June 4, 2025 • 41 mins
In this podcast episode, Synergy's Manpreet Dhami-Magne discusses the intricate balance between cost and sustainability in corporate travel with industry leaders Kerrie Henshaw-Cox and Shelley Fletcher-Bryant. They explore the evolving role of travel managers, the challenges of managing emissions alongside financial budgets, and the importance of selecting sustainable suppliers. The conversation also delves into the complexities of sustainability accreditations, the debate on offsetting emissions, and the role of government and industry in promoting sustainable practices. Ultimately, the episode emphasizes that businesses can achieve both sustainability and growth through informed decision-making and collaboration.
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Episode Transcript
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Manpreet Dhami-Magne (00:00):
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us forthis Room for Build podcast.
For those of you who don't knowme, my name is Mabrit
Dhami-Manya and I am ExecutiveVice President for International
(00:20):
Strategic Operations at SynergyGlobal Housing, a leading and
multi-award winninginternational service
accommodation provider.
Today's podcast entitled Costversus Planet Can We Really Have
It All?
is aimed at discussing oftentough choices travel buyers and
suppliers face when trying tobalance cost and sustainability.
(00:40):
Diving into the real worldimplications of prioritising one
over the other, exploring someof the challenges, as well as
some of the trade-offs andpotential solutions, I'm
thrilled to be joined by two ofthe powerhouse voices of our
industry.
These two amazing women are notonly shaping our industry, but
they are also challenging it.
So first up, it's It's withgreat pleasure that I would like
(01:02):
to introduce Kerry Henshaw-Cox,Director of Global Procurement
at AstraZeneca.
With over 30 years ofexperience in industry and a
reputation for drivinginnovation across 90 plus global
markets, Kerry brings with herbold thinking to travel
strategies, sustainability andthe duty of care.
I'm equally pleased to beintroducing alongside Kerry,
(01:25):
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant, VicePresident of Client Relationship
Management at Advito.
Shelley's a familiar face inthe industry and she has a
unique background spanning bothdestination marketing, retail
and corporate travel strategy.
So without further ado andtapping into all of the
experience of these twowonderful women, let's dive into
(01:47):
the key question, which is cancompanies really balance the
bottom line with what is rightfor the planet?
So I'm going to start with you,Kerry, if I may.
Talk to me a little bit aboutyour role.
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (01:58):
So as you said in the introduction, thank
you for that.
I'm the Director of the TravelServices at AstraZeneca in the
procurement organisation.
So cost is always a reallyimportant part of the role.
My job covers the 90-oddcountries that you travel.
you mentioned, we have 60,000travelers at AstraZeneca and we
(02:21):
have some quite tight targetsand budgets to stick to.
So it has to be reallyimportant when we travel that we
are smart, safe and sustainablein the choices that we make.
I'm responsible for businesstravel.
I don't cover the meetings andevents.
I don't cover card or fleet.
But we do overlap with meetingsand events because we manage
(02:46):
the travel for meetings.
So basically, anyone andeveryone traveling on behalf of
AstraZeneca, when we pay forthat, is part of our
responsibility.
And I'm lucky to have threeamazing regional travel managers
based out in Australia, the UK,and And I also have a global
(03:08):
procurement manager who does allthe airline and hotel
contracting with a real strongfocus right now on
sustainability and thosepartners, those suppliers with
sustainability high on theiragenda as well.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (03:22):
Fantastic.
Thanks.
Thanks, Kerry.
Shelley, you're also playing anintegral role in championing
sustainability.
So can you talk to us a littlebit about your role?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (03:30):
course, yes.
And again, thank you for theintroduction.
I'm very excited to be herehaving this conversation today.
I don't know how long we havethis podcast, but Kerry and I
could talk about this all daylong.
So we'll try and keep itfocused.
But yes, my role.
So Advito is a business travelconsulting firm.
We are the consulting arm ofBCD Travel, but we also operate
(03:52):
independently of BCD.
And we have a number ofconsulting solutions.
So the typical travelconsulting solutions that you
would expect like air and hotel,looking after sourcing.
But in 2019, we launchedsustainability consulting,
dedicated sustainabilitypractice within Advito.
And that was due to increasingdemand from clients when we were
(04:15):
looking at their air and hotelprograms.
The conversation aroundsustainability really started to
increase.
First of all, how can I measuremy emissions?
What do I need to do?
How do I reduce my emissions?
So we had a number of verypassionate and very experienced
people in the team who thenbuilt and created the
sustainability practice.
(04:36):
And we continue to evolve thesustainability solutions that we
offer.
So we created a methodology,not because we were bored, but
because we felt like the DEFRAmethodology, which was standard
at that time, wasn't givingenough information to enable
real change when it came toswitching behaviors.
So we built that as afoundational piece, built in
(04:56):
consulting, communication todrive the change and we've
really seen that grow since 2019into a very very strong
practice area and it continuesto evolve because legislation
changes there's there'sdifferent demands there's
different priorities so theentire team are focused on
sustainability solutions andwhat we're seeing now is that
(05:18):
that's feeding into all of theother core solutions that we
offer so when you're thinkingabout hotel sourcing you're
thinking about the accommodationsector You're also now thinking
about sustainability.
It's not just about what ratecan I get?
There's a lot of considerationinto sustainability and also
DE&I components as well.
So it's a broad team that kindof cross cuts all the different
(05:39):
solutions that we offer.
And we work with some greatclients like AstraZeneca to
really focus and deliversustainability when it comes to
reducing emissions from businesstravel.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (05:50):
Fantastic.
Thanks, Shelley.
Just jumping back to you,Kerry, can you talk to us from
the perspective of a travelmanager and speak to us about
some of the challenges thatyou're facing at AstraZeneca?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (06:01):
Yeah, I think the biggest challenge
we're facing at the moment inmanaging a travel program is
exactly what this podcast is allabout.
It's that balancing of costversus emissions.
As a business, we have a needto travel.
We are a commercialorganization selling our
products, making our products,bringing scientists together and
(06:23):
developing people around theworld.
So there is a need to travel.
We have budgets as everybodyelse does.
So managing those costs in thesmartest way has always been a
challenge of the travel manager.
How can we travel when we needto, but do it for the lowest
logical amount, which has alwaysbeen a phrase we've used.
(06:45):
But now you layer onto that,and this has been for the past
few years, the sustainabilityangle, doing the right thing by
the environment, by the world,but also keeping that within
emissions targets that we nowalso have.
So as well as financialtargets, we have set emissions
targets.
So I don't think it's totallynew or unusual with other
(07:08):
corporate clients.
But with us, we really haveembraced this.
We've really tackled this.
A few years ago, we did setemissions targets and divided
those targets across thebusiness as you would with a
financial budget and it'smanaged in that way.
So our challenge now as travelmanagers is to help business
(07:30):
leaders and travellers travelnot just in a smart way but in a
sustainable way.
and help them to make choicesthat stick within emissions
targets.
And those targets are cascadeddown to the lower levels of the
business.
So can I be doing thingsdifferently?
Can I be making smarterchoices, more sustainable
(07:53):
choices?
Do I have the financial budget?
Do I actually have theemissions budgets left?
So we help the business to stayon track with that.
And the other challenge isright now is looking ahead to a
growing organizationorganization where we will need
to engage and connect peoplemore.
(08:14):
Note that I say connect peoplerather than travel more because
travel isn't always the answer.
But knowing what we've achievedin reducing our emissions over
the past few years, we cancontinue to do that and bridge
that gap.
So the role of the travelmanager in an organization is
that advisor, that consultant,that hand-holding partner to the
(08:37):
business to say, we recognizeyou need to travel, you need to
connect with people, but let ushelp you more to achieve it and
stay within your financialbudgets and your emissions
budgets.
And it's really interestingthat at the end of 2024, towards
the end of 24, people and teamswere running out of emissions
(08:58):
quicker than they were runningout of the financials.
So we're definitely needed.
I think a few years ago, wewere knocking on team leaders
doors to say, can we help you?
We're now having the businessknocking on our doors saying,
how can you help us?
So it's a real shift.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (09:16):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Certainly from my perspective,post-pandemic, that role of a
travel manager has enormouslyevolved.
And just from what you've saidthere, you're no longer just
managing a financial budget, butyou're managing an emissions
budget.
It seems like an absoluteminefield to me.
But maybe, Shelley, you canshed some light on this from
your perspective.
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (09:36):
Oh, I echo that completely.
The role of a travel managerjust continuously expands.
It seems like there's no end tothe scope of responsibility
that fall upon a travel managerand it varies all the time.
