Interview with author Penn Cole

Devonnie and Jordan chat with New York Times & USA Today Bestselling author of The Kindred's Curse Saga, Penn Cole. 

Penn shares her journey of landing her dream trad deal, being a fantasy romance fan, attempts to convert us to team Henri (iykyk), and she shares an EXCLUSIVE QUOTE FROM BURN 😱. It’s definitely one that will send you into a theory spiral!

If you haven’t caught up on her series yet, you can still listen. Just skip the chapters marked *spoilers* to avoid any major spoilers.

You can find Penn Cole at:

https://www.penncole.com/

https://www.instagram.com/AuthorPennCole

Send us a text

Support the show

https://www.instagram.com/romancerecspod/
https://www.threads.net/@romancerecspod

Episode Transcript

Devonnie (00:02):
Welcome to Romance Wrecks, where book besties
explore the world of romancenovels and encourage you to
expand your TBR.
Join us as we dive into thehottest releases and hidden gems
of the genre.
You can find us on Instagram andthreads at romancewreckspod.
Hi guys! I'm Dev.

Jordan (00:21):
Heh heh heh.

Devonnie (00:22):
I, uh, you know, okay.
Um, I am currently readingSpiral by Bal Cabra.
Now it is an ARC, but I knowy'all like to tussle, don't
worry.
It will be out and available onJanuary 28th.

Jordan (00:36):
I'm Jordan.
I am re listening to Heat of theEverflame by Penn Cole.
Just getting in the mood.
Just getting in the mood.
And, and I am reading Scandal byNevessa Allen.

Penn Cole (00:52):
Ooh, I want to read,

Devonnie (00:54):
I'm loving the Vessa Allen.
And who, pray tell, do we havein studio with us today?

Penn Cole (01:01):
It's me.
I'm Penn Cole, author of Heat ofthe Everflame and Spark of the
Everflame and Glow of theEverflame.
And someday Burn of theEverflame.

Devonnie (01:10):
Thank you.
Yes.

Penn Cole (01:12):
Yeah.

Jordan (01:12):
Yes.

Penn Cole (01:14):
And, um, I am reading, I'm switching between
two books right now.
I'm reading, um, Book of Azraelby Amber V.
Nicole, who I love so much.
I adore her.
I know.
I know.
Diana is queen,

Devonnie (01:28):
Yeah.

Penn Cole (01:28):
Um, and I just paused to read my friend Helen
Schoyer's book that's comingout, Iron and Embers, which is a
spinoff of her very popularseries, Legends of Bismarck.
And I think it's also out onJanuary 28th.
So, um, check it out.
Yes.

Devonnie (01:48):
Yeah.
January 28th is definitely whena lot of books are coming out.
So that's exciting.
I'm excited to see what else.

Jordan (01:53):
A lot of good things to start out the year.

Devonnie (01:55):
Exactly.
Now I do want to kick us offwith a quote here and I may have
done some homework.
I didn't need to do too muchbecause honestly, everything
this man says.
It's like golden to me and doyou know what I'm going to say?

Penn Cole (02:12):
I have a feeling.

Devonnie (02:13):
Yeah, here, here is a quote from heat of the ever
flame by my book, boyfriend, abook husband.
At this point, y'all could keepthe boyfriend title because
that's my man, my man, my man.
But he says desire.
He gave a dark throaty laugh.
Desire is a pathetic word forwhat I feel for you.

(02:35):
I require you, I am sustained byyou.
You are the flame that fuels myfire.
Don't you dare question that.
Not for a second.
I mean,

Jordan (02:45):
I

Penn Cole (02:46):
That's my boy.

Jordan (02:48):
Oh!

Devonnie (02:50):
everything he says is so good, but honestly it's so
hard to pick from my favoriteLuther quote, but I wanted to
share that one specificallybecause the, I require you, I am
sustained by you.

Jordan (03:01):
Yeah.
That.

Penn Cole (03:02):
I mean, our man can give a speech.
What can I say?

Jordan (03:06):
He can.

Devonnie (03:07):
Yeah, yeah.
And you built him that way.
That's the best part.
Like, you built him to be ableto say these things.
So yeah, that's my quote fortoday.
I know, right?
I'm bothered.

Jordan (03:16):
Yeah.
It was hard not to go with aLuther quote.
To be honest.
But I was like, I gotta givesome More credit to Diem because
I just I don't feel like shegets enough.
So yeah, yes Oh, trust me.
We'll get into the things we seehappening about her.

Penn Cole (03:32):
Oh no.
Oh no.

Jordan (03:34):
No, all good from us.
All

Penn Cole (03:36):
Okay, good.
Okay, good.

Jordan (03:38):
It's from Heat of the Everflame.
I knew men like him.
I'd outsmarted and outmatchedthem all my life.
They didn't trifle with sillythings like logic or reason.
They were bullies, and bulliesonly responded to fear.

Devonnie (03:53):
Yes, we love a badass

Jordan (03:55):
Yes!

Penn Cole (03:56):
Yes.
Tell them, girl.

Jordan (03:59):
I know!

Devonnie (04:00):
exactly.
Yeah.

Jordan (04:01):
thought it was very poignant, too.
I just, I feel like we need thisquote right now.

Devonnie (04:05):
Yeah, yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Yes have you got?
Do you have a quote for us

Penn Cole (04:09):
Well, I thought I would share a quote from Burn,
actually.
I

Devonnie (04:13):
Penn stop!

Penn Cole (04:15):
you might enjoy that.
Something no one has seen atall.
No one has seen.
Um, I'm going to give you zerocontext for this quote, uh, and
let you all just spiral.
Just my favorite

Devonnie (04:31):
Thank you so much.

Penn Cole (04:33):
Okay.
It's a little bit of a strangequote.
Here goes.
Balance is needed, balance isoffered, balance is owed.
In sacred soil, three heartsentwined must be shattered and
sowed.
One life taken, one life given,one life a burden bestowed.

Jordan (04:54):
oh, oh Oh ideas Scary ideas.

Penn Cole (05:02):
Who knows?

Jordan (05:04):
I'm,

Devonnie (05:04):
brain feels like a bag of cats right now.
I'm

Jordan (05:06):
I have sweaty palms.
Things just like, oh,

Devonnie (05:11):
thing about a riddle is I want to know one who's the
speaker.
I want to know who's saying it.
I want to know who's this.
Penn's like, uh, I know.
Can't tell ya.

Penn Cole (05:21):
And, and as, and as our girl Ursel says, our, our
Umbrose queen, prophecies canhave many meanings,

Jordan (05:29):
Mm

Penn Cole (05:29):
many meanings.

Devonnie (05:31):
I hate this for

Jordan (05:32):
That's where I am.
That's where I am right now

Penn Cole (05:34):
You're welcome.

Devonnie (05:36):
Yeah

Jordan (05:37):
we're in Umbros.

Penn Cole (05:38):
I love her.
That's my

Devonnie (05:40):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I know all of ourlisteners are probably spiraling
with us.
So

Penn Cole (05:45):
girl.

Devonnie (05:46):
appreciate it so much

Jordan (05:49):
I can't wait to re listen to that and really digest
it

Devonnie (05:52):
You're over analyzing that yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah.
Yeah All right, cool.
So now that we have that doneCaptivating quote

Penn Cole (06:02):
No,

Jordan (06:02):
thank

Devonnie (06:03):
way.
Thank you.
I'm

Penn Cole (06:05):
be easy to focus for the rest of the podcast, right?

