunate to be able
to add sound effects and audioclips and just making the mood,
the right mood with the rightmusic or the right sound effects
, and I think that that has beencool, but nothing drastic.
Courtney (09:18):
I mean that's so really cool.
Like I've noticed, like I'vebeen, I just recently started
watching Project Marana and so,knowing that you're behind the
music, I'm not like oh, it's socool.
Margaret (09:31):
I'm running the music and running the sound effects
for that show.
Courtney (09:35):
Yeah, now it's nice and creepy and like it.
Just it hits you like becauseit just comes in like so subtly
that it's just like oh wait, ohmy gosh, like this is such a
great atmosphere.
Margaret (09:44):
Yeah, at one point there's a spot where one of the
cast members she has a flashbackto the hospital and I
immediately had some hospitalsounds and she wasn't expecting
it and like you can just see onher face like whoa, okay, this
is real.
Courtney (10:01):
I love just how sounds and music can really like take
you like either back to a memoryor like just kind of evoke such
strong responses.
Margaret (10:12):
Yeah, senses are strange things.
Right, Our brain works in somany mysterious ways, like a
sound, a smell, a visual canlike trigger so many really
interesting things in our minds.
That stuff always intrigues me.
Courtney (10:28):
Yeah, absolutely so.
It's like reminding me of thislike science fair project that I
did in middle school, where Ibuilt I forget what like the
actual term is I think it wassomething like a color organ,
but it was essentially wiring aboard to different strings of
lights so that, like when musiccould play, the lights would
(10:49):
flicker to like match the beatof it, and it was to try and
help like introduce anothersense to what was like being
experienced.
I don't know, it's just likesomething that's always sat with
me ever since I'm like.
It's such an interesting likeblend of ways that you can just
I don't know, like sensory stuffreally is very interesting and
very complex and justfascinating.
(11:11):
Agree, so, okay, we've got alittle bit of an introduction
into how you got into likeworking with video games.
When did the content creationstart?
Margaret (11:26):
Ooh, it kind of goes hand in hand.
When I was working on FreeROMs,which is an MMORPG that was
kind of made for families andkids, so like families could get
their kids into MMOs and playas a family, and there were
parental tools that they coulduse and stuff like that, which
is really cool.
But there were a lot of adultswho just really enjoyed the game
(11:49):
too, which I think that's agood thing.
But while we were doing that,they needed some spokespersons
for it, because I was one of thedesigners there and I don't
know, I just kind of got loopedinto it.
I started doing video stuffwith them, recording things.
We had like a little thing thatwe did with our community and I
(12:12):
wanted to get better at it.
I'm kind of one of those peoplethat when I do something I
don't want to just do it, I wantto give them a hundred percent,
you know.
So I was like how can I getbetter at this?
And really a lot of people werelike, well, you just have to be
on camera more and get morecomfortable with it.
And I still think today I getnervous about things.
I think some people don't getnervous, but I think I'm always
(12:33):
nervous because I want people tobe happy with whatever that end
product is, whether it's avideo or a podcast or whatever
that might be and so I justwanted to get better at it.
I started up a little vlog, andit was also so that my family
could see a little bit more intomy life, because when I moved
(12:54):
for my job I basically had tomove all the way across the
country.
I was living in Illinois andwhen I got the job it was in San
Diego in California, which isvery far away.
I don't know how many otherpeople have followed their
dreams and live really far awayfrom their family, but for me
I'm a very family-centric personso it was very hard for me.
(13:16):
I love being near my family andholidays just aren't the same
without them.
So that was a hard thing to do,but it was worth it in the long
run for the career and I foundways to be able to see my family
just not as often as I wouldhave liked, but that was kind of
.
The big thing was just gettingbetter at being on camera and
(13:38):
giving my family a little lookinto my life and sharing that
with them, and I did vlogs andthen I started doing streaming
of video games so that I couldbe better at talking and playing
at the same time, because thatbecame something I had to be
really good at.
My first stream was likeStarcraft 2, because my friends
really wanted to be able to seewhat I was doing, so I was
(14:00):
walking them through the stepsthat I was taking to crush them.
But yeah, it was fun.
I feel like hopefully I'mbetter at it now.
I look back at some of the oldthings that I used to do and I
was like, wow, I was so shy I'mstill shy, I think, but not as
much on camera.
I can just put it on and beready to rock and roll at this
(14:24):
point.
Courtney (14:26):
Yeah, I think for anyone that does any kind of
content creation, like even withme at this podcast, where I
listen back to my early episodesand I go, oh god, what was I
doing?
Margaret (14:36):
You just get better at it.
I think anything that you'dwant to do in life, and that
this doesn't apply to one thing,it's just do it and do it more.
Don't just do it and do it more, but do it more with a purpose.
I think that a lot of times,people are like, well, I did it
five times.
Why am I a master at it?
