You Can’t Build a Scalable Roofing Company Alone with Andy Keys

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
When you start to document what you know, then you
can pass it to other people.
If you're the only one thatknows how to do something in the
company, it's a problem.
And I'm still backtracking incertain things.
I'm building out some customtools right now that I'm the
only one that knows what theyare, but as soon as they're
built, I'm gonna have to trainmy whole team on what they are,
how to use it, how to edit it,because you become the

(00:20):
bottleneck when you're the onlyone that knows something.
Google Analytics don't meananything.
It's how many people do weactually get in the home for.
And then I just look at returnon ad spend as how much do we
spend on this channel versus howmuch gross profit do we earn
from that channel?
So it's not revenue from yourmarketing channel, it's gross
profit.
You can get into customeracquisition costs, you can get

(00:42):
into all sorts of stuff.
But the the big ones for me isqualified appointments and
return on ad spend looking atgross profit, not revenue.
If you're building a team andyou're building a business and
you've got big ambitions,because like I'll talk to guys
that don't want a hundredmillion dollar roostic company
and they've got one otheremployee.
Uh, and then if that's what youwant, why are you outsourcing

(01:04):
your books?
Why are you outsourcing yourcall center?
Why are you outsourcing allthese things?
Because you're not going to getanywhere unless you build a
team.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
Welcome to the Roofing Success Podcast.
I'm Jim Aline, and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
roofing business.
Andy Keys, it's been a while.
What's up, Jim?
How are you, man?
Good, man.
Good.
Thanks for having me.
The last conversation we had, Ithink was in like 2021, live on

(01:34):
air, right?
And and we got to talk about alot of cool things.
Uh at that time, I think you youmight have just surpassed the
five million dollar mark in yourbusiness, just had a small team.
You're, you know, you're justkind of building this thing,
right?
Just building it.
It years have passed now, andand and you've been doing lots

(01:56):
of cool things.
I keep hearing your name in theindustry from different people.
And I was like, man, let's havehim back on.
Let's have a anotherconversation and get some of the
lessons that that that have beenlearned in the in the in the you
know over the last few yearssince the last conversation.
So for people that don't knowyou, just let's do a little
recap, man.
How you know how'd you get intoroofing?
How'd you start Foxhaven?

SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
Yeah, uh, name's Andy.
Grew up in Philadelphia, uh, waskind of a punk kid, like a lot
of us that end up in roofing.
Uh, my dad had a roofingcompany, never wanted me to be a
roofer, wanted me to do somecorporate sales job, climb the
corporate ladder.
Uh, but just a lot of drugs, alot of just a bad kid.
So I would always end up roofingfor my dad because things didn't

(02:37):
work out.
Um, eventually the drugs got badenough where I was in and out of
rehabs.
So I ended up in Florida as arehab kid, which is pretty
common uh in the part of Floridathat I'm in.
A lot of rehabs around here.
Um got out of my last rehab,living in a halfway house,
needed to make money, startedroofing, uh, and that was it.
Uh kind of roofed as asubcontractor for like a year,

(02:58):
year and a half before I startedmy business.
Uh, and that's where it allstarted.

SPEAKER_02 (03:02):
Yeah, man.
So 2021, you know, what whatyear did you start Foxhaven
then?

SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Uh the end of 2018.
So 2019 was my first full year.
Got it.

SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
Um the business has been maturing, right?
You're starting to cross thesethresholds.
What have been what have beensome of the memorable milestones
to you along the way?

SPEAKER_00 (03:32):
I guess when you say that, like memorable milestones,
and I don't have a great memoryfor when things happen.
I just kind of am in the zoneand just working.
So like it's a blur, but I doremember my revenue for every
year.
That's kind of like themilestones I can think of.
But when I think about like800,000, 2 million, 5 million,
11, 15, this year looks like 25.

(03:55):
I can tell you what I wasfocused on in those years, and I
know it was different everysingle year.
And I think that's why we'venever stopped growing because my
day-to-day and my headspacechanged every single year in the
business.
So at 5 million, I was the guyselling like 90% of the revenue,
um, still kind of touching everyarea of the business.

(04:17):
And then the jump to 11, Istarted to learn how to train
salespeople.
And at the end of that year, Iwas finally 100% out of sales
because now I had a sales team.
Uh, and then the following yearit was more on okay, we're
making sales.
Now, how do we produce all thisat a higher volume without the
whole business falling apart?
So then you get into systems,building a real production

(04:38):
department where salespeople candrop a contract off, production
can take it from here, andsalespeople can go sell more.
Um, and then this year we've hadmore going on than I've ever had
going on.
Uh really leveling up in themarketing.
Uh, we always built a greatbrand, but I've never, we've
never done a good job at like wepay this much for this lead

(05:01):
source and it brings us thismuch ROI.
Uh, we never really made PPC apredominant lead source for us.
We've done that this year.
Uh, we've never handledretargeting in a way that uh we
could be.
So, like when you visit awebsite and then that company
never leaves you alone again,we've now mastered how to do
that.
Uh so we have all ourretargeting audiences set up.

(05:23):
Um, and then just the thesoftware, the tools, the AI, all
that stuff going on this year tokind of make the jump to the
next level.
So because everythingeverything's changed on what
I've been working on year afteryear, I think that's why we've
never hit a ceiling.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (05:36):
And that's what that's what you have to do.
I uh from a from a coachingaspect, I do coaching and uh and
and it's one of the things as acoach for me is is to help a
business find the next rightthing to do.
And it and it feels like that'show you just keep you just keep
going.
So you you get you get throughthis thing this year.
Well, maybe a year is a goodmilestone.

(05:58):
All right, we did this thisyear, right?
We we built the sales team.
Now we have the now we're on tothe next right thing to do is to
build out that production, theproduction team, the production
systems, all the all the SOPsfor that, build that process
out.
Well, okay, now what's the nextright thing?
Oh, now we have an exceptionalproduction team.
We have an exceptional salesteam.

(06:19):
Now, how do we pour gas on it?
Right now, let's build themarketing funnel.
Let's let let's really improveour marketing.
So it feels like you've beendoing the next right thing in
your business.
How have you, how does that howhave you determined what the
next right thing is?

SPEAKER_00 (06:35):
Usually just paint, just uh things not going right.
So, like um getting myself outof sales, it's like I'm still
trying to run sales.
I can't imagine growing thebusiness if I was to remove my
sales revenue from the business.
But then it's like you'rerunning appointments and then
everything else is falling apartover here because you know you

(06:56):
shouldn't be runningappointments every day.
So, like, just that pain oflike, all right, this isn't
working.
I've got to figure out how toget other people to sell.
Same thing with production, likecompanies growing, we're selling
more jobs, sales team's on fire,but now the jobs are falling
apart.
We got punch out lists that'snever ending, customers are
complaining, we're late.
Uh, so just the pain of customercomplaints and the jobs not

(07:17):
going well.
It's like, all right, I need todive into production.
I got to figure this out.
Um, and then like you said, nowI know I need to throw gas on
this thing.
It's like, how are we gonna takethe next jump?
Well, it's get better atmarketing.
Um, so really just the businesstalking to you um through
through screwing up, throughpain tells you what's next.

