September 8, 2025 • 37 mins
Embark on a magical journey through gaming history as we explore Talisman, the fantasy board game that's kept players rolling dice and chanting "Toad! Toad! Toad!" for over four decades.
Whether you're a veteran who spent nights battling friends for the Crown of Command or a newcomer curious about this legendary game, join us for a deep dive into a magical quest that refuses to take itself too seriously—reminding us that even if you get turned into a toad, you'll have a brilliant time getting there.
Contact us at:
EMAIL: roll.to.save.pod@gmail.com
FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/rolltosavepod
WEBSITE: https://rolltosave.blog
HOSTS: Iain Wilson, Steve McGarrity, Jason Downey
BACKGROUND MUSIC: David Renada (Find him at: davidrendamusic@gmail.com or on his web page).
TITLE, BREAK & CLOSEOUT MUSIC: Xylo-Ziko (Find them on their web page).
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Iain (00:08):
Welcome to Roll2Save the RPG history podcast, talisman.
Hello, and welcome to anotherepisode of Roll to Save the RPG
(00:42):
history podcast that has arelease schedule that has RPG,
but definitely RPG adjacent, anda game that probably introduces
many people to fantasy gaming,as Fighting Fantasy did.
I'm talking, of course, aboutTalisman, the magical quest game
.
Now, I know what you'rethinking.
Hang on, isn't this supposed toall be about RPGs?
Well, yes, but we've done awhole scattershot of episodes
(01:05):
before.
So come on, consistency is notour strong point.
Talisman also occupies thatfascinating space between board
games and role-playing games.
It's got character progressionand it's got that addictive.
Just one more ton quality thatkept some of us up until five in
the morning.
More on that later.
Kept some of us up until 5 inthe morning, more on that later.
(01:28):
Talisman has actually beenaround for over 40 years,
putting its conception right atthe beginning of the RPG craze.
It's had more resurrectionsthan Freddy Krueger and Jason
Voorhees combined, and it'ssurvived company takeovers,
system rewrites and a decadewhere it basically didn't exist.
Yet somehow people still playit and it keeps coming back.
So grab your dice, pick yourfavourite character or, if
(01:51):
you're like my gaming group, getone dealt to you at random,
because otherwise everyone isjust going to fight over who
gets to be the prophetess.
And let's dive into the historyof what might be the most
enduring simple fantasy boardgame ever made.
(02:14):
So the story of Talisman kicksoff in the early 1980s at St
Andrews University in Scotland.
This is where a young mancalled Bob Harris and his future
wife Debbie had the brilliantidea of clubbing together their
student money to buy somethingcalled Dungeons and Dragons.
Now, harris himself wassomewhat resident about this
(02:37):
idea.
When first hearing about D&D,his remark was so you pretend
you're wandering around a tunneland you draw a map of it.
But they gave it a go anyway,ended up playing it for an
entire weekend, barely stoppingto eat or sleep, watching
character after character gethorribly murdered, only to roll
up new ones and dive straightback in.
(02:58):
What was interesting about Bob,though, was, while his mates
were busy drawing up elaboratedungeons and writing epic
storylines for the future, hehad a different idea brewing.
He liked all the excitement andcharacter development that came
along with Dungeons and Dragons, but he wanted to play a game
where you could have all of thatwithout all that faff of
(03:19):
preparing scenarios and runninggames Now floating around in the
back of his head was a game hedesigned while still at school
called Erectocracy.
Yes, that is as wonderfullyabsurd as it sounds.
Players took on the roles ofdifferent teachers in a British
secondary school, moving aroundthe board, trying to work their
(03:40):
way up to becoming theheadmaster.
Now, this is actually crucial tounderstanding Talisman, because
the early 80s had seen a fewattempts at creating board games
that captured some of that RPGmagic.
You had things like theSorcerer's Cave and the Mystic
Wood, trying to bridge that gapbetween traditional board games
and this new role-playing thing.
(04:01):
These games laid somegroundwork, but they were
missing something crucial.
The Sorcerer's Cave was a lotof fun.
You got a party together andyou explored a dungeon, but it
suffered from having no realobjective other than who can get
the most treasure at the end.
And Mystic Wood, well, it hadcharacter progression, but it
was almost entirely luck-based.
(04:21):
Either you rolled well on theencounter table, you killed a
monster, or you didn't, and youdidn't get the bonuses.
Some of Mystic Wood's DNA mayhave made its way into Talisman.
I remember looking at Talismanwhen I first got it and seeing
some similarities.
In Talisman, characters had twoattributes strength and craft
Mystic Wood.
(04:42):
They had two characteristicsstrength and prowess.
Also, some of the locationsthings like caves, chapels,
castles they all seemed familiarto players of Mystic Wood.
But unlike Talisman, mysticWood had no real concept of
acquiring gold items and spellsin any meaningful way to
progress your character.
(05:02):
So, all that aside, harris setaround creating something
different.
His characters would beinteresting as RPG characters
because they would each havetheir own special abilities and
moral alignments good, evil orneutral.
They'd have strength forphysical prowess and craft for
mental and spiritual faculties.
The board would be like afantasy landscape where you'd
(05:25):
have encounters by drawing cardsand, crucially, your characters
would actually progress.
They'd acquire gold objects,followers and spells while also
increasing their core attributes, all of which was essential for
winning the game.
Now, the original version wasactually called Necromancer and
instead of trying to reach thecrown of Command, players were
racing to get to some evilNecromancer island where they
(05:47):
could gain the power to wipe outtheir opponents.
Even in this early version,something magical happened.
Now anyone who's ever playedTalisman will recognise that.
Harris said in his playgroupthat whenever someone was going
to be turned into a toad by theroll of a dice and again, if
you've played Talisman, you'llknow all about that.
Apparently everyone would startchanting Toad, toad, toad, toad
(06:10):
at the top of their voices.
This game was a hit with hisuniversity group and Harris
started thinking that maybe thisactually had commercial legs.
And this was in 1982, whenGames Workshop was a really
small operation when you thinkof the behemoth, the billion
dollar company that is today.
Back then they were just shy ofhaving actually been selling
(06:35):
backgammon sets.
Out of the back of a van inLondon, harris spotted an advert
for them in a gaming magazineand he sent off his handcrafted
prototype and within a couple ofweeks he found himself down in
London having a nice chat withIan Livingston and Steve Jackson
about actually publishing thegame.
Now Games Workshop wanted tochange the name to Talisman,
(06:56):
which it made sense given thatthe whole game revolved around
finding a mystic talisman toenter the final area.
But let's be honest,necromancer is a metal as hell
name and that would have beencool too.
Harris also mentioned in ananecdote that he said to steve
and ian that he designed thegame so you could easily add
expansion sets if people wantedmore content, and apparently
(07:20):
everyone had a good laugh atthis.
Those of you familiar withtalisman will realize that mr
harris probably was the onehaving the last laugh.
Anyway, launch day for Talismanwas Games Day 1983.
Now, in a personal account ofthis, harris says apparently he
had a massive hangover on thatparticular day, but it didn't
(07:40):
dim his excitement.
He was going to see his gamebrought to life and indeed Ian
Levinson himself handed him thevery first box copy of Talisman
straight off the productionlines.
The first edition featuredartwork by Gary Chalk and most
of the cards were in black andwhite.
Bizarrely, the game alsolaunched alongside a game that
(08:01):
was something designed by AndrewLloyd Webber about insurance.
Clearly that didn't have thesame staying power as Talisman.
Unfortunately, talismanactually had a fairly lukewarm
review in White Dwarf.
That was back in the day beforeWhite Dwarf became the
corporate shilling bag for GamesWorkshop.
(08:21):
That it is, and they wereactually giving objective,
independent reviews.
But nonetheless it was embracedsomewhat enthusiastically by
the gaming community.
Here was a game where yourcharacter could progress, you
could have a fantasy adventure,but you could set up and play in
an afternoon without needingsomeone spending weeks prepping
(08:41):
a campaign.
Anyway, the success of the firstedition led to a proper deluxe
second edition in 1985.
