This One Change Took a Roofing Company from Unknown to Unstoppable with Zac Payne

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What if your next five-star review didn't come
from doing great work, but camefrom doing and having great
communication?
For Zach Payne and the team atIcon Roofing, customer trust is
built before the first shinglecomes off.
In this episode, we're talkingabout elevating every part of
the customer journey, from thepre-job walkthroughs to post-job

(00:23):
photo reports.
From the pre-job walkthroughsto post-job photo reports.
Zach breaks down how thoughtfulsystems and clear communication
not only reduce customer issuesbut also generate referrals,
retention and repeat business.
Zach is the founder of IconRoofing in Mesa, arizona.
In just four years, he's builta thriving roofing company
focused on purpose,communication and doing right by

(00:44):
people.
A second-generation tradesmanwho started as a broke college
student pulling trailers, zachhas transformed his business by
obsessing over the customer andthe employee experience.
What sets Zach apart isn't justhis operational excellence.
It's how much he cares.
From taking new hires and theirspouses out to dinner to

(01:07):
documenting every detail of ajob in company cam, zach is
relentlessly focused on doingthe right thing for his team and
his clients, and that's exactlywhy Icon Roofing has grown
without relying heavily onmarketing.
It grows by reputation.
So if you're serious aboutbuilding a company that people

(01:28):
rave about and refer, thisepisode will give you the
playbook.
Let's jump into a conversationabout process people and doing
things the right way with ZachPayne of Icon Roofing.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alin and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your

(01:49):
roofing business.
Zach Payne, with Icon Roofing,how are you today, man?
I'm good.
How are you Good?
As this airs, it's probably alot hotter in your area.
We we're talking about, uh, offcamera, how, how nice it is
you're down in the phoenix areayeah, yeah, we're at a mesa,

(02:11):
which is a suburb of phoenix,yeah that's awesome, it's, it's
nice today it's raining, sowe're grateful it's raining.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
It's not 800 degrees and then in two days it's
supposed to be like 102 105 forthe next three months.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
So yeah, it's really trying to take advantage.
Yes, yeah, we're bracing forimpact.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yeah well, tell us a little bit about icon and your
journey into uh, into roofingyeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
So.
I started roofing in college.
So my uncle owns a roofingcompany here in the Valley and
when I was in college you know,broke college student come back
for the summers, need a job.
I grew up in the trades.
My dad owns a foreign companytried to work for him.
He didn't have enough work tokeep me busy and kind of pay the

(03:00):
bills for school and my unclehad an opening.
So I worked for him for everysummer during college and then I
just started from the bottompulling trailers and then
eventually kind of grew to be incharge of the crew and manage
the crew and then eventually Igraduated college with a
business degree and then I juststarted right into sales and

(03:22):
worked with him for eight yearsand then I tried to buy one of
his businesses because he hastwo roofing companies in the
valley and this didn't work out.
He wasn't ready to sell, whichis totally fine with me.
I was like, hey, I have my ownlicense, I'll just go do my own
thing.
And that was about four yearsago.
So I started Icon about fouryears ago, been in the industry

(03:43):
for about 12.
And it's been very, very goodto us.
We've been very blessed.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, what was?

Speaker 3 (03:53):
the initial focus for Icon.
Yeah, so I love my uncle and Isee him at all the festivities I
guess I'm on Monday forMemorial Day.
But for me there's a few thingsthat I just didn't love, that I
feel like he had the ultimatesay right.
So I was like, hey, it's fine,I'll.
Just I don't agree with that.
So when I start my own, this ishow I'd like it to be done.
And that was really the premisefor me was like he had a great

(04:17):
business, don't get me wrong.
But there are a few things Ijust didn't agree with.
Like, hey, when I start my ownthing, I want to do it how I
want it, how I'd like if I wasthe client, how I'd like it to
be created, and so that was kindof like the main thing for me,
income aside.
Like I knew we were going to beblessed either way, whether I
was running my uncle's companyor have my own.
Like I'm sure money will follow.

(04:38):
But for me it was like if I cando a really good job by my
clients and make sure they feellike they're taken care of as
I'm taking advantage of, themoney will always follow.
And then I also wanted to kindof create a culture of growth
from within, like I'm nevergoing to hire from outside, like
this big executive positionfrom outside, like I'm going to
train you from the ground up, sothat you don't have any bad

(05:03):
tendencies or bad experiencesthat are kind of ruining you for
lack of better terms.
So I kind of want to haveanybody that works for us that
feels like they're being takencare of and they feel valued and
heard and then as they growwith us, they get.
Obviously the money comes, butlike they get newer experiences
Like a lot of our guys haven'treally been in a management role

(05:26):
before and now they have beenlike they're learning new things
and some of them are you knowpain points but like they're
learning new things that theydidn't get the opportunity to at
the other job.
So it's like it's cool that aswe grow, people get new
experiences and new arrows intheir quiver for lack of better
terms.
And that's what I kind of wantto do good by our people, do

(05:47):
good by our clients.
The money will always follow,but if we do things right, it'll
also provide some really goodincome for everybody that works
with us, because now they havein a management role or in a
sales role, they can make somereally good money and give a
better life for their family, abetter work-life balance.
It's like a lot of those things.
I kind of kind of stems off ofthe main thing of like, if I do

(06:11):
really well by people, I thinkeverybody else has a cascading
effect in a good way, and sothat was kind of like my premise
of like why I want to start myown company was a lot, of a lot
of factors, but they all kind ofstem off one thing where?

Speaker 1 (06:26):
where did you get?
Where did this like mindsetcome for you?
Because it sounds like, I mean,it's you know, you, you're the
broke college kid, right?
We're just trying to, you know,pay some bills and and make it,
and then it's like it soundslike there was some.
Was there a moment that youwere like man?

(06:48):
This is like I see a bit like amuch bigger vision, like what,
what?
What happened there?

