Ep 69 – Masters of the Air – Tuskegee Airmen, POW Marches and Closing Thoughts (Part Three)

In this episode of Rosie the Reviewer, we're wrapping up our three-part journey through Masters of the Air with a look at episodes 7-9.  We're once again joined by George! From the marches out of Stalag Luft III to Rosies' decision to fly more missions and Croz sleeping through D-Day. We get into the show's depiction of the Tuskegee Airmen and see where everybody ends up. Safe flight, Masters!

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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Welcome to Rosie the Reviewer. We're your host.
I'm Sam. And I'm married you.
And we like World War 2 media and we want to talk about it.
Welcome back to Rosie the reviewer.
This week we are doing our finalepisode on Masters of the Air
covering episodes 7 to 9. Masters of the Air came out in

(00:24):
2024 and you can watch it on Apple TV.
And we are welcoming back Georgethis week to discuss the final
episodes. Welcome back, George.
I'm still here. So here's what you missed so far
on Masters of the Air are sort of main characters Buck and
Bucky and their crews are all inthe POW camp star like Lift 3.
Meanwhile, back in England, Rosie Rosenthal has had a little

(00:46):
R&R and he's gotten back to flying more missions.
And Harry Crosby, of course, is the group navigator and he's
having a tough time with the onehundredths losses, like most of
them are. Shall we get right into the
episodes? I guess.
All right, let's get into the plot.

(01:11):
We open in 1944, in March 1944 instead of 3.
So with our prisoners, everybody's called the miserable
and they're eating some cat soupbecause there's no much else
around and it's protein. The conditions in the camp are
pretty dire. The Red Cross has not been able

(01:32):
to get any meal or packages intothe camp and basically they're
all just not having a great time.
So as we meet them, they are kind of listening to the radio
and they're getting the latest news from the front lines.
So Monte Casino has just happened and it's failed quite a
bit. And the Allies are kind of
beached on NGO in Italy, so it'snot very good news.

(01:55):
And the radio unfortunately getsfound by the Germans on a
midnight of belt, so they have to build a new one and get new
part for this. Yes, you should listen to our
episode on The Great Escape because we talk about a lot of
the things that the prisoners got up to sometimes, honestly,
like they did want news from thefront, of course, and that was

(02:16):
the reason for building a radio.But a lot of the time in the POW
camps, you just had to do something.
Like you had to have an activitythat you could devote yourself
to so that you didn't just simply lay down and not get up.
Because it's quite like a psychological burden to be shut
away like that on an indefinite timeline and not know when
you're going to be released. You can also listen to our Great
Escape episode to hear more about the big escape that gets

(02:38):
mentioned in this episode of Masters of the Air, wherein some
British airmen escaped from sortof the other compound of the
camp. And if you recall from that
episode, many of them were rounded up and 50 of them were
shot. So that gets a mention in this
episode as well. And of course, once that
happens, as you can imagine, therelationship between the German
guards and the prisoners sours even further.

(03:00):
Yeah, obviously when you watch The Great Escape, you got a
whole movie about just this. But they do a nice job, I feel,
on this episode to kind of show you what it would have been like
scrounging part. Bookie gets to do the scrounging
in this. Everybody's got a little role to
play, and I quite like that they've tried to show you that
in very little time. Just I find this episode quite,

(03:23):
it goes back and forth quite a lot.
So obviously we're not going over all of it, but I found
these episodes in particular really difficult to follow from
a storytelling perspective. I don't know how you guys feel
about that. I think they sometimes had a
problem with the time jumping, and I think that's a problem
actually I have with the entire series of Master of the Air I.

(03:43):
It's hard to get a sense of how long anything is taking and like
the time skips in between. So that's what I struggle with.
Less so like the actual storyline in the episodes, if
that makes sense. There's a sense of scale that I
find difficult. That does make sense.
And to me as well, you go from like sunny England, surprisingly
sunny England at this point through like very wintery

(04:08):
Germany. So you're like, wait, is it
still winter in England? Do you get what you mean?
Yeah, I think it's probably tough if you have a couple of
your main characters who are shut away in stasis effectively.
Like really, they get shot down in the fall of 1943 and they get
liberated in the spring of 1945.So it's like 18 months where not

(04:30):
a lot happens. So just trying to keep those
characters in play and involved in the storyline and still have
somewhat interesting things happen to them as maybe a bit
difficult. Oh yeah, I absolutely feel for
what they were trying to do there.
In my heart of hearts, I kind ofwish that they had.
I think had the Courage is quitea damning phrase, so something
less damning than Had the Courage, but left Kleven and

(04:54):
Egan out of it for a while and really just focused on the
others. Because we skip over huge chunks
of what, you know, Rosie and Cross and so on get to do so
that we can stay with GAIL and John.
And I don't know if that actually served the series as a
whole. But you did get more Austin
Butler, though. I do enjoy Austin Butler, I will
admit this. Back at Thorp Abbott's, our base

(05:16):
in England, the invasion of northwestern Europe is imminent.
Of course, this is in the few months before D-Day, and the
bombing campaign has been ongoing.
So they're getting a lot of replacement air crews coming in
because as we know, the casualtyrates were extremely high, and a
lot of them are, they don't have, of course, any experience

(05:36):
yet. The veterans are quite used to
seeing new guys show up and thenget shot out of the sky pretty
much immediately. So they don't really want to get
to know them very much. But on the bright side, Bailey
and Quinn, our two airmen who got shot down and escaped by
other resistance, are back. And again.
You can listen to our episode about the freedom line.
And they get to go home. Because if you are an airman who
escaped with the help of the resistance, obviously you know a

(05:58):
ton of information that would beuseful to the Germans if you
were captured again. So they wouldn't want to put you
in a position where you could beshot down and captured.
What just. Amuses me about that scene about
them returning. It's them on bikes.
Just general people on bikes arefunny to me because I live in a
country full of people who know how to bike, and when people
don't bike often they kind of shows and it's what they do.

(06:23):
Are you criticizing the bike riding techniques?
I mean, I can't ride a bike so maybe I should shut up.
Wow, this is just a national pride haterism of other people
riding bikes. I mean, the only bike I've ever
been on has had three wheels on it, so I don't think I got to
have an opponent. But you expressed one beautiful.