It wasn't a major rulesoverhaul, but the production
values got a massive upgrade.
Chalk's black and white artworkwas lovingly colourised and the
board changed from one bigfolded sheet to four
(09:02):
interlocking pieces, which madeit much easier to store and much
less likely to develop thosehorrible permanent creases that
made your board look like one ofyour dad's AA roadmaps.
But it wasn't just the gamecomponents that got the deluxe
treatment.
The cover art for secondedition and its expansions was
absolutely gorgeous.
Each box featured stunningfantasy artwork that perfectly
(09:26):
captured the mood and theme ofthe game within.
Any of you who have seen theartwork for the basic box of
Talisman 2nd Edition will knowthat it sucks you straight into
that fantasy world.
You want to be that dude withthe shield facing down the
wyvern that's got its wingsspread in a very terrifying
manner.
In short, they had this epiccinematic quality that really
(09:50):
made you want to dive straightinto the adventure before you
even opened the box.
But the real story of thesecond edition isn't the core
game.
That was fantastic, but it wasthe absolutely mental expansion
schedule that followed and thegrowing complexity that came
with it.
Between 1986 and 1993, gamesWorkshop released six major
(10:12):
expansions for Talisman and witheach set, the rules got more
complicated and in 1986 saw therelease of the very
imaginatively entitled expansionset.
This was done by Bob Harrishimself.
He added 14 new characters,including the Amazon, the
Barbarian, the Gladiator, theHalfling, the Knight and the
Merchant, along with 36 newadventure cards and six new
(10:35):
spells, including favouriteslike Barrier and Brainwave
Simple stuff.
He just built on what was therebefore and made it have a
little bit more depth.
1987, though, that introducedwhat would become a recurring
theme in Talisman, the Adventure.
It came with clarifications ontwo existing rules.
This was just the beginning,believe me, but the Adventure
(10:58):
added 8 new characters, 37 newadventure cards and 11 new
spells.
However, more importantly, itintroduced six alternative
ending cards, including theinfamous Pandora's Box.
More on that in a moment.
This meant when a player got tothe Crown of Command space, they
didn't necessarily find theCrown of Command.
They might find something elsethere, maybe another magical
(11:19):
artifact, maybe a viciousmonster waiting to fight them,
or maybe even a horrible blackvoid.
That meant that they've lostthe game immediately.
Interestingly, it wasn'tdesigned by Bob Harris, which
probably went a long way toexplain some of the complexity
that it introduced to the game.
Harris is very good atdesigning a game that was simple
(11:40):
.
This added a lot more movingparts and levers to pull.
It did, however, have anabsolutely epic cover featuring
this massive dragon.
Again, it just made you want togo on the aforenamed adventure.
It also came with charactersheets, which were fun ways to
keep all your talisman stufftogether on the table.
Of course, that meant youneeded to take up more table
(12:02):
space.
This was going to become arecurring theme with Talisman 2.
However, it did get goodreviews.
White Dwarf's reviewer saidthat Talisman the Adventure was
just a thing for thoseirritatingly smug people who
always win at Talisman.
I think that was a reference tothe horrible Light Void card In
(12:23):
1987, though this was wherethings started to get properly
complicated with the dungeonexpansion.
This expansion came with threeseparate sections in its rules
explaining how the new expansionaffected existing gameplay
mechanics from the main game andthe two previous expansions.
But that wasn't all.
It also included an entirelyseparate booklet detailing
(12:45):
frequently asked questions andrules clarifications for
everything released to date.
Why, well, it turned out, asmentioned before, that some of
the adventure's mechanics weregenuinely confusing.
Each of the adventure cards gotits own section in the FAQ, but
I particularly liked the onefor Pandora's Box that basically
said how does this thingactually work?
(13:06):
Faqs aside, the dungeon wasactually a fairly special
expansion.
It was designed by Bob Harrishimself and it also came with a
separate board.
Yes, more table space wasneeded, but it was this
fantastic spirally dungeon thatyou could move around.
There was 36 little countercards for the dungeon itself and
(13:28):
you could actually get ashortcut straight to the crown
of command if you didparticularly well in the dungeon
.
It added a lot to gameplay,completely different tactics and
, of course, it came with 14extra characters, because
obviously we need more.
At that point, rave reviews fromthe Trolls at White Dwarf
helped ensure sales and alsohelped ensure that in 1988,
(13:52):
talisman continued the trend ofnew boards by introducing the
Timescape expansion.
This sci-fi themed expansionwas designed by Canadian Frank
Bork I hope I'm pronouncing yourname correctly and was loosely
based on Warhammer 40,000.
It added eight characters,including the archaeologist,
complete with a whip and afedora and, yes, he looks
(14:13):
exactly like you think he doesthe astronaut, the cyborg and
the space marine.
There were 42 timescape cardsincluded and it had everything
there, including alien, thereincluding alien artifacts, to a
mining laser, space marine powerarmor and also an anti-graph
platform for when you absolutelyjust need to have a fancy way
of carrying all your stuffaround.
(14:34):
Unlike the main board, spaceson the timescape board were
considered to be these vastseparate realities, so
characters couldn't encountereach other there.
It also had a teleportingmechanic, so when you left one
reality you wouldn't necessarilyknow which other one you were
going to end up in.
Hopefully you go back to themain board so you could actually
carry on the quest.
(14:54):
In 1989, another expansioncalled the City came along, and
that also included, as traditiondictated, sections explaining
how the new expansion affectedexisting gameplay, because at
this point, interactions betweenall those different systems
were getting genuinely complex.
The city added the Minotaur andthe Valkyrie as regular
(15:16):
characters, but, moreimportantly, it introduced the
concept of master levelcharacters.
This was a purely secondedition innovation innovation,
but it gave you somethingadditional to push for for your
character, effectively a levelup in terms of powers.
Now the city provided 72 newencounter cards, seven new
Adventure cards, 20 new purchasecards and 10 new spells, along
(15:40):
with you guessed it an entirelynew city board that replaced
that single city space on themain board.
The city had its own legalsystem, it felt kind of harsh.
Apparently, being penniless wasa crime and could see you being
arrested by the Watch.
Basically, you could commit allsorts of crimes and be chased
around by cops in the TalismanCity.
(16:01):
It was great fun.
There were four master levelcharacters included with the
game the High Mage, the King'sChampion, the Master Thief and
the Sheriff.
Now, the ways of becoming thesecharacters varied wildly and
some were, frankly, overpowered.
The High Mage, for instance,went to the first person who
donated any magic item to thewizard's guild.
(16:22):
Those of you who've playedtalisman will know that magic
items are in an absoluteabundance, and that was it one
magic item.
You became one of the mostpowerful characters in the game.
Now, a later white dwarf articleintroduced some additional
master level characters.
One of those was the championof chaos, who was stupidly
overpowered, as the namesuggests.
However, if you wanted tobecome him, you had to discard
(16:45):
all your followers, all yourgold and basically take a chance
on a dice roll.
Likewise, the king's champion.
He was chosen by the kinghimself, who wandered the
streets disguised as a beggar.
So basically, you had to givemoney to random beggars in the
hope that one of them was a kingwould recognize your generosity
and for some reason then makeyou his champion.
(17:05):
I don't know quite what theking in Talisman was looking for
in the champion, but Igenerally find that philanthropy
doesn't necessarily go hand inhand with hand to hand combat
prowess.
Anyway, master level characterswere essentially character
upgrades.
You kept your originalcharacter's abilities and you
added the new ones on top.
(17:25):
Now you could resign and goback to your original character.
Usually if you wanted to doanother master level character
though some, like the High Mage,were permanent appointments you
couldn't lose.
However, one thing that the cityexpansion was controversial for
was for significantlyincreasing game length.
In theory, the city added lotsof options for letting players
(17:47):
get closer to the crown ofcommand.
In practice, I found thatplayers had a lot of fun bumming
around in the city and gettingcool stuff and therefore often
neglected the main quest.
The city probably doubled thelength of time for what was an
already very time consuming game.
