November 4, 2025 • 54 mins
The conversation widens beyond speed for Episode 168. We start part 4 by comparing the different hulls that Tom raced for Bernie Little and Budweiser Racing. Tom then relives the stock car crash that fractured ended his driving career. Then he walks us through the reinvention: launching APBA’s vintage and historic category and behind-the-scenes story of saving Detroit’s Gold Cup when the experts said it was finished. Subscribe, share with a fellow speed fan, and leave a review with the moment that surprised you most.
*Photo from Scott D'Eath Collection
Help the podcast by subscribing to our new service, Roostertail Talk+. The podcast is still free to all on our website and through all major podcast platforms (such as Apple Podcast, Spotify, Castbox, etc) but with Roostertail Talk+ there is more you can enjoy ! With this service you will get early links to new episodes, enjoy access to extra content, raffle prizes and more. This is a new service that we will be adding to as we move along. As always your support to make this show grow is very appreciated! https://www.buzzsprout.com/434851/supporters/new
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (02:06):
So let's take it off right where we left it off last
time in part four of myinterview and the conclusion
with Tom to E.
Well, I've always been curiousabout the the differences
between the T2 and T3 that youraised.
SPEAKER_01 (02:22):
T2 was definitely uh flight a flight ear boat.
Cockpit was uh real jam, um notcomfortable for me at all
because it was made for Jimmy,who was a little tiny guy.
SPEAKER_04 (02:33):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
And so um the creature comforts and T2 I I
dealt with, but I didn'tparticularly care for.
Uh because they had movedeverything as much as they could
in every direction, but it stillwasn't comfortable.
So, but T2 was a very, veryloose boat, very flighty.
(02:55):
T three uh when I first starteddriving it was very much
waterborne, uh smooth waterboat.
Uh bow steered a lot.
Um we changed a whole bunch ofstuff on that.
We moved the ram wing forward.
We actually got that thingrunning like a rocket ship.
And yeah, it that boat was thebreak in the bottom was further
(03:18):
back.
We started moving weight back.
Um you gotta watch the Pringleshootout in 1990.
That's where three of us were ona flag start.
Watch that race and you'll seehow good that turbine three was.
But we only had two pr twopropellers that worked with that
(03:39):
gear combination because thatwas actually an experimental
thing that Ronnie Ronnie wantedto try with Turbine 2, and when
we put it on Turbine 2, it wasjust absolutely disastrous.
It ill handling wouldn't work atall.
And we got to Kansas City, I gotto thinking and I talked to
(04:01):
Dewey Norton, the engine guy,and because basically we were
turning the prop shaft slower,but the engine higher RPM, but
we were running way more pitch,way more diameter, way more
rake.
And so I said, let's just givethat a try in turbine three and
see what it does.
And I'll tell you what, I leftthe pit area testing.
(04:22):
We had no idea it was going tobe as good as it turned out.
But I left the pit area justcruising down the front
straightaway, probably doingsomewhere between 95 and 105,
you know.
And I poked it into the cornerat cruising speed, and it wanted
to swap ends on me, and itscared to shit out of it.
Whoa, whoa! So I backed off andI said, What the hell is that?
(04:48):
You know.
Now mind you, I'm not evenrunning 110.
I've not even warmed up the theoil in the gearbox yet.
And so I'm going on the backstretch now, trying to think,
why in the hell what is thisthing doing?
Why did it do that?
You know?
So now I'm ready for it.
And I go on to the next corner,and I'm going maybe 110, 115,
(05:11):
still going slow because I'm noteven completed the first lap
yet.
And I turned it into the corner,and sure enough, the back of the
boat kind of gets up and startsto spin around on me.
And I backsteered it to theright as hard as I could, and I
gave it a little throttle, andthe whole thing walked around
the corner pretty damn good, andI unwound it at the X of the
(05:31):
turn.
Now, man, I'm still not goingreally fast yet.
Wow, that was pretty cool.
I could do that.
So I picked up the speed forgoing back in the turn one and
two again, and I wasn't going200, but I was doing probably a
buck 45 to 150.
And sure enough, when I poked itinto the corner, it wanted to
hook again.
So I backsteered it again, onlyI stayed on the gas and gave it
(05:53):
more throttle, it became doable.
So then the next straightaway Ifigured, well, shit, I might as
well go in here as fast as thissunbitch will go.
And so I'm running down thebackstretch there at over 200,
and I poke it into the corner,and sure enough, it starts to
hook again.
And so I start back steering itto the right again, and staying
(06:14):
right flat footed on the gas,and I walk it around the corner,
unwind it at the exit of theturn, and now it's a rocket ship
down the front straight away.
And I'm having a blast.
And this thing is really cool todrive, you know.
So uh uh I did that test, and ofcourse, you know, we set fast
time, and so I I downloaded theinformation that I, you know,
(06:39):
verbally to my you know, Ronnieand and Dewey Norton, and we're
all mystified that this thing iseven doing what it's doing.
But it actually like shiftedgears, and what was happening is
when I poked it into the cornerwith that propeller with the big
diameter and the and a largepitch, it was actually running
up on the tips and picking theback of the boat up out of the
(07:02):
water, and it was trying to swapends.
And when I was steering hard tothe right, I was able to chase
it around the corner, if youknow what I mean.
Mind you, I'm by myself insmooth water.
So, anyway, and then when yougot going down the straightaway
at the exit of the turn, I'vegot the steering wheel straight
again, unwound, and as soon asthe air starts to take over, it
(07:27):
actually starts lifting thefront of the boat and burying
the propeller in the water, andthat's when it sounded like it
was shifting.
It was like and it was justhauling ass down the
straightaway then.
And of course, as soon as I gotto the next corner and started
to poke it in, I'm ready for itto do the same thing, which it
did, and I immediatelybacksteered it but stayed flat
(07:50):
on the floor all the way aroundthe corner, and kind of a timing
thing, unwinding the steeringwheel at the exit of the turn.
And of course, you're sloweddown enough, but the back of the
boat is high and it's it's likeaccelerating really fast.
But when the air starts to pickup the front of the boat and
shove the back in the water,again it's like shifts.
(08:12):
It's like getting the propellerin the meat of the water, and
now you're really going fast,okay?
So you gotta watch the we thosepropellers, we broke, we won
both races, Kansas and the nextone at Tri-Cities.
And we we we didn't we didn'tbreak, we cracked both of those
propellers.
So that combination was done forthe rest of the year.
(08:34):
But we were on to something.
You follow me?
SPEAKER_04 (08:37):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:38):
We were on to something.
And unfortunately, when I got Itested that same boat in the
spring, and and Scotty Piercewas testing turbine two and I
was testing turbine three beforeI got hurt in the stock car
race, and I got on the boat andI told Ronnie, I said, Ronnie,
this thing's gonna run 180 milean hour in San Diego.
You watch.
This is a weapon, this isawesome.
(08:59):
Well, I never uh explained toScotty what I was doing and how
to get around the corner.
When Scotty started driving forBernie, he liked Turban 2
because it was just the normalold, like the Mr.
Pringles ride, only a lotfaster.
unknown (09:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
Turban three was uh I think Larry Lauderback
probably could have driven it,and maybe anybody with some real
high-speed conventionalexperience, because we do that
with conventionals.
We had exactly what trying towalk around on us, but and uh
but I had to get used to it too.
And I probably could have taughtScotty if he'd have called me,
he never did.
He didn't like the boat, so theychanged it, they moved the brake
(09:37):
forward, they put a false bottomin it, and basically they never
ran that combination ever again.
And I really do think that wasthat that would have
revolutionized the sport.
SPEAKER_04 (09:49):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
Moving all that weight back, we're taking
friction frictional loading offof each sponson.
So it became uh i if you couldput scales on the back and each
sponson, when you move weightback, you take weight off the
sponsons, you follow me?
SPEAKER_03 (10:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
And so the ground effects of the of the pushing
between the sponsons and thewater becomes less, so less
drag, less friction.
That's why it was so s so goodaround the corners.
SPEAKER_04 (10:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:20):
If you watch that race at the shootout, you walk I
came from first to second, backto first again, outside a chip.
That's how good it was.
SPEAKER_02 (10:31):
Wow.
I'm gonna go back and watch thatafter.
I I remember I've watched thatbefore, but I'm gonna go back
and watch that again after.
SPEAKER_01 (10:37):
And you'll see in the one corner, the 3-4 corner
of the first lap.
Remember, I'm on winding thesteering wheel and I hit some
bad water, and I had to keepturning to the right to save the
boat.
And a lot of people, especiallythe announcers, are saying,
Well, if you didn't turn right,you know, well, guess what,
buddy?
I didn't tell you what I wasdoing in there, but I was pretty
(10:59):
busy.
But I had to turn right to savethe boat.
You follow me?
SPEAKER_02 (11:04):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
That's another trick that Ray Gastner taught me.
A lot of people, if you and I'lltry to explain this to you right
now on the telephone, aboutblowing over in the corner.
If you poke the boat in thecorner and you're turning right,
the rudder is is slicing throughthe water.
And if you don't do any, let'ssay the right sponsor comes up
(11:26):
in the air and it's starting toblow over, if you don't do
something, it's gonna blow over.
Because the rudder is just gonnacut right through the water and
not create any drag.
And the wrong thing to do is toturn to the right, but that's
the right thing to do to bringthe sponson back down.
If you turn to the right, youcreate drag at the back of the
(11:50):
boat, and when you create dragat the back of the boat, it's
like somebody pulling on therudder, lifting the transom, and
that right sponsor comes backdown again.
And I've done that a lot to savemy ass, trust me.
And I see a lot of these guysblown over in the corner, and
they don't know the little trickthat I used to do.
SPEAKER_02 (12:10):
Yeah, it's that's a pretty common area for people to
flip an unlimited so the rightsponsor comes up and they don't
correct and it just keepscarrying and then it goes over.
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
So yeah, they think that if you back off, it'll
help.
No, it doesn't.
You got to turn opposite lock tocreate drag at the transom so
that you're actually uh pullingat the transom, which makes the
front of the boat go back downagain.
I save my ass a lot.
There's in fact I've got stillshots of me in Tri-Cities, which
(12:40):
is a race I did win when I gotcaught in a rooster tail like
Vilwok just did at Gunnersville.
And uh I was turning to you caneven see the rudder to the
right, and I saved it.
I got it back down on a blew abunch of holes in the side of
the boat.
We fixed this with beer cartons,but I did go out in the final
eat and win it.
(13:01):
But I saved my point is I savedit from crashing.
SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
Right, right.
Yeah, I think that was in theblue the blue bridge train.
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Yeah, did I get up and go through a bunch of
rooster tails?
Hell yes, I did.
SPEAKER_03 (13:11):
You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
I'm I went Ray Gastner told me you have to
switch off race and go intosurvival, and then once you get
through survival, you can goback to race again, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (13:22):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:22):
And so I was switching off racing and going
to survival when I was goingthrough those antics at
Tri-Cities.