SPEAKER_02 (07:36):
The pain, yeah, what hurts, right?
Like let's what what what do weneed to fix next?
What hurts?
That it's a great way to thinkabout it.
We we were just talking a littlebit off air, um you know, about
kind of your journey and and andyou know, when we spoke last and
you were like, man, it's socool.
Like you, you know, it was justyou and maybe two other people.
It was like, you know, it wasthis this small thing, and and

(07:59):
you made a comment that that uhthat it it's getting harder for
the small guy.
You know, let's what are yourthoughts on that?
How how has it become harder forthe small for the small guy?
For someone, if if you I meanfor you to start it over again
with you know with whatknowledge and and and
connections you had back then,what would what would be the

(08:23):
challenges that you see in frontof you?
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(08:44):
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What are your thoughts on that?
How how has it become harder forthe small, for the small guy?

(09:05):
For someone, if if you I mean,for you to start it over again
with you know with whatknowledge and and and
connections you had back then,what would what would be the
challenges that you see in frontof you?

SPEAKER_00 (09:18):
Yeah, really hard, and I I don't like it.
I I hate it for the little guy.
Um, you know, I love thiscountry because the American
Dream's alive, but it'sdefinitely harder just because,
not because of any bad guys,just the landscape we're in.
Uh and really like the twobiggest areas is tech and
marketing.
I feel like the more we get intothe digital world, the further,

(09:39):
the further it gets for thelittle guy.
Because like I I was a roofer, Ihad a tool pouch, like I didn't
know anything about technology,but I had some time to figure it
out.
So whereas if I put myself in myshoes now with the way things
are, I feel like the gap fromnot even just private equity,
but even just like the largercompanies that have the
resources and the bandwidth touh explore all these new tools

(10:03):
out there.
Whereas the guy that's justrunning around trying to sell
roofs in his truck uh is so faraway from that.
Uh it's uh I don't want to saydisheartening because you can
always make it, but it'sdefinitely harder today than it
was when I started.
Um that's the reason I do somefree coaching and I help guys
out as much as I can.
I mean, I'm a busy guy, but I domy best to help.

SPEAKER_02 (10:23):
Yeah, technology is creating gaps.
Um it's uh this is the way I'vebeen looking at it.
There's a there's an arbitragehappening right now, right?
So there was an arbitrage yearsago with CRMs like Jab Nimbus
and and Acculinks and differentthings, and where it went from
pen and paper to the CRM, right?

(10:46):
Like that was an arbitrage.
The people that were that wereusing the CRMs using Jab Nimbus,
like all of a sudden, like it'slike, whoa, they're so much they
could be so much more efficientthan the the the guy down the
street.
And it it's crazy that somepeople still haven't adopted a
CRM or technology, right?
A ERP or anything.

(11:07):
Like, I mean, it's like it'sit's crazy.
It's crazy.
I I saw a handwritten quote theother day on a piece of paper.
I'm like it was the like someoneactually wrote this, like on a
handwritten.
This is crazy that it's stillhappening.
Um, some of the you know, thethings that I'm involved in,

(11:28):
like power-up agents and and andand now the AI roofing
revolution, we're you know,trying to get the this message
out really hard to the to the tothe you know to the small
business owner to help the smallbusiness owner close that gap
and get ahead of it now becauseotherwise you may you you'll
have a a big wall to climb.

(11:50):
Um and so what let's talk aboutwhat what are some things that
advice that you would givesomeone like, hey, I'm just
running this, maybe I'm I'musing a CRM, maybe I'm using
you're probably using a CRM atthis point, right?
Like I got maybe a sales personor two, I'm you know, where what

(12:13):
are you looking at intechnology?
Like what what do they need tolearn?
I think that because knowledgecloses the gap, right?
Like it's it's not that it's notthat the tech the technology is
out there, but getting to usethe technology is is that gap
that I feel needs to be closed.
You could tell me if I'm wrong,but like how do they how does

(12:36):
someone go about starting downthat path?

SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
Yeah, I've been telling a lot of guys this
recently, and it's to hire aCTO, even if you're small.
Um, because you, the roof guythat's out doing sales, that's
running jobs, you're just nevergonna be the tech guy.
I've come a long way in mytechnical capacity, uh, but I
have that person in my businessso that he can own all these
things.

(13:01):
Um we're so quick to justbecause most small guys pay an
agency for some type ofmarketing activity.
Yep.
Um, but then when it comes toworking with the agency or even
holding the agency accountable,you don't have the technical
side of marketing to be able todo that.
To go into Google Analytics andcheck if they're optimizing PPC,
to go into Google SearchConsole, to check the bugs, to

(13:24):
check all the activity that'sgoing on.
Us roofing owners can't holdagencies accountable, and most
agencies aren't doing all thework they should be doing for
what you're paying them.
Yeah.
So the CTO or technical engineeror whatever you want to call
that position, I think it'simportant for the little guys to
have a full-time employeein-house uh with technical

(13:45):
proficiency so that they can bethe ones working with the
agencies.
They can be the ones making surethat you're retargeting, making
sure all your audiences aregetting up uh taken from the
CRM.
All those things that you're notgonna be able to do, um that
hire can do all those things foryou.
And I'd almost say that I'venever properly worked with an

(14:06):
agency for marketing until I hadthat position.
Uh, because now I have ownershipof all the agency's activities
and we're supporting each otherstrategically.
Um, and now it's effectivemarketing.
So I should have done it a whileago, but it seems like a crazy
hire when you're like you got a$2 million roofing company,
you're paying this agency$10,000a month to try to bring you

(14:28):
leads.
If you do all the math, Ipromise it's worth it to hire
that person now, because now youcan take advantage of all the
new tools out there.
Uh and it just puts you in abetter spot.
So I think that's the bestsuggestion I have for that.
Uh, and then if you want to seehow I'm using tech, you could
just reach out to me and I'llI'll show you just to kind of
open your brain up.

SPEAKER_02 (14:49):
Yeah, that's awesome.
That fractional CTO, I thinkthat that may, you know, when
you put a C in front of theletters, I think that that could
get scary for people.
You know what I mean?
Like because that's an executivelevel, that's you know, C-suite
kind of level.
You think of salaries that are,you know, in the six-figure,
multiple six-figure area.
I I would also encourage you,man, if you just have someone in

(15:11):
the company that that will takeownership of it to begin with.
Like you could start small andit could be you.
You have to sit in a lot ofseats when you're building this
thing, right?
So you may have to to do that.
In the in the Roofing and SolarReform Alliance, Adam Benzwin
came out with a training calledthe marketing control system.
And we and that's what we reallydive into.
And it's it's really how tobecome the GC of your own

(15:35):
marketing, right?
It's kind of what you're talkingabout.
Like you you need the metrics.
You need to know you need toknow just enough, right?
If you're if you are a roofingcontractor, you better know what
a completed roofing system lookslike and a good installation
looks like.
Right.

(15:56):
You better know if if you're aninterior, you know, if you do
interior remodeling, you have toknow enough plumbing, enough
electrical, enough, right?
Like you have to know enough toknow if you know if it's being
done right.
You have to know enough to toknow if your bids are coming in
right, the labor's proper onthat.
Like you just have to knowenough.

