June 17, 2025 • 58 mins
Is Your Roofing Business Invisible to AI? Marcus Sheridan Says It Might Be…
The old way of marketing is dying. And if you're still stuck doing what used to work on Google, your roofing company could vanish. Fast.
In this episode, Jim Ahlin sits down with They Ask, You Answer author Marcus Sheridan to uncover the NEW way to win in roofing sales and marketing. Based on his new book, Endless Customers, Marcus lays out a 4-pillar system for becoming the most known and trusted brand — not just with people… but with AI.
🔹 Why ranking #1 on Google doesn't matter anymore
🔹 How AI is changing everything (and what to do about it)
🔹 The 4 secrets that build brand trust with humans AND AI
🔹 Why the best brands “Say What Others Won’t Say”
🔹 The self-service tools you need to close more leads
🔹 How to use VIDEO to dominate your market
🔹 And what to do TODAY to survive the shift that’s already here
If your lead costs are going up… if your phone stopped ringing… or if you’re clinging to old-school sales strategies…
This episode will light a fire under your feet. It’s time to stop falling behind and start future-proofing your company.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Are you building your roofing business on a marketing
model that's about to collapse?
Marcus Sheridan, the legendaryauthor of they Ask you Answer,
is back this time with a warningand a roadmap for contractors
trying to survive the newdigital era, and a new book
Endless Customers.
Ai is changing search, killingthe old SEO playbook and pushing
(00:23):
Google into decline, and ifyour roofing company isn't
adapting, you're about to beinvisible to customers.
In this episode, marcus breaksdown the four pillars of
creating a brand.
Ai will trust and recommend,starting with why you must start
saying what your competitorswon't, the video strategy that
(00:46):
will separate winners fromeveryone else, why you need a
self-service experience for yourbuyers today.
And how to actually be morehuman in a tech-driven world.
So if you're struggling withlead generation, watching lead
costs rise or still clinging toold school sales strategies,
this is an episode that willshake you up and get you future
(01:09):
ready.
Let's dive in to how to createendless customers with Marcus
Sheridan.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
roofing business.
Marcus Sheridan, how?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
are you today, yo Jim ?
It's going to be a good day.
Excited about this conversation, buddy.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, man, it's always good, Really excited to
have you on.
You know you've been around theroofing industry for a few
years now, speaking at RoofingProcess Conference a few times.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, good old Dimitri, for a few years now,
speaking at Roofing ProcessConference.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
A few times I've known you from the agency side
of things also, and in your bookthey Ask you Answer what's been
going on.
Give the audience a little bitof an overview if they're not
familiar with Marcus Sheridan.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, and let me take it all the way back just real
quick for everybody.
I started as a pool guy swingpool company called River Pools,
2001, just fighting to grow thebusiness, just like everybody
here that's listening.
And 2008, 2009, we get thecrash.
Good thing about crashes andhard times is they create strong
men and women.
And so it was during that timethat I really said you know, I
(02:20):
got nothing to lose and let'sreally learn about this thing
called the internet.
And I did, and as I studied, Iwas like you know, basically
what I'm reading over and overagain is I just obsess over my
buyer, their questions, fears,worries, concerns, and I'm
willing to address those onlinethrough text, through video.
I might save my business.
So I said, well, again, I hadnothing to lose here, because I
(02:43):
was already looking at losing myhome and I thought it was like
a really scary time, but again,it was pretty exciting too.
So that's when I said we'regoing to become the best
teachers in the world when itcomes to, in our case,
fiberglass pools.
And I brainstormed all thequestions I'd ever received and
there was hundreds of questionsand then I started answering
(03:05):
them, along with my businesspartners, and we did it through
text and video, on our websitemainly, and on YouTube, and, to
make a long story short, webecame the most trafficked
swimming pool website in theworld and it was quite
extraordinary and we explodedEventually.
We started getting so manyleads that we became a
manufacturer, became the fastestgrowing manufacturer of
fiberglass pools in the US, andthen we became the first
(03:30):
franchise of fiberglass pools inthe US, and then we became the
first franchise of fiberglasspools in the US.
As I was going through thiswhole journey with River Pools,
I started a coaching companythat would teach other
organizations how to do thisthing that we were doing, and
today it's called Impact and thebook came out in 2017, called
they Ask, you Answer, and it'sdone incredibly well in all
things home services, homeimprovement.
It came out again in 2020.
But because of what happened inNovember of 2022, which you and
(03:53):
I are very, very aware of, andChatGPT and AI just really
changing the world as we know itand certainly changing sales
and marketing as we know it andthe buyer's journey as we know
it I realized I need to dosomething that's more modern and
I want to do something that'smore system-based, and from that
(04:16):
came what is Endless Customers,which is the third edition of
they Ask you Answer, but it'scalled Endless Customers and you
know I wrote this so that itwould be valid, ideally for at
least five to 10 years, whichdoesn't sound like a lot of time
, but today that's a lot of time.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
It's a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, as you know, jim, because it's very, very
hard to write anything todaythat isn't outdated tomorrow.
So, you know, you've got to bevery principle-based, you know,
with your stuff, um, but it'sbeen a crazy ride.
And uh, I am so deeplypassionate about home
improvement, of course, becauseyou know, I grew up, uh, lower
middle class.
My dad had a, you know was a,was a builder and, um, you know,
(04:55):
being a pool guy myself andliving that blue collar world
man, this is just runs deep inmy veins and my son's a, my
son's an electrician and nowhe's, he's 21.
He has his journeymans and, uh,you know he's, he's off to the
races.
So, yeah, it just runs throughme.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah, that's awesome, man, and it.
What I, what I love about yourstory is that when the
resilience came, or resiliencecame out of the pain in in the
in the recession of 2008, right,and man, everyone was
scrambling.
Right, yeah, everyone wasscrambling.
What do we do, like you know,and and a lot of times it's it's
(05:35):
when those, like you said, yourhome was facing foreclosure,
there was like that was, thatwas part of it.
It was just part of life forpeople that were around back
then and in business back then.
I love that it came from that,right, because it's like, man,
you can't stop, you can't.
Just, you know, you have tocome up with creative ideas.
(06:00):
You know there's this.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
It's like I find, Jim , whenever I know that things
are going to get hairy with theeconomy, there's a part of me
that quietly gets very excited.
Yeah, and the reason is becauseyou don't see innovation when
people are fat and happy.
(06:23):
You know, for example, from amarketing perspective, during
COVID, you didn't really see anyinnovation.
The only innovation we had was,let's say, some virtual selling
, but that was because demandwas so crazy, and so what
happened is Home Improvement,home Services, was so fat and
happy.
It's like the opposite of thebubblegum shrimp storm.
(06:45):
Right, it's like things aregood and let's just ride this
wave, but in the process ofriding that wave, oftentimes you
just don't see very muchinnovation.
There's actually a name for this, and I talk about it in the
final section of EndlessCustomers, something that's
really personal to me.
What it's called is the pridecycle, and the pride cycle
affects companies, industries,cultures, civilizations.
(07:09):
It's all over the world.
But basically, if you look atit like, everything in life is a
cycle, a circle, if you will.
At the bottom of that circle,we have pain.
At the top of that circle, youhave prosperity, and so when we
find ourselves in pain, we say,well, I don't want to continue
to be in pain.
What can I do to change?
(07:30):
Well, I need to do things thatI'm not currently doing.
I need to think outside the box.
I need to do the little things,make the extra call, send that
video or get over my feelings oropinions or whatever.
And so we start to come up theleft side of the circle and
we're doing the little thingsbecause that we get momentum.
And as we get to momentum, weget to the top of the circle,
(07:50):
which is that place ofprosperity, and because we reach
prosperity, we get happy, weget excited.
But if we're there for a while,oftentimes what's very human is
suddenly we stop doing thoselittle things, stop making the
extra call.
We stopped producing that pieceof content Now, we stopped
going the extra mile with thehomeowner and, you know, we
stopped looking for ways to doit better on the job site,
(08:13):
whatever it is.
And because of that, we start tolose momentum.
And as we lose momentum, wecome back down the right side of
the circle and then, lo andbehold, we find ourselves right
back to where we started, in theplace of pain, and that's why,
if you look at 2025, a lot offolks right now are literally
back down the circle in theplace of pain and they're saying
(08:34):
tag on it, why, why?
During COVID, did I not plantthe seeds so that I could reap
the harvest later?
But instead all we wanted to doand I'm not saying everybody,
but all the majority wanted todo was harvest during that time
period.
But eventually the field runsout and you've got to have a new
one that's growing and that'sready to be harvested, and if
not, you find yourself in aserious predicament.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
And that's the pendulum called business and the
pride cycle I love that man andit is so impactful for today.
Right, we're recording at atime where the stock market is
hitting record lows, from thetariffs, you know, stuff going
out, there's a lot of thingsgoing on.
(09:15):
But even moving into thisspring, you know, talking with a
lot of roofing contractors inthe RSRA and other places,
friends of mine, everyone's like, well, what happened to the
phone ringing so much Like whyis this happening?
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, you've got a lot of folks that are spending
more on Google ads than they'vespent in years and they're
getting less results, which, ifyou look at it, can we talk
about Google for a second Forsure, yeah, I mean, if you look
at one of the biggest byproductsof what happened in November
2022 with chat GBT, you know,within days as I was using it, I
(09:55):
said, oh yeah, google's introuble.
And Google, within days, wassaying, oh, we're in trouble too
.
This was the first time inyears, was saying, uh-oh, we're
in trouble too.
This was the first time inyears, google was meeting in the
boardroom late at night Because, generally speaking, the
leaders of an industry are theslowest to adapt or adopt new
(10:16):
practices, right, and so thereason for that is because we
don't wanna replace existingbusiness models.
For 25 years, google has beenreally fat and happy and a lot
of businesses and a lot ofmarketers could take advantage
of this beautiful little tool.
Two things it gave us it gaveus search and it gave us ads,
(10:38):
and if you knew how to play thegame, you could do really,
really well.
But what happens if that gameis no longer the game everybody
wants to play, if you look at ittoo, for a long time just being
ranked number one in searchengine results, like if you 10
years ago as you very clearlyknow, jim somebody typed in best
(11:00):
roofing contractor, buffalo,new York Well, if you showed up
number one in Google searchresults, 80 plus percent of
people would click on you.
You ruled the world.
Today, if somebody searches that, what's going to happen?
They're going to see an AIsummary.
It's going to take up more thanhalf the screen.
Then they're going to see aGoogle you know your local map.
(11:24):
That's going to take up morethan half the screen.
You're going to see relatedquestions.
That takes up a bunch of screen.
You might see some videos andthen, finally, you might see the
first result in SERPs, whichbasically means now you've gone
from an 80% open rate to lessthan 20% open rate if you're
(11:44):
number one.
So it's not the end game to benumber one.
And, of course, you've got allthese sponsored ads that are
showing above that as well.
I don't think I even mentionedthem and Google's doing
everything they can to continueto milk those sponsored ads, and
they know that a lot ofbusiness owners are getting
desperate and so, in my opinion,somewhat nefariously, showing
(12:06):
them like they're real organicresults, even though they're
forced to call them sponsoredads.
They want it to appear as muchas possible that this is
essentially old school organicsearch results, and so you've
got all these factors workingagainst you.
This is why, if you arebuilding your house on Google
and Google ads, you're buildingit on a house of sand.
(12:28):
We've known for 2000 plus yearsthat you shouldn't build your
house on sand.
This doesn't mean that Googleis at the end of its road, but I
will tell you this it is on itsdecline in terms of user
ability.
And whenever I hear and I knowyou've probably heard this too,
and I don't even know youropinion on this yet, jim, and so
we might disagree, but that'sokay, because that's what these
types of pods are for Whenever Ihear an SEO company saying this
(12:53):
is not really going to be, aiis really not going to affect
Google.
Google is as busy as it's everbeen.
You know, business is rocking.
Blah, blah, blah.
I'm like you either are veryignorant of your own industry or
you're intellectually dishonest, both of which is, to me, a
serious issue.