The final expansion came in1993 for 2nd edition.
(18:07):
This was called Dragons and ithad four dragon themed
characters and a mass of 84adventure cards focused entirely
on dragon encounters, dragonlore and other dragon related
items.
If you like, dragons, this wasan expansion for you Now.
From a personal perspective, Iplayed Talisman Second Nation a
(18:28):
ridiculous amount during mysecondary school years, and I
had a couple of experiences thatperfectly illustrate both the
brilliance and the absolutemadness of this era of Talisman.
The first involves anabsolutely epic game against my
mate, bill.
That I'll never forget.
I'd managed to get to the Crownof Command and was merrily
blasting him with a commandspell every turn, slowly
(18:49):
draining his life away.
I thought victory was in sight.
However, bill found an artifact.
I think it was the wand thoughthis was a very long time ago
and memory isn't what it oncewas but the artifact basically
meant that he had always had atleast one spell.
So what happened was this onhis turn, he'd simply keep
casting spells and drawing newones until he got to some sort
(19:12):
of healing spell that wouldrestore his life.
Then my turn would come.
I'd blast him again and thenit'd come to his turn and he'd
repeat the process.
We were both far too stubbornto quit, and this bloody game
went on until five in themorning because neither of us
would back down.
That's what teenage boys do.
Eventually, he had a couple ofturns where he couldn't cast a
(19:33):
spell for whatever reason, andthis meant he couldn't draw a
new one and I was finally ableto kill him off.
Brutal doesn't even begin tocover it.
The really funny thing aboutthis was a later errata and I
think this was in the City.
Expansion clarified rulesaround spellcasting, namely that
you could only cast a certainnumber of spells per turn.
So I've got these images ofbleedy-eyed Talisman players
(19:57):
who'd endured similar mammothgames absolutely rejoicing when
this clarification came out.
The other story that perfectlycaptures the spirit of second
edition Talisman involves thecity expansion and the humble
mule.
These faithful creaturespreviously could carry an
unlimited amount of items.
They were basically portablewarehouses with four legs.
(20:19):
However, the city changed this,saying that mules could only
carry eight items, which wasfair enough.
That's a lot of stuff.
However, games Workshop feltthe need to clarify that players
had to apply common sense towhat mules could carry.
For example, you can't put awarhorse on top of a mule, even
though the warhorse is an item,if you think about that for a
(20:41):
moment.
Somewhere in some gaming group,someone had tried to argue that
their mule could carry awarhorse is an item, if you
think about that for a moment.
Somewhere in some gaming group,someone had tried to argue that
their mule could carry awarhorse, and the mind boggles
about what sorts of scenariosprompted that particular
clarification being written.
I like to imagine there wassome sort of heated argument
about pack animal logistics thatended with someone starting off
to write an angry letter toGames Workshops.
(21:03):
Now, another thing that madeSpecial Edition very special was
the companion range of metalminiatures that Citadel produced
.
Of course these weren'tincluded with the game.
You got little cardboard cardsthat you put into plastic bases,
but you could buy these properminiatures for every character
if you wanted to go all out, andthe range was absolutely
(21:25):
comprehensive.
Now, they never did anythingbeyond Talisman Timescape, but
every character from everyexpansion prior to that they got
their own miniature, from thebasic Wizard and Warrior all the
way through to Timescape, spaceMarine and Chainsaw Warrior.
There were even special Toadminiatures for when characters
got transformed Remember Toad,toad, toad, toad, toad.
(21:48):
There was a Warrior Toad with ahelmet, a Wizard Toad with a
spellbook and there was even aPirate Toad, because apparently
even amphibian transformationmeans that you need to expect
your chosen profession.
This city of ruins, I think,eventually included over 60
miniatures, and including allthe Toad variants, obviously,
and they were beautifullysculpted and I can imagine when
(22:10):
they were painted.
They would just look absolutelystunning on the board and
owning a full set was definitelya mark of serious talisman
dedication.
Sadly, I never owned them.
I desperately wanted all ofthem.
I think it was a timescapeexpansion.
The back of the rulebook camewith a little picture of all of
them and I thought, god, thoselook so cool.
Never owned them.
(22:31):
Anyway, what was remarkableabout this period is how each
expansion actually feltessential rather than just more
stuff.
They weren't just throwing morecards at you.
Each one added genuinely newways to play, but they were also
making the game exponentiallymore complex, as evidenced by
the escalating need for FEQdocuments and rules
(22:52):
clarifications with everyrelease.
I actually found out that thatlittle rules questions and
answers booklet can actually bebought online now, for I think
it's six dollars.
Curious little collector's item, but some people will buy
anything anyway.
By 1994 the gaming world waschanging.
Games workshop, for those ofyou who are familiar with them,
(23:13):
had gone absolutely miniaturesmad, and when the third edition
of talisman appeared itreflected this shift in a very
big way.
The most obvious change wasswapping out the little
cardboard figures on the plasticbases for proper plastic
miniatures, and this tied innicely with Games Workshop's
broader strategy of gettingpeople to buy as many miniatures
(23:36):
as possible.
They'd obviously been makingthe talisman figures previously,
but now they were building thewhole range right into the game.
But the changes went muchsteeper than just plastic
figures.
The board got a completeartistic overhaul.
Lots of characters from thesecond edition got the chop and
new ones appeared that were verymuch tied in much more closely
(23:57):
to Warhammer Fantasy Battle thanthey were to talisman.
The inner region of the boardbecame the wizard's tower and
instead of a crown of commandyou had to defeat a dragon king
to win.
The biggest mechanical changewas adding a fourth attribute
experience making the game evenmore RPG.
Like when you defeated enemies,you'd gain experience points
(24:18):
equal to their craft or strength, which you could then spend to
improve your other stats.
It was clever, but it also madethe game a little bit more
complex.
The third edition expansionsalso used realm dice.
These were die, with only thenumbers one to four instead of
the usual one to six, which mademovement through any expansion
area slower and more deliberate.
(24:39):
They released City of Adventure, dungeon of Doom and Dragon's
Tower, which all added newboards and expanded the game's
scope.
Trouble was, the third editionnever quite captured the magic
of its predecessor.
The Warhammer connections madeit feel less like its own thing
and more like a Warhammerspin-off.
The miniatures were nice, butthey came at the cost of some of
(25:01):
that distinctive characterartwork that had made earlier
editions so memorable.
It was professionally done, butit lost a lot of its original
charm, and after it ran itscourse, talisman basically
disappeared.
For a while Games Workshop hadmoved on to focusing almost
entirely on Warhammer 40k andWarhammer Fantasy Battle.
The miniature market wasabsolutely booming and board
(25:24):
games just weren't where themoney was anymore.
Also, bob Harris, the guy whocreated the whole thing he got
bought out as well.
The people running GamesWorkshop by then were completely
different from the ones who'doriginally taken a punt on a
handmade game from a Scottishuniversity student.
So for about a decade it wasreally difficult to get a copy
of Talisman.
(25:44):
You certainly couldn't buy itnew, and when this newfangled
eBay thing came along, copies ofsecond edition became like gold
dust, and so did theyexpansions.
There was an attempt to make anunofficial computer game in
July 2008, but Games Workshop inthat litigious way of theirs
ensued that that never saw thelight of day.
(26:05):
So it genuinely seemed thatTalisman might become one of
those legendary games that oldtimers would bang on about but
young players would neveractually get a chance to play.
However, in 2007, blackIndustries Games Workshop's
publishing arm announced thatthey were bringing Talisman back
with a fourth edition, and thiswas going to go back to basics,
(26:26):
based on the beloved secondedition, but with some of the
better ideas of third editionand updated production values.
The board was about 30% largerand came in six pieces instead
of four.
The artwork was updated formodern tests, but it really kept
that essential talismancharacter.
More importantly, it actuallyfelt like talisman again and not
(26:47):
like Warhammer wearing atalisman shaped trench coat.
Unfortunately, BlackIndustries' return to board
gaming was short lived.
In early 2008, they announcedthey were getting out of board
games entirely.
