May 20, 2025 • 63 mins
Most roofing companies are built on sales first. Marty Sheegog did the opposite, and it changed everything. In this episode, you’ll meet the founder of Sheegog Contracting in Orlando, Florida, and learn how building operations first can actually be your BEST sales move.
Marty shares how he went from an average salesman to building a rock-solid company where field supervisors manage every detail, project quality is king, and homeowners are raving fans. You’ll hear how he built simple systems that prevent chaos and drive better reviews, referrals, and results.
🔗 https://sheegogcontracting.com/
✅ Why “sales first” could be ruining your business
✅ How field supervisors changed the game for Sheegog Contracting
✅ The review, referral, and photo system that proves customers are happy
✅ How to scale operations without sacrificing job quality
✅ The biggest lessons from storm chasing to building a real local brand
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Most rivers start with sales.
Marty Shigog built his businesson something different
operations first, and thatdecision it changed everything.
In this episode we're talkingwith Marty, the founder of
Shigog Contracting in Orlando,florida.
He went from being an averagesalesman who cared deeply about
every job to building a companywhere field supervisors run
(00:23):
clean, professional projects andcommunication is dialed in.
Marty's story is about qualityover chaos.
You'll hear how his teamcreated detailed project
examination systems, set clearboundaries between sales and
production and even turnedhomeowner walkthroughs into
powerful review drivers.
(00:44):
What makes Marty unique is hisobsession with getting the job
right, even when it's hard, evenwhen it costs more.
He's a systems thinker with aheart for doing the right thing,
and his transparency isrefreshing.
In today's episode we'll unpackhow to go from disorganized to
dialed in and why building atruly operationally sound
(01:07):
roofing business might be thebest sales move you ever make.
Let's jump in with Marty Shigog.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
roofing business.
Marty Shigog with ShegogContracting, how are you today,
(01:28):
man?
I'm good, sir, I'm good.
Thank you, how's that?
You know you got the surfboardsout Florida's.
You know you're down in Florida.
You know you getting out to the, you getting out and catching
some waves recently, or what I'mhoping this Saturday is my
first time out.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
The weather's been back and forth, so it's been
like 85 degrees one day, thenit'll be like 65 the next.
So it's not super solid weatheryet for it, but it's right
about that time.
So this Saturday is going to bethe first.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Awesome man, that's awesome.
Well, tell us a little bitabout she Got Contracting.
How you got started in theroofing business Sure.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So she Got Contracting.
We're based in Orlando, florida.
I got my starting in this, likea lot of other guys did,
selling roofs, so I started outdoing a little bit of storm
chasing.
So I got the experience of whatit's like roofing in about
seven different states, whichwas extremely beneficial to not
(02:32):
only get a real well-roundedlook at how to install roofs and
do roofs and how the differentcomponents and different systems
work in different areas, but Igot a really good look at like
how the insurance side of thingsand insurance claims
restoration works in a bunch ofother different states as well.
So there came a time where myknowledge base got good enough
(02:58):
to where I wanted to go out onmy own and I wanted to do it
somewhere that I knew was goingto keep us busy year round.
So eventually we made the movedown to Florida back in 2015.
I got my roofing license andwe've kind of been doing it ever
since.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Awesome, man, where are you from originally?
I'm from Louisville, kentucky.
Okay, all right.
Yeah, so down to Florida, man,this is a place where there's
going to be more, you know, someconsistent business going on
and you get to surf, you know,when you get the chance, when
the weather's nice, right.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
So it only takes a couple of years to wear out the
cold, the cold part of you.
So now I can last about a weekin the cold and that's about it.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Your body changes quickly, right it's a.
I live here in Minneapolis andI you know I I joked that like I
got neighbors that are outshoveling snow and shorts and a
hoodie, you know doesn't evenbother them, you know, no big
deal.
I'm like this is crazy man, butyou try not to brag about it
you know, but it's hardsometimes.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
It's hard, you know, salesmen like it too.
They like to be able to sellall year round.
The productive ones do anyways.
I think there's some guys thatif they've done storm chasing
before and that they've donethat kind of work, or if they're
from, you know, a Northernclimate region and they come
down here, they some guys domiss that off season to where
(04:29):
they can kind of do whateverthey want to.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So it's a, it's a double-edged sword sometimes Up
here.
It's just, you know they get togo ice fishing, so you know
whole different thing.
We were talking I think it waslast week, we were talking,
talking and when you guys kindof, when you structured the
business, you have a businesspartner in yourself and you
(04:53):
really structured, give us somecontext to that.
I think that that was that.
That's a great insight.
You know a lot of, especiallycoming from the sales side.
A lot of, a lot of contractorsthat start a business that come
(05:14):
from the sales side.
They're like sales first right,like let's just, let's just go
out and sell what.
What made you?
Or?
Or let's talk about thatoperational first philosophy a
little bit.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Sure, I would love to say it was on purpose.
I would love to say we sat downand we were like, let's
strategize this, how do we wantto approach it?
I don't know that.
A whole lot of businesses startlike that when it's you and
another person, so I'd love tosay it's strategy.
But yeah, you're exactly right,most especially if they're
(05:49):
coming from the insurance claimsrestoration side of things.
Most of them are really goodsalesmen that are really strong
in sales and they see this bigopportunity to make more money
if they go out on their own, andso that's how they start their
business, with all theconcentration being on the
revenue and the margins andbeing able to make the most
(06:11):
amount of money possible, whichis there's nothing wrong with
that.
It's just that the side effectto that is is that the quality
and everything that's going intothose jobs and those customers
is going to be secondary, andit's probably going to be years
until they realize that and thenhave to start repairing things
on the back end, which will be aslow process.
(06:32):
So, with us, I probably startedthe business the way that I did,
because when I was a salesman,I really wasn't a great salesman
.
I did well, but I wasn't agreat salesman in terms of
convincing homeowners to go withme for any particular reason
(06:55):
other than the fact that I justwanted to do a good job.
And so when I started torecognize that there was value
there and that they liked that,then I kind of found what my
little niche was.
So after doing that, I justtold people that I would do the
best job for them that Ipossibly could, and since I
(07:17):
really didn't know a whole lot,that just included me
compulsively going to my jobsites and just like
micromanaging even though I hadno idea what I was doing at
first and then just making sureeverything went well.
When a piece of little tar paperfell on the ground, I was
running over to pick it up.
You know what I mean.
It started out at that leveland because I was on the job
(07:39):
sites all the time, I justslowly picked up on the inner
workings of how the roof goes on.
So by simply wanting to upholdmy promise to my customers that
I would do everything I could tomake sure that the jobs went
well, that taught me how to doroofs and how to do roofing
correctly and the pitfalls ofnot having supervisors at job
(08:01):
sites which is why I was thereand things like that.
Like I saw firsthand all ofthat stuff.
So whenever I went to go startthe company and do our own thing
, it was already in the mindsetof that had to come first,
because that's the only way Iknew how to sell.
So that's really how we startedthe company.
And then my business partnerhe's more on the front end sales
(08:23):
part of things and I broughtwith me my brother-in-law and
good friend, jonathan, who runsmy production now, and when he
came over to sell he kind ofhelped us build up the inner
workings of the production sideof things.
So we all kind of had that samementality of the quality first
(08:45):
type of thing, simply becausethat's the only way we knew how
to sell jobs.
So that kind of forced us intobuilding things with that in
mind first.
And then the sales were like anafter, not necessarily after.
I mean, we were all in this tomake money Obviously it's why
you start a company but thesales were a side effect of the
job and quality we were doingwith our customers.
(09:07):
So that's kind of how thatwhole thing developed.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
I think that's awesome and I think it makes me
think of that analogy of are youa salesperson or a sold person?
And you know, if you're a soldperson, you, you know you're
going to do everything you canto to help the homeowner work
(09:34):
with you versus the competition,because you know you're going
to do that well of a job forthem.
Right.
But to have the confidence ofbeing a sold person, you have to
have the details in order,right?
If you're a salesperson, who'swho's out selling?
And all of a suddenproduction's getting backed up
(09:54):
lots of problems on the jobsites, problems with crews,
problems with cleanup, problemswith, you know, problems with
problems with problems withyou're getting those phone calls
You're the one that sat downwith that homeowner and had them
sign that contract.
You're the one that, that,you're the face of that sale.
(10:15):
And so, uh, I see where youcame from, where it was like.
You know, man, maybe I'm notgood at sales technique, but if
I convince someone that I'mgoing to do the best job that I
possibly can, that that's yoursay.
You know that's that's being asold person.
You were sold that.
I don't care what happens, I'mgoing to be out here cleaning up
(10:38):
, cleaning up, helping out,doing whatever it takes to make
this job go well.
You were you.
You may have been sold onyourself at that time, right
Like in, in, in, in in yourefforts, but so I love that I I
love how it came together.
It may not have been the ideaupfront, but it just came
together that way.
What are some of the like keyprocesses or systems that that
(11:06):
you've implemented over theyears?
Or what's been the steppingstone, like what did?
What were some of the like thethings that you put in place
that made the most differencefirst?
And then, oh, then we moved onto this, then we moved on to
that.
What problems did you solvethat that really have made an
impact on the business?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Wow, did you solve that?
That really have made an impacton the business, wow.
So, um, over the years we hadto break the mold of uh, of how
we we first organized the rolesof what everyone did in the
company, and so in the very youknow, we we do what we're taught
until we know any different.
And so, like, our salesmen alsowere like the job site people
(11:51):
you know.
So in that sort of model it wasa matter of, like, trying to
get them to do as good of a joband communicating with the
homeowner.
And you know, communicatingwith the crew as we would have
done with the homeowner, and youknow, communicating with the
crew as we would have done.
And I think you quickly learnthat, like, if you're going to
scale anything past two or threereps, that's just not a working
(12:12):
model.
So, if you want to, so what youfind as you expand is that you
can't control all of thosesalesmen being really good
project managers, right.
So then it's like, okay, well,like, you start to see some
quality problems.
You start to get the phonecalls, some reps are good, you
know better than others, andthen you're like, okay, well,
(12:34):
like we, we have to build insome supervision.
In my, in my humble experience,if you're going to have a
supervisor on the roof, it hasto be someone different than
that is on the crew.
I have had to learn some reallyhard lessons and you just
simply cannot take one of thecrew members and make them a
(12:54):
supervisor.
In my experience it justdoesn't work.
Maybe I didn't do it right, butin my experience it works far
better if you hire a completelyseparate person to manage the
job site, manage the crew andthey work as a team.
That way there's no biasness.
So us implementing a fieldsupervisor, a non-crew member
(13:17):
field supervisor, was probablyone of the biggest moves that we
made to control the quality andimprove communication with the
homeowner, and I would love tosay it's an overnight success,
but in no way shape or form isit.
There's a lot of learning curvethat goes in there, from simply
having the field supervisormake sure the roof goes on well
(13:38):
to over time and as you getbigger and bigger and have more
field supervisors, do a shift ofroles between the salesman
communicating with the homeownerduring the build and now it's
the field supervisor.
And that is a very hard thingto work out all the details on
and control the overhead asyou're doing it.
(13:59):
So that was a huge thing thatwe put into place.
That probably had the biggestimpact on everything was field
supervisors managing the jobsite and then also let your
salesman go out and sell morejobs as well.
Yeah, so that was a really bigthing.
And I would say the secondbiggest thing was project
(14:19):
examination examination.
So, wow, there's a lot ofbusiness owners out there that
are just I mean, they get theirjobs done and scheduled and put
on lickety split.
And I come from that where,like your turn in is the
contract and like that's it, andthen it just gets put on.
(14:40):
Florida is just different, guys,it just is.
