Rugby Direct - Episode 163

This week on Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier reflect on Ardie Savea's standout game that inspired Moana Pasifika to their first victory over the Blues in a compelling Super Rugby Round 14 fixture and whether the man should be All Blacks skipper, along with wrapping the rest of the round.

We also discuss the Black Ferns against Canada, the state of world sevens and we're also joined by injured Blues lock Sam Darry for a feature chat.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from Newstalks EDB. Follow this
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
Straight down the Middle of Drum Dickney Scot try these pa.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliot Smith and Leon Napier powered by News Talks EDB.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Habit Health, cackling all
your aches and pains from sports and work back again
to wrap a big weekend of rugby or get to
the black Ferns a bit later on in the podcast.
Sam Derry also going to join us blues Lot currently
on the sidelines with injury to join the pod as well.
But first and foremost, let's rattle through the weekend that

(00:58):
was in Super Ruggy Pacific Round fourteen. And I think
we have to start with Mawanda Pacifica and the Blues
on Saturday Nightly and twenty seven twenty one. I mean,
everyone's been talking about it, but this was the Ardie
Sava game and it's hard to remember a more influential
one man performance. And I don't I mean that in
a derogatory way to the rest of the Muanna players

(01:20):
because they certainly played their part of me claren toin
wifelosk would three try for goodness sake. But when people
think about this game in six months twelve months time,
it'll be remembered as the game where basically Artie won
the game for Whita Pacifica. He did.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
And there is nothing on a rugby field that Artie
Severe can't do. At the moment. He's added the chip
and chase that the kicking game to his arsenal. He carries,
he gets turnovers, he's presence at the line outs, and
he wrapped up with Super Rugby MVP with two weeks
of the regular season remaining, and nobody would begrudge him

(01:58):
for that. And you extrapolate that performance out and it
is a DiMAGE how much one man can lift the team.
Arti has been the transformative, inspirational figure that Mauana needed
and he has surpassed everyone's expectations beyond that. Now, Mina

(02:23):
do I looked at the coaching team at the start
of the year and they added I think they added
a land of Soorkai slelm up A Suwer and they've
already got Tom Convent, Tryntona Umuger and Stephen Jones. So
it is a very balanced and impressive coaching team. But
Artie has undoubtedly set standards for others to follow, and

(02:47):
in terms of that goes beyond what happens on the field.
It's in terms of what it takes to be a
professional athlete. And then you see what he does on
the field, and how could you not follow a guy
like that?

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean he had the influence. All his
fingerprints are right across that game, right through, you know,
winning the match ceiling penalty at the end, but the
kicking chase he was doing to try in the first
spell that probably should have been given. You know, it
was a follow me sort of performance, and that was
what we've seen them from them when he's been on

(03:19):
the park this season. And it felt like Saturday night
was sort of not necessarily the final frontier because they
haven't beaten everyone that they need to and haven't obviously
made a playoffs, but beating the Blues coming into Auckland,
they weren't given the warmest to welcomes from the Blues.
There's been social media banter and inverted commas between some

(03:43):
of the players from some of the Blues players, but
it felt like that was a statement that they wanted
to make on Saturday night and it felt bigger than
what was on the field. It felt like there was
a bit of a message being sent around this team
being here to stay well.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
It's great for rugby and great for Rugby and Auckland
because this is now a genuine rivalry and I thought
it would be that way earlier. They but the Blues
did it really comfortably in April when they met at
Eden Park, but clearly going to Albany Mina's adopted home
grounds was a different beast. And Wina have improved significantly

(04:21):
since April and they've now beaten four of the five
New Zealand teams this year. And they do play the
Chiefs again. It is a bloody tough run home for them.
They've got the Hurricanes and the Chiefs. But for me,
the turning point in their season was beaten the Crusaders
in christ Church, where a performance blended with physicality and flair,
and that performance I think made them truly believe. It

(04:45):
really was flip the switch. And you know, it's one
thing to have a one up performance, but it's quite
another to go down to christ Church away from home.
And bully the Crusaders really and you're right. How good's
the social media banter that Wyana has embraced now. I
saw tweets from Hoskinstituto which says, keeped out in us,

(05:08):
we just keep picking the right time. Don't care whose
side you're on. There's only one team in the nine,
and Mawana tweeted after their victory, keep on doubting this,
We just keep picking the right time. Don't care whose
side you're on. There's only one team that represents the Pacific.

Speaker 4 (05:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
I mean that's great, that's great for rugby, that's what
you want. But of banter, a bit of rivalry, a
bit of feeling between these two teams, and we saw
that on the weekend and there was feeling throughout that game.
I think early on Angus Gardner had to I'm not
sure who it was between, but you know, there was
a bit of pushing and shoving through words exchange and
Angus Garden's like, right, I know you mates, but you
can't actually do that on the rugby field. But there

(05:44):
was some feeling in there and I thought Mowana very
effectively got under the blue skin. Didn't show any stigal
in the first spell and your Tito Topolo to being
yellow card had hurt Mowana for a period of time.
But second spell they locked in and they really just
dominated that for second forty minutes. You know, it was
fourteen eleven at halftime in favor of the Blues. Well

(06:07):
after halftime there was only really one team in it.
I know Blues got to within a try of stealing
it at the end, but that was an exceptionally good
half hour of fort or forty minutes of Mwana pacific
a rugby to wear the Blues they continue to confound
this season and we might get sam Dera to give
us some answers as to what's exactly going wrong. But

(06:29):
fourteen eleven up at halftime, you know, yes, the tries
were score by there's a player in the bin or
you know one of them was. But they just failed
to fire a shot in the second spell and got
bullied by Mowana on the swore. What did you make
of I guess the Blues performance of a zero in
on that.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
Yeah, the Blues are a bit of an enigma, aren't they.
Because they suggested that they'd turned a wee bit of
a corner, although the opposition was a wee bit lightweight
and dispatching the force and the drur You and I
both and most people were not convinced by that. But
it was the second time this year they've string back
to back performances to gain either and you felt like

(07:11):
maybe they bit of momentum coming into the playoffs that
they were gonna get the shit together and you make
a bit of a run to defend their title. But
they just they're so one dimensional. Yeah, they really are,
and it's predictable and teams know what's coming, and if
you front physically, particularly around the fringes, you stop their

(07:31):
one off runners and mine I didn't do that throughout
that match, but they did do it enough. Then you
blunt pretty much their own weapon.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Didn't use Caleb Clark enough, didn't use aj Lamb enough,
didn't see a lot of the ball in midfield. It
just felt a very one dimensional on attack. I don't
think they've got some of those selections right in the
back line. Zavvy twy looks very, very promising, but I
think they needed to go with perhaps a Harry Plumber
at twelve just to give them a bit more direction

(08:02):
on the Park. It felt like that was lacking. Rico
Yuani very very quiet again and couldn't have an influence
on the game, So try as they might. You know,
Patrick tweop a lot of upfront. Always gives you what
you want Hoskins to to do, you know, Doll and
Pupalai turned up. The obviously had injuries with Chat ruled
out late Christie and then Anton Signey going off a

(08:23):
horrible injury. But they're just not playing like the team
they were last year. We've said that a number of
times and again just looked really clunky on the weekend.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
Yeah, maybe they are playing like the team they were
last year. They're just not as effective enough, and they
are missing guys like Offer, who I think was a
big part of their success last year, particularly at Set Peace,
and that real physicality. But you have to evolve and
what worked one year does not the next. And if
you stand still, you will be overtaken. And I think

(08:55):
it's really that simple with the Blues. They're not being
as efficient and effective and what they were doing last year,
whether it's the Set Peace look or converting their chances
when they get down to the opposition twenty two and
they've just there's not enough. They're not posing enough threats.
Teams know exactly what's coming and the devising plans to.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
Stop it they are. Let's go back to Friday night,
the Crusaders beating the Warritars forty eight thirty three in Sydney. Look,
Crusaders never felt in danger of losing this one. They
were comfortably hit at halftime, but a lot of points
on the board in the first spell, a little bit
clunky after halftime, and then we disappointed not take a
bonus point away from Sydney because they probably deserved to.
And that's the question. I guess they've conceded a lot

(09:41):
of points this year. They've been able to score a
lot of points, but conceded a lot. But in terms
of a balance back from that, Chiefs lost the week before,
probably a pass mark for the Crusaders. Johnny mcnichkell looked
I thought good at fullback rivers Rayhanna looked a lot
better than he did the previous week. They had the
front football and they got going and it was a

(10:01):
case of job done for the Crusaders.

Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, a lot of questions around about why Mecha Springer
wasn't involved in this team thinking did he score four
five five tries in a match and then got dropped
the previous week. I would like to see him in
the mixt I think he's a really dangerous proposition. But
Johnny McNichol was really good from fullback. Yes, hard to
know quite what to take out of this game. The Crusaders,
like you say, we're very good, dominant in the first

(10:25):
half and when you build a lead like that you
can take the foot off of gas to a certain
extent by the Crusaders lineout was a bit wobbly, as
you mentioned. They can see a lot of points and
those areas where you would have concerns leading into the playoffs.
But look, Sydney has not been a happy hunting ground
for them. The Waratars have been much better at home

(10:45):
this year. The failure to get a bonus point could
potentially cost them top spot. That will hurt, That will frustrate,
but yeah, a case of job done. Really.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, They've got bigger challenges on the horizon to close
out their season, Honders and the brum Beads in the
final round. So that's a lot to work through in
terms of the Crusaders, and you know, whether they get
into those top two spots for the playoffs. Now in
New Zealand, Derby Friday Night Hurricanes Thissus the Highlanders can
roy Guard wins it after the sireen for the home

(11:18):
team and for me, this is probably the Highinder's best
performance since they beat the Blues way back in round two,
round three, whenever it was, they come out on the
losing side. But this is what we've wanted to see
from the hind Is this kind of what we saw
in the opening few weeks when Tabatavanawa has been talking
about as an All Blacks boulter and various other things.

(11:39):
He was good on the weekend. I thought taniel Talia
Tanielu Talia was very good. Number of good individual performances.
They deserved probably to at least take it the super point,
but they couldn't quite get there in the end and
the Hurricanes just refused to die. What did you make
of that performance?

Speaker 3 (11:59):
Very impressive performance from the Highlanders. They dominated large parts
of that game physically won a lot of contests. The
Hurricanes lost a lot of players and you none Punavi
a number of others carrying Knox that the midfielders really
Higgins and Billy Proctor, so interesting to see how they

(12:20):
pull up. But yeah, I think the Highlands will feel
that's one that's got away. They went to Wellington, really
took it to the Hurricanes. Fabian Holland was another one
that really stood up, challenged the Hurricanes line out. Got
a couple of steels there, so pressing his case for
national inclusion later this year, and the Hurricanes really got
out of jail. Can Royguard plays eighty minutes, sneaks over

(12:42):
at the death really important one for the Hurricanes to
stay in the mix. They do have a wee bit
of breathing room with a game in hand on the
likes of the Blues. But yeah, I expected a lot
more of the Hurricanes had got the train rolling in
recent weeks and all very nearly came off the tracks.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, it was nearly case of the Auckland rail system
in the end for the Hurricanes. But look they've got
the job done and and they built confidence from wins. Yes,
not maybe not performances, but wins getting a bit of
a roll on. You know, they've got a couple of
tough games to come. Reds Away more wanted to finish.
So when you look at that playoff mix. Brumbi's out

(13:22):
on top of the moment on forty three, but they've
got one buy to come the Chiefs, Crusaders and behind
on forty one. Reds, Hurricanes and mo Wanda Pacifica. You know,
Reds and Hurricanes and one have all got to play
each other in a little week's circle. So there are
points to be dropped, points to be one and the
Blues obviously on the outside as well looking in. So
the Hurricanes sit comfortably, but you know that's a big

(13:44):
game this weekend against the Reds and Brisbane.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
It is and the Reds have been very good in Brisbane.
They towled up the Blues there and it's not an
easy place to go. Sun Court great venue. Very interesting
to see what the Hurricanes do with Brick Cameron back.
I thought he was good and Ruben Love probably played
his best rugby from fullback, sparked a breakout. So Rubin

(14:06):
Love started at ten the past three weeks and perform
reasonably will certainly the past couple of weeks not so
good against the Hanas without that front four platform. So
wouldn't be surprised to see the Hurricanes go back to
Brett Cameron at ten. And Reuben Love at fall Back.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
Interesting, isn't it? And you look at that table. As
I mentioned, they're very very tightly congested. As we head
into the final couple of weeks of the season, the
Highland is playing the Chiefs. Just on the Highlanders performance,
They've got the Crusaders this week, Chiefs to finish. That's
a tough finish for the Highlands or already bottom of
the ladder. I wonder whether they may be targeted That

(14:41):
Hurricanes game is maybe not saying it out right, but
perhaps this is the one we can target and go
let's give our best performance for this one. It was
close but didn't quite get there.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
Yeah. It's brutal, isn't it. And you can see them
running out of steam. That's three hugely taxing physical ki
we doubies in a row and you can see them.
They've already been blown out by the Chiefs and Hamilton
this year last push. But it's a big ask, it is, indeed.

Speaker 4 (15:11):
Right.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
We'll take quick break here on Rugby Direct, come back
with the second half of the podcast and Blues Lock
Sam Dowry on the way as well. Back with more
after this. Thanks to our friends at Habit Health.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
Every try trys sixty second, every tackle tackles, get up again,
I take him before after time it's Rugby Direct. You're
back with Rugby Direct. Time now for our final four.
The Black Ferns in Canada. Twenty seven piece scoring after
the siren in christ Church to make a draw. That

(15:49):
a conversion from the sideline to win it and go over.

Speaker 4 (15:53):
Is a draw?

Speaker 2 (15:54):
A fair result? And what do you learned from a
performance like that?

Speaker 3 (15:56):
I think it is a fair result. Black fans probably
getting out of jail to certain degrax. We talked last
week that we expected more from than week one, talked
about a bit of us. They should have been better
week two and I don't think they work in it
are coming in cold. Good team have improved a lot
in recent years. So great to have a proper head

(16:19):
out to be tested, to be pushed like that. But yeah,
a number of work on for the Black Ferns. Would
you like to see extra time? No, it's a test match,
it's not a knock it's not a knockout competition. There's
no need for twenty seven all that was a fair result.
I thought there's no need for extra time. If if
the demanded kicked that from the touch line and one,
not great, but twenty seven all. If you can't get

(16:41):
it done in eighty in a test match, you don't
deserve an extra ten minutes.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, what what I would like to see that? I'm sorry,
did you have it?

Speaker 3 (16:48):
I was just gonna say the punters would have liked
to a result.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, well you know, but okay, put it to you there. Okay,
I say, the opening game of the season plenty all
Blacks in France ends in a twenty seven all draw.
Would you like to see extra time?

Speaker 1 (16:59):
No?

Speaker 3 (16:59):
I agree, I think it's a draw is a viable
result in that context, unless you're deciding a title or
that sort of context. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
Absolutely. What I do want to see though, some of
those SEVENS players coming through Alan Bunting. I mean, understandable
because Georgia Miller, Stacy Wacker reci pot of Landa and
arrived in on the Monday and so didn't play them.
But I would like to see them against the United
States this weekend because time is running out. I mean,
I think they're guaranteed World Cup selections, but in terms
of getting them into a run on fifteen or twenty three.

