Rugby Direct - Episode 128

This week on Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier are in Christchurch following the All Blacks squad announcement and reflect on the five new names in the squad of 32, as well as the big omissions from the group including Hoskins Sotutu and Ruben Love.

We also hear from All Blacks forwards coach Jason Ryan and uncapped prop Pasilio Tosi.

We also dig into a dominant Blues performance in the Super Rugby final against the Chiefs, that ended their 24 year drought.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from news Talks EDB. Follow
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Yet inside the game from every angle.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith, powered by news Talks EDB.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by habit Health, tackling all
your aches and pains from sport and work. Get online
at habit dot health to get back in the game faster.
We are back in the game. We are back in
the people city of christ. Your joys a special treat
when we record Rugby Direct in the Garden City. And Liam,
I know you're excited to be here. I certainly am

(00:45):
because it's my hometown. But Liam, I know you've always
had a special affinity with the Garden City. So welcome
back and good to have you here.

Speaker 4 (00:52):
Yeah, welcome home, Elliott. It is good to be here.
It almost didn't make it with the rain and the fog.
And I did notice something though, just wandering around town,
through the airports, around the shops. The kebinet just s
looking Bear.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
That's all right, you know you can't win them all.
We'll get onto the super Rugby final bit later in
the podcast. The reason, of course that we are here?
Is the is the All Blacks squad announced last night
as it was as we record this thirty two man
squad and look awards a special occasion when the All
Black to name but leam perhaps a bit more special
this time, Gaven. We have a new coach, new management

(01:32):
and also there's always new players, but also a new captain.
It all felt very new, very fresh, and we've ended
with a thirty two man squad that I'm sure our
listeners have heard by now, but some surprises, some new faces.
So what was your initial top line reaction to the
All Black squad.

Speaker 4 (01:47):
There's a lot of buzz and anticipation for this wasn't
there because of the new regime. What was Razor and
his assistant's going to bring, what was going to be different?
And to be honest that there's not a lot that
that is different. When you skim off the top layer
of five rookies. There is a high degree of continuity

(02:11):
coming back from last year's World Cup squad and a
core of experience. But we have a new All Blacks
captain that was widely predicted in Scott Barrett's and there
were a couple of big surprises, one in Hurricanes prop Tossi,
who I don't think anyone saw coming. And there is

(02:31):
always one bolter. It's just the way of an all
black squad. They have their time to assess, to sit
back and whether it's Dallas McLeod's this time last year
or Tossy this time around. So he was the big bolter.
And a number of fine line decisions that polarize opinions,

(02:54):
don't they from Hoskins stitut to missing out the hookers
first five fallback. So there's plenty to get stuck into.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah, there is, indeed, First and foremost, let's touch on
the captaincy Scott Barrett, as you mentioned, not a surprise necessarily.
I know the drums beating for Ardie Savia, but this
wasn't a surprise to me that Scott Barrett has been
named captain. He's been Scott Robertson's captain at the Crusaders
for a number of seasons now since twenty twenty, won
a number of titles, so one Scott Robinson can trust.

(03:23):
And I think you know, we've also seen the Artie
Sava and Jordi Barrett have been implemented as vice captains.
But to me, I think the right decision. I think
tat the traits that Scott Robertson's pointed out around game
management and his ability, and there Scott Barrett has that
in spade, so I think that's the reason he's gone

(03:45):
with him. I know there's the Artie Savier camp, but
to be honest, not a huge surprise to me your
reaction to Scott Barrett being captain.

Speaker 4 (03:51):
It's not a surprise Scott Barrett. As you say, They've
has that long standing relationship with Razor, four years, four
titles that they won together. But it is a big
step up for Scott from Super Rugby to the All Blacks.
He's played sixteen nine tests. He's never kept in the
All Blacks before, and he is aware of the enormity

(04:16):
of the role of the all encompassing responsibility, having played
under Sam Cain and lived through the depths of the
Ian Foster Sam Kaine regime and those coaching changes through
the struggles of mid twenty twenty two. He took a
couple of weeks to decide when Razor first asked him,
consulted Richie mccare and Karen Reid's to bounce ideas and

(04:41):
sort of understand the pressures and the expectations that he's
walking into, so it will be interesting to see how
he handles all of that. He's a quiet person. He's
somebody who leads from the front. He's a deep thinker.
He's not spontaneous, but he very much does lead through actions.
For me, I could have gone either way with the

(05:04):
captain c. I can see Ardie severe. He's a wild
player of the year. He's extremely popular in the All
Blacks environment. We had Dalton Popoali come out in support
of him, and I think that shows that there is
a lot of support for him within the All Blacks.
Aaron Smith was another guy spoke on the podcast glowingly
about Ardie's abilities and his emotional intellect. So I think

(05:28):
it is interesting as well that that Razer allowed Scott
to pick his vice captains. Artie not a surprise, but
Jordy twenty seven year old probably more of a surprise.

Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, I think definitely a surprise, like he's done done
it with the Hurricanes, and when you say you can
pick a vice captain, you probably usually go with one,
but he's gone with two and obviously his brother or
he trusts implicitly younger brother, younger brother as well. Yeah,
he must have seen something on there for Boden, that's right. Well,
I think you're a smart move as well, because he's
surrounded himself with people that he trusts. You know, Scott

(06:00):
Barrett probably hasn't played any provincial rugby or anything above
with Ardi, but he's worked alongside him the All Blacks
for a number of seasons down and knows them well.
Jordi obviously knows very very well as well. So I
think that's a good mix of leaders in that team.
It's a new era, you're stamping your fresh mark on
the team. I think all three pretty good selections that

(06:22):
are going to lead this team Forarder. I think it's
really fascinating to see how the workers are dynamic on
the field. Obviously Scott Barrett's going to make all the calls,
but how often he goes to Artie Savilla and asks
for his advice, whether that's an on field decision where
it's more off the field sort of thing that he does.
Same with Jordy. But I think you've stamped there, stamping
mark on the team with that new leadership group.

Speaker 4 (06:44):
I think i'd make the case that Scott Barrett probably
has a harder job to start with than Sam Caine
did because if you look at the makeup of that
leadership group, you've lost Brady Rettallic, Sam White, Locke, Sam Kaine,
right now Aaron Smith. That's a huge amount of leadership
that's left the team. And if you think about the
leaders that Scott will have around him, it's Artie Severe,

(07:05):
Jordi Barrett, Boden, Barrett, Cody Taylor, Patrick Twopolotu. So there
is experience there, but not quite to the same degree.
So that will be a challenge for him to mold
that new leadership group, get what he needs from different people,
hand over different responsibilities at different times. He's also going
to have to work with referees. One big question around

(07:26):
Scott is his discipline. Yeah, two red cards previously. That's
going to be a major focus, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
It is And Scott Robertson was asked about that at
the media conference last night, and I don't know if
he'd say cagey or didn't want to give too much away,
but said that certainly had formed part of the conversations
with Scott Barrett and Scott Barrett as well, saying that
you know, it's part of the ing captains that you
do have to be on the park and I can't
get away with that. And so that's something that he's

(07:51):
going to have to have in the back of his
mind every time he tackles someone. He's got to be
one hundred percent on with his technique and everything like that.
And we've seen those margins are so fine. Now he
says he's got to get Laura and Laura and Laura
and that's what he's got to do to remain on
the park, is the All Blacks captain. That's the challenge
for him, but also for the majority of the team.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
Yeah, and it's about managing your emotions as well, because
Scott I think I think it was this quarter finals,
so the semi final against Argentina, what's that him? Maybe
I'm blacklisting him? Hit the ball down at the ruck
And there was also against the spring Box prior to
the World Cup he got two yellow cards. So it

(08:30):
wasn't just one instance. There are multiple incidents where he
hasn't kept his call in the heat of battle. So
as All Black captain, you've got to lead from the front.
You've got to be on the park as you say,
so that is going to be a big challenge.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah. Sometimes the leadership responsibility sort of makes a man
makes you you know, you go, actually, I'm captain. I've
can have a little bit of responsibility here, not just
one of the troops. So that might well be the
case with him. Let's dig into some of these selections
around the squad, work our way through some of the
new Caps as well. I suppose good place to start
as any as the props and the surprise selection of

(09:05):
Pasili or Tossi out of the Hurricanes and bay of
place number eight until twenty twenty switched to tight head
prop put on about fifteen twenty kgs he says, and lockdown.
We'll hear some of the interviewee bit later on the podcast.
But converted himself into a tight hair prop and has
been a very good player for the Hurricanes this year,
but certainly wouldn't have made many thirty two's around the

(09:28):
rugby clubs or pubs or whatever of New Zealanders they're
putting together their teams over the course of the weekend.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
No a bolt from the blue, wasn't it. And I
guess when you think about this deeply, it's the all
Blacks needed another tight head prop because nipole La Lala
has departed offer doing a fuss. He has the ability
to play both sides to Mighty Williams to a degree
can play both sides, so they have flexibility within their ranks.
But they clearly wanted to bring through another tight head.

