February 26, 2025 • 44 mins
Hawaii leads the nation in high housing prices. Experts Ted Kefalas and Jonathan Helton from Grassroot Institute explain the regulatory obstacles to building sufficient housing for Hawaiians, and regulatory reform efforts that could increase the housing supply. It has been over 18 months since the fires that nearly destroyed the town of Lahaina in Maui County, Hawaii. Since that time, thousands of commercial and residential properties have been destroyed or damaged, and only 6 houses have been rebuilt.
In this segment, Kefalas and Helton discuss the legal and regulatory hurdles that have prevented Hawaiians to rebuild their destroyed homes and businesses, and proposals that could help facilitate rebuilding. In the final segment, the experts discuss what lessons California could learn from Hawaii's experience to ensure that Angelinos do not experience the same slow rebuild after the Pacific Palisades Fire.
In this segment, Kefalas and Helton discuss the legal and regulatory hurdles that have prevented Hawaiians to rebuild their destroyed homes and businesses, and proposals that could help facilitate rebuilding. In the final segment, the experts discuss what lessons California could learn from Hawaii's experience to ensure that Angelinos do not experience the same slow rebuild after the Pacific Palisades Fire.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Regulatory Transparency Project's Fourth Branch podcast series.
All expressions of opinion are those of the speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to the Regulatory Transparency Project's Fourth Branch podcast My
name is Steve Schaffer and I'm the director of the
Regulatory Transparency Project. Thank you for being with us. I
am pleased today to speak with two experts, Ted Cafalis
and Jonathan Helton from the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii about
the regulatory environment and why, the ability to rebuild and
why after the wildfires that severely damaged the city of Volhina,
(00:41):
and to explore what lessons can be learned from Hawaii's
experience and applied to California's rebuilding efforts after the Pacific
Palisades fires. Note, as always, the Federal Society takes no
position on any issues, and the opinions expressed are those
of the experts.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
So, Ted, Jonathan, thank you for being with us today.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Before we get started, you know, tell us a little
bit about yourselves and the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Ted, how about we start with you.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Yeah, absolutely, Well, thanks for having us, Steve. I mean,
this is a really important issue. I work as the
director of strategic campaigns at Grassroots Institute and also work
as our registered lobbyists, So I'm kind of on the
ground working with legislators, the general public, bureaucrats trying to
find solutions to a lot of these common problems. Prior
(01:34):
to moving to Hawaii, I was in you know, DC,
Virginia area, kind of where you are right now, Steve,
and worked as government affairs and crisis communications professional representing
companies like Tesla and FanDuel. But just a little bit
more about Grassroots too. We were founded in two thousand
and one. We're a nonprofit, nonpartisan policy research organization. We're
(02:00):
really dedicated to lowering the cost of living and trying
to hold the government accountable. You know, this is you know,
especially a parent given the current situation in Lahina, where
we've been advocating for policy reforms that will streamline rebuilding
and expand you know, different housing options. One of our
key principles is a hanakako, which quite literally translates to
(02:24):
let's work together in Hawaiian, and so we really try
to emphasize collaboration across different.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Communities as well as with the state.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Legislature, the county councils, and different bureaucrats and agencies, just
trying to get everybody to work together in one direction.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
That's great. And Jonathan, how about yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
What's your your professional background and what led you to
Grassroot Institute.
Speaker 6 (02:55):
I'm work on the back end of what Ted does,
so I manage a lot of our policy research, especially
in the realm of housing and county level work, especially
focused on property taxes, permitting, and zoning. So when Ted's
meeting with lawmakers, I'm often trying to read up on
the what regulations are doing and trying to find stories
(03:19):
of people who have been affected by these regulations. I
sort of have a different story of getting to Grassroot.
I joined Grassroots several years ago through connection related to
high school debate and arguing about a federal law known
as the Jones Act, which is a really important topic,
probably for another time.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
That's great, And what specifically drew you to the policy
areas that you're currently working on.
Speaker 6 (03:48):
Yeah, looking at Hawaii's housing environment, especially Hawaii has the
highest housing prices of any country, of any state in
the country, and that's why that's become one of our
big focuses recently, especially post pandemic everywhere has seen higher
prices in Hawaii. The prices were already high to begin with,
and they increased extremely after the pandemic. So that's why
(04:10):
we focused our efforts there.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And for people who aren't, you know, familiar with the
regulatory system and why.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I'm sure people are familiar with the natural beauty of Hawaii,
but could you give some background on what the regulatory
system looks like and what exactly does it take to
build a house in Hawaii.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, And that's a great question, Steve.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
I think, you know, like you said, everybody's kind of
they know Hawaii for their natural beauty, but a lot
of times we're kind of this island, you know, in
the middle of the Pacific, in the middle of nowhere
almost and we can kind of be an afterthought for
a lot of the folks on the mainland. But you know,
we deal with a considerable amount of regulatory hurdles when
it comes to building homes here. There's a regulatory index
(05:02):
from University of Pennsylvania, the Wharton Index, that ranks different
states and different localities based on how restrictive they are
on their land use policies. Hawaii is consistently number one
our four counties are consistently ranked in the top ten
(05:25):
or eleven out of all the counties in the country
when it comes to land use regulation, and that those
restrictive housing regulations. High home prices are typically a strong
incentive for developers to build more homes, but the market
can't really react because of all of these restrictions. You
(05:48):
have a lot of homes that were built in like
the fifties, sixties and seventies, right after Hawaii gained statehood,
where it was much easier to build. But nowadays you
really can't do that, and we are dwindling in the
amount of homes that we're building. You know, we have
like six layers we call it like a six layer
cake here at brassroot of housing regulations that you have
(06:11):
to go through. You have the State Land Use Commission.
You have things like the island plans, the community plans.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
Then there's like camp County zoning.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
You have historical districts, and if your property is near
a shoreline, you have special management areas. So you know,
a lot of times we've seen it can take you know,
a decade plus to build a piece of a home
from a raw piece of land, and that's just way
too long, especially during an emergency like we've seen, you know,
(06:43):
with the Lahina fires.
Speaker 6 (06:45):
And let me add something to what Ted just said.
To put this into a number, The University of Hawaii's
Economic Research Organization looked at the effect of regulations on
condo prices, and regulation in Hawaii makes up fifty eight
percent of the cost of a new condominium building. So,
you know, when we say it's the hot you know,
(07:07):
Hawaii has the strictest housing regulations in the country. We
mean it, and it's very clear that that's one of
the reason housing is so expensive here.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
And in terms of you know, this seven layer cake
and all these you know, different land use regulations and
possibly different you know, you have the county and maybe
some other entities that you have.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
To work through.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
How does that impact, you know, the efficiency of rebuilding efforts,
the speed, you know, especially after the horrifying uh fires
in Lahina.
Speaker 6 (07:45):
Yeah, one of the county bureaucrats there on Maui he
said something that I think sort of sums it up.
He said that, you know, Maui County in general is
a pretty regulated place, but Lahina is probably the most
regulated place in Maui County. And the reason for that
is because was on the coast, and building on the
coast in Hawaii always comes with more regulations. Also, it's
(08:10):
a National Historic Landmark, so there's a lot of really
old buildings, a lot of unique sites, and those are
those face additional regulations if you want to build near there.
So you have all of this, you have all of
this seven layer, eight layer cake and it's all in Lahina.
So any anyone looking to rebuild there has has been
(08:31):
facing a pretty uphill battle so far.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Yeah, I mean, just to build on what Jonathan was
saying that the current pace of rebuilding is just way
too slow. So we're eighteen months now after the fire
and we have only six homes that have been rebuilt.
That to me is unacceptable. There are people that are
in temporary housing that are waiting to build their homes
(08:57):
or waiting to get permits. And there's just a lot
of folks that are in limbo. I do want to mention,
I mean they're Lahina has in Maui County has approved
over one hundred and sixty permits, so and that's a
that's a good number. I mean, people are starting, but
(09:19):
there's a lot of different things. Jonathan mentioned these SMA permits,
and if you're near a shoreline, you have to go
through an additional process.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
Luckily, the mayor over.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
In Maui has issued plans to temporarily suspend some of
those rules if you're inland.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
Of Front Street, which was right on the water, but
you know there there is question marks.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
If you're a building that was on the opposite side
of Front Street that.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
Is near the water, you are now going.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
To have to go through SMA still and that process
can take up to a year in permitting. So you know,
I do want to commend Maui. You know, they they
did expedite those properties that were on the mountain side
of the of the road. That's I think six hundred
plus properties that are now not going to have to
(10:16):
go through that SMA permitting process. But you know, it
is important that all of these properties be able to
rebuild what they lost.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
Man Jason had some context for what Ted's saying.