Devonnie (06:08):
right.
I we're definitely gonna flythrough this.
I'm not gonna be thinking aboutit in the back of my mind at all
Um, but yeah with I know jordanand I picked quotes from heat
and we've got a re releasecoming up.
But yeah, why don't you tell usa little bit about the re
releases and maybe any otherannouncements that You'd like to
mention right now before we getinto the nitty gritty

Penn Cole (06:28):
Well, a lot is going on a lot.
Um, the series was picked up, soit was originally self
published.
It was picked up by Atrio, whichis an imprint of Simon Schuster,
for the print editions, and sothose are slowly re releasing.
Spark and Glow are already out.
Heat re releases in print onMarch 11th, very, very soon.

(06:50):
Super excited about that.
It's got a, um, exclusive POVbonus chapter from Luther, uh,
that's So great.
It's, um, his, it's tied to themoment they have in the inn, in
Umbrusque, that's all I'll say.
Okay?
Which

Devonnie (07:07):
Oh,

Penn Cole (07:08):
a moment, right?

Devonnie (07:10):
yes!

Jordan (07:12):
Oh!

Penn Cole (07:13):
there is a pre order incentive if you pre order the
new edition of Heat.
You can get another bonuschapter from Taryn's point of
view.
Um, a little special momentbetween him and Zolerick, our
baby boy who we love.
I know.
I'm so excited about that one.
Uh, and then, and then I have aton of tours and events going on

(07:37):
this year.
I have a full list of them on mywebsite, but the one's coming up
soonest.
I have a German tour next week,and then I'll be along the West
coast of the U.
S.
In February, Seattle, Portland,San Diego, LA, and Romantici
BookCon.
So, so, so excited about that.
I'll be at a PolyCon in DC inApril.
I'll be at Villains and Vixensin Dallas in September.

(08:00):
I'll be at Rare London in July.
And we are working on a U.
S.
and Canada tour over the summer.
So hopefully we'll hit some morespots that we haven't been able
to hit.

Devonnie (08:12):
Yes, we love that.
Oh, we're

Jordan (08:15):
Congratulations.

Devonnie (08:16):
Yeah.

Jordan (08:18):
so busy and exciting.

Penn Cole (08:20):
Exciting.

Jordan (08:21):
well earned.
and we'll see you in Seattle.

Devonnie (08:23):
We will.
We'll be there.
We will be there.

Penn Cole (08:28):
We can reassess the quote then.
Come back to me with yourtheories,

Jordan (08:32):
Yes.

Devonnie (08:33):
have to tussle.
If you don't tell me who it'sfrom.
Yeah.

Jordan (08:40):
Oh, that's so fun.
Just watching your journey fromlike, when I started watching
yours, it's been so fun and justreally inspiring to watch.
It's,

Devonnie (08:50):
Yeah.

Jordan (08:51):
so great.

Devonnie (08:53):
Yeah.
I love that.

Penn Cole (08:55):
and wild and wonderful.

Devonnie (08:57):
Yeah, I'm sure it definitely comes with the ups
and downs, but I just, I don'tknow.
There's something about when Ifirst started interacting with
you as like, you know, a readerwho is just loving your work.
And I just, you just had thisvibe.
I was like, Ooh, I like it.
I like it.
And you're just so engaging withyour community and the readers.
And I feel like that's what likereally pulled me into you.

(09:19):
Like that was my buy in to youas an author, even though I'd
already like, okay, I'd read theseries.
I was eating it up.
I needed more, you know, um,Cool.
Was waiting for the last one.
But like, to also feel that buyin with you and want to like,
see you do well and want towatch you grow and like, seeing
your career just move and spreadlike wildfire.
I think that's, that's just beenlike, so nice because I feel

(09:41):
like you deserve it.
I feel like we've been bestiesfor so long,

Penn Cole (09:43):
We totally have.
We

Devonnie (09:45):
Yeah, yeah.
And I'm just cheering my bestiego bestie.
Yeah, it's just been really niceto watch, to watch everything
take off.
And, um, yeah.
And, and you, I mean, you killedit.
The story,

Penn Cole (09:59):
Thank

Devonnie (09:59):
the story so far is actually amazing.
It's great reading.
So that just makes it supereasy.
And like.
I mean, of course, we all wantto know like what inspired the
idea for this story for you.
Like, is this a situation whereyou were like, one day you woke
up, you were like, I have thewhole thing.
Or have you been working on thisfor years?
Like, how did, how did it comeabout?

Penn Cole (10:22):
I always knew I wanted to write a romance for, I
mean, years and years and years,but I didn't really have a clear
vision of what I wanted towrite.
I kind of knew some themes thatI wanted to touch on and, um,
some ideas for characters orcertain little plot twists, you
know, little bits here andthere.
But it wasn't until, yeah, it,it, it, it wasn't until, um,

(10:48):
actually during the pandemicwhen I was unemployed because I
had moved overseas and I had toleave my job as a result and I
just was not able to find a jobhere in France that I really
started saying, okay, maybe thisis the time for me to write.
If I did, what?
What I write and that's when I,I sat down and I had this tiny,

(11:12):
no pun intended spark of anidea.
And I won't, I don't know ifeveryone who is listening has
read the book.
So I will, I don't want to giveany spoilers, but if you have,
Finished spark.
The thing that happens at thevery end, like the last line of
spark was kind of the nugget offof which it was all built.

(11:32):
Cause I started thinking about,okay, if this thing happens,
what's the fallout from that,um, what does a world look like
where something like this couldhappen and how does that change
how people interact and how, um,you know, wealth is distributed
and, and how people treat peoplewith power, like, If this is a

(11:53):
possibility in the world, whatare the sociological
consequences of that?
So that was a really interestingthread for me to pull on.
And I also, you know, in partbecause of everything that was
going on in the world, I had,um, you know, themes of
injustice and, colonization andinequality were really heavy on
my heart.

(12:13):
And I wanted to, um, tacklethose in a way that was sort of.
Separated from the baggagepeople bring in from their
everyday lives, where they, theyhave cemented themselves in a
particular position and nothingis going to push them out of
that position, you know, butwhen you come into fantasy,
that's one of the best partsabout fantasy is people can very
easily find themselves rootingfor somebody in a fantasy story

(12:37):
that they wouldn't.
in real life.
And I, I was kind of hoping tojust like close that divide

Devonnie (12:43):
Yeah.
A little more.
Right.

Penn Cole (12:45):
And maybe like work my way into their brain and
hopefully plant some seeds thatwhen they then leave this world.
and return to their everydaylives, they might look at
certain things and certaingroups of people with maybe a
little bit more compassion andempathy for what they're going
through.
So that was and has always beena really big part of why I do

(13:07):
the things that I do in mybooks.

Jordan (13:10):
I think, I

Devonnie (13:10):
shows.

Jordan (13:11):
yeah, I was just saying, it comes across

Devonnie (13:13):
comes across.
Mm hmm.

Jordan (13:15):
thinking about all of those different aspects.
And because I'm going through myreread, right?
The first time I go through it,I'm just, Eating it up so fast
because like the story is soexciting and, and I think about
all these things, but I thinkabout it and move on.
And this time going through it,cause I read it the first time
now I'm listening to it.
And so I'm able to kind of sitwith those bigger ideas even

(13:38):
more.
And it's like, I just, the wayyou tackle all of that is, is
amazing.
I think it's amazing and it'sreally well done and it's really
thorough and It's so great toread.

Penn Cole (13:50):
I appreciate that.
That's the stuff that keeps meup at night.
I mean, when I'm writing, it'snot, you know, the characters
are going to do what they'regoing to do, but I, but the
stuff that really plagues me asan author is like, am I handling
these things sensitively,thoughtfully, you know, am I
handling them respectfully?
Um, I have a lot of privilegeand so that creates blind spots

(14:14):
and I want to make sure that I'mbeing really thoughtful about
how I handle those and doing myresearch and um, you know, never
being careless with anything.
So it's something I, I'm not, Icertainly not perfect and I'm
sure there's plenty of validcriticism out there, but it's
cert, it's something that I carea lot about doing right.