And then, of course, once Igathered it back up, then I
could go back to race again, ifyou know what I mean.
SPEAKER_02 (13:37):
Wow.
Well, talking about talkingabout the T2, I believe that was
the boat that had the nicknameThumper.
Is that correct?
SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
Yes, it had the nickname Thumper, and Tim
Ramsey's daughter gave it gavethat name to the boat.
SPEAKER_03 (13:52):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
You gotta remember that it I blew it over in at the
Gold Cup, okay?
SPEAKER_03 (13:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
And I said to my wife and my family, I ain't
never doing this again.
This is ridiculous, you know.
So I figured, well, I'll keep mycrew busy putting recovery areas
back in the sponsors, but thissummit's just never gonna go
over backwards again.
So and I proved to Ronnie thatrunning it tight, uh uh you go
(14:18):
just as fast.
You got 3,300 horsepower there,okay?
So I ran at Syracuse, New York.
I ran we had air brakes on thespar, which were pneumatically
operated.
And uh and you hit the littleclicker switch with my left
foot, and it popped up thesepanels on the spar that were air
(14:39):
brakes.
In other words, they were basicdeflectors that uh uh you know
put the wind and made the frontof the boat tight to the water.
So uh anyway, I told Ronnie whenI left the dock, I says all by
myself, water's beautiful.
I'm gonna run the first lap withthe air brakes off.
There was no wind in anydirection.
(15:00):
And so I did like I think it was158 or 153 or whatever it was.
It was, you know, and as soon asI got to the start-finish line
for the second lap, I popped theair brakes and I left them open
for the whole damn lap.
And it was identical.
Same idea, you couldn't tell thedifference in speed.
(15:21):
It was exactly the same.
So I had two identical laps, onewith no air brakes and one with
air brake diploid.
And and I won the race becauseof those air brakes.
Uh I had Circus Circus on theinside of me with Prevost, I
think, and chip on the outsideof me, and we exited uh the
final heat on you know uh turnone and two, and down the back
(15:45):
stretch we're now looking at a15 knot uh headwind, you know.
As soon as I got to the exit ofturn two, I activated the air
brakes, and a third of the waydown the straightaway I had each
one of them I could see in myperipheral vision, one on one
side, one on the other.
(16:05):
And then all of a sudden Ididn't see them anymore, and I
looked on my mirror so Icouldn't see them anymore.
And when I got to the corner,three, four corner, I'm exiting
that turn and I see they're noteven there yet.
Well, I had to get out of itbecause they were they were
flighty and I wasn't.
I just I was pinned to thewater.
But anyway, long story short, Ifrom that point on always kept
(16:28):
uh the boat as snug as Ipossibly could.
I never wanted to get it blownover again.
And uh we did more stuff to uhoperate the canards uh and and
the air brakes and stuff.
We evolved that even better asas time went on, especially in
(16:49):
1990, you know, when when I wasable to we we put a toe strap on
the left pedal.
There's a whole lot of you knowuh technical stuff that we did
there that helped.
Uh we went from a uh you know adimmer switch, uh, which worked
the best as what we ended upwith.
We had a starter button, likewhen I hit that, uh it would
(17:12):
start to deploy the air brakes,but uh you couldn't keep my foot
on the starter button to keepthe brakes where I wanted it.
So we put in a switch off of anold Cadillac for making the
lights brighter and dimmer.
It's like click-click, they'reon, and click, click, it's off,
you know.
So when I click-click it, theywent fully deployed, and my foot
could be jumping around the leftfoot, and they'd still stay up,
(17:35):
if you know what I mean.
And then if I wanted them down,I click-click again.
You follow me?
And then they were tracked, theywere pneumatically operated.
So and then I also had a toestrap put on the alieron uh so
that I could pull for lift andpush and eliminate the trim
switches on the steering wheelcompletely.
SPEAKER_04 (17:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
So there's a lot of things that we did that made it
even more drivable friendly forme.
SPEAKER_02 (17:59):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, you did you didwhat you needed too, because
like you said, that was 88, itwas the only time he flipped um
weather.
SPEAKER_01 (18:07):
So I boat, and it was actually uh an axle on the
spot the hard wing that bent.
SPEAKER_03 (18:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (18:15):
Right.
They the crew sent those thingsout after Cropfield drove the
year before and had themsolution and healed and reheat
treated and checked formagniflux and x-ray and all that
kind of stuff.
And uh when they came back, theynever checked the hardness, and
they found out when theysolution and healed them, they
forgot to heat treat them.
So they were dead soft comparedto a heat-treated shaft that the
(18:38):
canards were mounted to.
That's why it bent.
It was twisted like a pretzel.
SPEAKER_02 (18:44):
Yeah.
Well, that's that's out of yourcontrol, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (18:47):
Oh, yeah.
Doug Ford did the calculationsand he said at 150 miles an hour
it'd be like a 250-pound manjumping on the back of the
canard and bending, you know,the shaft, which is what
happened, you know.
SPEAKER_04 (19:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:03):
So anyway.
Well, yeah.
Uh well, around that time, likeyou mentioned earlier, '91, uh,
you you had a a wreck in a car,car racing accident.
Um, and you spent some timeracing cars.
Uh and unfortunately, I think itstopped with that that wreck.
And what can you tell us aboutyour car racing days?
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
Well, in 77, I, you know, I I've always had the
inkling to want to race midgets,you know.
And uh United States Auto Clubcame out with a series called
Mini Indy or Super V.
And they were smaller cars.
It was a Saturday race beforethe Indy Car race.
I did have a lot of friends thatraced indie cars and and still
(20:51):
do today that were former, youknow, champions.
Johnny Rutherford, Foyt, youknow, uh Mike Devin, one of the
best crew chiefs in Indy around.
And so I was going to thoseraces helping Roger McCluskey,
you know, uh Johnny Parsons Jr.
uh as a crew member, and theyall kind of talked me into
(21:13):
getting into the mini indieseries, uh which was new for
USAC at that time.
So uh I got one and uh proceededto wreck it.
And so then I got another oneand uh was having fun with it
and learning more.
The very first race I I took myfirst uh rear engine car to the
(21:35):
it was a Lola.
Uh I looked like a fighter piloton the end of a string until the
string broke, you know.
And I that was at Milwaukee andI crashed it and be destroyed
the car.
So I found another vehicle,another Lola, and uh got it
ready and finished the seasonwith that car at a much more
(21:55):
conservative uh approach.
And uh so then I did order ananother one brand new.
And uh uh and I raced uh thatseries.
Uh and again, I was a novice.
I should have started racinggo-karts and stuff like that
when I was 12, 13, 14, like Idid boats, you know, but I
(22:17):
didn't.
And so uh but it was fun becauseI was learning new stuff, you
know.
I was learning new things.
That really did help me later onwhen I was driving the
Budweiser, you know, running acleaner line into the corners,
out of the corners, stuff likethat.
So and uh but anyway, so andthen I ran uh uh I got a midget
(22:38):
too, a USAC midget.
And I did better on dirt than Idid on pavement.
But obviously when you're goingto uh the mini indie races or
the or this or the midget races,you know, you're looking at
forty some people time in, youknow.
And they're all trying to do thesame thing as win the race.
And of course uh I didn't evenstart racing cars till I was in
(23:01):
my thirties.
So I was way behind the curve ofthese younger guys.
SPEAKER_03 (23:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
So but I was having fun.
And uh I did get an opportunityuh late to drive uh a stock car.
And I drove Rockingham, uh,Richmond, Charlotte, and
unfortunately I got in amulti-car wreck at Charlotte,
uh, my second race there, and uhended up uh breaking C2, same
(23:28):
thing that Cropfield broke.
So I was in a halo for threemonths and a hard collar for
three months and a soft collarand it pretty much ended my
racing career because I do Idon't have any ligament
attachment anymore.
So uh if I were to get involvedin a similar type of accident,
(23:48):
even on the street, uh yourligaments help keep your head on
your shoulders, you know, andkeep your spinal cord from
breaking.
Fortunately for me, my break wasa tension break.
Had it been a compressionfracture where it would implode
internally.
Um in other words, my head triedto snap off my spine, so it was
(24:12):
like you know, pulled away.
Where Stephen Reeves, Superman,when he dove, uh whatever he
did, he imploded his C2 and hebecame a quadruple.
I was lucky.
Mine was separated by uh ahundred thousand, so I still
have the x-rays.
So when I broke C2, um basalskull fracture, I could have
(24:35):
died, but I didn't.
SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:37):
So very God spared me.
SPEAKER_02 (24:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Very unfortunate to go throughthat process, but fortunately
it's not worse, right?
And you're still alive, stillhere today to tell your tales.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
God had different plans for me.
I started the vintage in a storycategory after that, and then
and that led to saving the GoldCup races in Detroit.
Uh they went bankrupt in 03, andand basically all the uh you
know, newspapers and magazines,Crane's Magazine, which is a uh
(25:09):
a magazine that all the businessleaders read every morning, you
know.
That said, it'll take a miracle.
The boat races aren't gonnahappen this year, and so stick a
fork in it, it's done.
Uh there will be no hydroplaneraces this year.
And that was uh I guess we did amiracle because in six weeks
later I I formed a new group andmy late wife and I spearheaded
(25:33):
the whole thing and we saved thethat's like saving the Indy 500,
if you know what I mean.
That's more proud of that thananything I ever did behind the
steering wheel because first ofall, the opportunity to save uh
uh uh a sport you loved and andsave a tradition that was going
on in Detroit for a hundredyears and uh to bring it back.
(25:57):
And so I did it oh three, four,and five and pulled it out of
the red and put it in the blackbig time.
SPEAKER_04 (26:03):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
So that that you know God had plans for me other
than driving racing vehicles.
SPEAKER_04 (26:09):
So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:11):
Well the relic vintage historic category is is
probably one of the most popularcategories in APBA today.
SPEAKER_02 (26:19):
And I is yeah, I ran it for about 14 years.
Yeah, it's amazing to seeinboard racing and unlimited
class, all these differentclasses, all these vintage boats
coming out now.
And um it's it's really uh funto have at the races and um it
brings back a lot of memoriesand brings another aspect to the
(26:40):
sport that that's needed.
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Yeah.
No, and I've I'm proud of thefact that uh 1993, I you know, I
got the the uh APBA commissionto approve me to start the
category, which I did.
Wrote the rules on everything.
SPEAKER_02 (26:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:57):
Not the ones they have today, but the original
ones, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (27:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you for getting thatgoing and and preserving a lot
of boats.
I'm sure that inspired a lot ofpeople to preserve boats that
probably wouldn't be here today.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
Well, I took a lot of worthless boats that were
worth nothing and made themvaluable for sure.
In fact, I own a couple of them.
