April 22, 2025 • 57 mins
Roofers are throwing money at marketing agencies, boosting posts, and running ads… yet leads are slow, close rates are low, and it feels like you’re just burning cash.
The truth? Most roofing companies don’t have a marketing problem. They have a marketing control problem.
In this episode, Joseph Hughes (Contractor Dynamics) breaks down how to stop the guesswork and take control of your marketing. You’ll learn:
✅ The difference between spray-and-pray marketing vs. intentional marketing
✅ The biggest waste of marketing dollars (and how to fix it)
✅ Why hiring a marketing agency is NOT an easy button
✅ The #1 role every roofing company should hire before spending more on marketing
This is the conversation roofing contractors NEED to hear. If you want to stop wasting money, take control of your leads, and maximize ROI, hit play now.
🔗 https://www.contractordynamics.com/
🤖 Have a question? Ask this customized ChatGPT for the answer! Specifically designed for this episode, it’s here to help! https://roofingpod.com/chatgpt-252
PODCAST SPONSORS:
- The Roofing & Solar Reform Alliance: https://roofingpod.com/RSRA
- JobNimbus Marketing Services: https://roofingpod.com/jobnimbus-marketing
- PowerUp Agents AI: https://roofingpod.com/power-up-agents-ai
- Day 41 Thrive: https://roofingpod.com/day-41-thrive
IG: https://www.instagram.com/roofingsuccess/
FB: https://www.facebook.com/groups/roofingsuccess
Join Our Facebook Group: https://roofingpod.com/facebook
📱 Text Jim @ (612) 512-1812 – Say Hi!
💬 Leave Us a Review: https://roofingpod.com/review
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How do you go from marketing guesswork to
consistently generating highreturns for your roofing
business?
In this episode, joseph Hughesshares his insights on how
contractors can take control oftheir marketing and stop
spraying and praying for results.
Joseph Hughes is the founder ofContractor Dynamics, a
marketing training company thatempowers roofing contractors to
(00:22):
master their own marketing.
With over a decade ofexperience, joseph has helped
countless businesses demystifyand optimize their marketing
strategies.
Joseph's focus on teachinginstead of doing shows his
commitment to equippingcontractors with the tools they
need to thrive, making him anindispensable voice in the
(00:43):
industry.
Today's episode is packed withactionable strategies to measure
and maximize your marketing ROI.
Let's get started with JosephHughes.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
roofing business.
To help you grow and scale yourroofing business.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
The infamous Joseph Hughes, infamous Whoa, all right
, all right, that's a curve ball.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Let's start it off that way.
Joe, like you know, I love whatyou do in the industry, love
having you on.
We've talked a lot over theyears For those of you that, for
those that don't know JosephHughes, I'm pretty sure our
whole audience knows you.
But what's a little update?
What's an update on JosephHughes and Contractor Dynamics?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Cool, real, quick.
Contractor Dynamics marketingtraining company for the roofing
industry.
So what we do all day, everyday, is we have an amazing team
and we are training roofingcompanies on how to run their
own marketing, how to takecontrol of their own marketing.
So, in contrast to a lot ofmarketing agencies that do the
(01:54):
work for you, we are trainingyou on teaching you how to fish.
We're not selling you the fish.
So I've been in business 11years.
It makes me feel kind of old,but we're still kind of like
that, you know, startup mindset,where we're continually
learning and growing.
And we added a bunch of peopleto our team last month.
(02:15):
So we've got an awesome newsales guy, kevin.
We've got an awesome newintegrator, coo, steve, a new
copywriter.
We added a coach to our teamlast month.
So, yeah, as we kind of finishup 2024, we're getting our new
team members on board.
It's always an interesting timeof year for a business owner
(02:36):
because you're focusing on thenow and finishing up your strong
.
Then you have an eye towardnext year.
So you're kind of like one footin this year, one foot in next
year, trying to do both and justtrying to keep everything
afloat and thriving.
So, yeah, learning and growingliterally every day and blessed
to have an amazing leadershipteam, team of people overall at
(02:59):
CD.
So, yeah, I'm excited to stepmore into the visionary role Now
that we have our new integratorin place, step more into that
visionary role in 2025 and kindof just continue to evolve.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah, it's, a business is an evolution, like
it never stops iterating, right,there is no, and I think we
have to fall in love with thatiteration If we're going to to
do this for the long term right,if we want to be successful for
the long term, it's just alwaysthat iteration, always the next
thing that you need, that youget to learn and implement in
(03:34):
the business, right, it's alwaysa lot of fun.
I mean, you've been in themarketing space for a long time.
We came up knowing each otherin the marketing space.
I wanted to talk to you becauseI think that a lot of
contractors struggle withmaximizing the results of their
marketing, and so let's startwith that how do you maximize
(03:58):
the results or maximize yourreturn on investment from your
marketing efforts?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Man, that's the multi , not even the million dollar
question, the multi-milliondollar question, Because it's so
common.
I'm sure everyone listening,watching is like man, yeah, I
don't know, I really don't know.
Like, we're in December rightnow.
We're recording this.
Okay, I've spent some.
I spent this amount of money onmarketing this year.
Maybe some people don't evenknow which was me before.
(04:26):
We had our fractional CFO whokind of like, hey, this is what
you guys have been spending.
I'm like, oh wow, All thatstuff adds up Two grand a month
here, four grand a month there.
Before you know it, you'respending more money on marketing
than you ever expected becausethere's no one at the helm of
that ship.
It's just like throwing a bunchof things out there.
(04:46):
We call it spray and pray.
Right, Spray a bunch of thingsout there, pray that like
something works.
Um, and that's not a goodstrategy because even if
something does work, like youdon't know what's working and
what's not there's that oldmarketing saying that you
probably know, Jim, it's uh, uh,I think it's John Wanamaker
back in the mid-1900s.
He said half of my advertisingspend is not working.
(05:11):
Problem is, I'm just not surewhich half, and it's so true.
So there's a lot that goes intothat.
I forget the question, man,I'll just be honest.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
No, that's right, You're on the right track here
and it's.
I think that that's what it is,the, the, you know, maximizing
the return on investment of yourmarketing dollars really starts
with understanding yourmarketing Right, and and I think
that you you made a point therethat was, you know, even to
that old adage of 50% of mymarketing is working, but I
(05:46):
don't know what 50% is working.
And a lot of times contractorsdon't even know, they don't know
a hundred percent of what'sworking or what's not working.
They don't like and that's abig struggle, and I think that's
the conversation that we wantedto have is to this man like
first, what are what do goodresults look like?
(06:09):
Do people even know what?
What good results look like?
What you know?
You know, you've, you'vecoached a lot of contractors and
help them, help them set upwith a marketing manager in
their business and and workedalong the way.
How do you, how would you tellthe way?
How would you define to acontractor?
(06:29):
Maybe we'll start on a moremacro level, but how do we know
if our marketing is working?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Man that's great For everything that we do, whether
it's we were just talking withour CFO yesterday about this
digital marketing specialist wewant, want to hire in Q1, and
he's like, okay, like what, whatdoes success look like for this
person and how are youmeasuring it?
Cfo is just, you know, lookingto justify every, you know every
line on him, right?
So like, all right, well, thisis what success looks like for
(06:59):
this person.
Here's how we're going tomeasure it.
Same thing with marketing whatdoes success look like and how
are we going to measure that?
So that can come in differentforms.
So, with marketing, some thingsare trackable down to the penny.
So say, google ads, lsa,facebook ads, things like that
(07:19):
that are more like directresponse in nature I put a
dollar in, I'm going to get $10out, whatever that equation
might be.
Then there's other things thatare more qualitative.
I'm running brand awareness,social media ads, we're doing
direct mail, we have our truckswrapped, we have our community
event, we're sponsoring theLittle League team, we're radio,
tv billboards, you name it.
There's some of those thingsthat aren't attributable to a
(07:42):
particular lead, right?
So Mrs Jones calls in hey,how'd you hear about us?
I don't know.
I see you guys everywhere inthe neighborhood.
I've been living in the areafor a while.
It's not like she clicked onthis particular Facebook ad, so
I'm interested to hear yourfeedback on that too.
So there's that quantitativelike yes, there's that dollar
and cents ROI.
But then there's also thatqualitative return, which is
(08:04):
like okay, we're getting ourwe're having warmer appointments
, which means our close rate ishigher, because people have seen
us over and over and we're notjust any old roofing contractor
in Minneapolis Our close rateshigher.
We're getting beat up on price.
Last, our gross, our averagegross profit, is higher.
We're getting more referrals,more reviews, things like that.
So those are qualitative innature, which is why you need to
(08:28):
be looking at everything on aregular basis.
We get into tracking in a littlebit.
So how do you measure that?
It's going to be your overallat the end of the quarter, end
of the year.
It's like what did we spend interms of marketing for this year
?
And that's going to be yourpeople, that's going to be your
offline stuff, your swag, yourtruck wraps, your yard signs,
(08:50):
your online marketing.
What do we spend in total?
What was our revenue?
Is that within our acceptablerange of what we want to spend.
We can get into particularnumbers there.
So you have to look at it on amicro level in terms of the
leads that you generated, butalso as a team on that more
macro level.
And then, yeah, did we open upnew opportunities from our
(09:10):
marketing?
More relationships withrealtors or insurance agents or
GCs or whatever else isimportant to you other people
that can feed you business.
And marketing is also a keyplayer in terms of recruiting
and attracting talent.
So how many people do we needto hire next year?
How is our marketing going toplay into that?
(09:31):
So, if you're going to use yourmarketing to attract a million
dollar sales rep, well, yeah,you want to make sure you do a
good job at your marketing.
Be intentional about that,because you're not just
marketing for a $20,000 roof,like you're marketing for
someone that's going to producea million dollars in revenue.
That's marketing as well.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
There's so many things and this is, I think, the
core of it.
First is that people don't evenknow what to expect from their
marketing sometimes, and I thinkthat if you don't know what
success looks like, you have ahard time making good decisions
(10:09):
as to what you should be doing.
I always think that if youdon't know, you have to guess at
first.
Right, if you're newer to amarketing channel say Facebook
ads or something like that man,you're going to have to guess as
to what a successful lead costmight be, or customer
(10:31):
acquisition cost or long-termvalue of that customer.
So in setting up, let's talk alittle bit about that, like
those getting set up tounderstand if this is really
what should we be doing or not.
Right, like, if you don't likewhat you had said, let's go back
and see what we spent over thequarter and did it work?
That would be a laggingindicator, right?
(10:54):
Maybe let's look at some thingsthat we can look at as leading
indicators and maybe somedecisions that people would need
to make.
So I think first off is likehey, man, do you know what an
acceptable customer acquisitioncost would be?
Maybe they start there.
Do you think that's a goodstarting point.
Is there a different place thatthey could start?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah, the acquisition cost is fantastic.
Even a step before that isgetting clarity on.
A step before that is gettingclarity on who is my ideal
client, what's my ideal project,right, and what is that in
terms of?
So my ideal project is anasphalt roof replacement.
(11:36):
I'm in New Jersey, so theaverage ticket is going to be
$20,000, right, that's our idealproject.
Our ideal client is that couplein their 40s that have, they're
busy, they don't have a lot oftime, they have money to spend,
they appreciate value, they'renot looking for the cheapest guy
, they're looking for a greatexperience.
(11:58):
So we have our ideal client, ourideal project, that $20,000
asphalt shingle replacement.
Our gross profit on that is,you name it, 12 asphalt shingle
replacement.
Our gross profit on that is,you know, you name it, 12 grand.
Just say you know round number.
So our average gross profit is12.
What are we willing to?
You know what's our acceptablerange for, like what we're
willing to pay to acquire one ofthose, one of those roofs,
(12:19):
right?
So you're going to have to findyour range from there.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
So, so, yeah, I love that you said range.
Yeah, I love that you saidrange, because that's I always
have.
Have have put a dollar amounton it, but I love that that
there's a range, because therereally is a range, right.
Um, and, and I want everyonelistening to understand that the
least amount possible is not anacceptable range.
(12:43):
Yes, the least amount possibleis not an acceptable range.
Yes, yeah, that's notacceptable.
Do not say as the least amountpossible that's what I want to
pay for a customer, that's whatI want my customer acquisition
cost to be.
You know really what is, man,if we're at $600 to acquire a
(13:03):
customer boy, we're doing reallygood, right, but if we get up
to $1,200, now it starts to geta little.
You know, we got to make somedecisions, right, like you know.
