October 17, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode of Rosie the Reviewer, we’re joined by journalist and author Tony Rushmer, whose book SAS: Duty Before Glory tells the story of Reg Seekings, one of the original members of the Special Air Service. Tony talks to us about how a documentary during lock down led him from sports journalism to writing about this WWII history that started in the Fens.
Alongside our returning guest George, we take a closer look at Reg Seekings: his humour, his friendship with Johnny Cooper, and his stoic yet warm nature.
Tony shares how he came to know the Seekings family, his conversations with the late Mike Sadler, and the rich archival work and Reg's personal recollections that shaped his writing. We also touch on the portrayal of the SAS in Rogue Heroes and how storytelling, fictional or not, keeps history alive for new generations.
We're also happy to report that Tony recommends five excellent books on WWII at the very end, so stick around to find out.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Rosie the Reviewer. We're your host.
I'm Sam. And I'm Mark June.
And we like World War 2 media and we want to talk about it.
Welcome back to Rosie the Reviewer.
This week we have an interview with Tony Rushmer.
He's a journalist who has written a couple of biographical
(00:22):
books, including SAS Duty BeforeGlory, the true World War
two-story of SAS original Reg seekings, which came out in 2024
and is available wherever you buy books.
You will have heard us talk about Reg seekings before on our
SAS Rogue Heroes episodes, so gogive those a listen.
Reg was an NCO in the British Army during World War 2 and a
(00:42):
founding member of the Special Air Service SAS serving in North
Africa, Italy and Northwestern Europe.
So welcome, Tony. Thanks for having me.
We are also joined today by our indispensable guest, SAS Rogue
Heroes correspondent, George. So welcome back, George.
Thanks guys. All right, so we'll dive right
(01:08):
in. We have some sort of general
writing related questions. You've spent a long time
predominantly in sports journalism and your other
biography is about racehorse trainer Henry Cecil.
So what brought you to historical non fiction and Reg
seekings in particular? Yeah, it's an interesting
question in that, you know, 5 or6 years ago, if you'd said to
me, oh, your next book is going to be about World War 2 and
(01:31):
about Special Forces, I would have looked at you as if you'd
got through your heads simply because it had not been an area
I'd ever explored before and couldn't ever imagine writing
about. But during lockdown, for all of
us, you know, everything just felt different, looked
different, and we were kind of trying to fill the time and
space. So one day when I was sort of
channel hopping and what looked like an interesting documentary
(01:54):
and it soon became apparent to me that it was featuring Archive
interviews with the original members of the Special Air
Service. And obviously, you know, I think
Sterling was on there, a Johnny Cooper, Pat Riley.
So there was a really interesting selection of archive
interviewees, but one stood out.And I kind of thought, well,
(02:16):
that accent sounds mildly familiar.
And I thought, well, he actually, and also his his
words, his perspectives were kind of vivid and compelling.
And so, you know, like we all do, I sat there on the sofa and
reached for Google and I just couldn't believe it when I found
out that this character, who of course was Reg Seekings, hailed
from no more than two or three miles from where I was sat
(02:39):
watching this program. And that really was the start of
the journey. I thought, gosh, I need to find
out more. Obviously it was Ben Mcintyre's
documentary that I was watching on BBC.
So I ordered his book, read it, and then couldn't put wartime
SAS stories down red and red. And then the following year the
bypass bridge outside our small city in the Fens was named
(03:02):
Seeking's Way. And that was like a sign.
I was like, gosh, I've been reading about all this guy and
now there's a bypass bridge that's been named after him.
So I thought, I want to write about him.
And I managed to make contact with his family and also through
a very well connected ex Parachute Regiment NCOI was
(03:22):
introduced to the SAS RegimentalAssociation. 1 introduction led
to another and I was up and running, you know, I was, I was
up and away. And so from writing about
football, horse racing and golf,I was suddenly entering a whole
new realm and that actually feltreally exciting.
Yeah, I'm curious, what was it like working with the Seekings
(03:43):
family? Probably the very first
interview that I did to researchthe book was with the three
nephews of Reg C Kings who happened to be the three three
sons of his brother Bob. Bob also serves in Special
Forces Cambridgeshire Regiment 7Commando, albeit he joined the
SAS later than Reg. And so I went to one of the Bob
(04:08):
seeking sons house. We sat there all day 4-5 hours
just talking about the two men and their respective wards and
also one of Bob seeking sons pointed me in the direction of
Eric Musk who hails from the next door town to where we are
so and he also had been on the same journey as Reg Bob and gone
(04:34):
through Cambridge's 7 Commando and STS.
So I extended my story to including Eric Musk as these
three Fenland figures. The came out of the well, in the
case of the brothers, they came out of the fields, Eric Muskin.
And so that that was the start of it really.
And the Siekings and the Musk's were incredibly supportive and
(04:56):
incredibly knowledgeable. Not only Bob Sieking's middle
son, Kerry Siekings served for many years in the Parachute
Regiment. So his military knowledge really
helped get my head round. Process, procedures, just stuff
that I didn't know about, the sort of rookie questions that I
needed answering and help with. So throughout the Sea Kings were
(05:19):
fantastic, as were the Musks, and I'm pleased to say that stay
in contact with both families and they have been happy to the
best of my knowledge with how the book turned out.
That's lovely. There's so many stories about
the SAS. Some of them are contradictory.
There's a few people who were involved who are larger than
life and the way they told stories, you know, got repeated
(05:41):
and passed and that kind of stuff.
How do you go about determining which stories you want to
include and how far can you reconcile these contradictions
or fill in gaps of missing information?
OK, so having been a sports journalist all these years and
sat in football press boxes, if you read my report on a Sunday
morning and you read the guy next to me, his report and his
(06:01):
recollection of events and then the guy at the end of the row,
there'd be 3 pretty similar ish,you know, not entirely the same
pieces of correspondence the following morning.
And that's just because everyone's prism, everyone's
view of what occurs a football match is different, and it's
exactly the same, in my opinion.On the battlefield, everyone has
(06:22):
their own perspective, and that's why accounts can vary.
When it came to telling Reggie'sstory, I was obviously very
lucky to have access to some incredible archive material, the
private sort of notebooks that Reggie wrote in the decade post
war that a private collector kindly allowed me to use.
So when I was writing about these instances that maybe had
(06:47):
more than one men or often did have more than one men involved,
I wrote from the perspective of Reg and what he had seen and
done. So that was kind of always my go
to, Reggie's War, Reggie's prism, and that was kind of how
I viewed it. In the same way that, like I
say, if you're at a football game or at a horse race,
everyone might see it unfolding in a different manner.
(07:08):
So I just went with Reggie's take.
Yeah, Yeah, that makes sense. You spoke quite extensively with
Mike Sadler. He's one of our favorites from
SAS, Rogue Heroes and you even you mentioned in your
acknowledgments that the first call with him was so long that
it required a tea break. So I would just love to hear
your impressions of Mike during that initial conversation and if
you have any favorite anecdotes you could share.
(07:29):
With us. So Mike is absolutely one of my
favourites too. And gosh, what a privilege it
was to get to know Mike in the last couple of years of his
life. I visited him.
I was lucky enough to visit him regularly and have loads of
different conversations with himon all aspects of life.
Mike as a gentleman, well, he was a gentleman firstly, but as
(07:51):
a gentleman he was sharp, humorous, warm hearted,
inquisitive, fun, fun, definitely really fun and
remained curious about everything and anything.
And if people ask me what do youmean by that, I always say that
aged 102, which point Mike was blind, he was inquiring about
(08:11):
the football offside law at the age of 102.
He wanted to know during the World Cup what the football
offside law was all about. So he, you know, he'd managed to
live for 102 years without bothering with it.
But he realized that was something he needed to know as
he was listening to World Cup matches at that time.
So that to me just shows how curious and interested he was in
(08:36):
anything and everything and everyone.
If you were privileged enough tomeet Mike, he would always want
to know about aspects of your life, what you'd been doing, how
your garden looked or all those kind of small scale details.
That it's lovely when people arethat interested in you, isn't
it? It's rare when you find people
(08:57):
in this world. Everyone's obviously busy and
wrapped up their own affairs. Mike always took time to ask how
I was, what I was doing. I loved that about him and so he
like you. He is one of my favourites,
absolutely one of my favourites.And if you said to me, what's
your dream dinner Table 6 guests, Mike Sadler would be
pretty high, if not number one on that list.
(09:18):
Oh my goodness, I guess sometimes you can meet your
heroes. I'll pass you off to George now
for some more specifically Reg related questions so we can do a
little bit of a deep dive on him.
My. First question actually is less
sort of specifically to Reg, butboth you and I are local to Reg
(09:43):
to this area and I sort of feel like it's a really distinct bit
of land. I would really love it if you
could just take a moment to describe for sort of the rosy
listeners what the fence is likeand maybe what sort of Reg's
early life would have been like here in this land.
OK, so Reg. His father had come home from
the Great War. He suffered serious injury, lay
(10:06):
alone in no man's land for threedays.
Third battle of Eep, the legacy for him of the wall was a hole
in his back the size of your fist and he returned from the
Bedfordshire Regiment to work onthe fields like most young men
did in our part of the world. This is still very much an
(10:27):
agricultural area. The Fen fields 100 years ago was
where you were expected in many instances if you were from hail
from this part to go and earn your living and the Fen fields.
So it's it's a relatively flat area area in the winter if the
winds off the northeast, there'snot much between US and Siberia.
(10:48):
So in winter time it can be bitterly cold.
And in the summer, if you're working on those fields, no
trees for cover, no places to hide from the baking sun.
It's it's incredibly harsh environment to work in too.
So I think if you are from this part of the world and you worked
outside, you were hardened by the elements which would enable
(11:11):
you to cope with, let's say, theNorth African desert during the
3840° midday sun and also the freezing cold nights that they
also experienced there. So I think Reg was shaped and
hardened by the environment in which he grew.
