The 5 Hidden Bottlenecks Stopping Your Roofing Company from Growing with Jon Broce

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How do you scale a roofing company to a successful
exit and know you're ready to doit again?
In this episode, we sit downwith John Brost, co-founder of
Day 41 Thrive, to dissect thefive core areas every company
must master before scalingCapture, convert, create,
control and culture.

(00:21):
John is a serial entrepreneurand former COO at Meredith Home
Improvements, which he scaledand successfully exited in 2024.
He now helps contractors getclear on when and how they truly
need and are ready to grow.
What makes John unique is hisobsession with systems.

(00:41):
He's not throwing out theory.
He's giving you the exact charthe used to identify bottlenecks
and scale multiple businesses.
If you've ever felt burnt outor stuck, he's been there too.
This episode isn't just aboutgrowth.
It's about sustainable,intentional growth.
If you want to know whetheryou're truly ready to scale,

(01:05):
this one's for you.
Let's dive in with Jon Brosefrom Day 41 Thrive.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
roofing business.
Jon Brose.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
How are you, jimmy?
Good brother Good.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
This is awesome.
Wonderful to have you back.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
It's glad to be back.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, for those that don't know, john's been on the
podcast a couple of times.
If you haven't listened to thepast episodes, go back and
listen to those.
We've become good friends overthe years and our partners in a
in a in a home exterior washingcompany called sure home pros.
How would you describe it?
Home services company?
We'll say home services company, john, because it'll go beyond

(01:57):
we're already, uh, starting outhere, so, um, yes, sir, and now
the founder of Day 41 Thrive.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yes, sir, absolutely One of the founders.
One of the founders.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
One of the founders, correct.
Let's talk about your journeyin roofing briefly, like over
the last few years, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
So, if we go back to what 2014, I had, I I landed the
first big boy job, if you will,right, like I'd work for the
contractors and help them scale,but as far as on the roofing
side, like I'd been a salesmanager, sales trainer, sales
person got into the businessdevelopment side, became chief

(02:42):
operating officer.
Then I exited that company in2019.
So I was there for about fiveyears and then I partnered up
with my partner, ty Meredith,and we're still partners in a
few other businesses.
But I partnered up at MHI,which was Meredith Home
Improvements, and it was, youknow, his last name is Meredith,

(03:02):
so he had purchased the companyoff his uncle in like 2011.
And we were, you know,competitors for a while and he
had seen the strategic growthstuff that we had done at the
other company and I was like,hey, man, like you know, like
how do we become friends firstand then how do we become
partners?
And so we took a lot of thestrategies and we built MHI.

(03:25):
I became an owner and a partnerthere and then, january 2024,
we successfully exited and soldthe company.
I stayed on for an extra yearand a half or so, like 15 months
, as the chief operating officerof Floridaida for vertex um and

(03:45):
had a wonderful sunset.
We always knew that, uh, mytime was going to be there to
help consolidate and geteverybody on the same system.
Once we get everybody in theservice, titan, it's like, hey,
it's like it's time for john togo on his next adventure.
And that brings us to which isday 41 thrive and Sherwin-Pose,
as you mentioned.
So, yeah, yeah, man.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
That's awesome.
One of the questions that Iknow you get and I've gotten a
lot of you know that I thinkpeople need an answer to is am I
like, am I ready to scale mycompany?
I'd love to answer thatquestion today and then maybe

(04:32):
and then even move on to how toright.
So let's start with am I ready,like it, when is a company
ready to scale?

Speaker 2 (04:41):
yeah, it's a very broad question with uh, there's
not a real narrow answer.
So, um, when are the companyready?
So we have what we call ourfour plus one.
C's right.
So we measure everything.
So it's going to be catch orconvert, create control culture,
which, if you put it in intoreal words, I guess is going to

(05:02):
be marketing, sales, production,production, admin and then
people.
So one of the first steps thatwe do is we help identify where
those blind spots are and thosegaps in each one of those
segmentations.
So a lot of people just focuson marketing or just focus on
sales or just focus on, you know, whatever the financial

(05:24):
controls, the, the kpis, but thereal answer is it's, it's
everything, you know.
You have to get a good broadscale of where it's at.
So we created our own growthgauge, if you will, plus a
behavioral assessment where wedevelop a dope chart to get
started, right.
So we identified like areas, solike, if you think about a dope

(05:45):
chart, you got xy axis is likewhat is the most prime person
that's ready to go, and so wekind of started with is it clear
or obscure, right?
So like that's the first thing.
So any sop, anything that we'reasking, we're trying to
identify is it very clear onwhat you're doing or is it
obscure?
Is it simple or is it complex?

(06:05):
So, ultimately, if it's simpleand clear, like this is easy to
scale right.
If it's complex and clear, youknow.
Let's say marketing, you know wesee this a lot as like it's
complex because they have 11different marketing streams.
It's complex but it's clearbecause they know their numbers
and they know where they want togo.
It's a little harder to scalebut you can scale it right.

(06:28):
And so if you take marketing,again, let's say that it's very
simple.
All they do is door knock,right, it's very simple.
But they don't have anycontrols in place because they
don't have any other revenuechannels or any other way to
bring in leads.
It's simple but it's obscurebecause it's very hard to
actually scale.
Then if you go to complex andobscure, like it's going to be

(06:52):
okay.
So I don't know, the sales repsjust do what they want to bring
in leads, like we don't evenknow how we want them to get the
leads.
So we kind of identified as justlike you know, just back in
grade school, right a, b, c or d, and so we developed this dope
chart that we've used for yearsand years and years.
Like, anytime that we'reanalyzing a sop, right, we, we

(07:14):
want to make sure that it'ssimple to understand and it's
clear, so that the communicationis there.
So, and in the same thing withyour leadership score and
culture score, right, like youknow, we will grade that as well
.
Like are they a very directiveperson?
And like they don't have anyempathy and don't you know, look
like different types ofleadership scores.
So like, if somebody is verydirect, so it's very clear,

(07:37):
right, but it's complex becausethey don't have this back and
forth with the employees as well.
So, like it goes really reallydeep on to build this dope chart
, if you will.
And dope, if you know what thatis, is data on previous
engagements, yeah Right.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah, on friend Dave Carroll, that's, right.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
When Dave Carroll made that clear, right, but
that's actually a military term,right, it's data on previous
engagements.
So, like you're just trying toidentify where does everything
lay and you're just doing acluster, point, right.
So you're just finding theseclusters of data and that's what
we do is we have a wholequestionnaire and we take those
answers and that clusters it onthis data chain.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
So hearing what you're saying is the first thing
is you need to look at thesefive areas of your company and
be honest with yourself abouteach of these areas.
That would be the first thing.
And in collecting that data andlooking at that data, hey, is

(08:44):
our marketing?
You know, where are we?
Is it simple, is it complex?
Is it clear, is it unclear?
And now you know, let's startwith marketing.
What would be an example thatyou've run into with a company
that it's unclear?
Well, you kind of mentioned it,right, they don't know where
their leads are coming from.