Speaker 6 (10:31):
You know, when we say that you have you face
additional regulations, and you're building near the coast away as
a Special Management Area, and that's areas that they anticipate
will be affected by sea level rise. But within that area,
you have a second area referred to as the Shoreline Area,
and that's even more restrictive. So so you've got some
of these properties that are right near the beach on
(10:54):
Front Street Inlina, and so they're under SMA and Shoreline.
So you know, we're talking about getting two sets of
permits just to even start the process, because even if
you were able to get those two permits, you'd have
to go through all the other normal land use entitlement
processes to just start rebuilding. So you know, when we
(11:16):
say this area is regulated, it's regulated up to the hill.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Yeah, and just to continue our tag teaming here, you know,
even with an SMA, you know expediting process for those
more inland properties, you know, they still have to comply
with all the different regulations, whether it's Historic District permits,
there's the West Maui Community Plan, there's the Cultural Resources Commission,
(11:43):
and then you have it just like your standard county
building permits. So like there's still a lot of layers
that they have to get through just in order to rebuild.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
And what does SMA stand for is that what what
is that particularly.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
Skins for a Special Management Area and again that's sort
of the area of the coast that the state of
anticipates will be affected by sea level rise.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Okay, and then you mentioned there was a there was
a second one as shoreline.
Speaker 6 (12:11):
Yeah, shoreline is even even closer to the coast. Is
so if you have like a beachfront home that would
be in the shoreline area as well as the SMA.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Thank you and so Tad you had mentioned that in
eighteen months after the fires, only six homes have been built.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I mean, for those who.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Are not familiar with the damage that was done to Lahaina, like,
is there a percentage or a raw number of buildings
or homes or structures that were destroyed in in Lahina
just to give give people unfamiliar with Obviously, six homes
is objectively a limited number, especially over eighteen months. But
(12:51):
how much of Lahina was really devastated by the fires?
Speaker 4 (12:54):
I think that I think it was around was it
eleven hundred properties?
Speaker 5 (12:58):
Jonathan, Yeah, I.
Speaker 6 (12:59):
Think there were I think were about two thousand residential
properties that were damaged to some extent is the number
I've seen.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And has there been any response from SMA or you know,
you know, Shoreline separately, or anyone from the county with
regards to why you know, you have this eighteen months
that to only build six homes, Like, do they have
a response or you know, it could be well intentioned
(13:28):
by the way I you know, maybe this is just
a new ground for them to till. But is there
any response as to why things are currently as they
are with the slowness.
Speaker 6 (13:39):
I think the biggest part has been at this point
has been Army Corps of Engineer. They they were they
took charge of actually cleaning up the debris from some
of these lots, and so they it wasn't the county
or the state who was in charge there, so they're
debris clean up on the residential side. They finished in
(13:59):
just under a year, so I think it was it
was July twenty twenty four when they finished the residential
cleanup and they've just now finished the commercial cleanup I
think in January. So that's part of the delay. And
it's not to say that US Army Corps Engineers was
particularly slow or anything, but no one was able to
go in and rebuild until their lot was cleared. So
(14:23):
now that that's been done, you know, we're hopeful that
we'll start to see more of these commercial properties submitting
their applications now that they're cleared to go ahead and
do that.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
And I do think though that there is the government
is taking a bit of a cautious approach when it
comes to.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
Like, you know, erosions.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
We talk about SMAs, whether it's Special Management Area or
the Shoreline Management Area. And I know from talking with
folks that are in Lahaina and county officials that there
is a lot of concern with things like sea level
rise and the changing of the shorelines. But that does
seem a little overly conservative. I mean, I appreciate the
(15:07):
need for a lot of these proactive measures, but at
the same time, we should be allowing people to rebuild
what was lost. You know, this kind of cautious, proactive
approach wasn't necessarily there to protect the people's properties from
the fire, So you know, we really need to look
(15:29):
at ways to rebuild. There's businesses out there like Star
Noodle and Mala Tavern in Lahaina that didn't burn down.
They are on as I mentioned, right on the water,
beautiful restaurants. These places are thriving. Now, why are we
not allowing all of these businesses to be rebuilt and
(15:52):
give them that same chance to thrive again?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
And in the broader context, you know, why hasn't had
a major natural disaster in decades, last one being a
hurricane and Nikki in nineteen ninety two. Is there anything
from that rebuilding experience that can be applied to the
rebuilding of Lahina.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
This was one of the first things we looked at
because Hawaii does not have a lot of experience in
disaster management like California does, so we wanted to see,
you know, what did Kawai County do well after an
Iki hit there in nineteen ninety two. So just for
some context of where Kawaii was, eleven months after the fire,
(16:38):
they had issued about thirty four hundred residential permits for
rebuilding and repair. Now, you know, as Ted mentioned, we're
you know, I think the last time I checked, Maui
was at almost three hundred rebuilding permits for repair. So
eighteen months later, they're nowhere near as close as as
(16:58):
Kawaii was at the time. So, you know, we identified
a couple of things that Kawai did really well. The
first was to open an office of Emergency Permitting, and
this was accomplished in just a couple of months after
the hurricane struck The FEMA paid for some private contractors
to come in and run a office that would expedite
the issue of building permits. So Maui County did listen
(17:22):
to that, and it took them a lot longer to
set that up, but that office is finally running and
to date the office is issuing permits a lot faster
than the count he is. The county average to wait
on a building permit is about two hundred days, but
with the private contractor now helping expedite rebuilding, I think
(17:44):
their average is eighty days, which you know, frankly, is
still a long time, but it's a whole lot better
than your two hundred day way. So we were hopeful
that you know, that got passed, and you know, you
noted that.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
You know, the Grassroot Institute, as you know, obviously is
in you know, policy proposals and things that nature. What
are some specific, you know, policies that you think would
you know, streamline the rebuilding process in Lahaina.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
And if if those have been received, what what are
the status of those of those efforts?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
Yeah, I think what we've seen, I mean, as I mentioned,
the mayor, Mayor Bisson has kind of relaxed some of
those SMA rules. I know there's some bills right now
to do the same thing, but but really kind of
fortify it in law.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
There's a few other rules though.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
So there's another one that is being proposed that would
essentially say that these properties could reap build even if
they didn't conform to current codes. So one of the
problems with an old place like Lahaina is a lot
of those buildings don't like fall under the current building
codes and they're illegal to build, you know, essentially what
(19:15):
was lost. So I think it allows people to It
just makes sense to allow people to rebuild those things.
There's another one that would allow certain properties to not
have to pay building permit fees. And you know that
sounds small, but for some of these bigger properties. So
(19:35):
I was talking with the owner of the Pioneer in
which was a hotel right on Front Street. He was
estimating one of his building permits could cost a half
a million dollars.
Speaker 5 (19:48):
That's significant.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
A lot of these people are still waiting on their
insurance payouts to come through and they don't have that
kind of cash.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Not to mention, I mean, I.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Don't think the government should necessarily be profiting from people
that are just trying to rebuild what they lost, so
trying to exempt some of those problems. And really part
of the problem is that there's been no clear path
forward for the longest time. So that's what we're trying
to help provide, working with the local and state officials
(20:19):
to just try to look through all of these different possibilities.
Jonathan mentioned Hurricane Niki. What did we do then that
worked well? What did we do that that didn't work
so well? And what can we learn from our past
in order to really facilitate a bright future.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
And I want to share a story based off of
something Ted said. So he mentioned the nonconformity rules. So
if your property, you know, didn't meet the current zoning
code because it was really old, you know, then it
would have to be rebuilt to the current zoning code.
So there's a church in Lion called While the Church.
(21:00):
It's one of the one of the oldest churches in Maui.
