S03.11: In Our Himbo Era with Lia Riley

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
If we can we we do banter our way into it about Aiden Turner

(00:05):
his beautiful height
Beautiful mustache
Beautiful mustache mustache and rivals not in Lord of the Rings. Yeah great air in the box. Yes
Then again, he has beautiful flowing locks and everything all the time. Yes
Yes, he does. Okay our attempt at bantering our way into it didn't work. Welcome to romance your TBR

(00:26):
It has been a long time since we have recorded
We've been on a hiatus
The fall and the fall it's fine, but because we're back with a very very exciting guest
Yes that we are super pumped to talk to and we're gonna let her introduce herself
All right. Well, hello everybody. My name is Leah Riley and I am a romance novelist

(00:50):
I also do podcast as well. So that's really fun. I can talk a little bit more about that later. I
kind of found like a sweet spot
Talking about kind of romance in Korean dramas, which kind of led me actually, you know what?
I'm just gonna kind of go with that because I think it kind of makes sense and it does connect

(01:11):
I can I can make this all connect pretty quickly. Absolutely. Oh
So yeah, I wrote and published romance relatively actively from around
2014 to 2017
When I hit a little thing called kind of just like mental and emotional burnout
And so I took a break from actively writing for a couple of years. I still stayed involved in in publishing

(01:35):
I have like a side business that does book production and things like that, but I took a step back from actually writing
the pandemic set in and
I just like everyone else had a lot of time on my hands all of a sudden and I started watching kdramas Korean dramas
and I got really hooked on them and one of the reasons it hooked me was because I realized that the shows were hitting a

(02:00):
lot of like the emotional and plot point beats that would you'd find in a romance novel and
So I got really obsessed with kind of like the street. I was starting like nerd out on structure
I was moving out unlike the characters and the tropes and I started talking about it with two of my good writer friends
And we had this like text chat and we just started to like binge watch and talk and then finally one day
I was like we should just do a podcast. I have no to I am a

(02:24):
Let's do it and then I was like then we'll see each other so
We started January 2021 and we have not we have not missed a Wednesday sense. So we've been like very
But we've been to basically watch shows and then we talk about it through a romance writers lens kind of analyzing like why it works
What's fun about it, you know all that kind of good stuff and in doing that over and over and over

(02:47):
I just started to get really
Hungry for writing again. I started to like me like I was like I want to come up with fun weird tropes
I want to come up with like, you know different kinds of ideas and
One of my favorite conventions that happens in a lot of Korean dramas and it's borrowed also from anime
I mean, there's always like, you know cross pollination of concepts and things like that

(03:08):
Is this idea kind of of like is a K or like water portaling that happens through like time travel?
and so you'll have a character who will go through some sort of a
Water portal and they'll end up in a different world or in a different time
and I was like that would be really fun I kind of filed that in the back of my mind like I would like
to do something like that and
And then I just kind of like put out to the universe a little bit and this worked really well for me

(03:33):
I really do highly recommend manifesting
I did like a whole vision board about a year ago where I was like
I want like these different things to happen for me
And one of the things I want to do is I want to get actively back into writing books
I was taking a shower and
I have seen some people talk about the book
We'll be talking about today being like I bet she just came up with the title and tried to think fit find a plot to fix

(03:55):
a hundred percent
It was in the shower
Yeah, really randomly. I was like has anyone ever done puck and prejudice?
I'm like, that's a really good title if I do say so myself
I was like got out still wet I like looked it up online
I was like I don't see this anywhere and I was like, okay, I got to do it

(04:17):
And so I started to kind of come up with like a conventional retelling idea and I like pitched it to my agent
Like just kind of like it's the modern time. It's just gonna be kind of like telling of the story and she's like this is fine
but she's like it's a little she's like, I don't know it's just it's a little boring to me and then
It was like well, what if but what if there was a water portal?

(04:41):
I'm travel and what if like and then all of a sudden it was just like
Like we kept talking about it like in this conversation. I'm like, this is either terrible or awesome. And honestly, it's probably bull
Which means it needs to happen. Yeah
And so that was what brought me it back into writing actively again was I just decided that what I wanted to do was

(05:04):
truly own like my taste which is yeah, like
To take something seriously, but also not seriously at the same time and
So like I do take writing seriously. I take like readers seriously. I'm not trying to like punk people but I was also like I
don't mind like

(05:24):
Having fun with it and you know, like everyone can touch some grass sometime. All right. I invite that was my entire review
I was like people it's so fun
It's not
It was so much fun
That was what I wanted as I wanted it to just feel fun
And I wanted to entertain myself and I just thought it was such a challenge
and so we can talk about that in a little bit too of like why I

(05:45):
Yeah, I guess how I'll leave it was it was real. Like I I was entertained by myself. I was like this is funny
I hope people will like it like I think I can sell this book. I think it's a great concept
I was able to get a fantastic editor at HarperCollins who was into it
she she got the book and then
I sat down because I like sold it on proposal and so I had to like sit down

(06:07):
I was like, this is such a fun idea then as I started writing it
I was like
But the thing I've done and I don't know like I'll try not to swear on this pot. I don't like oh no feel free
Okay, so the thing that like hooked me up in it was I was like
It has to be kind. It has to be a Regency, but it has to be contemporary and I was like
But it can't be a Regency enough that like a contemporary writer reader who never reads Regency is like I am so confused

(06:33):
I don't get any of like the vernacular, but it can't be so
Like watered down that a Regency reader is like now. I just don't like it and I don't buy you know
And so I started to be like, oh my gosh, what have I done?
Like I'm trying to do contemporary and Regency and not like sometimes readers intersect, but sometimes they don't
And then I just had to be like, you know what fuck it. I can't worry about it. Like I just have to like

(06:55):
I have to just go through it and like, you know make it happen and not stress about it. I
Mean those that that's the entire vibe of like what I got from it that it was just fun
And it didn't take itself too seriously, but it ended up being a very emotional and a wonderful book
Like I just I loved it so much and I was like as long as you don't expect like a play-by-play hockey game or

(07:17):
Like a Jane Austen book like literal word-for-word
I think you'll have a good time for both like contemporary and historical readers because I do think there was a good balance
I mean, I'm not someone who needs like
Historical accuracy so I'm maybe not the best person to ask like in that
historical reader sense, but I think it was
Would have been easy enough for people who haven't really read Regency

(07:38):
To kind of dabble with it. Yeah, I mean we talked about especially like I think it was before
Either of us had read it at all just like when we saw the announcement talking about like that's a really great like intro to
Historical romance concept. We're always
Like we and then also me and my job because I work for a romance publisher
I work in marketing and we are always talking about like how can we get more people into historical romance? Like

(08:02):
There are just so many readers that refuse to read it
And so when we saw this one, we were like, oh, that's a really good right like unfired like a history lesson or not sexy
Or whatever and it's ironic because it invented romance basically, but like
It's such a good like intro like if you like hockey romances and you like this hot like it's contemporary
And then it literally sucks you through a portal into a historical setting and I'm like good

(08:26):
Yes, what a good like gateway of like pulling people into this even if they haven't read other historical romances
And the adjacency to Jane Austen like I think it was very fun that you didn't make it
Like she's either Jane Austen or it's like a pride and prejudice like fully
But like the adjacency to it where you could like see like the excellent boiled potatoes and like the little like things

(08:46):
And then you had Jane there writing it like that was just so fun and the perfect amount of like Jane Austen
That I wanted in it because like it was its own thing and it could just like exist
And be so fun
Um, and I just I love time travel so like when I first saw the cover
I think it was maybe on twitter and people were like is it like because I don't know if like the summary was out

(09:06):
I don't really know
But I don't think we really thought that it was like time travel back
Like because there was one other book that like looked like it was time travel
But they were it was just they were doing a play like in contemporary times
And so I was like, is that it? And then when I read it like the summary I said, oh, yeah
He goes back in time. Good
I was so excited so what's really funny and I didn't think about this at all

(09:30):
But they gave me the cover and when they gave me the cover, I was like, i'm just posting it. I'm stoked
I'm just like ready to post
And so what I did was um, I got the cover. I posted it and I didn't realize it was april fools day
People that were just like this concept so funny someone could really write this
Concept so funny someone could really write this. Oh no, it was like but I did I did write it

(09:57):
And so that was really funny, I mean there have been like so many things with this where i've been like, oh
Um, but I do want to know because you're right. There's not a lot of hockey that happens in this way
As there shouldn't be
I
I make no apologies, but there is a reason I chose it which was like beyond just like being um,
Um, I guess like trying to like cash into like the idea of hockey

(10:21):
And it was the idea of it was essentially that if you think of like in historical romance like the big archetype
That's really popular is like the duke and so dukes kind of like fit this fantasy
And I was like what would be like the duke of like now?
Is kind of the hockey player at this moment like your heart moment in a big way
So I feel like it kind of hits that archetypal like absolutely and so that was

(10:42):
You know, i'm making myself sound smarter than I am but that was like my thinking behind it a little bit because I
I don't read a lot of reviews. I don't think it's good for me to do that and I kind of really do
faces to be those spaces
But I cannot miss when people come into my inbox to like offer me their two sets
And they definitely there was a pipeline from twitter to me that like was very I can imagine. Oh god, and that's fine. I have

(11:07):
I truly am a Virgo and will be like bring me all your things. I will not be very like moved by it
As a cancer, I can't relate
I would be crumbling on the floor. Yeah, I was I was actually very surprised how little crumbling I had I was like, yeah, okay
I'd just be like you're not fun. Bye

(11:27):
Like sorry
You pulled a chaperone. You're not fun
But yeah, so anyway, I just felt like that was kind of where I was going with my my thought process and I do have um
The other thing is it's not a standalone. Um, I think it's I was gonna ask
So I have the i've just finished the next book and i've handed it in and so I'm always

(11:48):
Very hungry to see some hockey on the ground
Your wish is coming. Um
And I mean, I guess I haven't announced it so i'll just share it here because I haven't announced it yet
Um, so I have to like i'll say the name and then i'll kind of give you how the spelling is because the spelling's a little
Bit different so it's called the emma. It's called the emma effect
And um, but it's e dot m dot m dot a

(12:11):
Okay, that makes sense. So it is going to be another hockey jane austin ish
Book there's no time travel in this book, but it does have its like own hook
So it's called the emma effect
Which I can give you whatever i'll just keep that. I love emma
The very loose hook on this is going to be the harry harriet will be the heroine

(12:32):
And emma, I got the idea for this also through a conversation with my agent
So you'll kind of get the premise when I like tell you I was talking with her about something and she's like I need to go
in another room
Um, my husband's on a work call and he's getting really mad and her husband's like, oh my god
I need to go in another room. Um, my husband's on a work call and he's getting really mad and her husband works in ai

(12:55):
And so they were talking about their ai that they'd been working on and the ai had started to give dating advice
And so they were getting upset and I was like, oh my god, that's such a funny book idea
And so I basically have um my emma is going to be um
Like a sports enhancement or a ai
That begins to get really nice.

