October 28, 2025 • 29 mins
Big shifts are landing across Australia’s retail and hospitality training packages, and we’re breaking down what actually matters for RTOs, trainers, and learners. Angela sits with returning guest Lauren Hollows to dig into what’s changing in SIR and SIT, why this reform cycle feels different, and the practical steps you can take now to protect funding, simplify assessment, and improve outcomes. The core story is transparency: using the Markup platform, anyone can see and respond to unit-level feedback in real time, creating a visible trail of what gets accepted, what doesn’t, and why. That’s a big win for industry voice and a chance to cut duplication, update outdated terminology, and design assessments that reflect real kitchens, real stores, and real budgets.
We walk through the nuts and bolts that keep leaders up at night. For hospitality, repetitive unit design drives cost and confusion; we outline ways to streamline demonstrations without watering down standards. For retail, we challenge rigid prerequisites that shut out experienced supervisors, and offer sane alternatives grounded in current work roles. Then we get tactical: how to use draft releases as an 80–90 percent guide, plan dual delivery across staggered state timelines, choose between dual tools and gap assessments, and keep a crisp communication plan that reassures students, employers, and staff from day one.
You’ll also hear how to request apprenticeship extensions, set up governance rhythms that produce compliance evidence, and plug into essential alerts on training.gov.au. And if SIT, SIR, SHB, or CUA sit on your scope, don’t miss the SAXA national roadshow for direct consultation in every major city. Bring your top five unit pain points and leave with clearer options for 2025 delivery. If you’re ready to move from reacting to leading, this conversation is your playbook for a clean transition and stronger training products.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:53):
Welcome to the RTO Superhero Podcast with me,
Angela Connell Richards, and myspecial guest, Lauren Hollows.
Welcome again, Lauren.
Hi guys.
Thanks for having me back.
So awesome having you onlineagain.
So today's uh topic is going tobe the changes in training
packages.
And uh Lauren is doing a specialroadshow on um, she's joining a
(01:17):
roadshow on the changes andthings like that.
So we thought this would be agreat opportunity to tap into
Lauren's brain about what's umwhat's happening and in
particular uh Lauren'sspecialty, the SIR and the SIT
training packages.
So let's get started.
Uh so both the SIR and SITtraining packages are going
(01:40):
through major updates.
Can you give me an overview ofwhat's changing and why?
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Yeah, so um I I and Y has been lucky enough to be
working with um SAXA, which isService and Creative Skills
Australia, um, for the lastcouple of months.
We have actually been working onthe SHB training package, which
is for addressing barbering andsalon management, but I know
that there are lots of otherteams at the moment working on
dance, and the two big onescoming out are SIR and SIT, and
(02:07):
I believe that they're going tobe launching um next week.
Um, so I'm very excited toactually see what the Saxa team
has done to those productsbecause we've got um, I think
that they're they're coveringall of the coississery,
commercial cookery retails inthe scope um uh based on their
website and everything likethat.
(02:28):
And obviously, these arequalifications that are just
huge in our industry.
Um and you know, will obviouslyhave a major impact and have an
impact on internationals and ondomestics, and um SACS has done
a huge amount of consultation.
I know I've I've sat in on someof those consultations so far.
Um, I'm gonna be joining theirroadshow um for you know as one
(02:49):
of their SHB representatives,but I will be sitting in on all
of the SIR, SIT ones as wellbecause Anawire will be
rewriting all of thoseassessment tools when the new
units come out.
So the more heads up we have onthe changes and everything like
that, the the easier our job isgonna make us.
And I think the thing that I'veactually um really been excited
(03:10):
about, like I've beencomplaining about training
packages for legitimately yearsnow, um, about all the things in
them that I find frustrating andyou know not actually meeting
industry requirements.
Yeah, and I mean like theslowness of the process is I
know something that everyone hasalways had.
And I know pre in previous timesI've provided feedback and
(03:33):
others have provided feedback,and there's always kind of been
a sense of, well, I providedfeedback, but I don't know what
happened to it.
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
Um, and so I You said it was a different process
this time, more transparent.
SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
So, like I know that with um like with Saxa, it's
going onto a system calledMarkup.
And so with Markup, basicallyeveryone can go in, they've they
have to nominate who they are,it's not anonymous, but then
they can provide feedback onindividual units.
And not only can we see can Isee my feedback, but I can see
(04:04):
your feedback that you put up,or I can see industries, you
know, an industry member'sfeedback that they put up.
And so I'm really excited to seesort of the iterative part of
this process whereby someoneputs an idea out there and
people can then jump onto thatidea and go, yeah, I love that,
I love that, I love that, orhey, but what about this?
(04:25):
Or I I kind of disagree with youa little bit because of X, Y,
and Z.
Um, and so I'm excited to seesort of like an almost online
live debate happening over theseunits and how that then feeds
into making these units better.
Um, because you know, over theyears, like I sat it on a
(04:46):
telecommunications oneyesterday.
Um it was yesterday, I don'tknow.
Um, but I sat it ontelecommunications because
telecommunications is beingupdated again.
And so, you know, that there'slike 180 units that they're
updating.
And and one of the things thatthey recommended in that one,
they were like, oh, well, wewant to get rid of some of these
imported units.
(05:07):
Um and, you know, a couple ofpeople were like, yeah, okay,
cool.
And I was like, no, no, no, no,no.
But if I've got RTOs deliveringthose, and if you remove those
imported units, then we'veactually got to add them onto
SPO.
And that's more of anadministrative workload for us.
And the gentleman who wasrunning it, a gentleman called
Dominic Champano, um, who's abig industry person in that
(05:29):
sector, he was like, Oh, that'sfair feedback.
We'll go and take a look at thatbefore we kind of further that
recommendation.
Um, and so I think just ingeneral, the experience that
I've had with both FSO, which isFuture Skills Organization, and
SAXA is that there's a lot ofpeople that kind of come from
RTO world or have orbited RTOworld and understand that
(05:55):
feedback and feeling thatfeedback is actually really well
received has been an issue inthe past.