The young Reg left school at 14,followed his father onto the
fields but also didn't necessarily accept that as his
(11:36):
lot. He was a good young boxer,
talented young boxer, not necessarily textbook, but he
packed a heavy punch and used tofight all round this part of
East Anglia as a light heavyweight and he had some
success. So he will have been fit, he
will have been tough and you know, he was a strong, brawny,
(11:57):
hard knocking fella. You know, the army when it came,
when the war came, the Cambridgeshire Regiment offered
something different. He was a territorial from early
1939 and won an infantry divisional title as a light
heavyweight. So yeah, he was, he was.
He was a tough person, shaped bythe land and shaped by the
(12:21):
environment from which she came.Does that answer it, George?
That absolutely answers it. I just, I, I love this landscape
and I think it produces some very interesting people.
So I really wanted you to speak on that.
But that leads really nicely into sort of the next question,
which was about sort of what wasit like to sort of step into
Reg's own recollections? And during your research, what
(12:41):
kind of sense of personality of his did you get?
So one of the first things I didwas listen to the Imperial War
Museum's audio reels, which which were recorded in the 80s
and 1980s. Rach recorded them in in later
life. So he'd been mid 60s.
And I was struck by just he, he resonated with me as someone
(13:03):
from this part of the country. I know people like that.
They're not ostentatious, they are wise, they are clever.
They might speak slowly and the odd one of us has a country
twang to our accent, but while we might speak slowly doesn't
necessarily mean we we are necessarily thinking slowly.
(13:24):
And Reg will thought on his feetthroughout his war.
He was very sharp, very decisive.
And that came across in listening to those audio reels
also, he just had, he could remember what happened.
He had an eye for detail. Nothing.
He missed nothing. He missed nothing.
And his sure solid assertions sort of printed themselves
(13:47):
indelibly on my mind to the point that when I was writing
and listening to those audio reels, I could hear him.
I could hear him at night in my mind.
I could hear him speaking. So, yeah, I mean, he did have,
you know, a significant effect on me sort of being up close and
personal. Sort of it was, I like having
him in the living room with you because I think there was 17
(14:08):
audio reels. So that was hour after hour
after hour, not just a 20 minuteinterview or 1/2 hour.
There was hours. And so you got a real sense of
just how Hardy he was and what made him chuckle, what he
thought his moral code was, his values were.
So it was fascinating along withreading those notebooks which
(14:31):
were obviously written just after the war, in the years
after war. So combining reading those
notebooks alongside listening tothe audio reels, I felt I got to
know Reg. Although you can't be sitting in
a room with someone and speakingto really just just look into
their eyes and gain a proper feel.
So I would love to have met him,obviously, of course I would.
(14:51):
But sadly, by the time I startedresearching and writing this, it
was 21 years too late. 22 years too late.
Can I ask a follow up question to that Turner or didn't they
read tackle? That's a good question.
He quite liked if you he was a teaser, I would say.
So if someone you know, if something, if an incident befell
(15:13):
someone you know, a little pieceof bad luck befell someone, I
don't know if like he'd laugh athimself.
So, for instance, I'll give I'llgive this story he they were on
an operation and they were having to duck for cover because
they'd been spotted and Reg was hiding away on the edge of a
cave. And he thought this would be an
(15:33):
appropriate time to change his underwear while they were just
waiting to get on the on the wayagain.
And literally, as he was in the process of changing his
underwear, the return of the Luftwaffe forced him into sort
of an embarrassing situation where he was literally caught
with his pants down while there was, as I say, aircraft in the
(15:54):
vicinity. And recollecting like he didn't
mind laughing at himself like that, and he didn't mind
laughing at others caught in similar situations of peril like
that. He'd find that chuckle worthy.
I love that. Does that Does that answer it?
Certainly does. It's it's it's what I would call
my old Mickey taking he quite like a little bit of that and
(16:16):
wouldn't be averse to a little bit of teasing of something.
But as I say, he's quite happy to, you know, poke fun at
himself if he was caught in a situation such as the one
described. I like that.
Because I think one of the wordsthat we hear about him quite
often is the word stoic. So it's quite nice to hear him
being described as a teaser, I think.
Yeah, I think that's right. I definitely think Reg had a
(16:38):
sense of humor, absolutely had asense of humor.
And I'll not forget that it was Sterling that recorded in an
excellent book written about himby Alan Ho.
And I'll paraphrase something Sterling said, which was that
Johnny Cooper and Reg seemed able to laugh regardless of
circumstance. The two of them enjoyed one
(17:00):
another's company and managed tofind the fun in quite a lot of
situations. That is something that people
didn't recognize. They saw him as rough, tough,
mean and bad. And Reg at times is quite happy
to perpetuate that. But as Sterling said, he, you
know, and Johnny Cooper could laugh regardless of
circumstance. And also talking about others
(17:23):
who judged Reg and his character.
Fraser McCluskey, the Padre viewed Reg and he wrote this in
his book Parachute Padre. Or is it one of his other book?
He viewed Reg as good hearted. So good hearted suggests to me
that he was been a great guy to to have had in your corner, to
have been around, have been a good guy to have had on the
(17:45):
team. You know, he was in, in
Mccluskey's words, good hearted.So those are sides that we don't
always necessarily see when it comes to Reg.
And that's what I hoped to sharein my book.
Yes, there was the gallantry, yes there was the the Brown and
the bravery and the toughness. Undoubtedly we all know that.
(18:05):
But there were many sides to Regseekings.
He was fully rounded. Character.
He had character. Fantastic.
And in fact, you touched on two of the relationships that I
found really moving when you spoke about them in your book.
I mean, one of the chapters first to friends that sort of
deals a lot with his relationship with Johnny Cooper.
And I was just wondering if you wanted to speak a little bit
(18:25):
further on anything you sort of found in their relationship.
They seem to be quite sort of different people when they went
into the war. They're very different people
and background and also personality and Mike Sadler is
explained that to me. You know, he got on very well
with Johnny Cooper, who was quite worldly, had done some
travelling and certainly he was very charming.
(18:47):
Reg, for all his many qualities,wasn't obviously charming to in
my opinion. I'm sure he was given the right
circumstance, but there is no that that's what struck me about
the archive interviews was just how charming Johnny Cooper was
that lightness of touch that he had.
And I'm not sure that Reg had that lightness of touch.
(19:08):
So the two of them were very different characters and that
came to the surface quite early on in their time in the SAS well
known episode where the pair of them almost came to blows in the
final months of 1941. You know, it was only weeks
after that incident where they were on an operation together up
on the Libyan coastline near Certe where they were both in
(19:30):
action together. And it was in those situations
that they realized just how gallant one another was, how
brave they both were and the respect that left in each
other's minds and meant that a firm friendship was forged to
the degree that the pair of themwere respective best men at each
other's weddings. So that will tell you how their
(19:51):
relationship quickly changed andthe respect and they always
knew, but the other was there for them.
And that must have been such a help in those situations.
See, Kings knew that whatever position he was in, if he had
Johnny Cooper with him, that wasfine by him.
That's who he'd want there and vice versa.
It was a really, it's a really good book by Gordon Stevens.
(20:11):
The SAS originals in their own words, both the depth of respect
for one another is evident. And you know, I think.
I think you'd have to look at the book, but Johnny Cooper
said, you know, Seekings had guts and, and, and was there for
him and, and, and Reg was equally complementary in what
what he would always say about Johnny once they've got over
(20:33):
that first initial row in in TheCave or whatever it was that
time in late 1941, they were friends forever.
Yeah, I do remember the in one of the originals Johnny Coopers
book. It's a very memorable
dedication, which is to the originals and especially Rage
seekings. And I think that was one of the
first books about the SES I everread.
And I thought, that's a really beautiful thing.
(20:55):
Says it right there, doesn't it?Says it right there what they
meant to one another. Exactly.
And I think that's sort of a sense that people almost had to
not, I say want to don't want tosay like earn Reg's respect, but
I think he didn't suffer fools. Like if I recall correctly, his
relationship with Fraser McCluskey, there was an element
of he was a little bit scepticalat 1st and after he was wounded
(21:18):
and McCluskey really stepped up and sort of like helping to take
care of him and bond with him, that's when he they really
became close. And so I was wondering if you
could talk about that relationship and what that might
have meant to Reg I'd. Say, that's arguably, you know,
there's lots of things that I really enjoyed about writing the
book, but the chapter I enjoyed most was probably, well, the two
(21:41):
actually. The two in France, where both
McCluskey and Sea Kings were with a squadron Operation
Houndsworth. Reg was shot at the base of his
head, top of his spine in late June in Vermo Valley.
And obviously McCluskey was withthem unarmed, remember, unarmed.
And he tended to Reg in the weekor so following that
(22:07):
eventuality. He's a very wet, soaking wet
week. And Reg doesn't remember much
about it. McCluskey is there for him.
He's there for him. And that initial skepticism,
that initial, why do we need a Padre?
What's what are we got a Parson,You know, on this, you know that
this isn't a situation for a Parson.
Completely changed as he saw what McCluskey did, not just for
(22:29):
him, but for all the men of a squadron.
He was an exceptional figure. Reg would write later on, You
know, he would say actually, that McCluskey offered something
rather wonderful to all those onthat operation and it was just
something to do. We talk about lightness of touch
with Mike Sadler. McCluskey would have been
(22:52):
another one. Their, their, their view.
Well, seekings for you completely changed.
He enjoyed lots of lengthy conversations with McCluskey.
Arthur France was liberated At some point, Seekings and
McCluskey come across a French family and they're called across
into their house and they said, oh, we saved these tea bags for
this very moment when you know when we're free again.
(23:14):
And Seekings and McCluskey go into join French family to
celebrate the fact they're no longer occupied.
And, you know, it's Seekings in McCluskey that sit and enjoy
that moment together with the French family.
And I just found that their relationship showed to me that
Seekings was maturing, was changing.
(23:35):
In the past, he might have not been so open to change or, or
to, to have his opinion altered.He might just have been a black
and white, you know, this is what it looks like.
I'm not changing my mind. But actually, as his experiences
of the war unfolded, he became open to change.
And that would be one instance where he did change his
(23:56):
perspective on on things. And certainly McCluskey, who,
who must have been, you know, another one for my dinner table
guests. Please can I have McCluskey
there? Good choice.