(13:18):
I'm delighted.
Oh no.
I love.
And it's going to be an older woman.
So it's going to be best friend's little brother is the drill.
Oh good.
Yeah.
I just read a best friend's little brother and it was a great time for me.
So love this personally.
I just personally.
Yeah, I think it's fun.

(13:38):
So anyway, that's where, so I just like the idea of, because you were talking about historical,
like Jane Austen was writing contemporary romance, right?
Like she was like the original contemporary romance writer talking about her world.
And so I liked all the making of kind of content out there.
Like I love how did this get made?
I love all that kind of stuff.
So I just did like a tongue in cheek kind of.

(14:00):
That's why that's like, that's where like the boiled potatoes reference, you know, things
like that.
What would it be like to kind of see where somebody's pulling some of their creative
ideas?
Like I didn't want to do like a blow by blow of everything, but just have enough that it
feels like if you know, you know, and if you have, and some people are going to be like,
I never read any Jane Austen.
And if they miss it all, like that's fine.
But like I wanted to have some fun Easter eggs for people.

(14:22):
Well, that's the trap.
I think that some retellings fall into is that they really rely on the parent text.
And then it's hard to get the people who maybe haven't read that and are just picking this
up blindly and that don't quite realize.
And then there are like some holes and all of that.
So I think that is a clever way to kind of avoid that, you know, kind of like toss them
in as little Easter eggs, but they don't, they're not like critical to the plot in a

(14:44):
way that would impact reading for people who don't know.
Yeah.
Can I ask, semi adjacent, can I ask about like, how did you research?
Like did you research like?
Yeah.
So yeah.
So well, I will say I am an avid Regency reader.
Like I start my first book.
That was one of our questions too.
Yeah.
So one of my first, the first book I ever wrote ever was a historical romance that's set on

(15:09):
a convict ship going to Australia.
It is not, I got my mind releasing it.
That would be fun.
I will say it's a great idea.
It was really good, but it was not good.
Like technically it's a terrible book.
Sure.
But I wrote it basically for myself.

(15:31):
I'd had my second child.
I have really, really, I did not know at the time, but I, I'm full blown ADHD.
And so I'd become a stay at home parent kind of through an unlikely situation of like two
small children.
And I was really just like not, I mean, I love my kids, but I just, my mind, like I
just was, I just had too much in my head going on at all times.

(15:54):
And so I decided, you know what?
I've always thought about writing a book.
I have like, these kids are all doing like nap times randomly.
Like I don't know.
I'm not going to sit and like, I'm not a great cleaner.
Like I'm just not going to do that.
So I was like, why don't I just try writing a book and see how that goes?
And so I started writing like 500 words a day, 600 words a day.

(16:14):
And I just stayed really consistent at doing it, but I had no idea.
Like I didn't read, I didn't like learn how I just had read books and was like, I guess
I can write a book.
Right.
I can not.
Like it was a book at the end, but it was like very meandering.
Like the plot points were all kind of like, you know, it was, it was a hot mess.
But from there I went to like, you know, like a conference.

(16:38):
I like started to like meet people.
I made, started to make friends and I ended up doing like querying and writing agents
and things like that.
And I ended up, I did get offers.
Like I think people saw potential even though the book wasn't great.
And so I was just really lucky.
I signed with my agent at the time and I've stayed with her the entire time since.
I've kind of lost where I was going with the original question that you had, which was

(16:59):
research.
Research.
So I had always read historicals.
It was like where I started, like where I always was as a reader, even though I was
writing often more contemporary, I read historicals a lot.
For this book, I just wanted to make sure that like I was covering some bases, but again,
I didn't, what I was afraid of was overloading my brain so much that I felt this really high

(17:23):
pressure to like regurgitate.
So I read a couple of, like I listened to some audio books that were just kind of like,
of like the life and times of Jane Austen.
I read some of the letters because a lot of her letters actually haven't survived.
Her sister burned most of her, like her sister was her closest friend.
Most of her correspondence went to her sister and her sister had a lot of it and her sister

(17:44):
destroyed everything after her death.
There are letters that exist, but not many.
But I read a couple of them just to kind of get the vibes a little bit.
And so I read like, yeah, one or two biographies and then a couple of just kind of like Regency
World kind of listened to those while I was driving around.
And then I just kind of pulled like my general historical.
So I wanted to have enough that I had like some working basis and some working knowledge,

(18:07):
but not so much that like I've, I didn't want to freeze myself up so much.
Cause I was afraid I'd get more performance anxiety than I already had.
That's I think that would be very hard.
Like I feel like if I were ever to write a book, it would have to be contemporary cause
the research part of historical, I love historical more than anything, but I think I would get
two in the weeds with it.

(18:27):
I think it would stress me out.
Cause I'm like the things that I think I know, I probably don't know.
Yeah.
And there are, I mean, it is nice.
The other thing that I would do for myself, which sucks for me, but like, is I think helpful
is I would write things.
And then sometimes if I wasn't sure, I would just leave notes, like can you check that?
And so later it sucks to like go back and like see me like, you know, like I have to

(18:50):
go back and like figure some of these things out.
But a lot of it was more, I mean, again, not to sound like super nerdy, but like I knew
some of like the vernacular of like, you know, like, and I just was like, I feel like this
will feel distancing.
And I had like one of my friends who reads no historical, I would be like, can you read
this chapter?
And she'd be like, I don't know what like five of those things are.
Yeah.
Okay.

(19:11):
And then I'd be like, that's, I like it there, but then I'm like, is that really that important?
Like, we can kind of pare this down.
Cause I don't want it to be, I didn't want it to feel super distancing.
I just wanted it to feel like a fun read.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's definitely interesting having my friends who don't read historical.
I'm like, how about you read this, like set like something and they even struggle with
even like a test of dare or something like that, which I feel is like a very good entrance.

(19:33):
And so it is like, you kind of have to be like tossed into the fire with the true like
passion to want to read it.
Like if you're trying to go for like one of the traditional like mass markets.
So I do think this would be a very good, like we were saying earlier introduction, very
light and easy and like a kind of like a crash course a little bit in some of like the historical

(19:56):
romance, like, I don't know, like tropes and stuff and rules and all of that, but nothing
too heavy or like muddying.
Especially cause Tuck sort of stands in for the reader.
Yeah.
Like literally completely unfamiliar with historical reader where he's like, you want me to wear
what?
Why are we going to Gretna Green?

(20:17):
What are we doing?
Like, you're right.
You're right.
I'm putting clothes on me.
Like, I don't understand why can't I get dressed by myself?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, so this is another thing I do know I've gotten some feedback and I feel like,
again, I'm not trying to film myself.
I think like this is like, sometimes I get to like the same thing about some of these
questions.
So one of the things that I've had feedback on and again, look, someone smarter than me

(20:40):
could have handled it maybe better.
And I like always give props to that.
A feedback I've had is like, if I had gone back in time, I would have so many more questions.
And I was like, yeah, me too.
Like I would too.
I would spend my entire time being like, holy shit, this is crazy.
I didn't feel like that would be that, I didn't know how to write that way that would feel

(21:01):
interesting as a reader.
So when I watch K dramas, a lot of like when I was pulling for like the water portal stuff,
one thing that will happen is like they'll portal through, they'll be like, this is wild.
Like I cannot believe this happened on with the story.
And so I was like, I kind of just appreciated like, I was like, oh, so you just get on with
it then like you don't spend your whole time doing what I would naturally do, which is

(21:22):
just spend the whole time being like, this is crazy.
This is crazy every day.
And so that's why I chose not to do it was because I felt like I did not have a way that
I knew of to make that not feel very boring to read, even though I feel like it's very
realistic.
And then in someone else's hands, they might have done that much better than me.
So that was why I chose to kind of have them be like, this is wild, but kind of on with

(21:45):
the story.
Well, you have to I mean, I feel like I've read so many fantasy like portal fantasy novels
where they go through and they spend so much time asking questions.
And it's just a way for the author to like info dump about the world.
And like, this is boring.
Give it to me as you go through the story.
Like it's just not interesting to me to read somebody coming through and do I mean, I would
do the same thing.

(22:05):
I would be like, I have every question in the whole world that I have to ask you right now.
But I don't want to read that.
I want to read it like as things come up, they address the questions rather than just
like, yeah, I'm with you.
I thought you handled that really well.
So yeah.
And that's that's why I liked the hockey player in a sub at all, too, because I mean, you
don't really expect hockey players have any knowledge of the Regency.

(22:28):
So there wasn't any like, I don't know, I was trying to think about when I first saw
I was like hockey player.
I was like, what do you mean hockey player?
And then the more I think about it, that's genius because like what's funnier than someone
who has no idea about the time that they're about to like drop into.
So I was like, if you have like a history professor, like it dropped in, like if he's
the hero, you have a little bit of that, you know, like throughout the book.
But if you have like a history professor as the hero and he loves this time period and

(22:51):
he's just like going off about other things he loves and all that, I'm like, that wouldn't
be interesting.
I'm like, I just might be that might be a fun other book.
But yeah.
But in this context, I was like, I think it's just so fun that he has no clue and he doesn't
really care.
Like, he's just kind of going for the ride.
And I was like, yes, I love that.
Yeah, and another question was like, kind of like, why goalie?

(23:12):
And I guess for me, I was like, a goalie felt like if I had to pick someone.
And again, this is a gross stereotype, but there are stereotypes exist for some reasons.
And so one of it is kind of like, goalies often can be seen as like a little bit more
eccentric, like that can just be like, and so of course, that's just, again, a stereotype,
but like, you know, they exist for there's an archetype for a reason.

(23:35):
And so I was like, okay, having somebody who is a little bit more like, yeah, eccentric
or out there willing to be like, okay, I guess this is like, you know, what we do now.
And I did want them to be like, I wanted there to be a reason I'm in my himbo era, I feel
like I'm right.
And so and so I'm doing there are not enough good himbo's.

(23:56):
And I'm doing I just wrote another himbo.
Like, I feel like I'm just really feeling the himbo at the moment.
Good.
Good.
Yeah, I love that.
I was like, can I describe him as a himbo?
And I was like, yeah, yeah, I can.
In my review.
But yeah, I was like, awesome.
Yeah, no, I was like, yes, I love himbo.

(24:17):
Because like, I think Elizabeth Everett, her third book, she writes her historical romance
for Berkeley.
And in her first series, she wrote a himbo character like a golden retriever himbo.
And I was like, yes, and I haven't seen a lot of them.
And I really think Loretta Chase has a good one in her most recent series.
But it's definitely far and few between.

(24:39):
So I appreciate everyone we get.
Thank you.
I feel like I used so I've always loved like, the Byronic characters kind of just like the
more tortured email, like I just always I've just always loved them.
Like, I don't know if you read like, you know, the Greeks, then like with like the fantasy,
but I was like a big darkling.
Like, I've always wanted like justice for the darkling character.

(25:00):
Very toxic, but like I was in love with that character very much.
So I mean, I've always kind of liked us.
I've always liked enough fantasy like a problematic character.
But I was like, I want to be writing these people.
I want to like that.
Like I want to be like, oh, yeah, that's why I think for me personally, 2024 felt like
the era of like, we need some himbo.

