July 22, 2025 • 59 mins
What if your roofing company’s biggest obstacle isn’t leads, sales, or processes—but your mindset?
In this episode of the Roofing Success Podcast, Jim Ahlin sits down with Top Rep founder and renowned sales trainer Chuck Thokey to break down the 3 critical mindset shifts that separate stuck roofing companies from market-dominating powerhouses.
Chuck has worked with thousands of contractors across the U.S. and Canada, helping owners overcome limiting beliefs, restructure teams, and scale with purpose. Whether you’re stuck at $3M, $10M, or trying to build a $100M+ operation, this conversation will challenge the way you think about growth.
You’ll discover:
- Why scaling to sell almost always backfires—and what to do instead
- How belief and mindset directly drive your revenue (and your team’s performance)
- Why pricing psychology can double your margins overnight
- How to create a product and customer experience your sales team actually believes in
- The truth about AI and the future of roofing sales
If you’ve ever said “door-to-door doesn’t scale” or “we can’t raise our prices in this market,” you can’t afford to miss this episode.
Links:
https://www.instagram.com/chuckthokey/?hl=en
https://topreptraining.com/
https://www.mycoachchuck.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What if the reason your company isn't scaling isn't
your sales, your leads or yourprocess.
It's your mindset.
In this episode, we're divingdeep with Chuck Toki to explore
how growth isn't just abouthiring more reps or throwing
money at marketing.
It's about changing how youthink, lead and inspire your
team to win.
Chuck is one of the mostsought-after sales trainers in
(00:22):
the home services industry andthe founder of Top Rep.
He's worked with thousands ofroofing companies and helped
scale some of the mostsuccessful teams in the country.
Chuck doesn't just talk aboutmindset, he lives it, whether
he's helping companies 5X theirrevenue or coaching owners
through emotional roadblocks.
Chuck understands that scalingstarts in your head before it
(00:47):
hits your balance sheet.
If you've ever felt stuck at $3million, $10 million or beyond
and you're wondering what'smissing, this conversation will
change your perspective.
Let's jump in with Chuck Toki.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
(01:09):
roofing business.
Chuck Toki with TopRap how areyou man?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Good man, happy to be here once again, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I love having you One of my favorite people in the
industry, definitely one of myfavorite sales trainers out
there.
There's a lot of quotes that Iuse from you.
There's a lot of stories andanalogies that I use from you.
I remember sitting at an eventwhere you were speaking one time
years ago, taking notes, and Itook it and implemented it in
(01:40):
our digital marketing business.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Good.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Love it.
You teach sales not justroofing sales, right, or you
know um, but always enjoy it,man, always enjoy it.
We were talking.
We were talking about scalingand and I think that's what's on
a lot of contractors minds isscaling and?
And you said something really,really profound, I think that
(02:08):
you know, sometimes it's not thehow do we scale is not a lot.
A lot of times it's not theprocesses, it's not the people.
Maybe it may be, it may comedown to that owner's mindset.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Expand on that a little bit bit.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
You know we get this so often junk.
I, I want to scale this thingso we can sell.
I'm like, first and foremost,if you scale to sell, you'll
never sell.
Uh, you have to scale for allthe right reasons.
What you're going to do is isI'm going to scale this thing to
10 million, I'm going to sellit and I'm going to be rich.
That's not going to scale thisthing to 10 million, I'm going
(02:47):
to sell it and I'm going to berich.
That's not going to happen.
It won't happen.
I can promise you.
It won't happen because peoplesee what it is that you're,
you're, you're why and if you're, why is because we want to sell
.
Nobody wants to work for that.
Nobody wants to put theirlivelihood on the line because
the owner wants to sell.
That's also the reason why somany of these companies that are
(03:11):
selling, you had no idea thatthey had any plans on selling
and the biggest organizationsthat sell never had a.
They never thought they wouldsell.
Those are the, those are theorganizations that we see.
But what's behind it all ismindset, and and you could have
(03:33):
a bad mindset, I mean, when welook at the, the mindset, you
can have a mindset to sell.
You can have a mindset to grow.
Who wouldn't want to work forthe mindset to grow?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
yeah, and, and that's the, that's the path that
people don't think about.
Everyone's thinking of that endin mind, that exit, especially
with pe so heavily in the market.
But boy that you're right thatno one wants to work for what
like?
What do you?
What?
What?
What is their purpose?
(04:04):
Right, right, what's the salesteam's purpose is for you to be
a multimillionaire.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
You have the mindset to grow, it's it's everybody
wins.
If you have the mindset to sell, there's only one person that
wins and everybody else, Ipromise you, they'll lose.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
So what does you know ?
What does the mindset look like?
That, that the what is theright mindset that you're seeing
.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
So and it's.
You have mindset with owners,mindset with your management
staff and mindset inside of your, your sales staff, and you
can't just have the you know,when we come in and we help you
with that, that understanding ofwhat mindset is and how to do
it, we look at hey, I can't justcome in and show you, we need
(04:50):
to look at your sales managers,we need to look at your sales
team and look at the culture aswell as how are we going to
bring the right type of mindset?
And once you put that in place,that, because marketing and
sales, those are tools, thosedon't scale you.
You know, people talk aboutsales and that's just the sexy
(05:13):
part of the business, but that'sjust a tool.
But the mindset is, that's thegears, it's everything in inside
of this.
And so, when we look at what'sthe right kind of mindset, well,
it really depends on the owner.
And what is the purpose ofgrowth?
(05:33):
Why are we growing?
How can we get everybody on thebus?
You know there's a lot ofpeople that might be standing
outside the bus not wanting togo to school.
However, man, you know you havethat growth mindset, that that
understanding that, hey, we'reall going to win here we're all
going to move together and youknow, understanding what success
(05:53):
looks like.
We had a, an organization out ofOregon and, uh, love these,
these folks to death.
It's, it's expert roofing.
And they were really, reallystruggling.
And they saw us at a GAF eventand said, hey, I'd love to be
(06:13):
able to figure out how we couldget this guy into our business.
And so when I sat down withthem and they decided to go
ahead and move forward withcoaching, I says here's the
thing is, as I want you to seewhat success looks like based on
your business.
And so I says I need you to goout and meet with John O'Leary
(06:34):
out in Pennsylvania, literallyflying across the country to go
see what another organizationI'm not going to tell you all
this stuff that was wrong withthis organization, but you know
they.
I says I just want you to goout there.
And they did.
Him and his wife, uh, jim andAmber decided they would fly out
and meet with John O'Leary andall I wanted them to do was to
(06:56):
see a company that was just likethem.
You know, john O'Leary was inthis for 35 years and was not
really successful.
For for when we look at successuntil him and I started working
together and I showed him whatsuccess looked like and I you
know, long story short, they gota chance to see this business
(07:20):
that that was was built out of asimilar thing that they were in
, and he's like this changed myentire outlook, the way we do
business, the way we seebusiness.
And when he came back and thenwe put in that sales process, we
(07:40):
brought in the sales managerand they just opened up their
second location or going fortheir third location.
I mean, this is something thatevery time that we meet up with
them, he's not the only one intears.
I mean, I'm in tears, they'rein tears.
You have to see something likethis to really feel the emotion
of why you do what you do everyday.
(08:01):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I think that's a big thing.
If you've never seen it now,what did they see?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So he had mentioned that, cause he, they, all of
their installers, were in house,and it took several days to do
a roof two, three, four days todo a roof that should have been
done in a day, and I he says,well, how many people actually
do a roof in a day?
I'm like everybody I know know,and so at that point he had to
(08:44):
see it.
He had to see that roofingcould be done in a day or two,
depending on the size of thehouse, but you know, it was how
this was run, what you know, howthey were able to scale.
So the biggest thing, though,was that someone could actually
do a roof in a day.
That was probably one of thebiggest takeaways for them, and
(09:07):
the other thing was the team theteam that was in place and what
everybody did there at O'Leary.
So, again, once they got achance to see that, I could sit
here and talk to them, blue inthe face on here, these are all
the people we're going to put inplace, but until you understand
what these people do and whythey do it, it doesn't make any
sense.
Okay, I'm blue in the face onhere, these are all the people
we're going to put in place.
But until you understand whatthese people do and why they do
(09:28):
it, it doesn't make any sense.
And okay, I'm going to put themin place, but I don't know what
to do with them.
And all of a sudden it all cameto a head.
It's like this all makes senseand we've done this with
companies all over the UnitedStates.
We, depending on your company,we, I guarantee it because we've
worked with with thousands oforganizations across the United
(09:49):
States and Canada, and so thereis somebody that we worked with
and scaled them, and so thatwhen this other company comes in
, they're very, very similar tothat company.
Maybe it's a.
We had a organizationorganization.
They were 20 million, similarto that company.
Maybe it's a we had aorganization organization.
They were 20 million.
(10:09):
And he says we're trying to getto a hundred million.
How do we do this?
I says, well, I have just theplace I want to send you to.
I want you to see what thislooks like, because right now
you have mass chaos.
That's the problem with so manyof these organizations is they
allow sales reps and productionstaff to do it their way, as
long as you know, we don't hearanything from the homeowner.
We must be okay.
And I said before I startcoaching you, I want you to see
(10:30):
what success in that realm lookslike, what you're about to walk
through, the doors that you'reabout to walk through, it was
within two years.
Two years, they were at $170million, you know.
So, again, you know, we, thesuccess that we have, is based
on our community.
But we change their mindset,how they think, how they act.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah it's.
It is very hard, I mean it'svery hard to even envision what
it looks like, right Like,especially as you're, if you're
in that startup phase, you're,you know, kind of still working
in the business a lot, or evenif you've been around for a long
time, but you're still, you arestill the main person in your
(11:16):
business.
You don't have a business,you're more self-employed.
Right Like, it's very hard toeven understand what.
It's very hard to evenunderstand what, what goes on
over there, in that, in thatcompany, across town, across
(11:38):
state lines, across the country.
Right Like, how does a companydo that times with people who
have started to kind of hitthose roadblocks along the way
and then express to me well, itdoesn't work, or this doesn't
work, right Like, a specificthing I hear like door to door
doesn't work, it doesn't scale.
(11:59):
Like, have you heard of powerhome improvement?
Like, have you heard of?
Right?
Like, have you heard of?
Have you heard of haveimprovement?
Like, have you heard of rightLike, have you heard of?
Have you heard of?
Have you heard of?
Have you heard of, becausetheir door to door scales?
It's your skillset in door todoor that isn't scaling right,
it is, you know, from a, from aretail focus company to a storm
(12:20):
restoration company, there's youhave to see it sometimes to
really go.
Oh, you know, we got exposed toa lot of companies, like you do
across the country with roofermarketers, and we got to see the
back end and who's doing thingsright.
And you know, you, we work withone company that has
(12:41):
outrageously efficient processesthat if you say, if I describe
them, it may it will make thepeople listening feel bad about
themselves, because they are.