(06:44):
I mean, fair, but it's nice to see them back and it's nice to
see how happy the Grind crew is.We got to see Ken Lemons, quite
happy to see them. It's like a glimmer of hope in a
very dire time. So I do like that they show them
getting back, even though we don't see how they ended up
getting back. I think it's nice to have a
little bit of pleasure for them.I do wonder if we had gotten 11

(07:07):
episodes if perhaps we would have gotten to see the chunk of
the plot line of them crossing the Pyrenees, for example.
Yeah, it would have been interesting for sure.
After the good news, it's back to the missions.
So they go on a mission to Berlin.
It's March 6th, 1940, which is also known as Black Monday
because it goes very badly and 15 forts are shot down and there

(07:31):
are many, many, many, many wounded.
We see them all. It's pretty terrifying.
Yeah, and Harry Crosby is talking about how because
everything is frequently so terrible, a lot of the guys are
relying on other things to get by.
And so he calls up Sandra, and he's like, maybe we'll just have
a drink. But in his mind, he knows
they're going to smash. And so, yeah, he has a full on

(07:55):
relationship with Sandra, who's very secretive about what she's
been up to. Harry's always trying to ask
her, where have you been? And she's like, wouldn't you
rather know where I'm going to be?
Sort of thing. So she's.
Very fantastic line. Yes, it's interesting because if
you read Harry Crosby's memoir, he does reference this affair
and there's sort of a relationship he had with another

(08:16):
woman where he very emphaticallysays that he did not sleep with
her. And in the case of the woman
upon which Sandra is based, he does not make any such claim.
And so it seems quite evident from his book, even though he
never 100% comes out and says that he did have an affair with
this woman. But apparently there's a little
bit of controversy about whetherthis is true.
I think a couple of his kids think it's not true that he had

(08:38):
the affair, but a couple of themthink it is true.
So I just thought it was an interesting choice to include
it. There is a moment in the book, I
think he says something like, I had Gene at home and Sandra in
London, and I thought that's an interesting way of phrasing it
if you're not having an affair. So Landre is it Landre?
Yeah, Landre. Yeah, the real life woman is
Landre. Yeah.
I don't know. I can definitely also understand

(09:00):
like not wanting to think of your father as having an affair
so that I can understand them not wanting it to be true.
I do think it happened, but who am I to say that so?
No judgment on the kids. Nope.
So the 100 gets another leader. We get Lieutenant Colonel
Bennett, played by the one and only Corin Silva, with whom we

(09:24):
had a great interview on the show, so please check that out.
He assumes command of the 100 and he becomes command pilot for
the entire being as I take him Berlin again a day later after
the terrible mission that they already had.
And it's the same route. He's the kind of leader that
wants to show if I'm going to send my man into danger, I'm
also going to be in danger kind of thing.

(09:46):
Yeah. And we talked a little bit about
Bennett as a character when we did interview Corin, and he's
coming in in a situation where Buck and Bucky are gone.
And they imbued this real sort of Devil may Care spirit, a bit
of recklessness, I think, in the100th Bomb Group.
And Colonel Harding is gone, whohad a similar sort of vibe.

(10:06):
And so Lieutenant Colonel John Bennett comes in and I guess
cracks the whip a little bit, metaphorically.
There are some changes that he makes to the 100th that becomes
a little bit stricter, but the flip side of that is that it
probably does end up saving somelives.
He was reading John Bennett bookis called letters from England
earlier it published I think in 1945.

(10:27):
But Harry Crosby wrote a little preface to it in the 80s and he
said something really interesting.
What Harry Crosby said was more of us survived and more of us
got to go home. For that I give a great deal of
credit to one man and it's the man who wrote the book.
And so he really rated John Bennett and in the preface he
recounts the story and in a way in a prayer he recounts the
story where quite early on in his tenure John Bennett holds

(10:50):
him into his office. I think Across was in the shower
and he gets hauled into Bennett's office and Bennett
starts sort of like looking likehe's going to give him an
absolute dressing down, completely chewing it out.
And what he's saying is like, how's your wife?
How are you doing? How are you holding up?
And the actual conversation thatthey're having is quite lovely.
But Bennett is acting like he isgiving Crosby an absolute earful

(11:11):
so that everybody looking at himgoes, Oh my God, this guy, he's
being tough on Crosby. And Crosby's like one of the
guys who's good at their jobs. I have to do better at my job.
It's an absolutely fantastic bitof theater, and I think that
really speaks to the kind of guythat Bennett was.
He knew that he had to come in and like, put on this big old
show, but he genuinely cared. He did, and I think there were

(11:33):
some people who, you know, thereare always people who are going
to like someone like that and someone who are going to resent
something like that. I do love this Everett Blakely
quote that you've put in here because I also remember that
from Crosby's memoir where he said, I'm glad he's here about
Bennett. Before he got here, I was the
son of a bitch. Amazing.
I wish we had seen a little bit more in the show because you

(11:54):
don't really get a sense of his character very much from the
very few moments that he has. No, it's always nice to see
Karen. We love Karen Silva.
We do. This is the Karen Silva fan
account. Yeah.
So Rosie makes it to 25 missions.
And as you may recall, when theymake it to 25 missions, they get
to go home. But unfortunately, as they're
having their big celebration forRosie's crew making it back, the

(12:16):
brass UPS the missions for everyone else to 30 missions for
new crews or 28 for existing crews.
They haven't, yeah, reach 25 andRosie, everyone's asking him if
he's excited to go home, etc. But he ends up deciding to to re
up to remain and continue to flymissions.
And Bennett gives him a pretty grim warning about how they're

(12:38):
trying to get the Luftwaffe planes up into the air.
Because they have these new P51 Mustangs that are faster than
anything the Germans have got, and that's the easiest way to
take them out. But in order to get the
Luftwaffe into the air, they need to send bombers as bait
effectively. Yeah, this is the very end of
the episode. And then it never gets, it
doesn't get a following in the next episode.

(12:58):
Every stage shown the the dangerof it a little bit more.
They're going to set set it up in that conversation, which is
pretty intense, and then they just forget about it.
So I do wonder if that's anotherepisode cut from those 11
episodes, if it just got lost onthe editing floor, so to speak.
It's such a great point, such a great warning.

(13:20):
And then we don't get any pay off from that in the next
episode. I love the scene.
It's another scene, I think, which Nate man does so well.
Like the scene in the flak housewith the Doctor.
He's so still and like a lot of his acting is very internal and
it's just an absolutely fantastic little master class
and how you can do very little and give up this incredibly

(13:42):
powerful performance because youcan see everything that Rosie is
thinking inside. And then Wages of a Justice
Body, you know what's going to happen and you're waiting for
it. It's the anticipation of Rosie
volunteering again, that and notbeing phased by anything that
Bennett is telling him. It's just incredible.
It's incredibly powerful scene. And I did look up like how much

(14:03):
of this was real, how much of this was fictional?
And again, in Letters from England, Bennett said this about
the scene, He said, I asked Captain Rosenthal what kind of
job he wanted in the States, as I would like to write him a
letter of recommendation. You know, having finished his 25
missions, he was supposed to go home.
He said that he would like to have a week off to go to
Scotland and that on return he would be ready to start another
tour of 25 missions. And it's as simple as that.

(14:25):
And Rosie, I think, was the first person to volunteer.
I think others did also do more missions after they were
entitled to his quit. But Rosie, I think was the
first, he says. Reacting is one thing, but then
you have to react or another 25.Like it's not like I'm gonna do
three more now I'm gonna do 25 more.

(14:45):
Like the odds of not surviving that are so big it's wild.
Oh. Yeah.
No doubt. And I'm I was a little
disappointed that we didn't get in the show the story of why
Harry Cross we didn't get to go home, which is that he was
flying his last mission and he'son the plane and he's like, oh
hell yeah, I'm going home, baby.And then they get a call over

(15:06):
the radio and but they're like, oh, by the way, we're promoting
you to major. And if you're promoted to major
or above, you have to stay for the duration.
So like literally on his last flight, he's like, yeah, I'm
going home. They're like, no, you're not.
Brutal. Let me just close with the final
note and John Bennett, which is just a really lovely thing.
So John Bennett, he was in command of multiple times.

