April 29, 2025 • 55 mins
Most roofers WANT referrals, but they’re going about it ALL wrong. They chase realtors, insurance agents, and past customers without a clear strategy. But what if you could build a referral machine that feeds your business on autopilot?
In this episode, we dive deep with Steven Ragsdale of Blacksmith Roofing, who cracked the code to scaling a $6M+ roofing company WITHOUT storm chasing, door knocking, or buying leads. Instead, he built a highly profitable, referral-driven roofing business by doing things differently.
✅ The number one reason most roofers struggle with referrals (and how to fix it)
✅ Why “Hobby-Based Marketing” is the secret weapon for endless leads
✅ How hiring the right sales team doubles your revenue
✅ Why focusing on the RIGHT customer experience fuels unstoppable growth
If you want to build a roofing company that thrives year after year without chasing the next storm, this episode is for you.
🔗 Links:
https://blacksmithroofing.com/
facebook.com/blacksmithroofing
instagram.com/blacksmith_roofing
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How do you scale your roofing business to $6 million
plus without storm chasing,without relying on door knocking
and without buying leads?
Steven Ragsdale of BlacksmithRoofing figured it out.
He built a highly profitablereferral-driven roofing company
in Oklahoma a market known forinsurance restoration by doing
(00:22):
things differently.
In this episode, you'll learnhow hiring the right sales team
can double your revenue, whyhobby-based marketing and we
coined the term on this episodeis the secret to getting
referrals on autopilot, and thereal reason why most roofing
companies struggle with growth,and how to fix it.
(00:43):
If you want to build a roofingcompany that thrives year after
year without chasing the nextstorm, this is the episode for
you.
Let's get into it with StephenRagsdale from Blacksmith Roofing
.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
(01:03):
roofing business.
Hey, we got Steven Ragsdaleback with Blacksmith Roofing,
broken Arrow, oklahoma.
How are you, brother?
I'm good man.
How are you Good?
Good to have you back on.
You know, we were talking aweek or so ago maybe a couple of
weeks ago now about you know,kind of an update on the company
(01:25):
, the growth that you guys havehad.
Let's for people who didn'tlisten to the first episode with
you, let's give them a littleintro to yourself and Blacksmith
and then we'll get to talkingabout all the fun stuff you're
doing.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Sure, yeah, man, I think last time we met we were
talking I think we were like atwo to three million, maybe
flirting with four milliondollar company at the time, and
I feel like that was probablythree or four years ago and so
since that time we have nowwe're sitting about a five and a
half million dollar company.
We'll probably flirt with six,maybe even seven million this
(02:00):
year, just in the roofing side.
You know we've done this nowabout 12 years and my business
partner he came from the windowsand siding industry prior and
so him and I sometimes in thewintertime when things were slow
for fund money, we wouldinstall windows and stuff just
to help with the huntingventures and different things
(02:20):
like that.
Right, and our wives were happythat we were out of the house.
So after a couple of months ofbeing there, but, um, over time
that kind of just grew and hewas like you know, with the
connections we have withinstallers that he's worked with
for over 20 years andeverything, he was like we
should uh look at starting awindow division.
So we did that and you know weprobably only did a quarter of a
(02:41):
million this year.
This is our first year and wedidn't market it, we didn't do
anything.
It was just word of mouth, andso this year, though, we have a
window salesman dedicated tothat, so I think that part of
the industry will really grow.
For us, obviously, roofing isstill our main deal.
I think that's the biggestthing that we see.
A lot of times, at least in ourmarket.
Roofing companies just becomeGCs of everything, right, and so
(03:07):
the we're really big on justbeing roofers, and now we're
just going to be really big onbeing window guys, right, so
that's going to be what ourfocus is.
We did.
We're not looking to grow othertrades, but this one just kind
of fit really well in the homefor us.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So yeah, that's awesome Finding those
complimentary services offeringservice offerings, but also
having the experience in it,right, your business partner,
having the experience in it, youknow, gives you guys a definite
boost in that right.
You know, when we were talkingthe other day, I mean you guys
are in, you know, broken Arrow,oklahoma.
So the Tulsa area, you knowOklahoma, is known to be a storm
(03:45):
restoration market right.
More so in Oklahoma City, butdefinitely the you know your
area also.
But what was fascinating to meis that that's not what you guys
are doing.
That's not how you're growing.
So I wanted to start off bytalking about.
You know, like the big questionreally is how do you scale a
(04:07):
roofing business in a retailmodel without chasing storms in
a storm market?
Like what do you?
You know, what are you guysdoing?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Man, it's crazy, it's almost Sunday school.
Answer right, you treat peopleright and it'll just grow.
You take care of the customerand stop worrying about the
money and the money will followthat Right, and we've really
made that model the wholeculture of our company.
Even from the last time that wespoke, me and Preston did
primarily all the sales we woulddo everything because you know,
(04:40):
and I think a lot of roofingbusiness owners and roofing
companies are set up that way wekind of get scared to think
about delegating out Right,which, especially with the
majority of the market and theway they pay their salesmen, you
know the way the commissionsare broke down and where it's a
heavy percentage of theprofitability and things like
that.
And we looked at it and we likeeven looked at how suppliers
are ran supply houses and howthey they pay their outside
(05:03):
sales reps houses and how theypay their outside sales reps,
and I'm like you know what.
Those are way bigger companiesthan roofing companies but they
pay their salesman a decentsalary, right, and then they pay
them a smaller percentage butthere's bonuses and things like
that.
So we changed our structure upa little bit, but what it
allowed us to do is be able tobring in an in-house project
manager that he has paidliterally just to manage all the
(05:25):
jobs, warranties, repairs.
So communication on that frontis, after a salesman sells and
everything, that production guycan come in and make sure
everything goes through thewhole process super clean, super
smooth.
But I don't tell my sales guysthat you can just you relax
after you sell the job, becauseI think that's the biggest
mistake we make in sales too.
Right, You're very involved,you want to show that you care.
(05:48):
You weren't just trying to geta signed deal and then you don't
care about them.
We also have a full-time officemanager that does all of our
stuff that you know with theinsurance paperwork.
She helps with marketing.
I mean we really got a all-staroffice manager but we kind of
just got blessed with thoseroles.
And then our sales manager butwe kind of just got blessed with
those roles.
And then our sales team.
When we went to interview themand actually grow our sales team
(06:11):
, we made sure that they werelike-minded people.
When we look at our family, wehave three salesmen and they're
all easily $2 million salesmeneach and they're good people and
they care about the customer.
And I had a $2 million salesman.
Walk in the interview last yearand he would be a $2 million
salesman, but he does not fitour culture and I feel like we
said no to him and told him hewas nothing personal or anything
(06:33):
else.
But, man, we do things togetherafter hours, we do vacations
together as a group and we wanteverybody to feel like a legit
family, and each one of us goteach other's back.
Want everybody to feel like alegit family and we each one of
us got each other's back.
I feel like that culture againsounds sunday school answer
because you asked you, you're ona camera, right, and it sounds
pretty.
I have nothing else to showthat.
That's not the reason why we'vegrown.
(06:54):
Um, because our customers see it.
Um, we take care of everywarranty deal.
We, we create leaks too, right,and so everybody wants to talk
about the perfect stuff.
But I really think handling theproblems that we've created you
know, like when I say that, butlike we have a week or we have
whatever we, we handle ourscrew-ups and we pay for them.
We make them right.
We don't fight on that.
Um, there's always a fairnesslevel right of what's actually
(07:17):
going on siding or something incorrelation to the roof.
But, um, you got to be smart inhow you take care of your
people, because we are 100%referral-based company.
The only thing we pay for isSEO, got it.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Let's talk about that referral-based growth a little
bit, because that's, you know,that's what everyone wants right
.
Everyone wants referrals.
Of course your close rate'sgoing to be higher, but to me
it's like you know you can'tjust go out.
I mean you can, in a way, Ihave a strategy for going out
and buying more referrals in thefuture, but it's you know.
(07:55):
What year did you guys startagain?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
We started.
We've been around since 2013.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Okay, so I want people to have that context
right we're, we're, we're what?
12, 15, what what?
Yeah, 12 years in now, 12 yearsin now, right, so you?
know, let's talk about, maybe,the journey of that referral
growth, because to me, like theway I look at it and you could,
you, could, you know, kind ofgive me your thoughts too is the
(08:24):
.
The way I look at it and youcould kind of give me your
thoughts too, is the way I lookat it from a referral
perspective is you have to dogood business for someone for
them to refer you.
Or from more of a strategicreferral relationship with
someone who has your customermaybe an insurance agent or a
realtor or something like that.
You're doing a good job fortheir customers, so they refer
(08:48):
you more.
So I see two places there.
Are you guys focused on one orboth?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, and I think there's three for us, because
you have an insurance agent thatI look at and how you have to
kind of what you're selling tothem and how you're going to get
referrals from them.
You have real estate agentsthat are a huge part of it,
especially through the housingmarket and the craze it was 2020
and then up to 2023, 2024, youknow Um and then um, and then
(09:14):
you have your customer.
You have your customer referraland I actually go through all
of my sales training and I tellmy guys I'm like you're going,
you're selling to threedifferent parties and this is
what they're looking for, causeat the end of the day, we're not
just selling a roof but we'reselling a filling right.
We gotta, we gotta make themfeel good and make them raving
fans and and and insuranceagents looking at are you going
to file faulty claims justbecause you got on the roof, or
(09:39):
are you going to file a claim sowe've got to give getting a
roof paid for?
Real estate agents.
They care about closing, so wegot to sell them that we're
going to make closing whateverthat looks like, and that
doesn't always mean we'regetting a roof out of it.
We might have to do a repairand game plan, make sure they
can get insurance on the home,and then we game plan for the
next storm or game plan for theright time financially.
And then a homeowner obviouslyroofing is not the most exciting
(10:03):
thing to improve on your homebecause you're sitting in a
recliner, you can't see what youpaid for, right.
But we've got to make sure thatthey feel different than what
they've had in the past and havea good product and they are
trusting in us that we'reputting on a good product and
repping the shingle andeverything else, so they want to
know that they're handled bythe insurance claim and
(10:23):
everything.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I love that For people listening from a
marketing perspective, we callthat an avatar, a persona, right
?
So it's your buyer avatar, yourpersona, your customer avatar,
and so your customer avatar asan insurance agent.
We want to understand whattheir goals are, what their pain
points are.
Their pain point is, you know,a contractor filing a claim
(10:49):
that's now they have to dealwith the customer and their
customer is upset with thembecause they're fighting over
this claim and you know, andyou're like man that was, you
know that was a long shot onthat one.
So that type of pain point.
Their pain point may be thatthey're getting that they need
more customers, right?
(11:09):
That's another pain point thatyou can solve.
So maybe you could potentiallybring I don't know if you do
this or not, but you couldpotentially bring business their
way in some cases Realtors.
I love how you found their painpoint and I got to get this
thing closed.
They don't get paychecks unlessthat thing closes, like the
real estate industry, you know,is a tough one in that regard.
(11:32):
If you're a real estate agent,like you know, there's a lot of
moving parts that happen betweenthe time you get a buyer to
want to go and find a house andthen that thing actually going
through, they're qualifying forthe mortgage, there's the
inspections, there's all thestuff that's going on.
I love that thought process.
And then the homeowner yeah,understanding, I love your
(11:56):
understanding that no one wantsto buy a roof.
Yeah, right, like.
So what are the?
What are the things that youcan do?
What are the pain points?
What are the benefits that youcan provide that homeowner that
would make them say, man, thisis the right company to choose?
Let me tell my friends andfamily about this.
Let me say blacksmith roofinganytime a roofing conversation
(12:18):
arises.
Right, I really like that.
What other you know, as you'vegrown over the years and
developed a sales team and Ithink I'd love to go into sales
team development next but a lotof times salespeople are lazy
Sure, don't, and I mean lazy inthe way that they maybe
(12:47):
sometimes they're just waitingfor the next lead that you give
them, versus them generatingadditional business from what
they have in front of them.