(17:30):
This has to be the week against the United States
on Saturday. Portia Wooden Wickcliffe I thought was good, but
I think she needs to move into center. Playing her
on the wing, you need to get her hands on
the ball and she can be destructive in midfield. Amy
Duplassy is a solid option, but I think if you
can get portch wood in Wickcliffe and you've got a
number of talented wingers that can play alongside Woodman and Wickcliffe,

(17:53):
you get a lot more punch out of midfield then
probably what you're getting out of Amby Douplass. So Alan
Bunting sort of said that he sees her as a wing.
I think the time might be changing that. You know,
she played there for the Blues and player for the
match in the final. To move her in to the midfield, yeah, totally.
She needs to get a hand on the ball.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
She was destructive there for the Blues and probably doesn't
she's wasted on the wing. Yeah, and probably doesn't have
the same out and outpace either that she used to have.
But you look at others, there's a catalog of players
who have moved in throughout their careers and yeah, I
think there's a change of thinking needed there Black.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Fans, United States. On Saturday afternoon, you can hear that
on Gold Sport and iHeartRadio number two. In the Final four,
Ireland last week axing their men's seven side. They would
do you to compete on the new second tier of
the league, they will not be obviously, what implications do
you think this has for the World Series in any
four New Zealand that line's gone where she don't need

(18:50):
a men's seven's program, We're going to do without it.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Well, sevens is in a complete state of flux. I
saw the International Players Association put out a statement having
a crack at World Rugby saying we need to be
consulted on any changes this is in and react to
World Rugby trying to set up some form of IPL

(19:13):
style sevens. Very rogue idea that the players clearly weren't
consulted about. I think if Ireland were in the top
tier the men's side, they wouldn't have been ax but
the fact that they haven't performed in recent times gave
Irish Rugby a window or an excuse to ax them.
But bring it home to a New Zealand context. If

(19:34):
New Zealand Rugby turned around at the end of the
season and said, well, the men aren't performing, We're not
funding them anymore. There'll be a hell of an outcry.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Probably, Yes, I've been I'm a third on the league standings,
not the season, just been the season before that. But
they've had a pretty big drop They were great at
the Olympics as well, but they've had a pretty big
drop off in the last twelve months. Would there be
an outcry? I don't know. I genuinely look at it
and go where is sevens at, especially in the men's
game at the moment, the women I think are doing

(20:02):
really you know, well, there is and one of the
reasons that the Irish gave was the pathways to the fifteens.
So they've lost thirty three million New Zealand dollars in
their financial statements. But if we look at sevens, what
is it existing for at the moment? Is it a
pathway to fifteen's or is its own individual sport? I
guess in the women's game there is pathways through the

(20:23):
fifteens if you want to take that path, and the
women sevens seems even a healthier state than the men's
at the moment. The Olympic question I suppose around it
is that you've got you know that that's come through
since twenty sixteen, but that was going to be the
savior of the sevens to an extent. In fact, it's
sort of now providing more questions around its future. I'm

(20:46):
must saying New Zealand will access seven men's sevens team,
but I guess there are questions around it and what
it's there for. Like in theory, could you take a
team out of the World Series and go, we're going
to try and qualify a year out from the Olympics,
and we're going to put in some more super ruggy
players or maybe even all blacks into it rather than say,
koreer sevens players, because you know, in New Zealand's in
the men's format, it's only taken what one medal from

(21:08):
three Olympic Games. So I guess the question that I've
gotten a roundabout way is what is the future of
New Zealand men's sevens.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, it's a great question. I think there does need
to be a different lens to the men's and women's game,
because the woman's very much is not a development but
a pathway, and we see that with the transition between
for the fifteen's World Cups, for the last World Cup,
for this World Cup, and it is a great way

(21:35):
to introduce young females to the game and remains that
way where the men we have seen some crossover in
recent times. I think maybe five or six for this
Super Rugby season came directly from last year's men's sevens.
But I have major questions about the future of the circuit,

(21:55):
of the relevance of the men's, of the funding. But
it is hard because of that historical piece when you
think about and we're going back a long time here,
but the height of the Culen, the Lomos, the Hong
Kong sevens. But everything evolves and changes.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
It does, and it just feels like no one quite
knows what to do with the World Series at the moment.
Obviously more changes on the way for next year, and
you know, there's all sorts of questions about where it
sits in the New Zealand program as well. You got
what two hundred odd Super Rugby players in the six
franchises based in New Zealand. Obviously some of those are
Fijian and someone in players from one to PACIFICA but

(22:35):
unless you're real seven specialists you are kind of already
dealing with. And I don't mean it's disrespectfully, but players
below the top two hundred in New Zealand.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
All, let's break it down further. When was the last
time you actually sat down outside and of the Olympics
and watched the men's sevens that I honestly there might
have been one or two games, but very rarely because
of time zones. New Zealand doesn't have a tournament anymore.
It is really losing relevance.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Look, yeah, and it's hard because it's been always been
this globe trotting event, but it was always centered around
you know, we'll see them in Wellington. You know, you
might catch some of the Hong Kong sevens and all
that sort of thing. But it just feels like World
RABIY doesn't know what to do with it, and it
wants to be at the Olympics. It wants that spot there.
I just wonder whether maybe you know, not cut your

(23:28):
losses necessarily, but you're outside of a seven, outside of
a Olympics, you don't have it. It's not the Komwealth
Games anymore for it for twenty twenty six. So that's
another event gone. There's no World Cup anymore. So I
feels like World Rabih does not what to do with it.
It feels like, yeah, there's a as you said that
the top real state of flux around that topic. Three
will you draw a line through the Blues?

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Well, a few weeks ago I said they'll make the playoffs,
but they won't won the title, and.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
I will stick with that. Who do they coming for
in the playoffs? Then they've got one game to go,
more of two games and it gets a game in hand,
two games to go to the Blues one. Hurricanes have
two games to go. The Reds have two games to go. There,
you know they're on the outside looking at they are.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
Is a very difficult run home for Moana, and I
think they will struggle to consistently back up those performances.
They've got the Chiefs and the Hurricanes. I can't see
them beating the Chiefs. They could tip up the Hurricanes.
So that's the make up great game for them. So
I will say they will sneak in at Mowana's expense.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
I think you're probably right. I don't know. I mean,
I don't think they can win it, but I think
they can make the playoffs. They can sneak in because
as I said before, you know to reads Hurricanes, Moana,
they've all got to play each other sort of over
the next couple of weeks. Cannibalization, Yeah, but a cannibalization
going on there. Top number four Loyal Listen to Floyd

(24:57):
also pitched this as well. It was on the sheep
or ready to discuss. It's an interesting question. It's been
talked about a lot in the last forty eight hours
and in fact through the season. Ardie sav and the
All Blacks Captaincy, this question will not go way around
whether he is the better option to lead the All Blacks.
Where do you sit on this? We've seen what his
leadership has done for more onea Pacific. Could he do
the same for the All Blacks?

Speaker 3 (25:18):
Yes, he could, and I think it is increasingly looking
like a misstep. And I can totally understand it from
Raiser's perspective. He had the relationship with Scott Barrett, and
we saw that with Ian Foster and Samkin that those
relationships are intrinsic to being on the same page getting

(25:41):
your messaging rights. But I think Scott Barrett's and he'd
probably say this himself was a reluctant All Blacks captain
is still very much growing into that role where Ardi
is ready now. And so I think we've seen how
inspirational he's been and the makeup of the All Blacks.