That is not acceptable, becauseyou can't tell me right now
(13:19):
that if you have used ChatGPT orClot or any of these main LLMs
as a as a, as a what isessentially search replacement
tool.
You can't say it's not a betterUX.
Most of us, people like you andme we like we're blowing the
dust off of Google when we goback there right now.
You know what I'm saying.
It's just not something thatwe're doing, and so we are not
(13:42):
necessarily laggards, buteverybody's going to catch up,
and so that means that you'rejust going to see that it's
going to go down.
The momentum is going to godown, which further says all
right.
For 20 plus years, we had toget recommended by two parties,
essentially as contractors byhomeowners and by Google, by
(14:06):
homeowners and by Google.
And now there's a third, andthat third is really going to
ultimately become the mostimportant, and that's AI.
And if AI is not recommendingyou, you're going to be screwed
in a few years.
And this is more challenging,though, because you're not just
going to be the.
You know you can't just strokea check and say I want to fix
this with ads, because unlessthe business models change
dramatically and I don't thinkthey will, because they're a
(14:30):
subscription model and they'remaking their money in different
ways you're not going to havethe ability just to rely on ads,
like you used to have, andyou're not going to be able to
say well, I can just manipulatea couple of keywords and show up
for search.
You're going to have to becomea known and trusted brand in the
market and you're going to haveto be willing to do things,
from a sales and marketingperspective, that haven't really
been done in your space before.
You've got to have courage,You've got to be bold, you've
(14:50):
got to be brave.
That's what Endless Customersis really all about.
I know I'm going on a littlebit of a rant here, jim, but I
just think this is a very bigdeal.
A lot of people are sleeping onit Suddenly they're going to be
.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
um, if you do not adapt, you will, uh, get your
resume ready.
That's right, as a businessowner if you, if you are not
willing to adapt, get yourresume ready because you are
going out of business.
Brand is going to be the mostimpactful thing that you can do
Now on the AI side.
What I love about AI is you canask it why it told you that.
(15:31):
So, some of the fun for everyone.
Go to ChatGPT, go to Gemini, goto Cloud, go to Perplexity, go
to all of the AI tools, go toMetas AI, go to Grok.
Go to all of them and type inbest roofing company, city,
state for your, where you'relocated, and then ask it why it
(15:52):
came up with those results andit will tell you.
And it and and it is part ofthe fundamentals of of the
fundamentals of SEO over timeare correlated in those results
in terms of it wants to know howmany times it saw you online,
how many pages are on yourwebsite, how many citations are
(16:16):
built across, when is it seeingyour name, address and phone
number across the internet froma local SEO perspective, number
across the internet from a localSEO perspective.
And also on how many reviewsyou have across the internet on
all of the platforms, not justGoogle, but all of the platforms
, mainly Google.
Still, I will say it's mainlyGoogle, but it's telling you.
(16:37):
It's telling you what you cansay.
How could I improve my presence?
And it will tell you and Iguarantee it's going to tell you
.
And so the tactics and thingsthat you did to rank in Google
may still work for a period oftime, as ChatGPT is using those
(17:01):
signals.
That's right.
So if you haven't, my goodness,you are behind the curve.
If you have not been working onthose fundamental things over
time, man, you better work onthem really, really hard.
But from a little bit differentperspective.
That trust and that brand aregoing to be much more impactful
(17:24):
in going into this.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, it really to essentially wrap up to a degree
what you just said.
To me it's like all aboutsignals, Search is all about
signals.
The more signals that we cansend out in this case to AI and
to the rest of the world thatwe're a known and trusted brand,
the more likely we are to berecommended by AI.
(17:48):
And so, to your point everyreview is a signal, every
comment is a signal, every videois a signal, every piece of
content you produce is a signal,every piece of content somebody
produces about you is a signal.
These are all signals.
This is what we mean when wesay brand, but in the, in the
past, brand really was a veryhuman thing.
(18:09):
Yes, and now you've got yourbrand with humans, but you also
have your brand with ai, andthat's hard for people to
understand, but it's, and onecould say well, they're
essentially overlapping.
Okay, find that to a degree, butthis is where we now are.
And so the question becomeswell, how do I send out more
(18:32):
signals and better signals?
And that's really what I'mtalking about in the book.
And specifically, the book is asystem.
Endless Customers is a systemthat will show you how to become
the most known and trustedbrand in your market for humans,
for search engines and for AI.
(18:52):
All right, now, with that beingthe case, we have built it
around four pillars.
Four pillars of a known andtrusted brand.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
And, if it's cool with you, I'll lay those out
here real quick.
We talked about that the otherday and I love the way you frame
this, so yeah please.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
So number one you've got as a business, you've got to
be willing to say online whatothers in your space aren't
willing to say.
That's number one.
I'll go through these four realquick and maybe we can come
back to each one.
Number two you've got to bewilling to show with video
others in your space aren'twilling to show.
Number three you got to bewilling to sell in a way that
others aren't willing to sell.
(19:29):
And then, number four, you'vegot to be willing to be more
human than others are willing tobe.
On the surface, jim, they soundreally like basic, but when you
get to the nuts and bolts of it, most companies are not doing
these things in a trulydifferent or extraordinarily
different way than theircompetitors are doing it.
(19:50):
So let's talk about the say oneSay what others aren't willing
to say.
In your space, people say allthe time it's like well, what
are you referring to, marcus?
So one thing that hasn'tchanged since I wrote they Ask
you Answer the first edition.
That is stronger than it's everbeen since I wrote they Ask you
Answer the first edition.
That is stronger than it's everbeen, and I was way ahead on
(20:13):
this.
One was there's five subjectsthat buyers want to know about
before they buy something.
Five subjects.
These five subjects have ruledSEO over the course of 20 plus
years.
They have ruled the economy ofjust search in general, in terms
of the way you and I getcomfortable with reaching out to
a company.
The things that we want tolearn and understand.
(20:33):
Here's the five subjects.
We call them the big five.
Number one as buyers, consumers, we want to know everything
about cost and price.
We want to know it, and if wecan't find it, we get pissed.
Number two we want to know, asbuyers and consumers, what could
go wrong, the negatives, theproblems We'll just call that
the problems.
When somebody's very seriousabout buying something, they
(20:54):
want to know what could go wrong.
Number three we're obsessedwith comparing stuff online.
When we are thinking aboutbuying something, when we're
researching something, we'recomparing that thing versus
another thing, because we wantto make sure we've done our due
diligence.
Number four reviews.
We all know we look at reviews.
The thing about reviews, though, is we want to know the good,
(21:15):
the bad and the ugly, not justthe good.
We want to know who's a fourand who's not four.
And then, finally, number five,we want to know best, best,
most top, et cetera.
I was talking about the big fiveabout 13 years ago.
What's wild.
If you go to, like, let's say,an Amazon page today on Amazon,
you will literally find all thebig five.
You're going to find all thecost information.
(21:38):
You're going to find theproblems by looking at the
frequently asked questions, okay.
You're going to find reviews.
You're going to see comparisonsof this product versus that
product, right, and you're goingto see best or rankings, and
this is what this is like.
This is they.
They have understood that thisis what drives psychology in
terms of the way people think,and that's the big five.
(21:59):
So I would ask someone, ifthey're listening to this right
now, I want you to think aboutthe content that you have online
.
How much of it relates to thesefive things?
How much are you addressingthese five things?
Because if you're notaddressing these five things, I
can tell you somebody is, andyour potential customers are
going to learn it from them.
They're going to learn it fromthem or they're going to learn
it from AI or both, but that'swhat's happening, and so you've
(22:23):
got and whoever they'relistening to is the expert.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So remember that, because if you are talking about
the cost of building a roof andeverything that goes into the
cost of it and why your cost iswhere it is so that you could
take care of future warrantyissues, so that you can have the
(22:53):
best team members, so that youcan have the best customer
experience, so that you canactually market your business
versus the cost of chucking atruck that is something that a
lot of people won't say is whatI'm kind of to what you're
saying, you know.
And then, before we carry onwith the episode, let's give a
shout out to one of our sponsors.
(23:13):
I talk to contractors every daythat feel stuck, not because
they're not working hard, butbecause they're missing the
structure to grow without chaosor their cultures falling apart,
because their team's unclear,unaligned or just burned out and
when change hits, they'rereacting instead of leading
(23:37):
because time and prioritiesaren't under their control.
Day 41 Thrive helps to fix thatwith proven strategies for
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(23:58):
journey today.
Your cost is where it is, sothat you can take care of future
warranty issues, so that youcan have the best team members,
so that you can have the bestteam members, so that you can
have the best customerexperience, so that you can
actually market your businessversus the cost of chucking a
(24:18):
truck.
That is something that a lot ofpeople won't say is what I'm
kind of to what you're saying,you know.
And then the problems.
Why don't no one wants to talkabout the problems, marcus?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, oh, I got so many different examples.
I've got a company that I'veworked with I talk about them in
the book actually calledSheffield Metals.
What they do is they producemetal roofing.
They're a metal roofingmanufacturer and when we started
working together we said okay,one of the most prominent
questions anybody has about ametal roof is what are the
problems with a metal roof?
You see, metal roofing is notas popular in the US as it is in
(24:57):
other places.
People are still learning aboutit, there's still doubts and
fears about it and there's a lotof ignorance.
And so they agree okay, let'sgo ahead and produce this video.
So we produced that video aboutfive years ago.
Today it's got about 630,000views for that one video 630,000
people researching problemswith a metal roof.
(25:19):
Now, if you're researching theproblems of the metal roof,
there's only two reasons A youhave a problem with your metal
roof.
B you wanna buy a metal roof.
Those are the only two peoplethat are researching that.
That's how you own aconversation.
And when it comes to cost andprice, to your point, a lot of
people completely misunderstandthis.
And in the new book which, bythe way, you can find it
(25:41):
endlesscustomerscom, if you'relistening to this
endlesscustomerscom and youshould order it because it's
going to change your life if youread it and apply it.
That's key word.
Got to execute right.
But when it comes to pricing inthe book I give what is the
example of a perfect pricingpage of your website.
And then on a perfect pricingpage of your website there's
like all these different thingsthat are covered, but there's
(26:03):
five fundamental things.
Number one what drives cost upfor your product or service?
Number two what drives costdown for your product or service
, like the factors?
Number three why are somecompanies so expensive?
Number four why are somecompanies so cheap?
Chuck in the truck.
And finally, number fiveroughly where do you fall?
Generally speaking, not exactly.
(26:25):
The problem is, jim, everybodyhears you need to talk about
cost and price.
Well, I don't want to give myexact prices or I can't give my
exact prices.
Nobody is saying that.
For the love of all, that'spure and holy.
What we're saying is that ifyou do not educate them on what
defines value when they'retrying to research, how much
does it cost to replace this newroof?
They won't know unless someonetalks about it.
(26:49):
And the issue is a lot of ushave been asked before to
explain what drives cost up,what drives cost down.
Well, you gave me a quote.
This other person gave me aquote.
Some of you are more expensive,some of you are less expensive.
Help me understand why there'sa delta in the industry.
You see, every contractorthat's listening to this right
now has answered that questionbefore.
(27:10):
The problem is, you oftentimesdon't answer it until you're
asked.
Stop waiting to be asked whenthe whole world wants to know.
80% of the buyer's journeyhappens before they reach out,
before they talk to you.
So it's your job to meet themwhere they are, not where you
want them to be.
That's a losing game.
(27:31):
This is not your sales process.
It's called a buyer's journeyfor a reason.
And the second you realize thatyou're not as nearly in control
of the buyer's journey as youwere in 1995, that's the year I
graduated high school and that'sthe year the internet just
started to kick off.
Then everything changes.
(27:52):
Everything changes and youstart to become way more
buyer-centric.
I'm obsessed like obsessed withhuman behavior, buyer behavior.
That's what I think about instupid ways all the time, and
everybody's listening to thiswhen they're on a website and
they're looking for cost andprice information and they can't
find it, they get annoyed, theyget pissed and they move on,
and they move on and they keepsearching until they find
(28:14):
someone that was willing to talkabout the thing.
Now, by the way, some of you say, well, I can't talk about it
because we tend to be moreexpensive and that will scare
them away.