I've worked in seven otherstates.
I'm telling you Florida is justdifferent guys, it just is.
I've worked in seven otherstates.
I'm telling you Florida is justdifferent.
The roofs here can getcomplicated.
There's just small littlethings that you have to pay
attention to, all kinds ofbuilding codes and inspections.
So what we did is we built in afilter system where the jobs
actually get looked at bysomeone who knows what the heck
(15:02):
they're doing.
It's as simple as that.
It creates the problems youhave to fight.
There's bottlenecking, but youknow you've got to work through
that and the thing is is that ifyou examine those projects and
try to find problems ahead oftime, you're going to save
yourself money later and you'regoing to be more upfront with
the customer.
They're going to know moreissues up front than they are
(15:27):
later.
And that's probably the secondbiggest thing that we did as a
company that makes the largestimpact.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
That's awesome.
I want to dig into this alittle bit more that field
supervisor role.
What have you found are thequalities that you look for now
in a good field supervisor?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
The qualities of a good field supervisor.
It's got to be someone that canmesh well with the crew.
If they don't mesh well withthe crew, then it just doesn't
really matter.
So they got to be a little bitof a people person.
They have to understand inlarge part the Hispanic culture
and the way those guyscommunicate, because the way
they communicate is differentthan the way most of us
(16:12):
communicate.
So there has to be that.
Bilingual guys are way morepreferred.
Someone that's actually goingto take that, someone.
You got to find someone thatactually cares and none of it
really matters if they're justtrying to follow a checklist and
that's it.
It's too easy of a job tooverlook a whole lot of things
(16:37):
if you don't actually care aboutwhat you're doing.
But a lot of that comes fromyou know the culture of your
company, what you've done tobuild that culture of actually
caring about the type of productthat you're putting on and if
they'll buy into that andthey'll actually care about that
and you incentivize themcorrectly.
Now you've got someone that youcan rely on, even if they don't
(17:00):
know a whole lot.
We've set up company camptemplates, a field manager to
oversee the field supervisors.
We've got a lot of things inplace to make bringing in a new
person and quickly ramping themup to an experienced level.
So we've kind of closed thelearning curve gap through a lot
(17:21):
of things like templates andprocesses.
That was really valuablebecause you can't afford to wait
six months for a guy to go fromlittle to a whole lot of
experience.
That just doesn't happen.
So you got to put things inplace to be able to close that
learning curve gap.
But finding someone that willactually care about the job site
(17:44):
, that's what you got to find.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, from an operational perspective.
You know I'm a big fan of EOSand metrics and you know metrics
for each person.
How do you measure care?
Like, what are you looking for?
That is, what feedback are yougetting from, from from the job,
from the customer, from thecrews, from the salespeople?
(18:08):
Like, what are you measuring todetermine to to really say,
yeah, that person really likethey're, they care about what
happens on their job site.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
So the easiest thing was uh, we give, we give small
little spiffs on two reallyimportant things.
Well, three really.
If they can get referrals, sothey're not getting any
referrals if they don't do agood job we have them take a
picture with the I love my roofsign.
So again, the homeowner is notgoing to pose for a picture with
(18:41):
you if you're not doing a goodjob.
And then, lastly, they ask forreviews at that time.
So they get a SPF for all threeof those things individually.
So, if nothing else, there'sone of their big driving
motivators to make sure thatthey keep the customer happy,
keep in communication with themand have a resulting good job.
(19:04):
That's the easiest.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, so it's an incentivization of the, of the
things that would that that leadto caring for the customer,
right, like that show you thatthis is what you know.
Hey, if the, if we took goodcare of this customer, they're
going to leave a review, they'regoing to take this picture,
they're going to right.
You have those things in place.
That's awesome.
You mentioned thatcommunication was a challenge in
(19:30):
the beginning and maybe youfigured it out now.
And, as we all know, like,business is always evolving and
there's always a problem tosolve, right, so it's not like
everyone's perfect, but like asyou're, as you implemented this
field supervisor role, how didyou know what were some of the
kind of things that came upearly on in the communication
(19:50):
process and how did you solvethem?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So the first obstacle is creating a division between
the salesman and the fieldsupervisor.
You got to solve that first,because what will happen is the
homeowner wants to talk to thesalesman and now you're trying
to force a field supervisor ontothem and field supervisor is
trying to communicate with thehomeowner.
(20:16):
Homeowner doesn't want tocommunicate with them, they want
to communicate with the otherguy.
That's the first hurdle you gotto get over.
You got to create that clearline of division, and so that
was very difficult and it reallywe came to a point with it
where we had to make it to wherewe told the salesman listen,
like had to make it to where wetold the salesman listen, like,
(20:38):
once you turn in this job, yourrole is over.
Obviously, if the customercalls you, you know you take
care of them, you get them tothe right department, but you
don't answer questions for themwhen it pertains to production,
because then we're just going tomiscommunicate.
That happened for a very longtime I would say a year From the
point that we tried to do thisconversion.
(21:00):
It took a year for for that tostop happening like a lot, and
so once we kind of made that athing, then it became a little
easier.
Then it became not only is yourrole over, but like you need to
, at the end of the sale youreally need to start prepping
the homeowner on what to expectnext, who's going to be their
(21:20):
next point of contact.
So when you start making thatpreparation, then the homeowner
starts understanding.
Then we started doing likecontract calls to review the
contract with the homeownerafter the job was turned in, and
in that contract call we'refurther explained to them hey,
when the job goes on, this isgoing to be your point of
contact.
They're going to touch basewith you when they come out
(21:42):
there during the whole project,talk to this person.
And so we're just reminding thehomeowner throughout the
process who they're supposed tobe communicating with.
And that really dials back now.
Now we know who is supposed tobe communicating and now you can
actually focus on thatcommunication happening.
So after that's done, it'sgetting the field supervisor to
(22:04):
text the homeowner in themorning, give an update,
introduce themselves.
Hey, here's who I am, I'm goingto be there or I'm going to get
materials and I'll be therelater, that sort of thing.
So opening up that line ofcommunication via text is pretty
big them showing up,introducing themselves, giving
the card, that whole thing.
That really sets the tone andthat's how we were able to
(22:30):
improve the communication.
And I would say, lastly, doinga final walkthrough with the
homeowner, giving them anopportunity to point out
anything that they can andanything that they want to and
sign off on it.
That kind of like closes theloop.
It's not 100%, because I don'tcare.
If you walk around the house 10times with the homeowner four
(22:51):
days from now, they're going tofind something, they're going to
point it out and be like why isthat shadow right there?
I've never seen that shadow atsix o'clock.
They're just going to startnoticing stuff, but you want to
reduce it as much as you can.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
But that's what I've found to be effective.
I think that's a couple ofreally key points for people.
We always want this stuff tohappen right away, but it takes
man, it takes some time.
Nope, we got to do it this way.
Nope, we got to do it this way.
Nope, we got to do it this way.
The thing that I want tohighlight for everyone that you
said was sales reps don't answerquestions about production, and
(23:30):
so if that is just a simplething right there like that, you
know I have to hand you off tothis person to answer that
question.
I'm not allowed to answer thatquestion.
I'm in trouble if I answer thatquestion Because then, like you
(23:51):
said, that's where themiscommunication starts to
happen.
I had heard that.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Chick-fil-A took something like six years to get
everyone to say my pleasure, andthat's I kind of like.
For some reason that kind ofstuck with me because it made it
OK for me to take on taking awhile to get simple process to
happen consistently.
And I don't know if it's true,it was just something I heard on
(24:16):
somebody's you know podcast orsomething.
I heard it somewhere and itreally just stuck with me that
it's okay for these things totake a while.
You know it's hard to breakcertain habits and get people to
do something across the board.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, and a lot of times we just have improper
expectations right.
For us, it's like, well, justsay this, but they're the ones
that take that call from thehomeowner, right?
And that homeowner is askingthem questions and they're like,
really, you don't know this,like why don't you know this?
And so the easy answer is yes,I know this.
Right, like yeah, I know this,I know this, I'll tell you right
(24:51):
now.
But that's not the right answer, right, the right answer is let
me get you over to your fieldsupervisor and they'll be able
to answer all the questions foryou.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
The toughest thing with that was the misconception
that, like from an ownerstandpoint, I'm like hey,
salesman, guess what?
You don't have to fill thesequestions, we got it.
I mean, literally we were backjust like high-fiving each other
going these guys are going tolove us and it was the opposite.
It was the opposite.
They were angry about itbecause they would still have to
(25:22):
feel the call and they felt anobligation to not look like an
idiot in front of the homeownerand passing them off, and it had
like the exact opposite effectand it really took a while to
figure out how to properly setthe expectations for them and
how to feel those calls from nowon.
I overlooked the fact thatyou're going to have to train
the salesman on how to handlethat call now, and so it was one
(25:45):
of those things that we justthought we were hitting it out
of the ballpark and everyone wasgoing to be thrilled and it was
the opposite.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Isn't it funny, like I mean, you think, like man,
this solves such a huge problemfor them and then you just don't
get that buy in it.
But that's the expectations,right, we have to have
expectations.
We got to give ourselves somegrace.
We got to give ourselves sometime.
It doesn't happen overnight.
Before we carry on with theepisode, let's give a shout out
(26:14):
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Another thing I want to go backto is the project examination.
What is like?
How did you begin to developthe process of project exam, of
(27:18):
examining each project?
Talk about that a little bitLike what, who does what, what
you're looking at.
You know you said it could be abottleneck at times.
You know what, what's thatprocess for you?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
So the the more things that you try to to set up
and implement for your companyto to make things better, the
more that you realize that youhave to stage it that way, and
so I'm trying to think back towhen exactly we started doing
(27:54):
that and why.
So there's just certain thingsthat we started doing as a
company, like here in Florida.
It's something different thanwhat you guys experience Other
places.
We have stuccoed houses, right.
So in stuccoed houses you havelike dead valleys, you have
chimneys, you have high riskleak areas, and so in Florida a
(28:18):
lot of contractors would justsimply overlook those because
there's flashing there.
But whenever you change theflashing in those corners,
what's going to happen is you'regoing to create an additional
gap in the corner.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
no, matter what you do, I don't care.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
The reason it doesn't leak is because they're taking
a handful of roofing cement andthey're slapping it on there and
it's going to last maybe oneyear, two years, five years, you
don't know that's if you donothing.
So what we realized looking atthe data, was that, man, all of
our leaks are coming from these,like two areas.
So we, just, across the board,made it a rule that we're either
(28:52):
going to reflash it withcounter flashing, we're going to
cut stucco and redo the stuccoand redo the flashing, you know,
to bring it back to itsoriginal state.
That's complicated yeah, it'svery, very complicated and it's
very time consuming, andespecially, even if you go back
with counter flashing, what youhave is you have homeowners that
(29:14):
were not prepared to see anyraw, shiny, shiny metal on the
face of their house.
And now they do.
And so it was through all thattrial and error where we're like
, oh, we did a great job, butnow the homeowner's mad because
it doesn't look good.
What if we paint it?
All right, what if we cut thestucco?
But cutting the stucco is likefour times the cost.
We realize that's just oneexample of like a few different
(29:38):
ones where there just has to becertain decisions made and
evaluated before that job goesinto production, because if you
try to solve it at the job site,everything is 10 times harder.
And so we really looked atthose and we were like, all
right, well, let's start lookingat the jobs before they go to
(29:58):
be scheduled to get a handle onthat one situation.
And then that one situation ledto oh well, let's go ahead and
catch this, this and this.
And then it was like, how havewe not been doing this before?
We're catching all the problems?
And so that's kind of what itled to was.
Then we started developing achecklist system of everything
we're going to look for.