And of course, you know, the building has been replaced
several times, but the current building they've had there has
been I think it was there since the fifties. That
building was severely damaged in the fire. But you know,
zoning came along at some point, and that church is
(21:22):
in a residential zone, and Maui County code does not
allow churches or temples or any sort of religious meeting
place in residential zones. So if you want to have
a church in one of those zones, you have to
go you have to get a special permit from the
county Planning Commission.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
That's a process that takes a really long time.
Speaker 6 (21:42):
And so one of the measures that the Mali County
Council would do is it would sort of it would
waive those sort of rules. It would say, hey, if
you had a structure that didn't meet zoning code, or
if you had a use such as a meeting place
that didn't meet zoning code, and before the fire, you know,
we're going to waive those rules. So you wouldn't have
(22:02):
to get all these sorts of special exemptions to rebuild
just what you had. And so you know, it's not
this one, just this one church. There's probably half a
dozen churches that are in the same spot in Lahaina,
and you know countless other buildings that because they were
built fifty sixty, seventy years ago, just don't line up
with what's on the books now. And so waiving some
(22:24):
of those zoning rules would help them rebuild, and it
would hopefully keep some of the town's historic charm.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And what's the so Ted had previously mentioned, you know,
the cost a five hundred thousand dollars cost or something
like that for let's say a commercial.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
You know, somebody who owns commercial real estate.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
What's the response you know, of the everyday you know
Hawaiian who lost a small business or their house or
something like that. Is there is there any clear response
from them or are they shell shocked to just buy
the whole? I'm just I'm just thinking about how your
everyday American or someone who's listening to this podcast right now, like,
(23:10):
how would you navigate this if you if if you
weren't a commercial h uh, property owner? How would you
navigate this if you don't have access to like an
attorney or attorneys?
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Yeah, I mean, I've got another story, and just an
entire bank of stories from Lahina, but one comes from
an individual named Joe Pluta. He is the head of
the West Maui Taxpayers Association. He has been in Lahina,
you know, for forever almost and.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
He was telling me this, you know, horror, horrible story.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
About him waking up to the fires essentially in his
face and he had to jump out of a window. Well,
in the months since, he's faced another monster, and that's
the government bureaucracy, and so he again has no path forward.
He's reached so many roadblocks, so many question marks, that
(24:08):
he actually sold his property to his next door neighbor,
who I think ran a bed and breakfast. But you know,
he has not said that he's leaving Malli or anything
like that. I think he's relocated on the island. But
he said, I just can't He's seventy five years old, Steve.
I mean, he can't wait five to ten more years
(24:28):
for the county to kind of get their act together
and allow him to rebuild.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
And so, like, you know, I think people saw, you know,
how shocking it was seeing the fires in Lahina, and
I one of the reasons that I wanted to ask
you all your insights and analysis from your experience responding
to the rebuilding efforts was the recent fires in the
(24:57):
greater Los Angeles area, And you know, I.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Wanted to hear from you all.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
You know, what lessons do you think Los Angeles could
learn from the recovery efforts?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
In Maui.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Yeah. I mean, you know, we mentioned a lot.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Of the bureaucracy, a lot of the red tape that's
holding things up. I think that can be a little
bit of a forecast for what's ahead in Los Angeles.
I mean, if you just look at the scales, the
LA fires made Lahina look small, and at the time,
Lahina was one of the most devastating wildfires in US history.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
So it just goes to show you the.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Impact that people are going to feel in Los Angeles
and really the need to even expedite even further. You know,
Jonathan referenced two thousand structures in Lahina that burned down.
You know, there are exponentially more in California and in
LA that have burned to the ground. So being able
(25:58):
to expedite a lot of those permitting processes. I know
the Governor has made mention over there.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
Governor knew some of of.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
Trying to cut through red tape, which we are surely
in support of. But it really is a shame that
it takes a sort of disaster like this to really
drill down and see what is hurting these things. You know,
Leahina was not was dealing with the housing shortage. Before
the fires, Hawaii as a whole was dealing with the
(26:31):
housing shortage. Same with California and la. You know, there's
they're dealing with these massive shortages and nobody.
Speaker 5 (26:39):
Was really doing anything.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
I mean, there were some small little bills passed, and
now we're starting to see some action. I'm just hopeful
that the wheels get started and that the folks in
l A Are not having to wait as long as
people in Lehina are to rebuild.
Speaker 6 (26:56):
And you, oh good, Johnathan, I'm saying, I think there's
hope if you live in California and they're listening to this.
You know, a lot of a lot of the ideas
that we've seen been discussed in Maui have been some
ideas that were taken from recovery from previous California fires. So,
just as an example, the twenty eighteen Paradise fires in California,
(27:19):
Maui County hired the same permit expeditor that handled they
were building there to manage the rebuilding in Lahaina. So
so I do think there's a lot more institutional knowledge
in California about how to recover from a wildfire. So,
you know, I would certainly be hopeful if I had
lost my home in Los Angeles, that the state of
California can manage that rebuilding a little bit better than
(27:41):
they're doing it here in Hawaii.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
And Ted had referenced, you know, Governor Gavin Husom, governor
of California currently.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Cutting through red tape.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Are there any similarities that you all saw with what
Governor Josh Green did.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Yeah. I want to give Governor Knew some credit and
what California is doing because I mentioned about cutting red tape,
whether it's waving regulatory or environmental laws so that people
can can build back quicker. I think that that has
been really good. I think, again, we just want people
(28:21):
to get back into their homes. But I do want
to caution there were a couple It's not all good necessarily.
There are a couple of executive orders, one dealing specifically
with what they were calling speculators and essentially saying that
you could not go and these developers couldn't try to
(28:44):
buy this land that had burned down, which sounds good
on paper, sounds like, oh, yeah, we shouldn't want these
people speculating on land. But as we've seen in Lahina,
you know, these families might have able to take that
money and go start a new life for themselves, go
(29:05):
build a new house somewhere else on island. So by
taking away that ability, it really kind of hurts the
free market and really is kind of tying people's hands
to their land that is burned to the ground right now.
So you know, that's something that again on its surface,
(29:27):
sounds good. When you really drill down deep, there's some
negative impacts. You know, there's another one here in Lahina
that we saw where a lot of folks were actually
evicting current tenants in order to house a lot of
the fire victims because they were getting more money from
(29:50):
FEMA in order to do so. So you know, there's
some negative impacts as I mentioned, that kind of go
contrary to what you think.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
Originally. You think, well, we should really want to house
these people.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
We're going to pay you know, five thousand and six
thousand dollars for a two bedroom unit, and as a landlord,
these people are looking to cash in almost so you
end up with people that are getting thrown out on
the streets that haven't lost their homes in favor of
people that did. So it's kind of creating a weird
(30:25):
system of haves and have nots, And I do think
that we need to be cautious, especially with some of
these heavy handed emergency proclamations.
Speaker 6 (30:35):
The governor of Hawaii threatened to do something similar and
prevent people from offering to buy the properties of those
who lost their homes in Lahaina. He initially he made
those comments right after the fires happened. He didn't follow
through and issuing any sort of ban. And you know,
as Ted has mentioned, you know, there have been some
people who have decided to sell and either move off
(30:58):
Liland completely or or just relocate pay to other parts
of Maui. So that you know, that ability to to
leave if you want to can be pretty empowering to
some folks.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
And and what's so, you know, with the prior comments
about people being displaced from where they're being housed.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
What what's happening?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
You know, what are some of these obstacles that are
that exist for people who who need temporary housing?
Speaker 6 (31:29):
Yeah, well, gone ahead, Jonathan, I say the temporary housing question.
You know, that's something that we were we were anticipating
there would be a lot of temporary homes built very
quickly because we thought there would be urgency after the fire,
and you know, unfortunately there wasn't that level of urgency
the state. You know, Hawaii's lucky because we have a
(31:51):
lot of hotels, So the state and FEMA paid to
put a lot of the people who are displaced in
hotels in Maui. But in terms of getting that next
level of transitional housing, you know, it took in some
cases almost a year to really get housing on the ground.
You know, Ted is probably gonna tell a story, but
there's a you know, there's a nonprofit in Maui that
(32:13):
had modular.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Homes on the ground.