Devonnie (14:32):
Right.
Yeah.
I love it because fantasy alsomakes it super digestible for
people and the fact that they'rereading.
So like, even though you'relike, oh, I'm just reading a
little book, those things aren'tgoing to stay with you.
Like you, unless you just readand go blank, like, and I know
some people might actually readlike that.
Like they read and then goblank.
But for the most part, I feellike.
There's that it's going tolinger even if you can't

(14:54):
remember why you feel you'regoing to see something you're
gonna be like, that's rubbing methe wrong way.
And it'll start in this worldthat you just digested on like,
you know, I'm just going to haveread a cute little story.
Um, so yeah, I think.
the, the power of your words andthe way you crafted the world.
It's chef's kiss.
Ooh, is that the first chef'skiss of the season?

(15:14):
Yeah.
Chef's

Jordan (15:15):
It is.

Penn Cole (15:17):
Thank

Devonnie (15:17):
Yeah.
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah.

Jordan (15:20):
Oh, yeah.
It's, I don't know, just so funto read so we've talked about
you've been through a lot andlike, it feels like quickly and
I'm sure it sometimes feelsquickly.
I'm sure for you sometimes feelslike, you know, Been going
through this for a while.
When you started out writing, soduring the pandemic and stuff,
was it just like, I'm just gonnaput this out there and see what
happens, or did you say, if I'mgoing to do this, the goal is to
get a trad deal eventually, orif not, like what was the

(15:45):
tipping point in your journeythat made you want to go into
traditional publishing andaccept that?
I mean, I know money's always athing, but like, to take, give
your baby away and like, takethat help,

Penn Cole (15:58):
Yeah, it was a, I mean, it was something I spent a
lot of time thinking aboutbefore, during, and after I
published.
I, um, I always knew I wanted toself publish.
I never really thought aboutgoing the trad route to begin
with.
I did my research and I lookedinto it and I just, I felt very
strongly that I wanted tomaintain control over my book

(16:21):
and my publishing schedule.
So, yeah.
And, you know, every aspect ofit, my covers everything.
And of course the money aspecttoo, is like a huge difference
between Indie and trad.
And so I never, like I never,you know, queried with agents or
put it on sub or anything likethat.
Um, I joined a ton of forums.

(16:42):
That were really specificallyfor indie authors and I just
learned as much as I possiblycould about self publishing and
I was really committed to that.
I certainly was seeing authorsgetting picked up by Trad and I
thought that might beinteresting, but, uh, again, I
really wanted the control andthe money.

Devonnie (17:01):
Yeah Yeah

Penn Cole (17:03):
I wasn't so, I wasn't.
Um, and so I was kind of chasingthat really, um, what was most
interesting to me from kind of atrad perspective was a lot of
publishers were doing print onlydeals where they let the authors
keep their ebook rights and insome cases, their audio book
rights, and they only handledthe print editions and not a lot

(17:27):
of publishers were doing thatwhen I got started, it was
really just bloom, who was kindof the only publisher Maybe some
other publishers were doing itlike one off or super, super
successful authors, but for themost part, it was really just
Bloom that was doing it.
And so that was kind of my goal,right?
It was like, okay, well, I want,I want this print deal with
Bloom.

(17:47):
And, um, Foreshadowing, they didnot want me.
They turned me down.
I love them.
We support them.
They're great.
They're wonderful.
We still love them.
Um, but I, when they did turn medown, I thought, okay, that ship
has sailed.
Like, that dream has passed.
I'm going to be indie and I'mgoing to commit to doing it

(18:07):
well.
Uh, and then, Mid last year, uh,Atria approached me and they are
with Simon and Schuster, one ofthe biggest publishers in the
world.
And I, as far as I knew, theydid not do print deals.
And I told my, my agent was kindof like, will you consider it?
Will you maybe give away allyour rights?
And I did a lot of soulsearching.

(18:29):
I talked to a lot of authors,um, very, very successful
authors who had different kindsof deals.
Some of them had print deals.
Some of them didn't.
And I walked away from thatfeeling very strongly that I
should hold on to my rights.
Uh, and so I told my agent, Ionly want a print deal.
If they don't want to talk abouta print deal, then I'm just
going to stay indie.

(18:50):
Well, they wanted to talk abouta print deal.
So that was, that was superunexpected.
And, uh, I mean, truly it waslike a dream deal for me.
I could not have asked for abetter setup because they have
all the resources of, you know,a massive billion dollar
publisher.
Um, but I, I get to continue tobe kind of a hybrid sort of half

(19:14):
indie, half trad

Devonnie (19:15):
the half.
Yeah,

Penn Cole (19:17):
and still hold on to control of my books and
ultimately the decision aboutwhen to publish them, how to
publish them rests with me.
So I'm so grateful to have areally good partner in them.
They get it.
They understand the newlandscape of publishing.
They're super forward thinking.
They're super supportive of meand my indie stuff.

(19:40):
Um, you know, one of theexamples is I promised everybody
that if they bought an indiecopy, right, of my books, that
they would be able to completetheir set and Atria was fully on
board with like, okay, we wantto make sure these people are
able to complete their set too,so.
So even though that's not reallysomething that publishers do,
they were like, we'll find a wayto make it happen.

(20:01):
Uh, so I'm just feel incredibly,incredibly lucky to have them in
and be working with them on thiskind of republishing.

Devonnie (20:09):
Yeah, well I love that you're like grateful and you
feel lucky, but they saw thematerial.

Penn Cole (20:15):
I mean, listen, I'm making them a ton of money.
Okay.

Devonnie (20:19):
yeah, okay, that's what I'm saying.
They,

Penn Cole (20:22):
benefiting here.

Devonnie (20:23):
yes, exactly, like I'm so happy, you're so grateful,
thank you, love that for you,bae, oh my gosh, such a kind
woman.
Atria's looking like, Gimme

Penn Cole (20:31):
all happy.
It's a win win for everyoneinvolved.

Devonnie (20:34):
beautiful relationship, so everyone's good
at something.
Yeah.
But I love that.

Jordan (20:38):
I love, that's so interesting and I think it
explains a lot about you.
So, we love following you onsocials because, and we talk
about it all the time, like,I'll get in the group chat and
I'll be like, Pen's on it again,she's calling him out, did you
see

Penn Cole (20:54):
spicy pen.

Jordan (20:56):
I was like, oh! Like, we got on and I would go, Oh, okay.
I was like, you know, she's overin Paris and she's had a whole
day of like shutting down trollson threads already and it's been
so fun to watch.
I get up, I'm like, who's pencalling out today?
I love it! And so, but Butbetween that and it's, but it's
more like sticking up forpeople, not even just people,

(21:17):
but also other authors and justthe support that you put out
into the world, and it explainsso much, all the research you
did and you, you know, It soundslike you utilized these
communities so much from dayone, to educate yourself, and I
just love the community feelthat you put out there and the

(21:39):
support.
It's, it's so refreshing to seeand it's so fun to watch.

Penn Cole (21:45):
I'm trying to be better about calling in instead
of calling out because when Iwas younger and angrier as, you
know, any good, smart, youngperson is angry at all of the
injustice in the world.
And you want to call people out.
You want to be outraged.
And I think there's a place forthat and that is an important
voice.
But as I've gotten older.
And I've I've kind of beenthrough that phase.