(09:58):
Tossi is twenty five years old. He's only been a
tight head prop for four years. He was converted in
SOUTHLM and he did that because he was basically told, look,
there's not too many one hundred and forty kg number
eights running around the games.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
It's quite incredible, isn't it that that story to go right?
The okay need to switch to a different position and
then go from being an NPC footballer in one position
and number eight to converting yourself into a front rower
and playing like that. But a wonderful story and out
of the blue. I guess some players that were in
the mix, the likes of Marcel ridden at Asavia Numia
was in the mix as well for All Black selection

(10:36):
but not picked. And Numia potentially maybe an injury, but
you know, always a tight call in the props.

Speaker 4 (10:44):
Yeah, and I think they've gone with specialists on both
sides of the scrum to a degree and that's why
toss He's been selected. And also I spoke to Jason
Ryan about him and it was pretty classic to hear
Raisor Robinson say that Jason Rohan fell in love with him.
He talked about.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
Married at First Sight, one of the first All Blacks
coach to reference Married at First Sight and media interview.

Speaker 4 (11:06):
Clearly big mathsco but Jason Ryan said that Tossy is
the strongest prop in New Zealand. He said that he
can squat over three hundred kg and that he's got
a massive future and that he will learn a lot
scrummaging off Tyreel Lomax as he has all year. He
gave a big shout out to Jamie McIntosh at the

(11:28):
Hurricanes and the work that he's done to get him
up to speeds. I think it's fair to say at
this point Tossy is not at the level you would
want for a test scrummager and tight hair prop. You know,
the intricacies of propping are foreign to to most of us,
but tight hair prop is one of the most important
positions on the field. It is your anchor. You lock

(11:50):
down the scrum. I'd put it right up there with
the first five, and so getting him up to speed's important.
The All Blacks have Tyrol Lomax and Fletcher Newel, two
genuine world class tight head props, and they're hoping to
mold another one.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
Yeah, and it was interesting Tossi is saying that it
was only sort of last year that he felt like
he was able to scrummage properly. So I think the
phrase Jordi Barrett Hues when I spoke to him was
incredibly high ceiling. So he's got the raw talent. Now
it's time for Jace Ryan to work with them, but
also to Rol Lomax and there's All Black teammates to

(12:24):
work with him and get him to where he needs
to be. In terms of the All Blacks, it was a.

Speaker 4 (12:28):
Couple of things. When you look at the makeup of
those All Black props and Tossy being a former number eights,
they all have their ability to ball play, to have
quick feet at the line, to be mobile, and that's
what you need as well as being great scrummages. Ethan
de Groetz come on a lot in that regard. The
other thing about them is they're all massive units. Yeah,

(12:50):
they are huge humans. Offer toing, I Fuss is one
of the smaller props. You know, let that sink in
from and these are big humans and they will compete
on a size like for light basis with the Box
and the English. So they clearly want size and they
want skill and mobility from their props. And that's Tossy

(13:11):
does fit that mold.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
It does. Indeed, let's continue to move our way up
the team and the hook is selected there now I
think two of them out of three week could have
both picked Tolfer sorry Cody Taylor and I suffer on
mooor the third one George Bell out of the Crusaders,
one of the five new faces in the squad. Of
the un capped players first and foremost, I think fair

(13:33):
to say Samasonic Takeyahoa is fit. George Bell is not there.
The three fit pretty clear. As it happens, they do
need a third player to play hooker in this team,
and with Samosoni Art there was a decision to be
made there for Scott Robertson and Deal Black's coaches selectors.
Ricky Rica Telli form player probably for the Blues as
they closed the season. One of the form players. He's

(13:55):
been very, very good. But George Bell is in there
with an eye to the future. Twenty two years of age,
and Scott Robertson said as much when he was asked
about it. It's an eye to the future. They really
really rate him. I don't think George Bell had a
great Super Rugby season with the Crusaders. Some of his
line out throwing was errant. He's a good ball player,
but I think if you're going on the form call

(14:16):
Ricky Ricottelli deserved to be there. But they've gone with
the long term vision because they've had this spot open
up through Samasoni Dokey I was injury and they've gone, well,
it's a better to give a third spot to a
player that is they're going to be there in the future,
or maybe someone who's a bit older. They've gone with
the future.

Speaker 4 (14:33):
I'm going to read your tweet here from Simon raul
Looni from a Fiji coach is always good for a
hot take. Bell was a great player and open player,
but couldn't hurt an elephant's ass with a handful of eminem's.
Ricky Ricttelli has to be dirty.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, well that's on the throw coach of the All Blacks.
Isn't it Corey Flynn to get him up to speed
and get him there? They're clearly similar to Tossy see him?
Is that the raw product that they can get up
to international caliber? Now you look at the first two tests,
unlikely that Bell or Tossi for that matter, is going
to play against England Fiji maybe where both of them

(15:09):
could potentially debut if they're up to speed by then,
but they're not going to get much game time. And
I guess if you're airing on that side, you go
with the guy that might be there in two or
three years time rather than the guy that you don't
know about and maybe isn't going to crack that top
three in the years to come.

Speaker 4 (15:25):
Yeah, look, I think if you're poking on form and
for the now, it's a non selection, non choice. Rickittelli
has been outstanding for a dominant Blues pack, low center
of gravity, great and the clean out. The Blues lineup
was the best in the comp this year. The Crusaders
was the third worst and George Bell did not have
a good season. So you look at it on that

(15:46):
basis and you say, look, this has been viewed through
red and black tinted glasses, not only with Razor, but
Jason Ryan, who knows George Berll well. From a development
point of view and the age dynamic that you've mentioned,
you can understand bringing George Belle wanting to develop him
for the future and they believe he's a real athlete

(16:09):
and has a lot of potential. But look, I feel
for Rickettelly because on mirror on form he one hundred
percent deserves to be there.

Speaker 3 (16:18):
He does, and that's a tough one for Ricky Rickttelly
not to be in the mix. He was in training squad.
I'm thinking about six seven years ago. He got in
the mix to cover some injuries. That was as close
as he's got and this time doesn't make the thirty two.
Let's continue moving. And this is one of the other surprises,
not so much in personnel, but the lack of personnel

(16:38):
and lock that they've only taken three now. When we
put together our squads last week, we had four locks.
Every squad that I've seen on Sky and various other
picks has had four locks. The all Blacks have gone
with three, which don't think many expected they would do. Yes,
Sama Penni Feina can cover lock. But this is a
huge risk to take only three locks in your squad

(16:59):
of thirty two.

Speaker 4 (16:59):
It's a massive risk, particularly when one of them and
Patrick two Polot who's carrying a knee injury.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
Scott Barret's had a back injury.