(30:22):
It's a little difficult becausethe sales reps it takes a little
bit more work on their end.
They got to get a lot moredetailed pictures.
There's definitely some things.
If you're going to put it inplace, there's things you have
to consider.
There's a lot of things you'regoing to have it in place.
There's things you have to likeconsider.
There's a lot of things you'regoing to have to work through.
It's going to have an effect onwhat you require from your
(30:44):
salesman.
You know to turn in like aperfect packet um, they're going
to have to go back and getstuff.
You know.
If they miss it, um and it.
You got to be able to make itto where the highest level stuff
is being looked at by yourhighest level employee.
If you take the person with allthe roof knowledge and have them
(31:05):
look at, like job profile, setup stuff, well then you're
taking your most highly paid,experienced person.
You're having to do the mostmenial tasks and, to be
(31:35):
perfectly honest with you, itwasn't until this past year,
year and a half, that we reallystarted working.
Start looking at your bottomline and you start going.
This is expensive, fieldsupervisors are expensive and
we're bottlenecking our jobs tothis one person.
We need to fix this, and thoseare the problems that you have
to start solving, because theother option is you go back to
(31:58):
doing what everyone else isdoing, that all of your salesmen
that you're hiring are used todoing, which is you mean I've
got to do all this to turn in aperfect job at my old place?
We just we just turn in thecontract with, like the colors
and like that's it, and it'sjust kind of like listen, like
once you know you can't unknowit, know you can't unknow it.
Like there's no way that Icould take my production team
(32:20):
now and go, hey, all that coolstuff that we do now and all
those mistakes and all thebetter job we do on the job, and
we know the customer is goingto get a better roof because of
and all of the mysterious thingsthat we're fixing now, and the
homeowner is not going to find,three years from now, stop doing
those because we can't affordit.
That just becomes not an option, and so you have to figure out
(32:40):
how to financially make it work.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Yeah, To me.
I mean, I could see theresistance from a sales
perspective, but I can see howyou could frame it in a way
where now they have acompetitive advantage in the
sales process, right, you know,making sure that the customer
understands that all of this isgoing to be done too.
And this is why, and andeveryone else that comes by
(33:06):
afterwards or before is like ohyeah, they're not doing this
Like I think it would.
I would say, has it?
Has it become that now?
I mean, I maybe it's in thebeginning or with a sales rep,
do they see the value in thesales process now?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I love the fact that all my salesmen are going to see
this.
This is fun.
So the thing about it is that Ithink you have two different
types of salesmen out there andwith a small degree of gray
You've got your salesman on thestructure and in the companies
that they just sell, like thecontingency contracts and
they're out.
Or maybe they put it into alittle bit further contract, but
(33:48):
they're just completely out.
They don't even field callsfrom homeowners.
They don't really care how thejob's put on because they don't
have to deal with the homeownerscalling them.
They're just that far out ofthe production side and solely
focusing on the sales side.
Those salesmen have never feltthe pain of what it's like to
not do a good job.
The other guys the other guysthat are a little bit more
(34:12):
involved in either the contractand do fill those calls from the
homeowner or are used todealing with that, when they
come into this system and theydo what they're doing, they see
what we're doing.
They immediately see the valueand the competitive advantage
that they now have.
And I actually have salesmennow that are with me simply
because they were tired ofgetting the phone calls from the
(34:36):
other people.
They're like man, I just can'tdeal with telling selling a
homeowner on something and thenlike it totally not going the
way it was supposed to, and sothat's.
We've just, incidentally, foundone of our competitive
advantages, just you know, justby trying to do the best job
that we can do.
So the salesman, it's a littlebit of a thing and, again, it's
(35:03):
still not perfect.
It's always something thatwe're working on and finding
that line between expectationsand then like, what can we live
without?
And there's stuff I've seenfrom Elon Musk saying you should
always be adding back in 10%because you're taking away a
whole bunch of other stuff inyour process.
And I try to do that.
(35:24):
We built this super micro,detailed thing and you find that
it's just too detailed and soyou got to take some of it away,
find out what you need to putback in and just find that
balance.
And it's really hard, it'sreally really hard to find the
balance, but you know it's theresomewhere.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I think that that's, that's something that that a lot
, of, a lot of times, when we'rebuilding out systems and
processes and operational,operational activities, a lot of
times we're coming up with it,like you said, even even the
field supervisor role that allof these things, times we're
coming up with it, like you said, even even the field supervisor
role that all of these thingswe're coming up with it from our
idea of what could, what couldbe better, but what?
(36:07):
What that made me think of whatyou just said was that a lot of
times you don't it's all.
You need the feedback loop.
Like you need the feedback loop, you can you can sit around for
a year and build systems andprocesses and not do any
business, and then you startdoing business and you're
running customers through that.
Your team members are operatingthese systems and processes.
(36:30):
It's not going to be what youthought.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Let's go ahead and ruin the surprise for everybody
out there.
It's none of your ideas aregoing to work the way they're
supposed to.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
So maybe a better way to think about it is from a
like in software, we call itminimum viable product when
you're building software.
So what we do is we decide whatis our minimum viable product,
like, what is the smallestamount of features that I can
give to a customer to be able toget feedback from them?
(37:09):
And then, once we get thatfeedback, we iterate on that
feedback, right, so now it goesoh, okay, everyone, they worked
with this and now they're askingfor this feature set, so now
we'll add that feature set andthen we'll get feedback on that
feature set and how it worked.
And then, like there's a greatbook called the Lean Startup
(37:30):
that, for everyone listening,that that really outlines the
MVP model and I but I think I'vetaken it into other aspects of
business, into things like thisas you're doing these things,
you just say, okay, what's ourminimum viable product?
What's the easiest way to getthis thing going and get some
(37:53):
feedback from the team, from theteam from the customers, from
everyone, and then you justcontinue to iterate on it.
There will never be a time inyour business that you are not
iterating it won't all cometogether.
It just won't.
There's no, there's no time inyour business it's you.
(38:16):
Go to ge and all thesecompanies that have been around
for you know a hundred years.
They are still having meetingsabout what they could do better
and how to change this processand how to affect that process
and what, like it never ends.
So if we accept that and justcontinue to say, okay, well,
that one didn't work, let's makea little adjustment, right?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
I remember thinking like five years ago I remember
just sitting there being likeman, I can't wait until we just
have all these processes inplace and then we can just run
the business based on theprocesses and like we do.
We don't have to like bethinking of all this new stuff
all the time.
And then a couple of years agoI had the realization of it's
always going to be like this.
(39:00):
All right, it just is what itis.
And then it slowly becomes alittle bit Okay.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yeah, that's where everyone needs to get to the
okay.
The okay that there's anotherproblem to be solved there, you
know, and that that that'sreally, really impactful.
So, um, you got you.
In hearing you talk about yourprocesses and in hearing you
talk about your company.
In hearing you talk about weidentified, what did you say?
(39:29):
Four regions, that of the?
We identified, what did you say?
Four regions of the roof buildthat had the most problems.
Was it four?
You have to have some data.
You must be collecting somesort of data to be able to come
to those conclusions.
Was that something that you didintentionally or was it like
(39:51):
all right, we got problems?
Let's just look through thelast 20 jobs and see what the
issues were.
How did that come to be?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
I think, like so many other things, it's kind of a
slow process.
It's.
You know, you start out.
You start out just trying tolook back at okay, well, like
where are all our leaks comingfrom?
Let's start a spreadsheet.
Anytime there's a leak, I wantto know what crew it was, I want
to know where on the roof itwas and if it was our fault or
(40:21):
not.
And then, like, you build thatlist for a while and then you
start staring at it and you'relike, okay, that was pretty
useful.
What else can we have a list on?
Speaker 1 (40:30):
And you just kind of like, all right well now.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Now I want to know this and now I want to know that
.
And, uh, once you, once youkind of figure out how to
delegate those lists to peopleand make them their
responsibility, then it becomeseven easier.
Because I started out, I mean,like a lot of owners I'm, I like
to control everything and solike I would want to manage all
(40:52):
these spreadsheets and do allthis, and it's just kind of like
.
Then you stop wanting to getmore data because you have to do
it.
So if you can assign the dataresponsibility to other people,
then it's endless.
Whatever you want data on, youjust have someone make it a part
of their job and truly, themore information and data you
have, the better every.
(41:13):
The more potential you have,the more potential you have to
handle problems or increasesales.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, that's a key insight.
Like it's it.
It it will show you where youneed to work on, what you need
to work on Right, like the, the,and if you don't have any data,
you don't even know what towork on.
You may feel something, but itmight not be true.
Right, you may feel likethere's a communication issue
(41:42):
over here, but it's somethingelse over here.
You may feel that it's that youneed to read do your process in
in.
Uh, um, like removing the stucco, you know what I mean.
Like we may need to do a wholedifferent thing here.
It may be something completelydifferent.
Um, yeah, those are great,great things to cover.
(42:06):
Okay, so you, I want to getinto the way that you kind of
built out SheGog and kind ofusing a, what we talked about it
like last week, it was like a.
You came into it kind of like astorm chaser and so you kind of
spread out quickly around thestate where there was a need for
(42:31):
work, and then you know, kindof built it up over there.
Talk us through that, like whatwas, how did you, what was the
expansion like and what lessonsdid you learn from that?
Speaker 2 (42:44):
so the uh, the scariest thing from going from a
storm chaser mentality as asalesman to owning a company and
just staying in one spot is howam I going to continue to get
business in one area If youspent five years going from like
(43:06):
one storm to the other and likeyou kind of get a sense of when
it starts to dry up, like justa man?
If you're a storm chaserlistening this, just imagine
whatever storm you're at now.
Imagine having to stay therefor five years.
It was a really scary thing.
So it's like you know, can, canwe do this?
Can we stay in one spot?
Other people are doing it, andso then you just have to kind of
(43:30):
like learn how to do that, andI think for a really long time
you just take advantage of everyopportunity you possibly can.
And what that did is it waskind of like playing the game of
risk, like we had, like youknow, our army right here, and
then, if you look back, we gotlike one soldier there and one
(43:50):
soldier there and one soldierthere, and and before you know
it you're kind of strung around,and so as your tactics in your
company start to change, thatspreading out becomes a problem
and if I could do it all overagain, I would centralize my
(44:10):
efforts, but I get that wouldrequire me knowing a lot of
things that I just didn't know.
Then you know, if you're tryingto feel you know, put in field
supervisors, that's a whole loteasier.
If you're just trying to do aone hour radius, you know one
Orlando, florida Fieldsupervision great easy.
(44:34):
You can manage a couple ofdifferent jobs at one point.
Everything's going to be inthis nice little area.
But right now, currently, youknow we are from everywhere,
from Jacksonville all the waydown to Rockledge, which is, you
know, about the middle ofFlorida East Coast, and then
from there all the way over toTampa on the West Coast.
So when you have jobs that canpotentially be four hours away
(44:59):
from each other and you've onlygot so many field supervisors,
you're talking logistics andyou're talking like a whole
different ask of your fieldsupervisor and you have to start
rotating, like them stayingovernight and per diems and
additional overheads that youweren't prepared for.
It become and and that's noteven to get into the whole
(45:21):
strategy of online marketingmarketing dollars is a real
thing.
So you and for for everyone,with three salesmen and you just
came from storming, and that'snot a thing for you guys.
You're just used to justknocking doors and I was there.
But when you start looking atinvesting marketing dollars into
a geographical area online, yourealize that your budget will
(45:44):
only carry you so far, and atsome point you have to pick a
place, and so I think some ofwhat we're doing now is taking
some of the strategicdoor-to-door sales, strategic
marketing, and really dialing itinto one specific area and then
, once we've kind of got it downpat, then taking it to some of
(46:04):
the other places that we are.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
That we have salesmen , but it's not as highly
concentrated as our meat andpotatoes.