SPEAKER_02 (27:20):
Well, well, some something around that time, I
think it was early 2000s, yougot to be a part of the
organization that was runningthe sport at the time.
I can't remember if it wasHydropop or UHRA.
It went through several names atthe time.
Yeah, and I remember being veryexcited at that time because I
think you were named chairman orhad a leadership position.
(27:42):
And I knew it was your possessyour passion and knowledge that
you were going to propel thesport forward um a pun there, I
guess.
But what can you tell us aboutthat?
About that time.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
Well, you're right.
Here's how it happened.
I remember I started vintage andhistoric.
Yeah.
And uh uh initially I was doinguh what I called tag along.
In other words, I was taggingalong, vintage and historic was
tagging along an inboard race oran unlimited race, uh the
sanction-wise, insurance-wise.
(28:15):
Eventually, uh I wanted to getto standalone events.
What I mean by that is uhstrictly a vintage event, uh not
tagging along an inboardhydroplane race or an unlimited
hydroplane race.
And so I started doing that, andI did Lake George and Lake
Winnipesaukee, so I hadexperience now of putting on
(28:38):
standalone events without a boatrace being there, okay?
And these were fresh, brand newlocations at downtown Lake
George, New York, and also LakeWinnipes, and other other sites
I did too.
Well, when I saved the Gold Cuprace in 2003 and pulled him out
(28:59):
of bankruptcy and did the 04event, which is the hundredth
anniversary of the Gold Cup,Gary Garbrick and Bernie were
partners, you know, in in theHydroprop, I guess is what it
was called back then.
SPEAKER_02 (29:13):
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
Bernie Bernie had enough of Gary Garbrick, so he
wanted out, you know, Gary wascreating a lot of uh turbulence
in his own sport of theunlimited with the piston boats
and the turban boats, you know,with restrictions on it wanted
to do on everything.
Right.
And so there was a lot ofturmoil, there was talk of uh
(29:34):
outlaw breaking away, whicheventually the sport did, but in
2004, again, I put on the theDetroit race very successfully,
very financially successful.
And that's when Charlie Strangand I think uh let's see,
Charlie Strang, uh Edgar Rose,these are the old power of APBA.
(30:00):
Stan Fitz, they saw the theproblems that were going on with
the unlimited category and GaryGarbrick.
And so basically they had aDutch uncle talk with Gary
Garbrick and said, You need totake a back seat and you need to
put Tom Deet in charge of thesport because there were already
(30:23):
races that year that werebreaking away from APBA.
Um I think Pasco broke away,Seattle did not, St.
Clair, Michigan did not, and SanDiego broke away.
So they put me uh asked if Iwould be interested in running
the sport.
(30:43):
Um and Gary was gonna take aback seat and I would get uh
paid from Hydro Prop for myservices and so I decided, yeah,
what the hell I can do that, youknow.
So I did run uh
unknown (31:02):
St.
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
Clair, Michigan, and I did run Seattle.
But it was there was enoughundercurrent with the owners
that even though I was verysuccessful at paying them lots
of money for the Gold Cup racefor the last two years, they had
other ideas of where they wantedto go.
(31:24):
In the meantime, I wasnegotiating with Gary Garbrick
to buy all the assets of Hydrop,which was the rescue boats, uh
the clocks, the semi-trucks andtrailers, the timing equipment,
the buoys, everything you'd needto put on a race, you know.
He was still alive, and uh hewas reluctant to sell it to me
(31:47):
for$220,000, which was my offerfrom Detroit River Regatta
Association.
SPEAKER_04 (31:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:54):
Anyway, he dropped dead on the golf course.
I don't know if he died on thehe had a heart attack dead on
the golf course.
So Trent Ling, his attorney, uhnow was responsible for the
Garbrick family's assets, whichincluded Hydrop.
(32:15):
Uh he had visions of taking overthe sport and running.
We all kind of went to San Diegoto talk to the owners to stop
the nonsense of outlaw racing.
Anyway, they didn't like TrentLing, and they didn't really
like me because they barred mefrom the pit area in San Diego.
(32:36):
So I had to watch from the umpleasure area.
SPEAKER_03 (32:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:40):
And uh and so bottom line, when I went home, I had
and they didn't like Trent Lingfor sure.
Uh they seemed to be gravitatingtowards Sam Cole, and I knew
what a crook he was, so I didn'twant no part of him.
So I just kind of stood in thewayside and started to do my own
thing.
(33:00):
And uh I ended up negotiatingwith Trent Ling and bought all
the assets of Hydrop um for$180,000 instead of$220,000.
I say I, I didn't.
Detroit River Regatta, which wasthe nonprofit organization that
I formed to save the races, theyended up uh paying that bill.
(33:22):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (33:22):
Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (33:23):
So anyway, um the $220,000.
I got a bargain because I got itfor$180,000.
And uh uh everything, the semis,the trailers, the clocks, the
computer stuff, the fuel flowstuff for the turbines, um
rescue boats and trailers.
There were two of them, uh, allthat stuff, all the archival
(33:45):
stuff.
Uh Judy and I loaded up all thethe movie footage and the TV
footage from uh uh after the warall the way to present.
That was all our stuff.
And uh Judy and I moved it allto the and a display boat.
I bought a display boat for theTide Display Boat that Gary
owned, and I paid$225,000 forthat, and I brought it to
(34:10):
Detroit and gave it to DetroitRiver Regatta Association.
That's one of the last things Idid.
It was uh you know a mock-upboat, but and it's all painted
red now, and I think it saysMiss DYC on it.
But Judy, I actually bought itand gave it to uh Detroit River
Regatta.
SPEAKER_04 (34:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:28):
So and of course, that's when we exited the sport
too, and the Gold Cup race I'mtalking about in Detroit.
Uh I ran it in 03, 4, and 5.
SPEAKER_04 (34:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:38):
And uh I left them with a ton of money and Judy's
recipe book on how we dideverything and who we dealt
with.
SPEAKER_02 (34:45):
Yeah.
And uh and it's no, yeah, it'sso sad that they're not racing
in Detroit anymore.
I've I've never gottenexperienced being to a Detroit
race, and I know there's so manyfans out there that are wanting
that back.
And hope hopefully we'll getback, but I'm not holding my
(35:05):
breath for it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:06):
Yeah, I don't think you should hold your breath.
The people that have it now,there's only three people that
are in charge of it, and that'suh Doug Bernstein, the lawyer,
good friend of mine, uh a bigfan, but not much for business.
Uh and Bruce Motti's a PR guyfrom the University of Michigan,
but he only wanted to ever getpaid.
(35:27):
He didn't want to do anythingfor free.
SPEAKER_04 (35:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:30):
Mark Weber, who likes to tell everybody how good
he is, but basically, and I lovethe family, don't get me wrong,
the Weber, I love Mike, Mark,and his whole family.
But basically, for the last sixyears, they've done nothing.
So I did the event in six weeksand pulled them out of the red
and put them in the black.
And this is no bullshit.
I left them with$900,000 in thebank, all the assets of Hydro
(35:53):
Prop,$330,000 in accountsreceivable and all bills paid.
SPEAKER_04 (35:58):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (35:59):
When I turned it over to the board.
The last person I put on theboard was Jim Scheibel, the
president of Chrysler JeepSuperstores.
SPEAKER_02 (36:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:07):
And that was in the end of 05 season.
SPEAKER_02 (36:11):
Wow.
Wow, 20 years ago.
SPEAKER_00 (36:14):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:15):
Yeah.
Geez.
SPEAKER_00 (36:17):
This race has been going on since 1916.
SPEAKER_02 (36:21):
Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:22):
1916.
Not on my route did it stop.
SPEAKER_02 (36:26):
Right.
Oh man.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:31):
So well, going back to your racing days, you you
raced against many talentedindividuals, um, both with and
against, and uh a lot of bignames.
I was hoping I could just say aname and maybe could share a
story uh or your memory ofracing with or against those
people.
SPEAKER_01 (36:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:50):
First on my list, I have Dean Chenowith.
SPEAKER_01 (36:53):
Gentleman's gentleman, just like George
Simon.
Um I never really raced againsthim in limited inboards, but uh
a class act as sportsman on therace course, I know.
SPEAKER_02 (37:05):
Yeah.
How about Jim Cropfield?
SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
Hard charger.
Uh definitely was a stand on thegas guy.
Um uh he would give you almostenough uh to be legal, if you
know what I mean.
In tight situations, yeah.
He would he would leave mealmost not enough room and on
(37:30):
purpose, which is great.
I may be I never did that toanybody, but but he was really
good at uh making you work hardto get around him.
And he was a hard-charging guy.
He had a temper, but uh on therace course he was phenomenal.
He was really a great driver.
How about Chip Hanower?
(37:51):
You want the truth, or you wantme to sugarcoat it?
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
The floor is yours.
I always I always I always askfor the truth.
SPEAKER_01 (38:02):
And there's two drivers that I did not look
forward to to being with on therace course, and uh they were I
probably shouldn't even saythis, but Terry Turner and Chip
were not exactly the cleanestracers that I ever raced
against.
That's a that's a polite way ofputting it.
(38:24):
Okay, okay, okay.
Don't get me wrong, they stoodon the gas, both of them, but uh
but uh they did stuff on therace course that uh I think
sportsmanship uh should havebeen adhered to and it wasn't.
SPEAKER_02 (38:40):
Wow, okay, okay.
Um Bill Cantrell.
SPEAKER_01 (38:45):
Never raced against Bill.
Uh I admired his career.
Um uh obviously he drove atIndianapolis, which uh anybody
that that races would yearn tojust go around the track, let
alone race there, and he did ittwice.
SPEAKER_04 (39:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
So uh but us kids really looked up to him uh as
well as also Bob Hayward and uhsome of the other legends of the
Detroit uh area.
How about Larry Lauterbach?
Larry Lauterbach and I could rundeck to deck.
Uh I don't care whether it'sGrand Prix or whatever, and we
(39:25):
would never do anything uh wrongto each other.
We would put on someunbelievable races, and uh him
and I I would have no troublerunning 10 feet away from all
the way around the race course,and him to me, one of the one of
the most underrated and bestdrivers I've ever raced against.
SPEAKER_02 (39:46):
Yeah, that's fun when you have that level of
trust with someone, right?
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (39:51):
Bernie Little.
SPEAKER_01 (39:54):
He was a take no prisoner's owner, uh, owner.
Um I mean, if you weren't usefulto him, you were the enemy.
And uh and if you were a tooland he had no use for you, you
were lucky if you made it backin the toolbox.
Was he good to me when I drovefor him?
Yes, he was.
He was is is is he was reallygood to me and my family.
(40:18):
Uh, when I was against him anddriving against him, I was his
arch rival, and he didn't likeme worth two squirts of coon
shed.
But we helped each other when heneeded help, and I certainly
needed the golden ride to finishmy career off.
So I will always love the manfor that.