So the best ones are definitelythe ones that generate the
business that's in front of them.
How do you ensure that they areproperly asking for referrals
and developing relationshipswhere you know that they're
(13:09):
going to gain an advantage ingenerating business in the
future.
Sure.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
You know, we had to look at that and dive into it a
little bit because, yeah, weagree, you know, handouts make
lazy people.
You know, I read that somewhereand I was like, oh man, that is
so true because we see that alot, right.
I read that somewhere and I waslike, oh man, that is so true
because we see that a lot right.
But the other side of it is, Ilooked at it and I was like,
okay, your job in sales is tosale, and in roofing, salesmen
(13:39):
are known to be the projectmanager, the insurance
specialist, the adjuster fighter, the inspector, the payment
collector, know all those things.
And my salesmen still collectpayment, do walkthroughs, they
still meet the adjusters.
But if we get a denial, I'vegot a team it includes myself
where if we do have to do are-inspection on it, we help
them do that.
Um, and so we're like, okay,there's still really good income
(14:01):
and my sales guys make greatmoney.
Everybody knows that roofingsales is.
You can be successful in it ifyou're not lazy, right.
But we looked at it a differentway and it's like, why is
everybody?
Why is there such a highturnover rate?
And so I feel like the highturnover rate is because we have
them doing so many things and Icame from that and then,
whenever I was roofing too, Idid everything, which is fine.
(14:22):
The payout is supposed tojustify that right.
That's why the commission ratepercentages are so high.
But at the end of the day, ifyou spend the money on your
project manager, your officemanager and you build these
systems and actually havedifferent departments within
your company, your sales guyscan focus on selling jobs.
And so when they're focused onselling jobs and they're not
(14:43):
stressed about all thesereinspections, all these other
things now they're still a partof it.
They still meet the adjuster.
But if we're doing the paperworkand the photo documentation
because we actually hired aninspector, we have inspectors
that go and inspect the roof.
They're not supposed to give adiagnosis of the roof to the
homeowner.
They're not supposed to sayit's bad or good.
And then, when it gets sent tomy salesman, I'm reviewing every
single customer with them tomake sure we should file a claim
(15:06):
or not, which also is a littleinsurance for me to make sure
that they're not filing bogusclaims.
Ok, which that all leads up to.
How do I keep them from beinglazy and I get them involved in
getting leads and carrying on.
And the big thing is is I madethem all like even at the end of
this year they gave me thegoals on what they want to sell
and I was like the biggest thingwe haven't talked about is how
(15:26):
are we going to get there?
And you're going to know thisterminology better than me, so I
might botch this, but like Ihad read about like vertical
marketing or vertical networking, and I was like what are your
guys' hobbies?
Go join those things.
I got a guy that loves to golf.
I was like go down, there's agolf course down here that has a
private membership for youngguys.
There's only ninety, ninedollars a month.
I was like you can afford thatto network with guys there and
(15:47):
you're already doing somethingyou love.
So even for a big guy like me,I still play in a men's
basketball league.
I got a lot of leads from doingthat and that was free.
I got a guy that has a Bronco,so he's going to join a Bronco
group, and then I've got anotherguy that he just likes chamber
events and stuff like that.
There's something wrong withhim, but no he actually likes
that kind of marketing stuff.
He's doing that and he's doing agreat job with it.
(16:09):
And so I was like, once youpick your hobbies, now it
doesn't feel like door knocking,it doesn't feel like, how am I
going to feed my family?
They're already doing somethingthey enjoy and those people
because I think a lot of guyswill agree with it they're
watching.
This is, when we say roofer,people want to kill the
conversation immediately.
(16:29):
I can be at a networking eventand having a great time and
they're like what are you doing?
I'm almost like, oh, I justwant to tell them I'm in
construction, cause if I sayroofer, there's a chance.
This, uh, this conversation'sover, um, but you know, whenever
they're doing something, thatand so that really has changed
it my guys pretty much just workoff the leads we have, which is
(16:49):
really cool.
The winter time, you know,that's when I was like this is
where the hobbies are going tocome into play and so and that's
that really has kept it andit's worked and so far it's been
great.
And so I think this month evenit's a slow month, you know,
typically in the roofingindustry, I think we're going to
close about 500, 600 000 andthat's a that I mean, that's the
(17:12):
best probably march we've had.
So that's.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
That's a gem for everyone.
I think you just coined a newone, steven.
Okay, hobby based, like, likethat's a it's.
You know you're around people,that that you know that enjoy
the same things that you do,which invokes conversation,
which you know.
You get to know each other andlike each other even more
(17:39):
because of that.
Yeah, so are you like the?
You're the the?
Are you just suiting them up inblacksmith golf gear and just
sending a blacksmith roofinggolf bag a?
blacksmith roofing golf hat.
(17:59):
Let's take this to the nextlevel.
I love this hobby-basedmarketing, right?
If you're, if you're, uh, iffishing is your hobby, man,
let's wrap the boat you knowwhat I mean let's get that lund
wrapped up.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
You know like once we get proof of their hobby and
how they're handling it.
Yes, uh, I'm very much.
I'm making him pay for his golfmembership because I want him
to have that investment.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, you know.
And then know, obviously theyhave hats, they have shirts, you
know, and stuff like that.
And you kind of gave me an idea.
I kind of want a blacksmith bagnow because I have a golf
(18:34):
membership too, but you know,and so but yeah, I mean I think
all that comes in, but you don'twant to look like it's like
almost almost you don't want togo to church to get a profit.
But, hey, they eventually knowwhat I am right and so I'm a
roofer.
But, you know, whenever, uh,when it comes to those, because
I want it to be, hey, I'm steven, and this is what kind of man I
(18:56):
am, the kind of guy I am, whatI'm looking for, oh, I do
roofing too, you know.
And then they automatically,you know, start referring you
that way.
And then they automatically,you know, start referring you
that way.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And then for people that do enjoy that networking at
the chamber and that type ofstuff B&I groups, that thing,
like.
I think the lesson in it too isfind your thing, yeah Right,
find your thing.
You know, that's and that's's Ilike, I like to.
I like reducing friction, yeah,right.
(19:28):
And so if you are telling them,if you're telling the guy that
enjoys golfing and hates bnigroups to go join a bni group,
right, there's friction there.
He, he may be better off at the19th hole.
You know what I mean.
Having conversations withpeople right like um, about you
know, about how how great hegolfed that day or not right
(19:50):
like that's the you know yeah,um, I think that's fabulous.
That's that.
Those are fantastic things.
I talk to contractors every daythat feel stuck, not because
they're not hard, but becausethey're missing the structure to
growth without chaos or theirculture's falling apart, because
(20:10):
their team's unclear, unalignedor just burned out and when
change hits, they're reactinginstead of leading because time
and priorities aren't undertheir control.
Day 41 Thrive helps to fix thatwith proven strategies for
growth, culture and leadershipthat actually work, Ready to
(20:31):
thrive beyond the storm.
Visit the link in thedescription or visit the Roofing
Success Podcast website on thesponsors page to start your
journey today.
So now, as you built it up,moved away from being the
salespeople in your business youand your partner just being the
salespeople you had to developa different skill set.
(20:55):
Uh, you know, I think thatbuilding a sales team, managing
a sales team, is a differentskillset.
What?
How have you structured yourhiring, your training?
Um, you know, getting the teamset up for success?
Sure.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
That was the hardest part.
Um, I always joke that I was asalesman and then woke up a
business owner one day, Right.
And so, you know, I startedroofing when I was 21 and I did.
I door knocked for a couple ofyears and then I had an
insurance agent refer me afterone storm and I was getting so
like three or four leads a dayand I was like I'll never door
knock a day in my life again.
(21:30):
Right and so, and then, as youown a company and you're still a
salesman and you're doing allthe things, now I have a full
sales team.
I had to find a way to becomfortable too, right, Like I
didn't want to just be likethese are my war stories and
this is what I did and this ishow you need to do it, because
that's not going to work.
I mean, obviously it definitelygives us pieces to the puzzle
to find a successful way forthem to sell.
(21:51):
So for me on this, because I domost of the sales management, I
had to find a way for me tostill be plugged in with the
customer and I'm not per se totheir face, but, like I said,
I'm reviewing the photos with mysales guys.
So right now I think we have250 customers in our queue.
I have looked at all 250customers.
Just like that guy I interviewed, he's like oh yeah, you want to
(22:12):
be, hire these guys so you canbe a business owner, so you can
be out.
I'm like that.
Just no, I'm still young.
Like no, that's not going tohappen.
And so I was like, but how do Ikeep that uh, authenticness,
the authentic feel of howblacksmith has been ran this
whole time and how I can trainmy guys, is by like okay, I sat
them in here.
I said this is how I always didmy communication, my followup.
(22:33):
I would bet money I'm the bestin the industry and you know,
all salesmen have to have thatconfidence about something.
But I feel like my sales camefrom my follow-up and my
communication.
So I showed them my processes,um, and I had to find a way to
do it without micromanaging them.
That was probably the hardestthing for me to do um and so,
and we failed in the past yearsbecause I tried to be that way,
(22:56):
uh, and then I had to find a wayto let them kind of learn on
their own.
But then, like I do have, I'veset up slideshows, I'm working
on some third party things to beable to bring them in and show
them, like sales tips and allthat.
I have a sales training everyThursday with the guys, which
just gives us kind of a bond.
Plus, I always have a goodtopic and we go over insurance
(23:16):
scopes and how, just to readthose.
I go over game planning withthe three different customers
that you have, and so we look atdifferent things that way, and
so they do go around with theinspector and they see what we
need to find.
But we are basically trying tocarbon copy our model rather
than me trying to carbon copymyself, if that makes sense.
So we had to build a system andwe had to play with that for a
(23:40):
while before we felt comfortable.
We actually stripped all salesguys off about a year and a half
ago and we're like we want tobuild processes and systems,
which I owe everything to mybusiness partner Preston on that
.
He's ex-military Plus he was aassistant VP of that window
company, so like he knew thatstructure.
I'm sales and marketing, I'mjust a goofy, goofy guy and so,
like, with him bringing thatstructure, I was like you know,
(24:01):
it's really brilliant, and so wedid that and after we learned
ourselves and we learned what wewanted Blacksmith to be, it was
easy to plug people into theroles that we needed, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Looking back at building out those processes and
kind of what it, what theimpact that it had on the
salespeople in developing it outthat way, what would you say?
The 80-20 on that was Like whatwas the you know?
Like if you had to like, nowthat you've gone through it like
(24:32):
man, if these were the mostimportant things we did in terms
of process and structure,develop you know, the, the
systems and processes.
That that was we've seen thebiggest impact around that yeah,
the inspector was huge.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
So, having the guy that and what I what it overall,
not to go through every step,but was giving the sales guys
tools and a team rather thanmaking the sales guys do
everything.
So we, we got the austin's, ourproject manager.
We got the austin, we had thevictoria for the office
management and we said what dowe want them doing?
That's going to take the loadoff the, the salesman.
(25:11):
But then what?
And then I had to correlate howare the sales?
I'm going to make their jobseasy too for the, for the
production manager, officemanager, because they have to be
on their game with how theynotify things and put things in
our system.
But we used AccuLynx to the max.
We have a lot of things set upin AccuLynx to help them with
templates and estimates andstuff.
That way, the inspector, whatit did is, and a lot of roofing
(25:34):
sales guys.
Whenever they see this and gothrough it, they know exactly
what I'm talking about.
If you're a busy sales guy,you're seeing eight, 10 plus
inspections a day.
And then you got to find timeto do the report.
You got to find time to makethe phone call.
You got to find time to filethe claim.
You got to find time to do allthat, as the storm's happening,
you're getting more calls thenext day, next day, so you have
a lot of like deadfall that willcome from that, where there's a
(25:57):
lot of people that just getmissed and they'll get taken
care of.
