November 12, 2024 • 47 mins
Have you dreamed of becoming a full-time ttrpg designer? That's exactly what today's guest, Chris Craven, did--all with the help of Kickstarter. In today's episode, we dive into his strategies to drop 10 Kickstarter campaigns a year.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Courtney (02:47):
Alright, welcome back, friends! I am here with
the founder of Evil PigeonGaming, Chris Craven.
How's it going, Chris?
Chris (02:55):
Yeah, it's going good.
Thank you so much for having me.
Courtney (02:58):
I know, I'm I'm excited! It looks like you've
got some really interestingprojects that you have done over
the last couple years.
So, excited to get into those,but To just kick things off, can
you tell me a bit about yourselfand how you got into gaming?
Chris (03:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, I was always, I was always anerdy kid, always kind of
daydreaming.
I discovered D& D books in mykind of early teens when 3.
5 Ed was out, and just boughtthe books and read them.
So I just thought they were justreally cool.
Didn't have enough friends toplay.
But read lots of the books andthen kind of started actually
(03:36):
playing in university and justnever looked back.
Courtney (03:41):
Tell me about your very first campaign that you
actually got to play once youhad friends to play with.
Chris (03:46):
It's funny because D& D was actually like the fourth or
fifth TTRPG I actually played.
I think the first was SavageWorlds, or the superhero variant
of it.
And then I played a couple ofWorld of Darkness ones Mage the
Awakening, and some other kindof sundry ones, a couple of
superhero ones.
And then it was randomly, it's alocal card game shop.
(04:09):
Some friends were playing StormKing's Thunder and needed an
extra player and pulled me in.
Courtney (04:15):
I feel like it's so rare for me to find another
person that didn't start with D&D.
Chris (04:22):
I'm glad it's not just me.
Courtney (04:25):
Yeah.
Mine was Malifaux, Through theBreach, which like no one seems
to have heard of, but it's stillone of my favorites, but it's
still fun to be like, Ooh, youdidn't start with D& D.
This is awesome.
Chris (04:37):
think I'm familiar with the models, if I'm thinking
correctly.
They have fantastic models.
Courtney (04:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It started as a miniatures wargame, like a very small version
of Warhammer where you'd have anarmy of like five to 10
characters and Then in 2013,they kickstarted an RPG, and My
husband and I backed it, and Ijust, I love it.
Chris (05:02):
Nice.
Courtney (05:03):
What are you playing right now?
Chris (05:04):
I have two small children, so sadly, the number
of games I'm in has dropped alittle especially as all the
people we played with got jobsand things like that.
I'm currently DMing some D& D,5th Ed with a couple of friends:
all new players, actually.
It's the first, it's three ofthem, it's the first campaign or
(05:24):
TTRPG any of them have played.
Which is nice, I get to bereally lazy and reuse all the
tropes.
Courtney (05:32):
It's funny to go from like, oh yeah, I'm DMing to a
bunch of new people, to yeah, Iget to be lazy.
Chris (05:38):
So, like, they've never seen a mimic or a shambling
mound, it just, everything blowstheir mind.
Courtney (05:43):
That's awesome.
Yeah, one of the groups I'm inis also a whole bunch of new
players and I'm, like, the onlyexperienced player, so it's been
very, like, hmm.
I think we're gonna tag teamteaching you everything.
Especially the one person thatdecided to be a wizard for their
very first TTRPG.
Chris (06:01):
admire the gumption., I was, my first character was a
barbarian, so I was like, yep,let's just be as simple as
possible.
Courtney (06:08):
we tried to convince him, it did not work.
I Would love to transition intojust learning about your journey
from playing all of thesedifferent games and then getting
into D& D and then starting tocreate and publish supplements.
Chris (06:26):
It was kind of on a whim, to be honest, when I first
started, because I've, I'vealways been interested in being
creative and writing, and I'vehad a couple of attempts at
writing novels and Got themfinished, but then nothing ever
really happened with them, andthen it was about three years
(06:47):
ago I saw on Kickstarter.
It was I think Apothecaria byAnna Blackwell.
Fantastic game, by the way.
It's a solo, kind of, potionmaking witchy game.
And when I came across it, whatstruck me is this this is a
person making this.
Not some big company or massiveteam.
(07:10):
This is just one person who didthis.
And while I was on theKickstarter site, I saw the Zine
Month thing coming up, and I waslike, you know what?
I could, I could have a go atthat.
And I put my first one out for atiny target of 500 pounds.
It didn't fund, it got to 350,and I thought to myself, that
(07:32):
was so dumb, I'd have done itfor 50 quid, and in fact I did
just do it afterwards anyway.
I went back to it and didanother project later in the
year and then just kind of hadit as a side hustle for a while
and at the time I was trainingto be a teacher, which is lots
of work and very draining, andI'd had a really bad day kind of
(07:54):
towards the end of the year, andI was like, Oh, I could just
give this all up and write mybooks full time.
And I was like, Could I?
And I went and did some mathsand I was like, Oh yeah, I
actually could.
And made the leap.
Courtney (08:08):
I did not realize you were doing this full time.
Chris (08:12):
Yeah, full, I've been full time for, I want to say 18
months, might be longer.
Time's become meaningless.
Courtney (08:22):
Okay, well, this is exciting because I have so many
questions.
Chris (08:25):
Fantastic.
Courtney (08:26):
So walk me through then, like, how you actually
made that transition.
Did you just stop teaching allof a sudden, or did you kind of
finish out the year?
Chris (08:38):
I don't know how it is over in America.
In England there's, there'sthree school terms and I've,
I've had experience kind oflecturing before.
So the first term was reallyeasy for me because that's where
they're kind of teaching peoplehow to present, which I'd
already done.
The second term was a bitharder, because there was a lot
more work.
And then the third term, the,the workload was just so huge.
(09:01):
I was getting really stressed,and also trying to do, you know,
a second job.
And when I kind of made thedecision that it was just, I
could earn as much as I was as ateacher, doing something a lot
more fun.
Frankly, a lot, a lot less, youknow, demanding on my soul.
I just kind of the next day Iwent in and said, yeah, I'm, I'm
(09:23):
just going to stop.
There's, there's no point, youknow, keeping doing this.
I finished, there was, it's kindof in two parts as becoming a
qualified teacher.
And.
A PGCE so I got the PGCE becauseI just needed to do one more
essay for that.
But yeah, I just went in one dayand said, yeah, I'm, I'm
quitting.
I think eight weeks left of theyear and I was just like, nah,
(09:44):
it's not worth it.
Courtney (09:44):
I mean, that does seem like a big risk.
Chris (09:47):
Yeah with Kickstarter, every project is, oh, maybe this
is the one where no one backsit.
But I'd, in the kind of 12months before the decision, I'd
made about a teacher's salary.
Doing it part time, and Ifigured if I went full time, I'd
be able to kind of expand it.
Courtney (10:05):
Yeah, so just looking through, you know, all of your
created projects list onKickstarter, it seems like your
very first one was cancelled,the second one didn't make it,
but then everything since has
Chris (10:18):
Oh, the cancelled one.
I didn't I didn't realisenaively that you couldn't have
two projects at a time, and so Ilaunched two, one got cancelled
cause you can only have oneyeah, and then yeah, the other
one didn't make it, and then itWent up.
Courtney (10:32):
What did you do differently with, the, Second
slash third one that you, tookaway from your first failed
Kickstarter.
Chris (10:42):
So I think the first thing I did is I, I set the
target much lower.
'cause I was, I was planning towrite it anyway for fun.
So I set it the target's, 50quid.
And just did that.
And that funded for about 600pounds I think.
And then the next one I.
(11:03):
I.
did some Facebook ads, but Idon't think that was the reason.
I think I just got really lucky.
It kind of went a little viral,and the Night Market did about
8,000 pounds.
It was only about 12, 000 at thetime.
And I kind of just hung on tothat, like I got a bunch of them
on my email list and just rodethat wave.
(11:25):
Because fortunately, the nightmarket was very well received by
those backers.
And then I just, they just keptcoming back.
Like when I was going throughthe lists of things to send out
and so on, I'd recognize namestime and time again.
To begin with, I was doing thenormal tiers and then like a
(11:46):
really high end one of havesomething of yours in the book.
And there are a couple of peoplewho did that, like, three
projects on the trot.
Which is incredibly flattering.
Courtney (11:57):
Yeah, I always love that where you just put that
super high end one and you'relike, maybe?
And then you're like, oh mygosh, you just bought the whole
book, basically.
Chris (12:08):
Yeah, and it's also, it means I get to be a little lazy,
because then that's one thing Idon't have to think of because
normally as well, becausethey're coming at it with a
completely fresh brain, they'llgive some absolutely incredible
ideas, right?
I would never have thought ofthat so yeah, it's, it's, it's
lovely being able to collaboratewith my backers and my fans in
(12:31):
that way.
Courtney (12:31):
Okay, so before we dig into processes and stuff,
can you give me an overview ofAll of these different projects
that you have done.
Chris (12:40):
Just a quick run through of what they all are?
Okay, so, the, funnily enough,the, the one that is, that got
cancelled where I had those twoinitial projects and went, One
win, not the other.