Speaker 4 (17:05):
That's right, and Scott said he was fifty fifty to
play Club rugby last weekend declared for the first test.
But yeah, there are injury clouds hanging over your two
of your three established locks. In terms of the balance
of the squads, I always felt that if they went
six props that have to lose a loose forward or
a lock, I thought it might be a loose forward. Yes,

(17:28):
some of Penny Female gives you a degree of flexibility there,
and they have brought in Sam Derry, one of four
injury cover guys for Patrick two Polo two. But it's
a massive risk and it speaks to the thread beer
nature of the depth in New Zealand rugby locks. And
we went through six or seven different candidates and none

(17:51):
of them were really compelling to step into the breach
that's been left by Sam Whitelock and Brody Rettallic and
clearly the All Blacks have felt that way as well,
because they've only gone with three of them. I think
the other aspect of this is Josh Lord will make
his comeback bare He played for the Chiefs this year
with Tartanuki in their preseason. He's the guy that they

(18:11):
will fast track. He's stepped up to the international level.
I think he's the clear fourth choice lock. But for now,
let's say Patrick two Poloto is injured in the first
couple of minutes against England, then you're left with two
established locks. It is a risk, it.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Is a huge risk. I think from the All Blacks,
Sam Dowry is going to be in there is cover
for both of those injured players and may well get
a call up at some point in there. But I
think potentially if they were at home so I weren't
at home, they wouldn't have taken this risk. But the
fact that they can get well Darry's going to be
covering with them in squad, but they can fly in

(18:50):
players pretty quickly into camp allows them to make a
decision that they wouldn't have made and they wouldn't have
probably sleeped at thirty two if they're going abroad anyway,
but made a decision that they can bring in someone
at short notice if required.

Speaker 4 (19:03):
Yeah, I think it's a big It's a flashing red light,
isn't it. If there's one person in New Zealand rugby
that you're concerned about right now, it's lock and selecting
three of them just highlights that even more.

Speaker 5 (19:15):
Yeah, it does.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
And look, there's players on the horizon. As we've mentioned
on this podcast before, Fabian holand eligible late late part
of next year. Jamie Hannah looks like a real up
and comer, but they're not ready yet. And this is
twenty twenty four and at the moment there's three locks
in an All Black squad and that speaks to the
thread being nature of things, isn't it, doesn't it?

Speaker 6 (19:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (19:33):
And it's a big year. The All Blacks play fifteen
tests this year, a lot of them away from home,
and they're going to need more than three locks, So
it's going to be really interesting to see where they
turn and how affected that position is because it is
very attritional and Scott Barrett will play a lot of

(19:53):
rugby as captain, but the other two are going to
need to be rotated, so it's going to be fascinating
to see how that position plays out.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Let's get into the loose forwards. They've selected six of them,
so that was always going to be the balance as
to how many they took in. So I had a
female Jacobson, papala Via and Satiti getting the nod there.
I guess we went through it last week and we're
trying to match, you know, who can cover what position there.
But the one that stands out obviously is Wallace Atiti

(20:24):
being named over Hoskins Stutu sa Titi having a great
finish to the season. I thought it was I thought
it was probably the Chief's best in the final, even
though they didn't get a lot of ball. We'll get
into the final little bit later on. Obviously Superb and
the Hurricanes and they've weighted up and gone we're taking
the promising player in Satiti.

Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yeah. It's fascinating, isn't it? And it's certainly the lightning
rod that sparked debate, discussion around pub laners and social media.
Hoskin Stitutu scored twelve trials for the Blues this year.
He played a lot of minutes, He carried for a
lot of meters. I think he set up another eight tries.

(21:03):
So when he had the ball in his hands. He
was hugely influential for an extremely dominant Blues pack. Hoss
Wallace Tatiti came on a little bit later in the year,
but there's one performance from him that earned him selection
and that's the semi final against the Hurricanes, and Jason
Rhand said that to me as plain and simple, that

(21:26):
performance in a semi final turned heads, and it turned
everyone's heads and it turned the All Blacks heads as well.
Now you've got a feel for Hoskins to Tuto because
he's got to sit back and think I couldn't be
doing anything more right now. He was cast asides in
late twenty twenty two, not only from the All Blacks,
but the All Blacks fifteen came into this year with

(21:47):
a massive chip on her shoulder and played like it.
I think there was a couple of talent comments in
the announcement last night. It was on both sides of
the ball that the All Blacks want their loose forwards
to make an impact and speaking to it a couple
of the coaches off the record last night. Another aspect
is what you do away from the ball and this

(22:08):
is something that the Queensland Maroons. Billy Slater values very
highly and it's something that Raised Robinson values very highly.
And I think it's been a feedback for Hoskins throughout
the year because Jason Ryan's been into the Blues and
with vern and that's one aspect of his game where
the All Blacks feel like when he's on the ball,
he's on and otherwise he can drift and not be involved.

(22:32):
So hugely polarizing selection, isn't it. Do you think they
got it right?

Speaker 3 (22:39):
I probably don't. I think I would have kept Satisi
just a nice a little bit more and allowed him
to have a bit more of an NBC campaign and
picked Satusu and rewarded him for the season because he
has played well. And trust yourself to bring those standards
up to where they need to be in All Blacks camp.
And we've seen, you know, with Tossy and George Bell

(23:01):
that those players aren't the finished product. Well has Intituta. Yes,
he's been the All Blacks before, but if you want
to see that from him, surely he's shown you on
that side of the ball where he can do a
ball in hand. We'll get him up to speed with
what he's doing off the ball and what he's doing
in those moments that he maybe is a little bit idle.
That's what I think. You've got to back yourself as
coaches to get the best out of him. I don't

(23:21):
mind what the tea being slick at all. I think
he's an immense prospect for the All Blacks over the
coming years. But I think if you're Hoskins a Tutu,
you're probably feeling a bit hard done by and looking
at perhaps on a social media posts, he does feel
a little bit hard done by by missing out. But
there's two ways this can go with Hostintituji and similar
to last year, we saw him absolutely rise back with

(23:44):
the Blues this year and have have a great season
and put himself back in the conversation. It can now
go one of two ways. He can continue to work
at it and fix those things that the All Blacks
want to see and get there in time for the
Rugby Championship if there is time or injuries or whatever
all the end of year tour, or he can drop
his lip and he can go back of this. I'm
going to go map. Is Solf eligible for Fiji in
twelve months or eighteen months time, whatever it is, or England,

(24:06):
which is also eligible for So that's in Hoskins court.
It's going to be interesting to see what happens. But
you know, I think there's an element there that you've
got to back yourself as all about coaches to bring
him up to standard.

Speaker 4 (24:20):
Yeah, Look, if I was Hoskins, I would be looking
off shore right now. I think there's been a pretty
clear directive that he's not in favor here, and you know,
Ford's coach Jason Ryan was there last year and he's
going to be there for the next four years. Clearly
others are preferred, and it's not just who's in this

(24:41):
All Black squad as well. There's depth elsewhere with Bradon
Yosse and Peter Luckey, who is actually in the All
Black squad is an emerging player, but the depth at
Loose Ford, in the loose forwards is incredible. So I
think if I were him, I would be looking off
shore because it is that opinion of him going to change.

(25:02):
What more can he do? Really? I think from an
international eligibility perspective, it's five years, isn't it three now?

Speaker 3 (25:10):
Three now with so into twenty twenty two is his
last All Blacks tests so he could be eligible into
twenty twenty five with the he's got English, links, got
Fiji and links could play there into twenty twenty five.

Speaker 4 (25:21):
Yeah, so target the next World Cup, go and earn
some yen. You know, I could completely understand that rationale
or he digs in for a year, tries to change
an opinion. But I'm gonna throw something else at you here.
So Wallac the TT Hoskins, the two two head to
head raises like that's our most difficult selection. I know

(25:42):
that you're not a massive fan of Luke Jacobson, and
you know, would you have selected him and Hoskins two.
There's there's so many different ways you can skin the
balance of this loose forward mix. When you talk about versatility,
which is another thing that hurt Hoskins because Wallac TT
is a guy that they view can play all three positions.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
Well to start with that, I think what we've seeing
there is that clearly Artie is still going to play
eight for the your black correct there. There's not going
to be no change there. There's been a bit of
chatbat movie I've inside from what the squad they've selected.
He's going to play eight and the wall of tit
is the backup number eight. So that's where the squeeze
came on Hoskins. Is that do they go with a
player that's probably not going to get much game time

(26:24):
but is a long term project for the All Blacks
they've added up Hoskins or Walla Wallace wins out in
that regard. Luke Jacobson I think has had a number
of cracks at Test level, but I would struggle to
think of a Test match where he's absolutely gone. This
is a Test match where I've staked my claim from
All Blacks Jersey. I'm not going to let it go.