(40:39):
He gave me the equipment finallyum to win races with, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (40:44):
He did.
SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
Yeah.
How about Mark Tate?
I never really uh, yes, we diduh race and unlimited, but he
wasn't in the similar equipment,if you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_02 (40:57):
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
Um uh I did help Mark a lot in his early career.
Um, you know, he drove the zerofor um uh which he set the world
record with in St.
Pete, and uh his father wasinstrumental in him making it to
the Unlimiteds.
But uh I think that uh betweendriving the stock seven liter,
(41:20):
which I have nothing to do with,that was Jimmy Deal's boat, but
um he uh we went to St.
Pete with the Miss Zero, and TomFunka and his wife Maria owned
the boat, and we had two motorsfor the boat.
I was kind of like the crewchief on it, and uh we tested
with the Ford, which was a newmotor coming out, and we tested
(41:41):
with the Chevrolet, and then weput the Ford back in it, and
then he was testing it.
Uh, this was before the race,and blew it over backwards and
landed upside down and smashedit.
He was thrown clear andparachute worked, and so he was
sore and bruised, but he wasokay.
And uh the boat got back to thedock, and we got it back on the
(42:02):
trailer, and it was a mess.
The deck had fracturedeverywhere, and the calling was
screwed up, and everybody said,Well, this thing is done for the
weekend.
And uh what they forgot is I hadfriends in St.
Pete.
Okay, I had a marina there.
So uh the one guy that had awood shop, I got a hold of him
right away, and I told Tom Funkand Maria, you guys go to dinner
(42:23):
and have fun.
Um, don't worry about your boat,I'll have it ready in the
morning.
And they all looked at me like,yeah, all right, okay.
We've heard ducks fartunderwater before.
And guess what?
I had it all patched up, didn'tlook pretty, but guess what?
Mark Tate went out and ran 97mile an hour set of world
competition record with it.
SPEAKER_02 (42:44):
That's a fun story.
SPEAKER_01 (42:45):
Yep.
So it looked ugly, but it wentfast.
SPEAKER_02 (42:49):
That's all that matters.
All right, how about ScottPierce?
SPEAKER_01 (42:55):
Scotty's such a good friend.
Uh, you know, um he actually, Ithink, cheated himself by
sidestepping experience in theearlier years of his racing and
got right into unlimitedprobably quicker than he should
have.
He wasn't ready for it.
(43:15):
But he he did teach himself andlearn how to become an unlimited
racer, yes.
Uh, did he have the Cropfieldkiller instinct or the Chipanour
killer instinct?
I'm gonna say probably not.
Uh I don't know if he knew howto get the most out of his boat,
uh, but uh really a super niceguy, a great friend.
(43:39):
I'm so glad I took the MissWashington, D.C.
uh out to Seattle or you know,Mahogany and Merlot.
No one knew at that time that wewere gonna lose Scotty.
SPEAKER_02 (43:52):
No, it was a shock, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:53):
Yeah, and he never drove a lot back, but I knew he
had conventional experience, andand he was so good to me when I
came to Seattle uh in 2017, letme hang around his crew, and and
I had a dog, which you know theydon't allow in the pit area, and
we kind of snuck him in.
So I just I felt I owed Scotty,plus we were great friends, and
(44:18):
I could tell you couldn't getthe smile off his face after he
drove the Miss Washington, DC.
And it was a warm feeling for mebecause I knew that I was no
longer um when I tested the DC,I knew it was the boat was ahead
of me, I wasn't ahead of it.
There's there comes a time inyour racing life when when you
(44:39):
know that it's time for younever to get back in a boat
again, and that that was uh thatwas apparent to me l earlier in
2019 when I tested it, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (44:50):
Yeah, uh well, yeah, I remember I was actually there
at the Mahogner Low.
That was a beautiful boat.
Um yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:58):
It's still beautiful, sitting in my garage.
SPEAKER_02 (45:00):
Yeah.
Good.
SPEAKER_01 (45:03):
Scotty.
SPEAKER_02 (45:04):
Oh, really?
Oh man.
Are you gonna bring it back outanytime?
SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
I will.
Um, I'm not sure where uh orwhen, but I will.
I take it out of the garage andI fire it up, and you know, I
obviously you'd have tosummarize it and winterize it.
Uh but I I like the smell ofalcohol and I like to hear the
sound of it, and it's ready togo.
But uh uh I I'd have to find aqualified driver to put in it.
SPEAKER_03 (45:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (45:31):
And uh believe it or not, it's hard to find someone
that's got conventionalexperience that would really
know what to do with it.
Uh cab over drivers that havenever driven a conventional, I'm
reluctant to even let them getin this boat, to be honest with
you.
SPEAKER_02 (45:46):
Oh, I'm sure.
I'm sure, yeah.
It's different, different game.
SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
Different for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (45:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:53):
Uh Ron Brown.
Best crew chief, unbelievable.
I mean, the guy's a genius, andhe'll outwork anybody.
Uh he's he was my crew chief forfive of my six gold cups, and I
called six because three wereCanadian.
So two with Ronnie, and allthree of my Gold Cup wins were
(46:13):
with Ronnie, APBA Gold Cups.
SPEAKER_03 (46:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
The only Gold Cup that I uh Prince Edward Gold Cup
that I won without Ronnie was uhDon Ryan and Sonny and the deep
Don Ryan's waterback special.
SPEAKER_04 (46:28):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (46:29):
So designed the the Budweiser, Turban II and three.
We were onto something.
It's a shame that that wholething didn't happen.
I got hurt and and yeah.
But basically, we're, I think,on the verge of revolutionizing
the sport.
Between you and I and the gatepost, I don't think the sport's
gotten any faster or bettersince uh you know since 1990.
SPEAKER_02 (46:54):
I think basically the speeds are roughly around
the same, the same, I think.
Yeah.
They're just kind of gettingdifferent tactics to get there
now with the restrictions, butyeah, it hasn't really advanced
uh faster since then.
SPEAKER_01 (47:10):
Hardly at all.
Hardly at all.
Yeah.
And so uh, I mean, look at lookat how Ronnie he designed Turban
2, you know, and they built itin the butt shop.
That was not they yes, they usedJones canoes and stuff like
that, but basically that was allRon Brown on the drawboard that
(47:31):
did all that.
And uh Lauren and Tim andReinberger and uh Kurt Tavanier
and the guys in the shop thatwere the geniuses, you know,
putting all that stuff together.
Right.
Uh and he designed builtpropellers.
Of course, I built propellersfor the Miss US racing team, so
Ronnie took it to a whole newlevel, you know.
(47:53):
Uh the props that I designed andbuilt for the Miss US way back
in the 70s were archaic anddinosaur looking compared to
what he did with the Budweiserteam, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (48:07):
He made some beautiful equipment.
SPEAKER_01 (48:12):
I found Dewey, that's a whole cool story there.
But basically, Dewey uh came tothe sport when the sport needed
Dewey Norton.
And uh he made everybody bbetter in the turbine engine
department.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (48:26):
George Simon.
SPEAKER_01 (48:30):
Oh, the best of the best.
Uh Ray Gasner and George Simonare the gentleman's gentleman of
the sport, for sure.
Uh put yourself in GeorgeSimon's shoes back in 1973 to
take a 20-some-year-old kid andput him in charge of his
(48:51):
unlimited racing team and allowthat young man to order a boat
from Ron Jones Marine that noone had any faith in, but
convinced George that that's thefuture and the way to go in the
sport.
And where I'm gonna end thisconversation right now about the
(49:13):
Miss US, I think there are twopeople in the sport that have
really dictated where the sportwent.
1950, Ted Jones came east withthe slow motion four, they
already set the straightawayrecord and won the Gold Cup in
(49:34):
Detroit in 1950.
That was the first prop riding,rooster tail throwing, unlimited
hydroplane uh period.
And that sent the tone from 1950until 1975, when the pay and
(49:54):
pack, all the boats that won agold cup, you sat behind the
engine, and they were propriding rooster tail throwing
hydroplanes, okay?
Right 1976, think about this.
The very first time ever that acab over won a gold cup.
Pickle fork cab over.
SPEAKER_02 (50:14):
That's true.
SPEAKER_01 (50:14):
In 2025, there has been nothing but pickle fork cab
overs win the gold cup.
SPEAKER_02 (50:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (50:24):
There's never been a sit behind the engine boat, win
the gold cup since 1976.
And that's the son of Ted Jonesthat brought that revolution to
the sport that isn't getting thecredit that he's due.
That's my opinion.
SPEAKER_04 (50:43):
Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (50:44):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (50:47):
That's incredible to think about, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (50:49):
Yeah, it is.
It is incredible.
I didn't Yeah, I didn't eventhink about that.
SPEAKER_01 (51:02):
Since uh 76.
That's all it's won.
Till 2025.
Still continuing on.
Where Ted Jones changed thesport from 1950 to 1975, and his
son, Ron Jones, changed thesport from 1976 until today.
SPEAKER_02 (51:19):
Yeah.
Amazing.
All right, last name I have foryou.
Yep.
Jim Harvey.
SPEAKER_01 (51:29):
Unbelievable, super nice guy, and what a fun guy to
drive for.
He had all the faith in theworld in me, and he's he his
team was like a well-oiledmachine.
But the difference betweenZubich and Harvey is Zuvich had
oil all over the deck and thebills, and Harvey had hardly
(51:50):
none.
But we they put every time weran the boat, we took the engine
out, put it on the ground,pulled the blower off, went
through, checked the quillshafts and the gears and stuff,
and inspected everything, put itall back together again.
And I know I didn't run the fullseason in 85 and 86, but every
race we ran, we never brokeanything.
(52:12):
We never had a problem.
And you could wipe up the billswith two paper towels, period.
SPEAKER_02 (52:18):
That's that's a wild stat to me.
That's just wild.
SPEAKER_01 (52:20):
Oh, yeah, and what a fun boat to drive.
I'm so glad I got theopportunity to drive a boat with
nitrous oxide and andsuperchargers instead of
turbochargers, and a boat thathandled as nicely as the 82
Atlas Van Lines, which becamethe squire I drove in 85 and 86.
SPEAKER_02 (52:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:42):
Yeah.
I love Jim Harvey.
SPEAKER_02 (52:45):
Yeah.
Well, he he did a lot for thesport, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (52:48):
Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (52:50):
Well, well, Tom, it's been so much fun talking
with you.
I'm sorry I took so much of yourtime today.
Uh it was so fun talking aboutyour career and just hearing
those stories from you.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (53:00):
So no, it's uh I'm glad I was a small part of the
sport.
Like I said, uh I'm more proudof saving the Gold Cup race in
Detroit.
Unfortunately, it's not going onnow, but not on my watch.
Uh that was quite a challenge,and a whole story in itself is
how that happened.
And and uh, you know, not manypeople get the opportunity to be
(53:24):
able to be the little kid fromAshland Avenue that grew up on
the Fox Creek Canal to save asport that was traditionally
going on for over a hundredyears in the city of Detroit.