The cancelled one is actually,I've come back to it, it's now
the one that I'm funding onKickstarter.
The, let's go through the firstone, was it was Wrath of the
(13:03):
Wild.
It was kind of a, what if druidsdecided to become eco terrorists
and and there was the HalflingFood Festival.
It was a travelling foodfestival run by halflings that
you could just plop into yourgames.
The Night Market (13:17):
Fantasy Midnight Black Markets Flotsam
Fair, another travelling foodfestival.
Show, kind of half above water,half below, with kind of like a
fleet of boats with attractionsand things like that and merfolk
underneath.
The City Attractions Package,just how to spice up your cities
(13:38):
like with zoos or aquariums andother sites of interest.
Undead Unicorn Invasion whichwas kind of an apocalypse in a
box to, you know, Plop Onto YourWorld.
Folio of Familiar Faces, so thatwas a set of NPCs that had
branching, level up options andways to bring them back when
(13:58):
your characters inevitablykilled them.
Codex of Crime, allowing morecrime in your games, three
volumes of Inventory ofImproving Items, which are magic
items that level up.
There's quite a few of them, Ithink there's like 20 in total.
Junkyard at the Edge, huge,like, hexcrawl location in this
kind of junkyard whereeverything that's lost and
(14:19):
forgotten ends up.
Plethora of potential partners,so, NPCs to use as either
romantic or platonic.
Connections for your players.
Tome of Witches, which Iactually think is my favourite.
Witches, well, if you just wantmore witches in your games,
there's a bunch of witch NPCsall stacked up.
Discussions on how to get thatwitch, witch hunter dynamic into
(14:41):
a game that already has magic.
Which is trickier than it firstseems.
A couple of new classes.
What else have I done?
Looking back at my shelfCompendium of Constructs.
That was my first big A4 one,which is all about constructs.
And then a couple of smallerdigital only ones that are like
101 NPCs, 101 shops, that sortof thing.
(15:06):
I think that's it.
Oh, and currently fundingServants of the Mimic Queen,
which is a campaign full ofmimics.
Deep breath.
That was a lot of them.
Courtney (15:18):
so only a few.
And you've done all of this inthe last 18 months?
Chris (15:24):
Not I would say the last three years, I was only full
time the last 18 months and kindof producing physical copies.
Before that, it was justdigital.
Courtney (15:38):
That's a lot to do in three years.
Chris (15:42):
Yeah, I have quite a fast turnaround on making the books
when I Children aside, who lovethem more than life itself, but
they do slow down the creativeprocess.
But when I sit down to do, thestandard kind of length of my
books is about 120 A5 pages,thereabouts.
(16:03):
That's kind of like a four tosix week start to finish writing
for me.
So yeah, I just daydream a lot,so I've got a lot of stuff to
squeeze out of my big head.
Courtney (16:13):
Well, yeah, I'd love to dig into your processes for,
your next project.
like, Where do you tend to pullinspiration from and, just walk
me through all of the steps thatyou take to get ready for
publication.
Chris (16:29):
So, what I tend to do is I'll have a big like, OneNote
drive with lots of pages withmaybe 20 or 30 projects that one
day I'd like to do.
And any time I have an idea forany of them, I just plop it
down.
And when one of those kind ofreaches a critical mass of
ideas, you know, already there,I'm like, There, I'll go, I'll
(16:53):
do you, and I'll, Try and, tryand find some similar books or
films, you know, that cover thesame sort of themes.
So if I was doing a vampire one,I'd go watch Interview with a
Vampire and so on.
And then I, I start by bulletpointing out main areas I want
in the book.
So with The Witches 1, it wouldhave been I want set of witch
(17:17):
NPCs, the new classes, the newspells, the discussion at the
beginning of how to handleWitchcraft some alternate
setting ideas using witchesheavily, and then I expand those
bullet points out, you know,successively to fill the book.
Courtney (17:36):
It's so interesting, like, how varied your content
is.
yeah, I mean, You mentionedearlier that you have a quick
turnaround.
What does that mean to you?
Chris (17:46):
I think for me, it's, I, I just write quite fast.
It's, I don't think any fasterthan anyone else.
Definitely not.
But I just, I'm able to get itdown quite quickly because in
my, prior to teaching, I workedwith an events company, which
had when the events were goingon, they were quite large.
(18:08):
It'd be maybe five people.
five or six thousand people atthem, which meant very intense
bursts of work.
So I got used to being, beingable to kind of do things very
quickly for those deadlines.
So yeah, generally I'll, I'llsit down with my laptop when I'm
doing work and I'll have the,the empty pages kind of ready.
So I'll be like, this page isthis witch the next page is her
(18:33):
background.
And so.
It's I don't have to think aboutthe structure.
I start with the structure, so Ican then just get the ideas
down.
At points, I'll have the wholebook with empty pages, just
going, I know it's gonna be onthis page, I know it's gonna be
on this page, and I think I'd goinsane if I tried to just write
it from an empty document.
Courtney (18:54):
I love organization, so I am all for this, structure.
So what about when it comes tolike layout and art and all that
fun stuff?
Chris (19:05):
So, with the A5 ones, The, there's re, there's less
art with, with an A four book,you need kind of some art to
break up that large, doublespread less.
I personally find lesser an Afive often have, if I have any
art which norm normally I do,it'll be kind of a full page
(19:27):
next to something relevant.
So with tome of Witches, I kindof did something a bit different
and rather than.
Art, I used actual photos ofmodels who were kind of witchy
and layout, I, I, this, this isa bit of a confession, because
everyone I tell this to kind ofwinces and vomits a little in
(19:50):
their mouth.
I write my books in PowerPointand I do all of the layout in
that because it's just reallyeasy to move text boxes around
and I just go, here's a newslide, these are where the text
boxes are, write it.
Courtney (20:04):
Okay, honestly, I think you were the first person
that has told me that PowerPointis how they do their layout.
That's really
Chris (20:11):
I think I might be the only person ever to do it.
Courtney (20:16):
mean, PowerPoint does have a lot of good features to
it.
Chris (20:22):
I, I used to make kind of motion cartoons with it in
secondary school.
I just put all of, I do it frameby frame.
And have it go to next slidewith like a zero second interval
and it just whipped through.
And you can make games with it,it's an incredibly versatile
piece of software.
And I just kind of, I latchedonto it fairly early and never
(20:45):
let go, and now I do everythingin it.
And everyone I tell justclutches their head.
Courtney (20:52):
Okay.
Well, I'm about to get ahead ofmyself here just because like, I
know that you have like actualprint publications.
So are you using PowerPoint forthat layout?
How does that work?
Chris (21:07):
So, you can export as a PDF and what I did is I got the
print kind of template from theprinter I use, which if you're
in the UK it's Mixum.
I'm not paid for it but they areexcellent and I really recommend
them.
And I just kind of put that intoPowerPoint and I have a little
(21:28):
box that goes around the outsidethat's my bleed I know to stay
inside and then I delete all thebleed boxes, export it.
Send it to them, and it works.
It surprises me every time, butit does.
Courtney (21:46):
yeah, so let's actually dig into these print
books a little bit more.
You said that it used to be alldigital, but then you started
doing physical printings.
So that transition.
Chris (22:00):
So, it was the first few I did, because I was teaching at
the same time and kind of stillfinding my feet as a new parent,
with my And Kickstarter wasentirely new to me as well, and
(22:20):
I just did not have the brainspace to work out how to make
printing work.
I was concerned about thefinancial risk of needing to
carry The stock and dealing withall of that, because if a
project funds for 50 quid andyou're just doing digital,
that's fine.
(22:41):
That's fine.
But if it funds at, you know, 50quid and you've got to make some
print copies, then you could belooking at a loss.
And part of The reason I set itso low is I find People are far
more likely to back a projectthat's reached its funding goal,
and that means I reach it prettymuch instantly, and then there's
that less hesitation, and then Iend up actually just funding
(23:04):
better as a result.
But yeah, it was after about ayear I kind of started dipping
to my toe.
I didn't actually do printcopies of what I was funding.
I did over the course of aboutthree Kickstarters, get a
physical copy of our first onethat did really well, The Night
Market.
And so yeah, the idea, I thinkit was over, Sun Dead Unicorn
(23:27):
Invasion, another one, and Photoof Familiar Faces you could sign
up to get.
a copy of the Night Market, andthen I did the printing over the
summer with three Kickstarter'sworth of orders, and that seemed
to go well, so I just carriedon, carried on doing it.
Courtney (23:44):
Yeah, that's really interesting to add on a physical
copy of a different book.
What made you decide to do thatinstead of what was currently
funding?
You
Chris (23:56):
when I because at this point it was still only a year
in I hadn't had enough kind ofvery successful projects to be
to have the confidence in myselfto kind of just go for it, and I
knew the Night Market was a bighit.
because it had done 900 on thefirst one and then a lot of
(24:19):
people have bought it as add onsin subsequent Kickstarters.
So I was fairly, also I had akind of a pre made market with
people who have the digital copyand might want a physical copy
to go with it because Ipersonally, I love a physical
copy of things.
And if backed something I reallyliked as a PDF and then they did
a physical copy, I'd probablytry and pick that up.
(24:42):
So yeah, that was kind of therationale behind that.