And so the way that I'm seeingsome of the JSCs engage at the
moment uh is actually excitingbecause I do feel like RTOs and
um organizations and individualsand industry really do have a
(06:17):
chance to like sit and haveinput.
And I know that like I've youknow, we we we've got a meeting
for one of my RTOs that's gonnasit down with um FSO on this
telecommunications project andand go through some key units
and some really specificfeedback on like this this
particular like RJ45 is not aterm that's used anymore, or
(06:38):
this is not a term that's usedanymore, or this is not a
technology, this technology hasnow been superseded.
We don't we don't fix theseunits anymore, we just replace
them, right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (06:47):
So I think that's there's just a very different
approach that I'm seeing withsome of the JSCs in terms of
really taking on that feedbackum and really wanting to
implement and provide productsthat are different.
And I don't know if that'sacross all of the JSCs, but
certainly with FSO and with umuh with Saxa, I'm I I've been
(07:13):
more, I've been far moreintimately involved than I ever
have in the past, and I'm havinga much better understanding of
all the stuff that has to happenbehind the scenes.
And part of that is in responseto what's called a new TPOF or
new training package organizingframework, whereby the
government's saying, look,you've got to go out and you've
got to do all of this industryconsultation, you need to
(07:33):
listen, you need to actually,you know, uh write out every
single fit piece of feedbackyou've received and whether or
not you've actioned it, whetheryou agreed with it, whether or
not you disagreed with it.
And if you disagree with it, whydo you disagree with it?
So it's gonna be interesting tosee when these training products
release.
Um there are some new formats.
There's a new format A, which isvery similar to what we've got
(07:55):
now, and then there's a formatB, which will remove performance
criteria and elements andreplace them with knowledge and
skills.
Um so big changes for RTOs in,you know, again, more changes
for RTOs in terms of, you know,having to you know build and
redevelop and everything likethat, but also I think huge
(08:15):
opportunities um to really belistened to.
And, you know, if you're an RTOin and you are doing, you know,
you you do deliver dents orhospitality or retail, um, you
know, when these productslaunch, it's all available on
the on the Saxa websites,available on the FSO websites.
We've had really good responserates of like reaching out and
(08:36):
going, hey, I've got this RTO,I've got this industry guys that
really they want to sit down andthey want to give you feedback
for an hour on these specificunits.
And both FSO and and SAXA havebeen really responsive to go,
yep, okay, cool, let's set thatmeeting up and let's go through
that.
And I've never had thatexperience before.
Um, and I'm you know, I'mexcited to see the result of
(08:57):
that product.
SPEAKER_02 (08:58):
So all of this has been driven by the VET reform.
And uh, you know, we we hadchange in legislation because it
was what they had identified asthe training that was being
delivered wasn't actuallymeeting industry needs, and um,
and then we had the change inlegislation, and that's where
they're now going with thetraining packages.
(09:20):
From what you've seen so far,has uh are they aligning more
with the industry skillshortages and the gaps that are
uh have been identified withinin particular the SIR, which is
retail, and SIT, which ishospitality.
What are the what are theindustry impacts that you're
(09:41):
seeing on on these trainingpackages that are making a
difference?
SPEAKER_01 (09:45):
So um, yeah, so again, so I I'm I've been I've
been working within SHB, whichis hairdressing and barbering.
Um there's a different set ofconsultants that's working with
Saxa to do the SIR and the SIT.
In the initial consultationsthat I've sat in, because they
did run a range of initialpublic consultations, um, I
understand that they're lookingat streaming.
(10:07):
Um, so moving like so ratherthan having separate calls for
cookery and for um petisserieand things like that, I know
there's discussions around, youknow, being able to streamline
that.
I know there's lots of feedbackfrom industry that continues to
be about duplication in trainingpackages.
So, like whether we're lookingat, you know, SIT is really bad
for this one.
Like, we spend a lot of timewriting SIT.
(10:29):
And when you look at like allthose SITHCC units, in every
unit you've got, okay, read therecipe, identify the Misson
Plus, um, you know, check yourequipment, make sure your
ingredients are fresh.
Um it's not until you get downto like uh to element like four
(10:51):
or five that you're actuallyfocusing on the skill of making
whatever particular dishes theyare.
And I guess what I would behoping to see, and the the
consult, like when markup comesup, you can guarantee me and my
team are gonna be jumping inthere.
I would really like to see a lotmore clarity in and around
things like um they've got thatlist of skills.
(11:14):
So like you've got to be ableto, um, you've got to be able to
drill in, you've got to be ableto steam, you've got to be able
to bake, you've got to be ableto, and the way that it's
included and written in the unitat the moment is a little bit
ambiguous as to whether or notwe need to do that every single
time.
So, like if I can steam a carrotand I can steam a fish, do I
(11:36):
need to also steam for poultryand for beef and for gluten-free
products?
Or is it sufficient that I'vedemonstrated steaming once or
twice?
So, you know, this is where likeyou've got huge amounts of
duplication.
And I know we've had to createrecipes previously because you
know needed the ingredients.
(11:58):
Well, yeah, like it was addingredient, or it was like,
especially in some of those cakepatisseries units, there's a
garnish that we haven't managedto include, you know, like
you've got to have sixgarnishes, um, you've got to
have six toppings, you've got tohave three sources.
Um, and so it from it's verychallenging from a developer's
(12:20):
perspective.
SPEAKER_02 (12:21):
And I know when we go in, and for the RTO to be
able to provide all theingredients and the equipment
and everything.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
And the cost of it is also like is huge.
Like in the um seafood unit,you've got a whole bag of fish,
right?
If you if you don't choose thatcorrectly, that's so expensive
to be able to roll that unitout.
Um, and so what I think aboutprerequisite of having a set
(13:09):
three in retail or equivalentexperience.
Different state funding bodiesinterpret that very differently.
We've had massive problems withNew South Wales and how they
interpret that criteria.
So I would really hope that whenthe SIR training package
launches, that there's a lot ofactive discussion around should
that criteria should be inthere.