I mean, talking about his experiences to go sort of a
little backwards in time. I think we discussed this, I
believe, with Ben on the podcastbefore.
But if you listen to the interviews with him on the
(24:16):
Imperial War Museum and he when Reg starts speaking about
terminally and his experiences there, you can still see that
the emotion effects him quite a lot.
Did you get a sense that his experiences there in Italy were
carried with him later on? So the archive interview that
captures that television, it's shown on Mcintyre's documentary
(24:39):
and Reg says something along thelines, and again, I'm
paraphrase, terminally was bad, terminally was terrible.
And as he says those words slowly, you can see how it was
one of two things that I think really stayed with him.
OK, so there were two things. I mean, there were lots of
things, obviously, that stayed with him, but two that visibly
(25:00):
affected him or audibly were noticeable and terminally,
undoubtedly where that shell landed smack in that truck on
that side street, taking the lives of men that were more than
just comrades. They were his friends.
This had been a long tour. They'd been in Sicily for Capo
Mura de Porco, Operation Husky. They'd gone into Augusta, also
(25:25):
on Sicily. They'd gone up to Bagnara,
mainland Italy, and then they'vegone into terminally, you know,
these men. He'd trained them.
They were Lieutenant Johnny Wiseman, section, but Reg was
their Sergeant and had been heavily involved in getting
these men battle ready, ready for what they needed to do.
And so to see so many good men, so many excellent men taken out
(25:50):
by that shell strike, I can't. I think it must have deeply
affected Reg. And like I say, when you see
him, when he says those words, terminally was bad.
Terminally was terrible. You know that it flashes through
his mind When when, when he saysthat.
How can it not? Of course, and I think by this
time Bob was also in the SAS of,am I right, he joined by Italy.
(26:12):
And I think it'd be really amissif we didn't ask you about sort
of Bob Seekings and Eric Musk, who obviously feature very
heavily in the book and I think possibly due to not being
featured in Broke Here as the TVseries might be a little lesser
known about. So I was wondering if you could
just sort of talk around who they were and their relationship
to Reg and their careers? Bob C Kings was younger brother,
(26:33):
younger brother of Reg, 2 1/2, three years younger and he was a
very talented runner, talented, loved sports, cricket, went on
later life, loved, loved horse racing and probably a different
cut from a different cloth to Reg.
They weren't they weren't the same in terms of their
temperament, outlook or person. And Eric Musk was older and kind
(26:57):
of took Bob under his wing. They were involved in the
fighting withdrawal on Crete together, saw hand to hand
combat before Reg did because Reg, I was nursing an injury at
that time and missed out on Crete.
And Bob and Eric were left behind in the official
evacuation but managed to get themselves on a landing craft,
(27:20):
you know, somehow after 10 days on a pecan sea, managed to get
behind home lines in Egypt, but they were starving, hungry,
they'd wasted. It was actually reported in the
Cambridgeshire Times, actually their privations, the
difficulties they had. So Eric Musk lost 2 stone on
that those 10 days. And so they had a pretty tough
(27:41):
Crete. They then spent some time in
depot and it was not until 1943 that they were trained
operatives as part of the expansion of the regiment.
By which time the SES had gone from elder attachment to
regiment status and that happened in 1942.
And so they were trained and ready for Operation Husky and
(28:01):
they saw and I think actually they were Reg was Superman,
right? What Reg had was unique,
different. Not many people could be like
Reg seekings. So I think most of us could
relate more to Bob and Eric. Eric was just a, you know, I
said he was a gentleman, but also, you know, he was, he was,
(28:23):
he was a gentleman and a gentleman.
And they he kind of looked afterBob and talking to the Sea Kings
family, there was one specific instance where they were moving
forward on Sicily and they've been held up by an Italian gun
position and using, you know, fire and manoeuvre, they had
each other's backs and advanced and, you know, neutralized that
(28:44):
gun position. And I just thought, gosh, the
faith you must have in one another to move forward
together. And it was on Eric to look after
Bob and on Bob to look after Eric and that their story that
touched me and moved me. And ultimately Reg is an
incredible person. But I could sort of relate more
(29:05):
to Bob and Eric than I then I could Reg, if you know what I
mean. So that is who they were to
incredibly brave and gallant menin their own right.
I think it's a great reminder that there are so many people
whose stories deserve to be told, and we only will ever hear
a fraction of them. Very true.
That's absolutely the case and it's why there are more and more
(29:26):
stories starting to to come out now because relatives stumble
across photographs or old letters and you know, the kind
of reveal, just the level of heroism that was across the
board, not just Reg Seekings, Johnny Cooper, Paddy made and
Co. There were so many that were
like Bob Seekings and like Eric Musk.
Absolutely. So your book covers Regis World
(29:48):
War Two career and touches briefly on his post war career
where after a stint as a Lord ofthe Rifleman's Arms, which sadly
does not exist anymore although my mother remembers the
existing, he ended up as part ofthe police anti terrorist unit
in the British South Africa Police in Rhodesia.
Was it a very deliberate choice to focus closely on his WAR
career? And is there anything you'd like
to discuss about his later career?
(30:08):
Yeah, so just as a quick aside, don't you wish the rifleman's
arms was still open? We could have done this podcast
together from there, couldn't we?
If it was still open, how cool would it have been?
So. So I'm down with you on that.
It'd be the Rifleman's arms. It is a shame.
And I'm. Did you say your your mother's
remembers it or has been in there?
My mother remembers it existing so because I think it ultimately
closed in like the 80s or something like that.
(30:30):
Yeah, I think that's right, 80s,early 90s.
But getting back to your question, so Reg went, he
established the rifleman's arms in the, I think it was 1946, he
and his wife Monica. I imagine after what he had been
through and what he'd seen and done, Ely may have been a bit
sleepy and a bit slow for someone of Reggie's, you know,
(30:50):
what he'd done and experienced, it must have been all a little
bit one paste. So he decided to take himself
off to Southern Rhodesia to fulfill his ambitions to become
a farmer. But it's something that he'd
always wanted to do. He didn't want to be a farm
labourer. He wanted to be the farmer
before the war. And so he finally fulfilled that
ambition as a tobacco farmer andalso a reservist for the British
(31:14):
South Africa Police and the Police Anti Terrorist Unit.
Why did I not cover that more? I think it's because it was
difficult. I think that the lack of
materials, while I did speak to someone, and I've had one or two
people approach me who served under Ridge after the books
published have been in touch. And to say he was an
extraordinary teacher who rarelyspoke about what he'd done, who
(31:37):
he was. He didn't really.
He had to be prized out of him, which shows that he was a sort
of pretty modest, humble person,considering the metal collection
that he could wear on his chest.So, yeah, I think he went there
to be a farmer. But he enjoyed having a
connection with the military andhe enjoyed training, you know,
young officers, which he did during the time of the Bush War.
(31:57):
And I found that I didn't know enough to, to cover that with,
with the benefit of Reggie's audio, I could cover his war and
those notebooks. I could cover the early days of
the SAS and North Africa quite well.
But I felt, and also, I mean, you know, the National Archives
at Q, the documents there are soextensive and exhaustive.
(32:18):
You could sort of plot those. And as a journalist, I wanted it
to be was factually correct as well as, you know, a good strong
page Turner. I wanted it to be factually
correct. And so I could do that with the
materials I had at my disposal. However, I couldn't do that with
the years from the mid 50s to, you know, the early 80s when he
returned. So I thought, well, I'm not
(32:38):
going to guess. I thought it wouldn't be
appropriate and so I didn't. I focused primarily on his early
years, his war years and, you know, a little bit later in
life, people that knew him when he came back to England in the
early 1980s and retired and Suffolk in the home village of
his wife Monica. And so I could get some insights
first hand from people about what the later life Reg was
(33:00):
like. So that's why it made sense to
focus on Reggie's life. Prime 8590% of the book on
finishes in 1945. Makes a lot of sense.
Very good answer. So we've touched on a lot of
different things. There's obviously a lot more in
the book to to learn about. Is there anything that you learn
that either didn't make it in orthat you wish you could have
(33:21):
spent more time with? The only I mean, there's nothing
in the well, I would like to have known more about Reggie's
time in Rhodesia stroke Zimbabwe.
I would like to also know how closely connected he was with
with his old comrades during those years from the mid 50s to
the early 80s. Now he, he did attend events
when he came back and obviously there's quite a famous picture
(33:43):
of him in the mid to late 90s attending the unveiling of Paddy
Main statue in Newton Arts. So we know that he was close
with his pals in later life. But I want to know whether he
kept in touch with those people during the mid 50s through to
the early 80s or whether he justdecided that, hey, I'm setting
up a new life for myself and that's behind me now.
(34:05):
And I'd also like to know Brian Franks was instrumental in
keeping the S AAS alive in the late 1940s.
And I'd like to know if Reg, before he moved away, remains
closely aligned with Franks's continuation of the SAS.
I'd like to know a few things about that.
That's all of my questions. Well done.
He got through me speaking, I think.
(34:26):
Macho, would you like to continue from here on in?
Sure. I will ask you some more, well,
some other questions. I will say we couldn't fit them
into any of the other categories.
So you've written this book. Has it changed your perspective
(34:50):
on military history at all, or interested?
I can't, yeah, I can't explain enough how researching and
writing this book has had a significant impact on how I view
the world and how I view my own profession.
I mean, I previously thought writing about last minute
penalty saves or fantastic golf shots or pulsating finishes to
(35:11):
horse races. I used to think that was
exciting and I used to think that a last minute winner was an
act of heroism. And I've suddenly realized that
the the sports field is a pale shadow of, of what constitutes
gallantry, commitment, determination, teamwork that's
shown on the battlefield. The sports field is a pale
(35:32):
comparison. You know, when you look at what
real courage is and, and what real dedication to those around
you is. So yes, it has had a significant
effect on how I view things. And certainly, as I said to you
when we were talking before we recorded, I, there's always a
World War Two book by my side. Can't get enough of the subject.
(35:53):
I just find it absorbing, fascinating, compelling,
endlessly, you know, interesting.