(26:01):
There's a number of Pacific Polynesian athletes in that team,
and I think Artie spom like no one else can.
So I think he should be the All Blacks captain.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
He can lead him anyways. And it's not a knock
on Scott Barrett.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
I just I feel like Artie would be a better
All Blacks captain and that would also allow Scott Barrett
to drop the shoulders Scott.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
The depressions now on Scott Barrett. Isn't that because and
you know, not saying that Scott Robinson's going to make
the call and whatever, but he won't. He won't. But
Artie Savy has shown what he can do. Scott Barrett
hasn't played that well this year, struggle with injuries last
year and obviously the first season being All Blacks captain.
Can he deliver? Can he do both? I suppose it's

(26:50):
the question can he play to a world class standard
and can he lead the team. We've seen artists to
be a player to world class standard for more wider
pacifica and lead them exemplary. Whether that can translate to
Super Rugby level. A lot of the things he did
on Saturday night may not translate to Test level. He's
probably not going to do the outrageous chip and chase

(27:10):
necessarily he may do at Test level. I don't know,
but he probably put that in his pocket a little
bit Addie Sevia, But in some of those tuneovers, maybe
he doesn't get those at Test level when they're read
a little bit differently. But I think the onus now
is on Scott Barrett to go prove that you're a
world class player as well as world class captain.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
There's different styles of leadership. Scott Barrett doesn't need to
be Artie Severe. Artie Severe is not going to be
Scott Barrett. So Artie Severe is the follow me type
skipper Scott Barrett as his own man, and the same
for Richie mccare and they're like some captaincy leadership styles
are vocal, some are performance based, and everyone's different. You

(27:51):
need to find what works for you. And Test rugby
is very different to Super and it's not it's also
not just on one guy, but his vice captain on
the on the on the evidence of the past eighteen months,
you would say Artie Severe should be the All Blacks captain.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Let's get into tipping now. We both picked four correctly.
I picked Mowana to beat the Blues though, and you
picked the Brumbies to beat the Reds and win the
opposite right around there. So the important news is that
I still have an eight point lead. Crusaders. Highland is
Friday nights at Orange Theory Apollo Projects am I Stadium
in christ Church.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
Up the Landlers, but I'll tip the Thrusaders.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Crusaders. Job done. Read's Hurricanes. We blip a blip on
the old tracks for the hurricane the Cane train last week,
there's Lee's kiss take full advantage.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
The Canes are pretty banged up, aren't they back. I
can't not tip them. We could, I'm not going to.
So there you go checks Mowana Pacifica and they do
it two weeks in a row. Wana they can, but
I will not tip them to do so. I am
going to tip them to do so. Forced warratas this

(29:02):
is the game you're almost looking forward to.

Speaker 4 (29:04):
I know.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Perth on Saturday night.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
Liam Yes will be sitting up for this one with
the popcorn and Lolly's very tough game to Tip, I
will go the tars.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
I'm going to get the fourth time team to win
that one MVP Medal voting time now the official Super
Rugby MVP Medal has been decided. But this is the
real the real deal is Yeah. Yeah, Addie Savia already
had a six point buffer over Bowden, Barrett nineteen plays
thirteen Well Jordan and Quincapiere thirty, Belond nine, Rick and Artie.
Save gets any more points this week? A couple? Yeah, okay,

(29:39):
give us ones then then.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
Yeah, so Ardie is going to get the three, get
the chocolates. Impossible. Isn't that to overlook such a herculean performance.
I'm going to give two to cam Rugard. I think
it's the first time that she's played eighty minutes. Is
a bit of anks among Hurricanes fans every time he
was replaced and so drop off Yeah, big time. And

(30:02):
the fact he scored the match winning try speaks to
his ability to go that long. So too to Rugad
and one to tough Aha. I thought he was a
center of vastly improved Harland's performance a couple of big
turnover turnovers on his own line and back to the
midfield where he it's close to the action.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
It was pointed out to me last week that actually
forgot to give my three two webs in the podcast,
so I will make sure I do this week. Artie
gets my three, cam Roiger gets my two as well,
and Kira in time Woifelour gets my one point. So
Artie's lead now out to about twelve points, not insurmountable
necessarily because we do go through the playoffs as well,
but he's probably odds on favorite to win the MVP

(30:44):
Medal voting. Just one thing I did want to touch
on before we go to Sam Darrow, who's standing by
to jump in the studio. The fascical scenes on Saturday
night around the TMO decision that they went back three
phases and everyone had this say. Angus Gardner, the touch
judge who his name escapes me and Ben O'Keeffe all

(31:05):
had this say as to deciding whether they could rule
it out, whether it was in protocol or not. This
is further example of just too many rules, too much,
too many things in the rule book complicating rugby. I
think they made the right call because he was out.
Artists have obviously played his case and said it's outside
the phases, and you know it probably is correct. But

(31:27):
they talked about five or six minutes and I still
the fan didn't not at the end whether they made
the right call in terms of the law book or
the wrong one.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
Yeah, I think common sense probably prevailed. But the whole process,
the confusion speaks to rugby's convolutedness, doesn't it. And it
just needs to have some hard and fast rules. Either
you want their intrusion or you don't. But there was
another example of this recently where they went so far back.

(31:57):
Who was that was that the Crusaders game? Yeah, I
can't remember, but it was the Blues against the Reds
in Brisbane and they went back twenty odd phases in
that regard. And it's unnecessary. You render so much of
the action irrelevance. So just make it clearer, because, like

(32:18):
you say, the viewer is the one that's sitting there
losing time and baffled by the end of it about
what's actually happening. If the refreeze don't know, how's the family.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
And the temo it's this overarching thing that are supposed
to know and be correct on the rules, and yes,
adding another complicated layer. So look, sort it out, sort
it out. And as I said, I've said number of
times in the program, been the team right, Sam Dearry
going to join us on Rugby Direct blues Loot currently

(32:48):
endured with a shoulder injury. Let's go to our chat
with Sam Derek. Sam Darry, welcome to Rugby Direct.

Speaker 4 (32:53):
Thanks for coming in, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Well, it's been obviously a frustrating season for you to date.
I guess first and foremost, how's the injury progressing and
when can we might maybe see you back on the park.

Speaker 5 (33:04):
Yeah, yeah, that definitely has been frustrating, come to terms
of it all now. But Andrew's progressing well. I had
had a specialist appointment a week ago actually and gave
me the all clear to start lifting weights kind of
bench press above head press and all that kind of things.
Progressing too, a few skills and then kind of mapped
out a little bit more what the next kind of

(33:27):
two months look like. So yeah, still about two two
and a half months roughly away from playing, so targeting
the final NPC preseason game for Kennery and then hopefully
be available for round one. I think we've got Wellington,
so yeah, it's it's quite exciting having that kind of
set date and having something to work towards, you know,
whereas the first few months can be a bit difficult

(33:49):
where you kind of feel like you're working. You're obviously
working towards something, but it's so far in the distance,
you know, So having that end date in the near
future is exciting.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Has it been a frustrating year or did you manage
to say get over it quickly? We're kind of rehabit,
are you No?

Speaker 4 (34:05):
I think that's I think you did right. Obviously, very
very straining. At first.

Speaker 5 (34:10):
It took a week bit to come to terms with
I think, you know, it kind of didn't really seem real.
Kind of happened very quickly, and then was seeing surgeons
getting different opinions, and then about a week later I
was under the knife, and even then it was kind
of very surreal. And I don't think it was until
the first our first home game up here.

Speaker 4 (34:29):
Was out. The game was in the sheds.

Speaker 5 (34:31):
You know, you smell the deep peat, you get all
those kind of feels, and then all of a sudden
you don't get to go on the field. So that
was when it kind of hit home that this was
going to be the reality for the next six months.
But as you say, that's it was kind of about, Wow,
there's nothing I could do about it, so kind of
coming to terms with it, as you say, getting over
it and trying to focus on what I can to

(34:52):
improve my foot and outside of rugby as well.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
Is this your first major injury carew.

Speaker 4 (34:59):
It's the longest one I've had.

Speaker 5 (35:00):
I broke my arm two years ago and that put
me out for about four months, but it was kind
of near the back end of Super and start of MPC,
so I think I actually only missed about maybe eight
to ten games, I think. So this has definitely been
the longest in terms of missed the whole season six
months rehab, whereas I I think a month or two

(35:21):
of the rehab for my arm was during the off
season between the two. So it has been But yeah,
I guess I've had a few niggles and stuff and
as I said, my arm, so it's kind of I
know what the process looks like.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, just in terms of the rehab and everything I've
heard from previous players, it can be quite a lonely existence.
I guess you know, us a team sport, used to
the camaraderie and doing things together. But if you're injured,
you're you're often off by yourself or isolated to a degree.
What's said experience been.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
Yeah, yeah, it.