So I love the idea of the range, man, that's a good point for
everyone to think about.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Well, yeah, and two things there.
Well, one of the ratios that wetrack in our company is cap to
think about.
Well, yeah, and two thingsthere.
One of the ratios that we trackin our company is cap to LTV.
So that's customer acquisitioncost to a lifetime gross profit.
So, and for us it's a littledifferent because we're kind of
a recurring business model butlike as a contractor, what is
that customer acquisition costas a percentage of that value,
(13:42):
that gross profit of 12 grand?
You know you could use abenchmark of like four to one.
So in that case you'd bewilling to pay maybe up to
$3,000 to get a $12,000 grossprofit roof.
Again, 20,000 top line, justkind of rough numbers.
It's going to have to makesense for you and your business
and talk to your CFO and thingslike that.
But understanding what thatbenchmark looks like for you.
(14:05):
And if you're over that 4 to 1ratio, great, because you're
spending less to acquire acustomer.
If you're under that, thenyou're going to spend too much
on that.
And then, jim, what you said islike so many people, I guess,
when you don't understandmarketing, you view it as an
expense, right Like a costcenter.
How little can I spend onmarketing this year?
(14:26):
How can we drop our marketingspend?
But that's kind of the wrongmindset.
And I'm not just saying thatlike, spend more money with
Contractor Dynamics or anythinglike that.
But it's like if you want toscale, if you want to grow your
company from 5 to 8 million,marketing is going to be a lever
and you got to understand howto use that lever so you can say
(14:48):
, yeah, we're going to increaseour marketing spend next year,
we want to grow by 60%, which isa big jump from five to 8
million.
What, what more?
What do we need to do more ofLike.
And if you don't understandwhat's working, you can't like,
you can't scale that Right.
So I think that's that's amindset thing A lot of
contractors have.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Definitely.
I was in the real estate andmortgage industry for many years
and I met this realtor in themid-2000s out in Denver who had
come from a different professionand was just starting their
real estate career and they hada little bit of money to invest
in their marketing and theybought every Zillow zip code, so
all of the leads and all of theZillow zip codes in the
Northern Metro area of Denver.
This was an aha moment for me,joe.
I was like wait, you're doingwhat?
(15:33):
With the intention that theyknew that homeowners move every
five to seven years.
So the goal was to buy as manycustomers every year, not for
what they made in profit on themthat year, for what they will
make in profit on them in thefuture.
And I was like whoa, yeah,there's not many people that'll
(15:57):
do that right, like you.
Really, truly, the way I put itis if you have faith in the
outcome, you'll execute.
Right.
I put it is if you have faithin the outcome, you'll execute
right, like and so if you don'thave faith like that, that
individual had faith that thatthey would.
But it was faith in theirexecution.
It was faith that they wouldcontinue to follow up and make
(16:18):
that homeowner continue to knowthat they're the realtor of
choice.
Right, when you know they'regoing to, they're not just going
to do the transaction and thenmove on and never talk to them
again.
Right, they wanted to build along-term relationship with that
person.
And now, not only might thatperson move, in five to seven
years their neighbor might bemoving, their cousin might want
(16:41):
to buy or sell a house.
Right Like?
There's such a long-term valueout of customers that I think if
you don't have that long-termvision, boy, it's hard.
Right?
If I told you, joe man, if youinvested a million dollars this
year, that 10 years from now youwould have a $50 million
(17:04):
business, like I think everyonewould you know, like with great
profit margins let's add thatcaveat in for all the haters,
you know, all the commenters onYouTube.
Right, like this, like, if youreally, if you were, if someone
told you if you really made thisinvestment but you had to
execute on all of the littlethings along the way, would you
really do it?
(17:25):
And so I think that comes downto that CAC LTV conversation is,
man, if you really have faithin the outcome of your people,
if you know that your sales repsI've had this conversation on
some RSRA calls.
Recently I was talking to oneowner who he has three or four
sales reps and one of his salesreps he knows that if that sales
(17:48):
rep goes out to a neighborhood.
If they get one job in theneighborhood, that guy's getting
five, like four or five rightaway, right off of that one
neighbor, and because of thefaith in that one individual boy
you can pour marketing dollarsat that person.
Now he has that.
Don't ask as well for thosereferrals.
(18:10):
It's harder to pour money intothose reps, right?
So the long-term value might bea little bit different between
your sales reps too.
So knowing your business wellis probably a good thing.
I know I kind of rambled onthere, but I guess that leads me
to how much of an investmentshould a company make in
(18:34):
marketing when they're makingthat educated guess as to what
the outcome might be.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Sure, I love that.
You talked about the referralthing.
That was on my mind as well.
Like, if you're going to, ifyou know that for every job you
get, you're going to get 1.2referrals from every customer,
then that lowers that customeracquisition cost.
So, yeah, awesome point there.
As far as, like, how much didyou spend Invest?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Let's not say spend right, let's talk about
investing in marketing.
You got me, you got me yes.
We still do it ourselves and weknow and we-.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
One of our core values that we're impeccable
with our words.
So thanks for making meimpeccable.
So if you Google that questionand, jim, I know you have a lot
of experience with this too youranswer may vary, but I'm the
guest, so I'm right now For sure.
So if you Google it, you knowhow much.
You know what.
Should my marketing spend beper percentage of revenue?
(19:27):
You're going to find like fiveto eight percent in maintain
mode, 10% and over if you wantto really grow.
And I think like a lot of maybeyou know greedy marketing
professionals will be like yeah,you got to spend.
You know 10% plus, especiallyif they're getting paid on a
percentage of your ad spend,which a lot of agencies of
record will do.
So you got to be aware of thoseincentives.
(19:48):
Margins and contracting androofing are great.
Should you spend 10%?
I don't believe so.
Our clients are more on anaverage of like 5%.
The caveat there is thatthey're spending, they're
investing again, investing timeinto their marketing.
So it's not just like hey, I'm aroofing company owner, I don't.
I know marketing is important.
I don't want to figure it out,I'm too busy, I'm just going to
(20:09):
pay Jim to like, make magichappen Right.
So if that's your mentality,yes, you're going to overspend
because you're trying to payyour way out of your marketing
problem.
You're not taking ownership ofit and you've got to take
ownership of it.
In no other I don't know wedon't work in other industries
outside roofing but in no otherindustry is there such a
(20:30):
widespread belief that like, hey, I'm just going to put my
customer acquisition in thehands of someone else.
I'm not going to take ownershipof that.
It's just, it's amateur hourand I get passionate about it
because I see people just likeit's just an education moment.
You got to take ownership ofthat your ability to generate
customers.
So 5% of your target revenueallocates toward marketing and
(20:54):
then you're investing time in it.
You're creating content, you'recreating a marketing plan,
you're creating a marketingbudget.
You have someone in-house who'shelping you with marketing or
in charge of that marketing.
So it's this time plus moneyinvestment.
It's not just a moneyinvestment.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
For sure, let's call it the easy button, joe, I coach
about 35 agency owners that areall in different niches and
I'll tell you it's very similarfrom type of business to type of
business, from vertical tovertical, from niche to niche.
I think it's a small businessthing, okay, good, I heard a
(21:34):
friend of mine was on a podcastrecently and I heard her talking
about how those were some ofher challenges early on in
business as she was looking forthe easy button.
I think that's what happens,right, I think that's what we're
actually doing, becausebusiness is hard yeah, right,
like all of it is hard.
Sales is hard, you know.
(21:56):
Production is hard Like all ofit is hard.
Managing cashflow is hard yeah,like all of these things are.
So we always look for an easybutton and marketers are
probably the best at marketing.
Agencies are probably better atmarketing the easy button than
(22:18):
an accounting firm that mighthelp you, you know, like a
fractional CFO or something likethat.
But we're always looking forthat easy button.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
That's true Totally, and actually that was the
example I was going to use.
Jim, we've man we've workedwith like I think we're on a
third fractional CFO.
We've been through likebookkeeping companies and things
like that.
Bookkeeping companies cool,there's a lot of them Fractional
(22:47):
CFOs we tried a couple over thepast couple of years and now we
have our Rob, who's amazing,he's great, he's the best one
we've had and we're going to bewith him long term.
However, the reason why A bigreason why it's working out so
well is that we are I've neverbeen more involved in it.
Right, like, I meet with Robevery Tuesday, we're texting,
we're calling, like it's youknow, it's top of mind all the
(23:11):
time.
We run all our decisions by him.
In the past, when I was not, asyou know, I just didn't develop
that skill set, I didn't know Ineeded to be involved and the
bookkeeping and the financialaspect of things, even though I
have a finance degree fromcollege, which means basically
nothing, right, because youdon't learn anything.
So you got out in the realworld and really get your teeth
(23:33):
in.
But like I just kind of treatit as an afterthought, like oh
yeah, whenever.
Like I'm just gonna toprocrastinate until the deadline
and then I'll do whatever needsto get done and get off my
plate and go back to creatingcontent.
You know, and it's the samething with marketing, like
you've got to be, you've got tobe more, you've got to be
involved in it, and there is noeasy.
There is no easy button.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And sometimes Verify, right, like there's the.
It makes me think of that trust.
But verify, yeah, like you'renot paying attention, like just
something simple, right, ifyou're not paying attention and
you're just hoping, that's wherethings go off the rails, right,
and we had that from an agencyside of things.
There was a company that wewere working with and their
(24:15):
Facebook ads seemed to be reallygoing well, lots of good, lots
of leads coming through, thingshappening, and then, like six
months later, they paidattention and they were like
these things suck.
And we're like, man, but wait,you're just telling us this now,
like, we've been, like itlooked like because we didn't
(24:38):
have a viewpoint all the waythrough close in their company,
right, and they weren't creatingthat feedback loop of
communication of, hey, wereceived these leads, these ones
were good, these ones, you knowwe set appointments on those.
We closed those from last week.
You know there wasn't a goodfeedback loop and without that
good feedback loop, yourfractional CFO can't help you
(25:01):
make adjustments on the.
You know, as you're going along, if you, you know, if you're
not talking to your productionmanager on a regular basis,
right, like you're probablygoing to run into some issues,
right, like, if you're nottalking to your sales team and
they're just out in the fielddoing whatever, you're going to
have problems.
So I love that concept right.
So now let's get into that alittle bit.
(25:23):
What should people know?
Because it makes me think of.
I did a fair amount of realestate investing from 08 to 13
and buying foreclosed propertiesand fixing them up, and I GC'd
all my own projects and in thebeginning, every house that I
did, I learned a trade.
So I did drywall in one, whichsucks.
(25:45):
Don't do drywall, joe, if youdon't.
If you haven't done drywall,don't do drywall.
It's the worst thing ever.
Painting is terrible.
I hate painting.
I really realized plumbing.
I've done electrical.
I've done so many trades but Ididn't do them because I wanted
to learn the trade and becomegood at the trade.
I learned it so that I knewwhat I was paying for.
(26:09):
I think that there's a gap there, that in small business
ownership and with roofingcontractors included in that
right, is that we have a gap ofknowledge and instead of
learning enough to have anintelligent conversation to be
able to verify those results,we're kind of leaving it up to,
we're just pushing it off.
(26:29):
We're trying to hit that easybutton.
What do you guys?
How do you guys train thecontractors that work with you
or their marketing managers?
What are some of the skillsetsthat they need to learn to be
effective at measuring theirmarketing results?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
That's a perfect setup, jim, and yeah.
So if you, if you had thishouse that you bought and you
were flipping it and you said toall these you know some
contractor buddies that you hadhey guys show, you had hey guys
show up on December 15th, here'sthe address and do your thing,
just do your thing.
Call me when it's done.
They're going to do something.
(27:08):
Right, bunch of guys runningaround, they're going to do
something, but the chances of itcoming out well or coming out
as you had envisioned are very,very small.
But awesome that you wentthrough that whole process to
learn like okay, well, here'show long it takes to frame a
house or drywall or paint or dothe rough electrical, whatever
(27:29):
that is, so that you knew how tocollaborate with them.
And when they were taking ninedays to do a two-day job, you
can be like hey bro, I knowthat's not a nine-day job, let's
have a conversation about it.
Same thing with marketing.
Right, roofing company owner,contracting company owner is
like all right, great, I'mwilling to spend money on
marketing.
Cool, I'm going to hire theFacebook ads guy.
(27:51):
I'm going to hire this guy todo the website.
I'm going to hire this guy todo direct mail.
We need a Google thing.
Oh yeah, this guy called meabout some billboards.