So yeah, there's a big effect onme.
And has it made you hungry for more, to write more in that
regard? Do you want to write any stories
about the people you've researched or something else?
Yep. So the last year, so the book
(36:13):
came out a year, about a year ago now.
And so over the last 12 months Ihave done lots of talks,
recorded several podcasts, interviews, etcetera to promote
the book. And only last weekend I was
doing a talk in Hereford at the Hereford Military History
Festival, which was a fantastic event, by the way.
I can't tell you how good that inaugural festival festival was
(36:35):
and hope that I'll have a subject good enough, strong
enough to return with in in future renewals of that
festival. And so I've been so busy
promoting it, as well as doing kind of the day job, which is
still sports related, that I've not had time to get my head into
a new project until now. And I'm from mid-october.
I'm about to start research intoanother wartime SAS figure.
(36:59):
I can't say any more at the moment than that, but suffice to
say an equally heroic person, anequally fascinating person.
But don't hold your breath as towhen it's out.
It took me more than two years to write Seeking, so I'm a
notoriously slow grafted trying to get everything down,
everything good, everything meticulously researched.
(37:20):
So you might have me back on thepodcast in about 2 1/2 years
time and I'll tell you all aboutit, if that's all right.
We would not like you back on the podcast.
That sounds good to me. And also two years doesn't sound
like a very long time, at least to me, to write a book.
It's a big project to do. I think that's right.
I think I mean just a general comment about writing a book,
(37:41):
and I would fully recommend the experience to anyone and
everyone if they feel that it's something they're interested in.
It's just a case of showing up when you write a book.
You don't have have to be inspired or particularly blessed
with writing prowess. You just simply need to say, I'm
going to sit at my desk at 9 O clock in the morning just like
you would if you were turning upfor a job.
(38:03):
You have to write the first sentence, put a full stop on it,
and then write the next sentenceand the next sentence and the
next sentence and then turn up next day and do it again.
That's what it requires. It requires determination more
than it does. So perspiration more than
inspiration is the best way of putting it.
Right, so I'm going to make a little bit of a sidestop here to
(38:25):
the BBC series Work Heroes. Obviously there's been some
mixed reviews on that from different angles and I wonder if
I could get your opinion, not onthe show specifically, but how
you feel about fictional portrayals of real life events
and if you have any thoughts or recommendations on that for
(38:46):
future, I guess TV. Before.
Well, I mean, it's I'm probably not the right person to pass
judgement on it really, but whatI can say is in the case of
Rogue Heroes, the first series in particular reached out to my
2 teenage sons and shared a slice of history that otherwise
(39:08):
would have remained unknown to them.
OK, And while as the television show said with its second
series, this is not a history lesson, I think is what it said
or something words to that effect before each episode.
It did take a story, as I say, that may well have been missed
by young people or not acknowledged by certain
(39:29):
generations and has given them an insight into those
characters. And in the case of my sons, they
have retained an interest in a subject that otherwise, as I
say, that might have passed themby.
So did it run and fast and loosewith certain episodes?
Yeah, I think we, I think it's agreed that they've said that
themselves. I didn't particularly watch the
(39:51):
second series, if I, if I'm honest, but the first series I
found entertaining. It brought this story to to to
an audience that otherwise mightsort of certain sections of
audience otherwise might not have, you know, enjoyed it or
seen it or found out about elements of it.
Does that kind of make sense? It's only does.
I think that's generally also our opinion on it.
(40:14):
Even if things are historically not quite overweight accurate,
if they reach new people and make new people interested in
their stories, then it's a good thing.
I would say, and you know, the third series is currently being
is in production, isn't it? So we shall look forward to
seeing that. I would imagine that Rachel be
quite prominent in it given whatoccurred for him in France being
(40:36):
when, you know, he was shot in the mall van.
And so I may watch that and see where the series is at.
Excellent. So I think we've come to maybe
your favorite part of what is this interview is going to be.
Can you recommend us any World War Two books?
Yes. So I've never ever been asked
that question. Some of the questions I've been
asked before from tonight, but you know a lot of them I
(40:58):
haven't. So I'm very grateful for you
guys for providing such a stimulating interview.
But this is my favorite bit. So I could have come to you with
a list of SAS books that you've probably read, seen, or heard
of. So I thought, well, I'm not
going to do that. I am going to come to you with
some different recommendations. And because I'm still learning
so much about what happened in World War 2 and wanting to dive
(41:19):
into new areas, I try and look across the spectrum of subjects.
So this is one I've recently read on the Esso E It's by
Maurice Buckmaster, the true story of SO ES agents in wartime
France, and the book is called They Fought alone.
Buckmaster was the leader of theSO ES French section.
(41:40):
And as the the notes on the backsay, these are his extraordinary
memoirs and they feature just somany fascinating insights.
And you know, there are about four different agents in here
that I'm thinking I'd love to write their biography.
So want to find out more about some of those people that were
involved in in the Soe's activities in wartime France.
(42:03):
So yes, I can't recommend highlyenough.
Maurice Buckmaster. They fought alone.
So that's number one. Number two, it's just the Long
Range Desert Group. Everyone loves the LRDG, don't
they? And this book was incredibly
helpful in giving me an idea about their early days and kind
of those raids that Reg was on and and Sadler was on.
(42:28):
And so this book is called Long Range Desert Group
Reconnaissance and Raiding Behind Enemy Lines.
And it was written by WB KennedyShaw, again a man who was there.
The notes on the back with its brilliant description of the
harsh beauty of the desert and it's exciting chronicle of the
LRD GS activities. This book is as fascinating
today as it was when it was first published in 1945.
(42:51):
So this was a man that was there.
So it says when the war broke out, he used his skills and
knowledge in the LRDG. He later served in the
Intelligence Core and with the SAS reaching the rank of major.
So there you go. So that's a cracking book on the
LRDG. Really.
It's well written and it was written at the time, so it's
absolutely spot on as a recollection.
(43:13):
So I love that. I thought that was really good.
Next one, like I say, I'm still learning all the time.
So A Noble Crusade, the History of 8th Army, 1941 to 1945 by
Richard Doherty. I've just picked that up and
absolutely we're loving that 8thArmy activities at the moment.
I'm I'm deep in North Africa, which is a great place to be and
(43:37):
a great place to just find, you know, coming across characters
like Orkin Lek Montgomery and somany others.
It's a fantastic book and it's currently the one that's by my
bedside, one that I read a long time ago, very early in the
process. And I was recommended it by
someone who's now sadly passed but new Reg in later life.
(43:57):
And he suggested I read To War with Wit, written by Hermione
Ran Ferley, the Countess of Ran Ferley.
She kept a diary of her life during the war.
She wasn't meant to go to war, but she did.
She followed her husband to North Africa and came across a
series of fascinating charactersincluding Seekings.
(44:20):
And as I say, there's, there's. She has a sharp wit, a colourful
way of telling stories and her diary entries are particularly
fascinating coming from, as it says here, a strong and
outspoken woman. You know, he was in some very
interesting places at a fascinating time.
So to war with Whittaker. Hermione ran firly.
And I'll give you one last book.It is an SAS book, really good
(44:43):
book. These men are dangerous.
The Early years of the SAS by Derek Harrison, who of course
was an officer in the SAS and was involved Bob seeking served
under him in Sicily. And so he has, as it says, a
fascinating and vivid account ofhis experiences as a Lieutenant
in the SAS during the early years of the service.
(45:06):
So there is an SAS book for you if there is anyone who wants to
specifically SAS Special Forces focus book.
These men are dangerous, so there are hopefully 5 that you
possibly won't have read or won't have read.
All of that I can say, should keep you going until the new
year. That's excellent.
I just want to say for the sake of our audience that George has
(45:27):
been thieving and pulling books from their bookcase that you've
just mentioned. It's just hilarious.
It's so. Nice.
How tall is that, George? Have you got all five of them?
No, the SAS one I have not read and I haven't read the 8th Army
one either, but the other three I have read.
They are all fantastic, fantastic.
So I'm so happy, especially happy that you mentioned to all
(45:48):
with Whitaker because Hermione Ranfilly, I think is one of the
most fascinating people I've ever read about the war memoir
or her Diaries became a war memoir that I've not read
anything like it. And I know it'd.
Be a good one for our dinner table, wouldn't she?
Let's be honest, she'd be good for the dinner list.
She would be fantastic for the dinner table.
Absolutely get her in there. Cool.
So I guess that kind of leaves us at the end of this interview.
(46:11):
Tony, do you have anything you want to plug?
No, I'm not someone that wants to, you know, just to promote
your podcast really. I hope more power to you.
Well done, all of you for havingsuch a fab podcast series and
taking. And I want to say thank you to
you for taking making an interest in my book so
brilliant. Good on all of you.
More power to you. And do hit me up in 2 years time
(46:33):
when I finally might manage to get another book out there.
Absolutely. Well then we'll just block your
book again. Everybody go return this book.
Yeah, I mean, and if anyone wants personalized copies of the
book, I'm on Instagram. I can't remember my Instagram
handle, I'm afraid. I used to, you know, I used to
use Twitter all the time, but I've become less and less, you
know, I don't use it anymore, really.
(46:54):
I like Insta. It's friendly and more
fascinating so if anyone does want a signed copy of the book
then feel free to message me viainsta and I'll be happy to help
her. Yes please, I will take you in
our purse so people never want to find her.
That's great. And like I say, once again,
thank you for having me as a guest on your fantastic podcast
(47:14):
and really enjoy this chat and hope that you have too because
I've certainly found it different and fun.
And it's been great to meet all of you, albeit I do know George
and do know George's dad from living in and around Ely so.
And George's dad is one of the nicest people that I've know as
one of my sons was taught by himso.
(47:35):
So there we go. By the way, this is what made me
most nervous. This is my nervous.
I've been through an episode. This guy knows my dad.
It's different. Small world.
Thank you so much. It's a really lovely
conversation. I've loved it too.
Thank you so much for listening to Rosie the reviewer.
Oh my God, I didn't think George.
Thank you, George, for being on our podcast again.
