April 28, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of RRE POV, General Partners Raju Rishi, and Will Porteous dive into why augmented reality is poised to outpace virtual reality as the next mainstream tech platform. Raju and Will explore the near-term AR investment landscape and the kinds of apps they’d bet on today. If you're a founder thinking about what to build—or an investor scanning the horizon—this episode is your blueprint for where AR is headed and why it matters now.
Show Highlights
(00:00) Introduction
(1:15) Limitations of virtual reality (VR)
(2:09) What is augmented reality (AR)?
(3:40) Will and Raju’s earliest experiences with AR
(6:55) More recent examples of AR
(9:06) Early AR hardware
(10:31) Different iterations of smart glasses
(14:56) Fitness mirrors: AR or not?
(18:50) AR will compete with other devices for attention capture
(20:31) Early AR applications
(24:23) Foursquare’s role in anchoring mobile devices to the physical world around them
(27:01) Consumer-driven AR applications
(31:00) Enterprise-driven AR applications
(35:40) Gatling Gun Section
Links
RRE POV Website: https://rre.com/rrepov
X: @RRE
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rre-pov/id1719689131
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Raju (00:00):
That went to my favorite of all time, which was Pokémon Go.
Did you ever play that with your kids?
Will (00:06):
A little bit, yeah.
But it was such a big unlock for the whole experience.
And again, the physical world unlock.
You’ve known me a long time.
You know that I’m obsessed with maps, and geospatial information,
and tying the digital to the physical, and that was like an
explosion of an experience, and a really rich one for Pokémon fans.
Raju (00:30):
Pokémon Go, man, that was something else.
I literally for, like, a year, I would just open up my phone,
no matter where I was, and see if there’s Pokémon around [laugh]
. I’m Raju Rishi.
Will (00:48):
And I’m Will Porteous.
Welcome to RRE POV, the show in which we record the
conversations we’re already having among ourselves, our
entrepreneurs, and industry leaders for you to listen in on.
Raju (01:03):
Hello, RRE POV listeners.
This is Raju Rishi with my partner, Will Porteous, and today, we’re
going to discuss the current and future state of augmented reality.
I’m a big believer that augmented reality will have a much more
profound near-term impact than virtual reality, for a number of reasons.
(01:25):
One, VR experiences require immersive headsets, which for
right now, are heavy and cumbersome and can only be worn
for a limited duration because of battery and dizziness.
And Will and I talked about this in a prior podcast
when we were evaluating the Apple Vision Pro.
Will (01:46):
Right, yeah.
Raju (01:47):
The second is, I think VR is still—and we talked about this
in that episode as well—is very much a single-player experience.
And I think augmented reality, on the other hand,
is simply supplementing your real-world experiences.
So, lighter weight and by definition, multiplayer, right?
I think—
Will (02:07):
Right.
Raju (02:07):
Real-world supplementation.
So anyway, I’m going to kick this off and
I’m just going to throw out a statement.
Like, what is augmented reality?
And this is sort of like the Encyclopedia Britannica definition, if you will.
Will (02:21):
Maybe you better define ‘Encyclopedia
Britannica’ for some of our listeners.
Raju (02:24):
Okay, fine.
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No one knows what it is.
All right—
Will (02:27):
The Wikipedia definition [laugh]
? Raju: The Wikipedia def—actually, I just went
to, I think, OpenAI, ChatGPT came up with this.
So, augmented reality is three things.
Overlays digital content, such as images, sounds, and other
sensory enhancements onto our real world in real time.
(02:50):
So, that’s actually the definition.
It has three key features (02:51):
one, seamless blending of digital content
with the physical world; two, a 3D registration—which I totally get.
It’s an accurate alignment of the virtual objects with
the real-world environment—and three, users can interact
with both real and virtual elements simultaneously.
(03:12):
So, that’s what ChatGPT says, and it’s
pulling from a bunch of different sources.
Will (03:17):
That’s a pretty good definition.
Raju (03:18):
Yeah, I think it is.
It’s basically, you got the real world and it’s throwing
an overlay of digital stuff onto it, and that digital stuff
can be images, sounds or, you know, video or other things.
It’s an accurate lock-in between the digital
and the physical, and it’s interactive.
So, that’s kind of what they say augmented reality is.
(03:39):
So, Will, I’m going to ask you some questions about your earliest
experiences with AR, anything that, you know, sort of comes to mind
of things that you experienced that was considered sort of biting
edge at the time, but, you know, kind of was sort of facilitating this
augmentation of either video or images or sound onto a realistic workspace.
Will (04:02):
So, I actually have an example that’s pre-technology, and
almost kind of Stone Age, which is the whole concept of geocaching.
If you think about sort of the idea behind the geocaching games and experiences,
it was all about finding something that was associated with a location.
(04:23):
And you were basically being given a clue to sort of go on with your journey.
It was the ultimate scavenger hunt.
And this existed before, really, we had mobile phones, and then once
we had mobile phones, it became a really intense, cool experience.
And there were some geocaching games that exploded like fads, 10 or 15
(04:43):
years ago, where you had a lot of urban geocaching happening in New York.
And with it, people began to provide supplemental
information about the places where things were hidden,
about where to go next, about the environment around them.
So, it’s beautiful that you started with the definition of augmented
reality because ultimately you’re providing a supplemental information
(05:07):
to inform the audience, the individual playing the game in this case,
about what’s around them, about things that they could do, about
history, about instructions, a richer experience of our physical world.
And to me, that is the, sort of, powerful starting point for
thinking about the augmented reality experience we could have.
Raju (05:29):
I want to talk about that more later because I love that example.
And I had started a company that was kind of using location-based
services to create experiences, and we looked at a bunch
of different startups that [fortunately] aren’t around.
But we’ll talk a little bit more about that later.
So, my earliest experience with augmented
realities is actually museum tours, with
(05:53):
the audio headsets that would basically—you would
walk into a room, something would be triggered.
I don’t even think it was Bluetooth back then; it was some kind of weird
shortwave radio that kind of hit the headphones, and it would start
playing, like, “You’re now in the dinosaur room.” [laugh] . It would start,
you know, like—it was just audio, but it was an augmented reality in the
(06:16):
sense that it was giving you, sort of, like, a talking tour of the museum.
So, that was my earliest indication, but there’s been a number, right?
And I’ll throw out a couple here.
In 1989, I bought a Nissan Maxima—
Will (06:31):
Oh, yeah [laugh]
? Raju: And it had a heads up display.
Uh-huh.
Oh, yeah.
Raju (06:35):
It was the first heads up display that existed.
Will (06:39):
1989?
Raju (06:41):
Yeah, 1989.
Will (06:42):
Wow.
Wow.
Raju (06:43):
There’s a Nissan 240SX or the Nissan Maxima, and it had a little
tiny heads up display in the dash or, like, the front windshield.
And obviously, like, a lot of the cars are having that.
The next one I remember is Snapchat filters [laugh]
. Will: Sure [laugh]
. Raju: Big gap in time.
Big gap in time.
(07:04):
But, you know, clearly, clearly, you know, something had happened.
And that… that went to my favorite of all time, which was Pokémon Go.
Did you ever play that with your kids?
Will (07:15):
A little bit, yeah.
But it was such a big unlock for the whole experience.
And again, the physical world unlock.
You’ve known me a long time.
You know that I’m obsessed with maps, and geospatial information,
and tying the digital to the physical, and that was like an
explosion of an experience, and a really rich one for Pokémon fans.
Raju (07:39):
Yeah.
I didn’t do the Snapchat filters all that much.
I mean, a little bit.
My daughters did a lot.
My sons, not as much, but my daughters a lot.
But Pokémon Go, man, that was something else.
I literally for, like, a year, I would just open up my phone,
no matter where I was, and see if there’s Pokémon around [laugh]
.And people kind of like—at first, I was like one of the early users.
(08:01):
Nobody knew what the heck was going on.
They thought it was insane.
And then everybody, kind of like, cracked their phones.
But actually, the coolest one, Will, if you’re just talking historical stuff,
have you ever been to Universal Studios in the Harry Potter, sort of, space?
Did you ever go to that?
Will (08:18):
No, no.
Tell me more.
Raju (08:19):
Okay.
So, you go to, like, Orlando and you go to Universal Studios,
there’s just, like, Harry Potter section, and you can buy a wand.
And you can wave the wand around and it gives you an interactive experience.
You know, like things in the exhibits would sort of
move based on different, sort of, functions of the wand.
(08:42):
And I haven’t been there, but this year, they just did 2.0 of these
interactive wands with haptic feedback and a bunch of other stuff going around.
So—
Will (08:53):
That’s pretty powerful.
Raju (08:55):
You know, like, to me, that is an example of augmented reality.
It’s just basically, you know, taking different media
types and overlaying it on top of what you’ve got.
So, you know, interesting.
All right, let’s go to the hardware.
I’m going to throw out some hardware, and I’ll
just ask if you had any experience with it.
Do you remember the MIT project called Sixth Sense?
Will (09:15):
Mm-hm.
Raju (09:16):
Okay.
So, this was spectacularly cool.