(15:28):
He's only ever meant to be the temporary commander.
So he stepped down and then his replacement was killed after I
think 11 days on one of his missions, which was the same
mission that Bubbles pain was killed.
And then Bennett comes back and he comes back again later on.
Years later when he died in 93, he asked that his ashes be
scattered overthought habits. And the family said that he was

(15:51):
expecting it to be like essentially they would sneak on
onto the airfield and just secretly do it.
But what actually ended up happening was this beautiful
event with veterans, with familywho turned up Soft Habits and
the runways were swept clean so that as a plane flew over, they
could scatter John Bennett's ashes over Soft Habits airfield.

(16:12):
And I just think that's beautiful.
That is really lovely. In episode 8, we start in Italy,
Italy and entered the ski airman.
We finally get out of skies and we did an episode about the

(16:35):
Tuskegee Airman about the movie retails.
So you can listen to that episode.
We're doing lots of plugging in this one.
We get introduced to the Tuskegee Airman and we follow
three main, so to speak. The first one is Lieutenant
Alexander Jefferson, played by Brendan Cook.
The second one is Lieutenant Richard D Macon, played by

(16:57):
Josiah Cross. And the third one is Lieutenant
Robert H Daniels, played by Shooting Edwa, who I think was
added just because he was shooting Edwa, to be honest.
So those are the three guys thatare used to tell the Tuskegee
story in this show, and I think it's nice that they've been
included. I would have just liked to have

(17:17):
a separate series just about theTuskegee.
That would have been great. Yeah, I think there's been like
a lot of commentary, like they didn't get enough time.
It would have been better if they had their own separate
series, but I thought they haven't got their own separate
series. This is no.
If we didn't have this episode, we wouldn't have a Tuskegee M
and historical episode at all. So I really like this, even

(17:37):
though I wish there was more of it and frankly, I would put you
to get well in anything all of the time.
I think he's very. Good.
I like him. I just thought, I thought his
presence in the show was quite jarring.
And part of it has got to do with his American accent, which
to me still sounds quite British, so maybe that's just

(17:58):
me, I don't know. You're British, George, Can you
tell us is it any good? I no, I don't know.
I don't think it's great. It every even when he had little
short lines, it was perilous. It was like every moment I was
like, oh, he's right on the edgethere.
He's going to slip into full on British in a second.
But he's so charming, easy to. Figure charming, although I have

(18:22):
to say Brendan Kirk because Alexander Jefferson my take the
cake for me. He's amazing in this.
Oh yeah, he's incredible. For sure.
And this gave me the opportunityto read Alexander Jefferson's
memoir. First of all, when I bought it,
I got a second hand copy and when I opened it, it had been
signed by him, so I was very excited about that.
And secondly, it's full of all of his drawings that he did

(18:45):
while he was in the Stalig. And so we see him draw in the
series, but in the book, you seehe's drawn his surroundings,
he's drawn his fellow Pows, he'sdrawn a picture of himself and
called himself the Luft gangsterbecause that's what the Germans
in their propaganda reels would call Allied airmen, basically
saying that they were the gangsters of the skies to try

(19:07):
and dehumanize them and imply that they were criminals.
And so he sort of took on that name with pride.
And I really enjoyed it. But as always, when you're
reading about the treatment of of black people in America,
historically not ideal. So 992 black men completed
military pilot training at Tuskegee.
And Jefferson explains in his memoir how by the time he

(19:30):
graduated from flight school, his class of 90 was down to 25.
And years later, they submitted a Freedom of Information request
and found out that the reason why so many black cadets, quote,
UN quote, washed out was becausethere was a quota on how many
black pilots were allowed to graduate.
And there is actually a quote from Jefferson, CEO and Masters
of the Air, where he says you didn't wash out, Alex, so don't

(19:51):
burn yourself out. And I do think that's a
reference to this idea of a higher number of black pilots
washing out the white pilots. But yeah, Tuskegee Airmen, their
lost record as an escort unit was among the lowest of all
American fighter groups. So they were very good at their
job. And the 332nd Fighter Group, of
which Alexander Jefferson was a part, is one of the most
decorated fighting units of the war.

(20:12):
They received 3 distinguished unit citations.
They flew more than 1800 missions and 66 of them died in
combat. And we also get a little quick
glimpse in the show very brieflyof then Colonel and commander of
the Tuskegee Airmen, but later to be General Benjamin O Davis
junior played by Jerry McKinnon and he was the first African

(20:33):
American Air Force general. He had a 35 year barrier
breaking military career and when he passed away in 2002,
several planes including AP 51 Mustang flew over his burial at
Arlington. That's beautiful.
I think we talked about him at more length in our episode about
Red Tails, so definitely go listen to that if you want to

(20:53):
know more about him. So Alex Jefferson expresses some
disappointment about not being able to fly more meaningful
missions. And this was actually, I think,
true for many of the Tuscales. They felt like they were just
destroying vehicles. They were like the SAS but in
the sky. But they wanted to do actual
missions. And he does get his rush because

(21:17):
they are told they are going to France and they're going to
clear the way for Operation Dragoon.
So that's an amphibious landing upon different cities, one of
them there in Toulon. We talked about this in our
Devil's Brigade episode, Operation Dragoon.
Did I just completely forget even though we talked about this
like 5 weeks ago? It was brief.
It was one of their missions after Monte La Defense.

(21:40):
They took part in Operation Dragoon and they captured I
think like 5 islands or something.
Two islands, 5 forts. All right, yeah.
So that's another episode. You can go listen to our cast.
What they have to do is they have to destroy, I think some of
the anti aircraft defenses alongthe coast so the landing can
happen successfully. And there's something a little

(22:02):
bit funny about this mission because there are P50 ones do
not have enough fuel in our tanks to make it all the way
home. But like, good luck.
You can make it there, but good luck getting back.
Try and get you allied land. And if not, we've given you
ideas and identities and you cantry to blend in.
It's like, what do you mean London?

(22:24):
Yeah, I mean, there were black people in Europe, but probably
not that many. Until, you know, with American
accents, yeah. So during their mission, our
three guys are shot down and captured.
This is in August of 1944. Macon is badly injured.
They all get interrogated by theGermans, and the Germans take

(22:47):
care to mention, like, why are you fighting for this country
that hates you? We know that you're second class
citizens at home. And Alex Jefferson mentions that
in his memoir, too. He's like, oh, yeah, This German
interrogator trying to imply that he personally wasn't racist
against black people and trying to act like the German regime
wouldn't do terrible things to racial minorities if given the
chance. So definitely some interesting

(23:08):
social commentary there and theyget brought to style Igloof 3 to
join up with our other guys. So 32 Tuskegee Airmen from the
332nd fighter grouper shot down and actually real life Alex
Jefferson almost had the thing happen to him.
In the previous episode we had talked about John Egan getting
attacked by civilians. And so Alex Jefferson and I

(23:29):
think Richard Macon were being taken from one railway station
to another. And there was a group of Hitler
Youth that were like starting tosurround them and was like
yelling stuff at them about how they were calling them lift
gangsters and terrorist Flyers and all this.
I'm sure much worse language as well.
And as they got onto the train, the Hitler Youth were like
surrounding the train and throwing things at it.

