Rugby Direct - Episode 168

This week on Rugby Direct, it's a bumper edition of the podcast as Elliott Smith and Liam Napier wrap the first All Blacks squad of 2025 - who's in and who's out - and who should be there that isn't. Rugby Direct speaks to All Blacks head coach Scott Robertson and forwards coach Jason Ryan to dive into the key selections and their plans for 2025.

We also review the Super Rugby final as the Crusaders hoisted the trophy again and ask why the Chiefs are unable to convert their bridesmaid tag into a title.

And we look at former coach Ian Foster's new book - and Liam responds to being written about in the autobiography.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News TALKSTB. Follow this
and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio, Straight Down the.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Middle, Drum Score, Try.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Sucket inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliott Smith and Leam Napier powered by News Talks EDB.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Habit Health sackling all
your aches and pains from sports and work. You're intrepid
rugby journalists. Heroes are back for another week to review
not only the Super Rugby Final, we'll get to that
a bit later in the podcast, but the All Blacks
thirty three man squad to face Franz Elligott Smith with

(00:58):
me as always Liam Napier. We have spent the day
in Taranaki, beautiful part of the world Coastal Rugby Club
and on the podcast we'll hear from Scott Robertson and
Albert Sword's Jackson and Ryan to explain some of the
selections that they're made for the series. But Liam, welcome
to the podcast as always, and she's been a big.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Old day as indeed, great to get out in the
community Taranaki, seeing them great airports and a great great
regnod club of Barrett Country.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
It is a great airport. Actually was very impressed by
the new Plymouth Airport. So a wonderful place to while
away a few hours finding some copy. But let's get
straight into it, and here from All Blacks coach Scott
Robertson a chat that you and I spoke with him
at the All Black squad naming and he explained some
of the key selections. So let's dive into that now.

(01:48):
Scott Robertson for still All Black Scott of twenty twenty five.
How good to have this one named and how tricky
were the selections?

Speaker 4 (01:55):
He good to be here, good to be a coastal,
awesome spot, fiber of our country. You know, clat Rugby
and some great men and woman out of here you
Coogamvi Kenjack. You know she's would be in the world
and it's good to come back here. And team selection
always tough. You know, I've got some great players competing hard,

(02:18):
so you're going to make some calls. Some great parts
are going to miss out. But yeah, we're really pleased
with the balance and the opportunities we've given some new parts.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
What were the toughest area loose forward sort of looking
at the squad seems like a really tough area that
you felt the squeeze the.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
Yeah yeah, loose forwards, midfield backs. As you can see.
The good thing is about the versatility of the players.
So I'm looking pack two or three positions and being
in New Zealand, I want to make a very clear
point that we're going to bring a couple of pars
in and out. You know, we've got a couple of
injury covers at the moment, but coming and train we
found out the best we've got out of our plas

(02:51):
is set them up by having a week or so
until then, get to have a look at them, prepare
them so they're ready for test footy. And obviously we're
going to go from thirty three to thirty six and
then we're going to get injuries to you know, playing
test series at homes critical for us in their depth.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Super secrete you what stood out about the season?

Speaker 5 (03:10):
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (03:11):
And I had a pretty leading question there.

Speaker 4 (03:13):
Elio the I picked himself in regards with forum consistency.
He's a mature, sure rugby part and sure mature man.
What we asked for him and how we a lot
of the self control gets required to play at Test
forty and he showed.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
It just five loose forwards. I guess that sort of
stood out eighteen fifteen's but what was the thinking with
the loose forwards?

Speaker 4 (03:37):
Yeah, loose fords. We're going to have a second row
cover the loose fords positioned, so cover six and then
gives us the balance of it that we can play
the all the players over the three matt series. That's
our playing around that in that area. Obviously, Fabian's definitely
a lock well six foot nine and ten of them,

(03:58):
and and then we can we just start to look
and like I said, to add to the squad when
the Rugby Championship comes along.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
And the theme with the loose fords seems to be
strong on both sides of the ball and got quite
a lot of power there is that for.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
Yeah, obviously, you know we've got some informed players and
the loose forwards the balance of the both play a
couple of positions. But I know it's a you know,
some a penny to talk about him, he said, moments
through the year has been been awesome and we're going
to get the best out of them. We feel like

(04:34):
he's maturing nicely.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
The loose head selection with offer out. What was it
about Olin Norris at one him selection?

Speaker 4 (04:41):
Look Jason's you know, obviously we'll cover a little bit
more detail. But big body being really really consistent, good
chance for us to look at him in the series.
You know, build depth in that area. There's always, you know,
always the question you go, now do you hold off
and give someone an older player a correct But we're
going to give Olio go. He's he's worked hardly, strong,

(05:06):
he's good scommager, so and he can carry all those
things that we look forward for in a play like
him here.

Speaker 5 (05:11):
You can send them with tough and our white.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
His ability to get the ball, is that something that
stood out to you?

Speaker 4 (05:16):
Yes, you know the Mothi's he's a special player in it.
It's so much power in him. It's consistently over the
whole year, really impressed us. You know, his skill set,
his defensive reads got better and better, and he's so

(05:38):
resilient and tough. He compliments the midfield.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
I don't know you've named as in midfield. Do you
see him as a winger potentially as well, someone that
can play both positions, maybe off the bench. Yeah, a
little bit of.

Speaker 4 (05:51):
A utility factor in him, which is great. You know
all players again, you look, we've you know, we've got
a few midfielders in there, but someone can play fallback
and covers can cover wing. And that's what we've done,
you know, like I've une around thirty five, like I've
brained it back to thirty three. We even thought about
thirty two that we had last year. But just to
give you guys exposure before you know, we get on

(06:13):
the road, some tough calls.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Ethan Black Edder and David Havilli just you know, had
tough for those fine calls that you've obviously get.

Speaker 4 (06:19):
To make, really tough, really good men. Firstly, not much
in the calls. They're being consistent and we just picked
this team for now and there's conversations that we had
for them. You know, they still stay in it and
we get to have a look at these players and
small margins.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Yeah, Brodie McAllister as well obviously stand out for the
Chiefs this year. His edged George Bell was it just
a form selection?

Speaker 4 (06:50):
You know, George has only played fearful games and Brodie's
played a lot of good foot. He started well, finished well.
All his core roles are really really strong, and it
just gives us an opportunity build a little bit of
depth at hooker that put.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
In the cart before the horse. I know you're looking
at finishing games this year. Has it coming to your
selection thinking with guys like Tavera Tabanawa is usually coming
off the bench of twenty months ago, maybe a dupless
Is that a factor and selection when you're looking at
a squad.

Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yes, yeah, for sure. We know. You know we were
at last year. You're clearing the stats as I am,
as you know the opportunity we created, but we didn't
quite get to finish and you know the twenty three
wins test matches in most rugby games, So yeah, there
was discussion around there.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
So Scott Robertson, they're talking about some of his key
selections for the series. I'm sure everyone's seen the squad
by now, but Liam, what stands out to you from
the thirty three players he's named.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
I think there's some big surprises, aren't there. I don't
think anyone predicted that Ethan Blackheader would miss out. I
think Tavia Tavanawa is a surprise inclusion. There was good
early in the year, but perhaps faded away bit late
and then the Highlanders weren't involved in the playoffs, so
maybe he faded from view a little bit and Brody
McAllister don't recall anyone predicting his inclusion. I was aware

(08:17):
that I suffer Moore would be out with that hamstring injury,
but the natural inclination is to think they'll stick with
George Bell. So that's a bit of a top line.
And then I think the balance of the squad, as
well as surprising six midfielders five loose forwards in eighteen
fifteen split, it does feel a wee bit skewed, particularly

(08:38):
in that midfield. Too many midfielders. But what I do
like is this is a bold selection and it does
feel like now in the second year of Scott Robertson,
if you're gonna find out about some players, do it
and don't wait. So I was critical last year of

(09:00):
the All Blacks for being ultra conservative, and while they
had ten rookies, I stand by that. I think a
number of people should have been given more chance and
they could have been a lot braver, and I think
coming into their second year you're starting to see a
wee bit more of that. Certainly on the face of it,
with this squad.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
It feels like a squad and again I've probably same
issues with you around the balance of it, but a
squad that right, this is the way we want to play.
We want to get over the game line. We want
to be explosive, We want to attack teams on both
sides of the ball. We want to be a little
bit more ruthless. And I think the selections, the headline

(09:38):
selections lend themselves to that. Ta Tavatava No, why very
very good over the ball, explosive in nature has been impressive. Look,
we didn't select them in our squads last week when
we went through because I similar to you though maybe
faded towards the end of the season. But what the
All Blacks have said is that they think he was
consistent and they're willing to obviously upskill him and get

(10:00):
him into that All Blacks environment and trust that they
can add to his game. There another player that is
explosive on both sides of the ball. He gets a
lot of credit for the turnovers he makes, but what
it doesn't get a lot of credit for, perhaps should
is his ability with born hand He's very very good
with his ball handling skills. Really like that about his game.

