March 18, 2025 • 41 mins
The evolution of hydroplane racing sits at the heart of this captivating conversation with John Walters as he picks up where our previous episode left off, diving deep into his pivotal years working alongside the sport's most influential innovators. From working with Muncey, Lucero, Heerensperger and other greats from the sport, John shares his insight and stories from a special time in racing. This is part 2 of the John Walters interview. Tune in next week for part 3!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Ruchetel Talk, the podcast dedicated to everything
about the sport that we all lovehydroplane racing.
I am your host, david Newton,and it's time once again, so sit
back, relax and welcome toRooster Tail Talk talk.
(00:48):
Hello race fans, it's episode141, and this is part two of my
interview with John Walters.
Now, if you haven't listened topart one of my interview with
John, please stop the tape.
Go back to episode 140 andlisten, because he goes into
great detail about hisbackground and into getting
(01:10):
involved with hydropon racing,what got him interested and his
path to becoming a driver.
It says a lot listening to theepisode because he just has such
a great passion for the sportand is such an intelligent man
that just gives great insight onso many things that the casual
fan would not know.
(01:31):
We're going to continue thattalk today.
He's going to talk more abouthis years with Bill Muncy at
Muncy Racing, getting to knowJim Lucero, david Herrensberger,
some other great and notablepeople around the sport, and
just where his career took offto becoming a full-fledged,
unlimited hydroplane racer.
So let's jump in and get backto my talk with John.
(01:53):
I know down the road you hookedup with Bill Muncy after that
Fast forward, a few years beforeyou got into work with the
Turbine Pan Pack.
You got some time working withMuncie and that team got to know
Lucero I believe a little bitmore on that team and I believe
there was an exhibition run inVancouver, washington, in 1979.
(02:17):
And you got to drive the boatother than Muncie.
Is that correct?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
it is.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
How did that come about?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Well, let me back up just a little bit.
When we were still living inLas Vegas, I get a telephone
call one night from a Mr BobEsplin and Bob had just gotten a
new Stoddaker boat that wasjust a bare hull.
He called and asked me if I'dbe interested in coming to
Seattle and doing all therigging and, you know, putting
(02:46):
this boat together that theycould go race it.
As the Miss Burners, Arlene andI had talked about things, kind
of discussed what was going onand decided that you know, when
the kids were old enough, ourdaughters Katrina and MacIva,
when Katrina was old enough tostart school, that Seattle was
really the area that we thoughtwe wanted to settle down in.
And so this was a dream cometrue to get this telephone call
(03:09):
and, you know, be able to moveto Seattle.
They were going to pay for themove and everything else and
have a job waiting for me whenwe got there and over that next
year and that was 76, when thatseason was over, jerry Kalin the
boat was in Seattle on BoeingField there who owned the boat
in Detroit, really wanted theboat in Detroit and he called
(03:33):
Bob Esplin, had decided that hedidn't want to go back to
Detroit.
And so he called and asked meif I'd be interested in taking
over as the crew chief andmoving to Detroit.
I had made a promise to Arlenethat you know, no, we're not
going to drag the kids out ofschool and move to Detroit.
And as flattered as I was toget that opportunity and that
(03:54):
offer, decided that it probablyjust wasn't in the best interest
of my family at the time.
And so after that phone call,bob asked me what are you doing
for lunch or what are you goingto do?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
after lunch.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
And I said you know, honestly I don't know, and you
know we had agreed that we'd getthe stuff loaded up and whoever
was going to drive it backthere was going to take it back
there.
It wasn't going to be either ofus.
And he said well, if you'd like, if you don't mind, I'd like to
introduce you to somebody andwe'll go to lunch.
And if you don't mind, I'd liketo introduce you to somebody
(04:29):
and we'll go to lunch.
And I said, okay, so we did andwent up Riverside Drive and Bob
Esplin introduced me to DonKelson and said you know, don's
building a bunch of limitedboats here and you know running
really well with these things.
I think there's a lot ofopportunity here for you, john,
to you know, use your skills, toyou know, build boats with him,
help design and build boats forhim, and you're probably going
(04:50):
to get to drive some of them too.
And so that was a dream cometrue for me.
And yes, I was very interestedin doing that.
Little did I know at the timethat just up the street, a
little ways across the streetand up about four blocks, was
what had been the, the pay andpack shop, um, and uh, and, and,
(05:10):
and Bill Muncy, uh, I hadpurchased all the equipment, um,
and was going to build a newboat, um, and so Jim Lucero
dropped into the shop.
You know, quite often he andDon um, you know, you know, went
to lunch together occasionally,and then, and Jim had some
influence on some of the boatsthat we were building,
design-wise and that, and soover time I ended up working
(05:31):
both places, and over time theyboth were more than a full-time
job.
And so Bill Muncy, at aChristmas party, invited me to
be a full-time member of theteam, and I really wanted to do
that.
But at the same time I had anobligation to Don Kelson and the
(05:54):
Kelson family, who had helpedme so much that I couldn't just
walk out on them.
And so the deal was that Iwould stay until we could get,
you know, get a replacement um,and just being up and down the
street like that a little ways.
If they had a problem, needed ahand, um, I could help them,
they could help us, you know,whatever.
So it worked out to be a uh, agood situation for everybody
(06:15):
involved.
So, as it turned out, I didn'trealize that the new boat was
being built at down in, uh,auburn area, uh, normberg, uh,
yeah and um.
And so, uh, the the new, whatwas actually designed and built
and was going to be, uh, thenext pay and pack um was going
(06:37):
to be the.
The blue boat was actuallygoing to be a pay and pack um.
In fact, if, if, uh, you know,anybody remembers in the real
early days, um, all the castingsfor the shaft log and the
rudder bracket and skid finbrackets and all that sort of
thing had pay impact, you know,cast right in them, um and uh,
um, and so that boat was, wasgoing to be the next pay impact
(06:59):
after, after the wing wonder, umand uh, when Bill got involved
and purchased the stuff, daveHerrensberger, after three
national championships and twoof three gold cups, a half a lap
short of the third one therewhen they broke that propeller.
And so I got to be involved inbuilding that new boat,
(07:22):
finishing the boat and workingon the stuff, got to work with
some great people.
Lauren Sawyer, absolutely anincredible talent.
So much fun working with Laurenand our paths crossed several
times, which I talk about in thebook a little bit.
Lauren was just leaving RonJones Marine Engineering as I
was getting there.
So we worked there just a veryshort period of time together
(07:43):
and then spent some time doingsome things when he was with
different teams Lincoln, thriftand different teams.
Over the years Did work withAtlas and helped us build the
boat.
I had just gotten back fromNorm's shop to the shop on
Riverside Drive there and thedecks were on it.
(08:03):
Drive there, um and uh, thedecks were on it.
I was starting to install thehardware, uh, in different
things.
When, uh, when lauren got anoffer to uh to go to another
team and and um, and he went um,chuck king, I believe, was his
name, and lauren was the crewchief on on the boat, and and uh
and uh, and then, of course,and lauren went on to you to
(08:23):
spend a lot of years with theBudweiser and different people
there too.
So so, yeah, it was kind of a awonderful time, but really busy
, working at both shops.
I was working wherever theyneeded me the most and still
racing boats, and every time wegot a boat done at Kelson's I
usually got to to go for a ridein the thing and, and, you know,
(08:45):
help sort it out a little bitbefore we got a boat done at
Kelson's, I usually got to gofor a ride in the thing and help
sort it out a little bit beforewe got it delivered and make
sure that everything worked anddid what it was supposed to do.
And I got a lot of support fromDon and Annette Kelson and the
family, and I got a lot ofsupport from Bill Muncy and Jim
Lucero and that whole group, andso it was the best of literally
(09:06):
of both worlds for me.
We ended up.
I actually got to test the blueboat a couple of times on Lake
Washington before, and so I'dgone for a couple of rides in
the boat.
And it was one of those thingswhere a lot of times, bill would
come up from California, um,cause we wanted to break in
(09:28):
engines or we'd gotten a newpropeller.
A lot of times it was justthings that we needed to put
some time on the stuff.