Courtney (24:44):
know, that makes sense.
It always helps to have a moreviral product,
Chris (24:48):
Yeah.
Courtney (24:50):
but these days you do offer print versions of what's
currently funding?
Chris (24:55):
Yeah.
So what I'm doing at the momentis kind of doing alternating
doing one that has a print copyand then a smaller one kind of
in between just while I catch upwith the logistics of the
previous one and then go for mynext slightly bigger project.
So, Right now, Servants of theMimic Queen is funding, that's
(25:17):
gonna be a big meaty A4.
And then when that finishes,I'll launch I think it's gonna
be 101 Shops and Items, whichwill be about 50 pages A5,
digital only, for about 2 orsomething like that.
Just to kind of keep themomentum going and keep building
the audience.
Courtney (25:39):
feel like that's really smart, honestly, to just
have those like smaller ones.
Well, yeah, I mean, it just, itmakes sense because logistics of
fulfilling a physical product isso much more of a hassle and so
being able to keep fundingcoming in while you're dealing
with.
Chris (25:56):
because, because that's The thing with Kickstarter, the,
when you, you start your fundingand if it's say 30 days, you're
not going to be seeing any moneyfor minimum seven weeks, like
the four weeks of fun of fundingtime, and then three weeks while
Kickstarter collects the funds,make sure there's no chargebacks
(26:17):
and things like that.
So smoothing out that curve andmaking the income less spiky
across the year is helpful.
Courtney (26:25):
How often are you aiming to launch a new
Kickstarter?
Chris (26:28):
So my plan at the moment is to do about 10 a year with
around about five of those askind of physical products.
With, yeah, those, like justlittle two pound, here's a
hundred things, over 50 pagesbetween them.
That is.
(26:51):
Sometimes a little tricky tokeep up with.
Occasionally I'll be like, okay,I'm going to drop this project
or push this one back.
Because I'm just For the parentsout there, kids just do not
sleep well, and I am half thetime just a zombie.
And some jobs, if you're reallytired, you can still do them.
Like, when I was mailing out allthe books, didn't matter how
(27:13):
tired I was, I could put a bookinside an envelope.
If you're writing, you mightjust have to delete everything
if it's really bad.
So, some days I'm just like, no,today's not a writing day.
I'll just sit and feel bad aboutit.
Courtney (27:27):
I don't have kids, but I do still have those days
where I'm like, I tried to beproductive, but it's just a
wash.
Chris (27:36):
I, maybe the kids have nothing to do with it, maybe I'm
just secretly lazy, and I'm onlynow discovering it, and I'm
using them as the excuse.
Courtney (27:43):
Hey there, great excuse.
Chris (27:45):
Yeah, to the teenagers, that's gonna be my excuse for
everything.
Courtney (27:49):
That's wild, though, to do 10 Kickstarters a year.
Even if you're not doingphysical product for all of
them, that's still just, like,that's impressive.
That's a lot of work.
Chris (28:01):
Yeah! Yeah! Yeah, you're just right.
It's What kind of the hope is,is if It depends how, well they
do.
If one went absolutely massive,I'd be able to slow down for a
bit because I'd know that billswere covered for a while.
I want all of them to be as goodas they can be, so I don't kind
(28:23):
of skimp when one doesn't do aswell, but it just means that
once it's done, I then have togo on to the next one quickly.
Because as well, I'm, I'm a oneman team, so kind of everything.
Courtney (28:38):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, on the one hand, thatkeeps the budget down, but
still, it's so much work.
Chris (28:46):
Yeah, oh my god, what I'd give for a marketing person.
Or just, yeah.
Yeah, a marketing person,really, that would be amazing.
Courtney (28:53):
There's a reason that social media coordinator is a
full time job.
Chris (28:57):
yeah.
I've recently started TikTok,and it's just doing 10 second
videos once a day.
That's a lot of brain space.
Especially to do it well, whichI'm not.
Courtney (29:12):
Hey, entrepreneurs.
I love introducing you to newcreators every episode, but I
could really use your support.
I would love to invite you tojoin our Patreon page, where
you'll gain access to behind thescenes content, add your
questions to upcominginterviews, and you could even
receive a shout out on our sitein an upcoming episode.
To learn more, go tolightheartadventures.
com slash RPG.
(29:34):
And now back to the show.
Okay, wow, I'm still just blownaway by how much work is going
into all of these things.
Do you give yourself breaks?
Do you ever have a time to takea break?
Chris (29:49):
No, I'm, it's, it's always something I've been quite
bad at in I, my dad had anincredibly strong work ethic
Potentially an unhealthy one,but a really strong one, which I
think has rubbed off onto me andI'm really bad at taking breaks.
(30:10):
At some point, there'll beenough books where I can go,
okay, I'm gonna stop writingthem for a while and just market
them and kind of give the braina bit of a rest from constantly
creating.
But on the plus side, it isquite a fun thing.
Like, it's It can be hard work,but it is fun.
(30:32):
You know, I was doing it beforeit started making good money.
I was doing it just for fun inthe evenings.
And when you start a new projectand you've got all those fresh
empty pages and you can justchoose the funnest thing to
write about in the project.
That's, that's nice.
Courtney (30:48):
So yeah, now that you're doing this full time,
what does a typical week looklike for
Chris (30:52):
you?
Love to give you a reallysensible answer here, but it's
so, so changeable with kids,because one of the main reasons,
the reason I wrote this was Leftmy previous job before I started
becoming a trainer to be ateacher is I was having to go
(31:13):
abroad on quite short notice fortech conferences fairly
regularly, which when we'reexpecting a child just wasn't
going to work.
I wanted to be really present,you know, to help my wife and,
as much as I could.
I wanted to be there for thekids and, be a really present
dad.
And so how the kids are and, youknow, how everyone's doing is
(31:37):
very changeful.
So there's not good routine.
If, if the kids are away for abit, as they sometimes go and
visit, like, their gram inLondon, it, it will normally
look like I'll get up, and I'lljust sit, and I'll write, and
I'll write some number of pages.
If I'm doing an A4 one, maybethree pages, and then that's my
(31:59):
brain done for the day.
An A5 one, maybe six.
But it's that every day
Courtney (32:05):
Of course, having a two and a four year old is going
to make having a set routinedifficult.
Chris (32:13):
If they would have the decency to wake up at the same
time every day, ev even if itwas six, if it was consistently
six, I'd get used to it.
But occasionally it'll be seven30 and it'll lull you into a
full sense of security.
Courtney (32:27):
How inconsiderate.
Chris (32:29):
I, I know, I dunno how pg, I dunno how pg the podcast
is, but I, I have some choicewords for when they wake up at
four in the morning.
Courtney (32:39):
Yeah, understandable.
Well, at what age do they startschool in the UK?
Okay.
Chris (32:45):
old, the oldest one has started school and it's
incredible.
it's mainly it's just that extraroutine because now it's a lot
easier to handle one childbecause my wife works from home
as an artist, but is the kind ofprimary childcare.
And when there's two of themaround, I try and come down
(33:05):
every couple of hours to giveher a break and tap in because
they're demons.
Lovely, but very energetic.
But when there's just one, I canthen largely take the entire day
until school pick up.
So yeah, in a couple of yearswhen they're both in school,
chef's kiss.
Excellent.
Courtney (33:25):
So for your physical product, are you fulfilling
those orders yourself?
Chris (33:29):
So until about a month or two ago, I was so I would.
Order two or three to check I'ddone it right and they weren't
upside down or anything, thenI'd do the big order.
Normally about three times whatI'd actually sold, so I'd then
have some for futureKickstarters and for expos and
(33:53):
stuff.
And then, yeah, I'd print outall the labels, I'd stick them
to the envelopes, stuff themall, take them to the post
office.
Made the post office very angry,because occasionally, every
couple of months I'd turn upwith 200 parcels.
But now I've actually found afulfillment company who
approached me which was lovely,and even though I have to pay
(34:15):
them for doing it because theirrates are much better than what
I can get as a person on my own,I end up, it ends up being about
the same and I don't have tospend an entire week stuffing
envelopes.
Courtney (34:27):
That's interesting that they reached out to you.
Chris (34:30):
I think they had, they were, they already did something
to do, it was kind of likesample boxes.
In a slightly differentindustry.
And they were at the UK GamesExpo, drumming up business.
And I was incredibly grateful.
Because, yeah, they came up andI was like, Yes, I would, I
(34:50):
would love someone to do that.
Because I hate it.
And they, they did it andthey've been really good for I
don't know, when I send parcels,I don't know what the postman
do, because the number where, atthe other end, someone will say
excuse me, it's been broken inhalf, can I have another one?
And it's been savaged by wilddogs or something.
(35:12):
And that's not happened withthem, so yeah, they're doing
really good.
Courtney (35:16):
Do they keep inventory, like, at their
warehouse, and do the ordersjust go directly to them now, or
how does that work?
Chris (35:23):
As it was the first time I'd used them, I sent them
everything over for, I think,two Kickstarters that had gone
back to back with just a coupleof spares.
That all went really well.
So, what I'm probably going tolook to doing is moving the
majority of my inventory over tothem.