Speaker 3 (06:55):
yeah, I think when I started it, that did not come
across my mind like, hey, I wantto do my own thing you can do
right by my people.
And then as I started hiringpeople, obviously as we grew
organically and we were blessedlike people started, we needed
seats to be filled right.
So, like people that wereworking with us, they sort of
fill those seats.
And like seeing thetransformation by certain people

(07:17):
in our company going frommaking 40 000 bucks a year as a
salaried employee but workingtheir butt off it like they're
not really seeing their fullpotential or their value at all,
they're being undervalued andthen they're making you know
crazy money and then yet growinginto a position where they're
going to be managing somebody.
Like that.
To me, like it was a switch oflike we're really building

(07:37):
something cool.
And I liked that because meagain, we'll always be fine
financially, but if I can makesomebody else be in that same
situation, how much morefulfilling and enriching that is
for me to have people that workunderneath us or with us, that
they can experience that.
That was a whole mind shift forme.

(07:58):
We're really doing somethingcool.
That instead of just yeah, wemake a good paycheck, it's like
we're really doing somethingcool that will have a cascading
effect to their family and thenother kids that will grow up,
you know, having a good life asopposed to a struggling one.
Like there's a lot of thingsthat branch off of that new
mindset.
Like, yeah, we should do itright, things will come always,

(08:21):
but like building people up is areally big thing for me it's a.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
It's an amazing thing , right like that.
The your ability to have impactchanges so much, right like,
and it's pretty crazy.
So you started with what I'mhearing and correct me if I'm
wrong, but it sounds like youstarted with I want to change
the customer experience.

(08:49):
I want to provide a bettercustomer experience.
I feel like there's some gapshere.
I don't have the ability tochange things in this
environment, but, man, I reallywish my customers were served on
a higher level.
But, man, I really wish mycustomers were served on a
higher level.
You know what were some ofthose things that you saw early

(09:09):
on, like that, you were like Iwant to make sure that this
happens, you know, in theprocess.

Speaker 3 (09:15):
Yeah, with the customer yeah, a lot of it is.
You know from the trades ingeneral.
Like communication is terriblefor the most part.
So we can be bettercommunicating with our clients.
Because, like communication isterrible for the most part.
So we can be bettercommunicating with our clients
because, like a lot of times thesales process is really good,
like we'll communicate reallywell, don't be good at sale, and
then they're kind of a drop offof like no one's talking to you

(09:36):
until we show up the day wetold you we were, we would be.
It's like, oh, hey, you forgotabout us.
Like can you move your car outof the driveway so we can do our
job?
So, like we try to be very likeon top of our game with
communicating throughout thewhole process, as opposed to
like get the sale.
Then after that it's like oh, Ihope you saw that one email and
don't forget we're coming.
It's like we're trying to andalso being very upfront about

(10:06):
any like possibilities.
Like making a very realisticexpectation of hey, roofing
sucks, it's loud, it's messy, uh, it's not like a quick thing,
it's easy.
It takes a while, especially inthe valley, because we're
moving tiles and tiles is notlike shingling, you just throw
them away like we reuse themajority of our jobs.
We reuse the tiles like we justhave to move them from one side

(10:26):
of the roof to the other.
That takes time, it's like it'spretty long.
So, like planning and preppingour clients like it's gonna suck
, don't be mad.
At the end of the day it'sgonna be clean, but during the
day it's gonna look like a warzone.
So don't be mad.
And yeah, don't let your dogsout because they may step on a
nail.
And then we don't want to get avet bill saying hey, you hurt
my dog.
It's like we told you, justdon't let your dog out.

(10:47):
Or, if you do, tell us we cango down, clean up really quickly
.
And then you let your dog out,do his business and then come
back.
So like setting a reasonableand realistic expectation for us
on the sales side I think setsus up for a really good customer
experience.
Because if you don't, likethey're supposed to read that
one email you send and like,read it thoroughly.
When there's 97 little outlineitems of like cut your grass,

(11:10):
they move your car, take downwindow, uh, little picture
frames in your house becausethere might be some vibration,
you know, and then you're onyour dead grandpa's gonna fall
down.
It's like things that theydon't read.
It's like if we can tell themthat in person, on the front end
, it's usually gonna go better.
So that was another big thing,was like communications things
about expectations.

(11:30):
And then for us we do somethinga little different and I know
some people do, but a lot ofpeople don't.
We do final walkthroughs andpre-walkthroughs.
So, like, before we do the job,we have our salesperson go out,
make sure there's.
You know we document any cracksin their driveway, holes in
their stucco, a light that'sdamaged.
That we didn't do, but they'regoing to blame us if we don't

(11:50):
have photos.
And then, at the end of the job,again, even though we're
licensed and bonded and insured,the government never checks our
work.
That's what we tell our clients.
No one ever looks at roofers'work, ever.
So we take it upon ourselves togo out and make sure it's
cleaned up, that code is met.
All the jobs, all the things wesaid during the job we're going
to be done.
We're actually executed.

(12:11):
We painted the flashing, we putvents in here, like all the
things that we say we were goingto do.
If nobody checks us, like thehomeowners none the wiser until
they sell their house like, ohcrap, there's a lot of things
you didn't do right.
And it's like, well, we do thatand take it upon ourselves so
that when we do a job, ahomeless fighter can come out
and not have a million red flagsof like you did this wrong,

(12:34):
this on this wrong.
And it's like that's.
Another big thing for us ispre-walks and final walks, to
make sure that again the clientfeels like they're being taken
care of and they can feel goodabout investing so much money
because it's so expensive, youknow, and you can spend it in
far worse places, I guaranteeyou.
So if we can kind of set thatexpectation like we're really

(12:56):
good at our job we're notperfect, but we're really really
good.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Tell me a little bit more about the pre-walk and the
final walkthrough right and theexpectation set and and the
proof of x, proof of execution.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
I love that idea, yeah so it's not to be rude, a
little bit the cya, you know,cover your ass type deal of like
we didn't break your yourflowers.
They were already broken beforewe got there.
Unless we have photos to proveit, you're going to blame us and
that's again not what we wantto do, but it is what it is.
So a little bit is cya, but alot of it is like hey, we sent

