October 5, 2025 • 40 mins
This week on Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier mop up the All Blacks-Wallabies test in Perth and debate what can be read into the win and performance, and if certain players have solidified their selections as a result.
We also look ahead to the possible end of year tour squad and ask what is going on with secondary schools rugby in NZ?
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from Newstalks EDB. Follow this
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
Straight down the Middle of Drum Dickney Scy.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Tryst get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby
Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News
Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Folklib Solutions, lifting you
and your business to a higher level. Elliott Smith and
with me Liam Napier, New Zealand Herald Rugby Writer. We
are in Perth on a Sunday morning, about to sign
off from our duties. But we couldn't leave our podcast
family with nothing that listened to before we hit it
(00:58):
back across the ditch. So one more for the ditch,
One for the ditch, Liam, and we sit here on
a Sunday morning, reflected on the All Blacks twenty eight
fourteen win over Australia at OPTAs Stadium in Perth, first
time they got back to back wins in this Rugby Championship.
It was a wets game, especially in the second half.
Conditions didn't come to play as much as probably the
(01:21):
All Blacks or the Wallabies would have liked them too.
But the All Blacks granded out a win twenty eight
to fourteen. What were your initial top line thoughts on
that performance.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
It was a very wet day, wasn't it.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Elliott rain constantly pretty much throughout Saturday and a bit
round today as well, which did make handling difficult.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Look, I think it was a step forward for the
All Blacks.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
They've been searching for that consistency having gone win loss, win, loss,
win loss, but I think it's only a small one.
I'm still not totally convinced about this All Black team.
There were some pleasing aspects, particularly on an individual standpoints.
Quinta pirate Center it was a real standout, particularly given
(02:05):
the fact that it's an unfamiliar position. Talked to him postgame,
didn't we and he talked about he was actually training
on the Monday on the wing, and then he was
named on the Tuesday internally at center with no heads up,
so real surprise to him. So given that context, in
the fact that he'd barely played there in the last
(02:26):
five years, that was a brilliant performance for him. From
a team perspective, I think the All Blacks were on
the rack early, but they found a way through it
and I think tactically in the second half they bossed
the territory.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
They played to the conditions.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Damien McKenzie, who I didn't think had a great match,
did step up and kick a couple of big penalties
and then George Bauer finishes the job at the end
with his first professional try. I think it was in
his one hundred and fortieth first class match, so nice
moment for him. But I think when the All Blacks
sit down to reflect on this Rugby Championship, Scott Barrett
(03:05):
mentioned the fact that there's a few scars there, harsh
lessons and I think it's another underwhelming tournament tournament for
the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, we'll get to those scars in a moment or two. Look,
it wasn't a convincing performance necessarily from the All Blacks.
But even when Australia scored that try to get back
close in the second spell to what was it twenty fourteen,
I think it was I didn't feel like they were
in a huge danger of losing that game. Australia had
(03:38):
that try scrubbed out early on in the game and
that could have changed the momentum. But call back for
the Tom Hooper neck roll Crock Roll. Even when they
scored that try it fell out. The All Blacks just
always had their noses in the front and head the
game and their control. I thought the defense was pretty
good apart from that one blemish later on the game,
(04:00):
but otherwise, when Australia threatened, the All Blacks would always
come up with a way to snuff it out, and
I think that was probably the most pleasing aspect of
the performance. I think attacking wise, there was some glimpses,
some moments where it looked like it was coming together,
but for large periods of the game they weren't able
to really string together attacking phases that hurt the Wallabies.
(04:22):
They were just playing with possession, able to use this
scrum as a weapon for large periods. But it was
a sort of weird performance in anyways, because I felt
never the All Blacks, you know, and even in the
late stagers were in danger of losing, but they didn't
assert their dominance as much as they perhaps could have.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yeah, I think that's fair, And look, the conditions were
a factor, and so was Matthew Carley the referee. He
blew twenty eight penalties and I think we've seen two
weeks in a row, referees become a real focal point
of a stop start, truncated spectacle, and that's a frustration
(04:59):
because these were two teams that did want to play
even in the condition, so that I think that had
an impact. You mentioned the scrum Blocks did use that
well even without Ethan de Groot.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
The line out was a wee bit shaky.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
I thought the Wallabies largely won the breakdown again Fraser mcwright,
a couple of big penalties there so, and I think
we saw the recurrence of some issues under the high
ball without Caleb Clark.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
So there's some common themes there which worry me.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
With the All Blacks to break down the high ball
and the lineout has been a bit shaky this year.
The Wallabies also considered two yellow cards. You mentioned one.
The All Blacks didn't score a point when the Wallabies
would twice down to fourteen men, so I think still
lacking that ruthlessness. But look they scored four tries to
one and there were some really thought some individuals stood up.
(05:54):
And also the context of this is the All Blacks
are missing Bowden, Barrett, Caleb Clark, Ethan de Groot and Tuprouvai,
who sounds like seasons over with the knee injury and Lomax.
So you are to get into your depth, and there
were some players that stood up were mentioned to pire
Lester Finelook, who had a couple of big carries. I
(06:15):
thought Peter Luckeye was really good at number eights, but
then also some questions as well. I don't think Damien
McKenzie took his chance. He was better in the second half,
but he wasn't authoritative, and Ruben Love gets seven or
eight minutes off the bench, and that's clearly a lack
(06:37):
of trust in them. So he still hasn't had any
time at first five and I don't.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Think that was two years for the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I don't think that was the kind of game plan
the game where you could have put him in at ten.
The game was in the balance. I think there was
a feeling that you needed to keep your game driver
in the seat, and disrupting that by bringing in Love
for the closing ten minutes could have actually made things worse. Now.