It's like what were youanalyzing what you were doing?
Were you retrospective about itand thinking about like, hey,
(14:59):
what could I do better?
And I think that's what reallyelevates people who are wanting
to gain skill versus people whoare like I'm doing the thing
just to do it.
You know what I mean.
Courtney (15:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm curious if there's anythingthat when you do look back and
have those retrospective thingsthat you realize, oh, I wish
that I had started doing thisthing earlier in my content
creation journey, or like, hey,that was actually not too bad,
but here's a way that I couldhave done it better.
Margaret (15:32):
I mean there's the demeanor you put on in regards
to like how you sit and how youstand and what you do with your
hands and speaking and trying to.
I think for me.
So there are multiple differentways that you can become a
creator.
Right Like there's.
I'm an educational creator, I'mteaching people things.
(15:52):
Right, I'm an entertainer I'mlike making people laugh or
whatever it may be, whateverform of entertainment that
you're providing to people, oryou are skilled and you're
showing off some semblance ofskill or something like that.
I wish I knew a little bit moreof like what those paths were.
Early on, I think there was apoint in my career where I could
have changed paths and reallygone down the creator path
(16:16):
versus a very formalprofessional industry path, and
I think that there could havebeen a turning point for me
there.
I think I'm happy that I wentthe professional path because
there's more stability there.
Being a content creator, Ithink being able to have your
own schedule and do the thingsthat only you want to do and
stuff like that is a beautifulthing, but having to stress out
(16:39):
about your monthly incomebecause it fluctuates, or
insurance and things like that,it's not a fun part of the
content creation side and Idon't think content creators
talk about that a lot but thereis a lot of lifestyle stuff that
you just have to be willing toadhere to when you are a
full-time creator.
But I think I could have gonedown the path of being a
(17:00):
full-time creator had I knownwhat the paths were and then if
I took a niche and I would havejust stuck with it and really
grown my career path down thatroad, there could have been an
opportunity for me there.
I guess that would be the thingIn the end.
I'm glad that that's not whereI went.
Courtney (17:17):
Yeah, I definitely have a lot of respect for folks
that do go full time intocontent creation because it
takes so much more work thananyone from the outside ever
realizes.
Margaret (17:29):
Yeah, you think it's easy.
There are some people who getan easy route.
I think there is aentertainment category that is a
little bit more shockentertainment and that has been
really big in our industry, ornot just the gaming industry,
but like entertainment as awhole lately.
(17:51):
I'm not sure how I feel aboutit personally.
It's a dangerous space I thinkthat people are putting
themselves into sometimes, yeah,but it does make it fast, fast
growth, fast viral growth,that's for sure.
Courtney (18:11):
It is.
It is Definitely, I feel, a lotof more toxic personalities in
that category.
Margaret (18:17):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Courtney (18:21):
So what point did you start breaking into more of the
marketing side of things?
Margaret (18:30):
It's a bittersweet thing for me, but basically I
was a game designer for aboutsix years and there was a point
where basically one of thecompanies I worked for forced me
into becoming a communitymanager.
It was either hey, you're goingto go be a community manager or
we're letting you go.
I can talk about this nowbecause I'm no longer under NDA,
but for a while I was, so I hadnot spoken up about this until,
(18:53):
I think, February of 2023.
So I've been holding it in fora while because I had to wait a
certain period of time before Icould even talk about it.
But now I can and I was kind ofemotional, actually speaking
the words out loud.
But yeah, basically I wasforced out of being a game
designer into being a communitymanager and really I should have
(19:16):
just left reflecting on it.
I was actually a good designerand I worked really hard and
everybody I worked with loved meand was like they just thought
that was a choice that I hadmade and not that I was being
forced to do it.
Because they were like, whywould you?
You do so many good things forour company and our team, why
would you want to go there?
That was kind of my journeyinto marketing.
(19:38):
I moved into being a communitymanager.
I learned a lot more than justcommunity manager management
then because back then it wasbefore social media really
became a big thing and thereason why they kind of pushed
me into that was because mypersonal social had a higher
follow account than the companysocial and I think they wanted
to like utilize that knowledgethat I had to bring our
company's standards up, which Idid.
(19:59):
We got tons more following onall our social platforms.
We actually had socialplatforms for some channels that
didn't have them.
We unified our brandings forsome of those brands because I
was like well, you're this titlethere and that title there and
everything needs to behomogenized so that people can
easily find you.
Just like simple stuff.
That now these days I feel likepeople who are doing branding
(20:22):
and marketing know.
But back then I don't feel likeit was as big of a deal because
marketing wasn't done the waythat it is now with, like,
social media and internet.
It was a little bit more oldschool where it's like make a
commercial, you know, Make acommercial on the radio it was
(20:42):
just very different times andalso bringing us up into
streaming and taking some of thestreaming that I had done for
my personal stuff and bringingit into the work.