It was basically a device that, kind of, hung around your
neck and it had a camera, and a projector in it, and a
mirror, and you could basically project onto any surface.
It was reading your environment through the camera, and then it
(09:37):
was projecting onto a surface that you, you know, sort of directed—
Will (09:41):
Amazing.
Raju (09:42):
A bunch of data around your surroundings.
And I remember looking at the time and saying to
myself, “Man, this is going to be really cool.
I’m going to be able to take [basically] a computer that’s sitting on my neck
that I can, you know, basically derive information around my local settings.”
And that was sort of a lot of the genesis around where we went to next.
Will (10:03):
Well, that’s a beautiful example to start with because it kind of
decomposed the hardware functions into their constituent parts, right?
Raju (10:11):
Correct.
Will (10:12):
You needed a processor, you needed something
to gather insights, you needed something to provide
direction, and you needed a way to provide a display.
So, long before there were glasses involved in the
conversation or a phone screen in the conversation, you
had the decomposed device there in the Sixth Sense example.
Raju (10:30):
Absolutely.
It was kind of cool.
Basically, you needed a computing device, you need some sort
of input mechanism, which in this case was your hands, as
well as your surrounds—like it would look at your environment
and give you data about that—and then some sort of projector.
So, this was pre-Google Glass.
But then we had a bunch that came in a row (10:46):
Snapchat
Glasses, the Magic Leap device, and Google Glass.
Do you remember using any of those?
Did you try any of those on?
Will (10:57):
I played with Google Glass, yeah.
Raju (10:58):
Okay.
Did you like it?
What were your first impressions?
What was, sort of, the strengths and weaknesses of that product?
Will (11:04):
I liked that it was lightweight.
I liked that it felt like something I could wear all the time.
I didn’t like that it was kind of a kludgy interface.
I felt like there wasn’t enough that I could do with it.
And it all seemed to be kind of oriented towards interacting
with people, and people were kind of creeped out by it
(11:28):
[laugh]
. Raju: Oh, my God [laugh] . You’re absolutely right about that.
So unfortunately, it kind of turned you into a creep.
And like, I—so I didn’t want to be that guy.
Raju (11:36):
Ahh.
Will (11:36):
So—
Raju (11:39):
I know.
Isn’t that so true?
Will (11:40):
It kind of highlights the social the
socialization element that has to go with this.
It’s part of the reason that I actually think a lot of this stuff will find
its first traction in industrial settings and business-to-business settings.
And we’ll get into all of that later, I’m sure.
Raju (11:54):
Yes, we will.
Yes, we will.
Yeah, I had the Google Glass.
I had tried it on, and I found that it was exactly what I wanted in many
ways, like, the lightweight nature of it, it gave you kind of a visual
display without people sort of seeing what you were seeing, but there
wasn’t a lot of applications at the time that created enough value for me.
(12:17):
And so, I still think it’s got a shot at
success, but it did have a creepiness factor.
And if you remember, the Snapchat Glasses came out shortly thereafter,
and it tried to create this coolness factor, but they were kind of bulky.
Will (12:31):
Well, yeah.
And so, if you draw a line through those data
points, you inevitably get to the Meta Ray-Bans.
And there, they partnered with a cool brand, an established
brand that was known for its coolness, to a point.
And that, I think, has provided something of an entry point into smart glasses.
Now, there’s a lot to be done before that really is unlocking augmented
(12:53):
reality, but you’ve got to get glasses on people’s faces or you’ve got to get
screens in front of people’s eyes to really make this experience energized.
Raju (13:02):
Yeah, I actually have the Meta Ray-Bans.
I like them a lot.
I can use them as an actual regular pair of sunglasses.
Will (13:07):
There you go.
So, they have a basic utility before anything else.
Raju (13:11):
Exactly.
And they don’t look bad, right?
I mean, they actually look nice on the face.
And you don’t kind of obviously know that it’s a Meta Ray-Ban.
If you are recording, it just does shine a light and,
you know, everything like that, which… a little creepy.
Will (13:26):
So, it’s sort of like they put a little siren on your head [laugh]
. Raju: [laugh] . Exactly.
You got this big hat, you know?
“Hellooo?”
The siren goes off if anything unusual is going on [laugh]
. Raju: “Recording taking place.” [laugh] . Exactly.
But the form factor is pretty good.
(13:48):
So, you know, I tried the Google Glass.
I thought the form factor was good, but it looked a little creepy.
I think the Meta looks closer to something I would wear on a regular daily
basis, has a utility and a function outside of just providing that information.
The battery life is getting better, which I really, really like.
(14:10):
And they’re kind of really being thoughtful
about the kinds of data that you want.
You know, I want to listen to music.
It’s kind of—I don’t have to put in an earpiece; I can
actually listen to music while I’m wearing this thing.
I can hear my messages, which is kind of, you
know, interesting while I’m sitting at the beach.
Did you try the Magic Leap glasses?
I never did, no.
Raju (14:29):
Okay.
I didn’t either.
We were actually investors, small investors,
very minority investors in this thing.
I saw some of the videos, and I was kind of blown away, where, like,
you have this that you’re sitting in a gymnasium and you see a whale
kind of jumping out of the, you know, floor, but it never really
materialized to the level that people thought it was going to be.
(14:50):
I think it was just that it was too ahead of its skis, you know, in many ways.
Will (14:56):
Yeah, I mean, from a startup standpoint, I think
this whole sector has suffered a bit from just the
need to have all the constituent parts come together.
And what it needs most is a hardware platform
that people really feel comfortable with.
The best so far, I think we’ve got is Meta Ray-Bans.
We need that as a substrate for other things to unlock.
(15:19):
And no amount of money—and Magic Leap raised a lot of
money—could be enough to forward-enable that market development.
It just had to happen over time.
And it took a powerful player to make it, sort of, broadly accessible.
Raju (15:33):
Yeah.
I’m going to throw out one more piece of hardware, and then we can
move on to sort of the software side of things a little bit, which
I consider to be augmented reality, and you tell me whether you
think it is or not, which is, like, the Mirror or Tonal product.
Will (15:49):
I… don’t—so I have a Mirror.
I don’t think—I don’t consider it an augmented reality product.
I consider it a display, and a display that creates almost like a
hologram kind of experience, but it’s a pretty limited world that it’s in.
Tell me why you think it fits the AR definition.
Raju (16:09):
Because I feel like, you know, I don’t know if the variants
that are out there, you know, provide feedback, but it can give
you—whether you’re wearing Google Glass or not, it’s a mirror that’s
giving you feedback on whether your exercise is being done properly.
Will (16:24):
Right.
So, I think that’s more Tonal than Mirror.
Raju (16:27):
Yeah, it’s more Tonal than Mirror, I think.
It’s kind of an interesting use case to me.
It’s not sort of like this incredibly, like, diverse use case.
It’s just relegated to, like, a working out kind of schema.
Will (16:38):
But you’ve got a great concept there, which is, you know, if something
can give you feedback, then it is really changing and shaping your reality.
It is augmenting your reality.
So, you know, when the screen tells you to, you
know, lower your heels to work on your downward dog.
You’ve changed the experience.
Raju (16:55):
Love downward dog.
Love downward dog.
That’s just because it’s easy to remember.
Like a downward dog.
Will (17:01):
Right, but it’s not easy for everyone to do,
thus the need for the personalized instruction.
Raju (17:07):
I think if you’re Indian, it’s kind of inherent.
Will (17:10):
[laugh] . I’m sure.
Raju (17:10):
It’s just built in.
It’s just built in.
Will (17:12):
Super downward dog.
Raju (17:13):
Have you seen these mirrors in stores?
I think they had it at Uniqlo where you can
put on a jacket and it would change the color.
You could change it to any color.
Will (17:21):
Oh no, I haven’t seen that.
Oh, that’s cool.
Raju (17:23):
So, to me, that’s, like, an extantiation of that.
Like if you can put on an outfit and they give you, sort of, this,
you know, sort of whatever, like, beige-looking thing and you can
see what it looks like on you, in different shades and colors,
without actually having to have all that inventory in store.
You know, to me, that’s kind of an interesting
(17:45):
use of augmented reality in a mirror-type device.
Will (17:48):
Can it show you what you’d look like if you lose ten pounds [laugh]
? Raju: Oh, my God.
Yeah, that would be fantastic.
Can
it just make you lose ten pounds [laugh]
? Will: “Brought to you by Novo Nordisk.” [laugh]
. Raju: [laugh] . Oh, that’s too funny.
Okay, so that’s kind of the evolution of the hardware that I remember, you know.
(18:08):
I’m sure I’m missing something.
I’m sure we’re missing something, but I kind
of feel like that’s where things are headed.
Like, there’s going to be a device on your body.
It’s probably in the form of some kind of glass,
whether it’s translucent or sunglass-based.
There’s going to be a bunch of mirrors out there that are going to be
able to provide, you know, some views into yourself, whether it’s like,
(18:29):
hey, you know, like, this is what this clothing would look like on you.
This is what the shoes would look like on you.
And it’s also going to be your phone, which we didn’t talk about, but
the phones all have AR kits in it and have a bunch of stuff in it.