I don't think Dami ckenzy had a great game either,
(07:04):
but I think if you put Love in in it,
it could disrupt that momentum that the All Blacks have
is they try to close out the game and ultimately
that needs to be the most important thing rather than
getting Love minutes at ten.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Maybe he's been there two years though, and look if
Mackenzie goes down or barretts.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
This is the first year though that he's been seen
as a ten in the All Works environment. Last year
you have a pair of fiddle was around very much.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You know.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yeah, I just think there's a real disparity in the messaging.
You know, bill Blacks are talking about their confidence in
him and how he's doing so well at training, and
then they're not giving him any time at ten. And
I think there is a lack of depth at ten
and he does need some exposure at some point. And
if it wasn't going to come last night, then the
only potential opportunity that I see on the horizon is
(07:56):
maybe against Wales in the last Test of the year.
So there is a scenario where Ruben of Love doesn't
play ten this whole year for the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Again, I mean, he's barely played ten for the Hurricanes,
and you know, there's got He's got a lot of
people out there saying that he should have played ten
in this game alone, but he's you know, only started
really playing there for the Hurricanes and the back end
of that Super Rugby season. There's that enough to be
in All Blacks ten.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
I think then they need to start developing that depth
there because Boden Barracks is what thirty five Damien mckins
is going to be around a while. I know they
getting wrong and back next year, but and behind them
there's a real lack of options I think, so I
would have liked to see them given them the last
(08:40):
ten to fifteen minutes. What about the record eleven in
a row against the Wallabies, that's not all owing to
Scott Robinson. I think that they've got four of those,
but the eclipses the eight to twenty ten and I
guess you know, there has been a real ground swell
around the Wallabies this year on the back of the
(09:02):
British and Irish Lions. They winner Alice Park, but they've
also now lost three in a row and eleven in
a row to the All Blacks and I thought we
saw them slip backed into some pretty bad habits last night.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I was really quite disappointed.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
They started well but they faded really badly, a lot
of ill discipline, a lot of inaccuracy taintied minute ten
was really underwhelming. So I think there's some some worries
there for the Wallabies too.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, Look, I don't think Ben's a Test player. Kuaike
Cooper's came out of the same judgment this morning. I've
been seeing on social media good super rugby player, but
I think is out of his depth at Test level.
And look, there was a big opportunity for him potentially
last night, but I just don't think that he's a
kind of Test ten that the Wallabies need. And I
(09:49):
think there's a big question marks there because James O'Connor
might have played his last Test and maybe they'll get
him out for the end of the year tour potentially,
but with Tom Liner injured and they don't seem to
have a huge amount of trusted him thrust of him
for the Lion series. But I think question marks still
on him. Ben Doaldson not in the squad, carent you
know they're still searching for that ten the Wallabies. So yeah,
(10:12):
I think they took a step backwards. And it's interesting
you mentioned that that winning streak that they've had the
all Blacks over the Wallabies have come with two coaches
that have been under fire for a lot of their tenures.
Ian Foster with what's seven of those wins? I think
last win for the Wallabies was in twenty twenty now
Scott Robertson with the last four since he took charge.
(10:33):
So for all the I guess the clamoring and you
know all the noise last week saying the Bledderslough should
be a three match series. Well, currently the Wallabies are
in their worst ever streak against the All Blacks so
you don't deserve a three match series on that basis.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
No, that's right, and it's I think it's five in
a row. The All Blacks have won on Australian soil
as well, so it's not like that's just happened at
Eden Park or in New Zealand's And the way to
shift that narrative is to get some victories and then
if you have a few drawn series then you have
a lot more clout to push for three matches. It's
hard to fit that in the calendar, but it certainly
(11:09):
strengthens your argument. So the longer that streak goes on,
the longer the All Blacks dominance over the Wallabies continues,
and yeah, I think at the start of this Bleedterslough
most people would have sat back and said, this is
the Wallaby's best chance in probably five years to knock
off the All Blacks and at least one of these
(11:29):
tests and maybe even regain the Bledders.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Though, well, it's been much of the same, isn't.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
It It has? And they go on to interview two. Now,
with three games in a row lost, they play Eddie
Jones's Japan. That'll be a fun game in Tokyo in
two or three weeks time. But yeah, before Josement Hans
the rains over after the Nation's Cup window in July
next year, there's a fabit to work on for the Wallabies.
A couple of plays you mentioned there, leicsterifying Anooka coming
(11:56):
in for his first Test and two years on the
left wing. I thought he had some moments where he
looked really good, didn't come a lot his way in
the second spell, then got subbed and Leroy Carter shifted
over to that left wing. But I thought it was
a promise returned from flying Aku that were glimpses of
what he is able to do. It's interesting. I've got
a theory that he would have started at center last
(12:17):
night if not for Caleb Clark been injured, and that
may not have seen Quinn to Pie play center. He
might have come off the bench again. So they've got
nothing to back up that theory. It's just something I
threw at you a couple of days ago. But Quinta
Pie took his chance. Lester Fightingku sort of took his chance.
But what I think we've saw from last night that
Caleb Clarke will remain the first choice left wing. Leroy
(12:40):
Carter is making great strides at the moment on the
right wing. You know, his strength so close to the line.
He's from Burrow over for that first try for the
All Blacks to put them up and then you can
put fighting a Nuoku on the bench. Does that now mean, though,
that quint to Pire is the first choice center for
the All Blacks on the basis of that.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Performance, not on one game.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
No, But look, I think you can say that Quinn
did more in one test than Billy did in seven
this year. I think Billy has Billy Proctor has been
strong defensively at times. But man, that was a statement
commanding performance from Quinn and it was all over the park.
(13:23):
You know, he had to scramble. Center is an extremely
tough position defensively because you've got so much space on
your outside between yourself and the wing. And he had
Max Jorgensen on his outside a couple of times, who's
one of the quickest Wallabies, maybe one of the quickest
players going around, certainly off the mark, and a couple
(13:43):
of bootlaced tackles, so defensively I thought he was really good.