(09:04):
That would make's unclear.
Well, you, you'd kind ofmentioned it, right, they don't
know where their leads arecoming from.
That would make it unclear.
That that's a really, you know,a really good one.
I mean you, you guys workedwith with us at Roof for
Marketers and MHI.
You know, for many years andand you know we, the goal was
always clarity and where theleads were coming from, right,
like we needed to know.
Hey, were these Facebook leadscoming?

(09:26):
You know, are these Facebookleads?
And then, how are theyconverting?
Are these Google ads leads, theSEO leads, even down to your
billboards and your yard signsand everything else.
You're trying to get thatclarity.
What other things could someonelook for in the marketing
aspects?
What are some obscure thingsmaybe that they're not thinking

(09:47):
of in the marketing aspect tothat that they should be looking
at to determine if they'reclear, unclear things like that.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, I mean it gets into the control section to like
having real measured out KPIs,right.
So you know like we want totalk about raw lead to set right
, to set appointment, from theappointment to the actual demo,
from which which is what is whatwe call price presentation, and

(10:16):
then from the the demo to close.
So so there needs to be morethan hey, I got 100 leads and I
closed 10 up right now.
That, right Now, that issomething to actually measure.
But there's steps along the wayso you have more clarity on is
your marketing?
Is it a lead problem?
Is it an appointment settingproblem?
Or is it a sales problem?

(10:37):
So it could be any of thosethings.
So if I had to say I got 100leads and only closed 10 of them
, like sure, it's 10% close ratefrom from from raw to sale, but
where did it break down at?
And so that's really what wewant to try to do is measure
those micro well metrics here,if you will, just to make sure.

(10:58):
Ok, so it's so, it's like OK,so it's speed to lead issue,
right.
So we got 100 leads, but ittook us over one day to get back
to all a hundred of these leads.
So is that really a salesproblem?
And so I went from a hundredleads to only set 20 of the
appointments, but I closed 10 ofthose.
So I don't have a really asales problem because I'm

(11:19):
closing at 50%.
So I have a set problem.
And then this could be somethingas simple as you know having an
AI agent to at least help setsome of these things, or having
people on the front end of thephones that are actually
answering and calling backwithin the first three minutes.
You know that will help set thestuff.
And a lot of times Rufus saywell, it comes in, I email it to
the next sales guy.

(11:40):
Rufus say well, it comes in, Iemail it to the next sales guy.
The next sales guy is the guythat's going to.
He's going to filter it howeverhe sees fit and he's going to
put it onto his schedule, whichfits his schedule and not the
homeowner's schedule.
And so there's these littlethings that you can make these
little changes and pull theselevers to really maximize that

(12:02):
dollar.
So, from raw to sold.
But also it's like what is yourcost per lead?
What's the cost per acquisition?
You know everybody talks aboutthose things.
I go in as far as to say what'smy cost per appointment, right?
So, like, I want to measurewhat did it cost me to actually
sit in this appointment?

(12:22):
Because are these guys, youknow, like, if I set this up and
the sales guy gets there and hejust doesn't sell it, like and
he has a 10% closure, well, he'scosting us money at $500 an
appointment or $300 anappointment, like it's not a
free lead to go out there andtry to close it, like it's
costing you money to generate.

(12:45):
And then one extra step thatmost people don't do, which is
an extra layer that we threw inabout three to four years ago,
is called NSLI, so it's net saleper lead issued.
So once you issue that lead tothe sales rep, right, closing
rates, great, right.
But what's his NSLI?
Because, like you know, like,if he's closing all repairs and
no replacements and his NSLI isunder, let's say, $5,000,

(13:06):
whatever the threshold is right.
I'm just making that as anarbitrary number.
But whatever you set yourthreshold is, we think healthy
is above $3,500.
Is it going to be healthy?
Like, really stellar is above$5,000 or $6,000.
I'm like that's a really goodsales rep, but if he's under
your threshold, okay, he'sselling too many road repairs, I

(13:28):
I need to raise my repair price, so it's all these little
metrics that go in place.
So it's so.
You can't blame the marketer.
I can't blame jim and brian forhaving bad leads, because I
don't believe that there's suchthing as a bad lead, right, if
you, if you know how to maximizeeverything.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
But that's in the marketing aspect, and you know
we're doing a lot of this in theRSRA too and helping people to
become the GC of their ownmarketing and understand these
metrics along the way.
That aspect of am I ready toscale man, the front end there

(14:09):
is very impactful in knowingthose numbers and knowing the
details along the way.
It is not just how many jobsdid you close from the leads
that came in.
You really get to identify thekey areas of focus that you need
to focus on.
That you need to improve bylooking at the whole thing right

(14:31):
, like if you can't just sayit's this big problem but you're
not looking at all of theproblems in between right, all
of the problems in between rightOn the sales side what, what
are some things that, what, whatwould be complex or or, or you

(14:51):
know in the sales process.
If you're looking at that likeif you had a, you know in
measuring that?

Speaker 2 (15:00):
how?
How are you looking at thatfrom the dope chart?
Yeah, so it's going to beprocess, right?
Is there a process?
Right, so let's start with.
Is there a process?
Cool, so that could be simpleor complex, right, but is there
a process?
So how simple is the process toimplement?
How fast can you spin up asales rep?
You know, are you takingownership of that?
Are you just trying to hire theproblem away?