So, those are kind of the three that I’m envisioning,
you know, sort of being out there to provide this.
(18:50):
So, I’m glad you brought up the phone because I think it has a
place in this world, and yet AR conversation raises the question about
the future of the phone screen as the dominant screen in your life, right?
So, we live with a continuum right now—I know you
and I do—between desktop, laptop, tablet, and phone.
(19:13):
And I tend to center on laptop and phone.
But if this becomes an information interface—my glasses become an
information interface—that will take share from the others, and
I think principally when we’re talking about AR, from the phone.
Raju (19:28):
Yeah.
I actually think there’s going to be multiple devices, right?
I think your car windshield will become an
augmented reality screen, no matter what.
I think it’s going to tell you what speed you’re going, I think
it’s going to tell you that red light going to come up in a little
while, or you’re turning the bend, and it’ll have some view of
(19:51):
whether there’s a deer out there or the—you know, it’ll give you a
display of where the car—you know, your map might be on there, right?
Your Apple Maps might be displayed on that at some point, as
opposed to sort of on this screen that sits adjacent to you.
So, I think that’s going to become a device.
I think there are going to be mirrors, whether it’s working out or for
(20:12):
retail or for whatever; I think there’s going to be a phone out there
that’s going to have, you know, sort of this virtual augmented reality
piece to it; and then I think there’s going to be these head-wearables,
whether it’s a Google Glass or something like that or a Meta Ray-Ban.
So, all right.
I remember—let’s talk about the application frontier, which is, I think,
(20:36):
you know, sort of the most interesting to us as early-stage investors
with our fun size, we’re going to look at the application layers.
And I remember a bunch of startups out there, and I’ll talk about a
few of them, and Maybe you can talk about others or maybe you’ve seen
these, but I remember in 2004, there was a company called Yellow Arrow.
(20:56):
It was Jesse Shapins, and Christopher Allen, and Brian House.
Basically, in New York City and other places around the country—and
world, frankly—you would see this little yellow arrow, and if you
brought the Yellow Arrow app close to it or QR code or whatever you
wanted to call it, it would give you hidden stories about that exact
location that people could create, and experiences that people had.
(21:21):
It was kind of this really interesting, before we had QR codes, this existed.
It was kind of this innovative platform to basically give you
additional insights about where you were stand at the time.
And I remember there was this offshoot startup that got
created after that, which was called Virtual Sticky Notes.
(21:45):
I had started this company along with two other
co-founders called Rave Wireless, and Rave Wireless was
using location-based services at university settings.
It could tell you a bunch of information using location, like,
your location, and it could tell the location of your friends.
So, it could tell you, like, hey, your friend network
(22:06):
is at the pub, or most of them at the library.
You knew where to go if you wanted to meet up.
One of the things we were looking at doing
was this notion of virtual sticky notes.
So, if I declared my friend network on college campus,
I could leave little sticky notes in particular
(22:27):
locations that only my friends would get an alert about.
Will (22:32):
Such a great idea.
Raju (22:33):
Yeah, exactly.
And I really, really love this idea.
And, you know, as you know, we had a bunch of different cool
concepts that we were basically rolling out on college campuses.
One of them, if you were in my friend network,
Will, which you would absolutely be in and you are—
Will (22:53):
I’d be thrilled to be in your friend network.
Raju (22:54):
Yeah, oh, you’re in there.
You’d be, like… the top five.
I might put my family members a little bit ahead of you, but you’d be top five.
So, if you walked into a pub, you might get a little pop-up that says,
hey, the bartender’s name is Jeff, and if you talk to him about the
Buffalo Sabres, you’ll get a free drink because he’s a huge Sabres fan.
(23:14):
And we started doing this on college campuses.
Unfortunately, we had to narrow our scope of function at Rave because
Virginia Tech happened and Northern Illinois happened, so we wound up
focusing our company very, very aggressively around safety and using
location-based safety applications like Rave Guardian and others.
But that notion of virtual sticky notes is something that was sort of created.
(23:40):
And there was a company called Stray Boots—I don’t know if you
remember Stray Boots?—Stray Boots was virtual tour guides that
would basically use your location, and once you hit another
location, it would tell you go to this particular location.
It would be a tour guide for the city.
It would unlock a little bits of trivia
(24:01):
when you reached that particular location.
It was sticky notes, but more for that tour guide notion of things.
Early days of startups leveraging augmented reality for—and
we were doing it at Rave with this notion of sticky notes.
Anything that you recall back then that was sort of like a…
Will (24:22):
Well, I spent a lot of time with Dennis
Crowley, the founder of Foursquare in the early days.
And Foursquare was a phenomenon in its day, and one that really
anchored people’s mobile devices to the physical world around them, and
(24:43):
engaged them in games, and provided some information and all of that.
The explosive growth that they saw—and Dennis and I spent a
lot of time talking about it—was explosive growth, I think, was
testament to the fact that people really want this kind of utility.
They want to engage physically with the world around them.
And we actually leveraged that to launch a company in this space.
(25:05):
We seeded a company called Hot Potato, which was really about
sharing live information about what you’re doing with your friends.
Along the lines of what you’re describing with Rave and Yellow Arrow.
And Hot Potato had a short, exciting life.
It was acquired by Meta, a lot of that team went on to do great
(25:26):
things at Meta because I think Meta as a company really understands
the social dimension of sharing this kind of information.
Lots of important pioneers here.
Some didn’t quite monetize, but broke a lot
of ground from an application standpoint.
Raju (25:40):
Absolutely.
And so, I agree with you.
I think this—you know, this podcast is focused on augmented reality,
and the proposition is that, like, the timing is right, now.
I think that when you look at virtual reality, and you think about the Apple
(26:00):
Vision Pro, and you think about the Meta Quest, and those devices, and that
immersive environment where you’re going to a different location, you’re
completely experiencing something else, I think the challenges that exist
with that is, it’s still single player, as you said, and it’s very discrete.
You do it for a period of time, the headset gets weighty on you.
(26:23):
I think augmented reality is on the precipice for success because I
think the tools exist inside of the mobile phones to basically do some
of the things that I think we’re going to talk about in a few minutes.
I think that you’ve got the Ray-Bans and the next
iterations of those Google Glass devices coming out, and
(26:44):
I think they’re going to be bifurcated in two dimensions.
And I’ll also say, so the heads-up displays on the
cars and on the mirrors are going to be out there.
So, the hardware is not terribly out of whack with cost, but
I think the applications are going to sit on two frontiers.
I think one of the sets of applications is going to be more
(27:06):
consumer-driven, and the second set is going to be more enterprise-driven.
I want to start with the consumer side of things because I
see a bunch of opportunity, and there’s a handful of use cases
that I’m seeing starting, but I think that they will continue.
Have you seen the IKEA Place app, Will?
Will (27:29):
No, tell me.
Raju (27:31):
It’s pretty cool.
You take out your IKEA—it’s an app on your phone, and you can browse
through IKEA’s catalog, and you can look at your room, and it can actually
show their furniture inside of your house or inside of a particular room.
Will (27:46):
Oh, [laugh] wow, that’s awesome.
Raju (27:48):
With the exact dimensions.
Will (27:49):
That’s tremendous.
That’s a great example.
Raju (27:51):
I think the reality is, people, it hasn’t completely grokped on people.
People aren’t using the applications to the extent it’s possible
to use today, but I think those kinds of things are quite powerful.
Then there’s an app that I’ve tried because I want to reduce
my spend at Sephora, it’s called Sephora Virtual Artist.
(28:11):
Have you seen this one?
Will (28:13):
No, I’m just thinking about what’s driving your spend at Sephora.
Raju (28:16):
Okay, I don’t spend any money at Sephora, but I’ve got a few… people in my
household, if you will say, that spend an exorbitant amount of money at Sephora.
And so, what this does is it basically allows you to try on makeup yourself.
Like, you can paint and it shows you what it’s going to look like on your
(28:38):
face, so if it’s, kind of, blush or some kind of foundation or something
like that, so that maybe you wind up selecting the one that fits perfectly.
It’s not ideal today, but I can sort of see this model where you can
actually leverage an application like this to try different types of
makeup, different types of nail polish, different types of eyeshadow
(29:01):
on, and it’ll gear you toward what shade is most appropriate for you.
It needs to get a level of granularity better before I think
people will actually use it, but I kind of see this as a trend.
And the third is, have you tried the Apple Maps or Google Maps
where you can actually hold up the phone, you can see what
(29:23):
you’re looking at, and it’ll point you to the right arrow?
Will (29:26):
Yeah.
Raju (29:26):
I think that to me is, like, happening.
Will (29:30):
Yeah.
So that, to me, is a huge unlock that we’re about to see a lot more of.
And whether it’s happening on the phone or happening on the glasses, the
ability to point a camera at something and learn about it is I think we’re
going to see that and it’s going to permeate a ton of settings right now.
And this is the use case I probably want most,
and you’ll be surprised at where I want it.
(29:52):
So I—
Raju (29:53):
I’m going to ask you—that’s a Gatling gun question, so hold it.