And then we got to the pointwhere we had three recording
studios in the office, so it waskind of cool.
I got to like push us forwardinto the next generation of
content creation and communitymanagement for the company that
(21:04):
I had worked for, which was funand exciting and a challenge I
did enjoy, but not somethingthat was like my passion and
love.
Courtney (21:15):
Yeah, I can only imagine how like difficult and
frustrating that must have beenespecially if you weren't able
to talk about it.
Margaret (21:24):
Yeah, and I figured what happened that triggered
that push for me to go during myPAX East panel that I did with
a bunch of amazing other peopleabout how to survive the
industry and how to get into thegaming industry.
And yeah, it's a story for sure.
Courtney (21:44):
Yeah, definitely.
Well, I mean, it is also justkind of interesting, too,
thinking of like okay, once youhad made that transition, and
just kind of how marketing hasevolved over the years and even
in just a very short amount oftime, like from year to year, it
seems like there's newplatforms and even these days,
(22:04):
with Twitter justself-destructing and like, what
platforms are going to replaceit?
Is something going to replaceit?
I would just love to hear alittle bit about, like some of
the strategy that goes intoworking in this very evolving
space.
Margaret (22:20):
Ooh, we'd be here all day again.
That's a whole topic that weneed to podcast just for that.
But I would say that my advicefor people is, when it comes to
marketing, because I think a lotof people who run tabletop, rpg
shows or whatever it may bereally understanding your
community, what spaces yourcommunity is in, and ensuring
(22:41):
that you're engaging with themin those spaces, informing them
in those spaces and evaluatingthem in those spaces, because I
think that you can learn a lotabout your content and how to
drive your content and how todrive your marketing through
your community.
And if you don't have thecommunity that you want, then go
(23:02):
into the spaces where thatcommunity is and inform them
that you exist and help themunderstand that they should be.
Why should they should be partof your community?
I think those would be my advicepoints for somebody who's
trying to figure out what spacesto use, because there are a lot
of social media spaces and Idon't think everybody can be in
(23:25):
all of them.
As a professional in anindustry where I can pay people
to be in those spaces, it's alittle different, but I think
the everyday person who isprobably listening to a podcast
or making a live show or wantingto create content, you're not
going to have those resourcesthat I have at my fingertips on
a day-to-day basis.
So I would say find the spacesthat make the most sense for you
(23:49):
and really be a part of thosespaces instead of just posting
on them.
What I see a lot of times issomeone will be like well, I
posted on the platform, but Idon't get any retweets or
follows or shares or likes orwhatever it may be in that
platform, and it's like well,are you just posting?
Are you just shouting into theether?
Are you really part of thatspace?
Courtney (24:10):
That's how much you're actually engaging with your
followers, or with the peoplethat you want to be your
followers.
Exactly, yeah, absolutely.
I think that is really a goodadvice.
Like it's definitely hard justmaking your way into places and
it seems like, oh, like, if youare being consistent is so
(24:30):
important too, and yeah, well,that's just content management
as a whole.
Margaret (24:35):
You have to be consistent.
If you're not consistent, thenpeople will not follow you.
They want to know like hey,every ex day I'm going to see
the thing, or I'm going to watchthe thing, or whatever it may
be.
People are creatures of habit.
They like habits.
If you can get them in a goodhabit, then they will stick with
that habit and you become partof their life habits, which is
(24:57):
very interesting when you startlearning about the psyche and
like how your brain works withhabits.
I would highly recommend lookinginto it.
It is very intriguing.
Courtney (25:11):
Hey, entrepreneurs, I love introducing you to new
creators every episode, but Icould really use your support.
I would love to invite you tojoin our Patreon page, where
you'll gain access to behind thescenes content.
Add your questions to upcominginterviews and you could even
receive a shoutout on our siteand an upcoming episode.
To learn more, go tolightheartadventurescom.
Slash RPG.
(25:32):
And now back to the show.
So I'd love to switch gears alittle bit and talk about role
for it.
So, for starters, for any ofthe listeners that may not be
familiar with you guys, can youjust tell us a little bit about
what role for it is and how itgot started?
Margaret (25:52):
So Roll Forward is a tabletop RPG broadcast studio.
We pay all of our members to beon the cast.
If you're a moderator, prettymuch anybody involved is paid.
We value people's time.
That's one of the big thingsand big reasons why we've gotten
backing.
You can find us on Patreon,youtube, twitch, roll for it
(26:13):
Super easy to find us, andreally we just love telling
stories.
It's about telling deep storiesthrough tabletop RBGs and I
think that a lot of times peoplethink about tabletop RBGs as
like, oh, we're just rollingdice and doing things, but we
really bring it to the nextlevel of improv acting, and so
(26:34):
if you want to listen tosomething that's going to be
there's going to be a game thatwe're going to be playing with
it and that is going to changethe trajectory of what story is
told but if you want to watchsome people who really should
just be actors and actressesbecause they're amazing at
improv and doing voices or wealways dress up to really
(26:59):
telling a story I would highlyrecommend it, totally, not bias.