Speaker 5 (35:53):
Can be a Weever, I'm actually pretty fortunate, well fortunate
for me, maybe not for him, but Ran Paul, who's
in the Blues this year. He did a very very
similar injury, I think a week later than me. So
we both kind of come and go a wee bit
like I'm down and I shot a wee bit for
UNI and for seeing family and stuff, and he's down
in the mound to weep it. But we're lucky that

(36:14):
our training programs look lot quite similar, so we kind
of do a lot of it together. He's a week
or so behind me in his reheab, so he's kind
of always asking me what it's been like and all that.
But I've tried to stay as connected as I can.
I took a wee bit of a break through the
middle of the year, but when I'm in Auckland, I'm
going all the meetings, I'm helping out where I can
I'm in the gym with the boys, I'll be out

(36:35):
at training with it, just do a moone running.

Speaker 4 (36:37):
Or whatever it is.

Speaker 5 (36:37):
So it definitely can be lonely, but I've tried to
kind of stay as connected as possible, and I guess.

Speaker 4 (36:44):
To try and help with that.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
What are you studying?

Speaker 5 (36:47):
Studying a commis degree, So there was one of the
things I decided i'd work on with with the injury.
So I've been kind of chipping away for about seven
years now and I've got four papers to go. So
I'm doing three this semester and hopefully all going well.
I only have one to do next semester.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
Nice. Yeah, it's good to have a bit of a
balance in life, right.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 (37:05):
And I think Mum and Dad have always been quite
big and I think I'm pretty keen on it as well.
I think obviously hopefully I don't have to use it
for another eighteen years all going well, but I think
at the end the end of my career, it might
just show that, you know, I can, you know, there's
more to me than just tossing the ball around and
running through things, you know.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
Yeah, Perc, you touched on a little bit there. But
going back to cross Church for your hometown Elliott's from there,
I give them a lot of stick for it, big
Crusaders fans. Yeah, yeah, I won't hold that against them.
But you know, you turned a few heads, right. It
was a surprise you came through the cross Church schooling
system into the Canterbury ranks and the move to Auckland's.

(37:45):
From the outside in you it was a big risk.
You know, the Crusaders were the team they produced a
lot of all blacks. What was your thinking at that time?

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (37:57):
Mate, it was a very, very difficult decision. I never
never saw it as an option. I kind of always assumed,
as you say, kind of going through the academy down
in christ Church and assume that would be the past way.
And then it was actually a bit of a weird
one though, because I hadn't really grown up supporting the Crusaders.
Because my dad was I think he played one or

(38:17):
two games for a Tigo I was born down there.
He always supported the Hands growing up. My older brother
always supported the Hans growing up, so I kind of.

Speaker 4 (38:25):
Was supported them as well.

Speaker 5 (38:28):
And then, but yeah, I just came through the system
and always thought there would be the way I went,
and then Leon kind of gave me a call one
day and very unexpected and kind of just planted the
seed and then followed it up a couple of weeks later,
and then the Crusaders kind of came to the party and.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
Had do you have much to do of Leon?

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Before that?

Speaker 3 (38:47):
Nah?

Speaker 4 (38:47):
No, I hadn't had.

Speaker 5 (38:48):
I hadn't had really. Oh, actually a wee But I
went to school with his son, Harry. It was a
year above me, I think, so. I think i'd maybe
met him then, but but not from a rugby point
of view, but I guess yeah, I kind of looked
at it and saw I think there was the COVID year.

Speaker 4 (39:05):
I think it was, so.

Speaker 5 (39:05):
I think it was when the maybe Leon's first year.
I'd had quite a good season and then went over
to South Africa and won all the games over there
or something, and we're kind of starting to build quite
nicely and kind of waged up where I might sit
in the picking order in christ Church and in Auckland.
Weighed up a heap of different things. I think it

(39:26):
probably took me almost a month or two to make
my decision. Like I would wake up one day sure
that I was coming up here and the next I'd
think I was going to stay, so yeah, and then
ultimately just decided that, you know, the opportunity up here
was not only from a rugby point view, but also
just from a life point of view. Like I kind

(39:46):
of thought if I stayed in christ Church with the
Crusaders that I potentially could be there till I was
all going well thirty four to thirty five, and all
of a sudden, I'm thirty five years old and never
really left christ Church. So sat it as a coo
opportunity from that point of view as well, getting out
of christ Church moving to Auckland, and also in terms
of playing time. Obviously there was still qualitie locks in
Auckland at the time, but potentially not as well established

(40:10):
as the guys and the Crusaders that you had Luke Romano,
Sam Whitelocke, Scott Barrett, Mitch Dunshake, Quinn Strange. So it's
some pretty impressive cattle there. But yeah, I'm very glad
I made it, and I've never looked back since.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
How valuable is Simon Like Patrick Tweop, a lot who
have been in that transition, I guess coming up from
christ Church and having a leader like him to work
alongside learn off as a lock. How valuable is someone
like him being in your rugby creatives?

Speaker 4 (40:37):
Yeah? Yeah, he's been awesome.

Speaker 5 (40:40):
Him and everyone else, all the players, all the locks
that I've been fortunate enough to play with, have helped
me a heap in my in my journey. But Patty's
been you know, you look at who he is. He's
a you know, he's not he doesn't speak speak the most,
but when he does it carries a lot of weight.
And he's obviously a very physical and dominant player, and
he's helped me with that in a lot of different areas.

(41:01):
And then I think someone like Luke Romano also was
massive for me. Him and I had a really good
relationship through Canterbury through his when he came up here
and played his time up here. He was actually a
very kind of big mental for me, I guess, and
he was always massive and same with Petty around trying
to get me to understand my size were probably you know,
growing up a skinny white boy, you never seem to

(41:25):
think that you're you're going to be big, and then
you kind of start to put on a bit of
size and you're not used to kind of using it
and manipulating situations to suit your size. So he was
really really Gramano was really big for me in their aspect,
and so was Petty.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Was there a moment where it clicked and said, hey,
hang on, I'm a two hundred and four seemed to
me to bloke, I can use the size on the
rugby field to my advantage.

Speaker 5 (41:48):
I actually think that almost was away but we played
it was super round. Maybe three years ago. We played
Fiji Drewer in Melbourne and I kind of just had
been romana. I've been working a lot with me around
kind of running onto the ball and trying to dictate
contact as opposed to catching, and you know, obviously you

(42:10):
want to use your feet, but just kind of using
your momentum and your size. And had a couple of
good carries in that game, a couple of good tackles
as well, And I mean them coming up to me
after the game and saying, you finally figured it out,
And I said, now you just got to do it
every week. And I think that part they are doing
it every week. I'm still kind of working on. But
I think that was a year bit of a confidence booster.
I think and yeah, building me up to dominating contact area.

Speaker 3 (42:34):
How are were you when you move to Aalkland?

Speaker 5 (42:37):
It was twenty twenty one, so I think I was
twenty and then turn twenty one midway through the year.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
And so twenty four now I guess you know you
you go on and off the fields, but in terms
of your touched on the size, the physical composition, can
you give us a bit of an insight about how
you go about putting on weight as it's eating rice
noodles whatever it is, because generally speaking, test locks are

(43:07):
what one hundred and twenty and thirty kgs? So how
much weight have you had to put on? And more specifically,
how do you go about it?

Speaker 5 (43:15):
I think when I came up from memory, I was
about one hundred and seven, and I remember it was
the first kind of thing they talked about, was putting
on weight, and it's I think, I like, it's always
been the thing for me, obviously very lucky with my
height and it's I guess maybe having a frame that
I can carry it. So it's always been the thing
for me, and it was obviously my mum's nutritus with

(43:38):
the ab so having here on my corner has definitely
been very helpful. And honestly, at first when I first
came up here, it was anything and everything, Like it
was mainly around making sure I was having the protein
hits throughout the day, but then around that just anything
and everything. Like I think I remember my first year
up here, the trainer Phil Herey who's over in Japan now.