(26:45):
He's been around for a number of seasons now. Yes
he's had a few injuries here and there which have
obviously set him back, but he's been around the All
Blacks camp for a number of years now and I
don't think has put his hand up completely to go
I'm here. But what he does do is cover a
number of positions and that's fairly Walks, So too does
Ethan Blackat and the All Blacks Max.

Speaker 4 (27:03):
We know that who you could argue is fortunate to
be there. Bais of the this.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
Year and look he could have been squeezed out and
as I was putting together a squad yesterday with my
old man, made a few tweaks to what we selected
last week, and I actually squeezed Ethan out A sorry, yeah,
squed Ethan out of the mix because I thought he
hasn't played a lot of rug be the best thing
is to get some rugby under his belt. But he's
a known quantity to these all Black selectors. So I
think the heat's really on Ethan Blackaded and Luke Jacobson

(27:30):
in the loose Ford trio when we go forward here,
because Ethan's had his injury issues and Luke, to be fair,
I don't think has taken his chances in the All Blacks.
So there's clearly they've seen plenty from them. They liked
those players. But I still think there's a bit of
work the too need to do at test level.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
We'll have another pod before the first Test, but right
now I believe the all black starting loose Ford trio
for England will be Ardi at eight, Dalton at seven
and Ethan Blackheader at six.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
I don't disagree. I think it will be.

Speaker 4 (28:00):
Summer Penny Female at sex is the only.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
Possible option, but I think they may want to use
him off the bench and have double lock cover patent,
or have the ability to change things up mid test.
So I think the way things are selected at the moment,
I think female off the bench alongside perhaps two per
I would be the likely mixed for that first test.

Speaker 4 (28:20):
And that speaks to how highly the All Blacks regard
ethan blacket. It doesn't it because he has played bargaroll
this year.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
He has played buggarull. He is indeed, all right, let's
get into the halfbacks.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
T J.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
Pettinara, Cortez Ratima included in Finlay Christie the three that
they've named No surprises really there. That was essentially what
everyone thought was going to happen, and indeed they have.
You'll read on the half backs. You know, a great
story for TJ. Pedanara, been through the wars the last
couple of years, wasn't selected in twenty twenty two until
right at the very end, then goes and does his

(28:51):
achilles at ticking him misses all of twenty twenty three,
can't get back in time for the World Cup. We'll
put himself in the frame for the World Cup. But
you know that's a redemption story for TJ.

Speaker 4 (29:00):
It is and he spoke with Kimberly downs on Sky
about the fact that because it wasn't just one chilly surgio,
it was two and he's out of the game for
eighteen months, and he talked about the fact that he
may not play rugby again, that he had that thought
when he had a second rchilly surgery things went progressing.
So what a comeback story. And it does speak to

(29:20):
fate to a degree because cam Royguard isn't injured for
the until you know, the back end of this year.
Then TJ doesn't have the whole season starting for the Hurricanes,
and maybe he doesn't make the All Blacks because he
doesn't have that time to impress. So there's a bit
of divine intervention to a degree. But a great story
for a great servant, a great human. But no surprises.

(29:46):
Not Hotham was the guy that has been knocking on
the door. I think he's got a big future, but
he's still a young guy and his time will come.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
Some bizarre things as well that not Hotham not in
the multi All Black squad that'll be out by the
time this podcast lands. Not sure if he's injured, but
he's missed the cut. There with Sam Knock and Titoy
making the cut there. Sure if he's unavailable for personal
reasons or whatever it is. But yeah, it was quite
odd not see No Hopme's name listed in that multiple
Black squad.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
Yeah, very strange. Maybe they're holding them back for the
All Blacks fifteen later in the air.

Speaker 3 (30:19):
Could be, could be let's get into the tens. No surprises,
he actually no, there is a slight surprise. Boden Barrett
and dam mckinzi are listed as the first five eights.
We'll get to sehim. Peter Feeder shortly, but he is
not listed in the first five eights. He's played fullback
for the Blues majority of the season, but just a
little week. Interesting thing in terms of how the All
Blacks have laid out the squad is that Petter Fetter

(30:39):
is listed in the outside backs rather than the first fives.

Speaker 4 (30:43):
Well, let me put this to you. Do you have
to be a first five to play fullback for the
All Blacks?

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Now?

Speaker 3 (30:48):
It does seem like a prerequisite. When Richid Wong is gone,
he's the last ten specialist ten. It seems like it
is a pre requisite the way they play, or maybe
it's just the way that New Zealand teams like to play. Yeah,
I'm still a fan of having an out and out
specialist ten if he possibly can.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
Yeah, it works the other way as well. Do you
have to be a ten to play fifteen? Look, the
positions are similar in terms of what the All Blacks
want from them. They want dual playmakers. They want the
ability to read the game, to chime into the line,
to alleviate the decision making on one person, to be
that backdoor receiver, and to plug the corners, and all

(31:33):
those sorts of elements are shared between fullback and first five.
But I really wanted Ruben Love in the squad and
he's a guy that lit up super rugby. He's one
of the most exciting prospects since Christian Cullen from a
pure attacking point of view, and I would love to
see his skill set be given a chance to shine

(31:55):
on the Test scene. So I'm disappointed that he's not there.
Stephen Peter Efecta didn't play a lot of rugby this year,
and when he did it it was almost exclusively from fullback.
His versatility as an upside if you select Ruben Love.
He can't play ten, but.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
Hasn't for a long time.

Speaker 4 (32:13):
He hasn't established himself at ten at super rugby level,
so clearly that working in Steven's favor. I think also
his relationship with Leo McDonald knows him well, so that's
a tick. But I guess first five is a position
where there's not a lot of depth. Harry Plumbers, a

(32:35):
guy that's been there, was a bit of a clamor
for him after the way he led the Blues this year.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
It was interesting here Scott Hansen speak with Jason Pye
and he said it was asked whether Harry Plumber is
in the mix, and Scott Hansen said one hundred percent
deserved to be in the mix because he was playing
some superb rugby. But just the challenge of him now
is to keep backing it up at NPC level and
I think he's family now in the All Blacks radar.
Whether that converts into a call up is you know,

(33:00):
anyone's scarce, but he's certainly in the conversation for the
All Blacks.

Speaker 4 (33:03):
Well, if you're going down the rungs, he has to
be done. He outplayed Brett Cameron when it met and
it's look, I think there's an argument about playing behind
an extremely dominant full pack, which helps you, but you've
still got to make those decisions and execute them. And
Harry's goalkicking as well was superb, so ticked a lot
of boxes. Look, I do rate Stephen Peterfetter. He's a

(33:24):
classy operator, very skillful, great at the line, great at
creating for others and hasn't really had a crack for
the All Blacks, so he is deserving a being there.
But if it was up to me, I would have
selected Reuben Love because he's a point of difference and
he's an out and out genuine fullback.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
Let's get back into the outside backs before we get
into the midfielder is then caterber Clark in morning at
our Stephen Peter Felder severy re smart Tala on the
basis of that, I mean, I know that also is
outside backs. You would think Boden Barrett's going to start
at fullback in the first Test, even though he's not
listed as being an outside back.

Speaker 4 (33:56):
But he's bolted on ye I would argue they're not
going to start Stephen Petter Perefetter at fullback and there's
no other options. Narawa has played fullback, but probably not
what they're looking for at test level exactly. So yeah,
you could pretty much name the All Blacks back line now.

(34:18):
I think the wings are contestable, but midfields, I think
t J. Petinara starts at half back, Damian McKenzie's at ten,
Jeordie Barrett, Riquewani and Boden Barrack at fullback. So who's
just starting wings?