(15:22):
Right, so, like if you don'thave oversight of the sales team
and you say I want to hire theproblem away, Right, so, like if
you don't have oversight of thesales team and you say I want
to hire a guy because he has allthis experience, that's a very
obscure and complex system.
You can't scale that.
Right, I need to take over myown training and this is how I
want.
I want, I want you to sell theroom.
So you know, like, I'm notsaying that we would never hire

(15:44):
anybody with experience, butwhat I would say is, at our peak
, with our 12 to 13 reps, likemaybe two had experience in
route, enriching.
Everybody else was brand new,fresh off the street, because
they didn't have any bad habits.
So do you have a simple andclear process, or is it again?

(16:05):
I go to the same analogy.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
It's simple because it's like okay, like just go
sell it.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
It's very obscure because I don't have any
training process or any of thosetypes of things, so it's more
of a process driven tounderstand it, and number of
reps.
And is there a leader in place?
Is there training in place?
Is there on you know?
Are they?
Are they bringing them on tothe, to the team, the right way,
with the right expectations?

Speaker 1 (16:33):
yeah.
So again, understanding yourprocesses, understanding that
I'm starting to hear a theme toknow if you're ready to scale.
Do you, do you have yourplaybook right?
Do you have your marketingplaybook in a way to measure it?
Do you have your sales playbookin a way to measure it?

(16:53):
I would assume that moves on toproduction too.
What are you looking at in theproduction process, like, how do
you, what are you looking at tosay, wow, your production
process is more complex thansimple, is it?
You know?

Speaker 2 (17:14):
So, on production, I would say it's, it's.
It's actually probably the mostimportant part, other than
within culture, because you cansell anything.
I mean, how many sales coursesare out there?
Right, you can outsell anybody.
So I did twelve million dollarsin sales but I only installed

(17:37):
three million dollars, like it's.
It's a vanity metric, right,the sales side, right.
So like what I think of it thatway is, like you know, sales is
for show, but the production isto make the right.
That's how you actually bringmoney in.
So, again, it's it's.
What are you measuring?
How are you measuring that?
So we would measure all the waydown to returns, right, so like

(18:00):
, if you have a project managerin place that's dedicated just
for that.
So let's say that the companyhas sales reps who are also the
collection agent, who's also theproduction manager.
That's going to be a little bit.
It's simple, but it's kind ofobscure because it's going to be
a CU rating.
It's harder to scale becauseyou don't have the controls in

(18:24):
place.
So it's simple, because I justgot the sales guy, he just does
it all.
But it's also obscure becauseyou have no control over the
outcome and so like, that's theway that I think about on the
production side is we like tobifurcate that out to where
sales and the production teamsdo what they do the best.
There's nothing worse than asales guy being on a sales call

(18:48):
getting a text that I need sixpieces of drip edge and he's got
to run an hour across town togo do that.
He's got to cut that salesappointment short.
If you're in sales, you shouldsell.
Now.
There's people that will notagree with this, but that's just
the concept that we have alwaysthought was the best.
Is you separate it out?
It needs to be a pass-offmeeting, if you will, right?

(19:10):
Once the sales is done, iseverything done?
Is all the pictures in?
Is all the work orders correct?
Passes it off to production.
And that's where, in my mind,the real process comes in.
Is are we auditing these jobsas they come in?
Then we pass that on to thescheduling team.
And then is the scheduling teamreaching out to the homeowner
on a consistent basis, right?

(19:30):
Then you go to the next step.
Are we ordering the correctmaterials?
Are we auditing back to theoriginal roof drawing?
Right?
Are we?
You know?
Are we pushing these thingsalong and making sure that
there's little to no screw-upsthe day of the build, right now,
don't get me wrong here.
So if, if a sales rep sells,you know 50, you know in his

(19:55):
clothing, his clothing rate,that's 100 day, like he did
really, really well inproduction.
If you get 80 of your stuffaccomplished that day, that's
like having 150, 50 percentclose rate as a sales rep,
because it's such a problemsolving, ongoing thing that you
got to solve every moment of theday.
Right, because the crew getsstuck at the dump, you get a

(20:16):
flat tire, they send out thewrong color, drip edge, ridge
cap, whatever it is like.
There's all these moving pieces,and so one of the things that
we try to measure is what isyour installed revenue?
Right?
Like, are you actuallyinstalling this?
What is your collected revenuelike?
Those are the two big thingsthat we're measuring every week,

(20:37):
because then that way you candetermine what is your actual
backlog, right?
So like, if I sold a milliondollars but I installed 200,000,
I probably have a backlog of800,000.
And if I can only install the200,000 a week, guess what?
I'm four to five weeks out now.
So how do I increase theproduction rate to where I'm two

(20:58):
weeks out, two weeks out, right, so you've got to be able to
measure these things effectively.
So what did I actually installthis?
I might not have collected ityet, right, because it's an
insurance job or it's a big HOAjob or whatever.
But what's my revenue that Iinstalled this week and, like
that's one of the things that'sthat's hard to.
It's not hard to measure, butit's hard to rack your head
around why I measure.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
It makes a lot of sense and I think that there's a
.
There's probably a big gapthere in a lot of companies, and
this is why we're talking aboutthis in terms of are we ready
to scale this thing up?
Right, like, if you can'tmeasure your capacity, like you
can't scale beyond your capacityto to, to be honest, right.
So, if you don't, if you're,even, if you, man, I just need

(21:43):
to add more sales reps, not notalways.
We just need to sell more jobs.
Well, you got to be able tobuild those jobs and you have to
determine, like you said, youknow how many people, how many
homeowners, are going to be okaywith waiting two months to get
a new roof roof built?
Right, like, how many?
Two, three months, if you havethe capacity to only build x

(22:04):
amount per week, man, you're ina lot of trouble.
So, when we're thinking of andthere's you know, kind of coming
back to the theme of thisconversation of of being ready
to scale, being ready to measurethat right, or having the
proper measurements in placearound production, to know, okay
, okay, what's our capacity here?
What, what, what are we able todo?