Speaker 6 (32:16):
Within i think within a month of the fires, and
they were ready to go. And I think even to
this day they haven't gotten all of the permits from
the county to open those homes to folks. And that's
you know, it's just an example of the number of
approvals they had to go through. They had to navigate
their zoning and then the county said, oh, well, you've
(32:38):
got to have these particular sort of water hookups. So
they were trying to find access to drinking water instead
of just being able to you know, bring in some
you know, bring in some big barrels of water just
to you know, really make it a temporary shelter. The
county was treating it like it needed to be something permanent,
and you know, a lot of that, a lot of
the temporary projects were in the same boat where one
(33:02):
rule or another, you know, they got stuck. A lot
of people who would have built temporary housing didn't even
try because they knew what it would take and they
were like, you know, this isn't worth it. We'll try
to help in some other way.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Yeah, I mean, I know multiple projects that were proposed
under the governor's emergency Proclamation that were focused on this
kind of temporary housing.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
But again, it's the lack of clarity quite honestly.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
I mean, and there's a lot of developers and these
are even nonprofit organizations that they didn't want to go
through the process spend the resources for a project that
might be taken down after the emergency proclamation. You know,
they've extended some of the timelines for the temporary housing now,
(33:50):
but it's still a calculated risk when it comes to
building homes, and you know a big part of that
is having the certainty to make sure that the project
is sustainable in the future. I don't know a lot
of people that would spend millions and millions of dollars
on something to then say in five years, oh well
you have to tear it down now. You know, Hawaii
(34:12):
has been dealing with a massive housing shortage, as we've mentioned,
even before the fires. So it's it's unconscionable to me
that we would be tearing down perfectly good units when
we're still dealing with a housing shortage.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
And what role do outdated FIXT your unit rules play
in limiting.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
The recovery process in Maui?
Speaker 6 (34:37):
Yeah, this is this is one of those really really
weird rules that gets in the way. So Maui has
rules related to plumbing. So basically, you know, if you're
going to hook into the county water system, they're going
to limit the number of water using appliances in your house. Okay,
so they're going to put a limit on the number
of toilets, sinks, hose, bibs, et cetera. Okay, So that's
(35:00):
complicated to start with, But to make it even more complicated,
the county hadn't updated any of these rules since nineteen
ninety five, and so so anyone who's looking to rebuild,
they maybe they have a little bit of extra insurance money,
and so they're going to add like a little grainy
flat to their home, or they're going to make their
home a little bigger at a backyard cottage. A lot
(35:23):
of these people have gotten letters from the Department of
Water Supply that say, hey, you have exceeded your limit
of you know, showers, sinks and toilets, so you need
to go in and amend your plans or pay a
bunch of extra money in fees so you can have
these extra units. And we've had, we've had so many
(35:44):
bizarre stories that people have told us about this rule
where you know, they're wanting to add something to their home,
so they will tear out water units from one place
in their home so that they can get their building
permit approved. And it just created all of these strange scenarios. So,
you know, thankfully the County Council recognized that we need
(36:05):
to update these rules that haven't been updated in thirty years,
and so they did pass a bill back in January
that that's telling the Department of Water Supply like, okay, guys,
you need to you need to modernize how you how
you know, you assess people fees for using water it
needs to be based on more than you know, just
the number of toilets in their house. And so, you know,
(36:27):
we're hopeful water supply will will really come up with
something that works. And you know that that doesn't It
didn't fix the fix the problem immediately, but you know,
hopefully over the next six eight months they will get
something together that people don't have to juggle this. This
you know, just another.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Weird rule and is it regulatory inertia or what?
Speaker 5 (36:49):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
You know, ostensibly the people that are working in the
in the county council, you know, they're not trying to
hurt people. Uh so, what do you attribute the fact that,
you know, things have not been updated since nineteen ninety
five in terms of you know, water hookup rule.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
In general, on Maui, there is sort of a skepticism
of really big development coming in and totally changing the landscape.
You know, a lot of the islands in Hawaii don't
want to become Honolulu. They don't want skyscrapers everywhere, and
so you do have some anti development sentiment that I think,
you know, compounding with the fact that a lot of
(37:31):
county agencies are really short staffed. There's high turnover rates.
You add all that together and it's a really good
recipe for as you said, inertia, things don't change because
there's not you know, there's not a lot of people
who out there pushing for things to change. But when
you have a fire, you need to build things quickly.
There's a spotlight shown on all of these inefficiencies, and thankfully,
(37:56):
some of those inefficiencies look like they're going to get corrected.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
So I know, I know some of our listeners have
have probably heard of nimby not in my backyard or
those kind of of of laws or regulations. But could
you guys explain what is yes in God's backyard?
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Yigby?
Speaker 2 (38:17):
What what are those laws and what do they do
and how could they contribute one way or the other
to Maui's recovery efforts.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's been growing recognition, especially
here in Hawaii, that faith based organizations can really help
address the housing crisis. In the state legislature, they passed
a resolution last year asking the counties to essentially look
(38:48):
into their ordinances to allow churches, schools, medical institutions to
build housing.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
On land that they already own.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
The problem is a lot of this land that these
you know, nonprofits. Let's say a church, for example, owns
is not necessarily residential, as Jonathan mentioned, and example, Jonathan
used that the church was actually on residential, but more
often than not, they are on.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
What's called like quasi public or public zoned land.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
And Steve, I know we've talked about this months ago,
but you know there was a project there was the
Community Church of the of the Nazarene. They tried building
some homes. I think Jonathan, you even referenced this earlier.
They were trying to build some homes. The parcel, from
my understanding, is like almost one hundred thousand square feet.
(39:43):
It's but it's zoned public and so you can't put
housing on that land. So they built, you know, all
four walls. They pretty much had everything put together except
the roof, and the county came in and said, nope,
you have to stop work.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
This is not zone for residential. We can't have this.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
So, you know, it's hurting groups like that that want
to help the communities. You know, there's a lot of
these developed or a lot of these nonprofits. They're not
viewed as major housing providers, even though they have prime
real estate in urban and suburban areas.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
So what Yigbee is.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
Trying to do and Yes, in God's Backyard, is really
just trying to allow them to do what they do best,
and that serve the communities.
Speaker 5 (40:33):
You know, these are groups.
Speaker 4 (40:35):
That they want to help, but they haven't had necessarily
a unified push on the state level or county level.
Speaker 5 (40:43):
And quite frankly, there's a lot of complexity.
Speaker 4 (40:45):
So you know, as a church, we talked about this
year long battle, sometimes it takes ten years. There's the
seven eight layer cake that you have to get through.
As a church, you're not focused on that, or as
a cool you're not focused on that.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
You have so many other things going on.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
So adding you know, trying to get through a process
like that makes it to the point where a lot
of these groups don't follow through and they just say, well,
you know, it's not worth it for us, even though
we want to help, we want to be there, it's
just not worth all the headaches.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
So you know, there's a lot to learn.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
California did a similar bill, I think it was as
before that. We've actually been trying to do a model
here in Hawaii based off of SB four. It allows churches,
nonprofits to build housing by right, which is huge. It
means what project meets zoning and safety standards, it can
move forward without discretionary approvals. It removes a lot of
(41:47):
delays and lawsuits that can kill projects. You know, I
mean SB four isn't without some of its issues. There's
like a fifty five year affordability requirement. They require you know,
prevailing wages, which obviously drive up the cost of construction projects.
Speaker 5 (42:09):
So there are some things that we can improve upon.
Speaker 4 (42:12):
But we're really hopeful that the state as well as
the counties will take this up and really allow these
nonprofits to get involved in the housing shortage.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
And Ted and Jonathan, if if our listeners want to
find out more about the work that you all do
at the Grassroot Institute of why where could they find
that work?
Speaker 6 (42:37):
Easiest place is a grass Root that's Grassroots with nos
Institute dot org. We've got policy briefs. We're really active
on Instagram, so you can go to our website. There's
a link to our Instagram. You can also sign up
for our newsletter. Those are the two best ways to
learn more about us. And you know, Ted and I
(42:58):
always happy to chat with anyone about about housing policy, rebuilding, Lahaina,
and happy to offer what lessons that you know we've
learned for you know, anywhere in the US that's faced
with these similar issues.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Well, Ted and Jonathan, thank you for joining us today.