Hold it.
I’m going to ask you where you would be using this if you could.
Will (29:59):
Sure, sure.
Raju (30:00):
But, you know, so I kind of feel like that
consumer angle of things is going to happen.
You know, am I being too optimistic about the penetration?
I don’t think I’m doing too optimistic about mobile phone penetration.
I think that’s going to be everywhere, right?
Like, it is everywhere—
Will (30:15):
Right.
It is everywhere.
Raju (30:16):
—but like Google Glass, do you think
I’m being too optimistic about that, Will?
Will (30:21):
I’m not sure you’re going to see a dominant player in smart
eyewear the way you’ve seen a dominant player with the iPhone.
I think that you’re crossing fashion boundaries there in a way that—and the
whole eyewear industry—in a way that’s going to be hard for anyone to dominate.
Unless, unless we get to some extraordinary application unlock.
Raju (30:43):
Okay, great.
So, I’ll take that.
I’ll take that, and I’ll say, okay, let’s say it’s driven by—for the consumer
market at least—mobile phones, and in retail or consumer locations, mirrors.
Will (30:59):
Right.
Okay, sure.
Raju (31:01):
So, we’ll leave it at that for the time being.
Let’s talk a little bit about the enterprise applications that are driving this.
I’ve seen a number and they’re yet to take off, but in
the technician, you know, sort of industry, you know—
Will (31:17):
That’s right where I was about to go.
Yeah.
Raju (31:20):
Well, go there.
I’ll let you go there.
Will (31:21):
Well, the whole repair manual maintenance, break-fix business for any
kind of sophisticated system is already going from, you know, manuals on a
shelf, to a searchable database, to an AI queryable agent, to an AR experience
(31:46):
where wearing the glasses, you can look at the system, you can answer a
couple of questions, and the system diagnosis the problem so that the whole
judgment role of the technician is going to be changed by this technology.
And I think about, you know, sophisticated maintenance
problems, safety problems, you think about them like in
(32:06):
commercial airlines, or auto repair, or things like that.
I think that whole world is going to be changed by this technology.
Raju (32:13):
I agree.
Like, I think the bifurcation, the key bifurcation here I have is
mobile phones and mirrors—or displays, however you want to say it,
interactive displays—for the consumer market, but for the enterprise
market, for the business application market, I think you really
kind of need a Google Glass kind of interface for most of it.
(32:37):
And it’s a dedicated device, and you control a little bit of
the audience here and you kind of say, you have to wear it.
Here’s why I think it’s really going to blow up.
I think there’s a massive opportunity right now, and there’s a
massive problem coming very, very soon, which is that—the statistic
I saw is that within the next five years, you’re going to see 50% of
(33:02):
tradesmen—tradespeople—plumbers, HVAC, construction, electricians retiring.
Think about that stat.
50% of the people out there and—you know, we’re,
every place you look, I mean, buildings are going up,
buildings are being replaced, people need revamping done.
(33:24):
You lose 50% of that workforce, and we’ve got
a massive problem that needs to be solved.
And I got to tell you, it’s not going to
be solved in the next five years by robots.
Will (33:36):
No.
Raju (33:36):
The area where I think we have an opportunity—and I want somebody to
start this company or if there’s one out there already doing it to give me
a call—which is you can actually take junior craftsman wearing Google Glass,
supported by senior craftsman someplace else and you go to a workplace,
(33:57):
you go to Will Porteous’ house and you’re like, “I got to replace this
HVAC unit and it’s a very complicated thing.” And HVAC, you know, is the
most complicated of all because it’s electrical, it’s plumbing and it’s air
conditioning, all in one, and you’re looking at this unit, and you’ve got to
fix it, and you’re a junior technician wearing some Google Glass, and somebody
(34:19):
in the back room can see what you’re seeing, and it can actually guide you.
Will (34:23):
Well, and it’s like having a mentor looking over your shoulder.
The hands-on training opportunity is actually really
valuable as much as the extension of the skill set from
the master technician sitting in a central location.
So, to me, that’s a great example of a leveraged
skill set brought right to the situation it needs.
Raju (34:46):
Exactly.
And so, I think that always the issue is, hey, listen, you can’t
certify that this is, you know, done properly unless you’ve
get that master or senior technician to sort of certify it.
The junior person can be on site.
Will (35:00):
Yeah, I think that’s a great one.
Raju (35:02):
And you can use augmented reality.
I think there’s going to be a massive opportunity
that drives things like this in this industry.
So, I actually think that may be the single largest
driving use case for augmented reality in the near term.
And maybe there are others.
I’d love to hear from listeners.
(35:23):
I’d love to, I don’t know if you have any other ideas or
thoughts on where augmented reality is going to be used from
an enterprise standpoint, but love to hear them if you do.
Will (35:32):
Drop us a line.
We’d love to hear from you.
Raju (35:34):
Yeah, exactly.
All right.
So, any other points you want to make or you want to move to Gatling gun?
I’m going to move to Gatling gun.
I’m going to say—all right, if you had Google Glass, and
it wasn’t considered, like, a stigma, [laugh] you know, or—
Will (35:49):
If I loved wearing it and the world loved me wearing it, yeah [laugh]
. Raju: Yes.
And we love you no matter what—what would you like to do with it?
So, the use case I’ve wanted actually my whole working
career is a little bit of a weird one, which is I fly a lot.
You fly a lot.
On long flights, I tend to look out the window a lot, and I want
(36:12):
something to tell me what I’m looking at, like, as I look out the window.
And the people who provide in-flight
entertainment systems understand this, right?
The FlightAware app that tracks the plane across the
country is the most popular thing on people’s screens.
Actually, more people watch that than watch any of the most popular
(36:33):
movies because people are kind of into knowing exactly where they are.
But there’s only a little bit of information right now.
You can see cities.
Occasionally, you get on the best systems today on
planes, you get pop-ups that show you historical data.
Raju (36:45):
Your dog agrees.
Your dog agrees with this.
Will (36:50):
My dogs agree [laugh] . Sorry about that.
Raju (36:51):
It’s okay.
Will (36:51):
Anyway, I want to see, like, the
missile silos when I fly over the Southwest.
I want something to point out to me, like, all of the curious,
weird historical stuff that’s down there on the ground.
And the same goes for the way I want to tour a major foreign city.
I want to be able to walk, and look, and learn as I go, just like
(37:11):
you did in that museum tour example, going back 30 years or more.
It’s the experience of being able to walk and look and learn, or travel
and look and learn that I think will be so enriching with this technology.
Raju (37:23):
I love that.
I love that.
And that is so you.
You are just—
Will (37:26):
[laugh] . I know.
I know it is.
Raju (37:28):
—like, this sponge for knowledge.
You are such a sponge for knowledge.
You love learning, which actually makes you great at this job, frankly.
So, there are three things I would like from
Google Glass, assuming that there was no stigma.
One is I would love to have a calorie and a
protein counter on what I’ve eaten for the day.
(37:52):
I’d love that.
I’d love for it to look at the food, determine how many calories it is, and
tell me how much protein I’ve ingested, and how many calories I’ve ingested.
That’s number one.
Number two, when I go shopping, I’d love to be able to, do on this Google
Glass, see if I’m interested in a product, I just click a button or whatever,
(38:12):
and I see reviews and price comparisons to see if I’m getting a good deal.
Because it’s like that Indian bazaar in me.
My mom was like, “Never offer the first price.” You cannot say yes.
You walk away.
Immediately walk away.
Pretend that was awful, even though it was close
[laugh] . So, I need that price comparison and I need reviews.
(38:33):
And the third one’s really kind of controversial.
And I don’t know if it’ll ever be enabled.
Maybe not.
I wouldn’t say ever.
The world’s weird.
When I walk in a room, I’d like to know if I know someone
in the room or a friend of mine knows somebody in there.
And that one’s dicey because it means that people’s
(38:54):
personal information got to go to some cloud somewhere.
Will (38:59):
That one’s dicey, but it’s actually really easy think
about how you implement it [laugh] . I mean, I hate to say it,
but from the standpoint of the computer vision stack, plus your
social graph, plus LinkedIn, you’re basically there [laugh]
. Raju: Yeah.
And then people will rebel or revolt against it, but actually,
for me, I would be happy to let everybody know I’m in the room.
(39:22):
I would actually like to know if somebody I know or somebody
that my friends know are in the room because it just makes
life a little happier for me to be able to shake a hand.
Also criminal record lookup [laugh]
. Raju: Okay fine [laugh] . Maybe I don’t want that.
Maybe I don’t want that.
“There was this time way back when…” [laugh] . Anyway, okay.
(39:44):
Yeah, but I do think you’re onto something there.
Our environment is going to inform us more and
more about the setting that we’re walking into.
Risks, opportunities, people we need to know,
those things are going to change quickly.
Raju (40:01):
Yes, and I think that the hardware and the software
environment is ready to unlock some of this stuff soon.
So, I’m kind of looking forward to it.
I’ll let you wrap it up for us, Will.
Will (40:18):
Well, listeners, thanks for joining our brainstorm today
about augmented reality and the journey that we’re on with it.