(25:21):
We had Barbie happen.
Like we just were ready.
But also, I just feel like a himbo, you have to take a character out of the contemporary
world if you're going to put him back into a like deeply patriarchal world.
He's got to be deeply, deeply respectful of women.
And who is more respectful of women than a himbo?

(25:44):
When he was like, guess what?
Tampons.
That was my favorite.
That was also when the reporting on tampons came out that they're actually slowly poisoning
us.
So that's unfortunate.
Well you know what?
He will then be bringing back like, you know, diva cups or something.
Exactly.
His diva era.

(26:06):
Yeah, I love that.
But that was another thing too is like, because some of this, of course, people were having
sex out of wedlock, like in the Regency as well.
But I was trying to have like there be a little bit of like the sense of like most likely,
like you know, chances are like she probably wouldn't have.
And so I also wanted, I had an aversion of like not wanting a man to teach you like the

(26:33):
pleasures of your body where you're like, you're like, I'm unlocked and I never knew
these things existed.
And so that was also where I came up because I was like also getting to that and I'm like,
okay, like, I don't know how to not do that.
And what am I going to do?
And that's when I was like, well, what if she just like finds a sex manual?
And then like, he's like, all right, like, I'm just gonna like open that up and kick
back and like learn a few things.

(26:55):
And so that's kind of where that came from too, is so that like, she had some agency
and like her own like sexual journey that wasn't just like, you touched me and I never
knew that like my body could do that, which again is like that's fine fantasy.
But I just thought that again, in like a really patriarchal society, it would be nice to have
somebody like, yeah, doing it for themselves.

(27:17):
Yeah, and then talking about literally talking about tortured heroes, he was tortured in
the sexual manner.
He was so he was so unwell.
That's my favorite kind of tortured hero.
That was so fun to read.
That was part of the the I don't even know how I found where to flip to today to like
read the 20% that I did.

(27:37):
But that was part of the part and I was like, hell yeah.
In the stables just absolutely unwell.
Yeah, I do like writing masturbation a lot.
It's underrated.
It very much is.
Yeah, I feel like I am an emotional edger when like I enjoy edging is to terms of like,
and I feel like yeah, when you can do the masturbation first, you can really hit the

(28:00):
like the longing and the desire but you still have like the payoff coming of like, you know,
when are they gonna like hook up and like get to it.
And so I think I've always I've just really always enjoyed throwing a little masturbation
in.
Oh, you're my kind of author.
Thank you.
It really is.
They're just so fun to read because you never know like, if someone like overs like someone

(28:23):
sees like the other character like there's just so many things you can do with it.
They're just make it so much fun.
What are the horses thinking?
Think about the horses.
Makes me think of the Lisa Claypuss.
Yeah, it all flower Christmas, every time the horses come up where they hook up in the

(28:45):
stable.
Yeah, he's like, check out South there are no servants and my horses don't gossip.
That's me.
Yeah.
The Wallflower series is probably like my favorite historical series.
It's like in my top two in my top two.
Well, that leads.
Yeah.
Into the next, which is I want all the well, I also want to talk about K dramas, too.
I would like some recommendations, but I guess let's start with historical romance.

(29:08):
What do you love?
Your first favorites.
Oh, gosh.
So I have some like big classics that I just I'm just always going to love.
So I really love Laura Kinsell.
Yes, Caroline does too.
Yeah, I just love her.
I love everything that she writes.

(29:28):
She has a book.
So I don't know if you've read this, Caroline.
It's called The Shadow and the Star.
I think not yet, but I do have a copy of it.
Okay.
The book is, look, she's a she's she will outwrite me.
She will outwrite almost anyone in the world all the time.
So I'm bringing no judgment to this.
It is a wild book.
It's a little messy.

(29:48):
That's what I want.
The hero is like kind of a ninja.
And this is a historical and so I mean, I kind of he like is a ninja, but he also it
has the best de virginizing scene I've ever read in my entire year.
I love to hear it.
And it's one of these scenes where like he doesn't really know about sex.

(30:10):
She doesn't really know about sex, but their bodies just like know what to do and they're
kind of overcome.
And so he will like ninja in her room at night and hang in the ceilings and stuff.
And then like finally at one point they hook up, but their bodies don't know what's happening
and they're just like, and then they just like have sex.
And I was just this is amazing.

(30:31):
Yeah.
I do think I own a copy of that too.
We do an episode on that, Caroline.
You're welcome to come back.
I will come back anytime.
I mean, because Flowers from the Storm is like the most famous.
It is like the class.
It's just beautiful.
So anyway, I can talk a lot about her books, but I like her.
And one of the reasons I like her is a lot of her books are super random.

(30:53):
Like there's just like random like she goes out there.
She has done books that are like in full like medieval dialogue.
The medievals are my favorites.
Yes.
And it's awesome.
And she just like could do.
So I don't know.
I just like that idea that like you can just kind of like do what you're into and do what
you want.
And then like it's fun and you like it.
So I really like those.
The other series that had me by the throat in a really big way is the Spy Master series

(31:16):
by Joanna Byrne.
That has been on my list for a long time.
It sounds familiar.
I'm obsessed with them.
And so it's English, Spy Masters and spies during, you know, like all the conflicts with
France and the women are all French and the women are generally all spies.
So you have these like Spy Masters like trying to like break into the webs of different things.

(31:39):
And then the women are all super smart and super French.
And so there are all these like British men that are like undone by these like wily, beautiful
smart French women.
And they're really great books.
So I really love those.
I love Tessa Dare, of course.
So yeah, I mean, like, but those are the ones that I think when I like fell in love again
with historical romance, because I read historical romance when I was really when I was much

(32:03):
younger.
So I'm older than both of you.
I can just tell by looking at both of you like I'm older than both of you.
So when I was in like seventh and eighth grade, I would that was the era I think or I don't
know if it was the era but there were still books on my aunt's shelves that were from
like what I would call the rape to love you era.
Right.

(32:23):
Of course, is problematic, but is also I think just such an interesting because I think like
romance reflects the time so much.
And I'm sure you all talk about this in the pot a lot.
But I think that era really does touch into that idea of like, women starting to feel
like they like have this permission and this agency to have these feelings and this desire,
but it still wasn't like completely empowered, right?

(32:46):
And so you would be in the men this power because they would come and kind of take it
from you and then you would have these feelings you'd never felt before, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
So I kind of like when I was younger, I read a lot like there were many lards who just
you said no and that meant like, yes, right now apparently.
Yeah.
I mean, I was like, highly problematic content from like, yeah, from a young age.

(33:11):
And it didn't like shape me in that but it just made me like, I mean, I was in study
hall, I was I moved a lot when I was young.
My seventh grade year, I moved like four times.
I did not it was not my finest looking year.
I was like super nerdy.
I didn't have a lot of friends.
And so I would just read these like wildly dirty, inappropriate, like layered books.
And so I think I kind of like fell in love with that.

(33:32):
And then I became like more literary, I became more sobby.
I like did a creative writing major in college.
And so I kind of was on like, I never wanted to do an MFA but I was in like, you know,
poetry and short story critique groups and yeah, nothing's more humbling.
Yeah, and genre fiction is just not even talked about.
Like there was no word to talk about like, how do you write and how do you like make

(33:54):
a career you just kind of like, you know, our performance and I mean, like there's a
beauty to it.
And there's a lot of like love of writing.
But I just like I didn't walk away from that experience being like, oh, I definitely will
do that as a job.
I was like, I got a degree in writing and now I'm going to go work in nonprofit.
And so I kind of came into the commercial fiction space later being like, oh, you can

(34:14):
actually like, do that.
I used to really love these books and I kind of like snobby out of them.
And now I'm like, now I'm over whatever coolness I pretended to have.
And I'm just going to embrace who I really am, which is like, when people are like, you're
cringe, you're writing cringe.
I'm like, I'm the cringiest.
I have my kids.
I'm like the cringiest person you're going to like.
And that's fine.

(34:35):
It's just like who I am.
And so yeah, I'm going to write commercial fiction that's going to be like probably a
little bit cringy.
And I just like that's what comes out of me.
Like that is what my voice is.
Are you cringe though?
Or is it just like earnest?
And I was going to say, I didn't find it cringe.
I mean, look, I don't know because my daughter, like it's interesting.

(34:57):
You can't trust your kids on that.
I'm saying that as a daughter.
Yeah, no, no, of course.
I will.
Yes.
I definitely feel like this as well, but I will say it's interesting because I feel like
I'm like raising my children with a value of like being sex positive, being body positive.
Like, you know, let's talk about these.
They hate it.

(35:20):
I would have to at that age.
I can't, I can't blame them.
My 14 year old's like, please never speak to me of this.
Or I'll try to be like, let's watch Korean dramas.
And she's like, oh my God, it's just also cringe.
It's just, and I'm like, no, it's just happy.
They're falling in love.
It's tropey.
And so I'm like, oh, you're just in the stage where like you're going to move on from this.
But right now, like, unfortunately, society has its like grip on you a little too hard.

(35:43):
And then at some point, like you're going to like dig yourself out from under that and
like go for it again.
Well, and I do think like reading older historical romance has really opened me up to just like
the wild of it all.
Kind of like you were touching on a little bit earlier that like Laura Kinzel could just
like put like crazy side plots and all of that.
Like the more old ones I read, the more that I'm just like willing to embrace just whatever.

(36:08):
Like I don't like I prefer a lot of times like older ones are sometimes like I crave
that.
So I'm like, I kind of want the edgier just like do whatever they want things because
they're just fun.
And so I guess given.
Yeah.
Be a ninja.
Be a time traveling hockey player or a time traveling Puritan witch.

(36:28):
All that three Smitty Rose.
Amazing.
Like, I can't question that.
Yeah, I just might to judge.
It's fun to be a little bit surprised.
It's fun to be kind of taken aback.
Exactly.
And I do believe there was one person who wrote me and said that I was bringing about
the death of literature and I just want to I want to blow them just like a gentle kiss

(36:49):
and be like, and I hope like honestly, thank you.
Thank you for honoring me with that.
Like I wish I could put that in the blur of my book because it would be amazing.
Nobody would.
Literature.
But I was just also like, really?
Like, it's a lot of responsibility on your shoulders.
Yeah.
I thought I was like, did I?
I was like, I don't think so.

(37:10):
I mean, it is just like a silly.
I was like, why?
I just don't like for real touch grass.
Go outside.
Rachel Ziegler, I think, had the recent quote of like, go eat a snack, go touch some grass.
But also, if you want to put that at my feet, like I won't.
I mean, I'm not going to not be a little proud.
Exactly.

(37:30):
I like the idea of that being the blurb on the book.
I thought so too.
That and there was one other T-shirt that I saw.
This one I saw.
Nobody sent it to me, but I did see it somewhere.
I think it was on TikTok or something, but it was really, really funny.
And I wanted to give them a shout out.
And then I'm like, this looks bad if I give you a shout out because it's like not classy.
But somebody wrote Jane Austen didn't die for this.