(13:31):
you a series of emails and textspreparing you for this very,
very big, messy, loud project.
If you didn't read it because alot of people don't we go in
person and kind of reiterateeverything we said, like hey,
cut your grass, and it better becut short, because if you don't
cut it short we might missnails, because nails can go down

(13:52):
pretty deep and if you're threeinches thick of grass it's not
going to catch all that, andthen you're going to be mad at
us.
And so it's like we kind ofreiterate everything we talked
about yeah, cut your grass, putyour picture frames down, urns
down off the off your your easel.
Um, get your driveway cleanedout, get your stuff out of the
garage, so that you don't haveto like oh, can you move your
trailer in the middle of theproject, like no, we're using it

(14:14):
like.
So it's more like again alittle bit cya, but also just
like preparing and cleaning upthe project as much as possible
for the client's behalf so thatthere's, at the end, the least
amount of problems that couldoccur.
Possible is what the pre-walksare for cya, but also like
taking care of them and makingsure that they can have the best

(14:35):
experience possible by againexpressing anything that
possibly could happen theremight be something that falls
down.
You know, move your stuff awayfrom the house, like if you have
this very precious table that'scustom made, like maybe move it
away from the wall because thatmight come right down off the
even right on top of it, um, youknow, your little bird bath,
whatever it is.
We try to do that pre-walk oflike we'll do our job only if

(14:58):
you do your job and we kind ofphrase it that way like we can
only do it the best we can withour limited ability.
We can't make you move your car, we can't make you move your
stuff, but that's what thepre-walk is for.
I think I just kind of showedthem one more time that our face
of like we're gonna be here onmonday don't worry, we're gonna
do a good job and then go overall these little line items and

(15:19):
that kind of again just prepsthe client for the best
experience possible.
And then, yeah, during theduring the job, we have our
production manager, projectcoordinator that will
communicate with the client.
Like, hey, we ran into some badwood.
Or hey, the job is a day latebecause we started a day late,
because the rain came today,which ironically is happening
today.
It's like we're not going tostart today, we start tomorrow.
And that's communication wehave with them during the

(15:42):
project.
And then, once that's done,then we have final walkthroughs.
So, like, once the job is done,we take the trailer away, the
crew does a good cleanup, theproject corner does a good
cleanup, and then oursalesperson goes back and goes
up on the roof, takes a bunch ofphotos showing that we did all
the work, and then meets theclient and goes down there and
says, hey, you know can leave usa review.

(16:03):
Here's a us a review.
It's kind of a good time to askfor a review and referrals at
the same time.
But then again you can be like,hey, here's your photos.
We did, we'd installed the venthere.
We painted all these flashinglike, all these things again as
proof of like, don't just takeour word for it.
Here's, nobody's going to comebehind us and check out our
stuff.
I mean, when you sell the house, sure, but like, until you sell

(16:24):
the house, no one's going tolook at your roof, and so we
feel comfortable leaving aproject like this, doing it very
, almost exhaustive.
It could be better, sure, butlike, we have a pretty good
handle on it to ensure that theclient has the best experience
possible and then meet has thebest experience possible.

(16:45):
How have you?

Speaker 2 (16:46):
found the outcome of that.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
What do your clients?

Speaker 1 (16:51):
express to you because of this, compared to
working for your previouscompanies and things like that.
Before we carry on with theepisode, let's give a shout out
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(17:11):
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(17:33):
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journey today what do yourclients?
express to you because of this,compared to working for your

(17:57):
previous companies and thingslike that.
Yeah absolutely.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
uh, most of our reviews that we get are focused
on communication, like, oh, theydid a good job of communicating
, which is like again, nothingyou really hear about in the
roofing industry or the trade ingeneral.
Like, my guy can talk to me likewhat they have a voice that's
weird, so that's a big one iscommunication.
And then, like the cleanup,like we do a very good job.
We take a big magnet and weleaf blow.

(18:21):
We don't't just magnet, we usea leaf blower and blow off their
driveway, their front porch,their back porch, again make it
seem like we were never there.
So a lot of our reviews like thewording is we're very good at
explaining things, notmansplaining, but explaining
things right and doing a goodjob.
Cleaning up, communicating, um,talking us through the whole
process, taking a lot of photos,like all those things are very

(18:43):
good that we can see that we'redoing a good job because our
reviews say those exact words.
If it's bad, that's yeah,probably gonna be a bad review
with those words that areincluded.
So it's like um, so it's likeoh, hi, buddy, thank you.
Thank you for my charger.
Now I got my charger, jim, um,but um, yeah, so like we can

(19:05):
tell it's working because of theresults that we see when before
most I'm sure you've seen mostcomplaints are about
communication, cleanup, um, theydidn't show up on time or ever.
They didn't take any photos, sowe have no proof to show our
insurance.
Hey, this ply was rotted andlike, well, here's a photo to
prove it.
Like, oh no, they trust me.
Like no, I'm gonna trust you.
You guys are the worst industrybad rep, right.

(19:28):
So, like that's right, it kindof the results speak for
themselves because we feel likewe're doing again the best job
we can and those are pretty good, almost immediate results of us
doing the best we can.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, and it's that like I say it all the time, zach
, if you listen to the show andit's if your customers are
wondering and you're losing,yeah, like that's the to me.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
That's like that summarizes that customer
experience like if?
They're wondering and you'relosing, yeah, and and not that
they go to some dark every timethey go to dark places right?

Speaker 3 (20:06):
Did I pick a bad person?
Did I pick a bad contractor?
Are they going to do my jobright?
Are they going to finish ontime?
They're going to be on budget.
All these dark holes they gointo.
That's not a good place foryour clients.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
Exactly, and it's not just in our industry.
Right, it's in every industry,and it's not just in our
industry right.
It's in every industry.
An example of this was in mylife.
Recently, my wife had footsurgery and a knee surgery Not a
full knee surgery, but I don'tknow what to call it a scope or
something During the knee.