Fortunately, those nice peopleat Fantasy Flight Games they
stepped in to license the gameand they proved to be absolutely
brilliant custodians of thefranchise.
(27:08):
Their approach was methodicaland respectful.
They released a revised fourthedition in late 2008, complete
with an upgrade pack for peoplewho'd bought the original fourth
edition.
There were a few copies of thatreleased by Black Industries.
They then embarked on anexpansion program that, to be
quite honest, made the originalsecond edition run look
(27:29):
positively restrained.
Between 2009 and 2016, fantasyFlight released 14 expansions
for 4th edition 14.
And these weren't just cashgrabs either.
Each one added meaningfulcontent and introduced new
mechanics.
Fantasy Flight seemed tounderstand what made Talisman
(27:50):
special the variety andreplayability.
Each expansion wasn't just morecards, it was new ways to play,
new endings, new stories todiscover.
The production values, as to beexpected from Fantasy Flight,
were exceptional, with gorgeousartwork and components that
could survive years of regularplay.
Anyway, in 2017, fantasyFlight's license ended and,
(28:13):
after a bit of a gap, avalonHill picked up the license from
Games Workshop.
After several years ofdevelopment, they announced 5th
edition in February 2024, withrelease following in August, and
5th edition represents anotherthoughtful evolution of the game
.
Like 4th edition before it,it's based primarily on that
beloved 2nd edition foundation,but incorporates lessons learned
(28:35):
from 40 years of talismandesign.
The core mechanics remainfamiliar roll, move, encounter
but they've streamlined thingsconsiderably and made some
interesting changes to the endgame.
A bit like third edition,instead of just reaching the
crown of command and casting thecommand spell repeatedly until
everyone else dies or gives up.
You now have to defeat an elderdragon that's guarding the
(28:58):
crown.
It's a more decisive endingthat should help with one of
Talisman's traditional problemsgames that drag on forever
because nobody can quite finishanyone else off and everyone's
too stubborn to quit.
Eh, bill Avalon Hill hasclearly put some thought into
modernising the experience,while keeping what makes
Talisman special.
They've trimmed the characterroster slightly, streamlined
(29:20):
some of the more frustratingrandom elements and generally
tried to give players moreagency in their fate.
Whether it will capture a newgeneration of players while
satisfying the old guard remainsto be seen.
Modern games design theory isabout balance and people being
able to compete on a levelplaying field, and it will tell
you that in a race to theobjective style game, you should
(29:40):
avoid mechanisms that cancompletely wipe out another
player's progress.
The worst thing you should beable to do to an opponent, the
theory goes, is slow them downfor a turn or two.
By those standards, talisman isabsolutely terrible design.
You can lose all your stuff,get turned into a toad and have
hours of progress completelyundone by a single bad encounter
(30:02):
.
But here's the thing Talismanisn't really about balanced
competitive gameplay in themodern sense.
It's ultimately a game abouttelling a story, and a good
story doesn't have to be thateveryone is perfectly balanced
and progressing at the samesteady rate.
Sometimes the mighty warriorgets beaten up by that goblin.
Sometimes the wizard gets allhis spells wiped.
(30:24):
Sometimes everyone ends up astoads.
Those aren't design flaws,they're features, because they
create memorable moments andmake for great stories.
So why has Talisman survived forover 40 years when countless
other games have been forgotten?
Personally, I reckon it's downto a few key things.
Firstly, it's got that perfect.
(30:44):
Just one more turn quality.
Every turn offers thepossibility of discovery A
powerful spell, a game-changingartefact, a crucial encounter
that can completely flip yourposition.
The random nature means no twogames ever play out the same way
(31:05):
, which is something you can'tsee about many board games.
Secondly, it sits in that sweetspot between complexity and
accessibility.
You can teach someone to playin about 10 minutes, but working
out the optimal strategieswhere to venture inward, which
encounters to seek out how todevelop your character, that can
take years to master and,especially in second edition
with all the expansions,sometimes you're not even going
to get there.
Thirdly, it's genuinely aboutstories, not in that forced
(31:26):
narrative way that some moderngames attempt, but in the
organic way that memorablemoments just emerge from play.
This isn't a game where you getgiven a card with your
character's story on it and thenyou play the game.
Everyone who plays Talisman hastheir own stories the time the
minstrels somehow made it allthe way to the Crown of Command.
Epic battles, with ancientdragons being turned into a toad
(31:48):
just when victory was withinreach, sitting up till 5am
trying to get your friend toconcede as you blast them with
command, spell after command,spell after command spell.
Fourth, it's endlesslyexpandable.
The basic role-movingcounter-structure is simple
enough that you can bolt newcontent onto it without breaking
anything.
Each expansion adds new stories, new possibilities, new ways
(32:11):
for everything to go hilariouslywrong.
In that period between thirdedition and fourth edition
edition, a whole fan communitysprung up that did just this.
They wrote new cards, newadventure cards, new character
cards, and they kept the gamegoing.
Finally, talisman doesn't takeitself too seriously.
It's much more Terry Pratchettthan it is JRR Tolkien.
(32:34):
Yes, it's about epic fantasyadventure, but it's also about
being transformed into a toad bya pissed off sorceress.
It's also about having yourtreasure stolen by a sneaky
thief.
And it's also about watchingthe mighty warrior getting
beaten up by the lowliestcreature in the game because he
rolled badly, and these arethings that everyone laughs at
(32:54):
and talks about later.
It's a game that understands.
Sometimes the best stories arethe ones where everything goes
wrong in the most entertainingway possible.
So Talisman has now survivedfive editions, multiple
publishers, technologicalrevolutions and four decades of
changing game fashions.
It's been translated into loadsof languages, sold hundreds of
(33:15):
thousands of copies and inspiredcountless imitators.
It has also fostered aremarkably dedicated fan
community that's kept it aliveeven during the dark years.
As I mentioned before, siteslike Talisman Island, which has
been running since 1999,continues to provide news,
custom expansions and discussionforums for fans.
(33:36):
The Talisman Expansion Databasecatalogues both official and
fan-created content acrossmultiple editions.
Board Game Geek hosts activecommunities where players share
house rules and customexpansions, and there are
countless Facebook groups thatkeep the conversation growing
across social media.
But perhaps the most remarkablething is how little its core
(33:59):
appeal has changed since BobHarris first sketched out that
pencil prototype in hisuniversity digs.
It's still about charactersgoing on adventures, facing
dangers, growing in power andultimately trying to claim the
crown of command.
The mechanics have been refined, the artwork has evolved and
the production values haveimproved massively, but the
(34:20):
essential experience remains thesame.
In an era of increasinglycomplex board games with
elaborate mechanics andintricate systems, there's
something refreshing aboutTalisman's straightforward
approach Roll the dice, moveyour character, see what happens
.
It's gaming distilled to itsessence the thrill of discovery,
the tension of risk versusreward and the joy of watching a
(34:41):
story unfold through play.
Whether 5th edition will capturea new generation of players
remains to be seen, but ifhistory is any guide, talisman
will keep on trucking.
After all, some games are justtoo good to stay dead and,
honestly, that's just fine by me.
In a world that often takes itsgames very, very, very
seriously indeed, we needsomething that reminds us that
(35:04):
the best adventures are the oneswhere you might be turned into
a toad but you'll have abrilliant time getting there,
(35:25):
and that was our Talismanepisode.
I hope you enjoyed it.
If you have memories of thisgame, let us know what edition
you used to play.
Were you a fan of the moremodern editions with their
better production values andcool plastic minis, or were you
more into the chaotic energy of2nd edition and its glorious
randomness?
(35:46):
If you want to get in touch withus.
You can so at rolltosavepod atgmailcom.
We are also on social media, onInstagram and Facebook Just
search for Roll2Save.
We don't use that Twitter thinganymore, for all the obvious
reasons that people don't useTwitter anymore.
We are an incredibly irregularpodcast on the history of RPGs,
(36:10):
but we have over 70 episodes inour back catalogue now.