(16:16):
And I think that that's wherethat's a good place to start,
right?
Is just to get to know enough.
You mentioned a couple of easythings.
Google Search Console.
And I bet there's 50 millionvideos on YouTube about that,
right?
Like and I bet you could find areal easy one, you know, to to

(16:37):
to just at least get just anunderstanding of what happens in
Google Search Search Console.
Essentially, it's Google's ranktracking for your website.
It'll tell you everything thatyou're showing up for for all,
you know, anytime someone typessomething in.
Um and and you could see theprogress of if you are ranking

(16:57):
for more and more things and ifyou're getting more and more
impressions and more and moreclicks to your website.
And you could start to see that.
One of my favorite things, youmentioned you guys have built a
good brand.
One of the my favorite things inGoogle Search Console because
people don't feel like there's agood way to measure brand.
Right?
It's like, man, how do youmeasure brand?

(17:19):
My one of my favorite things todo is to measure brand searches
in Google Search Console.
You can see how many timespeople are typing in Foxhaven
Roofing Group.
Foxhaven Roofing Group, right?
Like they the and and uh overtime, if you see that number
continuing to increase, you knowthat you're making an impact

(17:42):
from a brand perspective.
So there's it's very importantto do those.
Uh Google PPC, man, you gottaknow that, right?
Um so an agency is going toreport leads, maybe lead cost.
Um we look at marketingqualified leads, sales qualified

(18:04):
leads also.
What are you looking at fromthat metric?
How are you looking at yourmarketing metrics?
Like, what what metrics are youhave been the ones that are
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(19:09):
How are you looking at yourmarketing metrics?
Like, what what metrics are youhave been the ones that are
like, man, that has reallyopened our eyes to things?

SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
Yeah, it's it's not leads, it's qualified
appointments.
Like you said, qualifiedappointments.
Leads in Google Analytics don'tmean anything.
It's how many people do weactually get in the home for.

SPEAKER_02 (19:28):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
Uh and then I just look at return on ad spend as
how much did we spend on thischannel versus how much gross
profit did we earn from thatchannel?
So it's not revenue from yourmarketing channel, it's gross
profit.
A lot of people get that mixedup.
Revenue doesn't mean anything.
It's how much gross profit do weearn from our ad spend.

(19:50):
Um, you can get into customeracquisition costs, you can get
into all sorts of stuff, but thethe big ones for me is qualified
appointments and return on adspend looking at gross profit,
not revenue.

SPEAKER_02 (20:00):
Yep.
That's a great that those aregreat metrics.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:03):
You mentioned like you got to learn this stuff, and
I agree.
And like I did learn it uhbecause that's the type of
person I am.
I just like dove in and learnedmarketing.
I learned the tech stuff.
I'm pretty much like a tech geeknow.
I haven't been in the office ina month because I'm just on Zoom
meetings and on the computer allday, and I just work better in
my little home office.
Uh but if you're not thatperson, you just have to

(20:25):
understand that.
Like I get reached out to a lotabout job nimbus support.
I'm actually doing a webinartomorrow night uh showing people
how to do their build theirinstant estimate templates.
I did one last week on buildingout your boards and your
workflows.
Because I get reached out toevery day about job Nimbus
support.
So there's a lot of youngroofers out there that have a
job nimbus account and justcan't figure out how to use it.

(20:47):
They know they know it can helptheir business, but they just
can't figure out how to use it.
So, like, if you're the guythat's been slaving away for
eight hours a day trying tofigure out how to build job
nimbus and you can't figure itout, like you just have to be
self-aware to know you got toremove yourself from this side
of the business.
It can't be you.
And then I made a big mistakebecause I was the guy that could

(21:09):
figure it out.
I built the whole job nimbusout, but I became the only one
in my company that knew how towork job nimbus from lead to
paid and close.
I'm the only one that knew allof it, and that's a big mistake
because now when somethingbreaks, you, the owner of the
company, is IT support fixingthe system, and you don't want
to be in that spot.
So, like for all those reasons,the technical hire is important,

(21:29):
and like, yeah, I called it aCTO.
We should call it technicalspecialist or technical
engineer, like we just call itthat.
That's fine.
Um but having a sidekick on thetech side is super important
today, uh, more important thanever.
I love that.

SPEAKER_02 (21:43):
I love the a couple of things about that, right?
So knowing self-awareness is oneof the one of the great traits
that that has been measured inin CEOs, in entrepreneurs.
The more self-awareness youhave, the better it is, right?

(22:03):
And so that if you start gettingstuck and understanding this is
not what I do, this is not myskill set, I can I can hire
this, I can bring it in, how Ican, I can outsource this.
Be careful with outsourcing.
Um, but I think hiring andoutsourcing, you you kind of

(22:24):
have to treat the same way.
So we we could talk about that alittle bit maybe too, but my
thoughts on that and yourthoughts on that.
But so I I I think that a lot ofpeople make the mistake of
outsourcing as an easy button.
They'll hire a marketing companyas an easy button.
They'll you you'd mentionedearlier when we were chatting

(22:44):
before about outseat oroutsourcing bookkeeping,
outsourcing, right?
Like outsourcing all of thesethings.
Everyone hopes that that theycan just hit an easy button and
it gets done.
But I think you uh going back toit, man, if you you have to be
able to check their work, right?
You have to be able to checkthat marketing agency's work,
you have to be able to and andso making sure that you that's

(23:06):
all your goal is, is just tohave just to know enough, right?
Just to know enough to check thework.
But then on the other side of itis what you what you mentioned,
which I think is very powerful,and I think it's it's something
that is very challenging fromthe growth of any business, is

(23:27):
that all of the knowledge getsstuck in the owner's head.
My goodness, man, that like thethe the knowledge being stuck in
the owner's head could be one ofthe biggest problems that
entrepreneurs or business ownersface.
How do you get that?
How do you now how do youtransfer that knowledge out of

(23:48):
your head and into process andinto the team?

SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
Yeah, there's a there's a few different ways.
It almost depends on what theknowledge is.
So when it comes to like I'lljust put myself in my shoes.
When I was the one in charge ofall the salespeople, I was the
acting sales manager.
Uh, but I was at the point nowwhere I couldn't even I couldn't
even take that role seriousbecause I was too busy.
Well, now I had to createanother sales manager.

(24:14):
Um, it's first documentingeverything.
So, like this is where like theboring SOPs and and all that
stuff comes into play, but it'simportant.
There's a reason for thatbecause if you can document
everything, then you can passsomebody this clean folder or
this clean video library or thisclean list.
We use Notion, side note for allof our SOP libraries, our

(24:36):
meeting notes.
It's almost like our CRM for ourmanagers, uh, Notion.
But we have a video library oflike every SOP in the business
so that it's our entire businessstep by step is documented with
video instructions.
Uh so when you start to documentwhat you know, then you can pass
it to other people.
But then you also have to,there's a training aspect of

(24:58):
that.
Like you have to understand thatif you're the only one to do it,
if you're the only one thatknows how to do something in the
company, it's a problem.
Um, and I'm still backtrackingin certain things.
Like I'm building out somecustom tools right now that I'm
the only one that knows whatthey are.
But as soon as they're built,I'm gonna have to train my whole
team on what they are, how touse it, how to edit it, uh,

(25:19):
because you become thebottleneck when you're the only
one that knows something.
Uh, so that's where becoming areal leader comes in.
When you're training people tobe leaders under you, you're
passing your knowledge down tothem, and now you're an actual
leader because you cannot go tothe office for a month and
everything is intact andeverything is fine, and you know
you've done a pretty good job.