And I do have a propproclamation from Wayne County
and and uh mayor Kavanaugh uhthanking me for doing that.
(53:47):
So that's very special.
SPEAKER_02 (53:49):
Yeah, that's big.
That's big.
Well not the last that's the endof another interview for the
interesting thing.
If you like the interview andyou like the content we're
providing, social media, likeand following the five, and
(54:10):
following the five, and thenwe're gonna do that.
So let's take it off right where we left it off last
time in part four of myinterview and the conclusion
with Tom to E.
Well, I've always been curiousabout the the differences
between the T2 and T3 that youraised.
SPEAKER_01 (02:22):
T2 was definitely uh flight a flight ear boat.
Cockpit was uh real jam, um notcomfortable for me at all
because it was made for Jimmy,who was a little tiny guy.
SPEAKER_04 (02:33):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
And so um the creature comforts and T2 I I
dealt with, but I didn'tparticularly care for.
Uh because they had movedeverything as much as they could
in every direction, but it stillwasn't comfortable.
So, but T2 was a very, veryloose boat, very flighty.
(02:55):
T three uh when I first starteddriving it was very much
waterborne, uh smooth waterboat.
Uh bow steered a lot.
Um we changed a whole bunch ofstuff on that.
We moved the ram wing forward.
We actually got that thingrunning like a rocket ship.
And yeah, it that boat was thebreak in the bottom was further
(03:18):
back.
We started moving weight back.
Um you gotta watch the Pringleshootout in 1990.
That's where three of us were ona flag start.
Watch that race and you'll seehow good that turbine three was.
But we only had two pr twopropellers that worked with that
(03:39):
gear combination because thatwas actually an experimental
thing that Ronnie Ronnie wantedto try with Turbine 2, and when
we put it on Turbine 2, it wasjust absolutely disastrous.
It ill handling wouldn't work atall.
And we got to Kansas City, I gotto thinking and I talked to
(04:01):
Dewey Norton, the engine guy,and because basically we were
turning the prop shaft slower,but the engine higher RPM, but
we were running way more pitch,way more diameter, way more
rake.
And so I said, let's just givethat a try in turbine three and
see what it does.
And I'll tell you what, I leftthe pit area testing.
(04:22):
We had no idea it was going tobe as good as it turned out.
But I left the pit area justcruising down the front
straightaway, probably doingsomewhere between 95 and 105,
you know.
And I poked it into the cornerat cruising speed, and it wanted
to swap ends on me, and itscared to shit out of it.
Whoa, whoa! So I backed off andI said, What the hell is that?
(04:48):
You know.
Now mind you, I'm not evenrunning 110.
I've not even warmed up the theoil in the gearbox yet.
And so I'm going on the backstretch now, trying to think,
why in the hell what is thisthing doing?
Why did it do that?
You know?
So now I'm ready for it.
And I go on to the next corner,and I'm going maybe 110, 115,
(05:11):
still going slow because I'm noteven completed the first lap
yet.
And I turned it into the corner,and sure enough, the back of the
boat kind of gets up and startsto spin around on me.
And I backsteered it to theright as hard as I could, and I
gave it a little throttle, andthe whole thing walked around
the corner pretty damn good, andI unwound it at the X of the
(05:31):
turn.
Now, man, I'm still not goingreally fast yet.
Wow, that was pretty cool.
I could do that.
So I picked up the speed forgoing back in the turn one and
two again, and I wasn't going200, but I was doing probably a
buck 45 to 150.
And sure enough, when I poked itinto the corner, it wanted to
hook again.
So I backsteered it again, onlyI stayed on the gas and gave it
(05:53):
more throttle, it became doable.
So then the next straightaway Ifigured, well, shit, I might as
well go in here as fast as thissunbitch will go.
And so I'm running down thebackstretch there at over 200,
and I poke it into the corner,and sure enough, it starts to
hook again.
And so I start back steering itto the right again, and staying
(06:14):
right flat footed on the gas,and I walk it around the corner,
unwind it at the exit of theturn, and now it's a rocket ship
down the front straight away.
And I'm having a blast.
And this thing is really cool todrive, you know.
So uh uh I did that test, and ofcourse, you know, we set fast
time, and so I I downloaded theinformation that I, you know,
(06:39):
verbally to my you know, Ronnieand and Dewey Norton, and we're
all mystified that this thing iseven doing what it's doing.
But it actually like shiftedgears, and what was happening is
when I poked it into the cornerwith that propeller with the big
diameter and the and a largepitch, it was actually running
up on the tips and picking theback of the boat up out of the
(07:02):
water, and it was trying to swapends.
And when I was steering hard tothe right, I was able to chase
it around the corner, if youknow what I mean.
Mind you, I'm by myself insmooth water.
So, anyway, and then when yougot going down the straightaway
at the exit of the turn, I'vegot the steering wheel straight
again, unwound, and as soon asthe air starts to take over, it
(07:27):
actually starts lifting thefront of the boat and burying
the propeller in the water, andthat's when it sounded like it
was shifting.
It was like and it was justhauling ass down the
straightaway then.
And of course, as soon as I gotto the next corner and started
to poke it in, I'm ready for itto do the same thing, which it
did, and I immediatelybacksteered it but stayed flat
(07:50):
on the floor all the way aroundthe corner, and kind of a timing
thing, unwinding the steeringwheel at the exit of the turn.
And of course, you're sloweddown enough, but the back of the
boat is high and it's it's likeaccelerating really fast.
But when the air starts to pickup the front of the boat and
shove the back in the water,again it's like shifts.
(08:12):
It's like getting the propellerin the meat of the water, and
now you're really going fast,okay?
So you gotta watch the we thosepropellers, we broke, we won
both races, Kansas and the nextone at Tri-Cities.
And we we we didn't we didn'tbreak, we cracked both of those
propellers.
So that combination was done forthe rest of the year.
(08:34):
But we were on to something.
You follow me?
SPEAKER_04 (08:37):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:38):
We were on to something.
And unfortunately, when I got Itested that same boat in the
spring, and and Scotty Piercewas testing turbine two and I
was testing turbine three beforeI got hurt in the stock car
race, and I got on the boat andI told Ronnie, I said, Ronnie,
this thing's gonna run 180 milean hour in San Diego.
You watch.
This is a weapon, this isawesome.
(08:59):
Well, I never uh explained toScotty what I was doing and how
to get around the corner.
When Scotty started driving forBernie, he liked Turban 2
because it was just the normalold, like the Mr.
Pringles ride, only a lotfaster.
unknown (09:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
Turban three was uh I think Larry Lauderback
probably could have driven it,and maybe anybody with some real
high-speed conventionalexperience, because we do that
with conventionals.
We had exactly what trying towalk around on us, but and uh
but I had to get used to it too.
And I probably could have taughtScotty if he'd have called me,
he never did.
He didn't like the boat, so theychanged it, they moved the brake
(09:37):
forward, they put a false bottomin it, and basically they never
ran that combination ever again.
And I really do think that wasthat that would have
revolutionized the sport.
SPEAKER_04 (09:49):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
Moving all that weight back, we're taking
friction frictional loading offof each sponson.
So it became uh i if you couldput scales on the back and each
sponson, when you move weightback, you take weight off the
sponsons, you follow me?
SPEAKER_03 (10:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
And so the ground effects of the of the pushing
between the sponsons and thewater becomes less, so less
drag, less friction.
That's why it was so s so goodaround the corners.
SPEAKER_04 (10:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:20):
If you watch that race at the shootout, you walk I
came from first to second, backto first again, outside a chip.
That's how good it was.
SPEAKER_02 (10:31):
Wow.
I'm gonna go back and watch thatafter.
I I remember I've watched thatbefore, but I'm gonna go back
and watch that again after.
SPEAKER_01 (10:37):
And you'll see in the one corner, the 3-4 corner
of the first lap.
Remember, I'm on winding thesteering wheel and I hit some
bad water, and I had to keepturning to the right to save the
boat.
And a lot of people, especiallythe announcers, are saying,
Well, if you didn't turn right,you know, well, guess what,
buddy?
I didn't tell you what I wasdoing in there, but I was pretty
(10:59):
busy.
But I had to turn right to savethe boat.
You follow me?
SPEAKER_02 (11:04):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
That's another trick that Ray Gastner taught me.
A lot of people, if you and I'lltry to explain this to you right
now on the telephone, aboutblowing over in the corner.
If you poke the boat in thecorner and you're turning right,
the rudder is is slicing throughthe water.
And if you don't do any, let'ssay the right sponsor comes up
(11:26):
in the air and it's starting toblow over, if you don't do
something, it's gonna blow over.
Because the rudder is just gonnacut right through the water and
not create any drag.
And the wrong thing to do is toturn to the right, but that's
the right thing to do to bringthe sponson back down.
If you turn to the right, youcreate drag at the back of the
(11:50):
boat, and when you create dragat the back of the boat, it's
like somebody pulling on therudder, lifting the transom, and
that right sponsor comes backdown again.
And I've done that a lot to savemy ass, trust me.
And I see a lot of these guysblown over in the corner, and
they don't know the little trickthat I used to do.
SPEAKER_02 (12:10):
Yeah, it's that's a pretty common area for people to
flip an unlimited so the rightsponsor comes up and they don't
correct and it just keepscarrying and then it goes over.
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
So yeah, they think that if you back off, it'll
help.
No, it doesn't.
You got to turn opposite lock tocreate drag at the transom so
that you're actually uh pullingat the transom, which makes the
front of the boat go back downagain.
I save my ass a lot.
There's in fact I've got stillshots of me in Tri-Cities, which
(12:40):
is a race I did win when I gotcaught in a rooster tail like
Vilwok just did at Gunnersville.
And uh I was turning to you caneven see the rudder to the
right, and I saved it.
I got it back down on a blew abunch of holes in the side of
the boat.
We fixed this with beer cartons,but I did go out in the final
eat and win it.
(13:01):
But I saved my point is I savedit from crashing.
SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
Right, right.
Yeah, I think that was in theblue the blue bridge train.
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Yeah, did I get up and go through a bunch of
rooster tails?
Hell yes, I did.
SPEAKER_03 (13:11):
You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
I'm I went Ray Gastner told me you have to
switch off race and go intosurvival, and then once you get
through survival, you can goback to race again, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (13:22):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:22):
And so I was switching off racing and going
to survival when I was goingthrough those antics at
Tri-Cities.
And then, of course, once Igathered it back up, then I
could go back to race again, ifyou know what I mean.
SPEAKER_02 (13:37):
Wow.
Well, talking about talkingabout the T2, I believe that was
the boat that had the nicknameThumper.
Is that correct?
SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
Yes, it had the nickname Thumper, and Tim
Ramsey's daughter gave it gavethat name to the boat.