Speaker 3 (34:33):
Well, I think Severa Reese on the left wing and
Mark Tilera on the right.

Speaker 4 (34:37):
For me, yeah, not too many. I'm not totally sold
about sever Reese, but I think Mark t Lea for sure.
The way that England play high ball is going to
be important, so maybe that brings Caleb Clark into the equation.
The question with him is he's carrying a rib injury,
same of off towing a fussy so they have broaden

(35:01):
cover there. But look, sever Reese was the Crusader's best
performer in a dire season for the part, and it's
really hard to play well in a poor team, so
he thoroughly deserves to be in the squad and he's
certainly pushing for starting claims.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
Yeah, and big moment for Southland as well, getting a
second to All Black. I spoke with the Southland radio
station this morning and they were absolutely delighted to have
too All Blacks in the mix. I guess the other
selection the player that's missed out there. I don't think
we had him in. But Shawn Stevenson, a player that's
performed well for the Chiefs, I do think obviously didn't
play the semi final against the Hurricanes. Maybe if he

(35:38):
played there might have been able to stake his claim
a bit more. Nothing went the way of the Chiefs
on Saturday night really, especially you know in terms of
back's getting quality ball. He couldn't do a life and
he had a knock on at one point or a
couple of eras, so he didn't get a chance to
stake his claim. But it feels like this is probably
destined to be Sean Stevenson's lot. Might get another test

(35:59):
here or there for injury cover, but when Ruben Love
has been picked ahead of him in terms of that
injury cover, it's looking a long way back now for
Shawn Stevenson making another All Blacks appearance.

Speaker 4 (36:08):
It is in the Chiefs back three in general had
a really poor knight in that Super Abiy final. Stevenson.
You mentioned that the drop high ball which wasn't a
great kick from Finn Labor. That was as close to
Test match for the as you'll get. It was raining
as well, and you've got to be better than that
early doors he looked nervous as well. Throw a long
ball out on the fall, it's any Nina sturo kicked

(36:32):
another ball out on the fall Amoni Nawa even letter
kickoff go over his head and bounce out. So those
sort of instances in a final. When we talk about Hoskins,
Wallace a Titi performing in a semi, when you don't
perform in a final, it's the same sort of dynamics.
So I think that hurts Stevenson's chances. And you're right
that room in Love has moved ahead of him in

(36:54):
the picking order, so he needs some consistent footy as well.
He didn't play a lot this year in and out
of the Chiefs team, so that didn't help no.

Speaker 3 (37:03):
And I guess he's always been the NRAL question around
Shawn Stevenson. That comes again, I don't know. I know
Wayne Bennett tried to get him at the Dolphins wayn
Bennett's now gone to going to South Sydney next year.
I'm not sure if Shawn Simonson is contracted as yet
for next year, trying to remember whether he resigned or not.
But regardless, this is an interesting decision coming up for

(37:23):
someone like Shawn Steminson.

Speaker 4 (37:24):
It is and it will be for all the players
on the friends. If it's a bit different, you're and
Noah Hopham shoes and yeah, you're twenty years old. But
if you've been around, you've been knocking on the door,
You've played a couple of tests and then been pushed
back to the fringe. Others move ahead a year. Yeah,
you contemplate your future and potentially look to other options
to cash.

Speaker 6 (37:44):
In you do.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
Let's get into the midfield as our final selection. Jordi
Barrett the new vice captain alongside Rico, Joanni Anton that
at Brown and Billy Proctor. I mean this was picked
weeks ago. No change there, but great congratulations to Billy Proctor.
Great selection. He's been a great, great season for the
Hurricanes and well deserving of his chance. He's been a
player that's been on the radar of the All Blacks
and higher honors for a number of seasons.

Speaker 6 (38:07):
Now.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
I think he signed a five year contract just out
of high school with the Hurricanes now at twenty five
getting into his body, knows the skills, knows how to
read a game. Very very good player and well deserving
the chance. But as I say, no surprises in that
midfield pick No.

Speaker 4 (38:23):
There's a few dynamics at play here though. Billy thoroughly
deserving of his chance, not just for his form this year,
but he has been knocking on the door since last year.
He's really starting to put some pressure on en Rique Oani.
Another question I would put to you is there's three
centers in that mix, East Antonlina Brown has the ability
to play both, but are the All Black short of

(38:44):
another physically dominant twelve.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
I think they are, to be honest, and that probably
speaks to a lack of options, but also in fact
they only selected thirty two and perhaps couldn't go a
little bit wider. I mean, aj Lamb had superb back
into the season. I was doubtful that he was a
second five at all, but was probably arguably the player
of the semi final and maybe even the final for
the Blues. So he's a player that could well have
been in the mix for them. David Harveli missing out

(39:10):
and there is injury cover. He's played twelve for the
Crusaders for a number of seasons, played there for the
All Blacks as well, So I think they are missing
out on the second five. I mean someone like Harry
Plummett could potentially play second five. Maybe not that physically
dominant player you're looking for, but that's an area potentially
a weakness. If Jordi Barrett goes down, you're looking at
a midfield of Anton Lenett Brown, Enrico Yuani or Anton

(39:33):
Lenet Brown and Billy Proctor. So I think options are
a little bit thin at second five there.

Speaker 4 (39:38):
Yeah, I think that's my point that Jordi. If you
lose Jordian, there's no light for light replacement in terms
of what he brings, his ability to bend and break
the line, be physically combative on defense. There is no
other replacement like that in his Zella rugby out there,
So they've sweating on his fitness all year.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
They will be and I don't know who else is
on the Robin aj Lamb. Maybe they will be the
next option Bryce Heen the Blues. But there's a guy
Allis McLeod, maybe a.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
Guy that lever More could potentially do that job, but
was extremely underwhelming for the Crusaders and looks a long
way off Test football, but that's the sort of physical composition.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
McLoud was sort of mentioned as maybe the Jordy Barrett
prototype out of the Crusaders, and maybe that's someone they
go back to, but again he didn't have a year
of consistency for the Crusaders in terms of selection.

Speaker 4 (40:30):
We were his pick, so it's not a position of
great depth.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
No, it's not. Any final thoughts on the All Blacks
squad of thirty two.

Speaker 4 (40:37):
I think, well, I don't know, were you expecting a
revolution a Razor River right that I.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
Wasn't, but I think some people were, and I've seen
some comments online around well this is similar to what
Ian fosterpec last year, and it is to an extent,
but no one's really played their way out of selection
that are still available for the All Blacks. You think
a lot of those players they've stood up again in
Super Rugby, they've been there or thereabouts. I think maybe, yeah,
people were expecting that he was going to throw out

(41:05):
and pick a whole up, but you guys, but in
a squad of thirty two, you don't have room for that.
Maybe when they get to the Rugby Championship and they're
looking at thirty six there there's some new faces that
may come in there end of your two. We don't
have a number on how many they're likely to take,
but there's a five test program abroad starts in Japan, England, Ireland,
France Big three weeks in a row, the Italy to

(41:27):
finished the season in Churin. That to me looks like
where you might see some of these players, especially the
night of twenty twenty seven, start to come at a
wee bit more if they take an expanded squad.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
I think the other point to this is this is
Ray's's first squad. They have ten days to prepare the
All Blacks for a test against England, who are coming
off a head out against Japan. Traditionally this is the
All Blacks start rusty. You've got a new coaching team,
a whole new sort of vision culture. There's a danger

(42:00):
that you're going to overwhelm them in a short space
of time. So you're not going to throw the baby
out with the bath water. As you mentioned, there's still
a number of established, core experience All Blacks there, so
I wasn't expecting a massive revolution either. So I think
on the balance of things you can argue different selections.
But we are talking fringe largely as well, because when

(42:23):
you look at hooker Samasoni Takyaho is going to come back.
When you look at half back Cam Rougart is going
to come back, When you look at fallback Will Jordan
is going to come back. So there's all those other
dynamics at play as well. But it is going to
be fascinating to see how the All Blacks, how Razor
goes about getting this team ready for a first Test

(42:44):
against England, because that is a bloody tough start.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
It is time is ticking. They're only going to gather
on the Wednesday of this week in Wellington. They play
a test the following Saturday in Duneed and Wright. So
before we leave the All Blacks discussion, let's hear your
chat with Ford's coach Jason.