They were so detailed fromevery aspect of communication
with their team, with their,with their customers, with.
(13:01):
It's just a fantastic process.
That was built over time, right, many, many iterations of
building this up and buildingthis up.
But if you're sitting therewith you know your cell phone
and your, you know a couple ofcrews, you can't even imagine
(13:24):
what a process would look likein that regard or what the team
looks like in that regard.
Right, yeah, that that'sfantastic.
So do you?
So for people listening, like,how do they?
I know you have theintroductions and things like
that, but you know, I mean Ithink about it.
Just, you know we have the RSRAthat has a lot of members
(13:46):
involved.
We have but going toconferences and things like that
, you meet other people, makefriends, right, like make
friends in this industry and govisit them.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
You know people think that and we get this so so
often is, uh, I, I don't want tobe in that group coaching
because there's a competitor.
Get to know them.
You know in, uh, if you don'thave competitors there's no
excitement.
You know, in your area, if youhave the right type of
competitors, it it throws enoughdust up that brings business.
(14:20):
So you should embrace yourcompetitors and on the on the
flip side is help yourcompetitors.
I don't know how many timeswhen, and even in my own
contracting businesses where acompetitor literally down the
street is asking for help andwe'll go over there, we'll sit
down with them.
We have no problem is, if I'mgoing to compete with somebody,
(14:41):
I at least want them to knowwhat they're doing.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
It's that, yeah, such a make sure you have an
abundance mindset.
I'll tell you, chuck, ifthey're listening to this show,
they have an abundance mindset,yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And when you're out and talking inside of these
events.
I mean, networking is thebiggest thing people think of.
Oh, what speakers are going to,who cares?
And I am one of the speakers,but who cares what speakers are
going to be there?
I want to know what othercompanies are there so that I
can say I've not met them, but Isure want to.
(15:17):
You know how many of the peoplethat I do know can introduce me
to people like Eric Oberyn orGrant Rockett or, you know, zach
Willard any of these bigcompanies are like.
I'd love to figure out what youguys are doing.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
That's right, and you will find that a lot of those
guys are very open to sharing,very open.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
And they love it.
Usually they're trying tofigure business out.
They'd love to try and figureyour business out.
You know it's like a playgroundto them.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
That's right.
What's the?
There's that analogy like thebest CEOs are the ones that ask
the most questions, right, likeit's?
They're not talking aboutthemselves.
They're probably asking you andyou're like I had who was it?
Saw a?
Uh, I saw a clip of some show,uh, or an interview, and someone
was talking about they actuallyhad dinner with warren buffett
(16:11):
one time and warren buffettspent the whole time asking him
questions, yeah, and he's like,no, no, I want to ask you
questions.
You know, like the smartest guyin the room is the one asking
the questions, right, and Ithink there is something to the
(16:34):
belief For me early on.
We have a friend, jimmy Nichols,who had a marketing agency.
We joined a mastermind groupback in I think it was 2019.
And he had just hit some biglevels in his agency and it was
like, oh, that's possible, likethat's possible.
(16:58):
Yeah, where do you go frommindset, now that you believe it
, now that you see, see, man,that's what we can really?
I really truly feel like we canaccomplish this.
Where do you go from there?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
well, you mentioned belief.
Um, and it's like affirmations.
Here's the thing, here's thetruth about affirmation.
Affirmations do you absolutelyno good what?
Until you decide that you'regoing to believe the
affirmations?
Affirmations, do you absolutelyno good?
What?
Until you decide that you'regoing to believe the
affirmations?
When somebody says I'm thegreatest salesman ever, do you
(17:33):
really believe that?
You know, and so is that reallygoing to help you?
As you telling yourself you'rethe best salesman ever?
Yeah, so, but what happens when?
When we look at belief, sobelief, your belief, sales reps,
the managers and the owners.
Your belief drives yourbehavior.
(17:53):
So, if you believe success isunlikely, you're going to show
up small, you're going to avoidrejection and you're going to
hesitate to lead.
So we need to understand whatthat, what that looks like.
But if you believe that it isinevitable, you're going to take
bold action, you're going toattract better opportunities and
(18:15):
then you're going to becomeunstoppable.
And when people look at it, like, well, that's cute that you say
that, chuck, that's what Ibelieve and that's what I've
done.
Um, whether it's, you know,being an able Mr Roof and
working with a large team tomake it, at that time, the
largest roofing company inAmerica.
It's not there now, but it was,and you know just understanding
(18:40):
how big we needed to be.
And then you know getting intocoaching and making Top Rep what
it is today.
I mean you know getting intocoaching and and making top rep
what it is today.
I mean I had to understandwhere my beliefs were and I knew
that that success wasinevitable.
So again, it's all withinbelief.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Well, the way I say, if you have faith in the outcome
, you'll execute right.
So that's all you need isenough faith in that outcome,
even if you like, if you'resaying I'm the greatest
salesperson in the world and youdon't believe it, that's true.
But if you have faith that ifyou continue to get reps in
every day, you'll get there,you'll go and put the reps in
(19:19):
every day, right.
But I think if you don'tbelieve that, if you don't have
faith that it's going to comeout of the other side and that's
where I think it's impactful.
Like the company in Oregon thattraveled across the country
they had, they had nothing to befaithful of right Like they did
.
They couldn't.
But once they saw it and metthe people there and had
(19:41):
conversations, they were wow.
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But once they saw it and metthe people there and had
conversations, they were wow,this is a true possibility.
(20:48):
Yes, it's a powerful, powerfulthing.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Um we have another real quick story.
We had another organization inColumbus Ohio and he's a
franchisee and he came to mewondering if maybe he should go
work for somebody else or goback into a different trade.
And I, I I'm right here inDayton Ohio.
(21:13):
So I was like, hey, you knowwhat I want to.
I want to come out and take alook at what you've got, and it
didn't take me long at all.
I says, look, you know, for youI'm going to make a suggestion,
and the suggestion is going tobe hard to take.
And I says I think you justneed to fire.
He's like fire who?
I says all of them, becauseinside of his organization and I
(21:35):
will tell you that's the veryfirst organization I ever told
an owner fire everybody.
That's the only time I've eversaid this, but it was inevitable
that they were all takingadvantage of him.
He knew numbers inside and out,but how to run an organization
(21:55):
he just wasn't quite there yetand so he did exactly what I
asked him to do.
We brought in somebody that wasreally made up any of his
weaknesses and just so you know,any owner out there and every
owner out there has weaknesses,and whether you're a good
business owner and you justdon't know how to sell or market
(22:17):
or maybe you're not a sell butyou suck at running a business
go out and find somebody, and itdoesn't mean you have to
partner with them, but bringthem in to do the things that
you're not good at.
And so he is uh, he was namedfranchise of the year last year.
He's, uh, about to startanother location, um, but again,
(22:38):
they're the fastest growing uhfranchise inside of that, inside
that, the entire franchise.
So I mean it is it's a limitingbelief, and so you have to
identify those limiting beliefs.
You have to challenge themruthlessly and then replace them
with empowering thoughts andthen reinforce that through
(23:01):
action and repetition.
And that's what's tough.
It's tough to challenge yourlimiting beliefs as ruthlessly
as you need to, and some ofthese you really need to pay
attention to what yourenvironment is.
(23:22):
I'm sure that Jim, you've heardof you're the average of your
five closest friends, orsomething like that, and I can't
tell you how important that is.
So you look at these businessowners and then ask them who do
you hang out with?
And these other business ownersthat they hang out with are
right in line with them.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
It is, and and they're all at the at the table
talking about how they all can'tgrow, and it's just not
possible, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Is that.
I will tell you, if they had abunch of three and $4 million
businesses that you knowsurrounded them, they would get
really tired about hearing about.
You know, woe is me and I'm notsaying that all three and $4
million businesses do this, butthose of those businesses that
are stagnant and not moving pastthere most of them are they're
(24:14):
trying to figure out like, ohman, I can't get leads at.
You know, they're the same onesthat just won't do the
follow-up.
Yeah, that's right, they liketo complain about it.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
It's kind of funny.
We had some stats that wepulled, some data that we pulled
from lead generation that wedid with our clients, and 40% of
all leads were unanswered.
Yeah, it's 40 percent.
They left almost nearly half ofthe opportunity on the table.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
It makes no sense.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
It just makes no sense.
But that's so.
I've had a couple of goodconversations with this.
Our friend John Brose and wehad a great conversation around
this and for around day 30, day41 thrive.
And Jonathan Cronston I had onrecently who um wrote the
billion dollar bullseye.
He was the president of Kajabi,which is a very, very large uh
(25:14):
marketing software platform, andhe some of your thoughts on
this.
I love the way that Jonathan isJ Cron put these things in play
or kind of in theory.
He has seven principles andpeople's.
The last and the first thingswere more around, you know,
(25:36):
around building a product and anexperience for your customers
that's exceptional.
Then you can focus on yourmarketing, because then you can.
Because sales and marketingwill show you the holes in your
business real quick, I guarantee, chuck, you know you go out to
one of your events.
(25:57):
There's some good sales repsthere.
If you're a bad business andyou hire those sales reps and
you can't produce, if you're abad business and you hire those
sales reps and you can't produce, they're not going to sell.
Those sales reps become they'renot sold people anymore.
Right?
Your sales people will hesitateto make a sale if they feel
(26:21):
they're going to get a call fromthe homeowner?
Yes, right.
So the working on that customerexperience and getting really
focused on that customerexperience and your processes,
your product and I'm not sayingspend your life doing this and
then go hire salespeople,because I also believe that
iteration is the way right.
(26:41):
So, without having a customer,you don't know how good or bad
your processes are.
You have to run people throughright, but you have to learn
(27:09):
along the way that customerexperience built out and your
salespeople now are, are, arereally confident that you are
the best option for their, forthe people that they're speaking
to.
Magically, close rates will getbetter, right.
Magically, your marketing getsbetter.
Magically, your marketing getsbetter.
Magically, you attract peopleto work for you that are better.
(27:29):
It's pretty magical.
What's your experience aroundthis?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Well, there is a saying out there that is untrue
and that is that people buy frompeople they know like and trust
.
That is untrue.
People buy from people theyknow like and trust.
That is untrue.
And here's the truth behind itis people buy from people they
trust and believe.
Well, if you have a sales repthat doesn't even believe in
their product, that they're justthere to try to sell it, to get
a paycheck and run because theyknow that they wouldn't even
(28:00):
put this product on their houseor have these installers
installed, you know, you know,install anything on their homes,
let alone a roof, again it'sgoing to come out, the facial
expressions, the way that thetonality comes across.
I mean that homeowner, they maynot know exactly what's wrong,
(28:22):
but they know something's wrong.
Something did not adding up.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Definitely.
It's crazy how we don't thinkabout this.