(10:20):
So I think that's where you look and go, Okay,
well they're weighing up Blackheader and maybe Heavili in the midfield,
they're gone with Ta ta Nawa and care Feet, and yeah,
there's some other players in the mixture as well, But
these are selections that are not risky necessarily, but they
are more explosive selections than perhaps the others that are weighing.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
Up all the people with points of difference. And I
think we've touched on the fact that when you look
at guys like Luke Jacobson, Dalton, Papa Lee and Ethan Blackheader,
very similar players, strong defensively and without painting them with
all the same brush, it's about, Yeah, like you touched on,
what does this All Black team want to be? And

(11:03):
it is a power game. It is that destructive ball carrying,
having the point a difference and putting the cart before
the hawks a wee bit. But last year the All
Blacks lost the four tests they lost, they led at halftime,
and so their finishing is a major focus this year.
And when you look ahead to the potential composition of
the bench and injecting guys like Tavatavanawa potentially Kaife to

(11:28):
come on and you know, bring their points a difference,
bring those turnovers, that explosiveness. I really like the way
some of these selections are tailored and the thinking that
they've got. I think we just if we isolate a
few of these selections. Ethan Blackhead in particular, he didn't
play a lot of rugby this year, is very injury prone,

(11:51):
is very strong defensively, is always among the top tacklers
and we saw that in the back end of the
Crusaders campaign, but does an awful lot with ball in hand,
and that I think has cost him. His post contact
meters are very limited and for the prototype of what
the All Blacks want from a particular six, and they

(12:14):
do see Blackheader promptly as a specialist six six because
he doesn't have that speed off the back of the scrum. Yes,
he's played a bit of open side, so that that
hurts him as well. What's your big takeaway from the
black Header?

Speaker 2 (12:26):
No, my takeaway is exactly the same thing as that
he is hamstrung by the fact that he probably is
only seen as a blowdside in this All Blacks environment.
I know he started tests, not many, but a few
at open side and twenty twenty one. But with the
player profile that they want out of that loose Ford trio,

(12:46):
there just isn't room for Ethan Blackhader, given he can't
cover eight and it was probably a close decision between
him and Sammopenny fen Now, but if you're taking in
one six, they've gone with Fenaw who offers that explosiveness.
I thought Fenw didn't have the greatest of games against
the Blues, was a little bit better against the Brumbies

(13:07):
the week prior, fairly anonymous in the final in all honesty,
but they've gone with the player that again we use
this word explosiveness, this is the kind of player. This
is a statement selection that this is the way we
want to play. I can see Ethan Blackhead are potentially
getting back into the All Blacks environment. They're going to
have to expand the squad to thirty six for the
Rugby Championship, and maybe he comes back in when you've

(13:29):
got games against South Africa where perhaps the profile of
the opponent there is a little bit more similar and
you want to have a player that's going to tackle
all day. So I don't know that necessarily it's Ethan
Blackheads swan song in the All Blacks environment. He is
off contract, I think is an interesting thing around that,
So he hasn't really signed with New Zealand rugby's my knowledge,

(13:50):
excuse me, beyond this year, So that is interesting in itself,
but yeah, I think he's certainly hamstrung by that.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
The other points to note here is injuries have played
a part. Peter Lukeye, who was very good at the
back end of last year for the All Blacks off
the bench against France, didn't really kick on as you
would expect him to do with the Hurricanes this year.
He is not considered because of a knee injury. Simon
Parker was the other one that's been on the All
Blacks radar. Maybe if he was fits with that ankle injury,

(14:22):
he would have pushed some a penny female and you
touched on there with Ethan Blackett. Do you see a
path back to him? Well, what about Dalton papal Lee.
Well this is interesting, isn't it. And I don't think
either of us had him in our squads last week
And it's not luck he's done anything wrong necessarily for
the Blues this season, but he hasn't stood out and

(14:47):
it seems to me that they are going away from
you know, he was the heir apparent to Sam Kaine.
He was the ear apparent Sam Kane for a number
of years and when Sam Kine had the injuries and
various things, Don and Papa Lee slotted in there. But
I just think he's been just a little bit too
quiet over the last year or so. Faded out of

(15:08):
the selector's plans last year, then got injured, didn't go
on the end of the two That probably hamstrung his
chance to impress the and again the Blues. When you
had an up and down season and you're on the
cusp of All Black selection as an incumbent and you're
not standing out, you're probably one of those players that
are on the chopping block. So I'm not saying he

(15:29):
had a terrible season, but he didn't certainly stand out
for the Blues. Now his future is very, very interesting
because again he was painted as the air apparent to
Sam Kaine, and now all of a sudden he's not
in the squad and doesn't appear to be the open
side flank or the kind of open side blankert flanker
that the All Blacks are looking for.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
What did you make of that?

Speaker 3 (15:47):
It's not a surprise, and that probably speaks to how
far he has fallen in the pecking order. And I
mentioned last week that I think the Blue style hasn't
helped him because he does have that ability to play wide.
He is a good ball carrier, but the Blue style
that tight combative to Reck's game doesn't give him those opportunities.

(16:11):
So I think that that has hurt. But if caref
he takes his chance, and there is every suggestion he
will because he's been waiting so long. It was what
twenty twenty and then you kind of covid years here
twenty twenty two. I think he's spent time in the
all Blacks environment but has gone away matured and you
can see how hungry he has been, how much he

(16:34):
is matured with those leadership roles with Wellington and the Hurricanes.
So I just can't see him blowing that opportunity. So
you've got Ardie Carreefee, and then you've also got guys
like Christian Leo Wadia who's not a seven admittedly, but
he's in as injury cover for Luke Jacobson from his
head knock So and Peter Lacai on the fringe as well.

(16:58):
So the roadback for PAPALLII looks looks very congested.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, and look, he's got a big NBC season. He's
now going to have to impress with County's Monaco and
you look, I don't I'm not going to all matter
come afielbacks. But as you say that, that path is
really really tough for him in a congested, loose forward trio. Again,
they've only taken five for the series. They clearly want

(17:22):
to see a lot of these players. That's something what
probably worth touching on as well, is that they could
have named thirty five. That was the number that was
given when they sent out their media advisory saying hey
we're going to name a thirty five men squad. They've
only named thirty three. And to me, that also that
they want to see a lot of these players in
action and don't want them holding tackle bags for three
weeks and not getting opportunities.