(22:32):
What about on the admin side?
Like, moving on to the adminside, like what are the things
that you're looking at in termsof admin that?
What metrics are you measuring?
What are you doing on the dopechart to kind of determine those
things?
Before we carry on with theepisode, let's give a shout out
to one of our sponsors.
I talk to contractors every daythat feel stuck, not because
they're not working hard, butbecause they're missing the

(22:54):
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, because their team's unclear,unaligned or just burned out and
when change hits, they'rereacting instead of leading
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(23:16):
growth, culture and leadershipthat actually work, ready to
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journey today.
What about on the admin side?
Like, moving on to the adminside, like what are the things

(23:39):
that you're looking at in termsof admin?
What metrics are you measuring?
What are you doing on the dopechart to to kind of determine
those things?

Speaker 2 (23:48):
But this one is is is important as well.
So it's measuring theirreporting packages, like, are
they on cash basis or the otherlike gap accounting?
Like either either one is fine,but how are you?
How are you measuring?
Are you?
Are you looking at this stuffweekly or just at the end of the
month or at the end of the year?

(24:08):
It's like, hey, I'm throwingmoney at it and and just spray
and pray, right, like that'swhat we don't want, right, what
what we're looks.
Just like that's probably themechanism to help you, like
start to launch.
Is I know my numbers, right,because now I could just pull a
lever.
Right, I know my, my cog.
I know my, my, my overhead,right, I know everything

(24:31):
involved there.
But at the end of the day, it'slike, if so, if I can't control
what my, what my profit isgoing to be like, I won't be in
business for very long, and so Idon't want to be that guy,
right, that goes out of businessin two to three years.
So the first thing I'm going tolearn is going to be QuickBooks
.
How do I understand what ajournal entry is Like?

(24:53):
What does this really mean?
Like, do I have cash in thebank to actually do this,
because cash in the bank on acash basis doesn't mean I got
cash in the bank to actuallyinvest in something, right,
because I've taken a downpayment or I'm not completed on

(25:14):
this job.
You know like it's work inprogress and so you got to
understand the financials tomake good decisions.
You know it's kind of like withwith your point a minute ago is
I don't want to hire a bunch ofsales guys to keep doing sales
at the problem if I can't getthe work done.
So I got to find thatbottleneck and the only way to
measure that is in yourfinancial.
So I got to find thatbottleneck and don't want to
measure that as in yourfinancial reporting.
So if I don't know what what mycost of goods are, like my
labor, my material, like how doI reduce that and not have to

(25:36):
raise prices?
Right, it's OK to raise prices.
But the first thing I'm going tolook at is how do I lower my,
my cogs first, and it could belittle things, like I said
earlier about like measuringreturns right, it's like we
would pay commission to theproduction team for the
percentage of returns, right,and then it cut my cogs down,

(25:57):
right, even though it became avariable expense and that's the
other thing too it's fixed very,very.
I love the variable expensesbecause when you look at your
reporting package at the end ofthe month, like if we did well,
well, guess what Commissionswent up, so it's still a good
percentage.
But if we did bad, well, guesswhat Commissions went down, or

(26:17):
these variable expenses wentdown.
And so it doesn't look likethis on a cash basis.
It looks more like a wave oflike.
Ok, like January is a bad month, but it's a bad month across
the company.
So we love variable and then nocap on things, so it's fun.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
And so in admin, in that admin role, you know, the
first thing that comes to mymind is, like your office
manager, you know people workingaround the office and things
like that, but you're talkingabout even going you know it's
your finance A lot of thatcategory that you're talking
about even going, you know it'sit's your finance A lot, of, a
lot of that category that you'retalking about is around
finances, sounds like.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, it's finance and SOP.
But I think departmentally, ifyou break it up like sales will
probably have a salesperson,sales coordinator.
That's kind of an admin orsales admin.
On the production, it's thesame thing the production
manager and the production admin.
So yes, that's part of it, butit's more of the control of the
administration.
The back end making good, gooddecisions.

(27:15):
It's not just who you hired inthat department.
So yeah, yeah what?

Speaker 1 (27:24):
now?
Let's move on, I guess, todetermining if you're ready to
scale around culture.
Yeah, and culture is a vague,you know, I mean, it's kind of,
you know, it's a word that'skind of thrown around a lot.
It potentially is not astangible in its metrics as a

(27:54):
lead to book appointment to say,right, like for production, you
know, returns to right, like,it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,
there's, there's, there's lessof those like real, finite
quantitative measurements.
Yeah, what are we what?
How are we determining if we'reready to scale around culture?

Speaker 2 (28:16):
yeah, that's the most the complex of this.
Um, and how do you putobjectivity to a subjective
matter, right?
So a, so a lot of people andthis is just being honest here
think that their culture isawesome.
Because we're family owned andoperated, we do all these
wonderful things, we have a fun.
Like the real culture metricthat you want to try to measure

(28:40):
is when somebody walks into youroffice, you close that lid on
the laptop and actually listento them, or do you just ignore
them and continue to work?
Don't get me wrong.
I believe that you have toseparate that out, right, like
having distractions and thingslike that.
So, like it's simple thingsthat you can do I mean, since

(29:02):
I'm giving you kind of an answerhere instead of the question to
it but like it's simple thingsthat we that would, that we want
to measure.
Like, if my door is closed, likeI'm in a meeting, I would put a
code out on the door that theycould scan and get on my
calendar.
It seems formal, but it alsogives them a voice.
If my door is open, walk in anymoment at any time, right?

(29:25):
And so how do you make surethat your door is open more than
when it's closed, and so that'sthe hard part.
So we developed what and I'vehad this for about the last 10
years, but it's called aep, soit's attitude, effort,
performance, so we're trying totake the subjective matter of

(29:45):
culture and put it into anobjective standard.
So we actually have a blindpeer-to-peer test that we do
based on their attitude, theireffort and their performance, so
to see if the culture is ready,right, this is like step three
in the testing.
You test the entireorganization, and it's a blind
test.
Nobody knows who voted who orwhat, and then they ask you know

(30:08):
, it's 33 questions, right, andevery one of them is worth three
points, except for one.
It's four, it's on 100 percentscale, and we even vote on the
CEO all the way down to thefield rep, and because, like as
a sales manager, I got such anElaine in a channel at one time
that my sales guys are killingit.