So Kerry, you said a greatword.
You're a consultant to thebusiness almost in terms of
guiding them in how to traveland how to do it safely and
(09:58):
sustainably and costeffectively.
And when we talk about thatbalance of kind of I think
there's another aspect thatweaves into that as well, which
is comfort, which is well-being.
And these three have to work insynergy together.
And it's really challenging, Ithink, to determine how to make
(10:20):
the best choices and whatconstitutes the best choice.
And travel managers are comingto us, just as Kerry expressed,
her internal colleagues arecoming to her to ask, what
should we do?
These are our businessobjectives.
How do we achieve businessobjectives?
business growth when we alsohave to focus on reducing our
emissions.
What are our options?
(10:41):
And we all know that travel isan enabler and travel is
important and travel is notgoing to stop or go away, but
it's about doing it with a moreconscious mindset.
So we do a lot of work tounderstand what is the travel
that's happening in thebusiness?
Why are people traveling?
Do you need 10 people to go tothat meeting or could two people
(11:02):
go?
Do you need to do a one-daytrip or...
Could you either just do thatmeeting virtually or could you
actually extend the trip and dotwo or three meetings at the
same time, reducing the need tohave future travel?
It's about really taking a stepback and having the time to do
that I know isn't easy on thebasis that travel managers have
a million and one things to do.
(11:23):
But that's where working withpartners can be really valuable
in understanding your data,understanding the trends.
But what I think is incrediblyvaluable that AstraZeneca has
that not all businesses have isthat there is buy in on this
strategy from the top down, thatit really is supported in terms
of thinking about the planetand thinking about
sustainability, whilst alsobeing focused on business
(11:46):
growth.
It's not sustainability at thecost of growth.
Having this led from the top isone of the foundational pieces
for success, I would say, in anytravel programme.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (11:56):
That makes absolute sense.
Again, looking at it from asupplier's perspective, and I
work for a wonderfulorganisation that really does
want to do the right thing whenit comes to sustainability and
balancing that cost versusplanet mystery.
I just feel that certainly thejourney that we have been on, it
is very difficult to know whereto make the right investments.
(12:18):
None of us are making any moremoney.
So in terms of theaccreditations out there, there
are, I mean, I'd like to saydozens, but there's far more
than dozens.
Kerry, can you talk us, sorry,Kerry and all, Shelley, can you
talk us through a little bit?
What have you done and whatshould...
suppliers when they're thinkingof investing in an
(12:38):
accreditation really be thinkingabout?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (12:40):
I think to start with, we've focused on the
airspace because there arerecognised measurements.
Shelley referenced the DEFRAcalculations earlier.
So our emissions targets todayare based on air emissions.
So we have formulas that weuse, which is basically your
(13:00):
miles flown by the class oftravel.
And then we also applyradiative force calculations to
ours so that we're reporting asbest we can.
But this is recognised, this isfairly standard and you can
then compare to others thatmeasurement.
And I think for the air travel,it's something that corporates
(13:23):
can do.
So we have publicly declaredwhat our commitment to the
reduction of emissions will befor air travel only.
We can then capture that data.
We can report on it to thebusiness.
We can use, created a dashboardso that all areas of the
business can see what tripsthey've booked, how that affects
the targets.
(13:44):
Today, I could see whether theflight I booked a few weeks ago,
what impact that's had, or theflight I booked for a November
departure date will have on mytotal emissions.
So it's there.
There's more that can be done,don't get me wrong, but it's
there.
But that's what we arereporting on.
For me, there is more that canbe done.
(14:04):
And this is down to one of ourvalues about doing the right
thing.
So for the other parts oftravel, hotels, apartments,
rail, car hire, groundtransportation, we aren't
formally reporting on theemissions from those areas of
the business yet.
I do know that someorganizations do.
(14:24):
My concern is that standardizedmeasurement that would be a
recognized way of capturing thatand reporting it.
So my thinking is to help ourtravelers to make sustainable
and right choices, working withthose partners that have made
the efforts in their ownsustainability agenda, to
(14:47):
highlight to our travellers whenthey're choosing to stay at any
accommodation or travel byrail, that they know which ones
are the more sustainable.
In time, we will be able toreflect that in our reporting.
But at the moment, I don't feelthe industry is there yet with
a standardised way of reportingemissions across accommodation
(15:09):
suppliers or groundtransportation suppliers.
So we are definitely workingtowards that, but we're not
there yet.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (15:17):
So it's all about making incremental
steps in the right direction.
Absolutely.
And as you say, it's far moreestablished measuring mechanisms
when it comes to air travel.
But can you talk to us a littlebit about those other areas and
maybe give us some tips aroundwhat suppliers can think about
in those areas that perhapsaren't as clearly able to
(15:42):
measure today?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (15:44):
Yes.
And Kerry's right.
The focus on air is consistentacross kind of travel reporting.
Reason for that being when itcomes to business travel
emissions, between 80 and 90percent of emissions come from
air travel.
So in terms of moving levers toreduce emissions, it's where
the biggest impact can happen.
(16:04):
That being said, accommodationis also really important.
And accommodation is somewhatbehind air because there isn't
standard methodology.
I mentioned earlier themethodology that Advito created
called Gate 4, and that doesaccount for accommodation as
well.
So it's air, hotel,accommodation, rail, and car,
(16:25):
because we believe that you doneed that full picture.
What is incredibly complex inthe accommodation sector?
You mentioned accreditations.
The most recent kind of trawlthat we did is that there's
pushing 250 differentaccommodation accreditations for
eco certificates or eco labels.
(16:47):
I mean, it's a minefield.
It's ridiculous.
It's incredibly challenging forboth suppliers and for travel
managers to know what's good.
So part of the work that we didwas to go through and
systematically assess all of thecriteria for all of these
accommodation accreditations.
(17:08):
And we ranked them.
And I won't go through the fulllist of 250 accreditations, but
some of the best ones that youcan sign up to are any
accreditations that are linkedto the Global Sustainable
Tourism Council.
They're incredibly robust.
LEAD.
is also a really good one, asis Green Key and Nordic Swan in
(17:31):
the Nordics regions.
Really, really good.
There's some other good onesout there as well, but in terms
of a snapshot of some of thebest eco-certifications for
accommodation, they're up there.
And the reason they're up thereis because they're very
thorough, they're assessed bythird parties, they provide
clear guidance on improvementsthat can be made, And they're an
(17:53):
annual assessment.
There are others out there.
I'm very disappointed to saythat you can pay £100 and tick
some boxes online and you getyour eco certificate.
And it's really challenging foraccommodation to know what
route they should go down.
And I think it's also reallychallenging that when it comes
to RFP season, and we're headinginto that glorious time now
(18:17):
when it comes to hotelaccommodation RFP season, We
also as well as not havingconsistency in the
accreditation, we don't haveconsistency in what every
corporate is asking for fromtheir providers.
So when it comes to completingRFPs, we know already it's a
painful process.
But now with sustainability andlayer on top D&I, there's so
(18:41):
many questions and there's somany different questions in
terms of what corporatesrequire.
And a lot of that also comesdown to the audit requirements.
So with more legislation comingin, more requirements, the
auditing on your emission datais now becoming more even more
onerous.
It's not just a case of puttingsome figures in front of an
auditor and having it includedin a report anymore.
(19:04):
Part of the work we're doing, abig piece of work we do with
any client we work with onproducing our emission
reporting, is we spend a hugechunk of time talking to the
audit team and talking themthrough the methodology, helping
them understand it, explainingit and validating it so that it
can be included.
And that requirement on auditis going to continue to become a
(19:27):
requirement and challenging.
And I think we will in time getto a point where there is some
consistency to Kerry's pointthat that's the challenge we
have in terms of an agreedglobal solution.
But I don't think it's going tocome quickly.
I think we're getting therewith air now.
Obviously, we have DEFRA as theoriginal, if you like.
And then there's the travelimpact model, Google travel
(19:49):
impact model.
That is, I think, potentiallygoing to become more of an
industry standard, which is veryaligned to what we do with
gatefall calculations.
But hotel, accommodation, rail,car are going to be later
additions, I would say, forconsistency.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (20:05):
I was just jotting down a few notes as he
was speaking there, because Irecently attended a conference
and one of the questions thatcame from the audience around
RFPs and RFIs, and I'd say inrecent years, the greater
visibility of sustainability,D&I, etc.
One of the questions that cameout was, how important is it
really?
(20:25):
when you are assessing otherthings as part of an RFP by
cost.