So if you're a new listener andyou want to get caught up in
what we've released in the past,we've got a whole ton of
history, episodes, roundtables,interviews, product reviews,
actual plays and other nonsensegoing on there Plenty to keep
you busy.
If you enjoyed this, pleaseleave us five stars on your
(36:32):
podcast platform of choice.
We really appreciate it.
It validates our fragile littleegos and encourages us to put
out more episodes.
Anyway, until next time, mayyou never be turned into a toad
and may you always avoid thehorrible black void.
Welcome to Roll2Save the RPG history podcast, talisman.
Hello, and welcome to anotherepisode of Roll to Save the RPG
(00:42):
history podcast that has arelease schedule that has RPG,
but definitely RPG adjacent, anda game that probably introduces
many people to fantasy gaming,as Fighting Fantasy did.
I'm talking, of course, aboutTalisman, the magical quest game
.
Now, I know what you'rethinking.
Hang on, isn't this supposed toall be about RPGs?
Well, yes, but we've done awhole scattershot of episodes
(01:05):
before.
So come on, consistency is notour strong point.
Talisman also occupies thatfascinating space between board
games and role-playing games.
It's got character progressionand it's got that addictive.
Just one more ton quality thatkept some of us up until five in
the morning.
More on that later.
Kept some of us up until 5 inthe morning, more on that later.
(01:28):
Talisman has actually beenaround for over 40 years,
putting its conception right atthe beginning of the RPG craze.
It's had more resurrectionsthan Freddy Krueger and Jason
Voorhees combined, and it'ssurvived company takeovers,
system rewrites and a decadewhere it basically didn't exist.
Yet somehow people still playit and it keeps coming back.
So grab your dice, pick yourfavourite character or, if
(01:51):
you're like my gaming group, getone dealt to you at random,
because otherwise everyone isjust going to fight over who
gets to be the prophetess.
And let's dive into the historyof what might be the most
enduring simple fantasy boardgame ever made.
(02:14):
So the story of Talisman kicksoff in the early 1980s at St
Andrews University in Scotland.
This is where a young mancalled Bob Harris and his future
wife Debbie had the brilliantidea of clubbing together their
student money to buy somethingcalled Dungeons and Dragons.
Now, harris himself wassomewhat resident about this
(02:37):
idea.
When first hearing about D&D,his remark was so you pretend
you're wandering around a tunneland you draw a map of it.
But they gave it a go anyway,ended up playing it for an
entire weekend, barely stoppingto eat or sleep, watching
character after character gethorribly murdered, only to roll
up new ones and dive straightback in.
(02:58):
What was interesting about Bob,though, was, while his mates
were busy drawing up elaboratedungeons and writing epic
storylines for the future, hehad a different idea brewing.
He liked all the excitement andcharacter development that came
along with Dungeons and Dragons, but he wanted to play a game
where you could have all of thatwithout all that faff of
(03:19):
preparing scenarios and runninggames Now floating around in the
back of his head was a game hedesigned while still at school
called Erectocracy.
Yes, that is as wonderfullyabsurd as it sounds.
Players took on the roles ofdifferent teachers in a British
secondary school, moving aroundthe board, trying to work their
(03:40):
way up to becoming theheadmaster.
Now, this is actually crucial tounderstanding Talisman, because
the early 80s had seen a fewattempts at creating board games
that captured some of that RPGmagic.
You had things like theSorcerer's Cave and the Mystic
Wood, trying to bridge that gapbetween traditional board games
and this new role-playing thing.
(04:01):
These games laid somegroundwork, but they were
missing something crucial.
The Sorcerer's Cave was a lotof fun.
You got a party together andyou explored a dungeon, but it
suffered from having no realobjective other than who can get
the most treasure at the end.
And Mystic Wood, well, it hadcharacter progression, but it
was almost entirely luck-based.
(04:21):
Either you rolled well on theencounter table, you killed a
monster, or you didn't, and youdidn't get the bonuses.
Some of Mystic Wood's DNA mayhave made its way into Talisman.
I remember looking at Talismanwhen I first got it and seeing
some similarities.
In Talisman, characters had twoattributes strength and craft
Mystic Wood.
(04:42):
They had two characteristicsstrength and prowess.
Also, some of the locationsthings like caves, chapels,
castles they all seemed familiarto players of Mystic Wood.
But unlike Talisman, mysticWood had no real concept of
acquiring gold items and spellsin any meaningful way to
progress your character.
(05:02):
So, all that aside, harris setaround creating something
different.
His characters would beinteresting as RPG characters
because they would each havetheir own special abilities and
moral alignments good, evil orneutral.
They'd have strength forphysical prowess and craft for
mental and spiritual faculties.
The board would be like afantasy landscape where you'd
(05:25):
have encounters by drawing cardsand, crucially, your characters
would actually progress.
They'd acquire gold objects,followers and spells while also
increasing their core attributes, all of which was essential for
winning the game.
Now, the original version wasactually called Necromancer and
instead of trying to reach thecrown of Command, players were
racing to get to some evilNecromancer island where they
(05:47):
could gain the power to wipe outtheir opponents.
Even in this early version,something magical happened.
Now anyone who's ever playedTalisman will recognise that.
Harris said in his playgroupthat whenever someone was going
to be turned into a toad by theroll of a dice and again, if
you've played Talisman, you'llknow all about that.
Apparently everyone would startchanting Toad, toad, toad, toad
(06:10):
at the top of their voices.
This game was a hit with hisuniversity group and Harris
started thinking that maybe thisactually had commercial legs.
And this was in 1982, whenGames Workshop was a really
small operation when you thinkof the behemoth, the billion
dollar company that is today.
Back then they were just shy ofhaving actually been selling
(06:35):
backgammon sets.
Out of the back of a van inLondon, harris spotted an advert
for them in a gaming magazineand he sent off his handcrafted
prototype and within a couple ofweeks he found himself down in
London having a nice chat withIan Livingston and Steve Jackson
about actually publishing thegame.
Now Games Workshop wanted tochange the name to Talisman,
(06:56):
which it made sense given thatthe whole game revolved around
finding a mystic talisman toenter the final area.
But let's be honest,necromancer is a metal as hell
name and that would have beencool too.
Harris also mentioned in ananecdote that he said to steve
and ian that he designed thegame so you could easily add
expansion sets if people wantedmore content, and apparently
(07:20):
everyone had a good laugh atthis.
Those of you familiar withtalisman will realize that mr
harris probably was the onehaving the last laugh.
Anyway, launch day for Talismanwas Games Day 1983.
Now, in a personal account ofthis, harris says apparently he
had a massive hangover on thatparticular day, but it didn't
(07:40):
dim his excitement.
He was going to see his gamebrought to life and indeed Ian
Levinson himself handed him thevery first box copy of Talisman
straight off the productionlines.
The first edition featuredartwork by Gary Chalk and most
of the cards were in black andwhite.
Bizarrely, the game alsolaunched alongside a game that
(08:01):
was something designed by AndrewLloyd Webber about insurance.
Clearly that didn't have thesame staying power as Talisman.
Unfortunately, talismanactually had a fairly lukewarm
review in White Dwarf.
That was back in the day beforeWhite Dwarf became the
corporate shilling bag for GamesWorkshop.
(08:21):
That it is, and they wereactually giving objective,
independent reviews.
But nonetheless it was embracedsomewhat enthusiastically by
the gaming community.
Here was a game where yourcharacter could progress, you
could have a fantasy adventure,but you could set up and play in
an afternoon without needingsomeone spending weeks prepping
(08:41):
a campaign.
Anyway, the success of the firstedition led to a proper deluxe
second edition in 1985.
It wasn't a major rulesoverhaul, but the production
values got a massive upgrade.
Chalk's black and white artworkwas lovingly colourised and the
board changed from one bigfolded sheet to four
(09:02):
interlocking pieces, which madeit much easier to store and much
less likely to develop thosehorrible permanent creases that
made your board look like one ofyour dad's AA roadmaps.
But it wasn't just the gamecomponents that got the deluxe
treatment.