How many companies do you seethat try to just throw sales
reps at the process or at theproblem?
They have a revenue problem.
That's.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
All we need is more sales reps I'll say probably
about 80, 85 percent will dothis.
Yeah, it's crazy.
You know, money, money is thecure for everything.
Right?
You know sales cures everything.
And I'm like no, and I'm asales guy and I'm going to tell
you, no, that's not the problem,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
So what's the solution for those guys that are
trying to just throwsalespeople at the problem?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
They need to look at, just like you mentioned.
They need to look at what it isthat they're, what experience,
what, what product, everythingthat they're providing to a
homeowner, what's the protection?
You know everybody's like.
Well, we need to lower ourprice, we need to to cheapen our
products.
We can lower our price like whywould you do this?
I would raise the price of myquality product enough that I
(29:41):
can sell a certain amount andmake more than those people that
are out selling.
They might be out selling 50,60%, but they're selling it at
so much less that they have tokeep selling just to keep food
on the table.
When you know a lot of ourclients, you know they're
(30:01):
selling way up here and, yeah,they may be closing at 45, 50%,
uh, instead of the 50 to 60%,but their profit is so much more
.
We had a, a very large clientdown South and they're like
Chuck, we were trying to figurethis out, our, uh, our job size
went down, uh, leads kind oflightened up and uh, we're also
(30:25):
doing a lot more repairs than wehave.
And I says well, what do youthink the solution?
I knew what the solution was,but I asked him what do you
think the solution is he goes.
I really don't know.
What do we?
You know?
Do we push our sales repsharder?
And I'm like, well, I mean youshould train them a little bit
more.
But what you need to do israise the pricing enough that
the profit people look atrevenue.
(30:47):
Oh, my gosh, my revenue isgoing down.
Well, how do you keep theprofit from going down?
Cause I can care less about therevenue.
How do I?
What do I need to do so that myprofit doesn't go down?
And uh, that's one reason why Ido like, uh, like service.
When it comes to roofing, I dolike service.
If you do it right, it's veryprofitable.
(31:09):
And you know you're the onestanding in front of the
homeowner.
Very seldomly does a homeownerget three bids for, well, I need
a new pipe boot.
I have sold more $2,500 pipeboots than I care to admit,
because that's our lowest,that's our minimum, and if
that's all they need now, I'mgoing to do a full roof tune-up
(31:30):
because I feel bad.
That's right.
You know I'm going to dowhatever I can, but that's my
minimum is $2,500.
And so I'm also there toperform a service and to sell a
job.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
And that goes back to mindset, though, too Like a
company that I spoke with many,many years ago called in about
marketing services and and theywere in a smaller market, not a
not I'll even say more of asmall town 50, I'll even say
(32:06):
more of a small town 50, 80,000person kind of area, and and he
was like man, it was like himand two other guys in the market
for a long time, and they, theyalmost set their price.
They you know what I mean Likewe're, we're all like right
around here, and one of the bignames came to town and was
double, double and ate them.
(32:30):
A lot was eating them alive,yeah, and this guy was blown
away.
He couldn't believe that theywere selling price per square
than he was, and they and andpeople, people were paying it.
What's going on here?
That's another mindset shift.
(32:52):
What do you, how, how do youhave that conversation with an
owner about the mindset of price?
Because I truly believe thatthat's like that's, that's
something that we don't look at.
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And then there's another thingthat I think we don't.
(34:00):
I believe a lot of times wearbitrarily set our pricing.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, we had a concrete coating company out of
Chicago and he was frustrated.
He says, man, these concretecoating companies that just sell
for four and $5 a square footthat you know.
We just can't compete with them.
I'm like, oh yeah, you can.
He goes how do we compete withthem?
I says higher pricing.
So I asked him.
I says I want you to raise yourpricing to $10 per square foot.
(34:29):
And he stared at me.
He goes we'd go out of business.
I said you might be shocked.
And I says now, don't just raiseyour prices and start running
out the door.
I says let me work with yoursales team.
I just need an hour with them.
And so we got in with the salesteam, we let them know what we
were going to do and even thesales team was like all right.
(34:50):
And I says here, here's thedeal that I'm going to make you.
I says I just want you to dothis for a week.
I just want you to do it for aweek.
If it doesn't work in the nextweek, we'll train you to do
whatever you want to do.
And uh, so he calls me up.
It wasn't even a week, it onlyabout three days.
(35:13):
He says we haven't missed adeal yet and we've never done
that.
He says I don't understand.
We, we double our price andthis is what now.
Granted, we put in a lot morevalue and protection and all
that.
But he says, I don't understand.
I says here's the thing.
His name was Bill.
I says here's the thing, bill,is that when you're way up here
and you give a price andeverybody else is way down here,
(35:35):
then what's wrong with them?
There has to be something wrong.
You know, when you go out andbuy something and there is
something else sitting next toit and it's so much higher price
, which one do you buy it?
He smiles, he goes I'm gonnabuy the higher price one that's
his that fight lower pricingwith higher prices.
Yeah it's.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
It's a crazy thing to think about, but it it it
really works.
Now you did mention you'rebuilding in the value of that
price.
You can't at the same time toraise the price there has.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
you did mention, you're building in the value of
that price at the same time.
You can't just raise the price.
There has to be somethingyou're going to put in, and
sometimes it's protection, somesort of warranty, a worry-free
guarantee, any of that type ofstuff that we show you how to do
during our coaching.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yeah, and that's probably something you'd do
anyway.
Yeah, and that's probablysomething you'd do anyway.
Yeah, I talked to contract.
I've been preaching this foryears, man, I'm like you don't
have a lifetime workmanship 12,year 15, year 23,.
If it was your fault youwouldn't fix it.
(36:47):
Oh, I'd fix it if it was myfault.
Would it be your fault at thatpoint in time?
Probably not Right.
But what is the?
How does the homeowner feelabout that?
Yes, wow, really.
This guy, well, these othercompanies are saying five years.
You're telling me lifetime andwhat they mean in that five
(37:08):
years is like.
Because you know, I think thatmost, I think that most
contractors are trying to do thebright thing right, the ones on
the news you hear all the time.
It gets a little filtered thatway.
But but I truly believe I Italk to a lot of people.
I'm sure you do too man there'sa lot of good people trying to
do the right thing, and theywould do the right thing at
(37:31):
every point in the way.
So why not express it, andexpress it in a way that allows
you to be in business 23 yearsfrom now?
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Right, you mentioned something big there.
I was in a big, big bathfranchise and I was sitting down
with the owner and one of theproduction managers comes in.
He says hey, we've got thiscustomer.
It's right outside of ourwarranty time.
What do you want me to do?
And he says fix it.
(38:01):
He goes, but it's outside ofour warranty time.
He goes, it's got my name on itand he says fix it.
He goes, but it's outside ofour warranty time.
He goes, it's got my name on it.
Yeah, he says fix it.
And the guy left.
I'm like so let me ask you, Idon't care if it's another 20
years down the road.
What we do is I'm going to fixit.
I'm like then take advantage ofthat, stop this 10 year
warranty crap.
Express it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, it's a the.
There is a pricing psychology.
I don't know.
Do you ever coach on on likemultiple options, good, better,
best kind of style of pricing?
We get deeper, let's, let's gointo that a little bit.
If it's, if it's good, better,best, where does the middle go
and why?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
so you know, like your, your middle option is
typically the option that youwill sell the most, and so
that's the one that that youwant to have priced correctly.
Now, you're bigger, you're best.
What you do with that is youset the bar.
That's where you set thestandard when you're giving
(39:08):
price.
That's why we call it best,better, good, not good.
Better, best, better, good,okay, yeah, and there's two ways
of thinking about this.
So if you're going to, ifyou're going to give the price
in person, it's got to be best,better, good, and so I'm going
to set the price with that.
And then I'm going to jump overto the good and I'm going to
trash all the Chuck and thetrucks.
(39:29):
Okay, bob and Mary, this is howwe compete with all the
contractors.
You know the Chuck and thetrucks, vincent of vans, you
know Dale from jail, you knowall those guys.
You know that's how we competewith them.
And uh, but then what we foundwith a lot of the research that
we've done, is everybody wantsthe durability and protection of
the best, but they want it forthe financial comfort of the
(39:53):
good.
Thus the better was born, andso we make, and we actually
hired a lady that does a lot ofthis stuff for Kohl's.
We paid her stupid money totell us what we already know,
but we raised the price of thebest to really bring it up here.
I mean, knock them out of theirseats.
And then what we did with thegood was we put it within $500
(40:18):
of the better, and everybodythat looks is like well, this is
just a no brainer, I know.
Well, yeah, it's designed thatway.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
It's designed that way.
So this is where I was goingand I thought this would be good
is like designing your pricingright.
Like I mentioned before, Ithink a lot of times we
arbitrarily price our products,and not only.
There's a couple of things thatyou could do there price our
products and not only.
There's a couple of things thatyou could do there.
Like.
(40:47):
The first thing is you're notactually looking at your numbers
when you're price.
When you're building out yourpricing right, you're not
actually building in what yourmarketing budget will be, what
your recruiting budget is, whatyour, what your, what your, what
your.
Yeah, yeah, you're kind of well, well, joe down the streets at
this and Bob over there is atthis and Sally's at that.
(41:08):
So we're going to kind of we'regoing to be in there somewhere,
but now the?
So the first thing I think alot of contractors should do is
go back and price price based onreal numbers and what they're
trying to achieve in theirbusiness, on the profit that
they're trying to make and allof that and then using sale
(41:29):
pricing psychology, like you'retalking about, to actually
achieve that more often in there, in the, in the yeses is is
fantastic, like that's mygoodness.
If, if you do that, I promiseyou, you're going to win, my
goodness if you do that, Ipromise you're going to win.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
We call this price engineering, but it does several
things here.
It's one thing to kind of pushthem into that middle package,
but for the business, because onthe good you might do felt
paper and on the better you dosynthetic, and on the best you
do breathable synthetic Well, Iwant to do the same material as
(42:08):
often as possible.
I might not be able to do thesame colors, but if I have all
this synthetic at some point Icould probably do a whole house
of synthetic underlayment withthe, the leftovers from the last
10 jobs.
So again you're now you're agood steward with your money and
again, if you're always doingthat same, 80% of the time
(42:28):
you're doing that same system,you can actually save a lot of
money.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, inventory management there I know some
great contractors who've gottenreally good at that and then
they have the ability to startto buy in bulk and they get to
really create some competitiveadvantages in their marketplace
where, like I know, I know acouple of contractors now that
(42:55):
if they want the job, they getit and they'll be profitable
because they've really dialedthat, that in and they they know
what they have in theirinventory and they know what
they can do with it and still beprofitable and that's very,
very powerful.
It's very, very powerful.
Yes, I think the market'schanging on us.