And the last two major storms wehad me and Preston were going
Holy cow, we had not a fishingstory, we really did increase
like four or 500 customerswithin three to four days just
from them calling our officeline, the first one, we had to
turn the phones off because wedidn't know how to handle that,
and so we were like, okay, well,that part's great, but how do
(26:18):
we capture everybody?
And the inspector thing made itto where his job is literally
to go take photos 60 to 100,maybe more and upload it in
Acculinks, and then my salesguys have time to build a report
off that.
So now their whole day again isselling, they're looking at the
reports, they're buildingreports, they're making the
phone calls, making a decisionso they can file that claim the
same day.
(26:38):
And so then on the back end theproduction manager has that
stuff.
And I'm giving you a longwinded answer of it all, but I
think it was.
How do we make a team literallyhelp each other and how do I
focus on making my salesman justbe salesman?
Speaker 1 (26:53):
So so what I'm hearing this is for people
listening.
What I'm hearing is you wantedto give your.
You wanted to increase the timethat your salespeople were
selling and decrease the timethat they were doing non revenue
generating activities.
There you go, and so so whatyou did is you looked at their,
(27:17):
at their job duties, and yousaid, man, this, this one here
building out that report ordoing.
You know, building out aproposal or an estimate like
that takes a lot of time.
Yeah, okay, let's get that offof their plate, let's take right
.
And so you.
Is that what I'm hearing?
So, that may be a great way forpeople to to, to approach it
(27:41):
Right.
It is is okay, what's thewhat's the thing that's taking
the most amount of time?
Yeah, and then let's, let'slook, let's focus it on that,
let's make that more efficientfor them.
Or or have another team member.
It's a who or a how right, like, so we can, how, how we can
make this more efficient, or whowe can add to the team that can
(28:03):
take that off of their plate.
That you know.
That that really is.
You know, this is what I talkabout.
I love, I love the.
I love business in theiterations that you continuously
make right, like you know phaseone, yet you go sell yourself.
Right Phase two you got to hiresome people and train them and
(28:24):
pass that knowledge on.
Phase three is how do we makethem more efficient in their
process?
How do we?
give them their time so thatthey can be $2 million a year
reps versus, you know,struggling to hit a million
because they're doing all ofthese other things.
Yeah, what other things come tomind, as you know that that
(28:44):
that were, you know, some of themost impactful things around
that.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
You know and you're asking for, like how the
salesman became successful orlike training them.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
How you've looked at these processes, how you've
developed those efficiencies,and maybe you've developed the
efficiencies in your productionteam too.
Maybe you've developed likewhat other places have you have
you done this?
Or or has it only been with thesales team?
Maybe that's it.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah.
So we started with theproduction guy and we're like
what do we need for that to runsmooth?
Then we looked at our officemanager and we're like what do
we need that to run smooth?
And we're talking aboutcommunication, photo
documentation.
And then like at what part inAcculinks do they get tagged,
what duties do they have inAcculinks on when they move the
(29:30):
timeline or like from lead toprospect or approved to
completed?
And then like what you know,we're obviously paying you guys
a salary.
What are you going to do withyour salary?
So you know're obviously payingyou guys a salary.
What are you going to do withyour salary?
So you know, is it job costing?
Are you telling me where I'mnegative on from my estimate and
my sales guys estimate?
I've got it to where myproduction manager he reviews
(29:51):
labor sold versus what laborcame back to on the ticket
because maybe there's addedstuff.
He looks at labor or, excuse me, material sold in acculink
versus what it actually came by,and I'll tell you we were
bleeding on the back end and Ithink a lot of guys were and I
think a lot of it was becausedid we really have to order
three more uh packages ofridgement or you know a ridge?
(30:13):
we might have only needed two.
What happened to that thirdpackage?
Okay, you know, and so like heeven tightened that way and it
sounds like a penny pinch, butwe didn't, and it just made the
process flow.
The crew loved it.
They knew there was a structurethere too, so it really
benefited on those.
And once we knew what we wantedthem to do, then we knew what we
could strip from ourselves guys, because me and Preston were
doing everything.
(30:33):
So we had to view it from oursides like what is taking the
most time?
And we did view it this waywhat's going to put them back
with their family at night?
And so the only thing thattakes the most time for my sales
guy that we can't get away fromis maybe a really long adjuster
appointment or a late nightcontract signing, because hours
worked, stuff like that, and wedon't tell them they have to go
home.
(30:53):
I mean, if they want to makelate night or weekends their
thing, I feel like salesmen.
They got to adapt to theirschedule and what they like and
where they perform the best.
But I hope that kind of answersyour question.
But we do, without making it along deal.
Is we have a system for everyposition, including myself and
my business partner self in thecompany, each department?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, that answers it , but it also provides some
clarification.
I think that this is somethinggood to think about after
hearing it from you is that youworked on the production side
first.
The office side first createdefficiencies there first, so
that when you createdefficiencies in the sales
process, there was capacity, andit sounds like there could have
(31:38):
been capacity issues when youhad that big storm and you had
to turn the phones off.
But right, yeah, yeah, but, butit but, but it's the you know
through the production process.
How, what effects did that have?
Let's talk about that a littlebit.
I think that's an interestingone and maybe you have the
answer.
Maybe you don't, but did youmeasure your production capacity
(32:01):
, how many roofs you could builda week or a month or whatever
to after you optimize thatproduction role?
What?
What did that capacity increaseto?
Did you guys measure any ofthat?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yeah, it made it more profitable, rather than rather
than because we were doing two,three roofs a day.
I mean, we still do, and in thewintertime we're doing four or
five a week if the weather willlet us, which I feel like is a
very good capacity.
But it made us more profitable.
It made you kind of stopscratching your head and going
like, why wasn't the numbers thesame as what we sold it?
(32:37):
And I'll tell you where itfixed us the most it fixed our
estimate template.
So if it fixed all of our wrongestimating like we might've
been wrong on how many bundleswe really needed per thing,
linear foot, what's true, youknow.
So that that is what it made usmore profitable, we had a lot
less loss is what I should say.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
That's a great feedback loop that you created,
right, like you created thatfeedback loop of what, what's
happening and then, like yousaid, now you can make
adjustments on the estimatingside so that you're more
accurate, as you, as you'remaking a, making those making
bid or doing bids and things andestimates and yeah, that's
(33:18):
awesome, yeah, and things andestimates and um, yeah, that's
awesome, um, okay.
So another thing I want to chatwith you about, because it
sounds like I mean, you've builtup, you've built out the team.
Yeah, um, you know what?
What lessons did you learnabout getting the right people?
Speaker 2 (33:36):
it just happened how we got our production guy.
So it really was what are theirfamily values?
So you have to kind of look attheir job histories in the past
and then you kind of also justlike what the kind of people and
it's kind of like our customerswe got referred to, the people
we got.
So Victoria and I that's myoffice manager we went to church
(34:03):
together.
We knew each other as friendsand everything for a long time
because my wife was on staffthere, so got to know her.
I already knew she was a hardworker.
Anything I showed her at thebeginning.
I only had to show her one timebecause she was phenomenal at
writing everything down and thenshe already has a background in
marketing.
So like her brain already worksa way.
You wanted austin, our ourproduction manager.
He was our HVAC guy.
He owned his own HVAC companyfor over 20 years.
He was already.
(34:24):
And that's why I tell all mysales guys too it's like you're
not going to be the reason foryour success.
It's going to be therelationships that you build.
Everybody we know and that wemeet are who got us where we are
.
We knew somebody or somethingand got invited to that right
and so, like Austin calls me andsays, hey, I'm just not going
to be a HVAC guy anymore, I wasable to sell my company and I'm
(34:44):
just going to kind of free rolland I was like I would love to
have your type of person here.
Have you ever thought aboutthis?
Well, so he took it.
So we already had that culturebuilt, that was family and it
was already familiar.
Um, my first sales guy, thatdid really good.
He's young.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I normally don't do really young, but he did an
internship with us.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
I met him at church.
He did an internship for us.
We hunt together and afterwardswe're like, man, you have a
background in sales that youcould do really well and his
whole family was in that.
So we brought him on.
My other sales guy crazy enough, we had done a chimney for a
gentleman that is TikTok, famoushere locally, really well-known
influencer, and his chimney wasleaking but the roofing
(35:21):
companies kept charging him toreplace the shingles around his
chimney.
So when we did his chimney hegot us like 500 new followers
overnight, did all this stuff.
The only way is when we put outthat we were hiring Dylan.
He is phenomenal and has a bigbackground in marketing and in
sales and he came because he hadfollowed us from the chimney
fix and he has a family, reallygood family dynamic.
(35:44):
And then our other guy isPreston's brother.
So our culture is very, reallywell known and, like I said it,
they don't.
My guys don't come across assalesmen.
I feel like we're abnormal inthat part, cause we me and
Preston don't care if you'relike a good upselling salesman.
I know that sounds socontradictory to sales and I
understand what I'm saying, butI, but people are comfortable
(36:07):
and that's what we again.
We sell that feeling and that'swhy I feel like our.
Just last year our averagecontract amount was 10, 11,000.
It always has on our referralbase.
Now our average contract amounthas been 25 to 30,000.
And that's just because priceswent up.
But we have a differentclientele.
We're doing a ton of designershingles now and we didn't
advertise for that.
So there is some things I can'tanswer.
(36:29):
It just kind of happened and wefeel blessed for that and you
feel dumb not being able to haveall the metrics for it.
But I really do think havingthat family dynamic if I had a
flat tire tonight, I knowanybody on my team is going to
come help me yeah, that's prettycool.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And it is in the network that you have right,
like there's, there's a lot tothat and there's a lot of the
relationships that you buildover the years.
You know if someone is.
You know everyone, everyonesees the end result in a lot of
these things, but they don't seethe starting point Right, and
so that's what it makes me thinkof, like a lot of people's
(37:07):
journeys are different.
What you know, I know peoplethat were you know beacon.
You know regional managers thatstarted a roofing company that
(37:29):
had a lot of connections andknew everyone in the market and
knew everyone.
You know how to there.
You know then there's there,there's, you know people that I
know a guy that worked atFacebook and then bought a
roofing company.
Like he has a whole differentlearning curve.
He has a whole you know thenetwork.
He, you know he calls some ofhis tech friends, but are they
going to be able to solve hisroom?
Or, you know, want to sell room?
They might, you never know, um,you know they.
Like there's all thesedifferent places to start, but
that network that you build overtime and then and then also,
(37:56):
what I heard you was that you'relike, oh, you have a like I.
From my interactions with you,I learned what kind of skillset
you have.
Through our conversations overthe years, you'd be perfect for
this role in our company.
Is that something you'reinterested in?
Right, so you're, you know likeyou're you're, you're getting
to know people.
It's the relationships thatyou've created.
How many of your other teammembers have come from other
(38:19):
team member referrals Like doyou have kind of like a family
tree almost going on, like yeah,not yet.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
But I, you know my guys, we had such a good year
and then the winner was thefirst unknown with this big of a
sales team and it's only threebut that's big.
I feel like you know and youknow it'll grow.
But I'm like I want to see howthe winner goes and that's where
me and Preston were like I waslike we do not take any more
sales leads out like this winter.
I want my guys taken care ofand I don't.
I don't believe in thestarvation to make them go get
(38:50):
all the leads themselves and Ithink that's like I said.
I've made them build their ownhobby list and things that way.
So we haven't grown from thoseyet.
I have a feeling that is wherewe're going to get our next
salesman now.
It's just from that family treeof connections.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yeah, and the other side of it that I forgot about
is the social media aspect.
Yeah, boy, you don't know who'swatching.
No, that's right, you don'tknow who's watching.
You got to be putting thatcontent out.
There being engaging.
You know you had someone thathad a big following.
They posted your stuff therebeing engaging.
You know you had someone thathad a big following, they posted
your stuff.
And you know, all of a sudden,this stuff snowballs, they don't
think for one second that repsin your area or or people who
(39:31):
may become good sales reps foryou, aren't watching.
You, that's right, and and andand and, making a determination
if you're a company that theywould like to work for or not,
through the content that you'reproducing.