They have a special.
I signed up for some billboards.
Okay, now you have this roofingcompany owner who's hired all
these effectively, like themarketing subcontractors, but he
doesn't know what he just paidfor.
He doesn't know how to measurethe results, he doesn't know
(28:12):
what to expect in terms of like.
Okay, seo should take, you know, a long time, whereas Google
ads you could probably getresults, you know, pretty
quickly.
He doesn't really know any ofthat.
So our whole model, or ourwhole, one of our big education
points, is that you, as thecontracting company, need to be
the general contractor of yourown marketing.
Just like Jim was GCing thosehouses that he was flipping, you
(28:34):
need to be the GC, so you don'tneed to know how to pull all
the levers and turn all thedials no-transcript creating the
(29:05):
game plan, creating themarketing strategy, creating the
budget, hiring the subs,meeting with them regularly,
holding them accountable,reviewing reports, reviewing the
work that was done, makingstrategy adjustments and really
driving that ship.
So that concept of being thegeneral contractor of your own
marketing doesn't mean that youcan't hire a marketing agency.
Yes, certainly hire those subsright, because you can't do
(29:29):
everything yourself.
But you understand that youhave control over that and
everything's being done inalignment with your vision and
your brand.
And if you're a company that'sreally focused on like, you know
that that kind of premium brandand you want to sell on value
and you're not the cheapest guy.
But then you hire the Facebookads guy and he's putting out
these crummy ads that are likethousand dollars off your next
(29:52):
roof or you know $6,000 roof,you know guaranteed Like.
Does that align with, like, thebrand that you want to build?
Probably not.
So that's a whole other part ofit is controlling that brand
messaging.
But, yeah, being that generalcontractor of your own marketing
someone, in addition, otherthan the owner, should be.
If you're a small company,maybe that's a spouse, an office
(30:15):
admin who's spending 10 hours aweek on marketing whatever that
is for you, as you grow intothat multimillion dollar company
, look to hire that full-timein-house marketing person that's
really going to drive that ship.
Does that answer your question?
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Yeah, that's great.
I love the idea of just sendall the subs out on the same day
and see what happens.
Right, you didn't pick carpet,you didn't pick paint colors.
You didn't tell them no, we'regoing to take this wall out and
open up the living space.
We didn't say this is whatflooring goes in the kitchen,
(30:48):
this is what goes in thebathroom.
That's a great analogy in howthis should work.
You said a couple of thingsthere about hiring a marketing
person or having someone on yourteam.
That is that, like, this istheir job.
Right, they own this metric onyour scorecard, if we want to
throw it in EOS terms.
Right, like, someone has to ownthe metric, and and if it is
(31:08):
you, you know it's just likeeverything else you want to be
working your way out of thoseseats If that's not your core
competency, right?
One thing you said waspart-time.
I think a lot of people forgetthat.
Some people can.
You can hire someone part-timesometimes.
Right, like you don't have tohire a full-time $80,000 a year.
(31:31):
You know marketing and I don'tknow what marketing managers you
know salaries are usually.
Maybe you could speak to that alittle bit too of what you're
seeing in the marketplace.
But, man, you might be able tojust hire someone 10 hours a
week, five hours a week, youknow like to just do certain
tasks.
Make sure the social media isgoing out consistently.
(31:53):
Hey, give it.
Throwing some ideas around andthen measuring what the you know
, how your SEO is progressingand how your Facebook ads are
doing or what like.
I think that's a great nuggetfor people is that we always
look at hiring full-time.
But if you're early, if you'rein earlier stages, you might be
able to just get that part-timeperson to come on in.
(32:15):
What are, what are, what are,what are people?
What is it?
What would be the differentlevels of a marketing manager
and what type of compensationranges are you seeing for them?
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, thanks, jim, for opening people's eyes to
that part.
That's so scary, especially asa as a younger company, and that
might be your first hire I was.
We have a prospective clientwho who was kind of going
through that and he was reallylike just really hesitating and
finally I asked him like hey,man, is this, would this be your
(32:47):
first ever like W2 employeehire?
And he was like yeah, I waslike okay, now I get why, like
you're so hesitant abouteverything, which is completely
normal Because, like taking onoverhead, especially like going
into the winter like dude,that's, that's scary.
Regardless of whatever sizebusiness you're at, you know
(33:07):
your larger business you want tohire higher level people.
Like you know, at the beginningof this thing I said we brought
on a few higher level people inNovember.
That's scary, that's increasedoverhead Right.
So totally we're right therewith you.
So, yeah, if you're, say, under, say, 3 million bucks a year,
that part-time person might makesense.
(33:27):
We've had clients hire theirkid who's in college or just
graduated college.
Or we've had one clientactually she was on our webinar
this morning this guy hired hismom.
His mom is retired and shedoesn't want a full-time job but
she works 15 hours a week orwhatever that is.
That could be an office adminperson.
(33:47):
I don't advise that becausewhen that office admin person
gets busy in the spring, theirpriority is always going to be
answer the phone, send outcontracts, collect money which
there probably should be thosethings right.
Marketing is going to fall tothe bottom of that.
We've seen it over and over.
So someone that is dedicated tomarketing someone's waking up
(34:09):
every day and thinking about,hey, how are we going to get
more people to know about ourcompany today than knew about us
yesterday?
And that person doesn't need tobe a marketing guru by any
means.
That person needs to be corevalue aligned.
That person needs to becoachable.
They don't have an ego, they'renot territorial, which means if
you're going to work with amarketing agency, they're not
(34:30):
going to be like I know how todo this better than you do.
We've seen that.
Someone that's really open andaligned with that mission.
So whatever that means for yourarea of the country, line with
that mission.
So whatever that means for yourarea of the country.
If that's an hourly thing Idon't really do hourly, I don't
know what the rates might be butfigure out what makes sense and
then from a full-time anywherebetween that $50,000 and $80,000
(34:52):
range per year, depending on,again, where you are in the
country.
You don't need someone thatknows all the marketing things.
That person is going to be aunicorn.
They're going to be runningtheir own company.
They're going to be superexpensive.
You want someone I generally sayyounger.
I don't know if I'm allowed tosay that, but someone younger
has a little bit of marketingexperience, getting coachable,
(35:14):
and then that person can also be, if you're like, all right,
well, I don't think I haveenough marketing for a full-time
person Well, that person can bealso your business development
person that's going to your BNImeetings or chamber of commerce
meetings.
They're meeting with realtors,meeting with insurance agents,
going to the networking eventsin town.
As the owner, like Jim said,you need to fire yourself from
(35:36):
some of those things so you canfocus on being the leader.
So a lot of times our clientswill utilize a hybrid model
where it's like a marketingcoordinator slash, like
community relations person andthey become the face of your
business.
So that's a really attractiveoption as well.
And then you can compensatethat person with like a base
plus, like some kind ofperformance performance pay.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
I think it's a good point what you said about that.
If you get someone on your teamthat says, well, I could do
this better than the company youhire.
You're not looking for someonein most of these cases, in most
cases, to do the work, to do theSEO, to run your ads maybe
(36:19):
running your Facebook ads orsomething like that, but maybe
not your Google ads, becausethat's to me it's a very
specific skill set, you know andso, but one of the things that
we always had, the times we hadfriction with marketing managers
at Rufa Marketers was when themarketing manager felt that they
needed to justify theirexistence, their existence, and
(36:49):
so I would recommend that inyour company culture that they
don't have to feel like they'llget fired if the agency is
underperforming oroverperforming.
Their job is to measure themetrics and help to determine
what and to help create thatgood feedback loop with the
people that you hire to do someof those things.
Like I said, if no one'smonitoring what the results of
(37:09):
some of these performance-basedadvertising efforts are, that's
a problem.
So you need someone on top ofthat.
But creating that feedback loophelps the people that you hire
in those roles to develop bettercampaigns, to optimize
campaigns to, you know, to doall of those things.
So I think it's a companyculture thing and making sure
(37:32):
that they don't feel worriedabout their job in these
scenarios.
I've always, those were alwaysthe friction moments for us, and
I don't know if you can thinkback to your agency days
friction moments for us, and Idon't know if you can think back
to your agency days.
It's been a while now, but like, like that to me seems like
when there's an adversarialrelationship and I would assume
that, like, if you have anadversarial relationship with
(37:53):
your subs, that probably createsfriction too right.
Like it's the adversarialrelationship with these, with
the partners that you create inyour business, is not, it's not
the way to go into arelationship, it's not the best
relationships.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yeah, totally.
I mean, we see that Right.
So a you know we providemarketing training, so we might
be talking with a prospectiveclient who's a roofing company.
They have an in-house marketingmanager, marketing coordinator,
and then you know, we, and thenwe might get on that sales call
and you could see, themarketing coordinator is a
little bit territorial,defensive, like well, I don't
(38:33):
need contractor dynamics becauseI'm the marketing person.
I know they don't say that, butyou get that vibe.
Yeah, get the vibe.
Yeah.
That comes down to.
That's a you know more macrokind of issue as far as, like,
you have the right person that'saligned with your values,
aligned with, like, the visionof where the company's going,
because if he or she is going tobe offensive like that and
territorial, then then they'regoing to hold back your growth.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
So, yeah, that's kind of different within your
culture, have a culture of, ofcontinuous improvement you know,
you know and and and for thethat.
You know some of therelationships might work out,
might not.
You may use the newsubcontractor and it just
doesn't work.
You don't like them right.
The same way that you may hiresomeone to do your Facebook ads
(39:16):
and you may not.
It may not work out, but youstill.
But you don't want to start offin an adversarial way.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
So yeah, so a concrete example of that is in
our company.
Sydney Corral is our marketingdirector.
So, like inside the marketingdepartment, like I report to her
, but she, we run on EOS, wehave a scorecard, we have our
marketing meeting every Mondayand she brings the scorecard and
she'll be like all right, well,we were running this Facebook
and she runs the Facebook ads.
So she'll be like all right,we've been running this Facebook
(39:44):
and she runs the Facebook ad.
So she'll be like all right,we've been running this Facebook
ad campaign for about a monthnow.
You know we were trying to giveit a little bit more time to
see if it got some traction, butultimately it just was not
performing.
Our cost per lead was, you knowthis and way above our
threshold, and for that reason Iturned it off and we're going
to, you know kind of regroup andshe's able to present that to
(40:05):
our team and and not in a waythat she's like, man, I really
messed up that campaign.
No, it's just, it's testing.
Like I shot.
I recorded 10 videos yesterdayat a studio here in new jersey.
We had a lot of fun.
I think the videos are going toturn out like good.
They're going to be part of ourfacebook ad campaign for q1.
But I said in our team slackyesterday, I'm like I think we
shot some really good videos.
The market will tell us, we'llsee.
You know, if they bomb, likeI'm not going to take that
(40:29):
personally, we're just going togo back to the drawing board and
see what we can learn from thatfor next time.
So I think that's another point, maybe getting off topic here,
but no, I was thinking the samething.
A lot of companies will youknow they'll try something like
that.
It won't work.
And they're like, ah, throughmarketing Facebook doesn't work.
Like I'm done, I'm just goingto go back to banging on doors
because I know that works.
Well, it's like you know, ifyou get in a car accident, it
(40:53):
doesn't mean that like you'renever going to drive again
because like cars don't work theright way, like it's just you
know, like it's that particularcampaign didn't work.
So, yeah, just that's anotherpoint I want to make.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
That's a big thing, Like the expectations of
different marketing channels.
Is something in that?
Marketing is not an exactscience, right?
Like I remember being incollege and in an economics
class and one of my one of thethings that I got from the
instructor was like, yeah,economics is not an exact
science.
This isn't right Like, and it'snot an exact science because we
(41:27):
can't predict consumer behavior.
It's very similar in marketing,right Like.
As we went through the electionthis year, you know consumer
behaviors changed based on whatthey felt that the election
results may or may not be, andlike there's so many things.
You could have a killerFacebook ad, but if people
aren't in buy mode at that time,right Like, it might not work
(41:52):
out well.
So have proper expectations.
And I think that's back to ourlearning process.
Right, we just have to knowenough, right, and we have to
know enough to say, okay, that'sworking, that's not working.
When to move those dials, whatare some key metrics?
Maybe a few key metrics thatpeople might want to measure
(42:14):
around, just to know if thingsare working or not, and you
could do it by marketing channel.
You could do it however youwant to think about it hitting
channel.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
You could do it, however you want to think about
it.
Yeah, so I'm just thinking of,like the scorecard that we help
our clients.