Thank you for sharing your insights and analysis. For more
information like this on regulation, UH and the American way
of life, please visit reg project dot org. That's reg
Project dot org.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
On behalf of the Federal Society's Regulatory Transparency Project. Thanks
for tuning in to the Fourth Branch podcast to catch
every new episode when it's released. You can subscribe on
Apple Podcasts, Google Play, and Speaker For lates from our TP,
please visit our website at reg Project dot org. That's
our eg project dot org.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
This has been a fed Sock audio production YAHM.
Welcome to the Regulatory Transparency Project's Fourth Branch podcast series.
All expressions of opinion are those of the speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to the Regulatory Transparency Project's Fourth Branch podcast My
name is Steve Schaffer and I'm the director of the
Regulatory Transparency Project. Thank you for being with us. I
am pleased today to speak with two experts, Ted Cafalis
and Jonathan Helton from the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii about
the regulatory environment and why, the ability to rebuild and
why after the wildfires that severely damaged the city of Volhina,
(00:41):
and to explore what lessons can be learned from Hawaii's
experience and applied to California's rebuilding efforts after the Pacific
Palisades fires. Note, as always, the Federal Society takes no
position on any issues, and the opinions expressed are those
of the experts.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
So, Ted, Jonathan, thank you for being with us today.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Before we get started, you know, tell us a little
bit about yourselves and the Grassroot Institute of Hawaii.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Ted, how about we start with you.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Yeah, absolutely, Well, thanks for having us, Steve. I mean,
this is a really important issue. I work as the
director of strategic campaigns at Grassroots Institute and also work
as our registered lobbyists, So I'm kind of on the
ground working with legislators, the general public, bureaucrats trying to
find solutions to a lot of these common problems. Prior
(01:34):
to moving to Hawaii, I was in you know, DC,
Virginia area, kind of where you are right now, Steve,
and worked as government affairs and crisis communications professional representing
companies like Tesla and FanDuel. But just a little bit
more about Grassroots too. We were founded in two thousand
and one. We're a nonprofit, nonpartisan policy research organization. We're
(02:00):
really dedicated to lowering the cost of living and trying
to hold the government accountable. You know, this is you know,
especially a parent given the current situation in Lahina, where
we've been advocating for policy reforms that will streamline rebuilding
and expand you know, different housing options. One of our
key principles is a hanakako, which quite literally translates to
(02:24):
let's work together in Hawaiian, and so we really try
to emphasize collaboration across different.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Communities as well as with the state.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Legislature, the county councils, and different bureaucrats and agencies, just
trying to get everybody to work together in one direction.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
That's great. And Jonathan, how about yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
What's your your professional background and what led you to
Grassroot Institute.
Speaker 6 (02:55):
I'm work on the back end of what Ted does,
so I manage a lot of our policy research, especially
in the realm of housing and county level work, especially
focused on property taxes, permitting, and zoning. So when Ted's
meeting with lawmakers, I'm often trying to read up on
the what regulations are doing and trying to find stories
(03:19):
of people who have been affected by these regulations. I
sort of have a different story of getting to Grassroot.
I joined Grassroots several years ago through connection related to
high school debate and arguing about a federal law known
as the Jones Act, which is a really important topic,
probably for another time.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
That's great, And what specifically drew you to the policy
areas that you're currently working on.
Speaker 6 (03:48):
Yeah, looking at Hawaii's housing environment, especially Hawaii has the
highest housing prices of any country, of any state in
the country, and that's why that's become one of our
big focuses recently, especially post pandemic everywhere has seen higher
prices in Hawaii. The prices were already high to begin with,
and they increased extremely after the pandemic. So that's why
(04:10):
we focused our efforts there.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And for people who aren't, you know, familiar with the
regulatory system and why.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I'm sure people are familiar with the natural beauty of Hawaii,
but could you give some background on what the regulatory
system looks like and what exactly does it take to
build a house in Hawaii.
Speaker 5 (04:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, And that's a great question, Steve.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
I think, you know, like you said, everybody's kind of
they know Hawaii for their natural beauty, but a lot
of times we're kind of this island, you know, in
the middle of the Pacific, in the middle of nowhere
almost and we can kind of be an afterthought for
a lot of the folks on the mainland. But you know,
we deal with a considerable amount of regulatory hurdles when
it comes to building homes here. There's a regulatory index
(05:02):
from University of Pennsylvania, the Wharton Index, that ranks different
states and different localities based on how restrictive they are
on their land use policies. Hawaii is consistently number one
our four counties are consistently ranked in the top ten
(05:25):
or eleven out of all the counties in the country
when it comes to land use regulation, and that those
restrictive housing regulations. High home prices are typically a strong
incentive for developers to build more homes, but the market
can't really react because of all of these restrictions. You
(05:48):
have a lot of homes that were built in like
the fifties, sixties and seventies, right after Hawaii gained statehood,
where it was much easier to build. But nowadays you
really can't do that, and we are dwindling in the
amount of homes that we're building. You know, we have
like six layers we call it like a six layer
cake here at brassroot of housing regulations that you have
(06:11):
to go through. You have the State Land Use Commission.
You have things like the island plans, the community plans.
Speaker 5 (06:18):
Then there's like camp County zoning.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
You have historical districts, and if your property is near
a shoreline, you have special management areas. So you know,
a lot of times we've seen it can take you know,
a decade plus to build a piece of a home
from a raw piece of land, and that's just way
too long, especially during an emergency like we've seen, you know,
(06:43):
with the Lahina fires.
Speaker 6 (06:45):
And let me add something to what Ted just said.
To put this into a number, The University of Hawaii's
Economic Research Organization looked at the effect of regulations on
condo prices, and regulation in Hawaii makes up fifty eight
percent of the cost of a new condominium building. So,
you know, when we say it's the hot you know,
(07:07):
Hawaii has the strictest housing regulations in the country. We
mean it, and it's very clear that that's one of
the reason housing is so expensive here.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
And in terms of you know, this seven layer cake
and all these you know, different land use regulations and
possibly different you know, you have the county and maybe
some other entities that you have.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
To work through.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
How does that impact, you know, the efficiency of rebuilding efforts,
the speed, you know, especially after the horrifying uh fires
in Lahina.
Speaker 6 (07:45):
Yeah, one of the county bureaucrats there on Maui he
said something that I think sort of sums it up.
He said that, you know, Maui County in general is
a pretty regulated place, but Lahina is probably the most
regulated place in Maui County. And the reason for that
is because was on the coast, and building on the
coast in Hawaii always comes with more regulations. Also, it's
(08:10):
a National Historic Landmark, so there's a lot of really
old buildings, a lot of unique sites, and those are
those face additional regulations if you want to build near there.
So you have all of this, you have all of
this seven layer, eight layer cake and it's all in Lahina.
So any anyone looking to rebuild there has has been
(08:31):
facing a pretty uphill battle so far.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Yeah, I mean, just to build on what Jonathan was
saying that the current pace of rebuilding is just way
too slow. So we're eighteen months now after the fire
and we have only six homes that have been rebuilt.
That to me is unacceptable. There are people that are
in temporary housing that are waiting to build their homes
(08:57):
or waiting to get permits. And there's just a lot
of folks that are in limbo. I do want to mention,
I mean they're Lahina has in Maui County has approved
over one hundred and sixty permits, so and that's a
that's a good number. I mean, people are starting, but
(09:19):
there's a lot of different things. Jonathan mentioned these SMA permits,
and if you're near a shoreline, you have to go
through an additional process.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
Luckily, the mayor over.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
In Maui has issued plans to temporarily suspend some of
those rules if you're inland.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
Of Front Street, which was right on the water, but
you know there there is question marks.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
If you're a building that was on the opposite side
of Front Street that.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
Is near the water, you are now going.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
To have to go through SMA still and that process
can take up to a year in permitting. So you know,
I do want to commend Maui. You know, they they
did expedite those properties that were on the mountain side
of the of the road. That's I think six hundred
plus properties that are now not going to have to
(10:16):
go through that SMA permitting process. But you know, it
is important that all of these properties be able to
rebuild what they lost.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
Man Jason had some context for what Ted's saying.