(43:18):
Chuck, what are you seeing outthere?
I know, from a digitalmarketing perspective, search
volumes down, there's less callscoming in, there's more people
that Google went to zero, a lotof zero click searches.
People are talking in the chatGPT instead of going to Google
(43:49):
from a marketing standpoint.
But I feel like, are you havingeconomic or just conversations
of people who are saying youknow, it's just not as good as
last year?
Speaker 2 (43:54):
It's.
The market is changing and youcan take, because there's a lot
of companies out there that aredominating, and they'll tell you
that they are still havingrecord months that aren't in and
they're not in the storm areas,but they're still having record
months.
We have a client in Syracuse,new York, that has tripled his
(44:15):
business yet again.
I mean, pes are chasing himdown because he's this guy's
good um and I'm fighting myselffrom saying the name but very,
very good at what he does.
And again, you know it's hismindset, it's the way he thinks,
it's the way he goes to market,it's the way that he trains his
(44:36):
sales staff and his productioncrews.
That's why they're doing aswell.
But then there are a lot oforganizations that are what we
like to call the red oceanorganizations, which, if you
look at blue ocean, red ocean,you know the red ocean
organizations.
They're playing in thebloodbath, they're the ones that
(44:56):
are on social media and they'rejust waiting for someone to
come up with a great idea.
Well, just so you know, yourcompetitor just saw that too,
and they're out there doing thedigital door knocking or
whatever the shiny nickel is,and everybody's running towards
it.
This is why I love DavidCarroll so much because the one
(45:17):
thing that not too many peopleare running towards is mail, and
that's why David Carroll ismaking millionaires out of
roofers and many other trades.
But these folks are like, hey,if everybody else is running
digital, I'm going to put myfoot in the ring over there, but
I'm going to put a lot of moneyin this because I know nobody
(45:38):
is outside of a few windowcompanies.
That you might compete with Mailis just weird.
You might compete with mail isjust weird.
If you've looked at the mailthat's coming to your house, how
many pieces of mail are yougetting for roofing, siding?
Well, windows you do.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
But windows yeah, um you know, gutters I don't you
don't?
it's very strange and and it'slike that, that's a.
I.
I love a good marketing mix.
I'm the.
I love omnipresence, I lovebeing everywhere and in in their
mailbox, like everywhere, thatyou can be at the same time,
(46:14):
because when one has a littledip, you have other poles in the
water, right, like there's um,and I think that, uh, you know,
I, I know some people in theremodeling industry too, and I'm
sure you do, and it's like, man, that the COVID money's gone.
You know, like there's a,there's a lot of that that's
(46:36):
gone away.
And there's that old analogy ofall time the tide lifts all
boats Right, and now the tide iscoming out a little bit, and so
I've had conversations withmany companies recently who they
rode the tide and they got.
(46:58):
They didn't execute, as if itwas.
They didn't know that it was,that they were in high tide,
right, right, yeah, and so theyexecuted that's the way they
learned how to do business.
Yeah, and now, as things aremoving away, I know you're
(47:20):
enjoying the episode, but let'sgive a shout out to another one
of our sponsors.
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Speaker 1 (47:52):
That's the way they learned how to do business, yeah
, and now, as things are movingaway, they don't understand how
to do business in a more scarcerenvironment.
What would be your advice tothose types of companies?
(48:12):
So here's the again we're goingto go back to COVID.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Everybody got lazy in .
COVID.
I love the organizations.
They're like, oh man, we wentfrom zero to 10 million.
Yeah, so did everybody else,you know.
And but now that we're pastcoven, like you said, we're past
the co-good money, um, you knowthe uh we, we go back to bc and
(48:38):
people are like, oh, beforechrist, like no, before covet.
You know, we actually had tosell before covet came along.
We actually had to learn how tosell and even the sales based
organizations have lost theirminds.
And now they're like oh, chuck,I don't know how to get back to
this, I don't know what.
And it's like it's not as hardas you think, but the way that
you do it is either going tosink you or make you very, very
(49:02):
wealthy.
You know, just like anybodyelse will tell you, when things
get tough, that's whenmillionaires are made, because
the majority of people will sinkbecause they're not prepared
and they don't know.
And but yet those folks thatare either willing to reach out
and grab the proper help and beshown a better way of doing
(49:24):
certain things, or that they'rejust smarter and they remember
what it was like before COVID,those are the people that are
going to make it very, very well.
And again.
We see these every day.
We see the owners that have theright mindset and they're
either willing to go out and getthe help that they need or they
(49:45):
already know.
They already know how this isgoing to work and they're just
smart people.
But then there's those otherfolks that you know.
They don't know where to go,they don't know where to turn
and they don't have the rightmindset.
All of a sudden, it's woe.
Is me, oh my gosh.
The economy, oh my gosh.
The tariffs, oh my God.
Like that doesn't have anythingto do with anything.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
No, but it's.
You know both, both you and Iwere in the mortgage business.
You know, back in the back inthe heyday, right, and we
watched it go up and down.
That was one of my favoritelessons in life, looking back,
because it was a.
It was the tide, right, like Iboy, it was it.
(50:26):
It was a tide that I rode, andnow I know when the tide is
rising I could see it a littlebetter, right Like I realize
where I'm at.
So, you know, get better isreally the.
You know, get better, adjustyour pricing, get more
(50:46):
profitable.
Some of the other parts of theconversation that we have are
really applicable to that right,like, if you're not, if you're
running thin margins, oh, you'regoing to have some trouble,
right?
Speaker 2 (50:59):
So we have to train our sales reps on how to have
the sales conversation too.
You know, these sales reps areso they.
They just don't know they.
So many of these organizationsare going out and say, hey, I
just need somebody that knowshow to get on a roof, do an
inspection, come down and give aprice.
Yeah, I can hire somebody for15 an hour to do that.
(51:21):
I don't need a sales rep forthat, that's right.
I need a sales rep for isunderstanding how to give price
and then how to talk to thehomeowners so that we can fix
their problems.
And the problem is not theirroof, their problem is trying to
figure out who to use and howcan I afford it.
So, but they most sales repswon't go beyond the price.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
No, what do you think ?
How do you feel that, the sale,that the kind of the AI
technology?
I know you I don't know if youstill do, but you were working a
lot with Rilla and things likethat where you know some of the
AI focused technology, whetherthrough something like a Rilla
(52:07):
or Ciro or one of those type ofapplications, or just in general
.
How do you feel?
Where do you what, what?
What does Chuck see the futurearound around this technology
and the sales process?
Speaker 2 (52:23):
So we do work very closely with Rilla and because
of our partnership we get theopportunity to see the trends.
We get the opportunity to seewhat works and what was nothing
more than a myth.
I can I can cover that all daylong, but the where that
technology is going, it's goingto be part of your CRM.
(52:47):
Just wait for it to happen.
When your sales rep because weused to yell and scream
ourselves put your notes in thesystem, put your notes in the
system anymore, you don't haveto really do it for you.
They will break everything thathappened in that house down and
put it into your, your CRM foryou.
You know, I will say that AIcurrently is not going to take
(53:08):
over sales.
It's not going to.
People still want to deal withpeople.
Whether you want to believethat or not, they still want to
deal with people.
But how AI?
I mean I could.
It seems like every podcastright now.
We were talking about AI andwhat it's doing, what it can do
for you.
You know, one of the thingsthat you're going to see at top
(53:32):
rep is an organization that willcompletely moneyball your
organization, and I do mean yourmarketing, your sales and your
production.
It literally tells you how tooperate, to grow.
And when I, when I wasintroduced to it, I was
flabbergasted.
I, okay, I knew it was coming,but I didn't know it was here
(53:54):
and uh, so I mean it's, it'sgrowing, ai is growing fast
inside of the, the industry.
Um, and this is whydiversification is not bad.
I mean, the biggest industrythat's going to be taken on not
over, but taken on by AI isroofing, because you can do
(54:14):
everything from a satellite.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
I mean years ago, early on in my podcast I had a
group on who was, who wasworking off of this, off of that
type of imaging and doingdamage detection and different
things and the drone flyovers.
I know Eagle View hasapplications and there's
multiple applications in themarketplace now for for for AI.
You know from that, but now youknow from a satellite image now
as now as the AI gets better.
My goodness, to kind ofsummarize all that, what does a
(54:57):
company do?
Because I heard it but I'm notgoing to summarize it for you.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
So I can cover this in different ways and I don't
know if this is what you'rethinking of but ways that you
combat, like, the companies thatare going to lose are the
companies that are going to gointo the fight with a
manufacturer.
What I mean by this is I've gotGIF, I've got Owens Corning, so
(55:24):
does everybody else, but whenyou go into this, this fight, to
say our, our, uh techs installbetter, we protect it better, we
, you know, and so the, whatthey need to put forward to the
customer is your organization.
How can your organizationprovide better service than
(55:47):
everybody else that has the sameproducts?
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Yeah, it's a differentiation in brand,
essentially right, adifferentiation in value in your
marketing messaging, in yoursales messaging, in your sales
messaging helping that the sameway that that you can increase
your pricing and have a valueconversation.
(56:12):
You're, it's going to be likewhat?
What I was hearing was that'sgoing to be the impactful thing,
moving forward.
Yeah, and it, it, it's awesome,what?
Okay, so we talked about a lot.
We started off, started offwith like you know, really you
have to have the mindset ofscaling and and it.
You know, for a contractor outthere, what you know, where do
(56:37):
they?
You know, I know, coaching iswhere you start and there
there's a lot of great resources, but just individual to
individual, what can they do tosurvive and thrive and actually
scale to where they want to taketheir business.
Speaker 2 (56:59):
So, first and foremost, they need to know
their numbers, and I don't carehow big or small these
organizations are, we ask themabout you know, okay, where do
you want to go, what, what isyour next move, and do you know
what the numbers look like to dothat?
And I'll tell you, many of themdon't know.
They've never actually takenthe time to see what, how many
(57:21):
jobs that takes, and how do youbreak that down based on your
bell curve?
That's, that's one of the firstthings.
The other thing is is take alook at your product.
You mentioned it.
Take a look at your product,your service and the experience
that you provide.
Well, would you want to sell it?
Because, if not, maybe you needto take a look at it and start
to change it so that your teamactually feels comfortable
(57:43):
providing it and selling it.
You know, that's one of thethings that we just got done,
talking about and then themindset part of this is go out
and find somebody that has beenthere and that is willing to
bring you in and show you, andwhat you're going to find is
somebody with processes,procedures, that they are
(58:05):
unnegotiable.
You're going to find a lot ofpeople out there with processes
and procedures.
See the ones that are growing.
They do not negotiate theirprocess.
Well, bobby doesn't like tosell like that, then bobby needs
to go find another job, youknow.
Uh, well, tammy, you knowthat's just not her, that's not
her thing, and so we had to kindof move her position in a way.