(35:44):
And then as well, when I get my,some traffic to my online shop,
which is there and I just haveyet to advertise it because I'm
horrible at keeping track ofeverything They'll just handle
all of that, and I'll never haveto send another parcel again.
Courtney (35:58):
That's the dream.
Chris (36:00):
Yeah,
Courtney (36:00):
Oh, this is so cool! Thank you for letting me, like,
nerd out with you on all these,logistics questions.
Because
Chris (36:06):
no, no, I love it.
I was kind of the logistics guyat my previous job so yeah, love
it.
Courtney (36:14):
Yeah, I used to head up fulfillment for a jewelry
company, in their warehouse, andso, anytime that I get to be
like, hmm, so how did you dothis?
Chris (36:22):
Show me your spreadsheets.
Yeah, cannot, cannot beat a goodExcel sheet.
Courtney (36:26):
Cool.
So you mentioned your TikTokearlier and, you know, I was
perusing that and it looks likeyou're trying to do a bunch of
like DM tips, but can you justtell us a little bit about your
channel and what your goals forthat are?
Chris (36:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
So really what I'm trying to dois use it as a way to reach more
people and share the messageabout what I'm doing and, you
know, my stuff.
And I'm still, I'm still in theearly days.
I'm still kind of finding myfeet with what works, but
(37:01):
largely I just, I sit down andI'll just say an idea at the
camera.
So, one that did reasonably wellis, I was like, you can, you can
spice a, a seasoned group ofadventurers, they know, or
players even, if you say, ah,and you describe a Shambling
Mountain, they know exactly whatit is.
So I was like, spice it up, givethem a wolf, but actually it's
(37:24):
got the stat block of a hydra.
And when they think they'vekilled it by chopping its head
off, another wolf head comes outand there's two and that'll,
that'll throw them for a realloop.
I also recently did an interviewwith another TikToker who has
far, far more followers than me,so like 200, 000, Diana of the
Rose, who, so, and I've beenputting clips of that interview
(37:46):
up.
Lovely, by the way, she was, shewas really nice.
I've, I've, I'm two for two onlovely interviewers.
You are the other one, by theway.
Courtney (37:55):
Thank you.
Chris (37:56):
But yeah, just sharing my ideas and thoughts and trying to
reach more people with my stuff.
Courtney (38:01):
How often are you trying to put videos out?
Chris (38:04):
I'm currently aiming for two to three a day but they're,
the beauty of TikTok is they'reand the editing.
Trying to do a, even a YouTubevideo a week would be A hell of
a task but with TikTok, I sitdown on like a Friday morning
(38:26):
when one's in school and one'sat nursery, and I'll record like
20 or 30 videos just back toback, and then just every, every
day I'll go, let's have thatone, upload it, cut off me
taking a breath at the start,put some captions on, and it's
good to go.
Courtney (38:43):
Yeah.
I briefly thought about doingYouTube and was like, hmm.
No, I don't think I want to dothat.
Chris (38:51):
Although, I have, as with YouTube, I've just I've been
putting all the short all theTikToks up as YouTube Shorts.
This is zero effort.
So we'll see how that goes.
But yeah, long long form onYouTube.
God, I don't have I don't havethe editing skill.
Courtney (39:07):
I used to work with some people that would do the
videos for content creation wewere making for the video game
world.
And I was always so impressed.
I was like, man, I took a videoediting class once and I don't
remember much.
Also, technology's changed sincethen.
So.
Chris (39:22):
Yeah, there are just some skills where even if I don't
have it, I understand howsomeone might acquire that
skill.
And video editing is justsorcery to me.
Like, how how do you work outhow to make it look good?
Witchcraft.
Courtney (39:37):
Okay, so, before we run out of time, I love to talk
about challenges, which I knowthat we've kind of Touched on
some briefly already, but justlooking back over the last three
years slash 18 months of fulltime, what are some of the more
like unique challenges that youthink that you've faced?
Chris (39:57):
I think a challenge I'm facing right now is the market
for these sorts of things isbecoming incredibly saturated,
and standing out is quitedifficult.
Plus as well, I mean, cost ofliving crisis, people have a
little less disposable income,so that makes for the extra
(40:18):
competition is quite a challengeto be seen amongst all the other
admittedly fantastic projects.
I think a lot of the challengesI face are quite, common to a
lot of creators of just havingto wear so many different hats
of a web developer, a marketerYeah, and the fact I'm solo
(40:40):
doing it definitely makes it abit harder.
Courtney (40:42):
What Are some of the things that you're trying to do
to help yourself stand out?
I
Chris (40:48):
I'm trying to be a lot more better with my newsletter.
So when I first started, I wasputting out kind of free content
for the newsletter.
When my daughter was born, thattook a bit of a dive off for a
while.
I'm trying to get back into thatand, you know, give them regular
free things.
(41:08):
Get on TikTok and YouTube Shortsto You know, draw in some
audience that way.
I'm also, I had a briefflirtation with Patreon, and I'm
looking to get that going again.
And hopefully with an aim tokind of transitioning to doing
fewer Kickstarters and morestuff on Patreon, so there's
kind of that regular income.
(41:30):
Because to be honest, I mean, ifI wasn't having to have the
stress of putting theKickstarters up and wondering, I
can actually produce morecontent, you know, for a lower
price for everyone.
So yeah, those are the thingsI'm kind of trying to do.
Courtney (41:45):
agree.
I think that Patreon, as long asyou can keep up with, the
monthly production, that it is,More stable, it's less stressful
than having to build anotherKickstarter page and like doing
all of the updates for it.
So I can definitely see how thatwould be a good transition for
sure.
Alright, well, to flip itaround, what have been some of
(42:09):
the more rewarding parts of thisjourney for you?
Chris (42:12):
I think one of the single most rewarding thing probably
two, the first was getting thefirst physical copy of something
I'd done through the post, andactually holding something,
because I'd wanted to be awriter for over a decade, and
suddenly that's what I wasmaking money from, my writing,
(42:32):
and here was the physical proofof it that I held in my hands
and And then the, the otherreally rewarding thing was, I
was at the UK Games Expo I thinkfor my second year, and someone
who had bought The Tome ofWitches the previous year came
back to the table and startedgushing about how wonderful
(42:54):
they'd found it, how, and, itsounds like I'm making this up,
but they said it had transformedtheir game.
And that was, that was really,really cool.
Wonderful to, to hear thatsomeone had, one, I'd, been able
to do something nice, for them,and they'd got something from,
but also that, that kind ofvalidation that what I'd done
(43:14):
was good that was, that wasreally moving.
Courtney (43:18):
That's amazing! Well, as we wind down do you have any
other upcoming projects that youwant to talk about
Chris (43:24):
So, depending on when it the episode airs I think the
thing that will be funding atthe time will be 101 shops and
items, depending on what youended up end up finally calling
it, where there'll be a list of,here's a bunch of different
shops to make your shoppingtrips more interesting.
And each shop will have, an NPCwith a, a bit of a backstory and
(43:50):
a fun item.
So I think there's like John T'sB Emporium.
Where it's just a shop thatsells lots of honey, but also
bee grenades just to kind ofmake shopping trips a little
more interesting.
But the one that's coming upthat I'm very excited about is
going to be in January, which isgoing to be the Player's
Almanac, which the new Player'sHandbook is really good.
(44:13):
But because they've changed howbackgrounds work and things like
that, there aren't a lot ofbackgrounds anymore.
There's, I think, 16 orsomething like that.
And so I'm going to be producinga project that is going to be a
really cool project.
Detailed resource for peoplelooking to make player
characters with a whole load ofideas story a load of new
(44:37):
backgrounds, feats, races Again,what they've done with the
rules, with the new Player'sHandbook, found really good.
But suddenly that means there'sa lot less content to draw from,
and if you're an experiencedplayer, you want that kind of
novelty with your players, andso I'm hoping to give that with
the Player's Almanac in January.
Courtney (44:59):
no, that sounds really interesting.
It has been, I don't know, aweird transition.
I feel like in my group we areOne of my groups were deciding
like, all right, we're going togo ahead and switch in the
middle of our campaign.
But a lot of us are races thataren't there
Chris (45:17):
Mmm.
Courtney (45:17):
that aren't options.
So I feel like just having likea more, a resource like that
will be really helpful forfolks.
Chris (45:25):
That's what I'm, what I'm hoping.
Courtney (45:26):
Yeah.
Amazing.
Okay.
Well, yeah, I'll drop links toThe Kickstarter that should be
funding at the time that thisdrops out in the show notes.
Chris (45:34):
you so much.
Courtney (45:35):
But where else can people find you?
Chris (45:37):
The best place to find me is either on Kickstarter, on my
profile there on Linktree asLinktree slash Evil Pigeon
Games, I think or on itch.
io, which has got all my PDFsfor everything I've done.
And if you sign up to my mailinglist, you get a free book of
(45:58):
Primal Dragons which is like 20or 30 pages with a whole bunch
of new dragons.
Courtney (46:06):
That is quite the email freebie.
Chris (46:08):
I write a lot.
Courtney (46:10):
Thank you so much for coming on.
At this point we're gonna goahead and wrap up the interview
portion.
Gonna stop recording.
And then start recording againto do a fun little quick
question blitz for patrons,where I'm gonna ask you ten
sillier questions and we'regonna go from there.