(44:02):
I think I remember him saying to me like, oh,
you can, like if you wanted to, you can go
to bed and just before you get bed, you can
make it smoothie and when you get up to go
to the toilet in the night, you just have your smoothie.
And I was just like I was like, far, that's
all even extreme, Like it enough, I'm quite going to
do that, Like I'm pretty keen just to lie down
and sleep for a while. But like it was to

(44:23):
that point like I was so skinny and light that
they were just trying to peck weight on me anyway
they could. And I think I can't remember, but I
think I was about one twelve, one thirteen that first
super season. But since then it's just been a kind
of gradual growth. Probably skim folds probably aren't where they
need to be at the moment, which is quite ironic
giving Mum's role. But I think because of as you say,

(44:45):
the position I'm in and unfortunate enough that my fitness
is one of my strengths that I can seem to
carry it right around the field. So I guess it's
about trying to find that happy medium. But it's still
something I'm working on, like especially with the injury, not
being out of gym too much for the better part
of two months, trying to work on getting their size

(45:06):
back up and eating well and little bit more weight.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Was one O seven when you sort of came up here,
what won twenty ish? Now?

Speaker 5 (45:14):
Yeap, So I won twenty through Super last year back
back around about one eighteen through the AB season, so
pretty keen to try and sit around that kind of
one eighteen to one twenty mark for the time being,
and maybe as I get older that lifts up a
wee bit.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
But yeah, yeah, and you must notice it, I guess,
having played international rugby and the like, and you probably
didn't play the South African teams, but yeah, coming up
against some of those bigger locks, you know it's the difference.

Speaker 5 (45:39):
And yeah, oh, definitely definitely. I played one game against
South Africa off the bench and I think I had
one carry and got stripped to.

Speaker 4 (45:48):
The ball, So still a few work on there.

Speaker 5 (45:51):
But yeah, you definitely notice it, and even at super level,
like as I say, like what Romano and Patty talk about,
like just using your size to I guess us a
bit of footwork to get a slight weak shoulder, and
then just using your body height, your feet, all your
hard parts and my area, just trying to go through
through the collision. And even if you might make contact

(46:13):
and fall, you know, being tall, you kind of fall
two meters and then you place. You know, you're already
kind of over the game line. So you definitely notice
it in the collisions. You notice when you're cleaning rucks,
when you're making tackles. It just means you, I think
it just means your technique potentially it doesn't have to
be as good, so you can kind of get away
with a bit more I guess, but obviously in an
idea wild your techniquess good and you got the Wight

(46:35):
Pine in you.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
How do you look back at twenty twenty four Blues
Championship All Black Stay Boo, pretty big year? Yeah, how
do you look back at last year.

Speaker 5 (46:44):
It was awesome, but I mean it's it's tough because
you're never really satisfied. You know, there's still things that
I would want to work on and am still driving towards.
So you kind of look back at it and you're like, yeah,
that was great and it's ticked off a lot of
goals I had. But at the same time, it's kind
of like, what's next, you know, And that was I
guess taken away.

Speaker 4 (47:03):
Weave it by the injury, but.

Speaker 5 (47:06):
You know, being rugby player an athlete, yeah, it is
kind of tough to stop and smell the flowers at times,
I think, because, as you say, it was awesome, but
you know, you make it and then you're wanting to start,
or you wanted to make the twenty three, and then
that happens and you're wanting to you know, there's always
something more that kind of comes on top of the
goals you might have already had. So it was great,

(47:29):
but you're very excited about trying to get back in there,
I guess and do it again.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
You you mentioned that's too African experience. It's someone that
didn't play super in South Africa.

Speaker 4 (47:36):
What was that like?

Speaker 2 (47:37):
Sold out? Alice Park, the Cape Town Stadium as well.
Those were big pressure cooker environments. What was it like
playing and being part of the all black environment.

Speaker 5 (47:45):
In terms of the whole experience, it was incredible. As
you say, they've kind of missed that through super and
I remember hearing a lot of the boys talk about
it and talk about the atmosphere and everything, and yeah,
it was unbelievable that they just love their footy over there.
They're very passionate Alice Park, it just feels like everyone's
on top of you.

Speaker 4 (48:06):
But no, it was awesome.

Speaker 5 (48:07):
Obviously disappointing results over there for us and potentially probably
disappointing performances myself as well, but in terms of an
actual experience of playing in that environment, learning what it's
like feeling that pressure, I absolutely love today. It's it's
where you want to be as a footy player. It's
the games you watch. You know, you remember getting up

(48:29):
and at three am in the morning as a kid
watching the games, the flyover before the game, the whole
kind of experience that goes along with it.

Speaker 4 (48:38):
It was.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
It was just incredible and interview till you suffered the
knee injury before the Irish Test, Yeah, during the week.

Speaker 4 (48:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
Yeah, so you came home after that. But were you
obviously on track to be ready for the super season
this year with that need? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (48:52):
Yeah, so that was just it was a Grade two
MCL sprain, so it was I think it was about
four to six week recovery, So yeah, it was.

Speaker 4 (49:02):
On track.

Speaker 5 (49:03):
I think I went back up to Auckland in about
December last year to kind of check in with the
physios and they all happen with how I was going,
and then yeah, I went back a couple of weeks
before we meant to start doing a bit of training.
So yeah, everything was was kind of on track and
until it wasn't.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
I guess what's just change text like, what's what's been
quite have been like as a as a mentor as
a blues coach to you with obviously started under Leon,
now Verne's coming last couple of years. What have you
learned under under Vincotts.

Speaker 5 (49:28):
Yeah, he's been amazing, been very fortunate to have to
have two great coach as well.

Speaker 4 (49:32):
A the Blues.

Speaker 5 (49:33):
Leon was awesome as well, and Vern's kind of come
in and just really really built that hard edge. You know,
he's very old school. He tells her how it is.
But I think I responded quite well to that, that
kind of coaching. You know, growing up, Dere was a
wee bit like that as well, so you know, it's
it's quite familiar to me, and I think it brings
the best out of me.

Speaker 4 (49:54):
You know, he's it's it's I wouldn't say it's very rare.

Speaker 5 (49:59):
You see him happy, like he is happy when we
have good performances, but it's you know, he's I guess,
kind of similar to what I touched on before. He's
always looking for more because he knows that, I guess,
the potential we have as a team. And yeah, him
coming in obviously we're very lucky to have some great
athletes and some very physically dominant players, but building that

(50:19):
hard edge, that ruthlessness throughout the year, and you know,
it's potentially something that we might have struggled with this year,
but that's kind of what he brings to the table,
and he's been amazing for us and in form as
a player.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
How much of a shift in style was it from
Leon to vern because from the outside it does seem
significant and it did seem to really work for you
last year, and maybe teams have figured it out of
it this year. Yeah, how much of a shift has
that style being?

Speaker 4 (50:46):
It was? Yeah, it was massive.

Speaker 5 (50:49):
I really enjoyed it though, because playing in New Zealand,
you throughout the Academy systems, through NPC through Super everyone
kind of plays quite similarly. Like you have your your structures,
whether it's a two four two or one three three
one or whatever it is, and you it's quite strict
within that and you you know, everyone has that kind

(51:09):
of similar approach, whereas he kind of just flipped it
completely on its head for what all of us had seen.
And it definitely took a while. I remember throughout preseason
it was there was a lot of adjusting to it
and him trying to get rid of the structure and everything.
But I guess, yeah, it just kind of helped us
see the game in a different way, and you know,
it's obviously quite a European style of play, and yeah,

(51:33):
it was.

Speaker 4 (51:33):
It was awesome.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
You know.

Speaker 5 (51:34):
I think, as I said, we having physical athletic players,
you know, with Hoskins Paddy Aki last year offer, like
I guess, just using them the best we can to
kind of beat teams up and go forward was incredible,

(51:54):
and I think you see it filtering in a wee
bit throughout how other teams are playing out, Like you
see how the Chiefs have kind of started to play
a webit They have maybe a wee bit more of
a balanced approach where they can kind of go to
that game if they need. And it's something that we're
trying to do as well, is that we don't just
want to be a one trick pony. You know, you
might have your strengths, but you know, being able to
go to it when you need and play away from

(52:16):
it when when when you don't. But no, I honestly
absolutely loved it as a kind of student of the
game and all that. It was awesome to kind of
see a different style and see it work as well
when a few people kind of doubted us as well.