Speaker 3 (17:42):
That's right, and that was the case last July as well.
Give everyone opportunities and no point picking them in the
squad and not giving them a chance to make their
debuts to prove themselves. And I think it's also worth
noting that this is a squad for July. Yep, and
there'll be thirty six for the Rugby Championship and that
will change. There'll be injuries, there'll be different form permutations,

(18:07):
and you've got other people coming back like least to
find Anookho and the backs who I assume will be
pretty much straight inclusion given where he left and is
impact with too long, so there will be further change.
This is just for July, but on the face of it,
it's a very intriguing squad and we haven't even you know,

(18:30):
touched on the front row with the guys like Oli
Norris coming.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
Well, yeah, let's touch on that. Then we knew there
had to be a loose hid prop. Olie Norris was
a player that we both packed last week. Then George
Bell went out and had a very very good back
twenty twenty five minutes of the Super Rugby Final and
I thought he was excellent. But Oli Norris is the
younger player they've chosen to go with him, and you
can't say he's not worthy of his opportunity because even

(18:54):
when he got penalized a little bit, you know on
the weekend against Fletcher Newell, you're coming up against a
very very good tight head prop. I think there's a
lot to like about Oli Norris.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
There is very dynamic mobile another in the Passilio Tossi
Mole not to the same build, but a former loose
forward so brings that real mobility around the park. I
think it is a concern that he got exposed to
that degree, but he's not alone. You know, a prop
doesn't get isolated. So and the chief scrum in general

(19:25):
got capitulated, didn't it against the Crusaders, particularly in that
second half. So a bit of work to do there,
I think. But I like again that the All Blacks
are having a look at some of these guys. They
know what they're going to get from George Bauer, from
Ethan Blacket, from Dalton Pope Lee, from David Heavily, but
they don't from Fabian Hollands, Norris McAllister and these other rookies.

(19:51):
So I like that that they're trying to find some
things out and they're being a bit more brave and bold.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Brady McAllister another one selected. You know, as you said
at the top, genuine bolter. You know it's a word
that's overused, but if you're going to pack bolts out
of it Scott as a bolter because none would have
picked him. George Bell seemed like the obvious cab off
the ring, but mcalson moved to the Chiefs in the
off season has got more game time this year, even

(20:17):
though that's pretty congested at the Chiefs with Bradley Slater
there and as well in SAMASONI takeyaha, but he stood
out and he's got his opportunity. I thought he and
losing if it was pretty good on the weekend.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
Made a real impact, probably the best, certainly the best
performer off the bench for the Chiefs. It was. I
remember him ripping one in a tackle and just being
amongst everything and it's easy to forget at the back
end of the super rugby the front end. He started
possibly the majority of the of the chief season at

(20:49):
hooker and that's the sort of impact he made. And
look good on him for moving to the Chiefs and
taking an opportunity. And I think I like the selection
more than George Bell because the All Blacks when they
picked George Bell last year over Eckland or Ricky Ricky Talley,
it was they were very upfront about that being investing

(21:10):
in youth, but then they didn't trust him. He was
on the bench for matches and he come on against
Ireland for one minute.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
And George Bell needs rugby. I think he didn't play
a lot during the NPCE that sorry, super Ruggy, because
he was injured for a lot of it. We saw
Moan and new have a very good season for the
Crusaders and come in and impress the air. You know,
he struggled for minutes because he was injured for you know,
so long. He just needs rugby under his belt. And
whether that's with the NPC, I'm not sure if he's
got any moldy blood in him, whether he go and

(21:37):
play for the New Zealand MALDI, but get some game time,
get some regular game time under his belt and maybe
while the time you get to the end of the year,
there is a decision for the end of year tour
as to whether you go ol Moore, if he's fit
ready to go by then McAllister or George Bell and
you know, and I'll include the others on there, and
Taylor and and and Takeyaha in it. There is genuine

(21:58):
decision to be made by the end of the year
when you have had those hookers get more rugby under
their belt.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Yeah, one hundred percent. And the all Blacks overall philosophy here,
particularly with these new guys, is they want to be
four deep in every position. So it comes back to
again the fact that they know a lot about these
other guys. Well, let's get these rookies in and then
when injuries strike, they're not coming in cold. So that's
part of it. It's broadened it out a little bit

(22:24):
more to positions. Outside backs. Yep, No Ammonia Naraua. He's
in there as injury cover for anton Lena Brown, who
it sounds like could have actually played for the Chiefs
at the weekend but didn't, so you would think he's
not far away. No Leroy Carter who had a good
season but didn't play well in a poor performance from

(22:45):
the Chiefs in the final. No Chefihaki, who was called
in last year very surprising from outside the squad as
a training partner. So very much same same In the
back three, Ruben loves there as a wing fallback and
first five option. Mark Talia not selected because he's going
to Japan. What do you make of the back three?

Speaker 2 (23:05):
It does feel same same, I don't Yeah, I mean Seevarese.
I didn't pick him in my squad last week. I
thought he had a very good Super Rugby final. I
thought he was very very good for the Crusaders on
the night and seems to have a wee bit of
his paceback in the game, which he was probably lacking
last year. Now what he's done to do that, I'm

(23:25):
not entirely sure, but we saw him get run down
against Louis belle Bid in the French Test. I kind
of felt that his time for a changing at the
guard in the Wings, but clearly the All Blacks don't
at this point. Cadob Clark didn't score a try during
Super Rugby, not entirely his fault. That game plan probably
doesn't suit the Wings, although mrke Clear managed to bag

(23:47):
a few. It does feel same same would have like
see Cadob Pung guitar have a longer Super Rugby season
with the Highlanders rather than get injured. That was unfortunate
timing if he was able to push his case a
little bit more. This is Jackie Brod of MA to
UK Neepkins as well, but very much a fullback option
rather than a wing, so it does feel same. Would

(24:09):
have liked to see one of them that Leroy Carter
probably get in the mix and and push their claims
a little bit further. What did you make of the
outside backs?

Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah, I think the chief swingers are hard done by.
They were the form finishers all year. That changed to
a degree when the final squeeze came on, when the
weather changed and the pressure came on and there wasn't
that same space and room to move, and the high
ball was a lot more prevalent. I thought Lero o'cartera

(24:39):
in particular was a wee bit exposed there at the
weekends with the Crusaders barrows and the way they targeted
the Chiefs backfield had a lot of success there. I
would have liked to have seen Carter included because he
has a point of difference again with just with that
out and outpace and amani At I'm a big fan

(25:00):
of very silky player, got all the skills, a pretty
good kicking game, sound under the high ball, highly involved,
so I would like to see him get a crack.
I guess you've got flexibility there with Tavatavanahwa, but I
don't he doesn't have the pace to be an international wing,
so I think midfield is his best position. You have

(25:22):
flexibility with Rikowane potentially pushing out to the wing, and
I think we will see We did see a bit
of that last year. I think we will see a
little bit more of that. So there is versatility within
that squad. But yeah, I'm with you on Savories. I
don't see him being in the World Cup squad.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah. Wing is very much a form, always traditionally been
a form selection for the al bleckxing, and you have
had long term winners Palette, Wilson, Lombu, you know, apart
from his illness, et cetera. But more recently it's trended
towards the hot hand. You know, why, sucking a holder
for a period of time, Julian Sava for a period

(26:04):
of time, Ema Scudder, you know, probably the biggest example
of that, George Bridge. You know, some of those players
have cycled through a lot of wingers in recent times
and it kind of felt like maybe the key should
have been handed over a little bit. But to the
extent that Carter and Nutowa played good seasons, they weren't
banging down the door necessarily either, and so they've gone

(26:26):
with the tried and true. And I guess now for
someone like Sevie Reese who has been selected and maybe
didn't have the greatest of all black seasons last year
started strongly and faded, you know, some big questions come
to him when he gets his opportunities in some point
in this French series.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, particularly as a wing right, you're always looking over
your shoulder because New Zealand is generally blessed with good
outside backs and lessifying a nook who is another example
of somebody who hears that versatility value, a versatility within
a squad. Yeah, I wanted to touch on the first
fives as well. Reuben Love is the third choice ten

(27:04):
and the squads. Stephen Peter Fetter was listed as unavailable,
so least on the Raider barely played for the Blues
this year because of that calf injury. Should we be
concerned about the depth of New Zealand rugby at ten?

