S02.28: Lesson #15: Getting Arrested for Murder Is Only a Yellow Flag

In which Caroline and Hannah attend Old School School, study Morning Glory by LaVyrle Spencer, and yet again represent the two wolves living inside you: a frolicking frog and a twerking toad.

Reminders:

- Check out our Old School School Syllabus and read along with us! Tune in on December 8th for Lesson #16: The Bride by Julie Garwood.

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Intro: (00:00)

✪ Lesson #15: Morning Glory by LaVyrle Spencer - (7:00)

Outro: (1:16:12)

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(Disclaimer: Caroline works for Forever Publishing; all opinions are our own and not affiliated with any other party. Image by Freepik)

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
You can't see the dance that she's dancing, but she is dancing.

(00:05):
A little squiggly.
Just grooving.
She's just grooving.
Doing a little wiggly worm.
Yeah.
That's the vibe.
It's a wiggly worm kind of day.
It's a wiggly worm Wednesday.
Nice.
While we're recording this, yeah.
Yeah, it's not when you're...
Well, you could be listening to it on a wiggly worm Wednesday.
We don't know.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(00:25):
Twerking Toad Friday?
No.
Oh.
I mean, I think Friday was a T. I'm losing my mind slowly.
It's fine.
Twerking Toad Friday.
Frolicking Frog Friday.
What is your obsession with amphibians?
Well, you were wiggling worm.
I don't know.

(00:46):
Worms not an amphibian?
It's not.
I just couldn't think of a F. Like a frog, but what other animal?
I don't know.
Don't put me on the spot like this.
Right?
So like frog.
The one...
I don't know about the twerking toad.
We're both wearing green.
We are.
We are very green.
Tiger's Elf, are you a twerking toad or a frolicking frog?

(01:09):
You have two wolves inside you and one is a toad and one is a frog.
Frog and toad.
Ugh.
We are frog and toad.
That's so true.
Love those guys.
I should honestly go back and read them.
They were spitting bars.
They knew what was going down.
I loved frog and toad.
They were twerking, they were frolicking, they were spitting bars.

(01:31):
You said you weren't a frog and toad kid.
What were you?
No.
So you were something.
I don't remember.
I don't remember this conversation.
You said you just...
I can't remember.
You read something and then you were like... because you never read...
I don't know.
I never read frog and toad.
I mean I was like a Peter Rabbit Beatrix Potter kid.
That's what it was.
That's the comparison I made.
It was Peter Rabbit.
Yup.

(01:52):
They have similar vibes from what I can... like aesthetically.
It's like what if we were all little woodland creatures wearing our cute little cottage
core outfits and doing our cute little cottage core things.
That's very...
I can't imagine.
Except there are... are there humans in the frog and toad universe?
I don't think so.
Yeah, there are humans in the Beatrix Potter one.
Because Mr. McGregor, the farmer, who tries to murder, question mark, Peter Rabbit.

(02:17):
Just give him a nice little hit on the head.
Little up tap.
Well, in his defense, Peter Rabbit was eating his vegetable garden.
After his mom told him not to, she was like, don't go in there.
And then he lost his jacket.
I actually don't remember most of what happens in Peter Rabbit.
I might be making all of this up.

(02:38):
I know he goes into the garden and he gets back and his mom and his three sisters are
like, oh my god, and then she like yells at him.
I think he gets his cousin into it too.
Peter.
I don't think frog and toad ever dealt with mortality.
So I don't think that happened.
I think they were just like drinking their coffee and like tea and bicycling a lot.

(02:58):
Like, I just I do find it interesting, like, are kids these days still reading them?
Because they are like the illustrations are so old fashioned.
Like I can't imagine a scary child today, sitting down and reading frog and toad and
like having like love for it.
But maybe I'm too old.

(03:21):
I don't know.
Who's to say?
Who is to say?
Another thing of youth, American Girl dolls, that can be your segue that maybe kids play
with still.
I don't know if they do.
But when I was listening to this book in the 19, it was in like the 1940s, The Morning
Glory, I just could not stop thinking about Molly, our poor American girl stuck in the

(03:46):
middle of World War Two.
Oh, I was not a big American girl.
I had a couple.
I mean, I never had the dolls.
I had like I had Felicity because Felicity was a horse girl.
Yeah, she was.
I read her book.
I think I really wanted her best friend.
I think her friend was Elizabeth because she had like a cool like pink colonial dress.
Mostly.

(04:06):
I was like, I want that.
I never got Elizabeth.
Didn't really know any of the I had got.
So oh, I know what it was.
I was never I didn't have like any of the actual.
Actually, I think I did have the Felicity book, but that was really it.
But there was a brief period of time where the McDonald's Happy Meal toys were like little
mini books and then like a whole it was elaborate.

(04:27):
It was like a whole like paper doll situation with like different settings that you could
set up.
It was crazy.
And I think I collected all of them because I made us keep going back.
And I send my parents to go see if they had the ones I was missing.
I definitely don't maybe I still have those in with my American girl.
I don't think I have my stuff.
I have American girl dolls.

(04:49):
I had a my twin.
Oh, yeah.
Which was like, I think it's the same company question mark, but not the same.
Maybe it's a whole separate company.
I thought of them as like the same, but I was a child.
So who's to say?
I don't know.
It's those big dolls that you designed to be your twin and then you get matching clothes
and stuff.
Also, she had a horse.

(05:09):
I know, but it was it was very large.
It was like almost as big as me at that period in my life.
Oh, I was thinking of like you right now.
No, no, no.
It's a big child toy.
I mean, the doll was big.
It was substantial.
Really?
Yeah, it was.
I think it was bigger than American dolls.

(05:31):
Yeah, I remember it being large.
Large and in charge.
Yeah, I had my first one was like Marisol, I think.
And I like had her book.
And then maybe I got Julie because she was the 70s one and she was all about saving the
Eagles.
She had like a Nintendo DS game.
I always played that.
Saved some saved some Eagles in my day.

(05:52):
Macromade.
Got to love the 70s.
Yeah.
And I think I had Mia, who is an ice skater.
And then Rebecca, who looked like who was the one who had like the green eyes and brown
hair.

(06:12):
So that was like all I was really working with because there wasn't much else.
So she was my twin.
And now I have bangs.
So I don't want to play with you anymore.
Now I'm Molly.
My friends were like we should do an American Girl party where we all just dress up like
them.

(06:33):
And I was like looking.
I was like there's one with bangs.
And then I was like, oh, it's you, Molly.
I think I had read like a few of her books because the term Victory Garden like pinged
something in my brain.
I was like, oh my God, I remember her being very concerned about the Victory Gardens.
So yeah.
AP US history.

(06:54):
Nothing remembered.
Molly's American Girl doll book.
That's my history book.
Honestly, and Morning Glory by Leveril Spencer.
Yeah.
Welcome to Romance Your TVR.
It is us.
We're back.
Long pause.
We're gone.
We have exited the chat.
We're back.
We've got another old school episode.
We read Morning Glory by Leveril Spencer, which is a 1991 historical romance set in

(07:18):
the 40s in Georgia.
We're back.
We're back.
We've got another old school episode.
We read Morning Glory by Leveril Spencer, which is a 1991 historical romance set in the 40s
in Georgia.
Spoilers, ahoy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What a book.
I was a fantastic book.
It was.
I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't to cry that much.

(07:47):
Yeah.
It was like everything that I wanted the Lorraine Heath one reread to be.
Because I remember I loved the first half of the Lorraine Heath one and then I really
it just went wrong.
So wrong.
And I can't really remember why, which is a good thing.
But like the Lorraine, the Texas Lorraine Heath.

(08:07):
Yeah.
It went wrong because she married his brother.
That's what it was.
Yep.
Fun.
Fun times for all of us.
I couldn't because I had read another Western that was like written today and she also like
was or he was like, yeah, you can go because she was the male or bride for his brother.
But then he ended up with her and then he like felt guilty.
So then it was a whole and I was like, this is no, I don't want that.