(13:29):
I've got to be honest,personally, I don't think you
should have to have a cert threeto go into a cert four in
retail.
I think you should have arelevant amount of experience.
I think you should be in asupervisor role.
Um, but I think if you've got acouple of years' experience of
working in retail, you should beable to go directly into a cert
four in retail.
As long as you've got theexperience and you're working in
a relevant work role, right?
(13:51):
Um, so I think that this iswhere we would want to see some
of those changes be made.
SPEAKER_02 (13:56):
Yeah.
And we want to make sure thatthe RTO has a good criteria for
that as well.
So um, so how do you think thisis going to impact trainers and
assessors?
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
Okay, so step one for trainers and assessors is
I've had all my trainers andassessors, I've said to them,
when public links come out, weneed to be jumping in there.
And, you know, let's have atraining, like let's do a
session.
And so I've got a couple ofcolleges that we're gonna have
all eight of our trainers jumpin and we'll do um, I'll get
(14:29):
them, I'll I'll have the systemup and we'll go through as a
group and we'll put our feedbackinto it, right?
Um, so I've said first first andforemost, we need to go through
the units that are our painpoints, and within different
RTOs and different trainingpackages, we've got different
pain points, right?
Um, I think some of those coreunits we need to be looking at.
(14:50):
So, like, you know, if you're ahospitality trainer, XFSA 005,
um, H C C C 777, um, you know,like pick those key sorted units
and make sure we go and addfeedback onto that.
From an RTO perspective, youneed to have a plan.
Okay, so understanding the wholesystem, and it's a bit different
as to whether or not like you'rea CRIPOSS or a funded, but I'm
(15:13):
gonna go with funded at themoment because this has a
massive impact for funding forpeople, right?
So I'm a funded RTO deliveringSIT, SIR, SHB, DANS, whatever.
And I know my training packageis coming up for review.
It's gonna launch next year,2020 during during next year,
from the draft, let's work withthe draft and put a plan
(15:36):
together on let's assume thedraft is 80, 90 percent pretty
much where it's gonna be.
Let's start working out wherethe big changes are and work out
what our development plan isgonna have to be from the point
that it actually launches,right?
Once we've got our developmentplan for how it actually, what
happens when it actuallylaunches, I then need to figure
(15:58):
out what strategy I'm gonnatake.
Because if, for example, right,I've got some RTOs looking at
this and they're going, okay,well, funding, we've got funding
across every single state, butmy funding is gonna roll out
over a three-year period acrossthese states.
We've got a one-year teach out,Victoria will come online first,
(16:21):
and you know, probably by thetime WA will be probably 12
months behind everybody else.
So I'm rolling out and I'm gonnabe dual delivering these tools
over the next two to threeyears.
If that's gonna be the case, doI need to develop a set of
assessment tools that are gonnameet the old unit and the new
unit?
If it's a total rewrite and it'slike the units are not
(16:44):
equivalent, how are we gonnawork out our transition plans?
Right?
Are we gonna, are we gonna writedual tools?
Are we gonna write gapassessments?
You know, are we gonna cut offenrollment, stop at this point,
and then move into this point?
And again, depending on yourstate model and everything like
that, you're gonna havedifferent strategies, right?
(17:05):
But at a management level, youneed to be sitting with your
trainers and going, right, howdifferent are these units?
Okay, given the level ofdifference, this is the strategy
that we're gonna go with for ourtoport.
That's what's gonna work.
And you need to have that planin place pretty much from the
day that the training productlaunches.
SPEAKER_02 (17:22):
Yeah.
In order to do that transition,you you need to be on the ball
straight away.
So I I love your idea about thedraft working with the draft.
And that's what I did with thelegislation changes in
standards.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
Absolutely.
And that's what all of us did.
And we know that there's tinytits, you know, there's always
tweaks and things that theychange.
But I think in the majority ofthings, you can kind of work on
that 80-20 rule of like youmight see a 20% change, but
broadly we then know what wewant to, how we want to approach
this process.
(17:55):
And then once you've approachedthe process and you figured out
how you're going to transitionit, then from the day that that
training product launches, youthen have a communication
strategy for your employers, foryour for your own internal
staff, for your clients, youremployers, and for your
students.
And again, leading into like thenew standards of keeping, you
(18:16):
know, everyone abreast ofchanges and things like that.
You know, in the first couple ofweeks, your website gets updated
to denote that this is now asuperseded qualification.
Your enrollment forms getupdated to denote that you are
being enrolled in a supersededqualification.
And then you start yourcommunication strategy of yes,
we're enrolling you in asuperseded qualification, we're
going to deliver these threeunits to you first because we
(18:38):
know that they're equivalent andwe can credit transfer them over
in the next couple of months,and then we'll roll you into the
new qualification when thefunding rolls out for it.
Or the, you know, these unitsare equivalent, we deliver those
first, then these units we'regoing to develop dual tools for.
And then we know by the timethat the new students get to the
end of that process, the newfunding will be out, and we can
(19:00):
flick them into the new toolsfrom there.
Right?
Yeah.
Having a good solid transitionplan and communication plan in
place is going to make your RTOrun a lot.
And really starting now.
Yeah.
And in certain spaces, like thiswill affect apprenticeships for
some.
Apprenticeships has almostalways been given a two to three
(19:21):
year extension period.
But it has to be initiated bythe RTOs going to the JSC,
getting support from the JSC toget the extension from ASCAR.
So again, from day one, all ofthose apprenticeship
qualifications, you know,hairdressing, um, cookery, um,
you know, all of that sort ofstuff, from day one, it needs to
(19:44):
be a really quick process,telecommunications will be the
same, of going to the going toFSO, going to Saxon and saying,
right, guys, you're updating anapprenticeship.
We want a three-year extensionprocess so that we're not
negatively impacting our guysthat are now a year and a half
into their three-yearapprenticeship, you know, or two
(20:04):
years into a four-yearapprenticeship.
We need that three-yearextension process so that we can
teach these ones out and so thatthe new ones that we're
enrolling today, we've got sixmonths that we can build before
we enroll them and then pushthem into the new product.