(37:53):
And that was amazing.
If that person ever hears it, I want them to know that was very good.
That was fun.
I mean, I kind of feel like Jane Austen would love it.
I was like, she did die of Addison's disease.
Factually, I want to get my nerd on, but like, you know.
I'm going to put on my, used to be a member of the Jane Austen Society of North America.

(38:17):
I stopped paying my fees, but emotionally, I'm still a member.
And I'm going to say, I think she would eat it up.
I think she would love Puck and Prejudice.
I also think she would love Bride and Prejudice.
Like there are just so many good feelings.
There's so many.
I love the Lizzie Bennet Diaries that were on YouTube.
I was like obsessed with the Lizzie Bennet Diaries.
I think we all were.

(38:37):
Yeah.
It's just, these are fun.
Like, it's just like, it's fun.
Yeah.
I mean, that really was my entire view is like, guys, this is fun.
I don't know why you're being weird.
Like, because I'm like, why can't he be a hockey player who time travels?
Like tell me why.
If we're accepting time traveling, can happen.

(38:58):
If Laura Kinzale can write ninjas coming into your, and Quakers and men in asylums.
Who cares?
But I say, let's have more.
Honestly, for me, it's like, let's just do more.
Because I do like to be, I think it's fun to be a little bit surprised.

(39:18):
And of course, like this, it won't be everyone's cup of tea and that's a hundred percent fine.
But like, I'd like there to be something then that surprises you listener who this isn't
your cup of tea that like, I want you to be surprised.
Like we all deserve to have like a little bit of surprise and just be like, oh, this
is fun.
I didn't know about this.
Yeah.
Well, that's, I mean, that's exactly how I felt.
Like as I was reading, I was like, I really, really like this.

(39:38):
Because I read it just because I was like, this is a fun concept, but you never know
how it's going to be executed.
And it was so much fun.
It's kind of how I feel about Sally Thorne's Angelica Frankenstein Makes Her Match.
Caroline, we both love that book and that's another one that like people, you get it or
you don't.
And if you don't, I'm so sorry.
And people like vehemently did not like that book.
No.

(39:59):
Yeah.
No.
Probably the same ones that vehemently don't like this.
Like I think you should all take a breath.
And I think it's like, she'll be fine.
Like everyone's fine.
You don't have to like, everyone's not going to like everything and it's fine.
I mean, that's the biggest thing though, is I just think that like, whatever.
I mean, like, yeah, there's a bazillion books.

(40:21):
Just like read the book you're going to like them.
Right.
Hannah and I talk about this a lot because we get very frustrated by like, I think it's
so hard for authors writing now to have as much fun or go as far as they may want to.
I think because there's so many readers that will react so strongly to anything outside
of like the very basic contemporary structure or like any kind of problematic characters

(40:44):
or any kind of like excessive fun or silliness.
And I obviously this is not something that has held you back, but I just feel like I
read so many books where I'm like, this was fine, but it was very straightforward and
boring and you could have gone more bonkers with X, Y, and Z. And I feel like so much
of it is just like readers get so mad.
I'm feeling that a lot recently.

(41:04):
Specifically in historical, I see that a lot.
No, I feel like I could have gotten more bonkers.
I feel like I didn't want to go full bonkers, but what you just said to me felt like all
I want to do is be like, well, what else?
What could, like, let's go more bonkers.
Like let's.
I want more bonkers.
Not bonkers just to be bonkers, but bonkers like you're a ninja who doesn't understand

(41:26):
how your body works and suddenly you're just having sex.
Like that is amazing.
I mean, I do want to say I was to be clear commending this, but like I agree.
I see what you're saying about like it could have been more bonkers.
I think it hits a really sweet spot of like just bonkers enough without going so crazy
that you're like, all right, maybe calm down a little.
Like it's just a good time.

(41:46):
Oh, well, thank you very much.
You've both been amazing for my ego.
Thank you.
I just feel very strongly that we need more silly, goofy books.
So I'm reading it and I'm like, yes, give me more silly, goofy.
Yeah.
So this is out the week after the election, which was not.
Yeah, but I really.
So first of all, I live in a.

(42:06):
I'm just going to make an assumption that like, you know, of like certain views and
certain, you know, whatever.
I live in a post-election reality.
I've just moved there already.
So I have people around me that are stressed.
I'm like, oh, I'm done.
Like we've already we're already on the other side of this.
And so but yeah.
So what I'm hoping is again.
Like the reason romance is so awesome and rad is because it is a place where people

(42:35):
want to make us sad and worried for very specific reasons.
Like there's an agenda that wants us to be worried and on edge and like not good and
disempowered.
And so I feel like every time people pick up a silly romance book, a dark romance book,
like anything you're connecting in kind of with the fact that like you deserve to have
some entertainment, you deserve to have pleasure.

(42:56):
These characters are deserving of pleasure.
Like we all are deserving of having happiness in our lives.
So it's such a subversive genre that that's what I want to ban it.
Yeah.
And they try to shame it and they try to make it.
And so whatever people are doing that, you're like, why?
It's probably because it's really important and good.
No, literally.
I just think that it was just such a fun time.

(43:22):
And I think I did want to read it because I was seeing some of the just like people
not being able to be fun.
Like I was like, OK, you guys, that's why they're kind of marketing for you.
Yeah.
I was like, I want to read this because one, the premise sounds amazing, but two, live
a little.
Why not?
It's like those.
Have you seen that like one star reviews that convinced you to read the book?

(43:48):
And I mean, I'm a hater.
Don't get me wrong.
I love to hate things.
I have written several one star reviews.
Yes, that's happened.
Yeah.
But like, I hate it, I don't know, intelligently.
Oh, in my mind, you unintentionally recruited us to fight your battles for you.
That's what we're trying to tell you.

(44:10):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'm I can be a hater, but I try to.
So first of all, I have sympathy like I'm never going to be.
I will never review books anymore.
I've just decided that's like it will not be very hard, isn't it?
Yeah.
And I was just one.
That's just not cool.
No.
I mean, we talked a little bit about like Korean dramas.
I will think about that, though, because we will.

(44:30):
There are times where I will like super hate on something.
But again, not hating it like the human who like was on the other end.
Exactly.
This is like morally corrupt in some way.
But sometimes it is fun to like go on a hateathon.
And like, if it's going to bring someone joy to go on a hateathon for me, like I true.
I like I don't want to look.
I think I've just hit like my perimenopause era.

(44:52):
And I'm just like, I just you do what you need to do.
I'm going to be OK.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's not like I don't.
I just think that if you brought on the death of literature, then some of these people are
bringing on the death of joy.
Like I just feel like literature is stronger than I'm just going to make a hypothesis literature
stronger than this.

(45:16):
I don't think so.
I think you single handedly brought it down with the power of your home.
I really wish I could write.
But Lee Riley just fucking ruined it for everyone.
I wonder if you know more about no more books.
They're gone forever.
It is just crazy.
The intersection of people who are like angry, you know, you got the Jane Austen readers,

(45:36):
you've got just and I'm like, I don't know your power.
Yeah, it fits.
It just fits with like I think like the spiritual growth that I meant to have at this point
in my life.
So just like, look, it really frees.
It becomes so liberate.
I think that's because I guess there's always a fear of what do you do if like you become
kind of like slightly hated.

(45:57):
And I mean, like, I've just never been a big enough author that people have like super
cared.
Like I've had people like review my books I've had I've done like, okay, but I mean,
I've just never been like, and there was just one morning that I literally woke up.
And there was actually a lot going on in my home that day.
So I was like slightly distracted.
And I was like, somebody like asked me like a random question about like hockey players.

(46:18):
And I like responded.
And then it wasn't rude, but it wasn't like nice.
And I was like, oh, this is random.
Like, I'll give you an honest.
Oh, I remember what it was.
It was I mean, I'm just feeling like we're just having the tea tonight now just because
like, I don't know, I can talk about it.
So somebody wrote me and was like, why do you not have a goalie on the cover of the
book?
Yeah.
And I was like, go, I don't want to like talk about my personal life so much.

(46:40):
But there was like something happening that I was like, handling personally, like with
one of my kids.
And at the same time, I like have a sheet, I get stressed, like if somebody responds
to me and they can see I like, I was like, what if they see I like read it and ignored
it.
I'm like, I'm just going to answer because otherwise I'm going to forget and then I'm
going to remember later and I'm going to stress.
So I think I just wrote back something like, because I don't design the covers for these
books like they're traditionally published.

(47:01):
So basically, I like in the cover and like I move on with my life.
So I think I wrote back and said something like, yeah, I understand.
I think it was like an aesthetic choice by like the publisher or something like that,
something to that effect.
And that led to a discussion apparently that I like hated goalies or something.
I don't know.

(47:22):
All of a sudden, just like anti goalie era.
Instagram has never been so left.
Also, I was like, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
And I had all these messages.
I was like, I don't understand.
I was like truly flummoxed.
I was like, I don't understand what's happening.
I'm like, I'll get to this when I get to work.
So I get to work and I start clicking through and I'm like, people are pissed.
But I'm like, where did they come from?
And then somebody was like, I just came by.

(47:43):
Somebody was like, I just came from Twitter to shit on this book.
And I was like, with her, that's where it is.
So I was definitely Twitter.
I was witnessing it.
And I looked at it being like, oh my gosh, this is wild.
And so I just was like, well, you know what?

(48:06):
I had some people who like, and again, I'm not calling them out because I want them to
feel respected to some degree.
Even if they couldn't give me respect, there were people who redid my covers and made their
own Photoshop goalies to be like there, that's how hard it was.
And I appreciate it.
Thank you.
I am glad that that...
I mean, here's the thing is there's things I deeply care about in this world.

(48:30):
And so if that was your thing and that made you move on with something, you process something
there, you got your own on me that day.
I hope it helped.
I really do.
And I'm not trying to be like, I'm pissed about it.
I just didn't know what to say.
I was like, okay.
I was like, I'm not going to weigh into this.
Just like hop off.
But I can't say it wasn't like...

(48:50):
And then I had friends check in like, are you okay?
I was like, weirdly, I am like, I couldn't...
Like I'm fine.
And I was really surprised.
I was like, I really like...
This hit me at like a very good point in my life.
Like I'm like secure enough that I was like, well, crazy.
I mean, lots of free publicity.
It was.
It was a lot.
That's why I read this book.

(49:10):
I wasn't done writing it.
That was the other thing that was crazy.
It's still fitting.
I had like a chapter or two to go and people were like, this is the worst book.
This is going to be the worst book that was ever written.
I'm like, I hope not because I have to write the last chapter.
Suddenly a bomb goes off and they're all gone.
You're like, that's it.
So that was the other wild part.
I was like, I'm truly still...

(49:30):
It was all a dream.
And so I was like, well, then that's...
And so that's why, again, it wasn't bad to interact with it, but I was like, I don't
need to sit here and hover on it.
There was like one day of wildness and then I just was like, I'm going to kind of move
on.
That's fair.
Probably very healthy.
Would not be my response at my big age of 25.