(08:30):
So I was like, is that the Texas Glory one from Lorraine?
So apparently two Westerns share that mentality and it's a big no.
But the beginning of that book, I just really loved how because he gave like Kit McBride
vibes.
This one kind of just like the very soft just characters.
I don't know, they're two lonely people and they just found that family.

(08:56):
So this one really, the relationship never like they never, both of them never made me
angry.
Love those two.
I'm happy for you because that's always a risk.
Me too.
Honestly, I was like, it was actually like I got to chapter 13 and I was like it could
the book could end here and like it could be like a perfect novella because like so

(09:18):
much had already happened.
Like it was like after the goodnight kisses between the kids and him and like, right.
And it was like, I think it was like chapter 13 was around.
What if I cry, Leverle?
What then?
I know.
I know that got me.
And so everything got me.
She would write things.

(09:38):
I know.
There were multiple occasions where she would do like, like she would give you both of their
thoughts at the same time, where she would be thinking like, oh, like I'm ugly and pregnant
and he doesn't want me.
And he would be thinking like, oh, I'm a convict.
Like she doesn't want me and she's telling you this at the exact same time, like a kind
of parallel, like back and forth.
And I'm like, what if I just start weeping?

(10:00):
Yeah.
And I did children and he didn't know what to do, but he loved them so much.
And then they loved him.
And then he delivered her baby and she was like, it's your baby now.
And he was like, and he was so worried and stressed and like so diligent about like,
so diligent, like cleaning like his hands.

(10:21):
Like he was so reading books in the librarian.
Like God, the librarian.
I know.
Like there was so much happening.
And honestly, the audiobook while being like 16 hours went by so fast.
It was a banger.
I think I was.
I think I was able.
Yeah, I was able to listen to it at like 2.5.
I got it.
Like even three at the end, because like the narrator talked like she was a very good narrator

(10:43):
and like it did not seem fast going that speed.
Like sometimes like when I'm at like 2.5 or three, like I'm aware it doesn't sound great.
I'm just doing it to get done.
But like this one, it just sounded right at that speed, which was just a blessing because
16 hours wasn't going to happen.

(11:04):
Yeah, she was chunky.
And yet am I mad about it?
No, no.
Like, and it's weird because as I was listening slash reading, I was like, there's a lot of
detail about like the work that he's doing on the farm and like really getting into like
the nitty gritty step by step.

(11:25):
He does this, he does this, he does that.
Or like, sometimes it was what she was doing.
And like, things that I feel like in another book, I would be like, I don't care.
Please get to the plot.
But instead, for some reason, it just was like, and now I'm going to immerse you in
this 1940s farm.
That's and I ate it up.

(11:46):
I just read Through the Storm by Beverly Jenkins.
And like, that's also like how I feel, right?
With like, like with Beverly Jenkins is like, the history that you learn and just the day
to day things, like the way she writes them felt very similar to this almost.
Like, because you're reading it.
And I'm just like, why am I caring about this?
But I'm like, so invested.

(12:06):
Yeah.
And so I definitely felt well, in no similarity plot wise or whatever, but just making me
care about things.
I feel like there was a little bit of similarity plot wise actually, not with Through the Storm,
but with Beverly Jenkins just throwing in a wild third act.
I do agree, because you knew something was coming.

(12:28):
And that's the only part that I didn't like wasn't a fan of.
Like I don't mind a wild courtroom moment, but I was just like, I didn't need it.
But like it wasn't.
I thought about this a lot because I initially was like, why are we doing this?
Like I don't need this whole.
I do think it was a little bit long, like that entire sequence I could have done with

(12:50):
a little bit less.
So I think that's just Leveril Spencer's stuff, like you're going to get all the detail
and we're going to really sit with it.
And that's fine.
The more I thought about it, though, the more I think that it was imperative.
I think we had to have it.
Because of all the things that it brought up.

(13:12):
Because of the things that brought it.
I was thinking about your point that I think came up in like the proposition where you
were talking about the character, like the third act has to be them facing like the worst
imaginable thing.
And that's exactly what it was here.
And it's both of like he.
Has to have this woman that he loves not trust him.

(13:33):
Even for a second.
It was just a second, but it was enough.
Well, my life is ruined and nothing is worth living for now.
And so we had to have him because otherwise, if she had just told him like, yeah, of course,
I trust you, like, but you never know that for certain until it actually gets tested.
Well, she would actually respond.
And the only way you could have that is if somebody gets murdered and it might have been

(13:55):
him.
Well, exactly.
And like you make it because it flips it on its head because you think, oh, this guy who
is just in jail for was like five or like four or five years, like his worst fear would
be going back to jail.
And maybe that was for a little bit.
And then as the book goes on, his worst fear is her not trusting him and like loving him
like that.
So then you're like, oh, God.

(14:16):
Yes, he's laying in jail thinking like, honestly, lock me up.
Like, I don't care.
Yeah.
He's like, this is like I like I've been dealt the like the worst blow like that will ever
happen to me.
So like I am a shell.
And then she number one, this like man that now she's fallen in love with has shot her
out.
And she's like, OK, that's one blow.
And then two, she has to like go into the town, sell that house, like befriend or like

(14:41):
not befriend, but like talk to the people.
And then it turns out like, oh, a lot of them were just like me and kids and now are like,
oh, hey, I'm really sorry that I was like awful to you.
I would love to help your like war hero husband get out of jail.
Which is crazy that this all happens after he was conscripted into going to fucking a

(15:02):
World War two.
He did go to war.
This bitch, me, did not remember World War fucking two.
See, I knew as soon as there was like a mention of I don't remember.
I think it had come up before they went to the movies.
At some point, it like just makes a mention of like, yeah.
Oh, they're like we might go to war.

(15:25):
There might be a draft.
And I was like, this man is about to get drafted and it's going to be devastating.
And it was I was unwell.
I also was unwell.
The chapters of letters, him leaving and being like, now go sit under the tree because like,
that's how I want to remember you.

(15:47):
I was just so upset for them that she had just had that baby and then he wasn't going
to get to experience like years of babies.
And I'm like, OK, well, the only two I'm like, we're at like, what, 40 percent here or like,
however, I don't really remember how far we were.
But I'm like, OK, the war lasted half or so over half.
So I'm like, the war lasted till 1945.
This is 1942.

(16:08):
What's going to happen to this poor man to get him sent back home?
Yeah, because I don't think we're staying till 45.
And so like what and like it was less devastating.
What happened?
Like I. I was more like scared than I think what happened.
But still like not good for him.
Not good for any of them.

(16:28):
I was just like, don't send this man to war after he finally slept with his wife.
They send the war.
Sent to war. And that is like a very sensitive like World War
Two. My grandpa fought in World War Two and I have heard things that make it.
And like I have lots of members of my family in the military.
So that's always like a very sensitive thing for me.

(16:54):
Yeah. And I was like, what if I just cry?
It hurt. And then I did like the.
Or like the same thing with waking up in the night and also like never really talking to her
about it, which just rung like so true to like my grandpa had stories that he would tell
about like, oh, you know, I have this piece of shrapnel that had been, you know, in my wherever
and what. But like they talk about how he like woke up screaming for basically the rest of his life

(17:18):
periodically and never really talked about why.
Like, no, nobody knows why.
That was not a thing that was discussed.
And then you watch the musical bandstand.
We can all cry together.
And you get the then you get the drama of us like being in 2023, understanding PTSD.

(17:42):
Yeah, a lot better than was understood back then.
And knowing that he's being pursued by Lula.
And then you're like in her head when she like goes up to sneak behind him.
And then I was like, oh, Lula.
And then you and then literally in the text.
Lula the whole time, the whole book.