You know, in the marketplace,are you guys doing much social
media content?
I know you're focused on theSEO stuff, the relationships
(39:53):
face-to-face, morebelly-to-belly relationships.
Are you doing any social mediastuff too?
We do.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
We post, probably weekly and it's pictures and
with a good little blimp of youknow like what we're doing, what
we're going on.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
We'll give you a little game plan on that.
We'll get you leveled up onthat.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
We do yeah, and it'd be good, and it's because me and
Preston haven't spent time, youknow, because Victoria is like,
yeah, let's go, I want to dosome more stuff.
You know, we do like the shinglerep or, excuse me, the shingle
manufacturer that we do a lot ofwork with.
We were able to.
They share a lot of our stuff,so you get that exposure as well
.
But as far as anything else,we're definitely not as hot as
(40:32):
we were when we first got outand trying to get our name out
there you know we're doingvideos and stuff and we need to
revamp that.
We talked about that we do havebillboards rolling out this
month.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
You know, now it becomes the challenge of you
doing it versus your team doingit too, because those sales reps
, as they're out at the golfcourse and, as you know, when
you're down there playingbasketball and the other guys
down at the chamber group like,there's opportunities for them
to be creating content andadding it to the Blacksmith
(41:00):
brand, right, and then that is adirect indicator of who you
guys are as people creatingcontent and adding it to the
blacksmith brand Right, and thenthat show that that is a direct
indicator of who you guys areas people, right, that becomes a
direct indicator of that.
So real, small tweaks, man, it'sall just real small tweaks you
gotta you know along the way.
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(41:25):
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(41:48):
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(42:15):
What has been the driving forcebehind?
I guess the intentionalcreation of your team culture,
because it sounds like, andmaybe did it start off as being
intentional, and then you wereall of a sudden you're like oh
wait, we have a culture here.
Let's focus on that and growingit.
Which was it?
Speaker 2 (42:31):
So yeah.
So I think we started thecompany like a lot of guys
whenever you think, growing upbusiness owner, what's going to
drive money?
What's going to drive sales?
How do we get it?
How do we go?
And then me and Prestston, likeI said when we stripped
everything apart, and we're like, man, this is exhausting, like
how are we going to revamp thisand want to make us stay in this
industry, make us want to stayin this business, and it was
looking at it going.
(42:51):
What do we hate about it andwhy so?
Like, how can we fix that?
Is it because we're spendingtoo much time with all the steps
I told you about?
But we really did look at it as, like we're looking for people
that, um, we want to be able tomake sure that we can provide a
good home life for them as faras, like, we want them to spend
family time together.
We want them.
You know one guy's not marriedor anything, but like we want
(43:13):
him to still have a life,because I think a lot of guys
get burned out in this industryand they don't feel like they
have a life and they'll leave orthey'll think they need to
start their own roofing company.
So we did very much have it towhere, if I guys are sick or
like Austin being on theproduction side, not a sales guy
um, for easy people, easier tosee, to resonate it's like his
family went through a big thingwhere they were sick last year
and it's like we've got yourback.
(43:35):
What do you need?
Where's the food?
It wasn't like you need to bein the office Cause he was
handling his stuff remote and sowe have a little bit of a
relaxed atmosphere there.
That naturally builds that.
But it is spending timetogether.
I think that naturally youattract the people that you're
kind of like Right, and so wespend time with them.
So kind of answering yourquestion.
We started off like whatbusiness you feel like you're
(43:57):
told it should be and werealized if we give people a
more career style feel here, itwon't feel like you're working
for a roofing company.
You need to start your own, youknow yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
So there's always that right Training your
competition, right, I don't knowman, I believe like, if you can
, if you not, everyone's goingto work for you forever, sure,
um, and if you, if you reallyunderstand that and you, you
pour into people and you'rehappy with with what, what their
success can be, um, I wastalking to uh to to someone down
(44:32):
in Florida yesterday.
Uh, they have a good size, goodsize roofing company down there
and I and they're um, and I waslike hey, do you know these
guys in your area?
You know these guys in yourarea?
You know these guys in yourarea?
And he was like no, Right, andit's a testament to the
(44:53):
abundance that is out there inthis industry.
Right, like you know, you maycompete with people on some, you
know, at times, or you know be,you know be competing or trying
to sell the same person, butthere is so much business in the
Tulsa Broken Arrow area, right,just the Broken Arrow area,
(45:16):
right, it's, you know.
I think pouring into people andhelping them be better people
and develop their skill set ismore important than cautiously
being cautious about what theypotentially might do in the
future, if, when something mighthappen.
Yeah, that's right, Right.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
What are some of the things that you do as a team,
that that that has built some,that's built some camaraderie
around the office.
Yeah, so we will do the IREevery other year.
So we've made it anon-negotiable that like, maybe
it's not realistic to go everyyear, but we'll go every other
year and we pay for their waythere year, but we'll go every
other year and we pay for theirway there and the whole team
comes so that we can do whatevertogether while we're there and
we have that travel time, allthat.
So we're together.
On that we do.
(46:10):
I build in monthly goals andbonus structures.
So, like, a lot of things thatwe learned is that salesmen like
money Don't get me wrong,anybody likes bonus money but
there's something more enticingwhen you give them something
that's more tangible.
That, well, money's tangible,but like it, but it has more
weight to it.
(46:30):
So like, like, for instance,this month, if they sell 125,
which looks like they're goingto beat that, there's a nice
golf course about an hour away.
Everybody likes to play golf.
So we're like, hey, everybody'sgoing to go, we're going to stay
overnight, we're gonna play thenice golf course and then the
top guy that sold the most andthere might be a special gift
for him and it I don't know.
It might be a set of golf clubs, it might be this or whatever.
(46:52):
But like so that X, that topsales guy, is trying.
So everybody's trying to be thetop guy.
But as a team, if we hit thesenumbers and we take the sales
manager and we take the officemanager and the inspector, we go
and so we spend time with them.
Our office manager just boughta home.
We're like when are we doing ahousewarming party, you know?
And so it really is like, howare we going to be there for
(47:14):
each other?
So we just spend time with themand it's built that kind of
family culture that way.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
There's a there's something about the things that
are not money.
And here's a story for you,stephen.
I have 10-year-old twin boys,james and Connor.
James likes to sell things andso a couple of weekends ago he
decided he was going to makesome drawings and go out and
(47:44):
sell them on a stand in front ofour house.
I said, james, it's a littlechilly today.
We live in Minnesota, right?
So wintertime, you know, andit's a little chilly today.
Maybe you want to just go doorto door with these instead.
He's like, oh, great idea, I'llgo to my customer, right?
(48:04):
So James is going door to doorselling his artwork around our
neighborhood and someone didn'thave cash so they gave him
cookies, like a package ofcookies, and at dinner last
night we were talking about itand he told his brother it.
That was the best thing he gotfrom the whole experience.
(48:26):
The kid went out and sold like$40 worth of drawings around the
neighborhood, but the cookieswere better to him and I was
like, james, you know you couldgo buy cookies with the money.
And he's like, yeah, but I gotcookies Like it.
(48:46):
It's just like, like the thingsometimes, those little things,
right, it's, it's, it doesn'thave to be money.
Every time there's an emotionthat gets evoked with, with with
a, with a gift or a orsomething like that.
What other things have youworked on?
What other things have been onyour mind?
What are some of the otherthings that have helped you guys
(49:08):
grow?
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah.
So we've always tried to be astep ahead on like what we see
down the pipeline of howinsurance companies are going to
change, how they, you know, paythings, and so obviously I've
got a lot of relationships inthe industry on the insurance
side, which a lot of roofers do,right, um, but again I treat
them like friends and family.
Uh, if they switch out at likethere's a there's, I think, four
(49:31):
or five adjusters that left, um, the industry, uh, this last
year and I've got their personalcell phones, I still talk to
them.
So you try to.
It's the same culture all theway through.
It makes my life a lot easierif it's the same on everything.
But so obviously insurance ischanging a lot and we kind of
spoke the other day when you andI were talking and it's like,
okay, how are we going todevelop the right thing that's
(49:54):
going to keep us the same samelevel of busyness if we go
straight retail when that daycomes, if we feel I mean, I
don't know, I feel like I got alittle hunch that with actual
cash values becoming so popularand higher deductibles and
exclusions and stuff, that wehave to be on top of that, so
that's the new realm of whatwe're learning.
(50:14):
Obviously, financing is the easyanswer, but it's like okay if
we go off of what we saidearlier and we're selling
fillings more than we're sellingshingles, because I feel like
that's what people's reallybuying our roofs off of, because
, at the end of the day,insurance is paying for the
majority of the roofs out there.
So they're kind of going, youknow, there's not a whole lot of
financial burden in that.
So how are we going to makethem, in a way, fall in love
(50:36):
with the product that theybought?
So we are looking at foldersand marketing ways and things
that leave again tangible,Because we can sell a roof
without ever showing them ashingle sample.
That's right, you know, and soit's like okay how do?
we make them engage and be likeokay, we're going to replace our
roof because it's time,maintenance-wise and not
(50:59):
storm-related-wise.
So we are currently working onthe marketing ways of like how
are we going to make them feellike they're getting a kitchen
remodel, you know?
Speaker 1 (51:09):
it's a challenge in storm restoration markets that
you know like and I know we kindof opened it was was how do you
you know how you, how you kindof be a retail company in a
storm market?
Well, what you're, what you'redoing, is you're, you're, you're
getting people to know you.
It's not the door to door way,right, it's not the.
We're only chasing the nextstorm and you know it's, it's
(51:30):
the relationships that you'rebuilding.
But people in storm restorationmarkets, a lot of them know,
right, they know well, a lot ofthem know right, they know well,
I'll just wait for the next one, right, and so.
But I think, highlighting thepain points, what you guys are
thinking about I love the linethat you're thinking, you know,
(51:52):
highlighting the pain points of,you know, the ACV, highlighting
the pain points of higherdeductibles, highlighting those
pain points, deductibles, yeah,highlighting those pain points
Once the homeowner realizes thatthey can't wait for the next
storm, right, right, you know,if, if I were, you know if I
were waiting for the next stormand then it just got to a point
(52:14):
where I couldn't anymore, yougot to do it, and then, and and
and and, having the options fromthe financing perspectives and
things like that, and thenhaving the options from the
financing perspectives andthings like that definitely will
help.
Yeah Well, this has beenawesome, man.
(52:37):
What are your kind of the?
The final piece of advice forsomeone that you know that wants
to that that that that'sstruggling to do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
Yeah, you, you have to jump out on the faith that
you can't do it alone.
Um, there's an African sayingthat I read in a book one time.
That's like, if you want to gofast, go alone, but if you want
to go far, go together.
And I don't know, it's justreally on my heart for to say
that, like if you're a businessowner or if you're a guy
starting out, or it doesn't haveto be in roofing at all, but I
really think you have to beabnormal.
We know what every roofingcompany, every roofer that's in
(53:16):
it, we know how they're set up,we know how the majority of them
are running things.
And I really think if you lookat your family or like what you
want in life and the things thatyou want, I think you have to
go ahead and make the jump andgo.
You can't afford not to affordthe help.
So, um, like, you have to lookat how do I structure this
(53:37):
company to get, keep me sane, tokeep accountability and also to
be able to keep retention.
I don't want my guys to feellike they can start their own,
Not because I want them aroundand I think their competition
they're going to beat me.
That's not it.
I think I've made my footprint.
We're fine.
But I love the guys that I havehere.
I don't want them to leave.
(53:57):
So if you can build that culturefor yourself, if you can go
ahead and just step out andstart looking at those processes
and go, what is taking up mostof my time and my sales guy's
time?
And how am I going to make that?
Well, the sales will justfollow because, again, you've
opened up time for them to justgo sell.
Don't worry about all the otherstuff, and I promise you you'll
(54:19):
still make good money as abusiness owner.
Every business, every otherbusiness, is set up that way.
Why is roofing set up different?
And that's what we askedourselves.