SPEAKER_02 (25:39):
That's for sure.
In that uh in the creation ofSOPs, I uh we've been having a
lot of conversations about thisrecently.
Um it's getting much easier withif you're able to use technology
to assist you in developing allthis stuff, man.

(26:01):
How how long do you think it?
I mean, well, it's been sinceyou started the company,
probably, that your SOPs havebeen built and and and evolved.
If you had to start over, sowhat we're 20 or five, seven
years into the business now?
So you have seven years of SOPs.
All of a sudden that databasegoes away today.

(26:24):
Using technology, using maybe AIand things like that, how fast
could you do you think you couldrebuild that seven years of
SOPs?

SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
In a month, if we were really pushing.
Yeah, we we documented though,and we kind of re started from
scratch because the thetechnology's changed.
So, like the SOP from year onethat was typed out how to create
an estimate in a word doc,that's useless now.
So we we use Tela, Tela.tv.
It's just a you can screenrecord nice videos, uh, you can

(26:52):
transcribe the video, and thenwe embed the Telelink into
Notion, and now you have AI thatcan read the transcription,
everything's searchable.
So like your team doesn't evenhave to know what they're
looking for.
Your sales guy could be like,um, my homeowner's not sure if
he wants a metal roof or ashingle roof, and just search
the AI in Notion, and it'll giveyou every video we've ever made

(27:13):
on that topic.
Um, and source it, and you cango right to it.
So those are the types of toolswhere I'm like suggesting, like,
dude, jump on the tech trainbecause you're falling behind,
because these big guys have allthese crazy tools and crazy
technology and they can trainpeople.
It's that's that's what I'mtrying to say.

SPEAKER_02 (27:30):
Yeah, and and there's you know, we we that's
kind of how this conversationstarted, right?
How it's harder for the smallerguy.
But now, in saying in sayingsome of these things, it can be
easier in ways also.
If you if you as the smallercompany adopt the technology
also, if you jump on the wavewith your board too, right?
If you start riding the wavetoo, you're gonna you're going

(27:53):
with everyone.
Everyone's gonna be going inthat same direction.
It's the compression of timethat we're able to achieve with
a lot of this technology, whichis so much fun right now.
Um another thing that I heardfrom you, and I've had this it's
another thing that's been kindof talked about.
I talked about it on a podcastwith Rosalind Burgess recently.

(28:16):
She talked, she always talksabout the power of
multiplication.
And it seems like that, youknow, when you when you first
hired those salespeople and gotout of sales, that you
multiplied, right?
It it's it's not addition, it'smultiplication.
And and and what have been theother like what have been the

(28:37):
places that you've invested inyour business from a team
perspective or even from atechnology perspective that have
that have that have multiplied,that have created that that
power of multiplication in yourbusiness.
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(29:00):
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(29:21):
page of the Roofing SuccessPodcast website.
Like, what have been the placesthat you've invested in your
business from a team perspectiveor even from a technology
perspective that have that havethat have multiplied, that have
created that that power ofmultiplication in your business?

SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
Yeah, I would say in marketing.
Um we recently kind ofoverhauled our all of our
marketing efforts.
Uh we fired a few agencies.
I hired that CTO I was tellingyou about.
I hired a new director ofmarketing.
Um, we got all new agencies.
We were more educated, we'remore focused.
Um The retargeting was a bigone.
We knew PPC was a whole.

(30:04):
But now because I have the teammembers and then we've got
Notion to keep everythingorganized.
We know all of our individualprojects per marketing channel.
So like PPC has a Notion folder.
We know everything we're doingin PPC right now.
Ruffle has a folder.
We know everything we're doing.
Our geofencing has a folder.
So the CRM for the managers wasa multiplier just on the whole

(30:26):
company's productivity.
Like I was actually thinkingthis morning when I was having
my coffee that like we have somany things going on, and
there's so much output from thecompany every day in like in a
positive direction because wefinally have a CRM for the
managers.
Like the CRMs we use, Job Nimbusisn't for managers.
Job Nimbus is to operate thebusiness.
But how do you, your salesmanager, your director of

(30:48):
marketing, your general manager,your tech guys, how do how do
you guys all stay organized onthe projects you're working on?
On AI recording meeting notes,on project tasks.
So because we're superorganized, we got our vendors in
the right place, we have theright people in the right place.
Our vendors are working superhard, crazy output.
Our managers are working superhard, crazy output.
So we've just multiplied theoutput from the business uh

(31:10):
through those things.
And I see it.
It's it's important.
I see it.

SPEAKER_02 (31:15):
That that makes a lot of sense.
The for the kind of the theprocess manager, the like
there's it's a different, it's adifferent construct from an
operational perspective, right?
The the the stuff that you havein Notion versus the stuff that
you have in Job Nimbus.
Job Nimbus is the theday-to-day, man.
It's just like this is the flowof the job.

(31:38):
Um that's awesome.
That that's good stuff, man.
Another thing that you mentionedis now you've been working from
home.
And that that has allowed you towork on a lot of this stuff.
But to me, there's somethingdeeper there.
It's not that that just goinghome allowed you to work on that

(31:59):
stuff.
It's that going home and the andand having a team that is taking
care of things and and and andand making making sure
everything happens properly onthe other side.
That's what allowed you to gohome and start working on all of
these cool projects and stufflike that.
So let's talk about that buildupover time and and when you, you

(32:22):
know, maybe your feelings aroundwhen you started to kind of move
yourself into that work on yourbusiness mode.

SPEAKER_00 (32:34):
I've always worked on the business.
It's just like, you know, it'snever like, all right, I'm
working in the business and nowI work on the business.
That's not how, that's not howit goes.
It's it's very seasonal.
Sometimes it's 50-50, sometimesit's late nights and weekends
are when you work on thebusiness.
For most of the early years,that's what it looks like.
That's just what it is.
So, like from 8 p.m.

(32:54):
till midnight, that's when youget time to work on the business
because your phone's notringing.
Saturdays historically havealways been my favorite workday
because there's less going on,the phones aren't really
ringing, so I can really knocksome good stuff out on the
weekends.
So you work on the business thewhole time because if you're
just stuck in the business 100%,you're never going to get
anywhere.
But there's a period where youhave to work in and on the

(33:16):
business, and the only way to dothat is just hours and
commitment.
Um, but as you start to bring inreal managers, that's when you
get to really start to work onthe business, is when you have
an actual general manager, notjust a quasi-generager, which
I've had.
So you can call someone a GM,but if you're kind of doing
their job for them andmicromanaging them, they're not
actually a GM.