We at RRE think this is a fascinating frontier.
We’ve obviously been watching it for a long time.
It’s a place that we will probably continue to be investing.
We welcome your thoughts and suggestions.
(40:40):
And most of all, thank you, as always, for listening to RRE POV.
We’re grateful for your support and look forward
to sharing another episode with you soon.
Take care.
Raju (40:51):
Thank you for listening to RRE POV.
You can keep up with the latest on the podcast at @RRE
on X or rre.com, and on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google
Podcasts, or wherever fine podcasts are distributed.
We’ll see you next time.
That went to my favorite of all time, which was Pokémon Go.
Did you ever play that with your kids?
Will (00:06):
A little bit, yeah.
But it was such a big unlock for the whole experience.
And again, the physical world unlock.
You’ve known me a long time.
You know that I’m obsessed with maps, and geospatial information,
and tying the digital to the physical, and that was like an
explosion of an experience, and a really rich one for Pokémon fans.
Raju (00:30):
Pokémon Go, man, that was something else.
I literally for, like, a year, I would just open up my phone,
no matter where I was, and see if there’s Pokémon around [laugh]
. I’m Raju Rishi.
Will (00:48):
And I’m Will Porteous.
Welcome to RRE POV, the show in which we record the
conversations we’re already having among ourselves, our
entrepreneurs, and industry leaders for you to listen in on.
Raju (01:03):
Hello, RRE POV listeners.
This is Raju Rishi with my partner, Will Porteous, and today, we’re
going to discuss the current and future state of augmented reality.
I’m a big believer that augmented reality will have a much more
profound near-term impact than virtual reality, for a number of reasons.
(01:25):
One, VR experiences require immersive headsets, which for
right now, are heavy and cumbersome and can only be worn
for a limited duration because of battery and dizziness.
And Will and I talked about this in a prior podcast
when we were evaluating the Apple Vision Pro.
Will (01:46):
Right, yeah.
Raju (01:47):
The second is, I think VR is still—and we talked about this
in that episode as well—is very much a single-player experience.
And I think augmented reality, on the other hand,
is simply supplementing your real-world experiences.
So, lighter weight and by definition, multiplayer, right?
I think—
Will (02:07):
Right.
Raju (02:07):
Real-world supplementation.
So anyway, I’m going to kick this off and
I’m just going to throw out a statement.
Like, what is augmented reality?
And this is sort of like the Encyclopedia Britannica definition, if you will.
Will (02:21):
Maybe you better define ‘Encyclopedia
Britannica’ for some of our listeners.
Raju (02:24):
Okay, fine.
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No one knows what it is.
All right—
Will (02:27):
The Wikipedia definition [laugh]
? Raju: The Wikipedia def—actually, I just went
to, I think, OpenAI, ChatGPT came up with this.
So, augmented reality is three things.
Overlays digital content, such as images, sounds, and other
sensory enhancements onto our real world in real time.
(02:50):
So, that’s actually the definition.
It has three key features (02:51):
one, seamless blending of digital content
with the physical world; two, a 3D registration—which I totally get.
It’s an accurate alignment of the virtual objects with
the real-world environment—and three, users can interact
with both real and virtual elements simultaneously.
(03:12):
So, that’s what ChatGPT says, and it’s
pulling from a bunch of different sources.
Will (03:17):
That’s a pretty good definition.
Raju (03:18):
Yeah, I think it is.
It’s basically, you got the real world and it’s throwing
an overlay of digital stuff onto it, and that digital stuff
can be images, sounds or, you know, video or other things.
It’s an accurate lock-in between the digital
and the physical, and it’s interactive.
So, that’s kind of what they say augmented reality is.
(03:39):
So, Will, I’m going to ask you some questions about your earliest
experiences with AR, anything that, you know, sort of comes to mind
of things that you experienced that was considered sort of biting
edge at the time, but, you know, kind of was sort of facilitating this
augmentation of either video or images or sound onto a realistic workspace.
Will (04:02):
So, I actually have an example that’s pre-technology, and
almost kind of Stone Age, which is the whole concept of geocaching.
If you think about sort of the idea behind the geocaching games and experiences,
it was all about finding something that was associated with a location.
(04:23):
And you were basically being given a clue to sort of go on with your journey.
It was the ultimate scavenger hunt.
And this existed before, really, we had mobile phones, and then once
we had mobile phones, it became a really intense, cool experience.
And there were some geocaching games that exploded like fads, 10 or 15
(04:43):
years ago, where you had a lot of urban geocaching happening in New York.
And with it, people began to provide supplemental
information about the places where things were hidden,
about where to go next, about the environment around them.
So, it’s beautiful that you started with the definition of augmented
reality because ultimately you’re providing a supplemental information
(05:07):
to inform the audience, the individual playing the game in this case,
about what’s around them, about things that they could do, about
history, about instructions, a richer experience of our physical world.
And to me, that is the, sort of, powerful starting point for
thinking about the augmented reality experience we could have.
Raju (05:29):
I want to talk about that more later because I love that example.
And I had started a company that was kind of using location-based
services to create experiences, and we looked at a bunch
of different startups that [fortunately] aren’t around.
But we’ll talk a little bit more about that later.
So, my earliest experience with augmented
realities is actually museum tours, with
(05:53):
the audio headsets that would basically—you would
walk into a room, something would be triggered.
I don’t even think it was Bluetooth back then; it was some kind of weird
shortwave radio that kind of hit the headphones, and it would start
playing, like, “You’re now in the dinosaur room.” [laugh] . It would start,
you know, like—it was just audio, but it was an augmented reality in the
(06:16):
sense that it was giving you, sort of, like, a talking tour of the museum.
So, that was my earliest indication, but there’s been a number, right?
And I’ll throw out a couple here.
In 1989, I bought a Nissan Maxima—
Will (06:31):
Oh, yeah [laugh]
? Raju: And it had a heads up display.
Uh-huh.
Oh, yeah.
Raju (06:35):
It was the first heads up display that existed.
Will (06:39):
1989?
Raju (06:41):
Yeah, 1989.
Will (06:42):
Wow.
Wow.
Raju (06:43):
There’s a Nissan 240SX or the Nissan Maxima, and it had a little
tiny heads up display in the dash or, like, the front windshield.
And obviously, like, a lot of the cars are having that.
The next one I remember is Snapchat filters [laugh]
. Will: Sure [laugh]
. Raju: Big gap in time.
Big gap in time.
(07:04):
But, you know, clearly, clearly, you know, something had happened.
And that… that went to my favorite of all time, which was Pokémon Go.
Did you ever play that with your kids?
Will (07:15):
A little bit, yeah.
But it was such a big unlock for the whole experience.
And again, the physical world unlock.
You’ve known me a long time.
You know that I’m obsessed with maps, and geospatial information,
and tying the digital to the physical, and that was like an
explosion of an experience, and a really rich one for Pokémon fans.
Raju (07:39):
Yeah.
I didn’t do the Snapchat filters all that much.
I mean, a little bit.
My daughters did a lot.
My sons, not as much, but my daughters a lot.
But Pokémon Go, man, that was something else.
I literally for, like, a year, I would just open up my phone,
no matter where I was, and see if there’s Pokémon around [laugh]
.And people kind of like—at first, I was like one of the early users.
(08:01):
Nobody knew what the heck was going on.
They thought it was insane.
And then everybody, kind of like, cracked their phones.
But actually, the coolest one, Will, if you’re just talking historical stuff,
have you ever been to Universal Studios in the Harry Potter, sort of, space?
Did you ever go to that?
Will (08:18):
No, no.
Tell me more.
Raju (08:19):
Okay.
So, you go to, like, Orlando and you go to Universal Studios,
there’s just, like, Harry Potter section, and you can buy a wand.
And you can wave the wand around and it gives you an interactive experience.
You know, like things in the exhibits would sort of
move based on different, sort of, functions of the wand.
(08:42):
And I haven’t been there, but this year, they just did 2.0 of these
interactive wands with haptic feedback and a bunch of other stuff going around.
So—
Will (08:53):
That’s pretty powerful.
Raju (08:55):
You know, like, to me, that is an example of augmented reality.
It’s just basically, you know, taking different media
types and overlaying it on top of what you’ve got.
So, you know, interesting.
All right, let’s go to the hardware.
I’m going to throw out some hardware, and I’ll
just ask if you had any experience with it.
Do you remember the MIT project called Sixth Sense?
Will (09:15):
Mm-hm.
Raju (09:16):
Okay.
So, this was spectacularly cool.
It was basically a device that, kind of, hung around your
neck and it had a camera, and a projector in it, and a
mirror, and you could basically project onto any surface.
It was reading your environment through the camera, and then it
(09:37):
was projecting onto a surface that you, you know, sort of directed—
Will (09:41):
Amazing.
Raju (09:42):
A bunch of data around your surroundings.
And I remember looking at the time and saying to
myself, “Man, this is going to be really cool.
I’m going to be able to take [basically] a computer that’s sitting on my neck
that I can, you know, basically derive information around my local settings.”
And that was sort of a lot of the genesis around where we went to next.