We have a few differenttemplates, depending on how
sophisticated a client might bein terms of how long they've
been doing marketing.
But, yeah, ideally by channelright, especially if you're
doing paid ads, you're doingGoogle PPC, you're doing Google
local service ads, meta adslet's use those as an example.
(42:45):
You want to look at your costper lead from each channel and
then, like Jim you said before,you want to take that lead as
far as you can.
So you're at cost per lead.
And maybe, if you're doingmarketing qualified lead and
then you're doing salesqualified lead, so you don't
just want leads, you want salesqualified leads, whatever your
qualification criteria is.
(43:06):
So what's our cost per SQLsales qualified lead?
What's our cost per appointment?
What's our cost per signedcontract?
What's the dollar value ofthose contracts that came from,
like Facebook ads, for example?
So you might have 10 leads thatcame from your Facebook ad
campaign.
Eight of them might be salesqualified, six of them might be
turning into appointments.
(43:26):
Your close rate is 50%, soyou're selling three.
Your average ticket is $20K, so$60,000 came from that
particular ad campaign, $60,000of revenue.
Again, ideally, you're lookingat gross profit.
So you're looking at whatever$30,000 gross profit.
Just keep it simple.
So you got 30 grand grossprofit from you know you spent a
(43:49):
thousand dollars on Facebookads.
Is that?
Is that within your acceptablerange?
Great, like, just keep runningthat.
Or increase your ad spend ifit's working so well.
And then, if it's, you know,google, for example.
We were talking about this.
I think before we hit record,you want to look at, like, what
campaigns or what ads areactually producing those leads.
So a lot of times it's verytypical for a lot of marketing
agencies that aren't as good asrefer marketers.
(44:10):
Well, you know, marketingagencies love to take credit for
for, you know, for anythingthey can and then push blame for
anything they they don't wantto get blamed for.
And I say that like kind oftongue in cheek.
There's some great marketing,awesome marketing agency can
change your freaking life.
Like no, no exaggeration like no, no exaggeration.
(44:31):
But that being said, you knowthere's we have we have clients,
roofing companies.
I'll come into our trainingprogram and you know one of the
things we do is a full blownaudit of everything that's going
on.
All right, you're spending thisis an example from this past
summer One of our roofingcompany clients in Orlando.
You're spending $10,000 a monthon Google Ads.
All right, let's look into that.
(44:51):
All right, well, most of theleads that you're generating are
branded searches.
So, in other words, people aresearching for dynamic roofing as
an example, and that's howthey're clicking on that ad.
They might see billboards,trucks, they might know you,
they might be your best friendfrom the gym.
They're just looking for yourfreaking phone number.
They're Googling your companyname.
The first result there is an ad.
(45:13):
They don't even know that.
They just click on it becausethey're on their phone, that
sort of thing.
And then you're paying for that,so that your 10 grand a month
most of the 80% of those leadsare people that are already
searching for you anyway.
In effect, you're paying foryour best friend at the gym to
become a lead.
So that example this summer waslike hey, why don't you try to
turn off your ads for a monthand see what happens and like
(45:36):
their lead flow did not decrease.
I'm not saying that's alwaysthe case.
Google ads can work extremelywell if you have them dialed in
and you're really like on top ofthem.
But a lot of times you know youhave to look at that like, you
have to get that granular to see, because your agency might be
like yeah, you generated, youknow, we got you 20 leads a
month this week, this month fromGoogle ads Great yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
You know, if 16 of them are already going to find
you and call you anyway, likethen your cost per lead is way
higher.
It's four times higher than youthought it would be.
So, yeah, getting into those,getting granular on things, but
just the learning, just knowingthose basic kind of things,
right, like knowing those basickind of things.
Where do you see along acustomers or, I'm sorry, along a
contractors, like the stages ofbusiness as they're going
through, maybe their startupphase, their scaling phase,
their sustainability phase, asthey're going into these?
(46:31):
What?
What marketing channels do yousee or do you feel are the most
important in the in the earlystage, kind of in that scaling
middle stage, and then whenthey're, when they're like, oh,
this is where we want, we'remaintaining this $7 million
company, this is where we wantto be, we don't want to get any
bigger or smaller than this.
What marketing channels do yousee as some of the most
(46:55):
important at each of thosestages?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
All right, we could do a whole episode on this, but
I'll try to keep it succinct.
So, disclaimer it's going todepend on your particular
situation.
So you might be starting up aroofing company, that you have
some capital.
It's not your first rodeo.
You have some money saved up.
You have budget to go out andstart.
In more cases than not, it'sthe bootstrap company.
(47:20):
I started bootstrap.
You don't have a ton of money toinvest in a full-blown
marketing strategy, so you'regoing to be putting in your
labor and we hear this a lot,jim, you'll see it in the
Facebook groups like hey, I needa new, who do you recommend for
SEO.
Or we'll even get clients whoare like hey, I need to do SEO,
(47:41):
who should I sign up with?
And I'm like I always like toanswer a question with a
question Like why do you thinkthat you need SEO?
Like how does that play intoyour marketing strategy?
I think they might know a guythat crushes it with SEO, but
that guy's been in business for10 years and you know he's got
like you don't know what's belowthe surface.
Seo, for example, takes a lotof time.
(48:08):
It takes a lot of money, ittakes a lot of patience.
You got to be willing to investin it for a long time before
you see that return.
So SEO is something that wedon't typically.
I mean, yes, there's levels ofeverything right, the basics,
google business profile setup,optimized, website optimized,
all that sort of thing butshould you be doing aggressive
SEO from day one?
I don't believe so that sort ofthing.
But should you be doingaggressive SEO from day one?
I don't believe so.
(48:29):
You can have a lot of tractionby getting your face on video so
faces on video on social media,on Facebook and Instagram
primarily and then backing yourcontent.
Because if you're starting out,you don't have a lot of
followers, you don't have a lotof likes on your pages and
profiles, running some brandawareness ads on Meta, which is
Facebook and Instagram.
So take those videos of yourhandsome or pretty face out
there on the job site and spend$10 a day on some brand
(48:50):
awareness ads in your local fivemile, 10 mile radius and all of
a sudden, you're gettingthousands of people to see your
content, not just the 247followers that you have on your
Facebook page.
So that's a big one.
Make sure you have your youknow clean website, google
business profile dialed in.
You're getting some reviews.
You're getting out there onsocial media consistently, on
Facebook and Instagram, backingsome of that content with some
(49:12):
advertising dollars on meta,that's a really good start.
Of course, making sure that youare over-delivering, providing
a great client experience,earning those referrals, that's
a really good start.
So that could be you as theowner, your spouse, whatever
that is.
And then you get a little bitof traction.
(49:33):
Or that part-time marketingperson to just continue that,
again, you can't hire thatperson if you don't know what
you're doing.
So you got to know it.
Like Jim did the drywall beforehe hired a drywall guy, you got
to buck up and do it.
You just got to do it.
There's no way around it.
You just got to do it, learn alittle bit so that you can hire
that person, be able to leadthem, manage them, hold them
(49:54):
accountable.
And then, yeah, as you grow, Iwould say Again, we have clients
that are doing $2 million ayear that have a full-time
in-house marketing manager.
Generally they're younger ownersin their 20s who really
understand the importance ofthat.
But I would say more generallyyou get to that $5 million a
(50:14):
year range, you're looking tohire that full-time in-house
person, You're getting towardthat $10 million range and you
have that vision Again, thatlonger-term vision.
You know where you're going.
I'm a big fan of hiring forwhere you're going, not where
you're at.
So you get toward that $10million range.
Maybe you look to have thatfull-time in-house video
creative person in addition toyour marketing coordinator.
(50:35):
So now you have two full-timepeople on your team and that's
going to help you get to thatnext level.
So there's so many nuances.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
So many.
But, like you said, we could doat least do an hour on that.
Right, just on that.
But yeah for sure.
But the core, the core of it isis to me, I think, is that,
like the way I refer to it, joe,is the marketing stack right?
So you start doing one thingand you then consistently do
that and then you add somethingto that stack, and then you add
something to that stack and thenyou add some, but it's not
(51:08):
taking the other thing away, inmy opinion.
Right Like, if you, unless, ofcourse, it's it's completely off
the rails Right Like, but youcontinue to build and add to
this stack.
So now it's the old, you knowthe?
How many lines in the water?
Do you have kind of analogy?
Right Like, in the more linesyou have in the water, the more
(51:28):
consistent.
You'll, looking at, may seemlike it's the right thing to do.
Like you said, I know a guy thatcrushes it in this, right Like.
(51:49):
I know yeah, I met a guy down atan event and they crush it at
Facebook ads, they crush it atSEO, they crush it with
billboards, they crush it withwhatever.
But it might not be right foryour company and I think you
should look at your team, andwhat we were talking about off
camera is.
An example of this is if youhave a door-to-door sales team
(52:12):
and they're knocking a storm, afresh storm, and you get a
Facebook ad lead that comes inacross town or a Google ads lead
that comes in across town, Idon't think that sales rep is
gonna jump in the truck anddrive across town.
Or a Google ads lead that comesin across town, I don't think
that sales rep is going to jumpin the truck and drive across
town for that.
They may pretend that they did,yeah Right.
Their follow-up may not be asdiligent on that lead across
(52:36):
town because they are focused onthat next door where that fresh
storm is.
What are your thoughts on howto use the right marketing
channels for the team that youhave?
Speaker 2 (52:53):
Yeah, it's a great one.
I would use that phrase,reverse engineer, which is just
basically a fancy way of sayinglike, start with the end in mind
, right?
So go back to that ideal client, ideal project.
What do you want?
You want, you want to.
You're at 2 million.
You want to grow to five, okay,well, those ideal projects for
you are those $20,000,.
(53:13):
You know, shingle replacementswhen?
Where do you want to work Like?
Where are geographically?
Like, where are those you wantto focus on?
Your around your office or yourhome?
Do you want to focus on, like,the higher end of town?
Where do you want to focus?
Focus your efforts?
And then you're going to have,you know, you're going to have,
like, sit down with your teamand it's.
It's not like you're not likethe dictator, right.
(53:35):
It was like, all right, I'mgoing to my black box, I'm going
to do my planning for 2025.
And this is our marketing plan.
Then you're, like, cascading itdown to the team.
I would say, like at a roundtable with your team and talk
that out.
Because, yeah, like you said,that buy-in is key.
(53:57):
Whether you're investing in anew CRM or a video marketing
strategy, you have to have thatbuy-in from your team.
And then you mentioned follow-up.
It's not all about just gettinga bunch of leads in the door.
It's like, hey, how are we, howare we responding to leads?
How are we following up?
What's our long term nurturewith leads that someone inquires
today, on December 11th?
Well, maybe they're not readytoday, but like when they're
ready in April, how are westaying top of mind so that you
(54:18):
know they're calling usautomatically when they're ready
to go?
And so there's companies thatare like some of the I'm just
looking at our clients like theyounger companies, younger
people.
They're like, yeah, like video.
Obviously, I need to get myface on video.
That's going to be our thing.
We're going to crush it onvideo, great.
Maybe you have some othercompanies like yeah, that's not
(54:39):
really our thing.
I would challenge you on that.
But maybe you're doingsomething else.
Maybe you're in Dallas-FortWorth where it's so freaking
saturated that you're going tofocus more on building referral
relationships with commercialproperty owners or realtors or
other people that are spheres ofinfluence for you.
(55:00):
And so the way I look at it islike here's our ideal client,
our ideal prospect.
What do they need to see andbelieve before they reach out to
us to feel comfortable enoughto say hey, jim, I want you guys
to come out and do aninspection or look at my roof,
right.
What do they need to see?
They're going to need to seeyour brand 10, 15 times before
(55:20):
they feel comfortable enough toreach out to you.
What do you want them tobelieve about your company?
You're not the cheapest guy,you're not the low price guy.
You're going to be moreexpensive, you're not going to
be the most expensive, but youmight be in that 70th percentile
, right?
They're going to pay a littlebit more for a great experience.
And then how can you get thatcontent out in front of them?
Like, 90% of the buying decisionis made before a company
(55:42):
reaches out, before a personreaches out to a company for the
first time.
So what kind of questions arethey asking?
Do they want to see an instantroof quote tool on your website?
So all these differentquestions.
But it all starts with, like,who is our ideal client and what
do they need to see and believein order to feel comfortable
enough to reach out to us?
And then you just backfill fromthere.
(56:02):
Enough to reach out to us?