(20:40):
We'll call it a knee surgery.
During the knee.
We'll call it a knee surgery.
During the knee surgery, one ofthe members of the surgical
team screwed up and sent hersome information that was out of
line with expectations, talkingabout the recovery time and all
this different stuff, and thenso she called in to see you know

(21:00):
, hey, what like wait, I thoughtit was this and now you're
telling me that and then fromthat moment and then meet.
The lack of trust in thatprocess was crazy.
Yes, gone right like, and thenshe had foot surgery yeah, and
then she she recently had footsurgery and the and then meet
that team and that surgical teamand the staff on that team.

(21:25):
My goodness, they werephenomenal.
Phenomenal On top of it,calling you know before and
after making sure, everythingyou know and you know if there
was.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
Okay, you're here and doing this.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
Okay, now let's adjust this and do that, and,
like they were just veryreassured of like you're doing.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
You're doing what you're supposed to do, right,
and of course we're not doctors.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
You feel far more reassured of like you're doing
what you're supposed to do Farmore reassured right, and of
course we're not doctors, butit's just that comfort level
that people feel through thatlevel of communication,
absolutely.
As you have built this, I'msure that there's been multiple

(22:05):
iterations of it and I'm surethat it continues to iterate.
Like you had mentioned, you'realways trying to get better at
it.
Absolutely, if you had to startthis process over, or you
started a new company or forsomeone listening?
what are the high points?
Make sure this, add this andit's like make here's your 8 out

(22:29):
of 10.
Add these things and you're ata 10 out of 10.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
Yeah, yeah, I would say it starts from the sales
perspective.
Like if you don't set up arealistic expectation of like
going through any possibleproblem or anything you can run
into, most people don't theylike to like just not talk about
it and hope it never comes up,right, and it's like that's not
going to be helpful.
Because if it does happen likewell, you didn't tell me I was

(22:53):
going to maybe run into this,like I told you, but like if
they don't tell them that'sproblems, like I feel like from
the very beginning, setting theexpectation of a, of a
salesperson, of like educatingthem and telling them what could
, what could go wrong or whatcould go down, and then taking
really, really good photos, likewe like to say we're
photographers that do roofing onthe side, like all you are like

(23:15):
that's all you do is just takephotos, like constantly.
I love that and the more photosyou take the better, the that
you can show an insurancecompany or a buyer of a property
because they want to make sureyou did it right.
All those things taking gooddocumentation CompanyCam shout
out to them.
They're great.
They easily help put it all inone place and you share the link

(23:38):
if you want to.
Some people don't like to sharethe link because it's
incriminating sometimes to showthings like, hey, we don't care,
they're all your photos, it'syour job anyway.
So that would be a big one.
And then, yeah, I think,pre-walks and final walks just
to ensure that it got done rightand that your client is
actually happy, instead of like,oh, hey, we got the job done.
Jose took the trailer away.
Can you give us a five-starreview?

(24:00):
It's like, no, I hated you guys.
You guys didn't even ask me ifI liked you.
It's like, well, we'd make surewe go a couple times like do
you still like us?
Did we do a good job?
Did we earn like a referral outof you?
We refer or view out of you.
And again, it's just moretouching points.
Besides the sales, liketransaction at the beginning.
It ensures like a bettercustomer experience, which is

(24:21):
what's we're we're trying toalways improve on is making that
customer experience that muchbetter.
I'd say those are like thethree things that I would say is
like a big deal that made us gofrom like an okay contractor,
like oh, we get referred a lotin this.
Most of our business comes fromrepeat business, referrals and
and you know, almost nevermarketing, because we don't

(24:43):
really spend that much onmarketing right now, and it's
like that's what's made us intowho we are, like we're really
good and we know that and thisis how we can show you.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, and that's what really I mean.
What is overlooked in thereferral aspect is that referral
aspect is that's that like ifyou provide a good customer
experience, you create ravingfans, that's who then refer you.
Yeah, that's it.
But if, if it happens along theway where they're wondering,

(25:17):
that's what, that's what youlose, that you lose all of those
referrals.
Yeah, yeah, all of thereferrals.
You lose them all.
You don't know how many therewere yeah, you actually made
people pissed off.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
You didn't even know about you like oh cool, they
suck.
It's like well, you know weexist now you know we exist and
you're not going to use this.
It's like it's worse thanbefore and you're not.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah, that's right like it's a it's a it's a
terrible that's it's a terriblething, but optimizing that
customer experience man that is.
I love that.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
Then you found, then you got to a point where the
business is growing and yourteam is growing and you need
some people in managementpositions and you need some
people to step up.
And this other aha moment cameright.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
How have you built your employee journey, your
employee experience, your teamexperience?
Have you thought about it inthe same way that you've done
your customer experience, howyou know?
What are your thoughts on howyou built your team?

Speaker 3 (26:30):
Yeah, again a lot of growing pains where you're like,
oh crap, I should have donethat last time, but it's okay,
now going forward, they're goingto have much better experience
than last time.
So, like good people are goingto stick around, right, but like
if they weren't a good fit,they're going to make it very
known.
It's like you're just not goingto make it here, you know,
we'll just amicably part ways.
But like I think a lot of it isthe training.

(26:53):
We don't have a super detailedlike training manual,
unfortunately yet, so we'll workon that.
But like overall, trying toteach everybody what they could
possibly need, from start tofinish, and then not just, okay,
see you later, good luck, I'llsee you next year.
Like we have a sales meetingevery monday, we have production
meetings every wednesdays, likeall those are very important to

(27:16):
have, so that it's justcontinual education, learning,
as opposed to like, oh, youwrote about the guy for six days
and then I never saw him againand I'm on my own now.
So we don't think that's verygood.
So we try to again continueeducation but also doing as best
as we can on the training side,right out the gate to.

(27:36):
You know, we're roofers, so wecould talk roof talk all the
time, but like if you meet alady or even a guy, they
probably don't know roofingbecause they're not in the,
they're not in the industry oreven in the trades at all, they
are in IT.
It's like you won't knowroofing if you're in IT.
So we kind of have to startfrom the very basics of like
it's what a roof is, this iswhat is wrong with the roof.
We got to do it right.