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yes, I think we should be. Bot and Barratt will
start the first testing in Eden. You would suspect Damian
mckinsy is going to get some opportunities there as well
this year. To be honest, I think lacking, you know,
a real game driver that is going to take you

(27:42):
into the twenty twenty seven World Cup.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
I don't think room Love is ready to not ready
to start.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Jacob not ready to start a test ten Rivers, Rahara
not ready to start a test at ten Taha Kim
looks promising for the Crusaders, then got injured. Not ready
to start, you know. So there's some promising players there,
and Bart and Damie Kinsey have done a good job
for the All Black silvery number of years.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
And you do have Riching Mooree coming back next year.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
If he comes back.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
Let's look at the product line, right, Yeah, these are
not stop gap measures, but these are aging first fives.
And McKenzie, to be fair, has signed on to twenty
twenty nine. I think it is so he's going to
be around a long time, but there's still questions about
his ability to command and direct the game, not just
at test level but as.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Of say, yeah, we'll get into some of those.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
Back end of super rugby when the pressure comes on.
So these contenders coming through, I think there's a lot
of work to do.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, and I think Boden Barrett has got a big
opportunity to take the position by the scruff of the
neck because we saw last year that the All Blacks
gave Damien McKenzie chances and then after that letters low
in Sydney where it all turned to shit after a
very very strong start that they went cold on him.
He came back in and started that Test against Ireland.

(28:58):
It was very very good that night and the All
Black's best. But I think Boden Barret's got the opportunity
first and foremost, and for me, he's got the opportunity
to signal and the first two tests whatever he starts
in this July window that I am the All Blacks
ten at the Rugby World Cup in twenty twenty seven
and we don't need rich and wanting to come back.
He might come back, but we don't need him. That's
the kind of message that he's got the possibility to see.

(29:20):
Now whether he takes it, there's another matter entirely. But
I think you know, Boden Barrett to me strikes me
as the player that has the ability to more so
to transform his game into that traditional ten type archetype.
As his career goes on, he can't take on the
line as much as he used to, hasn't got that
out and outpace that he used to because he's aged.
That happens to everyone, but to me, I think he's

(29:41):
got the ability in his game to adapt to that.
What you need out of a ten a game driver,
and we need to see it from Bode Barrett.

Speaker 3 (29:49):
Yeah, I'm with you. I don't think there's any choice
right now that Boden is the first choice number ten.
But the all blocks are one injury away from Ruben
Love potentially playing a significant role at first five, and
for me that's a concern. Ruben only played what four

(30:09):
games for the Canes at ten this year, doesn't have
a lot of experience, has a lot of potential, but
has a lot of work to do, so I think
that's one area of concern depth wise, I also wanted
to touch on Quinte Pie big return. Yeah, what's it
been three years?

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Three years since it was Marvel Stadium. I think it
was twenty twenty two when Darcy Swain took a liking
to Quinn's league. You know, somewhere one point I thought,
is it going to happen again for Quinte Pie? This
year it showed that it is going to happen again
and he's real and whether it's taken him two plus
years to get the confidence back in the league and

(30:48):
be ready to play the kind of role that got
him into the All Blacks in the first place. I
don't know, but boy am I glad to see him
there because he's that kind of twelve that can get
you gain line, as we talked about at the top,
get you over the advantage line, and set you up
on attack. He's the kind of twelve that the All
Blacks really really need. Jordi barrettsy incumbent twelve. So it's
going to be a fascinating we selection mix because Quintepie

(31:10):
can play thirteen. Hasn't done a lot of it in
recent times for either the Chiefs. He's played a bit
on the wing, but in general, it is just good
to see quinte Pie back and playing at the top
of his game again.

Speaker 3 (31:22):
Quintepie is a guy that has shown obvious, obvious resilience
to come back from that horrific knee injury. He's a
guy that now maybe you always but maybe now more so,
knows his game, knows his strengths and plays to them.
He is very physical you touched on that ball, carrying ability,
punch over the game line, and he hits hard, particularly

(31:43):
particularly if you're running directly at him. So he's also
added some finest skills to his game with a kicking
ability in recent times, so fully deserving of his selection there.
But yeah, the All Blacks do have too many twelves.
Quinte Pier, Jordie Barrett's Tavetavnawa you would class as a

(32:03):
twelve and Antonina Brown that's four. Anton can very seamlessly
play second and center. But there's four second fives in
that squad. That that's too many, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (32:14):
It is too many? Interesting balance given they've gone for
so many midfielders is which I didn't necessarily pick Billy Procton,
Rico Yuanni, two very good thirteens. It's gonna be interesting
to see what happens in regards to that. But they
haven't explored any further depth beyond that and the balance

(32:34):
of the squad. I mean, who's the next thirteen that
could possibly come through? Is it someone that Brandon Enmoor
gets back in the mix.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
Well, Anton's can player as well, so you've got three there. Well.
The other one we haven't touched on is Faban Hollands. Yeah.
The first Netherlands born All Black. What an amazing story.
A guy that dreamed a dream and made it a reality.
Came to christ Church six months scholarship, went to Fash

(33:00):
Boys High School, saw the Light, went to Dunedin. Has
put an immense amount of work into his game and
boy is here a big human and from all accounts,
the way he came into that all black environment as
a training partner of the back end of last year,
there's every indication that he is gonna not take Test
rugby by storm, but certainly hit the ground running.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
Absolutely and deserving of his opportunity. He's been very very
good for the Honds in Super rugby this year and
I think he has a bit of Brodie Retallic about him,
and whether he realizes that potential is another matter entirely.
But he's got that body profile of a Brodie retallic
and very very good with ball in hands, good defensively,

(33:47):
will hit anything that moves. Really like this selection and
it's gonna be fascinating to see how they integrate him
into All Blacks twenty three. They've got Patrick three plot,
They've got Fabian Horn, They've got two po VII who
had an excellent All Blacks year last year and they've
got the Captain Scott Barrett. It's an interesting juggling act
and one of those locks won't be Fabian Horned, won't
be Patrick three. Plot two is you want to cover

(34:09):
in the loose forwards as well? Robertson said today.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
Yeah, that's an interesting point, isn't it. So VII and
Scott Barrett have both started tests at blindside and that's
why they felt comfortable to go with five loose forwards.
But it also does show that the perennial question of
who the All Blacks six is remains open because we
asked Jason Ryan about where the wallasy tt will go

(34:35):
to eight and artists veta seven as everyone expects, and
it was reasonably guarded. But I think we certainly will
see that. So whether it's seven penny female or somebody else,
they need someone needs to stand up at six.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
That's a great segue into our chat with Jason Ryan
at the Coast of Rugby Club today.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
Well, Jason, start off of your area of expertise, mate,
how did Olie Norrish bash his way down the front door.

Speaker 6 (35:04):
Yeah, we've been pretty impressed with Oli in the last
couple of years. To be honest, I think this year
he's been incredibly accurate in his role. His big body's
built it nice, he's an excluse forward. He's dynamic around
the park both sides of the ball. So there's a
lot to like about him, and we feel that it's
time to bring in a younger Loose said, and it's
a great opportunity for him.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
Did you play effect there because I guess George Bauer
is a guy that's been there, done that, but you've
gone with the younger buck.

Speaker 6 (35:32):
I guess yeah, we know, we know George is there,
and we thought he played well in the final series.
I think Olie's played well consistently all year, So you
know you've got to you've got to look at that
and you know we've got We prided ourselves on selecting
a team that's four to five deep because we know
that there'll be injuries and we'll know that you can
never have enough props, so it was important for us

(35:53):
in the first selection to get him in.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
Broughden Callister went to the Chiefs and has forced his
way in as well, ahead of a guy like George Bell.
What goes into that selection.

Speaker 6 (36:04):
Brodie's really earned the right, he's been durable and he's
been extremely consistent right from game one. Belly came in
last year when there was an injury to Sonny and
Brody gets a chance this year there's an injury suffer,
you know. So again it's that deep side of it
where you've got to stay on and keep the position competitive.
But I think Brody has showed some really good collisions

(36:24):
both sides of the ball. He's a big body and
we're going to need a good scrumnging hooker and against France.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
Always a lot of interest in the loose forwards. You've
gone five there and some big games, missing two per
c comes in. How does that filter down round the
selection table for.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
The for the mix.