(33:37):
Same with the sales manager.
If you have a sales manager, butyou're still the one running the
sales meetings, then who is yoursales manager actually?
It's when you have a salesmanager that runs the sales
meetings, runs the sales people,you don't even have to show up.
Everything goes fine, sales arestill good.
Same on the general managerside.
Now you have true leaders.
But then when you take one stepup, like all the notion stuff

(33:59):
we're talking about, now I havea full team of managers working
on the business.
So it's not just me working onthe business, it's all the
managers working on thebusiness.
So now we've got about fivepeople that are focused on doing
the high-leverage things thatare working on the business,
like everybody always gets tosay.

SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
I think that's a big uh a big a big point to make is
it's it's crazy how we hirepeople in our business, but then
we essentially end up hiring anassistant, not someone that owns
that role.
And that's what I heard from youjust now is like you're a true

(34:36):
general manager, a true salesperson, uh or sales manager,
right?
That that person they are theyare accountable and responsible
for that, for their role.
What what makes what has yousaid that you I think you said
that you had a general managerthat was more the other way,

(35:00):
that was that was more like yourassistant general manager,
right?
Like that, you know.
Um what were some of the lessonsthat you learned there?

SPEAKER_00 (35:10):
That you feel like you're the one picking out the
problems in the business still.
That's the that's the numberone.
It's like you get a chance tolook in QuickBooks and you see
an issue with overhead, withwhat any financial issue.
You're the one that picked thatout.
And then you bring it to themand you're the one that chose
them.
And then you think, well, why amI the one picking this out?

(35:32):
And it it was it wasn't itwasn't them, it was me.
Uh, I had to literally I had togive them the jobs.
Like I would hire them for theposition, but then I was the one
overseeing them, and they knewthey could always count on me to
point out the problems.
And it was just very simple.
Like I never had a straight upconversation, like, hey, you own
these KPIs, these are yours.
This is how you look, this iswhat you're looking for, and

(35:54):
this is yours now.
I'm not even gonna look.
I'm not even gonna look forthese problems.
You own this now.
And then me leaving the officelike solidified all of it.
I realized I was smotheringeverybody because I'd been so
good for so long that I wasn'tletting people elevate to become
real leaders.
But then once it was apparentthat, hey, Andy's not here
anymore, we got to take over.
Uh, everybody leveled up acertain percentage because they

(36:17):
just understand that it's them.
I'm not there anymore, andthey've taken responsibility for
it.
Uh, so that was big in leaving,is like we got a certain
percentage lift from my leadersbecause they realized Andy's not
here.
This is ours now.

SPEAKER_02 (36:29):
Yeah, he could they couldn't walk down the hall and
ask you.
You weren't finding the problem.
That was a that's a big ahamoment for me.
What you said is that if you arefinding the problem, so uh a
good a good team member in thatrole is maybe a measurement

(36:49):
there is are they finding theproblems?
What if, you know, I'm thinkingfrom a training perspective and
a and you know, uh, you know,how hiring is guessing, right?
And so you don't know if theperson's the right fit.
What do you think you could do,you know, as as you're building
them in that role to get an ideaif they're gonna find the

(37:13):
problems or or to communicate tothem that that is their job now
to find the problems?
Like how is that what what areyour thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 (37:24):
It's just communication.
It's just communication.
Like let's let's just say umclosing percentage per sales
rep.
Like if you're talking with yoursales manager, you show them in
the CRM how to find everybody'sclose rate, how often you want
to track it, maybe once a month,and you just explain why it's
important.
Hey, these these are the theseare the standards we hold for

(37:44):
our sales rep.
This is how we check them.
If there's issues, we know wehave to have conversations with
different reps.
So I don't think that's like a Idon't think that's like a tough
thing.
It's just like passing on whatyou know you need to look for.
Uh the the hard part is can theyhave hard conversations with
people?
Which if you grow a business,you'll get good at having hard

(38:05):
conversations with team members.
Uh because that's just part ofthe, you're you're gonna get
good at it.
You're just if you don't, youprobably didn't grow very much.
Uh, but can your leaders havethose hard conversations?
Uh and that's a different storybecause they don't own the
company, they're just somebody'sboss.
Uh, but if a leader can't havehard conversations and correct
somebody, then they're not aleader.
Uh so I would say that's the bigthing to look out for.

(38:28):
Can can this leader have hardconversations in the correct way
to get the point across, but notcompletely destroy somebody and
have it come out the other sideproductive.

SPEAKER_02 (38:39):
So, first is the metrics.
Like this, these are themetrics.
So defined metrics that they canthey have a scorecard that they
can see that in their rolesuccess and failure is
happening.
They can identify that there isa problem.
This is what I'm hearing fromyou, just paraphrasing, right?
Like what I'm taking from it.

(39:01):
A scorecard, metrics that theycan follow.
Hey, this is what the close rateshould be.
This is what we expect as aclose rate.
If it if it is above this,great.
If it's below this, now we needto start having finding out what
the issue is.
Do we need to train the personup?
Are they the right person forthe job?
Like, we can start going downthe if-then while else, right?

(39:21):
Like, okay.
The other side of that is thathard conversations.
Have you uh have you gotten achance to train on hard
conversations, or is it or youknow, because that's a you know,
we like I remember our our teamof Ruff Marketers at one point
with uh some of the accountmanagers and myself, we read
Crucial Conversations, which isa great book.

(39:43):
There's like we started tryingto execute those types of
convers like that knowledge intothe group.
Like, is that something thatmaybe is a point of training on
your leadership management teamthen?

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(40:51):
Is that something that maybe isa point of training on your
leadership management team then?

SPEAKER_00 (41:00):
On some level, yes, but on some level, no.
So, like, this is where you hearlike your best sales rep isn't
necessarily a good sales managerbecause some people, some people
have a natural inclination to bea leader and others do not.
So, like when we're hiring forleaders, we're looking for the
personality traits that make aleader.
Um, we're not just assuming thatwe can train somebody on all the

(41:22):
characteristics of being aleader, but then at the end of
the day, there's a way topresent a hard conversation.
You know, a team member's notdoing what you need them to do.
Um, you know, you have toexplain why this is a problem
and how we can make it better,and then the benefit of if we're
able to do that and just deliverit in a very matter-of-fact way,

(41:44):
and it usually goes fine.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (41:45):
So giving them a framework to deliver the message
maybe might be what what getstrained on.
But you're right, some peoplehave different skill sets,
right?
Like people have different skillsets, and and management is a
specific skill set.
Um, not all the bet it's it'skind of the same thing in you
know in sports.

(42:06):
The the best athletes a lot oftimes don't make the best
coaches.

unknown (42:10):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (42:10):
Right?
They're they might be the bestathlete, but they don't know
understand how to coach, right?
There's a different, it's adifferent skill set.
Um, from a hiring perspective,what are you looking for for
those management level people?
Or are you have you have youbeen uh more of a fan of of
building and promoting fromwithin?