(23:50):
And we're having to be held at Bay by the men who were guarding
the airmen. He mentions it in particular as
being probably the scariest timethat he had after he was shot
down. Is it worth bringing up?
When the Tuskegee Emma turn up, you see different reactions from
the crowd of the gates. Initially you've got some people
who are looking at them who are clearly shocked and appalled

(24:13):
that there are black men coming into the camp.
And then you've got others who recognize exactly who they are
and are coming up and thanking them for being so incredible at
taking care of their bombers. It's a really small moment.
It's a really important moment, I think, because I think that
was an attitude from the men whoactually did interact with the

(24:36):
Red Tails. They ended up with a huge amount
of respect for them. That is not to undercut all of
the incredible racism that was also still very much directed
towards them. There is a scene in Red Tails,
actually, it's kind of a little bit blue because there's a white
pilot just being incredibly complimentary of the red tails

(24:58):
and little skies in a way that'salmost a bit of a cringe.
But I guess I did try to illustrate another one both
ways. Some people were really happy to
see them, like you said. I do think it's quite good that
when they interact with our heroes, the guys we've been
following, Clever and Brady Murphy and the rest, they aren't

(25:18):
all like, hey, this is absolutely 100% something
positive. Sorry.
We do get to see those boys showsome reticence, some disgust,
like they allow to be racist, which I think is a good thing
for them to be showing that eventhough these are all good guys,
they are still racist. I think I've put it in a note
coming up and it says they are not not racist.

(25:42):
They are not not racist. And the interesting one on that
is Jonas Moore, I remember from the last week Happy Few tour at
South Abbotts, said that that was an important moment to show,
but he really wishes that Murphywasn't one of the ones to show
it. Because actually, from what he
knew of Murphy, he actually was one of the people who wouldn't
be holding these views because he actually had interacted with

(26:04):
a diverse group of people throughout his life as a
musician and so on. So he was like, that didn't feel
right, but he did it anyway. I just remember Matthew just
ribbing on him too. You'll look pretty Richard
though, Jonas, he did. So after a moment, we get to
follow Crosby around. He's doing all the mission
planning leading up to D-Day, and he's doing it with the help

(26:27):
of some upper, some medication basically, and he's been up for
72 hours. Starts always see him get slowly
more tired and deranged and eventually he just scrungs hard.
He just drops to the floor and he misses D-Day completely.
Yeah, I guess this is what happens when you give one guy
200 missions to plan a guy who doesn't want to delegate because

(26:49):
he doesn't trust anyone else to get it as right as he would get
it. I think the acting by Anthony
Boyle and this is fantastic. It's so good.
Like, I don't think anybody elsecould have done it this well.
There's a really sweet moment where Rosie's telling him how
long he slept and he starts like, frantically pulling on his
clothes and you can just see Rosie giggling.
And it's just just a sweet little light moment of, you

(27:12):
know, it's everything is terrible around them, but it's
just a sweet little light momentof two friends.
And in that moment, they just Rosie is just a boy who's
laughing at his bestie. I love it.
He's been asleep for three days or something ridiculous like
that. Yeah, I actually quite like the
decision to not show us D-Day there, because it is so much

(27:32):
from Cross's POV that us not being able to see it gives us
the same frustration of Crosby being like, I fucking missed the
whole thing. I love that.
Yeah, I didn't mind it either. I thought it was, you know, of
all the things they left out, I didn't think that one was a bad
choice. Right.
We. Seen D-Day in so many other
films too. I mean, it's been portrayed so
many times. Although to be fair, I'm not

(27:54):
from the air. I don't think we do get to see
them, as Rosie tells Crosby. Have a few sorties over the
North Sea and it looks beautiful.
Apparently the sun is on the wrong side in the show.
I don't know, but one of the like, CGI guys said it was that.
I don't know, just those kind ofthings.

(28:14):
I don't care. Yeah, but they're walking the
wrong way in The Sound of Music,like back in, back into
Japanese, so. Perhaps a more egregious fan.
So the 100th gets a new commander who is like, yeah, you
know, all those changes Bennett made, we're keeping them.
Rosie gets to show off some leadership skills.
Meanwhile, Crosby's desperately trying to get a hold of Sandra,

(28:34):
but she's on a mission in France.
And we get to see her do a little bit of spy shit.
And eventually she, quote, UN quote, invites him to a hotel
room. But when he gets there, there's
just like, a letter from her being, like, we had a great
time, but you should go back to your wife.
Yeah. And I think in real life, they'd
sent Crosby home on a month longleave because some people, when

(28:56):
they get stressed out, behave a little bit like assholes.
And I think that's a little bit what was happening.
And when he got home from his month leave with his wife, the
way he tells it is that he had rediscovered his feelings for
Gene, and he was no longer interested in spending time with
Sandra. So he broke things off,
supposedly. I do like that they kind of give
Sandra the power here to let herbreak it off.

(29:18):
I think that's quite nice. I do have some feelings about
her whole spy plot. I don't think it's super
necessary to show that because it doesn't go anywhere.
I think that's one of the ones where if they'd gotten 11
episodes, maybe we would have actually gotten like a
satisfying ending on it. Right.
It doesn't really have any stakes in the current form, I
don't think. But I guess they also just

(29:40):
didn't want to make her just to disappear, just off screen exit
kind of thing, even though the store gets an off stage accent
right now. But you get a sense of what
she's been doing that she's not been able to talk Cross about,
so maybe that's why. It's nice that we get to see her
do some spy and stuff, but it would also be free being really

(30:00):
nice to have her just implied itthe whole way through and then
we never actually get that closure.
Like. Cross doesn't, right, Like Cross
doesn't, but yeah, it but it's atough one because like, but
there needs to be more women in this.
There needs to be more women. I know and I really like Sandra
as a character as well. Like if anything I think that
they should have got rid of someother stuff and given her an
actual send off for sure. In Star like left three, Ducky

(30:24):
is anti and spiraling and foot we kind of see him struggle with
me and cooked up and having no one to write to and nobody
become waiting for him. They all get word that the
Allies have landed in Normandy because they've made a radio.
But at this point of engineering, which is quite
cool, and we skipped forward twomonths and they realized that

(30:46):
they have to start preparing because the Germans might March
them out of the camp and deeper into Bavaria before the Soviets
can actually liberate them. So they have to prepare for
either 4th March executions is what they're mentioning.
And there's a third thing that Inow can't remember, but there's
three things that they're preparing for.