(22:07):
I've said, you know, I thinkit's time to start calling in
and saying, you know, instead ofyou're doing wrong, you're doing
wrong, you're doing wrong.
It's what can we do?
Right?
How do we fix this?
How do we become more solutionoriented and like focus on
making things better for peopleinstead of just being mad that
they're bad?

Devonnie (22:25):
That

Jordan (22:26):
And,

Devonnie (22:26):
they

Jordan (22:27):
I think that encapsulates it a lot better
than the way I said it becauseyou, you, but it's because it
is, because it's like an, it'smore of what you do now that you
say that it's more of anacknowledgement.
Acknowledging it and here's whatshould be happening or here, if
you're struggling with this,because this issue is happening.
Here's what you can do, and hereare the resources, and just
being so transparent about yourwhole process has, I'm sure,

(22:49):
helped a lot of authors, and,

Penn Cole (22:52):
I hope so.

Jordan (22:52):
yeah.

Devonnie (22:53):
Yeah.

Penn Cole (22:54):
like very big.
I love talking shop.
I love sharing data.
I'm such a data girl.

Jordan (22:58):
Oh, I loved when you posted

Penn Cole (23:00):
I, I love just talking about numbers and trends
and patterns and, you know,what's going on in the industry.
Um, it's my favorite thing.

Devonnie (23:10):
Yeah, I love that.
I love it.
I love it all.
I eat it up.
My favorite though is actuallywhen you troll, like that is

Penn Cole (23:17):
I do love to

Devonnie (23:18):
the discord, on threads, like I'm just, yeah,
the trolling part, yeah, yourbio on Instagram grinds my
gears.

Penn Cole (23:28):
Uh,

Jordan (23:29):
discord is off the rails, like,

Penn Cole (23:33):
calmed down so much, like,

Devonnie (23:35):
Has

Penn Cole (23:36):
had a, yes, because I haven't had a book out in a
while, it's gotten, like,relatively quiet for us.
It's quiet for

Devonnie (23:43):
Yeah, yeah,

Penn Cole (23:44):
when I, I mean, when I was, like, at the end of 2023,
when stuff was, like, reallyramping up, I almost didn't
sleep because it was justpopping around the

Devonnie (23:56):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Messages, notifications.
Yeah, I love it.

Penn Cole (24:00):
It's my favorite place.
It's like my little home.
So

Devonnie (24:03):
Yeah, yeah.
And you're always in there, andagain, your outreach, your
community, bringing people in.
Like, just Being involved withthe people who are reading your
work and also just kind of wantto support you.
I love that.
That's like one of my favoritereasons for supporting you as an
author is because you're lookingback at your community and be
like, Hi guys, I'm here.
Let's chat instead of justisolating yourself.
Like, here's some books.

(24:23):
Go read it in a corner and leaveme alone.
You know,

Penn Cole (24:25):
yeah, I mean, I, for the authors who do that, I get
it sometimes for your own mentalhealth and to protect your
creativity, you have to wallyourself off a little bit.
Um, and that's, you know,certainly something I'm still
trying to find a balance on.
But for me, like, writing is myfavorite part, but very close
after that is like interactingwith readers and, you know.
Getting to know readers and justtalking about books.

(24:48):
So I, that like recharges me andrefills me.
And so I try and do at least alittle bit of it every day if

Devonnie (24:54):
yeah.
You're, you're, you're killingit.
Speaking of readers getting toknow you and you getting to know
readers, drum roll please,because it is the time for this
or that.
All right.
These are rapid fire.
You, you can't even think aboutit.
Your brain just needs torespond.
I know, I know.
It's scary,

Penn Cole (25:13):
Capricorn, so I

Devonnie (25:15):
Yeah.

Penn Cole (25:15):
I don't really fire anything off without thinking
about it.
But all right, let's see.

Devonnie (25:20):
deliberation.

Jordan (25:21):
I always say we don't, we don't yuck people's yums
here,

Devonnie (25:24):
Mm hmm.
We don't.

Jordan (25:25):
so, even if there are judgments, that'll stay in our
head.

Penn Cole (25:29):
Got it.
it.

Devonnie (25:31):
On Jordan, I am going to judge you openly and on
camera.
I just,

Jordan (25:34):
That's true.

Devonnie (25:35):
I don't know what Jordan's talking about.
I am going to judge you.
Um, just so you know what you'regetting into.
Alright.
Let's ready.
Okay, physical or e book.

Penn Cole (25:46):
book.

Devonnie (25:48):
Oh Surprising

Penn Cole (25:50):
live in like a shoe box in Europe.
I have one inch of bookshelfspace.
Like, sorry, sorry.
It's e books.

Devonnie (25:58):
I actually wasn't expecting that.
I love that Okay, hot or icedrink.

Penn Cole (26:03):
Iced for sure.
I'm from Texas.
It's yummy.

Devonnie (26:08):
Okay.
Yeah, that makes sense Allright, which region of a Marion
would you live in?

Penn Cole (26:14):
Umbras.

Jordan (26:17):
You

Penn Cole (26:18):
I

Devonnie (26:18):
What powers do you want?

Penn Cole (26:21):
I think healing, because even though they're not,
I know, okay?
They're not as flashy.
They're not as flashy, but likeyou would never lose somebody
you care about.
You know what I mean?
Like you, your

Devonnie (26:34):
judged prematurely.
Yeah

Jordan (26:37):
Good life

Devonnie (26:38):
All right,

Penn Cole (26:39):
and you can make a lot of money too.

Devonnie (26:41):
true, okay, there we go

Penn Cole (26:43):
Okay.
Okay.

Devonnie (26:46):
Sorry, I judged too fast.
All right, this is the last onefor me.
Okay.
All right two tropes Ready?
One bed or who did this to you.

Penn Cole (26:56):
Who did this to you?

Devonnie (26:58):
Period.
Because Luthor exists.
Of course.
Yeah.

Penn Cole (27:02):
mean.

Jordan (27:03):
Alright.
Discrete cover or cartoon?

Penn Cole (27:10):
That's tough.
Usually like the originalScandalous covers.
Um, let's go with.
I don't love either of them, ifI'm being real honest.

Jordan (27:24):
That's fair!

Devonnie (27:25):
That's valid!

Penn Cole (27:26):
OK, we'll say cartoon.
There's been some cute cartoonones.

Devonnie (27:30):
That's

Jordan (27:32):
We could do like a scandalous, like,

Penn Cole (27:33):
Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Devonnie (27:36):
I hate them both.

Jordan (27:38):
yeah.
Second chance or friends tolovers?

Penn Cole (27:44):
Okay.
Second chance, but only if It'slike based on a, like a
misunderstanding or a, or asomething happened.
Not when they broke up becauselike one of them was a jerk to
the other, you know what I mean?
Like we're not looking, we'renot looking back if they're
jerks, right?
But if, if he was actually inlove with her, but she thought

(28:07):
he hated her or something likethat, I'm all in on that.

Jordan (28:10):
That, that is the correct answer, yes.
Um,

Devonnie (28:13):
mm hmm,

Jordan (28:15):
quick, name your top three book boyfriends.

Penn Cole (28:20):
Aaron Warner from Shatter Me, for sure.
Love him.
Um.

Jordan (28:28):
You can say your own, it's okay.

Penn Cole (28:30):
Oh yeah, well, I mean, Luther, obviously.
Okay,

Devonnie (28:33):
he was gonna be number one, and I was,

Penn Cole (28:35):
I didn't know.
I didn't know.
I would

Devonnie (28:38):
no,

Penn Cole (28:40):
And then, for number three, gosh, who do I love?
Oh, Max from Daughter of NoWorlds.
Um,

Jordan (28:49):
Oh, yeah.