But that has to be instigated bythe RTOs, pushed into the F uh
(20:25):
pushed into the JSCs and thenapproved through ASPA.
SPEAKER_02 (20:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And uh the other one I recommendis we always recommend all of
the RTOs should have agovernance meeting, and at that
governance meeting once a monthor whatever their regular cycle
is, they're recording what'shappening.
So what's changing in thetraining package, and that's
where you could be monitoringyour transition plan or the
build-out of the transitionplan.
(20:51):
And then you've got it minutedas well for um as evidence.
But yeah, so I'm gonna wrap allof that up into another
checklist um because uh thisit's been very, very helpful to
identify okay, what do we needto do as an RTO to prepare for
these changes?
And one of the first things thatwe've I've identified from what
(21:12):
you've said is first of all, youactually really need to be
looking at the draft, draft umtraining product, and what are
those changes are going to bebecause you're not going to be
able to draw up your plan unlessyou know what you're in for
first.
So, first of all, is doing thatand then starting to develop
what is going to be yourtransition plan.
And what you said there, Lauren,was meet up with your team, your
(21:36):
trainers, um, and most probablyyour the developers of the
training and assessmentmaterials to identify okay, what
are the changes, what's going tobe different, what's going to be
completely what, and what needsto be written as new, what can
what are the um equivalenttraining uh units, because if
it's equivalent, you want to getthat done as soon as possible so
(21:58):
you can just do focus on thoseand then transition over to the
new new training units.
So uh so we've got the planthen, so we can uh then populate
the plan based on what thatresearch was, the superseded
units, the direct equivalents,things like that.
Then it's the communicationplan.
(22:20):
So, how are you gonnacommunicate this with your
students, with your apprentices,with your trainers and
assessors, with your industry,and how are we ensuring that not
only are we transitioning overto the new training product, but
we're also got a whole plantogether with how we're gonna
communicate it and implement it.
(22:42):
So, anything I missed there,Lauren?
I think you got it off.
I'm a good listener.
I was like, okay, what okay,this is what we're gonna do.
All right, so um, so the I thinkthe biggest advice I've heard
from Lauren today is don't wait.
Uh, you should be looking at itnow and looking at that whole
(23:04):
transition.
Um, you know, being a leader inthe vet sector as an RTO, you
really should be on the ballwhen it comes to uh that
transitional teacher.
And I often find whenever Ideliver training around that
area, transitional teacher, ithas the most confusion.
Most people don't understandwhat the process should be.
(23:27):
And I I think they think it'sjust like a it's not a policy
that just gets gone going.
It's like you you've actuallygot quite a few steps involved,
and it's that whole transitionplan of how you're going to do
that.
Um, and it's it's not just foryour students, it's your
trainers, it's your admin, it'syour marketing, it's your
(23:47):
industry, if you've gotemployers, they need to
understand what's going on aswell.
So yeah, I wouldn't behesitating.
I'd be uh putting that plan intogether now, um, making sure
you're ready prior to the umprior to the rollout.
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
So Lauren, um like if you're not sure who your JSCs
are, if you jump onto TGA andyou go and click on your
training package, it will tellyou who your jobs and skills
agency is, jobs and skills uhcounsel is, you can go into that
website and you can sign up forupdates on your on your specific
(24:26):
training packages.
You'll see in there, like theyhave to basically give a plan of
the next couple of years.
So you'll see if your trainingproducts are actually coming up
for review.
And it is really worthwhile tomake sure, especially if you're
like a compliance, if you're thelead compliance person in your
organization or you're the leadcurriculum development or the
lead trainer, make sure you'resigned up for those updates so
(24:47):
that you are aware early in theprocess and you can be involved
in the conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (24:52):
And if you just go on to training.gov.au, on the
front page they have trainingpackages that are under review.
So that actually tells you whichtraining packages are under
review and the JSC.
So you can go straight to theJSC from there as well.
The other one I recommend is ifyou haven't done so already,
subscribe to training.gov.au, tothe training package that you
(25:16):
have on your scope, and mostimportantly, to your RTO.
Because if there's any changesto your RTO or any training
products on your scope, it willsend you an update from TGA so
you'll know what's happening.
We do it for every one of ourclients.
We subscribe to their RTO on TGAso that we know any changes that
(25:37):
come up so we can notify ourclients and say, hey, did you
know this is happening and thatyou need to prepare or if we
need to put a transition plan.
Okay, so thank you very much,Lauren.
That was fantastic.
Um, can you just do a littlespiel for your roadshow that
you're involved with, just so ifanybody wants to join in, they
can attend.
SPEAKER_01 (25:57):
Yes, so I will also make sure that I send the link
to Angela and put the linkbelow.
It is Saxa Takes Australia Tour.
And so Saxa is going to beleading consultation for dance,
uh, sorry, dance, retail,hospitality, and uh beauty and
hairdressing.
Um, and they will be going toevery single state starting with
(26:19):
Hobart on November 8th, uh,finishing up with Canberra, and
we're literally goingeverywhere.
So like Darwin, Perth, um, therewill be in face-to-face
consultations in every majorcity and state.
So if you are an RTO that has SI T, S I R, S H B, C U A on your
scope, you should be signing upand coming and saying hi and um
(26:41):
understanding what's happeningin the training package update
and being able to voice yoursay.
Again, we will put the link forthe Saxa website um in the show
notes.
SPEAKER_02 (26:51):
Yeah, and I highly recommend getting along to those
sessions because you can askquestions direct then and
actually get some feedback uhthere uh at the session.
So uh yes, I do recommend thatyou uh if those training
products are on your scope, getalong to the roadshow.
Uh Lauren's going to be leavingher chickens for uh three weeks
(27:14):
and heading on the road.
Or on the road or flying, I'massuming.
SPEAKER_01 (27:21):
Flying.
So yeah, way too many flightsand too many hotels.
Um the only the highlight for meis that I get to go back to
Perth where my 18-year-old sonis.
Um so I do get to have puddlesand give my give my oldest son a
bit of a hug and um and have abit of attractive defense.