Nope, sorry, home slice.
The thing that scares someoneaway is not when you educate
them well and explain to themvalue proposition.
What scares someone away in thebuyer's journey is when they're
(28:35):
ignorant and they can't get ananswer.
That's when they say I'm out,just like.
That's the reason why you sayyou're out With my pool company.
We're the first fiberglassswimming pool company in the
world to talk about how muchdoes a fiberglass pool cost, and
I wrote an article in 2009 thatis still up to this day.
It just modified.
Every single year it's made,for just my company in Virginia,
(28:57):
over $35 million in rev thatwe've tracked back to that one
piece of content.
Can you believe that, joe andJim, $35 million in rev from one
piece of content and I'll stillhave contractors to this day
say, yeah, that's not somethingI want to talk about.
Until I'm in the home.
You are not eating your own dogfood.
You're certainly not followingthe golden rule, because that's
(29:19):
not how you want to be treated.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yeah, definitely, and you're going to lose because
guess what AI is going to do.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yes, going to give that answer, that's right.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
And so you're going to lose.
If you're not willing to dothat, if you're not willing to
say what others won't say.
Say the hard things, explain it, explain the value.
You can do it at the kitchentable, that's right.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
That's right you can do it at the kitchen table,
that's right.
That's right, you can do itboth places.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Now the next one is showing what others won't show.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yes, yes, home improvement and home services
are now a video-first industry.
We have to swallow that pill.
We have to swallow that pilland, whereas I could do mostly
(30:17):
text in 2009 and dominate theworld of pools and really any
place in home improvement andyou remember those days, jim we
can't do that today.
You've got to be very, veryaggressive with video, and that
video needs to be on YouTube aslong and short form.
Instagram, facebook ReelsTikTok across the board.
We need to be doing more video,long and short form, on a
(30:41):
multiplicity of platforms.
Why?
Number one AI can now readvideo like it reads text, right,
and it's getting better everyday at that.
Number two, like it reads textright, and it's getting better
every day at that.
Number two, these are massivesignals, again, signals to
recommend your brand.
You take one video and you canrepurpose it in a multiplicity
of areas, more so than you cando a text.
By the way, right, you're notgonna go through that article
(31:04):
you wrote on freaking TikTok,but you can absolutely take that
video and you know you canreedit and you can put it across
the board in many places, right?
So that's, that's like how youneed to be thinking on this.
You need to think like a mediacompany.
Everything you do you could beshowing and you could be showing
(31:25):
better.
If you're not doing before andafter videos on every single job
, you're just being flat outlazy and you're saying I don't
want business, I don't want moreleads, I don't want to become
more known.
With your cell phone, you havea better camera than anybody in
Hollywood had 20 years ago andthe problem is you'll see people
say things like well, videos isnot my thing.
(31:46):
Really, do you believe thatBecause you go into people's
homes and you ask them for money, they got to see your face,
then they got to hear your voice.
Then Wouldn't you rather thatthey have seen and heard you and
already feel a level of trusttowards you before you're
walking up their driveway?
Of course, that's a no-brainerand you've got to be willing to
(32:09):
show the extra mile.
You can tell people.
You know nobody has attentionto detail with the way they do
their roofing like we do, butthat doesn't mean anything until
you show it.
You know I started manufacturingfiberglass pools around 2017.
We were the first manufacturerto have a full-blown demo of a
(32:34):
series of eight videos, 10minutes long each, showing
exactly how we manufactured ourpools, no other manufacturers
were willing to show it becausethey were like this is
proprietary.
I'm like proprietary, my butt,are you kidding me?
There's nothing proprietaryabout slapping glass on a mold
Come on, get out of here.
And so we finally showed it.
(32:55):
And because we showed it,homeowners around the country
were like they're the only onesthat show how they make the
saying.
And that's how we just explodedfrom a growth perspective.
Nobody was showing that.
We showed it.
What could you be showing thatthe majority of your competitors
aren't showing?
Think about when you dotear-offs.
Think about all the ugly thingsthat you see that you're like
(33:16):
how did they do that?
You should be showing that,showing it to the world, and
that's how you're going to get alot of attention.
That's how you're going to geta lot of traction.
You know, I mean the hardware.
You use the methods that you do.
Show those things becauseseeing is believing.
That was true 2,000 years ago,it's going to be true today and
it's going to be very, very truetomorrow.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
That's not going to go away.
And when you're doing this,understand what you're talking
about.
What you've talked about,marcus, is that buyer's journey.
Understand what they'rethinking.
Right, the foundation ofmarketing is who, what, how,
right, and so who you'respeaking to, so who your
(33:57):
customer is the message that youare saying to them and that
message and what resonates withthem is that right.
They don't want to just hearwe're the best.
They don't want to just hear wehave an exceptional customer
service If you're able to showthem, if you can show them.
So one of the one of the mainthings I went back through this
(34:18):
you know we've we've releasedover 250 episodes now of this
show and we went back and wewere.
I had to do.
I did a presentation for theNational Women's and roofing
organization recently and I wentback to find common threads
between all of the all of thesuccessful contractors that I
have interviewed, and it was themost common thread was that
(34:43):
they cared so much about theircustomers.
Like it was it's phenomenal howmuch they poured into and fixed
problems and like did so much,for sometimes it wasn't their
fault, right.
They did a lot right, they pourinto their customers.
So when they say on theirwebsite, we have a great, you
(35:05):
know, we're customer focused, wehave a great customer
experience, it's just words.
But what you're saying now wetake that and we show it and we
show the problems.
Show the problems and show howyou fixed it, show the solution,
show how this was a problem andnow this is how we that there
there will be not like the powerin that is is outrageous, right
(35:30):
, like.
But your words don't matter,right?
The words on your website, thewords we are well, we're better
business bureau rated a plusWell if everybody's seeing it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
It's just noise.
It's just noise.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
And so going that level deeper is what you know,
is what I'm hearing from you.
Take it that level deeper.
Like this is what everyone'ssaying, and they're saying it
for a reason because the messageresonates with the buyer, right
.
It resonates with that customeravatar, that buyer persona.
But now take that message andfilm it right.
(36:05):
Create additional contentaround it.
The other part is therepurposing of content that you
mentioned.
This is my favorite thing inthe world.
I am a repurposing addict.
Like I think you could takethat blog post, create it into a
, turn it into a video script.
Now you have the video.
Now you have, like, now youhave, you know, so many pieces
of content from that one, butall with the intention that
(36:29):
you're just talking about.
Like you said, those core fivethe cost, the problems,
comparisons, reviews and who'sthe best right, like those are
the you know.
Bringing it all back to thatNext one you talk about is
selling in a way that otherswon't sell.
What are your thoughts on this?
(36:49):
How are people not selling?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
So there's a few different ones here you and I
were talking about.
I'm going to give you someexamples.
We were talking about onebefore the call.
I don't think most peoplerealize that if you can get back
to a lead within five minutes,there's a 900% greater chance
that they'll become a contact.
So one of the most importantthings you can do right now is
(37:16):
speed to lead.
Speed to lead, in other words,how quickly do you reach out?
It's pretty stunning how manyleads come through through paid,
through, organic, whatever itis that we never talk to.
And that's because if you waitmore than five minutes, heck who
knows what happens.
Maybe their HVAC broke, ormaybe they got a call from their
kid at school and now all of asudden, they're thinking about
(37:37):
something totally different andthey won't get back into that
train of thought for another fewweeks, or if at all.
That's just the way.
That's the world that we livein.
It's your job to immediatelyhave a conversation with them.
So, like my swimming poolcompany, right now, we have an
AI that and this goes live likewithin the next few days
actually for us.
But and this is something thatyou, that you personally do, jim
(37:58):
, and I think it's really,really awesome and I didn't know
this beforehand which I thinkis a tremendous service.
It can be really I mean, you'regoing to be inundated with
demand for this, but with demandfor this, but you know, just
being able to have an AI,immediately call the person and
then the AI and, for those thathaven't heard it, ai can have
voice conversations that willshock you, that come across as
(38:22):
very, very human.
You can even hear breaths.
I mean, you can hear like it'sjust wild.
So, anyway, the way that itworks with Riverpools is the
lead comes through, weimmediately call them and we say
hi, this is Alex.
I'm an AI assistant withRiverpools.
You just filled out a form onour site saying that you want to
talk to a salesperson, and thepurpose of this call is for me
(38:43):
to schedule a time for you totalk with that salesperson.
That's it.
It's really really simple.
They have the calendar for thesalesperson that they can sync
with automatically.
And now our conversion rates,our conversation rates, can go
way, way up, because the firstcompany has a conversation with
a prospect generally wins threeout of four times.
So you want to be the fastestcompany to have that first
(39:04):
conversation.
Email doesn't count.
You need to have a conversationfirst, but in order to do that,
you need to make sure that youget them in the moment that
they're hot, and the way to dothat is to use something like AI
, and I know you've got feelingson this.
We're going to talk aboutanother one here in a second,
but I'm sure you wanted to saysomething on that one, jim,
because you're pretty passionateabout it too.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
We went through the data with our old marketing
company and 40% of leads that wegenerated for our clients were
not answered or responded to.
Yeah, that's outrageous, marcus, and we built out a lot of
(39:50):
technology to do that, likeoriginally like when a lead
comes in, we would trigger aphone call to your company If
you didn't answer now textmessages and emails and things
like that.
So we've been working on thisspeed to lead for years, but
with the implementation of voiceAI, it's so much better and so
much faster.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah and again, somebody can't understand how
good it is until they hear awell-trained system do it.
And then, all of a sudden,you're like your whole world is
like the world that I previouslyknew is no longer the world I'm
living in once you hear it,once you see it in action.
(40:29):
Another example of this comesfrom a stat that Gartner
recently shared with me, whichis 75% of all buyers say they
would prefer to have aseller-free sales experience,
which basically means we don'twant to talk to salespeople at
this point until we're very,very ready, until we're
comfortable, until we'reconfident, until we feel like
we're not going to make amistake.
And the key to that, therefore,as a business, is what we call
(40:50):
self-service.
In the book and in EndlessCustomers, there's five
self-service tools that we teachthat essentially are
interactive tools that you mighthave on your website or online,
or something that's affiliatedwith you, that someone can get
an answer that previously, ortake an action that previously
they would have had to have donethrough a human, but now they
can do it themselves on theirown terms.
(41:11):
People love that.
Let me give you some examplesof how this might work, one that
we've had a ton of success withand it doesn't work for every
company, because not everycompany has multiple salespeople
but self-scheduling tools wherethey can go to your site and
they can schedule time with asalesperson if they're
interested.
But here's the super catch tothis.
That in and of itself isn'tsuper interesting.
(41:32):
What gets crazy and we'veexperimented with this a bunch,
jim is if they can see thesalespeople at work for you
their images, their bios, maybea video about them, and then
they can choose which one theywork with.
Closing rates double everysingle time we implement this.
(41:56):
So if someone chooses asalesperson versus is given a
salesperson, there's literallyliterally 100% greater chance
that they will buy from you.
Crazy, huh.
So that I think it's nodifferent than there's a reason
why we like Uber more than taxisbecause we don't know if the
taxi is going to stink, if it'sgoing to be a terrible
(42:16):
experience, if it's going to bebeat up.
Uber's very consistent and wefeel like we had a choice in the
game.
Well, being able to choose yoursalesperson is the future of
selling.
Okay, I can tell you that rightnow.
Another example of this, whichis a mega trend and this is
already a trend in roofing we'regoing to see it throughout home
(42:38):
services.
I am completely invested inthis kind of like.
You're invested in agents.
I'm very, very invested in thisnext type of self-service tool,
which is a self-pricing tool,all right, and I call them
pricing estimators.
So the first question somebodyhas when they know they need a
new roof, first question likethey look up at the roof or they
(42:59):
look up their ceiling andthere's like a leak coming
through, or they look up andthey're like my shingles are
shot, whatever it is, firstquestion is, roughly how much is
this going to cost?
What's this going to set usback?
Are we in the game?
Can we even afford this?
Like?