Devonnie (28:50):
Maxentarius?

Penn Cole (28:51):
Love him.
He's so grumpy.
I love a grumpy

Devonnie (28:55):
pissed off.
He's so pissed off, but a puppy.
A

Penn Cole (28:59):
the Lost Books of Jess did like the wet cat
bracket of like MMCs and I waslike he has to win, Jess, like
this is wet, wet cat energy, ahundred percent, just looks
miserable.

Devonnie (29:12):
Yeah.

Penn Cole (29:13):
All they want in life is to sit in front of a fire
with like a warm tea and to beleft alone,

Jordan (29:20):
just sit in his garden.
No one come

Devonnie (29:22):
Yes.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Alright, that's a good topthree.
I am not judging those answersat all.

Jordan (29:28):
And just wait, just wait until you're done with, uh,
ambers, amber vehicles, uh,

Penn Cole (29:34):
yeah, I can

Jordan (29:35):
you'll have Sam Kyle.
Yeah,

Devonnie (29:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Penn Cole (29:37):
I can see this coming Yeah

Devonnie (29:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jordan (29:42):
and last one, Henri or Vance.

Penn Cole (29:46):
Henri obviously What kind of question is that?

Jordan (29:51):
we knew it!

Penn Cole (29:53):
One of them is the hero.
The other one is the

Devonnie (29:56):
Oh! So this, we've concluded the podcast with Penn

Jordan (30:02):
And

Devonnie (30:03):
Pennn

Jordan (30:05):
So

Devonnie (30:05):
is being escorted away.

Penn Cole (30:08):
Okay, maybe hero is a stretch.

Jordan (30:10):
If you hear some sirens behind you, don't worry.
you hear some

Devonnie (30:14):
no, just like a bit of a stretch.
I mean,

Penn Cole (30:17):
I

Devonnie (30:18):
what?

Penn Cole (30:19):
well,

Devonnie (30:20):
had to throw that in there.

Penn Cole (30:21):
not over.
Okay, so we'll

Devonnie (30:23):
Okay.
Yeah, we will.
Um, see if he's, okay.
I'll wait.

Jordan (30:30):
Oh, but that just reminds me, seeing someone do a
line of Henri merch, and you're,like, from, like

Penn Cole (30:37):
I buy it all.
Like I have a whole closet ofHenri merch.
I, they, they make it for mebecause I alone will keep them
in business.

Jordan (30:47):
I love you

Devonnie (30:48):
you alone.
There, there cannot be anotherHenri apologist out there.

Penn Cole (30:52):
There's some, there's some and I bet I could convert
you if I give you my whole spielon Henri.

Jordan (30:58):
You

Penn Cole (30:58):
Um,

Jordan (30:58):
had a Henri POV, I'm sure we would be Team Henri.
Like,

Devonnie (31:02):
Maybe, yeah, maybe if you understood him a little
better.
Right

Jordan (31:05):
look at pens even, like, maybe that's far.

Devonnie (31:08):
Yeah,

Penn Cole (31:08):
know.
Maybe maybe you'll get that inuh, in a future book.
I don't know.
We'll see.

Devonnie (31:14):
Well, let me hold my tongue

Penn Cole (31:16):
Did you, I'm sorry, did you

Devonnie (31:18):
I don't jordan cannot she's like nope.
Nope.
Not for me.
I'm gonna

Jordan (31:25):
too far, it went too far, it went too far, I'm sorry,

Devonnie (31:29):
I'm gonna i'ma hold back my Henri Hate just a little
because you said that because Idon't want to have to eat my
words later.
But um right

Penn Cole (31:36):
here's what I'll say, here's what I'll say briefly
about Henri.
I mean, I could talk about himfor hours, he's my favorite.
But, here's what I'll saybriefly.
We were talking earlier aboutdoing the reread, right?
And catching things that youdon't catch on the first time
you're on.
I think on the first read.
All you see Henri as is this guywho's in Luther's way, right?

(31:57):
And, and maybe the boyfriendthat we don't necessarily want
her to end up with.
Um, and that's fine.
That's totally fair because nextto Luther, like who compares?
I'm sorry.
But hopefully on the reread youcan appreciate him for The other
role that he plays in the story,which is kind of the voice of

(32:20):
the mortals who have beenoppressed, who have been punched
down, who have been fighting fortheir liberation and their
rights for so long and have notbeen heard, and they're angry.
They are angry and they arewilling to do whatever it takes
to finally be heard.
And I think if you look at Henriless as a love interest and more

(32:43):
as, you know, a mortal and thevoice of the mortals as a group,
I think you can appreciate him alittle bit differently.

Jordan (32:52):
Yeah, see, I do,

Penn Cole (32:54):
I

Devonnie (32:55):
I do now.
Yeah.

Penn Cole (32:56):
told you.

Jordan (32:57):
see, while I was never team, obviously, I was never
team Henri, as most of us are, Iwas, I didn't have the same,
like, visceral reaction as I seesome people do.
But the reread, I can understandit, but when there are, there
are a couple moves that he makesthat I'm like, I don't,

Devonnie (33:15):
Strangle

Jordan (33:17):
You've known her your whole life, and you just, like,
to, that's the border, and I, Iget what you're saying, and I'm,
but I'm just like,

Penn Cole (33:25):
we're seeing those things from Diem's POV, right?
And she's seeing what she wantsto see and not seeing what she
doesn't want to see.
Uh, and we're not necessarilyseeing his motivations because
neither of them are being superhonest with the other about what
they're up to and why they'redoing it.
And so I think if you're sittingin his shoes and you see this

(33:45):
person who was, Your most loyalfriend who grew up with you, you
two have been on the same pageabout these evil descendants
your entire lives.
And now all of a sudden she'scuddling up to them, she's
wearing their clothes and theirjewelry, and she's only hanging
out with them and not hangingout with any of her mortal
friends anymore.

(34:06):
You might feel betrayed andangry as well.
Is all I'm saying.

Devonnie (34:13):
yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm currently pissed off because now
I'm seeing it.
Okay.
Right.
I am understanding becauseyou're right the entire time
Henri has been a annoyingroadblock to Luther, but also
I've felt like he's been thisbox that has been trying to
contain Diem, but you're like,you're right.
I don't have the full pictureand I'm FUMING!

Jordan (34:33):
she ghosts him, if you really think about the timeline,
once

Penn Cole (34:36):
she abandons him.

Jordan (34:38):
him, she doesn't even send him a letter,

Penn Cole (34:40):
Yeah.

Jordan (34:41):
a letter, she go, like, it's,

Penn Cole (34:42):
Yeah.

Devonnie (34:43):
Oh no.

Penn Cole (34:44):
that.
He feels abandoned.
He feels betrayed.
And if you, you know, if youkind of get into heat in
particular, there's aconversation that they have in
heat and he kind of says that,you know what I mean?
She's upset because he's actinglike she's dead now that she's a
descendant, but is it reallyabout that?
Or is that she's dead to himbecause she left him behind?

(35:08):
Yeah.
And,

Devonnie (35:10):
Oh no!

Penn Cole (35:13):
I mean, I, this is my baby.
I love him.
I feel bad for him.
I think when it comes to Diemand Henri, they don't, there's
not one that's right or wrong.
I think they both made mistakes.
They both had good intentions.
They both screwed up and they'reboth trying their best.
As two young people who are, youknow, learning, they're each

(35:36):
other's kind of first loves.
And so.
Those, you know, don't, they'remessy sometimes.

Devonnie (35:43):
Yeah, they're just navigating the new world that
they've like, found themselvesin, so.
Good grief.
Not me liking Henri.
Ugh.
Scrub that from the

Penn Cole (35:52):
I have some Henri merch.