How really important is that toan organization?
And one of the fellow panelistswho was from a corporate
organization, I think saidsomething very valuable, which
is kind of depends on theorganization.
You know, differentorganizations have a different
focus on sustainability, DE&I,et cetera.
(20:47):
But going back to you, Kerry,you know, Shelley has talked
about the ability to pay 100quid and get a certification.
I know that AstraZeneca isincredibly focused on
sustainability.
It isn't just a tick boxexercise for you.
But how can other organisationslook at selecting providers
(21:09):
that are essentially, there's abit of greenwashing there.
Let's just pay this 100 quid,tick a box.
What should they be looking outfor?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (21:18):
Yeah, I mean, we've spoken previously
leading up to this about thereporting.
So when you do have to fly, youcan get a standard type of
reporting, but it means whoeveryou choose to fly with, you'll
get the report from them.
We're taking it a step furtherand we're working with SBTI, so
the Science Based TargetInitiative.
And basically, we're asking oursuppliers to be verified with
(21:43):
science based targets.
That becomes our constant tosay, that's the measurement that
we recognize.
So it's not a hundred poundsthat you've paid to buy the
certification.
It's a standard that we want touse across not just our travel
suppliers, but across thesuppliers that we work with.
And we started this, I'm goingto say three, maybe four years
(22:05):
ago now, where we made ourpartners, our suppliers aware
that this is the direction wewere going in, that we were
going to be setting the targetsthat you needed to be verified
by.
And so now we're at the pointof with those key suppliers to
say, are you verified?
Do we need to escalate this tohelp you to become verified,
help you to help us?
(22:26):
Or do we just need to exit thispartnership?
Because you're not on the samesustainability agenda and track
that we are.
And we want to partner and workwith and do business with
partners that have the samefocus on sustainability that we
do.
And so that would be, for me,one piece of advice to any
corporate is to find thatstandard that your suppliers can
(22:52):
work with.
Find a standard.
I'm just giving you the onethat we're using, but find a
standard that you accept andacknowledge that as being
approved to be able to approveyour suppliers, the partners
that you work with.
So that's come from the top.
That's not a travel.
That's not me as a travelmanager saying this is the one
we're going to recognise.
(23:13):
That's what we're doing withinthe organisation.
That's the measurement, thestandard that we are going to be
working towards.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (23:20):
Yeah, and that makes absolute sense.
And you said it a couple oftimes whilst you've been
speaking.
All of this has come from thetop.
of your organization.
It's not you as an individualdesperately trying to drive this
initiative forward, nor is itany member of your team.
It really has come from theC-suite and has trickled down to
every individual in yourorganization.
(23:40):
So from that perspective, it'sgreat to see that happen at
AstraZeneca.
It is not the case in manyother organizations.
So what do we think, perhaps,government can do or our
industry associations can do tohelp push in the right direction
when it comes to taking care ofour planet.
(24:02):
Shelley, if you could sharesome of your thoughts on that.
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (24:05):
Yeah, I think there's a huge role for
the industry to play in thisbecause it's not just about a
government setting a framework.
There are many governments allaround the world with very
varying priorities when it comesto where sustainability sits on
their governmental agenda,their political agenda.
So I think there is a role forgovernment to play in supporting
(24:27):
the industry, but my view isthat the industry should and
could be leading this.
Defining what it is that wewant to report on?
How is it that we want toreport?
What is that balance betweencost and sustainability?
And that will be at a businessby business level, but some form
of framework that talks aboutthe benefits and how that's
(24:49):
managed is really important.
And using case studies fromcompanies like AstraZeneca,
where it is led from the top,and you can have both.
It's not sustainability at thecost of business growth.
You can have both.
Taking a sustainable choiceisn't always a more expensive
choice.
You need to have the data to beable to make an informed
choice.
And you might be surprised.
And something we do a lot of islooking at if you are shifting
(25:13):
share from one hotelaccommodation or airline
provider to another, that givesyou greater negotiating power to
get better contracts in place.
So there's lots of opportunityat a business level to do that.
But I think having theindustry, whether that's GBTA as
an industry body, reallychampioning standardization and
(25:33):
that management of the internalprocess to get that buy-in to
help educate leaders withinbusinesses that you can have
both it's not one or the otherand then I think government can
support that where I think wehave a challenge today is in the
requirements that are being putupon travel managers when you
look at CSRD you look at thereporting requirements for that
(25:56):
sustainability directive allacross Europe.
And that's causing hugechallenges.
I think in Germany, they'relooking to have it rolled back
and to change it.
It's a huge ask.
And that's been led, notnecessarily by industry.
So I think industry has a roleto play in really championing
what we can do, how we can doit, and ultimately, Starting
(26:16):
with the end in mind, what isthe goal here?
What are we trying to do?
This isn't reporting andlegislation for the sake of it.
There has to be a reason as towhy we're taking this seriously.
Let's start with that and thenwork backwards in terms of what
do we then need to do to achievethat.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (26:33):
Thank you.
Thank you.
So again, going back to one ofyour comments, you said, you
know, there's the So manycertifications out there.
We've been on this journeyourselves trying to work out
what is the right certificationfor us, what is meaningful, what
is not just greenwashing totick a box in an RFP, RFI
situation.
And one of the things that wehad an extensive discussion
(26:54):
around was offsetting.
Because historically,offsetting has been one of the
easier, I would say, to take.
What, Kerry...
From your perspective atAstraZeneca, what are your
thoughts on offsetting?
And then, Shelley, I'll jumpback to you for your thoughts on
that as well.
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (27:14):
I'm going to put this one more as a Kerry
thought rather than a companythought.
So I go back to doing the rightthing.
So we should be reducing theemissions.
If we use offsetting as a meansto excuse us for doing what
we've done, so we've flown, butwe can offset it so it's all
(27:35):
okay.
paying for it after the fact,that to me doesn't feel like the
right thing to do.
So for me, offsetting comesright at the bottom of the
priority list, that we should betackling our behavior and
reducing the emissions and beingsmarter in what we do and
making more sustainable choices.
(27:57):
For example, at AstraZeneca,we've had this campaign, Every
Mile Matters, and it focuses onthree things.
which is to take the trainrather than the plane, to reduce
one-day trips, so to combineyour meetings and don't keep
going and don't keep travelingdaily, combine them and do two
or three-day trips instead, andto choose sustainable partners.
(28:19):
We've seen the results of thisspeak for themselves.
Behavior has changed.
We have definitely reduced thenumber of one-day trips because
we've seen our accommodationspend go up as a percentage of
total spend.
So it means that people arecombining trips and staying
overnight rather than there andback in a day.
The impact of the message oftaking the train over the plane
(28:43):
has been phenomenal.
We've absolutely reduced ouremissions because of taking the
train.
And for any journey that's fourhours by train, you cannot fly.
We've gone to that extent inEurope.
And again, a longer trainjourney means you need to stay
overnight.
So combined meetings becomesthe sense.
But this is tackling it at thefront.
(29:04):
So reducing emissions, beingmore sustainable rather than
offsetting it after the fact.
Because as I said, it feelslike it's an excuse.
You can use it as an excuse totravel more.
It doesn't matter if I travelmore because I can offset it.
So I'm a little bit wary ofoffsetting.
That said, when we do traveland we have to travel and we
(29:28):
know what our emissions are asan organisation, we offset and
we invest in that.
We are very careful.
We actually have a team thatmanage offsetting.
So let me just put that intoperspective a little bit.
Business travel emissionsaccount for less than 3% of our
total emissions as a companybecause we're a manufacturing
(29:49):
company.
Compare that to a consultingcompany and it's going to be the
inverse of that.
So we do need to offset all ofour emissions, but we do it, if
you like, after the fact so thatthe choices aren't being made
based on the fact that you canoffset.
So that's a perspective.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (30:07):
It makes a lot of sense.
Shelley, what about you?
How are you advising supplierswhen they come to you around
this question?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (30:15):
Very similar view to Kerry in that
this plays a role in thestrategy, but it is not the
strategy.
So I would say that there'ssome really bad offsetting out
there and there's kind of somenot so bad offsetting out there.
But You know, when you look atthe different options for
offsetting, there's been so muchin the press.
(30:37):
If you Google anything aboutoffsetting scandals, you will
see endless news reports aboutcompanies that have, in good
faith, invested in offsettingschemes.
And that money has gone intothings that it really shouldn't
have been going into.
And there have been many issueswhere, for instance, if you go
back even 10, 15, 20 years,people were planting trees.
(31:00):
That was the big thing.