Courtney (27:07):
How did you get involved with the group?
Margaret (27:10):
So about?
Well, at this point is it sixyears, five years ago, something
like that I had been playing alot on a bunch of different
other tabletop RBG shows acrossa ton of channels and I got
invited onto one of their showsthrough one of their cast
members who played on anothershow with me and was like we
(27:32):
want you to come join us and Iwas like I would love to.
And after joining them, after alittle bit of time, they had a
moment where basically some oftheir leadership was dropping
out.
They wanted to focus on theirother content instead of
focusing on role for content,because they weren't making a
lot of money off the tabletopRBG stuff at the time.
(27:54):
And so I saw a leadershipopportunity open up Only in two
of the spaces that I was playingon and I offered my assistance
to both and one said no and rollfor it said sure, and I joined
them and I came withspreadsheets and a plan and they
(28:15):
were like all right, this iscool.
And from that moment we kind ofchanged our marketing.
We created a brand with brandidentity.
There was a Patreon thatalready existed, but we really
revamped it to ensure peoplewere getting the rewards that
they should be for the tiersthat they were.
We revamped what those tierswere and tried to make sure that
(28:36):
there were things that peoplewanted and, yeah, just kind of
started making a business out ofthe broadcast studio.
Courtney (28:46):
It's funny, though just started making a business
out of the broadcast studio.
It seems like such a.
It almost makes it sound easy,but I know that there's no way
that it was easy.
Margaret (29:01):
Imagine, I think, a lot of people.
You try to plan.
Think about this.
You try to plan to meet up withyour friends to play D&D or
whatever it is Pathfinder D&D,whatever the game is of your
choice.
You're trying to figure outwhat day can work for everybody.
You're trying to work aroundpeople's lives, their families,
and sometimes it can be hard toeven just organize a group of
(29:25):
friends.
Now imagine that on a scale oflike, hey, you're running three
shows with six people and youhave to run audio and you have
to run visual and you need tomake overlay assets and you need
to share this on social mediaand make sure that everyone has
their characters created beforethe time.
You need to do all these thingsin these moving pieces in order
(29:45):
to make sure that you candeliver a product.
And it is more about deliveringsomething that is quality and
finding the right cast membersfor those pieces.
We have a variety of differentshows.
You were saying you're watchingProject Marana.
When I was casting for thatshow I was like, ooh, I need to
find people who can really pulloff horror, right, and who are
(30:05):
those people and will theirchemistry match with each other?
And we've been very fortunatethat the cast that we've put
together have always killed it,and sometimes you have a full
cast of people who don't knoweach other at all and their
chemistry is just amazingbecause you find the right
people for the right show andthey just meld so well together.
Courtney (30:25):
What is your casting process like?
Margaret (30:28):
Now, at this point, we have a large group of people
that we can pull from, andsometimes I'm still scouting.
So I watch a lot of tabletopRPG shows and there will be one
or two people from that thatI'll be like, ooh, I really like
their acting style and I couldsee them transition into
something more like what we do,because when I watch a lot of
shows they're less RP focusedand more like they're playing a
(30:51):
game, like.
It's often how I feel when I'mwatching these shows and I'm
always looking for a talent thatis, that can take it to that
next level.
Even if they aren't doing itnow, I could see the potential
in them to do so.
So once in a while we'll pullsomebody new into our channel.
We do have a lot of reallyamazing people to pull from, so
(31:12):
we kind of do go through thosecast members.
Unless we're like, ooh, we'relooking for a specific type of
person for a certain role, thenmaybe we'll hunt them down.
But yeah, it's just finding theright people that can have the
right chemistry, that can melttogether and tell a great story.
And you don't want everybody tobe the same either, because if
(31:34):
you have everybody who's thesame, they're just going to make
the same character.
You want variation anddifferences and I think that's
what really makes a show a showwhere you go and you're like, oh
wow, these are real.
I feel like these could all bereal people and that they have
background stories and that theyhave motivations and goals and
I don't know how to explain it.
(31:54):
But that's just character.
When you watch a show or read abook, it's about that character
progression for a character andnot just stats.
It's also about them mentallyand where they want to go and
where their trajectory takesthem, and sometimes you leave it
up to a dice roll.
Courtney (32:14):
As it should be.
So I guess I would love to diga little bit into it, because I
love to learn about processesand things, because I'm a
project manager and I don't knowthat's just what I do, but I
guess, using Project Marana asan example, just other than the
casting process, I'd love tohear about the journey of
(32:36):
getting that ready forproduction.
Margaret (32:41):
I think it's pretty much a very similar process for
every show that we do.
It is first and foremost we getSometimes it's a proposal,
sometimes someone will send us aproposal.