And so I feel like if you'lljust go ahead and step out on a
little bit of faith and pull thetrigger on that stuff, you'll
have a lot better living life.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
Awesome man.
Thanks for your time today.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Thanks, brother.
Thank you for tuning into theRoofing Success Podcast.
For more valuable content,visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom
While there, check out oursponsors for exclusive offers,
shop for merchandise and sign upfor our newsletter for industry
(54:57):
updates and tips.
Also join the Roofing SuccessFacebook group to connect with
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If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, like, share
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The website link is in thedescription.
(55:18):
Thanks for listening.
How do you scale your roofing business to $6 million
plus without storm chasing,without relying on door knocking
and without buying leads?
Steven Ragsdale of BlacksmithRoofing figured it out.
He built a highly profitablereferral-driven roofing company
in Oklahoma a market known forinsurance restoration by doing
(00:22):
things differently.
In this episode, you'll learnhow hiring the right sales team
can double your revenue, whyhobby-based marketing and we
coined the term on this episodeis the secret to getting
referrals on autopilot, and thereal reason why most roofing
companies struggle with growth,and how to fix it.
(00:43):
If you want to build a roofingcompany that thrives year after
year without chasing the nextstorm, this is the episode for
you.
Let's get into it with StephenRagsdale from Blacksmith Roofing
.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
(01:03):
roofing business.
Hey, we got Steven Ragsdaleback with Blacksmith Roofing,
broken Arrow, oklahoma.
How are you, brother?
I'm good man.
How are you Good?
Good to have you back on.
You know, we were talking aweek or so ago maybe a couple of
weeks ago now about you know,kind of an update on the company
(01:25):
, the growth that you guys havehad.
Let's for people who didn'tlisten to the first episode with
you, let's give them a littleintro to yourself and Blacksmith
and then we'll get to talkingabout all the fun stuff you're
doing.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Sure, yeah, man, I think last time we met we were
talking I think we were like atwo to three million, maybe
flirting with four milliondollar company at the time, and
I feel like that was probablythree or four years ago and so
since that time we have nowwe're sitting about a five and a
half million dollar company.
We'll probably flirt with six,maybe even seven million this
(02:00):
year, just in the roofing side.
You know we've done this nowabout 12 years and my business
partner he came from the windowsand siding industry prior and
so him and I sometimes in thewintertime when things were slow
for fund money, we wouldinstall windows and stuff just
to help with the huntingventures and different things
(02:20):
like that.
Right, and our wives were happythat we were out of the house.
So after a couple of months ofbeing there, but, um, over time
that kind of just grew and hewas like you know, with the
connections we have withinstallers that he's worked with
for over 20 years andeverything, he was like we
should uh look at starting awindow division.
So we did that and you know weprobably only did a quarter of a
(02:41):
million this year.
This is our first year and wedidn't market it, we didn't do
anything.
It was just word of mouth, andso this year, though, we have a
window salesman dedicated tothat, so I think that part of
the industry will really grow.
For us, obviously, roofing isstill our main deal.
I think that's the biggestthing that we see.
A lot of times, at least in ourmarket.
Roofing companies just becomeGCs of everything, right, and so
(03:07):
the we're really big on justbeing roofers, and now we're
just going to be really big onbeing window guys, right, so
that's going to be what ourfocus is.
We did.
We're not looking to grow othertrades, but this one just kind
of fit really well in the homefor us.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So yeah, that's awesome Finding those
complimentary services offeringservice offerings, but also
having the experience in it,right, your business partner,
having the experience in it, youknow, gives you guys a definite
boost in that right.
You know, when we were talkingthe other day, I mean you guys
are in, you know, broken Arrow,oklahoma.
So the Tulsa area, you knowOklahoma, is known to be a storm
(03:45):
restoration market right.
More so in Oklahoma City, butdefinitely the you know your
area also.
But what was fascinating to meis that that's not what you guys
are doing.
That's not how you're growing.
So I wanted to start off bytalking about.
You know, like the big questionreally is how do you scale a
(04:07):
roofing business in a retailmodel without chasing storms in
a storm market?
Like what do you?
You know, what are you guysdoing?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Man, it's crazy, it's almost Sunday school.
Answer right, you treat peopleright and it'll just grow.
You take care of the customerand stop worrying about the
money and the money will followthat Right, and we've really
made that model the wholeculture of our company.
Even from the last time that wespoke, me and Preston did
primarily all the sales we woulddo everything because you know,
(04:40):
and I think a lot of roofingbusiness owners and roofing
companies are set up that way wekind of get scared to think
about delegating out Right,which, especially with the
majority of the market and theway they pay their salesmen, you
know the way the commissionsare broke down and where it's a
heavy percentage of theprofitability and things like
that.
And we looked at it and we likeeven looked at how suppliers
are ran supply houses and howthey they pay their outside
(05:03):
sales reps houses and how theypay their outside sales reps,
and I'm like you know what.
Those are way bigger companiesthan roofing companies but they
pay their salesman a decentsalary, right, and then they pay
them a smaller percentage butthere's bonuses and things like
that.
So we changed our structure upa little bit, but what it
allowed us to do is be able tobring in an in-house project
manager that he has paidliterally just to manage all the
(05:25):
jobs, warranties, repairs.
So communication on that frontis, after a salesman sells and
everything, that production guycan come in and make sure
everything goes through thewhole process super clean, super
smooth.
But I don't tell my sales guysthat you can just you relax
after you sell the job, becauseI think that's the biggest
mistake we make in sales too.
Right, You're very involved,you want to show that you care.
(05:48):
You weren't just trying to geta signed deal and then you don't
care about them.
We also have a full-time officemanager that does all of our
stuff that you know with theinsurance paperwork.
She helps with marketing.
I mean we really got a all-staroffice manager but we kind of
just got blessed with thoseroles.
And then our sales manager butwe kind of just got blessed with
those roles.
And then our sales team.
When we went to interview themand actually grow our sales team
(06:11):
, we made sure that they werelike-minded people.
When we look at our family, wehave three salesmen and they're
all easily $2 million salesmeneach and they're good people and
they care about the customer.
And I had a $2 million salesman.
Walk in the interview last yearand he would be a $2 million
salesman, but he does not fitour culture and I feel like we
said no to him and told him hewas nothing personal or anything
(06:33):
else.
But, man, we do things togetherafter hours, we do vacations
together as a group and we wanteverybody to feel like a legit
family, and each one of us goteach other's back.
Want everybody to feel like alegit family and we each one of
us got each other's back.
I feel like that culture againsounds sunday school answer
because you asked you, you're ona camera, right, and it sounds
pretty.
I have nothing else to showthat.
That's not the reason why we'vegrown.
(06:54):
Um, because our customers see it.
Um, we take care of everywarranty deal.
We, we create leaks too, right,and so everybody wants to talk
about the perfect stuff.
But I really think handling theproblems that we've created you
know, like when I say that, butlike we have a week or we have
whatever we, we handle ourscrew-ups and we pay for them.
We make them right.
We don't fight on that.
Um, there's always a fairnesslevel right of what's actually
(07:17):
going on siding or something incorrelation to the roof.
But, um, you got to be smart inhow you take care of your
people, because we are 100%referral-based company.
The only thing we pay for isSEO, got it.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Let's talk about that referral-based growth a little
bit, because that's, you know,that's what everyone wants right
.
Everyone wants referrals.
Of course your close rate'sgoing to be higher, but to me
it's like you know you can'tjust go out.
I mean you can, in a way, Ihave a strategy for going out
and buying more referrals in thefuture, but it's you know.
(07:55):
What year did you guys startagain?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
We started.
We've been around since 2013.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Okay, so I want people to have that context
right we're, we're, we're what?
12, 15, what what?
Yeah, 12 years in now, 12 yearsin now, right, so you?
know, let's talk about, maybe,the journey of that referral
growth, because to me, like theway I look at it and you could,
you, could, you know, kind ofgive me your thoughts too is the
(08:24):
.
The way I look at it and youcould kind of give me your
thoughts too, is the way I lookat it from a referral
perspective is you have to dogood business for someone for
them to refer you.
Or from more of a strategicreferral relationship with
someone who has your customermaybe an insurance agent or a
realtor or something like that.
You're doing a good job fortheir customers, so they refer
(08:48):
you more.
So I see two places there.
Are you guys focused on one orboth?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, and I think there's three for us, because
you have an insurance agent thatI look at and how you have to
kind of what you're selling tothem and how you're going to get
referrals from them.
You have real estate agentsthat are a huge part of it,
especially through the housingmarket and the craze it was 2020
and then up to 2023, 2024, youknow Um and then um, and then
(09:14):
you have your customer.
You have your customer referraland I actually go through all
of my sales training and I tellmy guys I'm like you're going,
you're selling to threedifferent parties and this is
what they're looking for, causeat the end of the day, we're not
just selling a roof but we'reselling a filling right.
We gotta, we gotta make themfeel good and make them raving
fans and and and insuranceagents looking at are you going
to file faulty claims justbecause you got on the roof, or
(09:39):
are you going to file a claim sowe've got to give getting a
roof paid for?
Real estate agents.
They care about closing, so wegot to sell them that we're
going to make closing whateverthat looks like, and that
doesn't always mean we'regetting a roof out of it.
We might have to do a repairand game plan, make sure they
can get insurance on the home,and then we game plan for the
next storm or game plan for theright time financially.
And then a homeowner obviouslyroofing is not the most exciting
(10:03):
thing to improve on your homebecause you're sitting in a
recliner, you can't see what youpaid for, right.
But we've got to make sure thatthey feel different than what
they've had in the past and havea good product and they are
trusting in us that we'reputting on a good product and
repping the shingle andeverything else, so they want to
know that they're handled bythe insurance claim and
(10:23):
everything.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I love that For people listening from a
marketing perspective, we callthat an avatar, a persona, right
?
So it's your buyer avatar, yourpersona, your customer avatar,
and so your customer avatar asan insurance agent.
We want to understand whattheir goals are, what their pain
points are.
Their pain point is, you know,a contractor filing a claim
(10:49):
that's now they have to dealwith the customer and their
customer is upset with thembecause they're fighting over
this claim and you know, andyou're like man that was, you
know that was a long shot onthat one.
So that type of pain point.
Their pain point may be thatthey're getting that they need
more customers, right?
(11:09):
That's another pain point thatyou can solve.
So maybe you could potentiallybring I don't know if you do
this or not, but you couldpotentially bring business their
way in some cases Realtors.
I love how you found their painpoint and I got to get this
thing closed.
They don't get paychecks unlessthat thing closes, like the
real estate industry, you know,is a tough one in that regard.
(11:32):
If you're a real estate agent,like you know, there's a lot of
moving parts that happen betweenthe time you get a buyer to
want to go and find a house andthen that thing actually going
through, they're qualifying forthe mortgage, there's the
inspections, there's all thestuff that's going on.
I love that thought process.
And then the homeowner yeah,understanding, I love your
(11:56):
understanding that no one wantsto buy a roof.
Yeah, right, like.
So what are the?
What are the things that youcan do?
What are the pain points?
What are the benefits that youcan provide that homeowner that
would make them say, man, thisis the right company to choose?
Let me tell my friends andfamily about this.
Let me say blacksmith roofinganytime a roofing conversation
(12:18):
arises.
Right, I really like that.
What other you know, as you'vegrown over the years and
developed a sales team and Ithink I'd love to go into sales
team development next but a lotof times salespeople are lazy
Sure, don't, and I mean lazy inthe way that they maybe
(12:47):
sometimes they're just waitingfor the next lead that you give
them, versus them generatingadditional business from what
they have in front of them.
So the best ones are definitelythe ones that generate the
business that's in front of them.
How do you ensure that they areproperly asking for referrals
and developing relationshipswhere you know that they're
(13:09):
going to gain an advantage ingenerating business in the
future.
Sure.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
You know, we had to look at that and dive into it a
little bit because, yeah, weagree, you know, handouts make
lazy people.
You know, I read that somewhereand I was like, oh man, that is
so true because we see that alot, right.