And uh and uh, and Bill hadcome and watched me drive at
Lake Sammamish a couple of timesand come to some limited races
and and uh, and it was prettyfun to um have, uh, to have Bill
Muncy show up at some of theraces and then hang out in the
pits with me, you know.
So it was a lot of fun there.
But, yeah, then I got theopportunity to drive the boat in
(09:54):
an exhibition race in Vancouver.
Down there, that was.
That was awesome, that was fun,and some of my favorite
pictures on the wall here are ofBill Muncy, you know, putting
me in his boat.
Some of my favorite pictures onthe wall.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Here are of Bill Muncy, you know, putting me in
his boat.
So yeah, that was really cool.
Was that surreal then to belike there, like him helping you
get in the boat and you'redriving his boat?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Very much.
Yeah, I can still remembersitting in the seat thinking
just how wonderful this is,while Bill Muncy is undoing the
front sling, you know, takingthe sling off the boat, and my
dad was there.
I've got some great pictures ofBill and my dad you know, both
my dads together and, yeah, itwas a great time, a really great
time, and just feel so blessedto have had so many
opportunities with so manywonderful people.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah yeah, you just keep rattling off the names,
Like there's so many people thatyou've been involved with over
the years.
Yes, Just it's amazing to thinkback on on on how connected you
are like with, with with allthese people.
Yeah, yeah, Well, you wereworking with Lucero, working
with a lot of, a lot of bignames there, but somewhere
(11:00):
sometime in 79 or so, I believe,Lucero was talking with
Herrensberger about a newproject involving turbines in a
new boat.
He wanted to come back in thesport and you got called up for
that.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, jim was doing some things consulting with Dave
Herrensberger.
Dave had started coming to someof the races and I remember
Dave saying you know, if I hadjust stayed in the sport, all
these races that you guys wonwith the Blue Boat, you know,
could have been pay-in-packvictories.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I knew that he missed it, but I wasn't sure how
serious he was about, you know,getting back involved.
I remember going to dinner withthe guys one night and and
david said, um, he really wantedto get involved in the sport
again, but he wanted to do itdifferent.
He didn't want to do the samething that everybody else was
doing.
Um, and that was fun.
(11:54):
Uh, that was one of the reasonsit was so much fun working with
with dave herrensberger andthat whole pay impact group was
that.
You know, if you look back um,david did it all and he'd run
conventional boats, he'd runCabovers.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
He ran an Allison a.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Rolls-Morland.
He ran Chryslers for a while.
You know so many innovations.
The first honeycomb boat, youknow there may have been boats
that ran rear wings or differentwings here and there at
different times, but I thinkthat Winged Wonder boat is the
one that gets all the credit forthe stuff.
But I think that Winged WonderBoat is the one that gets all
the credit for the stuff andjust so many innovative things
that you know we did boats with,you know, were built out of
(12:30):
foam and honeycomb and carbonfiber and titanium and so much
stuff that no one had ever donebefore and it didn't all work.
But you know, I know,unfortunately in life as well as
boat racing, you always learnthe most from the things that
(12:51):
didn't work.
And we were able to apply thosethings and some of the stuff
that were very innovative at thetime and we really weren't able
to make work to their potential.
A lot of it is now work totheir potential.
A lot of it is now.
You know, when we put thosefront wings on on the pay impact
that I drove, we didn't knowwhere, we didn't know how, we
didn't know.
(13:12):
We just knew what we, we knewwhat the result was that we
wanted, but didn't know how,exactly how to attain it, and
those things caused, caused me,more grief and more problems in
testing than they did.
Good, we just didn't have thetime to really make it work and
to experiment and do this stuffwith it, so we took them off and
raced the boat.
Without them, had we known whatthe next step was going to be
(13:35):
the next evolutionary step, ifyou will.
They were just too close to theleading edge.
If we would have moved themfarther forward, like we did in
the second boat that I never gotthe opportunity to drive that
boat, we would have won raceswith that boat and didn't get
the opportunity.
And that's one of the fewregrets that I have is that I
(13:58):
never got the opportunity todrive that boat.
When it got sold everything to,steve Woomer and Steve Reynolds
got the opportunity to drive theboat.
That thing was a rocket ship,right out of the box and ran
really well and was very muchunder control and very
repeatable.
And that was the big problemwith the boat that I drove.
(14:18):
It was just so inconsistent andnever did the same thing twice.
So inconsistent and never didthe same thing twice.
You know you could run thething in.
You know wind and waterconditions that were exactly the
same and get a different resultevery lap, and I never felt
like I was in control of it.
I always felt like I waschasing it.
So that boat that Steve got theopportunity to drive.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
He had success with that.
I mean a new team and all that,but they had success the the
first year, yeah, with that boatafter it sat for two years,
right, yeah and um, and so therewas there was some conflict
there.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
I got my feelings hurt a little bit, I guess.
Um, that, um, we had that boatsitting on the shop floor
basically ready to go, and thenwe built one very similar to it
in 82 for Chip, after you know,for the Atlas that Chip won his
first gold cup in that thing,you know, came out of the box
(15:21):
fast and ran really well and wasvery controllable and, in
Chip's words, easy to drive.
And I was a little bitfrustrated that we had one home
just like it that was collectingdust right now.
And I remember the conversationand don't get me wrong, I love
Jim Lucero dearly, but Jim hadan ego and Jim's ego is what
(15:45):
kept us from running that boat.
Um, I, I remember theconversation when Jim said if we
don't sort out, if we just jumpship no pun intended, um, if we
just jump ship and don't sortthis boat out, everybody will
think that we couldn't make itwork.
Um, and Jim let his ego get inthe way there.
And, heronsberger, I rememberhim walking out, you know, in
(16:06):
frustration saying I don't care,I just want everybody to think
that we kicked their butt.
You know, in one boat races, Idon't care which boat it is, as
long as it's safe and as long asit's fast.
And so I think Jim's ego wasthat we had to prove that we
could make that first boat workand win races, and then you
could could move on to to theother one, and unfortunately, um
(16:29):
, we didn't get theopportunities to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
So yeah, that's just so sad that that boat never got
to run with the paintback colorson it, because I know that it
went to the torchlight parade.
It did.
People got to see it and, yeah,people wanted to see it on the
water.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
And I just so unfortunately you didn't get to
have the opportunity because Ifeel like there's this huge file
of the what if happened, youknow, in in hydropon racing and
that goes in there Like what,yeah, so it's just, it's too bad
.
I totally agree with you.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, so yeah, that was a frustration for me.
When we got ready to go toMiami in 1982 and we're taking
the old boat, I thought why.
You know, we've already proven,you know how well that boat
(17:18):
works for Chip.
You know, that concept works andI thought it would have been
just as good with, with theturbine in it and um, and as it
turned out, you know, by thatpoint in time we were starting
to make some progress with withthe other boat, um, but again,
it was still not.
It was full of surprises.
(17:39):
Um, you know, I was used toworking with boats and working
on boats, so when you make achange you'd have some idea of
what the result was going to be,um, and in some cases it was,
you know, uh, as predicted, uhand and and somewhat predictable
, but in many cases it was not,and the boat was so light, um
(18:00):
and just unforgiving.
You know, like I say, I feltlike I was, um, really
restricted, uh with with theboat a lot of times, cause you
just never knew what it was wasgoing to do.
Um, and we, you know, over time,evolution, if you will.
I don't know that any of theboats that we did were
revolutionary.
You know it started with the 73wing wonder boat, um.
(18:24):
That boat, um, you know, cameout and it was a thousand pounds
lighter than than most of theboats you know on the circuit, I
mean boats in those days, outof wooden aluminum.
It wasn't completely out ofcharacter for a boat to weigh
8,000 pounds 9,000 pounds.
That winged wonder boat when itwent in the water for the first
(18:46):
time it was like 6,800 poundsand with the things that were
learned there, bothaerodynamically and
hydrodynamically, materials,technology, construction
technique, that sort of thingthe next step was the blue boat
and, uh, and even whether thatboat would have been a pain pack
(19:06):
or whether it came out as itdid, as as the blue blaster,
that boat, um, was a thousandpounds lighter than the the wing
wonder book.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
When that that?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
boat went, went in the water for the first time.