Yeah, so something thathappened was your team got
spread out because of goingafter this work and now the
lesson was okay, well, man,there's a whole lesson around
marketing.
There's a whole lesson aroundthe field supervisor role.
There's a whole lesson there.
Now let's dial that in.
And now, now we can say okay,now we're going to go and
(46:35):
support that sales rep with thismodel and build it out around
there and and and and kind of uh, do it better, build it, you
know, do it do?
it better this time, Right, Um,and so you know.
There's always, there's alwaysthings that we learn along the
way.
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(46:56):
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(47:40):
So I understand the fieldsupervisor role and how that
works.
Let's talk about marketing alittle bit.
What are the lessons thatyou've learned around marketing?
You know, especially fromcoming from the storm side, door
to door sales man it's.
You know hoots and knuckles, itdoesn't matter, Like you don't
(48:01):
need any, anything but rightLike a truck and a and and your
knuckles, and you can.
You can, you can create a goodliving, yes, but when you're
trying to create a company, abusiness in a certain area, boy,
that changes.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
It is yes, yeah, it's like there's brand building and
then there's marketing andthey're two different things
with vastly different budgets.
And it really it took me a longtime to realize that in the
beginning, the commissions thatwe were paying our self-gen
(48:40):
salesmen, that was our marketingbudget.
Because people, you know guys,would come up to me or not,
other businesses would solicitme on marketing and stuff, and
they would ask me, hey, like,what's your marketing budget?
And I'd be like, uh, nothing.
And I just didn't realize,cause all I knew was door to
door and I didn't realize thatyou know really what I'm paying
(49:03):
myself, jen guys, that is mymarketing budget.
And so I think that what I wishI could go back and tell myself
before I tried anything islisten, like, if you're going to
not mix the two, if you'regoing to do door to door, then
take your door to door reps andhave them do door to door.
(49:25):
Don't, don't try to mix ingiving marketing leads to
door-to-door guys.
It does not work.
All you're going to do isbasically pay them to not have
to knock doors.
And then you realize you got todo some sort of lead fee.
And then, even when you do thelead fee.
(49:45):
You realize that you're stillnot getting ahead because you're
taking time away from theknocking doors and it.
You got to separate it.
You got to go with a clear planand and stick to it and not
mingle the two.
Man, I wish I could go back andtell myself that that was a,
that was a big lesson that Imean from from you know, doing
(50:06):
marketing for a few hundredroofing companies.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Boy, I knew that lesson that was.
You know, I would tell owners alot of times if they had, if
all of their reps weredoor-to-door sales reps like
they're not gonna like a leadfrom Google, they're not gonna
like a lead from Facebook,they're gonna have to stop
(50:30):
knocking the neighborhood thatthey're in or that they're going
to have to stop knocking theneighborhood that they're in or
that they're working and knowingthat there's, there's
additional business here,they're going to get in their
truck and they're going to drive30, 45 minutes to the other
side of town to run a Facebookor Google ads lead.
It's kind of to your point,like they're from their time
perspective.
(50:51):
It's kind of to your point,like they're from their time
perspective.
So what?
What we found a lot of times isthe, the attention to the,
those leads coming in from thedigital marketing side.
You know, we just don't respondto those as efficiently as we do
.
No-transcript.
(51:19):
He's going to sign two moredeals today and you want him to
drive across town for the hopeof signing a deal, right?
Speaker 2 (51:28):
Like a lot less close percentage.
You know a lot less closepercentage.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
It's a.
It's a tough one man.
It's a really tough balance tomake.
So how have you?
So?
Do you have a?
You know, a team that aredoor-to-door sales and a team
that are kind of more lead gensales people?
Speaker 2 (51:48):
so, okay, I think I think it's important to note the
precursor for any of that isyou got to be prepared to
measure it.
You can't measure it.
If you cannot measure what isgoing to happen with the money
that you're putting into it,don't, don't even start, you're
just throwing money away.
I wish I could have known thatas well.
And it's really, really hard.
(52:10):
If you're never, if you're notused to measuring anything
especially if all your guys aredoor-to-door and you're not used
to measuring their successbecause they're all self-gen
Then measuring close rates andsuccess rates and booking rates
and all that other awesome datais extremely alien and it's
going to take a lot of time.
We're still working on it.
We still don't even have itgreat.
(52:31):
We do it okay, but it's stillnot even great.
It's that hard, it is hard toget that information.
So once you can, I think thenyou can start entertaining it,
as long as you can like have awhole different like business
plan.
For just that we got kind oflucky.
Again, as with as with a lot ofthings, it was kind of
(52:55):
unintentional.
But I have a few different guys.
I have a few different self-genguys that just simply don't do
door-to-door.
They are high producers butit's because they're in
networking groups.
They're just high networkersand they get all their business
through that.
So, hey, if they're alreadynetworking and they're already
doing that, for them to runleads is not that big of a deal.
(53:18):
They're game for that, they'reopen to that.
We also tried hiring on acompletely different commission
structure, a more salarycommission structure,
specifically to run leads, andthat worked pretty good.
Okay, but you know, wedefinitely forego the thought of
(53:39):
giving our door-to-doorself-gen guys any sort of
marketing leads.
It just doesn't work.
So we do.
We have a separate team to takethose on and really, even right
now in our own business, we'rereally trying to look at how
much we have going on and goingman, are we trying to do too
much?
Is there one aspect of this thatwe should just really put all
(54:02):
of our concentration on?
Instead of trying to write an adbudget, maybe just dial it back
to having a budget that just issmaller, that focuses on brand
recognition, to help out ourdoor-to-door guys and to give us
some, you know, organic leads,and then just focus everything
on door-to-door and, like thefront or closer model and that's
(54:25):
kind of where we're at rightnow is really just focusing on
what we see being the mostsuccessful is really just
focusing on what we see beingthe most successful, and maybe
once we get that dialed in a bitthen we can kind of shift our
focus over.
But just like in the book, theOne Thing there comes a point
where you just simply can't beeffective in trying to look at
(54:47):
too many it doesn't matter howmany people you got working on
it really as a company to getone big business model to work,
whether it's marketing or doorto door, you really got to just
focus on it.
And we're kind of in the middleof learning that lesson right
now.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Yeah, that's a great, that's great feedback from your
marketing perspective to.
My favorite metrics arecustomer acquisition costs and
long-term value.
The long-term value of acustomer Are you guys like is
that part of?
Are you measuring customeracquisition costs per channel?
Is that something that you'relooking at or or are you just
doing lead costs?
Where are you, where are youguys at with that, with that
(55:23):
process?
Speaker 2 (55:25):
We're kind of in the middle of breaking those numbers
down and and getting it fromlike.
From from like not even lead,but like what's.
You know, when you dopay-per-click, the very first
one is like it's like theinterest click and then like the
ratio from that to an actuallead and that you know that from
(55:46):
lead to booking and then showrate and then close rate, and
then it's just kind of like yeah, you got to work all those
numbers back all the way to likewhat does it cost per deal?
And that number is scary forlike a while, yeah it's scary.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
So I've been having this conversation a lot lately,
lot lately, and I think thatbefore any contractor begins
allocating a marketing budget,they have to determine what
their optimal customeracquisition cost range is.
I like range because it is arange, it's not one number.
(56:31):
Of course your optimal customeracquisition cost is zero, but
that's whatever.
Let's throw that out becauseyou're not a real business owner
if that's your customeracquisition cost.
So, determining that range of,hey, we're between here and here
(56:53):
.
You know, on the high end man, Idon't like it when it's up
there, but I know that when wedo that job, that customer is
going to be a raving fan andthey're going to refer us.
That's the.
You're thinking about thatlong-term value of a customer.
On the low end it's like, boom,we're printing money here,
(57:13):
let's go, you know, um and so,so.
So that that's what I like to,to give people a, a kind of some
context around in that is is,develop that range because and
and all those metrics thatyou're talking about, click to,
to, to lead to, call toappointment book, to show that's
(57:33):
all phenomenal data to have.
But even if you get to the endof that and you have to know
that customer.
You have to know if you'rewithin your customer acquisition
cost range.
Speaker 2 (57:49):
You have to know what your commission structure for
the guys taking those are.
Because if you don't know whatyour range is, your acceptable
range, then you either don'tknow what commission to give
someone, or you know acommission to give someone but
you don't know the range.
Like you got to know what yourending net looks like on that,
(58:12):
and we actually started that alittle late.
I wish we ended up getting thatdown, but it was just kind of
like oh man, yeah, that wouldhit us.
It was like all right, well,like the cost per contract
number is like really high.
Well, what does that mean?
You know, what does that meanthat we can do with commissions
here?
And it's like man, we we'rethinking about that all wrong.
(58:33):
We should know that numberfirst and then get into it so
that we can drive it down andeither call it a win or a loss.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
That's right, and knowing that end metric will
help everyone listening.
That's the one, because now youhave something to shoot for.
You have something to measureyour success against.
A lot of times you got guys outdoor to door.
There is a customer acquisitioncost in that.
(59:02):
From all of your digitalmarketing, direct mail, all of
those things you're going to,there's a number direct mail,
all of those things you're goingto like.
There's a number Facebook leadsnot as much nowadays, but there
was a time when those weresuper cheap and it was like,
well, just get a whole bunch ofthem.
Well, what's the customeracquisition cost on those?
(59:23):
If you go back to that customeracquisition cost number, wow,
we got a lot of them, but itdidn't change much from the
Google ads, right, like you know, because we had to wade through
a whole bunch of junk to get tothat deal, right.
So lead cost means nothing ifyou don't know your customer
(59:43):
acquisition costs.
That's my thoughts on that one.
Well, marty, this has beenawesome man, any like closing
thoughts, or you know what youknow as you've looked back over
the time.
What you know, what thingswould you?
You know, there's so manylessons that you learn along the
way.
There's so many lessons thatyou have to learn.
(01:00:04):
We talked about a lot of themhere.
But if you were just to kind ofsay, man, if I was, if I had to
just shut this down and pick itup in another place or, you
know, start all over, what wouldbe the steps that you would
take to do that?
Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
Oh wow, what a loaded question there.
That one's that one.
Yeah, that's a big one.
If I had to, if I had to justboot it down hard, reboot and
restart again, I would pay moreattention to exactly how I
wanted to build it up, what isgoing to be the exact strategy
(01:00:47):
as to how I am going to obtainthe customer, as to how I am
going to obtain the customer.
Luckily, now I have way more ofan idea as to how the structure
needs to go from one employeeto 40.
So I kind of know, like, whoneeds to do what job until that
(01:01:15):
job's overwhelmed.
And now you got somebody else.
So I would probably focus waymore on separating out the job
duties instead of starting outto where, like the salesman does
this big, large volume ofthings.
In my experience, the more thatyou narrow that down to where
they just do one thing and theydo it really well, they're going
to sell more, they're going tobe happier and you're actually,
(01:01:35):
as a company, going to be ableto control more of the process
and the experience that thehomeowner has.
And so that's what my processwould be, is I would start out
with my salesman just sellingand that's all they have to do,
and then I have like one personthat knows everything and they
can make sure that customer getsthe experience that results in
(01:01:56):
you doing a good job.
And that's that's what thatwould be.
The foundation of my new companyin a new place would be exactly
that, cause that's going tomaximize my sales.
It's going to make me, make itactually easier for me to
control the process, cause the,the, the lie, the lie and
thinking, lie and thinking ofdoing.
The model that I came from whenI first started, of the
(01:02:18):
salesman does everything from Ato Z, is that it's easier to
control that process becausethere's less moving parts.