These are all the questionsthat somebody has, and so if you
don't address it in that moment, many of the people, if they
can't find it, they'll stop thejourney right there and they
(43:19):
don't do further research.
If they're allowed to get thatinitial question answered are we
in the game here financially?
Then they'll start to researchcompanies.
They'll start to get furtherquestions answered.
Then they'll fill out a form ormake a call and then the sales
process starts.
Then they'll talk to asalesperson and then the final
question of the buyer's journeyis the same as the first, with
(43:39):
one deviation.
First question was, roughlywhat's it going to cost?
The final question is soexactly what's this going to
cost?
So they're the same questions.
You bookend with cost questionswhen it comes to the buyer's
journey.
So what a pricing estimator doesand I have a ton of data on
this why?
Because I started a softwarecompany called priceguideai, and
(44:00):
priceguide allows someone toquickly and easily, with the
help of AI, of course, put apricing estimator on their
website.
Now there's different types ofthese tools in the.
In the roofing industry I madethis tool for that was
specialized for anybody in homeservices.
And so if you wanted to have anestimator on your website for a
(44:21):
new roof, let's say you want tohave an estimator on your site
for replacing gutters or I don'tcare what it is.
I mean, like literally anythingfor solar, you can create
multiple estimators with thistool.
It's a series of questions, justlike if someone came to you
right now and said to you whatwould it cost for a new roof,
you'd say, oh, I can answerroughly, but I got to ask you
(44:45):
some questions.
Okay, what are the questions?
You're going to ask questionslike square footage.
You're going to ask questionslike materials, you know, and
there's going to be a series ofthings that you're going to need
to know in order to give them ageneral estimate.
Now, once they get a generalestimate, man, they are really
feeling good because they'relike oh, finally, I have a sense
for things.
They're much more likely to dobusiness with you.
Now, here's what we found andhere's the kicker to it all.
(45:06):
If someone puts an estimator ontheir homepage and they use the
call to action phrase getinstant estimate, that's the
magic phrase get instantestimate, all right, could you
say, quote yes, but I don'treally see it like a quote.
I see it as an estimate.
I think they're different,because a quote is pretty close
(45:27):
Whereas an estimate is a range,and this keeps it very, very
safe for you as a contractor.
So get instant estimate.
What we see is they experience,from that day forward, a three
to 500% lift in conversions ontheir website.
So if you're getting five leadsa week right now from your
website, you'll start getting 15the moment you put a pricing
(45:50):
estimator on your homepage withGet Instant Estimates.
That's why it's so powerful,crazy, super effective, super
super effective.
That's priceguideai.
And here's what's really reallycool about it less than $200 a
year.
There's two types of pricingestimators.
There's the kind that youcustom build, which, as you know
as a developer, generally costswell into the thousands.
(46:11):
Like I got a company Impact.
We build custom estimators too,but they usually cost somewhere
between 15 to 25K.
Now, sometimes that's what acompany needs.
They're great and they can beeven more customized, but you
could have one working for youin 30 minutes or less and it
costs you $200 a year, and itimmediately, immediately,
(46:33):
generates leads.
You wouldn't have gotten.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
It drives me crazy, the pushback that people have
about this.
So I have a background in themortgage industry.
I've owned mortgage companiesand maybe it was legislatively
forced on the mortgage industry.
But there is something called agood faith estimate and it's
(46:57):
been a part of the mortgageindustry for decades now and
it's because that's what peoplewant to see.
They want to see what's the.
This is a big purchase.
That's what people want to see.
They want to see what's the.
This is a big purchase.
A pool, a roof, you know,remodeling your kitchen, you're
(47:18):
building a deck Like these arebig, big purchases, man.
Like this isn't an impulse buy,you know.
And so having that good faithestimate, um and so, so having
that good faith estimate, for meit's like, yeah, that's what
you do.
Like you, you can create thisgood faith estimate.
Like you said, there's a lot oftools that are starting to to
(47:38):
be able to do this.
Yours and Roofful and and andother ones out there that are
like the in the roofing industry.
They're starting to do this.
But like that's what people pushback, like I don't want, I
don't want the customer to know.
Well, what if something'sdifferent?
I know you're enjoying theepisode, but let's give a shout
out to another one of oursponsors.
As a roofing marketing agencyowner and coach, I've seen it
(47:58):
all Great marketing wastedbecause no one follows up fast
enough.
That's why I built Power UpAgents, not just a receptionist.
Our AI handles the entirecustomer journey, from answering
the first call to booking thejob to post job surveys and
reviews 24-7, inbound, outbound,even multilingual.
(48:21):
If you want leads followed upinstantly and customers nurtured
automatically, visit the linkin the description or visit the
sponsors page on the RoofingSuccess Podcast website.
Your full AI team is ready.
People push back like I don'twant the customer to know.
(48:46):
Well, what if something'sdifferent?
What if I go out there and thedecking's rotted?
Well then, the decking's rottedand you tell them you couldn't
see it right.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
That's why it's called an estimate An estimate.
It's like.
What's wild to me is youliterally have a chance tonight,
if you add this tool, to get 3xthe number of leads you're
getting right now.
So if you said to me, marcus,we have more leads than we can
take right now, I'd say fine.
But if you're saying at all, wewant more leads and you're out
(49:20):
there spending who knows howmuch on paid ads, on paid ads,
why in the world would you notcreate such a simple experience
that you would triple the leadsjust from your existing traffic?
It is beyond my realm ofunderstanding and I feel like
I'm pretty open to understand alot of things.
That one I don't understand, soit's a no-brainer.
(49:43):
You should do it.
There's three other types ofself-service tools.
Those are two of them, but Ican tell you this and I'm going
to make a promise Everybody'slistening to this right now
Within the next five years, 90%of roofing contractors that have
a website okay, in other words,real businesses that have a
website are going to have apricing estimator on said
(50:06):
website.
90%, mark my words.
Take it to the bank.
It will be a part of homeservices.
Every homeowner will expect it,and if they can't find it,
they'll move to the next websitethat does.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
Definitely.
And just on another point, onthe pushback, if you're a
contractor, you have done achange order.
That is a difference betweenyour original bid and what
happened right, like it canhappen at any time.
Don't be, don't shy away fromit.
And it's what people want right?
Don't shy away from it, andit's what people want, right.
(50:45):
So now we talked a little bitabout AI, but now we're saying
that the fourth component hereis be more, be more human.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
You can use technology to be way more human,
and I think that's a bigmisnomer out there that using
tech means that we're less human.
It's not.
Let me give you just somereally, really simple examples.
When we get a lead, it'sassigned to a salesperson.
The salesperson thenimmediately sends a one-to-one
video to the prospect.
Okay, so the prospectimmediately sees their face,
(51:18):
immediately sees their face,hears the voice, gets to know
them early, early in the game.
That's an example of somethingthat's different.
What's wild to me is the amountof contractors that the
homeowner doesn't know what thesalesperson looks like until
they're walking up the driveway.
Come on, y'all.
We could do so much better thanthat.
(51:41):
Also, when somebody thinks aboutyour company, name your brand,
what face do they see?
Who's the Colonel Sanders ofyour brand?
If you don't have one, wellthen you.
If you're listening to this,you probably should be, but if
you don't have one, it meansthat you're not putting yourself
out there.
Get from behind the desk, getfrom behind the camera and put
(52:03):
yourself on the camera.
That's your fiduciary.
Listen.
You ask people for their moneyin exchange for a good or a
service.
The least you could do was toshow them who they're going to
give their money to.
So like, literally, that's whatyou signed up for as an
entrepreneur, and so put yourface out there much more with
(52:28):
video.
That's just one more example toit, and there's other examples
as well.
One of them, which is hard for alot of people to fathom, is
going to be digital avatars.
When you come to theRiverpool's website, probably
six to 12 months from today,you're going to be greeted,
(52:48):
instead of that traditional chatbot in the bottom corner, by
what is a person that looks likethey're on Zoom and you can
expand it and they'll talk toyou just like you're having a
Zoom call.
But that person is going to beone of our digital avatars.
Might look like me, might looklike one of my business partners
of our digital avatars.
Might look like me, might looklike one of my business partners
(53:08):
, and it's going to say to youliterally, it's going to say to
you and I can say this to you,jim, because you get it, you see
the vision.
A lot of folks here still can'tfathom it, but as soon as you
come to the site, it's going tosay hey, welcome to River Pools,
I'm Digital Marcus.
I'm not the real Marcus, I'mhis AI avatar.
I'm using his brain all theinformation that he's ever put
(53:29):
online about pools to answeryour questions right now.
So we've got two options.
You can ask me any question.
You can say it out loud, or youcan type it in the little box
below and I'll just give you theanswers.
Or, if you'd like, I could evengive you an estimate right now.
Or, if you'd like, I could evengive you an estimate right now.
That's where we're headed.
(53:49):
Now somebody listening to thismight say, well, that's not very
human, that's an AI.
Okay, look at it like this.
If somebody comes to yourwebsite and just reads a bunch
of words on a screen, or if theytalk to someone that looks
literally just like you, soundsliterally just like you, has
(54:11):
your mannerisms even becauseyou've trained it well is using
your brain, in other words, theinformation that you've produced
on this subject, and is havingfull-blown conversations with
your leads before you ever meetthem, you tell me which one's
more human with your leads.
Before you ever meet them, youtell me which one's more human.
So, yeah, that's where we'reheaded and that's hard for
(54:32):
people to understand, but that'swhere we're headed.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
It is, and it will come faster than you think.
So now let's get people real.
Like we both went through the2008 times and the crash.
Both of us were about the sameage.
We saw the tech boom.
(54:55):
We saw the internet explode.
We've seen the changes overtime in it.
Right now, we may be in arecessionary time period
economically.
We're also combining that withthis enormous change, enormous
(55:16):
change from a technologicalperspective.
You know a lot of thesecontractors.
A lot of contractors are goingto fall right.
There's going to be a lot ofchallenges for them.
If you could wave a magic wandand guide them through three to
five things that they couldstart working on today to make
(55:39):
sure that they are here in fiveyears, what would that be?
Speaker 2 (55:43):
Yeah, I'd say number one change your mindset.
Your mindset needs to bethere's tremendous opportunity
right now, and the technology isa beautiful thing that can help
me.
If you want to sit there andsay this is bad and this is the
terminator, I can tell you.
I learned a long time ago don'tlet personal opinion screw up
(56:06):
smart business decisions.
And so, even if this thing'sthe Terminator and it's going to
end the world in 25 years, well, I want my business to be
successful between now and thatpoint in time.
So let's make sure that ourmindset is such that, hey, I am
going to learn these things, Ican learn these things and I am
(56:29):
going to get in the AI sandbox.
It's one of the first thingsthat you need to do.
And you say, well, what do Ieven do when I get there?
Just do this Go to ChatGPT andsay, hey, ChatGPT, here's my
name, here's my business, here'smy name, here's my business.
(56:50):
I have no idea how to use youto help me.
Can you help me understand waysthat I can use you to improve
my business and my life?
And then just let it go, baby,and you're going to start to
learn a lot and learn every day.
So get in the sandbox, start toplay, start to build.
That's number one.
Number two start seeingyourself as a media company.
Every job site there should bevideo coming from it.
(57:10):
Your phone needs to become yourbest friend and just fall
forward when it comes to video.
It's not going to be perfect,it's going to be clunky, it's
going to be messy, but you haveto do a lot more video and all
of its facets than you're doingright now.
You must think that way.
And finally, number threeembrace self-service.
(57:33):
Just do it.
Put that pricing estimator onyour website with a tool like
Price Guide or something like it.
Whether it's a roof hole orsomething else, these are the
game changers.
It's what homeowners want.
This is how you can start togenerate immediate leads.
You're the game changers.
It's what homeowners want.
This is how you can start togenerate immediate leads.
You're going to do it.
The question is, are you goingto wait until your competitors
do it and then you react, or areyou going to do it first and
(57:54):
they're going to react to you?
Because one last thing I'll sayabout this the rule breakers
always become the rule makersand everybody else becomes the
rule followers.