(18:03):
Every time Lula did.
Honestly, I was like, yeah, girl, like, do I like, you know, but you're not like a villain.
Like, you know, that was my one.
I love the likes that shamey vibe.
It was the like comparing like you have to have like the very good.
Right. What was the main heroine's name?

(18:25):
Ellie. Ellie.
Yes, you had to have her who would never do any of this and then compare it to Lula.
So like that was the dated element.
But I mean, I've read it in.
Like we've read it several times and like it works different in different books.
And like it was that's the only thing I really didn't like about this.
Yeah, I agree.
Was that it?
And especially the way it was presented as like a like almost sickness, like she's mentally

(18:50):
unwell because she's constantly horny and constantly like chasing down men to sleep with.
I'm like, I understand why, like in the trial, they kind of had to bring up that point to
be like throwing reasonable doubt on it being his child.
Like I get that aspect to a certain extent, but there was a lot of it that I was like.
Yeah. Yeah, that was the only thing where like when she was first introduced, I was like,

(19:14):
gosh, darn it. Yeah.
Because like you knew what I didn't know that far was going to happen.
Yeah. But then you get to a certain point, you're like, oh, so that's going to happen.
And then when she sneaks up behind him and I was like, Lula, I'm like, I don't know what's
going on. I was worried that he was going to actually kill her.

(19:34):
Yeah, I thought it was going to be like he freaked out and killed her.
And then we have like an oh, no, like he's he's done it again.
I was scared.
So then I loved it when the text was like, oh, yeah, but she doesn't know that you really
shouldn't sneak up on someone who's expecting a bomb to go off at any minute.

(19:55):
And I was like, yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
Yeah. And so like it.
And then I'll say, OK, well, they kind of made it out of that.
And then you had that mustard man.
Just what was the other book we read?
It was Love in the Afternoon.
She does something or he like it's the last half way.

(20:15):
The one with the letters.
Yeah, you like that a lot.
He does. I don't remember if she like startles him or like touches him.
It does something, but he ends up like tackling her to the ground.
Yeah. And then is she turned on by it?
I don't remember if she's turned.
I know she's like very understanding.
I know she's not like, oh, my God, why did you?
I think he feels really horrible about it.

(20:35):
And she kind of I don't remember if she was turned on.
Honestly, she probably was because I think I get that
because I think she really.
Yeah, I don't know. I don't remember much about that book.
So I don't know why I would remember that.
But I mean, it feels like very me to remember her being.
So that's an untrustworthy

(20:56):
remembrance, I don't know.
But yes, it it was just like you just felt the stress mounting.
Like every time she would show up or you'd get her POV because the POV
like it kind of reminded me a little bit of Lord of Skandals
because you did have
that othering to of like that woman
like opposed to everything else in that book.

(21:19):
So like and then you got her POV and like her kind of like scheming and like
being smart enough, like to get things done and like to get the things
she needs and stuff.
So I was wondering where it was going to go just in terms of that,
because we've done Lord of Skandals and.
I wonder why we've also read Beverly Jenkins,
so we know shit can go either way, and it went the Beverly Jenkins.

(21:42):
That's true. I was just trying to think, because like I didn't hate.
I there are also some kind of problematic aspects
of the way that Loretta Chase wrote the what's her name,
the villain in Lord of Skandals. Yeah, I don't know her name.
I know. I agree.
Like it's a little like, oh, she's promiscuous and therefore bad.
I mean, she did.
It was like, oh, you purposely got pregnant to like trap this guy.

(22:03):
So like slightly different.
But I just I don't know, because there's always the underlying
how like it's hard for women to have income.
It's hard for them to do anything.
Like there's all that underlying stuff.
Yeah, that makes it was supposed to be like, yeah, she doesn't care about her kid.
Like she's letting him run.

(22:23):
In like an abusive, like neglectful sense.
And so I think it was easier for me to dislike her, even acknowledging
that it was a little slut, shame you. Whereas this one, I know we had to have
a character who was bad enough, like a woman who was bad enough
that she would get murdered and we wouldn't feel super bad about it.
I felt kind of bad.
I felt a little bad, especially when like we're in a trial and they're like,

(22:46):
and now we're going to talk about all the dudes she banged.
And I'm like, I know why.
I know why we have to do this from like a lawyer standpoint.
However, you know, like maybe we could focus on who actually killed her.
Like, let's clarify, I felt worse in my life, but I felt bad.
Yeah, I didn't. I don't know.
I didn't think we deserved to get murdered.

(23:08):
No, I was like, I feel like she needed to like move out of town or something.
I mean, that she was actually pregnant.
I was like, oh, God damn.
She was pregnant and then she had to she was making some facts.
She was like, you fucked me raw.
Sleigh. And I was like, he did.
He did.
And then I mean, he also chopped his finger off to get out of going to war.

(23:31):
Fuck that guy. He's the one who needed to get murdered.
But that wouldn't have been quite as suspicious given that no.
He killed a prostitute in the past.
Yeah, he needed that.
I mean, they could have spun it in the way like he fired him, but like
would have been very far fetched.
Yeah, I know plot wise why Lula was the one that needed help.

(23:52):
And it was also just such an interesting story.
It's also just such an interesting.
So while it did wasn't great for women in that sense, I do think it was making a point
about how men can also feel very uncomfortable being pursued and objectified and like uncomfortable,

(24:13):
which I really did enjoy.
So it's kind of hard to have both at the same time, I guess.
But I just felt so bad for him, too, that he was like so uncomfortable with it, that
he didn't want to tell his wife that like he didn't know what to do because he was in
that position of like, I can't harm her and like, I don't want to harm her.

(24:36):
But like, how do I get it through her head that like, I don't want to be with her.
And so I felt for him, too.
I was like, I don't I don't know, bud.
Yeah.
Like, and it was stressful.
But in a good way, it was very cinematic, especially the courtroom scene.
Yeah, I loved the way that was written.

(24:58):
I was devouring it.
They're like, oh, my God, the scene where he raises his hand, like they've just made
the point about how there are nine fingerprints around her neck.
And he has to like raise his hand to swear in.
And everybody sees that he has a missing finger.
And then he sits down and the lawyer like takes a long time and then goes, no questions.

(25:19):
I guess she was found gagged.
She was found gagged.
No questions that.
And also the implications of his missing finger and his dishonor of not going to war being
the thing that implicated him finally in the trial is just like delicious.

(25:40):
Delicious.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
And I mean, like the last, I have to assume, page or two because we did the audiobook,
but like it did not have to go that hard.
I was just so.
I listened to it like 10 times.
The most romantic thing you've ever heard in your life.

(26:01):
I just like kept listening to it.
I was like, I can't stop.
There's a line about, I only listened to it once, I don't remember, some line about like
he saw the home and he saw forever or something.
Yeah.
And I was like, shut up.
Yeah.
Actually shut up.
And I paused it and I was like, need to keep it in line.
I know.
It's so soft.
That's, I mean, that's kind of like, I'm looking back because I feel like we should do an episode

(26:27):
of us just ranking like all of our personal rankings of these books and like talking it
through just in December because like, what else do we have to do?
Cause I'm like curious to see if we have a schedule Hannah, we're an episode behind.
That's so true.
We are missing our 1989 pairings.
I was thinking we could just record that this weekend and then I can just get it up on Black

(26:53):
Friday because it can be a little gift.
It will be free out of all the things that you're going to want to buy on Black Friday.
Cause then we have like a break for a little bit and then we've got The Bride by Julie
Garwood.
I think that's like the last one.
And then we've got, I don't know, December, the rest of it.