So that will be nice.
SPEAKER_02 (27:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Awesome.
Okay, thank you very much onceagain, Lauren.
Uh, by the time this podcastcomes out, we'll be very close
to the Velve Conference.
So uh if you're going to the VELconference, uh both Lauren and I
are going to be there.
We'd love to catch up with youand uh find out what you what's
going on in your sector.
(28:01):
And um and I'll be speaking atthe conference.
So I'm going to be talking aboutsupport services uh and that
whole process that you need tohave within your RTO.
I'll be on the second day on thelast session of the second day.
So I'd love to catch up with youthere.
Thank you again, Lauren.
Uh, once again, always apleasure to have you on our RTO
superhero podcast.
(28:23):
Thank you.
You have a great day.
You too.
Thank you.
My dogs are thinking.
Welcome to the RTO Superhero Podcast with me,
Angela Connell Richards, and myspecial guest, Lauren Hollows.
Welcome again, Lauren.
Hi guys.
Thanks for having me back.
So awesome having you onlineagain.
So today's uh topic is going tobe the changes in training
packages.
And uh Lauren is doing a specialroadshow on um, she's joining a
(01:17):
roadshow on the changes andthings like that.
So we thought this would be agreat opportunity to tap into
Lauren's brain about what's umwhat's happening and in
particular uh Lauren'sspecialty, the SIR and the SIT
training packages.
So let's get started.
Uh so both the SIR and SITtraining packages are going
(01:40):
through major updates.
Can you give me an overview ofwhat's changing and why?
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Yeah, so um I I and Y has been lucky enough to be
working with um SAXA, which isService and Creative Skills
Australia, um, for the lastcouple of months.
We have actually been working onthe SHB training package, which
is for addressing barbering andsalon management, but I know
that there are lots of otherteams at the moment working on
dance, and the two big onescoming out are SIR and SIT, and
(02:07):
I believe that they're going tobe launching um next week.
Um, so I'm very excited toactually see what the Saxa team
has done to those productsbecause we've got um, I think
that they're they're coveringall of the coississery,
commercial cookery retails inthe scope um uh based on their
website and everything likethat.
(02:28):
And obviously, these arequalifications that are just
huge in our industry.
Um and you know, will obviouslyhave a major impact and have an
impact on internationals and ondomestics, and um SACS has done
a huge amount of consultation.
I know I've I've sat in on someof those consultations so far.
Um, I'm gonna be joining theirroadshow um for you know as one
(02:49):
of their SHB representatives,but I will be sitting in on all
of the SIR, SIT ones as wellbecause Anawire will be
rewriting all of thoseassessment tools when the new
units come out.
So the more heads up we have onthe changes and everything like
that, the the easier our job isgonna make us.
And I think the thing that I'veactually um really been excited
(03:10):
about, like I've beencomplaining about training
packages for legitimately yearsnow, um, about all the things in
them that I find frustrating andyou know not actually meeting
industry requirements.
Yeah, and I mean like theslowness of the process is I
know something that everyone hasalways had.
And I know pre in previous timesI've provided feedback and
(03:33):
others have provided feedback,and there's always kind of been
a sense of, well, I providedfeedback, but I don't know what
happened to it.
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
Um, and so I You said it was a different process
this time, more transparent.
SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
So, like I know that with um like with Saxa, it's
going onto a system calledMarkup.
And so with Markup, basicallyeveryone can go in, they've they
have to nominate who they are,it's not anonymous, but then
they can provide feedback onindividual units.
And not only can we see can Isee my feedback, but I can see
(04:04):
your feedback that you put up,or I can see industries, you
know, an industry member'sfeedback that they put up.
And so I'm really excited to seesort of the iterative part of
this process whereby someoneputs an idea out there and
people can then jump onto thatidea and go, yeah, I love that,
I love that, I love that, orhey, but what about this?
(04:25):
Or I I kind of disagree with youa little bit because of X, Y,
and Z.
Um, and so I'm excited to seesort of like an almost online
live debate happening over theseunits and how that then feeds
into making these units better.
Um, because you know, over theyears, like I sat it on a
(04:46):
telecommunications oneyesterday.
Um it was yesterday, I don'tknow.
Um, but I sat it ontelecommunications because
telecommunications is beingupdated again.
And so, you know, that there'slike 180 units that they're
updating.
And and one of the things thatthey recommended in that one,
they were like, oh, well, wewant to get rid of some of these
imported units.
(05:07):
Um and, you know, a couple ofpeople were like, yeah, okay,
cool.
And I was like, no, no, no, no,no.
But if I've got RTOs deliveringthose, and if you remove those
imported units, then we'veactually got to add them onto
SPO.
And that's more of anadministrative workload for us.
And the gentleman who wasrunning it, a gentleman called
Dominic Champano, um, who's abig industry person in that
(05:29):
sector, he was like, Oh, that'sfair feedback.
We'll go and take a look at thatbefore we kind of further that
recommendation.
Um, and so I think just ingeneral, the experience that
I've had with both FSO, which isFuture Skills Organization, and
SAXA is that there's a lot ofpeople that kind of come from
RTO world or have orbited RTOworld and understand that
(05:55):
feedback and feeling thatfeedback is actually really well
received has been an issue inthe past.
And so the way that I'm seeingsome of the JSCs engage at the
moment uh is actually excitingbecause I do feel like RTOs and
um organizations and individualsand industry really do have a
(06:17):
chance to like sit and haveinput.
And I know that like I've youknow, we we we've got a meeting
for one of my RTOs that's gonnasit down with um FSO on this
telecommunications project andand go through some key units
and some really specificfeedback on like this this
particular like RJ45 is not aterm that's used anymore, or
(06:38):
this is not a term that's usedanymore, or this is not a
technology, this technology hasnow been superseded.
We don't we don't fix theseunits anymore, we just replace
them, right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (06:47):
So I think that's there's just a very different
approach that I'm seeing withsome of the JSCs in terms of
really taking on that feedbackum and really wanting to
implement and provide productsthat are different.