Speaker 6 (36:45):
Yeah, so look, you know, we saw how good art
he was and we believe that two per c this year,
probably the last couple of years, has really earned the right.
I think it's been a great story for Dupe. So
I think he's might have been twenty twenty he first
came in and he's gone away, and that's an example
of a player who really really wants to be an
All Black. And I think the leadership roles that he's

(37:05):
had with Wellington and the Kynes bought the best out
of them and we're seeing that. So and then obviously
we've got we've got Wallace there and we know how
consistent Lucas and Samma penny Fee. Now we thought he
had a really good Northern tour last year, the back
end he got. You know, there's a couple of things
were tidy up in his game and we'll be clear
around that. But I think up until that French week

(37:27):
where he got knocked down and Test one, he'd had
a real good training week and we thought he was
really ready to go.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
So we'll keep.

Speaker 6 (37:32):
Backing them in and and we've also got some locks
that can cover six as well.

Speaker 3 (37:36):
Do you see Wallace going to and to seven or
you're still open at the stage?

Speaker 2 (37:42):
What do you reckon?

Speaker 6 (37:44):
Oh, look, it's it's a it's a good combination that
we've got up our sleeve.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
Definitely. Yeah. Always players that go close and miss out
Dopp and Papliga, even black edarthing part of previous squads before.

Speaker 5 (37:56):
Wats your message for those players that have missed out
this time?

Speaker 6 (37:59):
Yeah, we'll stay in touch, you know, we'll have the
care package and get around the boys that do you know,
Raizor makes the phone calls this morning, which are not nice,
and then it's my job to follow up. You know,
we had a bit of a get together last week
in the Mountain. Dults was there and we had a
good catch up and where.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
He was at, and.

Speaker 6 (38:15):
Yeah, I've got no doubt that he'll go away and
work hard and because he's been a good All Black
and He've got no doubt he'll keep chopping away on
his craft.

Speaker 5 (38:23):
Ethan just kissing out on he was it a balance
thing or a mixed thing?

Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yeah, potentially, Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 6 (38:28):
Look, it's we just believe where sammer Penny's at and
that the accuracy Luke brings sort of with a few
positions probably gets a nod there. But you know, look
it's the All Blacks. He's always going to be team
players miss out and it makes that job hard, but
it's not supposed to be easy, so we just get
on with it.

Speaker 5 (38:45):
You know, Fabian Holland's a great story.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
And you know, coming from the Netherlands and going to
school here and and now eligible for the All Blacks,
what did you make of a superifing.

Speaker 6 (38:55):
I think he's been exceptional. There's a lot to like
about Fabian. I think he embraces the contest all the time,
whether he's got the ball or he hasn't got the ball.
Obviously a phenomenal line out forward who's learning his craft,
who's exceptional last year for the All Black fifteen against Munster,
and then he came in the back end and we
saw some things that you know, looked pretty good and

(39:18):
we believe he's got a big future young man.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
That's all in front of him.

Speaker 5 (39:22):
I guess left last year and getting into this year.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
What are the things is a forward path that you're
looking to improve.

Speaker 6 (39:27):
Oh, we're always looking to step forward into our opposition.
We need to make sure that our big rocks of
our game are really dialed in. I think you saw
at the back end of Super Rugby. I think it
was thirty four scrum penalties in the final series. All
the teams that had the dominant scrum went all the way.
So that's an important one of those big fundamental specially
when we look at France and just quality of our
acuracy of how we finish games, and.

Speaker 5 (39:49):
Just on Lucas that a concussioned protocol.

Speaker 6 (39:51):
Wave Gordon Yeap just going through an HIA protocol yet
a few bangs after the final She's the hell of
a contest, so we just got to make sure that
we don't rush that.

Speaker 5 (40:00):
As a forwards coach, must have enjoyed that sort of ding.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Dong battle, yeah, I did.

Speaker 6 (40:05):
I've enjoyed the last two or three weeks. Really it's
been probably a little bit more reality of what a
test matches, you know, So yeah, it's been good.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
Stylistically, we see much of the same or will punters
be able to see many big shifts in the game
without giving all your tactics.

Speaker 6 (40:26):
I think we need to get a little bit better
at our accuracy and our skill sets, and that will
complement our whole game, you know, whether or not we've
got to play with power. We believe we've got some
ball carriers that can genuinely do that upfront, and then
we've got some backs at a good finishes, you know,
like we've seen the impact that Jim had on the
Highlanders and I think that's going to be pretty exciting too.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Anything else you want to touch on the All Black
score before we wrap up. I mean we did mention it,
but dou Plus secretly fear this is a player that,
to our understanding had a contract offer on the table,
we set it out right today he added a contract
offer from Japan to go up there and was close
to taking it, but didn't want to give up that
All Black stream. And he's gone out there and at
some point in this two or three weeks is going

(41:09):
to take the field as an All Black. It really
is a great story.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
It is because he's invested in himself and I don't
want to say hit the jackpop, but that money is
always going to be there for him now and he
took a chance and that's paid off. So it is
it a great story. If you've brought in this conversation
out to now to just touch on briefly how the
All Blacks want to play where they need to improve

(41:34):
this year. I think it is that direct ball carrying,
it's attacking space, it's having a really dominant full pack
and finishing better. So I think that's where they're going
to target some real improvements.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yeah, I'd agree with that, and I think certainly the
finishing and closing out of games stands is the big
flashing red light that they need to work on from
season twenty twenty four, and those leads that you mentioned,
they all had you know the games they lost, they
led all back side. Shouldn't be doing.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
That, No, and that's where the big shifts need to come.
Just to shout out to was the men, wasn't it
on the barbecue and coastal rugby? Was some good see
some tar tartanaky beef, sausages and petties.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah, we done an absolute treat Burger Market. So yeah, absolutely,
it's the way to the media's coffee shop back coffee
truck as well.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
So yeah, it all went well, kids and tows so
they had a ball.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
Yeah, absolutely, all searching out autographs, including you know, Hollie
Richie al Coholic Banks star. Absolutely right. We'll take a
break here on Rugby Direct. I've been waiting forty or
so minutes for this. Let's stick in the Super Rugby
Final last year later.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
But this is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Ever try try ten sixty six, every tackle get up again.

Speaker 5 (42:57):
Afore I'm not.

Speaker 3 (42:58):
It's Rugby Direct.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
You're back with Rugby Direct, powered by Habits Health, and
it is time to talk the Super Rugby Final. It
is the Crusaders sixteen, the Chiefs twelve, and the Crusaders
win their fifteenth title in Super Rugby and say what
you like about them, and I will and then next

(43:23):
to a while. But they know their way to the
finish line. They know their way to that championship podium
more than any other team in this competition. And they
laid it out on Saturday night and were two good
for a Chiefs team that bossed the regular season, but
once again fall short. What did you make to the final?

Speaker 3 (43:44):
Wow? Almost fell asleep? You know, it's pretty tough. What not?
What's happening? Three points in the second.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Half, so we need mate? Three points is as good
as gold.

Speaker 3 (43:54):
Look, it's a redemption for the Crusaders, isn't it. Twenty
twenty four was in the dere and there was a
lot of factors that went into that. You had Scott
Robertson being elevated to the All Black shoe Heads, Richie
Mwonga and Sam Whitelocke, some generational players moving on. The

(44:14):
Crusaders obviously had a raft of injuries. You had Robert
Penny coming in, but it was a real low point
for a champion franchise to win four games to miss
the playoffs for the first time since twenty fifteen. You
and I are not alone here. We felt they should
move on from Rob Penny. They had a wide ranging

(44:36):
review which had I don't know what was it, seventy
on action points. How the review and they made some changes.
They got some massive pillars back Will Jordan was usually influential,
Cody Taylor coming back, Scott Barrett's these guys that didn't
play a lot of rugby in twenty twenty four were
real pillars. But others stepped up as well, Rivers, Rayhanna

(45:01):
and others. So look, the Crusaders will really enjoy that.
And the Chiefs it was a really bad into the
air for them. They blew home advantage against the bluesep
and did not fire a shot, really crumbled in the

(45:22):
second half, in particular that their work under the high
ball the scrum was dismantled. Damien McKenzie went missing some
really bad errors. They just felt the squeeze. They got
suffocated and a third lost final in a row. I
don't know whether it's just the weight, the mental burden.