I read that somewhere and I waslike, oh man, that is so true
because we see that a lot right.
But the other side of it is, Ilooked at it and I was like,
okay, your job in sales is tosale, and in roofing, salesmen
(13:39):
are known to be the projectmanager, the insurance
specialist, the adjuster fighter, the inspector, the payment
collector, know all those things.
And my salesmen still collectpayment, do walkthroughs, they
still meet the adjusters.
But if we get a denial, I'vegot a team it includes myself
where if we do have to do are-inspection on it, we help
them do that.
Um, and so we're like, okay,there's still really good income
(14:01):
and my sales guys make greatmoney.
Everybody knows that roofingsales is.
You can be successful in it ifyou're not lazy, right.
But we looked at it a differentway and it's like, why is
everybody?
Why is there such a highturnover rate?
And so I feel like the highturnover rate is because we have
them doing so many things and Icame from that and then,
whenever I was roofing too, Idid everything, which is fine.
(14:22):
The payout is supposed tojustify that right.
That's why the commission ratepercentages are so high.
But at the end of the day, ifyou spend the money on your
project manager, your officemanager and you build these
systems and actually havedifferent departments within
your company, your sales guyscan focus on selling jobs.
And so when they're focused onselling jobs and they're not
(14:43):
stressed about all thesereinspections, all these other
things now they're still a partof it.
They still meet the adjuster.
But if we're doing the paperworkand the photo documentation
because we actually hired aninspector, we have inspectors
that go and inspect the roof.
They're not supposed to give adiagnosis of the roof to the
homeowner.
They're not supposed to sayit's bad or good.
And then, when it gets sent tomy salesman, I'm reviewing every
single customer with them tomake sure we should file a claim
(15:06):
or not, which also is a littleinsurance for me to make sure
that they're not filing bogusclaims.
Ok, which that all leads up to.
How do I keep them from beinglazy and I get them involved in
getting leads and carrying on.
And the big thing is is I madethem all like even at the end of
this year they gave me thegoals on what they want to sell
and I was like the biggest thingwe haven't talked about is how
(15:26):
are we going to get there?
And you're going to know thisterminology better than me, so I
might botch this, but like Ihad read about like vertical
marketing or vertical networking, and I was like what are your
guys' hobbies?
Go join those things.
I got a guy that loves to golf.
I was like go down, there's agolf course down here that has a
private membership for youngguys.
There's only ninety, ninedollars a month.
I was like you can afford thatto network with guys there and
(15:47):
you're already doing somethingyou love.
So even for a big guy like me,I still play in a men's
basketball league.
I got a lot of leads from doingthat and that was free.
I got a guy that has a Bronco,so he's going to join a Bronco
group, and then I've got anotherguy that he just likes chamber
events and stuff like that.
There's something wrong withhim, but no he actually likes
that kind of marketing stuff.
He's doing that and he's doing agreat job with it.
(16:09):
And so I was like, once youpick your hobbies, now it
doesn't feel like door knocking,it doesn't feel like, how am I
going to feed my family?
They're already doing somethingthey enjoy and those people
because I think a lot of guyswill agree with it they're
watching.
This is, when we say roofer,people want to kill the
conversation immediately.
(16:29):
I can be at a networking eventand having a great time and
they're like what are you doing?
I'm almost like, oh, I justwant to tell them I'm in
construction, cause if I sayroofer, there's a chance.
This, uh, this conversation'sover, um, but you know, whenever
they're doing something, thatand so that really has changed
it my guys pretty much just workoff the leads we have, which is
(16:49):
really cool.
The winter time, you know,that's when I was like this is
where the hobbies are going tocome into play and so and that's
that really has kept it andit's worked and so far it's been
great.
And so I think this month evenit's a slow month, you know,
typically in the roofingindustry, I think we're going to
close about 500, 600 000 andthat's a that I mean, that's the
(17:12):
best probably march we've had.
So that's.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
That's a gem for everyone.
I think you just coined a newone, steven.
Okay, hobby based, like, likethat's a it's.
You know you're around people,that that you know that enjoy
the same things that you do,which invokes conversation,
which you know.
You get to know each other andlike each other even more
(17:39):
because of that.
Yeah, so are you like the?
You're the the?
Are you just suiting them up inblacksmith golf gear and just
sending a blacksmith roofinggolf bag a?
blacksmith roofing golf hat.
(17:59):
Let's take this to the nextlevel.
I love this hobby-basedmarketing, right?
If you're, if you're, uh, iffishing is your hobby, man,
let's wrap the boat you knowwhat I mean let's get that lund
wrapped up.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
You know like once we get proof of their hobby and
how they're handling it.
Yes, uh, I'm very much.
I'm making him pay for his golfmembership because I want him
to have that investment.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, you know.
And then know, obviously theyhave hats, they have shirts, you
know, and stuff like that.
And you kind of gave me an idea.
I kind of want a blacksmith bagnow because I have a golf
(18:34):
membership too, but you know,and so but yeah, I mean I think
all that comes in, but you don'twant to look like it's like
almost almost you don't want togo to church to get a profit.
But, hey, they eventually knowwhat I am right and so I'm a
roofer.
But, you know, whenever, uh,when it comes to those, because
I want it to be, hey, I'm steven, and this is what kind of man I
(18:56):
am, the kind of guy I am, whatI'm looking for, oh, I do
roofing too, you know.
And then they automatically,you know, start referring you
that way.
And then they automatically,you know, start referring you
that way.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And then for people that do enjoy that networking at
the chamber and that type ofstuff B&I groups, that thing,
like.
I think the lesson in it too isfind your thing, yeah Right,
find your thing.
You know, that's and that's's Ilike, I like to.
I like reducing friction, yeah,right.
(19:28):
And so if you are telling them,if you're telling the guy that
enjoys golfing and hates bnigroups to go join a bni group,
right, there's friction there.
He, he may be better off at the19th hole.
You know what I mean.
Having conversations withpeople right like um, about you
know, about how how great hegolfed that day or not right
(19:50):
like that's the you know yeah,um, I think that's fabulous.
That's that.
Those are fantastic things.
I talk to contractors every daythat feel stuck, not because
they're not hard, but becausethey're missing the structure to
growth without chaos or theirculture's falling apart, because
(20:10):
their team's unclear, unalignedor just burned out and when
change hits, they're reactinginstead of leading because time
and priorities aren't undertheir control.
Day 41 Thrive helps to fix thatwith proven strategies for
growth, culture and leadershipthat actually work, Ready to
(20:31):
thrive beyond the storm.
Visit the link in thedescription or visit the Roofing
Success Podcast website on thesponsors page to start your
journey today.
So now, as you built it up,moved away from being the
salespeople in your business youand your partner just being the
salespeople you had to developa different skill set.
(20:55):
Uh, you know, I think thatbuilding a sales team, managing
a sales team, is a differentskillset.
What?
How have you structured yourhiring, your training?
Um, you know, getting the teamset up for success?
Sure.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
That was the hardest part.
Um, I always joke that I was asalesman and then woke up a
business owner one day, Right.
And so, you know, I startedroofing when I was 21 and I did.
I door knocked for a couple ofyears and then I had an
insurance agent refer me afterone storm and I was getting so
like three or four leads a dayand I was like I'll never door
knock a day in my life again.
(21:30):
Right and so, and then, as youown a company and you're still a
salesman and you're doing allthe things, now I have a full
sales team.
I had to find a way to becomfortable too, right, Like I
didn't want to just be likethese are my war stories and
this is what I did and this ishow you need to do it, because
that's not going to work.
I mean, obviously it definitelygives us pieces to the puzzle
to find a successful way forthem to sell.
(21:51):
So for me on this, because I domost of the sales management, I
had to find a way for me tostill be plugged in with the
customer and I'm not per se totheir face, but, like I said,
I'm reviewing the photos with mysales guys.
So right now I think we have250 customers in our queue.
I have looked at all 250customers.
Just like that guy I interviewed, he's like oh yeah, you want to
(22:12):
be, hire these guys so you canbe a business owner, so you can
be out.
I'm like that.
Just no, I'm still young.
Like no, that's not going tohappen.
And so I was like, but how do Ikeep that uh, authenticness,
the authentic feel of howblacksmith has been ran this
whole time and how I can trainmy guys, is by like okay, I sat
them in here.
I said this is how I always didmy communication, my followup.
(22:33):
I would bet money I'm the bestin the industry and you know,
all salesmen have to have thatconfidence about something.
But I feel like my sales camefrom my follow-up and my
communication.
So I showed them my processes,um, and I had to find a way to
do it without micromanaging them.
That was probably the hardestthing for me to do um and so,
and we failed in the past yearsbecause I tried to be that way,
(22:56):
uh, and then I had to find a wayto let them kind of learn on
their own.
But then, like I do have, I'veset up slideshows, I'm working
on some third party things to beable to bring them in and show
them, like sales tips and allthat.
I have a sales training everyThursday with the guys, which
just gives us kind of a bond.
Plus, I always have a goodtopic and we go over insurance
(23:16):
scopes and how, just to readthose.
I go over game planning withthe three different customers
that you have, and so we look atdifferent things that way, and
so they do go around with theinspector and they see what we
need to find.
But we are basically trying tocarbon copy our model rather
than me trying to carbon copymyself, if that makes sense.
So we had to build a system andwe had to play with that for a
(23:40):
while before we felt comfortable.
We actually stripped all salesguys off about a year and a half
ago and we're like we want tobuild processes and systems,
which I owe everything to mybusiness partner Preston on that
.
He's ex-military Plus he was aassistant VP of that window
company, so like he knew thatstructure.
I'm sales and marketing, I'mjust a goofy, goofy guy and so,
like, with him bringing thatstructure, I was like you know,
(24:01):
it's really brilliant, and so wedid that and after we learned
ourselves and we learned what wewanted Blacksmith to be, it was
easy to plug people into theroles that we needed, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Looking back at building out those processes and
kind of what it, what theimpact that it had on the
salespeople in developing it outthat way, what would you say?
The 80-20 on that was Like whatwas the you know?
Like if you had to like, nowthat you've gone through it like
(24:32):
man, if these were the mostimportant things we did in terms
of process and structure,develop you know, the, the
systems and processes.
That that was we've seen thebiggest impact around that yeah,
the inspector was huge.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
So, having the guy that and what I what it overall,
not to go through every step,but was giving the sales guys
tools and a team rather thanmaking the sales guys do
everything.
So we, we got the austin's, ourproject manager.
We got the austin, we had thevictoria for the office
management and we said what dowe want them doing?
That's going to take the loadoff the, the salesman.
(25:11):
But then what?
And then I had to correlate howare the sales?
I'm going to make their jobseasy too for the, for the
production manager, officemanager, because they have to be
on their game with how theynotify things and put things in
our system.
But we used AccuLynx to the max.
We have a lot of things set upin AccuLynx to help them with
templates and estimates andstuff.
That way, the inspector, whatit did is, and a lot of roofing
(25:34):
sales guys.
Whenever they see this and gothrough it, they know exactly
what I'm talking about.
If you're a busy sales guy,you're seeing eight, 10 plus
inspections a day.
And then you got to find timeto do the report.
You got to find time to makethe phone call.
You got to find time to filethe claim.
You got to find time to do allthat, as the storm's happening,
you're getting more calls thenext day, next day, so you have
a lot of like deadfall that willcome from that, where there's a
(25:57):
lot of people that just getmissed and they'll get taken
care of.
And the last two major storms wehad me and Preston were going
Holy cow, we had not a fishingstory, we really did increase
like four or 500 customerswithin three to four days just
from them calling our officeline, the first one, we had to
turn the phones off because wedidn't know how to handle that,
and so we were like, okay, well,that part's great, but how do
(26:18):
we capture everybody?
And the inspector thing made itto where his job is literally
to go take photos 60 to 100,maybe more and upload it in
Acculinks, and then my salesguys have time to build a report
off that.
So now their whole day again isselling, they're looking at the
reports, they're buildingreports, they're making the
phone calls, making a decisionso they can file that claim the
same day.