(27:57):
So training our people to likestart from the very beginning
like you're a child, because youare In the roofing knowledge,
you are a child.
You have to teach them like afive year old and I got you know
four kids that bless theirhearts, they're, they're
learning.
You got to treat them like thatbecause that no one knows and
you can use all these big termsthat they're gonna.
Just, I'm an electrician.

(28:18):
Last week talked my wife likeshe was an electrician.
She's like I was so mad becauseI not understand one word he
talked to me about.
I'm like that's what we try toavoid.
I don't know what electricalcrap is.
It's not my job.
If I'm a roofer, I'm going toteach you what roofing is.
Enough to be dangerous.
I'm not going to bore you toomuch, but I'm going to tell you
the most important stuff so thatyou don't make a wrong decision

(28:39):
.
That, for me, is like trainingand and bringing people on like
you know the basics, so that youcan educate people on the
basics, so that you're alreadygoing to be leaps and bounds
better off than when before youmet us.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
That's what.
That's what.
That's what that's what.
That's what.
That's what.
You can get overly technicalreally quick, for sure that's um
we forget that that's whatthat's, what that's that's we
forget this stuff when we're init every day.
That's what.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
That's what right if you're talking about just to
share the love target becauseit's it's right at the point
like, oh, this is what's wrong.
It's like, if you're not, ifyou're not in the roofing
industry, yeah, the more dumbeddown, the more basic it is, the
the better you're going to befor sure how have you determined
who is the the person to move?

Speaker 1 (29:26):
into one of these management roles, or how have
people shown you that they'reready for the next level of
development?

Speaker 3 (29:35):
Yeah, Again, learning curves.
Sometimes we thought they werethe right fit and it just wasn't
right.
Right, but a lot of people thatwe've had, you just kind of
look beyond them as a as anemployee, but like as a person,
do they have the right mentalityof like teacher first type
mentality and servant mentality,as opposed to like I'm gonna be

(29:56):
a dictator and you do what Itell you, to it's like well,
that's not gonna work very goodfor some people maybe, but for
most people they don't like tobe dictated, they like to be
educated and grabbed by the handand say, hey, this is how you
do it, or let me show you so youcan watch how I do it, and then
you just copy and paste on thenext one, right?
I kind of view the person asmore in-depth as compared to

(30:20):
what their work experience is ortheir technical skills are now.
Like I can teach you how toroof that's not hard.
I can teach you how to, how tosell or how to propose something
.
But like I can't teach you tobe a good person, I can't teach
you to have integrity, I can'tteach you to want to educate
somebody about something.
So like, hey, europe's 20 grandmoney please Like that's not
going to work.
You have to tell them why it'sgonna be 20 grand to do a new

(30:48):
roof.
The person behind you know theshirt is what really matters to
me, because that will help medecide.
Are you in there for the longhaul?
Can you be a servant leadershiptype person which we want in
our company?
And then, yes, as they start togrow, are they on track to be
somebody that I would feelcomfortable managing somebody?
Are they going to be a jerk ifsomebody screws up?
Like no, be very reasonable.
We're humans, right, we'regoing to screw up.

(31:09):
But how you react when somebodyscrews up, I feel like is huge,
because you could really thinkthey're, like you said, their
trust or their ownself-confidence.
If you say, hey, you're theworst human that's ever lived,
that's not going to help them bebetter.
You're the worst human that'sever lived.
That's not going to help thembe better.
Like, hey, you did bad thing,it's fine, we can work with it,
just try this better next time.
And if that person's alreadylike a abrasive person, they're

(31:35):
not going to be that managermaterial that we want.
But if they're like, hey, man,I get it.
I was in there.
I was in that position too.
I screwed up.
I hit a trailer one time Likethat was my fault.
I went up to it.
It's like if you're areasonable and a good human
being, you're probably going tomake it, make it work, as long
as you're a hard worker as well.
There's those two elements thathave to meet together.
But, like it really is, theperson I look for is are you,

(31:57):
could you be a manager?
Not are you one now, but couldyou become a manager and a
leader of of men and women?
That's important to me.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
So what I'm hearing is you get to observe them over
time on the team.
Yes, there's time on the teamand you're observing.
How are they interacting inthis situation?
How are they interacting inthat situation?
How do they receive feedback?
How do they receive feedbackand how do they receive?

(32:27):
Did you do something about it?

Speaker 3 (32:29):
he's like oh yeah I got you, I got you dog.
Like did you actually?
Like, yeah, I didn't like itbetter, because I can see if you
didn't do it right.
It's not very hard.
Yeah, so we also have quarterlyreview.
That's something that we Inever had at any of my companies
before is an actual review on aquarterly basis.
Even the annual basis wouldhave been great.
I said, like hey, here's yourbonus for the court or for the
year, and it's like 500 bucksLike cool, thanks, man.

(32:49):
But like hey, on a quarterlybasis, this is what you did
Great, this is what you could beproven and it's not your fault
because you didn't know thathaving a pretty routine
performance feedback of likeyou're doing great, dude, keep
it up or you're not, you're notdoing terrible.
There's some things you canwork on, of course, just like we

(33:10):
all can, but like knowing that,instead of once a year or even
never, like I just don't see howyou can improve as a, as a
professional employee or as aprofessional in general, if
you're not getting feedbackconstantly and having something
to work towards.
Like of course, you're going tobe stagnant and bored and burnt
out because I have nothing towork for and look forward to

(33:33):
yeah, it's a it you there's,there's definitely the right
person.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
And now what do you do if, like I guess, how have
you dealt dealt with people whoare not the right people?
I would assume that you've hada couple now in the four years
that you've had Icon.
Yeah, you know what do you?
You know what.
How do you manage that?
How do you?
How do you not just throw upyour hands and go and no one

(34:00):
does what they're supposed to do?
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(34:24):
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(34:47):
Your full AI team is ready.
How do you not just throw upyour hands and go and no one
does what they're supposed to do?

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:02):
It's hard, I feel like people are tricky.
You know like they'll.
They'll tell you whatever youwant to hear in an interview,
and I do lots of interviews withevery person, just because one
interaction is not good enough.
So, like, the more times youmeet with them, the more like
you can actually see thepersonality and the person in
general.
So some people are tricky andagain when I was first starting
out I was like hey, you'rehigher, let's do it now.