He shifted into second five a couple of times as well.
He set up Lerocarda's first trial with a massive charge
off the line out defend on Tom Hooper to score
his second try, So it really was the full package.
I was quite surprised to see him replaced stuff to
(14:05):
fifty five minutes, and I think he certainly looked disappointed
coming off. But I think it would be hard to
replace him at center for the next game against Ireland
in Chicago. But I don't think you could sit here
and definitively say that he is the guy.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I agree with you about Leicester.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I don't think he is a long term wing, starting wing,
and I think if you asked him there I spoke
to him during the week and he certainly said that
his futures in the midfield. He played the back end
of games on the loose forward in the loose forwards
for too long, and I think that's.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
He's comfortable there.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
And we saw one charge where he bumped off Suyer Lee.
That's his strength ball in hands charging. I think he
could be exposed under the high ball, but I did
like the way that the All Black scot him involved.
But I think there's some real options there, aren't there
when you look at that center position. I thought Jordi
Barrett was really good again last night, and that's probably
(15:07):
a reflection of the way too Pier played as well.
It's sort of you made the comment to me that
he probably played a more traditional twelve role and maybe
he was trying to take on too much with Billy
there in recent weeks. I thought he really sparked Bill
Blacks with a couple of rubber kicks to Pire's first try.
I came with the falcon, pretty classic way to get
a try but a luck. But yeah, I thought that
(15:30):
combination worked really well, didn't.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It It did? Yeah, Well, like I think Jury's not
Jury's out still because it's only one Test match and
you know Ireland will be a pretty good Test with
a really strong midfield that they've got, But the Lobbies
have a good midfield as well. You know we heard
before the series Eki Tower and so Elite you were
being talented as one of the best midfield combinations in
the world. Ikitaw sort of tried last night, but I
(15:53):
thought both of them have had two quiet Test matches
and I don't know that Joseph, of course I saw
a Letty's best position is at thirteen.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
No, I agree with you.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
I think I would like to seem at fullback there's
more space you can utilize him under the high Borne well,
I think we only probably or on once in that
challenge with Jordie Barrett really contest like that. He probably
sees a wee bit more ball at center, but you
can get your full back involved more so I would
like to see him slip back to forward.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
The other.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
I think an important piece of context with Phil Blacks
in the past two weeks as they've played the Wallabies twice, right,
and yes they've improved, but they've also lost three in
a row and they're not the spring box, and that
they do things differently. They their defense isn't as suffocating
and I think that particularly in the back climb, and
(16:45):
I think the All Blacks have enjoyed that a bit
more space and freedom. So they're not going to have
that when they come up against Irelands and so those
are things to consider. So while the All Blacks have
improved and they put together back to back performances, they've
both been against the Wallabies, so that leaves me a
little bit reticent to say they're back or they've definitively
(17:08):
shifted the needle.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yeah, there's only three weeks since that. They're very very
poor performance in Wellington, and as you said, when you're
in the midst of eleventh game winning streak against the Wallabies,
it's hard to judge too much on the basis of
that night. You mentioned the spring Box obviously, and while
the All Blacks won in Perth, it wasn't enough to
claim the Rugby Championship, the All Blacks finishing in second.
(17:29):
A couple of hairy moments for the spring Box. They
were down thirteen three at one point Argentina scored a
late try, but ultimately South Africa too good and deserving
winners of going back to back in the Rugby Championship.
They were the best team in the comp. Yes, they
lost two games to the Wallabies in Johannesburg and the
(17:50):
All Blacks in Auckland, but when they're on they're very
hard to stop. The spring Box and worthy winners of
the Rugby Championship.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
They are, indeed, but it did only come via points
differential because of that record loss for the All Blacks
and Wellington, and I think that speaks to the competitive
nature of this tournament. It's been brilliant, hasn't it Very
highly unpredictable, and even that game last night, the Pumbas
(18:18):
are right in it had their chances. So I think
Southern Hemisphere rugby at test levels in a good space.
But I don't think anyone could say that the Springboks
aren't deserving of that title, and the fact they've gone
back to back really does symbolize where the All Blacks
are at I think as well. I think that the
(18:39):
All Blacks that are currently ranked third in the world.
Historically the All Blacks have dominated the Rugby Championship and
that landscape shifted, hasn't it. And it's ironic, isn't it
that the Springboks have only now gone back to back
for the first time in history because the All Blacks
had such a run and it's another trophy in the
(19:03):
cabinet for Russy.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, Russi continues to collect them. Who is your All
Blacks player of the Rugby Championship?
Speaker 4 (19:11):
You might have to go first on this one. It's hard,
isn't because they actually had quite a few changes.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
You know.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Roygal was exceptional at eden Park, but didn't feature a lot.
Leeba Ricarda came in and played really well at the
back end. I'm gonna say, Jordi Barrett, I think from
a consistency point of view, he made some quite talent plays,
not necessarily at his best, but I think at times
(19:41):
he really stood up for the All Blacks in a
really fluctuating tournament.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It is a tricky one, isn't it, Because you look
back right to the start in Argentina feels like a
lifetime ago. I've had that Argentina League and yeah, kember
Guard only played two games there were a Carter came
back in the back end. I would probably go to
po VII. I thought he was good throughout that series.
Obviously didn't play last night in Perth, but ultra consistent
(20:07):
and it's going to be stating to see. I know
he shifted away from that blindside roll during the course
of the tournament, moved to Locke, but he's such an
important part of this team now and now we'll touch
on this on the second half of the podcast in
a moment or two. But him being injured is a
big blow. But trying to pick out an All Blacks
performer of the Rugby Championship quite difficult given the changes,
as you mentioned in fluctuations and form two.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, big time. I thought Ardie severe when he was captain.