(26:38):
And so then on the back end theproduction manager has that
stuff.
And I'm giving you a longwinded answer of it all, but I
think it was.
How do we make a team literallyhelp each other and how do I
focus on making my salesman justbe salesman?
Speaker 1 (26:53):
So so what I'm hearing this is for people
listening.
What I'm hearing is you wantedto give your.
You wanted to increase the timethat your salespeople were
selling and decrease the timethat they were doing non revenue
generating activities.
There you go, and so so whatyou did is you looked at their,
(27:17):
at their job duties, and yousaid, man, this, this one here
building out that report ordoing.
You know, building out aproposal or an estimate like
that takes a lot of time.
Yeah, okay, let's get that offof their plate, let's take right
.
And so you.
Is that what I'm hearing?
So, that may be a great way forpeople to to, to approach it
(27:41):
Right.
It is is okay, what's thewhat's the thing that's taking
the most amount of time?
Yeah, and then let's, let'slook, let's focus it on that,
let's make that more efficientfor them.
Or or have another team member.
It's a who or a how right, like, so we can, how, how we can
make this more efficient, or whowe can add to the team that can
(28:03):
take that off of their plate.
That you know.
That that really is.
You know, this is what I talkabout.
I love, I love the.
I love business in theiterations that you continuously
make right, like you know phaseone, yet you go sell yourself.
Right Phase two you got to hiresome people and train them and
(28:24):
pass that knowledge on.
Phase three is how do we makethem more efficient in their
process?
How do we?
give them their time so thatthey can be $2 million a year
reps versus, you know,struggling to hit a million
because they're doing all ofthese other things.
Yeah, what other things come tomind, as you know that that
(28:44):
that were, you know, some of themost impactful things around
that.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
You know and you're asking for, like how the
salesman became successful orlike training them.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
How you've looked at these processes, how you've
developed those efficiencies,and maybe you've developed the
efficiencies in your productionteam too.
Maybe you've developed likewhat other places have you have
you done this?
Or or has it only been with thesales team?
Maybe that's it.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah.
So we started with theproduction guy and we're like
what do we need for that to runsmooth?
Then we looked at our officemanager and we're like what do
we need that to run smooth?
And we're talking aboutcommunication, photo
documentation.
And then like at what part inAcculinks do they get tagged,
what duties do they have inAcculinks on when they move the
(29:30):
timeline or like from lead toprospect or approved to
completed?
And then like what you know,we're obviously paying you guys
a salary.
What are you going to do withyour salary?
So you know're obviously payingyou guys a salary.
What are you going to do withyour salary?
So you know, is it job costing?
Are you telling me where I'mnegative on from my estimate and
my sales guys estimate?
I've got it to where myproduction manager he reviews
(29:51):
labor sold versus what laborcame back to on the ticket
because maybe there's addedstuff.
He looks at labor or, excuse me, material sold in acculink
versus what it actually came by,and I'll tell you we were
bleeding on the back end and Ithink a lot of guys were and I
think a lot of it was becausedid we really have to order
three more uh packages ofridgement or you know a ridge?
(30:13):
we might have only needed two.
What happened to that thirdpackage?
Okay, you know, and so like heeven tightened that way and it
sounds like a penny pinch, butwe didn't, and it just made the
process flow.
The crew loved it.
They knew there was a structurethere too, so it really
benefited on those.
And once we knew what we wantedthem to do, then we knew what we
could strip from ourselves guys, because me and Preston were
doing everything.
(30:33):
So we had to view it from oursides like what is taking the
most time?
And we did view it this waywhat's going to put them back
with their family at night?
And so the only thing thattakes the most time for my sales
guy that we can't get away fromis maybe a really long adjuster
appointment or a late nightcontract signing, because hours
worked, stuff like that, and wedon't tell them they have to go
home.
(30:53):
I mean, if they want to makelate night or weekends their
thing, I feel like salesmen.
They got to adapt to theirschedule and what they like and
where they perform the best.
But I hope that kind of answersyour question.
But we do, without making it along deal.
Is we have a system for everyposition, including myself and
my business partner self in thecompany, each department?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, that answers it , but it also provides some
clarification.
I think that this is somethinggood to think about after
hearing it from you is that youworked on the production side
first.
The office side first createdefficiencies there first, so
that when you createdefficiencies in the sales
process, there was capacity, andit sounds like there could have
(31:38):
been capacity issues when youhad that big storm and you had
to turn the phones off.
But right, yeah, yeah, but, butit but, but it's the you know
through the production process.
How, what effects did that have?
Let's talk about that a littlebit.
I think that's an interestingone and maybe you have the
answer.
Maybe you don't, but did youmeasure your production capacity
(32:01):
, how many roofs you could builda week or a month or whatever
to after you optimize thatproduction role?
What?
What did that capacity increaseto?
Did you guys measure any ofthat?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yeah, it made it more profitable, rather than rather
than because we were doing two,three roofs a day.
I mean, we still do, and in thewintertime we're doing four or
five a week if the weather willlet us, which I feel like is a
very good capacity.
But it made us more profitable.
It made you kind of stopscratching your head and going
like, why wasn't the numbers thesame as what we sold it?
(32:37):
And I'll tell you where itfixed us the most it fixed our
estimate template.
So if it fixed all of our wrongestimating like we might've
been wrong on how many bundleswe really needed per thing,
linear foot, what's true, youknow.
So that that is what it made usmore profitable, we had a lot
less loss is what I should say.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
That's a great feedback loop that you created,
right, like you created thatfeedback loop of what, what's
happening and then, like yousaid, now you can make
adjustments on the estimatingside so that you're more
accurate, as you, as you'remaking a, making those making
bid or doing bids and things andestimates and yeah, that's
(33:18):
awesome, yeah, and things andestimates and um, yeah, that's
awesome, um, okay.
So another thing I want to chatwith you about, because it
sounds like I mean, you've builtup, you've built out the team.
Yeah, um, you know what?
What lessons did you learnabout getting the right people?
Speaker 2 (33:36):
it just happened how we got our production guy.
So it really was what are theirfamily values?
So you have to kind of look attheir job histories in the past
and then you kind of also justlike what the kind of people and
it's kind of like our customerswe got referred to, the people
we got.
So Victoria and I that's myoffice manager we went to church
(34:03):
together.
We knew each other as friendsand everything for a long time
because my wife was on staffthere, so got to know her.
I already knew she was a hardworker.
Anything I showed her at thebeginning.
I only had to show her one timebecause she was phenomenal at
writing everything down and thenshe already has a background in
marketing.
So like her brain already worksa way.
You wanted austin, our ourproduction manager.
He was our HVAC guy.
He owned his own HVAC companyfor over 20 years.
He was already.
(34:24):
And that's why I tell all mysales guys too it's like you're
not going to be the reason foryour success.
It's going to be therelationships that you build.
Everybody we know and that wemeet are who got us where we are
.
We knew somebody or somethingand got invited to that right
and so, like Austin calls me andsays, hey, I'm just not going
to be a HVAC guy anymore, I wasable to sell my company and I'm
(34:44):
just going to kind of free rolland I was like I would love to
have your type of person here.
Have you ever thought aboutthis?
Well, so he took it.
So we already had that culturebuilt, that was family and it
was already familiar.
Um, my first sales guy, thatdid really good.
He's young.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I normally don't do really young, but he did an
internship with us.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
I met him at church.
He did an internship for us.
We hunt together and afterwardswe're like, man, you have a
background in sales that youcould do really well and his
whole family was in that.
So we brought him on.
My other sales guy crazy enough, we had done a chimney for a
gentleman that is TikTok, famoushere locally, really well-known
influencer, and his chimney wasleaking but the roofing
(35:21):
companies kept charging him toreplace the shingles around his
chimney.
So when we did his chimney hegot us like 500 new followers
overnight, did all this stuff.
The only way is when we put outthat we were hiring Dylan.
He is phenomenal and has a bigbackground in marketing and in
sales and he came because he hadfollowed us from the chimney
fix and he has a family, reallygood family dynamic.
(35:44):
And then our other guy isPreston's brother.
So our culture is very, reallywell known and, like I said it,
they don't.
My guys don't come across assalesmen.
I feel like we're abnormal inthat part, cause we me and
Preston don't care if you'relike a good upselling salesman.
I know that sounds socontradictory to sales and I
understand what I'm saying, butI, but people are comfortable
(36:07):
and that's what we again.
We sell that feeling and that'swhy I feel like our.
Just last year our averagecontract amount was 10, 11,000.
It always has on our referralbase.
Now our average contract amounthas been 25 to 30,000.
And that's just because priceswent up.
But we have a differentclientele.
We're doing a ton of designershingles now and we didn't
advertise for that.
So there is some things I can'tanswer.
(36:29):
It just kind of happened and wefeel blessed for that and you
feel dumb not being able to haveall the metrics for it.
But I really do think havingthat family dynamic if I had a
flat tire tonight, I knowanybody on my team is going to
come help me yeah, that's prettycool.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And it is in the network that you have right,
like there's, there's a lot tothat and there's a lot of the
relationships that you buildover the years.
You know if someone is.
You know everyone, everyonesees the end result in a lot of
these things, but they don't seethe starting point Right, and
so that's what it makes me thinkof, like a lot of people's
(37:07):
journeys are different.
What you know, I know peoplethat were you know beacon.
You know regional managers thatstarted a roofing company that
(37:29):
had a lot of connections andknew everyone in the market and
knew everyone.
You know how to there.
You know then there's there,there's, you know people that I
know a guy that worked atFacebook and then bought a
roofing company.
Like he has a whole differentlearning curve.
He has a whole you know thenetwork.
He, you know he calls some ofhis tech friends, but are they
going to be able to solve hisroom?
Or, you know, want to sell room?
They might, you never know, um,you know they.
Like there's all thesedifferent places to start, but
that network that you build overtime and then and then also,
(37:56):
what I heard you was that you'relike, oh, you have a like I.
From my interactions with you,I learned what kind of skillset
you have.
Through our conversations overthe years, you'd be perfect for
this role in our company.
Is that something you'reinterested in?
Right, so you're, you know likeyou're you're, you're getting
to know people.
It's the relationships thatyou've created.
How many of your other teammembers have come from other
(38:19):
team member referrals Like doyou have kind of like a family
tree almost going on, like yeah,not yet.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
But I, you know my guys, we had such a good year
and then the winner was thefirst unknown with this big of a
sales team and it's only threebut that's big.
I feel like you know and youknow it'll grow.
But I'm like I want to see howthe winner goes and that's where
me and Preston were like I waslike we do not take any more
sales leads out like this winter.
I want my guys taken care ofand I don't.
I don't believe in thestarvation to make them go get
(38:50):
all the leads themselves and Ithink that's like I said.
I've made them build their ownhobby list and things that way.
So we haven't grown from thoseyet.
I have a feeling that is wherewe're going to get our next
salesman now.
It's just from that family treeof connections.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yeah, and the other side of it that I forgot about
is the social media aspect.
Yeah, boy, you don't know who'swatching.
No, that's right, you don'tknow who's watching.
You got to be putting thatcontent out.
There being engaging.
You know you had someone thathad a big following.
They posted your stuff therebeing engaging.
You know you had someone thathad a big following, they posted
your stuff.
And you know, all of a sudden,this stuff snowballs, they don't
think for one second that repsin your area or or people who
(39:31):
may become good sales reps foryou, aren't watching.
You, that's right, and and andand and, making a determination
if you're a company that theywould like to work for or not,
through the content that you'reproducing.
You know, in the marketplace,are you guys doing much social
media content?
I know you're focused on theSEO stuff, the relationships
(39:53):
face-to-face, morebelly-to-belly relationships.
Are you doing any social mediastuff too?
We do.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
We post, probably weekly and it's pictures and
with a good little blimp of youknow like what we're doing, what
we're going on.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
We'll give you a little game plan on that.
We'll get you leveled up onthat.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
We do yeah, and it'd be good, and it's because me and
Preston haven't spent time, youknow, because Victoria is like,
yeah, let's go, I want to dosome more stuff.