Let's offset and plant a tree.
It is shocking to see how manyof those forests, those areas
where trees have been planted,have been cut down or have been
hit by wildfires and have burntto the ground.
And that just releases all ofthat carbon back into the air.
So it's about being reallyconsidered in what you do choose
(31:20):
to invest in.
It is a part of the strategy.
I agree with Kerry that thereis a need for something, but it
is the last piece of the puzzleas far as we're concerned and
the guidance that we give to ourclients.
And it's to really think andconsider about the areas in
which you invest.
And I think this is anotherarea where the standardization
(31:41):
and the accreditation andcertificates for offsetting is
is really quite messy forinstance one of the best things
you can invest in is whale anddolphin conservation without a
shadow of a doubt because of theamount of carbon that a whale's
body absorbs in its lifetimefar outweighs any forest
reforestation project that's Butyou can't invest in well and
(32:04):
dolphin conservation and get anoffsetting certificate for it.
So therefore, it's not
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (32:09):
necessarily something that people are
choosing to invest in, but itwould be the biggest impact that
you could have.
But I didn't know, though, thatstatistic.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (32:18):
love whales and dolphins so that's
that's a great one
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (32:22):
yeah whale and dolphin conservation
society just sign up to them andon a personal level i do it
when i take a personal trip imake sure i'm contributing to
the whale and dolphinconservation society because
it's a small thing i can do on apersonal level but but this
whole piece around offsetting itis an ongoing debate And it's
really important that we havethe conversation, but it really
(32:43):
worries me when a client comesto us to ask for support and
they say, but don't worry, we'vegot a big offsetting budget.
We'll just offset everything.
It's not a strategy.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (32:52):
Makes complete sense when you put it
like that.
By the way, I suspect thatyou'll be getting a very, very
big thank you from the Whale andDolphin Conservation Society as
a result of this podcast forthat big shout out.
So, look, guys, you have beenabsolutely amazing participants
in this discussion.
I really enjoyed talking toyou.
Just before we wrap up, becauseI know we could talk about this
(33:12):
for hours and hours, but wesadly do need to wrap up.
I'd like to maybe throw a fewquickfire questions at you that
are more or From a personalperspective, and Shelley, you
already shared a bit from apersonal perspective, but I've
got a few questions for youwhere I would like to get your
thoughts.
So I'm going to start with you,Shelley.
When you travel, are you onefor checked luggage or carry
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (33:35):
on?
I'll carry on wherever I can.
I'm too scared of losing myluggage.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (33:41):
Even if you're going on a very long
trip, are you just like a masterpacker?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (33:45):
I try.
I try.
If it can't work, then I alwaystake extras with me in hand
luggage, which worked well forme recently when I got stranded
in Toronto for four hours.
So I was very pleased to haveextra supplies in my carry-on.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (33:59):
Fantastic.
Kerry, what about you?
My question for you is aroundleisure or bleasure.
What's your preference?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (34:06):
I definitely keep the two separate.
That's your question, isn't it?
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (34:10):
That's basically my question, yeah,
because there has been...
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (34:13):
Keep them separate.
If you're doing a businesstrip, stick to business.
And for leisure, and I'm a bigfan of leisure, then definitely
switch off.
Try not to take the laptop.
Remember that out of officebecause downtime is really
important for recharging.
And I think if you blur thelines, neither business or
(34:36):
leisure will benefit.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (34:38):
I completely agree with you.
We're talking aboutsustainability of the planet but
i think that that need todisconnect from work is is
necessary for a sustainableworkforce you know we can't be
contactable 24 7 uh from a workperspective and i i'm totally
with you you know go on holidaylet it be a holiday and then
(35:01):
when you have to travel for worktravel for work and back to you
shelly Are you an early bird ora night owl?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (35:09):
I'm 100% a night owl.
I am not at my best at the Ireally feel for my US
colleagues, they're alwaysonline super early.
I'm very happy to stay onlinelate and talk to them.
If I had to do calls at 6am,you would get no sense out of
me.
So definitely a night owl.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (35:28):
I think I might have lost you a little bit
there, Shelley.
I don't know whether Kerry, youcan hear me.
I'm going to ask you thatquestion as well.
Something that I always, it'ssomething that, yeah, I'm always
really interested in because Iam definitely one side of that
very firmly.
Yeah,
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (35:43):
I'm...
I'm a Shelley.
I'm a night owl.
And my boss is actually basedin the US, so I can keep going
later working with him.
One of my team is based inBrisbane.
So the early calls with her,whilst fun, because I love her
to bits.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (36:02):
An
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (36:03):
absolute killer.
Yeah, just the early starts forme are tough.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (36:06):
Yeah, no, I think that's a three for all
of us.
I'm definitely more of a hotelthan I am a morning person.
And, you know, over the yearsmanaging the global team, it has
been very challenging gettingup for those early APAC calls.
But I do feel for them, they...
It is possibly in a globalbusiness, the region that is
most put upon for out of hourscalls.
And then the very last questionI have, actually, it's not the
(36:29):
very last question.
I've got one before.
Working from home or workingfrom the office?
I'm going to put that to you.
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (36:35):
For me, working from home.
I love the flexibility andflexibility.
I really value the time I getto focus on, yeah, that downtime
and wellbeing rather thancommuting into an office.
That being said, my ideal wouldbe hybrid.
So a few days in the office,face-to-face with colleagues,
you can't beat that interaction.
(36:56):
But if I had to choose 100%office or 100% home, I would
choose home.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (37:01):
What about you, Kerry?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (37:03):
I work the hybrid model.
We have to be in the office for60% of the time, so basically
three days a week.
But the collaboration and theconnecting with people that you
wouldn't normally connect withbecause you're, you know,
working from home for me is thisvery specific thing.
targeted calls and meetingsthat you have related to the
(37:27):
part of the business that you'rein.
And yet when I go into theoffice, I'm sitting next to
other colleagues in procurementor different parts of the
organization.
And we make a point when we'rein the office to have lunch
together.
So you catch up on what otherpeople are doing.
And I have a brilliant example.
I sat at a table recently whereafter being frustrated in the
(37:48):
morning, I was trying to get apurchase order raised with a
part of the organization,struggled to do it, sat next to
a lady at lunchtime and we weretalking about what do you do and
where do you work?
And she said, oh, I work forthis person.
And that's the person that wastrying to get the PO raised
with.
So it just shows you that, youknow, just mixing and mingling
with people that you wouldn'tordinarily do make connections
(38:11):
that you never expected andusually something good comes out
of that so I like that peoplein interactivity like the
connecting unless I'm doing thatcall with my Brisbane team
member at 8 o'clock in themorning and then it's going to
be a working from home daybecause to get into the office
after that will be a nightmareso that hybrid model works well
for me
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (38:32):
I don't disagree with either of you I
mean I often I love having theflexibility to work from home
but Often when I do then go intoan office or join meetings,
live meetings with colleagues, Iremember how much it is I
actually quite like people andhow much more you can get done
when you're face-to-face withthem and, you know, and things
that you perhaps had on yourto-do list for...
for weeks and months and thenjust bumping into the right
(38:55):
person and remembering thatwasn't a priority, but now I can
tick it off my list.
So it's great.
So as we do close up thispodcast, the last question for
both of you is going back to thetheme of the podcast, cost or
planet.
Rui, can you share your finalthoughts with regards to this,
both from a personal perspectiveand, of course, from the
perspective of yourorganisations?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (39:17):
For me, I think that both have a value,
have a part to play.
I don't think it's necessarilyone versus the other.
I think in each case, youshould be considering both cost
and sustainability.
And that's certainly the casein managing a travel program.
Our role here is to provideinformation that consultants to
(39:37):
help the business make smart andsustainable decisions in their
world, in their part of thebusiness.
Something's going to be moreimportant to them than the other
at that time.
So I don't think we should beimposing one over the other.
I should think we should begiving them the information and
the knowledge and the insightsto be able to make the right
(40:00):
choice that they need to make,cost and sustainable.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (40:05):
Shelley?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (40:05):
Well, I think Kerry's covered it very
eloquently there, but I agree.
I think cost has to play arole.
Of course it does.
We're all businesses and therehas to be a growth element and
cost continues to be a keyfactor.
As I said earlier, it doesn'talways mean that sustainability
(40:26):
costs more than doing somethingelse.
So I agree it can be both.
You can balance both.
The best way to do it is tohave visibility and an
understanding of what youroptions are and then to be
effectively tracking it.
And I think having both afiscal budget and a carbon
budget is a great way of gettingthe balance right.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (40:47):
Thank you.