(58:28):
Tammy needs to go find anotherjob.
You know your processes, yourprocedures.
You do not negotiate it,because these are your values,
your core values.
This is the way that you'regoing to operate your business,
and the moment that you decidethat you're going to go
differently, it's not going togo well, it's not going to go
well, chuck.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
It's always a pleasure man.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning into theRoofing Success Podcast.
For more valuable content,visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom
While there, check out oursponsors for exclusive offers,
shop for merchandise and sign upfor our newsletter for industry
updates and tips.
Also join the Roofing SuccessFacebook group to connect with
(59:10):
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If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, like, share
and leave a comment.
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insights.
The website link is in thedescription.
Thanks for listening.
What if the reason your company isn't scaling isn't
your sales, your leads or yourprocess.
It's your mindset.
In this episode, we're divingdeep with Chuck Toki to explore
how growth isn't just abouthiring more reps or throwing
money at marketing.
It's about changing how youthink, lead and inspire your
team to win.
Chuck is one of the mostsought-after sales trainers in
(00:22):
the home services industry andthe founder of Top Rep.
He's worked with thousands ofroofing companies and helped
scale some of the mostsuccessful teams in the country.
Chuck doesn't just talk aboutmindset, he lives it, whether
he's helping companies 5X theirrevenue or coaching owners
through emotional roadblocks.
Chuck understands that scalingstarts in your head before it
(00:47):
hits your balance sheet.
If you've ever felt stuck at $3million, $10 million or beyond
and you're wondering what'smissing, this conversation will
change your perspective.
Let's jump in with Chuck Toki.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
(01:09):
roofing business.
Chuck Toki with TopRap how areyou man?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Good man, happy to be here once again, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I love having you One of my favorite people in the
industry, definitely one of myfavorite sales trainers out
there.
There's a lot of quotes that Iuse from you.
There's a lot of stories andanalogies that I use from you.
I remember sitting at an eventwhere you were speaking one time
years ago, taking notes, and Itook it and implemented it in
(01:40):
our digital marketing business.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Good.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Love it.
You teach sales not justroofing sales, right, or you
know um, but always enjoy it,man, always enjoy it.
We were talking.
We were talking about scalingand and I think that's what's on
a lot of contractors minds isscaling and?
And you said something really,really profound, I think that
(02:08):
you know, sometimes it's not thehow do we scale is not a lot.
A lot of times it's not theprocesses, it's not the people.
Maybe it may be, it may comedown to that owner's mindset.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Expand on that a little bit bit.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
You know we get this so often junk.
I, I want to scale this thingso we can sell.
I'm like, first and foremost,if you scale to sell, you'll
never sell.
Uh, you have to scale for allthe right reasons.
What you're going to do is isI'm going to scale this thing to
10 million, I'm going to sellit and I'm going to be rich.
That's not going to scale thisthing to 10 million, I'm going
(02:47):
to sell it and I'm going to berich.
That's not going to happen.
It won't happen.
I can promise you.
It won't happen because peoplesee what it is that you're,
you're, you're why and if you're, why is because we want to sell
.
Nobody wants to work for that.
Nobody wants to put theirlivelihood on the line because
the owner wants to sell.
That's also the reason why somany of these companies that are
(03:11):
selling, you had no idea thatthey had any plans on selling
and the biggest organizationsthat sell never had a.
They never thought they wouldsell.
Those are the, those are theorganizations that we see.
But what's behind it all ismindset, and and you could have
(03:33):
a bad mindset, I mean, when welook at the, the mindset, you
can have a mindset to sell.
You can have a mindset to grow.
Who wouldn't want to work forthe mindset to grow?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
yeah, and, and that's the, that's the path that
people don't think about.
Everyone's thinking of that endin mind, that exit, especially
with pe so heavily in the market.
But boy that you're right thatno one wants to work for what
like?
What do you?
What?
What?
What is their purpose?
(04:04):
Right, right, what's the salesteam's purpose is for you to be
a multimillionaire.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
You have the mindset to grow, it's it's everybody
wins.
If you have the mindset to sell, there's only one person that
wins and everybody else, Ipromise you, they'll lose.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
So what does you know ?
What does the mindset look like?
That, that the what is theright mindset that you're seeing
.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
So and it's.
You have mindset with owners,mindset with your management
staff and mindset inside of your, your sales staff, and you
can't just have the you know,when we come in and we help you
with that, that understanding ofwhat mindset is and how to do
it, we look at hey, I can't justcome in and show you, we need
(04:50):
to look at your sales managers,we need to look at your sales
team and look at the culture aswell as how are we going to
bring the right type of mindset?
And once you put that in place,that, because marketing and
sales, those are tools, thosedon't scale you.
You know, people talk aboutsales and that's just the sexy
(05:13):
part of the business, but that'sjust a tool.
But the mindset is, that's thegears, it's everything in inside
of this.
And so, when we look at what'sthe right kind of mindset, well,
it really depends on the owner.
And what is the purpose ofgrowth?
(05:33):
Why are we growing?
How can we get everybody on thebus?
You know there's a lot ofpeople that might be standing
outside the bus not wanting togo to school.
However, man, you know you havethat growth mindset, that that
understanding that, hey, we'reall going to win here we're all
going to move together and youknow, understanding what success
(05:53):
looks like.
We had a, an organization out ofOregon and, uh, love these,
these folks to death.
It's, it's expert roofing.
And they were really, reallystruggling.
And they saw us at a GAF eventand said, hey, I'd love to be
(06:13):
able to figure out how we couldget this guy into our business.
And so when I sat down withthem and they decided to go
ahead and move forward withcoaching, I says here's the
thing is, as I want you to seewhat success looks like based on
your business.
And so I says I need you to goout and meet with John O'Leary
(06:34):
out in Pennsylvania, literallyflying across the country to go
see what another organizationI'm not going to tell you all
this stuff that was wrong withthis organization, but you know
they.
I says I just want you to goout there.
And they did.
Him and his wife, uh, jim andAmber decided they would fly out
and meet with John O'Leary andall I wanted them to do was to
(06:56):
see a company that was just likethem.
You know, john O'Leary was inthis for 35 years and was not
really successful.
For for when we look at successuntil him and I started working
together and I showed him whatsuccess looked like and I you
know, long story short, they gota chance to see this business
(07:20):
that that was was built out of asimilar thing that they were in
, and he's like this changed myentire outlook, the way we do
business, the way we seebusiness.
And when he came back and thenwe put in that sales process, we
(07:40):
brought in the sales managerand they just opened up their
second location or going fortheir third location.
I mean, this is something thatevery time that we meet up with
them, he's not the only one intears.
I mean, I'm in tears, they'rein tears.
You have to see something likethis to really feel the emotion
of why you do what you do everyday.
(08:01):
Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I think that's a big thing.
If you've never seen it now,what did they see?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So he had mentioned that, cause he, they, all of
their installers, were in house,and it took several days to do
a roof two, three, four days todo a roof that should have been
done in a day, and I he says,well, how many people actually
do a roof in a day?
I'm like everybody I know know,and so at that point he had to
(08:44):
see it.
He had to see that roofingcould be done in a day or two,
depending on the size of thehouse, but you know, it was how
this was run, what you know, howthey were able to scale.
So the biggest thing, though,was that someone could actually
do a roof in a day.
That was probably one of thebiggest takeaways for them, and
(09:07):
the other thing was the team theteam that was in place and what
everybody did there at O'Leary.
So, again, once they got achance to see that, I could sit
here and talk to them, blue inthe face on here, these are all
the people we're going to put inplace, but until you understand
what these people do and whythey do it, it doesn't make any
sense.
Okay, I'm blue in the face onhere, these are all the people
we're going to put in place.
But until you understand whatthese people do and why they do
(09:28):
it, it doesn't make any sense.
And okay, I'm going to put themin place, but I don't know what
to do with them.
And all of a sudden it all cameto a head.
It's like this all makes senseand we've done this with
companies all over the UnitedStates.
We, depending on your company,we, I guarantee it because we've
worked with with thousands oforganizations across the United
(09:49):
States and Canada, and so thereis somebody that we worked with
and scaled them, and so thatwhen this other company comes in
, they're very, very similar tothat company.
Maybe it's a.
We had a organizationorganization.
They were 20 million, similarto that company.
Maybe it's a we had aorganization organization.
They were 20 million.
(10:09):
And he says we're trying to getto a hundred million.
How do we do this?
I says, well, I have just theplace I want to send you to.
I want you to see what thislooks like, because right now
you have mass chaos.
That's the problem with so manyof these organizations is they
allow sales reps and productionstaff to do it their way, as
long as you know, we don't hearanything from the homeowner.
We must be okay.
And I said before I startcoaching you, I want you to see
(10:30):
what success in that realm lookslike, what you're about to walk
through, the doors that you'reabout to walk through, it was
within two years.
Two years, they were at $170million, you know.
So, again, you know, we, thesuccess that we have, is based
on our community.
But we change their mindset,how they think, how they act.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah it's.
It is very hard, I mean it'svery hard to even envision what
it looks like, right Like,especially as you're, if you're
in that startup phase, you're,you know, kind of still working
in the business a lot, or evenif you've been around for a long
time, but you're still, you arestill the main person in your
(11:16):
business.
You don't have a business,you're more self-employed.
Right Like, it's very hard toeven understand what.
It's very hard to evenunderstand what, what goes on
over there, in that, in thatcompany, across town, across
(11:38):
state lines, across the country.
Right Like, how does a companydo that times with people who
have started to kind of hitthose roadblocks along the way
and then express to me well, itdoesn't work, or this doesn't
work, right Like, a specificthing I hear like door to door
doesn't work, it doesn't scale.
(11:59):
Like, have you heard of powerhome improvement?
Like, have you heard of?
Right?
Like, have you heard of?
Have you heard of haveimprovement?
Like, have you heard of rightLike, have you heard of?
Have you heard of?
Have you heard of?
Have you heard of, becausetheir door to door scales?
It's your skillset in door todoor that isn't scaling right,
it is, you know, from a, from aretail focus company to a storm
(12:20):
restoration company, there's youhave to see it sometimes to
really go.
Oh, you know, we got exposed toa lot of companies, like you do
across the country with roofermarketers, and we got to see the
back end and who's doing thingsright.
And you know, you, we work withone company that has
(12:41):
outrageously efficient processesthat if you say, if I describe
them, it may it will make thepeople listening feel bad about
themselves, because they are.
They were so detailed fromevery aspect of communication
with their team, with their,with their customers, with.
(13:01):
It's just a fantastic process.
That was built over time, right, many, many iterations of
building this up and buildingthis up.
But if you're sitting therewith you know your cell phone
and your, you know a couple ofcrews, you can't even imagine
(13:24):
what a process would look likein that regard or what the team
looks like in that regard.
Right, yeah, that that'sfantastic.