And then you just backfill fromthere.
So it's not easy.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
Sorry guys, it's not the easy button but it's worth
it because very few companiesare going to do that work.
Very few will do that work.
Awesome, joseph Hughes.
It's been a pleasure.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning into theRoofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning in to theRoofing Success Podcast For more
valuable content.
Visit roofingsuccesspodcastcomWhile there, check out our
(56:29):
sponsors for exclusive offers,shop for merchandise and sign up
for our newsletter for industryupdates and tips.
Also join the Roofing SuccessFacebook group to connect with
other professionals and stayupdated on the latest trends.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, like, share
and leave a comment.
Group to connect with otherprofessionals and stay updated
on the latest trends.
(56:50):
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, like, share
and leave a comment.
Your support helps us continueto bring you top industry
insights.
The website link is in thedescription.
Thanks for listening.
How do you go from marketing guesswork to
consistently generating highreturns for your roofing
business?
In this episode, joseph Hughesshares his insights on how
contractors can take control oftheir marketing and stop
spraying and praying for results.
Joseph Hughes is the founder ofContractor Dynamics, a
marketing training company thatempowers roofing contractors to
(00:22):
master their own marketing.
With over a decade ofexperience, joseph has helped
countless businesses demystifyand optimize their marketing
strategies.
Joseph's focus on teachinginstead of doing shows his
commitment to equippingcontractors with the tools they
need to thrive, making him anindispensable voice in the
(00:43):
industry.
Today's episode is packed withactionable strategies to measure
and maximize your marketing ROI.
Let's get started with JosephHughes.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
roofing business.
To help you grow and scale yourroofing business.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
The infamous Joseph Hughes, infamous Whoa, all right
, all right, that's a curve ball.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Let's start it off that way.
Joe, like you know, I love whatyou do in the industry, love
having you on.
We've talked a lot over theyears For those of you that, for
those that don't know JosephHughes, I'm pretty sure our
whole audience knows you.
But what's a little update?
What's an update on JosephHughes and Contractor Dynamics?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Cool, real, quick.
Contractor Dynamics marketingtraining company for the roofing
industry.
So what we do all day, everyday, is we have an amazing team
and we are training roofingcompanies on how to run their
own marketing, how to takecontrol of their own marketing.
So, in contrast to a lot ofmarketing agencies that do the
(01:54):
work for you, we are trainingyou on teaching you how to fish.
We're not selling you the fish.
So I've been in business 11years.
It makes me feel kind of old,but we're still kind of like
that, you know, startup mindset,where we're continually
learning and growing.
And we added a bunch of peopleto our team last month.
(02:15):
So we've got an awesome newsales guy, kevin.
We've got an awesome newintegrator, coo, steve, a new
copywriter.
We added a coach to our teamlast month.
So, yeah, as we kind of finishup 2024, we're getting our new
team members on board.
It's always an interesting timeof year for a business owner
(02:36):
because you're focusing on thenow and finishing up your strong
.
Then you have an eye towardnext year.
So you're kind of like one footin this year, one foot in next
year, trying to do both and justtrying to keep everything
afloat and thriving.
So, yeah, learning and growingliterally every day and blessed
to have an amazing leadershipteam, team of people overall at
(02:59):
CD.
So, yeah, I'm excited to stepmore into the visionary role Now
that we have our new integratorin place, step more into that
visionary role in 2025 and kindof just continue to evolve.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah, it's, a business is an evolution, like
it never stops iterating, right,there is no, and I think we
have to fall in love with thatiteration If we're going to to
do this for the long term right,if we want to be successful for
the long term, it's just alwaysthat iteration, always the next
thing that you need, that youget to learn and implement in
(03:34):
the business, right, it's alwaysa lot of fun.
I mean, you've been in themarketing space for a long time.
We came up knowing each otherin the marketing space.
I wanted to talk to you becauseI think that a lot of
contractors struggle withmaximizing the results of their
marketing, and so let's startwith that how do you maximize
(03:58):
the results or maximize yourreturn on investment from your
marketing efforts?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Man, that's the multi , not even the million dollar
question, the multi-milliondollar question, Because it's so
common.
I'm sure everyone listening,watching is like man, yeah, I
don't know, I really don't know.
Like, we're in December rightnow.
We're recording this.
Okay, I've spent some.
I spent this amount of money onmarketing this year.
Maybe some people don't evenknow which was me before.
(04:26):
We had our fractional CFO whokind of like, hey, this is what
you guys have been spending.
I'm like, oh wow, All thatstuff adds up Two grand a month
here, four grand a month there.
Before you know it, you'respending more money on marketing
than you ever expected becausethere's no one at the helm of
that ship.
It's just like throwing a bunchof things out there.
(04:46):
We call it spray and pray.
Right, Spray a bunch of thingsout there, pray that like
something works.
Um, and that's not a goodstrategy because even if
something does work, like youdon't know what's working and
what's not there's that oldmarketing saying that you
probably know, Jim, it's uh, uh,I think it's John Wanamaker
back in the mid-1900s.
He said half of my advertisingspend is not working.
(05:11):
Problem is, I'm just not surewhich half, and it's so true.
So there's a lot that goes intothat.
I forget the question, man,I'll just be honest.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
No, that's right, You're on the right track here
and it's.
I think that that's what it is,the, the, you know, maximizing
the return on investment of yourmarketing dollars really starts
with understanding yourmarketing Right, and and I think
that you you made a point therethat was, you know, even to
that old adage of 50% of mymarketing is working, but I
(05:46):
don't know what 50% is working.
And a lot of times contractorsdon't even know, they don't know
a hundred percent of what'sworking or what's not working.
They don't like and that's abig struggle, and I think that's
the conversation that we wantedto have is to this man like
first, what are what do goodresults look like?
(06:09):
Do people even know what?
What good results look like?
What you know?
You know, you've, you'vecoached a lot of contractors and
help them, help them set upwith a marketing manager in
their business and and workedalong the way.
How do you, how would you tellthe way?
How would you define to acontractor?
(06:29):
Maybe we'll start on a moremacro level, but how do we know
if our marketing is working?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Man that's great For everything that we do, whether
it's we were just talking withour CFO yesterday about this
digital marketing specialist wewant, want to hire in Q1, and
he's like, okay, like what, whatdoes success look like for this
person and how are youmeasuring it?
Cfo is just, you know, lookingto justify every, you know every
line on him, right?
So like, all right, well, thisis what success looks like for
(06:59):
this person.
Here's how we're going tomeasure it.
Same thing with marketing whatdoes success look like and how
are we going to measure that?
So that can come in differentforms.
So, with marketing, some thingsare trackable down to the penny.
So say, google ads, lsa,facebook ads, things like that
(07:19):
that are more like directresponse in nature I put a
dollar in, I'm going to get $10out, whatever that equation
might be.
Then there's other things thatare more qualitative.
I'm running brand awareness,social media ads, we're doing
direct mail, we have our truckswrapped, we have our community
event, we're sponsoring theLittle League team, we're radio,
tv billboards, you name it.
There's some of those thingsthat aren't attributable to a
(07:42):
particular lead, right?
So Mrs Jones calls in hey,how'd you hear about us?
I don't know.
I see you guys everywhere inthe neighborhood.
I've been living in the areafor a while.
It's not like she clicked onthis particular Facebook ad, so
I'm interested to hear yourfeedback on that too.
So there's that quantitativelike yes, there's that dollar
and cents ROI.
But then there's also thatqualitative return, which is
(08:04):
like okay, we're getting ourwe're having warmer appointments
, which means our close rate ishigher, because people have seen
us over and over and we're notjust any old roofing contractor
in Minneapolis Our close rateshigher.
We're getting beat up on price.
Last, our gross, our averagegross profit, is higher.
We're getting more referrals,more reviews, things like that.
So those are qualitative innature, which is why you need to
(08:28):
be looking at everything on aregular basis.
We get into tracking in a littlebit.
So how do you measure that?
It's going to be your overallat the end of the quarter, end
of the year.
It's like what did we spend interms of marketing for this year
?
And that's going to be yourpeople, that's going to be your
offline stuff, your swag, yourtruck wraps, your yard signs,
(08:50):
your online marketing.
What do we spend in total?
What was our revenue?
Is that within our acceptablerange of what we want to spend.
We can get into particularnumbers there.
So you have to look at it on amicro level in terms of the
leads that you generated, butalso as a team on that more
macro level.
And then, yeah, did we open upnew opportunities from our
(09:10):
marketing?
More relationships withrealtors or insurance agents or
GCs or whatever else isimportant to you other people
that can feed you business.
And marketing is also a keyplayer in terms of recruiting
and attracting talent.
So how many people do we needto hire next year?
How is our marketing going toplay into that?
(09:31):
So, if you're going to use yourmarketing to attract a million
dollar sales rep, well, yeah,you want to make sure you do a
good job at your marketing.
Be intentional about that,because you're not just
marketing for a $20,000 roof,like you're marketing for
someone that's going to producea million dollars in revenue.
That's marketing as well.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
There's so many things and this is, I think, the
core of it.
First is that people don't evenknow what to expect from their
marketing sometimes, and I thinkthat if you don't know what
success looks like, you have ahard time making good decisions
(10:09):
as to what you should be doing.
I always think that if youdon't know, you have to guess at
first.
Right, if you're newer to amarketing channel say Facebook
ads or something like that man,you're going to have to guess as
to what a successful lead costmight be, or customer
(10:31):
acquisition cost or long-termvalue of that customer.
So in setting up, let's talk alittle bit about that, like
those getting set up tounderstand if this is really
what should we be doing or not.
Right, like, if you don't likewhat you had said, let's go back
and see what we spent over thequarter and did it work?
That would be a laggingindicator, right?
(10:54):
Maybe let's look at some thingsthat we can look at as leading
indicators and maybe somedecisions that people would need
to make.
So I think first off is likehey, man, do you know what an
acceptable customer acquisitioncost would be?
Maybe they start there.
Do you think that's a goodstarting point.
Is there a different place thatthey could start?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah, the acquisition cost is fantastic.
Even a step before that isgetting clarity on.
A step before that is gettingclarity on who is my ideal
client, what's my ideal project,right, and what is that in
terms of?
So my ideal project is anasphalt roof replacement.
(11:36):
I'm in New Jersey, so theaverage ticket is going to be
$20,000, right, that's our idealproject.
Our ideal client is that couplein their 40s that have, they're
busy, they don't have a lot oftime, they have money to spend,
they appreciate value, they'renot looking for the cheapest guy
, they're looking for a greatexperience.
(11:58):
So we have our ideal client, ourideal project, that $20,000
asphalt shingle replacement.
Our gross profit on that is,you name it, 12 asphalt shingle
replacement.
Our gross profit on that is,you know, you name it, 12 grand.
Just say you know round number.
So our average gross profit is12.
What are we willing to?
You know what's our acceptablerange for, like what we're
willing to pay to acquire one ofthose, one of those roofs,
(12:19):
right?
So you're going to have to findyour range from there.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
So, so, yeah, I love that you said range.
Yeah, I love that you saidrange, because that's I always
have.
Have have put a dollar amounton it, but I love that that
there's a range, because therereally is a range, right.
Um, and, and I want everyonelistening to understand that the
least amount possible is not anacceptable range.
(12:43):
Yes, the least amount possibleis not an acceptable range.
Yes, yeah, that's notacceptable.
Do not say as the least amountpossible that's what I want to
pay for a customer, that's whatI want my customer acquisition
cost to be.
You know really what is, man,if we're at $600 to acquire a
(13:03):
customer boy, we're doing reallygood, right, but if we get up
to $1,200, now it starts to geta little.
You know, we got to make somedecisions, right, like you know.
So I love the idea of the range, man, that's a good point for
everyone to think about.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Well, yeah, and two things there.
Well, one of the ratios that wetrack in our company is cap to
think about.
Well, yeah, and two thingsthere.
One of the ratios that we trackin our company is cap to LTV.
So that's customer acquisitioncost to a lifetime gross profit.
So, and for us it's a littledifferent because we're kind of
a recurring business model butlike as a contractor, what is
that customer acquisition costas a percentage of that value,
(13:42):
that gross profit of 12 grand?
You know you could use abenchmark of like four to one.
So in that case you'd bewilling to pay maybe up to
$3,000 to get a $12,000 grossprofit roof.
Again, 20,000 top line, justkind of rough numbers.
It's going to have to makesense for you and your business
and talk to your CFO and thingslike that.
But understanding what thatbenchmark looks like for you.