It was like 5,200 pounds.
Wow, wow, yeah, yeah.
Never got a lot heavier thanthat.
We.
We broke it a couple of timesand had to make some repairs.
Um but I don't think the boatever was over you know, 5,500,
um, something like that.
And then the pay and pack samesituation, you know, because of
(19:39):
the lighter driverain and engine.
You know, power package withthe turbine.
David allowed us to use a lotof carbon fiber and a lot of
titanium end ribs in the wingand the strut and the rudder and
everything was all titanium.
That boat was 4,269 pounds whenit went in the water for the
(20:03):
first time.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
No wonder why it was light then.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And a lot of bottom area in it.
There was like 150 square feetof bottom in that thing.
It had a very low angle ofattack and so Jim was thinking
that with the low angle ofattack we needed more square
footage.
As it turned out, just theopposite was what we needed.
And as we figured that out,that's what the second boat was
(20:31):
and the blue boat that Chip wasdriving and the second pay
impact boat and most of theboats that are out there right
now.
They've got a very high angleof attack on the bottom, up
around five degrees and some alittle more, in about 80 square
feet of bottom area, high angleof attack in low amount of
surface area.
And with the Pay-In-Pack it wasjust the opposite.
(20:52):
That thing towards the back wasonly two degrees on the angle
of attack on the bottom and ithad kind of an S-shape in it.
And with all that square footageof bottom.
When it pitched itself up itoverreacted.
Then it was so light physicallyand so much bottom area that it
just wanted to fly away and itdid a time or two.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So yeah, and unfortunately that before you
could race it it went over intri-cities and yeah, yeah, so
geez.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I joke about that a little bit and it's another one
of those quotes that's in thebook.
But Dave Herrensberger promisedme that driving for Pay Impact
would be the high point of mycareer, and it absolutely was.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Figuratively and literally, literally.
Yeah Well, driving a boat,because at that time turbines
there was only one that I thinksuccessfully tried it in the
U-95.
And it was a different turbine,it wasn't the T-55s.
But running those T-55s back in1980 onward was that a bigger
(21:56):
learning curve with thatdifferent power plant.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
It was plant it was.
It was a lot of things thatwere different.
Not just the mechanics and theengineering of working on those
engines was completely different.
The shop had to be set upcompletely different to be able
to do that but the environmentthat we had to supply for them
(22:22):
to be able to run in and runwell, how sensitive they were to
saltwater and that sort ofthing, a lot of stuff that the
U-95 guys knew about and kind ofwarned us about.
In some ways they broke the iceon that stuff and helped make
(22:42):
things for us a little biteasier, a little bit better.
And fortunately you know someof the people Chuck Leifert,
charlie Leifert and some of thepeople that I got the
opportunity to drive it um wasin Dave Herensberger's verbiage
(23:07):
and his his words.
There's a there's a whole storyto how, how I got the
opportunity to drive the boat,dave.
Uh, we were racing at Green Lakestill in those days and that
weekend I was driving sevenboats over the over the weekend
and there were several caseswhere I'd come back to the pitch
, get right out of one boat, getin the other and go out and
(23:28):
drive the thing and ran sevenboats that weekend and won five
of the seven classes andfortunately Dave Herensberger
was there to see that and thatsparked some interest and so
they talked about it a littlebit and when Dave Herensberger
made the offer he said, honestly, we talked about a lot of other
(23:52):
people and he said I have to behonest with you, john, you
weren't the first choice, but weknow with you you don't have a
whole lot of bad habits that youknow we're not going to have to
get somebody that's you knowwon a bunch of races.
You don't have a whole lot ofbad habits that you know we're
not going to have to getsomebody that's that's you know
one of a bunch of races you knowin a Merlin powered boat.
And try to teach them to forgetall of the stuff that they
learned about driving that boatto drive this one.
(24:12):
You're going to learn this forthe first time.
We'd have to retrain somebodyto, you know, if we picked a
more experienced driver.
So that was, that was anadvantage to me.
It was also a huge amount ofpressure.
It was kind of a surprise,honestly.
David Herrensberger showed upat the boat shop there one
(24:34):
afternoon, the Monday or Tuesdayafter the Green Lake race and
he and Jim had spent a fairamount of time in the office
there and David Herrensbergercame out and he said hey, can I
get you to do me a favor?
And it's like, of course you're.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Dave Herrensberger, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, you're my boss, you're, you're, you're my guy.
And he says do you know wherethe Seattle times building is?
And I said yeah, where theSeattle Times building is.
And I said yeah, and he said,about three o'clock, I need you
to take something in there anddrop it off for me.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
And.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I said, yeah, sure, I can do that.
So, anyway, I had no idea,honestly, what was going on.
So they had made arrangements,they'd made the telephone call
and I was going down there to beinterviewed as the new driver
of the new, you know,revolutionary pay-in package,
and so it was like going to asurprise party and everybody
(25:39):
knew but me.
It seemed like.
So, yeah, it was a wonderfulthing, everybody knew.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
But me it seemed like so yeah, it was a wonderful
thing.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
And so when he asked me, you know, would you be
interested in driving this newboat?
I literally had to take asecond to catch my breath and
said, oh my gosh.
Yes, absolutely yes.
You know, we had some wonderfultimes.
We had some bad days, for sure,oh yeah, and some life-changing
(26:05):
experiences.
I tell this story occasionally.
It's been a while since I'vesaid it, but that pay impact
crash I spent 14 months in thehospital and had 20, some major
surgeries.
Wasn't expected to ever walkagain, you know, got an
(26:28):
artificial elbow on one side anda hip on another side and, and
you know, knees and things thatare put together with wires and
screws and plates in my head andface and my back fused in three
places and with all the stuffthat I went, went through, my
family ended up with all thescars.
Um, it was so hard on on themand I can only that's another.
(26:50):
One of the reasons that I wrotethis book was to bring
attention to um, how Arlene didsome of the things that she did
raised our kids, took care ofthe family, still was there
every single day for me in thehospital and, um, it was.
It was life changing for sure,good and bad.
(27:14):
It opened so many doors and wegot the opportunity to go places
and do things and meet peopleand see things that probably
would have never happened had itnot been for the boat racing.
And so you know, yes, therewere some bad days, yes, I lost
some very dear friends, but inthe end, uh, there were more
(27:37):
checks in the good boxes than inthe bad.
Um and um, I'm just so blessedto have been able to to, to be
part of it.
Um, and, frankly, that's one ofthe reasons that I continue to
stay involved now with with H1as a chief safety and technical
inspector is um.
(27:57):
It's my opportunity to you know, maybe teach some young guys um
, um how to keep this sportgoing, um and and make it work
and um.
Too many people, includingmyself, um paid big prices, some
the ultimate price, and then metoo for a short period of time,
(28:18):
I mean if you watch thesequence of that crash.
One year Marlene got a telephonecall from I don't remember if
it was Channel 5 or Channel 7,king or Cairo said that they
were going through their filesand they were going to get rid
of a lot of things after so manyyears and wanted to know if she
(28:39):
wanted some of this stuff or ifshe thought that I would want
some of this stuff.
And a lot of it was boat racingfootage from Seafair and, of
course, mike's last crash andeverything is on there, and it
was a lot of confusion, um, withall the debris in the water and
I looked like a hydroplane yardsale in the first turn there.
(29:00):
And and uh, um, when GeorgeJohnson's boat was sinking, he
swam over and crawled up on thepain pack and people's brains
just instantly thought that thatwas that.
That was me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
And so they were looking for George Johnson in a
completely different area thanwhere John Walters was.
I made a really foolish mistakein those days when I was
driving on a lot of differentboats.
Um, I had different lifejackets for different boats and
different styles and differentthings.
Um, I'd gotten a new lifejacket.
(29:33):
I was so confident that we weregoing to win in seafair.
I wanted all the cool guy stuff.