SPEAKER_00 (42:29):
Yeah, we've been lucky.
Uh, because ideally, like mostbusiness owners will tell you
they'd rather just moveeverybody up because then it
feels all warm and fuzzy.
You've got team members thathave been with you a while.
The first couple of peopleyou've been with have been your
management team, and now they'rethe highest in the company,
which I got lucky.
That's just how it happened forme.
Um, my first two hires are nowthe highest uh managers in the

(42:50):
company.
I've actually given them someequity.
So, like that's how it workedout for me.
That's always uh the way you'dlike to go.
So I've never had to experiencehiring from the outside and now
making them uh my currentpeople's boss.
I've never had to do that.
Uh I would though, if I had to,if I didn't have the person to
move up and it wasn't gonna workout, or maybe I moved somebody

(43:11):
up and I realize, okay, they'renot a natural-born leader.
I've got to replace them.
I would do it.
I just I haven't had to.

SPEAKER_02 (43:19):
Yeah.
That's that is that is isfortunate that some of the
people that started with youhave grown with you in the same
capacity.
Because it doesn't always happenthat way, right?
And and and so that's a veryfortunate thing for you to have.
You mentioned that that you hadpromoted them and then now also
gave them equity.

(43:39):
Oh and everyone, there's a lotto that.
I I you know there's a lot to uhproviding that additional level
of mental ownership to thecompany, right?
Was that what what made what waswhat was your thought process in

(44:01):
in I think I'm gonna offerequity to this team member or
that team member or these teammembers?

SPEAKER_00 (44:07):
Yeah, I'm I'm huge on that.
I'm I'm huge on that.
And there's more team membersthat'll have equity later.
Um I I was kind of flirting withselling to PE when like all this
started going on.
They were reaching out, I wasdoing meetings.
Um, and then eventually I justgot to like for what?
For what?
I have an amazing team.

(44:28):
I'm young.
What what am what am I gonna do?
Why do I need all that moneyright now?
Is it just so that I can getrich?
And it kind of like I was neverin this just for the money.
I didn't start for the money.
So it kind of like put me backinto like my true roots of why
I'm doing this.
Yeah, and then it's like again,like, as a matter of fact, I
don't need to own 100% of thisthing.
These guys have been workinghard with me for five years.

(44:49):
Why don't they own a piece?
So I just um we're in it for thelong haul.
We're gonna keep going.
We're starting to help otherroofers out, which is really
fun.
The whole team likes it.
Uh, so I just wanted to, youknow, have my people share in it
because at the end of the day,if we're building something big,
everybody can have some of it.
And then it feels way better foreverybody uh anyway.
So it's just like, what am Iholding 100% for?

(45:11):
These guys have been with mesince the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 (45:13):
What what would what's the process?
What was the process for youfrom the kind of technical side,
the operational side of doingthat?
You know, I I know like largecompanies, they'll have employee
stock option programs andthey'll have like esops and
they'll they'll have differentthings.
Some some companies I've heardthey do there, there's like a

(45:34):
term it's called phantom equity,and it's kind of a thing like as
you were evaluating how to giveequity, what were some of the
things you thought about?
Like, how do I want to structurethis to protect the business but
also benefit the the teammembers that I'm giving this to?

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SPEAKER_02 (46:25):
How do I want to structure this to protect the
business but also benefit thethe team members that I'm giving
this to?

SPEAKER_00 (46:35):
First, I'm not an attorney or a CPA.
Those are the people I speak toto make these decisions, but um
stock options will be the way wedo it in the future when there's
a lot of people involved.
Uh, but for my first uh closestmanagers, I actually gifted them
equity, uh, which means theywon't have a taxable event
because Foxhaven's worth acertain amount of money.

(46:56):
So if I gift them 5%, they don'towe 5% of the taxes that would
come from Foxhaven.
Um, you're able to gift$15million worth of value in a
lifetime.
So for, and that's why I saidlater I can't just gift
everybody things because I'llreach my lifetime limit of
gifting with the IRS.
So, but for these first few, I'mgifting them true uh equity.

(47:19):
They're members on the OA,they're actual members.
Stock options are good.
You can give somebody, say, a 5%stock option.
So whatever the business isworth today, you give them a
stock option that says, okay, 5%of today's value of the business
is$100.
But then later, when youquadruple the business and the

(47:42):
business is now worth$1,000,they can take that$100 value of
the 5% and now convert it to 5%of the business is worth$1,000,
and now they just made a ton ofmoney on an exit.
But you don't benefit from astock option unless there's an
exit.
So, like for these originalpeople, it was better that I
made them true uh equitymembers.

SPEAKER_02 (48:02):
Yeah, for sure.
It's it's a lot to think about,but it it's cool that here's
here's what I it's how did itfeel when you got to a position
where you're like, man, I couldlike I could do this for them.
Like I could really cool.

SPEAKER_00 (48:18):
And now I'm now I'm like gung-ho with it.
So like um the the CTO uh Imentioned, we're starting a
separate LLC to do some thingsin um, I don't need to talk
about it now, but to do someother things.
Uh and I just I'm like, hey man,we're starting this new LLC,
you're gonna be my partner.
I'm giving you 30%.
And he was like, what?

(48:39):
What?
Yeah, like, yeah, you're doingall the work.
We're in it together, and it'sit's cool.
It's cool.
And now now you have a differentlevel of output from the team, a
different level of commitment.
Um, and just everybody's goingin the right direction.

SPEAKER_02 (48:52):
Yeah, and it and it's a it's a really cool thing
to be able to take what has beenlike given to you or that you've
earned and and now pass that onto another person and help them.
Like it's a it's a it's anawesome thing, man.
That that that and it it's it'sreally cool that you're doing it

(49:15):
that way.
I really that that's a reallycool thing.

SPEAKER_00 (49:18):
There's a speaking of there's a place we all every
business owner knows this whenyou're coming up.
There's a place you're in whereyou just feel the full weight of
everything going on, all theproblems land on you, all the
oversight lands on you.
You're the only one to look andfind problems.
And like when you can spreadthat out to your people,
everything gets a thousand timesbetter.
And like some guys never figurethat out and they're just

(49:40):
stressed out all the time andthey're worried, and they think
people are stealing from them,and they're not sure this
person's doing their job right.
Like, you don't have truemanagers, and you're not sharing
uh the burden of the businesswith your team, which you should
be doing.
It shouldn't all land on theowner.
So giving them equity is a greatway to do that.
Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 (49:59):
Uh, you talked about some other ventures.
You you have now uh gone uh intothe supply side.
You're you're starting to expandyour business ventures.
It's kind of it's kind of cool.
Once you learn business, you canyou can apply the business
learnings to to to a lot ofdifferent things.
But on the supply side, talk alittle bit about what you've

(50:19):
been doing there and then someof the like some of the now you
have a different viewpoint ofthe business.
What and and how has thatchanged for the better or worse?
Uh, you know, Foxaven.

SPEAKER_00 (50:33):
Uh yeah, so we started a metal manufacturing
and supply company.
Uh, we were just buying so muchmetal every year, millions and
millions of dollars on metalbecause we do a lot of metal
roofing, that it just made senseto go on our own.
Um, I didn't have the bandwidthto start that business.
So I partnered with somebodythat had been in the business 10
years.
He was like our go-to guy fromour previous supplier.
Uh, but like you said, you cantake the lessons of business and

(50:56):
plant them over here.
We got to where uh it took FoxHaven six years to get to where
we got in one year.
Uh, and that has a lot to dowith it.
You understand numbers, youunderstand how business works.
The investments in your businessdon't scare you.
So we got up to like 15employees, all these machines,
equipment, things going on.
But we knew our numbers and wewere watching everything and we
could handle it.