Thank you both for your time.
Thank you both for sharing allof your insights and your
experience.
It's been wonderful chatting toyou both.
And just for the audience outthere, thank you for listening
to Room for Thought.
And if you liked, please doshare and subscribe.
Thanks very much.
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us forthis Room for Build podcast.
For those of you who don't knowme, my name is Mabrit
Dhami-Manya and I am ExecutiveVice President for International
(00:20):
Strategic Operations at SynergyGlobal Housing, a leading and
multi-award winninginternational service
accommodation provider.
Today's podcast entitled Costversus Planet Can We Really Have
It All?
is aimed at discussing oftentough choices travel buyers and
suppliers face when trying tobalance cost and sustainability.
(00:40):
Diving into the real worldimplications of prioritising one
over the other, exploring someof the challenges, as well as
some of the trade-offs andpotential solutions, I'm
thrilled to be joined by two ofthe powerhouse voices of our
industry.
These two amazing women are notonly shaping our industry, but
they are also challenging it.
So first up, it's It's withgreat pleasure that I would like
(01:02):
to introduce Kerry Henshaw-Cox,Director of Global Procurement
at AstraZeneca.
With over 30 years ofexperience in industry and a
reputation for drivinginnovation across 90 plus global
markets, Kerry brings with herbold thinking to travel
strategies, sustainability andthe duty of care.
I'm equally pleased to beintroducing alongside Kerry,
(01:25):
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant, VicePresident of Client Relationship
Management at Advito.
Shelley's a familiar face inthe industry and she has a
unique background spanning bothdestination marketing, retail
and corporate travel strategy.
So without further ado andtapping into all of the
experience of these twowonderful women, let's dive into
(01:47):
the key question, which is cancompanies really balance the
bottom line with what is rightfor the planet?
So I'm going to start with you,Kerry, if I may.
Talk to me a little bit aboutyour role.
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (01:58):
So as you said in the introduction, thank
you for that.
I'm the Director of the TravelServices at AstraZeneca in the
procurement organisation.
So cost is always a reallyimportant part of the role.
My job covers the 90-oddcountries that you travel.
you mentioned, we have 60,000travelers at AstraZeneca and we
(02:21):
have some quite tight targetsand budgets to stick to.
So it has to be reallyimportant when we travel that we
are smart, safe and sustainablein the choices that we make.
I'm responsible for businesstravel.
I don't cover the meetings andevents.
I don't cover card or fleet.
But we do overlap with meetingsand events because we manage
(02:46):
the travel for meetings.
So basically, anyone andeveryone traveling on behalf of
AstraZeneca, when we pay forthat, is part of our
responsibility.
And I'm lucky to have threeamazing regional travel managers
based out in Australia, the UK,and And I also have a global
(03:08):
procurement manager who does allthe airline and hotel
contracting with a real strongfocus right now on
sustainability and thosepartners, those suppliers with
sustainability high on theiragenda as well.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (03:22):
Fantastic.
Thanks.
Thanks, Kerry.
Shelley, you're also playing anintegral role in championing
sustainability.
So can you talk to us a littlebit about your role?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (03:30):
course, yes.
And again, thank you for theintroduction.
I'm very excited to be herehaving this conversation today.
I don't know how long we havethis podcast, but Kerry and I
could talk about this all daylong.
So we'll try and keep itfocused.
But yes, my role.
So Advito is a business travelconsulting firm.
We are the consulting arm ofBCD Travel, but we also operate
(03:52):
independently of BCD.
And we have a number ofconsulting solutions.
So the typical travelconsulting solutions that you
would expect like air and hotel,looking after sourcing.
But in 2019, we launchedsustainability consulting,
dedicated sustainabilitypractice within Advito.
And that was due to increasingdemand from clients when we were
(04:15):
looking at their air and hotelprograms.
The conversation aroundsustainability really started to
increase.
First of all, how can I measuremy emissions?
What do I need to do?
How do I reduce my emissions?
So we had a number of verypassionate and very experienced
people in the team who thenbuilt and created the
sustainability practice.
(04:36):
And we continue to evolve thesustainability solutions that we
offer.
So we created a methodology,not because we were bored, but
because we felt like the DEFRAmethodology, which was standard
at that time, wasn't givingenough information to enable
real change when it came toswitching behaviors.
So we built that as afoundational piece, built in
(04:56):
consulting, communication todrive the change and we've
really seen that grow since 2019into a very very strong
practice area and it continuesto evolve because legislation
changes there's there'sdifferent demands there's
different priorities so theentire team are focused on
sustainability solutions andwhat we're seeing now is that
(05:18):
that's feeding into all of theother core solutions that we
offer so when you're thinkingabout hotel sourcing you're
thinking about the accommodationsector You're also now thinking
about sustainability.
It's not just about what ratecan I get?
There's a lot of considerationinto sustainability and also
DE&I components as well.
So it's a broad team that kindof cross cuts all the different
(05:39):
solutions that we offer.
And we work with some greatclients like AstraZeneca to
really focus and deliversustainability when it comes to
reducing emissions from businesstravel.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (05:50):
Fantastic.
Thanks, Shelley.
Just jumping back to you,Kerry, can you talk to us from
the perspective of a travelmanager and speak to us about
some of the challenges thatyou're facing at AstraZeneca?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (06:01):
Yeah, I think the biggest challenge
we're facing at the moment inmanaging a travel program is
exactly what this podcast is allabout.
It's that balancing of costversus emissions.
As a business, we have a needto travel.
We are a commercialorganization selling our
products, making our products,bringing scientists together and
(06:23):
developing people around theworld.
So there is a need to travel.
We have budgets as everybodyelse does.
So managing those costs in thesmartest way has always been a
challenge of the travel manager.
How can we travel when we needto, but do it for the lowest
logical amount, which has alwaysbeen a phrase we've used.
(06:45):
But now you layer onto that,and this has been for the past
few years, the sustainabilityangle, doing the right thing by
the environment, by the world,but also keeping that within
emissions targets that we nowalso have.
So as well as financialtargets, we have set emissions
targets.
So I don't think it's totallynew or unusual with other
(07:08):
corporate clients.
But with us, we really haveembraced this.
We've really tackled this.
A few years ago, we did setemissions targets and divided
those targets across thebusiness as you would with a
financial budget and it'smanaged in that way.
So our challenge now as travelmanagers is to help business
(07:30):
leaders and travellers travelnot just in a smart way but in a
sustainable way.
and help them to make choicesthat stick within emissions
targets.
And those targets are cascadeddown to the lower levels of the
business.
So can I be doing thingsdifferently?
Can I be making smarterchoices, more sustainable
(07:53):
choices?
Do I have the financial budget?
Do I actually have theemissions budgets left?
So we help the business to stayon track with that.
And the other challenge isright now is looking ahead to a
growing organizationorganization where we will need
to engage and connect peoplemore.
(08:14):
Note that I say connect peoplerather than travel more because
travel isn't always the answer.
But knowing what we've achievedin reducing our emissions over
the past few years, we cancontinue to do that and bridge
that gap.
So the role of the travelmanager in an organization is
that advisor, that consultant,that hand-holding partner to the
(08:37):
business to say, we recognizeyou need to travel, you need to
connect with people, but let ushelp you more to achieve it and
stay within your financialbudgets and your emissions
budgets.
And it's really interestingthat at the end of 2024, towards
the end of 24, people and teamswere running out of emissions
(08:58):
quicker than they were runningout of the financials.
So we're definitely needed.
I think a few years ago, wewere knocking on team leaders
doors to say, can we help you?
We're now having the businessknocking on our doors saying,
how can you help us?
So it's a real shift.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (09:16):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Certainly from my perspective,post-pandemic, that role of a
travel manager has enormouslyevolved.
And just from what you've saidthere, you're no longer just
managing a financial budget, butyou're managing an emissions
budget.
It seems like an absoluteminefield to me.
But maybe, Shelley, you canshed some light on this from
your perspective.
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (09:36):
Oh, I echo that completely.
The role of a travel managerjust continuously expands.
It seems like there's no end tothe scope of responsibility
that fall upon a travel managerand it varies all the time.
So Kerry, you said a greatword.
You're a consultant to thebusiness almost in terms of
guiding them in how to traveland how to do it safely and
(09:58):
sustainably and costeffectively.
And when we talk about thatbalance of kind of I think
there's another aspect thatweaves into that as well, which
is comfort, which is well-being.
And these three have to work insynergy together.