(47:56):
I always do that. I just, you're just part of the
furniture now. George, you've been so awesome.
Thank you so much for listening everyone.
You can find us wherever you getyour podcast.
You can rate US five stars. You can send this episode to a
friend, particularly an SAS Rogue Heroes loving friend.
You can visit us on our website,rosathereviewer.com or you can
follow us on Instagram at Rosa the Reviewer Podcast.
See you next week.
Welcome to Rosie the Reviewer. We're your host.
I'm Sam. And I'm Mark June.
And we like World War 2 media and we want to talk about it.
Welcome back to Rosie the Reviewer.
This week we have an interview with Tony Rushmer.
He's a journalist who has written a couple of biographical
(00:22):
books, including SAS Duty BeforeGlory, the true World War
two-story of SAS original Reg seekings, which came out in 2024
and is available wherever you buy books.
You will have heard us talk about Reg seekings before on our
SAS Rogue Heroes episodes, so gogive those a listen.
Reg was an NCO in the British Army during World War 2 and a
(00:42):
founding member of the Special Air Service SAS serving in North
Africa, Italy and Northwestern Europe.
So welcome, Tony. Thanks for having me.
We are also joined today by our indispensable guest, SAS Rogue
Heroes correspondent, George. So welcome back, George.
Thanks guys. All right, so we'll dive right
(01:08):
in. We have some sort of general
writing related questions. You've spent a long time
predominantly in sports journalism and your other
biography is about racehorse trainer Henry Cecil.
So what brought you to historical non fiction and Reg
seekings in particular? Yeah, it's an interesting
question in that, you know, 5 or6 years ago, if you'd said to
me, oh, your next book is going to be about World War 2 and
(01:31):
about Special Forces, I would have looked at you as if you'd
got through your heads simply because it had not been an area
I'd ever explored before and couldn't ever imagine writing
about. But during lockdown, for all of
us, you know, everything just felt different, looked
different, and we were kind of trying to fill the time and
space. So one day when I was sort of
channel hopping and what looked like an interesting documentary
(01:54):
and it soon became apparent to me that it was featuring Archive
interviews with the original members of the Special Air
Service. And obviously, you know, I think
Sterling was on there, a Johnny Cooper, Pat Riley.
So there was a really interesting selection of archive
interviewees, but one stood out.And I kind of thought, well,
(02:16):
that accent sounds mildly familiar.
And I thought, well, he actually, and also his his
words, his perspectives were kind of vivid and compelling.
And so, you know, like we all do, I sat there on the sofa and
reached for Google and I just couldn't believe it when I found
out that this character, who of course was Reg Seekings, hailed
from no more than two or three miles from where I was sat
(02:39):
watching this program. And that really was the start of
the journey. I thought, gosh, I need to find
out more. Obviously it was Ben Mcintyre's
documentary that I was watching on BBC.
So I ordered his book, read it, and then couldn't put wartime
SAS stories down red and red. And then the following year the
bypass bridge outside our small city in the Fens was named
(03:02):
Seeking's Way. And that was like a sign.
I was like, gosh, I've been reading about all this guy and
now there's a bypass bridge that's been named after him.
So I thought, I want to write about him.
And I managed to make contact with his family and also through
a very well connected ex Parachute Regiment NCOI was
(03:22):
introduced to the SAS RegimentalAssociation. 1 introduction led
to another and I was up and running, you know, I was, I was
up and away. And so from writing about
football, horse racing and golf,I was suddenly entering a whole
new realm and that actually feltreally exciting.
Yeah, I'm curious, what was it like working with the Seekings
(03:43):
family? Probably the very first
interview that I did to researchthe book was with the three
nephews of Reg C Kings who happened to be the three three
sons of his brother Bob. Bob also serves in Special
Forces Cambridgeshire Regiment 7Commando, albeit he joined the
SAS later than Reg. And so I went to one of the Bob
(04:08):
seeking sons house. We sat there all day 4-5 hours
just talking about the two men and their respective wards and
also one of Bob seeking sons pointed me in the direction of
Eric Musk who hails from the next door town to where we are
so and he also had been on the same journey as Reg Bob and gone
(04:34):
through Cambridge's 7 Commando and STS.
So I extended my story to including Eric Musk as these
three Fenland figures. The came out of the well, in the
case of the brothers, they came out of the fields, Eric Muskin.
And so that that was the start of it really.
And the Siekings and the Musk's were incredibly supportive and
(04:56):
incredibly knowledgeable. Not only Bob Sieking's middle
son, Kerry Siekings served for many years in the Parachute
Regiment. So his military knowledge really
helped get my head round. Process, procedures, just stuff
that I didn't know about, the sort of rookie questions that I
needed answering and help with. So throughout the Sea Kings were
(05:19):
fantastic, as were the Musks, and I'm pleased to say that stay
in contact with both families and they have been happy to the
best of my knowledge with how the book turned out.
That's lovely. There's so many stories about
the SAS. Some of them are contradictory.
There's a few people who were involved who are larger than
life and the way they told stories, you know, got repeated
(05:41):
and passed and that kind of stuff.
How do you go about determining which stories you want to
include and how far can you reconcile these contradictions
or fill in gaps of missing information?
OK, so having been a sports journalist all these years and
sat in football press boxes, if you read my report on a Sunday
morning and you read the guy next to me, his report and his
(06:01):
recollection of events and then the guy at the end of the row,
there'd be 3 pretty similar ish,you know, not entirely the same
pieces of correspondence the following morning.
And that's just because everyone's prism, everyone's
view of what occurs a football match is different, and it's
exactly the same, in my opinion.On the battlefield, everyone has
(06:22):
their own perspective, and that's why accounts can vary.
When it came to telling Reggie'sstory, I was obviously very
lucky to have access to some incredible archive material, the
private sort of notebooks that Reggie wrote in the decade post
war that a private collector kindly allowed me to use.
So when I was writing about these instances that maybe had
(06:47):
more than one men or often did have more than one men involved,
I wrote from the perspective of Reg and what he had seen and
done. So that was kind of always my go
to, Reggie's War, Reggie's prism, and that was kind of how
I viewed it. In the same way that, like I
say, if you're at a football game or at a horse race,
everyone might see it unfolding in a different manner.
(07:08):
So I just went with Reggie's take.
Yeah, Yeah, that makes sense. You spoke quite extensively with
Mike Sadler. He's one of our favorites from
SAS, Rogue Heroes and you even you mentioned in your
acknowledgments that the first call with him was so long that
it required a tea break. So I would just love to hear
your impressions of Mike during that initial conversation and if
you have any favorite anecdotes you could share.
(07:29):
With us. So Mike is absolutely one of my
favourites too. And gosh, what a privilege it
was to get to know Mike in the last couple of years of his
life. I visited him.
I was lucky enough to visit him regularly and have loads of
different conversations with himon all aspects of life.
Mike as a gentleman, well, he was a gentleman firstly, but as
(07:51):
a gentleman he was sharp, humorous, warm hearted,
inquisitive, fun, fun, definitely really fun and
remained curious about everything and anything.
And if people ask me what do youmean by that, I always say that
aged 102, which point Mike was blind, he was inquiring about
(08:11):
the football offside law at the age of 102.
He wanted to know during the World Cup what the football
offside law was all about. So he, you know, he'd managed to
live for 102 years without bothering with it.
But he realized that was something he needed to know as
he was listening to World Cup matches at that time.
So that to me just shows how curious and interested he was in
(08:36):
anything and everything and everyone.
If you were privileged enough tomeet Mike, he would always want
to know about aspects of your life, what you'd been doing, how
your garden looked or all those kind of small scale details.
That it's lovely when people arethat interested in you, isn't
it? It's rare when you find people
(08:57):
in this world. Everyone's obviously busy and
wrapped up their own affairs. Mike always took time to ask how
I was, what I was doing. I loved that about him and so he
like you. He is one of my favourites,
absolutely one of my favourites.And if you said to me, what's
your dream dinner Table 6 guests, Mike Sadler would be
pretty high, if not number one on that list.
(09:18):
Oh my goodness, I guess sometimes you can meet your
heroes. I'll pass you off to George now
for some more specifically Reg related questions so we can do a
little bit of a deep dive on him.
My. First question actually is less
sort of specifically to Reg, butboth you and I are local to Reg
(09:43):
to this area and I sort of feel like it's a really distinct bit
of land. I would really love it if you
could just take a moment to describe for sort of the rosy
listeners what the fence is likeand maybe what sort of Reg's
early life would have been like here in this land.
OK, so Reg. His father had come home from
the Great War. He suffered serious injury, lay
(10:06):
alone in no man's land for threedays.
Third battle of Eep, the legacy for him of the wall was a hole
in his back the size of your fist and he returned from the
Bedfordshire Regiment to work onthe fields like most young men
did in our part of the world. This is still very much an
(10:27):
agricultural area. The Fen fields 100 years ago was
where you were expected in many instances if you were from hail
from this part to go and earn your living and the Fen fields.
So it's it's a relatively flat area area in the winter if the
winds off the northeast, there'snot much between US and Siberia.
(10:48):
So in winter time it can be bitterly cold.
And in the summer, if you're working on those fields, no
trees for cover, no places to hide from the baking sun.
It's it's incredibly harsh environment to work in too.
So I think if you are from this part of the world and you worked
outside, you were hardened by the elements which would enable
(11:11):
you to cope with, let's say, theNorth African desert during the
3840° midday sun and also the freezing cold nights that they
also experienced there. So I think Reg was shaped and
hardened by the environment in which he grew.
The young Reg left school at 14,followed his father onto the
fields but also didn't necessarily accept that as his
(11:36):
lot. He was a good young boxer,
talented young boxer, not necessarily textbook, but he
packed a heavy punch and used tofight all round this part of
East Anglia as a light heavyweight and he had some
success. So he will have been fit, he
will have been tough and you know, he was a strong, brawny,
(11:57):
hard knocking fella. You know, the army when it came,
when the war came, the Cambridgeshire Regiment offered
something different. He was a territorial from early
1939 and won an infantry divisional title as a light
heavyweight. So yeah, he was, he was.
