April 23, 2025 • 75 mins
Orhan Tahir is a Romani lawyer, scholar and journalist, originally from Bulgaria, who has lived in Western Europe for the past 10 years. He is currently engaged as a PhD researcher in Political Science at the Heidelberg University in Germany. Orhan's focus is on the construction of "Gypsies" as an outcast "Pariah people" in European imagination in line with the Orientalist narratives of colonial India, and the impact of this concept on modern perceptions of Roma. He is among the first scholars in Europe to examine the situation of the Roma from the perspective of "caste" - a new approach still unpopular in European academia.
Orhan's LinkedIn
Our Romani crush is the artist and anarchist, Helios Gomez
Some information about enslaved African's language heritage https://wordscr.com/what-language-did-slaves-speak/
https://www.nps.gov/ethnography/aah/aaheritage/sysMeaningA.htm
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Romanistan is hosted by Jezmina Von Thiele and Paulina Stevens
Conceived of by Paulina Stevens
Edited by Viktor Pachas
With Music by Viktor Pachas
And Artwork by Elijah Vardo
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jezmina (00:00):
Hey, romanistan listeners, we just wanted to put
a note on the start of thisepisode that we are so concerned
about America's fascism, and weknow you are too.
It is not possible for oneperson to solve all the world's
or country's problems, but weall have our gifts and we all
(00:22):
have our limitations, and we allhave ways that we can show up
to resist fascism.
And all that matters is thatyou show up in some way, whether
you got to lay low or whetheryou have an opportunity to be
loud, it's all about your safety, but it's also about just doing
(00:42):
the work, whatever that is thatyou can do.
So we are in resistance withyou against this fascist regime,
against fascism all over theworld, and we continue to fight
in all the ways we can.
So thank you for being here.
Paulina (01:07):
Welcome to Romanistan.
We're your friendlyneighborhood gypsies.
I'm Paulina and I'm Jez.
Wait, my cat.
I have to get him out of here.
He just got in here and he'smaking so much noise.
Jezmina (01:21):
Paulina has an orange cat too.
Paulina (01:29):
Oh great, oh my, my god , he's very lively, okay, and so
we are here today with orhantahir and we are so excited to
introduce him.
Orhan tahir is a romani lawyer,scholar, scholar and journalist
originally from Bulgaria, whohas lived in Western Europe for
(01:50):
the past 10 years.
He is currently engaged as aPhD researcher in political
science at the HeidelbergUniversity in Germany.
Orhan's focus is on theconstruction of gypsies as an
outcast pariah people inEuropean imagination, in line
with the orientalist narrativesof colonial India and the impact
(02:14):
of this concept on modernperceptions of Roma.
He is among the first scholarsin Europe to examine the
situation of Roma from theperspective of caste, a new
approach still unpopular inEuropean academia.
Welcome.
Orhan Tahir (02:34):
Thank you for having me.
Jezmina (02:36):
We're so happy to have you, and so we always start with
our intro question Where's yourfamily from?
What's your visa?
Orhan Tahir (02:48):
question where's your family from?
What's your visa?
Yes, I'm originally fromBulgaria.
It's a small country insoutheastern Europe.
I'm from a small town near theBlack Sea coast.
It's called Provadia, and myfamily comes from the community
of Muslim Roma, or so-calledTurkish Roma, where
(03:15):
traditionally Romani language isspoken, but also Turkish
language is widely spoken, sothe new generations speak mostly
Turkish, unfortunately.
So this is my community, infact.
Paulina (03:31):
We always ask this question and we get a lot of
different answers depending onhow you define the word.
But do you consider yourself arebel?
Orhan Tahir (03:41):
I have often been labeled by others as a rebel,
but frankly, I don't seeanything rebellious about
speaking my mind openly andbeing myself, so I don't
consider myself a rebel.
Jezmina (04:02):
I like the idea that it should just be normal to speak
your mind and be honest aboutyour feelings, Of course yes.
We were wondering what was yourfirst ever job and what
inspired you to pursue thiscareer path.
You have such an interesting,dynamic career.
Orhan Tahir (04:19):
When I was a university student, my first
real job was a postman.
When I was a university student, my first real job was a
postman.
Later I started working in ahuman rights NGO and this is how
my career began.
Actually, I spent the last 20years mostly in the human rights
(04:43):
sector, in the NGO sectors, butalso I have experience in the
private sector.
I used to work for a bank forsome time, for private companies
, as a lawyer, but mainly, myprofile mainly is a human rights
(05:03):
lawyer.
This is what I have been doing.
I have done for most of my life,actually, and only recently I
decided to go to academia simplybecause I couldn't find answers
(05:26):
of many questions while workingas a human rights lawyer.
For example, I couldn't findsatisfactory answers to the
question of why Roma, after somany centuries, continue to be
treated like second-handcitizens in Europe to be treated
like second-hand citizens inEurope, and that's why I decided
(05:46):
to start an academic career.
I enrolled at the University ofHeidelberg and decided to
explore these questions myself,to look for answers, to search
for answers myself instead ofreading and accepting the
(06:10):
answers already provided byothers.
So this is part of my careerdevelopment, of my path of
evolution, of spiritualphilosophical evolution, and
this is how I ended up in theacademia, in fact, because I'm
(06:31):
still looking, after so manyyears, for the answers of these
questions.
Jezmina (06:35):
They're deep questions and it must be gratifying, after
so long of working in differentsectors where you are dealing
with human rights, to look forsome answers for yourself.
Orhan Tahir (06:48):
Yes, certainly, absolutely.
Paulina (07:01):
Can you tell us a little more about why you study
Roma human rights crisis inEurope from the perspective of
caste?
Orhan Tahir (07:31):
why I'm interested in the caste system as an
explanation for the currentsituation of Roma.
Since colonial times, actuallysince the 17th century, romani
people have been described bysome authors as pariah people.
(07:51):
Pariah, similarly to the pariahpeople, or untouchables or
Chandala they have differentnames are the people who are
outside the Indian caste system.
(08:12):
They were positioned outsidethe caste system.
This is the outcast people, infact, and some European
travelers, scholars,missionaries are going to India
compared Roma to these outcastpeople in India and they said
(08:37):
well, we also have pariahoutcast people in Europe.
These are the gypsies.
They are the same people andafter so many centuries they
haven't changed.
They remain the same.
They are dark-skinned, they arestill Indians here in Europe,
they are aliens, they areoutsiders.
(08:58):
And this was the explanation.
And there were a long line ofscholars writing reinforcing
this notion, this idea, inEuropean intellectual circles,
in European academia.
I think that this idea thatRoma people are not simply
(09:38):
different ethnic group butactually outcast people,
completely different, stillpersistent.
It's still widely accepted,reinforced, and I think that's
(10:01):
why it's important to study thisissue in detail, to see how
this concept of pariah has beentransferred from, appropriated,
from India to Europe and whyRoma people are still perceived
(10:23):
as pariah people.
There are even some scholarswho use this concept even today,
and in the beginning of the20th century it was Max Weber
who has popularized this conceptin sociology and also in other
(10:43):
fields of science, in otherscientific fields.
Basically, he said that theJews were pariah people in the
medieval times, in medievaltimes, and gypsies are pariahs
still pariahs in modern times.
So what happened?
Why the Jewish people are nomore pariahs but gypsies are
(11:04):
still pariahs?
What happened?
What are the explanations, thehistorical reasons, what is the
logic behind this?
This is what I'm interested inand this is some something that
is not very popular in Europe,in European academia.
(11:25):
Basically, roma are not seen inthis light.
In Roman studies, in science,discrimination against Roma is
basically not seen in thiscontext of caste relations.
(11:47):
But if Roma people are stillpariah, as Max Weber, pariah
people as Max Weber and someother scores claim, then who
decides that they are pariah?
Who makes them pariah?
Who outcasts them?
(12:07):
Because if you have outcastpeople, it means you have caste
people, you have castestructures, caste structure,
caste ideology that excludesthese people and positions them
outside the caste system.
Then this, actually, myresearch, is not so much about
(12:28):
Roma people, but about Europe asa system which obviously,
obviously shares some elementsfrom the Indian caste system,
because there is not, for me, atleast for me, there is no other
explanation.
How is it possible thatimmigrants who recently came
(12:49):
from Africa and Asia, likesecond and third generation of
immigrants, can be much betterintegrated in European societies
than the Roma people who havebeen in this continent for
centuries?
It's not just about ethnicity,it's not just about different
ethnic groups or something likethis, but this is something much
(13:13):
more complex.
It's much more complex becausethe Gypsies, roma people, are
still considered as people fromdifferent, completely different
dimension.
It's something going beyondskin color, beyond ethnic
identity, beyond anything likethis, because even today, you
(13:36):
have Roma people who are white,blue, with blue eyes, blonde
hair, and they experienceabsolutely the same levels of
discrimination as the darkskinned Roma people.
At the moment that the peoplearound them realize that they
are gypsies, at the moment thattheir true identity comes up,
(13:58):
becomes clear, they experienceabsolutely the same levels of
discrimination, which means thatit's not simply, it's not so
simple, it's not like a color,it's not just racism, and that's
why it's different from, let'ssay, racism against African
Americans in the United States.
(14:19):
It's much more.
It's much more like, maybe,antisemitism.
There are more similaritieswith antisemitism.
So that's why I'm interested inthis issue and my research is
(14:43):
about construction of Romapeople, the image of Roma as
pariah people, outcast people,in Europe and the impact of this
concept on modern perceptionsabout Roma and the functioning
of European political socialsystem, because I consider it a
(15:04):
system.
Despite of the fact that thereare different countries,
different nations on the oldcontinent, practically
everywhere, roma are treated ina very similar way as outcasts,
as pariahs, as people who don'tbelong here, people who, even
(15:24):
after so many centuries, areethnically, racially, socially,
in every possible way differentfrom the majority.
In the very similar way, justlike the outcast people in India
, like Dalit people in India,like Dalit people in India.
(15:51):
So similarities between Indiaand Europe.
How these ideas about castesystem, about superior and
inferior races, castes, howthese ideas were appropriated in
Europe in the colonial timesand they are still alive in
Europe.
They are still here, they arestill present.
Paulina (16:17):
This is what I wanted, to just add this quickly in for
the listeners that may not, maynot know, but I wanted to share
(16:44):
with you.
So for people that are alsoinside the community or people
that are, you know, like mixedor assimilated they're not
really, I guess, maybe here inhere.
I know, here in the us it'slike that.
I'm not exactly sure how it isin europe, but if you don't
follow like the rules to kind ofbe in the community, like you
(17:08):
know, I had an arranged marriageand stuff like that and I
decided that I wanted toseparate from the community,
you're also outcasted, even fromyour own community.
So like a little joke that wehave is like here at Romanistan
we're like the outcasts of theoutcasts.
So it's funny that you say that.
(17:32):
I also did have one littlefollow-up kind of question for
you.
The caste system still exists inthe culture, just the way that
you're explaining it.