You know when I did theinterview and uh and ordered it
had ordered a new jack lifejacket from lifeline and
actually it was a rebuilt uhlife lifeline jacket and had the
parachute pack and everythingon the back of it and I would
always put on.
(29:55):
Anytime I got a new life jacketor had it worked on, I'd always
put the jacket on, jump in aswimming pool, jump in the lake
somewhere and make sure that itwould turn me over and do what
it was supposed to do.
This jacket was supposed to bethere the week between
Tri-Cities and Seattle.
It didn't show up.
Then it was supposed to, youknow, be there before.
It ended up coming Saturdayspecial delivery UPS.
(30:20):
They delivered it to the pitsand I didn't get it wet and in
that crash, because of the headinjuries and the different
things, I was unconscious.
It didn't roll me over and Ifloated face down for almost
nine minutes before they got tome Um, and I literally uh, was
clinically dead, had no pulse,was not breathing, uh, no
respiration, no pulse, um, andhad drowned, um, because that
(30:45):
jacket didn't turn me over.
Now part of the problem was wasmy own, my own mistake, um, for
, not for not testing it, butlooking back on it now, what I
think happened was thatparticular jacket had a
parachute pack on the back of it.
Okay, and when I droveconventional boats I would hook
(31:09):
up the parachute.
Conventional boats I would hookup the parachute If you were to
get pitched out of aconventional boat, which usually
would happen if you'd spin outor get in some sort of an
accident sitting in the back.
Back there it would throw youout, and that parachute had the
opportunity to do what it wasdesigned to do In the cabover
boats.
You're sitting so close to theCG and so close to the center of
(31:34):
everything that you rarely getthrown out, and so I didn't hook
up the boat.
I didn't hook up the chutejacket.
Another reason was, if youremember, chip was testing the
Squire at one point in time andblew the thing over testing on
Lake Washington the jacket hehad a jacket just like that with
(31:54):
a parachute pack on it.
The parachute pack got tangledup in the wing bracketry and as
the boat was sinking it waspulling Chip down with it, and
so I didn't hook it up and Ithink what happened was in that
parachute pack.
There's a lot of air in thereand that air tried to make it
(32:16):
float and it did float, with meface down and with me being
unconscious, I, you know,couldn't write myself or turn
myself over, and so I literallydrowned my mistake you know if I
would have jumped in the waterprobably, you know, with that
thing on and that parachute pack, you know filled
up with air like that, I wouldhave noticed that, and so that
(32:39):
was some of the things that Ilearned decided that over the
time that I was getting betterand I still couldn't go back to
work it took almost three yearsbefore I could, you know, really
hold down a job again thatthere ought to be a, a committee
(33:02):
, if you will, that investigatesaccidents and see what happened
and see, you know, whatinjuries the driver you know
received and and why and whatcould we do to fix that and what
could we do to help that andwhat could we do to help that?
And so um um, the competitioncommittee and a lot of others.
You know, things that are thatare in place right now is a
result of me being a crash testdummy, um and um and trying to
(33:28):
prevent those kinds of thingsfrom happening to other people.
So, um, a lot of times, like mycareer and other things, you
know there's bad days, but ifyou can learn from those bad
days and keep those bad days toa minimum and Jim Lucero and I
figured out a long, long timeago that we're never going to be
(33:48):
able to make these boats towhere they don't crash the best
thing you can do is make thecrashes survivable, give the
driver the best opportunity tosurvive a crash.
And and I and I think you knowthere's still, there's always
room for improvement.
But other than george stratton,we haven't lost a driver and
(34:10):
and really had any drivers veryseriously injured.
Right, you know, with theadvent of the seatbelts and the
enclosed cockpit and thebreathing system and all, the
things that we're doing thesedays.
Generally you know if a boatgets upside down or there's a
collision or a bad crash,usually you know.
(34:31):
The worst is, you know, knowthe driver's got a damaged ego
and wet pants and uh, and thoseare easy to fix yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
It's been fascinating to watch the evolution of the
safety of the sport becausethere's so many little things
that have have combined to tomake it to where it is today and
and thankfully you're stillhere to help with that and it
wasn't the ultimate sacrifice.
I'm so thankful for that.
And we've only lost one driverin the unlimited ranks at least
since 1981, 82 with channel,with and I want to talk more,
(35:02):
more about the safety thingsthat you've contributed in your
career after after racing.
But was, I'm just curious with,when people's careers end, and
I know yours was different thanthan most.
You had 14 months in thehospital and countless surgeries
and all that was.
Was it easy for you at thatpoint to say I'm done and walk
(35:27):
away as a driver at least?
Speaker 2 (35:29):
No, actually it was not.
It was very frustrating and andI'll be honest with you, I was
angry about it.
Um, I I'd worked my whole lifeto get to where we were finally
at a point in my career where Ithought we could win some boat
races, um, and even in seattle.
Uh, that weekend we'd madeenough changes in the boat.
(35:50):
Um, I was fast qualifier on thefirst day that thing ran 140
miles an hour, right off thetrailer, right out of the box,
and it was so easy to drive.
It was so easy.
I felt like I was just outthere cruising around and I came
back and when the guys told mehow fast it was, I was surprised
(36:12):
but I was angry that I feltlike, geez, all that I've been
through and all that I've done,and I'm and I'm not going to get
to do the things that I wantedto do as a driver, I'm not going
to win a bunch of races and I'mnot going to, um, you know, win
a bunch of gold cups andnational championships and and
that sort of thing.
And I I felt like I still had alot to give, a lot to offer and
(36:35):
, especially with thoseexperiences, thought that you
know, I I could, I could do somegood for the sport with the
things that that I've learned,um, and could prevent happening
to other people, other drivers,other teams.
I felt like I owed this sportsomething and so I got involved
again, Um, and Dave Herensbergerum, I love that man very easily
(37:01):
.
After that crash, uh, when hedecided that, you know, he
couldn't do that anymore, Uh,didn't want to take a chance on
hurting another driver orkilling one when he sold all the
equipment.
He could have very easily saidgeez, John man, I'm sorry you
got hurt.
Good luck with whatever youdecide to do.
(37:22):
But he didn't.
He put his arm around me and hesaid as long as I've got
anything to do with thisbusiness, you've got a job here.
Wow, you've got a job here.
And I started going through astore management training
program to be a store manager orsomething in the Pay Pack
company and I was okay at itbecause of my experience with my
(37:48):
dad's businesses and things Iknew all about plumbing and
electrical and heating and airconditioning and all the things
that Pay Pack sold.
I was familiar with all thatstuff and I'd used all those
tools and different things and Iwas a good sales guy for the
store and worked hard at it andI think could have been
(38:09):
successful at that.
But my heart wasn't in it and Ifelt bad going to work every
day that I need to try harder.
I need, I need to to be moreinvolved here.
I need to.
I need to give more.
I need to.
I need to have as much fun goingto work as you know, selling um
toilets as I did, driving arace boat, Um and um.
(38:32):
It wasn't easy and Arlene knewthat and she understood that and
she's a big part of the reasonthat I got better and she's a
big part of the reason, with thelove and the support and that
of the family, that I was ableto get better and prove so many
doctors wrong they literallythought I'd never walk again and
(38:53):
you know, to be able to do someof the things that I can.
It's a true blessing and I'mgrateful and thankful for that
every day.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Well, I know I said this in the interview already,
but we're so fortunate thatJohn's still with us today and
that that crash did not take hislife.
So scary to think back on andjust to reflect on those wrecks
that happened back in the dayand where drivers usually did
leave us in the bad way.
But we're going to continue thetalk.
(39:24):
Next week we're going to havepart three of my interview with
John Walters.
Until then, check us out onsocial media.
We're on Facebook, instagram.
You can check us out on ourwebsite online,
wwwroostertaltalkcom.
On there You're going to see alot of fun stuff, all the
episodes.
But don't forget there is asubscription that you can sign
(39:46):
up for called Roostertail TalkPlus, and it's a subscription to
give back to the viewers withsome fun photos from previous
years, articles from back in theday, but also you get early
access to all new episodes.
I really appreciate all thesubscribers I have so far.
It really helps to pay some ofthe bills that goes into having
(40:08):
a podcast because, as I saidbefore, I am am a teacher.