(27:14):
But I think it would be fun for us to go through like our like least to like best.
And I was thinking about it.
I was like, all the ones that I really liked were very soft and like, especially like I
consider very soft for being like old school school.
Like I was just thinking of this like in comparison to Indigo.
Cause even to me that one, like there was a lot going on and it's still Beverly Jenkins,

(27:38):
but it was also very soft to me, which I want to go back and reread it cause I know I loved
it and I know like things that happened, but like I want to feel it all again.
And so I just find it just so interesting when they are just good people living their

(28:01):
life, like not doing bad things besides maybe murder in your past life.
I mean, that's okay.
Yeah.
I also just think it was such an interesting, I love when it's like, it's not just like,
oh, a Duke and a, I mean, I love a Duke and a Spencer or a Wellflower or whatever.
Don't get me wrong.
I mean, who would you be?
But I love like a really specific pairing of like two people that you wouldn't initially

(28:24):
think, oh, that makes sense.
But then when you see it in context, you're like, oh my God, that makes so much sense.
And so to have like, here is this drifter ex-convict who has literally been like a drifter
his whole life, who has spent the last five years in prison.
Didn't have a family.
Yeah.
And also in prison, having been put there essentially by the friend that he killed someone

(28:46):
to protect.
Like, there are all these layers.
Yeah, when that was revealed.
Oh my God.
Poor man.
Yeah.
And then you have this like, woman who was born into a family of religious fanatic, like
abusive religious fanatics.
And now not only has that, but has to deal with like being shunned by an entire town

(29:07):
because of it.
Like they're just so lonely and so hurt.
And you're like an ex-convict and a wid, and then you see it and you're like, oh my God.
Some of my favorite books are just two lonely people.
Yeah.
Because lonely people are normally pretty, like solidly good people.

(29:27):
So it makes you even feel worse that they're lonely and sad.
And so you're just like, oh, you guys are hurting and you're just so lonely and I just
want to hug you and you just want to hug each other.
So you're like the Alexis Hall, Lady for a Duke, like that hurt in such a good way.
Did you ever read the Scott in the Dark, the Sarah McLane?

(29:50):
Did I?
No, I don't think so.
Okay.
So that one, I don't know if you would classify it as too lonely.
Well, he's fairly lonely.
He's more hurt, I think is the thing with him.
It's like many, many Dukes have died to like alarming number of them.
And so she's like adult ward who has been passed from person to person to person.

(30:13):
And a large part of the story is her making female friends also because essentially, yeah,
her position is like because she's this like ward, she's living alone in this house except
for the servants, but the servants won't like talk to her because she's not as like, she's
not there.
It's like how you see governesses sometimes placed where like they're above the servants,

(30:35):
but below the family.
And so they're very like, oh, the Duchess hunt by Lorraine Heath, because she's a secretary
for him.
And so she feels too elevated.
Yeah, like the servants don't trust her because she's also like she's an employee.
But then she was also like, I'm not worthy of this incredibly hot Duke, which she was
and he was down bad for her.
But like, she was very isolated.

(30:56):
I mean, he was very lonely, too, and he was dealing with a lot of shit.
Sure.
But this one, I don't even remember what it was.
But there was something about like, he comes to a point where he realizes she's essentially
spent her whole life in this little corner.
I don't even remember what he's like, why do you live in this room?
And she had some oh, it's because it's like by the servant stairs or something.

(31:17):
So she can like hear people moving.
Because she's like, I don't know, too, or she did before she met him.
Yeah.
But there's something about this just so like, oh, my God, you have spent your whole life
alone.
Craving.
Because you got the beginning of the book was her mother.
Yeah.
Also, that hurt.

(31:38):
I know.
And then you were like, she was never heard from again, because it was the mother had
just had her Ellie out of wedlock.
And like we mentioned, the parents were very religious and were not okay with it.
And so you just have the poor mother just being like, she's a beautiful baby, like,
don't you want to see her and then them just like dragging her into the house.

(32:00):
And then it's like she was never seen again.
And you just felt so bad because then she ended up just going mad because of just their
constant abuse and emotional mental torture.
And like she had to constantly like repent and like confess her sins and stuff.

(32:22):
So then just Ellie having to grow up in that and then getting out when they all died.
And then her getting married right away.
Hurt my heart.
I know.
And then those boys.
I know.
They're so cute.

(32:42):
Just Will.
No, Will is the guy.
What's the Donald?
Donald Trump.
What's the Donald Wade?
Like immediately attaching himself to Will and just like following him around and doing
things and Will just immediately taking to him, even though he's never interacted with
children and just being like, this is my little buddy.
And then she was like, okay, I can trust him.

(33:03):
Like he's good with kids.
Like honestly, I get that.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
If I saw that man going around just like sleeping in the barn, fixing things for me, like being
very respectful.
He's a Bob the Builder husband.
I saw that on Twitter.
And then I was like, so true.
And then he has his little, he like found that little small saw or whatever for him.

(33:23):
He has his normal size saw and then he somehow discovered a little mini saw for Donald Wade.
Shut up.
Like it's just like that also, I guess, Kit McBride gives that where you just want a hero
who can cook.
I mean, he couldn't really cook, but like who would if he had to?
In fact, could not cook because he told her to make her own birthday cake, which made

(33:45):
me laugh.
Yes.
And what else was he going to do?
Very true.
I do think that just having like a hero who's like working class and like able to like do
chores and like cook and do that kind of stuff or just labor is always very appealing or

(34:05):
getting like a nobleman into that position when he hadn't been is also very fun because
he's so stressed.
There is something so sexy to me.
Maybe this is just those gender norms that are ingrained in me.
Who's to say?
But I'm going to say it anyway about either if you take a nobleman, the nobleman that
I like are the ones that like have jobs just because they want to.

(34:29):
And they're like, I just like don't want to sit around doing nothing all the time.
Like I would like to have an actual purpose.
Thank you.
There's something so sexy about Will being like, I love that I get to do this just like
honest work.
Like I get to just go and do something productive that is not being enforced on me, but I get
to go just like chop wood.
And he was so like touched that he could go do this.

(34:52):
I know.
Well, and then I was thinking because I was like, okay, so they're both like they don't
have a lot of income on like what is going to happen to get them money?
Because, oh, I know.
They brought up all the junk.
Yeah.
And when I read, I was like, okay, we always know that normally characters don't end destitute
in romance novels.

(35:15):
And so, I mean, a lot of the times, there's a but only a few times it was a Megan Frampton
book that I read where they both just like ended as like working class people just like
making a normal income.
Like neither one of them had an inheritance.
Neither one was a nobleman or anything.
And it was just very satisfying to know that they were just like living life, working for

(35:38):
it.
And so, I loved that that also came from the bees in their honey because I was like bees?
How many bees can we talk about in this season?
I feel like a lot and I don't even like bees.
I like them and the purpose that they serve, but they scare me.
So yeah, I did.

(36:00):
He's like, I would like to take care of the bees in my county.
And she's like, absolutely not.
And we know why.
And he's like, but counterpoint to that is that we've just got all these bees and we
could be making money.
And she's like, what do you want money for?
Why are you so greedy?
And I was laughing.
And it does make sense to a certain extent where they have the garden, they have the

(36:23):
chickens laying the eggs.
They don't need a lot of money.
But I also was like, aren't you in the middle of the Great Depression?
And then it made me laugh because my dad talks about how his parents used to say like they
didn't even know they went through a Great Depression because they were so poor.
It didn't make a difference.
And I was like, oh, that's her energy.
She's like, okay.
And she even makes a comment about the Victory Gardens where she's like, okay, I've been

(36:49):
gardening my whole life.
You didn't hear about Victory Gardens.
She's laughing.
Her point about like, I've just always had a garden, but now it's a Victory Garden because
I did also love the fashion changing, the hairstyles throughout because again, I'm very
bad with fashion and being able to visualize, but I could visualize a lot in this book just

(37:11):
because you know kind of like the hairstyles and the different clothes and all of that.
And I mean, I definitely realized that I know more about the culture of America during World
War II than I thought I did because it was just kind of like when you were reading about
you're like, oh yeah, that.
Yeah, I feel like that's one of those things that we just learn about a lot throughout.