I know that in my community mymuchwaya side of the family
would always say like we're thebest of the roma, like we're the
most respectable, like that'swhy, like also that's why we had
(17:53):
so many rules to like our headcoverings and our long skirts
and not showing and serving oneverybody.
And then my other side of thefamily, my galdara side was more
like kind of like okay, yeah,we're gonna do this, we're gonna
do that.
Like they didn't really carethat much and they were like oh,
the Machuaya people thinkthey're the greatest people.
They would joke like oh yeah,the greatest people in the world
(18:15):
Like is that the caste systemwithin the culture as well?
Orhan Tahir (18:28):
According to some scholars, these are remnants of
the caste system.
Of course, some other scholarsdisagree with this idea.
Some believe that this might beinherited from India, these
internal divisions, becausepractically every community in
India, even today, is very muchinternally divided.
They are hierarchies, complexstructures, endogamous groups.
(18:59):
But it's also related tosomething else that after the
arrival in Europe, the Romadispersed everywhere and going
to different geographical places, different countries, different
regions, among other cultures,settling among other cultures,
(19:25):
settling among other cultures.
This also influenced and it'salso contributed to these
internal divisions, becausepeople who live in Hungary are,
more or less, you know theyadapted to Hungarian culture.
Others who went to Spainadapted to Spanish culture, more
(19:48):
or less, and there are alsoregional differences.
This also can be explainedthrough the stratification,
internal stratification,geographical dispersion of Roma.
But I know what you mean infact.
But I will tell you somethingvery curious I have.
(20:17):
I recently I did a DNA test inmy heritage and what I found out
is that I have relatives amongpeople and some of them are
close relatives among peoplefrom other groups which are very
distant, even groups in Hungary, groups in Spain which are very
(20:40):
distant from me, and normallymy group don't intermarry to
these other groups, especiallywhen there are also these
religious divides Christian,muslim but now you know, after
taking the DNA test, I see thata couple of generations ago
(21:05):
people were intermarrying people.
There were marriages betweenthese different groups.
It was something going beyondthis internal division.
So I tend to believe that theinternal division of Roma is a
recent, I think more recentdevelopment.
(21:25):
More recent development BecauseI'm a Muslim, my community, my
group, is a Muslim Roma.
They are Muslim Roma, but I haverelatives, I have third cousins
, among Lovari people, lovariRoma from Hungary.
I have cousins among Ursari,lingurari people who are
(21:45):
Romanian speaking.
So how was this possible?
It was possible because, like100 years ago, maybe, these
divisions were not so, or 200years ago the divisions were not
so significant.
And if our grandfathers, yourgrandfathers and my grandfathers
(22:05):
meet, they will find much moresimilarities among themselves,
between themselves, than we findamong them, simply because they
were not so integrated,probably as we are in the
surrounding cultures, because wespeak the language much better,
we have many more non-Romafriends and we are much more
(22:32):
integrated into this non-Romaenvironment in comparison to our
forefathers.
Jezmina (22:51):
That leads really well into our next question, speaking
of divisions and unity.
We both really enjoyed youressay when Are Roma?
Analysis of the IdeologicalCrisis in the Roma Movement we
shared in our book and on thepodcast before that.
We adopted the name Romanistanbecause we love the idea of
Romani people unified all overthe world in a kind of like
intangible nation, and we don'twant to colonize any land, but
(23:14):
we do want Roma to berepresented like any other
nation in the UN and theEuropean Parliament and so on.
So can you share your thoughtson what the Roma nation is or
could be and why the ideologicalcrisis of whether or not to
identify as a unified nation isso contentious among some Roma?
Orhan Tahir (23:34):
Yes.
On the first question are Romaa nation?
I would suggest you to go toany of Central or Eastern
European countries and ask thepeople from the ethnic
majorities in these countriesare roma a different nation, a
different nation from yournation, or are or do roma belong
(23:55):
to your nation?
And I'm sure that the majorityof them?
If you ask the bulgarians,hungarians, czech people, polish
people, they answer themajority of them they will
answer the gypsies are differentfrom us.
Gypsies are not like us.
Gypsies don't belong to ournation.
Gypsies are different nation.
(24:16):
And when the people around youperceive you as a separate
nation, but you insist, you denythis, you reject this and you
keep insist on being somehowaccepted, integrated, blended,
(24:39):
assimilated into this other,this non-Roman nation, then the
problem lies with you.
You have a problem.
It's not a problem of non-Roma.
It's a problem of Roma Becauseafter so many centuries, we have
been able to preserve ourlanguage and identity, our
(25:01):
language, culture and identity,unlike many other tribes, ethnic
groups, communities that cameto Europe but disappeared.
There are hundreds of them.
So, after so many centuries,after more than eight centuries,
if you are still seen ascompletely different from the
(25:27):
others, you have a choice youeither feel ashamed and you beg
being accepted by the non-Romasociety, or you appreciate
yourself and you start lovingyourself and you embrace and
(25:50):
celebrate your culture and youridentity.
So the ideological crisis weare witnessing is because so
many people who are ashamed oftheir identity are taking
(26:11):
leading positions in theorganizations or are trying to
become speakers of the community, or they are hired, they are
endorsed, they are promoted indifferent structures, but these
people don't love themselves.
They don't love themselvesBecause if you love yourself, if
(26:35):
you know your community, if youknow your culture, you will
never say that there is nounified Romani language.
You will never pay so muchattention to the internal
divisions among Roma, becauseyou know that we are all the
same people, regardless of thegeographical, religious, social
(26:57):
and other differences.
We are the same people and ifyou travel, if you visit
different Roma communities, youwill find out the similarities.
You will find out a lot ofsimilarities among them.
Of course there are differences, but there, knowing our culture
(27:35):
, learning our language, this isthe part forward, because
everything else is failing.
All other ideologies, likeother concepts or ideas about
what should happen with Roma,are failing practically.
You have unsuccessful decade ofRoma inclusion in Central and
(27:59):
Eastern Europe.
You have unsuccessful projectsand policies totally failing
regarding the Roma community.
And it's not because people,it's not so much because people
are corrupted or people are bador people are, you know, don't
do their job so well.
It's not because this.
(28:19):
The explanation is very simple.
The explanation is very simplewhen you have two different
nationalities, ethnic groups,ethnic communities and you try
to merge them and you impose theidea that the one ethnicity
should simulate the other, well,and it doesn't work because
(28:42):
they don't want to accept you,then you cannot blame anybody.
You cannot blame anybody.
You cannot blame the majority.
You cannot blame the majority,the people from the ethnic
majority, because they havetheir free will and they also
have a say.
And when they say I don't likeyou, I don't like gypsies, I
don't like to live with gypsies,to work with gypsies, I don't
(29:03):
like to live with gypsies, towork with gypsies, to send my
children to study with gypsies,what you do, this is the will of
the majority and you have ademocracy where the majority
decides.
And if this is the will of themajority, you can either keep
blaming them and calling themracist or you can face the
(29:23):
reality and be realists and say,ok, you don't like us, maybe we
should look for anotheralternative, for another
solution.
We cannot impose on you, wecannot force you to love us, to
like us, to tolerate us, againstyour will.
It's very simple.
It's like in the marriage, youknow, in the marriage where the
(29:47):
husband and the wife cannot livetogether and don't love each
other and it's difficult forthem to.
You know what to do.
You force them to stay togetheror you say, okay, you are free
to follow your path, to separate, and so on.
So these relations,inter-ethnic relations, are very
(30:09):
similar to personal relationsbetween people, you know, in a
marriage or in a relationship.
So that's why I think that Idon't see any problem with the
concept, with the idea that Romaconstitute a separate, a
different nation.
They have always been different, they have always been
(30:33):
perceived as something differentand I don't see any problem in
the failure, the failingintegration, inclusion
strategies.
Simply because you cannot forcethe people to accept you, they
will become even angrier, theywill hate you even more.
This is what we see in Europenow, because a lot of people,
(30:57):
especially in Central andEastern Europe, are very angry
that someone with the idea thatthey must accept the Roma people
.
They must live with the Romapeople against their will.
So, instead of improvement ofthe relations between Roma and
(31:17):
non-Roma, the result of thisforced integration let's say
imposed integration the resultof this is the worsening, the
deterioration of the relationsof the people.
It's like in a marriage whereyou force the people to live
together against their will.
They hate each other, theycannot look at each other, you
know, but you force them and yousay no, you will stay in the
(31:41):
same house and you will sleep inthe same bed, and this is what
we have now in Central andEastern Europe.
And I think it's wiser if webecome, if we start considering
all these issues in a realisticway, in a constructive way, in a
(32:05):
positive way, and we shouldstart looking for other
solutions.
I don't want to blame anybodyfrom the majority, but I also
don't want to blame the minority, the remote people, for not
being able to fully integrateand fully adapt to the culture
that is not their own culture.
Paulina (32:25):
I think we see the normal consequences and the
logical consequences of a failedideology, failed policy, which
was based on the idea that youmust impose on people something
against their will I guess Inever really looked at it from
(33:16):
that point of view, but, like,if we want something changed
from the inside, we need to besolution focused and like, just
focus on that specific issue.
It's really interesting.
Um, we're particular interestedin giving equal attention to
struggles roma face from withinthe community and from the
outside.
Would you like to share yourobservations on these two types
(33:40):
of obstacles through the lens ofyour experience as a journalist
, human rights lawyer, politicalscience researcher and a member
of the community?
Orhan Tahir (33:53):
Yes, of course.
First of all, I think that thebiggest problems, the biggest
issues, are inside our owncommunity.
We need to solve our internalproblems first, and I'm of the
opinion that we have lost toomuch time on trying to convince
(34:20):
the outsider, the people outsideour community, that we are
normal human beings.
We have two legs, two hands,two eyes and so on.
You know, to prove that we arenormal, we are not aliens and so
on, and this was a lost timeand instead of this, I think we
(34:43):
should focus more on our owninternal divisions and internal
problems and internal challenges, because in time, in time of
crisis, this is what people do.
You know, in time of crisis,families come together and sit
on the table and try to solvethe issues and try to look to
(35:06):
find the solutions.
You know when there is atrouble.
So if we consider the Romacommunity as one big family,
then I think it's logical, it'snormal, to focus on these
internal, to focus on theseinternal issues.
(35:28):
We have ideological crisis.
We go through an identity crisisright now because a lot of
young people who go through themainstream educational system
leave the system at the end withhuge identity crisis At the end
when they leave the school,leave the university, they have
huge identity crisis.
(35:49):
It's very difficult for thembecause very often they are
isolated, they find themselvesalienated from their own
community.
They find themselves unable tofit into the non-Roma community,
the non-Roma mainstream.
They very often face hardshipslike it's very difficult for
(36:14):
them even to find a spouse, toget married, to make families,
to create families, because it'svery difficult, especially if
they are Roma girls, because ofthe belief that after a certain
age they are old and they arenot so attractive, and so on.
But we have these internalproblems.
(36:39):
I think there is now an army Iwould say an army of
well-educated Roma people whoexperience huge psychological
identity crisis and they don'tknow what to do and they feel
(37:00):
very, very lonely, verymisunderstood, and they feel
very, very lonely, verymisunderstood, and this is
something that should beaddressed, should be discussed
among ourselves.