And I can tell you, that's nota very fun place to be.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
Awesome man, Thanks for your time today.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Speaker 3 (58:12):
Thank you for tuning into the Roofing Success Podcast
For more valuable content.
Visit roofingsuccesspodcastcomWhile there.
Check out our sponsors forexclusive offers, shop for
merchandise and sign up for ournewsletter for industry updates
and tips.
Also join the Roofing SuccessFacebook group to connect with
other professionals and stayupdated on the latest trends.
(58:33):
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, like, share
and leave a comment.
Your support helps us continueto bring you top industry
insights.
The website link is in thedescription.
Thanks for listening.
Are you building your roofing business on a marketing
model that's about to collapse?
Marcus Sheridan, the legendaryauthor of they Ask you Answer,
is back this time with a warningand a roadmap for contractors
trying to survive the newdigital era, and a new book
Endless Customers.
Ai is changing search, killingthe old SEO playbook and pushing
(00:23):
Google into decline, and ifyour roofing company isn't
adapting, you're about to beinvisible to customers.
In this episode, marcus breaksdown the four pillars of
creating a brand.
Ai will trust and recommend,starting with why you must start
saying what your competitorswon't, the video strategy that
(00:46):
will separate winners fromeveryone else, why you need a
self-service experience for yourbuyers today.
And how to actually be morehuman in a tech-driven world.
So if you're struggling withlead generation, watching lead
costs rise or still clinging toold school sales strategies,
this is an episode that willshake you up and get you future
(01:09):
ready.
Let's dive in to how to createendless customers with Marcus
Sheridan.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
roofing business.
Marcus Sheridan, how?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
are you today, yo Jim ?
It's going to be a good day.
Excited about this conversation, buddy.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, man, it's always good, Really excited to
have you on.
You know you've been around theroofing industry for a few
years now, speaking at RoofingProcess Conference a few times.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, good old Dimitri, for a few years now,
speaking at Roofing ProcessConference.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
A few times I've known you from the agency side
of things also, and in your bookthey Ask you Answer what's been
going on.
Give the audience a little bitof an overview if they're not
familiar with Marcus Sheridan.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, and let me take it all the way back just real
quick for everybody.
I started as a pool guy swingpool company called River Pools,
2001, just fighting to grow thebusiness, just like everybody
here that's listening.
And 2008, 2009, we get thecrash.
Good thing about crashes andhard times is they create strong
men and women.
And so it was during that timethat I really said you know, I
(02:20):
got nothing to lose and let'sreally learn about this thing
called the internet.
And I did, and as I studied, Iwas like you know, basically
what I'm reading over and overagain is I just obsess over my
buyer, their questions, fears,worries, concerns, and I'm
willing to address those onlinethrough text, through video.
I might save my business.
So I said, well, again, I hadnothing to lose here, because I
(02:43):
was already looking at losing myhome and I thought it was like
a really scary time, but again,it was pretty exciting too.
So that's when I said we'regoing to become the best
teachers in the world when itcomes to, in our case,
fiberglass pools.
And I brainstormed all thequestions I'd ever received and
there was hundreds of questionsand then I started answering
(03:05):
them, along with my businesspartners, and we did it through
text and video, on our websitemainly, and on YouTube, and, to
make a long story short, webecame the most trafficked
swimming pool website in theworld and it was quite
extraordinary and we explodedEventually.
We started getting so manyleads that we became a
manufacturer, became the fastestgrowing manufacturer of
fiberglass pools in the US, andthen we became the first
(03:30):
franchise of fiberglass pools inthe US, and then we became the
first franchise of fiberglasspools in the US.
As I was going through thiswhole journey with River Pools,
I started a coaching companythat would teach other
organizations how to do thisthing that we were doing, and
today it's called Impact and thebook came out in 2017, called
they Ask, you Answer, and it'sdone incredibly well in all
things home services, homeimprovement.
It came out again in 2020.
But because of what happened inNovember of 2022, which you and
(03:53):
I are very, very aware of, andChatGPT and AI just really
changing the world as we know itand certainly changing sales
and marketing as we know it andthe buyer's journey as we know
it I realized I need to dosomething that's more modern and
I want to do something that'smore system-based, and from that
(04:16):
came what is Endless Customers,which is the third edition of
they Ask you Answer, but it'scalled Endless Customers and you
know I wrote this so that itwould be valid, ideally for at
least five to 10 years, whichdoesn't sound like a lot of time
, but today that's a lot of time.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
It's a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, as you know, jim, because it's very, very
hard to write anything todaythat isn't outdated tomorrow.
So, you know, you've got to bevery principle-based, you know,
with your stuff, um, but it'sbeen a crazy ride.
And uh, I am so deeplypassionate about home
improvement, of course, becauseyou know, I grew up, uh, lower
middle class.
My dad had a, you know was a,was a builder and, um, you know,
(04:55):
being a pool guy myself andliving that blue collar world
man, this is just runs deep inmy veins and my son's a, my
son's an electrician and nowhe's, he's 21.
He has his journeymans and, uh,you know he's, he's off to the
races.
So, yeah, it just runs throughme.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Yeah, that's awesome, man, and it.
What I, what I love about yourstory is that when the
resilience came, or resiliencecame out of the pain in in the
in the recession of 2008, right,and man, everyone was
scrambling.
Right, yeah, everyone wasscrambling.
What do we do, like you know,and and a lot of times it's it's
(05:35):
when those, like you said, yourhome was facing foreclosure,
there was like that was, thatwas part of it.
It was just part of life forpeople that were around back
then and in business back then.
I love that it came from that,right, because it's like, man,
you can't stop, you can't.
Just, you know, you have tocome up with creative ideas.
(06:00):
You know there's this.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
It's like I find, Jim , whenever I know that things
are going to get hairy with theeconomy, there's a part of me
that quietly gets very excited.
Yeah, and the reason is becauseyou don't see innovation when
people are fat and happy.
(06:23):
You know, for example, from amarketing perspective, during
COVID, you didn't really see anyinnovation.
The only innovation we had was,let's say, some virtual selling
, but that was because demandwas so crazy, and so what
happened is Home Improvement,home Services, was so fat and
happy.
It's like the opposite of thebubblegum shrimp storm.
(06:45):
Right, it's like things aregood and let's just ride this
wave, but in the process ofriding that wave, oftentimes you
just don't see very muchinnovation.
There's actually a name for this, and I talk about it in the
final section of EndlessCustomers, something that's
really personal to me.
What it's called is the pridecycle, and the pride cycle
affects companies, industries,cultures, civilizations.
(07:09):
It's all over the world.
But basically, if you look atit like, everything in life is a
cycle, a circle, if you will.
At the bottom of that circle,we have pain.
At the top of that circle, youhave prosperity, and so when we
find ourselves in pain, we say,well, I don't want to continue
to be in pain.
What can I do to change?
(07:30):
Well, I need to do things thatI'm not currently doing.
I need to think outside the box.
I need to do the little things,make the extra call, send that
video or get over my feelings oropinions or whatever.
And so we start to come up theleft side of the circle and
we're doing the little thingsbecause that we get momentum.
And as we get to momentum, weget to the top of the circle,
(07:50):
which is that place ofprosperity, and because we reach
prosperity, we get happy, weget excited.
But if we're there for a while,oftentimes what's very human is
suddenly we stop doing thoselittle things, stop making the
extra call.
We stopped producing that pieceof content Now, we stopped
going the extra mile with thehomeowner and, you know, we
stopped looking for ways to doit better on the job site,
(08:13):
whatever it is.
And because of that, we start tolose momentum.
And as we lose momentum, wecome back down the right side of
the circle and then, lo andbehold, we find ourselves right
back to where we started, in theplace of pain, and that's why,
if you look at 2025, a lot offolks right now are literally
back down the circle in theplace of pain and they're saying
(08:34):
tag on it, why, why?
During COVID, did I not plantthe seeds so that I could reap
the harvest later?
But instead all we wanted to doand I'm not saying everybody,
but all the majority wanted todo was harvest during that time
period.
But eventually the field runsout and you've got to have a new
one that's growing and that'sready to be harvested, and if
not, you find yourself in aserious predicament.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
And that's the pendulum called business and the
pride cycle I love that man andit is so impactful for today.
Right, we're recording at atime where the stock market is
hitting record lows, from thetariffs, you know, stuff going
out, there's a lot of thingsgoing on.
(09:15):
But even moving into thisspring, you know, talking with a
lot of roofing contractors inthe RSRA and other places,
friends of mine, everyone's like, well, what happened to the
phone ringing so much Like whyis this happening?
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, you've got a lot of folks that are spending
more on Google ads than they'vespent in years and they're
getting less results, which, ifyou look at it, can we talk
about Google for a second Forsure, yeah, I mean, if you look
at one of the biggest byproductsof what happened in November
2022 with chat GBT, you know,within days as I was using it, I
(09:55):
said, oh yeah, google's introuble.
And Google, within days, wassaying, oh, we're in trouble too
.
This was the first time inyears, was saying, uh-oh, we're
in trouble too.
This was the first time inyears, google was meeting in the
boardroom late at night Because, generally speaking, the
leaders of an industry are theslowest to adapt or adopt new
(10:16):
practices, right, and so thereason for that is because we
don't wanna replace existingbusiness models.
For 25 years, google has beenreally fat and happy and a lot
of businesses and a lot ofmarketers could take advantage
of this beautiful little tool.
Two things it gave us it gaveus search and it gave us ads,
(10:38):
and if you knew how to play thegame, you could do really,
really well.
But what happens if that gameis no longer the game everybody
wants to play, if you look at ittoo, for a long time just being
ranked number one in searchengine results, like if you 10
years ago as you very clearlyknow, jim somebody typed in best
(11:00):
roofing contractor, buffalo,new York Well, if you showed up
number one in Google searchresults, 80 plus percent of
people would click on you.
You ruled the world.
Today, if somebody searches that, what's going to happen?
They're going to see an AIsummary.
It's going to take up more thanhalf the screen.
Then they're going to see aGoogle you know your local map.
(11:24):
That's going to take up morethan half the screen.
You're going to see relatedquestions.
That takes up a bunch of screen.
You might see some videos andthen, finally, you might see the
first result in SERPs, whichbasically means now you've gone
from an 80% open rate to lessthan 20% open rate if you're
(11:44):
number one.
So it's not the end game to benumber one.
And, of course, you've got allthese sponsored ads that are
showing above that as well.
I don't think I even mentionedthem and Google's doing
everything they can to continueto milk those sponsored ads, and
they know that a lot ofbusiness owners are getting
desperate and so, in my opinion,somewhat nefariously, showing
(12:06):
them like they're real organicresults, even though they're
forced to call them sponsoredads.
They want it to appear as muchas possible that this is
essentially old school organicsearch results, and so you've
got all these factors workingagainst you.
This is why, if you arebuilding your house on Google
and Google ads, you're buildingit on a house of sand.
(12:28):
We've known for 2000 plus yearsthat you shouldn't build your
house on sand.
This doesn't mean that Googleis at the end of its road, but I
will tell you this it is on itsdecline in terms of user
ability.
And whenever I hear and I knowyou've probably heard this too,
and I don't even know youropinion on this yet, jim, and so
we might disagree, but that'sokay, because that's what these
types of pods are for Whenever Ihear an SEO company saying this
(12:53):
is not really going to be, aiis really not going to affect
Google.
Google is as busy as it's everbeen.
You know, business is rocking.
Blah, blah, blah.
I'm like you either are veryignorant of your own industry or
you're intellectually dishonest, both of which is, to me, a
serious issue.
That is not acceptable, becauseyou can't tell me right now
(13:19):
that if you have used ChatGPT orClot or any of these main LLMs
as a as a, as a what isessentially search replacement
tool.
You can't say it's not a betterUX.
Most of us, people like you andme we like we're blowing the
dust off of Google when we goback there right now.
You know what I'm saying.
It's just not something thatwe're doing, and so we are not
(13:42):
necessarily laggards, buteverybody's going to catch up,
and so that means that you'rejust going to see that it's
going to go down.
The momentum is going to godown, which further says all
right.
For 20 plus years, we had toget recommended by two parties,
essentially as contractors byhomeowners and by Google, by
(14:06):
homeowners and by Google.