The cover art for secondedition and its expansions was
absolutely gorgeous.
Each box featured stunningfantasy artwork that perfectly
(09:26):
captured the mood and theme ofthe game within.
Any of you who have seen theartwork for the basic box of
Talisman 2nd Edition will knowthat it sucks you straight into
that fantasy world.
You want to be that dude withthe shield facing down the
wyvern that's got its wingsspread in a very terrifying
manner.
In short, they had this epiccinematic quality that really
(09:50):
made you want to dive straightinto the adventure before you
even opened the box.
But the real story of thesecond edition isn't the core
game.
That was fantastic, but it wasthe absolutely mental expansion
schedule that followed and thegrowing complexity that came
with it.
Between 1986 and 1993, gamesWorkshop released six major
(10:12):
expansions for Talisman and witheach set, the rules got more
complicated and in 1986 saw therelease of the very
imaginatively entitled expansionset.
This was done by Bob Harrishimself.
He added 14 new characters,including the Amazon, the
Barbarian, the Gladiator, theHalfling, the Knight and the
Merchant, along with 36 newadventure cards and six new
(10:35):
spells, including favouriteslike Barrier and Brainwave
Simple stuff.
He just built on what was therebefore and made it have a
little bit more depth.
1987, though, that introducedwhat would become a recurring
theme in Talisman, the Adventure.
It came with clarifications ontwo existing rules.
This was just the beginning,believe me, but the Adventure
(10:58):
added 8 new characters, 37 newadventure cards and 11 new
spells.
However, more importantly, itintroduced six alternative
ending cards, including theinfamous Pandora's Box.
More on that in a moment.
This meant when a player got tothe Crown of Command space, they
didn't necessarily find theCrown of Command.
They might find something elsethere, maybe another magical
(11:19):
artifact, maybe a viciousmonster waiting to fight them,
or maybe even a horrible blackvoid.
That meant that they've lostthe game immediately.
Interestingly, it wasn'tdesigned by Bob Harris, which
probably went a long way toexplain some of the complexity
that it introduced to the game.
Harris is very good atdesigning a game that was simple
(11:40):
.
This added a lot more movingparts and levers to pull.
It did, however, have anabsolutely epic cover featuring
this massive dragon.
Again, it just made you want togo on the aforenamed adventure.
It also came with charactersheets, which were fun ways to
keep all your talisman stufftogether on the table.
Of course, that meant youneeded to take up more table
(12:02):
space.
This was going to become arecurring theme with Talisman 2.
However, it did get goodreviews.
White Dwarf's reviewer saidthat Talisman the Adventure was
just a thing for thoseirritatingly smug people who
always win at Talisman.
I think that was a reference tothe horrible Light Void card In
(12:23):
1987, though this was wherethings started to get properly
complicated with the dungeonexpansion.
This expansion came with threeseparate sections in its rules
explaining how the new expansionaffected existing gameplay
mechanics from the main game andthe two previous expansions.
But that wasn't all.
It also included an entirelyseparate booklet detailing
(12:45):
frequently asked questions andrules clarifications for
everything released to date.
Why, well, it turned out, asmentioned before, that some of
the adventure's mechanics weregenuinely confusing.
Each of the adventure cards gotits own section in the FAQ, but
I particularly liked the onefor Pandora's Box that basically
said how does this thingactually work?
(13:06):
Faqs aside, the dungeon wasactually a fairly special
expansion.
It was designed by Bob Harrishimself and it also came with a
separate board.
Yes, more table space wasneeded, but it was this
fantastic spirally dungeon thatyou could move around.
There was 36 little countercards for the dungeon itself and
(13:28):
you could actually get ashortcut straight to the crown
of command if you didparticularly well in the dungeon
.
It added a lot to gameplay,completely different tactics and
, of course, it came with 14extra characters, because
obviously we need more.
At that point, rave reviews fromthe Trolls at White Dwarf
helped ensure sales and alsohelped ensure that in 1988,
(13:52):
talisman continued the trend ofnew boards by introducing the
Timescape expansion.
This sci-fi themed expansionwas designed by Canadian Frank
Bork I hope I'm pronouncing yourname correctly and was loosely
based on Warhammer 40,000.
It added eight characters,including the archaeologist,
complete with a whip and afedora and, yes, he looks
(14:13):
exactly like you think he doesthe astronaut, the cyborg and
the space marine.
There were 42 timescape cardsincluded and it had everything
there, including alien, thereincluding alien artifacts, to a
mining laser, space marine powerarmor and also an anti-graph
platform for when you absolutelyjust need to have a fancy way
of carrying all your stuffaround.
(14:34):
Unlike the main board, spaceson the timescape board were
considered to be these vastseparate realities, so
characters couldn't encountereach other there.
It also had a teleportingmechanic, so when you left one
reality you wouldn't necessarilyknow which other one you were
going to end up in.
Hopefully you go back to themain board so you could actually
carry on the quest.
(14:54):
In 1989, another expansioncalled the City came along, and
that also included, as traditiondictated, sections explaining
how the new expansion affectedexisting gameplay, because at
this point, interactions betweenall those different systems
were getting genuinely complex.
The city added the Minotaur andthe Valkyrie as regular
(15:16):
characters, but, moreimportantly, it introduced the
concept of master levelcharacters.
This was a purely secondedition innovation innovation,
but it gave you somethingadditional to push for for your
character, effectively a levelup in terms of powers.
Now the city provided 72 newencounter cards, seven new
Adventure cards, 20 new purchasecards and 10 new spells, along
(15:40):
with you guessed it an entirelynew city board that replaced
that single city space on themain board.
The city had its own legalsystem, it felt kind of harsh.
Apparently, being penniless wasa crime and could see you being
arrested by the Watch.
Basically, you could commit allsorts of crimes and be chased
around by cops in the TalismanCity.
(16:01):
It was great fun.
There were four master levelcharacters included with the
game the High Mage, the King'sChampion, the Master Thief and
the Sheriff.
Now, the ways of becoming thesecharacters varied wildly and
some were, frankly, overpowered.
The High Mage, for instance,went to the first person who
donated any magic item to thewizard's guild.
(16:22):
Those of you who've playedtalisman will know that magic
items are in an absoluteabundance, and that was it one
magic item.
You became one of the mostpowerful characters in the game.
Now, a later white dwarf articleintroduced some additional
master level characters.
One of those was the championof chaos, who was stupidly
overpowered, as the namesuggests.
However, if you wanted tobecome him, you had to discard
(16:45):
all your followers, all yourgold and basically take a chance
on a dice roll.
Likewise, the king's champion.
He was chosen by the kinghimself, who wandered the
streets disguised as a beggar.
So basically, you had to givemoney to random beggars in the
hope that one of them was a kingwould recognize your generosity
and for some reason then makeyou his champion.
(17:05):
I don't know quite what theking in Talisman was looking for
in the champion, but Igenerally find that philanthropy
doesn't necessarily go hand inhand with hand to hand combat
prowess.
Anyway, master level characterswere essentially character
upgrades.
You kept your originalcharacter's abilities and you
added the new ones on top.
(17:25):
Now you could resign and goback to your original character.
Usually if you wanted to doanother master level character
though some, like the High Mage,were permanent appointments you
couldn't lose.
However, one thing that the cityexpansion was controversial for
was for significantlyincreasing game length.
In theory, the city added lotsof options for letting players
(17:47):
get closer to the crown ofcommand.
In practice, I found thatplayers had a lot of fun bumming
around in the city and gettingcool stuff and therefore often
neglected the main quest.
The city probably doubled thelength of time for what was an
already very time consuming game.
The final expansion came in1993 for 2nd edition.
(18:07):
This was called Dragons and ithad four dragon themed
characters and a mass of 84adventure cards focused entirely
on dragon encounters, dragonlore and other dragon related
items.
If you like, dragons, this wasan expansion for you Now.
From a personal perspective, Iplayed Talisman Second Nation a
(18:28):
ridiculous amount during mysecondary school years, and I
had a couple of experiences thatperfectly illustrate both the
brilliance and the absolutemadness of this era of Talisman.