We need to see how to helpthese young people to overcome
this identity crisis.
(37:20):
Very often it's also related toinability to find job, to find
stable job.
Many these are my observationsmany of the well-educated Roma
people cannot find job despitetheir education, despite their
(37:41):
degrees, because they are not socompetitive or because of the
discrimination, and they feelvery unhappy, they feel very
frustrated.
I have observed many cases likethis, like, for example, a son
(38:03):
asking his father okay, youstudied so much, and how much
you earn, why you don't work,why you don't work according to
your education, but you worksomething else.
And when the father says to hisson son, you must study, you
must go to university.
And son ask him okay, muststudy, you must go to university
, and so on, ask him okay, andwhat you have achieved, what you
(38:27):
have done?
Okay, you have the universitydegree, what you have done, how
much money you earn monthly.
These are very seriousquestions because practically,
we have now a problem inproducing intelligentsia,
producing Roman elite, and wehave only a very teeny group of
(38:51):
Roma who are still able tosomehow to thrive in the NGO
sector.
But the NGO sector is more orless an artificial system
because it depends on thefunding of the donors and we now
see shrinking of the NGOs.
We now see that more and moreof them experience difficulties
(39:14):
in securing funding and findingmoney.
And now you see this also inthe United States after Trump
took the power.
And we have this also in Europe, in the European Union, because
now the priorities are changingand the European Commission
will redirect money from socialfunds, educational funds, funds
(39:41):
for minorities, will redirectmoney to military industry, army
and so on, because of the fearyou know the problems with
Russia, the war in Ukraine andso on because of the political
developments.
And I think this tiny, tinylayer, tiny group of Roma in the
(40:04):
NGO sectors who have been ableto find some job there and to
secure some salaries, I thinkthey are also now threatened.
They are now insecure, they arenow under pressure.
I'm not very optimistic aboutthe future of the civil society
(40:25):
sector here in Europe because ofthe political developments on
the old continent, but what Ithink is that the Roma community
should turn towards itsinternal sources, internal
(40:45):
forces, internal.
It should look for inspirationinside, because this is very
important.
Roman people have survived inEurope for centuries without
social benefits, withoutscholarships, without projects,
(41:10):
without secured salaries andsecured jobs, and this was the
strength of the community.
So they were able, through theinternal solidarity, to help
each other to survive and theywere very strong internal bonds,
(41:31):
internal ties in the community,and if we want to survive to
meet these new challenges of thechanging world, we should do
the same.
In my opinion.
We should turn to our internalpowers, forces, sources,
(41:54):
abilities as a community.
We should reinvent, rediscoverthe strength of the Roma
community.
The power, because for too longwe have been repeating this
mantra how weak, how poor, howincompetent, how unable to
(42:15):
organize themselves Roma are.
We have been constantlyreinforcing this negative,
negative sides, this negativism,because if you keep talking all
the time at all conferences,all seminars, about negative
things, you will get at the end,negative things and you will
(42:37):
not win the sympathies of anyoneand nobody will pay attention
to you, because they say you aredoomed.
After so many years you stillrepeat the same things.
You say we are discriminated,we are hated, we are persecuted,
we are poor, we are uneducated.
Okay, but this is not a winningstrategy, this is not a
(43:01):
successful strategy.
It's loser strategy to keeprepeating this and to ignore
your strengths, to ignore yourpositive sides, your positive
achievements, your internalpower and strength as a
community.
(43:21):
And this is what we should donow to turn the tide, to reverse
this process of self-denial,self-hatred, self-blaming,
self-marginalization,self-isolation, all of this, to
(43:42):
return this thing, to reversethis thing and to show, to
become more confident that, yes,we can do this by ourselves.
We are strong enough.
We can survive, we can do this.
You know, this is like apsychological, like
psychotherapy.
This is what I think Romapeople need now to start
(44:08):
believing themselves, to starttrusting themselves and to
realize that nobody will helpyou.
That's why, by the way, so manypeople are turning to the
religion.
They say nobody is helping me,maybe God will help me.
I would go and ask God to helpme now.
But it's also part of thistherapy, this process,
(44:39):
psychological process ofrediscovering your internal
powers, because you know youbelieve in God and you know, if
you follow certain rules, if yougo to church, if you pray, if
you are good Christian or if, inthe case of Muslims, good
Muslim, maybe you can becomeagain a master of your faith
(45:01):
again.
You can, you know you can findthe solution of your problems
and this is, I think, veryimportant and that's why I
generally understand why peopleare becoming more religious in
these times.
Of course, this also happens.
It's it's shortcomings, itsnegative sides, but in general,
(45:26):
I see this as a positivedevelopment, because this is
what all people need.
Faith, it can have quitedifferent forms, you know.
It can be faith in God, it canbe faith in your own identity,
in your own nation, but this isalso a general process.
I think, among the majoritypeople, among the mainstream
(45:51):
people, who feel in extremelyvulnerable position, frustrated,
disappointed, disadvantaged,even in the non-Roma majorities,
they very often look for, youknow, they need something to
believe in, they need faith,they need spiritual, spiritual
(46:14):
revival, spiritual growth,somehow.
And different people finddifferent ways.
Of course, some people go to,you know, some people make
different people make differentchoices.
You know some people go to thefar right, some people go to the
far left, some people go to thechurch, but this is a general
(46:37):
process, in fact.
And spirituality I'm endingwith this because I know you're
also interested in spirituality,as far as I can follow your
podcast spirituality issomething that we have lost
recently and this is somethingthat we need.
(46:57):
This was part of our identityand that's why people Romani
people, gypsy people were somuch respected in the past.
Because people were afraid ofthem, because of their spiritual
powers, their supernaturalpowers, but it's a matter of
(47:21):
belief, it's a matter of faithnatural powers, but it's a
matter of belief, it's a matterof faith.
So that's why I think we canovercome this crisis, this
ideological crisis, throughrediscovering, let's say, our
own spirituality, our ownspiritual internal powers we
have.
It's nothing to do with money,nothing to do with material
(47:47):
things.
It's about spiritual things andI think the Roma community is
extremely rich spiritually andyoung Roma people could be able
to understand, to reach thisspiritual wealth of their own
(48:10):
community, to rediscover, tofind it, to understand how rich
the Roman people are.
In fact, in these times ofcrisis, roman people are not
poor.
That's my opinion.
Thank you.
Jezmina (49:08):
We really love talking about all of the Romani
strengths that we have, like ourcultural strengths, our
practices, and when Paulina andI were thinking about writing
you know, secrets of RomaniFortune Telling, we were
thinking this is something thatpeople already love and it's a
way to fall in love with theRomani culture and learn more.
And then you know Roma who wantto learn more about.
(49:30):
Maybe they didn't grow up withcertain traditions and they wish
they did, and so we just lovethis idea of how important it is
to focus on our strengths.
If you could give our culture,our community, our people, like
a little pep talk or rundown of,like some of our strengths some
of them came up already.
You know our spirituality, ourunity, but what would you say
(49:52):
our greatest strengths are?
Orhan Tahir (49:54):
Well, this is something that I'm telling the
students.
Sometimes I also lecture, youknow I also have sometimes, when
they invite me for somepresentations, some lectures.
I say this to the young peoplethere is something unique about
Roma that for so many centuries,so many people were able to
(50:16):
survive without having country,without having army, without
having holy books, withouthaving priest class, without
having anything of this thathelped others to survive in
diaspora.
So persecuted, hated, veryoften feared, isolated,
(50:40):
marginalized Roma didn'tdisappear.
And why they didn't disappear?
Because they had very strongidentity.
They had very strong, you know,very high in fact, self-esteem.
And that's very important,because imagine where you are
when you are in this situationif you don't have strong
(51:01):
identity and self-esteem, youwill disappear.
You will be either exterminatedthey will exterminate you,
assimilate you, you know butthis didn't happen.
These Roma people were able topreserve their unique character,
unique character, national,cultural character despite of
(51:23):
all of this, and nobody else,nobody else, were able to do
this.
I will give you just a fewexamples.
And you know, let's say let'sstart with the Roma slavery.
So it will be also interestingfor your American audience.
(51:44):
I think that the firsthistorical records about Roma
slavery in the Romanian lands,wallachia and Moldavia are from
the 14th century.
The first records about Africanslaves in what is today United
States it was British colony atthat time.
(52:05):
The first records aboutarriving slaves on the ships is
from 16th century, pardon, 17thcentury.
So you see the Roman slavery.
(52:29):
Why I'm saying this to you.
The Roman slavery lasted muchlonger, from 14 to the middle of
19th century.
It lasted much longer than theblack slavery in America,
african-americans of theAfrican-Americans but this is
something that people don'tstudy in schools and, unlike the
(52:51):
African-Americans Roma people,the Roma slaves were able to
preserve most of them were ableto preserve their language,
their identity, their culture.
You know something that Blackpeople, african Americans, were
not able to do.
You know there is no AfricanAmerican language today in the
United States.
Jezmina (53:11):
Hi friends, just popping in to clarify what Orhan
was saying about language.
So, because people who wereenslaved from Africa came from a
lot of different countries andplaces and spoke different
languages and dialects, thelinguistic landscape of slavery
(53:32):
is a little complicated and theway that language has been
preserved has mostly beenthrough Creole languages and
dialects.
So, for instance, gullah,geechee, haitian Creole,
louisiana Creole, and if youwant to learn more about the
(53:53):
ways that the languages of theenslaved people have become
these Creole languages languages, you can check out a couple of
websites that we liked.
Npsgov has an african americanheritage and ethnography page,
and it's through the nationalpark service actually, so
there's a really interestingpage on that.
(54:14):
And then there's also a website, wordscrcom, and the article is
what languages did slaves speak?
Or maybe enslaved people wouldbe a better way to say that.
So if you want to learn moreabout this, uh, feel free to do
a little research, but we justwanted to shout out that there
has been language preservation,but because roma all spoke, you
(54:36):
know the same language.
It was a lot easier for us topreserve our language through
slavery in this more concretelanguage, so fascinating episode
.
Orhan Tahir (54:49):
Let's get back to it.
And unlike the Jewish people Iwill make another comparison
that might be interesting forthe audience Unlike the Jewish
people who had their polybooks,their synagogues, their priestly
class, you know of rabbis,rabbis, and which helped them to
(55:14):
survive, the Romans didn't haveanything like this.
We didn't have, you know,anything like this.
And something very important,very interesting, is that
practically Romani language waspreserved only orally.
It was not preserved in awritten form, it was not written
(55:38):
language.
Well, the Jewish, practicallythe old Jewish language, was
preserved in the holy books.
It was written, but it was notoral language, it was not spoken
language.
So the spoken languages of theJewish people were Yiddish.
The main branches were Yiddishand Ladino, but Yiddish and
(56:10):
Ladino are languages with lessthan 50% of original Jewish
words.
Yiddish is considered a form ofa German language because it's
mainly mostly German inside.