You know, we do like the shinglerep or, excuse me, the shingle
manufacturer that we do a lot ofwork with.
We were able to.
They share a lot of our stuff,so you get that exposure as well
.
But as far as anything else,we're definitely not as hot as
(40:32):
we were when we first got outand trying to get our name out
there you know we're doingvideos and stuff and we need to
revamp that.
We talked about that we do havebillboards rolling out this
month.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
You know, now it becomes the challenge of you
doing it versus your team doingit too, because those sales reps
, as they're out at the golfcourse and, as you know, when
you're down there playingbasketball and the other guys
down at the chamber group like,there's opportunities for them
to be creating content andadding it to the Blacksmith
(41:00):
brand, right, and then that is adirect indicator of who you
guys are as people creatingcontent and adding it to the
blacksmith brand Right, and thenthat show that that is a direct
indicator of who you guys areas people, right, that becomes a
direct indicator of that.
So real, small tweaks, man, it'sall just real small tweaks you
gotta you know along the way.
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(41:25):
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(41:48):
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(42:15):
What has been the driving forcebehind?
I guess the intentionalcreation of your team culture,
because it sounds like, andmaybe did it start off as being
intentional, and then you wereall of a sudden you're like oh
wait, we have a culture here.
Let's focus on that and growingit.
Which was it?
Speaker 2 (42:31):
So yeah.
So I think we started thecompany like a lot of guys
whenever you think, growing upbusiness owner, what's going to
drive money?
What's going to drive sales?
How do we get it?
How do we go?
And then me and Prestston, likeI said when we stripped
everything apart, and we're like, man, this is exhausting, like
how are we going to revamp thisand want to make us stay in this
industry, make us want to stayin this business, and it was
looking at it going.
(42:51):
What do we hate about it andwhy so?
Like, how can we fix that?
Is it because we're spendingtoo much time with all the steps
I told you about?
But we really did look at it as, like we're looking for people
that, um, we want to be able tomake sure that we can provide a
good home life for them as faras, like, we want them to spend
family time together.
We want them.
You know one guy's not marriedor anything, but like we want
(43:13):
him to still have a life,because I think a lot of guys
get burned out in this industryand they don't feel like they
have a life and they'll leave orthey'll think they need to
start their own roofing company.
So we did very much have it towhere, if I guys are sick or
like Austin being on theproduction side, not a sales guy
um, for easy people, easier tosee, to resonate it's like his
family went through a big thingwhere they were sick last year
and it's like we've got yourback.
(43:35):
What do you need?
Where's the food?
It wasn't like you need to bein the office Cause he was
handling his stuff remote and sowe have a little bit of a
relaxed atmosphere there.
That naturally builds that.
But it is spending timetogether.
I think that naturally youattract the people that you're
kind of like Right, and so wespend time with them.
So kind of answering yourquestion.
We started off like whatbusiness you feel like you're
(43:57):
told it should be and werealized if we give people a
more career style feel here, itwon't feel like you're working
for a roofing company.
You need to start your own, youknow yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
So there's always that right Training your
competition, right, I don't knowman, I believe like, if you can
, if you not, everyone's goingto work for you forever, sure,
um, and if you, if you reallyunderstand that and you, you
pour into people and you'rehappy with with what, what their
success can be, um, I wastalking to uh to to someone down
(44:32):
in Florida yesterday.
Uh, they have a good size, goodsize roofing company down there
and I and they're um, and I waslike hey, do you know these
guys in your area?
You know these guys in yourarea?
You know these guys in yourarea?
And he was like no, Right, andit's a testament to the
(44:53):
abundance that is out there inthis industry.
Right, like you know, you maycompete with people on some, you
know, at times, or you know be,you know be competing or trying
to sell the same person, butthere is so much business in the
Tulsa Broken Arrow area, right,just the Broken Arrow area,
(45:16):
right, it's, you know.
I think pouring into people andhelping them be better people
and develop their skill set ismore important than cautiously
being cautious about what theypotentially might do in the
future, if, when something mighthappen.
Yeah, that's right, Right.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
What are some of the things that you do as a team,
that that that has built some,that's built some camaraderie
around the office.
Yeah, so we will do the IREevery other year.
So we've made it anon-negotiable that like, maybe
it's not realistic to go everyyear, but we'll go every other
year and we pay for their waythere year, but we'll go every
other year and we pay for theirway there and the whole team
comes so that we can do whatevertogether while we're there and
we have that travel time, allthat.
So we're together.
On that we do.
(46:10):
I build in monthly goals andbonus structures.
So, like, a lot of things thatwe learned is that salesmen like
money Don't get me wrong,anybody likes bonus money but
there's something more enticingwhen you give them something
that's more tangible.
That, well, money's tangible,but like it, but it has more
weight to it.
(46:30):
So like, like, for instance,this month, if they sell 125,
which looks like they're goingto beat that, there's a nice
golf course about an hour away.
Everybody likes to play golf.
So we're like, hey, everybody'sgoing to go, we're going to stay
overnight, we're gonna play thenice golf course and then the
top guy that sold the most andthere might be a special gift
for him and it I don't know.
It might be a set of golf clubs, it might be this or whatever.
(46:52):
But like so that X, that topsales guy, is trying.
So everybody's trying to be thetop guy.
But as a team, if we hit thesenumbers and we take the sales
manager and we take the officemanager and the inspector, we go
and so we spend time with them.
Our office manager just boughta home.
We're like when are we doing ahousewarming party, you know?
And so it really is like, howare we going to be there for
(47:14):
each other?
So we just spend time with themand it's built that kind of
family culture that way.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
There's a there's something about the things that
are not money.
And here's a story for you,stephen.
I have 10-year-old twin boys,james and Connor.
James likes to sell things andso a couple of weekends ago he
decided he was going to makesome drawings and go out and
(47:44):
sell them on a stand in front ofour house.
I said, james, it's a littlechilly today.
We live in Minnesota, right?
So wintertime, you know, andit's a little chilly today.
Maybe you want to just go doorto door with these instead.
He's like, oh, great idea, I'llgo to my customer, right?
(48:04):
So James is going door to doorselling his artwork around our
neighborhood and someone didn'thave cash so they gave him
cookies, like a package ofcookies, and at dinner last
night we were talking about itand he told his brother it.
That was the best thing he gotfrom the whole experience.
(48:26):
The kid went out and sold like$40 worth of drawings around the
neighborhood, but the cookieswere better to him and I was
like, james, you know you couldgo buy cookies with the money.
And he's like, yeah, but I gotcookies Like it.
(48:46):
It's just like, like the thingsometimes, those little things,
right, it's, it's, it doesn'thave to be money.
Every time there's an emotionthat gets evoked with, with with
a, with a gift or a orsomething like that.
What other things have youworked on?
What other things have been onyour mind?
What are some of the otherthings that have helped you guys
(49:08):
grow?
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah.
So we've always tried to be astep ahead on like what we see
down the pipeline of howinsurance companies are going to
change, how they, you know, paythings, and so obviously I've
got a lot of relationships inthe industry on the insurance
side, which a lot of roofers do,right, um, but again I treat
them like friends and family.
Uh, if they switch out at likethere's a there's, I think, four
(49:31):
or five adjusters that left, um, the industry, uh, this last
year and I've got their personalcell phones, I still talk to
them.
So you try to.
It's the same culture all theway through.
It makes my life a lot easierif it's the same on everything.
But so obviously insurance ischanging a lot and we kind of
spoke the other day when you andI were talking and it's like,
okay, how are we going todevelop the right thing that's
(49:54):
going to keep us the same samelevel of busyness if we go
straight retail when that daycomes, if we feel I mean, I
don't know, I feel like I got alittle hunch that with actual
cash values becoming so popularand higher deductibles and
exclusions and stuff, that wehave to be on top of that, so
that's the new realm of whatwe're learning.
(50:14):
Obviously, financing is the easyanswer, but it's like okay if
we go off of what we saidearlier and we're selling
fillings more than we're sellingshingles, because I feel like
that's what people's reallybuying our roofs off of, because
, at the end of the day,insurance is paying for the
majority of the roofs out there.
So they're kind of going, youknow, there's not a whole lot of
financial burden in that.
So how are we going to makethem, in a way, fall in love
(50:36):
with the product that theybought?
So we are looking at foldersand marketing ways and things
that leave again tangible,Because we can sell a roof
without ever showing them ashingle sample.
That's right, you know, and soit's like okay how do?
we make them engage and be likeokay, we're going to replace our
roof because it's time,maintenance-wise and not
(50:59):
storm-related-wise.
So we are currently working onthe marketing ways of like how
are we going to make them feellike they're getting a kitchen
remodel, you know?
Speaker 1 (51:09):
it's a challenge in storm restoration markets that
you know like and I know we kindof opened it was was how do you
you know how you, how you kindof be a retail company in a
storm market?
Well, what you're, what you'redoing, is you're, you're, you're
getting people to know you.
It's not the door to door way,right, it's not the.
We're only chasing the nextstorm and you know it's, it's
(51:30):
the relationships that you'rebuilding.
But people in storm restorationmarkets, a lot of them know,
right, they know well, a lot ofthem know right, they know well,
I'll just wait for the next one, right, and so.
But I think, highlighting thepain points, what you guys are
thinking about I love the linethat you're thinking, you know,
(51:52):
highlighting the pain points of,you know, the ACV, highlighting
the pain points of higherdeductibles, highlighting those
pain points, deductibles, yeah,highlighting those pain points
Once the homeowner realizes thatthey can't wait for the next
storm, right, right, you know,if, if I were, you know if I
were waiting for the next stormand then it just got to a point
(52:14):
where I couldn't anymore, yougot to do it, and then, and and
and and, having the options fromthe financing perspectives and
things like that, and thenhaving the options from the
financing perspectives andthings like that definitely will
help.
Yeah Well, this has beenawesome, man.
(52:37):
What are your kind of the?
The final piece of advice forsomeone that you know that wants
to that that that that'sstruggling to do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
Yeah, you, you have to jump out on the faith that
you can't do it alone.
Um, there's an African sayingthat I read in a book one time.
That's like, if you want to gofast, go alone, but if you want
to go far, go together.
And I don't know, it's justreally on my heart for to say
that, like if you're a businessowner or if you're a guy
starting out, or it doesn't haveto be in roofing at all, but I
really think you have to beabnormal.
We know what every roofingcompany, every roofer that's in
(53:16):
it, we know how they're set up,we know how the majority of them
are running things.
And I really think if you lookat your family or like what you
want in life and the things thatyou want, I think you have to
go ahead and make the jump andgo.
You can't afford not to affordthe help.
So, um, like, you have to lookat how do I structure this
(53:37):
company to get, keep me sane, tokeep accountability and also to
be able to keep retention.
I don't want my guys to feellike they can start their own,
Not because I want them aroundand I think their competition
they're going to beat me.
That's not it.
I think I've made my footprint.
We're fine.
But I love the guys that I havehere.
I don't want them to leave.
(53:57):
So if you can build that culturefor yourself, if you can go
ahead and just step out andstart looking at those processes
and go, what is taking up mostof my time and my sales guy's
time?
And how am I going to make that?
Well, the sales will justfollow because, again, you've
opened up time for them to justgo sell.
Don't worry about all the otherstuff, and I promise you you'll
(54:19):
still make good money as abusiness owner.
Every business, every otherbusiness, is set up that way.
Why is roofing set up different?
And that's what we askedourselves.
And so I feel like if you'lljust go ahead and step out on a
little bit of faith and pull thetrigger on that stuff, you'll
have a lot better living life.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
Awesome man.
Thanks for your time today.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Thanks, brother.
Thank you for tuning into theRoofing Success Podcast.
For more valuable content,visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom
While there, check out oursponsors for exclusive offers,
shop for merchandise and sign upfor our newsletter for industry
(54:57):
updates and tips.
Also join the Roofing SuccessFacebook group to connect with
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(55:18):
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