This one was a proposal thatwas sent to us by Kelly Wright,
who is the GM for that show andthe owner of the IP for that
show.
To some extent Roll4 owns aportion of that IP for the
(33:02):
characters and what it's shown,but he owns the story.
We contract everybody.
So there's contracts for everycast member, for every GM, for
whatever we do, and sponsors aswell.
So first getting the show ideawhether that is internally, we
make a show idea.
We're like oh, we really want todo this thing or if it's
(33:22):
something that is proposed to usthrough somebody else.
We have quite a few proposalsthat are in the books that are
coming down the line in the nextcouple years.
We actually have the nextcouple years planned, which is
wild and we take that proposal,we go through it, we'll ask any
follow-up questions that we have.
We'll make adjustments.
Sometimes we change the waysomething works, or a good
(33:44):
example is for our Eaton Grainshow.
We actually asked the personwho made the game game if we
could change the rules a littlebit because she was jamming it
In order to make it better foran online show.
Sometimes you can't use some ofthe things in the system in the
way that they are meant to beplayed, because it just doesn't
(34:05):
fit with a show.
So we found a way toincorporate it, but in a
different way, which was reallycool.
So that sometimes can be athing.
So it's finding ways to makesure the system works for a live
show.
Sometimes it's omittingportions of the rules or
adjusting them or whatever itmight be.
Luckily, we're using Call ofCthulhu, which is perfect.
It works great for what we'redoing, and then the next thing
(34:28):
is reaching out to all the cast,ensuring that everybody is
interested and that they're okaywith the pay that they're going
to be provided and the timelineand the dates and stuff like
that.
Sometimes we'll pull everybodytogether and then figure out a
date that works best for peopleand that can be challenging.
But I usually put out like awhen to meet or something of
that sort, where I look atschedules and I find like the
(34:50):
best time, and usually I wouldsay 90% of the time there is not
a perfect time and I have tofind the time that has the most
people available and the peoplewho are not.
I'm like, hey, with enoughadvance notice, do you think you
could change your Thursdaysevery day to be able to do it?
Between this time and forProject Marana, the only time
that we had available toeverybody was like a very
(35:11):
specific, weird timeframe.
So we did that as a prerecordedshow.
Sometimes we do live shows andsometimes we do prerecorded
shows.
For this one we had to doprerecorded just because the
cast wasn't available during ournormal live show time and then
we play that on the live show.
So it's getting all thecontracts signed and then from
there getting everybody'scharacters created and then
(35:35):
getting all of their information.
I have like a form that theyfill out for their character art
and they get that to me by acertain timeline so that I can
then contract the artist to makethe art for the characters.
And then I did all the overlaysand all the social assets and
all of that.
Sometimes we do contract thatout.
I'm getting better at it.
(35:55):
So it's just cheaper for us todo it in-house if we can.
It just depends on if I havetime or not.
So a lot of the overlays andsocial assets you'll see are
made by me, but some of them wehave contracted out.
And then, after that's all done, we have a schedule, we stick
to it and produce the show andthen we push things out to our
(36:20):
Patreon as rewards and it rinsesand repeats until it's over and
then we restart the wholeprocess with another show.
Courtney (36:29):
I have just like a.
It's so interesting and like somuch work that goes into it,
and then like also just keepingin mind that and everybody has
like their, you know, other likefull-time jobs or whatever it
is that they're doing to likebalance as well.
Margaret (36:44):
Yes, I also have other things that I'm doing on top of
all that.
Courtney (36:49):
But you know for me.
Margaret (36:50):
How I see it, is that I could just be playing tabletop
RBGs for free, like I would dothat for free.
So to be able to get paid to doit is pretty awesome.
So it's worth the extra workfor me and I enjoy the work that
I'm doing.
I love, you know, groupingpeople up and organizing and
(37:11):
that community element of things, and I do love creating assets
and the creative process ofcreating shows and live
production.
So it's kind of fun.
I mean it is fun, not just kindof fun, it is fun.
It has moments where it's notfun, like anything that you do.
Courtney (37:31):
Is there a specific episode count that you all agree
to at the beginning of theprocess that gets worked towards
?
Margaret (37:38):
Yeah, so that's part of the proposal process.
So, and that is negotiated.
Sometimes we are pretty goodjudges of like the show is
really maybe better to be toldin five episodes or four, or
this is a really good longformat show, let's do 20.
Project Marana had two options.
He had one that was like a 10episode and one that was 20.
(37:59):
And we're like no, we want the20 episode one.
We can see where this projectcould go and we loved the
concept of having theseflashbacks from 1994, 1995, and
then having the present day,2023, which is really just all
the cast members have beenkilling it, making it feel like,
wow, these people are real.
And then it's like where's thatin between mark where something
(38:21):
disastrous has happened?