And it's really challenging, Ithink, to determine how to make
(10:20):
the best choices and whatconstitutes the best choice.
And travel managers are comingto us, just as Kerry expressed,
her internal colleagues arecoming to her to ask, what
should we do?
These are our businessobjectives.
How do we achieve businessobjectives?
business growth when we alsohave to focus on reducing our
emissions.
What are our options?
(10:41):
And we all know that travel isan enabler and travel is
important and travel is notgoing to stop or go away, but
it's about doing it with a moreconscious mindset.
So we do a lot of work tounderstand what is the travel
that's happening in thebusiness?
Why are people traveling?
Do you need 10 people to go tothat meeting or could two people
(11:02):
go?
Do you need to do a one-daytrip or...
Could you either just do thatmeeting virtually or could you
actually extend the trip and dotwo or three meetings at the
same time, reducing the need tohave future travel?
It's about really taking a stepback and having the time to do
that I know isn't easy on thebasis that travel managers have
a million and one things to do.
(11:23):
But that's where working withpartners can be really valuable
in understanding your data,understanding the trends.
But what I think is incrediblyvaluable that AstraZeneca has
that not all businesses have isthat there is buy in on this
strategy from the top down, thatit really is supported in terms
of thinking about the planetand thinking about
sustainability, whilst alsobeing focused on business
(11:46):
growth.
It's not sustainability at thecost of growth.
Having this led from the top isone of the foundational pieces
for success, I would say, in anytravel programme.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (11:56):
That makes absolute sense.
Again, looking at it from asupplier's perspective, and I
work for a wonderfulorganisation that really does
want to do the right thing whenit comes to sustainability and
balancing that cost versusplanet mystery.
I just feel that certainly thejourney that we have been on, it
is very difficult to know whereto make the right investments.
(12:18):
None of us are making any moremoney.
So in terms of theaccreditations out there, there
are, I mean, I'd like to saydozens, but there's far more
than dozens.
Kerry, can you talk us, sorry,Kerry and all, Shelley, can you
talk us through a little bit?
What have you done and whatshould...
suppliers when they're thinkingof investing in an
(12:38):
accreditation really be thinkingabout?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (12:40):
I think to start with, we've focused on the
airspace because there arerecognised measurements.
Shelley referenced the DEFRAcalculations earlier.
So our emissions targets todayare based on air emissions.
So we have formulas that weuse, which is basically your
(13:00):
miles flown by the class oftravel.
And then we also applyradiative force calculations to
ours so that we're reporting asbest we can.
But this is recognised, this isfairly standard and you can
then compare to others thatmeasurement.
And I think for the air travel,it's something that corporates
(13:23):
can do.
So we have publicly declaredwhat our commitment to the
reduction of emissions will befor air travel only.
We can then capture that data.
We can report on it to thebusiness.
We can use, created a dashboardso that all areas of the
business can see what tripsthey've booked, how that affects
the targets.
(13:44):
Today, I could see whether theflight I booked a few weeks ago,
what impact that's had, or theflight I booked for a November
departure date will have on mytotal emissions.
So it's there.
There's more that can be done,don't get me wrong, but it's
there.
But that's what we arereporting on.
For me, there is more that canbe done.
(14:04):
And this is down to one of ourvalues about doing the right
thing.
So for the other parts oftravel, hotels, apartments,
rail, car hire, groundtransportation, we aren't
formally reporting on theemissions from those areas of
the business yet.
I do know that someorganizations do.
(14:24):
My concern is that standardizedmeasurement that would be a
recognized way of capturing thatand reporting it.
So my thinking is to help ourtravelers to make sustainable
and right choices, working withthose partners that have made
the efforts in their ownsustainability agenda, to
(14:47):
highlight to our travellers whenthey're choosing to stay at any
accommodation or travel byrail, that they know which ones
are the more sustainable.
In time, we will be able toreflect that in our reporting.
But at the moment, I don't feelthe industry is there yet with
a standardised way of reportingemissions across accommodation
(15:09):
suppliers or groundtransportation suppliers.
So we are definitely workingtowards that, but we're not
there yet.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (15:17):
So it's all about making incremental
steps in the right direction.
Absolutely.
And as you say, it's far moreestablished measuring mechanisms
when it comes to air travel.
But can you talk to us a littlebit about those other areas and
maybe give us some tips aroundwhat suppliers can think about
in those areas that perhapsaren't as clearly able to
(15:42):
measure today?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (15:44):
Yes.
And Kerry's right.
The focus on air is consistentacross kind of travel reporting.
Reason for that being when itcomes to business travel
emissions, between 80 and 90percent of emissions come from
air travel.
So in terms of moving levers toreduce emissions, it's where
the biggest impact can happen.
(16:04):
That being said, accommodationis also really important.
And accommodation is somewhatbehind air because there isn't
standard methodology.
I mentioned earlier themethodology that Advito created
called Gate 4, and that doesaccount for accommodation as
well.
So it's air, hotel,accommodation, rail, and car,
(16:25):
because we believe that you doneed that full picture.
What is incredibly complex inthe accommodation sector?
You mentioned accreditations.
The most recent kind of trawlthat we did is that there's
pushing 250 differentaccommodation accreditations for
eco certificates or eco labels.
(16:47):
I mean, it's a minefield.
It's ridiculous.
It's incredibly challenging forboth suppliers and for travel
managers to know what's good.
So part of the work that we didwas to go through and
systematically assess all of thecriteria for all of these
accommodation accreditations.
(17:08):
And we ranked them.
And I won't go through the fulllist of 250 accreditations, but
some of the best ones that youcan sign up to are any
accreditations that are linkedto the Global Sustainable
Tourism Council.
They're incredibly robust.
LEAD.
is also a really good one, asis Green Key and Nordic Swan in
(17:31):
the Nordics regions.
Really, really good.
There's some other good onesout there as well, but in terms
of a snapshot of some of thebest eco-certifications for
accommodation, they're up there.
And the reason they're up thereis because they're very
thorough, they're assessed bythird parties, they provide
clear guidance on improvementsthat can be made, And they're an
(17:53):
annual assessment.
There are others out there.
I'm very disappointed to saythat you can pay £100 and tick
some boxes online and you getyour eco certificate.
And it's really challenging foraccommodation to know what
route they should go down.
And I think it's also reallychallenging that when it comes
to RFP season, and we're headinginto that glorious time now
(18:17):
when it comes to hotelaccommodation RFP season, We
also as well as not havingconsistency in the
accreditation, we don't haveconsistency in what every
corporate is asking for fromtheir providers.
So when it comes to completingRFPs, we know already it's a
painful process.
But now with sustainability andlayer on top D&I, there's so
(18:41):
many questions and there's somany different questions in
terms of what corporatesrequire.
And a lot of that also comesdown to the audit requirements.
So with more legislation comingin, more requirements, the
auditing on your emission datais now becoming more even more
onerous.
It's not just a case of puttingsome figures in front of an
auditor and having it includedin a report anymore.
(19:04):
Part of the work we're doing, abig piece of work we do with
any client we work with onproducing our emission
reporting, is we spend a hugechunk of time talking to the
audit team and talking themthrough the methodology, helping
them understand it, explainingit and validating it so that it
can be included.
And that requirement on auditis going to continue to become a
(19:27):
requirement and challenging.
And I think we will in time getto a point where there is some
consistency to Kerry's pointthat that's the challenge we
have in terms of an agreedglobal solution.
But I don't think it's going tocome quickly.
I think we're getting therewith air now.
Obviously, we have DEFRA as theoriginal, if you like.
And then there's the travelimpact model, Google travel
(19:49):
impact model.
That is, I think, potentiallygoing to become more of an
industry standard, which is veryaligned to what we do with
gatefall calculations.
But hotel, accommodation, rail,car are going to be later
additions, I would say, forconsistency.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (20:05):
I was just jotting down a few notes as he
was speaking there, because Irecently attended a conference
and one of the questions thatcame from the audience around
RFPs and RFIs, and I'd say inrecent years, the greater
visibility of sustainability,D&I, etc.
One of the questions that cameout was, how important is it
really?
(20:25):
when you are assessing otherthings as part of an RFP by
cost.
How really important is that toan organization?
And one of the fellow panelistswho was from a corporate
organization, I think saidsomething very valuable, which
is kind of depends on theorganization.
You know, differentorganizations have a different
focus on sustainability, DE&I,et cetera.
(20:47):
But going back to you, Kerry,you know, Shelley has talked
about the ability to pay 100quid and get a certification.
I know that AstraZeneca isincredibly focused on
sustainability.