So do you?
So for people listening, like,how do they?
I know you have theintroductions and things like
that, but you know, I mean Ithink about it.
Just, you know we have the RSRAthat has a lot of members
(13:46):
involved.
We have but going toconferences and things like that
, you meet other people, makefriends, right, like make
friends in this industry and govisit them.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
You know people think that and we get this so so
often is, uh, I, I don't want tobe in that group coaching
because there's a competitor.
Get to know them.
You know in, uh, if you don'thave competitors there's no
excitement.
You know, in your area, if youhave the right type of
competitors, it it throws enoughdust up that brings business.
(14:20):
So you should embrace yourcompetitors and on the on the
flip side is help yourcompetitors.
I don't know how many timeswhen, and even in my own
contracting businesses where acompetitor literally down the
street is asking for help andwe'll go over there, we'll sit
down with them.
We have no problem is, if I'mgoing to compete with somebody,
(14:41):
I at least want them to knowwhat they're doing.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
It's that, yeah, such a make sure you have an
abundance mindset.
I'll tell you, chuck, ifthey're listening to this show,
they have an abundance mindset,yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And when you're out and talking inside of these
events.
I mean, networking is thebiggest thing people think of.
Oh, what speakers are going to,who cares?
And I am one of the speakers,but who cares what speakers are
going to be there?
I want to know what othercompanies are there so that I
can say I've not met them, but Isure want to.
(15:17):
You know how many of the peoplethat I do know can introduce me
to people like Eric Oberyn orGrant Rockett or, you know, zach
Willard any of these bigcompanies are like.
I'd love to figure out what youguys are doing.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
That's right, and you will find that a lot of those
guys are very open to sharing,very open.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
And they love it.
Usually they're trying tofigure business out.
They'd love to try and figureyour business out.
You know it's like a playgroundto them.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
That's right.
What's the?
There's that analogy like thebest CEOs are the ones that ask
the most questions, right, likeit's?
They're not talking aboutthemselves.
They're probably asking you andyou're like I had who was it?
Saw a?
Uh, I saw a clip of some show,uh, or an interview, and someone
was talking about they actuallyhad dinner with warren buffett
(16:11):
one time and warren buffettspent the whole time asking him
questions, yeah, and he's like,no, no, I want to ask you
questions.
You know, like the smartest guyin the room is the one asking
the questions, right, and Ithink there is something to the
(16:34):
belief For me early on.
We have a friend, jimmy Nichols,who had a marketing agency.
We joined a mastermind groupback in I think it was 2019.
And he had just hit some biglevels in his agency and it was
like, oh, that's possible, likethat's possible.
(16:58):
Yeah, where do you go frommindset, now that you believe it
, now that you see, see, man,that's what we can really?
I really truly feel like we canaccomplish this.
Where do you go from there?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
well, you mentioned belief.
Um, and it's like affirmations.
Here's the thing, here's thetruth about affirmation.
Affirmations do you absolutelyno good what?
Until you decide that you'regoing to believe the
affirmations?
Affirmations, do you absolutelyno good?
What?
Until you decide that you'regoing to believe the
affirmations?
When somebody says I'm thegreatest salesman ever, do you
(17:33):
really believe that?
You know, and so is that reallygoing to help you?
As you telling yourself you'rethe best salesman ever?
Yeah, so, but what happens when?
When we look at belief, sobelief, your belief, sales reps,
the managers and the owners.
Your belief drives yourbehavior.
(17:53):
So, if you believe success isunlikely, you're going to show
up small, you're going to avoidrejection and you're going to
hesitate to lead.
So we need to understand whatthat, what that looks like.
But if you believe that it isinevitable, you're going to take
bold action, you're going toattract better opportunities and
(18:15):
then you're going to becomeunstoppable.
And when people look at it, like, well, that's cute that you say
that, chuck, that's what Ibelieve and that's what I've
done.
Um, whether it's, you know,being an able Mr Roof and
working with a large team tomake it, at that time, the
largest roofing company inAmerica.
It's not there now, but it was,and you know just understanding
(18:40):
how big we needed to be.
And then you know getting intocoaching and making Top Rep what
it is today.
I mean you know getting intocoaching and and making top rep
what it is today.
I mean I had to understandwhere my beliefs were and I knew
that that success wasinevitable.
So again, it's all withinbelief.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Well, the way I say, if you have faith in the outcome
, you'll execute right.
So that's all you need isenough faith in that outcome,
even if you like, if you'resaying I'm the greatest
salesperson in the world and youdon't believe it, that's true.
But if you have faith that ifyou continue to get reps in
every day, you'll get there,you'll go and put the reps in
(19:19):
every day, right.
But I think if you don'tbelieve that, if you don't have
faith that it's going to comeout of the other side and that's
where I think it's impactful.
Like the company in Oregon thattraveled across the country
they had, they had nothing to befaithful of right Like they did
.
They couldn't.
But once they saw it and metthe people there and had
(19:41):
conversations, they were wow.
Before we carry on with theepisode, let's give a shout out
to one of our sponsors.
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(20:03):
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But once they saw it and metthe people there and had
conversations, they were wow,this is a true possibility.
(20:48):
Yes, it's a powerful, powerfulthing.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Um we have another real quick story.
We had another organization inColumbus Ohio and he's a
franchisee and he came to mewondering if maybe he should go
work for somebody else or goback into a different trade.
And I, I I'm right here inDayton Ohio.
(21:13):
So I was like, hey, you knowwhat I want to.
I want to come out and take alook at what you've got, and it
didn't take me long at all.
I says, look, you know, for youI'm going to make a suggestion,
and the suggestion is going tobe hard to take.
And I says I think you justneed to fire.
He's like fire who?
I says all of them, becauseinside of his organization and I
(21:35):
will tell you that's the veryfirst organization I ever told
an owner fire everybody.
That's the only time I've eversaid this, but it was inevitable
that they were all takingadvantage of him.
He knew numbers inside and out,but how to run an organization
(21:55):
he just wasn't quite there yetand so he did exactly what I
asked him to do.
We brought in somebody that wasreally made up any of his
weaknesses and just so you know,any owner out there and every
owner out there has weaknesses,and whether you're a good
business owner and you justdon't know how to sell or market
(22:17):
or maybe you're not a sell butyou suck at running a business
go out and find somebody, and itdoesn't mean you have to
partner with them, but bringthem in to do the things that
you're not good at.
And so he is uh, he was namedfranchise of the year last year.
He's, uh, about to startanother location, um, but again,
(22:38):
they're the fastest growing uhfranchise inside of that, inside
that, the entire franchise.
So I mean it is it's a limitingbelief, and so you have to
identify those limiting beliefs.
You have to challenge themruthlessly and then replace them
with empowering thoughts andthen reinforce that through
(23:01):
action and repetition.
And that's what's tough.
It's tough to challenge yourlimiting beliefs as ruthlessly
as you need to, and some ofthese you really need to pay
attention to what yourenvironment is.
(23:22):
I'm sure that Jim, you've heardof you're the average of your
five closest friends, orsomething like that, and I can't
tell you how important that is.
So you look at these businessowners and then ask them who do
you hang out with?
And these other business ownersthat they hang out with are
right in line with them.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
It is, and and they're all at the at the table
talking about how they all can'tgrow, and it's just not
possible, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Is that.
I will tell you, if they had abunch of three and $4 million
businesses that you knowsurrounded them, they would get
really tired about hearing about.
You know, woe is me and I'm notsaying that all three and $4
million businesses do this, butthose of those businesses that
are stagnant and not moving pastthere most of them are they're
(24:14):
trying to figure out like, ohman, I can't get leads at.
You know, they're the same onesthat just won't do the
follow-up.
Yeah, that's right, they liketo complain about it.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
It's kind of funny.
We had some stats that wepulled, some data that we pulled
from lead generation that wedid with our clients, and 40% of
all leads were unanswered.
Yeah, it's 40 percent.
They left almost nearly half ofthe opportunity on the table.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
It makes no sense.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
It just makes no sense.
But that's so.
I've had a couple of goodconversations with this.
Our friend John Brose and wehad a great conversation around
this and for around day 30, day41 thrive.
And Jonathan Cronston I had onrecently who um wrote the
billion dollar bullseye.
He was the president of Kajabi,which is a very, very large uh
(25:14):
marketing software platform, andhe some of your thoughts on
this.
I love the way that Jonathan isJ Cron put these things in play
or kind of in theory.
He has seven principles andpeople's.
The last and the first thingswere more around, you know,
(25:36):
around building a product and anexperience for your customers
that's exceptional.
Then you can focus on yourmarketing, because then you can.
Because sales and marketingwill show you the holes in your
business real quick, I guarantee, chuck, you know you go out to
one of your events.
(25:57):
There's some good sales repsthere.
If you're a bad business andyou hire those sales reps and
you can't produce, if you're abad business and you hire those
sales reps and you can't produce, they're not going to sell.
Those sales reps become they'renot sold people anymore.
Right?
Your sales people will hesitateto make a sale if they feel
(26:21):
they're going to get a call fromthe homeowner?
Yes, right.
So the working on that customerexperience and getting really
focused on that customerexperience and your processes,
your product and I'm not sayingspend your life doing this and
then go hire salespeople,because I also believe that
iteration is the way right.
(26:41):
So, without having a customer,you don't know how good or bad
your processes are.
You have to run people throughright, but you have to learn
(27:09):
along the way that customerexperience built out and your
salespeople now are, are, arereally confident that you are
the best option for their, forthe people that they're speaking
to.
Magically, close rates will getbetter, right.
Magically, your marketing getsbetter.
Magically, your marketing getsbetter.
Magically, you attract peopleto work for you that are better.
(27:29):
It's pretty magical.
What's your experience aroundthis?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Well, there is a saying out there that is untrue
and that is that people buy frompeople they know like and trust
.
That is untrue.
People buy from people theyknow like and trust.
That is untrue.
And here's the truth behind itis people buy from people they
trust and believe.
Well, if you have a sales repthat doesn't even believe in
their product, that they're justthere to try to sell it, to get
a paycheck and run because theyknow that they wouldn't even
(28:00):
put this product on their houseor have these installers
installed, you know, you know,install anything on their homes,
let alone a roof, again it'sgoing to come out, the facial
expressions, the way that thetonality comes across.
I mean that homeowner, they maynot know exactly what's wrong,
(28:22):
but they know something's wrong.
Something did not adding up.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Definitely.
It's crazy how we don't thinkabout this.
How many companies do you seethat try to just throw sales
reps at the process or at theproblem?
They have a revenue problem.
That's.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
All we need is more sales reps I'll say probably
about 80, 85 percent will dothis.
Yeah, it's crazy.
You know, money, money is thecure for everything.
Right?
You know sales cures everything.