It seems to elevate his game to another level. He
had some real inspirational moments you think about, you know,
the turnovers that mattered or the penalties, but probably didn't
reach those heights week to week. So and that's the
(20:50):
same as true of the All Blacks. You know, they
couldn't sustain that level of performance. So it is tough
to pick an individual. I think Lee Roccardo was probably
the biggest mover yep. And for me that's a reflection
on the selection as well, because Lee, Riccardo, Anemoni and
Nadaua were clearly the best wings throughout Super Rugby and
(21:11):
it took the All Black so long to get to
that point. They went with Sevu and Rico and I
understand there's loyalty at that level, but we've seen Lero
Ocarter come in and make a real impression and I
think you could argue they wasted time to get him
into the mix.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, it was felt like there was some loyalty there where. Traditionally,
you know, the Wings have been the hot hands the
players come out of Super Rugby. You think back to
twenty fifteen, I know, near him and the scudd didn't
come into I think the Wallabies test just before the
World Cup. But you know, once he took his chance,
he was in twenty nineteen year George Bridge and Sevarice
came out of Super Rugby playing really really well. And
it feels like they've gone away from that a little
(21:51):
bit in recent times and have been reluctant to do so.
But for me, you feed the hot hand in terms
of the Wings and Super Rugby, and that was Leroy Carter,
that was in Monne Nadawa and now I was seeing,
you know, Caleb Clarke come back in after not a
great Super Rugby season and perform as well. So that's
yea perhaps a conservative nature of Scott Robertson that maybe
we saw the tide change a little bit and last
(22:13):
week potentially with you know, the change at number eight
with Peter Lukeye Quinte Pyra It's center. Maybe this is
the new selection way going forward, which will be you know,
perhaps promising as we hit on the end of your tour.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah, I just think they need to back some players
and that goes back to Reuben Love or a Luckeye.
I thought luck it was really good as ball carrying
as a real point of difference. I'm not sold on
Simon Parker at this point. I feel like that jersey
is still contestable. I think there was one occasion where
(22:48):
he carried really well, but I don't think we're seeing
enough of that side from for a blind sides, you know,
I know it was a difficult night, but fumble one
line out and just hasn't been as prominent as I
would like. So I feel like, could you look at
a loose Ford trio of Peter Luckert number so Titi
(23:09):
at six where he played so well last year Aldie
at seven.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You could do who would you bring off the bench
that regard. Would you bring Parker? Would you Jacobson?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I think there's a few options there.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
You could have a Carefa who probably hasn't transferred his
form to from Superman to Test level. You could have
a Jacobson, maybe a Papa Lege comes again. Somebody's certainly
with a bit of versatility, Parker potentially, But I feel
like that that trio and the midfield.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Up for grabs.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Indeed, well, speaking of the midfield, we spoke to Quenta
Pye after full time last night in that two try performance.
Let's have a listen to that chat.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
Now tries set up another He must be pretty pleased
with that performance.
Speaker 6 (23:57):
Sitting yeah, position, I haven't played a lot yet and
you've got a lot of confidence from a midfield partner
this week and the other boys in the group Billi
and Anton Reggs, So you're pretty pleased with their performance.
Speaker 5 (24:11):
What were the pictures that you were seeing out there
against Australians.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
Yeah, we knew there a bit of a soft defense.
The likes of Sorely and their winners like to make
you dig right into the line, so that's what we
trained this week.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Si.
Speaker 6 (24:25):
You shot out quite a few times, change the picture
on us a little bit that we were in respecting
but likes of guys like Leicster able to fight through
their context.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
So yeah, our statisfying to get the bonus point as well,
and you know, who knows what happened a few hours time,
but wrap up with the private championship with the point.
Speaker 6 (24:44):
Yeah, it gives us a chance. Really George Bower's first
professional try special moment for him and you were seen
the celebrations from the playing group and the bench. We're
pretty pleased with that.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
What sort of adjustments if you particularly when it's like
famillion position.
Speaker 6 (25:02):
Yeah, I guess defensively there's a lot more space to cover,
so out there to chase down Jorgenson a few times.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Not used to that.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
And yeah, it's a little bit tougher defensively, a bit
more space on a tank, which was nice.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
But yeah, and but you still, obviously for the essence
of your game, you powerful carries.
Speaker 6 (25:23):
Yeah, just sort of try to keep it simple. Really,
coaches allowed me to do that. Good game plan. We
want to be physical and fearless, use our forwards up front,
and we had the likes Oflver myself and Leicster. Pretty
keen to just get down hold long of carry, so
I think we showed that to not.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Was a surprise when you got a coffics in it
and is it something you would like to continue.
Speaker 6 (25:49):
To Yeah, it was a surprise. I didn't really expect it.
Monday clarity. I was running on the wing in and
the name got called at center on Tuesday morning with
no heads up, so I was all over my detail thought.
I trained very well there this week. A lot of
confidence going into the game and yeah, I guess happy
to play anywhere for this team. Just pretty keen to
(26:12):
be on the field where that's twelve thirteen when the
twenty two jumpers.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
So yeah, just lastly, does it feel like a good
step forward?
Speaker 4 (26:19):
You know those teams decisions one nice, but to go
back to back how important.
Speaker 6 (26:24):
Yeah, that's something we spoke about. We haven't backed up well.
A big performances at the Eden Park and then fell
off the week after, so very satisfying for the scroup.
It's nice now to have three weeks off and with
their performance it's good slipping stone into the Northern Tour.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
We'll be back with the second half of Rugby Direct
right after this.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Every try try it tends sixty sick. Every tackle, put
back the tackle, get up again a little bit. I
can't an it's Rugby Direct talk. You're back with Rugby Direct.