It isn't just a tick boxexercise for you.
But how can other organisationslook at selecting providers
(21:09):
that are essentially, there's abit of greenwashing there.
Let's just pay this 100 quid,tick a box.
What should they be looking outfor?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (21:18):
Yeah, I mean, we've spoken previously
leading up to this about thereporting.
So when you do have to fly, youcan get a standard type of
reporting, but it means whoeveryou choose to fly with, you'll
get the report from them.
We're taking it a step furtherand we're working with SBTI, so
the Science Based TargetInitiative.
And basically, we're asking oursuppliers to be verified with
(21:43):
science based targets.
That becomes our constant tosay, that's the measurement that
we recognize.
So it's not a hundred poundsthat you've paid to buy the
certification.
It's a standard that we want touse across not just our travel
suppliers, but across thesuppliers that we work with.
And we started this, I'm goingto say three, maybe four years
(22:05):
ago now, where we made ourpartners, our suppliers aware
that this is the direction wewere going in, that we were
going to be setting the targetsthat you needed to be verified
by.
And so now we're at the pointof with those key suppliers to
say, are you verified?
Do we need to escalate this tohelp you to become verified,
help you to help us?
(22:26):
Or do we just need to exit thispartnership?
Because you're not on the samesustainability agenda and track
that we are.
And we want to partner and workwith and do business with
partners that have the samefocus on sustainability that we
do.
And so that would be, for me,one piece of advice to any
corporate is to find thatstandard that your suppliers can
(22:52):
work with.
Find a standard.
I'm just giving you the onethat we're using, but find a
standard that you accept andacknowledge that as being
approved to be able to approveyour suppliers, the partners
that you work with.
So that's come from the top.
That's not a travel.
That's not me as a travelmanager saying this is the one
we're going to recognise.
(23:13):
That's what we're doing withinthe organisation.
That's the measurement, thestandard that we are going to be
working towards.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (23:20):
Yeah, and that makes absolute sense.
And you said it a couple oftimes whilst you've been
speaking.
All of this has come from thetop.
of your organization.
It's not you as an individualdesperately trying to drive this
initiative forward, nor is itany member of your team.
It really has come from theC-suite and has trickled down to
every individual in yourorganization.
(23:40):
So from that perspective, it'sgreat to see that happen at
AstraZeneca.
It is not the case in manyother organizations.
So what do we think, perhaps,government can do or our
industry associations can do tohelp push in the right direction
when it comes to taking care ofour planet.
(24:02):
Shelley, if you could sharesome of your thoughts on that.
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (24:05):
Yeah, I think there's a huge role for
the industry to play in thisbecause it's not just about a
government setting a framework.
There are many governments allaround the world with very
varying priorities when it comesto where sustainability sits on
their governmental agenda,their political agenda.
So I think there is a role forgovernment to play in supporting
(24:27):
the industry, but my view isthat the industry should and
could be leading this.
Defining what it is that wewant to report on?
How is it that we want toreport?
What is that balance betweencost and sustainability?
And that will be at a businessby business level, but some form
of framework that talks aboutthe benefits and how that's
(24:49):
managed is really important.
And using case studies fromcompanies like AstraZeneca,
where it is led from the top,and you can have both.
It's not sustainability at thecost of business growth.
You can have both.
Taking a sustainable choiceisn't always a more expensive
choice.
You need to have the data to beable to make an informed
choice.
And you might be surprised.
And something we do a lot of islooking at if you are shifting
(25:13):
share from one hotelaccommodation or airline
provider to another, that givesyou greater negotiating power to
get better contracts in place.
So there's lots of opportunityat a business level to do that.
But I think having theindustry, whether that's GBTA as
an industry body, reallychampioning standardization and
(25:33):
that management of the internalprocess to get that buy-in to
help educate leaders withinbusinesses that you can have
both it's not one or the otherand then I think government can
support that where I think wehave a challenge today is in the
requirements that are being putupon travel managers when you
look at CSRD you look at thereporting requirements for that
(25:56):
sustainability directive allacross Europe.
And that's causing hugechallenges.
I think in Germany, they'relooking to have it rolled back
and to change it.
It's a huge ask.
And that's been led, notnecessarily by industry.
So I think industry has a roleto play in really championing
what we can do, how we can doit, and ultimately, Starting
(26:16):
with the end in mind, what isthe goal here?
What are we trying to do?
This isn't reporting andlegislation for the sake of it.
There has to be a reason as towhy we're taking this seriously.
Let's start with that and thenwork backwards in terms of what
do we then need to do to achievethat.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (26:33):
Thank you.
Thank you.
So again, going back to one ofyour comments, you said, you
know, there's the So manycertifications out there.
We've been on this journeyourselves trying to work out
what is the right certificationfor us, what is meaningful, what
is not just greenwashing totick a box in an RFP, RFI
situation.
And one of the things that wehad an extensive discussion
(26:54):
around was offsetting.
Because historically,offsetting has been one of the
easier, I would say, to take.
What, Kerry...
From your perspective atAstraZeneca, what are your
thoughts on offsetting?
And then, Shelley, I'll jumpback to you for your thoughts on
that as well.
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (27:14):
I'm going to put this one more as a Kerry
thought rather than a companythought.
So I go back to doing the rightthing.
So we should be reducing theemissions.
If we use offsetting as a meansto excuse us for doing what
we've done, so we've flown, butwe can offset it so it's all
(27:35):
okay.
paying for it after the fact,that to me doesn't feel like the
right thing to do.
So for me, offsetting comesright at the bottom of the
priority list, that we should betackling our behavior and
reducing the emissions and beingsmarter in what we do and
making more sustainable choices.
(27:57):
For example, at AstraZeneca,we've had this campaign, Every
Mile Matters, and it focuses onthree things.
which is to take the trainrather than the plane, to reduce
one-day trips, so to combineyour meetings and don't keep
going and don't keep travelingdaily, combine them and do two
or three-day trips instead, andto choose sustainable partners.
(28:19):
We've seen the results of thisspeak for themselves.
Behavior has changed.
We have definitely reduced thenumber of one-day trips because
we've seen our accommodationspend go up as a percentage of
total spend.
So it means that people arecombining trips and staying
overnight rather than there andback in a day.
The impact of the message oftaking the train over the plane
(28:43):
has been phenomenal.
We've absolutely reduced ouremissions because of taking the
train.
And for any journey that's fourhours by train, you cannot fly.
We've gone to that extent inEurope.
And again, a longer trainjourney means you need to stay
overnight.
So combined meetings becomesthe sense.
But this is tackling it at thefront.
(29:04):
So reducing emissions, beingmore sustainable rather than
offsetting it after the fact.
Because as I said, it feelslike it's an excuse.
You can use it as an excuse totravel more.
It doesn't matter if I travelmore because I can offset it.
So I'm a little bit wary ofoffsetting.
That said, when we do traveland we have to travel and we
(29:28):
know what our emissions are asan organisation, we offset and
we invest in that.
We are very careful.
We actually have a team thatmanage offsetting.
So let me just put that intoperspective a little bit.
Business travel emissionsaccount for less than 3% of our
total emissions as a companybecause we're a manufacturing
(29:49):
company.
Compare that to a consultingcompany and it's going to be the
inverse of that.
So we do need to offset all ofour emissions, but we do it, if
you like, after the fact so thatthe choices aren't being made
based on the fact that you canoffset.
So that's a perspective.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (30:07):
It makes a lot of sense.
Shelley, what about you?
How are you advising supplierswhen they come to you around
this question?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (30:15):
Very similar view to Kerry in that
this plays a role in thestrategy, but it is not the
strategy.
So I would say that there'ssome really bad offsetting out
there and there's kind of somenot so bad offsetting out there.
But You know, when you look atthe different options for
offsetting, there's been so muchin the press.
(30:37):
If you Google anything aboutoffsetting scandals, you will
see endless news reports aboutcompanies that have, in good
faith, invested in offsettingschemes.
And that money has gone intothings that it really shouldn't
have been going into.
And there have been many issueswhere, for instance, if you go
back even 10, 15, 20 years,people were planting trees.
(31:00):
That was the big thing.
Let's offset and plant a tree.
It is shocking to see how manyof those forests, those areas
where trees have been planted,have been cut down or have been
hit by wildfires and have burntto the ground.
And that just releases all ofthat carbon back into the air.
So it's about being reallyconsidered in what you do choose
(31:20):
to invest in.
It is a part of the strategy.
I agree with Kerry that thereis a need for something, but it
is the last piece of the puzzleas far as we're concerned and
the guidance that we give to ourclients.