(37:38):
Yeah, I know a lot about it.
It's interesting seeing it in that context and seeing what she did and how they all managed
without like half of the population.
So it was very, very interesting.
Yeah, the setting was really well.

(37:59):
And again, I was like, I'm not going to be interested in this.
I was like, why?
Like I'm not like I read historical romance because I like to be like separated from like
this time, but I was very interested.
Again, I was like, why am I so interested?
I don't know.
But there's something about them going in that like old junker car and then go into
the movie.

(38:20):
It was so weird.
I was like, there's a car, there's an auto, an automobile.
I was like, oh my gosh, I get that way when I hear like electricity in historical romance.
I'm like, whoa, running water, indoor plumbing, exactly.
Hot water.
Oh, this makes me giggle.
That is so true.
Oh, my God.

(38:41):
Also, Miss Beasley, we have to talk about Miss Beasley.
Yes.
Oh, and then she got her little romance.
Yes.
He was like, you know, I was always into her.
I don't know why I never asked her out.
My dude.
Yeah.
And he was like hot about it.
He's like, yeah, you were just like too like you intimidated me because you were just so

(39:01):
smart.
But like, and not in like a you're wrong for being smart way.
Just know and like a you're really hot way.
Yeah.
Hmm.
The hell was that for?
I was because I felt so like she was so lonely too.
And then like their relationship.
And she's like kind of infatuated.
But like, you know, like it made sense to me.
It sounds weird.

(39:21):
Grandmothers want orgasms too.
OK.
Well, I don't think that's even really what she was thinking about.
But no, but she could like understand he was like she was like, this man is fine.
I love like when you first meet her, you have that introduction about like how strict she
is.
And yeah, right.
You're like, who is this?
Like, is she going to be really judgy?
And then she turns out to be like the best character and like so and then the way she

(39:47):
murders that man at the end, like shows up at his jail cell and reads him for filth and
then walks out.
He's like, have I lost her too?
Yeah.
She said you need to pull yourself together and then walked out without letting him answer.
Like drag him, Miss Beasley.
I just love also that he was like wanting to read and then she was like, I don't accept

(40:11):
like I don't change the rules, but she could write a note to come into like instead of
coming in.
You're a good person.
It's also just so fun.
Like the way that like everybody else is so judgy about this guy, but then you get inside
her head and the way it's like, oh, he's very quiet.
He's very respectful.
He comes in, he does what he needs to do.

(40:32):
He sits down and just like reads in peace like and just like my and she's like so impressed
by this and is like, look at this handsome, polite young man.
And then he turns out Lula and she's like, we love to see it.
Yeah.

(40:54):
Come back any time.
Come work for me.
It really felt, I don't know, just like a movie, just like how like her character like
progressed and like them befriended Ellie when he went to war and just all of that.
And then we didn't even talk about how he had to steal like clothes and like cream or

(41:19):
something from buttermilk from the lawn and like the hanging lines of this one family.
And then he like goes and returns like the stuff and like apologizes and gives them honey.
And then he's like, but you could like be my wife's friend because I'm going off to war.
He's like, she's really lonely.

(41:40):
I was like, oh, OK.
And then she ends up being like critical in the testimony too.
Did we did her husband ever come back from war?
I don't think he was back yet.
I don't think we ever.
I hope he's OK because she was a lovely lady.

(42:02):
Yeah, I was just so ill.
Because the fact that then like Ellie had like friends and like a huge friend group,
just like friends that she could talk to.
And then she had the baby girl.
And then when she was like having all the little clothes, I was like, oh my God.
And I just love that she was already pregnant.
So then like he had to like navigate being around a woman for the first time.

(42:27):
And then she's also pregnant and like she doesn't feel love, like lovable.
And I like I wish that that scene where they were like back and forth, like they were laying
in the bed.
Oh, and they were so scared.
Oh, and he was like, I thought you would reject me.
And she's like, I thought you would reject me.
And just the way it was written, like you can't they're not doing it like that anymore.

(42:50):
That's so true.
That's so true.
Like I just I love the interchanging because normally you have like the one chapter POVs.
I love when it can be like artfully like woven in like that.
Well, I am of Lisa Klepius is great at it.
I love head hopping.

(43:10):
It is something that is really dying out.
Yeah, I don't know why.
But I think a lot of authors don't know how to do it well.
So like sometimes you see it now and you're like, oh, this is confusing.
But a lot of times in the older romances, I eat up head hopping.
I love when like I'll catch like a random like Lorraine Heath or something like nowadays,

(43:35):
that would be like one random head hopping point.
And I'm like, why are we in the others POV like right in the middle of the others like
chapter and then it just never happens again.
I'm like, did you just like what happened?
I'm like, I didn't hate it.
I forgot.
Yeah.
What's going on?
No, no, no.
Or even not even like head hop.
I mean, I guess it is head hopping.
But like that omniscient, like you'll get a line that's like kind of a reference to what

(44:00):
some other character is thinking about.
You don't want to go near that man when his back's turned.
The one I think about all the time with like omniscient is Devil in Winter.
There's like one scene where all of a sudden you're in Cam's POV and it's just so that

(44:20):
you can now get a third party's perspective on Evie and Sebastian and specifically, I
think about it all the time because it talks about Sebastian and like Sebastian thinks he's
so chill and laid back and cool.
Meanwhile, you jump into Cam's head and he's like, yeah, Sebastian like vibrates like a
tuning fork whenever Evie is in the room.
Like we are all witnessing this.

(44:42):
The drama.
The drama indeed.
And the drama in Morning Glory.
Listen, I'm unwell.
And then they mentioned fucking Morning Glories at the end like creeping up like turning blue.
Because her house that she grew up in was covered in Morning Glories.
And then he comes back to the house and there's flowers everywhere.
And then there's Morning Glories on the house when he comes back.

(45:06):
Like the three different parts of this book, because I think it can be like classified
as like the first half of him like making himself like a part of that family and like
them all becoming a family.
Then him going to war and then coming back and having to deal with like, A, the horrors
of war and B, murder.
Again, like, just the way that so much happened.

(45:33):
And like you span, like if it was like a year, like it was a year, like it was a lot, not
a lot of time.
Like it felt like a lot of time was happening.
And then you realize you're like, not a lot.
Like the baby is still like a fresh baby.
Like she's still young.
Because I was worried that he was going to come back and she was going to be like two.
And I was like, Oh, yeah, no, the baby smells.

(45:54):
Oh, it's fine.
Everything is fine.
I was unwell for most of that book.
I was crying.
Sometimes it was sad.
And I was like, Oh, my God, they've you've dealt with so much in your life.
And sometimes it was like, Oh, this is just so soft.
And you're like falling in love.
And now I'm crying because of that.
And then I was crying because he went to war.

(46:16):
Like and then I was crying because his best friend died and he blamed himself.
And then he gets the letter from his former from the dead friend's fiance.
Yeah, like it hurt.
It all hurts.
And then when she just feels like, like so comforted by his presence, and then when she

(46:38):
realizes he has to leave, that she's gonna have to do all these things that he was doing,
like it's just.
It hurts so good, John Cougar, Mellon Camp, you were right.
I think the kids is really like, I mean, the kids and the kids and the good night kisses.

(46:59):
It was at that moment.
Yeah.
Where my soul left my body.
Yeah.
Loaded away.
Yeah.
To go live on an island because that is so hard.
I could just like picture like the little kid just being like, kisses.
Cause the big one wanted him and then the little one was like, I'm gonna do everything
the big one does.