(14:05):
And if you're over that 4 to 1ratio, great, because you're
spending less to acquire acustomer.
If you're under that, thenyou're going to spend too much
on that.
And then, jim, what you said islike so many people, I guess,
when you don't understandmarketing, you view it as an
expense, right Like a costcenter.
How little can I spend onmarketing this year?
(14:26):
How can we drop our marketingspend?
But that's kind of the wrongmindset.
And I'm not just saying thatlike, spend more money with
Contractor Dynamics or anythinglike that.
But it's like if you want toscale, if you want to grow your
company from 5 to 8 million,marketing is going to be a lever
and you got to understand howto use that lever so you can say
(14:48):
, yeah, we're going to increaseour marketing spend next year,
we want to grow by 60%, which isa big jump from five to 8
million.
What, what more?
What do we need to do more ofLike.
And if you don't understandwhat's working, you can't like,
you can't scale that Right.
So I think that's that's amindset thing A lot of
contractors have.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Definitely.
I was in the real estate andmortgage industry for many years
and I met this realtor in themid-2000s out in Denver who had
come from a different professionand was just starting their
real estate career and they hada little bit of money to invest
in their marketing and theybought every Zillow zip code, so
all of the leads and all of theZillow zip codes in the
Northern Metro area of Denver.
This was an aha moment for me,joe.
I was like wait, you're doingwhat?
(15:33):
With the intention that theyknew that homeowners move every
five to seven years.
So the goal was to buy as manycustomers every year, not for
what they made in profit on themthat year, for what they will
make in profit on them in thefuture.
And I was like whoa, yeah,there's not many people that'll
(15:57):
do that right, like you.
Really, truly, the way I put itis if you have faith in the
outcome, you'll execute.
Right.
I put it is if you have faithin the outcome, you'll execute
right, like and so if you don'thave faith like that, that
individual had faith that thatthey would.
But it was faith in theirexecution.
It was faith that they wouldcontinue to follow up and make
(16:18):
that homeowner continue to knowthat they're the realtor of
choice.
Right, when you know they'regoing to, they're not just going
to do the transaction and thenmove on and never talk to them
again.
Right, they wanted to build along-term relationship with that
person.
And now, not only might thatperson move, in five to seven
years their neighbor might bemoving, their cousin might want
(16:41):
to buy or sell a house.
Right Like?
There's such a long-term valueout of customers that I think if
you don't have that long-termvision, boy, it's hard.
Right?
If I told you, joe man, if youinvested a million dollars this
year, that 10 years from now youwould have a $50 million
(17:04):
business, like I think everyonewould you know, like with great
profit margins let's add thatcaveat in for all the haters,
you know, all the commenters onYouTube.
Right, like this, like, if youreally, if you were, if someone
told you if you really made thisinvestment but you had to
execute on all of the littlethings along the way, would you
really do it?
(17:25):
And so I think that comes downto that CAC LTV conversation is,
man, if you really have faithin the outcome of your people,
if you know that your sales repsI've had this conversation on
some RSRA calls.
Recently I was talking to oneowner who he has three or four
sales reps and one of his salesreps he knows that if that sales
(17:48):
rep goes out to a neighborhood.
If they get one job in theneighborhood, that guy's getting
five, like four or five rightaway, right off of that one
neighbor, and because of thefaith in that one individual boy
you can pour marketing dollarsat that person.
Now he has that.
Don't ask as well for thosereferrals.
(18:10):
It's harder to pour money intothose reps, right?
So the long-term value might bea little bit different between
your sales reps too.
So knowing your business wellis probably a good thing.
I know I kind of rambled onthere, but I guess that leads me
to how much of an investmentshould a company make in
(18:34):
marketing when they're makingthat educated guess as to what
the outcome might be.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Sure, I love that.
You talked about the referralthing.
That was on my mind as well.
Like, if you're going to, ifyou know that for every job you
get, you're going to get 1.2referrals from every customer,
then that lowers that customeracquisition cost.
So, yeah, awesome point there.
As far as, like, how much didyou spend Invest?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Let's not say spend right, let's talk about
investing in marketing.
You got me, you got me yes.
We still do it ourselves and weknow and we-.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
One of our core values that we're impeccable
with our words.
So thanks for making meimpeccable.
So if you Google that questionand, jim, I know you have a lot
of experience with this too youranswer may vary, but I'm the
guest, so I'm right now For sure.
So if you Google it, you knowhow much.
You know what.
Should my marketing spend beper percentage of revenue?
(19:27):
You're going to find like fiveto eight percent in maintain
mode, 10% and over if you wantto really grow.
And I think like a lot of maybeyou know greedy marketing
professionals will be like yeah,you got to spend.
You know 10% plus, especiallyif they're getting paid on a
percentage of your ad spend,which a lot of agencies of
record will do.
So you got to be aware of thoseincentives.
(19:48):
Margins and contracting androofing are great.
Should you spend 10%?
I don't believe so.
Our clients are more on anaverage of like 5%.
The caveat there is thatthey're spending, they're
investing again, investing timeinto their marketing.
So it's not just like hey, I'm aroofing company owner, I don't.
I know marketing is important.
I don't want to figure it out,I'm too busy, I'm just going to
(20:09):
pay Jim to like, make magichappen Right.
So if that's your mentality,yes, you're going to overspend
because you're trying to payyour way out of your marketing
problem.
You're not taking ownership ofit and you've got to take
ownership of it.
In no other I don't know wedon't work in other industries
outside roofing but in no otherindustry is there such a
(20:30):
widespread belief that like, hey, I'm just going to put my
customer acquisition in thehands of someone else.
I'm not going to take ownershipof that.
It's just, it's amateur hourand I get passionate about it
because I see people just likeit's just an education moment.
You got to take ownership ofthat your ability to generate
customers.
So 5% of your target revenueallocates toward marketing and
(20:54):
then you're investing time in it.
You're creating content, you'recreating a marketing plan,
you're creating a marketingbudget.
You have someone in-house who'shelping you with marketing or
in charge of that marketing.
So it's this time plus moneyinvestment.
It's not just a moneyinvestment.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
For sure, let's call it the easy button, joe, I coach
about 35 agency owners that areall in different niches and
I'll tell you it's very similarfrom type of business to type of
business, from vertical tovertical, from niche to niche.
I think it's a small businessthing, okay, good, I heard a
(21:34):
friend of mine was on a podcastrecently and I heard her talking
about how those were some ofher challenges early on in
business as she was looking forthe easy button.
I think that's what happens,right, I think that's what we're
actually doing, becausebusiness is hard yeah, right,
like all of it is hard.
Sales is hard, you know.
(21:56):
Production is hard Like all ofit is hard.
Managing cashflow is hard yeah,like all of these things are.
So we always look for an easybutton and marketers are
probably the best at marketing.
Agencies are probably better atmarketing the easy button than
(22:18):
an accounting firm that mighthelp you, you know, like a
fractional CFO or something likethat.
But we're always looking forthat easy button.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
That's true Totally, and actually that was the
example I was going to use.
Jim, we've man we've workedwith like I think we're on a
third fractional CFO.
We've been through likebookkeeping companies and things
like that.
Bookkeeping companies cool,there's a lot of them Fractional
(22:47):
CFOs we tried a couple over thepast couple of years and now we
have our Rob, who's amazing,he's great, he's the best one
we've had and we're going to bewith him long term.
However, the reason why A bigreason why it's working out so
well is that we are I've neverbeen more involved in it.
Right, like, I meet with Robevery Tuesday, we're texting,
we're calling, like it's youknow, it's top of mind all the
(23:11):
time.
We run all our decisions by him.
In the past, when I was not, asyou know, I just didn't develop
that skill set, I didn't know Ineeded to be involved and the
bookkeeping and the financialaspect of things, even though I
have a finance degree fromcollege, which means basically
nothing, right, because youdon't learn anything.
So you got out in the realworld and really get your teeth
(23:33):
in.
But like I just kind of treatit as an afterthought, like oh
yeah, whenever.
Like I'm just gonna toprocrastinate until the deadline
and then I'll do whatever needsto get done and get off my
plate and go back to creatingcontent.
You know, and it's the samething with marketing, like
you've got to be, you've got tobe more, you've got to be
involved in it, and there is noeasy.
There is no easy button.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And sometimes Verify, right, like there's the.
It makes me think of that trust.
But verify, yeah, like you'renot paying attention, like just
something simple, right, ifyou're not paying attention and
you're just hoping, that's wherethings go off the rails, right,
and we had that from an agencyside of things.
There was a company that wewere working with and their
(24:15):
Facebook ads seemed to be reallygoing well, lots of good, lots
of leads coming through, thingshappening, and then, like six
months later, they paidattention and they were like
these things suck.
And we're like, man, but wait,you're just telling us this now,
like, we've been, like itlooked like because we didn't
(24:38):
have a viewpoint all the waythrough close in their company,
right, and they weren't creatingthat feedback loop of
communication of, hey, wereceived these leads, these ones
were good, these ones, you knowwe set appointments on those.
We closed those from last week.
You know there wasn't a goodfeedback loop and without that
good feedback loop, yourfractional CFO can't help you
(25:01):
make adjustments on the.
You know, as you're going along, if you, you know, if you're
not talking to your productionmanager on a regular basis,
right, like you're probablygoing to run into some issues,
right, like, if you're nottalking to your sales team and
they're just out in the fielddoing whatever, you're going to
have problems.
So I love that concept right.
So now let's get into that alittle bit.
(25:23):
What should people know?
Because it makes me think of.
I did a fair amount of realestate investing from 08 to 13
and buying foreclosed propertiesand fixing them up, and I GC'd
all my own projects and in thebeginning, every house that I
did, I learned a trade.
So I did drywall in one, whichsucks.
(25:45):
Don't do drywall, joe, if youdon't.
If you haven't done drywall,don't do drywall.
It's the worst thing ever.
Painting is terrible.
I hate painting.
I really realized plumbing.
I've done electrical.
I've done so many trades but Ididn't do them because I wanted
to learn the trade and becomegood at the trade.
I learned it so that I knewwhat I was paying for.
(26:09):
I think that there's a gap there, that in small business
ownership and with roofingcontractors included in that
right, is that we have a gap ofknowledge and instead of
learning enough to have anintelligent conversation to be
able to verify those results,we're kind of leaving it up to,
we're just pushing it off.
(26:29):
We're trying to hit that easybutton.
What do you guys?
How do you guys train thecontractors that work with you
or their marketing managers?
What are some of the skillsetsthat they need to learn to be
effective at measuring theirmarketing results?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
That's a perfect setup, jim, and yeah.
So if you, if you had thishouse that you bought and you
were flipping it and you said toall these you know some
contractor buddies that you hadhey guys show, you had hey guys
show up on December 15th, here'sthe address and do your thing,
just do your thing.
Call me when it's done.
They're going to do something.
(27:08):
Right, bunch of guys runningaround, they're going to do
something, but the chances of itcoming out well or coming out
as you had envisioned are very,very small.
But awesome that you wentthrough that whole process to
learn like okay, well, here'show long it takes to frame a
house or drywall or paint or dothe rough electrical, whatever
(27:29):
that is, so that you knew how tocollaborate with them.
And when they were taking ninedays to do a two-day job, you
can be like hey bro, I knowthat's not a nine-day job, let's
have a conversation about it.
Same thing with marketing.
Right, roofing company owner,contracting company owner is
like all right, great, I'mwilling to spend money on
marketing.
Cool, I'm going to hire theFacebook ads guy.
(27:51):
I'm going to hire this guy todo the website.
I'm going to hire this guy todo direct mail.
We need a Google thing.
Oh yeah, this guy called meabout some billboards.
They have a special.
I signed up for some billboards.
Okay, now you have this roofingcompany owner who's hired all
these effectively, like themarketing subcontractors, but he
doesn't know what he just paidfor.
He doesn't know how to measurethe results, he doesn't know
(28:12):
what to expect in terms of like.
Okay, seo should take, you know, a long time, whereas Google
ads you could probably getresults, you know, pretty
quickly.
He doesn't really know any ofthat.
So our whole model, or ourwhole, one of our big education
points, is that you, as thecontracting company, need to be
the general contractor of yourown marketing.
Just like Jim was GCing thosehouses that he was flipping, you
(28:34):
need to be the GC, so you don'tneed to know how to pull all
the levers and turn all thedials no-transcript creating the
(29:05):
game plan, creating themarketing strategy, creating the
budget, hiring the subs,meeting with them regularly,
holding them accountable,reviewing reports, reviewing the
work that was done, makingstrategy adjustments and really
driving that ship.