(51:16):
But when you're small, you'rejust so conservative and you
think you're broke all the timeand you think you can't afford
things because you don't knowyour numbers.
You mentioned earlieroutsourcing your books.
I could talk about that forhours because I've been seeing a
lot of that recently.
Awful idea.
Um, but being in the metal roofsupply business, our customers
are other roofers.

(51:37):
So you start to understand uhwhat's going on in the market in
a little deeper of a way.
So summer was very slow foreverybody.
I mean, I noticed on the FoxHaven side with the phone
ringing less and us having to domore to keep the appointment
schedule booked.
But then on the supply side, younotice because your customers
are just like, you know, guysused to do one or two a week and

(51:59):
you haven't heard from them in amonth.
And you call them to check in,what's going on?
I'm slow, man.
I'm really I'm really slow.
Um, so we just got to see thatover the summer.
And then I know all the thingsFoxhaven was doing to keep the
appointment calendar booked andtry to keep the thing moving.
We did more this summer thanwe've ever done in terms of like
inside sales efforts, marketingefforts, closing percentage

(52:21):
efforts to just keep the thingmoving.
And we were able to do so muchbecause now I've got some
leverage in the in the uh formof resources, human resources to
to do the things to keep theschedule full.
But then, like, you know, littletwo million dollar guy over here
that just getting started, likedoesn't even know the things to
do when leads slow down to tryto keep the calendar booked, um,

(52:42):
and then doesn't have thesupport to be able to do that.
And that's a lot of what we'retalking about, is just like for
the little guy, it's it'sgetting harder.

SPEAKER_02 (52:51):
Yeah, for sure.
All right, let's talk about it.
Let's talk about outsourcingyour books.
Because it's come up a couple oftimes now.
And it it's uh man, it's a it'sit's it's on your it's on your
mind and on your heart, it feelslike, right?
Like, you know, I like I said, Ithink so many people try to hit

(53:13):
the easy button on things, andand boy, that's a scary place to
hit the easy button.
What are you seeing?
What what what what lessons havehave you learned on that?
What are you seeing from fromother contractors that you know
that are red flags that are youknow the you know what what do

(53:35):
they need to know?

SPEAKER_00 (53:36):
I think it's it all starts like the decision to
outsource something or hire forthat same thing is like in my
opinion, if you're building ateam and you're building a
business and you've got bigambitions, because like I'll
talk to guys and they'll want ahundred million dollar roofing
company and they've got oneother employee.

(53:58):
Uh, and then if that's what youwant, why are you outsourcing
your books?
Why are you outsourcing yourcall center?
Why are you outsourcing allthese things?
Because you're not gonna getanywhere unless you build a
team.
You need to build a team.
And then, in my in my opinion,when you're early on, the most
important thing to do is build ateam with long-term bought-in
people uh that are gonna be init with you.

(54:20):
And if we're just hiring basicassistants or outsourcing
things, well, now we're the onlyone with the mind for the
business.
We have no real leverage or realsupport in the business.
So I don't recommend outsourcingeverything in the beginning
because you think you need tokeep your expenses low.
I think you need to build a teamand then grow the business
because now you have a team ofpeople.

(54:41):
Uh, I see a lot of guys jammedup with inside sales activities
because they don't have anassistant.
So they're fielding the callsand they're running an
appointment and they don't havean assistant.
There's no way you, as theowner, running appointments that
way and running sales that wayis doing a good job of following
up.
So, like, hire the adminassistant, show, show them the
sales pipeline and teach themhow to support you in sales so

(55:04):
that you sell more roofs.
Because if you do that, you willsell more roofs because you're
not following up with anybody.
But all the way back to thebooks, the books is a big one.
And I I've I've done probablyseven QuickBooks Zooms in the
last two weeks, and all seven ofthem outsourced their books.
And most of them didn't evenhave their QuickBooks login.

(55:25):
And they would all tell me thesame thing before we started.
No, my bookkeeper's good.
And it's like, what are youbasing that off of?
Because what do you know abouttheir books?
How do you know they're good?
Because they know more than you?
Because they seem smart.
You don't know if they're good.
Let's go into QuickBooks.
So we go in there and thebalance sheet's jacked up.
There's truck payments on theirincome statement.

(55:47):
Uh their cost of goods sold'sjacked up.
They've got they're two monthsbehind on material uh invoices.
So their gross profit looksreally strong, but they're two
months behind on materialpurchases.
So really their gross profit's15% less.
The advertising category is justone lump sum of advertising.
They have no idea where they'respending their money.
Um, commission, all sorts ofproblems to where they have no

(56:13):
idea where they're at in theirbusiness.
And it's like, how do you makethe next hire?
How do you set a marketingbudget?
How do you do any of thosethings if you have no idea where
you're at in your business?
You don't know what you'remaking on the jobs, you don't
know what your overhead is.
I've had meetings with guyswhere we're going through
because the CRM can be powerfulfor job costing.
We've always used QuickBooksbecause just old school, I

(56:35):
guess, but uh we just do ourbookkeeping correctly in
QuickBooks.
It's no extra work to pull PL onthe job when it's done.
So we don't even use CRMs forjob costing, but you can.
The tools are in there.
But that has nothing to do withyour rent, your insurance, your
office supplies.
Like you have no idea yourpayroll expenses, which is a
giant category, your marketingexpenses, which is giant.

(56:57):
So I've had guys that say, okay,yeah, we priced a job at 40%
gross profit and our overhead's12, so we're gonna net 28.
I'm like, oh, that's great,dude.
You're netting 28.
That's amazing.
Then we go into QuickBooks andtheir overheads 30%.
Like, dude, you're pricing jobsas if your overhead's 12, but
your overhead's actually 30, andyou don't even have your

(57:17):
QuickBooks login to know this.
So all these types of examplesare things I'm seeing.
And I keep telling these guys,QuickBooks is not just to file
your taxes.
So, like, yes, we file ourtaxes, so we need a bookkeeper,
we need a CPA to file our taxes,but the bookkeeper and the CPA
aren't roofers.
We keep our books to grow ahealthy, profitable business and

(57:38):
make decisions.
It's how we make decisions, isthe numbers in our business.
And the CPA and the bookkeeperdon't know how you run your
business, so you need to say inyour books.
We've always done bookkeepingin-house, my my whole career.
I mean, I did it personallymyself in the beginning, and
then I hired for it.
So we've always owned ourbookkeeping.
So if you look at my PL, it'sstructured exactly how I want to

(57:59):
be able to see where my businessis at without having to click
into anything, without having toquestion anything.
It's not that difficult to dothat.
So, with all the times I've seenthe outsourced books, I just
feel like it's not an optionfrom what I've seen of guys
doing it.
Um my long rant on outsourcedbooks.

SPEAKER_02 (58:16):
No, that's great.
No, that's great.
But like now, let's go into likehow how would how would you
think about structuring youryour books to give you that the
best viewpoint?
Like, how do you take yourbusiness and and and and and
make that into financialstatements?