(31:07):
And I don't know how I feel about the scenes, you know, and
I can't at this point. I don't think they're super
necessary. At least these aren't like, they
don't really bring anything to it for me.
But I guess you have to fill your episodes.
Yeah, I mean, we get a lot of this stuff, but we never find
out what happens to Sandra, so. Yeah.
And then so the we see the Tuskegee Airmen arrive at the

(31:27):
Style Egg. They end up in the same little
cabin as Buck and Bucky and the other guys from the 100th and
Jefferson and Buck end up havinga little chat and Buck is
planning on using Alex's map drawing skills for their escape
plan. In Alex Jefferson's memoir, he
talks about how in real life they all came into the camp.

(31:48):
There's a huge group of them andthen the quote UN quote leader
of each cabin got to choose who was going to go sleep in his
cabin. And Alex Jefferson got picked
first, which shocked him becausehe's like, there's no way this,
like, Southern white boy is going to pick me.
And then as soon as he gets intothe cabin, they're all like,
yeah, we chose you because we knew you couldn't be a spy.
So, you know, a little bit of, of truth to that.

(32:11):
When it gets said in the show, when Buck says that he knows he
couldn't have been a spy, it's just funny because it's like,
wow. Alexander Jefferson got home
from the war. And the first thing that
happened when he got to the bottom of the gangplank when he
was disembarking in New York wasthat a white officer said whites
to the left, blacks to the right, except he didn't use the
word blacks. And that was when Alex Jefferson
realized that he had been treated better by the Germans in

(32:32):
captivity than he had ever been by fellow Americans.
Just interesting that the Americans are so convinced that
the Germans would be completely unable to recruit, you know, a
black man to be a spy for them. It's kind of shitty, isn't it
too, that the German interrogator turned out to be
right? Like oh man, that's so rough.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of soul searching that quite a few

(32:54):
of these movies and things need to be doing because I've just
recently been reading a book about Japanese Americans who
fought in the war as well and their treatment by the
Americans. And yeah, I don't think that
history is explored enough. When Richard Macon's being
interrogated by the Germans and they're talking about how shitty
America is toward black people, and he's like, do you know any
country that's better? And it's like, my guy, so many

(33:17):
countries would be better. So many countries don't have
institutionalized segregation. There was an interesting one I
was reading a diary of some woman who was embarrassing
Edmunds, I think, as some excerpts, and she was appalled
at the way the Americans treatedtheir own servicemen, their own
black servicemen, even though, you know, in other areas of her

(33:37):
diary she was quite clearly something of a racist herself.
But she could not get over how appallingly that they were
treated, which I think is a really interesting commentary.
Yeah, well, Jefferson also says in his memoir that he did
encounter the odd racist Italianbecause they were stationed in
Italy, but when he would get to talking to them, he would find
out that they had been told a bunch of racist shit about black

(33:59):
people by white American servicemen.
I hate people, man. I'm just going to end our
episode with the fact that I hate people.
In episode 9, we open in the skies over Berlin on February

(34:19):
3rd, 1945. So we're well into nearly the
end of the war by now, and you guys get to take a drink because
Cross says the word Masters of the air.
Because they were masters of theair.
Hey. Even though they are masters of
the air, like they don't really get resistance from the

(34:40):
liftoffer. Rosie's foot is shot down and
hit, but he manages to make it to the Russian lines.
Kind of. He's in between the German and
the Russian lines. So he's not picked up by
Germans, but by subjects instead.
And he makes it a point to let them know that he's American by
saying Coca. Cola I when I read this in
Masters, I was like, they're notgoing to include this because it

(35:02):
is so ludicrous. Like that can't be real.
And they did. I was so happy.
I was waiting for it. It just sounds like right
American. Yeah, it's Coca-Cola.
It made me think of that scene in Saving Private Ryan where the
guy's trying to put up the whiteflag and implied he's friendly
to Americans and he's like BettyBoop, Mickey Mouse.

(35:24):
Once the Soviets help him, he's taken to Poland and we meet him
again on the road to Poznan, where they have to pause because
the card up in front of the lineis missing every or something.
And they have to stop. And they stop at an abandoned
camp and it's already abandoned.But he goes in there and it's

(35:47):
one of the most got mentioned scenes.
I think of the shower, especially for Rosie.
We get to see him, a Jewish person, walking there and see
all the burnt and hanged bodies.It's probably the most direct
mention of the Holocaust we get.And to get it through his eyes,
I think it's quite a smart choice.
At Stalaglif 3, at this point, the Russians are closing in on

(36:10):
one side and the Americans are closing in on the other, and so
the Germans are marching the airmen deeper into German
territory. As the Allies get closer, they
are being marched miles and miles every night on dark roads.
They're getting strafed by theirown planes in the dark because
the planes don't recognize who'son the road, so they end up
getting put on a train. After that, they pass through

(36:32):
Nuremberg, which is extremely stressful for the one Jewish
airman that we know about, Lieutenant David Solomon, played
by Adam Silver. And they get marched to a new
camp and they're Buck reunites with a friend of his named
George Neathammer, played by Josh Dillon, which will become
important later. When they leave that camp, they
go on another March, and that night Buck and Bucky and George

(36:53):
and another POW make a run for it.
But they get caught and Bucky sort of sacrifices themselves so
that the other guys can get away.
Yeah, all the marching is once again in the episode.
This is episode 9. This is a one hour and 20 minute
long episode and it's very disjointed.
This particular one, it's very long and a lot happened.
So these marches have been over a couple of scenes and I do like

(37:16):
that they've included the marches because they were very
much real and they were in the dead of winter too, so it was
very cold. So it's interesting to see, but
at the same time it's so alive. This is the episode, though, I
think that has my favorite and the bitchiest John Brady moment
of the entire series, which is hambone.
So like eating food desperately before they have to go on the

(37:39):
March and braiding like we'd they told us not to do that.
It's a bad idea. And then later when he's
vomiting, he's like told you so.And to me that just, it makes me
laugh the whole time, like it's a quite a dark episode from
quite a good chunk of that. So I was really grateful for
that little moment being like, oh shit, well done.
I did like that and I do think Brady has this sort of like
brusque vibe, I think. But there's another moment

(38:01):
earlier where like when DeMarco is vomiting up his cat soup
because it grosses him out so much that they're eating cat
Brady's like try and keep it down.
It's protein. So like, even though he's kind
of being an asshole, he also is doing this pilot thing where he
is trying to take care of the other guys in a manner of
speaking. So we followed back and George
and the other escaped airman, whose name I don't know for a

(38:24):
while, and they make it out, They make it to the forest and
they see a White Horse, a white bloodied horse.
And I wondered, what is this horse supposed to mean?
I'm sure it's supposed to have ameaning.
We've seen horses in war films before, quite a lot actually, so
I thought it was worth to mention.
That doesn't really do anything for the plot, but I think it's

(38:45):
meant to imply innocence or freedom or something like that.
Oh my God, what was it? It was on that shitty tank movie
Fury where there was a White Horse and when they asked the
director what symbolism was implied, the answer that he gave
was such like word salad. I'm like, I don't even think you
know what you meant by the way horse.
Yeah, so go listen to our episode about Fury.