SPEAKER_03 (13:52):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
You gotta remember that it I blew it over in at the
Gold Cup, okay?
SPEAKER_03 (13:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
And I said to my wife and my family, I ain't
never doing this again.
This is ridiculous, you know.
So I figured, well, I'll keep mycrew busy putting recovery areas
back in the sponsors, but thissummit's just never gonna go
over backwards again.
So and I proved to Ronnie thatrunning it tight, uh uh you go
(14:18):
just as fast.
You got 3,300 horsepower there,okay?
So I ran at Syracuse, New York.
I ran we had air brakes on thespar, which were pneumatically
operated.
And uh and you hit the littleclicker switch with my left
foot, and it popped up thesepanels on the spar that were air
(14:39):
brakes.
In other words, they were basicdeflectors that uh uh you know
put the wind and made the frontof the boat tight to the water.
So uh anyway, I told Ronnie whenI left the dock, I says all by
myself, water's beautiful.
I'm gonna run the first lap withthe air brakes off.
There was no wind in anydirection.
(15:00):
And so I did like I think it was158 or 153 or whatever it was.
It was, you know, and as soon asI got to the start-finish line
for the second lap, I popped theair brakes and I left them open
for the whole damn lap.
And it was identical.
Same idea, you couldn't tell thedifference in speed.
(15:21):
It was exactly the same.
So I had two identical laps, onewith no air brakes and one with
air brake diploid.
And and I won the race becauseof those air brakes.
Uh I had Circus Circus on theinside of me with Prevost, I
think, and chip on the outsideof me, and we exited uh the
final heat on you know uh turnone and two, and down the back
(15:45):
stretch we're now looking at a15 knot uh headwind, you know.
As soon as I got to the exit ofturn two, I activated the air
brakes, and a third of the waydown the straightaway I had each
one of them I could see in myperipheral vision, one on one
side, one on the other.
(16:05):
And then all of a sudden Ididn't see them anymore, and I
looked on my mirror so Icouldn't see them anymore.
And when I got to the corner,three, four corner, I'm exiting
that turn and I see they're noteven there yet.
Well, I had to get out of itbecause they were they were
flighty and I wasn't.
I just I was pinned to thewater.
But anyway, long story short, Ifrom that point on always kept
(16:28):
uh the boat as snug as Ipossibly could.
I never wanted to get it blownover again.
And uh we did more stuff to uhoperate the canards uh and and
the air brakes and stuff.
We evolved that even better asas time went on, especially in
(16:49):
1990, you know, when when I wasable to we we put a toe strap on
the left pedal.
There's a whole lot of you knowuh technical stuff that we did
there that helped.
Uh we went from a uh you know adimmer switch, uh, which worked
the best as what we ended upwith.
We had a starter button, likewhen I hit that, uh it would
(17:12):
start to deploy the air brakes,but uh you couldn't keep my foot
on the starter button to keepthe brakes where I wanted it.
So we put in a switch off of anold Cadillac for making the
lights brighter and dimmer.
It's like click-click, they'reon, and click, click, it's off,
you know.
So when I click-click it, theywent fully deployed, and my foot
could be jumping around the leftfoot, and they'd still stay up,
(17:35):
if you know what I mean.
And then if I wanted them down,I click-click again.
You follow me?
And then they were tracked, theywere pneumatically operated.
So and then I also had a toestrap put on the alieron uh so
that I could pull for lift andpush and eliminate the trim
switches on the steering wheelcompletely.
SPEAKER_04 (17:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
So there's a lot of things that we did that made it
even more drivable friendly forme.
SPEAKER_02 (17:59):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, you did you didwhat you needed too, because
like you said, that was 88, itwas the only time he flipped um
weather.
SPEAKER_01 (18:07):
So I boat, and it was actually uh an axle on the
spot the hard wing that bent.
SPEAKER_03 (18:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (18:15):
Right.
They the crew sent those thingsout after Cropfield drove the
year before and had themsolution and healed and reheat
treated and checked formagniflux and x-ray and all that
kind of stuff.
And uh when they came back, theynever checked the hardness, and
they found out when theysolution and healed them, they
forgot to heat treat them.
So they were dead soft comparedto a heat-treated shaft that the
(18:38):
canards were mounted to.
That's why it bent.
It was twisted like a pretzel.
SPEAKER_02 (18:44):
Yeah.
Well, that's that's out of yourcontrol, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (18:47):
Oh, yeah.
Doug Ford did the calculationsand he said at 150 miles an hour
it'd be like a 250-pound manjumping on the back of the
canard and bending, you know,the shaft, which is what
happened, you know.
SPEAKER_04 (19:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:03):
So anyway.
Well, yeah.
Uh well, around that time, likeyou mentioned earlier, '91, uh,
you you had a a wreck in a car,car racing accident.
Um, and you spent some timeracing cars.
Uh and unfortunately, I think itstopped with that that wreck.
And what can you tell us aboutyour car racing days?
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
Well, in 77, I, you know, I I've always had the
inkling to want to race midgets,you know.
And uh United States Auto Clubcame out with a series called
Mini Indy or Super V.
And they were smaller cars.
It was a Saturday race beforethe Indy Car race.
I did have a lot of friends thatraced indie cars and and still
(20:51):
do today that were former, youknow, champions.
Johnny Rutherford, Foyt, youknow, uh Mike Devin, one of the
best crew chiefs in Indy around.
And so I was going to thoseraces helping Roger McCluskey,
you know, uh Johnny Parsons Jr.
uh as a crew member, and theyall kind of talked me into
(21:13):
getting into the mini indieseries, uh which was new for
USAC at that time.
So uh I got one and uh proceededto wreck it.
And so then I got another oneand uh was having fun with it
and learning more.
The very first race I I took myfirst uh rear engine car to the
(21:35):
it was a Lola.
Uh I looked like a fighter piloton the end of a string until the
string broke, you know.
And I that was at Milwaukee andI crashed it and be destroyed
the car.
So I found another vehicle,another Lola, and uh got it
ready and finished the seasonwith that car at a much more
(21:55):
conservative uh approach.
And uh so then I did order ananother one brand new.
And uh uh and I raced uh thatseries.
Uh and again, I was a novice.
I should have started racinggo-karts and stuff like that
when I was 12, 13, 14, like Idid boats, you know, but I
(22:17):
didn't.
And so uh but it was fun becauseI was learning new stuff, you
know.
I was learning new things.
That really did help me later onwhen I was driving the
Budweiser, you know, running acleaner line into the corners,
out of the corners, stuff likethat.
So and uh but anyway, so andthen I ran uh uh I got a midget
(22:38):
too, a USAC midget.
And I did better on dirt than Idid on pavement.
But obviously when you're goingto uh the mini indie races or
the or this or the midget races,you know, you're looking at
forty some people time in, youknow.
And they're all trying to do thesame thing as win the race.
And of course uh I didn't evenstart racing cars till I was in
(23:01):
my thirties.
So I was way behind the curve ofthese younger guys.
SPEAKER_03 (23:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
So but I was having fun.
And uh I did get an opportunityuh late to drive uh a stock car.
And I drove Rockingham, uh,Richmond, Charlotte, and
unfortunately I got in amulti-car wreck at Charlotte,
uh, my second race there, and uhended up uh breaking C2, same
(23:28):
thing that Cropfield broke.
So I was in a halo for threemonths and a hard collar for
three months and a soft collarand it pretty much ended my
racing career because I do Idon't have any ligament
attachment anymore.
So uh if I were to get involvedin a similar type of accident,
(23:48):
even on the street, uh yourligaments help keep your head on
your shoulders, you know, andkeep your spinal cord from
breaking.
Fortunately for me, my break wasa tension break.
Had it been a compressionfracture where it would implode
internally.
Um in other words, my head triedto snap off my spine, so it was
(24:12):
like you know, pulled away.
Where Stephen Reeves, Superman,when he dove, uh whatever he
did, he imploded his C2 and hebecame a quadruple.
I was lucky.
Mine was separated by uh ahundred thousand, so I still
have the x-rays.
So when I broke C2, um basalskull fracture, I could have
(24:35):
died, but I didn't.
SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:37):
So very God spared me.
SPEAKER_02 (24:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Very unfortunate to go throughthat process, but fortunately
it's not worse, right?
And you're still alive, stillhere today to tell your tales.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
God had different plans for me.
I started the vintage in a storycategory after that, and then
and that led to saving the GoldCup races in Detroit.
Uh they went bankrupt in 03, andand basically all the uh you
know, newspapers and magazines,Crane's Magazine, which is a uh
(25:09):
a magazine that all the businessleaders read every morning, you
know.
That said, it'll take a miracle.
The boat races aren't gonnahappen this year, and so stick a
fork in it, it's done.
Uh there will be no hydroplaneraces this year.
And that was uh I guess we did amiracle because in six weeks
later I I formed a new group andmy late wife and I spearheaded
(25:33):
the whole thing and we saved thethat's like saving the Indy 500,
if you know what I mean.
That's more proud of that thananything I ever did behind the
steering wheel because first ofall, the opportunity to save uh
uh uh a sport you loved and andsave a tradition that was going
on in Detroit for a hundredyears and uh to bring it back.
(25:57):
And so I did it oh three, four,and five and pulled it out of
the red and put it in the blackbig time.
SPEAKER_04 (26:03):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
So that that you know God had plans for me other
than driving racing vehicles.
SPEAKER_04 (26:09):
So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:11):
Well the relic vintage historic category is is
probably one of the most popularcategories in APBA today.
SPEAKER_02 (26:19):
And I is yeah, I ran it for about 14 years.
Yeah, it's amazing to seeinboard racing and unlimited
class, all these differentclasses, all these vintage boats
coming out now.
And um it's it's really uh funto have at the races and um it
brings back a lot of memoriesand brings another aspect to the
(26:40):
sport that that's needed.
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Yeah.
No, and I've I'm proud of thefact that uh 1993, I you know, I
got the the uh APBA commissionto approve me to start the
category, which I did.
Wrote the rules on everything.
SPEAKER_02 (26:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:57):
Not the ones they have today, but the original
ones, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (27:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you for getting thatgoing and and preserving a lot
of boats.
I'm sure that inspired a lot ofpeople to preserve boats that
probably wouldn't be here today.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
Well, I took a lot of worthless boats that were
worth nothing and made themvaluable for sure.
In fact, I own a couple of them.
SPEAKER_02 (27:20):
Well, well, some something around that time, I
think it was early 2000s, yougot to be a part of the
organization that was runningthe sport at the time.
I can't remember if it wasHydropop or UHRA.
It went through several names atthe time.
Yeah, and I remember being veryexcited at that time because I
think you were named chairman orhad a leadership position.
(27:42):
And I knew it was your possessyour passion and knowledge that
you were going to propel thesport forward um a pun there, I
guess.
But what can you tell us aboutthat?
About that time.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
Well, you're right.
Here's how it happened.