So that concept of being thegeneral contractor of your own
marketing doesn't mean that youcan't hire a marketing agency.
Yes, certainly hire those subsright, because you can't do
(29:29):
everything yourself.
But you understand that youhave control over that and
everything's being done inalignment with your vision and
your brand.
And if you're a company that'sreally focused on like, you know
that that kind of premium brandand you want to sell on value
and you're not the cheapest guy.
But then you hire the Facebookads guy and he's putting out
these crummy ads that are likethousand dollars off your next
(29:52):
roof or you know $6,000 roof,you know guaranteed Like.
Does that align with, like, thebrand that you want to build?
Probably not.
So that's a whole other part ofit is controlling that brand
messaging.
But, yeah, being that generalcontractor of your own marketing
someone, in addition, otherthan the owner, should be.
If you're a small company,maybe that's a spouse, an office
(30:15):
admin who's spending 10 hours aweek on marketing whatever that
is for you, as you grow intothat multimillion dollar company
, look to hire that full-timein-house marketing person that's
really going to drive that ship.
Does that answer your question?
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Yeah, that's great.
I love the idea of just sendall the subs out on the same day
and see what happens.
Right, you didn't pick carpet,you didn't pick paint colors.
You didn't tell them no, we'regoing to take this wall out and
open up the living space.
We didn't say this is whatflooring goes in the kitchen,
(30:48):
this is what goes in thebathroom.
That's a great analogy in howthis should work.
You said a couple of thingsthere about hiring a marketing
person or having someone on yourteam.
That is that, like, this istheir job.
Right, they own this metric onyour scorecard, if we want to
throw it in EOS terms.
Right, like, someone has to ownthe metric, and and if it is
(31:08):
you, you know it's just likeeverything else you want to be
working your way out of thoseseats If that's not your core
competency, right?
One thing you said waspart-time.
I think a lot of people forgetthat.
Some people can.
You can hire someone part-timesometimes.
Right, like you don't have tohire a full-time $80,000 a year.
(31:31):
You know marketing and I don'tknow what marketing managers you
know salaries are usually.
Maybe you could speak to that alittle bit too of what you're
seeing in the marketplace.
But, man, you might be able tojust hire someone 10 hours a
week, five hours a week, youknow like to just do certain
tasks.
Make sure the social media isgoing out consistently.
(31:53):
Hey, give it.
Throwing some ideas around andthen measuring what the you know
, how your SEO is progressingand how your Facebook ads are
doing or what like.
I think that's a great nuggetfor people is that we always
look at hiring full-time.
But if you're early, if you'rein earlier stages, you might be
able to just get that part-timeperson to come on in.
(32:15):
What are, what are, what are,what are people?
What is it?
What would be the differentlevels of a marketing manager
and what type of compensationranges are you seeing for them?
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, thanks, jim, for opening people's eyes to
that part.
That's so scary, especially asa as a younger company, and that
might be your first hire I was.
We have a prospective clientwho who was kind of going
through that and he was reallylike just really hesitating and
finally I asked him like hey,man, is this, would this be your
(32:47):
first ever like W2 employeehire?
And he was like yeah, I waslike okay, now I get why, like
you're so hesitant abouteverything, which is completely
normal Because, like taking onoverhead, especially like going
into the winter like dude,that's, that's scary.
Regardless of whatever sizebusiness you're at, you know
(33:07):
your larger business you want tohire higher level people.
Like you know, at the beginningof this thing I said we brought
on a few higher level people inNovember.
That's scary, that's increasedoverhead Right.
So totally we're right therewith you.
So, yeah, if you're, say, under, say, 3 million bucks a year,
that part-time person might makesense.
(33:27):
We've had clients hire theirkid who's in college or just
graduated college.
Or we've had one clientactually she was on our webinar
this morning this guy hired hismom.
His mom is retired and shedoesn't want a full-time job but
she works 15 hours a week orwhatever that is.
That could be an office adminperson.
(33:47):
I don't advise that becausewhen that office admin person
gets busy in the spring, theirpriority is always going to be
answer the phone, send outcontracts, collect money which
there probably should be thosethings right.
Marketing is going to fall tothe bottom of that.
We've seen it over and over.
So someone that is dedicated tomarketing someone's waking up
(34:09):
every day and thinking about,hey, how are we going to get
more people to know about ourcompany today than knew about us
yesterday?
And that person doesn't need tobe a marketing guru by any
means.
That person needs to be corevalue aligned.
That person needs to becoachable.
They don't have an ego, they'renot territorial, which means if
you're going to work with amarketing agency, they're not
(34:30):
going to be like I know how todo this better than you do.
We've seen that.
Someone that's really open andaligned with that mission.
So whatever that means for yourarea of the country, line with
that mission.
So whatever that means for yourarea of the country.
If that's an hourly thing Idon't really do hourly, I don't
know what the rates might be butfigure out what makes sense and
then from a full-time anywherebetween that $50,000 and $80,000
(34:52):
range per year, depending on,again, where you are in the
country.
You don't need someone thatknows all the marketing things.
That person is going to be aunicorn.
They're going to be runningtheir own company.
They're going to be superexpensive.
You want someone I generally sayyounger.
I don't know if I'm allowed tosay that, but someone younger
has a little bit of marketingexperience, getting coachable,
(35:14):
and then that person can also be, if you're like, all right,
well, I don't think I haveenough marketing for a full-time
person Well, that person can bealso your business development
person that's going to your BNImeetings or chamber of commerce
meetings.
They're meeting with realtors,meeting with insurance agents,
going to the networking eventsin town.
As the owner, like Jim said,you need to fire yourself from
(35:36):
some of those things so you canfocus on being the leader.
So a lot of times our clientswill utilize a hybrid model
where it's like a marketingcoordinator slash, like
community relations person andthey become the face of your
business.
So that's a really attractiveoption as well.
And then you can compensatethat person with like a base
plus, like some kind ofperformance performance pay.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
I think it's a good point what you said about that.
If you get someone on your teamthat says, well, I could do
this better than the company youhire.
You're not looking for someonein most of these cases, in most
cases, to do the work, to do theSEO, to run your ads maybe
(36:19):
running your Facebook ads orsomething like that, but maybe
not your Google ads, becausethat's to me it's a very
specific skill set, you know andso, but one of the things that
we always had, the times we hadfriction with marketing managers
at Rufa Marketers was when themarketing manager felt that they
needed to justify theirexistence, their existence, and
(36:49):
so I would recommend that inyour company culture that they
don't have to feel like they'llget fired if the agency is
underperforming oroverperforming.
Their job is to measure themetrics and help to determine
what and to help create thatgood feedback loop with the
people that you hire to do someof those things.
Like I said, if no one'smonitoring what the results of
(37:09):
some of these performance-basedadvertising efforts are, that's
a problem.
So you need someone on top ofthat.
But creating that feedback loophelps the people that you hire
in those roles to develop bettercampaigns, to optimize
campaigns to, you know, to doall of those things.
So I think it's a companyculture thing and making sure
(37:32):
that they don't feel worriedabout their job in these
scenarios.
I've always, those were alwaysthe friction moments for us, and
I don't know if you can thinkback to your agency days
friction moments for us, and Idon't know if you can think back
to your agency days.
It's been a while now, but like, like that to me seems like
when there's an adversarialrelationship and I would assume
that, like, if you have anadversarial relationship with
(37:53):
your subs, that probably createsfriction too right.
Like it's the adversarialrelationship with these, with
the partners that you create inyour business, is not, it's not
the way to go into arelationship, it's not the best
relationships.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yeah, totally.
I mean, we see that Right.
So a you know we providemarketing training, so we might
be talking with a prospectiveclient who's a roofing company.
They have an in-house marketingmanager, marketing coordinator,
and then you know, we, and thenwe might get on that sales call
and you could see, themarketing coordinator is a
little bit territorial,defensive, like well, I don't
(38:33):
need contractor dynamics becauseI'm the marketing person.
I know they don't say that, butyou get that vibe.
Yeah, get the vibe.
Yeah.
That comes down to.
That's a you know more macrokind of issue as far as, like,
you have the right person that'saligned with your values,
aligned with, like, the visionof where the company's going,
because if he or she is going tobe offensive like that and
territorial, then then they'regoing to hold back your growth.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
So, yeah, that's kind of different within your
culture, have a culture of, ofcontinuous improvement you know,
you know and and and for thethat.
You know some of therelationships might work out,
might not.
You may use the newsubcontractor and it just
doesn't work.
You don't like them right.
The same way that you may hiresomeone to do your Facebook ads
(39:16):
and you may not.
It may not work out, but youstill.
But you don't want to start offin an adversarial way.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
So yeah, so a concrete example of that is in
our company.
Sydney Corral is our marketingdirector.
So, like inside the marketingdepartment, like I report to her
, but she, we run on EOS, wehave a scorecard, we have our
marketing meeting every Mondayand she brings the scorecard and
she'll be like all right, well,we were running this Facebook
and she runs the Facebook ads.
So she'll be like all right,we've been running this Facebook
(39:44):
and she runs the Facebook ad.
So she'll be like all right,we've been running this Facebook
ad campaign for about a monthnow.
You know we were trying to giveit a little bit more time to
see if it got some traction, butultimately it just was not
performing.
Our cost per lead was, you knowthis and way above our
threshold, and for that reason Iturned it off and we're going
to, you know kind of regroup andshe's able to present that to
(40:05):
our team and and not in a waythat she's like, man, I really
messed up that campaign.
No, it's just, it's testing.
Like I shot.
I recorded 10 videos yesterdayat a studio here in new jersey.
We had a lot of fun.
I think the videos are going toturn out like good.
They're going to be part of ourfacebook ad campaign for q1.
But I said in our team slackyesterday, I'm like I think we
shot some really good videos.
The market will tell us, we'llsee.
You know, if they bomb, likeI'm not going to take that
(40:29):
personally, we're just going togo back to the drawing board and
see what we can learn from thatfor next time.
So I think that's another point, maybe getting off topic here,
but no, I was thinking the samething.
A lot of companies will youknow they'll try something like
that.
It won't work.
And they're like, ah, throughmarketing Facebook doesn't work.
Like I'm done, I'm just goingto go back to banging on doors
because I know that works.
Well, it's like you know, ifyou get in a car accident, it
(40:53):
doesn't mean that like you'renever going to drive again
because like cars don't work theright way, like it's just you
know, like it's that particularcampaign didn't work.
So, yeah, just that's anotherpoint I want to make.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
That's a big thing, Like the expectations of
different marketing channels.
Is something in that?
Marketing is not an exactscience, right?
Like I remember being incollege and in an economics
class and one of my one of thethings that I got from the
instructor was like, yeah,economics is not an exact
science.
This isn't right Like, and it'snot an exact science because we
(41:27):
can't predict consumer behavior.
It's very similar in marketing,right Like.
As we went through the electionthis year, you know consumer
behaviors changed based on whatthey felt that the election
results may or may not be, andlike there's so many things.
You could have a killerFacebook ad, but if people
aren't in buy mode at that time,right Like, it might not work
(41:52):
out well.
So have proper expectations.
And I think that's back to ourlearning process.
Right, we just have to knowenough, right, and we have to
know enough to say, okay, that'sworking, that's not working.
When to move those dials, whatare some key metrics?
Maybe a few key metrics thatpeople might want to measure
(42:14):
around, just to know if thingsare working or not, and you
could do it by marketing channel.
You could do it however youwant to think about it hitting
channel.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
You could do it, however you want to think about
it.
Yeah, so I'm just thinking of,like the scorecard that we help
our clients.
We have a few differenttemplates, depending on how
sophisticated a client might bein terms of how long they've
been doing marketing.
But, yeah, ideally by channelright, especially if you're
doing paid ads, you're doingGoogle PPC, you're doing Google
local service ads, meta adslet's use those as an example.
(42:45):
You want to look at your costper lead from each channel and
then, like Jim you said before,you want to take that lead as
far as you can.
So you're at cost per lead.
And maybe, if you're doingmarketing qualified lead and
then you're doing salesqualified lead, so you don't
just want leads, you want salesqualified leads, whatever your
qualification criteria is.
(43:06):
So what's our cost per SQLsales qualified lead?
What's our cost per appointment?
What's our cost per signedcontract?
What's the dollar value ofthose contracts that came from,
like Facebook ads, for example?