That's a lie.
Once you get over three people,it's not true.
It's easier to control it ifall they're doing is selling and
now you control in office allthe other moving parts.
That would be the foundation ofa new company, awesome man.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Thanks for your time today.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning into theRoofing Success Podcast.
For more valuable content,visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom
While there, check out oursponsors for exclusive offers,
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(01:03:01):
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The website link is in thedescription.
Thanks for listening.
Most rivers start with sales.
Marty Shigog built his businesson something different
operations first, and thatdecision it changed everything.
In this episode we're talkingwith Marty, the founder of
Shigog Contracting in Orlando,florida.
He went from being an averagesalesman who cared deeply about
every job to building a companywhere field supervisors run
(00:23):
clean, professional projects andcommunication is dialed in.
Marty's story is about qualityover chaos.
You'll hear how his teamcreated detailed project
examination systems, set clearboundaries between sales and
production and even turnedhomeowner walkthroughs into
powerful review drivers.
(00:44):
What makes Marty unique is hisobsession with getting the job
right, even when it's hard, evenwhen it costs more.
He's a systems thinker with aheart for doing the right thing,
and his transparency isrefreshing.
In today's episode we'll unpackhow to go from disorganized to
dialed in and why building atruly operationally sound
(01:07):
roofing business might be thebest sales move you ever make.
Let's jump in with Marty Shigog.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
roofing business.
Marty Shigog with ShegogContracting, how are you today,
(01:28):
man?
I'm good, sir, I'm good.
Thank you, how's that?
You know you got the surfboardsout Florida's.
You know you're down in Florida.
You know you getting out to the, you getting out and catching
some waves recently, or what I'mhoping this Saturday is my
first time out.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
The weather's been back and forth, so it's been
like 85 degrees one day, thenit'll be like 65 the next.
So it's not super solid weatheryet for it, but it's right
about that time.
So this Saturday is going to bethe first.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Awesome man, that's awesome.
Well, tell us a little bitabout she Got Contracting.
How you got started in theroofing business Sure.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So she Got Contracting.
We're based in Orlando, florida.
I got my starting in this, likea lot of other guys did,
selling roofs, so I started outdoing a little bit of storm
chasing.
So I got the experience of whatit's like roofing in about
seven different states, whichwas extremely beneficial to not
(02:32):
only get a real well-roundedlook at how to install roofs and
do roofs and how the differentcomponents and different systems
work in different areas, but Igot a really good look at like
how the insurance side of thingsand insurance claims
restoration works in a bunch ofother different states as well.
So there came a time where myknowledge base got good enough
(02:58):
to where I wanted to go out onmy own and I wanted to do it
somewhere that I knew was goingto keep us busy year round.
So eventually we made the movedown to Florida back in 2015.
I got my roofing license andwe've kind of been doing it ever
since.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Awesome, man, where are you from originally?
I'm from Louisville, kentucky.
Okay, all right.
Yeah, so down to Florida, man,this is a place where there's
going to be more, you know, someconsistent business going on
and you get to surf, you know,when you get the chance, when
the weather's nice, right.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
So it only takes a couple of years to wear out the
cold, the cold part of you.
So now I can last about a weekin the cold and that's about it.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Your body changes quickly, right it's a.
I live here in Minneapolis andI you know I I joked that like I
got neighbors that are outshoveling snow and shorts and a
hoodie, you know doesn't evenbother them, you know, no big
deal.
I'm like this is crazy man, butyou try not to brag about it
you know, but it's hardsometimes.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
It's hard, you know, salesmen like it too.
They like to be able to sellall year round.
The productive ones do anyways.
I think there's some guys thatif they've done storm chasing
before and that they've donethat kind of work, or if they're
from, you know, a Northernclimate region and they come
down here, they some guys domiss that off season to where
(04:29):
they can kind of do whateverthey want to.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So it's a, it's a double-edged sword sometimes Up
here.
It's just, you know they get togo ice fishing, so you know
whole different thing.
We were talking I think it waslast week, we were talking,
talking and when you guys kindof, when you structured the
business, you have a businesspartner in yourself and you
(04:53):
really structured, give us somecontext to that.
I think that that was that.
That's a great insight.
You know a lot of, especiallycoming from the sales side.
A lot of, a lot of contractorsthat start a business that come
(05:14):
from the sales side.
They're like sales first right,like let's just, let's just go
out and sell what.
What made you?
Or?
Or let's talk about thatoperational first philosophy a
little bit.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Sure, I would love to say it was on purpose.
I would love to say we sat downand we were like, let's
strategize this, how do we wantto approach it?
I don't know that.
A whole lot of businesses startlike that when it's you and
another person, so I'd love tosay it's strategy.
But yeah, you're exactly right,most especially if they're
(05:49):
coming from the insurance claimsrestoration side of things.
Most of them are really goodsalesmen that are really strong
in sales and they see this bigopportunity to make more money
if they go out on their own, andso that's how they start their
business, with all theconcentration being on the
revenue and the margins andbeing able to make the most
(06:11):
amount of money possible, whichis there's nothing wrong with
that.
It's just that the side effectto that is is that the quality
and everything that's going intothose jobs and those customers
is going to be secondary, andit's probably going to be years
until they realize that and thenhave to start repairing things
on the back end, which will be aslow process.
(06:32):
So, with us, I probably startedthe business the way that I did,
because when I was a salesman,I really wasn't a great salesman
.
I did well, but I wasn't agreat salesman in terms of
convincing homeowners to go withme for any particular reason
(06:55):
other than the fact that I justwanted to do a good job.
And so when I started torecognize that there was value
there and that they liked that,then I kind of found what my
little niche was.
So after doing that, I justtold people that I would do the
best job for them that Ipossibly could, and since I
(07:17):
really didn't know a whole lot,that just included me
compulsively going to my jobsites and just like
micromanaging even though I hadno idea what I was doing at
first and then just making sureeverything went well.
When a piece of little tar paperfell on the ground, I was
running over to pick it up.
You know what I mean.
It started out at that leveland because I was on the job
(07:39):
sites all the time, I justslowly picked up on the inner
workings of how the roof goes on.
So by simply wanting to upholdmy promise to my customers that
I would do everything I could tomake sure that the jobs went
well, that taught me how to doroofs and how to do roofing
correctly and the pitfalls ofnot having supervisors at job
(08:01):
sites which is why I was thereand things like that.
Like I saw firsthand all ofthat stuff.
So whenever I went to go startthe company and do our own thing
, it was already in the mindsetof that had to come first,
because that's the only way Iknew how to sell.
So that's really how we startedthe company.
And then my business partnerhe's more on the front end sales
(08:23):
part of things and I broughtwith me my brother-in-law and
good friend, jonathan, who runsmy production now, and when he
came over to sell he kind ofhelped us build up the inner
workings of the production sideof things.
So we all kind of had that samementality of the quality first
(08:45):
type of thing, simply becausethat's the only way we knew how
to sell jobs.
So that kind of forced us intobuilding things with that in
mind first.
And then the sales were like anafter, not necessarily after.
I mean, we were all in this tomake money Obviously it's why
you start a company but thesales were a side effect of the
job and quality we were doingwith our customers.
(09:07):
So that's kind of how thatwhole thing developed.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
I think that's awesome and I think it makes me
think of that analogy of are youa salesperson or a sold person?
And you know, if you're a soldperson, you, you know you're
going to do everything you canto to help the homeowner work
(09:34):
with you versus the competition,because you know you're going
to do that well of a job forthem.
Right.
But to have the confidence ofbeing a sold person, you have to
have the details in order,right?
If you're a salesperson, who'swho's out selling?
And all of a suddenproduction's getting backed up
(09:54):
lots of problems on the jobsites, problems with crews,
problems with cleanup, problemswith, you know, problems with
problems with problems withyou're getting those phone calls
You're the one that sat downwith that homeowner and had them
sign that contract.
You're the one that, that,you're the face of that sale.
(10:15):
And so, uh, I see where youcame from, where it was like.
You know, man, maybe I'm notgood at sales technique, but if
I convince someone that I'mgoing to do the best job that I
possibly can, that that's yoursay.
You know that's that's being asold person.
You were sold that.
I don't care what happens, I'mgoing to be out here cleaning up
(10:38):
, cleaning up, helping out,doing whatever it takes to make
this job go well.
You were you.
You may have been sold onyourself at that time, right
Like in, in, in, in in yourefforts, but so I love that I I
love how it came together.
It may not have been the ideaupfront, but it just came
together that way.
What are some of the like keyprocesses or systems that that
(11:06):
you've implemented over theyears?
Or what's been the steppingstone, like what did?
What were some of the like thethings that you put in place
that made the most differencefirst?
And then, oh, then we moved onto this, then we moved on to
that.
What problems did you solvethat that really have made an
impact on the business?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Wow, did you solve that?
That really have made an impacton the business, wow.
So, um, over the years we hadto break the mold of uh, of how
we we first organized the rolesof what everyone did in the
company, and so in the very youknow, we we do what we're taught
until we know any different.
And so, like, our salesmen alsowere like the job site people
(11:51):
you know.
So in that sort of model it wasa matter of, like, trying to
get them to do as good of a joband communicating with the
homeowner.
And you know, communicatingwith the crew as we would have
done with the homeowner, and youknow, communicating with the
crew as we would have done.
And I think you quickly learnthat, like, if you're going to
scale anything past two or threereps, that's just not a working
(12:12):
model.
So, if you want to, so what youfind as you expand is that you
can't control all of thosesalesmen being really good
project managers, right.
So then it's like, okay, well,like, you start to see some
quality problems.
You start to get the phonecalls, some reps are good, you
know better than others, andthen you're like, okay, well,
(12:34):
like we, we have to build insome supervision.
In my, in my humble experience,if you're going to have a
supervisor on the roof, it hasto be someone different than
that is on the crew.
I have had to learn some reallyhard lessons and you just
simply cannot take one of thecrew members and make them a
(12:54):
supervisor.
In my experience it justdoesn't work.
Maybe I didn't do it right, butin my experience it works far
better if you hire a completelyseparate person to manage the
job site, manage the crew andthey work as a team.
That way there's no biasness.
So us implementing a fieldsupervisor, a non-crew member
(13:17):
field supervisor, was probablyone of the biggest moves that we
made to control the quality andimprove communication with the
homeowner, and I would love tosay it's an overnight success,
but in no way shape or form isit.
There's a lot of learning curvethat goes in there, from simply
having the field supervisormake sure the roof goes on well
(13:38):
to over time and as you getbigger and bigger and have more
field supervisors, do a shift ofroles between the salesman
communicating with the homeownerduring the build and now it's
the field supervisor.
And that is a very hard thingto work out all the details on
and control the overhead asyou're doing it.
(13:59):
So that was a huge thing thatwe put into place.
That probably had the biggestimpact on everything was field
supervisors managing the jobsite and then also let your
salesman go out and sell morejobs as well.
Yeah, so that was a really bigthing.
And I would say the secondbiggest thing was project
(14:19):
examination examination.
So, wow, there's a lot ofbusiness owners out there that
are just I mean, they get theirjobs done and scheduled and put
on lickety split.
And I come from that where,like your turn in is the
contract and like that's it, andthen it just gets put on.
(14:40):
Florida is just different, guys,it just is.
I've worked in seven otherstates.
I'm telling you Florida is justdifferent guys, it just is.
I've worked in seven otherstates.
I'm telling you Florida is justdifferent.
The roofs here can getcomplicated.
There's just small littlethings that you have to pay
attention to, all kinds ofbuilding codes and inspections.