Will (10:03):
Well, that’s a beautiful example to start with because it kind of
decomposed the hardware functions into their constituent parts, right?
Raju (10:11):
Correct.
Will (10:12):
You needed a processor, you needed something
to gather insights, you needed something to provide
direction, and you needed a way to provide a display.
So, long before there were glasses involved in the
conversation or a phone screen in the conversation, you
had the decomposed device there in the Sixth Sense example.
Raju (10:30):
Absolutely.
It was kind of cool.
Basically, you needed a computing device, you need some sort
of input mechanism, which in this case was your hands, as
well as your surrounds—like it would look at your environment
and give you data about that—and then some sort of projector.
So, this was pre-Google Glass.
But then we had a bunch that came in a row (10:46):
Snapchat
Glasses, the Magic Leap device, and Google Glass.
Do you remember using any of those?
Did you try any of those on?
Will (10:57):
I played with Google Glass, yeah.
Raju (10:58):
Okay.
Did you like it?
What were your first impressions?
What was, sort of, the strengths and weaknesses of that product?
Will (11:04):
I liked that it was lightweight.
I liked that it felt like something I could wear all the time.
I didn’t like that it was kind of a kludgy interface.
I felt like there wasn’t enough that I could do with it.
And it all seemed to be kind of oriented towards interacting
with people, and people were kind of creeped out by it
(11:28):
[laugh]
. Raju: Oh, my God [laugh] . You’re absolutely right about that.
So unfortunately, it kind of turned you into a creep.
And like, I—so I didn’t want to be that guy.
Raju (11:36):
Ahh.
Will (11:36):
So—
Raju (11:39):
I know.
Isn’t that so true?
Will (11:40):
It kind of highlights the social the
socialization element that has to go with this.
It’s part of the reason that I actually think a lot of this stuff will find
its first traction in industrial settings and business-to-business settings.
And we’ll get into all of that later, I’m sure.
Raju (11:54):
Yes, we will.
Yes, we will.
Yeah, I had the Google Glass.
I had tried it on, and I found that it was exactly what I wanted in many
ways, like, the lightweight nature of it, it gave you kind of a visual
display without people sort of seeing what you were seeing, but there
wasn’t a lot of applications at the time that created enough value for me.
(12:17):
And so, I still think it’s got a shot at
success, but it did have a creepiness factor.
And if you remember, the Snapchat Glasses came out shortly thereafter,
and it tried to create this coolness factor, but they were kind of bulky.
Will (12:31):
Well, yeah.
And so, if you draw a line through those data
points, you inevitably get to the Meta Ray-Bans.
And there, they partnered with a cool brand, an established
brand that was known for its coolness, to a point.
And that, I think, has provided something of an entry point into smart glasses.
Now, there’s a lot to be done before that really is unlocking augmented
(12:53):
reality, but you’ve got to get glasses on people’s faces or you’ve got to get
screens in front of people’s eyes to really make this experience energized.
Raju (13:02):
Yeah, I actually have the Meta Ray-Bans.
I like them a lot.
I can use them as an actual regular pair of sunglasses.
Will (13:07):
There you go.
So, they have a basic utility before anything else.
Raju (13:11):
Exactly.
And they don’t look bad, right?
I mean, they actually look nice on the face.
And you don’t kind of obviously know that it’s a Meta Ray-Ban.
If you are recording, it just does shine a light and,
you know, everything like that, which… a little creepy.
Will (13:26):
So, it’s sort of like they put a little siren on your head [laugh]
. Raju: [laugh] . Exactly.
You got this big hat, you know?
“Hellooo?”
The siren goes off if anything unusual is going on [laugh]
. Raju: “Recording taking place.” [laugh] . Exactly.
But the form factor is pretty good.
(13:48):
So, you know, I tried the Google Glass.
I thought the form factor was good, but it looked a little creepy.
I think the Meta looks closer to something I would wear on a regular daily
basis, has a utility and a function outside of just providing that information.
The battery life is getting better, which I really, really like.
(14:10):
And they’re kind of really being thoughtful
about the kinds of data that you want.
You know, I want to listen to music.
It’s kind of—I don’t have to put in an earpiece; I can
actually listen to music while I’m wearing this thing.
I can hear my messages, which is kind of, you
know, interesting while I’m sitting at the beach.
Did you try the Magic Leap glasses?
I never did, no.
Raju (14:29):
Okay.
I didn’t either.
We were actually investors, small investors,
very minority investors in this thing.
I saw some of the videos, and I was kind of blown away, where, like,
you have this that you’re sitting in a gymnasium and you see a whale
kind of jumping out of the, you know, floor, but it never really
materialized to the level that people thought it was going to be.
(14:50):
I think it was just that it was too ahead of its skis, you know, in many ways.
Will (14:56):
Yeah, I mean, from a startup standpoint, I think
this whole sector has suffered a bit from just the
need to have all the constituent parts come together.
And what it needs most is a hardware platform
that people really feel comfortable with.
The best so far, I think we’ve got is Meta Ray-Bans.
We need that as a substrate for other things to unlock.
(15:19):
And no amount of money—and Magic Leap raised a lot of
money—could be enough to forward-enable that market development.
It just had to happen over time.
And it took a powerful player to make it, sort of, broadly accessible.
Raju (15:33):
Yeah.
I’m going to throw out one more piece of hardware, and then we can
move on to sort of the software side of things a little bit, which
I consider to be augmented reality, and you tell me whether you
think it is or not, which is, like, the Mirror or Tonal product.
Will (15:49):
I… don’t—so I have a Mirror.
I don’t think—I don’t consider it an augmented reality product.
I consider it a display, and a display that creates almost like a
hologram kind of experience, but it’s a pretty limited world that it’s in.
Tell me why you think it fits the AR definition.
Raju (16:09):
Because I feel like, you know, I don’t know if the variants
that are out there, you know, provide feedback, but it can give
you—whether you’re wearing Google Glass or not, it’s a mirror that’s
giving you feedback on whether your exercise is being done properly.
Will (16:24):
Right.
So, I think that’s more Tonal than Mirror.
Raju (16:27):
Yeah, it’s more Tonal than Mirror, I think.
It’s kind of an interesting use case to me.
It’s not sort of like this incredibly, like, diverse use case.
It’s just relegated to, like, a working out kind of schema.
Will (16:38):
But you’ve got a great concept there, which is, you know, if something
can give you feedback, then it is really changing and shaping your reality.
It is augmenting your reality.
So, you know, when the screen tells you to, you
know, lower your heels to work on your downward dog.
You’ve changed the experience.
Raju (16:55):
Love downward dog.
Love downward dog.
That’s just because it’s easy to remember.
Like a downward dog.
Will (17:01):
Right, but it’s not easy for everyone to do,
thus the need for the personalized instruction.
Raju (17:07):
I think if you’re Indian, it’s kind of inherent.
Will (17:10):
[laugh] . I’m sure.
Raju (17:10):
It’s just built in.
It’s just built in.
Will (17:12):
Super downward dog.
Raju (17:13):
Have you seen these mirrors in stores?
I think they had it at Uniqlo where you can
put on a jacket and it would change the color.
You could change it to any color.
Will (17:21):
Oh no, I haven’t seen that.
Oh, that’s cool.
Raju (17:23):
So, to me, that’s, like, an extantiation of that.
Like if you can put on an outfit and they give you, sort of, this,
you know, sort of whatever, like, beige-looking thing and you can
see what it looks like on you, in different shades and colors,
without actually having to have all that inventory in store.
You know, to me, that’s kind of an interesting
(17:45):
use of augmented reality in a mirror-type device.
Will (17:48):
Can it show you what you’d look like if you lose ten pounds [laugh]
? Raju: Oh, my God.
Yeah, that would be fantastic.
Can
it just make you lose ten pounds [laugh]
? Will: “Brought to you by Novo Nordisk.” [laugh]
. Raju: [laugh] . Oh, that’s too funny.
Okay, so that’s kind of the evolution of the hardware that I remember, you know.
(18:08):
I’m sure I’m missing something.
I’m sure we’re missing something, but I kind
of feel like that’s where things are headed.
Like, there’s going to be a device on your body.
It’s probably in the form of some kind of glass,
whether it’s translucent or sunglass-based.
There’s going to be a bunch of mirrors out there that are going to be
able to provide, you know, some views into yourself, whether it’s like,
(18:29):
hey, you know, like, this is what this clothing would look like on you.
This is what the shoes would look like on you.
And it’s also going to be your phone, which we didn’t talk about, but
the phones all have AR kits in it and have a bunch of stuff in it.
So, those are kind of the three that I’m envisioning,
you know, sort of being out there to provide this.
(18:50):
So, I’m glad you brought up the phone because I think it has a
place in this world, and yet AR conversation raises the question about
the future of the phone screen as the dominant screen in your life, right?
So, we live with a continuum right now—I know you
and I do—between desktop, laptop, tablet, and phone.
(19:13):
And I tend to center on laptop and phone.
But if this becomes an information interface—my glasses become an
information interface—that will take share from the others, and
I think principally when we’re talking about AR, from the phone.