And now there's a third, andthat third is really going to
ultimately become the mostimportant, and that's AI.
And if AI is not recommendingyou, you're going to be screwed
in a few years.
And this is more challenging,though, because you're not just
going to be the.
You know you can't just strokea check and say I want to fix
this with ads, because unlessthe business models change
dramatically and I don't thinkthey will, because they're a
(14:30):
subscription model and they'remaking their money in different
ways you're not going to havethe ability just to rely on ads,
like you used to have, andyou're not going to be able to
say well, I can just manipulatea couple of keywords and show up
for search.
You're going to have to becomea known and trusted brand in the
market and you're going to haveto be willing to do things,
from a sales and marketingperspective, that haven't really
been done in your space before.
You've got to have courage,You've got to be bold, you've
(14:50):
got to be brave.
That's what Endless Customersis really all about.
I know I'm going on a littlebit of a rant here, jim, but I
just think this is a very bigdeal.
A lot of people are sleeping onit Suddenly they're going to be
.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
um, if you do not adapt, you will, uh, get your
resume ready.
That's right, as a businessowner if you, if you are not
willing to adapt, get yourresume ready because you are
going out of business.
Brand is going to be the mostimpactful thing that you can do
Now on the AI side.
What I love about AI is you canask it why it told you that.
(15:31):
So, some of the fun for everyone.
Go to ChatGPT, go to Gemini, goto Cloud, go to Perplexity, go
to all of the AI tools, go toMetas AI, go to Grok.
Go to all of them and type inbest roofing company, city,
state for your, where you'relocated, and then ask it why it
(15:52):
came up with those results andit will tell you.
And it and and it is part ofthe fundamentals of of the
fundamentals of SEO over timeare correlated in those results
in terms of it wants to know howmany times it saw you online,
how many pages are on yourwebsite, how many citations are
(16:16):
built across, when is it seeingyour name, address and phone
number across the internet froma local SEO perspective, number
across the internet from a localSEO perspective.
And also on how many reviewsyou have across the internet on
all of the platforms, not justGoogle, but all of the platforms
, mainly Google.
Still, I will say it's mainlyGoogle, but it's telling you.
(16:37):
It's telling you what you cansay.
How could I improve my presence?
And it will tell you and Iguarantee it's going to tell you
.
And so the tactics and thingsthat you did to rank in Google
may still work for a period oftime, as ChatGPT is using those
(17:01):
signals.
That's right.
So if you haven't, my goodness,you are behind the curve.
If you have not been working onthose fundamental things over
time, man, you better work onthem really, really hard.
But from a little bit differentperspective.
That trust and that brand aregoing to be much more impactful
(17:24):
in going into this.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, it really to essentially wrap up to a degree
what you just said.
To me it's like all aboutsignals, Search is all about
signals.
The more signals that we cansend out in this case to AI and
to the rest of the world thatwe're a known and trusted brand,
the more likely we are to berecommended by AI.
(17:48):
And so, to your point everyreview is a signal, every
comment is a signal, every videois a signal, every piece of
content you produce is a signal,every piece of content somebody
produces about you is a signal.
These are all signals.
This is what we mean when wesay brand, but in the, in the
past, brand really was a veryhuman thing.
(18:09):
Yes, and now you've got yourbrand with humans, but you also
have your brand with ai, andthat's hard for people to
understand, but it's, and onecould say well, they're
essentially overlapping.
Okay, find that to a degree, butthis is where we now are.
And so the question becomeswell, how do I send out more
(18:32):
signals and better signals?
And that's really what I'mtalking about in the book.
And specifically, the book is asystem.
Endless Customers is a systemthat will show you how to become
the most known and trustedbrand in your market for humans,
for search engines and for AI.
(18:52):
All right, now, with that beingthe case, we have built it
around four pillars.
Four pillars of a known andtrusted brand.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
And, if it's cool with you, I'll lay those out
here real quick.
We talked about that the otherday and I love the way you frame
this, so yeah please.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
So number one you've got as a business, you've got to
be willing to say online whatothers in your space aren't
willing to say.
That's number one.
I'll go through these four realquick and maybe we can come
back to each one.
Number two you've got to bewilling to show with video
others in your space aren'twilling to show.
Number three you got to bewilling to sell in a way that
others aren't willing to sell.
(19:29):
And then, number four, you'vegot to be willing to be more
human than others are willing tobe.
On the surface, jim, they soundreally like basic, but when you
get to the nuts and bolts of it, most companies are not doing
these things in a trulydifferent or extraordinarily
different way than theircompetitors are doing it.
(19:50):
So let's talk about the say oneSay what others aren't willing
to say.
In your space, people say allthe time it's like well, what
are you referring to, marcus?
So one thing that hasn'tchanged since I wrote they Ask
you Answer the first edition.
That is stronger than it's everbeen since I wrote they Ask you
Answer the first edition.
That is stronger than it's everbeen, and I was way ahead on
(20:13):
this.
One was there's five subjectsthat buyers want to know about
before they buy something.
Five subjects.
These five subjects have ruledSEO over the course of 20 plus
years.
They have ruled the economy ofjust search in general, in terms
of the way you and I getcomfortable with reaching out to
a company.
The things that we want tolearn and understand.
(20:33):
Here's the five subjects.
We call them the big five.
Number one as buyers, consumers, we want to know everything
about cost and price.
We want to know it, and if wecan't find it, we get pissed.
Number two we want to know, asbuyers and consumers, what could
go wrong, the negatives, theproblems We'll just call that
the problems.
When somebody's very seriousabout buying something, they
(20:54):
want to know what could go wrong.
Number three we're obsessedwith comparing stuff online.
When we are thinking aboutbuying something, when we're
researching something, we'recomparing that thing versus
another thing, because we wantto make sure we've done our due
diligence.
Number four reviews.
We all know we look at reviews.
The thing about reviews, though, is we want to know the good,
(21:15):
the bad and the ugly, not justthe good.
We want to know who's a fourand who's not four.
And then, finally, number five,we want to know best, best,
most top, et cetera.
I was talking about the big fiveabout 13 years ago.
What's wild.
If you go to, like, let's say,an Amazon page today on Amazon,
you will literally find all thebig five.
You're going to find all thecost information.
(21:38):
You're going to find theproblems by looking at the
frequently asked questions, okay.
You're going to find reviews.
You're going to see comparisonsof this product versus that
product, right, and you're goingto see best or rankings, and
this is what this is like.
This is they.
They have understood that thisis what drives psychology in
terms of the way people think,and that's the big five.
(21:59):
So I would ask someone, ifthey're listening to this right
now, I want you to think aboutthe content that you have online
.
How much of it relates to thesefive things?
How much are you addressingthese five things?
Because if you're notaddressing these five things, I
can tell you somebody is, andyour potential customers are
going to learn it from them.
They're going to learn it fromthem or they're going to learn
it from AI or both, but that'swhat's happening, and so you've
(22:23):
got and whoever they'relistening to is the expert.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So remember that, because if you are talking about
the cost of building a roof andeverything that goes into the
cost of it and why your cost iswhere it is so that you could
take care of future warrantyissues, so that you can have the
(22:53):
best team members, so that youcan have the best customer
experience, so that you canactually market your business
versus the cost of chucking atruck that is something that a
lot of people won't say is whatI'm kind of to what you're
saying, you know.
And then, before we carry onwith the episode, let's give a
shout out to one of our sponsors.
(23:13):
I talk to contractors every daythat feel stuck, not because
they're not working hard, butbecause they're missing the
structure to grow without chaosor their cultures falling apart,
because their team's unclear,unaligned or just burned out and
when change hits, they'rereacting instead of leading
(23:37):
because time and prioritiesaren't under their control.
Day 41 Thrive helps to fix thatwith proven strategies for
growth, culture and leadershipthat actually work, ready to
thrive beyond the storm.
Visit the link in thedescription or visit the Roofing
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(23:58):
journey today.
Your cost is where it is, sothat you can take care of future
warranty issues, so that youcan have the best team members,
so that you can have the bestteam members, so that you can
have the best customerexperience, so that you can
actually market your businessversus the cost of chucking a
(24:18):
truck.
That is something that a lot ofpeople won't say is what I'm
kind of to what you're saying,you know.
And then the problems.
Why don't no one wants to talkabout the problems, marcus?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, oh, I got so many different examples.
I've got a company that I'veworked with I talk about them in
the book actually calledSheffield Metals.
What they do is they producemetal roofing.
They're a metal roofingmanufacturer and when we started
working together we said okay,one of the most prominent
questions anybody has about ametal roof is what are the
problems with a metal roof?
You see, metal roofing is notas popular in the US as it is in
(24:57):
other places.
People are still learning aboutit, there's still doubts and
fears about it and there's a lotof ignorance.
And so they agree okay, let'sgo ahead and produce this video.
So we produced that video aboutfive years ago.
Today it's got about 630,000views for that one video 630,000
people researching problemswith a metal roof.
(25:19):
Now, if you're researching theproblems of the metal roof,
there's only two reasons A youhave a problem with your metal
roof.
B you wanna buy a metal roof.
Those are the only two peoplethat are researching that.
That's how you own aconversation.
And when it comes to cost andprice, to your point, a lot of
people completely misunderstandthis.
And in the new book which, bythe way, you can find it
(25:41):
endlesscustomerscom, if you'relistening to this
endlesscustomerscom and youshould order it because it's
going to change your life if youread it and apply it.
That's key word.
Got to execute right.
But when it comes to pricing inthe book I give what is the
example of a perfect pricingpage of your website.
And then on a perfect pricingpage of your website there's
like all these different thingsthat are covered, but there's
(26:03):
five fundamental things.
Number one what drives cost upfor your product or service?
Number two what drives costdown for your product or service
, like the factors?
Number three why are somecompanies so expensive?
Number four why are somecompanies so cheap?
Chuck in the truck.
And finally, number fiveroughly where do you fall?
Generally speaking, not exactly.
(26:25):
The problem is, jim, everybodyhears you need to talk about
cost and price.
Well, I don't want to give myexact prices or I can't give my
exact prices.
Nobody is saying that.
For the love of all, that'spure and holy.
What we're saying is that ifyou do not educate them on what
defines value when they'retrying to research, how much
does it cost to replace this newroof?
They won't know unless someonetalks about it.
(26:49):
And the issue is a lot of ushave been asked before to
explain what drives cost up,what drives cost down.
Well, you gave me a quote.
This other person gave me aquote.
Some of you are more expensive,some of you are less expensive.
Help me understand why there'sa delta in the industry.
You see, every contractorthat's listening to this right
now has answered that questionbefore.
(27:10):
The problem is, you oftentimesdon't answer it until you're
asked.
Stop waiting to be asked whenthe whole world wants to know.
80% of the buyer's journeyhappens before they reach out,
before they talk to you.
So it's your job to meet themwhere they are, not where you
want them to be.
That's a losing game.
(27:31):
This is not your sales process.
It's called a buyer's journeyfor a reason.
And the second you realize thatyou're not as nearly in control
of the buyer's journey as youwere in 1995, that's the year I
graduated high school and that'sthe year the internet just
started to kick off.
Then everything changes.
(27:52):
Everything changes and youstart to become way more
buyer-centric.
I'm obsessed like obsessed withhuman behavior, buyer behavior.
That's what I think about instupid ways all the time, and
everybody's listening to thiswhen they're on a website and
they're looking for cost andprice information and they can't
find it, they get annoyed, theyget pissed and they move on,
and they move on and they keepsearching until they find
(28:14):
someone that was willing to talkabout the thing.
Now, by the way, some of you say, well, I can't talk about it
because we tend to be moreexpensive and that will scare
them away.
Nope, sorry, home slice.
The thing that scares someoneaway is not when you educate
them well and explain to themvalue proposition.
What scares someone away in thebuyer's journey is when they're
(28:35):
ignorant and they can't get ananswer.
That's when they say I'm out,just like.
That's the reason why you sayyou're out With my pool company.
We're the first fiberglassswimming pool company in the
world to talk about how muchdoes a fiberglass pool cost, and
I wrote an article in 2009 thatis still up to this day.