(47:20):
I'm gonna ask people.
And it was devastating.
And in the audio book, she does like a little kind of like almost listen.
And you're like, what if I just cry?
Also when he goes to get arrested and Donald Wade just like loses his mind.
Uh huh.
Enough.
I know.
And I was like, you really.
He's like, you're one of the good guys.

(47:41):
I'm like, you think you would commit murder after just getting back from war and having
these cute kids.
Yeah, that hurt.
Cause you knew it was coming.
I was like, well, obviously you knew it was coming because you got the POVs of the guy
plotting it.
Sure.
Sure.
Just like, Oh, Mr. Mustard in the alley with his nine fingers.

(48:03):
That's the fifth ending of Clue that they never filmed.
I'm so jealous.
I, I, there was just so much to unpack.
And at all times I was on the verge of tears if not in tears, like just constantly on the
verge of tears.

(48:23):
I don't even know how.
I don't know how that's like, I was reading it and I was like, how did you do this?
Yeah.
Like how did you get the thought?
I was just like, I'm just gonna create an environment.
So loving and soft.
I'm just going to take the two loneliest people you've ever heard of who are so deserving

(48:45):
of love and yet so believing that they are undeserving of love and then make them love
each other, but not believe it.
But then the fact that this was like not even a Beauty and the Beast story because like
that you find that a lot, like in that trope or like the scarred hero or like that kind
of stuff.
And so like, just, I mean, she kind of, she didn't feel beautiful.

(49:05):
And he was like, you're pretty beautiful.
It is just a lot, but I'm unwell.
And like if anyone knows like other old schools with like with this vibe, same author or not,
tell us.
I have to think that a lot of liberal Spencer is like, based on just like the book descriptions
that I have read.
I think there are a lot that have this vibe, but I could be wrong.

(49:28):
This is the first book I've ever read.
But I think that's just the style.
It is so interesting when you find a book like this and it's the first when you read
of an author or like even like not old school school authors.
And you're just like, will all their books be like this?
Like, are they all going to be like that?
They tend to be, I don't know about like 1942, but like not they're not regencies.

(49:51):
I think a lot of them are American, if not all of them.
Again, I don't know.
I haven't yet read them.
But I see her books all the time at like half price books and stuff.
I feel like I've seen Morning Glory 2.
Yeah, she's got some really lovely.
I think the way the reason I think that oh my goodness.

(50:12):
Country music superstar Mac McPhail returns to her hometown of Wintergreen, Missouri,
where she learns to appreciate her family and open her heart to love and commitment
with the man next door.
I wonder if I have to assume that's contemporary, but I don't know.
I'm compelled.
Compelled.
This one's a grieving widow in her mid 40s with her three children and her florist business.

(50:39):
I thought you guys said and her florist.
No, her florist was a florist.
Like, yeah.
Oh my god.
Then her oldest son Greg is killed in a motorcycle accident.
And she turns to police office.
Well, OK, we don't love that, but police officer Christopher Lalick, Greg's best friend.
And then they become friends and then their friendship blossoms and he becomes part of

(51:04):
the family.
Audrey.
She's falling in love with this serious, gentle young man and wonders what the world will
think of their unexpected love affair.
She finds her answer close to home for Lee's daughter has feelings of her own for Chris.

(51:24):
Wait, what?
Who's Chris?
What?
Chris is the OK, so her her name is her name is Lee.
Yeah.
Oh, so her daughter.
Oh, no.
Her daughter is also in love with her dead son's best friend.
No, I mean, honestly, he sounds very lovable.
Yeah.

(51:44):
So throw me in the ring, too.
Low key, I would read that.
What's that called?
Family Blessings.
Wow.
Just to be able to write like that.
That's a crazy times.
I know, like her covers are always very different.

(52:08):
Farm in North Dakota in 1917.
Interesting.
Does she have any...
As World War One threatened to take those she held dear, Linnea grew to womanhood in
the arms of Teddy Westgard, a man who thought he'd never find love.

(52:29):
A story of passion, a story of heartache, a story of a way of life that will long be
remembered with people in places as real as the emotions of the heart.
Why would I also read all of these books?
Why am I going to read all of liberal Spencer?
19th Century Boston?
There is one in...

(52:50):
From the streets of 19th Century Boston to the harsh frontier, she wove a web of deception
to ensnare her man.
Lovely fiery tempered Anna Reardon was forced to lie to get out of the street urchin's life
that shamed her to become Carl Lindstrom's mail-order bride in the beautiful, treacherous
Minnesota wilderness.
We got Minnesota, guys.
Carl forgave Anna for her deceptions, but there was still one shameful burning secret

(53:13):
that she had to hide from him, knowing its revelation would destroy the love that had
become her very life.
That one's The Endearment.
And I will read it.
You want...
I wonder how many of these are on audio.
I have no idea.
And that is a bummer, but I...

(53:33):
I hope more because...
I'm so intrigued.
That's a great audiobook, too.
I just love a mail-order bride situation.
So true.
It's just so fun, unless they marry your brother.
I love the variety of like, kind of time periods and locations.
This one's also... this one's Minnesota 1950.

(53:54):
That was a...
I just said 19th century.
So I don't know.
Oh, Minnesota.
I couldn't imagine being in a cold climate back then.
A sister.
Whoa.
Sister.
Hold on.
A devoted husband and father, a man of unshakable faith, he derives intense pleasure from the
life he's built with his beloved wife Christina and their two daughters and is the dedicated

(54:17):
handyman for St. Joseph's, the Catholic church that is the cornerstone.
His wife dies.
His she-sure-his heart is broken forever.
As friends and relatives rally around the family in the dark days and weeks that follow,
there is one person who's unable to express what the loss of Christina means to her.
Sister Regina, the girl's teacher at St. Joseph's school, has always felt a special affinity

(54:41):
for the family, yet her religious vows prevent her from becoming too close to them even in
their time of need.
Listen.
Uh-oh.
She's a nun.
Is that going to give me the bells of St. Mary?
Yep.
He's the handyman of the church and he's now widowed and the friend of the family nun is
like rustling under the constraints of the order but reaffirming her commitment through

(55:06):
prayer and contempla- but now they're in love and you just know it's going to hurt because
it's Lovero Spencer.
Yeah.
The ratings on this one aren't as good as, like it's still mostly five and four stars
but there's a decent chunk of three.
I don't even care because I will be reading.
It's called Then Came Heaven.

(55:28):
Okay, listen.
Next season no more old school school.
We're actually just reading Lovero Spencer.
That's a joke but is it?
Haha just kidding.
Unless.
Well, that's a lesson for you.

(55:50):
I don't have a lesson.
I forgot to think of one.
Mine is being arrested for murder is only a yellow flag.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't even have to come up with one then because that's so true.
I figured it.
I'm like I heard he was arrested and also charged and also served time for murder and

(56:10):
I was like- Every time he'd get a key.
I'm still interested.
Like somebody would talk about him having killed a prostitute.
I was like he's not denying it.
And then he was like yeah I did.
And I was like elaborate because I know there are some mitigating circumstances.
I either thought it was going to be like him thinking he was responsible because like he

(56:36):
like told her to like go away and then she like got killed or something or that she was
attacking him.
I did not see it coming that she was threatening his friend and then he killed her or didn't
even try to kill her but just like try to get the gun away.
And then the friend was so delusional and thought that she was going to marry him after
she was going to shoot him that he needed to then lie and say that he was the friend

(57:05):
was I don't know.
I'm like why?
What logic?
I don't know but he was crazy.
So yeah.
Yeah I thought it was going to be like kind of like what we were expecting to happen with
Lula where like he there was like a fight or something and like something happened accidentally
and he killed her.
I was I did not see or self-defense.