This comes out of my own timeand time, but anything is
appreciated from you, the fan.
That's all I got for this week,so until next time, I hope to
see you at the races.
Ruchetel Talk, the podcast dedicated to everything
about the sport that we all lovehydroplane racing.
I am your host, david Newton,and it's time once again, so sit
back, relax and welcome toRooster Tail Talk talk.
(00:48):
Hello race fans, it's episode141, and this is part two of my
interview with John Walters.
Now, if you haven't listened topart one of my interview with
John, please stop the tape.
Go back to episode 140 andlisten, because he goes into
great detail about hisbackground and into getting
(01:10):
involved with hydropon racing,what got him interested and his
path to becoming a driver.
It says a lot listening to theepisode because he just has such
a great passion for the sportand is such an intelligent man
that just gives great insight onso many things that the casual
fan would not know.
(01:31):
We're going to continue thattalk today.
He's going to talk more abouthis years with Bill Muncy at
Muncy Racing, getting to knowJim Lucero, david Herrensberger,
some other great and notablepeople around the sport, and
just where his career took offto becoming a full-fledged,
unlimited hydroplane racer.
So let's jump in and get backto my talk with John.
(01:53):
I know down the road you hookedup with Bill Muncy after that
Fast forward, a few years beforeyou got into work with the
Turbine Pan Pack.
You got some time working withMuncie and that team got to know
Lucero I believe a little bitmore on that team and I believe
there was an exhibition run inVancouver, washington, in 1979.
(02:17):
And you got to drive the boatother than Muncie.
Is that correct?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
it is.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
How did that come about?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Well, let me back up just a little bit.
When we were still living inLas Vegas, I get a telephone
call one night from a Mr BobEsplin and Bob had just gotten a
new Stoddaker boat that wasjust a bare hull.
He called and asked me if I'dbe interested in coming to
Seattle and doing all therigging and, you know, putting
(02:46):
this boat together that theycould go race it.
As the Miss Burners, Arlene andI had talked about things, kind
of discussed what was going onand decided that you know, when
the kids were old enough, ourdaughters Katrina and MacIva,
when Katrina was old enough tostart school, that Seattle was
really the area that we thoughtwe wanted to settle down in.
And so this was a dream cometrue to get this telephone call
(03:09):
and, you know, be able to moveto Seattle.
They were going to pay for themove and everything else and
have a job waiting for me whenwe got there and over that next
year and that was 76, when thatseason was over, jerry Kalin the
boat was in Seattle on BoeingField there who owned the boat
in Detroit, really wanted theboat in Detroit and he called
(03:33):
Bob Esplin, had decided that hedidn't want to go back to
Detroit.
And so he called and asked meif I'd be interested in taking
over as the crew chief andmoving to Detroit.
I had made a promise to Arlenethat you know, no, we're not
going to drag the kids out ofschool and move to Detroit.
And as flattered as I was toget that opportunity and that
(03:54):
offer, decided that it probablyjust wasn't in the best interest
of my family at the time.
And so after that phone call,bob asked me what are you doing
for lunch or what are you goingto do?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
after lunch.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
And I said you know, honestly I don't know, and you
know we had agreed that we'd getthe stuff loaded up and whoever
was going to drive it backthere was going to take it back
there.
It wasn't going to be either ofus.
And he said well, if you'd like, if you don't mind, I'd like to
introduce you to somebody andwe'll go to lunch.
And if you don't mind, I'd liketo introduce you to somebody
(04:29):
and we'll go to lunch.
And I said, okay, so we did andwent up Riverside Drive and Bob
Esplin introduced me to DonKelson and said you know, don's
building a bunch of limitedboats here and you know running
really well with these things.
I think there's a lot ofopportunity here for you, john,
to you know, use your skills, toyou know, build boats with him,
help design and build boats forhim, and you're probably going
(04:50):
to get to drive some of them too.
And so that was a dream cometrue for me.
And yes, I was very interestedin doing that.
Little did I know at the timethat just up the street, a
little ways across the streetand up about four blocks, was
what had been the, the pay andpack shop, um, and uh, and, and,
(05:10):
and Bill Muncy, uh, I hadpurchased all the equipment, um,
and was going to build a newboat, um, and so Jim Lucero
dropped into the shop.
You know, quite often he andDon um, you know, you know, went
to lunch together occasionally,and then, and Jim had some
influence on some of the boatsthat we were building,
design-wise and that, and soover time I ended up working
(05:31):
both places, and over time theyboth were more than a full-time
job.
And so Bill Muncy, at aChristmas party, invited me to
be a full-time member of theteam, and I really wanted to do
that.
But at the same time I had anobligation to Don Kelson and the
(05:54):
Kelson family, who had helpedme so much that I couldn't just
walk out on them.
And so the deal was that Iwould stay until we could get,
you know, get a replacement um,and just being up and down the
street like that a little ways.
If they had a problem, needed ahand, um, I could help them,
they could help us, you know,whatever.
So it worked out to be a uh, agood situation for everybody
(06:15):
involved.
So, as it turned out, I didn'trealize that the new boat was
being built at down in, uh,auburn area, uh, normberg, uh,
yeah and um.
And so, uh, the the new, whatwas actually designed and built
and was going to be, uh, thenext pay and pack um was going
(06:37):
to be the.
The blue boat was actuallygoing to be a pay and pack um.
In fact, if, if, uh, you know,anybody remembers in the real
early days, um, all the castingsfor the shaft log and the
rudder bracket and skid finbrackets and all that sort of
thing had pay impact, you know,cast right in them, um and uh,
um, and so that boat was, wasgoing to be the next pay impact
(06:59):
after, after the wing wonder, umand uh, when Bill got involved
and purchased the stuff, daveHerrensberger, after three
national championships and twoof three gold cups, a half a lap
short of the third one therewhen they broke that propeller.
And so I got to be involved inbuilding that new boat,
(07:22):
finishing the boat and workingon the stuff, got to work with
some great people.
Lauren Sawyer, absolutely anincredible talent.
So much fun working with Laurenand our paths crossed several
times, which I talk about in thebook a little bit.
Lauren was just leaving RonJones Marine Engineering as I
was getting there.
So we worked there just a veryshort period of time together
(07:43):
and then spent some time doingsome things when he was with
different teams Lincoln, thriftand different teams.
Over the years Did work withAtlas and helped us build the
boat.
I had just gotten back fromNorm's shop to the shop on
Riverside Drive there and thedecks were on it.
(08:03):
Drive there, um and uh, thedecks were on it.
I was starting to install thehardware, uh, in different
things.
When, uh, when lauren got anoffer to uh to go to another
team and and um, and he went um,chuck king, I believe, was his
name, and lauren was the crewchief on on the boat, and and uh
and uh, and then, of course,and lauren went on to you to
(08:23):
spend a lot of years with theBudweiser and different people
there too.
So so, yeah, it was kind of a awonderful time, but really busy
, working at both shops.
I was working wherever theyneeded me the most and still
racing boats, and every time wegot a boat done at Kelson's I
usually got to to go for a ridein the thing and, and, you know,
(08:45):
help sort it out a little bitbefore we got a boat done at
Kelson's, I usually got to gofor a ride in the thing and help
sort it out a little bit beforewe got it delivered and make
sure that everything worked anddid what it was supposed to do.
And I got a lot of support fromDon and Annette Kelson and the
family, and I got a lot ofsupport from Bill Muncy and Jim
Lucero and that whole group, andso it was the best of literally
(09:06):
of both worlds for me.
We ended up.
I actually got to test the blueboat a couple of times on Lake
Washington before, and so I'dgone for a couple of rides in
the boat.
And it was one of those thingswhere a lot of times, bill would
come up from California, um,cause we wanted to break in
(09:28):
engines or we'd gotten a newpropeller.
A lot of times it was justthings that we needed to put
some time on the stuff.
And uh and uh, and Bill hadcome and watched me drive at
Lake Sammamish a couple of timesand come to some limited races
and and uh, and it was prettyfun to um have, uh, to have Bill
Muncy show up at some of theraces and then hang out in the
pits with me, you know.