It just modified.
Every single year it's made,for just my company in Virginia,
(28:57):
over $35 million in rev thatwe've tracked back to that one
piece of content.
Can you believe that, joe andJim, $35 million in rev from one
piece of content and I'll stillhave contractors to this day
say, yeah, that's not somethingI want to talk about.
Until I'm in the home.
You are not eating your own dogfood.
You're certainly not followingthe golden rule, because that's
(29:19):
not how you want to be treated.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yeah, definitely, and you're going to lose because
guess what AI is going to do.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yes, going to give that answer, that's right.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
And so you're going to lose.
If you're not willing to dothat, if you're not willing to
say what others won't say.
Say the hard things, explain it, explain the value.
You can do it at the kitchentable, that's right.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
That's right you can do it at the kitchen table,
that's right.
That's right, you can do itboth places.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Now the next one is showing what others won't show.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yes, yes, home improvement and home services
are now a video-first industry.
We have to swallow that pill.
We have to swallow that pilland, whereas I could do mostly
(30:17):
text in 2009 and dominate theworld of pools and really any
place in home improvement andyou remember those days, jim we
can't do that today.
You've got to be very, veryaggressive with video, and that
video needs to be on YouTube aslong and short form.
Instagram, facebook ReelsTikTok across the board.
We need to be doing more video,long and short form, on a
(30:41):
multiplicity of platforms.
Why?
Number one AI can now readvideo like it reads text, right,
and it's getting better everyday at that.
Number two, like it reads textright, and it's getting better
every day at that.
Number two, these are massivesignals, again, signals to
recommend your brand.
You take one video and you canrepurpose it in a multiplicity
of areas, more so than you cando a text.
By the way, right, you're notgonna go through that article
(31:04):
you wrote on freaking TikTok,but you can absolutely take that
video and you know you canreedit and you can put it across
the board in many places, right?
So that's, that's like how youneed to be thinking on this.
You need to think like a mediacompany.
Everything you do you could beshowing and you could be showing
(31:25):
better.
If you're not doing before andafter videos on every single job
, you're just being flat outlazy and you're saying I don't
want business, I don't want moreleads, I don't want to become
more known.
With your cell phone, you havea better camera than anybody in
Hollywood had 20 years ago andthe problem is you'll see people
say things like well, videos isnot my thing.
(31:46):
Really, do you believe thatBecause you go into people's
homes and you ask them for money, they got to see your face,
then they got to hear your voice.
Then Wouldn't you rather thatthey have seen and heard you and
already feel a level of trusttowards you before you're
walking up their driveway?
Of course, that's a no-brainerand you've got to be willing to
(32:09):
show the extra mile.
You can tell people.
You know nobody has attentionto detail with the way they do
their roofing like we do, butthat doesn't mean anything until
you show it.
You know I started manufacturingfiberglass pools around 2017.
We were the first manufacturerto have a full-blown demo of a
(32:34):
series of eight videos, 10minutes long each, showing
exactly how we manufactured ourpools, no other manufacturers
were willing to show it becausethey were like this is
proprietary.
I'm like proprietary, my butt,are you kidding me?
There's nothing proprietaryabout slapping glass on a mold
Come on, get out of here.
And so we finally showed it.
(32:55):
And because we showed it,homeowners around the country
were like they're the only onesthat show how they make the
saying.
And that's how we just explodedfrom a growth perspective.
Nobody was showing that.
We showed it.
What could you be showing thatthe majority of your competitors
aren't showing?
Think about when you dotear-offs.
Think about all the ugly thingsthat you see that you're like
(33:16):
how did they do that?
You should be showing that,showing it to the world, and
that's how you're going to get alot of attention.
That's how you're going to geta lot of traction.
You know, I mean the hardware.
You use the methods that you do.
Show those things becauseseeing is believing.
That was true 2,000 years ago,it's going to be true today and
it's going to be very, very truetomorrow.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
That's not going to go away.
And when you're doing this,understand what you're talking
about.
What you've talked about,marcus, is that buyer's journey.
Understand what they'rethinking.
Right, the foundation ofmarketing is who, what, how,
right, and so who you'respeaking to, so who your
(33:57):
customer is the message that youare saying to them and that
message and what resonates withthem is that right.
They don't want to just hearwe're the best.
They don't want to just hear wehave an exceptional customer
service If you're able to showthem, if you can show them.
So one of the one of the mainthings I went back through this
(34:18):
you know we've we've releasedover 250 episodes now of this
show and we went back and wewere.
I had to do.
I did a presentation for theNational Women's and roofing
organization recently and I wentback to find common threads
between all of the all of thesuccessful contractors that I
have interviewed, and it was themost common thread was that
(34:43):
they cared so much about theircustomers.
Like it was it's phenomenal howmuch they poured into and fixed
problems and like did so much,for sometimes it wasn't their
fault, right.
They did a lot right, they pourinto their customers.
So when they say on theirwebsite, we have a great, you
(35:05):
know, we're customer focused, wehave a great customer
experience, it's just words.
But what you're saying now wetake that and we show it and we
show the problems.
Show the problems and show howyou fixed it, show the solution,
show how this was a problem andnow this is how we that there
there will be not like the powerin that is is outrageous, right
(35:30):
, like.
But your words don't matter,right?
The words on your website, thewords we are well, we're better
business bureau rated a plusWell if everybody's seeing it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
It's just noise.
It's just noise.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
And so going that level deeper is what you know,
is what I'm hearing from you.
Take it that level deeper.
Like this is what everyone'ssaying, and they're saying it
for a reason because the messageresonates with the buyer, right
.
It resonates with that customeravatar, that buyer persona.
But now take that message andfilm it right.
(36:05):
Create additional contentaround it.
The other part is therepurposing of content that you
mentioned.
This is my favorite thing inthe world.
I am a repurposing addict.
Like I think you could takethat blog post, create it into a
, turn it into a video script.
Now you have the video.
Now you have, like, now youhave, you know, so many pieces
of content from that one, butall with the intention that
(36:29):
you're just talking about.
Like you said, those core fivethe cost, the problems,
comparisons, reviews and who'sthe best right, like those are
the you know.
Bringing it all back to thatNext one you talk about is
selling in a way that otherswon't sell.
What are your thoughts on this?
(36:49):
How are people not selling?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
So there's a few different ones here you and I
were talking about.
I'm going to give you someexamples.
We were talking about onebefore the call.
I don't think most peoplerealize that if you can get back
to a lead within five minutes,there's a 900% greater chance
that they'll become a contact.
So one of the most importantthings you can do right now is
(37:16):
speed to lead.
Speed to lead, in other words,how quickly do you reach out?
It's pretty stunning how manyleads come through through paid,
through, organic, whatever itis that we never talk to.
And that's because if you waitmore than five minutes, heck who
knows what happens.
Maybe their HVAC broke, ormaybe they got a call from their
kid at school and now all of asudden, they're thinking about
(37:37):
something totally different andthey won't get back into that
train of thought for another fewweeks, or if at all.
That's just the way.
That's the world that we livein.
It's your job to immediatelyhave a conversation with them.
So, like my swimming poolcompany, right now, we have an
AI that and this goes live likewithin the next few days
actually for us.
But and this is something thatyou, that you personally do, jim
(37:58):
, and I think it's really,really awesome and I didn't know
this beforehand which I thinkis a tremendous service.
It can be really I mean, you'regoing to be inundated with
demand for this, but with demandfor this, but you know, just
being able to have an AI,immediately call the person and
then the AI and, for those thathaven't heard it, ai can have
voice conversations that willshock you, that come across as
(38:22):
very, very human.
You can even hear breaths.
I mean, you can hear like it'sjust wild.
So, anyway, the way that itworks with Riverpools is the
lead comes through, weimmediately call them and we say
hi, this is Alex.
I'm an AI assistant withRiverpools.
You just filled out a form onour site saying that you want to
talk to a salesperson, and thepurpose of this call is for me
(38:43):
to schedule a time for you totalk with that salesperson.
That's it.
It's really really simple.
They have the calendar for thesalesperson that they can sync
with automatically.
And now our conversion rates,our conversation rates, can go
way, way up, because the firstcompany has a conversation with
a prospect generally wins threeout of four times.
So you want to be the fastestcompany to have that first
(39:04):
conversation.
Email doesn't count.
You need to have a conversationfirst, but in order to do that,
you need to make sure that youget them in the moment that
they're hot, and the way to dothat is to use something like AI
, and I know you've got feelingson this.
We're going to talk aboutanother one here in a second,
but I'm sure you wanted to saysomething on that one, jim,
because you're pretty passionateabout it too.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
We went through the data with our old marketing
company and 40% of leads that wegenerated for our clients were
not answered or responded to.
Yeah, that's outrageous, marcus, and we built out a lot of
(39:50):
technology to do that, likeoriginally like when a lead
comes in, we would trigger aphone call to your company If
you didn't answer now textmessages and emails and things
like that.
So we've been working on thisspeed to lead for years, but
with the implementation of voiceAI, it's so much better and so
much faster.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah and again, somebody can't understand how
good it is until they hear awell-trained system do it.
And then, all of a sudden,you're like your whole world is
like the world that I previouslyknew is no longer the world I'm
living in once you hear it,once you see it in action.
(40:29):
Another example of this comesfrom a stat that Gartner
recently shared with me, whichis 75% of all buyers say they
would prefer to have aseller-free sales experience,
which basically means we don'twant to talk to salespeople at
this point until we're very,very ready, until we're
comfortable, until we'reconfident, until we feel like
we're not going to make amistake.
And the key to that, therefore,as a business, is what we call
(40:50):
self-service.
In the book and in EndlessCustomers, there's five
self-service tools that we teachthat essentially are
interactive tools that you mighthave on your website or online,
or something that's affiliatedwith you, that someone can get
an answer that previously, ortake an action that previously
they would have had to have donethrough a human, but now they
can do it themselves on theirown terms.
(41:11):
People love that.
Let me give you some examplesof how this might work, one that
we've had a ton of success withand it doesn't work for every
company, because not everycompany has multiple salespeople
but self-scheduling tools wherethey can go to your site and
they can schedule time with asalesperson if they're
interested.
But here's the super catch tothis.
That in and of itself isn'tsuper interesting.
(41:32):
What gets crazy and we'veexperimented with this a bunch,
jim is if they can see thesalespeople at work for you
their images, their bios, maybea video about them, and then
they can choose which one theywork with.
Closing rates double everysingle time we implement this.
(41:56):
So if someone chooses asalesperson versus is given a
salesperson, there's literallyliterally 100% greater chance
that they will buy from you.
Crazy, huh.
So that I think it's nodifferent than there's a reason
why we like Uber more than taxisbecause we don't know if the
taxi is going to stink, if it'sgoing to be a terrible
(42:16):
experience, if it's going to bebeat up.
Uber's very consistent and wefeel like we had a choice in the
game.
Well, being able to choose yoursalesperson is the future of
selling.
Okay, I can tell you that rightnow.
Another example of this, whichis a mega trend and this is
already a trend in roofing we'regoing to see it throughout home
(42:38):
services.
I am completely invested inthis kind of like.
You're invested in agents.
I'm very, very invested in thisnext type of self-service tool,
which is a self-pricing tool,all right, and I call them
pricing estimators.
So the first question somebodyhas when they know they need a
new roof, first question likethey look up at the roof or they
(42:59):
look up their ceiling andthere's like a leak coming
through, or they look up andthey're like my shingles are
shot, whatever it is, firstquestion is, roughly how much is
this going to cost?
What's this going to set usback?
Are we in the game?
Can we even afford this?
Like?
These are all the questionsthat somebody has, and so if you
don't address it in that moment, many of the people, if they
can't find it, they'll stop thejourney right there and they
(43:19):
don't do further research.
If they're allowed to get thatinitial question answered are we
in the game here financially?
Then they'll start to researchcompanies.
They'll start to get furtherquestions answered.
Then they'll fill out a form ormake a call and then the sales
process starts.
Then they'll talk to asalesperson and then the final
question of the buyer's journeyis the same as the first, with
(43:39):
one deviation.