Ladino is mostly Spanish.
So in their oral languages,their oral languages, they were
heavily influenced by non-Jewishlanguages, while in the case of
(56:33):
Roma, you have over 50 percentof original Indo-Aryan Romani
lexics.
You know lexic words like basis, grammatical, lexical basis.
Of course there are borrowingsfrom other languages, but it's
something unique that peopledon't, students don't learn in
(56:56):
schools.
They don't learn inuniversities.
So it's very important for, alsofor young Romani to know this
that Romani language, romaniculture and Romani identity were
preserved by our ancestors inmuch difficult and challenging
conditions.
We didn't have all these thingsthat the other had.
(57:21):
You know all these things thatthe other had.
Despite of this, our ancestorswere able to, you know, to
preserve this identity.
And if this identity were sovital, so strong, so rich, why
should we give up from it?
Why should we give up from it?
Why should not we preserve it?
(57:41):
Why should not we develop it?
It's very simple.
The problem is that a lot of,even among the Roma people, most
of them don't know theirculture, they don't know their
history, their own history.
So how can they be proud ifthey don't know all of these
facts about their own identity?
So, learning education in myopinion, the education is
(58:12):
crucial, but Roma children andRoma youths should be educated
not only in the history, cultureof the majorities, but also in
their own identity, in thehistory of their own history, in
their own culture.
Very, very important in myopinion.
(58:33):
This is something that we needto think about and to work in
this direction, as far as I cando anything.
As far as I can, I'm trying todo something in this direction,
but of course it requires awider consensus, a wider
(58:57):
mobilization around this cause,around this idea.
Paulina (59:12):
I actually think that leads us into our next question.
Really nicely.
We love the podcast Romotopiaand we're going to steal a
little question from them.
What is your vision ofRomatopia, our best possible
existence and what does the roadthere look like?
Orhan Tahir (59:36):
I think that the answer to this question requires
a wider debate among Romapeople, because I think there
should be a competition ofvisions about the future of Roma
.
There should be a widerdiscussion, and this is
(01:00:00):
something necessary.
This is something importantespecially now when, practically
, we are witnessing the end ofthe old system, the global
political system, economicsystem and so on.
(01:00:28):
New players appear on thepolitical scene.
I think now is a crucial timefor robot people also to analyze
their own past.
(01:00:48):
By the way, this year we mark80 years since the end of the
Second World War now in 2025,and eight years since the end of
the war, and it's a very goodoccasion also for Roma people to
make some kind of evaluation ofwhat has happened.
(01:01:09):
You know, what happened overthese eight years, next eight
years, because it's time, Ithink, for all people to start
thinking in a longer perspective.
You know, um, although this isnot very typical for us, but we
(01:01:34):
should learn how to, you know,think, and I will make a here an
interesting connection.
It's, it's, it's very, you know, I was.
I have always wondered aboutthis.
How was possible that r people?
You know, in the past they werepredicting the future of the
others.
You know, our ancestors werepredicting the future right
Through different methods,different ways.
So maybe now it's time for usto predict our own future.
(01:01:57):
Why not, you know, to try toforesee what awaits us in the
next 10, 20, 30, 50, 80 years.
And it's not somethingimpossible, it's not something
so difficult, because we alreadyhave a lot of information, we
have modern technologies, wehave all of these social
networks and so on.
So why not using them topredict our own future, them to
(01:02:24):
predict our own future?
So it's very difficult for meto give some kind of a clear
vision, clear formula about thefuture of normal people, but I
think okay, I hope that we areable to learn from the lessons,
to learn some lessons from thepast and to, let's say, to try
(01:02:47):
to not repeat some mistakes fromthe past.
Because I like this analogySometimes I'm using it also in
my lectures that we Roma arelike students who miss the
(01:03:09):
history class, who always is notthere in the most important
lesson for the most importantlesson, so like a dropout from
the history class, and that'swhy we repeat again.
We repeat the same class.
We cannot go to the next level.
I hope that this could change,and now we have enough many
(01:03:37):
educated people, well-educatedpeople among Roma, we have
historians, we have politicians,we have scholars and all kinds
of people, and I hope thatsomehow our collective mind, our
collective intelligence, willhelp us to create a better
(01:04:01):
future for our children.
Because this is, I think thisis what I'm concerned about.
As a father of two daughters,two wonderful daughters, I'm
concerned about the future of mychildren.
You know, when I see what'sgoing on around me and that's
why I think it's very importantto think, you know, to try at
(01:04:27):
least to try to secure a betterfuture for the next generations.
You know this is our duty myopinion as people, as human
beings, that's so beautiful.
Jezmina (01:04:40):
I love the idea of us predicting our own future, and
we're such huge fans of Jules LePen and everything that they're
doing with Roma Futurism, whichfeels like such an important
artistic movement for us toreally see ourselves in the
future.
So thank you for that.
We are shifting gears to one ofour staple questions, which is
(01:05:00):
who is your Romani crush, whichreally just means who's a Romani
person you admire and you wouldlike to spotlight or shout out
right now.
Orhan Tahir (01:05:10):
Oh, there is one very interesting person from
Spain.
His name is Helios Gómez.
He was an anarchist,participant in the Spanish Civil
War, but he was in the prison.
(01:05:31):
He was a painter, he was awriter and then he survived.
He survived the war and hewrote, by the way, at the end of
his life, some very interestingtexts about people which are
(01:06:01):
not widely known.
Um, but, uh, I, I like his.
You know his personality.
I'm not an anarchist, I don'tshare this views.
You know ideology, politicalideology, but uh, maybe, because
, um, I'm, I'm, I'm drawing, youknow drawing, since a this is
my hobby, actually, I likedrawing, painting, and also I
(01:06:27):
find his personality very, youknow, I think his life was very
interesting, very dramatical,and he really liked his people,
even in the prison.
He painted a very famousActually, he painted the walls
of his.
What was it called?
(01:06:51):
He painted inside the walls ofhis cell, prison cell with Roma
people, and it's very famous.
It's still preserved in Spain.
You can see it, you can readabout it.
I forgot the name of that.
It's something like a chapel,something called Gypsy Chapel or
(01:07:16):
something like this.
It's preserved and even in the.
You know, even moments, youknow, in his life.
When he was in the prison, he,you know he was thinking about
his people.
He was painting you know thison the walls the life of his
(01:07:37):
people.
Actually, he preserved Romapeople suffering like Jesus
Christ, this idea, he made thisassociation with the suffering
of Jesus, of Mary and the child,all of this very powerful
analogy, which is also importantand that's why maybe I find him
(01:08:01):
, you know, I find him extremelypowerful image, powerful
personality, and maybe morepeople should know about him and
learn from him.
Paulina (01:08:16):
So how can people find and support your work and what
do you have coming up on thehorizon?
Can people find and supportyour work and what do you?
Orhan Tahir (01:08:24):
have coming up on the horizon.
Well, I'm busy right now withmy PhD research and I'm very
actually I would like to contactmore people to maybe to create
(01:08:45):
some kind of academic network ofpeople from the academia,
researchers who are interestedin the topics of HOMA, paria,
cast system, the intellectualand cultural exchange between
India and Europe, and I'm veryinterested in communicating and
(01:09:07):
exchanging ideas with otherpeople working in the same field
, and this could be people fromthe academia also, people from
the field of art.
You know culture.
I would be happy if I'm able to.
You know culture.
I would be happy if I'm able to, you know, to reach more people
with similar interests, similarresearch and intellectual
(01:09:31):
interests in the future and alsoto discuss, of course, this is
as a researcher.
You know my capacity as aresearcher, but in my capacity
as a Romani person, I'm alsointerested in discussing with
other people, other Romanipeople, different possible
(01:09:53):
visions for the future, for ourfuture in Europe, and not only
in Europe but globally, because,after all, all Roma community
is a global community and Ithink we should not be focused
so much on Europe, because thereare billions of Roma outside
Europe, in the United States,canada, brazil, argentina, even
(01:10:14):
in Africa, australia and manyother places around the world.
So we should start thinking ofourselves as a truly global
community.
Like we have cousins everywhereand it's time to you know, to
discover our relatives, ourcousins, to get in touch with
them and to start, you know, amore active communication.
(01:10:40):
This, this is what I think, thisis what I see as important to
improve the communicationbetween Roma from different
countries and continents, andalso to look, of course, to
create alliances, to createpartnerships, to find new allies
(01:11:04):
among non-Roma people, becausethere are a lot of non-Roma
people who are also, you know,somehow see themselves in Roma.
Maybe they have something, somegypsy blood, I don't know, but
I also face, I also see, I alsosee many normal people who are
quite interested in in romanissue and are willing to help,
(01:11:31):
willing to give a hand and, whynot?
Creating a broader, broadercoalition for their partnership.
You know, more partnerships andconnections with people around
are, you know, based on thespiritual, spiritual connection,
spiritual power, because Ireally believe that the
(01:11:52):
alliances should be built aroundthe spiritual bonds that
connect us, not so much on, youknow, on the usual, not so much
on the usual concepts and ideas,but spirituality, the spiritual
advantages, cultural advantagesof Roma.
This is something I think thisis our most important apto.
(01:12:17):
It's not financial, it's notmaterial, it's spiritual.
Jezmina (01:12:24):
That's beautiful.
Thank you so much for coming onand speaking with us.
What's the best way for peopleto get in touch with you?
Do you prefer social media?
Do you want people to email you?
Orhan Tahir (01:12:36):
My Facebook profile has been deactivated by
Facebook administration for Idon't know.
They didn't like my posts, ohsure they've got lots of issues.
Yes, but I'm available.
I'm available at LinkedIn email, my email, and I think it's not
(01:12:59):
so difficult to contact me.
To find me on social networks.
Jezmina (01:13:05):
We'll put your LinkedIn in our show notes.
Yeah, thank you.
This was such a pleasure tospeak with you and, yeah, what a
joy to hear your thoughts.
We really appreciate your time.
Paulina (01:13:14):
Yeah, thank you for your contribution to educating
people inside and outside.
I always feel like I just gotsuper educated just now too.
It's a lot and I feel like it'sso needed, so we appreciate all
of your work.
Orhan Tahir (01:13:32):
Thank you very much .
I remain an optimist despite ofeverything.
I'm an optimist about thefuture of our people.
I also thank you for invitingme and giving me this
opportunity to talk, to reachyour audience.
Jezmina (01:13:47):
Oh, of course, we will join you in your optimism and do
some fun things in the future.
Paulina (01:13:53):
I'll try to be optimistic.
Jezmina (01:13:57):
You are in your own way .
Thank you.
Thank you, thank you everyone,bye.
Okay, bye.
Paulina (01:14:22):
Thank you for listening to Romanistan Podcast.
Jezmina (01:14:26):
You can find us on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook
at Romanistan Podcast and onTwitter at RomanistanPod, To
support us, join our Patreon forextra content or just donate to
our Ko-Fi fundraiser, ko-ficombackslash romanistan, and please
rate, review and subscribe.
(01:14:47):
It helps people find our show.