(35:24):
It's like hey, there's a lot,there's no shortage of humans,
there's billions of us, right.
So it's like you just gottafind the right person.
There's billions of us tochoose from.
In america there's not as manybillions as like asia, but like
there's a lot of us here.
You just aren't picking theright people and that's's on you
.
Like I have to own that as theowner.

(35:45):
That's on me.
If the people aren't on our bus, that's on me, and that there's
no one else to blame.
It's not because they're notthe right applicant out there or
right fit for us out there, butbecause we didn't hire or do
our due diligence of looking forthe right person.
That's on me and I have to ownthat if that person screws up or
they don't work out it.
You know that happens if wekind of let people go and, uh,

(36:09):
what is the this thing?
It's um, firing is knowing,hiring is guessing, and it's
like hiring is guessing, firingis knowing, and it's like I know
exactly when you're not theright fit because you I gave you
lots of opportunities.
but it's like when you hire youtry to make the best educated
guess on it and as I've had moreinterviews and had more people

(36:31):
work with us, like you start torealize like it's not their past
experiences who they are as aperson.
Are they teachable?
Do they take feedback?
Well, are they going to workhard?
Are they going to be haveintegrity?
Are they going to work hard?

(36:55):
Are they going to be, you know,have integrity?
Are they going to be a goodperson?
At the end of the day, I canwork with that individual and
the more you know that person onan informed like hey, this is
who we are.
Like I'm a person, you're aperson, my wife's a person, your
wife's a person or yourhusband's a person, like that's
a little unorthodox, but like Ilike it because you are part of

(37:17):
the family as much as you youdon't want to say it like your,
your significant other is justas much part of our business as
you are.
Because if they don't like whereyou work or they're not
supportive of you, you're notgonna be able to function at
your prime because you'reworried about?
Are you staying out latebecause you have to work late,
as your, as your spouse can bepissed off when you get home,

(37:37):
when it's after hours and it'slike.
So we try to get the spouseinvolved because, as much as it
hurts to say like they are partof our work family, very much so
, and we don't want to be likeoh yeah, who's your boss, like I
don't know some bald dudethat's ugly and, you know, has a
weird voice, like that doesn'thelp.
But if we can get a goodrapport with them, like hey,

(37:57):
this is who we are, hope youlike it.
If not, it's fine, it's it'sfine.
It's not the right fit, it'sfine.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
but then we try to do events during the year as well,
to kind of again get somecamaraderie and that family
feeling in an industry that is alittle bit cutthroat sometimes,
so we try to do that unorthodoxapproach sometimes.
That's awesome.
How have you developed?
You said you're doing multipleinterviews.
Now You're doing the dinners.
My friend, terry Gualti, talkedabout that on the podcast
before.
That's one of his kind offundamental things that he does

(38:35):
in his company.
You know, where did you?
How have you gone aboutdeveloping a hiring skill set?

Speaker 3 (38:45):
Yeah, I've learned to ask better questions as I've
gotten older.
I'm 33, but when I started Iwas 28.
And I'm sorry, 29.
I can't do math.
I didn't really ask the bestquestions when I was hiring.
And as I've gotten older, I'mlike, hey, why don't I start

(39:06):
writing the same questions foreach person and then I write
down, I type it all down howthey respond and then I go back
after the interview is done,like, hey, how did that person
respond?
Did they actually answer thequestion or did they kind of
skate around it by answeringtheir own way that they thought
was clever?
And it's like you didn't answerall that question, bless it.

(39:28):
By answering their own way thatthey thought was clever.
It's like you didn't answer allthat question.
Bless your heart.
But like that was not all whatI asked.
So I was like, can you actuallyanswer a question?
Good, um, and then again I wasapologized beforehand, like I'm
gonna take notes.
I'm not, I'm not not listeningto you, I'm just typing.
And every person I meet with Itake very good notes of like how
they are, how they respond andanswering the same questions.
Everybody kind of gets over thesame baseline of like I asked
the same question.
They answered it completelydifferent, in a good way or a

(39:50):
bad way.
So I think the answer and thequestion that mostly writing
down their answers is what'sbeen really helpful to me is
technology is amazing.
I did a lot of interviews overover the internet like like a
zoom call or indeed whateverit's called.
So great because they don'thave to come in, I don't have to

(40:11):
, you know, coordinate myschedule, like be here for an
hour and hope they show up, toalso agree, if they don't show
up because I didn't have to goto the office, make sure that
they were there it's like, hey,if they don't show up, it's fine
.
I didn't really no sweat off mybrow, but technology is awesome
.
So I do a lot of videointerviews and then I bring them
in and then, yeah, the laststep is I got the idea from dave
ramsey actually, where he takesthe spouse out and his spouse

(40:33):
yeah to dinner, and I was likethat's a good idea, I should do
that.
It's a little unorthodox, butlike it helps me.
That gets them out of theirprofessional, weird, um, you
know, corporate world of likehey, we're all people, man.
Like the more you understandthat we're all people, we all
just want to have a good lifeand be good people like the
better you're going to be.
So I think for me has beendocumenting the interviews, um,

(40:57):
writing down good questions andthen just kind of evaluating.
We have hundreds of applicants.
It's like how am I supposed togo through all these people?
And it's just like doing itvery slowly, methodically and
it's it takes a while, but it'sso worth it to go through
hundreds of people to pick theright one.
It's like I felt good aboutthis.
Again, it's not a guarantee,because every it's not a

(41:20):
guarantee, but like you can feel, like you did your due
diligence the best as possible.
That's how I felt like as aninterviewer.
I have grown and learned.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, it's much different than I always say.
This too is early on, likewe're almost hiring assistants,
not people that own the role.
Right, we're just.
We just need someone to help,right, and we need them now.
So we hire versus recruit and Ithink the difference is hiring

(41:55):
is like fast now need,recruiting is finding, is
sorting through the pile andfinding that person who has a
higher probability of workingout in that role and owning that
role Right.
Um, I think that's awesome.
Man, that's great, as you've,as you've gone along.