And I'm like no, and I'm asales guy and I'm going to tell
you, no, that's not the problem,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
So what's the solution for those guys that are
trying to just throwsalespeople at the problem?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
They need to look at, just like you mentioned.
They need to look at what it isthat they're, what experience,
what, what product, everythingthat they're providing to a
homeowner, what's the protection?
You know everybody's like.
Well, we need to lower ourprice, we need to to cheapen our
products.
We can lower our price like whywould you do this?
I would raise the price of myquality product enough that I
(29:41):
can sell a certain amount andmake more than those people that
are out selling.
They might be out selling 50,60%, but they're selling it at
so much less that they have tokeep selling just to keep food
on the table.
When you know a lot of ourclients, you know they're
(30:01):
selling way up here and, yeah,they may be closing at 45, 50%,
uh, instead of the 50 to 60%,but their profit is so much more
.
We had a, a very large clientdown South and they're like
Chuck, we were trying to figurethis out, our, uh, our job size
went down, uh, leads kind oflightened up and uh, we're also
(30:25):
doing a lot more repairs than wehave.
And I says well, what do youthink the solution?
I knew what the solution was,but I asked him what do you
think the solution is he goes.
I really don't know.
What do we?
You know?
Do we push our sales repsharder?
And I'm like, well, I mean youshould train them a little bit
more.
But what you need to do israise the pricing enough that
the profit people look atrevenue.
(30:47):
Oh, my gosh, my revenue isgoing down.
Well, how do you keep theprofit from going down?
Cause I can care less about therevenue.
How do I?
What do I need to do so that myprofit doesn't go down?
And uh, that's one reason why Ido like, uh, like service.
When it comes to roofing, I dolike service.
If you do it right, it's veryprofitable.
(31:09):
And you know you're the onestanding in front of the
homeowner.
Very seldomly does a homeownerget three bids for, well, I need
a new pipe boot.
I have sold more $2,500 pipeboots than I care to admit,
because that's our lowest,that's our minimum, and if
that's all they need now, I'mgoing to do a full roof tune-up
(31:30):
because I feel bad.
That's right.
You know I'm going to dowhatever I can, but that's my
minimum is $2,500.
And so I'm also there toperform a service and to sell a
job.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
And that goes back to mindset, though, too Like a
company that I spoke with many,many years ago called in about
marketing services and and theywere in a smaller market, not a
not I'll even say more of asmall town 50, I'll even say
(32:06):
more of a small town 50, 80,000person kind of area, and and he
was like man, it was like himand two other guys in the market
for a long time, and they, theyalmost set their price.
They you know what I mean Likewe're, we're all like right
around here, and one of the bignames came to town and was
double, double and ate them.
(32:30):
A lot was eating them alive,yeah, and this guy was blown
away.
He couldn't believe that theywere selling price per square
than he was, and they and andpeople, people were paying it.
What's going on here?
That's another mindset shift.
(32:52):
What do you, how, how do youhave that conversation with an
owner about the mindset of price?
Because I truly believe thatthat's like that's, that's
something that we don't look at.
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And then there's another thingthat I think we don't.
(34:00):
I believe a lot of times wearbitrarily set our pricing.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, we had a concrete coating company out of
Chicago and he was frustrated.
He says, man, these concretecoating companies that just sell
for four and $5 a square footthat you know.
We just can't compete with them.
I'm like, oh yeah, you can.
He goes how do we compete withthem?
I says higher pricing.
So I asked him.
I says I want you to raise yourpricing to $10 per square foot.
(34:29):
And he stared at me.
He goes we'd go out of business.
I said you might be shocked.
And I says now, don't just raiseyour prices and start running
out the door.
I says let me work with yoursales team.
I just need an hour with them.
And so we got in with the salesteam, we let them know what we
were going to do and even thesales team was like all right.
(34:50):
And I says here, here's thedeal that I'm going to make you.
I says I just want you to dothis for a week.
I just want you to do it for aweek.
If it doesn't work in the nextweek, we'll train you to do
whatever you want to do.
And uh, so he calls me up.
It wasn't even a week, it onlyabout three days.
(35:13):
He says we haven't missed adeal yet and we've never done
that.
He says I don't understand.
We, we double our price andthis is what now.
Granted, we put in a lot morevalue and protection and all
that.
But he says, I don't understand.
I says here's the thing.
His name was Bill.
I says here's the thing, bill,is that when you're way up here
and you give a price andeverybody else is way down here,
(35:35):
then what's wrong with them?
There has to be something wrong.
You know, when you go out andbuy something and there is
something else sitting next toit and it's so much higher price
, which one do you buy it?
He smiles, he goes I'm gonnabuy the higher price one that's
his that fight lower pricingwith higher prices.
Yeah it's.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
It's a crazy thing to think about, but it it it
really works.
Now you did mention you'rebuilding in the value of that
price.
You can't at the same time toraise the price there has.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
you did mention, you're building in the value of
that price at the same time.
You can't just raise the price.
There has to be somethingyou're going to put in, and
sometimes it's protection, somesort of warranty, a worry-free
guarantee, any of that type ofstuff that we show you how to do
during our coaching.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yeah, and that's probably something you'd do
anyway.
Yeah, and that's probablysomething you'd do anyway.
Yeah, I talked to contract.
I've been preaching this foryears, man, I'm like you don't
have a lifetime workmanship 12,year 15, year 23,.
If it was your fault youwouldn't fix it.
(36:47):
Oh, I'd fix it if it was myfault.
Would it be your fault at thatpoint in time?
Probably not Right.
But what is the?
How does the homeowner feelabout that?
Yes, wow, really.
This guy, well, these othercompanies are saying five years.
You're telling me lifetime andwhat they mean in that five
(37:08):
years is like.
Because you know, I think thatmost, I think that most
contractors are trying to do thebright thing right, the ones on
the news you hear all the time.
It gets a little filtered thatway.
But but I truly believe I Italk to a lot of people.
I'm sure you do too man there'sa lot of good people trying to
do the right thing, and theywould do the right thing at
(37:31):
every point in the way.
So why not express it, andexpress it in a way that allows
you to be in business 23 yearsfrom now?
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Right, you mentioned something big there.
I was in a big, big bathfranchise and I was sitting down
with the owner and one of theproduction managers comes in.
He says hey, we've got thiscustomer.
It's right outside of ourwarranty time.
What do you want me to do?
And he says fix it.
(38:01):
He goes, but it's outside ofour warranty time.
He goes, it's got my name on itand he says fix it.
He goes, but it's outside ofour warranty time.
He goes, it's got my name on it.
Yeah, he says fix it.
And the guy left.
I'm like so let me ask you, Idon't care if it's another 20
years down the road.
What we do is I'm going to fixit.
I'm like then take advantage ofthat, stop this 10 year
warranty crap.
Express it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, it's a the.
There is a pricing psychology.
I don't know.
Do you ever coach on on likemultiple options, good, better,
best kind of style of pricing?
We get deeper, let's, let's gointo that a little bit.
If it's, if it's good, better,best, where does the middle go
and why?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
so you know, like your, your middle option is
typically the option that youwill sell the most, and so
that's the one that that youwant to have priced correctly.
Now, you're bigger, you're best.
What you do with that is youset the bar.
That's where you set thestandard when you're giving
(39:08):
price.
That's why we call it best,better, good, not good.
Better, best, better, good,okay, yeah, and there's two ways
of thinking about this.
So if you're going to, ifyou're going to give the price
in person, it's got to be best,better, good, and so I'm going
to set the price with that.
And then I'm going to jump overto the good and I'm going to
trash all the Chuck and thetrucks.
(39:29):
Okay, bob and Mary, this is howwe compete with all the
contractors.
You know the Chuck and thetrucks, vincent of vans, you
know Dale from jail, you knowall those guys.
You know that's how we competewith them.
And uh, but then what we foundwith a lot of the research that
we've done, is everybody wantsthe durability and protection of
the best, but they want it forthe financial comfort of the
(39:53):
good.
Thus the better was born, andso we make, and we actually
hired a lady that does a lot ofthis stuff for Kohl's.
We paid her stupid money totell us what we already know,
but we raised the price of thebest to really bring it up here.
I mean, knock them out of theirseats.
And then what we did with thegood was we put it within $500
(40:18):
of the better, and everybodythat looks is like well, this is
just a no brainer, I know.
Well, yeah, it's designed thatway.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
It's designed that way.
So this is where I was goingand I thought this would be good
is like designing your pricingright.
Like I mentioned before, Ithink a lot of times we
arbitrarily price our products,and not only.
There's a couple of things thatyou could do there price our
products and not only.
There's a couple of things thatyou could do there.
Like.
(40:47):
The first thing is you're notactually looking at your numbers
when you're price.
When you're building out yourpricing right, you're not
actually building in what yourmarketing budget will be, what
your recruiting budget is, whatyour, what your, what your, what
your.
Yeah, yeah, you're kind of well, well, joe down the streets at
this and Bob over there is atthis and Sally's at that.
(41:08):
So we're going to kind of we'regoing to be in there somewhere,
but now the?
So the first thing I think alot of contractors should do is
go back and price price based onreal numbers and what they're
trying to achieve in theirbusiness, on the profit that
they're trying to make and allof that and then using sale
(41:29):
pricing psychology, like you'retalking about, to actually
achieve that more often in there, in the, in the yeses is is
fantastic, like that's mygoodness.
If, if you do that, I promiseyou, you're going to win, my
goodness if you do that, Ipromise you're going to win.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
We call this price engineering, but it does several
things here.
It's one thing to kind of pushthem into that middle package,
but for the business, because onthe good you might do felt
paper and on the better you dosynthetic, and on the best you
do breathable synthetic Well, Iwant to do the same material as
(42:08):
often as possible.
I might not be able to do thesame colors, but if I have all
this synthetic at some point Icould probably do a whole house
of synthetic underlayment withthe, the leftovers from the last
10 jobs.
So again you're now you're agood steward with your money and
again, if you're always doingthat same, 80% of the time
(42:28):
you're doing that same system,you can actually save a lot of
money.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, inventory management there I know some
great contractors who've gottenreally good at that and then
they have the ability to startto buy in bulk and they get to
really create some competitiveadvantages in their marketplace
where, like I know, I know acouple of contractors now that
(42:55):
if they want the job, they getit and they'll be profitable
because they've really dialedthat, that in and they they know
what they have in theirinventory and they know what
they can do with it and still beprofitable and that's very,
very powerful.
It's very, very powerful.
Yes, I think the market'schanging on us.
(43:18):
Chuck, what are you seeing outthere?
I know, from a digitalmarketing perspective, search
volumes down, there's less callscoming in, there's more people
that Google went to zero, a lotof zero click searches.
People are talking in the chatGPT instead of going to Google
(43:49):
from a marketing standpoint.
But I feel like, are you havingeconomic or just conversations
of people who are saying youknow, it's just not as good as
last year?