Jordan (35:54):
No, that's there forever.

Devonnie (35:55):
Too far! Too far! Not Henri!

Penn Cole (35:58):
code Henri10 for 10 percent off.

Jordan (36:01):
I am going to, now I know what I'm getting Dev for
her birthday this year.

Penn Cole (36:05):
Perfect.

Jordan (36:05):
you.
Yeah, I can, I can make stuff onmy Cricut.
Perfect.
I can make our own Henri merchand I'll just, it'll be perfect.

Devonnie (36:13):
Do not do that.
I don't know if I'm there yet.
I'm understanding.
Okay?
I don't know if I'm Team Henriyet.
I don't know if I'm joining Penyet.
But! I am very understanding.
I, I, like now when I do my nextreread, I'll actually look at,
look at him like that.
I'll, I'll try to see that andsee how that makes me feel.
Um, but yeah.

(36:34):
Okay.
So

Penn Cole (36:36):
you're ready to, to mea culpa.

Devonnie (36:39):
I'm so happy for me that I'll have that.
That supports.
Aren't you just a supportivequeen?
Um, okay.
So, is there a specific authorthat got you hooked on fantasy
or a specific book?
Or, I know some people it evensparks from like a TV show as a
child and then you're like,okay, I'm in this world.

Penn Cole (37:01):
No, it's definitely a very, like a book that stayed
with me just at a core level,which is Kushiel's Dart by
Jacqueline Carey.
It is like 25 years old now.
Uh, I read it when I was ateenager and, um, it was, um, It
was very, it was unlike anythingI'd ever read.
I always read fantasy and it wasespecially then very male

(37:25):
dominated.
Uh, you know, every book on theshelf pretty much was by a male
author featuring a male lead,uh, you know, with men on the
cover.
If there was a woman, she waslike scantily clad and just kind
of like, Oh, you know, thedamsel in distress who was there
for the sex scenes and then kindof pushed aside.
And I just.

Jordan (37:45):
sex scenes, not very

Penn Cole (37:46):
And not good, right?
Not boobing boobily.
Like, no,

Devonnie (37:50):
Yeah.

Penn Cole (37:51):
not.
We don't, we don't play withthat.
And so I wasn't, I loved theaspect of fantasy that was kind
of fantastical and magic anddragons and these big epic
adventures that people weregoing on.
But I, I wish that I saw morewomen in them and especially
women in roles that weren'trelegated to love interest or

(38:13):
villain.
Um, you know, like.
Catty, evil, manipulative woman.
That was kind of it.
And so that was the first book Iremember reading that was
written by a woman, had a femalemain character.
There were a ton of strong womenin there.
Some of them were good.
Some of them were bad.
It focused on issues that werereally important to women like

(38:36):
bodily autonomy and consent andsexual liberation.
Um, It was, I mean, it's verysexy, definitely very sexy.
There's a beautiful romance,absolutely stunning romance at
the heart of it.
Um, and I thought, Oh my gosh,like this, where is this kind of
book?
I want a thousand more of thisbook, you know?

(38:59):
And at the time there wasn't athousand of that kind of book.
There were just a very smallhandful of authors doing it.
Um, in particular, because.
There was only a couple ofpublishers were publishing
fantasy and it was all maleeditorial staffs and, you know,
they were choosing books thatappealed to men.
And so just these very few womenwere slipping through.

(39:22):
And that is kind of when Ithought this is what I want to
write.
This is what I want to read.
This is my genre.
Like, I'm a romantic.
We didn't have that name for itback then, but I've been a
romantic early for 20 years.

Devonnie (39:37):
yeah,

Penn Cole (39:37):
And it, it never left me that, that belief that this
should be a bigger thing.
And then when Avatar kind ofblew up over the pandemic, I
think it, it shined a muchbigger light on romanticy and
people realize there is fantasyout there that really caters
more to a female audience.

(39:58):
Um, and tells our stories andthat was when I knew like, it's
time to strike, it's time to

Devonnie (40:04):
yeah, this is now, yeah,

Penn Cole (40:06):
I always wanted to write it, but that was when I
thought I can write this andactually have a career doing it.

Devonnie (40:13):
aww, I need to look at you, I love that, makes me
happy,

Penn Cole (40:19):
Young

Jordan (40:19):
going to get us.

Penn Cole (40:20):
happy.

Jordan (40:21):
I'm gonna get us pom poms because I feel like we're
always Yes, so we need to Ithink that needs to be

Devonnie (40:27):
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Jordan (40:28):
like I could just picture the pom poms.
Yeah um Yeah, I love that.
Uh, you had that moment and nowi'm gonna have to look that book
up because

Devonnie (40:38):
Yeah, I know me too, right?
I like I want

Penn Cole (40:40):
so it was a trilogy, Kushiel's Dart, I forget what
the next two are called, um, butthen actually just last August
in 2024, because romanticy kindof got big again, she actually
released a new book, which isKushiel's Dart from the male
love interest POV.
So which is fantastic, I know,so it's cool to see even these

(41:04):
kind of older books get aresurgence and get new

Devonnie (41:07):
Right, right because we have new readers who are
looking specifically for that.
I love that.
That makes me happy

Jordan (41:15):
Um, do you have favorites from this last year?
What are a few of your top

Penn Cole (41:21):
I didn't do a ton of reading last year because I was
in drafting mode the entireyear, the

Devonnie (41:28):
Yeah

Penn Cole (41:29):
Um, the ones that I, that really stood out to me
were, I, I didn't read a ton inmy genre especially.
Especially, um, because I trynot to read fantasy while I'm
writing fantasy or else linescan get crossed.
Uh, but Witch Collector by ShuraSawiks is, was really, I know, I
know, and she's just phenomenal.

(41:51):
I love her as a human being, soit was great when her book was
also really good.

Devonnie (41:57):
Yes.

Penn Cole (41:58):
when those two things match up.
Uh, and then kind of outside ofthat, I read a lot of Romance
like rom coms and contemporaryromance and this one I was so
unexpected and I loved it.
It's called That Time I GotDrunk and Yeeted a Love Potion
at a Werewolf by KimberlyLemming.

Jordan (42:16):
Yeah.

Penn Cole (42:18):
All of her books have like the funniest titles and
like the cutest covers and likeI feel like people discredit
them because they look silly,right?
They look like they would beweirder, sillier, fluff.
And they're not! They're likethese beautiful stories and
these amazing characters.
And like, ugh, I just adorethem.

Devonnie (42:41):
See, I just knew we were besties.
And you know, so the craziestthing actually, I just have to
do this side note is that, sothe reason I even know you exist
in the world as a person is myother best friend, Glenn, um,
who I think has probablymessaged you a couple of times
as well, but she's the one whotold me, Hey, This author, I
just read the series.

(43:01):
You have to read it.
And Sharisa Weeks is also herfavorite, author and that The
Witch Collector series.
So I know Glenn, if you'relistening, she's for us.
Pen is for us.
Do you hear that?
Yeah.
We love her.
Yep.

Jordan (43:15):
you hear it?
Can you hear it?
The future Glenn is squealingright now and so excited.
I

Devonnie (43:19):
is screaming.
I bet you she's screaminglistening to this right now.
Okay.
And then, so have you met any ofyour favorite authors?
Like are there authors whoyou've been like, Oh, I love
their work or I've read one oftheir books and then you've met
them in real life?

Penn Cole (43:36):
I've only done one event, so I've only had a chance
to meet a few of them.
Now I've talked to a lot of themonline, which is crazy to me
because as a reader, you know, Ihad, I've fangirled over so many
of these people and now I'mlike, DMs chatting with them
about

Devonnie (43:55):
Not sliding Diems.