So what we did is we built in afilter system where the jobs
actually get looked at bysomeone who knows what the heck
(15:02):
they're doing.
It's as simple as that.
It creates the problems youhave to fight.
There's bottlenecking, but youknow you've got to work through
that and the thing is is that ifyou examine those projects and
try to find problems ahead oftime, you're going to save
yourself money later and you'regoing to be more upfront with
the customer.
They're going to know moreissues up front than they are
(15:27):
later.
And that's probably the secondbiggest thing that we did as a
company that makes the largestimpact.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
That's awesome.
I want to dig into this alittle bit more that field
supervisor role.
What have you found are thequalities that you look for now
in a good field supervisor?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
The qualities of a good field supervisor.
It's got to be someone that canmesh well with the crew.
If they don't mesh well withthe crew, then it just doesn't
really matter.
So they got to be a little bitof a people person.
They have to understand inlarge part the Hispanic culture
and the way those guyscommunicate, because the way
they communicate is differentthan the way most of us
(16:12):
communicate.
So there has to be that.
Bilingual guys are way morepreferred.
Someone that's actually goingto take that, someone.
You got to find someone thatactually cares and none of it
really matters if they're justtrying to follow a checklist and
that's it.
It's too easy of a job tooverlook a whole lot of things
(16:37):
if you don't actually care aboutwhat you're doing.
But a lot of that comes fromyou know the culture of your
company, what you've done tobuild that culture of actually
caring about the type of productthat you're putting on and if
they'll buy into that andthey'll actually care about that
and you incentivize themcorrectly.
Now you've got someone that youcan rely on, even if they don't
(17:00):
know a whole lot.
We've set up company camptemplates, a field manager to
oversee the field supervisors.
We've got a lot of things inplace to make bringing in a new
person and quickly ramping themup to an experienced level.
So we've kind of closed thelearning curve gap through a lot
(17:21):
of things like templates andprocesses.
That was really valuablebecause you can't afford to wait
six months for a guy to go fromlittle to a whole lot of
experience.
That just doesn't happen.
So you got to put things inplace to be able to close that
learning curve gap.
But finding someone that willactually care about the job site
(17:44):
, that's what you got to find.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yeah, from an operational perspective.
You know I'm a big fan of EOSand metrics and you know metrics
for each person.
How do you measure care?
Like, what are you looking for?
That is, what feedback are yougetting from, from from the job,
from the customer, from thecrews, from the salespeople?
(18:08):
Like, what are you measuring todetermine to to really say,
yeah, that person really likethey're, they care about what
happens on their job site.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
So the easiest thing was uh, we give, we give small
little spiffs on two reallyimportant things.
Well, three really.
If they can get referrals, sothey're not getting any
referrals if they don't do agood job we have them take a
picture with the I love my roofsign.
So again, the homeowner is notgoing to pose for a picture with
(18:41):
you if you're not doing a goodjob.
And then, lastly, they ask forreviews at that time.
So they get a SPF for all threeof those things individually.
So, if nothing else, there'sone of their big driving
motivators to make sure thatthey keep the customer happy,
keep in communication with themand have a resulting good job.
(19:04):
That's the easiest.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, so it's an incentivization of the, of the
things that would that that leadto caring for the customer,
right, like that show you thatthis is what you know.
Hey, if the, if we took goodcare of this customer, they're
going to leave a review, they'regoing to take this picture,
they're going to right.
You have those things in place.
That's awesome.
You mentioned thatcommunication was a challenge in
(19:30):
the beginning and maybe youfigured it out now.
And, as we all know, like,business is always evolving and
there's always a problem tosolve, right, so it's not like
everyone's perfect, but like asyou're, as you implemented this
field supervisor role, how didyou know what were some of the
kind of things that came upearly on in the communication
(19:50):
process and how did you solvethem?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So the first obstacle is creating a division between
the salesman and the fieldsupervisor.
You got to solve that first,because what will happen is the
homeowner wants to talk to thesalesman and now you're trying
to force a field supervisor ontothem and field supervisor is
trying to communicate with thehomeowner.
(20:16):
Homeowner doesn't want tocommunicate with them, they want
to communicate with the otherguy.
That's the first hurdle you gotto get over.
You got to create that clearline of division, and so that
was very difficult and it reallywe came to a point with it
where we had to make it to wherewe told the salesman listen,
like had to make it to where wetold the salesman listen, like,
(20:38):
once you turn in this job, yourrole is over.
Obviously, if the customercalls you, you know you take
care of them, you get them tothe right department, but you
don't answer questions for themwhen it pertains to production,
because then we're just going tomiscommunicate.
That happened for a very longtime I would say a year From the
point that we tried to do thisconversion.
(21:00):
It took a year for for that tostop happening like a lot, and
so once we kind of made that athing, then it became a little
easier.
Then it became not only is yourrole over, but like you need to
, at the end of the sale youreally need to start prepping
the homeowner on what to expectnext, who's going to be their
(21:20):
next point of contact.
So when you start making thatpreparation, then the homeowner
starts understanding.
Then we started doing likecontract calls to review the
contract with the homeownerafter the job was turned in, and
in that contract call we'refurther explained to them hey,
when the job goes on, this isgoing to be your point of
contact.
They're going to touch basewith you when they come out
(21:42):
there during the whole project,talk to this person.
And so we're just reminding thehomeowner throughout the
process who they're supposed tobe communicating with.
And that really dials back now.
Now we know who is supposed tobe communicating and now you can
actually focus on thatcommunication happening.
So after that's done, it'sgetting the field supervisor to
(22:04):
text the homeowner in themorning, give an update,
introduce themselves.
Hey, here's who I am, I'm goingto be there or I'm going to get
materials and I'll be therelater, that sort of thing.
So opening up that line ofcommunication via text is pretty
big them showing up,introducing themselves, giving
the card, that whole thing.
That really sets the tone andthat's how we were able to
(22:30):
improve the communication.
And I would say, lastly, doinga final walkthrough with the
homeowner, giving them anopportunity to point out
anything that they can andanything that they want to and
sign off on it.
That kind of like closes theloop.
It's not 100%, because I don'tcare.
If you walk around the house 10times with the homeowner four
(22:51):
days from now, they're going tofind something, they're going to
point it out and be like why isthat shadow right there?
I've never seen that shadow atsix o'clock.
They're just going to startnoticing stuff, but you want to
reduce it as much as you can.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
But that's what I've found to be effective.
I think that's a couple ofreally key points for people.
We always want this stuff tohappen right away, but it takes
man, it takes some time.
Nope, we got to do it this way.
Nope, we got to do it this way.
Nope, we got to do it this way.
The thing that I want tohighlight for everyone that you
said was sales reps don't answerquestions about production, and
(23:30):
so if that is just a simplething right there like that, you
know I have to hand you off tothis person to answer that
question.
I'm not allowed to answer thatquestion.
I'm in trouble if I answer thatquestion Because then, like you
(23:51):
said, that's where themiscommunication starts to
happen.
I had heard that.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Chick-fil-A took something like six years to get
everyone to say my pleasure, andthat's I kind of like.
For some reason that kind ofstuck with me because it made it
OK for me to take on taking awhile to get simple process to
happen consistently.
And I don't know if it's true,it was just something I heard on
(24:16):
somebody's you know podcast orsomething.
I heard it somewhere and itreally just stuck with me that
it's okay for these things totake a while.
You know it's hard to breakcertain habits and get people to
do something across the board.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, and a lot of times we just have improper
expectations right.
For us, it's like, well, justsay this, but they're the ones
that take that call from thehomeowner, right?
And that homeowner is askingthem questions and they're like,
really, you don't know this,like why don't you know this?
And so the easy answer is yes,I know this.
Right, like yeah, I know this,I know this, I'll tell you right
(24:51):
now.
But that's not the right answer, right, the right answer is let
me get you over to your fieldsupervisor and they'll be able
to answer all the questions foryou.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
The toughest thing with that was the misconception
that, like from an ownerstandpoint, I'm like hey,
salesman, guess what?
You don't have to fill thesequestions, we got it.
I mean, literally we were backjust like high-fiving each other
going these guys are going tolove us and it was the opposite.
It was the opposite.
They were angry about itbecause they would still have to
(25:22):
feel the call and they felt anobligation to not look like an
idiot in front of the homeownerand passing them off, and it had
like the exact opposite effectand it really took a while to
figure out how to properly setthe expectations for them and
how to feel those calls from nowon.
I overlooked the fact thatyou're going to have to train
the salesman on how to handlethat call now, and so it was one
(25:45):
of those things that we justthought we were hitting it out
of the ballpark and everyone wasgoing to be thrilled and it was
the opposite.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Isn't it funny, like I mean, you think, like man,
this solves such a huge problemfor them and then you just don't
get that buy in it.
But that's the expectations,right, we have to have
expectations.
We got to give ourselves somegrace.
We got to give ourselves sometime.
It doesn't happen overnight.
Before we carry on with theepisode, let's give a shout out
(26:14):
to one of our sponsors.
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Another thing I want to go backto is the project examination.
What is like?
How did you begin to developthe process of project exam, of
(27:18):
examining each project?
Talk about that a little bitLike what, who does what, what
you're looking at.
You know you said it could be abottleneck at times.
You know what, what's thatprocess for you?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
So the the more things that you try to to set up
and implement for your companyto to make things better, the
more that you realize that youhave to stage it that way, and
so I'm trying to think back towhen exactly we started doing
(27:54):
that and why.
So there's just certain thingsthat we started doing as a
company, like here in Florida.
It's something different thanwhat you guys experience Other
places.
We have stuccoed houses, right.
So in stuccoed houses you havelike dead valleys, you have
chimneys, you have high riskleak areas, and so in Florida a
(28:18):
lot of contractors would justsimply overlook those because
there's flashing there.
But whenever you change theflashing in those corners,
what's going to happen is you'regoing to create an additional
gap in the corner.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
no, matter what you do, I don't care.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
The reason it doesn't leak is because they're taking
a handful of roofing cement andthey're slapping it on there and
it's going to last maybe oneyear, two years, five years, you
don't know that's if you donothing.
So what we realized looking atthe data, was that, man, all of
our leaks are coming from these,like two areas.
So we, just, across the board,made it a rule that we're either
(28:52):
going to reflash it withcounter flashing, we're going to
cut stucco and redo the stuccoand redo the flashing, you know,
to bring it back to itsoriginal state.
That's complicated yeah, it'svery, very complicated and it's
very time consuming, andespecially, even if you go back
with counter flashing, what youhave is you have homeowners that
(29:14):
were not prepared to see anyraw, shiny, shiny metal on the
face of their house.
And now they do.
And so it was through all thattrial and error where we're like
, oh, we did a great job, butnow the homeowner's mad because
it doesn't look good.
What if we paint it?
All right, what if we cut thestucco?
But cutting the stucco is likefour times the cost.
We realize that's just oneexample of like a few different
(29:38):
ones where there just has to becertain decisions made and
evaluated before that job goesinto production, because if you
try to solve it at the job site,everything is 10 times harder.
And so we really looked atthose and we were like, all
right, well, let's start lookingat the jobs before they go to
(29:58):
be scheduled to get a handle onthat one situation.
And then that one situation ledto oh well, let's go ahead and
catch this, this and this.
And then it was like, how havewe not been doing this before?
We're catching all the problems?
And so that's kind of what itled to was.
Then we started developing achecklist system of everything
we're going to look for.
(30:22):
It's a little difficult becausethe sales reps it takes a little
bit more work on their end.
They got to get a lot moredetailed pictures.
There's definitely some things.
If you're going to put it inplace, there's things you have
to consider.
There's a lot of things you'regoing to have it in place.
There's things you have to likeconsider.