The first involves anabsolutely epic game against my
mate, bill.
That I'll never forget.
I'd managed to get to the Crownof Command and was merrily
blasting him with a commandspell every turn, slowly
(18:49):
draining his life away.
I thought victory was in sight.
However, bill found an artifact.
I think it was the wand thoughthis was a very long time ago
and memory isn't what it oncewas but the artifact basically
meant that he had always had atleast one spell.
So what happened was this onhis turn, he'd simply keep
casting spells and drawing newones until he got to some sort
(19:12):
of healing spell that wouldrestore his life.
Then my turn would come.
I'd blast him again and thenit'd come to his turn and he'd
repeat the process.
We were both far too stubbornto quit, and this bloody game
went on until five in themorning because neither of us
would back down.
That's what teenage boys do.
Eventually, he had a couple ofturns where he couldn't cast a
(19:33):
spell for whatever reason, andthis meant he couldn't draw a
new one and I was finally ableto kill him off.
Brutal doesn't even begin tocover it.
The really funny thing aboutthis was a later errata and I
think this was in the City.
Expansion clarified rulesaround spellcasting, namely that
you could only cast a certainnumber of spells per turn.
So I've got these images ofbleedy-eyed Talisman players
(19:57):
who'd endured similar mammothgames absolutely rejoicing when
this clarification came out.
The other story that perfectlycaptures the spirit of second
edition Talisman involves thecity expansion and the humble
mule.
These faithful creaturespreviously could carry an
unlimited amount of items.
They were basically portablewarehouses with four legs.
(20:19):
However, the city changed this,saying that mules could only
carry eight items, which wasfair enough.
That's a lot of stuff.
However, games Workshop feltthe need to clarify that players
had to apply common sense towhat mules could carry.
For example, you can't put awarhorse on top of a mule, even
though the warhorse is an item,if you think about that for a
(20:41):
moment.
Somewhere in some gaming group,someone had tried to argue that
their mule could carry awarhorse is an item, if you
think about that for a moment.
Somewhere in some gaming group,someone had tried to argue that
their mule could carry awarhorse, and the mind boggles
about what sorts of scenariosprompted that particular
clarification being written.
I like to imagine there wassome sort of heated argument
about pack animal logistics thatended with someone starting off
to write an angry letter toGames Workshops.
(21:03):
Now, another thing that madeSpecial Edition very special was
the companion range of metalminiatures that Citadel produced
.
Of course these weren'tincluded with the game.
You got little cardboard cardsthat you put into plastic bases,
but you could buy these properminiatures for every character
if you wanted to go all out, andthe range was absolutely
(21:25):
comprehensive.
Now, they never did anythingbeyond Talisman Timescape, but
every character from everyexpansion prior to that they got
their own miniature, from thebasic Wizard and Warrior all the
way through to Timescape, spaceMarine and Chainsaw Warrior.
There were even special Toadminiatures for when characters
got transformed Remember Toad,toad, toad, toad, toad.
(21:48):
There was a Warrior Toad with ahelmet, a Wizard Toad with a
spellbook and there was even aPirate Toad, because apparently
even amphibian transformationmeans that you need to expect
your chosen profession.
This city of ruins, I think,eventually included over 60
miniatures, and including allthe Toad variants, obviously,
and they were beautifullysculpted and I can imagine when
(22:10):
they were painted.
They would just look absolutelystunning on the board and
owning a full set was definitelya mark of serious talisman
dedication.
Sadly, I never owned them.
I desperately wanted all ofthem.
I think it was a timescapeexpansion.
The back of the rulebook camewith a little picture of all of
them and I thought, god, thoselook so cool.
Never owned them.
(22:31):
Anyway, what was remarkableabout this period is how each
expansion actually feltessential rather than just more
stuff.
They weren't just throwing morecards at you.
Each one added genuinely newways to play, but they were also
making the game exponentiallymore complex, as evidenced by
the escalating need for FEQdocuments and rules
(22:52):
clarifications with everyrelease.
I actually found out that thatlittle rules questions and
answers booklet can actually bebought online now, for I think
it's six dollars.
Curious little collector's item, but some people will buy
anything anyway.
By 1994 the gaming world waschanging.
Games workshop, for those ofyou who are familiar with them,
(23:13):
had gone absolutely miniaturesmad, and when the third edition
of talisman appeared itreflected this shift in a very
big way.
The most obvious change wasswapping out the little
cardboard figures on the plasticbases for proper plastic
miniatures, and this tied innicely with Games Workshop's
broader strategy of gettingpeople to buy as many miniatures
(23:36):
as possible.
They'd obviously been makingthe talisman figures previously,
but now they were building thewhole range right into the game.
But the changes went muchsteeper than just plastic
figures.
The board got a completeartistic overhaul.
Lots of characters from thesecond edition got the chop and
new ones appeared that were verymuch tied in much more closely
(23:57):
to Warhammer Fantasy Battle thanthey were to talisman.
The inner region of the boardbecame the wizard's tower and
instead of a crown of commandyou had to defeat a dragon king
to win.
The biggest mechanical changewas adding a fourth attribute
experience making the game evenmore RPG.
Like when you defeated enemies,you'd gain experience points
(24:18):
equal to their craft or strength, which you could then spend to
improve your other stats.
It was clever, but it also madethe game a little bit more
complex.
The third edition expansionsalso used realm dice.
These were die, with only thenumbers one to four instead of
the usual one to six, which mademovement through any expansion
area slower and more deliberate.
(24:39):
They released City of Adventure, dungeon of Doom and Dragon's
Tower, which all added newboards and expanded the game's
scope.
Trouble was, the third editionnever quite captured the magic
of its predecessor.
The Warhammer connections madeit feel less like its own thing
and more like a Warhammerspin-off.
The miniatures were nice, butthey came at the cost of some of
(25:01):
that distinctive characterartwork that had made earlier
editions so memorable.
It was professionally done, butit lost a lot of its original
charm, and after it ran itscourse, talisman basically
disappeared.
For a while Games Workshop hadmoved on to focusing almost
entirely on Warhammer 40k andWarhammer Fantasy Battle.
The miniature market wasabsolutely booming and board
(25:24):
games just weren't where themoney was anymore.
Also, bob Harris, the guy whocreated the whole thing he got
bought out as well.
The people running GamesWorkshop by then were completely
different from the ones who'doriginally taken a punt on a
handmade game from a Scottishuniversity student.
So for about a decade it wasreally difficult to get a copy
of Talisman.
(25:44):
You certainly couldn't buy itnew, and when this newfangled
eBay thing came along, copies ofsecond edition became like gold
dust, and so did theyexpansions.
There was an attempt to make anunofficial computer game in
July 2008, but Games Workshop inthat litigious way of theirs
ensued that that never saw thelight of day.
(26:05):
So it genuinely seemed thatTalisman might become one of
those legendary games that oldtimers would bang on about but
young players would neveractually get a chance to play.
However, in 2007, blackIndustries Games Workshop's
publishing arm announced thatthey were bringing Talisman back
with a fourth edition, and thiswas going to go back to basics,
(26:26):
based on the beloved secondedition, but with some of the
better ideas of third editionand updated production values.
The board was about 30% largerand came in six pieces instead
of four.
The artwork was updated formodern tests, but it really kept
that essential talismancharacter.
More importantly, it actuallyfelt like talisman again and not
(26:47):
like Warhammer wearing atalisman shaped trench coat.
Unfortunately, BlackIndustries' return to board
gaming was short lived.
In early 2008, they announcedthey were getting out of board
games entirely.
Fortunately, those nice peopleat Fantasy Flight Games they
stepped in to license the gameand they proved to be absolutely
brilliant custodians of thefranchise.
(27:08):
Their approach was methodicaland respectful.
They released a revised fourthedition in late 2008, complete
with an upgrade pack for peoplewho'd bought the original fourth
edition.
There were a few copies of thatreleased by Black Industries.
They then embarked on anexpansion program that, to be
quite honest, made the originalsecond edition run look
(27:29):
positively restrained.