Penn Cole (43:57):
Absolutely mind blowing to me.
Um, I actually recently had oneof them who I liked I'm obsessed
with.
I love her books and I mean I'veread everything she's written.
Who I, I mentioned to in acomment somewhere like, oh you
should read this book by thisperson.
And she responded, she was like,you've read my books?

(44:18):
Oh my god, like you, Penn Colesread my books.
I was like, what?
It was like such a funny momentbecause I feel like this nobody,
right?
This just reader who's obsessedwith these authors and that's
not how they perceive meanymore.
Um, So that was a kind of areally fun moment, but I think
the only people, I mean, I met aton of people at Romantic Con

(44:42):
Orlando.
Um, I met Charissa, which wasgreat.
I met LJ Andrews, who if youhaven't chatted with her, she's
so funny.
She, everything she says crackedme up.
She is low key hilarious.
Um, who else?
There were so many really coolpeople at that con that I got to

(45:02):
meet and I'm really excitedabout this year because
especially Romanticist Con LA islike stacked with incredible,
incredible authors.
So I'm, I'm pumped about that.

Devonnie (45:14):
You'll meet some new people.
That's exciting.
Yeah.
That's really exciting.
I love that for you.

Jordan (45:18):
Yeah.
Back to your own work.
We talk a lot and we hear a lotabout burn where, and we know
that there is stuff written,obviously we got an exclusive
quote, but where is burn in Its

Penn Cole (45:34):
So I don't want to say too much because I, I worry
about making people think it'sgoing to be, I worry about
giving people any kind of falseimpression about when it's going
to release, and I don't want todisappoint anyone because we've
already had to delay it so much.
I don't want to do it again.
Um, I will say it is verysubstantially complete, not

(45:58):
complete, but like we're veryclose.
Um, and we have a, Release datetentatively internally that
we're working to hit.
I don't know if it's going tohappen or not.
Um, but hopefully this year,hopefully

Devonnie (46:17):
Oh, okay, hopefully, okay.

Penn Cole (46:19):
but I, there's just, there's so many, especially now
with like the trad deal, there'sso many pieces that have to be
in place in order to say, Thisdate

Devonnie (46:30):
This

Penn Cole (46:31):
and it will not change because it's no longer
just me, right?
There's like a team of

Jordan (46:35):
Mm hmm.

Penn Cole (46:36):
Um, and so I have to get sign off from so many
different people to say, yes, wecan be ready by this date.
And that, um, they're all kindof waiting on me right now for
me to say the book is final,final, final, no more changes
ready to go.
And as soon as I do that, it'scompletely my fault.
Nobody else is.

Jordan (46:55):
No, and I

Penn Cole (46:56):
soon as I do that, then they all start doing their
jobs.

Jordan (46:59):
yeah, I feel like a lot of fans and readers don't
realize That it's not just youfinish writing the story and put
it out.
I don't think a lot of peoplerealize the process and all the
steps that have to happen beyondjust getting the original story
on page, like the edits and thegoing back and then like

(47:19):
formatting and all thesedifferent steps.
I don't think people reallyunderstand what all is involved.
And so

Penn Cole (47:27):
a long, long

Jordan (47:28):
making, making

Penn Cole (47:29):
And sometimes it can go quickly, like with Spark it
went, well it didn't go quickly,it was like two years, but it,
because it was a book one, Icould, I had a lot more freedom
to just do whatever, you know,and get it out there.
This is the last chance I havewith these characters, with this
world.
I mean, it is done after this.

(47:50):
It is done done.
So, I mean, maybe there will bea spinoff in the future, but it
won't be.
It won't be like these maincharacters, right?
I want them to have, if theylive, I want them to have peace.
So,

Devonnie (48:03):
bad if they live

Penn Cole (48:05):
listen, okay?
It's a war.
Everybody can't

Jordan (48:08):
I love you so much.
I keep saying it, but this islike my, I love it.

Devonnie (48:13):
I was so annoyed

Penn Cole (48:15):
it's war, baby.
I

Jordan (48:17):
kinds of readers.

Penn Cole (48:18):
blood's gotta be shed.

Devonnie (48:20):
So I okay I totally understand like people being
well I don't understand peoplebeing jerks online about the
book not being released that Iwill understand but I get it
because that cliffhanger

Penn Cole (48:30):
I know.
I did this to myself.
I

Devonnie (48:33):
You did it to yourself The cliffhanger, it's, it's been
tearing me up since I read it,but number two, you also just
pretty much answered anotherquestion I had, which was like,
what would be next after this?
Like, I didn't know if you wouldadd another book at the end or
like say, Oh yeah, two morebooks or like three more books.
So the fact that this is goingto be the

Penn Cole (48:55):
no.

Jordan (48:56):
I love that you're doing that though.
I love that you're doing thatand you're

Devonnie (48:59):
true.
Yeah,

Jordan (49:01):
To have a sense of just finality, I think, without
trying to be like, Here's alittle more.
Here's a little more.
Oh, surprise! Here's more! Like,I just love the closing of that

Penn Cole (49:14):
Yeah, I get why authors do that, kind of stay in
one world or with one group ofcharacters for a long time, but
I think Creatively that's a box,you know, and I that I kind of
want to break out of like I'vedone a lot with this world And
this magic system and all thatand I kind of am ready to like
do something different and alsojust like from a practical

(49:37):
Business point, the, the morebooks you have in a world, the
harder it is for new readers,the more intimidating it is for
new readers to enter into that,you know, if they need to read,
you know, two trilogies and thena duology and then two
standalones and a prequel.
It, it, it's too much sometimesfor a lot of people.
And so I think it's nice to havea lot of different entry points

(50:01):
into your, you know, yourwriting so that, new people who
Maybe didn't want to or didn'thave the time to read like a
four book series before canstart fresh with me

Devonnie (50:14):
Yeah.
And feel like.
I can actually finish this.
I can do this.
It's not too intimidating.

Penn Cole (50:19):
Yeah, and feel like they're getting a full story and
not like, oh, well, I'm missingthings because I didn't read
that first series.

Devonnie (50:26):
Right.

Jordan (50:27):
As

Devonnie (50:28):
that you're taking so long with or with burn, because
like, I feel like you'reprobably going to be able to
wrap it up so nicely for us and

Penn Cole (50:34):
trying so hard.

Devonnie (50:37):
guess apparently

Penn Cole (50:38):
I have dug myself.
I mean I have dug myself into amillion graves because I had all
these complex plot lines and allthese subplots and every, every
single Almost every namedcharacter, right?
Every kind of major characterhas their own plotline, has
their own arc.
And that makes it fun to read inthe books, because they get very

(51:00):
fleshed out.
It's a nightmare to write at the

Devonnie (51:03):
Yeah.

Penn Cole (51:04):
they all have to resolve, and like, not

Devonnie (51:08):
You have to go back.

Penn Cole (51:09):
pages.

Devonnie (51:10):
Right.
Right.
Or, I mean, to tell you thetruth, I don't

Penn Cole (51:13):
Listen.

Devonnie (51:13):
thousand.
I'm not going to lie.
Okay.
I ate up that 1000 page book.
Like how fast, how fast did I, Iflew through that.
So

Penn Cole (51:23):
not going to be much shorter, so

Devonnie (51:25):
yeah.

Penn Cole (51:26):
you're

Devonnie (51:26):
Love to hear it.
Yeah.

Jordan (51:29):
I'm so excited.
And now I have all thesetheories about who's not gonna
make it, and that's reallyexciting for me.
Just because I feel like, who,who would be, like,

Devonnie (51:39):
Henri's

Jordan (51:40):
is gonna be done?
I don't think so.
I think he's gonna

Devonnie (51:43):
Yeah, I know.
Yep, I think he's gonna behappy.