Speaker 3 (52:27):
You touched on a little bit there last year, you know,
hugely physically physically dominant and directs. It's hard, but can
you pinpoint maybe what worked last year and maybe what
hasn't this year for the Blues?

Speaker 4 (52:41):
That's a great question.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
How long how long we got?

Speaker 4 (52:43):
Yeah? No, honestly, I think it's a lot of it. No,
it's a very tough one. It's a very tough one.

Speaker 5 (52:54):
You know, we won't make any excuses about the year,
but we have a lot of injuries and we've lost
a lot of close games. But potentially last year we
might have won. So I think it's kind of come
down to a lot of like small little moments within
within that, as I say, kind of touched on it before,
like our ruthlessness last.

Speaker 4 (53:10):
Year, we were we were very hungry. We were.

Speaker 5 (53:15):
Wanting to kind of get to that mountaintop, I guess,
and and you know, I think our conversion rate in
the twenty two was I can't remember what it was,
but it was it was pretty sharp. I think, you know,
we'd get down there and we'd be patient and we'd
come away with points. And it's potentially an area where
we haven't been as good this year. We had a
very strong mall last year as well that helped us

(53:36):
both up the field and in the twenty two, and
potentially haven't been able to use that as much as
we would like this year. And I think, as you
touched on potentially as well, we bit of last year
it was quite new, but I guess by the end
of the season team still knew we were going to
do it, but maybe this year they bit more clued
onto it. But there's a number of different factors and
I think, as you say, it's hasn't been as successful

(54:00):
for us of a year this year, But you know,
I think as I say, there's been a lot of
close games the Chiefs in Hamilton, the Crusaders and christ
here Brumbies at home holand Is down in Duned, and
I think they are all one or two points and
those are games that last year we won and everyone's
kind of singing our praises and for a number of
different reasons we haven't and now we're in this position.

Speaker 4 (54:22):
So it's it's a difficult question answer.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
Picking up on the coaching theme, leon Vern, did you
have Razer with Canterbury?

Speaker 4 (54:31):
No, I didn't.

Speaker 5 (54:31):
Even with Canterbury, I did an ITC, which is like
an interim training contract for an under twenty guy when
you're coming through. I think they're called NDCs, now I
did did. I think it's like a ten week training
season or training off season with the Crusaders. So I
did that in my when I was nineteen, I think,
and that was when raiser Jase Ryan's got a handsome,

(54:53):
real coach in the Crusaders. So was very fortunate through
that as well to get some obviously top tier coaching
obviously all all best coaches now, So yeah, that was
that was awesome and grew a lot through that as well.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
What was can you give us some that's about RAS's
first year is all black coach? What was your experience,
Like we hear a lot about you know, he's a character,
he's different, he loves theming. But what was your experience
of Humm as a coach and his year first year
with the Ablicks?

Speaker 4 (55:22):
It was awesome, incredible coach.

Speaker 5 (55:25):
All of them are like you see, you see why
they've been so successful because their rugby knowledge is incredible
and as you say, the way Raiser kind of themes
up as seasons and he just knows the kind of
right buttons to push to get the best out of players.
He's very personable and he you know, he's got great

(55:46):
assistance in great places, and everyone just kind of nails
their own role. You know, Razor does his part and
kind of oversees the whole thing, and then Scott Henson
does a great job with the attack, Tombody Elson does
a great job with the d Jason Holland with the
set piece, and then Jace Ryan, who's an incredible coach,
works bloody hard and he just you know, does an
amazing job with the fours. And as I say, you

(56:07):
can see why the Crusaders had such a dominant full
pack for a number of years and then you know
we still do. But a large part of their identity
was built by jas by Razor, by all of those guys.

Speaker 4 (56:19):
So yeah, it was. It was awesome when I learned
a lot.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Any themes you can share of us that resonated. I
talked to Reuben Love and he talked about ker Evans
and how there was a clip shown of Sherlock Holmes
and visualization breaking out of a cell and then that happening.
But yeah, any sort of themes that resonated with you

(56:44):
throughout the year, Oh.

Speaker 4 (56:46):
There was heaps. There was heaps.

Speaker 5 (56:49):
Yeah, I think a lot of it's quite in house,
but but yeah, obviously touched on it. But Kerry Carry
is amazing as well. A lot of the stuff he
does around We do mental skills work at least once
a week as a team, and then there will usually
be your own individual time as well, and he's been
messively helpful for me as well. And there's a number
of different techniques where it was visualization, whether it's learning

(57:09):
how to kind of I guess, not compact well, compact mentalized,
I guess, around making years and moving on from it and.

Speaker 4 (57:17):
All sorts of stuff.

Speaker 5 (57:18):
But yeah, as I say, you just we're just so
lucky in that environment that you're just surrounded by all
these different people in different fields that are all just experts,
and everyone's just kind of trying to nail their own role,
which I guess is the whole identity of the team,
you know, as everyone being experts in their own area
and just you know, you don't have to worry about
trying to do X, Y and Z or you're all

(57:39):
you're worrying about is naming your own own thing on
the field and letting everything else take care of itself.

Speaker 3 (57:45):
What about your your relationship with your with your mum
mostly was obviously in the all blacks. Is it uncomfortable?
Was it uncomfortable at first? And then you get used
to it? Did you call her mum? That's such a
unique dynamic, right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (57:58):
Honestly, it was a very unique dynamic.

Speaker 5 (58:00):
I was, Yeah, I was pretty apprehensive about it at first,
Like I when I got named, well, when I got
told I was coming as injury color last year, I
was up here in Auckland and I was going to
be away for three weeks. So I kind of flew
home that night for a couple of days, and Mum
was flying out the next day earlier than me, and

(58:20):
I kind of said, I didn't sit down any guidelines,
but I said, like, you know, like you just do
your own thing, like just treat me like any player, please,
And she's like, yeah, of course, of course, and said goodbye.
And I literally said that, I said, I'm saying goodbye
to he is my mum. For three weeks, I would
see you up there in a professional capacity. And she
was very good about it, because I imagine, like, you know,
I don't know what it's like to be appearent, but

(58:41):
I imagine your son telling you that probably isn't the
nicest thing to hear. But she was very good about it,
and the first kind of couple of weeks she was
she was very good. She kind of keepped a distance
and she might shoot me the odd texts like like
you know, keen to catch up with you, and I'd
kind of try and sneak grounds and.

Speaker 4 (58:59):
No one saw. It was very funny, like very quickly.

Speaker 5 (59:03):
Once I got to know a lot of the boys,
everyone would give me a lot of stick like I'd
start to say like his cat like ironically and the
voice of like, oh, come on mate, you know, and
then there's a couple of times I at me.

Speaker 4 (59:14):
There was one time where I think it was about
my third week in camp.

Speaker 5 (59:19):
We were playing England up here, staying at the park
Hide and I had had a promo or something, and
I come in late for dinner and she was sitting
down having dinner and I thought, I'll sit down here
to dinner with it. You know, it'd be quite nice
and no one else is around, and you know, like thinking,
I'm not a sneaged ay window that I can get
away with it. And then it must have just been
as one of the message windows was ending and about

(59:41):
fifteen of the boys all roll through, and everyone just
giving me a tiny little bit. You know, everyone's got
something to say about it. Oh isn't this cute? I
look at you two, and I was just like, but now,
once once I got kind of I guess comfortable in
the environment and got to know everyone was.

Speaker 4 (59:57):
I was happy and it was. It was awesome.

Speaker 5 (59:59):
She was very good about it, and the boys were
awesome about it. But you know, it's kind of initial stage.
We're essentially starting a new job with trying to make
new mates and stuff, and you got your mum looking
over your shoulder that I was really I'm sure of that.