Right, and we're slowly gettingthere and I think it's been
pretty exciting to see it comingto fruition.
Courtney (38:30):
Yeah, I'm loving it and even just like, okay, like
it's the date, and I'm like, oh,what was I doing on January 4th
2023?
Margaret (38:37):
Yeah, that is kind of fun to think about, right.
Courtney (38:42):
And I just I love how spooky it is and I'm definitely
getting a lot more into likehorror, actual plays, so I'm
very happy that that is whaty'all are doing.
Margaret (38:51):
We have a variety.
We have shows that are verymuch like a complete opposite of
that.
So it's kind of like, whateveryour vibe is, sometimes you just
got to find what show makes themost sense for you.
Courtney (39:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I know that, like, you havehonestly been doing actual plays
as like a guest, in addition toworking with Role for it for a
very long time, and I'm justcurious, like, is there a
particular character from any ofthe shows that you are just
like?
That is one of my favoritecharacters and I would love to
(39:28):
play them again.
Margaret (39:30):
Oh, so I have two, but for very different reasons.
And one it's less about thecharacter and more about the
show.
I think Layla is probably myfavorite character to play from
Layla the Vampire Slayer.
Just going back and thinkingabout that show, it's very not
like me and you'll see even likeearly on if you go watch that
(39:51):
I'm like apologizing all thetime for being mean and swearing
at people.
I'm like I'm so sorry Becauseit's just not the type of person
I am.
I don't do that.
I would like to say that I'm anice person, but I think playing
a character that's verydifferent from me was really fun
.
And then getting to put littlepieces of me into it and then I
think the player or the viewersgetting to learn why she was the
(40:14):
way she was was really cool.
And just the episodic, everyepisode, how it turned out, and
like getting to know thecharacters and the relationships
between the characters and justI can see that show going
forever.
We always said you know sevenseasons in a movie.
We got pretty close, but Icould definitely see that that
(40:36):
character progressing and beingpart of something bigger and I
would just love to play heragain.
You know my goth, babe, I justcan't let her go.
And then the other show that Ireally liked and I don't I don't
necessarily think I want morefrom it, but just to be like, my
favorite show that I've everbeen a part of is Missing Annie
(40:59):
Lee.
It is a podcast.
I would highly recommendlooking it up and listening to
it.
They're short, like 45 minute,like episodes there's 10.
It's so you can get throughpretty quickly, but it's just so
well done.
I think the story, the editing,like summer did such a good job
with like the audio and thevideo or the audio editing.
It's audio only and it's justso good.
(41:23):
And even as a cast member likeI don't normally rewatch stuff
that I'm on, but they removestuff, they added things, they
move things that were in onespot to another spot.
It's very similar to ProjectMarana in the sense that like
there's a past and a future andlike you're flashing your back
between them and just so welldone.
I love it.
So I think that there's justthat's like my favorite tabletop
(41:46):
show to be part of.
And then the other one is justmy favorite character that I
would love to play again someday.
Courtney (41:53):
Just sitting here like , OK, I don't think I saw that
second one and now I need to gofind it, because that sounds
really really fun.
Margaret (42:00):
Yeah, it's not on roll for it so, but you can find it
on any place where you pod yourcast.
Courtney (42:06):
Yes, amazing.
Well, thank you for giving mesome listening recommendations.
Margaret (42:12):
You have to tell me what you think.
After you listen to it You'regonna be like oh, that's the
worst one, I'm just kidding.
It is also spoopy, so you, youknow it'll keep you in the
spoopy seasons.
Courtney (42:24):
Amazing.
I guess it is the time for that, isn't it?
Margaret (42:28):
For sure.
Courtney (42:29):
Well, so one thing that I like to talk about in all
of my interviews is the factthat you know we're working in
these industries because we lovethem.
However, it tends to be alittle hard sometimes, and so,
just kind of thinking backthrough, you know just your time
with roll for it, what wouldyou say have been some
(42:51):
challenges that you've had toface?
Margaret (42:53):
Oh, I oddly don't feel like there have been major
challenges, fortunately for rollfor it.
I think that there arechallenges in regards to budget
and ensuring that we can paycast the way that we want.
There was a time where certaincast members were like, hey, I
want to be paid this much, and Iwas like that's great that you
(43:15):
can find somebody who can payyou that much, but we can't
afford that.
So I think budgeting has beenprobably the hardest part for us
personally is because we getpeople who want to be paid a
specific amount and hey, ifyou're worth that, you get what
you're worth, as we totallyunderstand that, but I can't
afford that.
So I got to find somebody whois within our budget and it's
(43:36):
sad to not be able to have theperson you want.
So I think that would be likethe biggest challenge.
Other than that, I think justschedules and finding time that
matches for everybody.
Whenever we have to cancelepisodes because someone's sick
or something emergency happensis always unfortunate,
especially when it's last minutefor our viewers.