(45:45):
It's one thing to acknowledge that, it's another to overcome it.
And it just felt the longer that match went on,
the heart of the Chiefs tried, and it just never
felt like they were going to win.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
They know it didn't. And the Crusaders led by one
point for most of that second spell and then got
to that four point advantage around the seventy first minute mark,
but their advantage felt way more than that, and it
felt o the Chiefs were desperately chasing the game, that
they were really only one point behind or four points behind,
and not so they were playing catch up rugby necessarily,

(46:19):
but it felt like they were trying to, you know,
stay above water in the game and put under pressure
by the Crusader. Nothing they could do was working. They
get the ball, the carry for a few phases, they
lose it forward, they conceive penalties, the scrum was not
working in the slightest flitting yours having a field day.

(46:40):
They just don't seem to know how to play finals footing.

Speaker 3 (46:43):
I'm going to steal a boxing analogy here, So let's
say the heavyweight titles on the line when you go
to someone's backyard when you fight a champion, and the
Crusaders weren't champions, but given their history, given their finals pedigree,
their record at home, you have to take the title
from them, right The second half, the Chiefs they just

(47:05):
they didn't and they also just didn't adapt their tactic.
Even when they brought on Josh Jacob and Xavier Rowe
who are more attacking minded playmakers, and McKenzie went to fullback,
They're still kicking the ball away and it's not working.
Change it, do something, have a crack. It just felt
like the Chiefs throughout that finals went away from what

(47:26):
worked for them during the year, that they became really
conservative and tights and they didn't have the ability to
adjust on the field.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
No, they didn't. And that was the bizarre thing I
thought from the Chiefs is that in the first half
they had a bit of pay from going direct. They
scored the first tries, scored two tries to one. Yep,
and Stevenson's won just before half timele though you know
went upstairs. That's right, But I think you look at
it and go they went into these shells at halftime

(47:56):
a little bit and with you know, it looks like
it was that perhaps a prehaps the Crusaders found thought
there was going to be some opportunities putting the under
aerial contests and just playing that right areas of the ground.
They wouldn't be to respond to that. And that's what
the coaches said at halftime. They are exactly right, because
the Chiefs didn't know how to fight the way out
of that. They, as I said before, they felt like

(48:18):
they were drowning and just trying to stay above the surface.
I saw a colleague doll in Cleveland. Is newslet to
calm similar analogy to you. You know that Clad went
on to talk about staying in the fight. You actually
got to take the fight. It's not about staying in
the fight. You've got to be in the fight. You
gonna be the fight. You're gonna be attacking the opposition.
And at no point in that game, especially after halftime,
did it feel like they were doing that.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
We have to do something to challenge the way that
Crusaders want to play. They want to squeeze you at
the set piece, they want to pin you down in
your danger zone, they want to extract penalties and suffocate you.
And at no points did it feel like the Chiefs

(49:00):
were controlling the flow, the momentum, the narrative of that game.
And they really needed just someone to grab it by
the scruff, whether it was fifty twenty two sorry or
some sort of breakout or just try something new. And
I don't know whether it was that the pressure of

(49:20):
wanting to break through so badly.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Well, I think the Crusader's got all the pictures that
they wanted in a dream scenario. This is what the
Chiefs presented to them. The Crusaders knew exactly how to
combat it, one of those scrump nalities, gone on a roll,
put themselves into the right areas of the ground. I
mean the Crusaders credit to the Chiefs defense. They couldn't
get past them, but they were just basically had set
up camp inside the twenty two for most of the

(49:43):
second spell.

Speaker 3 (49:44):
Yeah, and look, to be fair, it's freezing. There's a
lot of moisture on the ball, which makes handling difficult.
So it's not set up. You're not playing it at
indoor stadium, it's not set up for expensive you know
chance you're attacking rugby. But if it's not working, try something.
I just didn't feel like the Chiefs were brave enough

(50:06):
to have a real crack. So that will hurt.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
It will hurt big time.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
Because Clayton McMillan now departs, we expect Johnny Gibbs to
come him, but that roster is largely going to remain
the same and that who doo that hurdle, The baggage
stays with those players. And I think you mentioned the
week before that the Crusaders know how to win those
games and the Chiefs just don't. And until you break

(50:31):
through and do that, and the longer that goes on,
the harder it is to break.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
It really is. And you know for Clayton McMillan, so close,
so far, now goes to Munster and you know they're
not winning a Super Rugby title. Thing can hang around
you think Ian Foster didn't win one with the Chiefs,
got to one final, got belted. Todd Blackadder got to
two finals, should have won one of those, probably against
the war Retars. Again, you know, if he wins one

(50:59):
of those, his career trajectory changes a little bit.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
Leo McDonald.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Leo McDonald, you know, didn't get there with the Blues
and now you question whether we're he sort of goes
in the coaching ranks, whether it's overseas or whatever. So
winning one of them can change things for you if
you were a coach, and he hasn't been able to
do that. But it is opportunity for him to go
to Munster and you know you're up against it there
in Leinster, you know, taking it on over there and

(51:25):
taking Monster, sorry, taking Leinster on and the rest of
the u RC etc.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
In that comp Yeah, if you take a step back
and look at McMillan's tenure as a whole, he came
in as an interim coach, transformed that franchise from the
depths of the Warren Gatlin era, leaves with the best
winning percentage of any Chiefs coach, including Dave Rennie who
won back to back titles in twenty twelve twenty thirteen.

(51:53):
There's so many good things that McMillan did. The Chiefs
have been the most consistent team the past three years,
but there's no civilware.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
No.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Then this is professional sport, and so you would have
to say despite all those achievements, Stock does dip and
unfortunately that's going to be a bit of a weight
that he's going to carry rounds. Hopefully he can go
to Monster and do good things, but as you say,
it's a very challenging climate, a different style of rugby,

(52:22):
and so he's going to have to adapt to that
and it'll be interesting to see how it goes.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Now.

Speaker 3 (52:27):
Conversely, the Crusaders Rob Pennie does come back and won
a title, and so surely he stays on now.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Well, I'm not convinced that he is hearing from a
post game. He was very reluctant to make a decision
and kind of intimated there was some temptation to go
out on top won the title.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
I did see some coments from Man's Bridge that they
weren't seeking another coach though, so maybe that means that
it's internal. I certainly expect Penny to have I would.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Say he probably will, but it was just interesting hearing
his comments go that he wasn't competed and there was
some temptation maybe to go out on top and leave
it there. I mean, he went from zero to hero
and the space of one season. I saw Jason Pye,
our colleague, saying that he basically was getting a standing
ovation after full time and you know who would have
thought that twelve months ago and christ Church. So I'm

(53:21):
sure for him there's probably a temptation maybe to go
one more and Takahat or one yew Zealand Stadium, the
new venue there, maybe lead the team and then hand
the reins over the following year and twenty twenty seven
to Brad Moore or whether it might be coming there,
I suspect you'll probably go for at least one more.

Speaker 3 (53:37):
Yeah, I think so. And what do you think that
means for the Crusaders? How do you think they are
placed to kick on next year? Imagine the bulk of
that squad's going to remain the same. They get Lester back,
and when you've brought in that even more. This was
an incredibly tight Super Ereguy season. We saw more upsets,
more jeopardy than any time in recent memory. The Blues

(54:00):
could or would have should have beaten the Crusaders in
christ Church. Yep, there wasn't a lot between the teams,
so the Crusaders broke through in that title. How do
you think that leaves in place for next year?

Speaker 2 (54:12):
I think relatively well placed. They'll lose James O'Connor, who
came in for a one season cameo. You know, after
all that he's done throughout his career, he finally gets
a Super Rugby title right at the end before he
goes and joins Lisa, and I think he's been a
very very good servant for the Crusaders for this year.
They've got James White who's played a bit of NBC,
who I expect will probably come in. So that makes

(54:34):
now to Kimita potentially to come back from injury. There's
a couple of questions. Know Ethan Blackaday, as we mentioned
in the All Blacks half of the pod, not resigned
beyond the season with New Zealand Rugby to my knowledge
as yet, does listening out on the All Blacks, given
some pauls for thought, does he go to Japan? You know,
cash and there. You wouldn't blame him given his injury
record for doing so. And maybe if he doesn't crack
the All Blacks, perhaps it's time for him to go abroad.