Speaker 4 (01:00:09):
But no, it was good Sam.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
You just resigned with New Zealand Rugby and the Blues
and obviously staying with Canterbury as well for another three
years through twenty eight. Was it a fairly straightforward decision?

Speaker 4 (01:00:19):
Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:00:22):
We actually one of my fat mates asked me this
last night and I just, you know, like it's I'm
exactly where I want to be, doing exactly what I
want to do. As I say, it was a big
decision to come up to Auckland five years ago, but
since then I've never looked back. They've been awesome, treated
me so good as Liam She had been from christ
which thought, you know, the reception I got up here

(01:00:44):
might be a bit mixed, but everyone's just been incredible,
welcoming with open arms, giving me great opportunities, helped me
out off the field, on the field and in terms
of playing career. Like I'm twenty four, I love live
in New Zealand. I love living in New Zealand, I
love living in Auckland, love being able to go back

(01:01:04):
to Krash each MPC, And yeah, it was it was
a no brainer.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
As you mentioned earlier, so round about late July potentially
for a return to the park if you alloyed yourself,
maybe thought of when hopefully you might be able to
get back in the All Blacks environment, if you get
a few games under your belt or the direct distance.

Speaker 4 (01:01:22):
Yeah, it's obviously the goal, but I think.

Speaker 5 (01:01:26):
You know, I know that I haven't played a game
in eight months or whatever, so you know, I know
that I've got to get some game time onder my
belt first and that's going to be through the NPC,
and I'm really excited about that. And obviously it's very unfortunate.
And you know, at the start of the year I
set myself some goals and have had to tweak them
because of the injury. And you know, I'm at peace

(01:01:48):
with whatever. I just I'm just keen to get out
and just play footy to be fair, and that it'll
be with Canterbury to start, and whether that looks different
down the line. I'm not sure, but I'd say that
it's like you're going to be MPC for me this year,
which is which is very exciting. Been with Kenneby for
about six years now, I think, and haven't I haven't
won a championship, so it's a pretty messive goal. And

(01:02:11):
I've got a lot of really good mates down there
that I've kind of come through the academy with, played
rugby at school against and Worth, so it's a team
I love playing for and can't wait to get down there.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
What about away from the field, Yeah, you have a
bit of balance lifestyle. What do you how do you
sort of balance it because it is very intense rugby,
you know, you can can be all consuming and you're
still a young man. It's important to have other other interests.

Speaker 5 (01:02:39):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely in terms of hobbies and stuff.
I love golf, love my golf. I'm not very good
at it, but as they love it. You've got a
good crew up here and down to christ who like
to get out. So that's actually been quite a tough
part of the injury as I haven't been able a
goal for either, so kind of my two kind of
main loves my goal for my footy. You've been taken away,

(01:03:00):
so it's been difficult. But no, and other than that,
I love very social, Like I love spending time with
my friends, and that's an awesome part about christ each
Orklane as well as I've got friends and family and
christ Chach and a lot of friends up here as well,
so we got to kind of bounce between the two
is awesome. And even like through this injury period, that's
that's kind of a good time to focus a bit

(01:03:22):
more on that. You know, you get a wee bit
more time to you know, your weekends are is busy
with games and stuff, so you can go out for
lunch or see people, or go for some trips away
or whatever. And I guess I've loved that aspect of
the injury. I guess it's probably the only shining light maybe,
But yeah, like I've moved in with some mates from

(01:03:44):
school and a flat up here for this kind of
six months as opposed to living with rugby players that
I've done for the last four years since I've been
up here. So yeah, I guess he's the injury is
a bit of an opportunity to get away from rugby
webit so that when I come back, I'm fresh excited
to kind of get stuck in for hopefully a decent
stint of injury free footy.

Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
And obviously your heart and even everything's a vista in
the Blues. But who do you say he is odds
on favorite? So I used to win sleeper this year.

Speaker 5 (01:04:13):
Well, I mean we're not out of it yet, We're
still Yeah, so I think I honestly reckon, Like we've
showed in that game in Hamilton and that game in
christ Hitch. You know, we were within a point or
two of beating the two top teams in the comp
is on the table. So I think we obviously now

(01:04:36):
it's a we've been out of a control, but if
we beat the Tars and a few other results go away,
we sneak and I think we're going to be very dangerous.
But outside of us, I think, you know, it's the
Crusaders and Chiefs says it has kind of been the
last two, three, four, whatever it is years. You know
that game down there a couple of weeks ago was
awesome and the Chiefs probably showed that the potential of

(01:04:58):
the team to beat you know, they've gone to the
final the last two years and their own haven't quite
got over the two year in our own haven't quite
got over the humps, So you know they've got that
fuel I guess to try and.

Speaker 4 (01:05:12):
You know, go one more, I guess.

Speaker 5 (01:05:14):
But then obviously you got the Crusaders coming off a
down season last year as well, so based on form
this year, I think those two the teams to beat,
but I wouldn't ride us off just yet.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
And you said you're a big student of the game,
do you do you see any big shifts or evolutions
over the last couple of years, both, I guess personally
and stylistically in terms of teams.

Speaker 5 (01:05:37):
I think as I kind of touched on around that
kind of the approach we kind of took to the
game last year around not as much structure, kind of
more one off or even know, zero pass plays. As
I say, it's quite a European style. And you know,
we're in New Zealand have often like to kind of
back our skill set. Obviously we've got big players, but

(01:06:00):
compared to South Africa and France, we're potentially not the
most physically or most biggest teams, I guess. But yeah,
I guess in Super Rugby. That's probably been the approach
I've noticed. I know Mardy Burke's the attack coach with
the Chiefs. He tried to implement a bit of that
kind of game playing game style with us at Kennerby

(01:06:21):
last year, and I guess he's adopted that with the Chiefs.
And as I say, it's being from coming through the
academy and everything, you're always taught to use your skill. See,
not that we're not in this style, but yeah, it's
definitely definitely a different style and I think especially potentially
with those new kicking laws as well.

Speaker 4 (01:06:42):
Don't know if I'm the biggest fan of them.

Speaker 5 (01:06:44):
It's probably something we've struggled to weave it with at
the Blues this year as well. Around not being able
to protect the catcher. You see teams kicking a lot more,
you know, not over playing in their own halves as much.
You know, you kind of won two three rucks in
the middle of the field and if you're not going
anywhere getting to a kick, because it's essentially if the
kick's good, it's a fifty to fifty because you're you know,

(01:07:05):
the attacking team are the defending teams always trying to
catch it where the attacking teams just coming and trying
to tap it back. And as I say, it's not
a role I'm a big fan of, just for a
number of reasons. But you know, it's, as I say,
it's the way it is, and teams have had to
adapt to that, whether it be around the pressure they're
putting on the kicker or work under the high ball

(01:07:28):
and all that kind of things. As I say, probably
something we haven't adapted too well. With the Blues in
the weekend you saw a wee bit of it trying
to tap it back and people picking it up. It
just kind of creates a bit of chaos. So I
guess that's probably something you're talking about with that style
of play. Yeah, but those are probably the two things
I've noticed this year.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
We'll see. I really appreciate you coming in for rugby
ric mist like with the rehabit the next couple months
and looking forward to seeing you back on the park
in Julyish.

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
Appreciate it, Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
Interesting for Sam Dearry and very much looking forward to
seeing him back out in the park for the Mighty
Canterbury in a bit of NPC preseason and who knows
maybe back in the All Black set at some point
later in the year.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
Smart man, doesn't he given the Crusaders the side step?

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
Well, I didn't realize that he wasn't even a Crusaders fan.
I went to supported from from way back, so my
respector has grown. No, he's a top blokers sam Darien,
as I say, looking forward to seeing him out on
the park again soon. That'll do us right the direct
sir with Habit Health taking all your aches and pains
from support and work. Thanks to Last and Bars English.
We will see you next week.

Speaker 1 (01:08:29):
For more from News Talks ed B listen live on
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