(57:26):
I was not.
Yeah.
I was taken by surprise.
A at two Brutus.
Yeah.
Oh oh can we talk about also let's talk about first of all Miss Beasley I know we've already
talked about a slay.
There is a line that is stuck in my head though or not a line but a moment which is when so

(57:47):
she's been accused of murder.
He's in jail.
He's told her off and regretted it immediately but it is what it is and he was like I don't
even care anymore like and Ellie's like sad and goes to talk to Miss Beasley and tells
Miss Beasley all this stuff that he said and Miss Beasley is pissed and she's like he had

(58:07):
no right that man the audacity like I cannot believe this but there's a moment where she
says something along the lines of like you just reacted the way that anyone would react
like that's anybody who heard that would react that way and it says she lied.
Yes.

(58:28):
Yes.
Or she's like did did you have that moment and she says of course I did she lied or something
like that.
Yeah well because because Ellie asked she was feeling bad about like feeling yeah that
he could be guilty for like the second that she did and then so she asked Miss Beasley
and she was like did you feel and she was like yes I did like you that everyone would

(58:49):
feel like that and then she lied.
So then that that really gags me because I was like so she's always been first line in
his army.
Like oh that.
Yeah there's something so like the way that he relies on Ellie there are like references
to him kind of thinking of or not thinking of her but like needing it like some measure

(59:11):
of mothering from Ellie.
The whole Ellie being the mother.
And like seeing her mother in a way that was like nurturing and stuff.
And they reference it a few times where like I think it's when he's crying about his dead
friend and it says something about like needing her to be the mother that he always need like
he will always need that from her.

(59:34):
But then you have Miss Beasley who is like actually a maternal figure to him and not
even for a second considered that he might have been guilty when even his wife who I
I also would have doubted I'm not like wow Ellie you can't believe like.
Like it hurt but you're like I am.

(59:56):
Right.
But like just and just to throw away line she lied.
It was a throwaway line.
It hurt.
Well because because you were always like when he wasn't telling Ellie about Lula like
pursuing him you're like that's going to haunt him.
And in a different way than than I was like oh she's just going to think that he was having

(01:00:16):
an affair or something.
Yeah.
So they're just like because it's obviously a very human reaction to.
I think she said it's a total of three minutes.
Yeah.
And then she was like I'm like he would never do that.
Why would like.
I mean it's rational like you think things but then for and then it's so when Mrs. Beasley

(01:00:36):
or Miss Beasley was like yeah I did too I was like okay yeah Queen go off I mean.
And then it was like she lied.
There was something so emotionally devastating about that like and also here is this other
woman who is not romantically involved with him but who trusts and loves him so deeply

(01:00:57):
and to know that she got a family out of it too.
Yes.
And that's for the lawyer guy like she found like a family and like peace and.
There were like when she was saying goodbye to him at the train and they talk about like
she's like I'm not going to say like if I had a son but I'm like she's the one because
she came because she was like I'm here like she wasn't really throwing like Ellie under

(01:01:19):
the bus but she was like I I'm here for you.
Oh god.
What if I just cry.
Oh my god.
Speaking of things that'll make us cry.
Can we talk about him finding out in court that Ellie is pregnant with his baby.
And the way that he like whips around and she like smiles at him and everyone watching
is like oh my god this man is so in like these they are so in love.

(01:01:45):
And it was again like I think these like it is such a long book but like it gave you the
full scope of them falling in love and like I just love that.
And I don't always need it but I loved it here.
I love you mentioned before you like the all of the reasons it's so great that she's already

(01:02:06):
pregnant when they meet.
I love we could have had it.
Let's say she wasn't pregnant like she has these two kids and yeah he loves them so much.
But then like oh here's his baby now like and then yeah now we have the like oh she's
pregnant thing but instead we get like him literally being like I actually could not
love this but like of course I would love it if the baby were actually mine but I could

(01:02:29):
not love her more if she was like this is my baby.
But then and you and you get that and him having his own baby with her.
But there's no like you know that that is going to be like loved equally.
I mean I also love that her husband wasn't a bad guy.

(01:02:50):
He was bad at sex therefore he had to die.
It's the rules.
That is the rule.
Well and also they weren't like in love.
Yeah.
I'm just happy he was like a decent guy.
Didn't harm her.
Didn't give her an orgasm.
That's fine.
She got him later.
But like just knowing that he was a good guy so then just that his family was like taking

(01:03:12):
care of and all that.
I'm unwell.
No I was just so I because again like I love babies in historical romance.
I just really do.
Like all the tiny baby clothes and just like all of it and like the frantic oh my gosh
he's giving birth.

(01:03:33):
I love a well-written kid who isn't just like and here's a kid as like a random thing that
shows up sometimes but like you're actual children who are like characters.
I've read a few times where like I can't remember what book recently it was but he had kids
and you like never met them.
And I'm like why not?

(01:03:54):
Yeah.
I want more.
Like I want that.
Also just like unrealistic.
Like if you have any family member unless it's like oh you're estranged father or like
you're an adult you've been out on your own maybe your parents aren't super involved in
your life whatever but like kids that unless you're trying to tell me they're a bad parent

(01:04:17):
and they're like neglectful.
You have to show us the kid like it just makes sense that they would spend a lot of time
with and be affected by the kid.
Like of course we're gonna see.
Unless we're in Prisoner of my Desire and the hero wants to bang his kid for about five
minutes till he realizes she's his bastard.

(01:04:37):
That's a different circumstance.
In his defense he didn't know it was his kid.
And once he realized he was like oh god.
Yeah he did immediately go oh nope.
Oh the camp.
Looking camp straight in the eye.
It wasn't a Sky O'Malley situation or what was the other one we read recently with Incest?

(01:05:00):
Was it just the last one?
The well that one was.
It was the one that wasn't actually Incest.
Oh Moonstruck Madness.
Yeah.
Where they had weird sexual tension but never actually were confirmed incestuous.
The Team Rocket energy if you will.
The Team Rocket.
I mean Incest it can spice a plot right up.

(01:05:23):
In ways that aren't not alarming.
TikTok trend?
Where it's like a photo thing like you slide between the photos and the first one is like
when you're young and it's like did we make it and then you slide to and sometimes they're
like depressing and it's like no but most of the time it's like a happy thing where

(01:05:44):
you slide to like yeah we you know married this person or like achieved this job or what
at like there the two photos are connected like little young you asking did we make it
and then until you being like yes.
However there is one that went wildly viral and I don't know what the purpose because
clearly fake somebody dug up like they used a stock photo or something so it wasn't real

(01:06:08):
but I'm unclear on why you would post that because they have answered no questions.
They have elaborated not a bit but the first one is like a whatchamacallit like ultrasound
whatever of two like little twin babies in a womb and it's like did we make it and then
you slide to a photo of a married couple like kissing on their wedding day and it's like

(01:06:34):
of course we did and everyone in the comments is like hey can you explain this?
Hey can you elaborate?
What does this mean?
What does this mean?
Similar but different I think it was also fake but there was this thing going around

(01:06:54):
on Twitter it was like kind of like a reality or like hidden camera situation so this guy
was like giving an interview and the lady was like so why did you break up because it
was about like a guy who had broken up with his ex and he was like sad about it and saying
how he loved her and then you could see like in the other room there's the ex and she's

(01:07:15):
like she's the one who broke up with him and she's getting emotional and the other guy
in that room is like trying to be like would you take him back and they're like okay go
forth and have him and she runs out and then he like hugs her and then he mouths over her
shoulder wrong ex because he was like yeah I could marry her like she was the one and

(01:07:37):
then he mouths wrong ex like cutting it off.
Again I think it was fake.
Because you see the tweet that went viral was like nowhere did I expect it to end like
it ended and then you watch it and the fact that he said a wrong ex it was a good time.

(01:08:04):
I was like I'm happy I'm not in that situation but that was funny that was hilarious and
then you could be like you could romance novel that and then be like it would be the wrong
ex but then they like get back together.
I love fun times.
Romance novel as a verb.
You could romance novel that.
Me with the track side chapel in the Vegas Formula One I could romance novel that.