(54:56):
He'd be a loss for them. Tom Christie, you know,
is aging up, but I s expect he'll be back
next year. Oli Methis Olly mathis maybe well in the mix,
you know, no better advertisement for come come down and
join us and then winning the title on the weekend.
Brandon en were I too getting Nick Bailey he's resigning
for one more year. Dallas. They've got the bulk of

(55:18):
that squad in Lockton for next year.

Speaker 3 (55:21):
And it must be said that it was an inspired
choice to make David Havili the captain. The captain, I
think he was a massive part of that team this year.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
He was and took a lot of pressure off those
young playmakers Taha Kima, Rivers Raihana took a lot of
pressure off them and did a lot of the playmaking work.

Speaker 3 (55:38):
Yeah, and apparently played that final with his kellies hanging
on Y three as well, So pretty banged up, but
he wouldn't be the only one. Scott barre at today.
A couple of stitches on the eye that's been split
a few times and grazes everywhere. So it was a
very physical, combative match.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Was it a good match?

Speaker 3 (55:57):
Look, if you're watching that as a neutral, No, there
are extenuating circumstances in terms of the conditions and finals
and the magnitude of that game. I think you know,
if you look back and watch the World Cup final,
was that a great adversement for the sport? Maybe not
with the way it's been officiated as well, that that

(56:19):
comes into it. So if you're trying to market the sport,
that's the pinnacle of super rugby too, non rugby fans
as a tough sell. Three points in the seventies something
minute in the second half, you know, engrossing for somebody
who's invested in it like we are, or you know,

(56:41):
Crusaders Chiefs fans. Sure, it might have you on the
edge of your seat, but otherwise I think as a spectacle,
not great.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
I was workshopping this with you on the uber back.
I think we need to increase the value of point
that tries in rugby. Again, they did it in the
early nineties, from four to five. I think to promote
more attacking rugby, you go from five to six. Conversion
remains two, penalties remain three. But if you're going to
have double the points for a penalty by scoring a try,

(57:14):
may promote more attacking rugby. And that at the end
of that, I think is what we want. May not
be what the entire world wants. You know, some of
the Northern Hemisphere revolves around who can kick the best
penalty goals. But I think to promote attacking rugby, maybe
going to six points for a try could be something
with looking.

Speaker 3 (57:34):
At yeah, I think it's worthy of a discussion that
the other point here is a worked right. That style
of rugby won the Crusaders the title, So why what
was the encouragement to go away from that? So and
they're not alone if you look, you know, across the
world game it is quite a homogeneous. It's very structured,

(57:57):
it's very planned, and you almost need an agitator, somebody
out of the box to come in like Wayne Smith
to a degree with the black Ferns and just promotes
free flowing offloads to break up that style. Super rugby
was brilliant this year, but when it did when winter hit,
when finals hits, it did revert to very tight, very contested,

(58:23):
very direct, very limited from a pure spectacle point of view.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
Is that the way that finals just go though, And
you know Super rugby finals haven't always been about attack,
you know, thinking the fold final, I mean it was
a great night, but the highlight of this Hurricanes game
in twenty fifteen was a tight game decided by a
drop goal. You know, maybe there is just finals for

(58:53):
and teams become a custom that you can play with
gay bandon for fifteen straight weeks, but when the rubber
hits the road, you've actually got to tighten up and
play some rugby.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
Yeah, there is a lot of truth.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Well not play some rugby, if you get my draft year.

Speaker 3 (59:04):
Yeah, and look, to be fair, there were surprising moments
in that game where both the Crusaders and Chiefs turned
down shots at goal and had a crack when perhaps
taking the points in a big game would have been
the better option. So it's not like they're not trying
to attack. But even in those instances, you're promptly looking
at like a mall tray, which isn't the most entertaining.

(59:25):
So maybe rugby needs to do more to promote that
style of rugby.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
But you're right.

Speaker 3 (59:30):
When the crunch comes and everything's on the line, naturally
it becomes more tight intense.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
A couple of things to wrap up, tip and comp
You picked the Chiefs, I picked the Crusaders. I think
this is the first time I've won in the three
years we've been doing this. I went fifty eight point
five to fifty point five. Well, well, thank you very much.
Three two ones, Nick Bierley, Yeah, well yeah you can.
You can get in touch with them and sort that out.

(59:57):
MVP medal, Ardie Savia twenty five, Boden Barrett fourteen, Hoskins
are two to twelve. None of those players can get there.
Three two ones for me, I'm going to Flitch and
you all for three, Will Jordan for two and Rivers
Rayhannah for one and Rivers Rayhannah got the MVP final
of the game, but I'm giving all my threetwy Ons
to the Crusaders.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
I agree with chel Was. I'm not sure whether Sky
or who picked that Man of the match. Rivers played well,
but for a prop to play eighty minutes to recover
from two scrump penalties play that long with a knee
injury our standing effort, so he's hand down, hands down
should have been Man of the Match. I'm giving two

(01:00:40):
to Quinn, t to Pie I thought he was very strong,
faded in the second half but still put his case forwards.
And I'm going to give one to Christian Leo Wady
who has been superb all year.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Yeah. I think we ended up with about forty five
players all up getting MVP medal votes throughout the season.
So there we go. Was spread around to for a bit,
but Ardie Savia outs on top. Couple of things to
wrap up before we do say goodbye, and Rapey Direct.
Speaking of Ardie, your piece last week in the New
Zealand Herald with some interesting stuff around his contracts and

(01:01:13):
what he was offered by I will turn down, perhaps
is the better word, by going to Werner PACIFICA and
New Zealand Rugby not offering the full top up. Just
explain and I guess you will take on what you've
been able to report.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
Yeah, I think it's an interesting discussion point, isn't it.
So Miana are not in New Zealand franchise and so
this was a unique situation, unprecedented in that no All
Black let alone one of the highest paid, most valued
figures in the New Zealand game recent role Player of

(01:01:46):
the Year going to a non New Zealand franchise and
clearly that sparked a lot of concern from New Zealand Rugby.
They were concerned about Miana's coaching, their high performance setup,
their facilities. They felt that Ardie Severe's game would suffer
and he wouldn't be fit for purpose for the All Blacks. Now,

(01:02:09):
when you look at that with a reflective lens, about
what transpired, Artie becoming the super Rugby MVP with two
weeks remaining, the.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Rapey Direct MVP meddles right, very prestigious, prestigious honor.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
His impacts in terms of inspiring and improving Mowana and
how much that enhance the overall competition. It doesn't look great.
And so the two contracts that Artie was presented with
were you stay at the Kings and your all black
top up is guaranteed you go to Mowana and twenty
percent of that which I understand twenty percent of artie

(01:02:46):
salary is close to two hundred thousand dollars is at
risk because of those concerns that they had. So one
of the riddle me this, So, having been through this process,
what do you make of the process, and because Artie's
been through it, if there are other all blacks, and
there have been others such as Antonina Brown and to

(01:03:08):
a lesser degree to Buvai who fluted with going to Moe,
Richie mu Wanga will be a target when he returns home.
With Artie pushing through that process, do you think it
would be easier in future for an all black to
go to Mowana.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Well, I think hopefully Artie's paved the way for more
all blacks to go to more Onana Pacifica.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
They are kept because they do have provisions there for
a maximum of three current all blacks in their squad.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
That's right, they should be those three all blacks should
be treated. I would have thought the same as any
other all black that wants to go there. Mate, Look,
there's probably some handicap that needs to be put there
when you've got the five foundation franchises and w Wana
does stand outside and if you want one to stand
on it's own two feet, you've got to let him

(01:03:57):
do that work at some point. But it was a drastic,
you know, dressedic drop in terms of what he was
going to be well did get paid in the Pacific,
So I think the natural cap is those three numbers.
You can not go franti every player, and surely for

(01:04:17):
those three players you can come to some sort of
agreement that this is what you are going to get paid,
and it is going to be fair. It's going to
be market rates what you would get at another New
Zealand Super Rugby team. I get that those teams want
to protect their patch and various things, sure, but you
can't do that by degridating one a PACIFICA. On the
other side, there needs to be a balanced and I

(01:04:38):
get where both parties are coming from to an extent,
but I just think this is probably the wrong way
to go about it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
Yeah, Moana's purpose is to serve some more and Tonga
and to promote players to those national teams. But there
is that provision for three all blacks, and if that
provision is there, then they have to be allowed to
recruit and explore that and it needs to be an
even playing field. I can understand some of those concerns,
but you would hope now with the season that they've had.