(43:57):
I think that that can take amajor hit.
I would say the biggest.
Biggest thing that has happenedand it's not just for us, it's
for probably all contentcreators is the pandemic, and
the beginning of that in 2020was really hard.
We lost two thirds of ourincome from people just stopping
(44:22):
because they couldn't affordtheir own lives, which obviously
is, first and foremost, worryabout yourself.
Don't pay for a Patreon thatyou can't really afford.
So I think that is the hardestthing is and it goes back to
that budget element of it andhaving to try to hustle to get
sponsors in order to affordshows where we normally could
(44:43):
have just afforded them throughour Patreon.
Courtney (44:46):
Yeah, that is a lot to lose, like so quickly.
Margaret (44:51):
Yeah, we went from three shows away to one and that
one is now a three hour showinstead of our normal four hours
.
But we're very open with ourviewers and our community and
it's like, hey, if we have moremoney we can afford more stories
, and if we don't, then we don'tmake as many stories or we make
(45:11):
shorter form stories.
But we're gonna keep doing whatwe can in order to pay the
people that we can for the timethat they're putting in their
talent Because, like I said,some of these people should be
actors and actresses.
They're just so good at whatthey do.
Courtney (45:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Have y'all been able to recoversome of like you lost in the
beginning of COVID?
Margaret (45:34):
Not fully, I wouldn't even say 50%, like we are still.
It's going back up, but notdrastically.
Courtney (45:45):
Got to well.
I really hope that that changessoon, because y'all definitely
deserve to be able to get backup to doing three shows at a
time.
Margaret (45:52):
It would be nice, I think, being able to tell more
stories would be fantastic, butat the same time, you know it is
what it is.
Courtney (46:01):
Well, to flip things around, so I guess same kind of
timeframe of like looking backover your time for Roll 4.
What have been some of yourfavorite parts?
Margaret (46:11):
Ooh, there's so many.
I think a lot of them have torevolve around shows that we've
had.
I think we've had some reallyamazing shows with amazing
characters and amazing casts andI think like for me, that is
always a great feeling is whenyou're done with a show and
they're like can we do anotherseason?
Those are the big moments whereviewers are like really pushing
(46:35):
us to continue shows and notonly pushing us to continue
doing the show, but then show upto watch them.
So I think that those are thehigh moments is when you have
the people enjoying it and thepeople who are creating it or
enjoying it, and you have thisamazing synergy, which doesn't
always happen.
So I would say that those arethe big times that I really,
(46:56):
really enjoy things, and alsothe element of community.
I think we built such awonderful community of people
who love tabletop RPGs, who arehelpful, who teach each other,
who answer questions and arekind to one another.
I think that is a big win.
In my mind, there's a lot ofcommunities out there where it's
not as inviting and caring, andI would say that that is a
(47:21):
challenge that I challengeeveryone to build build the
community that you want to be apart of, and maybe that is
something hateful, but that'snot what I want to be a part of.
I want to be part of somethingthat's like helpful and gets
more people involved in tabletop, and I think seeing some of our
viewers play games together hasbeen really cool too.
(47:44):
Like they've formulatedfriendships and so much that
they are playing a bunch.
And the stories when peopletell us they started playing
because of us, I think are sosweet.
Like they never, ever playedany tabletop RPG games and now
that they've watched us, they'relike playing a ton of them and
they have a weekly group thatthey play with and I think
(48:06):
that's really sweet.
And it goes to show that, likeyou know, people think that it's
like this weird thing, but thenwhen they get to be a part of
it, they're like, oh, this isactually pretty cool.
Courtney (48:20):
Yeah, that is really really special.
Yeah, well, we have touched ona lot of different things, but I
want to make sure that we havetime for if there's any upcoming
projects that we haven't talkedabout, that you're excited
about and allowed to talk about,and I'd love to hear about them
.
Margaret (48:40):
Yeah, we talked a little bit about Project Marana.
I would say, if you're lookingfor something that little spoopy
, some call-a-catholique action,come watch it, but we also have
a whole bunch of stuff on rollfor it.
We played a whole ton ofdifferent types of games, like
even the little obscure ones.
So I would definitely say, comecheck out our channel on
(49:02):
YouTube and find whatever it isthe genre that you're looking
for.
We probably have a show that islike that.
I also made a tabletop RPG gamecalled Witches and Spellcraft,
which you can check out on DriveThrough RPG.
You can get it for free or youcan pay whatever you want.
I'm working on a advancedversion of that that has a lot
(49:24):
more rules.
A lot of the feedback I got andI think even one of the reviews
I got on tabletop RPG was likeoh, the system's really simple,
it should have health and theywanted to add all these things
to it and it's like that's thepoint of the system.
It's supposed to be simple.
I created that system because Ihad a group of girlfriends who
didn't really.
(49:44):
They thought tabletop stuff waskind of stupid or nerdy or
weird and which is probably allthose things which I think is
awesome.