First question was, roughlywhat's it going to cost?
The final question is soexactly what's this going to
cost?
So they're the same questions.
You bookend with cost questionswhen it comes to the buyer's
journey.
So what a pricing estimator doesand I have a ton of data on
this why?
Because I started a softwarecompany called priceguideai, and
(44:00):
priceguide allows someone toquickly and easily, with the
help of AI, of course, put apricing estimator on their
website.
Now there's different types ofthese tools in the.
In the roofing industry I madethis tool for that was
specialized for anybody in homeservices.
And so if you wanted to have anestimator on your website for a
(44:21):
new roof, let's say you want tohave an estimator on your site
for replacing gutters or I don'tcare what it is.
I mean, like literally anythingfor solar, you can create
multiple estimators with thistool.
It's a series of questions, justlike if someone came to you
right now and said to you whatwould it cost for a new roof,
you'd say, oh, I can answerroughly, but I got to ask you
(44:45):
some questions.
Okay, what are the questions?
You're going to ask questionslike square footage.
You're going to ask questionslike materials, you know, and
there's going to be a series ofthings that you're going to need
to know in order to give them ageneral estimate.
Now, once they get a generalestimate, man, they are really
feeling good because they'relike oh, finally, I have a sense
for things.
They're much more likely to dobusiness with you.
Now, here's what we found andhere's the kicker to it all.
(45:06):
If someone puts an estimator ontheir homepage and they use the
call to action phrase getinstant estimate, that's the
magic phrase get instantestimate, all right, could you
say, quote yes, but I don'treally see it like a quote.
I see it as an estimate.
I think they're different,because a quote is pretty close
(45:27):
Whereas an estimate is a range,and this keeps it very, very
safe for you as a contractor.
So get instant estimate.
What we see is they experience,from that day forward, a three
to 500% lift in conversions ontheir website.
So if you're getting five leadsa week right now from your
website, you'll start getting 15the moment you put a pricing
(45:50):
estimator on your homepage withGet Instant Estimates.
That's why it's so powerful,crazy, super effective, super
super effective.
That's priceguideai.
And here's what's really reallycool about it less than $200 a
year.
There's two types of pricingestimators.
There's the kind that youcustom build, which, as you know
as a developer, generally costswell into the thousands.
(46:11):
Like I got a company Impact.
We build custom estimators too,but they usually cost somewhere
between 15 to 25K.
Now, sometimes that's what acompany needs.
They're great and they can beeven more customized, but you
could have one working for youin 30 minutes or less and it
costs you $200 a year, and itimmediately, immediately,
(46:33):
generates leads.
You wouldn't have gotten.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
It drives me crazy, the pushback that people have
about this.
So I have a background in themortgage industry.
I've owned mortgage companiesand maybe it was legislatively
forced on the mortgage industry.
But there is something called agood faith estimate and it's
(46:57):
been a part of the mortgageindustry for decades now and
it's because that's what peoplewant to see.
They want to see what's the.
This is a big purchase.
That's what people want to see.
They want to see what's the.
This is a big purchase.
A pool, a roof, you know,remodeling your kitchen, you're
(47:18):
building a deck Like these arebig, big purchases, man.
Like this isn't an impulse buy,you know.
And so having that good faithestimate, um and so, so having
that good faith estimate, for meit's like, yeah, that's what
you do.
Like you, you can create thisgood faith estimate.
Like you said, there's a lot oftools that are starting to to
(47:38):
be able to do this.
Yours and Roofful and and andother ones out there that are
like the in the roofing industry.
They're starting to do this.
But like that's what people pushback, like I don't want, I
don't want the customer to know.
Well, what if something'sdifferent?
I know you're enjoying theepisode, but let's give a shout
out to another one of oursponsors.
As a roofing marketing agencyowner and coach, I've seen it
(47:58):
all Great marketing wastedbecause no one follows up fast
enough.
That's why I built Power UpAgents, not just a receptionist.
Our AI handles the entirecustomer journey, from answering
the first call to booking thejob to post job surveys and
reviews 24-7, inbound, outbound,even multilingual.
(48:21):
If you want leads followed upinstantly and customers nurtured
automatically, visit the linkin the description or visit the
sponsors page on the RoofingSuccess Podcast website.
Your full AI team is ready.
People push back like I don'twant the customer to know.
(48:46):
Well, what if something'sdifferent?
What if I go out there and thedecking's rotted?
Well then, the decking's rottedand you tell them you couldn't
see it right.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
That's why it's called an estimate An estimate.
It's like.
What's wild to me is youliterally have a chance tonight,
if you add this tool, to get 3xthe number of leads you're
getting right now.
So if you said to me, marcus,we have more leads than we can
take right now, I'd say fine.
But if you're saying at all, wewant more leads and you're out
(49:20):
there spending who knows howmuch on paid ads, on paid ads,
why in the world would you notcreate such a simple experience
that you would triple the leadsjust from your existing traffic?
It is beyond my realm ofunderstanding and I feel like
I'm pretty open to understand alot of things.
That one I don't understand, soit's a no-brainer.
(49:43):
You should do it.
There's three other types ofself-service tools.
Those are two of them, but Ican tell you this and I'm going
to make a promise Everybody'slistening to this right now
Within the next five years, 90%of roofing contractors that have
a website okay, in other words,real businesses that have a
website are going to have apricing estimator on said
(50:06):
website.
90%, mark my words.
Take it to the bank.
It will be a part of homeservices.
Every homeowner will expect it,and if they can't find it,
they'll move to the next websitethat does.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
Definitely.
And just on another point, onthe pushback, if you're a
contractor, you have done achange order.
That is a difference betweenyour original bid and what
happened right, like it canhappen at any time.
Don't be, don't shy away fromit.
And it's what people want right?
Don't shy away from it, andit's what people want, right.
(50:45):
So now we talked a little bitabout AI, but now we're saying
that the fourth component hereis be more, be more human.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
You can use technology to be way more human,
and I think that's a bigmisnomer out there that using
tech means that we're less human.
It's not.
Let me give you just somereally, really simple examples.
When we get a lead, it'sassigned to a salesperson.
The salesperson thenimmediately sends a one-to-one
video to the prospect.
Okay, so the prospectimmediately sees their face,
(51:18):
immediately sees their face,hears the voice, gets to know
them early, early in the game.
That's an example of somethingthat's different.
What's wild to me is the amountof contractors that the
homeowner doesn't know what thesalesperson looks like until
they're walking up the driveway.
Come on, y'all.
We could do so much better thanthat.
(51:41):
Also, when somebody thinks aboutyour company, name your brand,
what face do they see?
Who's the Colonel Sanders ofyour brand?
If you don't have one, wellthen you.
If you're listening to this,you probably should be, but if
you don't have one, it meansthat you're not putting yourself
out there.
Get from behind the desk, getfrom behind the camera and put
(52:03):
yourself on the camera.
That's your fiduciary.
Listen.
You ask people for their moneyin exchange for a good or a
service.
The least you could do was toshow them who they're going to
give their money to.
So like, literally, that's whatyou signed up for as an
entrepreneur, and so put yourface out there much more with
(52:28):
video.
That's just one more example toit, and there's other examples
as well.
One of them, which is hard for alot of people to fathom, is
going to be digital avatars.
When you come to theRiverpool's website, probably
six to 12 months from today,you're going to be greeted,
(52:48):
instead of that traditional chatbot in the bottom corner, by
what is a person that looks likethey're on Zoom and you can
expand it and they'll talk toyou just like you're having a
Zoom call.
But that person is going to beone of our digital avatars.
Might look like me, might looklike one of my business partners
of our digital avatars.
Might look like me, might looklike one of my business partners
(53:08):
, and it's going to say to youliterally, it's going to say to
you and I can say this to you,jim, because you get it, you see
the vision.
A lot of folks here still can'tfathom it, but as soon as you
come to the site, it's going tosay hey, welcome to River Pools,
I'm Digital Marcus.
I'm not the real Marcus, I'mhis AI avatar.
I'm using his brain all theinformation that he's ever put
(53:29):
online about pools to answeryour questions right now.
So we've got two options.
You can ask me any question.
You can say it out loud, or youcan type it in the little box
below and I'll just give you theanswers.
Or, if you'd like, I could evengive you an estimate right now.
Or, if you'd like, I could evengive you an estimate right now.
That's where we're headed.
(53:49):
Now somebody listening to thismight say, well, that's not very
human, that's an AI.
Okay, look at it like this.
If somebody comes to yourwebsite and just reads a bunch
of words on a screen, or if theytalk to someone that looks
literally just like you, soundsliterally just like you, has
(54:11):
your mannerisms even becauseyou've trained it well is using
your brain, in other words, theinformation that you've produced
on this subject, and is havingfull-blown conversations with
your leads before you ever meetthem, you tell me which one's
more human with your leads.
Before you ever meet them, youtell me which one's more human.
So, yeah, that's where we'reheaded and that's hard for
(54:32):
people to understand, but that'swhere we're headed.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
It is, and it will come faster than you think.
So now let's get people real.
Like we both went through the2008 times and the crash.
Both of us were about the sameage.
We saw the tech boom.
(54:55):
We saw the internet explode.
We've seen the changes overtime in it.
Right now, we may be in arecessionary time period
economically.
We're also combining that withthis enormous change, enormous
(55:16):
change from a technologicalperspective.
You know a lot of thesecontractors.
A lot of contractors are goingto fall right.
There's going to be a lot ofchallenges for them.
If you could wave a magic wandand guide them through three to
five things that they couldstart working on today to make
(55:39):
sure that they are here in fiveyears, what would that be?
Speaker 2 (55:43):
Yeah, I'd say number one change your mindset.
Your mindset needs to bethere's tremendous opportunity
right now, and the technology isa beautiful thing that can help
me.
If you want to sit there andsay this is bad and this is the
terminator, I can tell you.
I learned a long time ago don'tlet personal opinion screw up
(56:06):
smart business decisions.
And so, even if this thing'sthe Terminator and it's going to
end the world in 25 years, well, I want my business to be
successful between now and thatpoint in time.
So let's make sure that ourmindset is such that, hey, I am
going to learn these things, Ican learn these things and I am
(56:29):
going to get in the AI sandbox.
It's one of the first thingsthat you need to do.
And you say, well, what do Ieven do when I get there?
Just do this Go to ChatGPT andsay, hey, ChatGPT, here's my
name, here's my business, here'smy name, here's my business.
(56:50):
I have no idea how to use youto help me.
Can you help me understand waysthat I can use you to improve
my business and my life?
And then just let it go, baby,and you're going to start to
learn a lot and learn every day.
So get in the sandbox, start toplay, start to build.
That's number one.
Number two start seeingyourself as a media company.
Every job site there should bevideo coming from it.
(57:10):
Your phone needs to become yourbest friend and just fall
forward when it comes to video.
It's not going to be perfect,it's going to be clunky, it's
going to be messy, but you haveto do a lot more video and all
of its facets than you're doingright now.
You must think that way.
And finally, number threeembrace self-service.
(57:33):
Just do it.
Put that pricing estimator onyour website with a tool like
Price Guide or something like it.
Whether it's a roof hole orsomething else, these are the
game changers.
It's what homeowners want.
This is how you can start togenerate immediate leads.
You're the game changers.
It's what homeowners want.
This is how you can start togenerate immediate leads.
You're going to do it.
The question is, are you goingto wait until your competitors
do it and then you react, or areyou going to do it first and
(57:54):
they're going to react to you?
Because one last thing I'll sayabout this the rule breakers
always become the rule makersand everybody else becomes the
rule followers.
And I can tell you, that's nota very fun place to be.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
Awesome man, Thanks for your time today.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Speaker 3 (58:12):
Thank you for tuning into the Roofing Success Podcast
For more valuable content.
Visit roofingsuccesspodcastcomWhile there.
Check out our sponsors forexclusive offers, shop for
merchandise and sign up for ournewsletter for industry updates
and tips.
Also join the Roofing SuccessFacebook group to connect with
other professionals and stayupdated on the latest trends.
(58:33):
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, like, share
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