And I don't know if that'sacross all of the JSCs, but
certainly with FSO and with umuh with Saxa, I'm I I've been
(07:13):
more, I've been far moreintimately involved than I ever
have in the past, and I'm havinga much better understanding of
all the stuff that has to happenbehind the scenes.
And part of that is in responseto what's called a new TPOF or
new training package organizingframework, whereby the
government's saying, look,you've got to go out and you've
got to do all of this industryconsultation, you need to
(07:33):
listen, you need to actually,you know, uh write out every
single fit piece of feedbackyou've received and whether or
not you've actioned it, whetheryou agreed with it, whether or
not you disagreed with it.
And if you disagree with it, whydo you disagree with it?
So it's gonna be interesting tosee when these training products
release.
Um there are some new formats.
There's a new format A, which isvery similar to what we've got
(07:55):
now, and then there's a formatB, which will remove performance
criteria and elements andreplace them with knowledge and
skills.
Um so big changes for RTOs in,you know, again, more changes
for RTOs in terms of, you know,having to you know build and
redevelop and everything likethat, but also I think huge
(08:15):
opportunities um to really belistened to.
And, you know, if you're an RTOin and you are doing, you know,
you you do deliver dents orhospitality or retail, um, you
know, when these productslaunch, it's all available on
the on the Saxa websites,available on the FSO websites.
We've had really good responserates of like reaching out and
(08:36):
going, hey, I've got this RTO,I've got this industry guys that
really they want to sit down andthey want to give you feedback
for an hour on these specificunits.
And both FSO and and SAXA havebeen really responsive to go,
yep, okay, cool, let's set thatmeeting up and let's go through
that.
And I've never had thatexperience before.
Um, and I'm you know, I'mexcited to see the result of
(08:57):
that product.
SPEAKER_02 (08:58):
So all of this has been driven by the VET reform.
And uh, you know, we we hadchange in legislation because it
was what they had identified asthe training that was being
delivered wasn't actuallymeeting industry needs, and um,
and then we had the change inlegislation, and that's where
they're now going with thetraining packages.
(09:20):
From what you've seen so far,has uh are they aligning more
with the industry skillshortages and the gaps that are
uh have been identified withinin particular the SIR, which is
retail, and SIT, which ishospitality.
What are the what are theindustry impacts that you're
(09:41):
seeing on on these trainingpackages that are making a
difference?
SPEAKER_01 (09:45):
So um, yeah, so again, so I I'm I've been I've
been working within SHB, whichis hairdressing and barbering.
Um there's a different set ofconsultants that's working with
Saxa to do the SIR and the SIT.
In the initial consultationsthat I've sat in, because they
did run a range of initialpublic consultations, um, I
understand that they're lookingat streaming.
(10:07):
Um, so moving like so ratherthan having separate calls for
cookery and for um petisserieand things like that, I know
there's discussions around, youknow, being able to streamline
that.
I know there's lots of feedbackfrom industry that continues to
be about duplication in trainingpackages.
So, like whether we're lookingat, you know, SIT is really bad
for this one.
Like, we spend a lot of timewriting SIT.
(10:29):
And when you look at like allthose SITHCC units, in every
unit you've got, okay, read therecipe, identify the Misson
Plus, um, you know, check yourequipment, make sure your
ingredients are fresh.
Um it's not until you get downto like uh to element like four
(10:51):
or five that you're actuallyfocusing on the skill of making
whatever particular dishes theyare.
And I guess what I would behoping to see, and the the
consult, like when markup comesup, you can guarantee me and my
team are gonna be jumping inthere.
I would really like to see a lotmore clarity in and around
things like um they've got thatlist of skills.
(11:14):
So like you've got to be ableto, um, you've got to be able to
drill in, you've got to be ableto steam, you've got to be able
to bake, you've got to be ableto, and the way that it's
included and written in the unitat the moment is a little bit
ambiguous as to whether or notwe need to do that every single
time.
So, like if I can steam a carrotand I can steam a fish, do I
(11:36):
need to also steam for poultryand for beef and for gluten-free
products?
Or is it sufficient that I'vedemonstrated steaming once or
twice?
So, you know, this is where likeyou've got huge amounts of
duplication.
And I know we've had to createrecipes previously because you
know needed the ingredients.
(11:58):
Well, yeah, like it was addingredient, or it was like,
especially in some of those cakepatisseries units, there's a
garnish that we haven't managedto include, you know, like
you've got to have sixgarnishes, um, you've got to
have six toppings, you've got tohave three sources.
Um, and so it from it's verychallenging from a developer's
(12:20):
perspective.
SPEAKER_02 (12:21):
And I know when we go in, and for the RTO to be
able to provide all theingredients and the equipment
and everything.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
And the cost of it is also like is huge.
Like in the um seafood unit,you've got a whole bag of fish,
right?
If you if you don't choose thatcorrectly, that's so expensive
to be able to roll that unitout.
Um, and so what I think aboutprerequisite of having a set
(13:09):
three in retail or equivalentexperience.
Different state funding bodiesinterpret that very differently.
We've had massive problems withNew South Wales and how they
interpret that criteria.
So I would really hope that whenthe SIR training package
launches, that there's a lot ofactive discussion around should
that criteria should be inthere.
(13:29):
I've got to be honest,personally, I don't think you
should have to have a cert threeto go into a cert four in
retail.
I think you should have arelevant amount of experience.
I think you should be in asupervisor role.
Um, but I think if you've got acouple of years' experience of
working in retail, you should beable to go directly into a cert
four in retail.
As long as you've got theexperience and you're working in
a relevant work role, right?
(13:51):
Um, so I think that this iswhere we would want to see some
of those changes be made.
SPEAKER_02 (13:56):
Yeah.
And we want to make sure thatthe RTO has a good criteria for
that as well.
So um, so how do you think thisis going to impact trainers and
assessors?
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
Okay, so step one for trainers and assessors is
I've had all my trainers andassessors, I've said to them,
when public links come out, weneed to be jumping in there.
And, you know, let's have atraining, like let's do a
session.