(49:51):
I would cry.
Not me at 25 either, but you know what?
I am 45.
And so I was able to be like, like life.
And I also work at a university and universities, like people are always yelling.
And so I was like, I'm kind of just used to it.
And truly just being traditionally published knowing that you really do not have like, what

(50:13):
can you do?
Yeah.
Just also knowing that.
I couldn't.
I really couldn't.
And so it was just like, you know, it is what it is and what it is.
And then there was someone else who like, and then it's also funny.
There's people who like think that like it was based on like specific players.
And they're like, I can tell by like how she designed it.
I'm like, I did not like, I love that she designed it.

(50:33):
Yeah.
Like, I don't know.
But one of my really good friends, unfortunately, who was also, she knows, like I like hockey.
I grew up in Minnesota.
Like, you know, I'm in Minnesota.
I'm from Minnesota.
Well, I don't want to out make you dox yourself.
Do you want to give a rough?
I'm in.
Okay.
So I grew, I went to high school at Bloomington Jefferson, which was a big hockey school.

(50:55):
Yeah.
And but anyway, so I have a friend who's Canadian who I was like her husband plays.
I would like ask her questions.
And when she got the cover, she was like, look, I'm really excited for this book.
The only thing is like, she's like, he looks like he plays for the Maple Leafs.
And I am so disappointed because I hate the Maple Leafs so much.
I was like, I'm so sorry.
Like, I didn't, I didn't make that.

(51:16):
I get it.
That's very funny.
I have some on Twitter.
I have some mutuals who are very big hockey fans.
Like I'm an occasional, I'm a wild fan, but they're like very into it.
Like I'm I guess the way I am about baseball.
And they have some very big opinions.
And like truly, that makes a lot of sense from what I've witnessed hockey fans and their

(51:39):
opinions about the hockey teams.
Yeah.
That's how I feel about the Yankees.
Even I'm like you.
Well, now I live in I live in California and I live kind of in the greater Bay.
I'm like not in the Bay, but I'm pretty close.
And so yeah, there's like a Giants Dodgers rivalry that's very strong.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it is nice to you don't have a very thick Minnesota accent.

(52:02):
It comes out like, like you can't say certain words and I bully her for it every time.
I've lived on both coasts and every time it's like bagel.
They really get me.
And I'm like, I can't hear a difference, guys.
I don't know what you're talking about.
I hear myself say like about like about like I the about get me if I'm not really like

(52:25):
focusing on it.
I did.
We took a trip to New York in high school and we had Canadian bus drivers.
And I will tell you, I noticed a difference.
So I am not that Canadian.
Because I heard like they were like a very Canadian.
I mean, you can get to like New Ulm.

(52:46):
That's very like the accents are very strong there.
I don't think really any of my family has like much of like a very strong like we all
all have like dialects and stuff.
But yeah, there are some towns you pass through and you're like, whoa.
Do you ever go to school?
It's the oop gonna switch right past you.
Yeah.
Oh, that's like ever I see my high school friends once a year we catch up and whenever

(53:07):
I hang out with them, because most of them still are in Minnesota, they're always like
go up.
And like, I literally like in the grocery store, I will be like sneaking past someone
say, oh, I'm just gonna sneak right past you.
Like, it's it does exist.
It does.
Oh, accents.
I did.
I'm from Texas.
And so I went home recently.

(53:27):
Yeah, we got both the Midwest and the Southern the Austin piece covered here.
But I went to school in Austin.
So I just my next book in Austin.
I love a book set in Austin.
I have so much fun every time I always know all the places.
But we just went back my friend and I for a sporting event.

(53:51):
And I did know that we listened to a lot of country music because I was trying to introduce
her to the culture.
And when we came back, I was like, oh, I don't have much of an accent.
But it does.
It comes out a little bit.
Does it?
Just a teeny tiny bit.
When I listen to country music, I noticed myself saying like instead of oil, I would
say like oil, no oil or like things like I would kind of start to get it just a tiny

(54:15):
little bit of a twang.
And I was like, oh, me when I sing old Taylor Swift reel that back in.
Yeah, that's right.
I was just watching some old twit Taylor, Taylor, Taylor Swift.
And I was like, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Her accent was popping up.
Yeah, it was amazing.
And in her like debut album.
Oh my God.
Yes.

(54:35):
And I literally have like a full on whatever accent she's doing.
I have it whenever I sing those songs.
Did you are you both Swifties or are you?
I am.
I grew up with like I've been a fan since her should have said no performance on the
ACM Awards in 2008.
I can't pinpoint the exact day.
Did you go on?
Did you see her?

(54:55):
Did you do the heirs tour?
Yes.
And then I'm going to the last show in Vancouver.
Very excited.
So I saw her in Minneapolis.
And then we tested the fates with my friends and we ended up getting tickets.
We all put our emails in.
My parents did.
And it was my mom's email that got we put it like I think we really tried for the first
two days of the show or like the stop in Vancouver.

(55:19):
And then I put her email in for the last day just because it was a Sunday.
I was like, it's kind of like inconvenient.
Not thinking it was like the last day of the tour.
And that was the only email that got a code.
Everything else was waitlisted.
I was able to get it was harder to get a hotel than the tickets.
It was cutthroat, but I'm very excited.
So I should have had debut and her accent.

(55:41):
I love Swiftie.
Like I'm not a Swiftie, but I love Swifties.
I really respect Taylor.
I like love a lot of her music, but I'm army.
So I am into BTS.
And I really understand.
There's actually a lot of romance authors.
It's very fun to see the different like avenues like Caroline loves F1.
Like all the different subsets of romance readers and like what we're fans of.

(56:04):
So I work in student affairs and a student that I work with is very, very interested
in F1.
So I've been talking about F1 more than I've ever talked about F1 in my life.
And then we have a neighbor who's kid they're like getting their child into like so they
like do like in a car.
Yes.
And they have this like very elaborate.
They have a lot of money.
Yeah, you got to.

(56:24):
They're in the fancy house up the street.
And anyway, like my husband came home one day and their kid is like getting into F1.
And now I see the cart and I'm always like, oh, like, oh, there's the car.
That's a I flew home yesterday, but that's my coworker who I also got into F1.
She and I went to the race in Austin.
That was this past weekend.

(56:45):
So that was the impetus to go south and pick up the draw.
I knew nothing about it.
I will confess.
Like I really did.
Like and again, like I know so little about some things that I like don't even have an
informed opinion to like be a hater or not.
But like I did really mess it up with NASCAR.
Like I just knew cars drove.
I knew cars drove fast.

(57:07):
And that was a parents went through a NASCAR phase.
It was wild Sundays where you couldn't do anything but watch cars go around and around.
Why do we like it was Tony Stewart.
I'm like, why?
I don't know.
First reasons.
I mean, like, again, I don't know why.
But I was very schooled like with the disappointment that was on the student when I was like, I
don't know much about it.
This is what I know.
And she was like, OK, so you know, literally nothing.

(57:28):
And I was like, OK, then like, let's like there's nowhere to go.
And so yeah, I've been learning a lot more.
And I really appreciate.
And then I was like, oh, OK, I kind of did know.
Because like I knew about like Monaco races.
I just never like thought of like I kind of knew they existed, but I never really thought
about it.
And then now I like, yeah, once a week, I'm talking F1 with her.
So there we go.
I love it.

(57:49):
You should watch the Netflix show.
It's so much drama.
What's it called?
Drive to Survive.
It's like a docu-series.
And has there been a lot of F1 romance?
Because I feel like this is like got romance.
There is.
There it there has been like, especially in indie spaces.
But within the past year, I have seen because originally it was just kind of like a there

(58:11):
were some very small indies.
And then like Lauren Asher had a series that kind of took off and got a lot of people into
it.
And then a lot recently, one of the books I'm marketing just came out and is an F1 romance.
What's it been?
Berkeley has one.
Yeah, Berkeley has.
Simone Sultani.
Forget what it's called.
Cross the line.
I was amazed at like the physical.

(58:32):
It's called Cross the Line.
That's the Simone Sultani.
The one that I worked on is called Double Apex.
Double Apex.
OK, I'm going to check some out because I'm interested now.
And I just like I've been really fascinated by like the amount of physicality that like
the right drivers have to endure.
Like it's fast, she was telling me about that.
I mean, full on athletes.
What do you mean?
Yeah.
It's like, what do you mean their necks grow?

(58:53):
And I was like, what do you mean?
They're athletes.
They're driving a car.
She's like, you don't understand.
Yeah, it's a very famous, like very popular driver who he actually just got kicked out.
It was a whole thing.
But there's a really famous clip of him.
They ask him, like, is that real sweat on your face?
And there's like an iconic quote from it is your birth man.

(59:14):
He's Australian.
There's a very iconic quote that like everybody in F1 kind of knows where he's like, it's
real sweat.
I'm a high performance athlete, athlete sweat.
And he makes a bunch of weird sounds because he's a weird guy.
But that's like anybody who knows F1, we're like, I'm a high performance athlete, athlete
sweat.
You were saying they drop pounds during the races.

(59:36):
Yeah.
Pounds?
Yeah, they lose pounds of water weight, especially in like they're really hot.
It's crazy.
Well, we got way off track and we are coming towards the end of our time.
So I would like to revisit the KDramaRex because I watched a couple years ago, pre-pandemic.
I got into a few, but I keep meaning to get back into them and I need recommendations.

(59:58):
OK, so what tropes are like your catnip?
I feel like that's a virgin hero.
I'm a marriage of convenience bitch.
That's a good one, too.
OK, let me think.
OK.
So I'm going to do like a really classic one that will really classic in that it's not
that it's still not that old, but it was the drama that got me into it.

(01:00:22):
So loosely marriage of convenience, but it's very chase.
So this is the other thing is a lot of a lot of Korean dramas, sex is very understated.
Like it is almost like, you know, there's times where like it's like so closed door
that like maybe they like you don't like sometimes it's very alluded to and sometimes not.
So this one I would say is one of the chaser ones.

(01:00:44):
However, it is very, very emotional and really sexy and hot, even though it's very chase.
So it's called Crash Landing on you.
This one's very hard of that.
So I do recommend this for a couple of reasons.
One is it's ridiculous.
So it was the first one ever watched and I had no idea what to expect.
And so I flip it on.
And the premise is essentially that like a makeup heiress through an unfortunate skydiving

(01:01:11):
accident gets sucked into North Korea, right, where she has to get under the protection
of a North Korean soldier where she kind of like so they're they're not fully mirrored,
like but they there's kind of like a quasi like he has to pretend that they're together.
Sure.
So, you know, to explain why I'm already sold.
But how she gets sucked over is there's like a tornado that comes and the tornado has to

(01:01:33):
has like cows in it and stuff like it's very, very silly.
So when I was watching it, I was like, I don't understand, like, it's campy.
That's fine.
I guess this is just gonna be a super, super campy show, whatever.
It's actually a deeply emotional show.
That's really good.
The humor is very broad.
But like, there's depth, there's real depth.
And not only is there like an element of the marriage of convenience, like it's a very

(01:01:54):
like it's like a nod to it.
But you've got a very real forbidden love, because like the geopolitical divide is very
real.
And when they get separated, like there's no like we come back and forth to see each
other.
So the stakes are very high.
You've got a military hero, which is always fun.
He definitely falls really hard, which is really good.