Between 2009 and 2016, fantasyFlight released 14 expansions
for 4th edition 14.
And these weren't just cashgrabs either.
Each one added meaningfulcontent and introduced new
mechanics.
Fantasy Flight seemed tounderstand what made Talisman
(27:50):
special the variety andreplayability.
Each expansion wasn't just morecards, it was new ways to play,
new endings, new stories todiscover.
The production values, as to beexpected from Fantasy Flight,
were exceptional, with gorgeousartwork and components that
could survive years of regularplay.
Anyway, in 2017, fantasyFlight's license ended and,
(28:13):
after a bit of a gap, avalonHill picked up the license from
Games Workshop.
After several years ofdevelopment, they announced 5th
edition in February 2024, withrelease following in August, and
5th edition represents anotherthoughtful evolution of the game
.
Like 4th edition before it,it's based primarily on that
beloved 2nd edition foundation,but incorporates lessons learned
(28:35):
from 40 years of talismandesign.
The core mechanics remainfamiliar roll, move, encounter
but they've streamlined thingsconsiderably and made some
interesting changes to the endgame.
A bit like third edition,instead of just reaching the
crown of command and casting thecommand spell repeatedly until
everyone else dies or gives up.
You now have to defeat an elderdragon that's guarding the
(28:58):
crown.
It's a more decisive endingthat should help with one of
Talisman's traditional problemsgames that drag on forever
because nobody can quite finishanyone else off and everyone's
too stubborn to quit.
Eh, bill Avalon Hill hasclearly put some thought into
modernising the experience,while keeping what makes
Talisman special.
They've trimmed the characterroster slightly, streamlined
(29:20):
some of the more frustratingrandom elements and generally
tried to give players moreagency in their fate.
Whether it will capture a newgeneration of players while
satisfying the old guard remainsto be seen.
Modern games design theory isabout balance and people being
able to compete on a levelplaying field, and it will tell
you that in a race to theobjective style game, you should
(29:40):
avoid mechanisms that cancompletely wipe out another
player's progress.
The worst thing you should beable to do to an opponent, the
theory goes, is slow them downfor a turn or two.
By those standards, talisman isabsolutely terrible design.
You can lose all your stuff,get turned into a toad and have
hours of progress completelyundone by a single bad encounter
(30:02):
.
But here's the thing Talismanisn't really about balanced
competitive gameplay in themodern sense.
It's ultimately a game abouttelling a story, and a good
story doesn't have to be thateveryone is perfectly balanced
and progressing at the samesteady rate.
Sometimes the mighty warriorgets beaten up by that goblin.
Sometimes the wizard gets allhis spells wiped.
(30:24):
Sometimes everyone ends up astoads.
Those aren't design flaws,they're features, because they
create memorable moments andmake for great stories.
So why has Talisman survived forover 40 years when countless
other games have been forgotten?
Personally, I reckon it's downto a few key things.
Firstly, it's got that perfect.
(30:44):
Just one more turn quality.
Every turn offers thepossibility of discovery A
powerful spell, a game-changingartefact, a crucial encounter
that can completely flip yourposition.
The random nature means no twogames ever play out the same way
(31:05):
, which is something you can'tsee about many board games.
Secondly, it sits in that sweetspot between complexity and
accessibility.
You can teach someone to playin about 10 minutes, but working
out the optimal strategieswhere to venture inward, which
encounters to seek out how todevelop your character, that can
take years to master and,especially in second edition
with all the expansions,sometimes you're not even going
to get there.
Thirdly, it's genuinely aboutstories, not in that forced
(31:26):
narrative way that some moderngames attempt, but in the
organic way that memorablemoments just emerge from play.
This isn't a game where you getgiven a card with your
character's story on it and thenyou play the game.
Everyone who plays Talisman hastheir own stories the time the
minstrels somehow made it allthe way to the Crown of Command.
Epic battles, with ancientdragons being turned into a toad
(31:48):
just when victory was withinreach, sitting up till 5am
trying to get your friend toconcede as you blast them with
command, spell after command,spell after command spell.
Fourth, it's endlesslyexpandable.
The basic role-movingcounter-structure is simple
enough that you can bolt newcontent onto it without breaking
anything.
Each expansion adds new stories, new possibilities, new ways
(32:11):
for everything to go hilariouslywrong.
In that period between thirdedition and fourth edition
edition, a whole fan communitysprung up that did just this.
They wrote new cards, newadventure cards, new character
cards, and they kept the gamegoing.
Finally, talisman doesn't takeitself too seriously.
It's much more Terry Pratchettthan it is JRR Tolkien.
(32:34):
Yes, it's about epic fantasyadventure, but it's also about
being transformed into a toad bya pissed off sorceress.
It's also about having yourtreasure stolen by a sneaky
thief.
And it's also about watchingthe mighty warrior getting
beaten up by the lowliestcreature in the game because he
rolled badly, and these arethings that everyone laughs at
(32:54):
and talks about later.
It's a game that understands.
Sometimes the best stories arethe ones where everything goes
wrong in the most entertainingway possible.
So Talisman has now survivedfive editions, multiple
publishers, technologicalrevolutions and four decades of
changing game fashions.
It's been translated into loadsof languages, sold hundreds of
(33:15):
thousands of copies and inspiredcountless imitators.
It has also fostered aremarkably dedicated fan
community that's kept it aliveeven during the dark years.
As I mentioned before, siteslike Talisman Island, which has
been running since 1999,continues to provide news,
custom expansions and discussionforums for fans.
(33:36):
The Talisman Expansion Databasecatalogues both official and
fan-created content acrossmultiple editions.
Board Game Geek hosts activecommunities where players share
house rules and customexpansions, and there are
countless Facebook groups thatkeep the conversation growing
across social media.
But perhaps the most remarkablething is how little its core
(33:59):
appeal has changed since BobHarris first sketched out that
pencil prototype in hisuniversity digs.
It's still about charactersgoing on adventures, facing
dangers, growing in power andultimately trying to claim the
crown of command.
The mechanics have been refined, the artwork has evolved and
the production values haveimproved massively, but the
(34:20):
essential experience remains thesame.
In an era of increasinglycomplex board games with
elaborate mechanics andintricate systems, there's
something refreshing aboutTalisman's straightforward
approach Roll the dice, moveyour character, see what happens
.
It's gaming distilled to itsessence the thrill of discovery,
the tension of risk versusreward and the joy of watching a
(34:41):
story unfold through play.
Whether 5th edition will capturea new generation of players
remains to be seen, but ifhistory is any guide, talisman
will keep on trucking.
After all, some games are justtoo good to stay dead and,
honestly, that's just fine by me.
In a world that often takes itsgames very, very, very
seriously indeed, we needsomething that reminds us that
(35:04):
the best adventures are the oneswhere you might be turned into
a toad but you'll have abrilliant time getting there,
(35:25):
and that was our Talismanepisode.
I hope you enjoyed it.
If you have memories of thisgame, let us know what edition
you used to play.
Were you a fan of the moremodern editions with their
better production values andcool plastic minis, or were you
more into the chaotic energy of2nd edition and its glorious
randomness?
(35:46):
If you want to get in touch withus.
You can so at rolltosavepod atgmailcom.
We are also on social media, onInstagram and Facebook Just
search for Roll2Save.
We don't use that Twitter thinganymore, for all the obvious
reasons that people don't useTwitter anymore.
We are an incredibly irregularpodcast on the history of RPGs,
(36:10):
but we have over 70 episodes inour back catalogue now.
So if you're a new listener andyou want to get caught up in
what we've released in the past,we've got a whole ton of
history, episodes, roundtables,interviews, product reviews,
actual plays and other nonsensegoing on there Plenty to keep
you busy.
If you enjoyed this, pleaseleave us five stars on your
(36:32):
podcast platform of choice.
We really appreciate it.
It validates our fragile littleegos and encourages us to put
out more episodes.
Anyway, until next time, mayyou never be turned into a toad
and may you always avoid thehorrible black void.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.