Speaker 6 (10:31):
You know, when we say that you have you face
additional regulations, and you're building near the coast away as
a Special Management Area, and that's areas that they anticipate
will be affected by sea level rise. But within that area,
you have a second area referred to as the Shoreline Area,
and that's even more restrictive. So so you've got some
of these properties that are right near the beach on
(10:54):
Front Street Inlina, and so they're under SMA and Shoreline.
So you know, we're talking about getting two sets of
permits just to even start the process, because even if
you were able to get those two permits, you'd have
to go through all the other normal land use entitlement
processes to just start rebuilding. So you know, when we
(11:16):
say this area is regulated, it's regulated up to the hill.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Yeah, and just to continue our tag teaming here, you know,
even with an SMA, you know expediting process for those
more inland properties, you know, they still have to comply
with all the different regulations, whether it's Historic District permits,
there's the West Maui Community Plan, there's the Cultural Resources Commission,
(11:43):
and then you have it just like your standard county
building permits. So like there's still a lot of layers
that they have to get through just in order to rebuild.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
And what does SMA stand for is that what what
is that particularly.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
Skins for a Special Management Area and again that's sort
of the area of the coast that the state of
anticipates will be affected by sea level rise.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Okay, and then you mentioned there was a there was
a second one as shoreline.
Speaker 6 (12:11):
Yeah, shoreline is even even closer to the coast. Is
so if you have like a beachfront home that would
be in the shoreline area as well as the SMA.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Thank you and so Tad you had mentioned that in
eighteen months after the fires, only six homes have been built.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I mean, for those who.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Are not familiar with the damage that was done to Lahaina, like,
is there a percentage or a raw number of buildings
or homes or structures that were destroyed in in Lahina
just to give give people unfamiliar with Obviously, six homes
is objectively a limited number, especially over eighteen months. But
(12:51):
how much of Lahina was really devastated by the fires?
Speaker 4 (12:54):
I think that I think it was around was it
eleven hundred properties?
Speaker 5 (12:58):
Jonathan, Yeah, I.
Speaker 6 (12:59):
Think there were I think were about two thousand residential
properties that were damaged to some extent is the number
I've seen.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And has there been any response from SMA or you know,
you know, Shoreline separately, or anyone from the county with
regards to why you know, you have this eighteen months
that to only build six homes, Like, do they have
a response or you know, it could be well intentioned
(13:28):
by the way I you know, maybe this is just
a new ground for them to till. But is there
any response as to why things are currently as they
are with the slowness.
Speaker 6 (13:39):
I think the biggest part has been at this point
has been Army Corps of Engineer. They they were they
took charge of actually cleaning up the debris from some
of these lots, and so they it wasn't the county
or the state who was in charge there, so they're
debris clean up on the residential side. They finished in
(13:59):
just under a year, so I think it was it
was July twenty twenty four when they finished the residential
cleanup and they've just now finished the commercial cleanup I
think in January. So that's part of the delay. And
it's not to say that US Army Corps Engineers was
particularly slow or anything, but no one was able to
go in and rebuild until their lot was cleared. So
(14:23):
now that that's been done, you know, we're hopeful that
we'll start to see more of these commercial properties submitting
their applications now that they're cleared to go ahead and
do that.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
And I do think though that there is the government
is taking a bit of a cautious approach when it
comes to.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
Like, you know, erosions.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
We talk about SMAs, whether it's Special Management Area or
the Shoreline Management Area. And I know from talking with
folks that are in Lahaina and county officials that there
is a lot of concern with things like sea level
rise and the changing of the shorelines. But that does
seem a little overly conservative. I mean, I appreciate the
(15:07):
need for a lot of these proactive measures, but at
the same time, we should be allowing people to rebuild
what was lost. You know, this kind of cautious, proactive
approach wasn't necessarily there to protect the people's properties from
the fire, So you know, we really need to look
(15:29):
at ways to rebuild. There's businesses out there like Star
Noodle and Mala Tavern in Lahaina that didn't burn down.
They are on as I mentioned, right on the water,
beautiful restaurants. These places are thriving. Now, why are we
not allowing all of these businesses to be rebuilt and
(15:52):
give them that same chance to thrive again?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
And in the broader context, you know, why hasn't had
a major natural disaster in decades, last one being a
hurricane and Nikki in nineteen ninety two. Is there anything
from that rebuilding experience that can be applied to the
rebuilding of Lahina.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
This was one of the first things we looked at
because Hawaii does not have a lot of experience in
disaster management like California does, so we wanted to see,
you know, what did Kawai County do well after an
Iki hit there in nineteen ninety two. So just for
some context of where Kawaii was, eleven months after the fire,
(16:38):
they had issued about thirty four hundred residential permits for
rebuilding and repair. Now, you know, as Ted mentioned, we're
you know, I think the last time I checked, Maui
was at almost three hundred rebuilding permits for repair. So
eighteen months later, they're nowhere near as close as as
(16:58):
Kawaii was at the time. So, you know, we identified
a couple of things that Kawai did really well. The
first was to open an office of Emergency Permitting, and
this was accomplished in just a couple of months after
the hurricane struck The FEMA paid for some private contractors
to come in and run a office that would expedite
the issue of building permits. So Maui County did listen
(17:22):
to that, and it took them a lot longer to
set that up, but that office is finally running and
to date the office is issuing permits a lot faster
than the count he is. The county average to wait
on a building permit is about two hundred days, but
with the private contractor now helping expedite rebuilding, I think
(17:44):
their average is eighty days, which you know, frankly, is
still a long time, but it's a whole lot better
than your two hundred day way. So we were hopeful
that you know, that got passed, and you know, you
noted that.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
You know, the Grassroot Institute, as you know, obviously is
in you know, policy proposals and things that nature. What
are some specific, you know, policies that you think would
you know, streamline the rebuilding process in Lahaina.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
And if if those have been received, what what are
the status of those of those efforts?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
Yeah, I think what we've seen, I mean, as I mentioned,
the mayor, Mayor Bisson has kind of relaxed some of
those SMA rules. I know there's some bills right now
to do the same thing, but but really kind of
fortify it in law.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
There's a few other rules though.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
So there's another one that is being proposed that would
essentially say that these properties could reap build even if
they didn't conform to current codes. So one of the
problems with an old place like Lahaina is a lot
of those buildings don't like fall under the current building
codes and they're illegal to build, you know, essentially what
(19:15):
was lost. So I think it allows people to It
just makes sense to allow people to rebuild those things.
There's another one that would allow certain properties to not
have to pay building permit fees. And you know that
sounds small, but for some of these bigger properties. So
(19:35):
I was talking with the owner of the Pioneer in
which was a hotel right on Front Street. He was
estimating one of his building permits could cost a half
a million dollars.
Speaker 5 (19:48):
That's significant.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
A lot of these people are still waiting on their
insurance payouts to come through and they don't have that
kind of cash.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Not to mention, I mean, I.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Don't think the government should necessarily be profiting from people
that are just trying to rebuild what they lost, so
trying to exempt some of those problems. And really part
of the problem is that there's been no clear path
forward for the longest time. So that's what we're trying
to help provide, working with the local and state officials
(20:19):
to just try to look through all of these different possibilities.
Jonathan mentioned Hurricane Niki. What did we do then that
worked well? What did we do that that didn't work
so well? And what can we learn from our past
in order to really facilitate a bright future.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
And I want to share a story based off of
something Ted said. So he mentioned the nonconformity rules. So
if your property, you know, didn't meet the current zoning
code because it was really old, you know, then it
would have to be rebuilt to the current zoning code.
So there's a church in Lion called While the Church.
(21:00):
It's one of the one of the oldest churches in Maui.
And of course, you know, the building has been replaced
several times, but the current building they've had there has
been I think it was there since the fifties. That
building was severely damaged in the fire. But you know,
zoning came along at some point, and that church is
(21:22):
in a residential zone, and Maui County code does not
allow churches or temples or any sort of religious meeting
place in residential zones. So if you want to have
a church in one of those zones, you have to
go you have to get a special permit from the
county Planning Commission.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
That's a process that takes a really long time.