Speaker 7 (42:59):
Rans It called it the toughest call. What the balance,
I guess, yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (43:07):
Mean tracking both of them.

Speaker 8 (43:09):
Obviously, it's really important that we have both sides of
the ball, if for our loose forwards, and that's something
that Ray really wanted from was loosers, you know, thankfully,
And that's different than the selecting model that is this
year where we all get a little say in specious areas,
which is quite unique on its own. I think probably

(43:29):
what timpt was how dominant he was in a semi final.
To turn up and just put on an absolute clinic
like that, it was pretty impressive. Scotty Hanson and coaching
in the Twins. He's been around for a while, just
similar around the back background and did a little bit
of homework with Liam Missing, had a good chat to
Hunger about him. He sort of mentored him through and

(43:52):
just ask him a couple of questions on character.

Speaker 5 (43:54):
And that sort of thing. So and he tucks and
tipped all the boxes and we believe we could get
him to test him were really really cockee side.

Speaker 7 (44:03):
We'll glad you see that position.

Speaker 4 (44:05):
Generally, Sad was the year last year as an eights
because they've got a lot of flexibility in those of
those thoughts. Even both had a look Jacobson, some female
we would be your next choice number eight.

Speaker 8 (44:20):
Yes, I'm going to be a lot bit early to
call the next next choices. We've got a artists be
so will we know that? And he's you know he
can also play seven too, and Wallace gives us that
as well. You know he can he can actually play
the whole three as well, So there's a you know,
we'll get a good look at them training and I've
got a fair idea of what our top testing we

(44:42):
believe for the first game will be.

Speaker 5 (44:44):
We need to be there where we're at.

Speaker 8 (44:45):
So I just think that with Wallace Nester's durability around
both sides of the ball, and also there's being able
to play a couple of positions is quite important farming.

Speaker 4 (44:56):
But how does it work with this solection. Obviously cool
guys that are in, but ye're cool guys that are
in the fringe. Obviously again Hoskins or the hopeful you
get them done general type thing.

Speaker 5 (45:06):
Yep.

Speaker 8 (45:07):
So Raises talked to whole Skins, He's given him their
heads up, and all the guys ever really close, and
I think he's touched on who's coming in as a
little bit of Andrew cover te conversations with.

Speaker 5 (45:17):
Fostering a year as well with Blues and talked to
vernon that constant.

Speaker 8 (45:22):
I think that's a good bit of a point of
difference that I think all the coaches got around the
super clubs this year too.

Speaker 5 (45:26):
That they're in there all the time and that's where
you sort of do your homework and in.

Speaker 7 (45:30):
The commerce.

Speaker 6 (45:33):
And toss.

Speaker 4 (45:37):
He came on late in the year, didn't head to
himself when the Tyrell got in Judies for a lot
of minutes. He think he's had a big factory three
of the same starting not just god enough to be.

Speaker 5 (45:48):
Sort of it wasn't it wasn't. He's been simone away
in the background for Roland.

Speaker 8 (45:51):
Should's he's the strongest prop of the country thinking squad
over friend of Killo.

Speaker 5 (45:56):
He's amazing and he's young, but.

Speaker 8 (45:59):
He's he's in a position that's the most demanding position
in the rugby field and tight hair prop but well
back herself to get him Potesta with you know pretty quickly,
and we'll need to and I've got no doubt that
we can.

Speaker 5 (46:12):
And I think it's really.

Speaker 8 (46:17):
I'll probably like to play a tribute to Jamie McIntosh
what was done a great job with with Pussy and
Lowie and that's you know in the Suffo.

Speaker 5 (46:27):
So I think that you know where he's got into
it at the moment.

Speaker 8 (46:29):
The conversations that I've had with with what during the
year constantly has been really good and he's played back
part and now we've we've.

Speaker 5 (46:36):
Got to get him to the next level down and
all black and he's at a great age. You know,
he could disguise on them off for the young color.

Speaker 4 (46:43):
Obviously your tight heads. Yeah, Yan creas scrumbling and you
know he called you just come first. But as a
former number eight, I think he only switched four years
ago in Southland to those skills, that skill set something
that you like as well.

Speaker 5 (46:58):
Yeah, you've got to have a scrum first.

Speaker 8 (46:59):
And he's there and you know the test level was
a little bit different and it's up quite a bit more.

Speaker 5 (47:04):
But his agility around the park has Paul carry.

Speaker 8 (47:08):
High, especially that twenty two attack stuff and his work
around them all both sides of the ball.

Speaker 5 (47:13):
He's right on. So yeah, it's it's exciting with the
three tidies, we've got to the field.

Speaker 7 (47:20):
What about agis just the style of plague?

Speaker 4 (47:22):
How how much you said evolving from from last year,
were still caring for a number of guys that were
in that squad.

Speaker 7 (47:31):
How how's this group going to play it without giving
too much?

Speaker 5 (47:34):
We want to have a crack.

Speaker 8 (47:37):
We were you know, we're being challenged as coaches to
make sure that we're having a real dug in our
own areas. And the one thing, one of the many
things I losed learned in the test arena is you've
got to have your four pack even more so, you know,
really leading and that sets up other parts of your
game really. But you know, under the roof, I want

(47:59):
to put on a good show and I've got no
different you know, I'm sure England are no different than
how they want to play a tough side.

Speaker 7 (48:07):
What made him in a general gone up a few
notches in the Six Nations.

Speaker 5 (48:13):
Yeah, yeah, they have been. I think they're in a
think they're in a good spot.

Speaker 8 (48:17):
They're Yeah, they've heard it because you know that game
against Island in the last game in the Six Nations
from They're upstanding. Saw a lot of that game and
done our homework on them as they will be on us.
And I think they're here in the country in a
few days. So we're looking forward to the series. Great
to come straight out of the blocks into England.

Speaker 5 (48:34):
I know we're rectally quick.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
It's some interesting thoughts there from Jace. Ryan and I
caught up with the new cap in the front row
the un cap player in the front row PASSAI or TOSSI, congratulations,
how did you find out?

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Ray?

Speaker 3 (48:47):
Ray called me this morning?

Speaker 6 (48:50):
Oh teacher.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
The story.

Speaker 6 (48:51):
I was just trotting upstairs because it's just waking up,
and I was trotting upstairs and normally I'll put a
movie on just to mothered them out, and chucked on
a movie and normal normally they're they're all right, but
one decided to throw a tantrum. So I was holding
him my mom and a phone call came through and
it was a random number. Normally I'm not one to
answer them because you know, like I'm not one to answer.
I'll just let it ring. But on on Friday, I

(49:14):
remember mosst and Ray saying that, like, you'll get a
phone call farm from either one of us to let
you know if you're in the team. So all weekend
I was I was real anxious about getting their phone
call or not. And then when I came through the
random umber, I was like, I have to pick it up,
you know, like you never know who it is. Yeah,
and then I picked it up. I picked it up
and it was m Ray and he said he made
the team. And you know, I was just overwhelmed and

(49:35):
just you know, feel with joy, you know, like especially
when it's something that you've been that you that you
work towards throughout the season and you know, now now
I'm here, and you know, all I can do now
is just learn and and try to be a better
Raguy player and be able to earn that jersey.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
Yeah, did the kids finish the movie or did you?
Did you celebrate with him or how did that plan?

Speaker 6 (49:54):
Actually, I actually don't remember because as soon as as
soon as you told me that I made the team.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
Like everything was just out the winters.

Speaker 6 (49:59):
I just wanted to celebrate with my family, you know,
So went downstairs, wake up moms. He brought her up
and I was hugging the kids, hugging her, and I
was saying like, you know, we're here now, you know,
but hard work starts now, you know, Like, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
What kind of road has it been to be in
this all black Tuesday? You take us through your rugby Jouney. Oh,
it's been pretty rocky, you know. Like I started at
eight first.