He was a tough person, shaped bythe land and shaped by the
(12:21):
environment from which she came.Does that answer it, George?
That absolutely answers it. I just, I, I love this landscape
and I think it produces some very interesting people.
So I really wanted you to speak on that.
But that leads really nicely into sort of the next question,
which was about sort of what wasit like to sort of step into
Reg's own recollections? And during your research, what
(12:41):
kind of sense of personality of his did you get?
So one of the first things I didwas listen to the Imperial War
Museum's audio reels, which which were recorded in the 80s
and 1980s. Rach recorded them in in later
life. So he'd been mid 60s.
And I was struck by just he, he resonated with me as someone
(13:03):
from this part of the country. I know people like that.
They're not ostentatious, they are wise, they are clever.
They might speak slowly and the odd one of us has a country
twang to our accent, but while we might speak slowly doesn't
necessarily mean we we are necessarily thinking slowly.
(13:24):
And Reg will thought on his feetthroughout his war.
He was very sharp, very decisive.
And that came across in listening to those audio reels
also, he just had, he could remember what happened.
He had an eye for detail. Nothing.
He missed nothing. He missed nothing.
And his sure solid assertions sort of printed themselves
(13:47):
indelibly on my mind to the point that when I was writing
and listening to those audio reels, I could hear him.
I could hear him at night in my mind.
I could hear him speaking. So, yeah, I mean, he did have,
you know, a significant effect on me sort of being up close and
personal. Sort of it was, I like having
him in the living room with you because I think there was 17
(14:08):
audio reels. So that was hour after hour
after hour, not just a 20 minuteinterview or 1/2 hour.
There was hours. And so you got a real sense of
just how Hardy he was and what made him chuckle, what he
thought his moral code was, his values were.
So it was fascinating along withreading those notebooks which
(14:31):
were obviously written just after the war, in the years
after war. So combining reading those
notebooks alongside listening tothe audio reels, I felt I got to
know Reg. Although you can't be sitting in
a room with someone and speakingto really just just look into
their eyes and gain a proper feel.
So I would love to have met him,obviously, of course I would.
(14:51):
But sadly, by the time I startedresearching and writing this, it
was 21 years too late. 22 years too late.
Can I ask a follow up question to that Turner or didn't they
read tackle? That's a good question.
He quite liked if you he was a teaser, I would say.
So if someone you know, if something, if an incident befell
(15:13):
someone you know, a little pieceof bad luck befell someone, I
don't know if like he'd laugh athimself.
So, for instance, I'll give I'llgive this story he they were on
an operation and they were having to duck for cover because
they'd been spotted and Reg was hiding away on the edge of a
cave. And he thought this would be an
(15:33):
appropriate time to change his underwear while they were just
waiting to get on the on the wayagain.
And literally, as he was in the process of changing his
underwear, the return of the Luftwaffe forced him into sort
of an embarrassing situation where he was literally caught
with his pants down while there was, as I say, aircraft in the
(15:54):
vicinity. And recollecting like he didn't
mind laughing at himself like that, and he didn't mind
laughing at others caught in similar situations of peril like
that. He'd find that chuckle worthy.
I love that. Does that Does that answer it?
Certainly does. It's it's it's what I would call
my old Mickey taking he quite like a little bit of that and
(16:16):
wouldn't be averse to a little bit of teasing of something.
But as I say, he's quite happy to, you know, poke fun at
himself if he was caught in a situation such as the one
described. I like that.
Because I think one of the wordsthat we hear about him quite
often is the word stoic. So it's quite nice to hear him
being described as a teaser, I think.
Yeah, I think that's right. I definitely think Reg had a
(16:38):
sense of humor, absolutely had asense of humor.
And I'll not forget that it was Sterling that recorded in an
excellent book written about himby Alan Ho.
And I'll paraphrase something Sterling said, which was that
Johnny Cooper and Reg seemed able to laugh regardless of
circumstance. The two of them enjoyed one
(17:00):
another's company and managed tofind the fun in quite a lot of
situations. That is something that people
didn't recognize. They saw him as rough, tough,
mean and bad. And Reg at times is quite happy
to perpetuate that. But as Sterling said, he, you
know, and Johnny Cooper could laugh regardless of
circumstance. And also talking about others
(17:23):
who judged Reg and his character.
Fraser McCluskey, the Padre viewed Reg and he wrote this in
his book Parachute Padre. Or is it one of his other book?
He viewed Reg as good hearted. So good hearted suggests to me
that he was been a great guy to to have had in your corner, to
have been around, have been a good guy to have had on the
(17:45):
team. You know, he was in, in
Mccluskey's words, good hearted.So those are sides that we don't
always necessarily see when it comes to Reg.
And that's what I hoped to sharein my book.
Yes, there was the gallantry, yes there was the the Brown and
the bravery and the toughness. Undoubtedly we all know that.
(18:05):
But there were many sides to Regseekings.
He was fully rounded. Character.
He had character. Fantastic.
And in fact, you touched on two of the relationships that I
found really moving when you spoke about them in your book.
I mean, one of the chapters first to friends that sort of
deals a lot with his relationship with Johnny Cooper.
And I was just wondering if you wanted to speak a little bit
(18:25):
further on anything you sort of found in their relationship.
They seem to be quite sort of different people when they went
into the war. They're very different people
and background and also personality and Mike Sadler is
explained that to me. You know, he got on very well
with Johnny Cooper, who was quite worldly, had done some
travelling and certainly he was very charming.
(18:47):
Reg, for all his many qualities,wasn't obviously charming to in
my opinion. I'm sure he was given the right
circumstance, but there is no that that's what struck me about
the archive interviews was just how charming Johnny Cooper was
that lightness of touch that he had.
And I'm not sure that Reg had that lightness of touch.
(19:08):
So the two of them were very different characters and that
came to the surface quite early on in their time in the SAS well
known episode where the pair of them almost came to blows in the
final months of 1941. You know, it was only weeks
after that incident where they were on an operation together up
on the Libyan coastline near Certe where they were both in
(19:30):
action together. And it was in those situations
that they realized just how gallant one another was, how
brave they both were and the respect that left in each
other's minds and meant that a firm friendship was forged to
the degree that the pair of themwere respective best men at each
other's weddings. So that will tell you how their
(19:51):
relationship quickly changed andthe respect and they always
knew, but the other was there for them.
And that must have been such a help in those situations.
See, Kings knew that whatever position he was in, if he had
Johnny Cooper with him, that wasfine by him.
That's who he'd want there and vice versa.
It was a really, it's a really good book by Gordon Stevens.
(20:11):
The SAS originals in their own words, both the depth of respect
for one another is evident. And you know, I think.
I think you'd have to look at the book, but Johnny Cooper
said, you know, Seekings had guts and, and, and was there for
him and, and, and Reg was equally complementary in what
what he would always say about Johnny once they've got over
(20:33):
that first initial row in in TheCave or whatever it was that
time in late 1941, they were friends forever.
Yeah, I do remember the in one of the originals Johnny Coopers
book. It's a very memorable
dedication, which is to the originals and especially Rage
seekings. And I think that was one of the
first books about the SES I everread.
And I thought, that's a really beautiful thing.
(20:55):
Says it right there, doesn't it?Says it right there what they
meant to one another. Exactly.
And I think that's sort of a sense that people almost had to
not, I say want to don't want tosay like earn Reg's respect, but
I think he didn't suffer fools. Like if I recall correctly, his
relationship with Fraser McCluskey, there was an element
of he was a little bit scepticalat 1st and after he was wounded
(21:18):
and McCluskey really stepped up and sort of like helping to take
care of him and bond with him, that's when he they really
became close. And so I was wondering if you
could talk about that relationship and what that might
have meant to Reg I'd. Say, that's arguably, you know,
there's lots of things that I really enjoyed about writing the
book, but the chapter I enjoyed most was probably, well, the two
(21:41):
actually. The two in France, where both
McCluskey and Sea Kings were with a squadron Operation
Houndsworth. Reg was shot at the base of his
head, top of his spine in late June in Vermo Valley.
And obviously McCluskey was withthem unarmed, remember, unarmed.
And he tended to Reg in the weekor so following that
(22:07):
eventuality. He's a very wet, soaking wet
week. And Reg doesn't remember much
about it. McCluskey is there for him.
He's there for him. And that initial skepticism,
that initial, why do we need a Padre?
What's what are we got a Parson,You know, on this, you know that
this isn't a situation for a Parson.
Completely changed as he saw what McCluskey did, not just for
(22:29):
him, but for all the men of a squadron.
He was an exceptional figure. Reg would write later on, You
know, he would say actually, that McCluskey offered something
rather wonderful to all those onthat operation and it was just
something to do. We talk about lightness of touch
with Mike Sadler. McCluskey would have been
(22:52):
another one. Their, their, their view.
Well, seekings for you completely changed.
He enjoyed lots of lengthy conversations with McCluskey.
Arthur France was liberated At some point, Seekings and
McCluskey come across a French family and they're called across
into their house and they said, oh, we saved these tea bags for
this very moment when you know when we're free again.
(23:14):
And Seekings and McCluskey go into join French family to
celebrate the fact they're no longer occupied.
And, you know, it's Seekings in McCluskey that sit and enjoy
that moment together with the French family.
And I just found that their relationship showed to me that
Seekings was maturing, was changing.
(23:35):
In the past, he might have not been so open to change or, or
to, to have his opinion altered.He might just have been a black
and white, you know, this is what it looks like.
I'm not changing my mind. But actually, as his experiences
of the war unfolded, he became open to change.
And that would be one instance where he did change his
(23:56):
perspective on on things. And certainly McCluskey, who,
who must have been, you know, another one for my dinner table
guests. Please can I have McCluskey
there? Good choice.
I mean, talking about his experiences to go sort of a
little backwards in time. I think we discussed this, I
believe, with Ben on the podcastbefore.
But if you listen to the interviews with him on the
(24:16):
Imperial War Museum and he when Reg starts speaking about
terminally and his experiences there, you can still see that
the emotion effects him quite a lot.