(01:02:15):
He's like a very green flag, very non toxic, very protectory, but kind of just like undone
for the heroine, which is great.
And then she's awesome because she is.
She's basically like a CEO.
So she's like a you know, she's like the boss, and she's very high powered.
And so again, coming to like a very small North Korean town, which like the power goes

(01:02:38):
out at night and things like that, you know, like so it's kind of like a fish out of water
as well.
So I do recommend that as like a good gateway for like a Western audience, you kind of have
to like settle into the silly a little bit.
But I think once that happens, there's just a lot to like and that was that's been so
much that's been a very popular gateway, I think.
So I just think that I've seen a lot of people talk about that one.
And it's on Netflix.

(01:02:58):
So that's also like pretty accessible because like the Netflix dramas are tend to be pretty
accessible.
But the emotion in it is real, like there is like you will get your heart like in it.
So it's good.
And I feel like it hits a lot of the like the classic romance beats.
And it kind of gives you a good overview of a lot of what Korean dramas have to offer
because I think it kind of is like a nice like if you like it, you're going to be like,

(01:03:22):
oh, I like more of like the serious part or the lovey part.
And so you'll kind of know where to adjust from there.
But I think that's a good classic one.
Let's see, I can recommend like, let me just see, I recommend like one or two others that
are just kind of like, let me see.
Because it's kind of hard because I'm trying to think of like if the if your audience is
like if the if you're new to Korean dramas or like both of you like just like what would

(01:03:45):
be.
I mean, I love a campy trying to think of the name of the one that I never finished
it but I got through most of it was like what happened to secretary?
Oh, yeah, that's a very fun one.
What's wrong with Secretary Kim?
Yes.
Yeah, so that was a little sexier than most like they actually do kind of like allude
to getting down a bit.
There's one that is on an app called Vicky.

(01:04:07):
So Vicky is like the most like but you can do a trial of Vicky but Vicky has like buzz
like so much Asian drama Netflix just has like a pretty small amount.
So I always will say just like take a Vicky membership out and kind of go for it.
So I'm going to give you two recommendations and they're both on Vicky.
I'm going to give you three.
And then I'll give you like quick pitches for each one.
So the first one is ridiculous.

(01:04:31):
And it's beautiful.
And it's called I am not a robot.
And the premise is the hero has an allergy to human touch.
If he touches people, he will face like almost death like he breaks out in such an allergic
reaction.
And so he ends up having a robot that he designs to like be his companion in his home.

(01:04:54):
But the robot like the like the team that's creating it like spills a drink like something
happens.
And so the person that they're basing the robot prototype on is like a was the was one
of the scientists ex-girlfriends.
So he or her to essentially because she's broken like down in her luck.
She has to pretend to be a robot and live in this house of this guy who can't handle

(01:05:15):
human touch.
This is a need.
And so like he'll have to be like and so she comes up with things to like how to try to
be like a human in this house.
She has to be a robot.
So she'll be like I have a friend mode.
If you put me on a friend mode, I can like stop being so robotic and like become a friend.
And so he'll like come in in the room and be like going to friend mode.
She can be like, okay, I can just like be myself.
And then like sometimes when he's like being mad, he'll be like go back and she'll have

(01:05:37):
to like pretend to be a robot or whatever.
I see why there's a great intersection.
Yeah.
So this is a very good like there's a lot of good in that one.
So I really love it.
It's really good.
Another one that I think can be very fun to watch is called Healer.
This has a virgin hero because you said you wanted a virgin hero.
Oh, yes.

(01:05:58):
Beautiful virgin hero.
I love a beautiful virgin.
He also is kind of got that ninja vibe of like so he is beautiful, beautiful virgin
ninja hero with a lot of parkour.
Sure.
So he is like he's what's called a delivery man.
And so essentially he has to do kind of like ninja type activities got like an earpiece.

(01:06:19):
There's like a woman back in like a room who like tell him what his missions are to do
and stuff.
And so as he's out on the streets at night, he has this very lonely life.
He like lives in a room by himself.
He like sees no one.
He touches no one.
He ends up falling in love for this like delightful bubbly, you know, kind of like that like polar
opposite to him girl.
And he becomes like obsessed with her to the point.

(01:06:40):
And I mean, again, in real life, you would not want this.
But in romance, it's like fun and hot.
He will like hide up in her ceiling again, kind of like working style.
I kind of like hiding in like weird spots.
So he's like always watching her.
And then he gets a job because she doesn't know what he looks like.
He gets a job as her intern at a company.
So he's working with her every day as like the intern with like the lanyard and everything.

(01:07:04):
But at night, he's like she's falling for this like mysterious delivery boy who will
like meet her and like she'll have to like pull her hat down.
He'll like kiss her with her eyes covered and stuff.
So he's like in both parts of her life.
And it's like that's recent made arrows book we read, Caroline, where he was the pirate.
He's the pirate who kidnapped her and her bodyguard.
Captain Doom, Captain Doom.

(01:07:26):
So that's called Healer.
I really recommend that.
And then the last one that's on Vicky, that's kind of again like this is an OG.
This came out like 2016.
So if you were watching a little bit before pandemic, this might have crossed your path.
It's called Goblin or the technical name is Guardian, the Great and Lonely God.
And this is kind of like one of those like par, like it's a paranormalish fantasy-ish

(01:07:47):
thing.
So we're gonna start in the past and then we're gonna move into the present.
And so we have a soldier who like was very noble, but threw backstabbing, was like killed
by the king.
And because he was so noble, he was like given a chance to come back as a goblin.
So in in Korean mythology, these are not goblins as we would know them.

(01:08:08):
That's good.
That's good.
But they're kind of just these like mythical beings that like can grant wishes, they can
do things.
And so he's got a sword in him and he can never find eternal peace until he meets the
goblin's bride who will be able to see the sword and remove the sword from.
So fast forward to modern times and there's like, you know, he meets the goblin's bride.
But then what happens when you fall in love and you're finally able to like die and be

(01:08:31):
at peace, but the only person that can send you to peace is the person you're in love
with.
So there's a lot of that.
And then there's a secondary couple who's a grim reaper.
Oh, like the second chance of love through like reincarnated past lives with like, you
know, maybe somebody that he had known in his past.
And so there's a lot of like, you know, spirit world intersecting with kind of like modern
world stuff.

(01:08:51):
This is going to become a new obsession, I fear.
Amazing.
But it's what makes me get excited thinking, OK, these are all fun ideas.
Like let's do more.
Like, and I mean, these books exist like you can't write like this, too.
But I always want to give like energy and props to when I'm like, yeah, let's like have

(01:09:11):
have more of these kind of things.
It's they're fun.
And what's really nice in dramas, too, which will be like, and then I'll shut up.
No, please.
They tend to be there are seasons for some of them, but generally you're getting a one
and done.
I love that.
I can't admit I'm a rake.
And then you get like, well, no.

(01:09:32):
And then like, what's nice is you don't get like the breakup to breakup drama.
Like you get this story, you get your happy ending, and then you're at the end.
And so that's why it's like a book kind of because you hit all your beats and then you're
done.
And at the end, they're not like and now we need to like break up to make this be like
a nine series, you know, or nine seasons.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(01:09:52):
Oh, my God.
That's I'm still stuck on the robot.
You got me with the goblin.
I'm in my paranormal era right now.
I relate to the Halloween.
I'm really deeply in the paranormal.
So I would what I really love is reach out to me after you watch these.
I would love to have you on like you can come like whatever.

(01:10:13):
But I really want to talk about these because I think it would be really fascinating, especially
since you're avid romance readers, like see how they feel like see how the beats feel
and like watch it and just kind of like think about like how they're structuring it because
I also truly do not understand why Western shows are not doing similar to what they get
like what these are.
Oh, yeah.
It's bizarre.

(01:10:33):
I want to understand.
I'm going to yap about this for a second because I'm deeply obsessed with it is the rivals
Hulu TV show that we talked about with Aiden Turner.
It is based on it's not really a romance.
I mean, it's it is, but it's not.
It's like a very long Jilly Cooper novel.
So it's like a romance, but it's also lots of different characters and it's very messy.

(01:10:55):
And I haven't read that, but I watched the show and there's like an age gap romance that's
kind of the there are lots of different storylines, but it's kind of like the main slow burn romance.
And it's like a 20 year old and this like older divorced MP there in England who is
like kind of at odds with her father and then they become friends.

(01:11:17):
But he's been warned off this 20 year old and he's like very angsty and alone and very
terrible to women always sleeping with other people's wives.
But then he's like sad and alone in his big house with his many dogs.
And it hits every like rake and wallflower beat like perfectly to the point where I literally
texted another historical romance reader friend of mine to be like they're like Evie and Sebastian.

(01:11:41):
Like it's so you get the like she reads him for filth and he's stricken by it.
He does like secret good deeds that she's never supposed to find out about just because
he knows that she would want him to like.
Literally there's like and then he goes and like sleeps with other women, but like can't
stop thinking about her.

(01:12:02):
It's so it hits every single beat.
How many episodes is it?
I've seen it, but I haven't.
It's eight episodes.
Everyone is fucking everyone except for their spouses.
It's very 80s.
There's chest hair everywhere.
I am eating it up.
He said as a mustache.
Aiden Turner has a fabulous mustache.

(01:12:23):
David Tennant.
This is how I'm pitching.
I saw a tweet where somebody said David Tennant's character is a cunt and is also serving cunt
and that is the main guy.
He's kind of a villain.
Oh good.
He's kind of sleazy.
That fits.
So it does.
It has like a cliffhanger.
Like it doesn't wrap up in one season, although I'm probably going to go read the book to

(01:12:46):
see what happens.
But I like it.
Is it just one book or is it like a series?
It's part of a series, but I think this show is only the one book because the series is
like 10 books long and it's crazy and they all follow different characters.
But I really feel like if like romance readers who want something fucking crazy and like
really messy relationships or everybody's like cheating on each other.

(01:13:08):
Like the show hits all the beats.
Okay.
I'm in.
You've you sold me.
I mean you said me through like some very weird things which I didn't know it would
sell me, but like the acts of service that no one's meant to know about.
Oh yeah.
I guess when I'm in my golden retriever, I was like, ooh.
But then I do love like having sex with other people.

(01:13:29):
This is the other thing is like with romance, especially traditional romance, my call is
like more messy where you're doing stuff like that, like that toxic.
Like I love you so much.
I have to just like fuck all these other people.
Right.
The least the least eclatest guy, Derek Craven.
Yeah, who goes in may or may not have slept with the prostitute and called her her name.

(01:13:51):
Yeah.
Easy.
Yep.
That's what I want, especially because this one commit.
He doesn't just like try to sleep with other women and he can't do it.
He's fully having an affair.
He like seduces somebody from the rival TV company over to his like he's actively fucking
her and then he's like, she's not.
No, but he eats it up and then you get to the end and he's like, oh, but she's not you.