So it was a lot of fun there.
But, yeah, then I got theopportunity to drive the boat in
(09:54):
an exhibition race in Vancouver.
Down there, that was.
That was awesome, that was fun,and some of my favorite
pictures on the wall here are ofBill Muncy, you know, putting
me in his boat.
Some of my favorite pictures onthe wall.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Here are of Bill Muncy, you know, putting me in
his boat.
So yeah, that was really cool.
Was that surreal then to belike there, like him helping you
get in the boat and you'redriving his boat?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Very much.
Yeah, I can still remembersitting in the seat thinking
just how wonderful this is,while Bill Muncy is undoing the
front sling, you know, takingthe sling off the boat, and my
dad was there.
I've got some great pictures ofBill and my dad you know, both
my dads together and, yeah, itwas a great time, a really great
time, and just feel so blessedto have had so many
opportunities with so manywonderful people.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah yeah, you just keep rattling off the names,
Like there's so many people thatyou've been involved with over
the years.
Yes, Just it's amazing to thinkback on on on how connected you
are like with, with with allthese people.
Yeah, yeah, Well, you wereworking with Lucero, working
with a lot of, a lot of bignames there, but somewhere
(11:00):
sometime in 79 or so, I believe,Lucero was talking with
Herrensberger about a newproject involving turbines in a
new boat.
He wanted to come back in thesport and you got called up for
that.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, jim was doing some things consulting with Dave
Herrensberger.
Dave had started coming to someof the races and I remember
Dave saying you know, if I hadjust stayed in the sport, all
these races that you guys wonwith the Blue Boat, you know,
could have been pay-in-packvictories.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I knew that he missed it, but I wasn't sure how
serious he was about, you know,getting back involved.
I remember going to dinner withthe guys one night and and
david said, um, he really wantedto get involved in the sport
again, but he wanted to do itdifferent.
He didn't want to do the samething that everybody else was
doing.
Um, and that was fun.
(11:54):
Uh, that was one of the reasonsit was so much fun working with
with dave herrensberger andthat whole pay impact group was
that.
You know, if you look back um,david did it all and he'd run
conventional boats, he'd runCabovers.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
He ran an Allison a.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Rolls-Morland.
He ran Chryslers for a while.
You know so many innovations.
The first honeycomb boat, youknow there may have been boats
that ran rear wings or differentwings here and there at
different times, but I thinkthat Winged Wonder boat is the
one that gets all the credit forthe stuff.
But I think that Winged WonderBoat is the one that gets all
the credit for the stuff andjust so many innovative things
that you know we did boats with,you know, were built out of
(12:30):
foam and honeycomb and carbonfiber and titanium and so much
stuff that no one had ever donebefore and it didn't all work.
But you know, I know,unfortunately in life as well as
boat racing, you always learnthe most from the things that
(12:51):
didn't work.
And we were able to apply thosethings and some of the stuff
that were very innovative at thetime and we really weren't able
to make work to their potential.
A lot of it is now work totheir potential.
A lot of it is now.
You know, when we put thosefront wings on on the pay impact
that I drove, we didn't knowwhere, we didn't know how, we
didn't know.
(13:12):
We just knew what we, we knewwhat the result was that we
wanted, but didn't know how,exactly how to attain it, and
those things caused, caused me,more grief and more problems in
testing than they did.
Good, we just didn't have thetime to really make it work and
to experiment and do this stuffwith it, so we took them off and
raced the boat.
Without them, had we known whatthe next step was going to be
(13:35):
the next evolutionary step, ifyou will.
They were just too close to theleading edge.
If we would have moved themfarther forward, like we did in
the second boat that I never gotthe opportunity to drive that
boat, we would have won raceswith that boat and didn't get
the opportunity.
And that's one of the fewregrets that I have is that I
(13:58):
never got the opportunity todrive that boat.
When it got sold everything to,steve Woomer and Steve Reynolds
got the opportunity to drive theboat.
That thing was a rocket ship,right out of the box and ran
really well and was very muchunder control and very
repeatable.
And that was the big problemwith the boat that I drove.
(14:18):
It was just so inconsistent andnever did the same thing twice.
So inconsistent and never didthe same thing twice.
You know you could run thething in.
You know wind and waterconditions that were exactly the
same and get a different resultevery lap, and I never felt
like I was in control of it.
I always felt like I waschasing it.
So that boat that Steve got theopportunity to drive.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
He had success with that.
I mean a new team and all that,but they had success the the
first year, yeah, with that boatafter it sat for two years,
right, yeah and um, and so therewas there was some conflict
there.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
I got my feelings hurt a little bit, I guess.
Um, that, um, we had that boatsitting on the shop floor
basically ready to go, and thenwe built one very similar to it
in 82 for Chip, after you know,for the Atlas that Chip won his
first gold cup in that thing,you know, came out of the box
(15:21):
fast and ran really well and wasvery controllable and, in
Chip's words, easy to drive.
And I was a little bitfrustrated that we had one home
just like it that was collectingdust right now.
And I remember the conversationand don't get me wrong, I love
Jim Lucero dearly, but Jim hadan ego and Jim's ego is what
(15:45):
kept us from running that boat.
Um, I, I remember theconversation when Jim said if we
don't sort out, if we just jumpship no pun intended, um, if we
just jump ship and don't sortthis boat out, everybody will
think that we couldn't make itwork.
Um, and Jim let his ego get inthe way there.
And, heronsberger, I rememberhim walking out, you know, in
(16:06):
frustration saying I don't care,I just want everybody to think
that we kicked their butt.
You know, in one boat races, Idon't care which boat it is, as
long as it's safe and as long asit's fast.
And so I think Jim's ego wasthat we had to prove that we
could make that first boat workand win races, and then you
could could move on to to theother one, and unfortunately, um
(16:29):
, we didn't get theopportunities to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
So yeah, that's just so sad that that boat never got
to run with the paintback colorson it, because I know that it
went to the torchlight parade.
It did.
People got to see it and, yeah,people wanted to see it on the
water.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
And I just so unfortunately you didn't get to
have the opportunity because Ifeel like there's this huge file
of the what if happened, youknow, in in hydropon racing and
that goes in there Like what,yeah, so it's just, it's too bad
.
I totally agree with you.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, so yeah, that was a frustration for me.
When we got ready to go toMiami in 1982 and we're taking
the old boat, I thought why.
You know, we've already proven,you know how well that boat
(17:18):
works for Chip.
You know, that concept works andI thought it would have been
just as good with, with theturbine in it and um, and as it
turned out, you know, by thatpoint in time we were starting
to make some progress with withthe other boat, um, but again,
it was still not.
It was full of surprises.
(17:39):
Um, you know, I was used toworking with boats and working
on boats, so when you make achange you'd have some idea of
what the result was going to be,um, and in some cases it was,
you know, uh, as predicted, uhand and and somewhat predictable
, but in many cases it was not,and the boat was so light, um
(18:00):
and just unforgiving.
You know, like I say, I feltlike I was, um, really
restricted, uh with with theboat a lot of times, cause you
just never knew what it was wasgoing to do.
Um, and we, you know, over time,evolution, if you will.
I don't know that any of theboats that we did were
revolutionary.
You know it started with the 73wing wonder boat, um.
(18:24):
That boat, um, you know, cameout and it was a thousand pounds
lighter than than most of theboats you know on the circuit, I
mean boats in those days, outof wooden aluminum.
It wasn't completely out ofcharacter for a boat to weigh
8,000 pounds 9,000 pounds.
That winged wonder boat when itwent in the water for the first
(18:46):
time it was like 6,800 poundsand with the things that were
learned there, bothaerodynamically and
hydrodynamically, materials,technology, construction
technique, that sort of thingthe next step was the blue boat
and, uh, and even whether thatboat would have been a pain pack
(19:06):
or whether it came out as itdid, as as the blue blaster,
that boat, um, was a thousandpounds lighter than the the wing
wonder book.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
When that that?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
boat went, went in the water for the first time.
It was like 5,200 pounds.
Wow, wow, yeah, yeah.