(01:08:28):
I could romance novel that.
That romance novel is itself.
I mean it has to be a verb.
I feel like all romance readers think like that.
Like you just romanticize everything and you romance novel everything.
Taylor Swift, Travis Kelce thing and you're like yeah that is I could romance novel that.
Maybe people shouldn't after three days of them being public romance novel it and then

(01:08:49):
take it down from Amazon.
Maybe you shouldn't do that.
But yes but they could.
Like it just feels very like it's just that the romance novel possibilities are endless.
It writes itself.
It sure does.
Unlike this book which did not write itself because Leverille Spencer put in the work.

(01:09:12):
I was literally thinking that exact thing.
She really did.
But it felt like it wrote itself because it just felt real.
It just felt like I wasn't doing anything.
I was just sitting there.
Oh my god.
I will never recover actually.

(01:09:35):
In search of more.
Need more now.
Well because there's always that fear of like when I read Whitney My Love I really enjoyed
it until that man ruined it but still I would reread it.
So then when I went and read Until You which was Stephen's book I was so excited but that

(01:09:56):
man sucked.
I hated him so much because it was a great book.
Like that was a very good book despite me hating that man.
And I was just so sad because I was so excited to read it because I love Stephen in Whitney
My Love.
And then he was just kind of the worst.
But it was so it hurt even more because it was such a good book.
So like you know that like she could write and she can do it but she just made him so

(01:10:23):
unlikable.
I was like why?
So I'm scared to read like anything more by her but then also I'm like I've seen really
good things.
Most of the books I've seen from liberal spend I usually see good things.
Things.
That's good.
Yeah.
Well because I see good things about who wrote Whitney My Love.

(01:10:43):
Why am I blanking on her name?
Judith MacKnot?
Yes.
In my review for Stephen's book I said I'm Judith Distraught.
That was a good time.
Oh I know.
Made me laugh.
That was Judith MacKnot.
Because again like that was it was a great book.
Like The Heroine she was lovely.

(01:11:04):
It was cinematic.
It was fantastic.
And then he was just there.
And he's there.
And he's there ruining it.
And so I'm like I want to give her another chance.
I think Almost Heaven I've seen really good things about.
I've seen good things about the other book.
The first book Kingdom of Dreams.

(01:11:24):
But I've heard The Heroine is not.
Like I've heard The Hero is really good and The Heroine isn't.
And that's when I actually would believe just like from what I've heard about it.
You know sometimes like those old ones.
The heroines always get shit on but I don't know.
So I want to all I will read that.
I'm more willing to forgive a heroine than a hero though.

(01:11:44):
Exactly.
So like I'm like.
Like.
Which is backwards compared to how most people at least based on like Goodreads reviews or
whatever tend to be.
But I'm like that heroine can be a bitch.
And I honestly will be like.
And I support you.
I'm like 50-50 like most of the time I'm like whoever was in the wrong.

(01:12:05):
I'm like you were wrong.
I just mean like personality wise.
Heroines tend to get the like oh they're annoying.
Oh no absolutely.
Or like they're bitchy or what.
And I'm like and what about it.
Gosh.
I'm even the Moonstrike madness.
People hated The Heroine.
I was like what do you mean?

(01:12:26):
Really?
There was one that she was like she should have died.
I was like what do you mean?
I mean she did some like dumb impulsive things.
But well exactly like she did some dumb things but then the hero was right there.
I'm like who do you hate now?
I just think there's a difference between like okay they did a dumb thing and you the
reader can tell that it's a dumb thing but like sometimes people do dumb things and like

(01:12:50):
things that from a writer standpoint or like yeah you're like okay that was a dumb thing
to make that character do like it's actually not logical.
Whereas there are some wild reviews out there.
Well that's true of most romance novels frankly.
Very true.
I don't trust most people because their opinions are wrong.
Well we've curated on purpose a side of the internet that does not partake.

(01:13:16):
Like sometimes I get people on my feed that I'm like I follow you and now you're posting
like AI generated art?
Why are we all posting AI generated art?
A piece I say to people, if you see art that you want to have done and it's very cute Pixar
art, there is an artist out there who would do that for a living and for a commission

(01:13:40):
and you could pay for that but doing it from an AI filter for free because you don't want
to pay for it and you're not like people are like I'm not selling it so it's not a big
deal.
I'm like you are taking a job away from someone who you could go and buy that.
And we know AI stints.
It's not generated out of nothing, it's generated using artists work that they were not paid

(01:14:05):
for.
Yeah.
I've seen a lot of people on my feed do it.
And I am willing, like I feel like they probably just don't really like think about it, don't
realize, just see it and are like oh my gosh, cute.
And I get that.
However if you're listening to this, please don't use AI generated art.

(01:14:26):
But yeah, so that was a random tangent.
But it's a thing that's been happening.
I mean, I will and Ellie would never use AI art generators.
God, they would never.
They wouldn't know what any of that meant.
No.
But mostly because I just know that they deep in their soul would know that it was wrong.

(01:14:51):
I think you're so right, and frankly there's no better way to end the episode than saying
vehemently that Will and Ellie are anti-AI art.
What else is there?
I'm gonna use that as the audiobook, or audio book, audio teaser.

(01:15:15):
And just be like, you have to listen to the episode to figure out how we possibly could
come to this conclusion.
I love that for us.
You know who else wouldn't support AI generated art?
Miss Beasley.
Miss Beasley would rip you a new one.
She would beat it out of you.

(01:15:36):
Very kindly said, but she would- no, not kindly.
I mean, you would not be doing it after she had this done.
Yeah.
Wasn't he like on the verge of tears when she left?
Mmhmm.
No, he was reprimanded to his fullest extent.
She dragged you to the fullest extent of the law.

(01:15:56):
He was humbled.
After already experiencing the most humbling moment of his life.
That's so true.
His wife thinking that he could have committed murder.
For three minutes.
But it was the librarian in the jail cell with her voice.
That's so true.
Gagged.
Dragged.
Absolutely deceased.

(01:16:20):
Support sag.
Yeah.
Gag, drag, support sag.
Mic drop, except not actually drop because this is a desk mic and it would be very loud
if I dropped it.
Unplugged.
Nice.

(01:16:40):
Less effective, or less of an impact.
Dramatic.
That's dramatic.
But unfortunate.
Sometimes the mic does fall back on itself.
That can be alarming.
Do you ever have that where it tips over?
No, mine is- I mean, I tightened it so it just stands.
I tighten mine and then it untightens.
That's rude.
Yeah.
I want it tight, guys.

(01:17:01):
It's just not- it's kind of like Kegels.
You tighten it and then it untightens.
That's a bad joke.
Okay, I'm gonna go do Kegels with my microphone, which is terrible, knowing the shape of this
microphone.
We've entered a territory never once before explored.

(01:17:23):
Is this how they felt on the moon?
I am- One small step.
To quote a girl I saw on TikTok, Louis Armstrong on the moon.
Yes, Louis.
That Armstrong.
I can't do a mic- like a- like I can't do a jazz sound, but I would if I could.

(01:17:47):
Well he played the trumpet, so making a jazz trumpet sound would be impressive with your
mouth.
That's what I was trying to do.
No, no, I know.
That's what I mean.
Like that would be an impressive sound if you were able to like, like, bust one out.
You kind of busted one out.
Thank you.
Yeah, like half busted.
I was considering busted out of jail.
I was trying to do the lip buzz.

(01:18:09):
There's a reason I was never a brass player and it's because I was like, I cannot be buzzing
my lips.
That's- She can't be buzzing her lips.
And you may quote me on that.
Bees?
Miss Bees?
Lee?
It's all coming together.
It's all coming together.
And with that, goodbye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.

(01:18:29):
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bees?
Bees?