Paulina (01:14:49):
it helps us so much you can follow jez on instagram at
jasminavantila and paulina atromani holistic.
You can get our book Secrets ofRomani Fortune Telling online
or wherever books are sold.
Visit romanistanpodcastcom forevents, educational resources
(01:15:09):
and more.
Jezmina (01:15:10):
Email us at romanistanpodcast at gmailcom
for inquiries hosted by JasminaVon Tila and Paulina Stevens,
conceived of by Paulina Stevens,edited by Victor Pachas, with
music by Victor.
Pachas and artwork by ElijahBarado.
Hey, romanistan listeners, we just wanted to put
a note on the start of thisepisode that we are so concerned
about America's fascism, and weknow you are too.
It is not possible for oneperson to solve all the world's
or country's problems, but weall have our gifts and we all
(00:22):
have our limitations, and we allhave ways that we can show up
to resist fascism.
And all that matters is thatyou show up in some way, whether
you got to lay low or whetheryou have an opportunity to be
loud, it's all about your safety, but it's also about just doing
(00:42):
the work, whatever that is thatyou can do.
So we are in resistance withyou against this fascist regime,
against fascism all over theworld, and we continue to fight
in all the ways we can.
So thank you for being here.
Paulina (01:07):
Welcome to Romanistan.
We're your friendlyneighborhood gypsies.
I'm Paulina and I'm Jez.
Wait, my cat.
I have to get him out of here.
He just got in here and he'smaking so much noise.
Jezmina (01:21):
Paulina has an orange cat too.
Paulina (01:29):
Oh great, oh my, my god , he's very lively, okay, and so
we are here today with orhantahir and we are so excited to
introduce him.
Orhan tahir is a romani lawyer,scholar, scholar and journalist
originally from Bulgaria, whohas lived in Western Europe for
(01:50):
the past 10 years.
He is currently engaged as aPhD researcher in political
science at the HeidelbergUniversity in Germany.
Orhan's focus is on theconstruction of gypsies as an
outcast pariah people inEuropean imagination, in line
with the orientalist narrativesof colonial India and the impact
(02:14):
of this concept on modernperceptions of Roma.
He is among the first scholarsin Europe to examine the
situation of Roma from theperspective of caste, a new
approach still unpopular inEuropean academia.
Welcome.
Orhan Tahir (02:34):
Thank you for having me.
Jezmina (02:36):
We're so happy to have you, and so we always start with
our intro question Where's yourfamily from?
What's your visa?
Orhan Tahir (02:48):
question where's your family from?
What's your visa?
Yes, I'm originally fromBulgaria.
It's a small country insoutheastern Europe.
I'm from a small town near theBlack Sea coast.
It's called Provadia, and myfamily comes from the community
of Muslim Roma, or so-calledTurkish Roma, where
(03:15):
traditionally Romani language isspoken, but also Turkish
language is widely spoken, sothe new generations speak mostly
Turkish, unfortunately.
So this is my community, infact.
Paulina (03:31):
We always ask this question and we get a lot of
different answers depending onhow you define the word.
But do you consider yourself arebel?
Orhan Tahir (03:41):
I have often been labeled by others as a rebel,
but frankly, I don't seeanything rebellious about
speaking my mind openly andbeing myself, so I don't
consider myself a rebel.
Jezmina (04:02):
I like the idea that it should just be normal to speak
your mind and be honest aboutyour feelings, Of course yes.
We were wondering what was yourfirst ever job and what
inspired you to pursue thiscareer path.
You have such an interesting,dynamic career.
Orhan Tahir (04:19):
When I was a university student, my first
real job was a postman.
When I was a university student, my first real job was a
postman.
Later I started working in ahuman rights NGO and this is how
my career began.
Actually, I spent the last 20years mostly in the human rights
(04:43):
sector, in the NGO sectors, butalso I have experience in the
private sector.
I used to work for a bank forsome time, for private companies
, as a lawyer, but mainly, myprofile mainly is a human rights
(05:03):
lawyer.
This is what I have been doing.
I have done for most of my life,actually, and only recently I
decided to go to academia simplybecause I couldn't find answers
(05:26):
of many questions while workingas a human rights lawyer.
For example, I couldn't findsatisfactory answers to the
question of why Roma, after somany centuries, continue to be
treated like second-handcitizens in Europe to be treated
like second-hand citizens inEurope, and that's why I decided
(05:46):
to start an academic career.
I enrolled at the University ofHeidelberg and decided to
explore these questions myself,to look for answers, to search
for answers myself instead ofreading and accepting the
(06:10):
answers already provided byothers.
So this is part of my careerdevelopment, of my path of
evolution, of spiritualphilosophical evolution, and
this is how I ended up in theacademia, in fact, because I'm
(06:31):
still looking, after so manyyears, for the answers of these
questions.
Jezmina (06:35):
They're deep questions and it must be gratifying, after
so long of working in differentsectors where you are dealing
with human rights, to look forsome answers for yourself.
Orhan Tahir (06:48):
Yes, certainly, absolutely.
Paulina (07:01):
Can you tell us a little more about why you study
Roma human rights crisis inEurope from the perspective of
caste?
Orhan Tahir (07:31):
why I'm interested in the caste system as an
explanation for the currentsituation of Roma.
Since colonial times, actuallysince the 17th century, romani
people have been described bysome authors as pariah people.
(07:51):
Pariah, similarly to the pariahpeople, or untouchables or
Chandala they have differentnames are the people who are
outside the Indian caste system.
(08:12):
They were positioned outsidethe caste system.
This is the outcast people, infact, and some European
travelers, scholars,missionaries are going to India
compared Roma to these outcastpeople in India and they said
(08:37):
well, we also have pariahoutcast people in Europe.
These are the gypsies.
They are the same people andafter so many centuries they
haven't changed.
They remain the same.
They are dark-skinned, they arestill Indians here in Europe,
they are aliens, they areoutsiders.
(08:58):
And this was the explanation.
And there were a long line ofscholars writing reinforcing
this notion, this idea, inEuropean intellectual circles,
in European academia.
I think that this idea thatRoma people are not simply
(09:38):
different ethnic group butactually outcast people,
completely different, stillpersistent.
It's still widely accepted,reinforced, and I think that's
(10:01):
why it's important to study thisissue in detail, to see how
this concept of pariah has beentransferred from, appropriated,
from India to Europe and whyRoma people are still perceived
(10:23):
as pariah people.
There are even some scholarswho use this concept even today,
and in the beginning of the20th century it was Max Weber
who has popularized this conceptin sociology and also in other
(10:43):
fields of science, in otherscientific fields.
Basically, he said that theJews were pariah people in the
medieval times, in medievaltimes, and gypsies are pariahs
still pariahs in modern times.
So what happened?
Why the Jewish people are nomore pariahs but gypsies are
(11:04):
still pariahs?
What happened?
What are the explanations, thehistorical reasons, what is the
logic behind this?
This is what I'm interested inand this is some something that
is not very popular in Europe,in European academia.
(11:25):
Basically, roma are not seen inthis light.
In Roman studies, in science,discrimination against Roma is
basically not seen in thiscontext of caste relations.
(11:47):
But if Roma people are stillpariah, as Max Weber, pariah
people as Max Weber and someother scores claim, then who
decides that they are pariah?
Who makes them pariah?
Who outcasts them?
(12:07):
Because if you have outcastpeople, it means you have caste
people, you have castestructures, caste structure,
caste ideology that excludesthese people and positions them
outside the caste system.
Then this, actually, myresearch, is not so much about
(12:28):
Roma people, but about Europe asa system which obviously,
obviously shares some elementsfrom the Indian caste system,
because there is not, for me, atleast for me, there is no other
explanation.
How is it possible thatimmigrants who recently came
(12:49):
from Africa and Asia, likesecond and third generation of
immigrants, can be much betterintegrated in European societies
than the Roma people who havebeen in this continent for
centuries?
It's not just about ethnicity,it's not just about different
ethnic groups or something likethis, but this is something much
(13:13):
more complex.
It's much more complex becausethe Gypsies, roma people, are
still considered as people fromdifferent, completely different
dimension.
It's something going beyondskin color, beyond ethnic
identity, beyond anything likethis, because even today, you
(13:36):
have Roma people who are white,blue, with blue eyes, blonde
hair, and they experienceabsolutely the same levels of
discrimination as the darkskinned Roma people.
At the moment that the peoplearound them realize that they
are gypsies, at the moment thattheir true identity comes up,
(13:58):
becomes clear, they experienceabsolutely the same levels of
discrimination, which means thatit's not simply, it's not so
simple, it's not like a color,it's not just racism, and that's
why it's different from, let'ssay, racism against African
Americans in the United States.
(14:19):
It's much more.
It's much more like, maybe,antisemitism.
There are more similaritieswith antisemitism.
So that's why I'm interested inthis issue and my research is
(14:43):
about construction of Romapeople, the image of Roma as
pariah people, outcast people,in Europe and the impact of this
concept on modern perceptionsabout Roma and the functioning
of European political socialsystem, because I consider it a
(15:04):
system.
Despite of the fact that thereare different countries,
different nations on the oldcontinent, practically
everywhere, roma are treated ina very similar way as outcasts,
as pariahs, as people who don'tbelong here, people who, even
(15:24):
after so many centuries, areethnically, racially, socially,
in every possible way differentfrom the majority.
In the very similar way, justlike the outcast people in India
, like Dalit people in India,like Dalit people in India.
(15:51):
So similarities between Indiaand Europe.
How these ideas about castesystem, about superior and
inferior races, castes, howthese ideas were appropriated in
Europe in the colonial timesand they are still alive in
Europe.
They are still here, they arestill present.
Paulina (16:17):
This is what I wanted, to just add this quickly in for
the listeners that may not, maynot know, but I wanted to share
(16:44):
with you.
So for people that are alsoinside the community or people
that are, you know, like mixedor assimilated they're not
really, I guess, maybe here inhere.
I know, here in the us it'slike that.
I'm not exactly sure how it isin europe, but if you don't
follow like the rules to kind ofbe in the community, like you
(17:08):
know, I had an arranged marriageand stuff like that and I
decided that I wanted toseparate from the community,
you're also outcasted, even fromyour own community.
So like a little joke that wehave is like here at Romanistan
we're like the outcasts of theoutcasts.
So it's funny that you say that.
(17:32):
I also did have one littlefollow-up kind of question for
you.
The caste system still exists inthe culture, just the way that
you're explaining it.
I know that in my community mymuchwaya side of the family
would always say like we're thebest of the roma, like we're the
most respectable, like that'swhy, like also that's why we had
(17:53):
so many rules to like our headcoverings and our long skirts
and not showing and serving oneverybody.
And then my other side of thefamily, my galdara side was more
like kind of like okay, yeah,we're gonna do this, we're gonna
do that.
Like they didn't really carethat much and they were like oh,
the Machuaya people thinkthey're the greatest people.
They would joke like oh yeah,the greatest people in the world
(18:15):
Like is that the caste systemwithin the culture as well?
Orhan Tahir (18:28):
According to some scholars, these are remnants of
the caste system.