(39:06):
It's a very funny episode about a very shitty movie.
So they get to the forest and we've just met him, George, but
he's killed by a literal child, which is kind of just showing
that at this point in the war the Germans recruited children
and elderly quite a lot in theirarmies because there was no one

(39:27):
else left to fight, which is rough.
And Buck gets jumped on by another kid and he has a chance
to kill him and he doesn't, thank God.
But they did just kill his friend and their guns weren't
even loaded. So I find the scene really dark.
Yeah, And actually, there's a scene when all the American
airmen are being marched on the road, and there's this German

(39:48):
convoy passing them going the other way.
And all the members of the convoy have these really young
faces. And one of the German guards
who's been guarding the Americans says something to the
effect of their kids. It's over.
Like he knows looking at this, he's like, oh, they're putting
little kids in the army. Like it's done.
Yeah, we've seen this in other movies too, quite a lot.

(40:09):
And it just makes me think thesekids were like 1415 years old.
I didn't even know how to tie myshoes at 14.
Younger sometimes in our Sonny boy episode they were like 12 or
13. Crazy your brain isn't even
close to being fully developed yet.
You say the scene was incrediblydark and those kids looked so

(40:29):
scared at that moment with GAIL,like hovering.
Does he shoot the child or not? It's such a powerful moment, I
think on both sides because whatis the kid gonna do?
Unlike possibly adults, he doesn't get the scale even of
what he's doing. That's all he can do.
And I think that you can see Buck thinking that through.

(40:50):
I will say nice things are Austin Butler.
I'm so sorry, Sam. I think Austin Butler is not
given the credit he is due for the acting he does that is like
Night Man, quite silent and internal.
Like Buck is a very difficult character because he doesn't do
big outward expressions of emotion, but he has these
internal thoughts and the way hepauses and the way he holds

(41:13):
himself. I think you can see the turmoil
in him. I love that scene.
Yeah, again, I don't hate AustinButler.
I'm. I know I'm giving you a hard
time. I will say something I found out
today about George is that he isburied in American National
Cemetery in Liege, which I know much of you at at earlier this
year. I've been there three times and

(41:35):
I didn't know this. I wish I had known this and I
could have gone and looked in it, although all grades are
quite impressive. Anyway, the next time we see
Duck and the other person are they run into American troops so
they are safe. Yeah.
Meanwhile, Bucky and the remaining airmen who haven't
escaped, they arrive at their final destination, a Stolic in

(41:57):
Mooseburg, Germany. And in this camp, we see quite a
lot of people of different nationalities.
You get like, a tiny, minuscule sense of how vast, I mean, the
British Army and the French Armyand all these armies that had
access to colonial armies would have been.
And the camp gets draped by AP 51.
You know, the Americans are flying overhead.
And the Germans, at this point, it's chaotic.

(42:19):
They're opening fire on the prisoners, and the prisoners
fight back. And Bucky climbs up to the top
of the building where the Germanflag is flying.
And he takes it down and puts upan American flag.
And all the Americans are very excited about it.
Yeah, we also get another surrender scene.
We get to see the Germans surrender to the Americans.
I don't know what the commander they're surrendering to you

(42:42):
because it's not quite clear from the episode, but I'm sure
someone will know so please let us know in the comments.
So meanwhile, Ethereal Bubbits Cross is still there and people
are still flying, so he has to lay down alone with the guy who
forgot to open up the equipment Hut, which means that people
don't get any parachutes. So he gets really mad and he

(43:04):
slams his person to his broadcast, which I quite a lot.
Yes. See also why he was sent on
because he was kind of acting like a Dick because he was very
stressed out at this point in the war.
Rosie makes it back home from his adventure, being shot down
and being picked up by the Russians.
He and cries have a deep conversation.
I feel like one of the few timeswhere they actually sort of get

(43:26):
anywhere near touching on this topic.
But there's this Nietzsche quote.
Whoever fights monsters should take care not to become a
monster himself. Because if you gaze into the
abyss, the abyss gazes back intoyou.
This is one of my favorite scenes.
Like, emotionally, this is really well acted by both of
them. Cross is the one dating who he
has become. And Roddy feels goes home.

(43:47):
And it's not the same. And he's a different man and he
feels really bad. And Rosie gets to talk him out
of it. And I quite like that they've
included this. Buck also makes it back to
Thorpe. Like everybody gets back home.
Yeah. Where the USA for us is helping
for reflect truth. Which means they are hoping that

(44:08):
the Germans won't shoot flak at them so they can drop food over
a very starving Holland or the Netherlands if you will.
And what follows is Operation Jihad, Rosie Buchan Cross and
even Kenny Lemons get to fly anddrop food over my little
country. And the RAF also had a version

(44:29):
of this mission called OperationMana.
And on the way back we hear Becky on the radio.
So Becky is back home too. Yay, George, do you want to say
anything about Ken Lemons flyinga plane?
I like the scene. I feel like, if I recall
correctly, it's not quite true that 10 lemons particularly had
never flown before. But it's a fantastic scene and
it's always nice to see Rafflaw just in general.

(44:51):
I think to be honest, it's a very funny scene.
It's very sweet scene as well tohave like everybody back
together. So it's like representatives of
different groups. So you've got 10 from the ground
crew. You've got Dougie is there, so
you know, Clevon and Rosie. Like it's like everybody's
coming together again across. Ross gets to drop a little
orange over the balance. He's very happy to be dropping

(45:13):
some oranges. If I recall correctly from
reading some accounts, particularly at Thorpe, Abbott's
and other places that we were visiting, a lot of the guys
found a lot of classes in being able to go on such that whole
submission of like humanitarian aid after having spent so much
of their time bombing. And so I think it's just, it's
really important to include the scene, not because it's a a look

(45:35):
at how great the Americans are, but look how healing this is for
these men. And that's the other reason why
I think it's fantastic Ken Lemons is that is that he gets
to be part of that. Yeah, I've put a tiny little
note about Operation John on theAmerican side.
Tim Bomber groups of the US Third Air Division two 23168

(45:58):
sorties beginning May 1st and delivering a total of 4000 tons
of food, 400D17 and they dropped800 tons of gay Russians during
the 1st to the 3rd of May. And the drop zone for that is
Amsterdam's people airport. And you can actually see in the
show you see in one of the fields, it says Many thanks

(46:23):
Yanks. And there's actually a photo of
that happening in real life. So that's not made-up.
It sounds really made-up, but it's real.
Yeah. And then the war is over and
everyone's sort of packing up togo home.
And I really liked the bit wherethey showed the planes flying
away. And like, all the little kids
that had been hero worshipping the airmen the whole war are

(46:45):
watching the planes fly away forthe last time.
And the locals, they've all turned out to say goodbye to
their American airmen. And then they're watching the
planes fly away and they're turning around to walk back to
their homes. And there is like something a
little bit, I don't know, sort of nostalgic.
And I liked the way that they presented that, I guess I'll
say. On that note, of the little

(47:07):
kids, we mentioned last episode in the recording thing about the
kid who was at one of the airfields who interacted with a
lot of the Americans, called Clifford Hall.
I don't know if we named him, but actually I think it was a
few days after we recorded that episode, we found out that Cliff
had passed away at the age of 93.
So I just wanted one, to mentionthat and two, to say that he