SPEAKER_00 (58:36):
Yeah, so just uh we don't even need to talk about
the balance sheet because that'sa little advanced, although like
at some point you've got to getinto the balance sheet, but
profit and loss statement.
If we're gonna run a good,healthy business, we got to look
at our PL.
You have sales, then you havecosts of goods sold.
But we don't want genericcategories that the bookkeeper
came up with in our costs ofgoods sold.

(58:57):
Because like you'll see thingslike in subcontractors' expense,
you'll have gutter guys,painters, drywall guys, your
roofers, you'll have all sortsof stuff lumped into there.
But if I'm a roofer and allthat, all those uh outside subs
that aren't roofing subs shouldbe separated.
I want to know what I pay inroofing labor because that's

(59:19):
those are the jobs that Iestimate.
I want to know what my roofinglabor is.
Um job materials.
Maybe you don't want to see yourABC beacon SRS, maybe you don't
want to see that amount categorylumped in with all your
miscellaneous Home Depotpurchases.
Maybe that muddies the watersfor you.
Maybe you want to see themseparate.
But those are just decisions youas the owner would know.

(59:40):
And then the marketing's huge.
You can't just have advertisingand promotional and have every
dollar you've ever spent inmarketing in this lump sum
category.
Now you have to click into thecategory, look through all the
transactions, okay, and then addit up.
Whereas if you're just if yourbookkeeping was in order and you
would categorize those expensesand you had Google LS.
Say in a subcategory.

(01:00:01):
PPC.
Maybe you had a brandingcategory for things like that.
Billboards, TV streamingcommercials, meta ads.
If you separate it all out intosubcategories, now it's real
easy to look at the marketingmetrics we were talking about.
Return on ad spend per channelbecause you have nice clean data
to pull out of QuickBooks andmake those calculations.

(01:00:23):
So just all sorts of detail inyour books that you, as the
roofer, even the roofer thatdoesn't understand QuickBooks,
they still understand theirbusiness.
They understand how they quotejobs.
They understand what overheadis.
And if they start to get intomarketing, they would understand
that that lump sum categoryshouldn't be that way.
Like the roofers understandstructuring it correctly.

(01:00:44):
Once they get in there, theyjust haven't started to get in
there because they thought it'ssomething they could outsource.
And it's not.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:03):
Hey, marketing agency, you know how to set up
marketing.
Go set up marketing for me.
You like everything gets thislike, go do that for me, but
without understanding it,without being a part of the
process, like without saying,hey, no, this is how my business
is run.
You know, sometimes we havepainters out, sometimes we have,

(01:01:23):
you know, sometimes we're, youknow, we're doing these other
things, and I need that brokenout.
I need to see that.
Sometimes we're buying, youknow, from this supplier, that
supplier, and sometimes we havethese Home Depot runs.
Boy, I want to keep an eye onthose Home Depot runs, right?
Like, because that's gonna tellme something about my business.
That's gonna tell me maybe we'reordering wrong.
Right?
We're the it's gonna things thatthese the numbers can make

(01:01:47):
decisions on other aspects ofthe business.
They could kind of to what wewere talking about, they can
bring some problems to light,right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:55):
Um there's another big one real quick, uh, just on
the quick book, because I'vebeen seeing this a lot lately.
Two main things your revenuerecognition.
So I've seen a lot of guys,they'll have uh maybe they take
a 50% deposit or maybe they billfor a hundred percent and then
they collect their progresspayments, but they're billing

(01:02:18):
for a hundred percent of the jobwhen the job is sold.
So QuickBooks is calling itincome.
So it's making your profit lookhuge, but in reality, you
haven't even done that job yet.
So QuickBooks shouldn't berecognizing a$40,000 roof before
you've bought any materials,scheduled the job, paid any
crews.
You shouldn't be recognizingthat income because it's gonna

(01:02:38):
make your profit look great.
And then if your vendor invoicesaren't being added as bills and
QuickBooks correctly at theright time, now your job
materials category is short 100grand because you're 30 days
behind.
So you're way overshooting yourrevenue up top, and then you're
undershooting your expenses, andnow your gross profit looks
amazing, looks like you havethis super healthy business.

(01:03:00):
Meanwhile, you're paying salescommissions that are too much
that the business can't afford,and you're negative, but your
books say that you're not.
Uh, it's it's it's a pro it's aproblem, man.
And when I do these meetings,like people like almost they
almost want to cry because theythey think they're doing great
and they don't realize they haveall these problems.
And the just the main source ofit is they just outsourcing

(01:03:21):
their books and not payingattention.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:23):
Not paying attention and not, but it's a it's a lack
of understanding, you know whatI mean?
Like we can't know everything inour business.
And so, and and I'm a I'm a bigbeliever in in in speed to
execution.
So sometimes you gotta just go,right?
And so sometimes you gotta just,hey, set this set these books
for up for me, but then hey,let's revisit this.

(01:03:43):
You know, like let's find, andthat's what it seems like you've
been getting some time with withwith with with with some owners
and and revisiting that.
Hey, let's take a look at it.
So, you know, think about from afrom a perspective for the for
the listeners, think about, hey,what what do I need to revisit
here?
What do I need to revisit on aregular basis to make sure that

(01:04:04):
we're we're moving this thing inthe right direction, to find
those problems, and keep a keepa healthy growing company.
Um what uh I'd love to learn oror understand your vision for
Foxhaven and the future of FoxHaven and the kind of the way
that the roof you believe theroofing industry is going, what

(01:04:28):
you feel like uh you you need todo to effectively ride the wave
of technology that's coming toto you know to compete against
the the PE money, to like whatare the things that you're
looking at in the future that isgonna that is gonna make sure or
ensure that Foxhaven RoofingGroup continues to thrive?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:54):
Yeah, one thing is like as far as competing with P,
that doesn't scare me too much.
Uh, because like if you thinkabout who they are, they just
collect investment and then takethat investment and come buy a
company like me and then go buya bunch of other companies.
And they need the guys like meand the guys like the future
companies are gonna buy becausethey're not roofing company

(01:05:16):
operators.
They're sophisticated, theyunderstand numbers, they
understand business, but us toocan become sophisticated and
know all the things that theyknow.
Nothing's a secret, everything'sout there on the internet.
Uh, so I'm not I'm not scared ofP entering my market and out
operating me because they'rejust not gonna.
I've I've spent a whole lifetimein roofing.
I understand every piece of thebusiness.

(01:05:37):
We have the tech tools in place.
Uh, we're pretty sophisticatednow.
So that side doesn't scare me.
Um, access to funding is adifferent story.
So because they know all theseinvestors and they're good at
collecting these giant funds,uh, they kind of have unlimited
financial resources.
Uh, but there are ways for guyslike me to get funding, uh, to

(01:06:00):
get private funding, to getfinancially back just the same
ways they do.
Um so it kind of pumps me up theidea of trying to compete with
them.
And we may start to do similar,similar activities uh as the PE
companies, and that may be whywe're working so hard on all our
tech and all of our things.
Uh, but I'll leave it at that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:20):
That's awesome, man.
It's been an awesome, awesomechat with you today.
Lots of good stuff.
This has been another episode ofthe Roofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning in to theRoofing Success Podcast.
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