(30:28):
Right, they're closing, they'reclosing, they're closing, we're
doing our job.
But when they were talking tothe admin team or the production
team, there was absolute jerks,and like I didn't realize, I'm
like no, he's good to me, whatare you talking about?
I was so.
I had blinders on, and so beingable to measure that
effectively is very, verydifficult, but we have a way to

(30:51):
do that.
Back to the original part of thequestion, though, is like part
of this assessment and cultureis knowing that your culture is
not.
We call it MVV.
Right, mission, values, vision,like people.
Like, our mission was never tothe customer, my mission was to

(31:11):
the employees.
Right, our values weren't tothe customer, our values were to
the employees.
The vision was never to thecustomer, it's to the employees.
What does it really matter tothe customer what my mission and
vision is?
I mean, I know it sounds weird,right, so we have a very
obscure way of looking at it, avery different way of looking at

(31:33):
it, but we wanted to make surethat employees were the people.
So, but we stuck to the mvv,right, so if it didn't meet our
values, we had to cut thatperson loose.
Period, like it was not, evenit wasn't negotiable.
Right, because everybody'swatching.
If you want to build a, a teamwhere, where people will run
through walls and I feel like wehad that at emhi like we talked

(31:55):
to, I talked to all of ourleaders and everybody was there
it's like.
It's like we, we built thisculture where their voice meant
something, but when we said no,it was okay because they
understood why.
Right, so like that's the waythat we look at it.
So if you want to build thatculture where they run through

(32:16):
walls, right, you really have todig down deep, and that's where
it starts.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
Yeah, yeah, it's hard to measure, but there are
definitely things that you can,that are there to measure
against, to understand if yourculture is there.
Because all of these, the fourplus one, right, the four main

(32:48):
things plus culture, as you hadmentioned, it's four C's plus
one they all have to be in place.
How much in place, john, to say, hey, I'm ready to scale.
Do you need to be at a?
Could you be at an 80% on oneand a 60% on another?
Or do you need to be at 100percent ready on all of them?
Because you know how we do it,man, we build the plane on the

(33:11):
way up sometimes right.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
That's a very good question, right?
So you could be a D and stillscale, yeah, well, you have to
have a very clear blueprint andpath.
So I think it's a greatquestion.
So I hope I didn't scareanybody away by saying that the
number one thing, no matter whatand it really goes into the

(33:36):
culture, but it's going to beextreme ownership in the owner
itself.
They have to be ready to change, they have to want to change
and they have to understand thatthere's going to be a lot of
pain in this growth.
There's a lot of pain in thisgrowth.
There's a lot of pain in thatgrowth, right, and you're going
to lose some people on your teamthat you've invested in and
that you really wanted to bethere, but they're holding you

(33:56):
back and that's tough to say it.
But in the original side of that, if you want to scale the
company, you have to make veryhard decisions and change
management has to be theforefront of your um, of your
mind, because, like when it'sjust you and two people, you're,
you're floating around on arowboat, right, you could move
directions, the current, youfollow, the current that you

(34:18):
could go once you have a 30 manorg, let's say you're on a
battleship right.
It takes a little bit of time,planning strategy, to turn that
ship to go down a differentchannel, right.
So you have to get the troopson board.
There's a whole new mindsetthat you have to do, but it has
to start with the captain.
If the captain is not ready,right.

(34:39):
If the captain is not ready tomake that change and to have
those hard conversations and toput the SOP in place and to
measure that SOP in place and tomeasure everything effectively,
then you're not ready to escape.
That's the number one thing.
So all these other scores help,right For us to know where the
blind spots are at.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
But the number one thing is is that captain ready?

Speaker 2 (35:00):
mentally Want to actually escape.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
So now that leads me to what do you feel gets the
captain ready?
What have you seen?
What did you see in yourselves,in Ty, in other successful
owners, jason, and all theseguys or people that you've

(35:26):
worked with on the consultingside?
What?
Why is I'm going to put it thisway?
What?
Why have you seen in a lot ofthese owners who make that
decision we're going in thisdirection?
What?

(35:47):
What is that?
Have you seen it?
More of a financial motivation,of a of a purpose driven
motivation, like what do you?
What is the motivating factor?
That?
That that that gets the captainready in a lot of cases.
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(36:51):
What?
What is that?
Have you seen it?
More of a financial motivation,of a of a purpose-driven
motivation like what do you?
What is the motivating factorthat that turn, that that gets
the captain ready?

Speaker 2 (37:11):
in a lot of cases, yeah, it's a great question, the
, the, I'd say the the top fewthings are going to be.
One is they're tired, right,they're fighting the storms.
They're tired, right, they'refighting the storms.
They're doing everything andthey're and they don't know how
to delegate Right.
So that's one of the big, thebig things is learning how to

(37:35):
delegate.
They don't trust right, theydon't trust people.
That's why you got to have aprocess and trust the process.
But most of them want freedom,and it's not financial freedom
specifically, but they wantfreedom from owning a job to
actually make it make an impact.
The people who are looking tomake true impact on the
community, on their team, ontheir family.

(37:57):
They're typically tired, likethey tried everything there.
Their pride's been broken, like, which is a good place to
actually be, because now you canlearn to be an empathetic
leader and make hard decisions.
And sometimes people you'remaking the best decision to let
somebody go because they're nothappy on your team.

(38:19):
Anyway, they're bringing downthree other people, but they're
worn out down.
You know three other people so,but they're worn out.
I'm I don't know if that's theright, the right terminology
here, but kind of like you know,when I was writing the book.
Like you know, don't getthrived through storms.
So those were the things I wasthinking about is like we
developed these systems becausewe were tired.

(38:40):
You know we were because life'sa storm.
Right, we're either in themiddle of the storm, coming out
of a storm or going into anotherstorm.
These storms just keep hittingyou and hitting you, and hitting
you, and hitting you, and ifyou don't know how to navigate
that and and and have the rightcompass and the right blueprint,
you just get worn out.
And so being able to putyourself into a, a stoic mindset

(39:04):
of hey, like this too shallpass.
You know, if, if, if it's great, it's great.
If it's bad, it's bad, it justis what it is.
And I know that's like anoverused term, but like, how do
you get on an emotionalintelligence level?
That's what it is that they'rereally searching for.
And the bottom line of is howdo I become more emotionally
intelligent?
Right, and that's the key thatunlocks the growth.