(47:28):
does have a book called The Memories of Ruffin Airfield,
which is really worth reading ifyou can get a hold of it.
I don't think there are that many copies in circulation, but
I'm hoping that they will reprint because it's a really
wonderful look at the point of view of a child interacting with
these airmen. Yes, he died the day after he
recorded, in fact. Quite strange but he was really

(47:49):
generation sharing his memories with us.
To me, these people on these kids have been on these
airfields for 2-3 years and their lives were completely all
they had were those airfields atthose times.
So it must be really strange to have them all leave and I'm
guessing many of them didn't seethem at them for a very long

(48:12):
time if at all. So can't even imagine what
that's like. So at the very end of the show
we get a whole lot of hand cards.
They are very large, but it's quite nice to see where
everybody ended up, even though some of them are kind of
incomplete, I want to say. So Harry Crosby left the Air
Force in 1945 as a Lieutenant Colonel and returned to Gene and

(48:36):
their son Steve. He received a PhD in literature
from Stanford University in 1953.
After teaching at the Universityof Iowa for several years, he
and Gene moved to Massachusetts with their four children.
Crosby taught at Boston and Harvard universities for more
than 30 years. Harry and Gene served as Co
presidents of the PTA at every school their children attended.

(48:57):
Harry Crosby's memoir about his experiences during World War 2
was published in 1993, which we have referenced pretty
extensively throughout these episodes.
Harry was 91 when he passed awayin 2010.
And one thing I do kind of wish that they had included was that
during the Vietnam War, Professor Harry Crosby was very
anti war and he was known for investing his time in anti war

(49:19):
causes. It's very telling of what war
does to you as a person and I agree it would have been nice
for them to have included that. Just a little critical and
narrowed on the war too. Well, yeah.
And especially, you know, he wasteaching kids who were going off
to Vietnam, right? You were part of one generation
that went to war and now you're seeing it from the perspective

(49:40):
that your parents saw it from, that all these 1920 year old
kids are being sent away to be slaughtered in the jungle.
Alexander Jefferson remained on active duty with the Air Force
until December 1947 when he joined the Air Force Reserve.
The same year, he moved back to Detroit with his wife Adela and
became a science teacher. He taught in the Detroit Public
School system for over 30 years.Jefferson retired from the Air

(50:03):
Force Reserve as a Lieutenant Colonel.
He was a founding member of boththe Detroit and National
chapters of the Tuskegee Airmen.Alexander Jefferson passed away
in June 2022. He was 100 years old.
That's very old. They make a brunch in the show
where they express annoyance that none of them have been
promoted. A former Lieutenant at this

(50:25):
point. It should have been majors and
all that sort of stuff, and I'm glad he got to retire as a
Lieutenant Colonel, but it wouldhave been nice if they'd been
given that rank during the war, or at least a higher rent on my
head. Richard Macon was promoted to
captain following his liberationfrom Mooseburg.
He left the Air Force in December 1945.

(50:45):
Macon established a flight school when he returned to
Birmingham, AL. And there's actually a super
interesting story because HowardHughes, the eccentric multi
millionaire, owned all of the, like, airport there.
And so Macon had like a personalmeeting with Howard Hughes to
ask him if he could run his flight school out of part of the
airport. And Howard Hughes said yes.

(51:06):
And so Macon made this comment about how black people were not
allowed to fly from the airport.But in his little section of it,
he was allowed to run his flightschools.
So I thought that was super interesting.
And after earning a master's degree in mathematics at Indiana
University, he returned to Alabama to work at Miles
College. In 1955, Macon joined his friend
Alexander Jefferson in Detroit and began his career as a public

(51:29):
school teacher. Richard Macon and Alexander
Jefferson remained friends untilMacon died in 2007 at the age of
86. Captain retired Richard Macon is
buried in Arlington National Cemetery.
That's a cool story. The huge story.
I would never is that in November.
No, I just read it online somewhere.
Robert Rosie Rosenthal was training to pilot B20 Nines in

(51:51):
the Pacific when the Japanese surrendered in August of 1945.
After the war, Rosie helped prosecute Nazi war criminals at
the Nuremberg trials. He interrogated leading figures
in the German military high command, including Field
Marshall Hermann Goering, the head of the Luftwaffe.
On his way to Nuremberg, Rosie met Phyllis Heller, A fellow
prosecutor. They were married less than two
weeks later. They had three children.

(52:12):
For his service, Robert Rosenthal was awarded 2 Silver
Stars, 2 Distinguished Flying Crosses, 2 Purple Hearts, a
British Distinguished Flying Cross and the Croix de Gadd from
France. The 52 missions he flew during
the war were the most flown by any member of the 100th Bomb
Group. Rosie died in 2007.
He was 89 years old. Here's a quick fun fact about
Phyllis. When she and Rosie got together

(52:34):
and they were thinking about getting married, she said, OK,
but you have to ask my father. And I was just like, oh, she's
traditional. That's nice.
So they did. And her father's like, no,
absolutely not. You're too young and you haven't
thought this through. And Rosa's like, oh, God, that's
it, That's it. And for this is like, well, no,
we asked him, let's go, let's get married.

(52:54):
I love Phyllis. Reminds me a little bit of Fila
Taba who also got married after like 4 weeks of knowing her
husband. And who also asked her dad, and
he was not enamored of the idea.And there was a good little note
from you, George, the fact that Rosie's grandson, Sam Rosenthal,
has a small cameo in North as well.

(53:15):
He plays Arthur L Jacobson and he's, I think he's a gunner or
something in the show, which is quite nice.
You got to see his face. Well, back to our novel length
and cards. GAIL Buck Clevin remained in the
Air Force and served in both theKorean and Vietnam Wars.
He retired a full Colonel. Clevin earned both an MBA from
Harvard and APHD from GeorgetownUniversity.

(53:37):
Buck married Marjorie Spencer within a month of returning to
the United States after the war.John Egan was his best man.
Marge died unexpectedly in 1953.She had been married to GAIL for
eight years. Her photograph was still on his
mantle 53 years later when he passed away at the age of 87.
I am going to jump in here and say that if I was GAIL Clevins
second wife who he was with for 50 years, I would be really

(54:00):
upset that I was not mentioned in this card.
So Esther, Esther Lee, I think, I think that was his second
wife. They were married for half a
century and mostly I did not think that was an important fact
to put in at all. Because in favor of this
sweetheart storyline, which is lovely but kind of rude.
I don't understand. It's one line and you've already

(54:21):
written a novel. Just put it in there.
Just put it in there. Right.
And I think that it can have a more like, I don't know, it's
one of the resistance fighters we talked about.
And in the movie, his wife dies,and they make it a whole thing
where it's like, oh, well, he wrote this beautiful poem about
her and, like, she was the love of his life and whatever.
And in real life, he actually remarried and then wrote a bunch

(54:44):
of beautiful poetry about havinga second chance at love and
opening his heart up again and whatever.
And I do think that they could have had this hopeful note here
of being, like, the love of his life died, but then he met
someone new who also, you know, they had a lovely, happy,
extraordinary, long marriage together.
Yeah. And John Bucky Egan Last but not

(55:04):
least, he stayed in the Air Force after the war.
When evening after returning to Manitowoc, he ran into a high
school acquaintance, Josephine Pitts, who was also still in
uniform as a WASP Women Air Force service pilot.
They were married a few months later.
Colonel Egan flew combat missions during the Korean War.
He eventually became Director ofAir Force Operations for the
entire Pacific area. He was working at the Pentagon

(55:26):
when he died of a heart attack in 1961.
He was 45 years old. Josephine passed away in 2006.
They are buried together at Arlington National Cemetery.
This makes me so sad when these guys end up dying quite young
after living through the war. I mean, it can happen to
anybody, I guess, catching a heart attack, but it just feels
extra sad after you've been through such an ordeal.