Couple of final things to wash up with fans. We've
prepared to leave perf Liam. The interview tour squad is
(27:12):
going to be fascinating. There's a few injuries floating about
the All Blacks. We wake up this morning and seeing
that TuS posted on social media that he thinks his
year is done. That's a big blow as they head
into the to the Rugby gest to the Grand Slam.
Torol Lomax possibly out for the year as well, seeing
a specialist this week, but bar should be back for Chicago.
(27:33):
Waiting for the news on that. But there's a few
injuries to juggle. From an All Blacks perspective as they
prepare for this interview tour.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
There is, and I think you're right to provide, is
a massive loss. He was among the All Blacks best
players last year. I don't think we saw the best
of them at Blindside, but when he went back to
Locke he was very prominent. He is a physical presence.
He's great over the ball at the breakdown. That's again
that's an element of his game he's rarely worked on.
(28:03):
He has matured to the point where he is called
the All Blacks line out a number of times this
year and last year, so he's.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
A big out.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
I think they've got Josh Laud in the squad. Maybe
Sam Derry comes back into the mix, but Tupo's hard
to replace because he does a lot and he does
bring a physical presence. And if you look at Fabian
Hollands and Sam Darry, I don't think they bring that
same physical component. Yes, they're great line out figures, but
(28:36):
Tupo does a lot more, brings a lot more around
the field.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
He does Darry I think will come in. I would
like to him. Take a look at Nato Koi as
well in terms of that Tupo Via replacement, that physical
nature that Tupo VI brings with ball in hand, but
also very good at the breakdown. A Koi can play
a bit of six as well. So if you're looking
for a light to light replacement Ikoy I think is
(29:00):
that the guy that maybe comes into the mix for
the end of year too. I don't think he's too
far away. He was in the camp earlier in the
year during the French Series training. I think he's had
a pretty good NPC season from what I've seen, so
he could well be in the mix for the end
of View Tour. They're probably gonna have to dig into
their prop stocks with Lomax and bring someone in there.
(29:21):
Barrett should be fine, Ethn degree to be fine. Caleb
Clark will be fine for the end of View Tour.
Do you see any other changes to this indiview Tour squad?
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Now?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I don't have a number on how many they're selecting,
but it feels like it could go one of two ways.
They could just roll out the same squad that they've taken,
or they could maybe take a few risks. Now, there
are a few guys in this squad that have been
around the environment for a number of years, and to me,
I don't see them ever again. They may have been
(29:50):
in the past, but being features of a Test twenty
three on a regular basis. So I know you're jotting
down to listen there, but is it time to maybe
do you do you roll with those same players or
do you go we know what they can do, but
it's time to bring some new players on the interview tour.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Well, yeah, I was making a list hit just guys
that we haven't seen. Luke Jacobson, Antlina Brown, some a
Penny female, Brodie McAllister's another one. So I think the
question is there has the best superior replacement. So one
area I would like to see the All Blacks move
ons and dead Wood is in the wings. I would
(30:29):
not be selecting several Reese Okay for me, his time's
done and I think there's far more upside and bringing
in a guy like catin Tongueytowl.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Just get him in.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
Maybe only plays against Whales by the end of the year,
but he could be. These are the sort of guys
that could really kick on next year, so I would
like to see that happen. I think I suffer ar
Moore has to come back into the mix for Brodie McAllister.
I'm not too sure about the midfield. I don't think
there's a real I don't think there's anyone bashing down
(31:04):
the door for an Antelina Brown that's going to really
move the needle and the loose forwards. I wouldn't be
against a guy like Papa Lu having a second coming.
I think he's still got a bit to offer at
this level. He's potentially a bit a versatile. But yeah,
what about you do you do? You do you move
on any of those guys? Is there anyone on the
(31:25):
fringe that that you would that's a must have in
the squad that's going to be a game change?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Well that's a tricky thing, isn't They Are there players
knocking on the doors that are worthy of, you know,
moving in. I think Papali given two po vised injury,
given you know, the the uncertainty pat reps over Parker
and now he's not an out and out sex, but
I think he's an ideal bench option potentially dalkon Papaliti
because he can play six, he can obviously play open
(31:50):
side and it push. You could probably put him an
eight as well. And I think he's that player that
is fairly adaptable in a loose ward trio. And look,
didn't have a great Super Rugby season, but he's a
player that I'd be looking at for the end of
year tour. I'm not sure they No hopem is going
to be fit, but I don't see the point in
continuing to carry Finlay Christie. I would either take Kyle
(32:12):
Preston or even look at someone Dylan Pledger as apprentice
type role.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
Yeah, it sounds like Paul Keully was reporting that. It
sounds like he Dylan Pledger will go on the All
Blacks fifteen to I think they played Georgia and England's.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
A I think bath as We I think got three
Barbarians or three games in title.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Yeah, Jamie Joseph leading that team. Dylan Pledger will probably
go on that tour before he plays Super Rugby, which
is a real nod to his talents and pedigree. In time,
I can see it being a roy Garb Pledger double
and that would be a lethal combination.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
So it's probably too soon.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, probably too soon, But I didn't don't see the
point of continuing to carry Finlay Christie.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
I totally agree, and yeah, not too sure where where
Hotham's at. But they will take three half backs, three hookers,
three tens.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
If Reuben love it.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Who knows you're right there? You know, Anton Lenet Brown
it look for me. There was a signal this week
and I may be written too much into it, but
they put Quinte Pier at thirteen. Now anti Lenet Brown
is probably a twelve more so than at thirteen. But
he could have been the solution they found this week
that decided not to that went with Quinta Pie. It
paid off. Now I don't know whether Lenet Brown is
(33:33):
ever going to come again in an All Blacks twenty
three on a regular basis. It feels like he's a
potentially a band aid solution, can come off the bench
and play midfield. But I don't know if he's an
Austrial an impact player either. So for me, the starts,
it doesn't in the twenty three, and I can't justify
a starting role for him at the moment. So there's
not a better option out there. But I just feel
(33:54):
like there are players that have been around this All
Blacks environment for some time that may not ever crack it.