And it's to really think andconsider about the areas in
which you invest.
And I think this is anotherarea where the standardization
(31:41):
and the accreditation andcertificates for offsetting is
is really quite messy forinstance one of the best things
you can invest in is whale anddolphin conservation without a
shadow of a doubt because of theamount of carbon that a whale's
body absorbs in its lifetimefar outweighs any forest
reforestation project that's Butyou can't invest in well and
(32:04):
dolphin conservation and get anoffsetting certificate for it.
So therefore, it's not
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (32:09):
necessarily something that people are
choosing to invest in, but itwould be the biggest impact that
you could have.
But I didn't know, though, thatstatistic.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (32:18):
love whales and dolphins so that's
that's a great one
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (32:22):
yeah whale and dolphin conservation
society just sign up to them andon a personal level i do it
when i take a personal trip imake sure i'm contributing to
the whale and dolphinconservation society because
it's a small thing i can do on apersonal level but but this
whole piece around offsetting itis an ongoing debate And it's
really important that we havethe conversation, but it really
(32:43):
worries me when a client comesto us to ask for support and
they say, but don't worry, we'vegot a big offsetting budget.
We'll just offset everything.
It's not a strategy.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (32:52):
Makes complete sense when you put it
like that.
By the way, I suspect thatyou'll be getting a very, very
big thank you from the Whale andDolphin Conservation Society as
a result of this podcast forthat big shout out.
So, look, guys, you have beenabsolutely amazing participants
in this discussion.
I really enjoyed talking toyou.
Just before we wrap up, becauseI know we could talk about this
(33:12):
for hours and hours, but wesadly do need to wrap up.
I'd like to maybe throw a fewquickfire questions at you that
are more or From a personalperspective, and Shelley, you
already shared a bit from apersonal perspective, but I've
got a few questions for youwhere I would like to get your
thoughts.
So I'm going to start with you,Shelley.
When you travel, are you onefor checked luggage or carry
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (33:35):
on?
I'll carry on wherever I can.
I'm too scared of losing myluggage.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (33:41):
Even if you're going on a very long
trip, are you just like a masterpacker?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (33:45):
I try.
I try.
If it can't work, then I alwaystake extras with me in hand
luggage, which worked well forme recently when I got stranded
in Toronto for four hours.
So I was very pleased to haveextra supplies in my carry-on.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (33:59):
Fantastic.
Kerry, what about you?
My question for you is aroundleisure or bleasure.
What's your preference?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (34:06):
I definitely keep the two separate.
That's your question, isn't it?
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (34:10):
That's basically my question, yeah,
because there has been...
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (34:13):
Keep them separate.
If you're doing a businesstrip, stick to business.
And for leisure, and I'm a bigfan of leisure, then definitely
switch off.
Try not to take the laptop.
Remember that out of officebecause downtime is really
important for recharging.
And I think if you blur thelines, neither business or
(34:36):
leisure will benefit.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (34:38):
I completely agree with you.
We're talking aboutsustainability of the planet but
i think that that need todisconnect from work is is
necessary for a sustainableworkforce you know we can't be
contactable 24 7 uh from a workperspective and i i'm totally
with you you know go on holidaylet it be a holiday and then
(35:01):
when you have to travel for worktravel for work and back to you
shelly Are you an early bird ora night owl?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (35:09):
I'm 100% a night owl.
I am not at my best at the Ireally feel for my US
colleagues, they're alwaysonline super early.
I'm very happy to stay onlinelate and talk to them.
If I had to do calls at 6am,you would get no sense out of
me.
So definitely a night owl.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (35:28):
I think I might have lost you a little bit
there, Shelley.
I don't know whether Kerry, youcan hear me.
I'm going to ask you thatquestion as well.
Something that I always, it'ssomething that, yeah, I'm always
really interested in because Iam definitely one side of that
very firmly.
Yeah,
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (35:43):
I'm...
I'm a Shelley.
I'm a night owl.
And my boss is actually basedin the US, so I can keep going
later working with him.
One of my team is based inBrisbane.
So the early calls with her,whilst fun, because I love her
to bits.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (36:02):
An
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (36:03):
absolute killer.
Yeah, just the early starts forme are tough.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (36:06):
Yeah, no, I think that's a three for all
of us.
I'm definitely more of a hotelthan I am a morning person.
And, you know, over the yearsmanaging the global team, it has
been very challenging gettingup for those early APAC calls.
But I do feel for them, they...
It is possibly in a globalbusiness, the region that is
most put upon for out of hourscalls.
And then the very last questionI have, actually, it's not the
(36:29):
very last question.
I've got one before.
Working from home or workingfrom the office?
I'm going to put that to you.
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (36:35):
For me, working from home.
I love the flexibility andflexibility.
I really value the time I getto focus on, yeah, that downtime
and wellbeing rather thancommuting into an office.
That being said, my ideal wouldbe hybrid.
So a few days in the office,face-to-face with colleagues,
you can't beat that interaction.
(36:56):
But if I had to choose 100%office or 100% home, I would
choose home.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (37:01):
What about you, Kerry?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (37:03):
I work the hybrid model.
We have to be in the office for60% of the time, so basically
three days a week.
But the collaboration and theconnecting with people that you
wouldn't normally connect withbecause you're, you know,
working from home for me is thisvery specific thing.
targeted calls and meetingsthat you have related to the
(37:27):
part of the business that you'rein.
And yet when I go into theoffice, I'm sitting next to
other colleagues in procurementor different parts of the
organization.
And we make a point when we'rein the office to have lunch
together.
So you catch up on what otherpeople are doing.
And I have a brilliant example.
I sat at a table recently whereafter being frustrated in the
(37:48):
morning, I was trying to get apurchase order raised with a
part of the organization,struggled to do it, sat next to
a lady at lunchtime and we weretalking about what do you do and
where do you work?
And she said, oh, I work forthis person.
And that's the person that wastrying to get the PO raised
with.
So it just shows you that, youknow, just mixing and mingling
with people that you wouldn'tordinarily do make connections
(38:11):
that you never expected andusually something good comes out
of that so I like that peoplein interactivity like the
connecting unless I'm doing thatcall with my Brisbane team
member at 8 o'clock in themorning and then it's going to
be a working from home daybecause to get into the office
after that will be a nightmareso that hybrid model works well
for me
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (38:32):
I don't disagree with either of you I
mean I often I love having theflexibility to work from home
but Often when I do then go intoan office or join meetings,
live meetings with colleagues, Iremember how much it is I
actually quite like people andhow much more you can get done
when you're face-to-face withthem and, you know, and things
that you perhaps had on yourto-do list for...
for weeks and months and thenjust bumping into the right
(38:55):
person and remembering thatwasn't a priority, but now I can
tick it off my list.
So it's great.
So as we do close up thispodcast, the last question for
both of you is going back to thetheme of the podcast, cost or
planet.
Rui, can you share your finalthoughts with regards to this,
both from a personal perspectiveand, of course, from the
perspective of yourorganisations?
Kerrie Henshaw-Cox (39:17):
For me, I think that both have a value,
have a part to play.
I don't think it's necessarilyone versus the other.
I think in each case, youshould be considering both cost
and sustainability.
And that's certainly the casein managing a travel program.
Our role here is to provideinformation that consultants to
(39:37):
help the business make smart andsustainable decisions in their
world, in their part of thebusiness.
Something's going to be moreimportant to them than the other
at that time.
So I don't think we should beimposing one over the other.
I should think we should begiving them the information and
the knowledge and the insightsto be able to make the right
(40:00):
choice that they need to make,cost and sustainable.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (40:05):
Shelley?
Shelley Fletcher-Bryant (40:05):
Well, I think Kerry's covered it very
eloquently there, but I agree.
I think cost has to play arole.
Of course it does.
We're all businesses and therehas to be a growth element and
cost continues to be a keyfactor.
As I said earlier, it doesn'talways mean that sustainability
(40:26):
costs more than doing somethingelse.
So I agree it can be both.
You can balance both.
The best way to do it is tohave visibility and an
understanding of what youroptions are and then to be
effectively tracking it.
And I think having both afiscal budget and a carbon
budget is a great way of gettingthe balance right.
Manpreet Dhami-Magne (40:47):
Thank you.
Thank you both for your time.
Thank you both for sharing allof your insights and your
experience.
It's been wonderful chatting toyou both.
And just for the audience outthere, thank you for listening
to Room for Thought.
And if you liked, please doshare and subscribe.
Thanks very much.
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