Speaker 6 (50:17):
I was eight when I when I moved down to Southland,
and I think it was I was down there for
four years. I was playing at number eight, and then
I think my last year there in twenty twenty, we
had lockdown and I packed on like fifteen to twenty gigs. Yeah,
and but it was I could have easily switched the
prop way before, but it was just getting my ego
and check telling myself that, you know, like no number
is jumping on line out a one hundred and forty

(50:38):
clicks or running around and being able to.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
Lasted that weight. So I would have said the easiest, but.

Speaker 6 (50:44):
It was I just had to switch, you know, like,
you know, like I had a big gut on me,
you know, like and so once I once I made that,
that switched the number to number three, it's I hit,
you know, like it was. It was a it was
a long road learning it, but big thanks I got
big thanks to Whopper, Whopper taking taking time and you know,

(51:07):
helping me perfect my craft. You know, obviously I'm not
the perfect scrummager, but I feel like I've got way.
I've learned heaps from him, and I've saw what heaps
heaps way to go and off Lowey as well, try
lone Max, because in my eyes, he's he's probably the
best tight hit in the world at the moment. And
learning firsthand off of mare trainings and and all. That's
been pretty cool.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
What's it been like being being a super rugby player?
I mean, you scored the winner against the Reds earlier
in the season. Do you feel like you've grown over
the last week while just sort of as a player
and confidence everything like that.

Speaker 6 (51:36):
Yeah, I feel like that's what it was.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
Confidence.

Speaker 6 (51:39):
You know, Like the last couple of years, I just
felt like I didn't get much game time, you know,
like and like we had we had great TI hits,
we had Tarau and we had Owie as well, so
understandably that. But when my opportunity came this year, I
just had to I had to take it of two hands,
you know what I mean, Like, yeah, I was just
I don't know, I wouldn't old Sales. I was pretty

(51:59):
lucky to be able to get an opportunity to be
able to jam. And you know, obviously with I wouldn't
say it helped nothing towards Lowe, but when he got
injured and I was starting those games, I felt like
it helped me grow my confidence as well in starting
because I've never I've never started for the Canes or
or there so I was always coming off the bench.
So once I was once I was comfortable and startying,

(52:20):
you know, like being able to start and come off the.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
Bench and and just try and play good, you know.

Speaker 6 (52:24):
So it was good.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
Yeah, then we'll do us for our All Blacks chat.
We'll take a quick break, come back and talk the
Super Rugby Final after this. So on Rugby Direct.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Every try, don't.

Speaker 3 (52:40):
Try and sixty six every tackle tackle get up again.

Speaker 4 (52:47):
Before time.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
It's Rugby Direct powered Buddies Talks to Me.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
Welcome back into Rugby Direct, powered by Habit Health. Second
half of our podcast. Now let's talk the Super Rugby Final.
We're gonna do things a little differently than we do
in the back half of our podcast usually we'll dig
into the Super Rugby Final. The Blues winning comfortably forty
one ten for a tipping combine. I think we put
a twenty five dollars point on the points on the

(53:11):
line when it and so that's had another twenty five
points for advantage. So I thought, you bet you fifty
in the end. But it was a comprehensive win by
the Blues. Not much you can say about the Chiefs.
Other than the fact that they were in it for
the first four or five minutes and then went in
it for the remaining seventy five or at least most
of them. That was a very, very good finals performance
from the Blues.

Speaker 4 (53:31):
It was I guess you could say from a contest
point of view, it was a flop yep. And I
really felt for the hordes of Chiefs fans. Matt Cooper
was suggesting there was going to be twenty thousand Chiefs
fans and walking around pre match when the rain was
falling the concourse it was packed with Chiefs fans. I
know they had a Kingsland bar, a supporter's bar there

(53:54):
that Sam Caine was at. And look, they came in
their droves and they sat through the rain and witnessed
a very underwhelming performance and a lot of credit to
that has to go for the Blues. There's the weight
of expectation would be massive, the pressure twenty one years
without a title. There are people in Eden Park that

(54:16):
wouldn't have witnessed a title in their lifetime. You know,
it's been such a long time. But that was so
clinical from the Blues and everything they did. They never
really look threatened. They were up I think twenty points
to three. The Chiefs didn't score any points for eighteen minutes.
They stuck to their blueprint all year. Patrick Tuopolotu was

(54:37):
huge coming back five weeks early from a nee ligament injury.
And what can you say about Verne Cotter? He has
gone where so many Blues coaches haven't you think about
the Blues. You compare that performance to the Blues performance
and the final two years ago against the Crusaders, Yes,
different opposition. You compare that performance to their semi final

(55:01):
flop in christ Church last year and just the mentality
that the difference in the way they turned up and
the way they executed. A lot of that credit has
to go to Verne.

Speaker 3 (55:12):
Oh, it's got so And speaking to Offatonga Fasi last week,
he said that it's probably the simplest game plan that
he's had at the Blues. But simple work sometimes, and
it's worked for the Blues this season. It's a very
not necessarily spring box style I've sent compared to them,
but it's just, you know, it's just using the Fords
and the way that they want. They get themselves into position,
then they just bang, bang bang. The line and trust

(55:33):
that they're going to break it eventually. There's a lot
of trust in that game plan that they're built up.
And when was the last time the Blues scored a
try from forty out fifty meters out? Just simply hasn't
happened in recent time. Maybe some of the games against
Australian position they might have squnceded long ranges. But they
know their blueprint. It's another matter stopping it and they've
used it as as a weapon this year off of Tonga.

(55:57):
Fassi's playing some of the best rugby in his career.
The Keta Yuani in his final season with the Blues
has stepped up immensely, and Houstin's a two too. We
saw the best come out of him this season as well.
And you add An Patrick twy but lot too missed
a lot of the season with the daw injury. Comes
back and you know this is the semi final with
the knee injury, comes back and plays the final in

(56:18):
an inspirational man of the match performance. As I say,
sometimes simple works and that's what the Blues have drawn
their blueprint around this season. One thing I think the
Chiefs knew exactly how the Blues are going to play.
It's one thing knowing about it, it's another thing stopping it.
And the Chiefs just didn't have any answer in the night.

Speaker 4 (56:33):
Well, everyone knew how the Blues were going to play.
That They started that blueprint in the preseason when they
went to Japan and carried it into their opening match
against the Fijian dru In funga Ay and played that
way through the whole year. They didn't deviate from the script.
They actually used the ball more in that final, I
felt than at other times and did it really well.

(56:55):
Caleb Clark made various breaks a hat trick in the final.
He probably needs some new spriggs because he's always fallen over,
but what a moment for him has In nineteen ninety six,
I think it was Ronnie Clark, his father scored a
try when the Blues won the title. And here he
is twenty eight years on, scoring a hat trick and
winning a title. So there are some great stories when

(57:15):
you look at a kid to Iwani as you mentioned
Vooon coming in in his first year and it is
nice for Auckland as a region to get that monkey
off their back and it is going to be fascinating
to see whether others can rise to the challenge. I
don't think the Blues will deviate much from that blueprint.
Next year. Can the Hurricanes, Crusaders, Chiefs come again and

(57:40):
challenge them? Maybe the Reds from Australia. Looking at the Chiefs,
they very much did feel and looked like they played
their final the previous week against the Hurricanes and Wellington.
I think it speaks to rugby and general tournament rugby
about how hard it is to get up three weeks
in a row. They smashed the Reds, they were a

(58:01):
lot better than the Hurricanes and Wellington, and then they
were miles off against the Blues. And they've now lost
two finals in a row three in the past four years.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
They lost the Super Rugby alter had Off final in
two each and won to the Crusaders as well.

Speaker 4 (58:14):
So in some respects they are where the Blues were
prior to UN's arrival. So Clayton McMillon has to find
that missing ingredient to get them over the line in
a final. Can he do it?

Speaker 2 (58:25):
Well?