So you might have 10 leads thatcame from your Facebook ad
campaign.
Eight of them might be salesqualified, six of them might be
turning into appointments.
(43:26):
Your close rate is 50%, soyou're selling three.
Your average ticket is $20K, so$60,000 came from that
particular ad campaign, $60,000of revenue.
Again, ideally, you're lookingat gross profit.
So you're looking at whatever$30,000 gross profit.
Just keep it simple.
So you got 30 grand grossprofit from you know you spent a
(43:49):
thousand dollars on Facebookads.
Is that?
Is that within your acceptablerange?
Great, like, just keep runningthat.
Or increase your ad spend ifit's working so well.
And then, if it's, you know,google, for example.
We were talking about this.
I think before we hit record,you want to look at, like, what
campaigns or what ads areactually producing those leads.
So a lot of times it's verytypical for a lot of marketing
agencies that aren't as good asrefer marketers.
(44:10):
Well, you know, marketingagencies love to take credit for
for, you know, for anythingthey can and then push blame for
anything they they don't wantto get blamed for.
And I say that like kind oftongue in cheek.
There's some great marketing,awesome marketing agency can
change your freaking life.
Like no, no exaggeration like no, no exaggeration.
(44:31):
But that being said, you knowthere's we have we have clients,
roofing companies.
I'll come into our trainingprogram and you know one of the
things we do is a full blownaudit of everything that's going
on.
All right, you're spending thisis an example from this past
summer One of our roofingcompany clients in Orlando.
You're spending $10,000 a monthon Google Ads.
All right, let's look into that.
(44:51):
All right, well, most of theleads that you're generating are
branded searches.
So, in other words, people aresearching for dynamic roofing as
an example, and that's howthey're clicking on that ad.
They might see billboards,trucks, they might know you,
they might be your best friendfrom the gym.
They're just looking for yourfreaking phone number.
They're Googling your companyname.
The first result there is an ad.
(45:13):
They don't even know that.
They just click on it becausethey're on their phone, that
sort of thing.
And then you're paying for that,so that your 10 grand a month
most of the 80% of those leadsare people that are already
searching for you anyway.
In effect, you're paying foryour best friend at the gym to
become a lead.
So that example this summer waslike hey, why don't you try to
turn off your ads for a monthand see what happens and like
(45:36):
their lead flow did not decrease.
I'm not saying that's alwaysthe case.
Google ads can work extremelywell if you have them dialed in
and you're really like on top ofthem.
But a lot of times you know youhave to look at that like, you
have to get that granular to see, because your agency might be
like yeah, you generated, youknow, we got you 20 leads a
month this week, this month fromGoogle ads Great yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
You know, if 16 of them are already going to find
you and call you anyway, likethen your cost per lead is way
higher.
It's four times higher than youthought it would be.
So, yeah, getting into those,getting granular on things, but
just the learning, just knowingthose basic kind of things,
right, like knowing those basickind of things.
Where do you see along acustomers or, I'm sorry, along a
contractors, like the stages ofbusiness as they're going
through, maybe their startupphase, their scaling phase,
their sustainability phase, asthey're going into these?
(46:31):
What?
What marketing channels do yousee or do you feel are the most
important in the in the earlystage, kind of in that scaling
middle stage, and then whenthey're, when they're like, oh,
this is where we want, we'remaintaining this $7 million
company, this is where we wantto be, we don't want to get any
bigger or smaller than this.
What marketing channels do yousee as some of the most
(46:55):
important at each of thosestages?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
All right, we could do a whole episode on this, but
I'll try to keep it succinct.
So, disclaimer it's going todepend on your particular
situation.
So you might be starting up aroofing company, that you have
some capital.
It's not your first rodeo.
You have some money saved up.
You have budget to go out andstart.
In more cases than not, it'sthe bootstrap company.
(47:20):
I started bootstrap.
You don't have a ton of money toinvest in a full-blown
marketing strategy, so you'regoing to be putting in your
labor and we hear this a lot,jim, you'll see it in the
Facebook groups like hey, I needa new, who do you recommend for
SEO.
Or we'll even get clients whoare like hey, I need to do SEO,
(47:41):
who should I sign up with?
And I'm like I always like toanswer a question with a
question Like why do you thinkthat you need SEO?
Like how does that play intoyour marketing strategy?
I think they might know a guythat crushes it with SEO, but
that guy's been in business for10 years and you know he's got
like you don't know what's belowthe surface.
Seo, for example, takes a lotof time.
(48:08):
It takes a lot of money, ittakes a lot of patience.
You got to be willing to investin it for a long time before
you see that return.
So SEO is something that wedon't typically.
I mean, yes, there's levels ofeverything right, the basics,
google business profile setup,optimized, website optimized,
all that sort of thing butshould you be doing aggressive
SEO from day one?
I don't believe so that sort ofthing.
But should you be doingaggressive SEO from day one?
I don't believe so.
(48:29):
You can have a lot of tractionby getting your face on video so
faces on video on social media,on Facebook and Instagram
primarily and then backing yourcontent.
Because if you're starting out,you don't have a lot of
followers, you don't have a lotof likes on your pages and
profiles, running some brandawareness ads on Meta, which is
Facebook and Instagram.
So take those videos of yourhandsome or pretty face out
there on the job site and spend$10 a day on some brand
(48:50):
awareness ads in your local fivemile, 10 mile radius and all of
a sudden, you're gettingthousands of people to see your
content, not just the 247followers that you have on your
Facebook page.
So that's a big one.
Make sure you have your youknow clean website, google
business profile dialed in.
You're getting some reviews.
You're getting out there onsocial media consistently, on
Facebook and Instagram, backingsome of that content with some
(49:12):
advertising dollars on meta,that's a really good start.
Of course, making sure that youare over-delivering, providing
a great client experience,earning those referrals, that's
a really good start.
So that could be you as theowner, your spouse, whatever
that is.
And then you get a little bitof traction.
(49:33):
Or that part-time marketingperson to just continue that,
again, you can't hire thatperson if you don't know what
you're doing.
So you got to know it.
Like Jim did the drywall beforehe hired a drywall guy, you got
to buck up and do it.
You just got to do it.
There's no way around it.
You just got to do it, learn alittle bit so that you can hire
that person, be able to leadthem, manage them, hold them
(49:54):
accountable.
And then, yeah, as you grow, Iwould say Again, we have clients
that are doing $2 million ayear that have a full-time
in-house marketing manager.
Generally they're younger ownersin their 20s who really
understand the importance ofthat.
But I would say more generallyyou get to that $5 million a
(50:14):
year range, you're looking tohire that full-time in-house
person, You're getting towardthat $10 million range and you
have that vision Again, thatlonger-term vision.
You know where you're going.
I'm a big fan of hiring forwhere you're going, not where
you're at.
So you get toward that $10million range.
Maybe you look to have thatfull-time in-house video
creative person in addition toyour marketing coordinator.
(50:35):
So now you have two full-timepeople on your team and that's
going to help you get to thatnext level.
So there's so many nuances.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
So many.
But, like you said, we could doat least do an hour on that.
Right, just on that.
But yeah for sure.
But the core, the core of it isis to me, I think, is that,
like the way I refer to it, joe,is the marketing stack right?
So you start doing one thingand you then consistently do
that and then you add somethingto that stack, and then you add
something to that stack and thenyou add some, but it's not
(51:08):
taking the other thing away, inmy opinion.
Right Like, if you, unless, ofcourse, it's it's completely off
the rails Right Like, but youcontinue to build and add to
this stack.
So now it's the old, you knowthe?
How many lines in the water?
Do you have kind of analogy?
Right Like, in the more linesyou have in the water, the more
(51:28):
consistent.
You'll, looking at, may seemlike it's the right thing to do.
Like you said, I know a guy thatcrushes it in this, right Like.
(51:49):
I know yeah, I met a guy down atan event and they crush it at
Facebook ads, they crush it atSEO, they crush it with
billboards, they crush it withwhatever.
But it might not be right foryour company and I think you
should look at your team, andwhat we were talking about off
camera is.
An example of this is if youhave a door-to-door sales team
(52:12):
and they're knocking a storm, afresh storm, and you get a
Facebook ad lead that comes inacross town or a Google ads lead
that comes in across town, Idon't think that sales rep is
gonna jump in the truck anddrive across town.
Or a Google ads lead that comesin across town, I don't think
that sales rep is going to jumpin the truck and drive across
town for that.
They may pretend that they did,yeah Right.
Their follow-up may not be asdiligent on that lead across
(52:36):
town because they are focused onthat next door where that fresh
storm is.
What are your thoughts on howto use the right marketing
channels for the team that youhave?
Speaker 2 (52:53):
Yeah, it's a great one.
I would use that phrase,reverse engineer, which is just
basically a fancy way of sayinglike, start with the end in mind
, right?
So go back to that ideal client, ideal project.
What do you want?
You want, you want to.
You're at 2 million.
You want to grow to five, okay,well, those ideal projects for
you are those $20,000,.
(53:13):
You know, shingle replacementswhen?
Where do you want to work Like?
Where are geographically?
Like, where are those you wantto focus on?
Your around your office or yourhome?
Do you want to focus on, like,the higher end of town?
Where do you want to focus?
Focus your efforts?
And then you're going to have,you know, you're going to have,
like, sit down with your teamand it's.
It's not like you're not likethe dictator, right.
(53:35):
It was like, all right, I'mgoing to my black box, I'm going
to do my planning for 2025.
And this is our marketing plan.
Then you're, like, cascading itdown to the team.
I would say, like at a roundtable with your team and talk
that out.
Because, yeah, like you said,that buy-in is key.
(53:57):
Whether you're investing in anew CRM or a video marketing
strategy, you have to have thatbuy-in from your team.
And then you mentioned follow-up.
It's not all about just gettinga bunch of leads in the door.
It's like, hey, how are we, howare we responding to leads?
How are we following up?
What's our long term nurturewith leads that someone inquires
today, on December 11th?
Well, maybe they're not readytoday, but like when they're
ready in April, how are westaying top of mind so that you
(54:18):
know they're calling usautomatically when they're ready
to go?
And so there's companies thatare like some of the I'm just
looking at our clients like theyounger companies, younger
people.
They're like, yeah, like video.
Obviously, I need to get myface on video.
That's going to be our thing.
We're going to crush it onvideo, great.
Maybe you have some othercompanies like yeah, that's not
(54:39):
really our thing.
I would challenge you on that.
But maybe you're doingsomething else.
Maybe you're in Dallas-FortWorth where it's so freaking
saturated that you're going tofocus more on building referral
relationships with commercialproperty owners or realtors or
other people that are spheres ofinfluence for you.
(55:00):
And so the way I look at it islike here's our ideal client,
our ideal prospect.
What do they need to see andbelieve before they reach out to
us to feel comfortable enoughto say hey, jim, I want you guys
to come out and do aninspection or look at my roof,
right.
What do they need to see?
They're going to need to seeyour brand 10, 15 times before
(55:20):
they feel comfortable enough toreach out to you.
What do you want them tobelieve about your company?
You're not the cheapest guy,you're not the low price guy.
You're going to be moreexpensive, you're not going to
be the most expensive, but youmight be in that 70th percentile
, right?
They're going to pay a littlebit more for a great experience.
And then how can you get thatcontent out in front of them?
Like, 90% of the buying decisionis made before a company
(55:42):
reaches out, before a personreaches out to a company for the
first time.
So what kind of questions arethey asking?
Do they want to see an instantroof quote tool on your website?
So all these differentquestions.
But it all starts with, like,who is our ideal client and what
do they need to see and believein order to feel comfortable
enough to reach out to us?
And then you just backfill fromthere.
(56:02):
Enough to reach out to us?
And then you just backfill fromthere.
So it's not easy.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
Sorry guys, it's not the easy button but it's worth
it because very few companiesare going to do that work.
Very few will do that work.
Awesome, joseph Hughes.
It's been a pleasure.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning into theRoofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning in to theRoofing Success Podcast For more
valuable content.
Visit roofingsuccesspodcastcomWhile there, check out our
(56:29):
sponsors for exclusive offers,shop for merchandise and sign up
for our newsletter for industryupdates and tips.
Also join the Roofing SuccessFacebook group to connect with
other professionals and stayupdated on the latest trends.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, like, share
and leave a comment.
Group to connect with otherprofessionals and stay updated
on the latest trends.
(56:50):
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, like, share
and leave a comment.
Your support helps us continueto bring you top industry
insights.
The website link is in thedescription.
Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!