Of course, some other scholarsdisagree with this idea.
Some believe that this might beinherited from India, these
internal divisions, becausepractically every community in
India, even today, is very muchinternally divided.
They are hierarchies, complexstructures, endogamous groups.
(18:59):
But it's also related tosomething else that after the
arrival in Europe, the Romadispersed everywhere and going
to different geographical places, different countries, different
regions, among other cultures,settling among other cultures,
(19:25):
settling among other cultures.
This also influenced and it'salso contributed to these
internal divisions, becausepeople who live in Hungary are,
more or less, you know theyadapted to Hungarian culture.
Others who went to Spainadapted to Spanish culture, more
(19:48):
or less, and there are alsoregional differences.
This also can be explainedthrough the stratification,
internal stratification,geographical dispersion of Roma.
But I know what you mean infact.
But I will tell you somethingvery curious I have.
(20:17):
I recently I did a DNA test inmy heritage and what I found out
is that I have relatives amongpeople and some of them are
close relatives among peoplefrom other groups which are very
distant, even groups in Hungary, groups in Spain which are very
(20:40):
distant from me, and normallymy group don't intermarry to
these other groups, especiallywhen there are also these
religious divides Christian,muslim but now you know, after
taking the DNA test, I see thata couple of generations ago
(21:05):
people were intermarrying people.
There were marriages betweenthese different groups.
It was something going beyondthis internal division.
So I tend to believe that theinternal division of Roma is a
recent, I think more recentdevelopment.
(21:25):
More recent development BecauseI'm a Muslim, my community, my
group, is a Muslim Roma.
They are Muslim Roma, but I haverelatives, I have third cousins
, among Lovari people, lovariRoma from Hungary.
I have cousins among Ursari,lingurari people who are
(21:45):
Romanian speaking.
So how was this possible?
It was possible because, like100 years ago, maybe, these
divisions were not so, or 200years ago the divisions were not
so significant.
And if our grandfathers, yourgrandfathers and my grandfathers
(22:05):
meet, they will find much moresimilarities among themselves,
between themselves, than we findamong them, simply because they
were not so integrated,probably as we are in the
surrounding cultures, because wespeak the language much better,
we have many more non-Romafriends and we are much more
(22:32):
integrated into this non-Romaenvironment in comparison to our
forefathers.
Jezmina (22:51):
That leads really well into our next question, speaking
of divisions and unity.
We both really enjoyed youressay when Are Roma?
Analysis of the IdeologicalCrisis in the Roma Movement we
shared in our book and on thepodcast before that.
We adopted the name Romanistanbecause we love the idea of
Romani people unified all overthe world in a kind of like
intangible nation, and we don'twant to colonize any land, but
(23:14):
we do want Roma to berepresented like any other
nation in the UN and theEuropean Parliament and so on.
So can you share your thoughtson what the Roma nation is or
could be and why the ideologicalcrisis of whether or not to
identify as a unified nation isso contentious among some Roma?
Orhan Tahir (23:34):
Yes.
On the first question are Romaa nation?
I would suggest you to go toany of Central or Eastern
European countries and ask thepeople from the ethnic
majorities in these countriesare roma a different nation, a
different nation from yournation, or are or do roma belong
(23:55):
to your nation?
And I'm sure that the majorityof them?
If you ask the bulgarians,hungarians, czech people, polish
people, they answer themajority of them they will
answer the gypsies are differentfrom us.
Gypsies are not like us.
Gypsies don't belong to ournation.
Gypsies are different nation.
(24:16):
And when the people around youperceive you as a separate
nation, but you insist, you denythis, you reject this and you
keep insist on being somehowaccepted, integrated, blended,
(24:39):
assimilated into this other,this non-Roman nation, then the
problem lies with you.
You have a problem.
It's not a problem of non-Roma.
It's a problem of Roma Becauseafter so many centuries, we have
been able to preserve ourlanguage and identity, our
(25:01):
language, culture and identity,unlike many other tribes, ethnic
groups, communities that cameto Europe but disappeared.
There are hundreds of them.
So, after so many centuries,after more than eight centuries,
if you are still seen ascompletely different from the
(25:27):
others, you have a choice youeither feel ashamed and you beg
being accepted by the non-Romasociety, or you appreciate
yourself and you start lovingyourself and you embrace and
(25:50):
celebrate your culture and youridentity.
So the ideological crisis weare witnessing is because so
many people who are ashamed oftheir identity are taking
(26:11):
leading positions in theorganizations or are trying to
become speakers of the community, or they are hired, they are
endorsed, they are promoted indifferent structures, but these
people don't love themselves.
They don't love themselvesBecause if you love yourself, if
(26:35):
you know your community, if youknow your culture, you will
never say that there is nounified Romani language.
You will never pay so muchattention to the internal
divisions among Roma, becauseyou know that we are all the
same people, regardless of thegeographical, religious, social
(26:57):
and other differences.
We are the same people and ifyou travel, if you visit
different Roma communities, youwill find out the similarities.
You will find out a lot ofsimilarities among them.
Of course there are differences, but there, knowing our culture
(27:35):
, learning our language, this isthe part forward, because
everything else is failing.
All other ideologies, likeother concepts or ideas about
what should happen with Roma,are failing practically.
You have unsuccessful decade ofRoma inclusion in Central and
(27:59):
Eastern Europe.
You have unsuccessful projectsand policies totally failing
regarding the Roma community.
And it's not because people,it's not so much because people
are corrupted or people are bador people are, you know, don't
do their job so well.
It's not because this.
(28:19):
The explanation is very simple.
The explanation is very simplewhen you have two different
nationalities, ethnic groups,ethnic communities and you try
to merge them and you impose theidea that the one ethnicity
should simulate the other, well,and it doesn't work because
(28:42):
they don't want to accept you,then you cannot blame anybody.
You cannot blame anybody.
You cannot blame the majority.
You cannot blame the majority,the people from the ethnic
majority, because they havetheir free will and they also
have a say.
And when they say I don't likeyou, I don't like gypsies, I
don't like to live with gypsies,to work with gypsies, I don't
(29:03):
like to live with gypsies, towork with gypsies, to send my
children to study with gypsies,what you do, this is the will of
the majority and you have ademocracy where the majority
decides.
And if this is the will of themajority, you can either keep
blaming them and calling themracist or you can face the
(29:23):
reality and be realists and say,ok, you don't like us, maybe we
should look for anotheralternative, for another
solution.
We cannot impose on you, wecannot force you to love us, to
like us, to tolerate us, againstyour will.
It's very simple.
It's like in the marriage, youknow, in the marriage where the
(29:47):
husband and the wife cannot livetogether and don't love each
other and it's difficult forthem to.
You know what to do.
You force them to stay togetheror you say, okay, you are free
to follow your path, to separate, and so on.
So these relations,inter-ethnic relations, are very
(30:09):
similar to personal relationsbetween people, you know, in a
marriage or in a relationship.
So that's why I think that Idon't see any problem with the
concept, with the idea that Romaconstitute a separate, a
different nation.
They have always been different, they have always been
(30:33):
perceived as something differentand I don't see any problem in
the failure, the failingintegration, inclusion
strategies.
Simply because you cannot forcethe people to accept you, they
will become even angrier, theywill hate you even more.
This is what we see in Europenow, because a lot of people,
(30:57):
especially in Central andEastern Europe, are very angry
that someone with the idea thatthey must accept the Roma people
.
They must live with the Romapeople against their will.
So, instead of improvement ofthe relations between Roma and
(31:17):
non-Roma, the result of thisforced integration let's say
imposed integration the resultof this is the worsening, the
deterioration of the relationsof the people.
It's like in a marriage whereyou force the people to live
together against their will.
They hate each other, theycannot look at each other, you
know, but you force them and yousay no, you will stay in the
(31:41):
same house and you will sleep inthe same bed, and this is what
we have now in Central andEastern Europe.
And I think it's wiser if webecome, if we start considering
all these issues in a realisticway, in a constructive way, in a
(32:05):
positive way, and we shouldstart looking for other
solutions.
I don't want to blame anybodyfrom the majority, but I also
don't want to blame the minority, the remote people, for not
being able to fully integrateand fully adapt to the culture
that is not their own culture.
Paulina (32:25):
I think we see the normal consequences and the
logical consequences of a failedideology, failed policy, which
was based on the idea that youmust impose on people something
against their will I guess Inever really looked at it from
(33:16):
that point of view, but, like,if we want something changed
from the inside, we need to besolution focused and like, just
focus on that specific issue.
It's really interesting.
Um, we're particular interestedin giving equal attention to
struggles roma face from withinthe community and from the
outside.
Would you like to share yourobservations on these two types
(33:40):
of obstacles through the lens ofyour experience as a journalist
, human rights lawyer, politicalscience researcher and a member
of the community?
Orhan Tahir (33:53):
Yes, of course.
First of all, I think that thebiggest problems, the biggest
issues, are inside our owncommunity.
We need to solve our internalproblems first, and I'm of the
opinion that we have lost toomuch time on trying to convince
(34:20):
the outsider, the people outsideour community, that we are
normal human beings.
We have two legs, two hands,two eyes and so on.
You know, to prove that we arenormal, we are not aliens and so
on, and this was a lost timeand instead of this, I think we
(34:43):
should focus more on our owninternal divisions and internal
problems and internal challenges, because in time, in time of
crisis, this is what people do.
You know, in time of crisis,families come together and sit
on the table and try to solvethe issues and try to look to
(35:06):
find the solutions.
You know when there is atrouble.
So if we consider the Romacommunity as one big family,
then I think it's logical, it'snormal, to focus on these
internal, to focus on theseinternal issues.
(35:28):
We have ideological crisis.
We go through an identity crisisright now because a lot of
young people who go through themainstream educational system
leave the system at the end withhuge identity crisis At the end
when they leave the school,leave the university, they have
huge identity crisis.
(35:49):
It's very difficult for thembecause very often they are
isolated, they find themselvesalienated from their own
community.
They find themselves unable tofit into the non-Roma community,
the non-Roma mainstream.
They very often face hardshipslike it's very difficult for
(36:14):
them even to find a spouse, toget married, to make families,
to create families, because it'svery difficult, especially if
they are Roma girls, because ofthe belief that after a certain
age they are old and they arenot so attractive, and so on.
But we have these internalproblems.
(36:39):
I think there is now an army Iwould say an army of
well-educated Roma people whoexperience huge psychological
identity crisis and they don'tknow what to do and they feel
(37:00):
very, very lonely, verymisunderstood, and they feel
very, very lonely, verymisunderstood, and this is
something that should beaddressed, should be discussed
among ourselves.
We need to see how to helpthese young people to overcome
this identity crisis.
(37:20):
Very often it's also related toinability to find job, to find
stable job.
Many these are my observationsmany of the well-educated Roma
people cannot find job despitetheir education, despite their
(37:41):
degrees, because they are not socompetitive or because of the
discrimination, and they feelvery unhappy, they feel very
frustrated.