And yeah, they might not be better options out there,
but he better off looking at someone that's sort of
equal or maybe slightly less about you and seeing if
they can make a leap to test rugby and maybe
find themselves at Teas rugby.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
Yeah, I think midfield's in a wee bit of a
state of flux. I mean Jordie's your guy, but centers
very much up for grabs.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
It's just who was knocking on the door.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
I guess now you've got to pie, You've got Lester
fining a NOOKU Billy Proctor will still be in that mix.
And so the other guy spoke about Leonnon Brown. But
where's Ricoania because he was brought back last night, replaced
to PI after about fifty five minutes. But when Caleb
Clark comes back, he's now potentially your third choice. Rico
(34:44):
is potentially your third choice left wing and your third
choice center. So he's gone backwards at a great raid
of knots. He's going to Leicester Leinster next year and
I can see that bear in real challenge given the
bar that Jordi Barrett set there.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
But where's Rico at?
Speaker 2 (35:05):
That's an interesting question, isn't it. And we've seen Rico
you come again. I guess at test level he was
out of favorite twenty nineteen, then twenty twenty, he was
back in the starting side for the All Blacks and
that and that COVID year and had come back into
some real form that season. Maybe the season at Leinster
is probably the best thing for him. Potentially. Now it's
(35:26):
not going to start until after the end of view tour,
but it feels like his rugby career is at a
little bit of a crossroads. They backed him at center
last year fearly unconvincing, moved into left wing this year
fearly unconvincing once again. So where does he fit into
All Blacks back line? Well, there's not a spot in
the first choice team at the moment for him. Can
(35:48):
you come and plug him play a role on the
bench while potentially he can start he plays centric and
play a wing. That's versus Tom Huer. But I'm looking
at lesifying and look and going. He's probably doing that
better than what Rico Juani is at the moment. So
it feels to me like you've probably gone the interview tour,
but almost needs to get to Leinster and find himself again.
If he's to beckonntinuing his test career into twenty twenty
(36:10):
six and beyond.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
Yeah, I think he's probably ahead of Lennard Brown because
of his versatility with the wing options, but currently he
does not make the All Blacks first choice twenty three and.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
That's a harsh reality.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
I think for him to come to terms of at
the moment as well, So yeah, Lenza could be the
making or breaking of could be.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Indeed, before we go, tough week for the old New
Zealand secondary school side. A couple of beltings at the
hands of the Australian under eighteen's worth pointing out that
it's an under eighteen side versus a school side, but
from my understanding, most of those Australian boys are at
school or just leaving. Eighty one forty three I think
(36:51):
it was in the first game, and the second game
yesterday was something like fifty five thirty one or similar.
There's a lot of points to concede and some good
signs for Australia, but some worrying signs for New Zealand
big time.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
Yeah, I mean those are high scores, but to concede
one hundred and thirty odd points in two weeks is
not a great signal for that team and potentially the
future of New Zealand rugby. I mean, there's a bit
of context that we had about schools playing schools and
how many of those players caick on. But that is
(37:26):
essentially the cream of your future generation, right, and yeah,
there'll be players emerge in time and some late bloomers.
They don't all come through that talent ID system, but
it is worrying signs because if you look back, a
lot of New Zealand's best talent has come through the
(37:47):
under twenties when that team was successful, and we've spoken
here about I guess the lack of depth and options
in some positions and the lack of guys really bashing
down the door. So I think there should be concerns
about those results and where that team is at.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, I think there needs to be concerns of New Zealand.
Rugby tried to make it into an under eighteens program.
Secondary schools Blue A Gasket weren't happy with that. I
think there is some real concerns around that pathway and
you know the way that secondary schools operate. Yes, it's
an important part of their DNA, but I think there
are some questions around, especially in the one A area,
(38:30):
just the way that they operate as a cabal. And
I don't like the way that some of the attitudes
taken as prioritizing Rugby sort of over schools and that
sort of thing. So there's a bit to work through
there and digest. But not good science for New Zealand
rugbies and pathways coming through talent identification potentially as well.
(38:51):
You know, it feels like that it's all collected alongside
a real you know, certain group of schools and you
have to go to those schools to be spotted. So yeah,
a lot to work through. I would hasten to add that,
you know, similar to the Outher twenties, there's that this
is the only time that you'll play in this age group,
and you know, from the time you leave the under
twenty New Zealand and twenties wherever it might be, you're
(39:12):
playing into the big boys and there's no age cap
age gap, brother or sorry age cap you know you're
playing a twenty one year old against a twenty nine
year old thirty year old, so it all intermingles in
one but the signs are not particularly good.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
No, And I think when you look back to when
the All Blacks were at their peak, there's a real
correlation there about where the twenties were at as well,
and with the All Blacks stopping back with the lack
of consistency and question marks over where they are at.
And then you look at the future talent coming through,
(39:48):
I think there's a reason to be concerned on that night,
heavy sun there.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah, absolutely we will wrap up Rugby direct there from Perth.