There's a lot of things you'regoing to have to work through.
It's going to have an effect onwhat you require from your
(30:44):
salesman.
You know to turn in like aperfect packet um, they're going
to have to go back and getstuff.
You know.
If they miss it, um and it.
You got to be able to make itto where the highest level stuff
is being looked at by yourhighest level employee.
If you take the person with allthe roof knowledge and have them
(31:05):
look at, like job profile, setup stuff, well then you're
taking your most highly paid,experienced person.
You're having to do the mostmenial tasks and, to be
(31:35):
perfectly honest with you, itwasn't until this past year,
year and a half, that we reallystarted working.
Start looking at your bottomline and you start going.
This is expensive, fieldsupervisors are expensive and
we're bottlenecking our jobs tothis one person.
We need to fix this, and thoseare the problems that you have
to start solving, because theother option is you go back to
(31:58):
doing what everyone else isdoing, that all of your salesmen
that you're hiring are used todoing, which is you mean I've
got to do all this to turn in aperfect job at my old place?
We just we just turn in thecontract with, like the colors
and like that's it, and it'sjust kind of like listen, like
once you know you can't unknowit, know you can't unknow it.
Like there's no way that Icould take my production team
(32:20):
now and go, hey, all that coolstuff that we do now and all
those mistakes and all thebetter job we do on the job, and
we know the customer is goingto get a better roof because of
and all of the mysterious thingsthat we're fixing now, and the
homeowner is not going to find,three years from now, stop doing
those because we can't affordit.
That just becomes not an option, and so you have to figure out
(32:40):
how to financially make it work.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Yeah, To me.
I mean, I could see theresistance from a sales
perspective, but I can see howyou could frame it in a way
where now they have acompetitive advantage in the
sales process, right, you know,making sure that the customer
understands that all of this isgoing to be done too.
And this is why, and andeveryone else that comes by
(33:06):
afterwards or before is like ohyeah, they're not doing this
Like I think it would.
I would say, has it?
Has it become that now?
I mean, I maybe it's in thebeginning or with a sales rep,
do they see the value in thesales process now?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I love the fact that all my salesmen are going to see
this.
This is fun.
So the thing about it is that Ithink you have two different
types of salesmen out there andwith a small degree of gray
You've got your salesman on thestructure and in the companies
that they just sell, like thecontingency contracts and
they're out.
Or maybe they put it into alittle bit further contract, but
(33:48):
they're just completely out.
They don't even field callsfrom homeowners.
They don't really care how thejob's put on because they don't
have to deal with the homeownerscalling them.
They're just that far out ofthe production side and solely
focusing on the sales side.
Those salesmen have never feltthe pain of what it's like to
not do a good job.
The other guys the other guysthat are a little bit more
(34:12):
involved in either the contractand do fill those calls from the
homeowner or are used todealing with that, when they
come into this system and theydo what they're doing, they see
what we're doing.
They immediately see the valueand the competitive advantage
that they now have.
And I actually have salesmennow that are with me simply
because they were tired ofgetting the phone calls from the
(34:36):
other people.
They're like man, I just can'tdeal with telling selling a
homeowner on something and thenlike it totally not going the
way it was supposed to, and sothat's.
We've just, incidentally, foundone of our competitive
advantages, just you know, justby trying to do the best job
that we can do.
So the salesman, it's a littlebit of a thing and, again, it's
(35:03):
still not perfect.
It's always something thatwe're working on and finding
that line between expectationsand then like, what can we live
without?
And there's stuff I've seenfrom Elon Musk saying you should
always be adding back in 10%because you're taking away a
whole bunch of other stuff inyour process.
And I try to do that.
(35:24):
We built this super micro,detailed thing and you find that
it's just too detailed and soyou got to take some of it away,
find out what you need to putback in and just find that
balance.
And it's really hard, it'sreally really hard to find the
balance, but you know it's theresomewhere.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I think that that's, that's something that that a lot
, of, a lot of times, when we'rebuilding out systems and
processes and operational,operational activities, a lot of
times we're coming up with it,like you said, even even the
field supervisor role that allof these things, times we're
coming up with it, like you said, even even the field supervisor
role that all of these thingswe're coming up with it from our
idea of what could, what couldbe better, but what?
(36:07):
What that made me think of whatyou just said was that a lot of
times you don't it's all.
You need the feedback loop.
Like you need the feedback loop, you can you can sit around for
a year and build systems andprocesses and not do any
business, and then you startdoing business and you're
running customers through that.
Your team members are operatingthese systems and processes.
(36:30):
It's not going to be what youthought.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Let's go ahead and ruin the surprise for everybody
out there.
It's none of your ideas aregoing to work the way they're
supposed to.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
So maybe a better way to think about it is from a
like in software, we call itminimum viable product when
you're building software.
So what we do is we decide whatis our minimum viable product,
like, what is the smallestamount of features that I can
give to a customer to be able toget feedback from them?
(37:09):
And then, once we get thatfeedback, we iterate on that
feedback, right, so now it goesoh, okay, everyone, they worked
with this and now they're askingfor this feature set, so now
we'll add that feature set andthen we'll get feedback on that
feature set and how it worked.
And then, like there's a greatbook called the Lean Startup
(37:30):
that, for everyone listening,that that really outlines the
MVP model and I but I think I'vetaken it into other aspects of
business, into things like thisas you're doing these things,
you just say, okay, what's ourminimum viable product?
What's the easiest way to getthis thing going and get some
(37:53):
feedback from the team, from theteam from the customers, from
everyone, and then you justcontinue to iterate on it.
There will never be a time inyour business that you are not
iterating it won't all cometogether.
It just won't.
There's no, there's no time inyour business it's you.
(38:16):
Go to ge and all thesecompanies that have been around
for you know a hundred years.
They are still having meetingsabout what they could do better
and how to change this processand how to affect that process
and what, like it never ends.
So if we accept that and justcontinue to say, okay, well,
that one didn't work, let's makea little adjustment, right?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
I remember thinking like five years ago I remember
just sitting there being likeman, I can't wait until we just
have all these processes inplace and then we can just run
the business based on theprocesses and like we do.
We don't have to like bethinking of all this new stuff
all the time.
And then a couple of years agoI had the realization of it's
always going to be like this.
(39:00):
All right, it just is what itis.
And then it slowly becomes alittle bit Okay.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yeah, that's where everyone needs to get to the
okay.
The okay that there's anotherproblem to be solved there, you
know, and that that that'sreally, really impactful.
So, um, you got you.
In hearing you talk about yourprocesses and in hearing you
talk about your company.
In hearing you talk about weidentified, what did you say?
(39:29):
Four regions, that of the?
We identified, what did you say?
Four regions of the roof buildthat had the most problems.
Was it four?
You have to have some data.
You must be collecting somesort of data to be able to come
to those conclusions.
Was that something that you didintentionally or was it like
(39:51):
all right, we got problems?
Let's just look through thelast 20 jobs and see what the
issues were.
How did that come to be?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
I think, like so many other things, it's kind of a
slow process.
It's.
You know, you start out.
You start out just trying tolook back at okay, well, like
where are all our leaks comingfrom?
Let's start a spreadsheet.
Anytime there's a leak, I wantto know what crew it was, I want
to know where on the roof itwas and if it was our fault or
(40:21):
not.
And then, like, you build thatlist for a while and then you
start staring at it and you'relike, okay, that was pretty
useful.
What else can we have a list on?
Speaker 1 (40:30):
And you just kind of like, all right well now.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Now I want to know this and now I want to know that
.
And, uh, once you, once youkind of figure out how to
delegate those lists to peopleand make them their
responsibility, then it becomeseven easier.
Because I started out, I mean,like a lot of owners I'm, I like
to control everything and solike I would want to manage all
(40:52):
these spreadsheets and do allthis, and it's just kind of like
.
Then you stop wanting to getmore data because you have to do
it.
So if you can assign the dataresponsibility to other people,
then it's endless.
Whatever you want data on, youjust have someone make it a part
of their job and truly, themore information and data you
have, the better every.
(41:13):
The more potential you have,the more potential you have to
handle problems or increasesales.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, that's a key insight.
Like it's it.
It it will show you where youneed to work on, what you need
to work on Right, like the, the,and if you don't have any data,
you don't even know what towork on.
You may feel something, but itmight not be true.
Right, you may feel likethere's a communication issue
(41:42):
over here, but it's somethingelse over here.
You may feel that it's that youneed to read do your process in
in.
Uh, um, like removing the stucco, you know what I mean.
Like we may need to do a wholedifferent thing here.
It may be something completelydifferent.
Um, yeah, those are great,great things to cover.
(42:06):
Okay, so you, I want to getinto the way that you kind of
built out SheGog and kind ofusing a, what we talked about it
like last week, it was like a.
You came into it kind of like astorm chaser and so you kind of
spread out quickly around thestate where there was a need for
(42:31):
work, and then you know, kindof built it up over there.
Talk us through that, like whatwas, how did you, what was the
expansion like and what lessonsdid you learn from that?
Speaker 2 (42:44):
so the uh, the scariest thing from going from a
storm chaser mentality as asalesman to owning a company and
just staying in one spot is howam I going to continue to get
business in one area If youspent five years going from like
(43:06):
one storm to the other and likeyou kind of get a sense of when
it starts to dry up, like justa man?
If you're a storm chaserlistening this, just imagine
whatever storm you're at now.
Imagine having to stay therefor five years.
It was a really scary thing.
So it's like you know, can, canwe do this?
Can we stay in one spot?
Other people are doing it, andso then you just have to kind of
(43:30):
like learn how to do that, andI think for a really long time
you just take advantage of everyopportunity you possibly can.
And what that did is it waskind of like playing the game of
risk, like we had, like youknow, our army right here, and
then, if you look back, we gotlike one soldier there and one
(43:50):
soldier there and one soldierthere, and and before you know
it you're kind of strung around,and so as your tactics in your
company start to change, thatspreading out becomes a problem
and if I could do it all overagain, I would centralize my
(44:10):
efforts, but I get that wouldrequire me knowing a lot of
things that I just didn't know.
Then you know, if you're tryingto feel you know, put in field
supervisors, that's a whole loteasier.
If you're just trying to do aone hour radius, you know one
Orlando, florida Fieldsupervision great easy.
(44:34):
You can manage a couple ofdifferent jobs at one point.
Everything's going to be inthis nice little area.
But right now, currently, youknow we are from everywhere,
from Jacksonville all the waydown to Rockledge, which is, you
know, about the middle ofFlorida East Coast, and then
from there all the way over toTampa on the West Coast.
So when you have jobs that canpotentially be four hours away
(44:59):
from each other and you've onlygot so many field supervisors,
you're talking logistics andyou're talking like a whole
different ask of your fieldsupervisor and you have to start
rotating, like them stayingovernight and per diems and
additional overheads that youweren't prepared for.
It become and and that's noteven to get into the whole
(45:21):
strategy of online marketingmarketing dollars is a real
thing.
So you and for for everyone,with three salesmen and you just
came from storming, and that'snot a thing for you guys.
You're just used to justknocking doors and I was there.
But when you start looking atinvesting marketing dollars into
a geographical area online, yourealize that your budget will
(45:44):
only carry you so far, and atsome point you have to pick a
place, and so I think some ofwhat we're doing now is taking
some of the strategicdoor-to-door sales, strategic
marketing, and really dialing itinto one specific area and then
, once we've kind of got it downpat, then taking it to some of
(46:04):
the other places that we are.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
That we have salesmen , but it's not as highly
concentrated as our meat andpotatoes.
Yeah, so something thathappened was your team got
spread out because of goingafter this work and now the
lesson was okay, well, man,there's a whole lesson around
marketing.