I have observed many cases likethis, like, for example, a son
(38:03):
asking his father okay, youstudied so much, and how much
you earn, why you don't work,why you don't work according to
your education, but you worksomething else.
And when the father says to hisson son, you must study, you
must go to university.
And son ask him okay, muststudy, you must go to university
, and so on, ask him okay, andwhat you have achieved, what you
(38:27):
have done?
Okay, you have the universitydegree, what you have done, how
much money you earn monthly.
These are very seriousquestions because practically,
we have now a problem inproducing intelligentsia,
producing Roman elite, and wehave only a very teeny group of
(38:51):
Roma who are still able tosomehow to thrive in the NGO
sector.
But the NGO sector is more orless an artificial system
because it depends on thefunding of the donors and we now
see shrinking of the NGOs.
We now see that more and moreof them experience difficulties
(39:14):
in securing funding and findingmoney.
And now you see this also inthe United States after Trump
took the power.
And we have this also in Europe, in the European Union, because
now the priorities are changingand the European Commission
will redirect money from socialfunds, educational funds, funds
(39:41):
for minorities, will redirectmoney to military industry, army
and so on, because of the fearyou know the problems with
Russia, the war in Ukraine andso on because of the political
developments.
And I think this tiny, tinylayer, tiny group of Roma in the
(40:04):
NGO sectors who have been ableto find some job there and to
secure some salaries, I thinkthey are also now threatened.
They are now insecure, they arenow under pressure.
I'm not very optimistic aboutthe future of the civil society
(40:25):
sector here in Europe because ofthe political developments on
the old continent, but what Ithink is that the Roma community
should turn towards itsinternal sources, internal
(40:45):
forces, internal.
It should look for inspirationinside, because this is very
important.
Roman people have survived inEurope for centuries without
social benefits, withoutscholarships, without projects,
(41:10):
without secured salaries andsecured jobs, and this was the
strength of the community.
So they were able, through theinternal solidarity, to help
each other to survive and theywere very strong internal bonds,
(41:31):
internal ties in the community,and if we want to survive to
meet these new challenges of thechanging world, we should do
the same.
In my opinion.
We should turn to our internalpowers, forces, sources,
(41:54):
abilities as a community.
We should reinvent, rediscoverthe strength of the Roma
community.
The power, because for too longwe have been repeating this
mantra how weak, how poor, howincompetent, how unable to
(42:15):
organize themselves Roma are.
We have been constantlyreinforcing this negative,
negative sides, this negativism,because if you keep talking all
the time at all conferences,all seminars, about negative
things, you will get at the end,negative things and you will
(42:37):
not win the sympathies of anyoneand nobody will pay attention
to you, because they say you aredoomed.
After so many years you stillrepeat the same things.
You say we are discriminated,we are hated, we are persecuted,
we are poor, we are uneducated.
Okay, but this is not a winningstrategy, this is not a
(43:01):
successful strategy.
It's loser strategy to keeprepeating this and to ignore
your strengths, to ignore yourpositive sides, your positive
achievements, your internalpower and strength as a
community.
(43:21):
And this is what we should donow to turn the tide, to reverse
this process of self-denial,self-hatred, self-blaming,
self-marginalization,self-isolation, all of this, to
(43:42):
return this thing, to reversethis thing and to show, to
become more confident that, yes,we can do this by ourselves.
We are strong enough.
We can survive, we can do this.
You know, this is like apsychological, like
psychotherapy.
This is what I think Romapeople need now to start
(44:08):
believing themselves, to starttrusting themselves and to
realize that nobody will helpyou.
That's why, by the way, so manypeople are turning to the
religion.
They say nobody is helping me,maybe God will help me.
I would go and ask God to helpme now.
But it's also part of thistherapy, this process,
(44:39):
psychological process ofrediscovering your internal
powers, because you know youbelieve in God and you know, if
you follow certain rules, if yougo to church, if you pray, if
you are good Christian or if, inthe case of Muslims, good
Muslim, maybe you can becomeagain a master of your faith
(45:01):
again.
You can, you know you can findthe solution of your problems
and this is, I think, veryimportant and that's why I
generally understand why peopleare becoming more religious in
these times.
Of course, this also happens.
It's it's shortcomings, itsnegative sides, but in general,
(45:26):
I see this as a positivedevelopment, because this is
what all people need.
Faith, it can have quitedifferent forms, you know.
It can be faith in God, it canbe faith in your own identity,
in your own nation, but this isalso a general process.
I think, among the majoritypeople, among the mainstream
(45:51):
people, who feel in extremelyvulnerable position, frustrated,
disappointed, disadvantaged,even in the non-Roma majorities,
they very often look for, youknow, they need something to
believe in, they need faith,they need spiritual, spiritual
(46:14):
revival, spiritual growth,somehow.
And different people finddifferent ways.
Of course, some people go to,you know, some people make
different people make differentchoices.
You know some people go to thefar right, some people go to the
far left, some people go to thechurch, but this is a general
(46:37):
process, in fact.
And spirituality I'm endingwith this because I know you're
also interested in spirituality,as far as I can follow your
podcast spirituality issomething that we have lost
recently and this is somethingthat we need.
(46:57):
This was part of our identityand that's why people Romani
people, gypsy people were somuch respected in the past.
Because people were afraid ofthem, because of their spiritual
powers, their supernaturalpowers, but it's a matter of
(47:21):
belief, it's a matter of faithnatural powers, but it's a
matter of belief, it's a matterof faith.
So that's why I think we canovercome this crisis, this
ideological crisis, throughrediscovering, let's say, our
own spirituality, our ownspiritual internal powers we
have.
It's nothing to do with money,nothing to do with material
(47:47):
things.
It's about spiritual things andI think the Roma community is
extremely rich spiritually andyoung Roma people could be able
to understand, to reach thisspiritual wealth of their own
(48:10):
community, to rediscover, tofind it, to understand how rich
the Roman people are.
In fact, in these times ofcrisis, roman people are not
poor.
That's my opinion.
Thank you.
Jezmina (49:08):
We really love talking about all of the Romani
strengths that we have, like ourcultural strengths, our
practices, and when Paulina andI were thinking about writing
you know, secrets of RomaniFortune Telling, we were
thinking this is something thatpeople already love and it's a
way to fall in love with theRomani culture and learn more.
And then you know Roma who wantto learn more about.
(49:30):
Maybe they didn't grow up withcertain traditions and they wish
they did, and so we just lovethis idea of how important it is
to focus on our strengths.
If you could give our culture,our community, our people, like
a little pep talk or rundown of,like some of our strengths some
of them came up already.
You know our spirituality, ourunity, but what would you say
(49:52):
our greatest strengths are?
Orhan Tahir (49:54):
Well, this is something that I'm telling the
students.
Sometimes I also lecture, youknow I also have sometimes, when
they invite me for somepresentations, some lectures.
I say this to the young peoplethere is something unique about
Roma that for so many centuries,so many people were able to
(50:16):
survive without having country,without having army, without
having holy books, withouthaving priest class, without
having anything of this thathelped others to survive in
diaspora.
So persecuted, hated, veryoften feared, isolated,
(50:40):
marginalized Roma didn'tdisappear.
And why they didn't disappear?
Because they had very strongidentity.
They had very strong, you know,very high in fact, self-esteem.
And that's very important,because imagine where you are
when you are in this situationif you don't have strong
(51:01):
identity and self-esteem, youwill disappear.
You will be either exterminatedthey will exterminate you,
assimilate you, you know butthis didn't happen.
These Roma people were able topreserve their unique character,
unique character, national,cultural character despite of
(51:23):
all of this, and nobody else,nobody else, were able to do
this.
I will give you just a fewexamples.
And you know, let's say let'sstart with the Roma slavery.
So it will be also interestingfor your American audience.
(51:44):
I think that the firsthistorical records about Roma
slavery in the Romanian lands,wallachia and Moldavia are from
the 14th century.
The first records about Africanslaves in what is today United
States it was British colony atthat time.
(52:05):
The first records aboutarriving slaves on the ships is
from 16th century, pardon, 17thcentury.
So you see the Roman slavery.
(52:29):
Why I'm saying this to you.
The Roman slavery lasted muchlonger, from 14 to the middle of
19th century.
It lasted much longer than theblack slavery in America,
african-americans of theAfrican-Americans but this is
something that people don'tstudy in schools and, unlike the
(52:51):
African-Americans Roma people,the Roma slaves were able to
preserve most of them were ableto preserve their language,
their identity, their culture.
You know something that Blackpeople, african Americans, were
not able to do.
You know there is no AfricanAmerican language today in the
United States.
Jezmina (53:11):
Hi friends, just popping in to clarify what Orhan
was saying about language.
So, because people who wereenslaved from Africa came from a
lot of different countries andplaces and spoke different
languages and dialects, thelinguistic landscape of slavery
(53:32):
is a little complicated and theway that language has been
preserved has mostly beenthrough Creole languages and
dialects.
So, for instance, gullah,geechee, haitian Creole,
louisiana Creole, and if youwant to learn more about the
(53:53):
ways that the languages of theenslaved people have become
these Creole languages languages, you can check out a couple of
websites that we liked.
Npsgov has an african americanheritage and ethnography page,
and it's through the nationalpark service actually, so
there's a really interestingpage on that.
(54:14):
And then there's also a website, wordscrcom, and the article is
what languages did slaves speak?
Or maybe enslaved people wouldbe a better way to say that.
So if you want to learn moreabout this, uh, feel free to do
a little research, but we justwanted to shout out that there
has been language preservation,but because roma all spoke, you
(54:36):
know the same language.
It was a lot easier for us topreserve our language through
slavery in this more concretelanguage, so fascinating episode
.
Orhan Tahir (54:49):
Let's get back to it.
And unlike the Jewish people Iwill make another comparison
that might be interesting forthe audience Unlike the Jewish
people who had their polybooks,their synagogues, their priestly
class, you know of rabbis,rabbis, and which helped them to
(55:14):
survive, the Romans didn't haveanything like this.
We didn't have, you know,anything like this.
And something very important,very interesting, is that
practically Romani language waspreserved only orally.
It was not preserved in awritten form, it was not written
(55:38):
language.
Well, the Jewish, practicallythe old Jewish language, was
preserved in the holy books.
It was written, but it was notoral language, it was not spoken
language.
So the spoken languages of theJewish people were Yiddish.
The main branches were Yiddishand Ladino, but Yiddish and
(56:10):
Ladino are languages with lessthan 50% of original Jewish
words.
Yiddish is considered a form ofa German language because it's
mainly mostly German inside.
Ladino is mostly Spanish.
So in their oral languages,their oral languages, they were
heavily influenced by non-Jewishlanguages, while in the case of
(56:33):
Roma, you have over 50 percentof original Indo-Aryan Romani
lexics.
You know lexic words like basis, grammatical, lexical basis.
Of course there are borrowingsfrom other languages, but it's
something unique that peopledon't, students don't learn in
(56:56):
schools.
They don't learn inuniversities.
So it's very important for, alsofor young Romani to know this
that Romani language, romaniculture and Romani identity were
preserved by our ancestors inmuch difficult and challenging
conditions.