Chris (46:28):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
Courtney (46:30):
Of course, this has been a real treat.
Alright, welcome back, friends! I am here with
the founder of Evil PigeonGaming, Chris Craven.
How's it going, Chris?
Chris (02:55):
Yeah, it's going good.
Thank you so much for having me.
Courtney (02:58):
I know, I'm I'm excited! It looks like you've
got some really interestingprojects that you have done over
the last couple years.
So, excited to get into those,but To just kick things off, can
you tell me a bit about yourselfand how you got into gaming?
Chris (03:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, I was always, I was always anerdy kid, always kind of
daydreaming.
I discovered D& D books in mykind of early teens when 3.
5 Ed was out, and just boughtthe books and read them.
So I just thought they were justreally cool.
Didn't have enough friends toplay.
But read lots of the books andthen kind of started actually
(03:36):
playing in university and justnever looked back.
Courtney (03:41):
Tell me about your very first campaign that you
actually got to play once youhad friends to play with.
Chris (03:46):
It's funny because D& D was actually like the fourth or
fifth TTRPG I actually played.
I think the first was SavageWorlds, or the superhero variant
of it.
And then I played a couple ofWorld of Darkness ones Mage the
Awakening, and some other kindof sundry ones, a couple of
superhero ones.
And then it was randomly, it's alocal card game shop.
(04:09):
Some friends were playing StormKing's Thunder and needed an
extra player and pulled me in.
Courtney (04:15):
I feel like it's so rare for me to find another
person that didn't start with D&D.
Chris (04:22):
I'm glad it's not just me.
Courtney (04:25):
Yeah.
Mine was Malifaux, Through theBreach, which like no one seems
to have heard of, but it's stillone of my favorites, but it's
still fun to be like, Ooh, youdidn't start with D& D.
This is awesome.
Chris (04:37):
think I'm familiar with the models, if I'm thinking
correctly.
They have fantastic models.
Courtney (04:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It started as a miniatures wargame, like a very small version
of Warhammer where you'd have anarmy of like five to 10
characters and Then in 2013,they kickstarted an RPG, and My
husband and I backed it, and Ijust, I love it.
Chris (05:02):
Nice.
Courtney (05:03):
What are you playing right now?
Chris (05:04):
I have two small children, so sadly, the number
of games I'm in has dropped alittle especially as all the
people we played with got jobsand things like that.
I'm currently DMing some D& D,5th Ed with a couple of friends:
all new players, actually.
It's the first, it's three ofthem, it's the first campaign or
(05:24):
TTRPG any of them have played.
Which is nice, I get to bereally lazy and reuse all the
tropes.
Courtney (05:32):
It's funny to go from like, oh yeah, I'm DMing to a
bunch of new people, to yeah, Iget to be lazy.
Chris (05:38):
So, like, they've never seen a mimic or a shambling
mound, it just, everything blowstheir mind.
Courtney (05:43):
That's awesome.
Yeah, one of the groups I'm inis also a whole bunch of new
players and I'm, like, the onlyexperienced player, so it's been
very, like, hmm.
I think we're gonna tag teamteaching you everything.
Especially the one person thatdecided to be a wizard for their
very first TTRPG.
Chris (06:01):
admire the gumption., I was, my first character was a
barbarian, so I was like, yep,let's just be as simple as
possible.
Courtney (06:08):
we tried to convince him, it did not work.
I Would love to transition intojust learning about your journey
from playing all of thesedifferent games and then getting
into D& D and then starting tocreate and publish supplements.
Chris (06:26):
It was kind of on a whim, to be honest, when I first
started, because I've, I'vealways been interested in being
creative and writing, and I'vehad a couple of attempts at
writing novels and Got themfinished, but then nothing ever
really happened with them, andthen it was about three years
(06:47):
ago I saw on Kickstarter.
It was I think Apothecaria byAnna Blackwell.
Fantastic game, by the way.
It's a solo, kind of, potionmaking witchy game.
And when I came across it, whatstruck me is this this is a
person making this.
Not some big company or massiveteam.
(07:10):
This is just one person who didthis.
And while I was on theKickstarter site, I saw the Zine
Month thing coming up, and I waslike, you know what?
I could, I could have a go atthat.
And I put my first one out for atiny target of 500 pounds.
It didn't fund, it got to 350,and I thought to myself, that
(07:32):
was so dumb, I'd have done itfor 50 quid, and in fact I did
just do it afterwards anyway.
I went back to it and didanother project later in the
year and then just kind of hadit as a side hustle for a while
and at the time I was trainingto be a teacher, which is lots
of work and very draining, andI'd had a really bad day kind of
(07:54):
towards the end of the year, andI was like, Oh, I could just
give this all up and write mybooks full time.
And I was like, Could I?
And I went and did some mathsand I was like, Oh yeah, I
actually could.
And made the leap.
Courtney (08:08):
I did not realize you were doing this full time.
Chris (08:12):
Yeah, full, I've been full time for, I want to say 18
months, might be longer.
Time's become meaningless.
Courtney (08:22):
Okay, well, this is exciting because I have so many
questions.
Chris (08:25):
Fantastic.
Courtney (08:26):
So walk me through then, like, how you actually
made that transition.
Did you just stop teaching allof a sudden, or did you kind of
finish out the year?
Chris (08:38):
I don't know how it is over in America.
In England there's, there'sthree school terms and I've,
I've had experience kind oflecturing before.
So the first term was reallyeasy for me because that's where
they're kind of teaching peoplehow to present, which I'd
already done.
The second term was a bitharder, because there was a lot
more work.
And then the third term, the,the workload was just so huge.
(09:01):
I was getting really stressed,and also trying to do, you know,
a second job.
And when I kind of made thedecision that it was just, I
could earn as much as I was as ateacher, doing something a lot
more fun.
Frankly, a lot, a lot less, youknow, demanding on my soul.
I just kind of the next day Iwent in and said, yeah, I'm, I'm
(09:23):
just going to stop.
There's, there's no point, youknow, keeping doing this.
I finished, there was, it's kindof in two parts as becoming a
qualified teacher.
And.
A PGCE so I got the PGCE becauseI just needed to do one more
essay for that.
But yeah, I just went in one dayand said, yeah, I'm, I'm
quitting.
I think eight weeks left of theyear and I was just like, nah,
(09:44):
it's not worth it.
Courtney (09:44):
I mean, that does seem like a big risk.
Chris (09:47):
Yeah with Kickstarter, every project is, oh, maybe this
is the one where no one backsit.
But I'd, in the kind of 12months before the decision, I'd
made about a teacher's salary.
Doing it part time, and Ifigured if I went full time, I'd
be able to kind of expand it.
Courtney (10:05):
Yeah, so just looking through, you know, all of your
created projects list onKickstarter, it seems like your
very first one was cancelled,the second one didn't make it,
but then everything since has
Chris (10:18):
Oh, the cancelled one.
I didn't I didn't realisenaively that you couldn't have
two projects at a time, and so Ilaunched two, one got cancelled
cause you can only have oneyeah, and then yeah, the other
one didn't make it, and then itWent up.
Courtney (10:32):
What did you do differently with, the, Second
slash third one that you, tookaway from your first failed
Kickstarter.
Chris (10:42):
So I think the first thing I did is I, I set the
target much lower.
'cause I was, I was planning towrite it anyway for fun.
So I set it the target's, 50quid.
And just did that.
And that funded for about 600pounds I think.
And then the next one I.
(11:03):
I.
did some Facebook ads, but Idon't think that was the reason.
I think I just got really lucky.
It kind of went a little viral,and the Night Market did about
8,000 pounds.
It was only about 12, 000 at thetime.
And I kind of just hung on tothat, like I got a bunch of them
on my email list and just rodethat wave.
(11:25):
Because fortunately, the nightmarket was very well received by
those backers.
And then I just, they just keptcoming back.
Like when I was going throughthe lists of things to send out
and so on, I'd recognize namestime and time again.
To begin with, I was doing thenormal tiers and then like a
(11:46):
really high end one of havesomething of yours in the book.
And there are a couple of peoplewho did that, like, three
projects on the trot.
Which is incredibly flattering.
Courtney (11:57):
Yeah, I always love that where you just put that
super high end one and you'relike, maybe?
And then you're like, oh mygosh, you just bought the whole
book, basically.
Chris (12:08):
Yeah, and it's also, it means I get to be a little lazy,
because then that's one thing Idon't have to think of because
normally as well, becausethey're coming at it with a
completely fresh brain, they'llgive some absolutely incredible
ideas, right?
I would never have thought ofthat so yeah, it's, it's, it's
lovely being able to collaboratewith my backers and my fans in
(12:31):
that way.
Courtney (12:31):
Okay, so before we dig into processes and stuff,
can you give me an overview ofAll of these different projects
that you have done.
Chris (12:40):
Just a quick run through of what they all are?
Okay, so, the, funnily enough,the, the one that is, that got
cancelled where I had those twoinitial projects and went, One
win, not the other.
The cancelled one is actually,I've come back to it, it's now
the one that I'm funding onKickstarter.
The, let's go through the firstone, was it was Wrath of the
(13:03):
Wild.