(01:14:13):
And you're like, oh, my God, it's not her.
He can never.
I love it.
Yeah.
She's like Campbell Black.
You see a lot of.
His name in this show.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know the accuracy.
I see a lot of.
But the opening scene of the show is a close up of that man's ass as he's as he's having

(01:14:36):
sex with a woman in an airplane bathroom.
So you really start off with a bang and it just gets wilder from there.
Literally.
OK, I'm sold.
Excellent.
That wasn't the point of this.
I'm like, this is about me now.
Good.
We're selling everyone and everything.
Yeah.
I mean, people are listening because they're like, tell me what's going to be fun.

(01:14:59):
This is true.
Puck and protest.
Oh, my God.
You're combining.
Pride and protest, Puck and prejudice.
Both of those are great.
Very different.
That could be a new one.
Oh, my God.
Be like a one.
Every time I've got a new one.
Oh, my God.
No, there was one I can't.
I was actually pit like it was so good because somebody like there was another mean comment,

(01:15:21):
but it was truly good.
And I'm pissed.
Like I wish I should find them and be like, can I just have it?
Because it's so good because somebody said, what's next?
The selfie of Dorian Gray.
Are you kidding me?
No, that would kind of say do it.
Well, I feel like I feel bad just taking it.
But like I was like, I should go back and find them and be like, can I do it?

(01:15:44):
Can I write this?
Can I?
Because that's so good.
I feel like they can't have invented it.
Surely someone else has had the same thought.
This is what I thought.
They took a shower that day.
Yeah, I don't know.
I just felt like that when I was like, I genuinely like I would know in my heart.
I didn't come up with that.
But I was like, I could write to this person who was hating on me and be like, look, I

(01:16:07):
wrote this book.
Hey, I wrote this book.
Awkward combo.
This was very funny and I really would like to try because it's a good.
I would pick it up in one second.
That's very funny.
I would.
I was like, you just gave me like the best high concept.
I was like, damn, I was a kid because I was like, damn it, you're like mocking, but it's
good.

(01:16:28):
Again, they've got the one star review that succeeds in getting me to read the book.
Oh, I would read that.
This help me.
Yeah, if that person ever hear that person reach out and let me do it, please.
Yeah, email the podcast.
We'll put you in contact person.

(01:16:49):
Literature still might just be like death rattling.
It's not quite dead.
Let me.
That'll be the final nail.
Yeah.
The bookshelves just all fall down at that point.
They just burst into flames.
They're like, what happened?
By the end of this podcast, literature will truly beat dead.

(01:17:11):
Yeah, please just bill it at this.
We are talking to the author who destroyed the English language.
All literature dead because a hockey player traveled back in time.
That did it.
The bar was low.
He stuffed his amazing ass into a pair of bridges and the world was never the same,
which is true.

(01:17:31):
I mean, this wasn't even like, we had the Minotaur milking.
That didn't ruin literature.
Do you remember that part?
Nope.
It's something about Jane Austen.
People get really weird about Jane Austen.
We need to do, yeah.
I could just start to do Jane Austen bad fiction ideas and then I would really have people
mad at me.
Listen, there are already so many, all of the weird movie retell.

(01:17:55):
I watched one called Sense and Sensibility, like perfume.
Yes, hallmark.
Was that like a hallmark one?
I have no idea.
It wasn't good, but I had a great time.
I think I've seen that.
Yeah, I've seen a lot of the hallmark ones.
Yeah, the zombie ones.
Oh, I love the zombie one.
I ate it up.
I loved Austin land.
Yes.
Great.
I love that movie.
I'm a big bride and prejudice fan.

(01:18:16):
The like Bollywood one.
Yes, it's a great one.
And then there's, I don't want to butcher it, but it's like, is it pride in Pittsburgh?
It's the Pittsburgh, it's like a sapphic one where it's like, I haven't seen this.
Let me just look it up really fast because I want to get a shout out.
It looked really cute.
I'm intrigued.
It's called Pride, Prejudice and Pittsburgh.

(01:18:39):
And it's a, I think I'm don't have a, yeah, it's definitely sapphic and it is, it looks
really cute.
It may be, I don't want to say it's YA, I'm not 100%.
I think the first genre it's listing is YA.
Okay.
Yeah.
I love a YA moment.
Yeah.

(01:18:59):
I think a lot of things can happen.
Like it's a little bit more free.
I feel like.
Intriguing.
So we'll see though.
I think that my two cents right now is I think traditional publishing.
I mean, Indie has always been really inventive.
I mean, like one of the people I do my podcast with, she's been writing Alien Romance.

(01:19:21):
And let me tell you, Alien Romance and Monster Romance goes out there.
Oh yeah.
And it's fun.
It's super fun.
But I do think I, my prediction is that we're going to see more and more chances getting
taken with traditional.
I just think it's, I just personally think that like, that is how, I think now that there's
such a focus on trade too, they're just trying to get books that get people talking.

(01:19:43):
But I think the challenges, like you want people talking and you want the book to be
good.
You want both things.
It's an and, and.
Yes.
And I would just love more like historical, like things like you've done.
I just love that.
There's one I'm looking on.
I'm like, Libra FM has an influencer program and it's called A Vile Season.
He's like a Regency Vampire.
Oh, that's on my list.

(01:20:04):
Yeah.
Like, please?
I need it?
Yes.
So I downloaded that one real quick.
I had no clue it was, I have never heard anything about it, but I saw Regency Vampire and I
was.
That one's YA too.
Is it?
Yeah.
Well, as you start watching some Korean dramas, I think it'll give you, because I mean, as
I see Kdramas, I'm like, these would be really fun to move.

(01:20:27):
One thing Kdramas has is like, cause time travel again, like is very common in Kdrama.
Like there's a lot of time travel.
Another thing that's really common that I feel like we are not seeing enough of is the
Grim Reaper.
Grim Reapers are hot.
And like that idea of like just, and they often put them in kind of like a corporate
type of setting.
Like, you know, like the underworld is like a hairy busy place.

(01:20:47):
Have you read, have you read the Grim Reaper's Lawyer?
No.
I just read it.
It's by, I want to say, Maya, Maya Monique, I think is her name.
I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right.
Yeah.
It's called, it's called the Grim Reaper's Lawyer.
And she, she's a lawyer who dies and she's going to be sent to, she goes to like the

(01:21:10):
sorting office and he basically is like, either you can go to hell or you can represent me
in this court case because they've just established courts for the first time.
And he's been like accused of taking the, or like he's taken the wrong soul and he thinks
it wasn't his fault, but he's going to court for it.
So she's like forced into being this Grim Reaper's Lawyer.
I love that kind of like, you know, like, like a little bit of like realism in your

(01:21:33):
like kind of like paranormal-ish fantasy.
And I think that, so I see a lot of that also in K-drama and I think it's really fun and
I want to see, like, I'm always looking for more of that too.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
This looks amazing.
I feel like there are, there's a lot of like, especially like non-Western like TV shows

(01:21:53):
and things that are taking, they're just so much more fun than ours.
And I'm like, what are we?
Yeah.
Like, can't believe we made it.
Yeah, well Chinese dramas too.
Chinese dramas go like all in on like so much fun for you to see.
Those I feel like you have to commit to.
I had a friend who was really into those, but there are like hundreds of episodes.
Well, I will.
Okay.
My last rec and then I will be done with my recs and we can, you can start to wrap up

(01:22:14):
is there's a Chinese drama that took my, it took all of like, everyone loved it.
That like is in like kind of like my like watching world and it's called Love Between
Fairy and Devil.
Oh, I've heard of this.
It's longish.
It's like 50 episodes, but they're not that long.
So some daunting, but they're not crazy long.
But the whole thing is again, like you've got like, you know, the trope of like the

(01:22:37):
ingenue kind of like fairy that's so happy blah, blah, blah.
But then there's the dark evil, like, you know, for so many reasons, twisted demon,
but they first connect with the body swap.
So like he's in her body and she's in his body.
And that becomes really funny because you have him like, he's like the sulky dark lord

(01:22:58):
of like death and doom.
And now like the beautiful happy fairies like in his body.
And then he's like in her body.
And then like they combat like they, you know, they disentangle at some point, obviously
it's not the whole, the whole show is not the body, but that's like their meat.
Their meat cute is essentially their bodies crossover.
Not the freaky Friday meat cute.
And thinking of the scene in the Scooby Doo movie, I can see each other naked.

(01:23:23):
Yes.
And so it's more and more, but I just love, I love a tortured hero.
And this, this is like tortured hero done so perfectly well.
His like name that he goes by is moon supreme.
It's giving captain doom.
Yeah.
And he's beautiful.
The doctor is absolutely gorgeous.
So anyway, I do really recommend that as like, it's got really big emotion and it like, I

(01:23:47):
think I bit like it's a C drama.
Like it's many episodes.
I think I watched the whole thing in four days.
Like I just stopped my life.
I was like, I think I called him sick to work.
Like I was, I have to only finish this.
Like I am great.
That's so fair.
I, well, first of all, I think we need more body swap romances.
Yeah.
I was just thinking that where are they?

(01:24:10):
Second of all, I always just think about like, I was a theater major, so I did a lot of acting
and I always think about like how much fun those actors must've had to like play each
other and then back like, oh, and then like, imagine a sex scene where you're in each other's
bodies.
That's crazy.
Other that is crazy.
Having sex with your own body.

(01:24:30):
You know who could write it?
You know who could write it?
Well, you, but also Laura Kinsale.
Yeah, Laura Kinsale definitely should write it.
So I stopped being active on writer Twitter a very long time ago, like in 2017.
I still have my account, but she, I finally got her to follow me on Twitter and that was

(01:24:51):
like one of the proudest moments of my life.
Yeah, I don't doubt it.
Laura Kinsale followed me.
You've won.
Yes.
That was like, yeah, a crowning moment.
Laura, give us a body swap romance.
It's got to exist, right?
I don't think I've ever read one.
No.
Somebody in the Indie space has written it, I'm sure.

(01:25:14):
Yeah, and I think most of the body swap movies I've seen are like, there's like Wish Upon
a Star, but those were like two sisters.
So like there are like romances that happen while the others are like, swap the bodies,
you know, like Freaky Friday and stuff, but like.
Well, added to my, I am still trying to pitch the third book in my series.
I will consider if I can figure out a way to body swap, because I already had an idea.

(01:25:37):
I had an idea that I thought would be fun because I'm also my Y2.
I really want to do a Y2s.
I haven't done a Y2s.
But I don't know.
This is fun too.
So I'm going to add it on my list.
Body swap.
They could all swap bodies.
Y2s bodies.
Y2s bodies.
Y2s.
Oh my God.
They're all in each other's bodies and also in each other's bodies.

(01:25:59):
Yeah.
The epitome of Y2.
This is like last time I had a conversation like this, Puck and Prejudice.
I do.
I mean, the whole like, sense and slapstick or slap shots and everything will be.
I'm noticing a trend that every time Hannah and I have authors on, we end up trying to

(01:26:20):
convince them to write whatever book we want them to write.
Because when we had Eloise James on, she was like, I'm interested in maybe doing like a
gothic.
And I was like, give it to me now.
We're like, please write it right now.
Would you have any interest?
We were like, yeah.
Yeah.
I've been really, really rooting for a jury duty romance.
Like a really good jury duty.
There was just a hockey player who was sentenced to jury duty.