I think they're awesome, notstupid, and so I created a game
because I think they all likewitchy stuff, and so I put this
together.
It's very simple, More like MadLibs and D&D had a baby type of
(50:06):
thing and they loved it.
They had so much fun.
One of them now does tons oftabletop RPGs all the time and
they didn't realize how fun itcould be.
And I think that that's, for me,is.
I just want a simple systemthat anybody who plays table or
who has never ever played before, can easily pick it up and play
together and create a story.
And now I'm working on theadvanced version of that, which
(50:28):
I'm really excited about, whichwill be more like
Warhammer-esque in the sense oflike it's going to have a lot of
a lot more roles, but it willbe fun.
So, yeah, that's kind of whatI'm working on.
And then I also am working onAshes of Creation, which is a
MMORPG.
You can check it out at Ashesof Creation all of the spaces.
(50:49):
So kind of the main projectsI'm working on and then planning
a wedding.
So I don't think I need anymore projects on my plate.
Courtney (51:00):
Yeah, that's totally easy and simple project to plan
for.
Margaret (51:04):
I've actually not.
You know, a lot of people tellme it's going to be stressful,
but I have not been stressed outat all.
The last piece that we have ispicking out our dress and our
tux, and we're doing that on the14th of October, which is going
to be really fun.
My family's flying out and I'mjust, I'm excited, I'm probably
going to cry a bunch, but it'llbe fine, I'm fine.
(51:24):
So it's the last piece and thenyou know it's done for us, and
my friend put this into goodperspective for me.
She's like Margaret, how manyevents have you run in your life
?
How many people are thoseevents for?
I was like, okay, that's fair.
I'm used to running like largeevents for companies, and so a
small wedding is probably whyI'm not that stressed out about
(51:46):
it.
Courtney (51:50):
I'm so excited for y'all, Like we've been Facebook
friends for such a long time andit's just kind of like
following along and it's like,oh, I saw the pictures of your
cake and I'm just like, oh myGod, it looks so pretty.
Margaret (52:01):
Yeah, it's going to be very fun and a lot of happy
tears and just celebrating love.
We're celebrating our 20thanniversary with a wedding
because we want to start havingkids and that's kind of like the
next stage in our lives, andit's less about being married
because in our hearts we'realready there, but you know the
formalities of it in order tomake sure that our kids have the
(52:23):
best life they can Amazing,yeah, and then we teach them to
play some tabletop or VG's yes,Starting young.
Yeah, no, I don't know.
We'll see what they're into,but if they have a semblance of
it, you know I'm going to try.
Courtney (52:42):
If people want to find you to be able to follow all of
your cool projects, whereshould they go?
Margaret (52:48):
Yeah, I'm pretty easy to find.
I'm Margaret Crone in all ofthe places, margaret Crone
everywhere except for TikTok.
I'm Margaret Crone1337 becausesomeone took my name.
We're not using it so I don'tknow.
I can't get it.
So that's how to find me, supereasy.
I have a website too,margaretcronecom.
It's pretty much the same stuff, but, yeah, I post whenever I'm
(53:10):
doing stuff and, like I said,those are kind of the main
projects that I'm working onright now, at the moment and
trying to keep it chill but alsostill do the things that I
really love and enjoying life.
Courtney (53:24):
Amazing.
Yeah, thank you so much forcoming on the show today,
margaret.
This has been really fun.
Margaret (53:30):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Hopefully people aren't boredout of their minds.
Courtney (53:36):
Definitely not, and thank you, listeners, for tuning
in today.
At this point I am going tostop the official interview with
Margaret and then I'm going tostart recording again for a fun
little quick question blitz thatis exclusively for patrons,
which you can find us on Patreonjust that roleplay grow and I'm
going to ask her a series ofquestions.
(53:58):
Summer gaming related summernot, but just a good chance to
get to know a little bit moreabout Margaret outside of the
gaming sphere.
Thank you again for listeningand thank you, margaret.
This has been an absolute treat.
You just finished anotherepisode of roleplay grow.
To check out the show notes andtranscript from today's episode,
(54:18):
you can go tolightheartadventures.
com/rpg.
To keep up with every episode,please subscribe on your podcast
player of choice and if you'reenjoying the show, I would
absolutely love if you wouldleave me a review and share this
episode with your friends.
Your review might even getfeatured on an upcoming episode.
To contact us, you can emailroleplaygrow at gmailcom.
(54:41):
There are a lot of social mediasites out there right now, so
look for roleplaygrow for theshow account and look for either
Ketra or Ketra RPG for myaccounts and Dungeon Glitch for
Matt's accounts.
Lastly, I want to give aspecial shout out to our editor,
sam Atkinson.
Your help is always appreciated.
(55:02):
Sam, thank you all so much forlistening and I'll see you next
time on roleplaygrow.
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