We didn't have all these thingsthat the other had.
(57:21):
You know all these things thatthe other had.
Despite of this, our ancestorswere able to, you know, to
preserve this identity.
And if this identity were sovital, so strong, so rich, why
should we give up from it?
Why should we give up from it?
Why should not we preserve it?
(57:41):
Why should not we develop it?
It's very simple.
The problem is that a lot of,even among the Roma people, most
of them don't know theirculture, they don't know their
history, their own history.
So how can they be proud ifthey don't know all of these
facts about their own identity?
So, learning education in myopinion, the education is
(58:12):
crucial, but Roma children andRoma youths should be educated
not only in the history, cultureof the majorities, but also in
their own identity, in thehistory of their own history, in
their own culture.
Very, very important in myopinion.
(58:33):
This is something that we needto think about and to work in
this direction, as far as I cando anything.
As far as I can, I'm trying todo something in this direction,
but of course it requires awider consensus, a wider
(58:57):
mobilization around this cause,around this idea.
Paulina (59:12):
I actually think that leads us into our next question.
Really nicely.
We love the podcast Romotopiaand we're going to steal a
little question from them.
What is your vision ofRomatopia, our best possible
existence and what does the roadthere look like?
Orhan Tahir (59:36):
I think that the answer to this question requires
a wider debate among Romapeople, because I think there
should be a competition ofvisions about the future of Roma
.
There should be a widerdiscussion, and this is
(01:00:00):
something necessary.
This is something importantespecially now when, practically
, we are witnessing the end ofthe old system, the global
political system, economicsystem and so on.
(01:00:28):
New players appear on thepolitical scene.
I think now is a crucial timefor robot people also to analyze
their own past.
(01:00:48):
By the way, this year we mark80 years since the end of the
Second World War now in 2025,and eight years since the end of
the war, and it's a very goodoccasion also for Roma people to
make some kind of evaluation ofwhat has happened.
(01:01:09):
You know, what happened overthese eight years, next eight
years, because it's time, Ithink, for all people to start
thinking in a longer perspective.
You know, um, although this isnot very typical for us, but we
(01:01:34):
should learn how to, you know,think, and I will make a here an
interesting connection.
It's, it's, it's very, you know, I was.
I have always wondered aboutthis.
How was possible that r people?
You know, in the past they werepredicting the future of the
others.
You know, our ancestors werepredicting the future right
Through different methods,different ways.
So maybe now it's time for usto predict our own future.
(01:01:57):
Why not, you know, to try toforesee what awaits us in the
next 10, 20, 30, 50, 80 years.
And it's not somethingimpossible, it's not something
so difficult, because we alreadyhave a lot of information, we
have modern technologies, wehave all of these social
networks and so on.
So why not using them topredict our own future, them to
(01:02:24):
predict our own future?
So it's very difficult for meto give some kind of a clear
vision, clear formula about thefuture of normal people, but I
think okay, I hope that we areable to learn from the lessons,
to learn some lessons from thepast and to, let's say, to try
(01:02:47):
to not repeat some mistakes fromthe past.
Because I like this analogySometimes I'm using it also in
my lectures that we Roma arelike students who miss the
(01:03:09):
history class, who always is notthere in the most important
lesson for the most importantlesson, so like a dropout from
the history class, and that'swhy we repeat again.
We repeat the same class.
We cannot go to the next level.
I hope that this could change,and now we have enough many
(01:03:37):
educated people, well-educatedpeople among Roma, we have
historians, we have politicians,we have scholars and all kinds
of people, and I hope thatsomehow our collective mind, our
collective intelligence, willhelp us to create a better
(01:04:01):
future for our children.
Because this is, I think thisis what I'm concerned about.
As a father of two daughters,two wonderful daughters, I'm
concerned about the future of mychildren.
You know, when I see what'sgoing on around me and that's
why I think it's very importantto think, you know, to try at
(01:04:27):
least to try to secure a betterfuture for the next generations.
You know this is our duty myopinion as people, as human
beings, that's so beautiful.
Jezmina (01:04:40):
I love the idea of us predicting our own future, and
we're such huge fans of Jules LePen and everything that they're
doing with Roma Futurism, whichfeels like such an important
artistic movement for us toreally see ourselves in the
future.
So thank you for that.
We are shifting gears to one ofour staple questions, which is
(01:05:00):
who is your Romani crush, whichreally just means who's a Romani
person you admire and you wouldlike to spotlight or shout out
right now.
Orhan Tahir (01:05:10):
Oh, there is one very interesting person from
Spain.
His name is Helios Gómez.
He was an anarchist,participant in the Spanish Civil
War, but he was in the prison.
(01:05:31):
He was a painter, he was awriter and then he survived.
He survived the war and hewrote, by the way, at the end of
his life, some very interestingtexts about people which are
(01:06:01):
not widely known.
Um, but, uh, I, I like his.
You know his personality.
I'm not an anarchist, I don'tshare this views.
You know ideology, politicalideology, but uh, maybe, because
, um, I'm, I'm, I'm drawing, youknow drawing, since a this is
my hobby, actually, I likedrawing, painting, and also I
(01:06:27):
find his personality very, youknow, I think his life was very
interesting, very dramatical,and he really liked his people,
even in the prison.
He painted a very famousActually, he painted the walls
of his.
What was it called?
(01:06:51):
He painted inside the walls ofhis cell, prison cell with Roma
people, and it's very famous.
It's still preserved in Spain.
You can see it, you can readabout it.
I forgot the name of that.
It's something like a chapel,something called Gypsy Chapel or
(01:07:16):
something like this.
It's preserved and even in the.
You know, even moments, youknow, in his life.
When he was in the prison, he,you know he was thinking about
his people.
He was painting you know thison the walls the life of his
(01:07:37):
people.
Actually, he preserved Romapeople suffering like Jesus
Christ, this idea, he made thisassociation with the suffering
of Jesus, of Mary and the child,all of this very powerful
analogy, which is also importantand that's why maybe I find him
(01:08:01):
, you know, I find him extremelypowerful image, powerful
personality, and maybe morepeople should know about him and
learn from him.
Paulina (01:08:16):
So how can people find and support your work and what
do you have coming up on thehorizon?
Can people find and supportyour work and what do you?
Orhan Tahir (01:08:24):
have coming up on the horizon.
Well, I'm busy right now withmy PhD research and I'm very
actually I would like to contactmore people to maybe to create
(01:08:45):
some kind of academic network ofpeople from the academia,
researchers who are interestedin the topics of HOMA, paria,
cast system, the intellectualand cultural exchange between
India and Europe, and I'm veryinterested in communicating and
(01:09:07):
exchanging ideas with otherpeople working in the same field
, and this could be people fromthe academia also, people from
the field of art.
You know culture.
I would be happy if I'm able to.
You know culture.
I would be happy if I'm able to, you know, to reach more people
with similar interests, similarresearch and intellectual
(01:09:31):
interests in the future and alsoto discuss, of course, this is
as a researcher.
You know my capacity as aresearcher, but in my capacity
as a Romani person, I'm alsointerested in discussing with
other people, other Romanipeople, different possible
(01:09:53):
visions for the future, for ourfuture in Europe, and not only
in Europe but globally, because,after all, all Roma community
is a global community and Ithink we should not be focused
so much on Europe, because thereare billions of Roma outside
Europe, in the United States,canada, brazil, argentina, even
(01:10:14):
in Africa, australia and manyother places around the world.
So we should start thinking ofourselves as a truly global
community.
Like we have cousins everywhereand it's time to you know, to
discover our relatives, ourcousins, to get in touch with
them and to start, you know, amore active communication.
(01:10:40):
This, this is what I think, thisis what I see as important to
improve the communicationbetween Roma from different
countries and continents, andalso to look, of course, to
create alliances, to createpartnerships, to find new allies
(01:11:04):
among non-Roma people, becausethere are a lot of non-Roma
people who are also, you know,somehow see themselves in Roma.
Maybe they have something, somegypsy blood, I don't know, but
I also face, I also see, I alsosee many normal people who are
quite interested in in romanissue and are willing to help,
(01:11:31):
willing to give a hand and, whynot?
Creating a broader, broadercoalition for their partnership.
You know, more partnerships andconnections with people around
are, you know, based on thespiritual, spiritual connection,
spiritual power, because Ireally believe that the
(01:11:52):
alliances should be built aroundthe spiritual bonds that
connect us, not so much on, youknow, on the usual, not so much
on the usual concepts and ideas,but spirituality, the spiritual
advantages, cultural advantagesof Roma.
This is something I think thisis our most important apto.
(01:12:17):
It's not financial, it's notmaterial, it's spiritual.
Jezmina (01:12:24):
That's beautiful.
Thank you so much for coming onand speaking with us.
What's the best way for peopleto get in touch with you?
Do you prefer social media?
Do you want people to email you?
Orhan Tahir (01:12:36):
My Facebook profile has been deactivated by
Facebook administration for Idon't know.
They didn't like my posts, ohsure they've got lots of issues.
Yes, but I'm available.
I'm available at LinkedIn email, my email, and I think it's not
(01:12:59):
so difficult to contact me.
To find me on social networks.
Jezmina (01:13:05):
We'll put your LinkedIn in our show notes.
Yeah, thank you.
This was such a pleasure tospeak with you and, yeah, what a
joy to hear your thoughts.
We really appreciate your time.
Paulina (01:13:14):
Yeah, thank you for your contribution to educating
people inside and outside.
I always feel like I just gotsuper educated just now too.
It's a lot and I feel like it'sso needed, so we appreciate all
of your work.
Orhan Tahir (01:13:32):
Thank you very much .
I remain an optimist despite ofeverything.
I'm an optimist about thefuture of our people.
I also thank you for invitingme and giving me this
opportunity to talk, to reachyour audience.
Jezmina (01:13:47):
Oh, of course, we will join you in your optimism and do
some fun things in the future.
Paulina (01:13:53):
I'll try to be optimistic.
Jezmina (01:13:57):
You are in your own way .
Thank you.
Thank you, thank you everyone,bye.
Okay, bye.
Paulina (01:14:22):
Thank you for listening to Romanistan Podcast.
Jezmina (01:14:26):
You can find us on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook
at Romanistan Podcast and onTwitter at RomanistanPod, To
support us, join our Patreon forextra content or just donate to
our Ko-Fi fundraiser, ko-ficombackslash romanistan, and please
rate, review and subscribe.
(01:14:47):
It helps people find our show.
Paulina (01:14:49):
it helps us so much you can follow jez on instagram at
jasminavantila and paulina atromani holistic.
You can get our book Secrets ofRomani Fortune Telling online
or wherever books are sold.
Visit romanistanpodcastcom forevents, educational resources
(01:15:09):
and more.
Jezmina (01:15:10):
Email us at romanistanpodcast at gmailcom
for inquiries hosted by JasminaVon Tila and Paulina Stevens,
conceived of by Paulina Stevens,edited by Victor Pachas, with
music by Victor.
Pachas and artwork by ElijahBarado.
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