It was kind of a, what if druidsdecided to become eco terrorists
and and there was the HalflingFood Festival.
It was a travelling foodfestival run by halflings that
you could just plop into yourgames.
The Night Market (13:17):
Fantasy Midnight Black Markets Flotsam
Fair, another travelling foodfestival.
Show, kind of half above water,half below, with kind of like a
fleet of boats with attractionsand things like that and merfolk
underneath.
The City Attractions Package,just how to spice up your cities
(13:38):
like with zoos or aquariums andother sites of interest.
Undead Unicorn Invasion whichwas kind of an apocalypse in a
box to, you know, Plop Onto YourWorld.
Folio of Familiar Faces, so thatwas a set of NPCs that had
branching, level up options andways to bring them back when
(13:58):
your characters inevitablykilled them.
Codex of Crime, allowing morecrime in your games, three
volumes of Inventory ofImproving Items, which are magic
items that level up.
There's quite a few of them, Ithink there's like 20 in total.
Junkyard at the Edge, huge,like, hexcrawl location in this
kind of junkyard whereeverything that's lost and
(14:19):
forgotten ends up.
Plethora of potential partners,so, NPCs to use as either
romantic or platonic.
Connections for your players.
Tome of Witches, which Iactually think is my favourite.
Witches, well, if you just wantmore witches in your games,
there's a bunch of witch NPCsall stacked up.
Discussions on how to get thatwitch, witch hunter dynamic into
(14:41):
a game that already has magic.
Which is trickier than it firstseems.
A couple of new classes.
What else have I done?
Looking back at my shelfCompendium of Constructs.
That was my first big A4 one,which is all about constructs.
And then a couple of smallerdigital only ones that are like
101 NPCs, 101 shops, that sortof thing.
(15:06):
I think that's it.
Oh, and currently fundingServants of the Mimic Queen,
which is a campaign full ofmimics.
Deep breath.
That was a lot of them.
Courtney (15:18):
so only a few.
And you've done all of this inthe last 18 months?
Chris (15:24):
Not I would say the last three years, I was only full
time the last 18 months and kindof producing physical copies.
Before that, it was justdigital.
Courtney (15:38):
That's a lot to do in three years.
Chris (15:42):
Yeah, I have quite a fast turnaround on making the books
when I Children aside, who lovethem more than life itself, but
they do slow down the creativeprocess.
But when I sit down to do, thestandard kind of length of my
books is about 120 A5 pages,thereabouts.
(16:03):
That's kind of like a four tosix week start to finish writing
for me.
So yeah, I just daydream a lot,so I've got a lot of stuff to
squeeze out of my big head.
Courtney (16:13):
Well, yeah, I'd love to dig into your processes for,
your next project.
like, Where do you tend to pullinspiration from and, just walk
me through all of the steps thatyou take to get ready for
publication.
Chris (16:29):
So, what I tend to do is I'll have a big like, OneNote
drive with lots of pages withmaybe 20 or 30 projects that one
day I'd like to do.
And any time I have an idea forany of them, I just plop it
down.
And when one of those kind ofreaches a critical mass of
ideas, you know, already there,I'm like, There, I'll go, I'll
(16:53):
do you, and I'll, Try and, tryand find some similar books or
films, you know, that cover thesame sort of themes.
So if I was doing a vampire one,I'd go watch Interview with a
Vampire and so on.
And then I, I start by bulletpointing out main areas I want
in the book.
So with The Witches 1, it wouldhave been I want set of witch
(17:17):
NPCs, the new classes, the newspells, the discussion at the
beginning of how to handleWitchcraft some alternate
setting ideas using witchesheavily, and then I expand those
bullet points out, you know,successively to fill the book.
Courtney (17:36):
It's so interesting, like, how varied your content
is.
yeah, I mean, You mentionedearlier that you have a quick
turnaround.
What does that mean to you?
Chris (17:46):
I think for me, it's, I, I just write quite fast.
It's, I don't think any fasterthan anyone else.
Definitely not.
But I just, I'm able to get itdown quite quickly because in
my, prior to teaching, I workedwith an events company, which
had when the events were goingon, they were quite large.
(18:08):
It'd be maybe five people.
five or six thousand people atthem, which meant very intense
bursts of work.
So I got used to being, beingable to kind of do things very
quickly for those deadlines.
So yeah, generally I'll, I'llsit down with my laptop when I'm
doing work and I'll have the,the empty pages kind of ready.
So I'll be like, this page isthis witch the next page is her
(18:33):
background.
And so.
It's I don't have to think aboutthe structure.
I start with the structure, so Ican then just get the ideas
down.
At points, I'll have the wholebook with empty pages, just
going, I know it's gonna be onthis page, I know it's gonna be
on this page, and I think I'd goinsane if I tried to just write
it from an empty document.
Courtney (18:54):
I love organization, so I am all for this, structure.
So what about when it comes tolike layout and art and all that
fun stuff?
Chris (19:05):
So, with the A5 ones, The, there's re, there's less
art with, with an A four book,you need kind of some art to
break up that large, doublespread less.
I personally find lesser an Afive often have, if I have any
art which norm normally I do,it'll be kind of a full page
(19:27):
next to something relevant.
So with tome of Witches, I kindof did something a bit different
and rather than.
Art, I used actual photos ofmodels who were kind of witchy
and layout, I, I, this, this isa bit of a confession, because
everyone I tell this to kind ofwinces and vomits a little in
(19:50):
their mouth.
I write my books in PowerPointand I do all of the layout in
that because it's just reallyeasy to move text boxes around
and I just go, here's a newslide, these are where the text
boxes are, write it.
Courtney (20:04):
Okay, honestly, I think you were the first person
that has told me that PowerPointis how they do their layout.
That's really
Chris (20:11):
I think I might be the only person ever to do it.
Courtney (20:16):
mean, PowerPoint does have a lot of good features to
it.
Chris (20:22):
I, I used to make kind of motion cartoons with it in
secondary school.
I just put all of, I do it frameby frame.
And have it go to next slidewith like a zero second interval
and it just whipped through.
And you can make games with it,it's an incredibly versatile
piece of software.
And I just kind of, I latchedonto it fairly early and never
(20:45):
let go, and now I do everythingin it.
And everyone I tell justclutches their head.
Courtney (20:52):
Okay.
Well, I'm about to get ahead ofmyself here just because like, I
know that you have like actualprint publications.
So are you using PowerPoint forthat layout?
How does that work?
Chris (21:07):
So, you can export as a PDF and what I did is I got the
print kind of template from theprinter I use, which if you're
in the UK it's Mixum.
I'm not paid for it but they areexcellent and I really recommend
them.
And I just kind of put that intoPowerPoint and I have a little
(21:28):
box that goes around the outsidethat's my bleed I know to stay
inside and then I delete all thebleed boxes, export it.
Send it to them, and it works.
It surprises me every time, butit does.
Courtney (21:46):
yeah, so let's actually dig into these print
books a little bit more.
You said that it used to be alldigital, but then you started
doing physical printings.
So that transition.
Chris (22:00):
So, it was the first few I did, because I was teaching at
the same time and kind of stillfinding my feet as a new parent,
with my And Kickstarter wasentirely new to me as well, and
(22:20):
I just did not have the brainspace to work out how to make
printing work.
I was concerned about thefinancial risk of needing to
carry The stock and dealing withall of that, because if a
project funds for 50 quid andyou're just doing digital,
that's fine.
(22:41):
That's fine.
But if it funds at, you know, 50quid and you've got to make some
print copies, then you could belooking at a loss.
And part of The reason I set itso low is I find People are far
more likely to back a projectthat's reached its funding goal,
and that means I reach it prettymuch instantly, and then there's
that less hesitation, and then Iend up actually just funding
(23:04):
better as a result.
But yeah, it was after about ayear I kind of started dipping
to my toe.
I didn't actually do printcopies of what I was funding.
I did over the course of aboutthree Kickstarters, get a
physical copy of our first onethat did really well, The Night
Market.
And so yeah, the idea, I thinkit was over, Sun Dead Unicorn
(23:27):
Invasion, another one, and Photoof Familiar Faces you could sign
up to get.
a copy of the Night Market, andthen I did the printing over the
summer with three Kickstarter'sworth of orders, and that seemed
to go well, so I just carriedon, carried on doing it.
Courtney (23:44):
Yeah, that's really interesting to add on a physical
copy of a different book.
What made you decide to do thatinstead of what was currently
funding?
You
Chris (23:56):
when I because at this point it was still only a year
in I hadn't had enough kind ofvery successful projects to be
to have the confidence in myselfto kind of just go for it, and I
knew the Night Market was a bighit.
because it had done 900 on thefirst one and then a lot of
(24:19):
people have bought it as add onsin subsequent Kickstarters.
So I was fairly, also I had akind of a pre made market with
people who have the digital copyand might want a physical copy
to go with it because Ipersonally, I love a physical
copy of things.
And if backed something I reallyliked as a PDF and then they did
a physical copy, I'd probablytry and pick that up.
(24:42):
So yeah, that was kind of therationale behind that.
Courtney (24:44):
know, that makes sense.
It always helps to have a moreviral product,
Chris (24:48):
Yeah.