And so I've got a couple ofcolleges that we're gonna have
all eight of our trainers jumpin and we'll do um, I'll get
(14:29):
them, I'll I'll have the systemup and we'll go through as a
group and we'll put our feedbackinto it, right?
Um, so I've said first first andforemost, we need to go through
the units that are our painpoints, and within different
RTOs and different trainingpackages, we've got different
pain points, right?
Um, I think some of those coreunits we need to be looking at.
(14:50):
So, like, you know, if you're ahospitality trainer, XFSA 005,
um, H C C C 777, um, you know,like pick those key sorted units
and make sure we go and addfeedback onto that.
From an RTO perspective, youneed to have a plan.
Okay, so understanding the wholesystem, and it's a bit different
as to whether or not like you'rea CRIPOSS or a funded, but I'm
(15:13):
gonna go with funded at themoment because this has a
massive impact for funding forpeople, right?
So I'm a funded RTO deliveringSIT, SIR, SHB, DANS, whatever.
And I know my training packageis coming up for review.
It's gonna launch next year,2020 during during next year,
from the draft, let's work withthe draft and put a plan
(15:36):
together on let's assume thedraft is 80, 90 percent pretty
much where it's gonna be.
Let's start working out wherethe big changes are and work out
what our development plan isgonna have to be from the point
that it actually launches,right?
Once we've got our developmentplan for how it actually, what
happens when it actuallylaunches, I then need to figure
(15:58):
out what strategy I'm gonnatake.
Because if, for example, right,I've got some RTOs looking at
this and they're going, okay,well, funding, we've got funding
across every single state, butmy funding is gonna roll out
over a three-year period acrossthese states.
We've got a one-year teach out,Victoria will come online first,
(16:21):
and you know, probably by thetime WA will be probably 12
months behind everybody else.
So I'm rolling out and I'm gonnabe dual delivering these tools
over the next two to threeyears.
If that's gonna be the case, doI need to develop a set of
assessment tools that are gonnameet the old unit and the new
unit?
If it's a total rewrite and it'slike the units are not
(16:44):
equivalent, how are we gonnawork out our transition plans?
Right?
Are we gonna, are we gonna writedual tools?
Are we gonna write gapassessments?
You know, are we gonna cut offenrollment, stop at this point,
and then move into this point?
And again, depending on yourstate model and everything like
that, you're gonna havedifferent strategies, right?
(17:05):
But at a management level, youneed to be sitting with your
trainers and going, right, howdifferent are these units?
Okay, given the level ofdifference, this is the strategy
that we're gonna go with for ourtoport.
That's what's gonna work.
And you need to have that planin place pretty much from the
day that the training productlaunches.
SPEAKER_02 (17:22):
Yeah.
In order to do that transition,you you need to be on the ball
straight away.
So I I love your idea about thedraft working with the draft.
And that's what I did with thelegislation changes in
standards.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
Absolutely.
And that's what all of us did.
And we know that there's tinytits, you know, there's always
tweaks and things that theychange.
But I think in the majority ofthings, you can kind of work on
that 80-20 rule of like youmight see a 20% change, but
broadly we then know what wewant to, how we want to approach
this process.
(17:55):
And then once you've approachedthe process and you figured out
how you're going to transitionit, then from the day that that
training product launches, youthen have a communication
strategy for your employers, foryour for your own internal
staff, for your clients, youremployers, and for your
students.
And again, leading into like thenew standards of keeping, you
(18:16):
know, everyone abreast ofchanges and things like that.
You know, in the first couple ofweeks, your website gets updated
to denote that this is now asuperseded qualification.
Your enrollment forms getupdated to denote that you are
being enrolled in a supersededqualification.
And then you start yourcommunication strategy of yes,
we're enrolling you in asuperseded qualification, we're
going to deliver these threeunits to you first because we
(18:38):
know that they're equivalent andwe can credit transfer them over
in the next couple of months,and then we'll roll you into the
new qualification when thefunding rolls out for it.
Or the, you know, these unitsare equivalent, we deliver those
first, then these units we'regoing to develop dual tools for.
And then we know by the timethat the new students get to the
end of that process, the newfunding will be out, and we can
(19:00):
flick them into the new toolsfrom there.
Right?
Yeah.
Having a good solid transitionplan and communication plan in
place is going to make your RTOrun a lot.
And really starting now.
Yeah.
And in certain spaces, like thiswill affect apprenticeships for
some.
Apprenticeships has almostalways been given a two to three
(19:21):
year extension period.
But it has to be initiated bythe RTOs going to the JSC,
getting support from the JSC toget the extension from ASCAR.
So again, from day one, all ofthose apprenticeship
qualifications, you know,hairdressing, um, cookery, um,
you know, all of that sort ofstuff, from day one, it needs to
(19:44):
be a really quick process,telecommunications will be the
same, of going to the going toFSO, going to Saxon and saying,
right, guys, you're updating anapprenticeship.
We want a three-year extensionprocess so that we're not
negatively impacting our guysthat are now a year and a half
into their three-yearapprenticeship, you know, or two
(20:04):
years into a four-yearapprenticeship.
We need that three-yearextension process so that we can
teach these ones out and so thatthe new ones that we're
enrolling today, we've got sixmonths that we can build before
we enroll them and then pushthem into the new product.
But that has to be instigated bythe RTOs, pushed into the F uh
(20:25):
pushed into the JSCs and thenapproved through ASPA.
SPEAKER_02 (20:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And uh the other one I recommendis we always recommend all of
the RTOs should have agovernance meeting, and at that
governance meeting once a monthor whatever their regular cycle
is, they're recording what'shappening.
So what's changing in thetraining package, and that's
where you could be monitoringyour transition plan or the
build-out of the transitionplan.
(20:51):
And then you've got it minutedas well for um as evidence.
But yeah, so I'm gonna wrap allof that up into another
checklist um because uh thisit's been very, very helpful to
identify okay, what do we needto do as an RTO to prepare for
these changes?