(39:27):
It's like I'm tired.
How do I not get upset abouteverything that comes and goes?
How do I lead, lead a teameffectively?
We're getting ready to run tothe side of a mountain here, but
I've got to turn this shipright and in the next 90 days,
how do I make that turn?
That's where most guys are at.
And then you know and it's sadhonestly, because you know

(39:50):
that's why most businesses failis they don't have that right
focus.
Yeah, and as I hired my friend,I saw a lot of potential in him
, but he's the anchor that'sturning the ship around in a
certain way.
So that's what I would say isthat the catalyst is they're
tired and they want freedom andthey want to break free and work

(40:10):
on a business instead of in abusiness and make impact in
those around them.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
I love what you said, that trust comes from process,
trust with our team, because wehave a level of knowledge or and
a and a, a love for ourbusiness that other that your
team members will not have, alove for our customers that your
team members will not have,right, we can't or I shouldn't

(40:40):
say will not have, which weshouldn't expect them to have.
Yeah, right, like we can'texpect them to love our business
the same way we can't expectthem to have, we can't expect
them to love our business thesame way, we can't expect them
to love our customers the sameway or appreciate our customers
the same way we do.
So that lack of trust in yourteam becomes that roadblock to

(41:03):
moving the business forward, orworking on the business versus
in the business, because youhave to be so involved in
everything.
So the trust comes from process.
I love that because if you havethe process now you've trusted

(41:23):
that you have put the things inplace to take care of your
customers, to take care of themission of the company, to be
able to work on the business,how do we go from that assessing
our readiness to scale intoscaling?

(41:45):
Let's move into okay, we, we'veassessed it, we think we're
ready, we're, we're, you knowwe're.
We understand that, that itcomes from process, comes from
metrics and measurement.
Now let's move into how do Iscale.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
yeah, so I want to hit one thing real quick.
You said there, though, jim too, because I think it was
important and I don't want tojust go over it.
So one thing that you said too,that we really talk about a lot
is expectations and you know,and what is an expectation
versus what?
Did you agree, right?

(42:24):
So if you don't have clearexpectations and an agreement,
right so, like my, my sops are,I mean you agree to do this,
right?
So it's not like it's not anexpectation that I didn't
verbalize.
But back to the expectationthing too is like, how do you
expect a, a employee, to 5x whata normal person would do if

(42:47):
you're only doing 1x, first ofall?
So, second of all, with thattoo, is you can't expect the
employees to be the same as you.
So the expectations as an owneris like hey, this person, why
don't you take care of thiscustomer as much as I would have
taken care of?
Well, the real answer is thatyou didn't take care of the

(43:09):
employee the same way that youwant them to take care of the
customer.
Henry Ford was one of the bestthat I've studied a lot, right?
So I mean you can love or hateFord, I drive a Dodge, but
anyway.
But Henry Ford, when it came toculture and people and it it's.
It's often overlooked like, yes, he created the assembly line

(43:30):
and not the car, but he reallycreated the 40-hour work, work
week and he created a culturewhere he invested in the people
and then the people invested inthe product, which invested in
into the customer.
So once you get to a certainspot, you're no longer the
customer service interface.
My new customers became myleadership team.

(43:50):
That was my customer.
How I treated them is how theytreated the next customer, which
was their leadership team orthe direct customer.
So you have to change that siteto not be so far at the end for
just the customer.
My new customer is like, how doI serve my leadership team?
Right, because when I servethem they serve the next leader

(44:11):
or the customer.
So that's servant leadership,that's being an empathetic
leader and that's extremeownership.
That doesn't mean that I won'ttalk to a customer, an actual,
like paying customer.
But when I changed my visionfrom just the customer only to
how do I serve my team, theybecame my customer.

(44:32):
So how do I get them to 2x, 3x,5x expectations?
Is they became my customer.
But if, right now if they'rejust a C player or a B player.
I'm first going to examinemyself.
What have I done, like wherehave I messed up?
Where have I not given you whatyou need to succeed?

(44:54):
And so I think that goes topart of your question is how do
you do this?
First is like if you jump intothe book that we have, but it's
self-examination.
You have to examine yourselffirst, like where did I get
where I'm at?
How do I go to the next level?
Right?
So you have to self-evaluate.

(45:15):
Once you self-evaluate.
That might be through a coach,through your church, pastor,
somebody, but you have toself-examine where I'm at in my
life, where I want to go.
That's the starting point,because if you want to lead
people and not just make money,because people are over-profit,

(45:36):
if you want to lead people andmake impact and change other
people's lives, it starts withyou.
And it's the old adage of whenthe airplane is going down I
could put my oxygen mask onfirst, so I can help everybody
else.
That's the same thing.
You've got to work on yourselffirst.
That's how you start, that'sthe first step.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
I agree, man, that that self work, preparing
yourself for this journey, right, Like if you're not ready,
you're, you're not going to doit.
It's not like you're gonna havea lot of challenges.
One of the things that youmentioned was putting the focus
on the team, and that's whatI've seen it with a lot of good

(46:17):
owners.
Is that, like when businessesget started, I say I've said
this probably a lot on thepodcast, but when we start
businesses, we'll make a livinga lot of times and then we get
to this place where we're makinga living, a good living, and
then all of a sudden, there'smaybe, potentially, hopefully,

(46:39):
you get to a point where there'ssome excess.
You're like, wow, I don'treally need any more, like
financially right, but throughthat process you build this
skill set that what you can dofor others is tremendous, like
the, the, what you can do foryour team changes.

(47:02):
And so now, when that missionshifts from your financial gain
to their or your financial andand personal growth, to their
financial and personal growth,wow, like I've seen some shifts
like it's crazy when thathappens.
So understand yourself and andthen you know, understand where

(47:26):
you want to take this ship andlead it.
What are some tangible thingsthat they can do.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yeah, so it's a mindset shift, right?
That's the first thing, um, andnext thing is find a good
mentor, um, that that you cantrust and look up to, not
because of their sales metrics,because of their vanity metrics,
all the other things, butpeople that.
So we are the sum of the fiveclosest people, right, and so so
I don't take what's the rightword here.