(42:17):
You started, I know you'remostly residential still but
you've started this journey downthe multif-family path.
What's what?
What kicked that off?

Speaker 3 (42:29):
honestly, I don't know how the market is in
minneapolis but, like here inthe valley, there's a lot of
apartment complexes and condocomplexes and downhomes and they
all share a roof, which meansthat nobody owns their roof,
because how do you determinewho's sally's and who's sues?
So it's all covered by the hoa.
So, like there's the hoa aspectand there's, like the the you

(42:50):
know the manager of the propertyum aspect.
And as I've been in theindustry for almost a dozen
years now, you just learn thatthere's a lot of.
I also love it because a lotless people to deal with.
Jim, because you know you dothis big project, you only deal
with like one manager or oneboard and the board can be a few

(43:10):
people, but like overall, youdon't have to deal with this one
person.
This is their pride and joy,it's their house, it's their
roses that you're going todamage and it's like those are
the people we try to avoid.
And if you're in the multiamilyside, it's like it's less to
deal with and it's it'stransactional.
It's not like your feelings areinvolved because it's their job
, it's not like it's their house, like hey, do a good job, do it

(43:34):
right, clean up, be nice,that's all I care about.
So like, oh, you have to dothis, my dog wakes up at six by
601 and it's like all thesethings, you have to deal with it
.
It just is so obnoxioussometimes and as we've gotten
more multifamily projects, it'slike this is what we really like
and if we can ramp up and domore of this, I'd be tickled
pink.

(43:54):
Because residential is great,it's what pays the bills and we
love it.
But also there's aspects wedon't love about it and we could
do more multifamily side and sowe've been very blessed on both
ends.
But, like, we are very orientedand focusing on all that family
side for that exact reason,because there's a lot of
communities out there, probablymore than you can count um, but

(44:18):
again, it's usually a moreseamless project.
Um, commercial same thing youhave one person you deal with,
that's it.
You don't ever talk to thetenants or have to deal with
anything.
You just make sure one person'shappy and then you move on um,
and residential is a little bitdifferent.
So we, we really like themulti-family side and, yeah,
sometimes the projects aremassive, but, like, overall it's

(44:39):
far and away much easier of aprocess.
We tell them something and ifthey don't tell their tenant
it's their fault.
I told you you're supposed totell them and it's like sorry,
we're not legal to talk to you,tenant, because we only work for
the manager.
So again it kind of gets us outof a lot of the problems we
deal with of like, hey, can youcome look at this inside or can
you replace my light bulb?

(44:59):
It's like I didn't want to behere.
It it's in the roots.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not.
It is a much more transactionaltype of relationship right, it's
much more of a businessrelationship.
What?

Speaker 1 (45:13):
were some of your inroads into multifamily.
How did you get your firstproject?
How did you start to get?
Your second, third, fourth, howhave you gotten, how have you
started down the businessdevelopment side of the
multifamily?

Speaker 3 (45:29):
Yeah, absolutely so.
There's a different way.
There's residential propertymanagement where it's like you
have a rental property andthere's a multifamily side.
We used to do a lot of theresidential side, but then most
people are like it's a rentalproperty, I don't care, just get
it done as cheaply as possible.
It's like, well, that'scertainly our clientele, we
don't.

(45:49):
We do more of a good job thanlike a cheap job.
So we we focus more on themulti-family side because people
live there and they want toinvest money in like a good roof
, because they live therefull-time, so the board or the
hoa in general will choose agood roofer because they're
they're going to live underneaththat roof too.
And so, learning that there'scommunity managers and property
managers out there and a lot oftimes it just was a referral

(46:12):
like hey, my friend does managethis property, can you look at
it?
Sure, great, then we get inwith them and they manage if you
have more property.
So it's kind of like this hugetree that goes unnoticed or
undeveloped a lot.
So it's like I think I've heardyou say before like the really
good contractors take one jobinto many and that's really

(46:32):
problematic as well, likethere's so many properties out
there in any in any market.
I'm sure texas is slammed,california obviously has a
million, and it's really.
You don't really grasp thegravity of the influence you
could have until you just start.
And you just start toeventually develop and get into

(46:54):
more managers, more communities,more associations, and then
it's just like the thing.
Just you know you taught aperson how to fish, as opposed
to give them a fish every oncein a while, like you know how to
do things.
Now, business development isstill tricky because there's a
gatekeeper you can't get past.
Sometimes you have to get an inwith somebody to get past that

(47:16):
gatekeeper.
But once you do, it's like youknow there really is a sky.
It's endless.
The sky's the limit and it it's.
We always say we're blessed tobe here, of course, but there's
so much work to be had.
I don't really view anybody'scompetition because my I'm my
own competition, like if I screwup, I screwed up, it's not
because that guy beat me, it'sbecause I screwed up, and

(47:37):
there's so much work to be hadthat I think we have a scarcity
mindset.
Sometimes it's like no, there'sagain, there's again.
There's billions of people,there's billions of properties
that need roofs and homes thatneed roofs and it's like you
just don't think of that a lotof times because you're all
about the next sale and it'sreally about how can you make
that person love you, to giveyou lots more.

(47:59):
And instead of just this onesale, think about their
neighbors, their friends, theirfamily.
They may have properties thatthey manage because they're
wealthy.
They got a property up north.
We love going up north becauseit's not 800 degrees up north
and it's like it's great and, aswe've grown and learned, like
there's.
You just got to start and thenbe consistent with it.
Once you stop being consistent,all your hard work is basically

(48:22):
gone because you didn't keepfeeding that flower and that's
going to wither away and dieunless you keep watering it.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
That's it.
You've really developed along-term mindset.
It sounds like You're not in anabundance mindset because, my
goodness, there's a lot of workout there.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
There is Fundance mindset because, my goodness,
there's a lot of work out there,like down in the Phoenix area.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
I don't know how many thousands of contractors there
are, but there's a few thousandright, like you know.
You know, I think the number inDallas is like six or 8,000.
I would guess Minneapolis isfour or five, like I'm sure
Phoenix is probably similar fouror five, 6,000.
Like there's a lot of work tobe done, yeah a lot of.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
There's a lot of chucking trucks, a lot of jose's
and hose bees that don't do thebest work and it's like, hey,
man, it's fine, but there is a.
There's a very good opportunityfor a good contractor to do a
good job and stand behind theirwork absolutely even reputable
ones, I hear about all the time.
They just don't show up after awarranty call and then it's
like dude, like how are yousupposed to stay in business
when this is your job?