Speaker 3 (58:26):
The jury's out on that, isn't it. I thought the
final because I still thought the Blues wuld win, But
I thought the final be closed, and I felt like
the Chiefs had learned some of the lessons of last year,
where they were the best team in the regular season
then ran out of puff at the end, and it
felt like they just peaked at the right time, potentially
perhaps the form team of Super Rugby going against the
most consistent team this year in Super Rugby. But as

(58:48):
it happened all the night, they just didn't have anything.
They didn't seem to have that finals mentality. The Blues
forwards pack out muscled the Chiefs. I thought it wasn't
really much of a contest up front, you know, whilst
it was a standout for the Chiefs again, but other
than that, you try and think of standout performances from
the Chiefs and there really weren't many. Damian McKenzie didn't
have great border work with We've touched on Sean Stevenson

(59:10):
in the first half of podcast. The back three didn't
have a lot calling the game. I mean barely called
Antonina Brown's name in commentary, didn't. They just didn't have
the ball and the Blues just spallowed it up and
knew their game plan and got their way to the
finish line. And that was as good a Final as
performance in a Grand Final that you could possibly want

(59:30):
to see from a team.

Speaker 4 (59:31):
It was a Chiefs. The Blues forced the Chiefs to
make something like one hundred and fifty more tackles, and
you're not in the fight. When you're defending for that long,
you simply can't impose any scoreboard pressure, any territorial pressure.
You you're a battering ram. And the Blues were just

(59:51):
hitting it up, one off the ruck, one off the ruck,
pushing the Chiefs back, and that's resulted in defending for
that long, you get frustrated, and that translated into penalties.
They're on the wrong side of I think it was
a twelve five penalty count Nickberry ping them off the park.
They got a a yellow card in the second half.
So all those things compounded frustrations, mistakes, discipline that they

(01:00:15):
were never in the fight.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
They weren't the first four or five minutes they were
in the fight. They forced a couple of hasty excepts
from the Blues, and then they got a penalty and
took the shot at goal from memory when.

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
It was about fifty odd meters out.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
Yeah, and it missed, But maybe the percentage play was
getting to the twenty two and trying to make a
real early statement. Easier to say that in hindsight. Isn't
it just that those kind of moments, you know, you
get up to a five lead early, seven lead early,
you put some pressure on the opposition three nil, Yes,
it's a final yessu. You want points on the board.
And as I said, easy to say this in hindsight,

(01:00:51):
but maybe getting that scoreboard pressure, taking the crowd out
of it early may have been the option.

Speaker 4 (01:00:56):
Yeah, to a degree, I do feel like it was
written the Stars and the Blues had a composure and
a clinical nature about them that they were always going
to win that. But you're right at the chief score early,
maybe there's a bit of anxiety builds. Things can change quickly,
but it just didn't happen for them, And you're right,
Damien McKenzie, Yes, off a poor platform, but even there's

(01:01:18):
little things like crossfield kicks didn't go to hands. Accuracy
was not there for the Chiefs on the biggest stage,
and that's something that he's going to need to bring
and improve on when he's the starting All Blacks ten
that those are big shoes to fill for Damien in
the next week.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
Or so they are. Let me ask you, we touched
on the Blues and they're probably not going to deviate
from this too much next year. A kidder Joannie is going,
Ricco Yuanni from my understanding, is on sabbatical next year.
So there are a couple of players that have gone,
but otherwise you look through that team and the majority
at this point from our understanding, going to be back

(01:01:55):
for season twenty twenty five. I mean, do they have
the makings of a bit of a dynasty starting here?
I mean it's easy to say after one title, but
do you feel like that the platforms there that they
can build on this get some more silver aware.

Speaker 4 (01:02:10):
It wouldn't go as far to say at dynasty because
I think what the Crusaders have built, and you know,
it's really tough to see that come crumbling down.

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
Special for you to say that here in christ Chips
that they've built their dynasty.

Speaker 4 (01:02:22):
That I don't know if that will ever be repeated,
you know, but look, the makings for the Blues are there.
Cameras sorry for steps into a Kiddawana's shoes, very similar
physical composition type player, and they've also got Anton Signa
and Adrian Choates so some real depth and the loose forwards.

(01:02:44):
They've got Bryce Heim who came off the bench. He
was injured at the back end of the year. I
suspect you'll go one more, so you know there's cover
there for Rico Iwani. They've got depth right across the
park so that they're not losing any big pieces. Vern Stain.
That coaching team's remaining intact and it is a very
high powered coaching team outside of her, and we've talked

(01:03:06):
about all Paul Tito, grig Feak, Jason o'haller and Dan
Helen Gahu, so all the pieces are there and they
are let's not let's be real as well. From a
recruitment and financial perspective, the Blues are better off than
anyone else in this competition, so they are very well
set up to sustain success well.

Speaker 3 (01:03:25):
For a number of seasons, that wasn't the case though,
wasn't it. There was all sorts of excuses about how
no one wanted to live in Auckland because you can't
buy a house there. It's too hard to commuse. It's
da da da da da. The team can't win. Funny
how winning sort of fixes everything in that regard and
this is going to make a more attractive proposition. I mean,
you know, they don't necessarily need to recruit, but if

(01:03:46):
they do, you know, they're right back at the top
of the table in terms of, you know, making those
pictures to players coming through. You know, they've lost a
lot of players through the years from the one A
program that have gone elsewhere and found success. So that's
the you know, winning winning a title can sort of
paper over some of those things. Zaran Sullivan's an interesting one.

(01:04:06):
Hasn't re signed with the Blues for next year. I
imagine all four potentially other franchises are having a look
and maybe trying to get him down. They're so interesting
to see where that he stays on board. But look,
they're well set up, aren't they for future success?

Speaker 4 (01:04:21):
They are, and that's probably the only players that they
do lose, guys that are established and aren't getting the
game time they're looking for. Enzan's one of those guys.
Boden Barratt coming back into the mix next year is
very interesting dynamic in terms of where he slots and
how that affects the dynamic. And for a guy like Zan,

(01:04:44):
he is probably better off going elsewhere, So does he
take the leap of faith like Jacob Ratamvuki Nipkins and others.
You know, Swani vakna at hooker hasn't been cited in
recent times, and there are a litany of examples on
the fringe of that Blue squads who may be looking

(01:05:06):
at the Highlanders or the Crusaders or any other team
to go and push their claims because ultimately, if you
want to be pushing for Horror honors or any rugging player.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
Wants to play, Yeah, they do and they want those opportunities.
So it's going to be fascinating to see where he
ends up and what other transfers there might be around.
The few whispers around. I think suwadi Va Kenna leaving
to potentially go the Highlanders kle Tank Tower on the
way as well, So there will be some change, but
those are players that are in the background, deepen the

(01:05:38):
squad rather than being the first choice players. So yeah,
been a fascinating Super Rugby season and roll on twenty
twenty five.

Speaker 4 (01:05:45):
That's right, and I guess changes in the works with
the drawer and the finals format and a new champion
for the first time in eight years, and I think
you know it's fair to say New Zealand's pretty happy
about it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
Yeah, Australia less. So they'll figure it out. They'll figure
it out eventually. We'll have an Australian champion again one
day and Super Rugby wont me before this all winds up?

Speaker 4 (01:06:06):
Maybe? Maybe what about the kebnets here? Are they any chance.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
They've still they've still got the Super Rugby or one
that's still got that count?

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
Yes, the other Super still got I think they won
the last Super fourteen. Mate, we'll find out some big
holes there. You can't win it for a year. They'll
get back the Hurricanes one of the places. How's the
Hurricanes one?

Speaker 4 (01:06:25):
Oh? Look, you know Clark lade Laer. We trust it's
been an above expectations year and there's a lot of young,
dynamic talent artists coming back and Title town's on the
way to Wellington.

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
If you say so right? That'll do us for rugby
direct from our Christ will be back next week ahead
the first teast against England. Have yourself, it's a good week.
I thanks to Last and Bars English and also to
Habit Health.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
For more from News Talks b listen live on air
or online and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcast on iHeartRadio,