Speaker 6 (21:42):
And so one of the measures that the Mali County
Council would do is it would sort of it would
waive those sort of rules. It would say, hey, if
you had a structure that didn't meet zoning code, or
if you had a use such as a meeting place
that didn't meet zoning code, and before the fire, you know,
we're going to waive those rules. So you wouldn't have
(22:02):
to get all these sorts of special exemptions to rebuild
just what you had. And so you know, it's not
this one, just this one church. There's probably half a
dozen churches that are in the same spot in Lahaina,
and you know countless other buildings that because they were
built fifty sixty, seventy years ago, just don't line up
with what's on the books now. And so waiving some
(22:24):
of those zoning rules would help them rebuild, and it
would hopefully keep some of the town's historic charm.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
And what's the so Ted had previously mentioned, you know,
the cost a five hundred thousand dollars cost or something
like that for let's say a commercial.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
You know, somebody who owns commercial real estate.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
What's the response you know, of the everyday you know
Hawaiian who lost a small business or their house or
something like that. Is there is there any clear response
from them or are they shell shocked to just buy
the whole? I'm just I'm just thinking about how your
everyday American or someone who's listening to this podcast right now, like,
(23:10):
how would you navigate this if you if if you
weren't a commercial h uh, property owner? How would you
navigate this if you don't have access to like an
attorney or attorneys?
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Yeah, I mean, I've got another story, and just an
entire bank of stories from Lahina, but one comes from
an individual named Joe Pluta. He is the head of
the West Maui Taxpayers Association. He has been in Lahina,
you know, for forever almost and.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
He was telling me this, you know, horror, horrible story.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
About him waking up to the fires essentially in his
face and he had to jump out of a window. Well,
in the months since, he's faced another monster, and that's
the government bureaucracy, and so he again has no path forward.
He's reached so many roadblocks, so many question marks, that
(24:08):
he actually sold his property to his next door neighbor,
who I think ran a bed and breakfast. But you know,
he has not said that he's leaving Malli or anything
like that. I think he's relocated on the island. But
he said, I just can't He's seventy five years old, Steve.
I mean, he can't wait five to ten more years
(24:28):
for the county to kind of get their act together
and allow him to rebuild.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
And so, like, you know, I think people saw, you know,
how shocking it was seeing the fires in Lahina, and
I one of the reasons that I wanted to ask
you all your insights and analysis from your experience responding
to the rebuilding efforts was the recent fires in the
(24:57):
greater Los Angeles area, And you know, I.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Wanted to hear from you all.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
You know, what lessons do you think Los Angeles could
learn from the recovery efforts?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
In Maui.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Yeah. I mean, you know, we mentioned a lot.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Of the bureaucracy, a lot of the red tape that's
holding things up. I think that can be a little
bit of a forecast for what's ahead in Los Angeles.
I mean, if you just look at the scales, the
LA fires made Lahina look small, and at the time,
Lahina was one of the most devastating wildfires in US history.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
So it just goes to show you the.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Impact that people are going to feel in Los Angeles
and really the need to even expedite even further. You know,
Jonathan referenced two thousand structures in Lahina that burned down.
You know, there are exponentially more in California and in
LA that have burned to the ground. So being able
(25:58):
to expedite a lot of those permitting processes. I know
the Governor has made mention over there.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
Governor knew some of of.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
Trying to cut through red tape, which we are surely
in support of. But it really is a shame that
it takes a sort of disaster like this to really
drill down and see what is hurting these things. You know,
Leahina was not was dealing with the housing shortage. Before
the fires, Hawaii as a whole was dealing with the
(26:31):
housing shortage. Same with California and la. You know, there's
they're dealing with these massive shortages and nobody.
Speaker 5 (26:39):
Was really doing anything.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
I mean, there were some small little bills passed, and
now we're starting to see some action. I'm just hopeful
that the wheels get started and that the folks in
l A Are not having to wait as long as
people in Lehina are to rebuild.
Speaker 6 (26:56):
And you, oh good, Johnathan, I'm saying, I think there's
hope if you live in California and they're listening to this.
You know, a lot of a lot of the ideas
that we've seen been discussed in Maui have been some
ideas that were taken from recovery from previous California fires. So,
just as an example, the twenty eighteen Paradise fires in California,
(27:19):
Maui County hired the same permit expeditor that handled they
were building there to manage the rebuilding in Lahaina. So
so I do think there's a lot more institutional knowledge
in California about how to recover from a wildfire. So,
you know, I would certainly be hopeful if I had
lost my home in Los Angeles, that the state of
California can manage that rebuilding a little bit better than
(27:41):
they're doing it here in Hawaii.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
And Ted had referenced, you know, Governor Gavin Husom, governor
of California currently.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Cutting through red tape.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Are there any similarities that you all saw with what
Governor Josh Green did.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Yeah. I want to give Governor Knew some credit and
what California is doing because I mentioned about cutting red tape,
whether it's waving regulatory or environmental laws so that people
can can build back quicker. I think that that has
been really good. I think, again, we just want people
(28:21):
to get back into their homes. But I do want
to caution there were a couple It's not all good necessarily.
There are a couple of executive orders, one dealing specifically
with what they were calling speculators and essentially saying that
you could not go and these developers couldn't try to
(28:44):
buy this land that had burned down, which sounds good
on paper, sounds like, oh, yeah, we shouldn't want these
people speculating on land. But as we've seen in Lahina,
you know, these families might have able to take that
money and go start a new life for themselves, go
(29:05):
build a new house somewhere else on island. So by
taking away that ability, it really kind of hurts the
free market and really is kind of tying people's hands
to their land that is burned to the ground right now.
So you know, that's something that again on its surface,
(29:27):
sounds good. When you really drill down deep, there's some
negative impacts. You know, there's another one here in Lahina
that we saw where a lot of folks were actually
evicting current tenants in order to house a lot of
the fire victims because they were getting more money from
(29:50):
FEMA in order to do so. So you know, there's
some negative impacts as I mentioned, that kind of go
contrary to what you think.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
Originally. You think, well, we should really want to house
these people.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
We're going to pay you know, five thousand and six
thousand dollars for a two bedroom unit, and as a landlord,
these people are looking to cash in almost so you
end up with people that are getting thrown out on
the streets that haven't lost their homes in favor of
people that did. So it's kind of creating a weird
(30:25):
system of haves and have nots, And I do think
that we need to be cautious, especially with some of
these heavy handed emergency proclamations.
Speaker 6 (30:35):
The governor of Hawaii threatened to do something similar and
prevent people from offering to buy the properties of those
who lost their homes in Lahaina. He initially he made
those comments right after the fires happened. He didn't follow
through and issuing any sort of ban. And you know,
as Ted has mentioned, you know, there have been some
people who have decided to sell and either move off
(30:58):
Liland completely or or just relocate pay to other parts
of Maui. So that you know, that ability to to
leave if you want to can be pretty empowering to
some folks.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
And and what's so, you know, with the prior comments
about people being displaced from where they're being housed.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
What what's happening?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
You know, what are some of these obstacles that are
that exist for people who who need temporary housing?
Speaker 6 (31:29):
Yeah, well, gone ahead, Jonathan, I say the temporary housing question.
You know, that's something that we were we were anticipating
there would be a lot of temporary homes built very
quickly because we thought there would be urgency after the fire,
and you know, unfortunately there wasn't that level of urgency
the state. You know, Hawaii's lucky because we have a
(31:51):
lot of hotels, So the state and FEMA paid to
put a lot of the people who are displaced in
hotels in Maui. But in terms of getting that next
level of transitional housing, you know, it took in some
cases almost a year to really get housing on the ground.
You know, Ted is probably gonna tell a story, but
there's a you know, there's a nonprofit in Maui that
(32:13):
had modular.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Homes on the ground.