Raju (19:28):
Yeah.
I actually think there’s going to be multiple devices, right?
I think your car windshield will become an
augmented reality screen, no matter what.
I think it’s going to tell you what speed you’re going, I think
it’s going to tell you that red light going to come up in a little
while, or you’re turning the bend, and it’ll have some view of
(19:51):
whether there’s a deer out there or the—you know, it’ll give you a
display of where the car—you know, your map might be on there, right?
Your Apple Maps might be displayed on that at some point, as
opposed to sort of on this screen that sits adjacent to you.
So, I think that’s going to become a device.
I think there are going to be mirrors, whether it’s working out or for
(20:12):
retail or for whatever; I think there’s going to be a phone out there
that’s going to have, you know, sort of this virtual augmented reality
piece to it; and then I think there’s going to be these head-wearables,
whether it’s a Google Glass or something like that or a Meta Ray-Ban.
So, all right.
I remember—let’s talk about the application frontier, which is, I think,
(20:36):
you know, sort of the most interesting to us as early-stage investors
with our fun size, we’re going to look at the application layers.
And I remember a bunch of startups out there, and I’ll talk about a
few of them, and Maybe you can talk about others or maybe you’ve seen
these, but I remember in 2004, there was a company called Yellow Arrow.
(20:56):
It was Jesse Shapins, and Christopher Allen, and Brian House.
Basically, in New York City and other places around the country—and
world, frankly—you would see this little yellow arrow, and if you
brought the Yellow Arrow app close to it or QR code or whatever you
wanted to call it, it would give you hidden stories about that exact
location that people could create, and experiences that people had.
(21:21):
It was kind of this really interesting, before we had QR codes, this existed.
It was kind of this innovative platform to basically give you
additional insights about where you were stand at the time.
And I remember there was this offshoot startup that got
created after that, which was called Virtual Sticky Notes.
(21:45):
I had started this company along with two other
co-founders called Rave Wireless, and Rave Wireless was
using location-based services at university settings.
It could tell you a bunch of information using location, like,
your location, and it could tell the location of your friends.
So, it could tell you, like, hey, your friend network
(22:06):
is at the pub, or most of them at the library.
You knew where to go if you wanted to meet up.
One of the things we were looking at doing
was this notion of virtual sticky notes.
So, if I declared my friend network on college campus,
I could leave little sticky notes in particular
(22:27):
locations that only my friends would get an alert about.
Will (22:32):
Such a great idea.
Raju (22:33):
Yeah, exactly.
And I really, really love this idea.
And, you know, as you know, we had a bunch of different cool
concepts that we were basically rolling out on college campuses.
One of them, if you were in my friend network,
Will, which you would absolutely be in and you are—
Will (22:53):
I’d be thrilled to be in your friend network.
Raju (22:54):
Yeah, oh, you’re in there.
You’d be, like… the top five.
I might put my family members a little bit ahead of you, but you’d be top five.
So, if you walked into a pub, you might get a little pop-up that says,
hey, the bartender’s name is Jeff, and if you talk to him about the
Buffalo Sabres, you’ll get a free drink because he’s a huge Sabres fan.
(23:14):
And we started doing this on college campuses.
Unfortunately, we had to narrow our scope of function at Rave because
Virginia Tech happened and Northern Illinois happened, so we wound up
focusing our company very, very aggressively around safety and using
location-based safety applications like Rave Guardian and others.
But that notion of virtual sticky notes is something that was sort of created.
(23:40):
And there was a company called Stray Boots—I don’t know if you
remember Stray Boots?—Stray Boots was virtual tour guides that
would basically use your location, and once you hit another
location, it would tell you go to this particular location.
It would be a tour guide for the city.
It would unlock a little bits of trivia
(24:01):
when you reached that particular location.
It was sticky notes, but more for that tour guide notion of things.
Early days of startups leveraging augmented reality for—and
we were doing it at Rave with this notion of sticky notes.
Anything that you recall back then that was sort of like a…
Will (24:22):
Well, I spent a lot of time with Dennis
Crowley, the founder of Foursquare in the early days.
And Foursquare was a phenomenon in its day, and one that really
anchored people’s mobile devices to the physical world around them, and
(24:43):
engaged them in games, and provided some information and all of that.
The explosive growth that they saw—and Dennis and I spent a
lot of time talking about it—was explosive growth, I think, was
testament to the fact that people really want this kind of utility.
They want to engage physically with the world around them.
And we actually leveraged that to launch a company in this space.
(25:05):
We seeded a company called Hot Potato, which was really about
sharing live information about what you’re doing with your friends.
Along the lines of what you’re describing with Rave and Yellow Arrow.
And Hot Potato had a short, exciting life.
It was acquired by Meta, a lot of that team went on to do great
(25:26):
things at Meta because I think Meta as a company really understands
the social dimension of sharing this kind of information.
Lots of important pioneers here.
Some didn’t quite monetize, but broke a lot
of ground from an application standpoint.
Raju (25:40):
Absolutely.
And so, I agree with you.
I think this—you know, this podcast is focused on augmented reality,
and the proposition is that, like, the timing is right, now.
I think that when you look at virtual reality, and you think about the Apple
(26:00):
Vision Pro, and you think about the Meta Quest, and those devices, and that
immersive environment where you’re going to a different location, you’re
completely experiencing something else, I think the challenges that exist
with that is, it’s still single player, as you said, and it’s very discrete.
You do it for a period of time, the headset gets weighty on you.
(26:23):
I think augmented reality is on the precipice for success because I
think the tools exist inside of the mobile phones to basically do some
of the things that I think we’re going to talk about in a few minutes.
I think that you’ve got the Ray-Bans and the next
iterations of those Google Glass devices coming out, and
(26:44):
I think they’re going to be bifurcated in two dimensions.
And I’ll also say, so the heads-up displays on the
cars and on the mirrors are going to be out there.
So, the hardware is not terribly out of whack with cost, but
I think the applications are going to sit on two frontiers.
I think one of the sets of applications is going to be more
(27:06):
consumer-driven, and the second set is going to be more enterprise-driven.
I want to start with the consumer side of things because I
see a bunch of opportunity, and there’s a handful of use cases
that I’m seeing starting, but I think that they will continue.
Have you seen the IKEA Place app, Will?
Will (27:29):
No, tell me.
Raju (27:31):
It’s pretty cool.
You take out your IKEA—it’s an app on your phone, and you can browse
through IKEA’s catalog, and you can look at your room, and it can actually
show their furniture inside of your house or inside of a particular room.
Will (27:46):
Oh, [laugh] wow, that’s awesome.
Raju (27:48):
With the exact dimensions.
Will (27:49):
That’s tremendous.
That’s a great example.
Raju (27:51):
I think the reality is, people, it hasn’t completely grokped on people.
People aren’t using the applications to the extent it’s possible
to use today, but I think those kinds of things are quite powerful.
Then there’s an app that I’ve tried because I want to reduce
my spend at Sephora, it’s called Sephora Virtual Artist.
(28:11):
Have you seen this one?
Will (28:13):
No, I’m just thinking about what’s driving your spend at Sephora.
Raju (28:16):
Okay, I don’t spend any money at Sephora, but I’ve got a few… people in my
household, if you will say, that spend an exorbitant amount of money at Sephora.
And so, what this does is it basically allows you to try on makeup yourself.
Like, you can paint and it shows you what it’s going to look like on your
(28:38):
face, so if it’s, kind of, blush or some kind of foundation or something
like that, so that maybe you wind up selecting the one that fits perfectly.
It’s not ideal today, but I can sort of see this model where you can
actually leverage an application like this to try different types of
makeup, different types of nail polish, different types of eyeshadow
(29:01):
on, and it’ll gear you toward what shade is most appropriate for you.
It needs to get a level of granularity better before I think
people will actually use it, but I kind of see this as a trend.
And the third is, have you tried the Apple Maps or Google Maps
where you can actually hold up the phone, you can see what
(29:23):
you’re looking at, and it’ll point you to the right arrow?
Will (29:26):
Yeah.
Raju (29:26):
I think that to me is, like, happening.
Will (29:30):
Yeah.
So that, to me, is a huge unlock that we’re about to see a lot more of.
And whether it’s happening on the phone or happening on the glasses, the
ability to point a camera at something and learn about it is I think we’re
going to see that and it’s going to permeate a ton of settings right now.
And this is the use case I probably want most,
and you’ll be surprised at where I want it.
(29:52):
So I—
Raju (29:53):
I’m going to ask you—that’s a Gatling gun question, so hold it.
Hold it.
I’m going to ask you where you would be using this if you could.
Will (29:59):
Sure, sure.
Raju (30:00):
But, you know, so I kind of feel like that
consumer angle of things is going to happen.
You know, am I being too optimistic about the penetration?
I don’t think I’m doing too optimistic about mobile phone penetration.
I think that’s going to be everywhere, right?
Like, it is everywhere—
Will (30:15):
Right.
It is everywhere.
Raju (30:16):
—but like Google Glass, do you think
I’m being too optimistic about that, Will?