(47:54):
I don't take what's the rightword here.
I don't take advice from peoplethat I don't want to be, yeah,
right, and I don't takecriticism from somebody I
wouldn't want to look up to.
So, and usually, when you findthat right five in your circle,
like, you become that sum ofthose and this good or bad,

(48:19):
right, it's negative andpositive.
So you got to be very mindfulof of who you, of whose advice
that you take, um, and not alladvice fits you.
So the first step I would sayis find a good coach or mentor
consulting team, like that's.
That's one of the things thatwe do.
One of the things that we do aswell, as, after this assessment
is, you know, and then we startto work with you, is we got the

(48:41):
people side, as we say, right,or the personal, on the
development side.
That's why I partnered up withJeff Vaughter.
So if you're ready but yourmindset is just a little bit
short of getting there withchange management, we will put
you through that first, becausewhatever you try to implement
after, that is not going tomatter.

(49:01):
So it's got to be a mindsetshift first, um, and then like
the tangible things are going tobe, you know, make sure you
start measuring actual metrics,like go in and do the hard work,
like let's do the five years ofhistoricals and like one little
tip with everybody out there,the first thing that we do when
we start to build a onehistoricals, and like one little
tip with everybody out there,the first thing that we do when
we start to build a one-pageplan and like build out

(49:22):
budgeting and all this otherthing is, I want to look at the
historical.
So if you, if you've been inbusiness for 30 years, don't,
you, don't, you don't have to gothat far, but let's go back
just five years.
Right, and how much revenue did, did I do in january in year
one, two, three, 3, 4, 5?
February year 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
March year 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

(49:42):
So we'll start to trend right.
Notice these trends.
And so now I'm going to gowhat's my percentage of business
?
Instead of saying I want to do$1.2 million this year at
$100,000 a month, what is mynormal trend?
So in january I normally dotwenty thousand dollars and not
a hundred, right?
So my percentage of business isthis is two percentage, not ten

(50:05):
percent, and so that's the waythat we want to look for trends
like that's.
The first thing to do is gofind those numbers.
What's my historical data?
Right?
That's like step one.
Then you want to back into thestuff that we've talked about
with the marketing and the salesand the production rates.
Like once you start to knowthat now you can have control

(50:26):
over the company but those areusually the first tangible steps
is mindset, know, know thehistoricals.
Then start to build aroundmarketing, sales and the
production side to where you canhave an FRP or a financial
reporting package.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
Yeah, I think that's it.
Knowing the historical, that'san important thing that I think
is overlooked a lot because, man, when you make that decision I
want to go from a $4 millioncompany to a $10 million company
it's managing your ownexpectations in a way.
Right, like you know, how'd youget them for?

(51:07):
Did that for take you 10 years?
Like, and what you know, andand and how did you do?
Were there some ups and downsin there?
You should have someexpectations around the ups and
downs that'll.
That'll happen between the fourand the 10 or wherever you're
going.
Right, then you've lookedhistorically.

(51:28):
Now we got to start lookingforward into planning, I would
assume right, I think we talkedabout this before like a 30-day,
90, 90 day, one year, threeyear plans.
How are you building those out?
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Speaker 1 (52:14):
You've looked historically.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Now we got to start looking forward into planning, I
would assume right I think wetalked about this before like a
30-day, 90-day, one-year meeting, like, hey, what do you want to
do?
So well, you know, in threeyears, like, I try not to go all
the way to five, so I try to goto three.
Well, I'm at three million nowand we want to be at 20 million

(52:49):
in three years.
Cool, how are you going to getthere?
So, and then we have to workour way backwards and it's like
well, so to get to 20 million,we've got to do X.
This is our average job price,right?
So our average ticket, if youwill.
So you've got to sell X amountof jobs to actually get there.
And so I bring it down to therealization of OK, so do you

(53:13):
have $7 million in CapEx toinvest?
Like, well, no, I'm like, well,then you're not going to go
from three to twenty and threeyears unless you've got money
out of pocket to spend oninfrastructure now.
So why don't we get into therealistic side of this and say,
okay, so 30 organic growthshould be a minimum standard,

(53:34):
right?
30 to 50 is where most peopleshould land in growth every year
.
So if you're at three million,right, and you know like it's,
it's easy to double from one totwo.
It's easy to double from two tofour.
From that point on it's like 30percent organic growth.
Because now I've got to put inSOPs, I got to hire people, I
got to train people, I've got towork on the people aspect, I

(53:54):
got to work on my leadershipskills.
That four to 10, man is like ahard stretch.
It's a hard stretch.
So, as a roofing company owner,you probably make less money at
10 than what you did at four.
So make sure that you're readyto do that, to make less money
or at least the same money.
Just because you got more inrevenue doesn't mean that you're

(54:14):
making more money to bring intothe household.
So I think that that that's oneof those expectation things.
So 30% organic growth.
So we would break it down.
So okay, so let's set a 50%growth goal, knowing that we're
setting our budgets at 30%growth.
So I did $3 million.
I'm setting it 4.5 for year,one right of this new growth,

(54:39):
like so.
So that's our growth goal.
I'm setting budgets at 4.1.
I'm not setting the budgets at4.5.
Well, what if I fall short?
What if something happens?
So I try to give them morerealistic ways of getting there.
And then so so I'm gonna gofrom the 4.5, what's next?
Okay, so you can do two and aquarter more more.
So now I want to go to 6.7 or 7million, right, so you can get

(55:01):
there by year 10, you're, or byby year three, you'll probably
be at 10 to to 12 million ifyou're three now, if you, but
it's going to take six months ofcleaning everything up and then
that's the starting point,right, once you've launched.
Okay, now I'm ready to grow.
Three years you can go from fromthree to ten easily, but it's

(55:23):
there's a lot of growth painsand involved with that.
So that's what I would say islike.
So what we do is we come in andwe start at three years and
work our way backwards.
Once we work our way backwards,then we set a the realistic.
Let's go to 12 million in threeyears instead of 20.
Okay, what does that look likein year one?
So now it's 4.5 this year.