Never got a lot heavier thanthat.
We.
We broke it a couple of timesand had to make some repairs.
Um but I don't think the boatever was over you know, 5,500,
um, something like that.
And then the pay and pack samesituation, you know, because of
(19:39):
the lighter driverain and engine.
You know, power package withthe turbine.
David allowed us to use a lotof carbon fiber and a lot of
titanium end ribs in the wingand the strut and the rudder and
everything was all titanium.
That boat was 4,269 pounds whenit went in the water for the
(20:03):
first time.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
No wonder why it was light then.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And a lot of bottom area in it.
There was like 150 square feetof bottom in that thing.
It had a very low angle ofattack and so Jim was thinking
that with the low angle ofattack we needed more square
footage.
As it turned out, just theopposite was what we needed.
And as we figured that out,that's what the second boat was
(20:31):
and the blue boat that Chip wasdriving and the second pay
impact boat and most of theboats that are out there right
now.
They've got a very high angleof attack on the bottom, up
around five degrees and some alittle more, in about 80 square
feet of bottom area, high angleof attack in low amount of
surface area.
And with the Pay-In-Pack it wasjust the opposite.
(20:52):
That thing towards the back wasonly two degrees on the angle
of attack on the bottom and ithad kind of an S-shape in it.
And with all that square footageof bottom.
When it pitched itself up itoverreacted.
Then it was so light physicallyand so much bottom area that it
just wanted to fly away and itdid a time or two.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So yeah, and unfortunately that before you
could race it it went over intri-cities and yeah, yeah, so
geez.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I joke about that a little bit and it's another one
of those quotes that's in thebook.
But Dave Herrensberger promisedme that driving for Pay Impact
would be the high point of mycareer, and it absolutely was.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Figuratively and literally, literally.
Yeah Well, driving a boat,because at that time turbines
there was only one that I thinksuccessfully tried it in the
U-95.
And it was a different turbine,it wasn't the T-55s.
But running those T-55s back in1980 onward was that a bigger
(21:56):
learning curve with thatdifferent power plant.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
It was plant it was.
It was a lot of things thatwere different.
Not just the mechanics and theengineering of working on those
engines was completely different.
The shop had to be set upcompletely different to be able
to do that but the environmentthat we had to supply for them
(22:22):
to be able to run in and runwell, how sensitive they were to
saltwater and that sort ofthing, a lot of stuff that the
U-95 guys knew about and kind ofwarned us about.
In some ways they broke the iceon that stuff and helped make
(22:42):
things for us a little biteasier, a little bit better.
And fortunately you know someof the people Chuck Leifert,
charlie Leifert and some of thepeople that I got the
opportunity to drive it um wasin Dave Herensberger's verbiage
(23:07):
and his his words.
There's a there's a whole storyto how, how I got the
opportunity to drive the boat,dave.
Uh, we were racing at Green Lakestill in those days and that
weekend I was driving sevenboats over the over the weekend
and there were several caseswhere I'd come back to the pitch
, get right out of one boat, getin the other and go out and
(23:28):
drive the thing and ran sevenboats that weekend and won five
of the seven classes andfortunately Dave Herensberger
was there to see that and thatsparked some interest and so
they talked about it a littlebit and when Dave Herensberger
made the offer he said, honestly, we talked about a lot of other
(23:52):
people and he said I have to behonest with you, john, you
weren't the first choice, but weknow with you you don't have a
whole lot of bad habits that youknow we're not going to have to
get somebody that's you knowwon a bunch of races.
You don't have a whole lot ofbad habits that you know we're
not going to have to getsomebody that's that's you know
one of a bunch of races you knowin a Merlin powered boat.
And try to teach them to forgetall of the stuff that they
learned about driving that boatto drive this one.
(24:12):
You're going to learn this forthe first time.
We'd have to retrain somebodyto, you know, if we picked a
more experienced driver.
So that was, that was anadvantage to me.
It was also a huge amount ofpressure.
It was kind of a surprise,honestly.
David Herrensberger showed upat the boat shop there one
(24:34):
afternoon, the Monday or Tuesdayafter the Green Lake race and
he and Jim had spent a fairamount of time in the office
there and David Herrensbergercame out and he said hey, can I
get you to do me a favor?
And it's like, of course you're.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Dave Herrensberger, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, you're my boss, you're, you're, you're my guy.
And he says do you know wherethe Seattle times building is?
And I said yeah, where theSeattle Times building is.
And I said yeah, and he said,about three o'clock, I need you
to take something in there anddrop it off for me.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
And.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I said, yeah, sure, I can do that.
So, anyway, I had no idea,honestly, what was going on.
So they had made arrangements,they'd made the telephone call
and I was going down there to beinterviewed as the new driver
of the new, you know,revolutionary pay-in package,
and so it was like going to asurprise party and everybody
(25:39):
knew but me.
It seemed like.
So, yeah, it was a wonderfulthing, everybody knew.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
But me it seemed like so yeah, it was a wonderful
thing.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
And so when he asked me, you know, would you be
interested in driving this newboat?
I literally had to take asecond to catch my breath and
said, oh my gosh.
Yes, absolutely yes.
You know, we had some wonderfultimes.
We had some bad days, for sure,oh yeah, and some life-changing
(26:05):
experiences.
I tell this story occasionally.
It's been a while since I'vesaid it, but that pay impact
crash I spent 14 months in thehospital and had 20, some major
surgeries.
Wasn't expected to ever walkagain, you know, got an
(26:28):
artificial elbow on one side anda hip on another side and, and
you know, knees and things thatare put together with wires and
screws and plates in my head andface and my back fused in three
places and with all the stuffthat I went, went through, my
family ended up with all thescars.
Um, it was so hard on on themand I can only that's another.
(26:50):
One of the reasons that I wrotethis book was to bring
attention to um, how Arlene didsome of the things that she did
raised our kids, took care ofthe family, still was there
every single day for me in thehospital and, um, it was.
It was life changing for sure,good and bad.
(27:14):
It opened so many doors and wegot the opportunity to go places
and do things and meet peopleand see things that probably
would have never happened had itnot been for the boat racing.
And so you know, yes, therewere some bad days, yes, I lost
some very dear friends, but inthe end, uh, there were more
(27:37):
checks in the good boxes than inthe bad.
Um and um, I'm just so blessedto have been able to to, to be
part of it.
Um, and, frankly, that's one ofthe reasons that I continue to
stay involved now with with H1as a chief safety and technical
inspector is um.
(27:57):
It's my opportunity to you know, maybe teach some young guys um
, um how to keep this sportgoing, um and and make it work
and um.
Too many people, includingmyself, um paid big prices, some
the ultimate price, and then metoo for a short period of time,
(28:18):
I mean if you watch thesequence of that crash.
One year Marlene got a telephonecall from I don't remember if
it was Channel 5 or Channel 7,king or Cairo said that they
were going through their filesand they were going to get rid
of a lot of things after so manyyears and wanted to know if she
(28:39):
wanted some of this stuff or ifshe thought that I would want
some of this stuff.
And a lot of it was boat racingfootage from Seafair and, of
course, mike's last crash andeverything is on there, and it
was a lot of confusion, um, withall the debris in the water and
I looked like a hydroplane yardsale in the first turn there.
(29:00):
And and uh, um, when GeorgeJohnson's boat was sinking, he
swam over and crawled up on thepain pack and people's brains
just instantly thought that thatwas that.
That was me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
And so they were looking for George Johnson in a
completely different area thanwhere John Walters was.
I made a really foolish mistakein those days when I was
driving on a lot of differentboats.
Um, I had different lifejackets for different boats and
different styles and differentthings.
Um, I'd gotten a new lifejacket.
(29:33):
I was so confident that we weregoing to win in seafair.
I wanted all the cool guy stuff.
You know when I did theinterview and uh and ordered it
had ordered a new jack lifejacket from lifeline and
actually it was a rebuilt uhlife lifeline jacket and had the
parachute pack and everythingon the back of it and I would
always put on.