(01:26:41):
So he's like, they're like debating if he can like miss games and stuff.
And I'm like, this would be a great start.
Like I just really want a jury duty.
I read a really terrifying one.
Don't recommend.
So I need a good one.
It was horrifying.
I was changed.
I need a different one.
There aren't a lot.
No, there's not a lot.
No, that's my need.

(01:27:03):
Jury duty, body swap, life cues, just like.
All of it.
It's all coming together.
I'm seeing the vision.
They're all having to be each other while on jury duty together and not give away that
they're in each other's bodies.
Well, while in each other's body.

(01:27:23):
Right.
Right.
Exactly.
Or what if they like one of them has to switch by to the lawyer?
I don't know.
Prosecutor?
Who knows?
Courtroom, antics.
There's just something that's happened to this court.
Whoever's on trial has some sort of magical power that is like being.
And how about it's in hell?
The Grim Reaper's lawyer.

(01:27:43):
I think that's the best part.
Because I mean, if it's going to be a jury, it's got to be somewhere like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't want to be in hell.
I think maybe genius book proposal on our hands.
I say we slap this bad boy down on paper, start querying immediately.
I'm seeing like five, six figure deals in our future.

(01:28:05):
A great deal.
I mean, it's got to be.
This needs to be the next show everyone's watching too.
Like I got to check it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's easier.
So I feel like we're perfect.
Oh God.
I think that's the perfect note to wrap us up on.
I think so too.
You gave me a lot to think about.

(01:28:28):
Horrifying coming from us.
That's never what you want to hear.
The problem is I just like, no, I'm like, give me a challenge and I will be like, what
can I do?
Literature is already dead.
We might as well be in hell in each other's bodies.
And you know what?
There's nothing more that I love than a novella.
I love novellas.
So like if you ever feel like you just need to get something out there, that's a lot of

(01:28:51):
novellas.
I love novellas.
Or several.
I just am so much more likely to read novellas.
I don't know.
I am.
So you're somebody like you're kind of a unicorn for me.
I do not know that many novella readers.
I love it.
I've been reading, like I've read a lot of like Halloween novellas.
Like I just I am one in a reading slump right now.
So that's it's just easier to like sample authors that way.

(01:29:12):
But my attention span is just very like if I don't have an audiobook, like indie authors,
I much prefer to just read novellas, like sample it and see what's going on.
But I just love like when a good novella hits like it really hits because you kind of bypass
all the annoying parts of like a very long book.
Well can I give you a three book long recommendation to close this out?

(01:29:34):
Yeah, we want it.
You said you're in a reading reading slump.
We're moving into him.
We are.
So you I mean, you both you may know this if you hate it, I'm sorry if you know it.
But do you know the winter night trilogy by Katherine Arden?
No, that is ringing a bell.
It is it is not.
It's got a love story.
It's got a great love story.
It is a very slow burn though.

(01:29:56):
So the love story doesn't get going until book two.
But the audio if you like audio, we both love audio books.
I think this is an amazing audio, especially with winter coming because it's set in medieval
Russia with like a lot of.
Yes.
So the first book is called The Bear and the Nightingale.
Yes, yes, yes.
I had a lot of romance in the first book, but the setup is going to be that you need

(01:30:17):
to know the payoff is coming.
Sure.
Is we have like a young witch coming into her power.
Oh, witches and lead with that.
It's a time when like the spirit world is kind of being like fading because the rise
of like Christianity is like kind of like dominating.
So people aren't like leaving offerings out for like the house spirits and things.
So she is she's part of the old ways.

(01:30:38):
She's like checked into that a lot of patriarchy.
She pushes against that.
And then the long term love affair that's going to happen is going to be with the god
of death slash a frosty.
OK, did you say frosty frost demon?
Oh my God.
I was like, I just saw the Netflix announcement for like the hot frosty.
There's literally a hot frost.
I was like, no, it's not hot.
I'm way on board with frosty man, by the way.

(01:31:00):
I was like, the audio, whoever like the so her writing is she's my favorite writer, Catherine
Erdens.
I will be recommending this to everyone I know.
But just listen to a couple of chapters with the with the narrator because she does like
the Russian really well.
And just with the nights getting long, I listen, I've listened to it to the for I've listened
to the entire series the last two winters and I've had no regrets.

(01:31:21):
So three books.
It's just they're really, really heartfelt.
There's some good magic, really strong female characters.
And then obviously, yeah, we're going to have frosty man sex in a sauna.
Hell, yeah.
That's where you're going to be going.
You could have said just that and I would have.
Yeah.
For I love demons.

(01:31:42):
OK, like I am so so old frost demon.
I like writing your tidbits down.
The other thing I'm going to say is that he's exasperated like so lucky human that's always
getting the trouble she can hide in a time and he's constantly like Jesus, this human
like you're like he's stressed.
Yeah.
Yeah, that'll do it.

(01:32:02):
Could not have sold this better.
OK, so tell me if that reading slump because it's my favorite book series.
Oh, my God.
OK, that's immediate.
That sounds so good.
Libby, here I come.
Wow.
Well, we're leaving this conversation with so many recommendations.
Yes.
And the listeners are leaving with all these recommendations plus one being Pug and Prejudice.

(01:32:26):
Oh, thank you.
Well, this was really fun.
It was so do you have any like things you want to like your podcast name, social stuff
like that?
So the let's see.
So Pug and Prejudice is coming out November 12th.
It'll be coming out after the election.
You might already have this.
This might be out already.
This will be coming out right around release week.

(01:32:49):
OK, great.
So it's out.
Go grab it.
I think it's going to be it should be like Target, Walmart, kind of like a lot of easy
to access Barnes and Noble, your local indie, if it's not there, ask them to stock it.
Yep.
Just because of you'll get the fun of saying, can you please get this book Pug and Prejudice?
And they're going to go what?
And be like, no, really, I just want that book.
Unless they're a really fun bookseller, in which case they're going to be like, oh, my

(01:33:12):
gosh, yes.
Yes.
Of course.
Let's see my podcast.
If anyone wants to ever pop over there, and I would love to have both of you there at
some point.
It's called Afternoon Delight.
So like instead of afternoon, it's after noon, which is like upon on the Korean word noon,
which is like older sister.
So Afternoon Delight, the premise is three romance writers who like examine K dramas

(01:33:37):
through a writer's lens.
So we have hundreds of episodes at this point because we do it every Wednesday.
Let's see my only place I'm really active on social media is Instagram.
And so that is at Leah, at Leah Riley, author, I think.
Let me check.
It's either Leah Riley, author or Leah Riley writes, I forget.

(01:34:00):
Author.
I was gonna say not to be a creep, but I have it pulled up.
It is author.
So that's probably the only social that I'm like super active on.
I'm on there every day.
Besides that, I really, you know, you can say mean things about me on Twitter, because
the only thing I'm doing on Twitter is hanging out on BTS Twitter.
So you can like comment me on hockey Twitter and like writer Twitter, because I'm only

(01:34:21):
going to be over on BTS Twitter.
Perfect.
Which is also a scary place to be, frankly, because, you know, anywhere on Twitter, you
get into some deep trenches.
Yes.
But thank you very, very much for having me.
This was really fun.
Well, thank you for coming on and yapping for 40 minutes, more than we meant to.

(01:34:45):
I am a big talker and I will apologize.
No, no.
Most of our episodes end up being closer to two hours than one.
So it's it's bad.
True.
But this was a great time.
I'm assuming we're going to be checking out a lot of these recommendations.
Also the Laura Kinzel.
Was it the shadow in the star?

(01:35:07):
I'm pretty sure it's the shadow in the star.
I think you're right.
I think I have that.
I have a copy of it, if that's not correct.
It has like a horse on the front, I think.
I think Fabio might have even been on the cover of one of them.
Oh, yes, I do have this one with the Fabio.
Yeah.
Yep.
And there's a step back, it looks like.
Yeah.
Just.
Yeah.
Cool.

(01:35:28):
Well, if we do an episode on that, we would love to have you.
We're just going to be trading.
Yeah, literally.
Yes, yes, yes.
We did a whole old school school last year when we were very good at recording.
So we read a lot of like classics and all of that.
And that was a very fun time.
Yeah.
So, yeah, at some point, just dabble back into that.
That one, this is not my favorite Laura Kinzel, but that sex scene just like lives in my favorite

(01:35:52):
Laura Kinzel.
That's so hard.
I am going to say, you know what?
I like Shadowheart.
Is that the one you read, Carolyn?
Yeah, that's the second medieval, right?
It's the pirate one where she's a femdom, kind of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think she's kind of a kind of celibate or something.

(01:36:13):
Since she's like scratching him a lot.
I really like that.
Yeah.
No, Hannah, you're thinking of the other.
The first.
You're thinking of For My Lady's Heart.
Yeah.
OK.
OK.
This one is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I read this one first, actually.
I will say Flowers from the Storm is my favorite.
And then there's what's the one?
There's one that where she's got the hedgehog.
Oh, my God.
Midsummer.

(01:36:34):
Midsummer moon.
Yes.
I also I'm obsessed with hedgehogs.
And I did specifically read that well on my quest to read romances with hedgehogs in them.
She sure read Spanger.
That one's also crazy.
Yes.
That one is very crazy.
She's great.
She just did it.
And everyone let her.
I was like, hey, we're like two chapters in and he's accidentally been dosed with an aphrodisiac.

(01:36:57):
She's like a hermit.
Like there's a flying machine.
That's a crazy book.
Yeah, because she invents stuff all the time.
That's like all coming back to me.
And she gets amnesia at one at one.
I love amnesia, too.
And he's like, yeah, we were engaged to be married.
Like, oh, my God.
Crazy behavior.
Yeah.
OK, we need to stop before we get back into the lorik and sail of it all.

(01:37:23):
Because I'll talk for another two hours.
Anyway, this has been great.
I can't wait for us to come on your podcast and for you to come back on our Zanyap about
lorik and sail more.
Amazing.
I'm already ready.
And if you're listening, go get your copy of Puck and Prejudice.
Yes, I'm very excited for the audiobook.
I can't wait to reread it that way.
Yeah, I have.

(01:37:44):
It's a single male narrator.
It's Will Dittman.
See if I can spell it right and not say protest.
Have I listened to anything from him before?
Oh, he does Bride by Ali Hazelwood, Caroline.
Oh, I did just read that.
The narrator was really good.
Yes.
Hell yeah.
Yeah, he was my first choice.

(01:38:06):
That was what was fun too.
I got to pick.
There were like nine voices.
And yeah, shout out to Will.
He was my first choice.
And so she got it or he agreed to do it.
Yay.
Oh, so exciting.
Exciting.
Okay.
Well, I don't know.
Do you have a sign up for do we just say goodbye?
We kind of we're really terrible about ending the podcast.

(01:38:28):
We just kind of hope to come to a natural end and then are like, okay, bye.
And then at some point, Hannah has to just cut us off.
Okay, puck it.
We're off.
Puck it.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S03.11: In Our Himbo Era with Lia Riley

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

All Episodes

S03.11: In Our Himbo Era with Lia Riley

Dateline NBC