Thanks very much for your company. Will will be back
potentially next week. We're just waiting to hear when the
All Blacks interviewed to a squads name, but will likely
convene for that, but probably won't be in your on
the Monday of next week. We'll take a breather. Also,
we've had request Liam it throws at you right now
(40:14):
to do a bit of a mail bag sort of scenario,
so he might look to do that before the end
of your tour as well, answer some listener questions and
that sort of thing and see what our listeners are thinking.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
So sure, come in hot and heavy and put us
under the grill.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
We'll get an email or something sorted and we'll you
know next time week convene you can get your questions through,
but otherwise we'll take cake we slight breaking back with
you at some point in the niches wee while thanks
to last and Bars English as well for putting this
podcast together and of course Fooklift Solutions lifting you and
your business to a higher level. Over and out from Perth.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
For more from news, talks, ed B Listen live on
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You're listening to a podcast from Newstalks EDB. Follow this
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
Straight down the Middle of Drum Dickney Scy.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Tryst get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby
Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News
Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Folklib Solutions, lifting you
and your business to a higher level. Elliott Smith and
with me Liam Napier, New Zealand Herald Rugby Writer. We
are in Perth on a Sunday morning, about to sign
off from our duties. But we couldn't leave our podcast
family with nothing that listened to before we hit it
(00:58):
back across the ditch. So one more for the ditch,
One for the ditch, Liam, and we sit here on
a Sunday morning, reflected on the All Blacks twenty eight
fourteen win over Australia at OPTAs Stadium in Perth, first
time they got back to back wins in this Rugby Championship.
It was a wets game, especially in the second half.
Conditions didn't come to play as much as probably the
(01:21):
All Blacks or the Wallabies would have liked them too.
But the All Blacks granded out a win twenty eight
to fourteen. What were your initial top line thoughts on
that performance.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
It was a very wet day, wasn't it.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Elliott rain constantly pretty much throughout Saturday and a bit
round today as well, which did make handling difficult.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Look, I think it was a step forward for the
All Blacks.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
They've been searching for that consistency having gone win loss, win, loss,
win loss, but I think it's only a small one.
I'm still not totally convinced about this All Black team.
There were some pleasing aspects, particularly on an individual standpoints.
Quinta pirate Center it was a real standout, particularly given
(02:05):
the fact that it's an unfamiliar position. Talked to him postgame,
didn't we and he talked about he was actually training
on the Monday on the wing, and then he was
named on the Tuesday internally at center with no heads up,
so real surprise to him. So given that context, in
the fact that he'd barely played there in the last
(02:26):
five years, that was a brilliant performance for him. From
a team perspective, I think the All Blacks were on
the rack early, but they found a way through it
and I think tactically in the second half they bossed
the territory.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
They played to the conditions.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Damien McKenzie, who I didn't think had a great match,
did step up and kick a couple of big penalties
and then George Bauer finishes the job at the end
with his first professional try. I think it was in
his one hundred and fortieth first class match, so nice
moment for him. But I think when the All Blacks
sit down to reflect on this Rugby Championship, Scott Barrett
(03:05):
mentioned the fact that there's a few scars there, harsh
lessons and I think it's another underwhelming tournament tournament for
the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, we'll get to those scars in a moment or two. Look,
it wasn't a convincing performance necessarily from the All Blacks.
But even when Australia scored that try to get back
close in the second spell to what was it twenty fourteen,
I think it was I didn't feel like they were
in a huge danger of losing that game. Australia had
(03:38):
that try scrubbed out early on in the game and
that could have changed the momentum. But call back for
the Tom Hooper neck roll Crock Roll. Even when they
scored that try it fell out. The All Blacks just
always had their noses in the front and head the
game and their control. I thought the defense was pretty
good apart from that one blemish later on the game,
(04:00):
but otherwise, when Australia threatened, the All Blacks would always
come up with a way to snuff it out, and
I think that was probably the most pleasing aspect of
the performance. I think attacking wise, there was some glimpses,
some moments where it looked like it was coming together,
but for large periods of the game they weren't able
to really string together attacking phases that hurt the Wallabies.
(04:22):
They were just playing with possession, able to use this
scrum as a weapon for large periods. But it was
a sort of weird performance in anyways, because I felt
never the All Blacks, you know, and even in the
late stagers were in danger of losing, but they didn't
assert their dominance as much as they perhaps could have.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yeah, I think that's fair, And look, the conditions were
a factor, and so was Matthew Carley the referee. He
blew twenty eight penalties and I think we've seen two
weeks in a row, referees become a real focal point
of a stop start, truncated spectacle, and that's a frustration
(04:59):
because these were two teams that did want to play
even in the condition, so that I think that had
an impact. You mentioned the scrum Blocks did use that
well even without Ethan de Groot.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
The line out was a wee bit shaky.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
I thought the Wallabies largely won the breakdown again Fraser mcwright,
a couple of big penalties there so, and I think
we saw the recurrence of some issues under the high
ball without Caleb Clark.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
So there's some common themes there which worry me.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
With the All Blacks to break down the high ball
and the lineout has been a bit shaky this year.
The Wallabies also considered two yellow cards. You mentioned one.
The All Blacks didn't score a point when the Wallabies
would twice down to fourteen men, so I think still
lacking that ruthlessness. But look they scored four tries to
one and there were some really thought some individuals stood up.
(05:54):
And also the context of this is the All Blacks
are missing Bowden, Barrett, Caleb Clark, Ethan de Groot and Tuprouvai,
who sounds like seasons over with the knee injury and Lomax.
So you are to get into your depth, and there
were some players that stood up were mentioned to pire
Lester Finelook, who had a couple of big carries. I
(06:15):
thought Peter Luckeye was really good at number eights, but
then also some questions as well. I don't think Damien
McKenzie took his chance. He was better in the second half,
but he wasn't authoritative, and Ruben Love gets seven or
eight minutes off the bench, and that's clearly a lack
(06:37):
of trust in them. So he still hasn't had any
time at first five and I don't.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Think that was two years for the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I don't think that was the kind of game plan
the game where you could have put him in at ten.
The game was in the balance. I think there was
a feeling that you needed to keep your game driver
in the seat, and disrupting that by bringing in Love
for the closing ten minutes could have actually made things worse. Now.