(55:44):
What's it look like in Q1, q2,q3, q4?
Now I've got quarterly goals,okay, so what's my next 30-day
sprint?
Right?
So what's my 30-day goals andthe reason why you want to have
this, like in my world as astrategic growth advisor, if you
will this is the most importantpart is 3, 1, 90 and 30 all

(56:07):
have different meanings.
I don't share the three yeargoal with the field reps or with
the sales reps, right?
So you have to understand thatyou can't share the full vision
with everybody.
Their vision has to fit insideof your vision and they have to
understand and own it.
So you got to know whereeverybody lands, right?
So, like I, go to salesmanagers.

(56:28):
Well, sales managers they seethe one year and 90 day, but
they're focused on the 90 day aswell as the 30 day.
That's what their daily focusis on.
They understand that there's aone-year goal.
Then the general managerthey're focused on the one-year
and the 90-day.
Yes, they got to drive home the30-day goals, but their main
vision is one year.

(56:49):
Then you go to the three-year.
Now it's C-suites and ownersare three years and five years.
You got to look at the fullvision and work your way back,
and most guys don't do that.
They just start throwingspaghetti at the wall and with T
on my team, she's phenomenal.
She used to say I hated her abowl of spaghetti and asked her
to lay it all out.

(57:09):
She was right, though, butshe's an operational genius
anyway.
So, when it comes to SOP andand implementation like she was
just the bomb and still is thebomb and she's on our team as
well, but like a bowl ofspaghetti, how do you untangle
the spaghetti and put it down?
Right, that's what you need.

(57:30):
An implementer that's what youneed.
It should be the integrator.
I'm top of funnel, I'm throwingout all the right and you know
it's funneling down.
It's like how do you actuallyintegrate this?
And put the details too?
and that's where you got to findthe right people and be able to
communicate that clearly,simple and clear yeah, the right
people.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
That's a tough one, man like.
I think that's the biggestchallenge for everyone is
finding the right people.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
Well, and two is you might not find them, but you
find the personality and youhelp build them.
Yes, right, so you just findthe right personality.
So, like I personally don'tlike resumes, like I look just
to see like work, history andthat, and that is that they've

(58:17):
been gainfully employed.
Honestly, like the, some of thebest people has come on to our
team and this is going to soundcrazy, but some of the best
people are people that thattheir resume was.
I was here six months a year,year and a half six months a
year.
You're not like they were, butthey're finding, they're trying
to find the right guidance andthey're in their mid-30s or

(58:38):
their late 20s and it's likethose people that come onto our
team, stay and don't leavebecause we give them that.
So I'm looking for personality.
Right, it's not because they'renot employable a lot of times.
It's not because the collegeyou know was or wasn't a thing,
it's.
You know what's theirpersonality Like?
Are they telling me the truth?
Do?

(58:59):
Are they fitting into my corevalues?
Right person, right bus, wrongseat occasionally, so you can
move the seat.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
How do you?
What are those personalitieslike?
What is the personality thatyou're looking for?

Speaker 2 (59:14):
that's a great question.
So one one is approachable.
Are they approachable?
Can you actually talk to them?
Are they?
Are they going to be open andhonest in all situations?
Listen, like, if you messsomething up, it is OK, we can
figure it out.
If you lie about it and mess itup, that's the problem, right?

(59:34):
So open and honesty, beingapproachable, just having a
positive mental attitude Right,so open and honesty, being
approachable, just having apositive mental attitude Right,
the PMA is really important inour organization.
It's like how do we always staypositive and keep moving the
ball into the future?
And so and I want problemsolvers, I want the solution

(59:55):
based sales, right, I wantsolution based people.
Like don't just come with aproblem.
So, like, learning to delegatethat.
Like well, what have you tried?
What do you think that weshould do?
Let's do that like that's howwe've solved most of our issues.
And so you want people that canstand on their own feet and
sometimes it takes time to getthem there, but it's if they

(01:00:16):
start out with a positiveattitude, they're approachable
and they're honest.
Like those are the three corethings.
Like I can work around.
You know a skills gap, it's awill gap.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
I, I think, work around we got the sure pups in
the background yeah, they're outthere in the background yeah,
yeah, to wrap this up, john,like how could you summarize
this for someone, like you know,at a high level?
You know we're talking aboutdetermining if you're ready, you

(01:00:50):
know, preparing yourself forscaling, and then the the actual
implementation of everythinginto scaling.
How how can you summarize thatfor for kind of, as you know,
for for someone as a quickaction plan?

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
Yeah.
So I would say that what wehelp people do right in in that
action plan is we help you stopguessing, we help you ID all of
the blind spots and the funnelpoints and all those things.
Let's build a real plan, like areal one-page plan, a real you
know plan to actually get there.
Um, that, that way you can growthe actual business.

(01:01:27):
And then the main thing is quitpaying, quit paying dumb tax,
right, like we've already paidthat tax.
I've already messed up enough.
Listen, so I can tell you whatfailure looks like.
And I can tell you what failurelooks like.
And I can tell you what successlooks like, right.
So success is just a bunch oflayers of failures and
eventually you finally get itright.

(01:01:48):
And I think that's where we canreally help people is know that
failure is okay, you're goingto fail, but that's okay, right,
that's just part of the growthand the personal growth.
And you know I've made a lot ofbad decisions in my life.
I made a lot of bad things in,uh, in business.
Like you know, it just happens,you know.

(01:02:08):
But like we can at least tellyou what not to do.
We might not be able to tellyou what to do, but I can tell
you what not to do, like.
I did that terrible idea, right,um, but I wouldn't just say it
that way.
It's more kind of like hey,it's like what do you think the
at what do you think this willresult in?
Right, so, if you did it thisway, if, if you don't take

(01:02:29):
action, what does this do youknow?
So it's, it's those types ofthings, man.
But yeah, like just stopguessing, man.
Like Just get your freedom back.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Don't be tired, that's awesome.
Down in the description there'sa link to Day 41.
Thrive, john, it's always apleasure man.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:02:50):
Thank you for tuning into the Roofing Success Podcast
.
For more valuable content,visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom.
Visit roofingsuccesspodcastcomWhile there, check out our
sponsors for exclusive offers,shop for merchandise and sign up
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(01:03:11):
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