And one of the first things thatwe've I've identified from what
(21:12):
you've said is first of all, youactually really need to be
looking at the draft, draft umtraining product, and what are
those changes are going to bebecause you're not going to be
able to draw up your plan unlessyou know what you're in for
first.
So, first of all, is doing thatand then starting to develop
what is going to be yourtransition plan.
And what you said there, Lauren,was meet up with your team, your
(21:36):
trainers, um, and most probablyyour the developers of the
training and assessmentmaterials to identify okay, what
are the changes, what's going tobe different, what's going to be
completely what, and what needsto be written as new, what can
what are the um equivalenttraining uh units, because if
it's equivalent, you want to getthat done as soon as possible so
(21:58):
you can just do focus on thoseand then transition over to the
new new training units.
So uh so we've got the planthen, so we can uh then populate
the plan based on what thatresearch was, the superseded
units, the direct equivalents,things like that.
Then it's the communicationplan.
(22:20):
So, how are you gonnacommunicate this with your
students, with your apprentices,with your trainers and
assessors, with your industry,and how are we ensuring that not
only are we transitioning overto the new training product, but
we're also got a whole plantogether with how we're gonna
communicate it and implement it.
(22:42):
So, anything I missed there,Lauren?
I think you got it off.
I'm a good listener.
I was like, okay, what okay,this is what we're gonna do.
All right, so um, so the I thinkthe biggest advice I've heard
from Lauren today is don't wait.
Uh, you should be looking at itnow and looking at that whole
(23:04):
transition.
Um, you know, being a leader inthe vet sector as an RTO, you
really should be on the ballwhen it comes to uh that
transitional teacher.
And I often find whenever Ideliver training around that
area, transitional teacher, ithas the most confusion.
Most people don't understandwhat the process should be.
(23:27):
And I I think they think it'sjust like a it's not a policy
that just gets gone going.
It's like you you've actuallygot quite a few steps involved,
and it's that whole transitionplan of how you're going to do
that.
Um, and it's it's not just foryour students, it's your
trainers, it's your admin, it'syour marketing, it's your
(23:47):
industry, if you've gotemployers, they need to
understand what's going on aswell.
So yeah, I wouldn't behesitating.
I'd be uh putting that plan intogether now, um, making sure
you're ready prior to the umprior to the rollout.
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
So Lauren, um like if you're not sure who your JSCs
are, if you jump onto TGA andyou go and click on your
training package, it will tellyou who your jobs and skills
agency is, jobs and skills uhcounsel is, you can go into that
website and you can sign up forupdates on your on your specific
(24:26):
training packages.
You'll see in there, like theyhave to basically give a plan of
the next couple of years.
So you'll see if your trainingproducts are actually coming up
for review.
And it is really worthwhile tomake sure, especially if you're
like a compliance, if you're thelead compliance person in your
organization or you're the leadcurriculum development or the
lead trainer, make sure you'resigned up for those updates so
(24:47):
that you are aware early in theprocess and you can be involved
in the conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (24:52):
And if you just go on to training.gov.au, on the
front page they have trainingpackages that are under review.
So that actually tells you whichtraining packages are under
review and the JSC.
So you can go straight to theJSC from there as well.
The other one I recommend is ifyou haven't done so already,
subscribe to training.gov.au, tothe training package that you
(25:16):
have on your scope, and mostimportantly, to your RTO.
Because if there's any changesto your RTO or any training
products on your scope, it willsend you an update from TGA so
you'll know what's happening.
We do it for every one of ourclients.
We subscribe to their RTO on TGAso that we know any changes that
(25:37):
come up so we can notify ourclients and say, hey, did you
know this is happening and thatyou need to prepare or if we
need to put a transition plan.
Okay, so thank you very much,Lauren.
That was fantastic.
Um, can you just do a littlespiel for your roadshow that
you're involved with, just so ifanybody wants to join in, they
can attend.
SPEAKER_01 (25:57):
Yes, so I will also make sure that I send the link
to Angela and put the linkbelow.
It is Saxa Takes Australia Tour.
And so Saxa is going to beleading consultation for dance,
uh, sorry, dance, retail,hospitality, and uh beauty and
hairdressing.
Um, and they will be going toevery single state starting with
(26:19):
Hobart on November 8th, uh,finishing up with Canberra, and
we're literally goingeverywhere.
So like Darwin, Perth, um, therewill be in face-to-face
consultations in every majorcity and state.
So if you are an RTO that has SI T, S I R, S H B, C U A on your
scope, you should be signing upand coming and saying hi and um
(26:41):
understanding what's happeningin the training package update
and being able to voice yoursay.
Again, we will put the link forthe Saxa website um in the show
notes.
SPEAKER_02 (26:51):
Yeah, and I highly recommend getting along to those
sessions because you can askquestions direct then and
actually get some feedback uhthere uh at the session.
So uh yes, I do recommend thatyou uh if those training
products are on your scope, getalong to the roadshow.
Uh Lauren's going to be leavingher chickens for uh three weeks
(27:14):
and heading on the road.
Or on the road or flying, I'massuming.
SPEAKER_01 (27:21):
Flying.
So yeah, way too many flightsand too many hotels.
Um the only the highlight for meis that I get to go back to
Perth where my 18-year-old sonis.
Um so I do get to have puddlesand give my give my oldest son a
bit of a hug and um and have abit of attractive defense.
So that will be nice.
SPEAKER_02 (27:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Awesome.
Okay, thank you very much onceagain, Lauren.
Uh, by the time this podcastcomes out, we'll be very close
to the Velve Conference.
So uh if you're going to the VELconference, uh both Lauren and I
are going to be there.
We'd love to catch up with youand uh find out what you what's
going on in your sector.
(28:01):
And um and I'll be speaking atthe conference.
So I'm going to be talking aboutsupport services uh and that
whole process that you need tohave within your RTO.
I'll be on the second day on thelast session of the second day.
So I'd love to catch up with youthere.
Thank you again, Lauren.
Uh, once again, always apleasure to have you on our RTO
superhero podcast.
(28:23):
Thank you.
You have a great day.
You too.
Thank you.
My dogs are thinking.
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