Courtney (24:50):
but these days you do offer print versions of what's
currently funding?
Chris (24:55):
Yeah.
So what I'm doing at the momentis kind of doing alternating
doing one that has a print copyand then a smaller one kind of
in between just while I catch upwith the logistics of the
previous one and then go for mynext slightly bigger project.
So, Right now, Servants of theMimic Queen is funding, that's
(25:17):
gonna be a big meaty A4.
And then when that finishes,I'll launch I think it's gonna
be 101 Shops and Items, whichwill be about 50 pages A5,
digital only, for about 2 orsomething like that.
Just to kind of keep themomentum going and keep building
the audience.
Courtney (25:39):
feel like that's really smart, honestly, to just
have those like smaller ones.
Well, yeah, I mean, it just, itmakes sense because logistics of
fulfilling a physical product isso much more of a hassle and so
being able to keep fundingcoming in while you're dealing
with.
Chris (25:56):
because, because that's The thing with Kickstarter, the,
when you, you start your fundingand if it's say 30 days, you're
not going to be seeing any moneyfor minimum seven weeks, like
the four weeks of fun of fundingtime, and then three weeks while
Kickstarter collects the funds,make sure there's no chargebacks
(26:17):
and things like that.
So smoothing out that curve andmaking the income less spiky
across the year is helpful.
Courtney (26:25):
How often are you aiming to launch a new
Kickstarter?
Chris (26:28):
So my plan at the moment is to do about 10 a year with
around about five of those askind of physical products.
With, yeah, those, like justlittle two pound, here's a
hundred things, over 50 pagesbetween them.
That is.
(26:51):
Sometimes a little tricky tokeep up with.
Occasionally I'll be like, okay,I'm going to drop this project
or push this one back.
Because I'm just For the parentsout there, kids just do not
sleep well, and I am half thetime just a zombie.
And some jobs, if you're reallytired, you can still do them.
Like, when I was mailing out allthe books, didn't matter how
(27:13):
tired I was, I could put a bookinside an envelope.
If you're writing, you mightjust have to delete everything
if it's really bad.
So, some days I'm just like, no,today's not a writing day.
I'll just sit and feel bad aboutit.
Courtney (27:27):
I don't have kids, but I do still have those days
where I'm like, I tried to beproductive, but it's just a
wash.
Chris (27:36):
I, maybe the kids have nothing to do with it, maybe I'm
just secretly lazy, and I'm onlynow discovering it, and I'm
using them as the excuse.
Courtney (27:43):
Hey there, great excuse.
Chris (27:45):
Yeah, to the teenagers, that's gonna be my excuse for
everything.
Courtney (27:49):
That's wild, though, to do 10 Kickstarters a year.
Even if you're not doingphysical product for all of
them, that's still just, like,that's impressive.
That's a lot of work.
Chris (28:01):
Yeah! Yeah! Yeah, you're just right.
It's What kind of the hope is,is if It depends how, well they
do.
If one went absolutely massive,I'd be able to slow down for a
bit because I'd know that billswere covered for a while.
I want all of them to be as goodas they can be, so I don't kind
(28:23):
of skimp when one doesn't do aswell, but it just means that
once it's done, I then have togo on to the next one quickly.
Because as well, I'm, I'm a oneman team, so kind of everything.
Courtney (28:38):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, on the one hand, thatkeeps the budget down, but
still, it's so much work.
Chris (28:46):
Yeah, oh my god, what I'd give for a marketing person.
Or just, yeah.
Yeah, a marketing person,really, that would be amazing.
Courtney (28:53):
There's a reason that social media coordinator is a
full time job.
Chris (28:57):
yeah.
I've recently started TikTok,and it's just doing 10 second
videos once a day.
That's a lot of brain space.
Especially to do it well, whichI'm not.
Courtney (29:12):
Hey, entrepreneurs.
I love introducing you to newcreators every episode, but I
could really use your support.
I would love to invite you tojoin our Patreon page, where
you'll gain access to behind thescenes content, add your
questions to upcominginterviews, and you could even
receive a shout out on our sitein an upcoming episode.
To learn more, go tolightheartadventures.
com slash RPG.
(29:34):
And now back to the show.
Okay, wow, I'm still just blownaway by how much work is going
into all of these things.
Do you give yourself breaks?
Do you ever have a time to takea break?
Chris (29:49):
No, I'm, it's, it's always something I've been quite
bad at in I, my dad had anincredibly strong work ethic
Potentially an unhealthy one,but a really strong one, which I
think has rubbed off onto me andI'm really bad at taking breaks.
(30:10):
At some point, there'll beenough books where I can go,
okay, I'm gonna stop writingthem for a while and just market
them and kind of give the braina bit of a rest from constantly
creating.
But on the plus side, it isquite a fun thing.
Like, it's It can be hard work,but it is fun.
(30:32):
You know, I was doing it beforeit started making good money.
I was doing it just for fun inthe evenings.
And when you start a new projectand you've got all those fresh
empty pages and you can justchoose the funnest thing to
write about in the project.
That's, that's nice.
Courtney (30:48):
So yeah, now that you're doing this full time,
what does a typical week looklike for
Chris (30:52):
you?
Love to give you a reallysensible answer here, but it's
so, so changeable with kids,because one of the main reasons,
the reason I wrote this was Leftmy previous job before I started
becoming a trainer to be ateacher is I was having to go
(31:13):
abroad on quite short notice fortech conferences fairly
regularly, which when we'reexpecting a child just wasn't
going to work.
I wanted to be really present,you know, to help my wife and,
as much as I could.
I wanted to be there for thekids and, be a really present
dad.
And so how the kids are and, youknow, how everyone's doing is
(31:37):
very changeful.
So there's not good routine.
If, if the kids are away for abit, as they sometimes go and
visit, like, their gram inLondon, it, it will normally
look like I'll get up, and I'lljust sit, and I'll write, and
I'll write some number of pages.
If I'm doing an A4 one, maybethree pages, and then that's my
(31:59):
brain done for the day.
An A5 one, maybe six.
But it's that every day
Courtney (32:05):
Of course, having a two and a four year old is going
to make having a set routinedifficult.
Chris (32:13):
If they would have the decency to wake up at the same
time every day, ev even if itwas six, if it was consistently
six, I'd get used to it.
But occasionally it'll be seven30 and it'll lull you into a
full sense of security.
Courtney (32:27):
How inconsiderate.
Chris (32:29):
I, I know, I dunno how pg, I dunno how pg the podcast
is, but I, I have some choicewords for when they wake up at
four in the morning.
Courtney (32:39):
Yeah, understandable.
Well, at what age do they startschool in the UK?
Okay.
Chris (32:45):
old, the oldest one has started school and it's
incredible.
it's mainly it's just that extraroutine because now it's a lot
easier to handle one childbecause my wife works from home
as an artist, but is the kind ofprimary childcare.
And when there's two of themaround, I try and come down
(33:05):
every couple of hours to giveher a break and tap in because
they're demons.
Lovely, but very energetic.
But when there's just one, I canthen largely take the entire day
until school pick up.
So yeah, in a couple of yearswhen they're both in school,
chef's kiss.
Excellent.
Courtney (33:25):
So for your physical product, are you fulfilling
those orders yourself?
Chris (33:29):
So until about a month or two ago, I was so I would.
Order two or three to check I'ddone it right and they weren't
upside down or anything, thenI'd do the big order.
Normally about three times whatI'd actually sold, so I'd then
have some for futureKickstarters and for expos and
(33:53):
stuff.
And then, yeah, I'd print outall the labels, I'd stick them
to the envelopes, stuff themall, take them to the post
office.
Made the post office very angry,because occasionally, every
couple of months I'd turn upwith 200 parcels.
But now I've actually found afulfillment company who
approached me which was lovely,and even though I have to pay
(34:15):
them for doing it because theirrates are much better than what
I can get as a person on my own,I end up, it ends up being about
the same and I don't have tospend an entire week stuffing
envelopes.
Courtney (34:27):
That's interesting that they reached out to you.
Chris (34:30):
I think they had, they were, they already did something
to do, it was kind of likesample boxes.
In a slightly differentindustry.
And they were at the UK GamesExpo, drumming up business.
And I was incredibly grateful.
Because, yeah, they came up andI was like, Yes, I would, I
(34:50):
would love someone to do that.
Because I hate it.
And they, they did it andthey've been really good for I
don't know, when I send parcels,I don't know what the postman
do, because the number where, atthe other end, someone will say
excuse me, it's been broken inhalf, can I have another one?
And it's been savaged by wilddogs or something.
(35:12):
And that's not happened withthem, so yeah, they're doing
really good.
Courtney (35:16):
Do they keep inventory, like, at their
warehouse, and do the ordersjust go directly to them now, or
how does that work?
Chris (35:23):
As it was the first time I'd used them, I sent them
everything over for, I think,two Kickstarters that had gone
back to back with just a coupleof spares.
That all went really well.
So, what I'm probably going tolook to doing is moving the
majority of my inventory over tothem.
(35:44):
And then as well, when I get my,some traffic to my online shop,
which is there and I just haveyet to advertise it because I'm
horrible at keeping track ofeverything They'll just handle
all of that, and I'll never haveto send another parcel again.