(55:57):
I guess we finally made it to the end of these end cards that
last forever. But we do still have to read the
entire series, guys. OK, so let's read the show.
However many buck naked mirror monologues out of 10.
I'll start. I'm gonna read it $8 naked
mirror monologues out of 10. I quite enjoyed the show.

(56:18):
I think if I had to read it the first time I watched it, I
wouldn't have rated it quite so high.
Right now I quite enjoy it, so I'm giving it a night.
I think they did a great job with the episodes that they've
got. I'm happy they included lots of
stuff, so it's good. The music's great, the acting's
good. I'm happy.
How about you, George? I mean, yeah, I I really enjoy

(56:41):
it. I think I will rate it as 7
Buckneck and mirror monologues out of 10.
I appreciate that they were under a great deal of
constraints. They were filming it at a
incredibly difficult time. I just feel like some of the
choices of what to cut and whereto cut it was clumsy to me and
it almost heightened the fact like that.
Here's a big sign pointing to the fact that there is missing

(57:02):
material here, whereas I think that could have been more
streamlined and it wouldn't havefelt so glaring.
And I do like it. And the acting, as you say, is
phenomenal. Visually it's absolutely
stunning. I will give it 6 1/2 buck naked
mirror monologues out of 10. You know, I think that in the 25
since band of brothers was made,Hanks and Spielberg really had

(57:23):
an opportunity to make a World War 2 show that's perhaps a bit
more nuanced and less rah rah America and does delve a little
bit more into the morality of the quote UN quote strategic
bombing that they were doing, which quite a number of the
guys, including Harry Crosby reference later after the war of

(57:43):
something that they did wrestle with.
And, you know, I thought that tohave the Tuskegee Airmen and
talk about how how great Americawas, like that kind of clanked
for me that Little Richard Macon.
Yeah, there are a few parts likethat where I really thought that
they could have actually made something that was nuanced and
did touch on those themes. And they totally missed the

(58:04):
opportunity. And they just kind of went back
and did a retread of this sort of themes that they have talked
about before. And I think that, like you said,
George, there are a lot of kind of false starts in this where
things were promising and then they just didn't get the chance
to wrap it up maybe the way thatthey could have or should have.
And I'm also sympathetic to the idea that COVID happened and

(58:26):
they didn't get their 11 episodes and they only got 9 and
they had to, you know, make do. But yeah, there are so many bits
and pieces of this where I'm like, I would have been nice to
see more of this or more of that.
I do think the the acting is quite good.
I don't think there's anyone whoclanks on the ensemble.
And I have come around on the theme song, though initially I
was a bit of a hater towards it.And I do think that the combat

(58:48):
scenes are as good as they can be for the fact that really you
have to do CGI. Like, at this point, you're not
going to wrestle up 100-B17 bombers from anywhere to fly at
this point. So yeah, I have seen it a couple
of times. And I usually find something
every time in my watching experience where I'm like, oh,
that is kind of fun, actually. But I think it's not my favorite
of the three HBO war offerings, we'll say.

(59:11):
I think I've rated the other twolike nons and tons so I think
I'm also have the same mind thatit's not my faith but I still
really enjoy it so. Did we not talk about this and
one of the other episodes that Ithink we all rate the Pacific or
is it much or you don't rate thePacific as the highest one?
I know that I do IF. I, I think we haven't explicitly

(59:32):
said, but I think it's true for all of us that we all prefer the
Pacific. This one could have been so much
better if they had been a littlebit more progressive with it and
taken a couple of more risks, I think.
I think 1. Of the risks is actually, as I
sort of mentioned before, if they had switched wholeheartedly
from the Bucklevan, John Egan's storyline into sort of the Harry

(59:56):
Crosby, Rosie Rosenthal one, we might have had some time for a
more interested, nuanced discussion of the way that
attitudes changed, the way that how they were doing things
changed. And that would have been a nice
space for me, I think. Yeah.
I do think perhaps too, that unfortunately, by the time this
show was made, the veterans weregone.

(01:00:17):
You know, at this point, we're 80 years after the end of World
War 2. Sometimes you can tell these
people that are gone now that wecan't talk to.
I think that there's sometimes this idea of wanting to present
them as war heroes, perhaps in away that they maybe didn't
necessarily even see themselves.And the nostalgia for World War

(01:00:38):
2 and for this lost generation and for our dads and
grandfathers that we did venerate and love and care for
very much and we did perceive asthese war heroes.
And the fact that the guys are gone and they can't speak for
themselves. You experience that loss in
Masters of the Year. Yep.
Oh, what are we reading, George?You want to go first.
Oh my God, I actually am not reading anything specific at

(01:01:01):
this moment because I finished everything that I was reading.
I have just picked up a book arrived at my doorstep today,
which is an account of a fellow who moved through the SAS and
the SBS and the Special Boat Service.
And it's just a memoir for his time in the war that I'm really
looking forward to getting into because he is not one of the
ones who is mentioned in SAS Rd.Heroes as many of them one, they

(01:01:23):
focus on a very small group of men.
So it's very nice to actually read about the experiences of
people who are not now getting the accolades.
And the I saw a newspaper article who about a guy who
wants Bill Fraser from the SES to get a plaque in Leamington
Spa. And like, that's very nice and
that's wonderful for that. He should absolutely do that.
But presumably it's because thisguy has figured out who he is

(01:01:44):
via the show. There are a lot of guys who will
not have that recognition. Here, here, can I just say
perfectly on brand for you once again, I'm.
Always on brand. How about you, Sam?
What have you been reading? Well, I read a few things while
I was on holidays, but right nowI've just started Their Finest
Hour and a Half by Alyssa Evans,and that might be a clue as to

(01:02:07):
what we might cover in a few weeks on this podcast.
I might not be doing any readingat all if all of my time is
taken up with a new kitten. New kitten.
You can read to the kitten. I can read to the kitten.
All right, Well, thank you firstof all, George for joining us
for yet another episode of Rosie.
It's been a real blessed having you on for three in a row.

(01:02:28):
Thanks for that. Thanks for having me.
I love coming on Rosie and it's actually nice despite the fact I
only apparently read about the SAS.
It's like nice to come and talk about something that isn't
related to the SAS. So I think with that said, I'm
going to close out this episode.Thank you very much.
Last name. You can follow us wherever you
get your podcast, like Spotify or Apple or somewhere else.

(01:02:51):
You can rate US five stars. You can send this episode and
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Bye.