(49:27):
You screwed up and we're outhere fixing it for money and
it's like I just don'tunderstand it.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
I don't get it either , man.
It blows me away sometimes.
Just be a good person it's Imean that it's pretty simple,
right it's pretty simple, rightit's pretty simple you like to
believe, so Be a good person.
Yeah, how have you thoughtabout the customer experience
from the multifamily level right?

(49:53):
What type of communicationrhythm have you found keeps them
from wondering in that type ofrelationship versus the
homeowner relationship?

Speaker 2 (50:13):
I know you're enjoying the episode, but let's
give a shout out to another oneof our sponsors versus the
homeowner relationship.
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Speaker 1 (50:34):
What type of communication rhythm have you
found is, you know, keeps themfrom wondering in that type of
relationship versus thehomeowner relationship?

Speaker 3 (50:45):
yeah, we have it really doesn't change much.
The wording changes becauseit's not like we don't need to
move your, we don't need to, youknow, cut your grass because,
like you have propertymanagement company that manages
the landscape right, so we don'tput that in there.
Um, and a lot of things are alittle bit different, but for
the most part we treat them as anormal residential client
because they have the same stepsand processes of hey, we're

(51:07):
going to do your job, it's goingto be noisy, it's going to be
loud, um, or it's going to bemessy, uh, we're going to be on
this day, this time.
It's going to expect this manydays to do it, and we kind of
treat it just like residential,just a little bit different, but
for the most part it's theexact same, because the more the
manager knows, or the H-Wayboard knows, the better you're
going to be off, because thenthey can tell their tenants who,

(51:29):
by the way, really pay for thisthing.
We get the check from oneperson, but really it's the
whole community that pays for it.
So it's like if we pisseverybody off over here and we
make this person happy, theyprobably won't like us very long
.
So it's like if they, we do ourjob here, they can relate
everything to these people, whoare hundreds and thousands of
people.
That's good if we can tell them.

(51:51):
To tell them, we're gonna bemuch, much better off, and I
think that's what misses.
A lot is like okay, we got ajob, let's go do it.
It's like you need to tell themanager or the hoa so they can
tell everybody else don't, don'tleave stuff out, it's going to
be noisy.
Maybe don't work from home thatday, work at a coffee shop that
day, because it's going to beloud enough where you're going

(52:12):
to be pissed off that you can'thear your boss talking because
we're banging so loud it happens.
So the more we can prep theboard and the manager to prep
them, I think is something thatagain, for us, has helped a lot
getting out of a lot of theseproblems of like, oh no, we got
to go right now and go do thisbecause they didn't know about
it.
It's like, hey, we told themand we'll still be nice about it

(52:32):
, but if the managers didn't dotheir job, you know that's not
our fault.
But if we don't do our job,telling them about it, that's
absolutely on us and that'ssomething that we need to take
internally very hard, becauseyou know again, in a very long
way of answering it.
It's very similar.
It's a little bit different withthe wording and certain things

(52:54):
you do need to include.
Like, hey, there's going to bea trailer in your property for a
long time because it is a bigjob, it's going to be moving
around, sure, but like there'sgoing to be this big black thing
with our logo on it for a verylong time, so don't park in
front of it please.
All these dumb things that youwould think are common sense.
But it's like, just in case,we're just going to include it

(53:14):
in this email and when we callthe manager we're going to tell
them that, just to be safe,because we don't want to have
any problems.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
That's right.
So there's a, there's like akind of an analogy or saying
that, like, where, like, ifsomeone becomes a millionaire
and they go broke, that thatthey can come they, that they
can bounce back really fastbecause of all the lessons that
they learned along the way ofthe what, the personal
development that happened inbecoming that that, or in in

(53:41):
achieving that financial statusright or that financial, in that
financial achievement.
If, if everything went awaytoday, zach and you had to start
over from scratch, what wouldbe the like, what would be the
game plan, what would be thecore focus?

Speaker 3 (54:00):
I would say there's two things.
The first one would be focusedon getting good people on your
team, because that's who reallyis your company, are the people
that work with you.
So don't worry about theexperience or their skills, but
the person in general.
Are they a good person?
Start with that so that you canbuild a good foundation of.
You know, sales will alwayscome, but you can't always have

(54:23):
good people if they weren'tthere from the beginning.
If they're good people, theyshould be even better people
down the road, because you knowmoney corrupts people.
But if they were already goodpeople, money doesn't corrupt
them, they just do morephilanthropic things with it.
So I'd say the first thing isgood people and the second thing
is think of the customerexperience and making that as
best as possible, because almosteverything is based on this one

(54:48):
or this one.
I feel like I could be wrong,but like if it's the person that
you, that you that works withyou and then the service you
provide, everything else kind ofbranches off of that.
So if you make this as best aspossible, I think that's what
really separates you fromanybody else is, if this is my
house and it was being replaceda roof on today.
What would I want it to be like?

(55:09):
And think of it from theirperspective and making as best
of experience as possible.
That way you get referrals,reviews, repeat business, like
everything kind of feeds eachother if you have good people
doing the job and then youprovide a good service and a
good experience.
I think that would be if I wereto start over.
What I'd focus on is like goodpeople, good service and a good

(55:33):
experience, and then everythingelse kind of takes care of
itself.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
That's right.
Everything else will fall intoplace, zach.
It's been awesome.
Thanks for your time today, man.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning into theRoofing Success Podcast.
For more valuable content,visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom
While there, check out oursponsors for exclusive offers,

(55:58):
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(56:18):
insights.
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