Speaker 2 (43:54):
It's.
The market is changing and youcan take, because there's a lot
of companies out there that aredominating, and they'll tell you
that they are still havingrecord months that aren't in and
they're not in the storm areas,but they're still having record
months.
We have a client in Syracuse,new York, that has tripled his
(44:15):
business yet again.
I mean, pes are chasing himdown because he's this guy's
good um and I'm fighting myselffrom saying the name but very,
very good at what he does.
And again, you know it's hismindset, it's the way he thinks,
it's the way he goes to market,it's the way that he trains his
(44:36):
sales staff and his productioncrews.
That's why they're doing aswell.
But then there are a lot oforganizations that are what we
like to call the red oceanorganizations, which, if you
look at blue ocean, red ocean,you know the red ocean
organizations.
They're playing in thebloodbath, they're the ones that
(44:56):
are on social media and they'rejust waiting for someone to
come up with a great idea.
Well, just so you know, yourcompetitor just saw that too,
and they're out there doing thedigital door knocking or
whatever the shiny nickel is,and everybody's running towards
it.
This is why I love DavidCarroll so much because the one
(45:17):
thing that not too many peopleare running towards is mail, and
that's why David Carroll ismaking millionaires out of
roofers and many other trades.
But these folks are like, hey,if everybody else is running
digital, I'm going to put myfoot in the ring over there, but
I'm going to put a lot of moneyin this because I know nobody
(45:38):
is outside of a few windowcompanies.
That you might compete with Mailis just weird.
You might compete with mail isjust weird.
If you've looked at the mailthat's coming to your house, how
many pieces of mail are yougetting for roofing, siding?
Well, windows you do.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
But windows yeah, um you know, gutters I don't you
don't?
it's very strange and and it'slike that, that's a.
I.
I love a good marketing mix.
I'm the.
I love omnipresence, I lovebeing everywhere and in in their
mailbox, like everywhere, thatyou can be at the same time,
(46:14):
because when one has a littledip, you have other poles in the
water, right, like there's um,and I think that, uh, you know,
I, I know some people in theremodeling industry too, and I'm
sure you do, and it's like, man, that the COVID money's gone.
You know, like there's a,there's a lot of that that's
(46:36):
gone away.
And there's that old analogy ofall time the tide lifts all
boats Right, and now the tide iscoming out a little bit, and so
I've had conversations withmany companies recently who they
rode the tide and they got.
(46:58):
They didn't execute, as if itwas.
They didn't know that it was,that they were in high tide,
right, right, yeah, and so theyexecuted that's the way they
learned how to do business.
Yeah, and now, as things aremoving away, I know you're
(47:20):
enjoying the episode, but let'sgive a shout out to another one
of our sponsors.
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Speaker 1 (47:52):
That's the way they learned how to do business, yeah
, and now, as things are movingaway, they don't understand how
to do business in a more scarcerenvironment.
What would be your advice tothose types of companies?
(48:12):
So here's the again we're goingto go back to COVID.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Everybody got lazy in .
COVID.
I love the organizations.
They're like, oh man, we wentfrom zero to 10 million.
Yeah, so did everybody else,you know.
And but now that we're pastcoven, like you said, we're past
the co-good money, um, you knowthe uh we, we go back to bc and
(48:38):
people are like, oh, beforechrist, like no, before covet.
You know, we actually had tosell before covet came along.
We actually had to learn how tosell and even the sales based
organizations have lost theirminds.
And now they're like oh, chuck,I don't know how to get back to
this, I don't know what.
And it's like it's not as hardas you think, but the way that
you do it is either going tosink you or make you very, very
(49:02):
wealthy.
You know, just like anybodyelse will tell you, when things
get tough, that's whenmillionaires are made, because
the majority of people will sinkbecause they're not prepared
and they don't know.
And but yet those folks thatare either willing to reach out
and grab the proper help and beshown a better way of doing
(49:24):
certain things, or that they'rejust smarter and they remember
what it was like before COVID,those are the people that are
going to make it very, very well.
And again.
We see these every day.
We see the owners that have theright mindset and they're
either willing to go out and getthe help that they need or they
(49:45):
already know.
They already know how this isgoing to work and they're just
smart people.
But then there's those otherfolks that you know.
They don't know where to go,they don't know where to turn
and they don't have the rightmindset.
All of a sudden, it's woe.
Is me, oh my gosh.
The economy, oh my gosh.
The tariffs, oh my God.
Like that doesn't have anythingto do with anything.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
No, but it's.
You know both, both you and Iwere in the mortgage business.
You know, back in the back inthe heyday, right, and we
watched it go up and down.
That was one of my favoritelessons in life, looking back,
because it was a.
It was the tide, right, like Iboy, it was it.
(50:26):
It was a tide that I rode, andnow I know when the tide is
rising I could see it a littlebetter, right Like I realize
where I'm at.
So, you know, get better isreally the.
You know, get better, adjustyour pricing, get more
(50:46):
profitable.
Some of the other parts of theconversation that we have are
really applicable to that right,like, if you're not, if you're
running thin margins, oh, you'regoing to have some trouble,
right?
Speaker 2 (50:59):
So we have to train our sales reps on how to have
the sales conversation too.
You know, these sales reps areso they.
They just don't know they.
So many of these organizationsare going out and say, hey, I
just need somebody that knowshow to get on a roof, do an
inspection, come down and give aprice.
Yeah, I can hire somebody for15 an hour to do that.
(51:21):
I don't need a sales rep forthat, that's right.
I need a sales rep for isunderstanding how to give price
and then how to talk to thehomeowners so that we can fix
their problems.
And the problem is not theirroof, their problem is trying to
figure out who to use and howcan I afford it.
So, but they most sales repswon't go beyond the price.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
No, what do you think ?
How do you feel that, the sale,that the kind of the AI
technology?
I know you I don't know if youstill do, but you were working a
lot with Rilla and things likethat where you know some of the
AI focused technology, whetherthrough something like a Rilla
(52:07):
or Ciro or one of those type ofapplications, or just in general
.
How do you feel?
Where do you what, what?
What does Chuck see the futurearound around this technology
and the sales process?
Speaker 2 (52:23):
So we do work very closely with Rilla and because
of our partnership we get theopportunity to see the trends.
We get the opportunity to seewhat works and what was nothing
more than a myth.
I can I can cover that all daylong, but the where that
technology is going, it's goingto be part of your CRM.
(52:47):
Just wait for it to happen.
When your sales rep because weused to yell and scream
ourselves put your notes in thesystem, put your notes in the
system anymore, you don't haveto really do it for you.
They will break everything thathappened in that house down and
put it into your, your CRM foryou.
You know, I will say that AIcurrently is not going to take
(53:08):
over sales.
It's not going to.
People still want to deal withpeople.
Whether you want to believethat or not, they still want to
deal with people.
But how AI?
I mean I could.
It seems like every podcastright now.
We were talking about AI andwhat it's doing, what it can do
for you.
You know, one of the thingsthat you're going to see at top
(53:32):
rep is an organization that willcompletely moneyball your
organization, and I do mean yourmarketing, your sales and your
production.
It literally tells you how tooperate, to grow.
And when I, when I wasintroduced to it, I was
flabbergasted.
I, okay, I knew it was coming,but I didn't know it was here
(53:54):
and uh, so I mean it's, it'sgrowing, ai is growing fast
inside of the, the industry.
Um, and this is whydiversification is not bad.
I mean, the biggest industrythat's going to be taken on not
over, but taken on by AI isroofing, because you can do
(54:14):
everything from a satellite.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
I mean years ago, early on in my podcast I had a
group on who was, who wasworking off of this, off of that
type of imaging and doingdamage detection and different
things and the drone flyovers.
I know Eagle View hasapplications and there's
multiple applications in themarketplace now for for for AI.
You know from that, but now youknow from a satellite image now
as now as the AI gets better.
My goodness, to kind ofsummarize all that, what does a
(54:57):
company do?
Because I heard it but I'm notgoing to summarize it for you.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
So I can cover this in different ways and I don't
know if this is what you'rethinking of but ways that you
combat, like, the companies thatare going to lose are the
companies that are going to gointo the fight with a
manufacturer.
What I mean by this is I've gotGIF, I've got Owens Corning, so
(55:24):
does everybody else, but whenyou go into this, this fight, to
say our, our, uh techs installbetter, we protect it better, we
, you know, and so the, whatthey need to put forward to the
customer is your organization.
How can your organizationprovide better service than
(55:47):
everybody else that has the sameproducts?
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Yeah, it's a differentiation in brand,
essentially right, adifferentiation in value in your
marketing messaging, in yoursales messaging, in your sales
messaging helping that the sameway that that you can increase
your pricing and have a valueconversation.
(56:12):
You're, it's going to be likewhat?
What I was hearing was that'sgoing to be the impactful thing,
moving forward.
Yeah, and it, it, it's awesome,what?
Okay, so we talked about a lot.
We started off, started offwith like you know, really you
have to have the mindset ofscaling and and it.
You know, for a contractor outthere, what you know, where do
(56:37):
they?
You know, I know, coaching iswhere you start and there
there's a lot of great resources, but just individual to
individual, what can they do tosurvive and thrive and actually
scale to where they want to taketheir business.
Speaker 2 (56:59):
So, first and foremost, they need to know
their numbers, and I don't carehow big or small these
organizations are, we ask themabout you know, okay, where do
you want to go, what, what isyour next move, and do you know
what the numbers look like to dothat?
And I'll tell you, many of themdon't know.
They've never actually takenthe time to see what, how many
(57:21):
jobs that takes, and how do youbreak that down based on your
bell curve?
That's, that's one of the firstthings.
The other thing is is take alook at your product.
You mentioned it.
Take a look at your product,your service and the experience
that you provide.
Well, would you want to sell it?
Because, if not, maybe you needto take a look at it and start
to change it so that your teamactually feels comfortable
(57:43):
providing it and selling it.
You know, that's one of thethings that we just got done,
talking about and then themindset part of this is go out
and find somebody that has beenthere and that is willing to
bring you in and show you, andwhat you're going to find is
somebody with processes,procedures, that they are
(58:05):
unnegotiable.
You're going to find a lot ofpeople out there with processes
and procedures.
See the ones that are growing.
They do not negotiate theirprocess.
Well, bobby doesn't like tosell like that, then bobby needs
to go find another job, youknow.
Uh, well, tammy, you knowthat's just not her, that's not
her thing, and so we had to kindof move her position in a way.
(58:28):
Tammy needs to go find anotherjob.
You know your processes, yourprocedures.
You do not negotiate it,because these are your values,
your core values.
This is the way that you'regoing to operate your business,
and the moment that you decidethat you're going to go
differently, it's not going togo well, it's not going to go
well, chuck.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
It's always a pleasure man.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning into theRoofing Success Podcast.
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(59:10):
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