Did you get a sense that his experiences there in Italy were
carried with him later on? So the archive interview that
captures that television, it's shown on Mcintyre's documentary
(24:39):
and Reg says something along thelines, and again, I'm
paraphrase, terminally was bad, terminally was terrible.
And as he says those words slowly, you can see how it was
one of two things that I think really stayed with him.
OK, so there were two things. I mean, there were lots of
things, obviously, that stayed with him, but two that visibly
(25:00):
affected him or audibly were noticeable and terminally,
undoubtedly where that shell landed smack in that truck on
that side street, taking the lives of men that were more than
just comrades. They were his friends.
This had been a long tour. They'd been in Sicily for Capo
Mura de Porco, Operation Husky. They'd gone into Augusta, also
(25:25):
on Sicily. They'd gone up to Bagnara,
mainland Italy, and then they'vegone into terminally, you know,
these men. He'd trained them.
They were Lieutenant Johnny Wiseman, section, but Reg was
their Sergeant and had been heavily involved in getting
these men battle ready, ready for what they needed to do.
And so to see so many good men, so many excellent men taken out
(25:50):
by that shell strike, I can't. I think it must have deeply
affected Reg. And like I say, when you see
him, when he says those words, terminally was bad.
Terminally was terrible. You know that it flashes through
his mind When when, when he saysthat.
How can it not? Of course, and I think by this
time Bob was also in the SAS of,am I right, he joined by Italy.
(26:12):
And I think it'd be really amissif we didn't ask you about sort
of Bob Seekings and Eric Musk, who obviously feature very
heavily in the book and I think possibly due to not being
featured in Broke Here as the TVseries might be a little lesser
known about. So I was wondering if you could
just sort of talk around who they were and their relationship
to Reg and their careers? Bob C Kings was younger brother,
(26:33):
younger brother of Reg, 2 1/2, three years younger and he was a
very talented runner, talented, loved sports, cricket, went on
later life, loved, loved horse racing and probably a different
cut from a different cloth to Reg.
They weren't they weren't the same in terms of their
temperament, outlook or person. And Eric Musk was older and kind
(26:57):
of took Bob under his wing. They were involved in the
fighting withdrawal on Crete together, saw hand to hand
combat before Reg did because Reg, I was nursing an injury at
that time and missed out on Crete.
And Bob and Eric were left behind in the official
evacuation but managed to get themselves on a landing craft,
(27:20):
you know, somehow after 10 days on a pecan sea, managed to get
behind home lines in Egypt, but they were starving, hungry,
they'd wasted. It was actually reported in the
Cambridgeshire Times, actually their privations, the
difficulties they had. So Eric Musk lost 2 stone on
that those 10 days. And so they had a pretty tough
(27:41):
Crete. They then spent some time in
depot and it was not until 1943 that they were trained
operatives as part of the expansion of the regiment.
By which time the SES had gone from elder attachment to
regiment status and that happened in 1942.
And so they were trained and ready for Operation Husky and
(28:01):
they saw and I think actually they were Reg was Superman,
right? What Reg had was unique,
different. Not many people could be like
Reg seekings. So I think most of us could
relate more to Bob and Eric. Eric was just a, you know, I
said he was a gentleman, but also, you know, he was, he was,
(28:23):
he was a gentleman and a gentleman.
And they he kind of looked afterBob and talking to the Sea Kings
family, there was one specific instance where they were moving
forward on Sicily and they've been held up by an Italian gun
position and using, you know, fire and manoeuvre, they had
each other's backs and advanced and, you know, neutralized that
(28:44):
gun position. And I just thought, gosh, the
faith you must have in one another to move forward
together. And it was on Eric to look after
Bob and on Bob to look after Eric and that their story that
touched me and moved me. And ultimately Reg is an
incredible person. But I could sort of relate more
(29:05):
to Bob and Eric than I then I could Reg, if you know what I
mean. So that is who they were to
incredibly brave and gallant menin their own right.
I think it's a great reminder that there are so many people
whose stories deserve to be told, and we only will ever hear
a fraction of them. Very true.
That's absolutely the case and it's why there are more and more
(29:26):
stories starting to to come out now because relatives stumble
across photographs or old letters and you know, the kind
of reveal, just the level of heroism that was across the
board, not just Reg Seekings, Johnny Cooper, Paddy made and
Co. There were so many that were
like Bob Seekings and like Eric Musk.
Absolutely. So your book covers Regis World
(29:48):
War Two career and touches briefly on his post war career
where after a stint as a Lord ofthe Rifleman's Arms, which sadly
does not exist anymore although my mother remembers the
existing, he ended up as part ofthe police anti terrorist unit
in the British South Africa Police in Rhodesia.
Was it a very deliberate choice to focus closely on his WAR
career? And is there anything you'd like
to discuss about his later career?
(30:08):
Yeah, so just as a quick aside, don't you wish the rifleman's
arms was still open? We could have done this podcast
together from there, couldn't we?
If it was still open, how cool would it have been?
So. So I'm down with you on that.
It'd be the Rifleman's arms. It is a shame.
And I'm. Did you say your your mother's
remembers it or has been in there?
My mother remembers it existing so because I think it ultimately
closed in like the 80s or something like that.
(30:30):
Yeah, I think that's right, 80s,early 90s.
But getting back to your question, so Reg went, he
established the rifleman's arms in the, I think it was 1946, he
and his wife Monica. I imagine after what he had been
through and what he'd seen and done, Ely may have been a bit
sleepy and a bit slow for someone of Reggie's, you know,
(30:50):
what he'd done and experienced, it must have been all a little
bit one paste. So he decided to take himself
off to Southern Rhodesia to fulfill his ambitions to become
a farmer. But it's something that he'd
always wanted to do. He didn't want to be a farm
labourer. He wanted to be the farmer
before the war. And so he finally fulfilled that
ambition as a tobacco farmer andalso a reservist for the British
(31:14):
South Africa Police and the Police Anti Terrorist Unit.
Why did I not cover that more? I think it's because it was
difficult. I think that the lack of
materials, while I did speak to someone, and I've had one or two
people approach me who served under Ridge after the books
published have been in touch. And to say he was an
extraordinary teacher who rarelyspoke about what he'd done, who
(31:37):
he was. He didn't really.
He had to be prized out of him, which shows that he was a sort
of pretty modest, humble person,considering the metal collection
that he could wear on his chest.So, yeah, I think he went there
to be a farmer. But he enjoyed having a
connection with the military andhe enjoyed training, you know,
young officers, which he did during the time of the Bush War.
(31:57):
And I found that I didn't know enough to, to cover that with,
with the benefit of Reggie's audio, I could cover his war and
those notebooks. I could cover the early days of
the SAS and North Africa quite well.
But I felt, and also, I mean, you know, the National Archives
at Q, the documents there are soextensive and exhaustive.
(32:18):
You could sort of plot those. And as a journalist, I wanted it
to be was factually correct as well as, you know, a good strong
page Turner. I wanted it to be factually
correct. And so I could do that with the
materials I had at my disposal. However, I couldn't do that with
the years from the mid 50s to, you know, the early 80s when he
returned. So I thought, well, I'm not
(32:38):
going to guess. I thought it wouldn't be
appropriate and so I didn't. I focused primarily on his early
years, his war years and, you know, a little bit later in
life, people that knew him when he came back to England in the
early 1980s and retired and Suffolk in the home village of
his wife Monica. And so I could get some insights
first hand from people about what the later life Reg was
(33:00):
like. So that's why it made sense to
focus on Reggie's life. Prime 8590% of the book on
finishes in 1945. Makes a lot of sense.
Very good answer. So we've touched on a lot of
different things. There's obviously a lot more in
the book to to learn about. Is there anything that you learn
that either didn't make it in orthat you wish you could have
(33:21):
spent more time with? The only I mean, there's nothing
in the well, I would like to have known more about Reggie's
time in Rhodesia stroke Zimbabwe.
I would like to also know how closely connected he was with
with his old comrades during those years from the mid 50s to
the early 80s. Now he, he did attend events
when he came back and obviously there's quite a famous picture
(33:43):
of him in the mid to late 90s attending the unveiling of Paddy
Main statue in Newton Arts. So we know that he was close
with his pals in later life. But I want to know whether he
kept in touch with those people during the mid 50s through to
the early 80s or whether he justdecided that, hey, I'm setting
up a new life for myself and that's behind me now.
(34:05):
And I'd also like to know Brian Franks was instrumental in
keeping the S AAS alive in the late 1940s.
And I'd like to know if Reg, before he moved away, remains
closely aligned with Franks's continuation of the SAS.
I'd like to know a few things about that.
That's all of my questions. Well done.
He got through me speaking, I think.
(34:26):
Macho, would you like to continue from here on in?
Sure. I will ask you some more, well,
some other questions. I will say we couldn't fit them
into any of the other categories.
So you've written this book. Has it changed your perspective
(34:50):
on military history at all, or interested?
I can't, yeah, I can't explain enough how researching and
writing this book has had a significant impact on how I view
the world and how I view my own profession.
I mean, I previously thought writing about last minute
penalty saves or fantastic golf shots or pulsating finishes to
(35:11):
horse races. I used to think that was
exciting and I used to think that a last minute winner was an
act of heroism. And I've suddenly realized that
the the sports field is a pale shadow of, of what constitutes
gallantry, commitment, determination, teamwork that's
shown on the battlefield. The sports field is a pale
(35:32):
comparison. You know, when you look at what
real courage is and, and what real dedication to those around
you is. So yes, it has had a significant
effect on how I view things. And certainly, as I said to you
when we were talking before we recorded, I, there's always a
World War Two book by my side. Can't get enough of the subject.
(35:53):
I just find it absorbing, fascinating, compelling,
endlessly, you know, interesting.
So yeah, there's a big effect onme.
And has it made you hungry for more, to write more in that
regard? Do you want to write any stories
about the people you've researched or something else?
Yep. So the last year, so the book
(36:13):
came out a year, about a year ago now.
And so over the last 12 months Ihave done lots of talks,
recorded several podcasts, interviews, etcetera to promote
the book. And only last weekend I was
doing a talk in Hereford at the Hereford Military History
Festival, which was a fantastic event, by the way.