I remember I started vintage andhistoric.
Yeah.
And uh uh initially I was doinguh what I called tag along.
In other words, I was taggingalong, vintage and historic was
tagging along an inboard race oran unlimited race, uh the
sanction-wise, insurance-wise.
(28:15):
Eventually, uh I wanted to getto standalone events.
What I mean by that is uhstrictly a vintage event, uh not
tagging along an inboardhydroplane race or an unlimited
hydroplane race.
And so I started doing that, andI did Lake George and Lake
Winnipesaukee, so I hadexperience now of putting on
(28:38):
standalone events without a boatrace being there, okay?
And these were fresh, brand newlocations at downtown Lake
George, New York, and also LakeWinnipes, and other other sites
I did too.
Well, when I saved the Gold Cuprace in 2003 and pulled him out
(28:59):
of bankruptcy and did the 04event, which is the hundredth
anniversary of the Gold Cup,Gary Garbrick and Bernie were
partners, you know, in in theHydroprop, I guess is what it
was called back then.
SPEAKER_02 (29:13):
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
Bernie Bernie had enough of Gary Garbrick, so he
wanted out, you know, Gary wascreating a lot of uh turbulence
in his own sport of theunlimited with the piston boats
and the turban boats, you know,with restrictions on it wanted
to do on everything.
Right.
And so there was a lot ofturmoil, there was talk of uh
(29:34):
outlaw breaking away, whicheventually the sport did, but in
2004, again, I put on the theDetroit race very successfully,
very financially successful.
And that's when Charlie Strangand I think uh let's see,
Charlie Strang, uh Edgar Rose,these are the old power of APBA.
(30:00):
Stan Fitz, they saw the theproblems that were going on with
the unlimited category and GaryGarbrick.
And so basically they had aDutch uncle talk with Gary
Garbrick and said, You need totake a back seat and you need to
put Tom Deet in charge of thesport because there were already
(30:23):
races that year that werebreaking away from APBA.
Um I think Pasco broke away,Seattle did not, St.
Clair, Michigan did not, and SanDiego broke away.
So they put me uh asked if Iwould be interested in running
the sport.
(30:43):
Um and Gary was gonna take aback seat and I would get uh
paid from Hydro Prop for myservices and so I decided, yeah,
what the hell I can do that, youknow.
So I did run uh
unknown (31:02):
St.
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
Clair, Michigan, and I did run Seattle.
But it was there was enoughundercurrent with the owners
that even though I was verysuccessful at paying them lots
of money for the Gold Cup racefor the last two years, they had
other ideas of where they wantedto go.
(31:24):
In the meantime, I wasnegotiating with Gary Garbrick
to buy all the assets of Hydrop,which was the rescue boats, uh
the clocks, the semi-trucks andtrailers, the timing equipment,
the buoys, everything you'd needto put on a race, you know.
He was still alive, and uh hewas reluctant to sell it to me
(31:47):
for$220,000, which was my offerfrom Detroit River Regatta
Association.
SPEAKER_04 (31:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:54):
Anyway, he dropped dead on the golf course.
I don't know if he died on thehe had a heart attack dead on
the golf course.
So Trent Ling, his attorney, uhnow was responsible for the
Garbrick family's assets, whichincluded Hydrop.
(32:15):
Uh he had visions of taking overthe sport and running.
We all kind of went to San Diegoto talk to the owners to stop
the nonsense of outlaw racing.
Anyway, they didn't like TrentLing, and they didn't really
like me because they barred mefrom the pit area in San Diego.
(32:36):
So I had to watch from the umpleasure area.
SPEAKER_03 (32:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:40):
And uh and so bottom line, when I went home, I had
and they didn't like Trent Lingfor sure.
Uh they seemed to be gravitatingtowards Sam Cole, and I knew
what a crook he was, so I didn'twant no part of him.
So I just kind of stood in thewayside and started to do my own
thing.
(33:00):
And uh I ended up negotiatingwith Trent Ling and bought all
the assets of Hydrop um for$180,000 instead of$220,000.
I say I, I didn't.
Detroit River Regatta, which wasthe nonprofit organization that
I formed to save the races, theyended up uh paying that bill.
(33:22):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (33:22):
Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (33:23):
So anyway, um the $220,000.
I got a bargain because I got itfor$180,000.
And uh uh everything, the semis,the trailers, the clocks, the
computer stuff, the fuel flowstuff for the turbines, um
rescue boats and trailers.
There were two of them, uh, allthat stuff, all the archival
(33:45):
stuff.
Uh Judy and I loaded up all thethe movie footage and the TV
footage from uh uh after the warall the way to present.
That was all our stuff.
And uh Judy and I moved it allto the and a display boat.
I bought a display boat for theTide Display Boat that Gary
owned, and I paid$225,000 forthat, and I brought it to
(34:10):
Detroit and gave it to DetroitRiver Regatta Association.
That's one of the last things Idid.
It was uh you know a mock-upboat, but and it's all painted
red now, and I think it saysMiss DYC on it.
But Judy, I actually bought itand gave it to uh Detroit River
Regatta.
SPEAKER_04 (34:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:28):
So and of course, that's when we exited the sport
too, and the Gold Cup race I'mtalking about in Detroit.
Uh I ran it in 03, 4, and 5.
SPEAKER_04 (34:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:38):
And uh I left them with a ton of money and Judy's
recipe book on how we dideverything and who we dealt
with.
SPEAKER_02 (34:45):
Yeah.
And uh and it's no, yeah, it'sso sad that they're not racing
in Detroit anymore.
I've I've never gottenexperienced being to a Detroit
race, and I know there's so manyfans out there that are wanting
that back.
And hope hopefully we'll getback, but I'm not holding my
(35:05):
breath for it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:06):
Yeah, I don't think you should hold your breath.
The people that have it now,there's only three people that
are in charge of it, and that'suh Doug Bernstein, the lawyer,
good friend of mine, uh a bigfan, but not much for business.
Uh and Bruce Motti's a PR guyfrom the University of Michigan,
but he only wanted to ever getpaid.
(35:27):
He didn't want to do anythingfor free.
SPEAKER_04 (35:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:30):
Mark Weber, who likes to tell everybody how good
he is, but basically, and I lovethe family, don't get me wrong,
the Weber, I love Mike, Mark,and his whole family.
But basically, for the last sixyears, they've done nothing.
So I did the event in six weeksand pulled them out of the red
and put them in the black.
And this is no bullshit.
I left them with$900,000 in thebank, all the assets of Hydro
(35:53):
Prop,$330,000 in accountsreceivable and all bills paid.
SPEAKER_04 (35:58):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (35:59):
When I turned it over to the board.
The last person I put on theboard was Jim Scheibel, the
president of Chrysler JeepSuperstores.
SPEAKER_02 (36:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:07):
And that was in the end of 05 season.
SPEAKER_02 (36:11):
Wow.
Wow, 20 years ago.
SPEAKER_00 (36:14):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:15):
Yeah.
Geez.
SPEAKER_00 (36:17):
This race has been going on since 1916.
SPEAKER_02 (36:21):
Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:22):
1916.
Not on my route did it stop.
SPEAKER_02 (36:26):
Right.
Oh man.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:31):
So well, going back to your racing days, you you
raced against many talentedindividuals, um, both with and
against, and uh a lot of bignames.
I was hoping I could just say aname and maybe could share a
story uh or your memory ofracing with or against those
people.
SPEAKER_01 (36:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:50):
First on my list, I have Dean Chenowith.
SPEAKER_01 (36:53):
Gentleman's gentleman, just like George
Simon.
Um I never really raced againsthim in limited inboards, but uh
a class act as sportsman on therace course, I know.
SPEAKER_02 (37:05):
Yeah.
How about Jim Cropfield?
SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
Hard charger.
Uh definitely was a stand on thegas guy.
Um uh he would give you almostenough uh to be legal, if you
know what I mean.
In tight situations, yeah.
He would he would leave mealmost not enough room and on
(37:30):
purpose, which is great.
I may be I never did that toanybody, but but he was really
good at uh making you work hardto get around him.
And he was a hard-charging guy.
He had a temper, but uh on therace course he was phenomenal.
He was really a great driver.
How about Chip Hanower?
(37:51):
You want the truth, or you wantme to sugarcoat it?
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
The floor is yours.
I always I always I always askfor the truth.
SPEAKER_01 (38:02):
And there's two drivers that I did not look
forward to to being with on therace course, and uh they were I
probably shouldn't even saythis, but Terry Turner and Chip
were not exactly the cleanestracers that I ever raced
against.
That's a that's a polite way ofputting it.
(38:24):
Okay, okay, okay.
Don't get me wrong, they stoodon the gas, both of them, but uh
but uh they did stuff on therace course that uh I think
sportsmanship uh should havebeen adhered to and it wasn't.
SPEAKER_02 (38:40):
Wow, okay, okay.
Um Bill Cantrell.
SPEAKER_01 (38:45):
Never raced against Bill.
Uh I admired his career.
Um uh obviously he drove atIndianapolis, which uh anybody
that that races would yearn tojust go around the track, let
alone race there, and he did ittwice.
SPEAKER_04 (39:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
So uh but us kids really looked up to him uh as
well as also Bob Hayward and uhsome of the other legends of the
Detroit uh area.
How about Larry Lauterbach?
Larry Lauterbach and I could rundeck to deck.
Uh I don't care whether it'sGrand Prix or whatever, and we
(39:25):
would never do anything uh wrongto each other.
We would put on someunbelievable races, and uh him
and I I would have no troublerunning 10 feet away from all
the way around the race course,and him to me, one of the one of
the most underrated and bestdrivers I've ever raced against.
SPEAKER_02 (39:46):
Yeah, that's fun when you have that level of
trust with someone, right?
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (39:51):
Bernie Little.
SPEAKER_01 (39:54):
He was a take no prisoner's owner, uh, owner.
Um I mean, if you weren't usefulto him, you were the enemy.
And uh and if you were a tooland he had no use for you, you
were lucky if you made it backin the toolbox.
Was he good to me when I drovefor him?
Yes, he was.
He was is is is he was reallygood to me and my family.
(40:18):
Uh, when I was against him anddriving against him, I was his
arch rival, and he didn't likeme worth two squirts of coon
shed.
But we helped each other when heneeded help, and I certainly
needed the golden ride to finishmy career off.
So I will always love the manfor that.
(40:39):
He gave me the equipment finallyum to win races with, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (40:44):
He did.
SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
Yeah.
How about Mark Tate?
I never really uh, yes, we diduh race and unlimited, but he
wasn't in the similar equipment,if you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_02 (40:57):
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
Um uh I did help Mark a lot in his early career.
Um, you know, he drove the zerofor um uh which he set the world
record with in St.
Pete, and uh his father wasinstrumental in him making it to
the Unlimiteds.
But uh I think that uh betweendriving the stock seven liter,
(41:20):
which I have nothing to do with,that was Jimmy Deal's boat, but
um he uh we went to St.