Will (30:21):
I’m not sure you’re going to see a dominant player in smart
eyewear the way you’ve seen a dominant player with the iPhone.
I think that you’re crossing fashion boundaries there in a way that—and the
whole eyewear industry—in a way that’s going to be hard for anyone to dominate.
Unless, unless we get to some extraordinary application unlock.
Raju (30:43):
Okay, great.
So, I’ll take that.
I’ll take that, and I’ll say, okay, let’s say it’s driven by—for the consumer
market at least—mobile phones, and in retail or consumer locations, mirrors.
Will (30:59):
Right.
Okay, sure.
Raju (31:01):
So, we’ll leave it at that for the time being.
Let’s talk a little bit about the enterprise applications that are driving this.
I’ve seen a number and they’re yet to take off, but in
the technician, you know, sort of industry, you know—
Will (31:17):
That’s right where I was about to go.
Yeah.
Raju (31:20):
Well, go there.
I’ll let you go there.
Will (31:21):
Well, the whole repair manual maintenance, break-fix business for any
kind of sophisticated system is already going from, you know, manuals on a
shelf, to a searchable database, to an AI queryable agent, to an AR experience
(31:46):
where wearing the glasses, you can look at the system, you can answer a
couple of questions, and the system diagnosis the problem so that the whole
judgment role of the technician is going to be changed by this technology.
And I think about, you know, sophisticated maintenance
problems, safety problems, you think about them like in
(32:06):
commercial airlines, or auto repair, or things like that.
I think that whole world is going to be changed by this technology.
Raju (32:13):
I agree.
Like, I think the bifurcation, the key bifurcation here I have is
mobile phones and mirrors—or displays, however you want to say it,
interactive displays—for the consumer market, but for the enterprise
market, for the business application market, I think you really
kind of need a Google Glass kind of interface for most of it.
(32:37):
And it’s a dedicated device, and you control a little bit of
the audience here and you kind of say, you have to wear it.
Here’s why I think it’s really going to blow up.
I think there’s a massive opportunity right now, and there’s a
massive problem coming very, very soon, which is that—the statistic
I saw is that within the next five years, you’re going to see 50% of
(33:02):
tradesmen—tradespeople—plumbers, HVAC, construction, electricians retiring.
Think about that stat.
50% of the people out there and—you know, we’re,
every place you look, I mean, buildings are going up,
buildings are being replaced, people need revamping done.
(33:24):
You lose 50% of that workforce, and we’ve got
a massive problem that needs to be solved.
And I got to tell you, it’s not going to
be solved in the next five years by robots.
Will (33:36):
No.
Raju (33:36):
The area where I think we have an opportunity—and I want somebody to
start this company or if there’s one out there already doing it to give me
a call—which is you can actually take junior craftsman wearing Google Glass,
supported by senior craftsman someplace else and you go to a workplace,
(33:57):
you go to Will Porteous’ house and you’re like, “I got to replace this
HVAC unit and it’s a very complicated thing.” And HVAC, you know, is the
most complicated of all because it’s electrical, it’s plumbing and it’s air
conditioning, all in one, and you’re looking at this unit, and you’ve got to
fix it, and you’re a junior technician wearing some Google Glass, and somebody
(34:19):
in the back room can see what you’re seeing, and it can actually guide you.
Will (34:23):
Well, and it’s like having a mentor looking over your shoulder.
The hands-on training opportunity is actually really
valuable as much as the extension of the skill set from
the master technician sitting in a central location.
So, to me, that’s a great example of a leveraged
skill set brought right to the situation it needs.
Raju (34:46):
Exactly.
And so, I think that always the issue is, hey, listen, you can’t
certify that this is, you know, done properly unless you’ve
get that master or senior technician to sort of certify it.
The junior person can be on site.
Will (35:00):
Yeah, I think that’s a great one.
Raju (35:02):
And you can use augmented reality.
I think there’s going to be a massive opportunity
that drives things like this in this industry.
So, I actually think that may be the single largest
driving use case for augmented reality in the near term.
And maybe there are others.
I’d love to hear from listeners.
(35:23):
I’d love to, I don’t know if you have any other ideas or
thoughts on where augmented reality is going to be used from
an enterprise standpoint, but love to hear them if you do.
Will (35:32):
Drop us a line.
We’d love to hear from you.
Raju (35:34):
Yeah, exactly.
All right.
So, any other points you want to make or you want to move to Gatling gun?
I’m going to move to Gatling gun.
I’m going to say—all right, if you had Google Glass, and
it wasn’t considered, like, a stigma, [laugh] you know, or—
Will (35:49):
If I loved wearing it and the world loved me wearing it, yeah [laugh]
. Raju: Yes.
And we love you no matter what—what would you like to do with it?
So, the use case I’ve wanted actually my whole working
career is a little bit of a weird one, which is I fly a lot.
You fly a lot.
On long flights, I tend to look out the window a lot, and I want
(36:12):
something to tell me what I’m looking at, like, as I look out the window.
And the people who provide in-flight
entertainment systems understand this, right?
The FlightAware app that tracks the plane across the
country is the most popular thing on people’s screens.
Actually, more people watch that than watch any of the most popular
(36:33):
movies because people are kind of into knowing exactly where they are.
But there’s only a little bit of information right now.
You can see cities.
Occasionally, you get on the best systems today on
planes, you get pop-ups that show you historical data.
Raju (36:45):
Your dog agrees.
Your dog agrees with this.
Will (36:50):
My dogs agree [laugh] . Sorry about that.
Raju (36:51):
It’s okay.
Will (36:51):
Anyway, I want to see, like, the
missile silos when I fly over the Southwest.
I want something to point out to me, like, all of the curious,
weird historical stuff that’s down there on the ground.
And the same goes for the way I want to tour a major foreign city.
I want to be able to walk, and look, and learn as I go, just like
(37:11):
you did in that museum tour example, going back 30 years or more.
It’s the experience of being able to walk and look and learn, or travel
and look and learn that I think will be so enriching with this technology.
Raju (37:23):
I love that.
I love that.
And that is so you.
You are just—
Will (37:26):
[laugh] . I know.
I know it is.
Raju (37:28):
—like, this sponge for knowledge.
You are such a sponge for knowledge.
You love learning, which actually makes you great at this job, frankly.
So, there are three things I would like from
Google Glass, assuming that there was no stigma.
One is I would love to have a calorie and a
protein counter on what I’ve eaten for the day.
(37:52):
I’d love that.
I’d love for it to look at the food, determine how many calories it is, and
tell me how much protein I’ve ingested, and how many calories I’ve ingested.
That’s number one.
Number two, when I go shopping, I’d love to be able to, do on this Google
Glass, see if I’m interested in a product, I just click a button or whatever,
(38:12):
and I see reviews and price comparisons to see if I’m getting a good deal.
Because it’s like that Indian bazaar in me.
My mom was like, “Never offer the first price.” You cannot say yes.
You walk away.
Immediately walk away.
Pretend that was awful, even though it was close
[laugh] . So, I need that price comparison and I need reviews.
(38:33):
And the third one’s really kind of controversial.
And I don’t know if it’ll ever be enabled.
Maybe not.
I wouldn’t say ever.
The world’s weird.
When I walk in a room, I’d like to know if I know someone
in the room or a friend of mine knows somebody in there.
And that one’s dicey because it means that people’s
(38:54):
personal information got to go to some cloud somewhere.
Will (38:59):
That one’s dicey, but it’s actually really easy think
about how you implement it [laugh] . I mean, I hate to say it,
but from the standpoint of the computer vision stack, plus your
social graph, plus LinkedIn, you’re basically there [laugh]
. Raju: Yeah.
And then people will rebel or revolt against it, but actually,
for me, I would be happy to let everybody know I’m in the room.
(39:22):
I would actually like to know if somebody I know or somebody
that my friends know are in the room because it just makes
life a little happier for me to be able to shake a hand.
Also criminal record lookup [laugh]
. Raju: Okay fine [laugh] . Maybe I don’t want that.
Maybe I don’t want that.
“There was this time way back when…” [laugh] . Anyway, okay.
(39:44):
Yeah, but I do think you’re onto something there.
Our environment is going to inform us more and
more about the setting that we’re walking into.
Risks, opportunities, people we need to know,
those things are going to change quickly.
Raju (40:01):
Yes, and I think that the hardware and the software
environment is ready to unlock some of this stuff soon.
So, I’m kind of looking forward to it.
I’ll let you wrap it up for us, Will.
Will (40:18):
Well, listeners, thanks for joining our brainstorm today
about augmented reality and the journey that we’re on with it.
We at RRE think this is a fascinating frontier.
We’ve obviously been watching it for a long time.
It’s a place that we will probably continue to be investing.
We welcome your thoughts and suggestions.
(40:40):
And most of all, thank you, as always, for listening to RRE POV.
We’re grateful for your support and look forward
to sharing another episode with you soon.
Take care.
Raju (40:51):
Thank you for listening to RRE POV.
You can keep up with the latest on the podcast at @RRE
on X or rre.com, and on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google
Podcasts, or wherever fine podcasts are distributed.
We’ll see you next time.
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