Speaker 6 (32:16):
Within i think within a month of the fires, and
they were ready to go. And I think even to
this day they haven't gotten all of the permits from
the county to open those homes to folks. And that's
you know, it's just an example of the number of
approvals they had to go through. They had to navigate
their zoning and then the county said, oh, well, you've
(32:38):
got to have these particular sort of water hookups. So
they were trying to find access to drinking water instead
of just being able to you know, bring in some
you know, bring in some big barrels of water just
to you know, really make it a temporary shelter. The
county was treating it like it needed to be something permanent,
and you know, a lot of that, a lot of
the temporary projects were in the same boat where one
(33:02):
rule or another, you know, they got stuck. A lot
of people who would have built temporary housing didn't even
try because they knew what it would take and they
were like, you know, this isn't worth it. We'll try
to help in some other way.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Yeah, I mean, I know multiple projects that were proposed
under the governor's emergency Proclamation that were focused on this
kind of temporary housing.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
But again, it's the lack of clarity quite honestly.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
I mean, and there's a lot of developers and these
are even nonprofit organizations that they didn't want to go
through the process spend the resources for a project that
might be taken down after the emergency proclamation. You know,
they've extended some of the timelines for the temporary housing now,
(33:50):
but it's still a calculated risk when it comes to
building homes, and you know a big part of that
is having the certainty to make sure that the project
is sustainable in the future. I don't know a lot
of people that would spend millions and millions of dollars
on something to then say in five years, oh well
you have to tear it down now. You know, Hawaii
(34:12):
has been dealing with a massive housing shortage, as we've mentioned,
even before the fires. So it's it's unconscionable to me
that we would be tearing down perfectly good units when
we're still dealing with a housing shortage.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
And what role do outdated FIXT your unit rules play
in limiting.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
The recovery process in Maui?
Speaker 6 (34:37):
Yeah, this is this is one of those really really
weird rules that gets in the way. So Maui has
rules related to plumbing. So basically, you know, if you're
going to hook into the county water system, they're going
to limit the number of water using appliances in your house. Okay,
so they're going to put a limit on the number
of toilets, sinks, hose, bibs, et cetera. Okay, So that's
(35:00):
complicated to start with, But to make it even more complicated,
the county hadn't updated any of these rules since nineteen
ninety five, and so so anyone who's looking to rebuild,
they maybe they have a little bit of extra insurance money,
and so they're going to add like a little grainy
flat to their home, or they're going to make their
home a little bigger at a backyard cottage. A lot
(35:23):
of these people have gotten letters from the Department of
Water Supply that say, hey, you have exceeded your limit
of you know, showers, sinks and toilets, so you need
to go in and amend your plans or pay a
bunch of extra money in fees so you can have
these extra units. And we've had, we've had so many
(35:44):
bizarre stories that people have told us about this rule
where you know, they're wanting to add something to their home,
so they will tear out water units from one place
in their home so that they can get their building
permit approved. And it just created all of these strange scenarios. So,
you know, thankfully the County Council recognized that we need
(36:05):
to update these rules that haven't been updated in thirty years,
and so they did pass a bill back in January
that that's telling the Department of Water Supply like, okay, guys,
you need to you need to modernize how you how
you know, you assess people fees for using water it
needs to be based on more than you know, just
the number of toilets in their house. And so, you know,
(36:27):
we're hopeful water supply will will really come up with
something that works. And you know that that doesn't It
didn't fix the fix the problem immediately, but you know,
hopefully over the next six eight months they will get
something together that people don't have to juggle this. This
you know, just another.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Weird rule and is it regulatory inertia or what?
Speaker 5 (36:49):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
You know, ostensibly the people that are working in the
in the county council, you know, they're not trying to
hurt people. Uh so, what do you attribute the fact that,
you know, things have not been updated since nineteen ninety
five in terms of you know, water hookup rule.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
In general, on Maui, there is sort of a skepticism
of really big development coming in and totally changing the landscape.
You know, a lot of the islands in Hawaii don't
want to become Honolulu. They don't want skyscrapers everywhere, and
so you do have some anti development sentiment that I think,
you know, compounding with the fact that a lot of
(37:31):
county agencies are really short staffed. There's high turnover rates.
You add all that together and it's a really good
recipe for as you said, inertia, things don't change because
there's not you know, there's not a lot of people
who out there pushing for things to change. But when
you have a fire, you need to build things quickly.
There's a spotlight shown on all of these inefficiencies, and thankfully,
(37:56):
some of those inefficiencies look like they're going to get corrected.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
So I know, I know some of our listeners have
have probably heard of nimby not in my backyard or
those kind of of of laws or regulations. But could
you guys explain what is yes in God's backyard?
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Yigby?
Speaker 2 (38:17):
What what are those laws and what do they do
and how could they contribute one way or the other
to Maui's recovery efforts.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's been growing recognition, especially
here in Hawaii, that faith based organizations can really help
address the housing crisis. In the state legislature, they passed
a resolution last year asking the counties to essentially look
(38:48):
into their ordinances to allow churches, schools, medical institutions to
build housing.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
On land that they already own.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
The problem is a lot of this land that these
you know, nonprofits. Let's say a church, for example, owns
is not necessarily residential, as Jonathan mentioned, and example, Jonathan
used that the church was actually on residential, but more
often than not, they are on.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
What's called like quasi public or public zoned land.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
And Steve, I know we've talked about this months ago,
but you know there was a project there was the
Community Church of the of the Nazarene. They tried building
some homes. I think Jonathan, you even referenced this earlier.
They were trying to build some homes. The parcel, from
my understanding, is like almost one hundred thousand square feet.
(39:43):
It's but it's zoned public and so you can't put
housing on that land. So they built, you know, all
four walls. They pretty much had everything put together except
the roof, and the county came in and said, nope,
you have to stop work.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
This is not zone for residential. We can't have this.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
So, you know, it's hurting groups like that that want
to help the communities. You know, there's a lot of
these developed or a lot of these nonprofits. They're not
viewed as major housing providers, even though they have prime
real estate in urban and suburban areas.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
So what Yigbee is.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
Trying to do and Yes, in God's Backyard, is really
just trying to allow them to do what they do best,
and that serve the communities.
Speaker 5 (40:33):
You know, these are groups.
Speaker 4 (40:35):
That they want to help, but they haven't had necessarily
a unified push on the state level or county level.
Speaker 5 (40:43):
And quite frankly, there's a lot of complexity.
Speaker 4 (40:45):
So you know, as a church, we talked about this
year long battle, sometimes it takes ten years. There's the
seven eight layer cake that you have to get through.
As a church, you're not focused on that, or as
a cool you're not focused on that.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
You have so many other things going on.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
So adding you know, trying to get through a process
like that makes it to the point where a lot
of these groups don't follow through and they just say, well,
you know, it's not worth it for us, even though
we want to help, we want to be there, it's
just not worth all the headaches.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
So you know, there's a lot to learn.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
California did a similar bill, I think it was as
before that. We've actually been trying to do a model
here in Hawaii based off of SB four. It allows churches,
nonprofits to build housing by right, which is huge. It
means what project meets zoning and safety standards, it can
move forward without discretionary approvals. It removes a lot of
(41:47):
delays and lawsuits that can kill projects. You know, I
mean SB four isn't without some of its issues. There's
like a fifty five year affordability requirement. They require you know,
prevailing wages, which obviously drive up the cost of construction projects.
Speaker 5 (42:09):
So there are some things that we can improve upon.
Speaker 4 (42:12):
But we're really hopeful that the state as well as
the counties will take this up and really allow these
nonprofits to get involved in the housing shortage.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
And Ted and Jonathan, if if our listeners want to
find out more about the work that you all do
at the Grassroot Institute of why where could they find
that work?
Speaker 6 (42:37):
Easiest place is a grass Root that's Grassroots with nos
Institute dot org. We've got policy briefs. We're really active
on Instagram, so you can go to our website. There's
a link to our Instagram. You can also sign up
for our newsletter. Those are the two best ways to
learn more about us. And you know, Ted and I
(42:58):
always happy to chat with anyone about about housing policy, rebuilding, Lahaina,
and happy to offer what lessons that you know we've
learned for you know, anywhere in the US that's faced
with these similar issues.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Well, Ted and Jonathan, thank you for joining us today.
Thank you for sharing your insights and analysis. For more
information like this on regulation, UH and the American way
of life, please visit reg project dot org. That's reg
Project dot org.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
On behalf of the Federal Society's Regulatory Transparency Project. Thanks
for tuning in to the Fourth Branch podcast to catch
every new episode when it's released. You can subscribe on
Apple Podcasts, Google Play, and Speaker For lates from our TP,
please visit our website at reg Project dot org. That's
our eg project dot org.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
This has been a fed Sock audio production YAHM.
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