Pete with the Miss Zero, and TomFunka and his wife Maria owned
the boat, and we had two motorsfor the boat.
I was kind of like the crewchief on it, and uh we tested
with the Ford, which was a newmotor coming out, and we tested
(41:41):
with the Chevrolet, and then weput the Ford back in it, and
then he was testing it.
Uh, this was before the race,and blew it over backwards and
landed upside down and smashedit.
He was thrown clear andparachute worked, and so he was
sore and bruised, but he wasokay.
And uh the boat got back to thedock, and we got it back on the
(42:02):
trailer, and it was a mess.
The deck had fracturedeverywhere, and the calling was
screwed up, and everybody said,Well, this thing is done for the
weekend.
And uh what they forgot is I hadfriends in St.
Pete.
Okay, I had a marina there.
So uh the one guy that had awood shop, I got a hold of him
right away, and I told Tom Funkand Maria, you guys go to dinner
(42:23):
and have fun.
Um, don't worry about your boat,I'll have it ready in the
morning.
And they all looked at me like,yeah, all right, okay.
We've heard ducks fartunderwater before.
And guess what?
I had it all patched up, didn'tlook pretty, but guess what?
Mark Tate went out and ran 97mile an hour set of world
competition record with it.
SPEAKER_02 (42:44):
That's a fun story.
SPEAKER_01 (42:45):
Yep.
So it looked ugly, but it wentfast.
SPEAKER_02 (42:49):
That's all that matters.
All right, how about ScottPierce?
SPEAKER_01 (42:55):
Scotty's such a good friend.
Uh, you know, um he actually, Ithink, cheated himself by
sidestepping experience in theearlier years of his racing and
got right into unlimitedprobably quicker than he should
have.
He wasn't ready for it.
(43:15):
But he he did teach himself andlearn how to become an unlimited
racer, yes.
Uh, did he have the Cropfieldkiller instinct or the Chipanour
killer instinct?
I'm gonna say probably not.
Uh I don't know if he knew howto get the most out of his boat,
uh, but uh really a super niceguy, a great friend.
(43:39):
I'm so glad I took the MissWashington, D.C.
uh out to Seattle or you know,Mahogany and Merlot.
No one knew at that time that wewere gonna lose Scotty.
SPEAKER_02 (43:52):
No, it was a shock, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:53):
Yeah, and he never drove a lot back, but I knew he
had conventional experience, andand he was so good to me when I
came to Seattle uh in 2017, letme hang around his crew, and and
I had a dog, which you know theydon't allow in the pit area, and
we kind of snuck him in.
So I just I felt I owed Scotty,plus we were great friends, and
(44:18):
I could tell you couldn't getthe smile off his face after he
drove the Miss Washington, DC.
And it was a warm feeling for mebecause I knew that I was no
longer um when I tested the DC,I knew it was the boat was ahead
of me, I wasn't ahead of it.
There's there comes a time inyour racing life when when you
(44:39):
know that it's time for younever to get back in a boat
again, and that that was uh thatwas apparent to me l earlier in
2019 when I tested it, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (44:50):
Yeah, uh well, yeah, I remember I was actually there
at the Mahogner Low.
That was a beautiful boat.
Um yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:58):
It's still beautiful, sitting in my garage.
SPEAKER_02 (45:00):
Yeah.
Good.
SPEAKER_01 (45:03):
Scotty.
SPEAKER_02 (45:04):
Oh, really?
Oh man.
Are you gonna bring it back outanytime?
SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
I will.
Um, I'm not sure where uh orwhen, but I will.
I take it out of the garage andI fire it up, and you know, I
obviously you'd have tosummarize it and winterize it.
Uh but I I like the smell ofalcohol and I like to hear the
sound of it, and it's ready togo.
But uh uh I I'd have to find aqualified driver to put in it.
SPEAKER_03 (45:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (45:31):
And uh believe it or not, it's hard to find someone
that's got conventionalexperience that would really
know what to do with it.
Uh cab over drivers that havenever driven a conventional, I'm
reluctant to even let them getin this boat, to be honest with
you.
SPEAKER_02 (45:46):
Oh, I'm sure.
I'm sure, yeah.
It's different, different game.
SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
Different for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (45:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:53):
Uh Ron Brown.
Best crew chief, unbelievable.
I mean, the guy's a genius, andhe'll outwork anybody.
Uh he's he was my crew chief forfive of my six gold cups, and I
called six because three wereCanadian.
So two with Ronnie, and allthree of my Gold Cup wins were
(46:13):
with Ronnie, APBA Gold Cups.
SPEAKER_03 (46:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
The only Gold Cup that I uh Prince Edward Gold Cup
that I won without Ronnie was uhDon Ryan and Sonny and the deep
Don Ryan's waterback special.
SPEAKER_04 (46:28):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (46:29):
So designed the the Budweiser, Turban II and three.
We were onto something.
It's a shame that that wholething didn't happen.
I got hurt and and yeah.
But basically, we're, I think,on the verge of revolutionizing
the sport.
Between you and I and the gatepost, I don't think the sport's
gotten any faster or bettersince uh you know since 1990.
SPEAKER_02 (46:54):
I think basically the speeds are roughly around
the same, the same, I think.
Yeah.
They're just kind of gettingdifferent tactics to get there
now with the restrictions, butyeah, it hasn't really advanced
uh faster since then.
SPEAKER_01 (47:10):
Hardly at all.
Hardly at all.
Yeah.
And so uh, I mean, look at lookat how Ronnie he designed Turban
2, you know, and they built itin the butt shop.
That was not they yes, they usedJones canoes and stuff like
that, but basically that was allRon Brown on the drawboard that
(47:31):
did all that.
And uh Lauren and Tim andReinberger and uh Kurt Tavanier
and the guys in the shop thatwere the geniuses, you know,
putting all that stuff together.
Right.
Uh and he designed builtpropellers.
Of course, I built propellersfor the Miss US racing team, so
Ronnie took it to a whole newlevel, you know.
(47:53):
Uh the props that I designed andbuilt for the Miss US way back
in the 70s were archaic anddinosaur looking compared to
what he did with the Budweiserteam, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (48:07):
He made some beautiful equipment.
SPEAKER_01 (48:12):
I found Dewey, that's a whole cool story there.
But basically, Dewey uh came tothe sport when the sport needed
Dewey Norton.
And uh he made everybody bbetter in the turbine engine
department.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (48:26):
George Simon.
SPEAKER_01 (48:30):
Oh, the best of the best.
Uh Ray Gasner and George Simonare the gentleman's gentleman of
the sport, for sure.
Uh put yourself in GeorgeSimon's shoes back in 1973 to
take a 20-some-year-old kid andput him in charge of his
(48:51):
unlimited racing team and allowthat young man to order a boat
from Ron Jones Marine that noone had any faith in, but
convinced George that that's thefuture and the way to go in the
sport.
And where I'm gonna end thisconversation right now about the
(49:13):
Miss US, I think there are twopeople in the sport that have
really dictated where the sportwent.
1950, Ted Jones came east withthe slow motion four, they
already set the straightawayrecord and won the Gold Cup in
(49:34):
Detroit in 1950.
That was the first prop riding,rooster tail throwing, unlimited
hydroplane uh period.
And that sent the tone from 1950until 1975, when the pay and
(49:54):
pack, all the boats that won agold cup, you sat behind the
engine, and they were propriding rooster tail throwing
hydroplanes, okay?
Right 1976, think about this.
The very first time ever that acab over won a gold cup.
Pickle fork cab over.
SPEAKER_02 (50:14):
That's true.
SPEAKER_01 (50:14):
In 2025, there has been nothing but pickle fork cab
overs win the gold cup.
SPEAKER_02 (50:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (50:24):
There's never been a sit behind the engine boat, win
the gold cup since 1976.
And that's the son of Ted Jonesthat brought that revolution to
the sport that isn't getting thecredit that he's due.
That's my opinion.
SPEAKER_04 (50:43):
Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (50:44):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (50:47):
That's incredible to think about, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (50:49):
Yeah, it is.
It is incredible.
I didn't Yeah, I didn't eventhink about that.
SPEAKER_01 (51:02):
Since uh 76.
That's all it's won.
Till 2025.
Still continuing on.
Where Ted Jones changed thesport from 1950 to 1975, and his
son, Ron Jones, changed thesport from 1976 until today.
SPEAKER_02 (51:19):
Yeah.
Amazing.
All right, last name I have foryou.
Yep.
Jim Harvey.
SPEAKER_01 (51:29):
Unbelievable, super nice guy, and what a fun guy to
drive for.
He had all the faith in theworld in me, and he's he his
team was like a well-oiledmachine.
But the difference betweenZubich and Harvey is Zuvich had
oil all over the deck and thebills, and Harvey had hardly
(51:50):
none.
But we they put every time weran the boat, we took the engine
out, put it on the ground,pulled the blower off, went
through, checked the quillshafts and the gears and stuff,
and inspected everything, put itall back together again.
And I know I didn't run the fullseason in 85 and 86, but every
race we ran, we never brokeanything.
(52:12):
We never had a problem.
And you could wipe up the billswith two paper towels, period.
SPEAKER_02 (52:18):
That's that's a wild stat to me.
That's just wild.
SPEAKER_01 (52:20):
Oh, yeah, and what a fun boat to drive.
I'm so glad I got theopportunity to drive a boat with
nitrous oxide and andsuperchargers instead of
turbochargers, and a boat thathandled as nicely as the 82
Atlas Van Lines, which becamethe squire I drove in 85 and 86.
SPEAKER_02 (52:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:42):
Yeah.
I love Jim Harvey.
SPEAKER_02 (52:45):
Yeah.
Well, he he did a lot for thesport, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (52:48):
Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (52:50):
Well, well, Tom, it's been so much fun talking
with you.
I'm sorry I took so much of yourtime today.
Uh it was so fun talking aboutyour career and just hearing
those stories from you.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (53:00):
So no, it's uh I'm glad I was a small part of the
sport.
Like I said, uh I'm more proudof saving the Gold Cup race in
Detroit.
Unfortunately, it's not going onnow, but not on my watch.
Uh that was quite a challenge,and a whole story in itself is
how that happened.
And and uh, you know, not manypeople get the opportunity to be
(53:24):
able to be the little kid fromAshland Avenue that grew up on
the Fox Creek Canal to save asport that was traditionally
going on for over a hundredyears in the city of Detroit.
And I do have a propproclamation from Wayne County
and and uh mayor Kavanaugh uhthanking me for doing that.
(53:47):
So that's very special.
SPEAKER_02 (53:49):
Yeah, that's big.
That's big.
Well not the last that's the endof another interview for the
interesting thing.
If you like the interview andyou like the content we're
providing, social media, likeand following the five, and
(54:10):
following the five, and thenwe're gonna do that.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.