Jordan (51:47):
his new replacement healer, and

Devonnie (51:49):
Mm hmm.
I forgot about her.

Jordan (51:54):
the person who took her job, the person who took her
job,

Penn Cole (51:58):
Lana's

Devonnie (51:58):
And then took her man.
Is she innocent?
She's a spy.

Jordan (52:04):
She, no, listen, listen, on

Penn Cole (52:06):
all spies.
They're all spies.

Devonnie (52:08):
ha.

Jordan (52:10):
Dev, on the reread, she asks, Diem, Oh, are you still
engaged to Henri?
Like

Devonnie (52:18):
right nosy

Jordan (52:19):
And I'm

Devonnie (52:19):
right nosy.
Why are you

Jordan (52:21):
something was going on

Devonnie (52:22):
Yeah

Penn Cole (52:23):
Lana was like, uh oh.
I was writing that knowing whatI was knowing.
I was like, oh no, Lana's like,oh shit.

Devonnie (52:33):
whatever dad yeah, oh

Penn Cole (52:37):
still together.

Devonnie (52:38):
Yeah, right Right, exactly.
Henri, little dirty dog.
And Lana, they deserve eachother.
I know,

Penn Cole (52:45):
but it's not like Diem was, let's remember what
Diem was up to during

Devonnie (52:50):
I know, I know, I know.
Let me, but it's Luther.
I mean, okay,

Penn Cole (52:55):
Lutherkiss, post

Jordan (52:57):
hey.
Don't be an Apollo.
Don't.

Penn Cole (53:00):
Okay,

Devonnie (53:01):
he's just magic.
There's something magical, okay.
I, my, my sister Diem, She wasfighting for her life with that
man.
She couldn't

Penn Cole (53:09):
I know,

Devonnie (53:09):
She couldn't resist him.
He was

Penn Cole (53:11):
but she was, she was the first of the two of them

Devonnie (53:15):
You're right.

Penn Cole (53:16):
Okay.
So

Devonnie (53:17):
You're right.
You're

Penn Cole (53:18):
we support women's wrongs, but

Devonnie (53:20):
We do.

Penn Cole (53:21):
I mean,

Devonnie (53:23):
You're right.
You're right.
Wow, Henri.
Might be a good guy.

Penn Cole (53:28):
I mean, he's at least no worse.

Devonnie (53:31):
Yeah, he's no worse than Diem you're right no
because you're right foreverything that Diem was doing
He was like they were matchingeach other essentially and just
being lost in

Jordan (53:40):
and that's why she was not mad at Henri at the, in the
end.
When she found out with themtogether.
Sorry, spoiler.
When,

Penn Cole (53:48):
Oh yeah.
I think that ship has sailed.

Devonnie (53:51):
Yeah

Penn Cole (53:53):
Oops.

Jordan (53:53):
anyways, but that's why she couldn't fault him for
things.
Right?
Because she, she felt, she felta sense of relief.
Like, I was going through this,you did the same,

Penn Cole (54:02):
it's like when you break up with somebody, even if
you dumped them, right?
And even if you know you don'twant to be with them, when you
see them with somebody new, youhave that feeling of like, Hmm,
you

Devonnie (54:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah

Penn Cole (54:15):
absolutely don't want to be in that person's

Devonnie (54:18):
Right, right.
The ship has sailed.
Yeah,

Penn Cole (54:20):
still that feeling of like, oh, so I think she had
that sense of like, it's hard tosee the man that I once cared
about and saw myself with, withsomebody else, but then I don't
want to be there.
And actually I have somethingbetter.

Jordan (54:37):
Yeah.
And she felt,

Devonnie (54:38):
so

Jordan (54:38):
but I feel like, tell me if I'm wrong, a little bit of
part of her felt validated inher own actions

Penn Cole (54:44):
Oh, 1, 000%.
1,

Devonnie (54:48):
chomped on, she's like, oh, he's doing that?
Okay, good.
Then me and, you know, yeah, forsure.
There was some

Penn Cole (54:52):
she'd been beating herself up.
Like, let's remember what shewas up to before that moment.
There were, there were

Devonnie (55:00):
Things.
Yeah, there were things.
Without spoilers.
Exactly.

Penn Cole (55:03):
been beating herself up a little bit over it.
And I think that was like thereleasing of the guilt.

Devonnie (55:09):
Yeah.
For her.
Okay.
All right.
I'm gonna hold my tongue onHenri.
Not too much on Henri, Dev.
In 2025, giving Henri grace.

Jordan (55:17):
give him space to be himself.
Just, you don't have to

Devonnie (55:21):
not gonna hate him.
I'm not gonna.
Yeah.
I'm gonna just see.
We're gonna see how this allends.
Okay.
So we'll just have to wait andsee how Penn decides to wrap up
Henri's story and everyoneelse's story.
And we're really excited for thenew book.
So are there.
Is there anything else you wantto, did you want to read another
quote?
Did you, did you have somethingelse

Penn Cole (55:41):
up the document here

Devonnie (55:43):
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just start from the beginningactually.
Yeah, yeah.

Penn Cole (55:49):
I will say the first, the first three chapters are on
my website.
So

Devonnie (55:53):
They are.

Penn Cole (55:54):
wants a little sneak preview, you can get it at
penncole.
com slash newsletter and you canread both the bonus chapter from
Glow and then the three previewchapters from Burn.
Uh, so once you finish heat, gocheck them out.

Devonnie (56:11):
Yeah.
Are there any, share yoursocials with us.
We'll have them linked in theepisode description and stuff,
but for our listeners, where canthey find you and connect with
you and join this amazingcommunity?

Penn Cole (56:22):
Sure.
I am at author Penn Cole on allof the social media platforms.
my website is penncole.
com.
I'm most active on Instagram andon my discord, which is linked
on my website and on myInstagram bio.
it's an open reader group foranybody who wants to join.
It is chaos.
It is madness.
It's slightly a cult, but, um,you know, in a fun way,

Devonnie (56:46):
We're all happy to be there though.
We're happy to be there.
We're all happy to be there.
Mm hmm.

Jordan (56:52):
the overlord every

Devonnie (56:53):
Yeah.

Penn Cole (56:54):
without the death or the sex scandals or any of

Devonnie (56:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There are sometimes penises,

Penn Cole (57:02):
There's lots of

Devonnie (57:03):
gonna Yeah.

Penn Cole (57:05):
for work, that

Jordan (57:06):
there are pets.
There are pet pictures if you'reinto that.
So,

Penn Cole (57:10):
Yes.
It's

Devonnie (57:11):
Yeah.
Join.

Penn Cole (57:15):
This is a great

Devonnie (57:15):
us over there.
You right?

Penn Cole (57:17):
and pets

Devonnie (57:18):
Yeah.

Penn Cole (57:21):
pretty much sums us up over there at pen pals.

Devonnie (57:24):
Yep.
Love it.

Jordan (57:25):
thank you so much for joining.
Like this has been so fun andwe're so honored to have you on.
So thank you and thank youeveryone for listening to us
ramble.
about and with Penn Cole.
If you're looking for moreRomance Recs, be sure to follow
us on Instagram and threads andfollow us or subscribe wherever

(57:45):
you get your podcasts.
You can find our favorite bookrecs from our episodes as well
as behind the scenes content.
Again, that's at Romance RecsPod, so be sure to give us a
follow and we'll be back in acouple weeks.
Bye!

Penn Cole (58:00):
for having me.

Devonnie (58:00):
Bye.