(01:05:07):
I think there's still some fuinancial concerns in the background
around Mouana, But on the field, surely they've proven themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Well I think so. But then again, this is why
we don't see all blacks being selected or available to
go to being sects from say the Warratars or the
Western Force or whatever it is, because New Zealand Rugby
can't control or doesn't have a full overview of the
high performance systems, their facilities, everything like that. With five

(01:05:35):
New Zealand franchises they do it. With Mwana they do not.
With the four Australian teams they do not either. So
this is why we don't see all blacks going there.
Because New Zealand Rugby likes seeing and likes having the
full knowledge that these players are going to work without
a framework. They're going to be using our facilities. If
we need to take the rest week, then we know
that these franchises are part of us essentially, and we

(01:05:58):
can go Adi Saviga needs a rest week this week,
or you know, they can manipulate it that way. So
it's sort of a half way house where it sits
for wea pacific moment.

Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
Yeah, I see what you're saying. Artie played I think
twelve or fourteen games from one of this year. Oh
they've rested it. Yeah for sure, Yeah, played big minutes.
But then so Diriquoiwanne for the Blues, So it wasn't
like this year there was a hard and fast rule
with that. And I think Scott Robertson went and visited
Wuana just like he did the other New Zealand franchises.
So I think a lot of those concerns about the

(01:06:31):
high performance, the coaching, whether Artie would be flogged, whether
he would go backwards for the All Blacks, hopefully they've
been alleviated for others should they want to go there
in future.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
Absolutely. Before we wrap up on rugby directs, form All
Blacks coach Ian Foster releasing his long awaited biography last week,
Autobiography and details obviously some of the turmoil that went on.
It was tumultuous. It's a fun word between his tenure

(01:07:01):
from twenty twenty to twenty twenty three. We won't get
into all the details of the book which I have read,
but one thing that stood out Liam was a passage
around the twenty twenty three World Cup. Now, I think
we talked about the podcast. At the time, you had
a very good source that was giving you information around
the team selection. In his book, Ian Foster details his

(01:07:22):
frustrations with that details a phone call that he had
to you, which ARACLESE sitting alongside you at I think
christ As you report when that conversation was made. But regardless,
I guess it's probably an opportunity to just explain how
not your source or anything like that, but how it's
your job to report information that comes your way. It's

(01:07:43):
what you're paid to do. So maybe tap the floor.

Speaker 4 (01:07:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
I hope you enjoyed Fozzy's books, and I haven't read
it in its entirety. I've seen a lot of excerpts
and listen to various interviews, so I think what it is.
It was Fozzy's chance to share his side of the story,
right everything from his perspective, and from that sense, nothing's wrong.
It's his view on the world. Was a very tumultuous

(01:08:09):
time and challenging and precedented in many ways. So he
said that chance, and that's great. I hope people enjoy
the book. From my perspective, yeah, that the pressure point
around the team was challenging because there was a lot

(01:08:31):
of tension around it, a lot of frustrations from the
All Blacks, a lot of misinformation about where that was
coming from. And yeah, I think the takeaway point is
that as journalists we are neutral. We as New Zealanders.
Of course you want the All Blacks to do well,

(01:08:53):
but we're not supporters. And the team news in that
instance is intriguing information. It's valued from a news point
of view. It's information the public want to know. And

(01:09:14):
there's a couple of points I want to make. One
is that the the Orbles traditionally release their team around
midday Thursday. The Springboks successive World Cup champions typically released
their team two days earlier on a Tuesday. So if
it's that big issue, why has it not affected the

(01:09:34):
Spring Box. If it's that much of a competitive advantage,
why do the spring Box not delay their team? And
the other point I would make is look, Fozzy to
his credit, I don't have an issue with the way
he conducted himself. We had a very fair conversation. He

(01:09:54):
put his viewpoint across. I said, look, I'm just doing
my job and I'm going to continue to do it.
But there were other individuals around that team that did
not conduct themselves in an appropriate way in any way,
shape or form. So I'm very comfortable with the way
that I carried out the duty to my job in
that time.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
That's what you were editors, your bosses are asking your
viewers to break rugby news. That's why you're employed by
the New Zealand Herald, it's why you come on this podcast.
And when rugby news is given to you, it's your
duty to put it across to the public for consumption.

Speaker 3 (01:10:29):
That that's a journalist's role. And look, that's challenging at
times because in any good journalist builds relationships and through
that time Fozzy and I used to have a great relationship,
but because of the way results went, that sould and
that was the nature of the beast. I didn't feel
like I was ever personal. He would probably have a
different view. But it was a very wild ride, wasn't

(01:10:54):
it in terms of results, change of coaches, raise, a
potentially coming in not coming in, and then yeah, the
team situation. So there are a lot of tensions around
that time.

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
They certainly were, and it's the point you make just
to wrap up around the fact that we're not cheerleaders. Yes,
from a New Zealand perspective, great to see our team
winning on the national international stage. But as soon as
you conduct an interview, you're working your job. You're behind
a keyboard. I'm jumping on the commentary. I'm trying to
be as neutral as possible. You don't know who's tuning in,

(01:11:28):
you don't know who's reading it, and it's your duty,
i think, to your listeners, who are readers, whoever it
might be, to go down that middle line as much
as possible. Yes, we're all asked to write opinion pieces
on how things are tracking. But when you are behind
a keyboard and reporting the facts, that's what That's where
the line is, you know, and that's where you just
deliver the facts, not you know, any sort of cheerleading

(01:11:50):
or you know, national pride or anything like that that
varies from country to country, don't get me wrong, but
certainly how I see my job and how you see
your job as well.

Speaker 3 (01:11:58):
Yeah, and look, that doesn't mean that you're a robot
or you're unemotional. I've been in and you've been There's
Alice Park where the All Blacks have great comebacks and
you're one of few kiwis there and and man like,
that's an incredible experience. And when you're at an event
today and you're hearing do Carefi and Timothyvanawa and Fabian

(01:12:21):
Holand talk about how they found out the news are
becoming an All Black for the first time. When you
see all Blacks being emotional singing the anthem, of course
that stirs something in you and you're happy for them
and you want them to do well. But you're not
a member of that team, right, And our role is

(01:12:42):
to report that we get paid by a media company.
We're not in the All Blacks, So there is a
differentiation that needs to be made there.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
Yeah, yeah, well said that'll do us for Rugby director.
It has been a bumper old episode. Hope you've enjoyed it.
We will be back next week I think from Test
City we'll plan to do it Dunedin looking forward to it.
Strapping on the on the ride with us throughout the
All Black season very much looking forward to that. Get underwear.

Speaker 3 (01:13:09):
If any Southerners Dunedin iights have got any recommendations for
a soup or something very still getting over hungry hoboes, hoboes.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
Yeah, the cheese rolls and a bit of soup didn't.
It went down to treats and haven't been able to
replace that. So hit us on the socials if you
want to get in touch and tell us where we
should be directing our lunchtime spins. Now we does. For
a whole week I could to see our friends had
happened health tackling all your aches and pains from a
sport and worker thanks to Lasting Bars English. We will

(01:13:39):
see you next week.

Speaker 1 (01:13:44):
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