There's a whole lesson aroundthe field supervisor role.
There's a whole lesson there.
Now let's dial that in.
And now, now we can say okay,now we're going to go and
(46:35):
support that sales rep with thismodel and build it out around
there and and and and kind of uh, do it better, build it, you
know, do it do?
it better this time, Right, Um,and so you know.
There's always, there's alwaysthings that we learn along the
way.
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(47:40):
So I understand the fieldsupervisor role and how that
works.
Let's talk about marketing alittle bit.
What are the lessons thatyou've learned around marketing?
You know, especially fromcoming from the storm side, door
to door sales man it's.
You know hoots and knuckles, itdoesn't matter, Like you don't
(48:01):
need any, anything but rightLike a truck and a and and your
knuckles, and you can.
You can, you can create a goodliving, yes, but when you're
trying to create a company, abusiness in a certain area, boy,
that changes.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
It is yes, yeah, it's like there's brand building and
then there's marketing andthey're two different things
with vastly different budgets.
And it really it took me a longtime to realize that in the
beginning, the commissions thatwe were paying our self-gen
(48:40):
salesmen, that was our marketingbudget.
Because people, you know guys,would come up to me or not,
other businesses would solicitme on marketing and stuff, and
they would ask me, hey, like,what's your marketing budget?
And I'd be like, uh, nothing.
And I just didn't realize,cause all I knew was door to
door and I didn't realize thatyou know really what I'm paying
(49:03):
myself, jen guys, that is mymarketing budget.
And so I think that what I wishI could go back and tell myself
before I tried anything islisten, like, if you're going to
not mix the two, if you'regoing to do door to door, then
take your door to door reps andhave them do door to door.
(49:25):
Don't, don't try to mix ingiving marketing leads to
door-to-door guys.
It does not work.
All you're going to do isbasically pay them to not have
to knock doors.
And then you realize you got todo some sort of lead fee.
And then, even when you do thelead fee.
(49:45):
You realize that you're stillnot getting ahead because you're
taking time away from theknocking doors and it.
You got to separate it.
You got to go with a clear planand and stick to it and not
mingle the two.
Man, I wish I could go back andtell myself that that was a,
that was a big lesson that Imean from from you know, doing
(50:06):
marketing for a few hundredroofing companies.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Boy, I knew that lesson that was.
You know, I would tell owners alot of times if they had, if
all of their reps weredoor-to-door sales reps like
they're not gonna like a leadfrom Google, they're not gonna
like a lead from Facebook,they're gonna have to stop
(50:30):
knocking the neighborhood thatthey're in or that they're going
to have to stop knocking theneighborhood that they're in or
that they're working and knowingthat there's, there's
additional business here,they're going to get in their
truck and they're going to drive30, 45 minutes to the other
side of town to run a Facebookor Google ads lead.
It's kind of to your point,like they're from their time
perspective.
(50:51):
It's kind of to your point,like they're from their time
perspective.
So what?
What we found a lot of times isthe, the attention to the,
those leads coming in from thedigital marketing side.
You know, we just don't respondto those as efficiently as we do
.
No-transcript.
(51:19):
He's going to sign two moredeals today and you want him to
drive across town for the hopeof signing a deal, right?
Speaker 2 (51:28):
Like a lot less close percentage.
You know a lot less closepercentage.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
It's a.
It's a tough one man.
It's a really tough balance tomake.
So how have you?
So?
Do you have a?
You know, a team that aredoor-to-door sales and a team
that are kind of more lead gensales people?
Speaker 2 (51:48):
so, okay, I think I think it's important to note the
precursor for any of that isyou got to be prepared to
measure it.
You can't measure it.
If you cannot measure what isgoing to happen with the money
that you're putting into it,don't, don't even start, you're
just throwing money away.
I wish I could have known thatas well.
And it's really, really hard.
(52:10):
If you're never, if you're notused to measuring anything
especially if all your guys aredoor-to-door and you're not used
to measuring their successbecause they're all self-gen
Then measuring close rates andsuccess rates and booking rates
and all that other awesome datais extremely alien and it's
going to take a lot of time.
We're still working on it.
We still don't even have itgreat.
(52:31):
We do it okay, but it's stillnot even great.
It's that hard, it is hard toget that information.
So once you can, I think thenyou can start entertaining it,
as long as you can like have awhole different like business
plan.
For just that we got kind oflucky.
Again, as with as with a lot ofthings, it was kind of
(52:55):
unintentional.
But I have a few different guys.
I have a few different self-genguys that just simply don't do
door-to-door.
They are high producers butit's because they're in
networking groups.
They're just high networkersand they get all their business
through that.
So, hey, if they're alreadynetworking and they're already
doing that, for them to runleads is not that big of a deal.
(53:18):
They're game for that, they'reopen to that.
We also tried hiring on acompletely different commission
structure, a more salarycommission structure,
specifically to run leads, andthat worked pretty good.
Okay, but you know, wedefinitely forego the thought of
(53:39):
giving our door-to-doorself-gen guys any sort of
marketing leads.
It just doesn't work.
So we do.
We have a separate team to takethose on and really, even right
now in our own business, we'rereally trying to look at how
much we have going on and goingman, are we trying to do too
much?
Is there one aspect of this thatwe should just really put all
(54:02):
of our concentration on?
Instead of trying to write an adbudget, maybe just dial it back
to having a budget that just issmaller, that focuses on brand
recognition, to help out ourdoor-to-door guys and to give us
some, you know, organic leads,and then just focus everything
on door-to-door and, like thefront or closer model and that's
(54:25):
kind of where we're at rightnow is really just focusing on
what we see being the mostsuccessful is really just
focusing on what we see beingthe most successful, and maybe
once we get that dialed in a bitthen we can kind of shift our
focus over.
But just like in the book, theOne Thing there comes a point
where you just simply can't beeffective in trying to look at
(54:47):
too many it doesn't matter howmany people you got working on
it really as a company to getone big business model to work,
whether it's marketing or doorto door, you really got to just
focus on it.
And we're kind of in the middleof learning that lesson right
now.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Yeah, that's a great, that's great feedback from your
marketing perspective to.
My favorite metrics arecustomer acquisition costs and
long-term value.
The long-term value of acustomer Are you guys like is
that part of?
Are you measuring customeracquisition costs per channel?
Is that something that you'relooking at or or are you just
doing lead costs?
Where are you, where are youguys at with that, with that
(55:23):
process?
Speaker 2 (55:25):
We're kind of in the middle of breaking those numbers
down and and getting it fromlike.
From from like not even lead,but like what's.
You know, when you dopay-per-click, the very first
one is like it's like theinterest click and then like the
ratio from that to an actuallead and that you know that from
(55:46):
lead to booking and then showrate and then close rate, and
then it's just kind of like yeah, you got to work all those
numbers back all the way to likewhat does it cost per deal?
And that number is scary forlike a while, yeah it's scary.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
So I've been having this conversation a lot lately,
lot lately, and I think thatbefore any contractor begins
allocating a marketing budget,they have to determine what
their optimal customeracquisition cost range is.
I like range because it is arange, it's not one number.
(56:31):
Of course your optimal customeracquisition cost is zero, but
that's whatever.
Let's throw that out becauseyou're not a real business owner
if that's your customeracquisition cost.
So, determining that range of,hey, we're between here and here
(56:53):
.
You know, on the high end man, Idon't like it when it's up
there, but I know that when wedo that job, that customer is
going to be a raving fan andthey're going to refer us.
That's the.
You're thinking about thatlong-term value of a customer.
On the low end it's like, boom,we're printing money here,
(57:13):
let's go, you know, um and so,so.
So that that's what I like to,to give people a, a kind of some
context around in that is is,develop that range because and
and all those metrics thatyou're talking about, click to,
to, to lead to, call toappointment book, to show that's
(57:33):
all phenomenal data to have.
But even if you get to the endof that and you have to know
that customer.
You have to know if you'rewithin your customer acquisition
cost range.
Speaker 2 (57:49):
You have to know what your commission structure for
the guys taking those are.
Because if you don't know whatyour range is, your acceptable
range, then you either don'tknow what commission to give
someone, or you know acommission to give someone but
you don't know the range.
Like you got to know what yourending net looks like on that,
(58:12):
and we actually started that alittle late.
I wish we ended up getting thatdown, but it was just kind of
like oh man, yeah, that wouldhit us.
It was like all right, well,like the cost per contract
number is like really high.
Well, what does that mean?
You know, what does that meanthat we can do with commissions
here?
And it's like man, we we'rethinking about that all wrong.
(58:33):
We should know that numberfirst and then get into it so
that we can drive it down andeither call it a win or a loss.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
That's right, and knowing that end metric will
help everyone listening.
That's the one, because now youhave something to shoot for.
You have something to measureyour success against.
A lot of times you got guys outdoor to door.
There is a customer acquisitioncost in that.
(59:02):
From all of your digitalmarketing, direct mail, all of
those things you're going to,there's a number direct mail,
all of those things you're goingto like.
There's a number Facebook leadsnot as much nowadays, but there
was a time when those weresuper cheap and it was like,
well, just get a whole bunch ofthem.
Well, what's the customeracquisition cost on those?
(59:23):
If you go back to that customeracquisition cost number, wow,
we got a lot of them, but itdidn't change much from the
Google ads, right, like you know, because we had to wade through
a whole bunch of junk to get tothat deal, right.
So lead cost means nothing ifyou don't know your customer
(59:43):
acquisition costs.
That's my thoughts on that one.
Well, marty, this has beenawesome man, any like closing
thoughts, or you know what youknow as you've looked back over
the time.
What you know, what thingswould you?
You know, there's so manylessons that you learn along the
way.
There's so many lessons thatyou have to learn.
(01:00:04):
We talked about a lot of themhere.
But if you were just to kind ofsay, man, if I was, if I had to
just shut this down and pick itup in another place or, you
know, start all over, what wouldbe the steps that you would
take to do that?
Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
Oh wow, what a loaded question there.
That one's that one.
Yeah, that's a big one.
If I had to, if I had to justboot it down hard, reboot and
restart again, I would pay moreattention to exactly how I
wanted to build it up, what isgoing to be the exact strategy
(01:00:47):
as to how I am going to obtainthe customer, as to how I am
going to obtain the customer.
Luckily, now I have way more ofan idea as to how the structure
needs to go from one employeeto 40.
So I kind of know, like, whoneeds to do what job until that
(01:01:15):
job's overwhelmed.
And now you got somebody else.
So I would probably focus waymore on separating out the job
duties instead of starting outto where, like the salesman does
this big, large volume ofthings.
In my experience, the more thatyou narrow that down to where
they just do one thing and theydo it really well, they're going
to sell more, they're going tobe happier and you're actually,
(01:01:35):
as a company, going to be ableto control more of the process
and the experience that thehomeowner has.
And so that's what my processwould be, is I would start out
with my salesman just sellingand that's all they have to do,
and then I have like one personthat knows everything and they
can make sure that customer getsthe experience that results in
(01:01:56):
you doing a good job.
And that's that's what thatwould be.
The foundation of my new companyin a new place would be exactly
that, cause that's going tomaximize my sales.
It's going to make me, make itactually easier for me to
control the process, cause the,the, the lie, the lie and
thinking, lie and thinking ofdoing.
The model that I came from whenI first started, of the
(01:02:18):
salesman does everything from Ato Z, is that it's easier to
control that process becausethere's less moving parts.
That's a lie.
Once you get over three people,it's not true.
It's easier to control it ifall they're doing is selling and
now you control in office allthe other moving parts.
That would be the foundation ofa new company, awesome man.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Thanks for your time today.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning into theRoofing Success Podcast.
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