(29:55):
Anytime I got a new life jacketor had it worked on, I'd always
put the jacket on, jump in aswimming pool, jump in the lake
somewhere and make sure that itwould turn me over and do what
it was supposed to do.
This jacket was supposed to bethere the week between
Tri-Cities and Seattle.
It didn't show up.
Then it was supposed to, youknow, be there before.
It ended up coming Saturdayspecial delivery UPS.
(30:20):
They delivered it to the pitsand I didn't get it wet and in
that crash, because of the headinjuries and the different
things, I was unconscious.
It didn't roll me over and Ifloated face down for almost
nine minutes before they got tome Um, and I literally uh, was
clinically dead, had no pulse,was not breathing, uh, no
respiration, no pulse, um, andhad drowned, um, because that
(30:45):
jacket didn't turn me over.
Now part of the problem was wasmy own, my own mistake, um, for
, not for not testing it, butlooking back on it now, what I
think happened was thatparticular jacket had a
parachute pack on the back of it.
Okay, and when I droveconventional boats I would hook
(31:09):
up the parachute.
Conventional boats I would hookup the parachute If you were to
get pitched out of aconventional boat, which usually
would happen if you'd spin outor get in some sort of an
accident sitting in the back.
Back there it would throw youout, and that parachute had the
opportunity to do what it wasdesigned to do In the cabover
boats.
You're sitting so close to theCG and so close to the center of
(31:34):
everything that you rarely getthrown out, and so I didn't hook
up the boat.
I didn't hook up the chutejacket.
Another reason was, if youremember, chip was testing the
Squire at one point in time andblew the thing over testing on
Lake Washington the jacket hehad a jacket just like that with
(31:54):
a parachute pack on it.
The parachute pack got tangledup in the wing bracketry and as
the boat was sinking it waspulling Chip down with it, and
so I didn't hook it up and Ithink what happened was in that
parachute pack.
There's a lot of air in thereand that air tried to make it
(32:16):
float and it did float, with meface down and with me being
unconscious, I, you know,couldn't write myself or turn
myself over, and so I literallydrowned my mistake you know if I
would have jumped in the waterprobably, you know, with that
thing on and that parachute pack, you know filled
up with air like that, I wouldhave noticed that, and so that
(32:39):
was some of the things that Ilearned decided that over the
time that I was getting betterand I still couldn't go back to
work it took almost three yearsbefore I could, you know, really
hold down a job again thatthere ought to be a, a committee
(33:02):
, if you will, that investigatesaccidents and see what happened
and see, you know, whatinjuries the driver you know
received and and why and whatcould we do to fix that and what
could we do to help that andwhat could we do to help that?
And so um um, the competitioncommittee and a lot of others.
You know, things that are thatare in place right now is a
result of me being a crash testdummy, um and um and trying to
(33:28):
prevent those kinds of thingsfrom happening to other people.
So, um, a lot of times, like mycareer and other things, you
know there's bad days, but ifyou can learn from those bad
days and keep those bad days toa minimum and Jim Lucero and I
figured out a long, long timeago that we're never going to be
(33:48):
able to make these boats towhere they don't crash the best
thing you can do is make thecrashes survivable, give the
driver the best opportunity tosurvive a crash.
And and I and I think you knowthere's still, there's always
room for improvement.
But other than george stratton,we haven't lost a driver and
(34:10):
and really had any drivers veryseriously injured.
Right, you know, with theadvent of the seatbelts and the
enclosed cockpit and thebreathing system and all, the
things that we're doing thesedays.
Generally you know if a boatgets upside down or there's a
collision or a bad crash,usually you know.
(34:31):
The worst is, you know, knowthe driver's got a damaged ego
and wet pants and uh, and thoseare easy to fix yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
It's been fascinating to watch the evolution of the
safety of the sport becausethere's so many little things
that have have combined to tomake it to where it is today and
and thankfully you're stillhere to help with that and it
wasn't the ultimate sacrifice.
I'm so thankful for that.
And we've only lost one driverin the unlimited ranks at least
since 1981, 82 with channel,with and I want to talk more,
(35:02):
more about the safety thingsthat you've contributed in your
career after after racing.
But was, I'm just curious with,when people's careers end, and
I know yours was different thanthan most.
You had 14 months in thehospital and countless surgeries
and all that was.
Was it easy for you at thatpoint to say I'm done and walk
(35:27):
away as a driver at least?
Speaker 2 (35:29):
No, actually it was not.
It was very frustrating and andI'll be honest with you, I was
angry about it.
Um, I I'd worked my whole lifeto get to where we were finally
at a point in my career where Ithought we could win some boat
races, um, and even in seattle.
Uh, that weekend we'd madeenough changes in the boat.
(35:50):
Um, I was fast qualifier on thefirst day that thing ran 140
miles an hour, right off thetrailer, right out of the box,
and it was so easy to drive.
It was so easy.
I felt like I was just outthere cruising around and I came
back and when the guys told mehow fast it was, I was surprised
(36:12):
but I was angry that I feltlike, geez, all that I've been
through and all that I've done,and I'm and I'm not going to get
to do the things that I wantedto do as a driver, I'm not going
to win a bunch of races and I'mnot going to, um, you know, win
a bunch of gold cups andnational championships and and
that sort of thing.
And I I felt like I still had alot to give, a lot to offer and
(36:35):
, especially with thoseexperiences, thought that you
know, I I could, I could do somegood for the sport with the
things that that I've learned,um, and could prevent happening
to other people, other drivers,other teams.
I felt like I owed this sportsomething and so I got involved
again, Um, and Dave Herensbergerum, I love that man very easily
(37:01):
.
After that crash, uh, when hedecided that, you know, he
couldn't do that anymore, Uh,didn't want to take a chance on
hurting another driver orkilling one when he sold all the
equipment.
He could have very easily saidgeez, John man, I'm sorry you
got hurt.
Good luck with whatever youdecide to do.
(37:22):
But he didn't.
He put his arm around me and hesaid as long as I've got
anything to do with thisbusiness, you've got a job here.
Wow, you've got a job here.
And I started going through astore management training
program to be a store manager orsomething in the Pay Pack
company and I was okay at itbecause of my experience with my
(37:48):
dad's businesses and things Iknew all about plumbing and
electrical and heating and airconditioning and all the things
that Pay Pack sold.
I was familiar with all thatstuff and I'd used all those
tools and different things and Iwas a good sales guy for the
store and worked hard at it andI think could have been
(38:09):
successful at that.
But my heart wasn't in it and Ifelt bad going to work every
day that I need to try harder.
I need, I need to to be moreinvolved here.
I need to.
I need to give more.
I need to.
I need to have as much fun goingto work as you know, selling um
toilets as I did, driving arace boat, Um and um.
(38:32):
It wasn't easy and Arlene knewthat and she understood that and
she's a big part of the reasonthat I got better and she's a
big part of the reason, with thelove and the support and that
of the family, that I was ableto get better and prove so many
doctors wrong they literallythought I'd never walk again and
(38:53):
you know, to be able to do someof the things that I can.
It's a true blessing and I'mgrateful and thankful for that
every day.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Well, I know I said this in the interview already,
but we're so fortunate thatJohn's still with us today and
that that crash did not take hislife.
So scary to think back on andjust to reflect on those wrecks
that happened back in the dayand where drivers usually did
leave us in the bad way.
But we're going to continue thetalk.
(39:24):
Next week we're going to havepart three of my interview with
John Walters.
Until then, check us out onsocial media.
We're on Facebook, instagram.
You can check us out on ourwebsite online,
wwwroostertaltalkcom.
On there You're going to see alot of fun stuff, all the
episodes.
But don't forget there is asubscription that you can sign
(39:46):
up for called Roostertail TalkPlus, and it's a subscription to
give back to the viewers withsome fun photos from previous
years, articles from back in theday, but also you get early
access to all new episodes.
I really appreciate all thesubscribers I have so far.
It really helps to pay some ofthe bills that goes into having
(40:08):
a podcast because, as I saidbefore, I am am a teacher.
This comes out of my own timeand time, but anything is
appreciated from you, the fan.
That's all I got for this week,so until next time, I hope to
see you at the races.
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