Courtney (35:58):
That's the dream.
Chris (36:00):
Yeah,
Courtney (36:00):
Oh, this is so cool! Thank you for letting me, like,
nerd out with you on all these,logistics questions.
Because
Chris (36:06):
no, no, I love it.
I was kind of the logistics guyat my previous job so yeah, love
it.
Courtney (36:14):
Yeah, I used to head up fulfillment for a jewelry
company, in their warehouse, andso, anytime that I get to be
like, hmm, so how did you dothis?
Chris (36:22):
Show me your spreadsheets.
Yeah, cannot, cannot beat a goodExcel sheet.
Courtney (36:26):
Cool.
So you mentioned your TikTokearlier and, you know, I was
perusing that and it looks likeyou're trying to do a bunch of
like DM tips, but can you justtell us a little bit about your
channel and what your goals forthat are?
Chris (36:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
So really what I'm trying to dois use it as a way to reach more
people and share the messageabout what I'm doing and, you
know, my stuff.
And I'm still, I'm still in theearly days.
I'm still kind of finding myfeet with what works, but
(37:01):
largely I just, I sit down andI'll just say an idea at the
camera.
So, one that did reasonably wellis, I was like, you can, you can
spice a, a seasoned group ofadventurers, they know, or
players even, if you say, ah,and you describe a Shambling
Mountain, they know exactly whatit is.
So I was like, spice it up, givethem a wolf, but actually it's
(37:24):
got the stat block of a hydra.
And when they think they'vekilled it by chopping its head
off, another wolf head comes outand there's two and that'll,
that'll throw them for a realloop.
I also recently did an interviewwith another TikToker who has
far, far more followers than me,so like 200, 000, Diana of the
Rose, who, so, and I've beenputting clips of that interview
(37:46):
up.
Lovely, by the way, she was, shewas really nice.
I've, I've, I'm two for two onlovely interviewers.
You are the other one, by theway.
Courtney (37:55):
Thank you.
Chris (37:56):
But yeah, just sharing my ideas and thoughts and trying to
reach more people with my stuff.
Courtney (38:01):
How often are you trying to put videos out?
Chris (38:04):
I'm currently aiming for two to three a day but they're,
the beauty of TikTok is they'reand the editing.
Trying to do a, even a YouTubevideo a week would be A hell of
a task but with TikTok, I sitdown on like a Friday morning
(38:26):
when one's in school and one'sat nursery, and I'll record like
20 or 30 videos just back toback, and then just every, every
day I'll go, let's have thatone, upload it, cut off me
taking a breath at the start,put some captions on, and it's
good to go.
Courtney (38:43):
Yeah.
I briefly thought about doingYouTube and was like, hmm.
No, I don't think I want to dothat.
Chris (38:51):
Although, I have, as with YouTube, I've just I've been
putting all the short all theTikToks up as YouTube Shorts.
This is zero effort.
So we'll see how that goes.
But yeah, long long form onYouTube.
God, I don't have I don't havethe editing skill.
Courtney (39:07):
I used to work with some people that would do the
videos for content creation wewere making for the video game
world.
And I was always so impressed.
I was like, man, I took a videoediting class once and I don't
remember much.
Also, technology's changed sincethen.
So.
Chris (39:22):
Yeah, there are just some skills where even if I don't
have it, I understand howsomeone might acquire that
skill.
And video editing is justsorcery to me.
Like, how how do you work outhow to make it look good?
Witchcraft.
Courtney (39:37):
Okay, so, before we run out of time, I love to talk
about challenges, which I knowthat we've kind of Touched on
some briefly already, but justlooking back over the last three
years slash 18 months of fulltime, what are some of the more
like unique challenges that youthink that you've faced?
Chris (39:57):
I think a challenge I'm facing right now is the market
for these sorts of things isbecoming incredibly saturated,
and standing out is quitedifficult.
Plus as well, I mean, cost ofliving crisis, people have a
little less disposable income,so that makes for the extra
(40:18):
competition is quite a challengeto be seen amongst all the other
admittedly fantastic projects.
I think a lot of the challengesI face are quite, common to a
lot of creators of just havingto wear so many different hats
of a web developer, a marketerYeah, and the fact I'm solo
(40:40):
doing it definitely makes it abit harder.
Courtney (40:42):
What Are some of the things that you're trying to do
to help yourself stand out?
I
Chris (40:48):
I'm trying to be a lot more better with my newsletter.
So when I first started, I wasputting out kind of free content
for the newsletter.
When my daughter was born, thattook a bit of a dive off for a
while.
I'm trying to get back into thatand, you know, give them regular
free things.
(41:08):
Get on TikTok and YouTube Shortsto You know, draw in some
audience that way.
I'm also, I had a briefflirtation with Patreon, and I'm
looking to get that going again.
And hopefully with an aim tokind of transitioning to doing
fewer Kickstarters and morestuff on Patreon, so there's
kind of that regular income.
(41:30):
Because to be honest, I mean, ifI wasn't having to have the
stress of putting theKickstarters up and wondering, I
can actually produce morecontent, you know, for a lower
price for everyone.
So yeah, those are the thingsI'm kind of trying to do.
Courtney (41:45):
agree.
I think that Patreon, as long asyou can keep up with, the
monthly production, that it is,More stable, it's less stressful
than having to build anotherKickstarter page and like doing
all of the updates for it.
So I can definitely see how thatwould be a good transition for
sure.
Alright, well, to flip itaround, what have been some of
(42:09):
the more rewarding parts of thisjourney for you?
Chris (42:12):
I think one of the single most rewarding thing probably
two, the first was getting thefirst physical copy of something
I'd done through the post, andactually holding something,
because I'd wanted to be awriter for over a decade, and
suddenly that's what I wasmaking money from, my writing,
(42:32):
and here was the physical proofof it that I held in my hands
and And then the, the otherreally rewarding thing was, I
was at the UK Games Expo I thinkfor my second year, and someone
who had bought The Tome ofWitches the previous year came
back to the table and startedgushing about how wonderful
(42:54):
they'd found it, how, and, itsounds like I'm making this up,
but they said it had transformedtheir game.
And that was, that was really,really cool.
Wonderful to, to hear thatsomeone had, one, I'd, been able
to do something nice, for them,and they'd got something from,
but also that, that kind ofvalidation that what I'd done
(43:14):
was good that was, that wasreally moving.
Courtney (43:18):
That's amazing! Well, as we wind down do you have any
other upcoming projects that youwant to talk about
Chris (43:24):
So, depending on when it the episode airs I think the
thing that will be funding atthe time will be 101 shops and
items, depending on what youended up end up finally calling
it, where there'll be a list of,here's a bunch of different
shops to make your shoppingtrips more interesting.
And each shop will have, an NPCwith a, a bit of a backstory and
(43:50):
a fun item.
So I think there's like John T'sB Emporium.
Where it's just a shop thatsells lots of honey, but also
bee grenades just to kind ofmake shopping trips a little
more interesting.
But the one that's coming upthat I'm very excited about is
going to be in January, which isgoing to be the Player's
Almanac, which the new Player'sHandbook is really good.
(44:13):
But because they've changed howbackgrounds work and things like
that, there aren't a lot ofbackgrounds anymore.
There's, I think, 16 orsomething like that.
And so I'm going to be producinga project that is going to be a
really cool project.
Detailed resource for peoplelooking to make player
characters with a whole load ofideas story a load of new
(44:37):
backgrounds, feats, races Again,what they've done with the
rules, with the new Player'sHandbook, found really good.
But suddenly that means there'sa lot less content to draw from,
and if you're an experiencedplayer, you want that kind of
novelty with your players, andso I'm hoping to give that with
the Player's Almanac in January.
Courtney (44:59):
no, that sounds really interesting.
It has been, I don't know, aweird transition.
I feel like in my group we areOne of my groups were deciding
like, all right, we're going togo ahead and switch in the
middle of our campaign.
But a lot of us are races thataren't there
Chris (45:17):
Mmm.
Courtney (45:17):
that aren't options.
So I feel like just having likea more, a resource like that
will be really helpful forfolks.
Chris (45:25):
That's what I'm, what I'm hoping.
Courtney (45:26):
Yeah.
Amazing.
Okay.
Well, yeah, I'll drop links toThe Kickstarter that should be
funding at the time that thisdrops out in the show notes.
Chris (45:34):
you so much.
Courtney (45:35):
But where else can people find you?
Chris (45:37):
The best place to find me is either on Kickstarter, on my
profile there on Linktree asLinktree slash Evil Pigeon
Games, I think or on itch.
io, which has got all my PDFsfor everything I've done.
And if you sign up to my mailinglist, you get a free book of
(45:58):
Primal Dragons which is like 20or 30 pages with a whole bunch
of new dragons.
Courtney (46:06):
That is quite the email freebie.
Chris (46:08):
I write a lot.
Courtney (46:10):
Thank you so much for coming on.
At this point we're gonna goahead and wrap up the interview
portion.
Gonna stop recording.
And then start recording againto do a fun little quick
question blitz for patrons,where I'm gonna ask you ten
sillier questions and we'regonna go from there.
Chris (46:28):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
Courtney (46:30):
Of course, this has been a real treat.
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