I can't tell you how good that inaugural festival festival was
(36:35):
and hope that I'll have a subject good enough, strong
enough to return with in in future renewals of that
festival. And so I've been so busy
promoting it, as well as doing kind of the day job, which is
still sports related, that I've not had time to get my head into
a new project until now. And I'm from mid-october.
I'm about to start research intoanother wartime SAS figure.
(36:59):
I can't say any more at the moment than that, but suffice to
say an equally heroic person, anequally fascinating person.
But don't hold your breath as towhen it's out.
It took me more than two years to write Seeking, so I'm a
notoriously slow grafted trying to get everything down,
everything good, everything meticulously researched.
(37:20):
So you might have me back on thepodcast in about 2 1/2 years
time and I'll tell you all aboutit, if that's all right.
We would not like you back on the podcast.
That sounds good to me. And also two years doesn't sound
like a very long time, at least to me, to write a book.
It's a big project to do. I think that's right.
I think I mean just a general comment about writing a book,
(37:41):
and I would fully recommend the experience to anyone and
everyone if they feel that it's something they're interested in.
It's just a case of showing up when you write a book.
You don't have have to be inspired or particularly blessed
with writing prowess. You just simply need to say, I'm
going to sit at my desk at 9 O clock in the morning just like
you would if you were turning upfor a job.
(38:03):
You have to write the first sentence, put a full stop on it,
and then write the next sentenceand the next sentence and the
next sentence and then turn up next day and do it again.
That's what it requires. It requires determination more
than it does. So perspiration more than
inspiration is the best way of putting it.
Right, so I'm going to make a little bit of a sidestop here to
(38:25):
the BBC series Work Heroes. Obviously there's been some
mixed reviews on that from different angles and I wonder if
I could get your opinion, not onthe show specifically, but how
you feel about fictional portrayals of real life events
and if you have any thoughts or recommendations on that for
(38:46):
future, I guess TV. Before.
Well, I mean, it's I'm probably not the right person to pass
judgement on it really, but whatI can say is in the case of
Rogue Heroes, the first series in particular reached out to my
2 teenage sons and shared a slice of history that otherwise
(39:08):
would have remained unknown to them.
OK, And while as the television show said with its second
series, this is not a history lesson, I think is what it said
or something words to that effect before each episode.
It did take a story, as I say, that may well have been missed
by young people or not acknowledged by certain
(39:29):
generations and has given them an insight into those
characters. And in the case of my sons, they
have retained an interest in a subject that otherwise, as I
say, that might have passed themby.
So did it run and fast and loosewith certain episodes?
Yeah, I think we, I think it's agreed that they've said that
themselves. I didn't particularly watch the
(39:51):
second series, if I, if I'm honest, but the first series I
found entertaining. It brought this story to to to
an audience that otherwise mightsort of certain sections of
audience otherwise might not have, you know, enjoyed it or
seen it or found out about elements of it.
Does that kind of make sense? It's only does.
I think that's generally also our opinion on it.
(40:14):
Even if things are historically not quite overweight accurate,
if they reach new people and make new people interested in
their stories, then it's a good thing.
I would say, and you know, the third series is currently being
is in production, isn't it? So we shall look forward to
seeing that. I would imagine that Rachel be
quite prominent in it given whatoccurred for him in France being
(40:36):
when, you know, he was shot in the mall van.
And so I may watch that and see where the series is at.
Excellent. So I think we've come to maybe
your favorite part of what is this interview is going to be.
Can you recommend us any World War Two books?
Yes. So I've never ever been asked
that question. Some of the questions I've been
asked before from tonight, but you know a lot of them I
(40:58):
haven't. So I'm very grateful for you
guys for providing such a stimulating interview.
But this is my favorite bit. So I could have come to you with
a list of SAS books that you've probably read, seen, or heard
of. So I thought, well, I'm not
going to do that. I am going to come to you with
some different recommendations. And because I'm still learning
so much about what happened in World War 2 and wanting to dive
(41:19):
into new areas, I try and look across the spectrum of subjects.
So this is one I've recently read on the Esso E It's by
Maurice Buckmaster, the true story of SO ES agents in wartime
France, and the book is called They Fought alone.
Buckmaster was the leader of theSO ES French section.
(41:40):
And as the the notes on the backsay, these are his extraordinary
memoirs and they feature just somany fascinating insights.
And you know, there are about four different agents in here
that I'm thinking I'd love to write their biography.
So want to find out more about some of those people that were
involved in in the Soe's activities in wartime France.
(42:03):
So yes, I can't recommend highlyenough.
Maurice Buckmaster. They fought alone.
So that's number one. Number two, it's just the Long
Range Desert Group. Everyone loves the LRDG, don't
they? And this book was incredibly
helpful in giving me an idea about their early days and kind
of those raids that Reg was on and and Sadler was on.
(42:28):
And so this book is called Long Range Desert Group
Reconnaissance and Raiding Behind Enemy Lines.
And it was written by WB KennedyShaw, again a man who was there.
The notes on the back with its brilliant description of the
harsh beauty of the desert and it's exciting chronicle of the
LRD GS activities. This book is as fascinating
today as it was when it was first published in 1945.
(42:51):
So this was a man that was there.
So it says when the war broke out, he used his skills and
knowledge in the LRDG. He later served in the
Intelligence Core and with the SAS reaching the rank of major.
So there you go. So that's a cracking book on the
LRDG. Really.
It's well written and it was written at the time, so it's
absolutely spot on as a recollection.
(43:13):
So I love that. I thought that was really good.
Next one, like I say, I'm still learning all the time.
So A Noble Crusade, the History of 8th Army, 1941 to 1945 by
Richard Doherty. I've just picked that up and
absolutely we're loving that 8thArmy activities at the moment.
I'm I'm deep in North Africa, which is a great place to be and
(43:37):
a great place to just find, you know, coming across characters
like Orkin Lek Montgomery and somany others.
It's a fantastic book and it's currently the one that's by my
bedside, one that I read a long time ago, very early in the
process. And I was recommended it by
someone who's now sadly passed but new Reg in later life.
(43:57):
And he suggested I read To War with Wit, written by Hermione
Ran Ferley, the Countess of Ran Ferley.
She kept a diary of her life during the war.
She wasn't meant to go to war, but she did.
She followed her husband to North Africa and came across a
series of fascinating charactersincluding Seekings.
(44:20):
And as I say, there's, there's. She has a sharp wit, a colourful
way of telling stories and her diary entries are particularly
fascinating coming from, as it says here, a strong and
outspoken woman. You know, he was in some very
interesting places at a fascinating time.
So to war with Whittaker. Hermione ran firly.
And I'll give you one last book.It is an SAS book, really good
(44:43):
book. These men are dangerous.
The Early years of the SAS by Derek Harrison, who of course
was an officer in the SAS and was involved Bob seeking served
under him in Sicily. And so he has, as it says, a
fascinating and vivid account ofhis experiences as a Lieutenant
in the SAS during the early years of the service.
(45:06):
So there is an SAS book for you if there is anyone who wants to
specifically SAS Special Forces focus book.
These men are dangerous, so there are hopefully 5 that you
possibly won't have read or won't have read.
All of that I can say, should keep you going until the new
year. That's excellent.
I just want to say for the sake of our audience that George has
(45:27):
been thieving and pulling books from their bookcase that you've
just mentioned. It's just hilarious.
It's so. Nice.
How tall is that, George? Have you got all five of them?
No, the SAS one I have not read and I haven't read the 8th Army
one either, but the other three I have read.
They are all fantastic, fantastic.
So I'm so happy, especially happy that you mentioned to all
(45:48):
with Whitaker because Hermione Ranfilly, I think is one of the
most fascinating people I've ever read about the war memoir
or her Diaries became a war memoir that I've not read
anything like it. And I know it'd.
Be a good one for our dinner table, wouldn't she?
Let's be honest, she'd be good for the dinner list.
She would be fantastic for the dinner table.
Absolutely get her in there. Cool.
So I guess that kind of leaves us at the end of this interview.
(46:11):
Tony, do you have anything you want to plug?
No, I'm not someone that wants to, you know, just to promote
your podcast really. I hope more power to you.
Well done, all of you for havingsuch a fab podcast series and
taking. And I want to say thank you to
you for taking making an interest in my book so
brilliant. Good on all of you.
More power to you. And do hit me up in 2 years time
(46:33):
when I finally might manage to get another book out there.
Absolutely. Well then we'll just block your
book again. Everybody go return this book.
Yeah, I mean, and if anyone wants personalized copies of the
book, I'm on Instagram. I can't remember my Instagram
handle, I'm afraid. I used to, you know, I used to
use Twitter all the time, but I've become less and less, you
know, I don't use it anymore, really.
(46:54):
I like Insta. It's friendly and more
fascinating so if anyone does want a signed copy of the book
then feel free to message me viainsta and I'll be happy to help
her. Yes please, I will take you in
our purse so people never want to find her.
That's great. And like I say, once again,
thank you for having me as a guest on your fantastic podcast
(47:14):
and really enjoy this chat and hope that you have too because
I've certainly found it different and fun.
And it's been great to meet all of you, albeit I do know George
and do know George's dad from living in and around Ely so.
And George's dad is one of the nicest people that I've know as
one of my sons was taught by himso.
(47:35):
So there we go. By the way, this is what made me
most nervous. This is my nervous.
I've been through an episode. This guy knows my dad.
It's different. Small world.
Thank you so much. It's a really lovely
conversation. I've loved it too.
Thank you so much for listening to Rosie the reviewer.
Oh my God, I didn't think George.
Thank you, George, for being on our podcast again.
(47:56):
I always do that. I just, you're just part of the
furniture now. George, you've been so awesome.
Thank you so much for listening everyone.
You can find us wherever you getyour podcast.
You can rate US five stars. You can send this episode to a
friend, particularly an SAS Rogue Heroes loving friend.
You can visit us on our website,rosathereviewer.com or you can
follow us on Instagram at Rosa the Reviewer Podcast.
See you next week.
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