I don't think Dami ckenzy had a great game either,
(07:04):
but I think if you put Love in in it,
it could disrupt that momentum that the All Blacks have
is they try to close out the game and ultimately
that needs to be the most important thing rather than
getting Love minutes at ten.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Maybe he's been there two years though, and look if
Mackenzie goes down or barretts.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
This is the first year though that he's been seen
as a ten in the All Works environment. Last year
you have a pair of fiddle was around very much.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
You know.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
Yeah, I just think there's a real disparity in the messaging.
You know, bill Blacks are talking about their confidence in
him and how he's doing so well at training, and
then they're not giving him any time at ten. And
I think there is a lack of depth at ten
and he does need some exposure at some point. And
if it wasn't going to come last night, then the
only potential opportunity that I see on the horizon is
(07:56):
maybe against Wales in the last Test of the year.
So there is a scenario where Ruben of Love doesn't
play ten this whole year for the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Again, I mean, he's barely played ten for the Hurricanes,
and you know, there's got He's got a lot of
people out there saying that he should have played ten
in this game alone, but he's you know, only started
really playing there for the Hurricanes and the back end
of that Super Rugby season. There's that enough to be
in All Blacks ten.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
I think then they need to start developing that depth
there because Boden Barracks is what thirty five Damien mckins
is going to be around a while. I know they
getting wrong and back next year, but and behind them
there's a real lack of options I think, so I
would have liked to see them given them the last
(08:40):
ten to fifteen minutes. What about the record eleven in
a row against the Wallabies, that's not all owing to
Scott Robinson. I think that they've got four of those,
but the eclipses the eight to twenty ten and I
guess you know, there has been a real ground swell
around the Wallabies this year on the back of the
(09:02):
British and Irish Lions. They winner Alice Park, but they've
also now lost three in a row and eleven in
a row to the All Blacks and I thought we
saw them slip backed into some pretty bad habits last night.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I was really quite disappointed.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
They started well but they faded really badly, a lot
of ill discipline, a lot of inaccuracy taintied minute ten
was really underwhelming. So I think there's some some worries
there for the Wallabies too.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, Look, I don't think Ben's a Test player. Kuaike
Cooper's came out of the same judgment this morning. I've
been seeing on social media good super rugby player, but
I think is out of his depth at Test level.
And look, there was a big opportunity for him potentially
last night, but I just don't think that he's a
kind of Test ten that the Wallabies need. And I
(09:49):
think there's a big question marks there because James O'Connor
might have played his last Test and maybe they'll get
him out for the end of the year tour potentially,
but with Tom Liner injured and they don't seem to
have a huge amount of trusted him thrust of him
for the Lion series. But I think question marks still
on him. Ben Doaldson not in the squad, carent you
know they're still searching for that ten the Wallabies. So yeah,
(10:12):
I think they took a step backwards. And it's interesting
you mentioned that that winning streak that they've had the
all Blacks over the Wallabies have come with two coaches
that have been under fire for a lot of their tenures.
Ian Foster with what's seven of those wins? I think
last win for the Wallabies was in twenty twenty now
Scott Robertson with the last four since he took charge.
(10:33):
So for all the I guess the clamoring and you
know all the noise last week saying the Bledderslough should
be a three match series. Well, currently the Wallabies are
in their worst ever streak against the All Blacks so
you don't deserve a three match series on that basis.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
No, that's right, and it's I think it's five in
a row. The All Blacks have won on Australian soil
as well, so it's not like that's just happened at
Eden Park or in New Zealand's And the way to
shift that narrative is to get some victories and then
if you have a few drawn series then you have
a lot more clout to push for three matches. It's
hard to fit that in the calendar, but it certainly
(11:09):
strengthens your argument. So the longer that streak goes on,
the longer the All Blacks dominance over the Wallabies continues,
and yeah, I think at the start of this Bleedterslough
most people would have sat back and said, this is
the Wallaby's best chance in probably five years to knock
off the All Blacks and at least one of these
(11:29):
tests and maybe even regain the Bledders.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Though, well, it's been much of the same, isn't.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
It It has? And they go on to interview two. Now,
with three games in a row lost, they play Eddie
Jones's Japan. That'll be a fun game in Tokyo in
two or three weeks time. But yeah, before Josement Hans
the rains over after the Nation's Cup window in July
next year, there's a fabit to work on for the Wallabies.
A couple of plays you mentioned there, leicsterifying Anooka coming
(11:56):
in for his first Test and two years on the
left wing. I thought he had some moments where he
looked really good, didn't come a lot his way in
the second spell, then got subbed and Leroy Carter shifted
over to that left wing. But I thought it was
a promise returned from flying Aku that were glimpses of
what he is able to do. It's interesting. I've got
a theory that he would have started at center last
(12:17):
night if not for Caleb Clark been injured, and that
may not have seen Quinn to Pie play center. He
might have come off the bench again. So they've got
nothing to back up that theory. It's just something I
threw at you a couple of days ago. But Quinta
Pie took his chance. Lester Fightingku sort of took his chance.
But what I think we've saw from last night that
Caleb Clarke will remain the first choice left wing. Leroy
(12:40):
Carter is making great strides at the moment on the
right wing. You know, his strength so close to the line.
He's from Burrow over for that first try for the
All Blacks to put them up and then you can
put fighting a Nuoku on the bench. Does that now mean, though,
that quint to Pire is the first choice center for
the All Blacks on the basis of that.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Performance, not on one game.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
No, But look, I think you can say that Quinn
did more in one test than Billy did in seven
this year. I think Billy has Billy Proctor has been
strong defensively at times. But man, that was a statement
commanding performance from Quinn and it was all over the park.
(13:23):
You know, he had to scramble. Center is an extremely
tough position defensively because you've got so much space on
your outside between yourself and the wing. And he had
Max Jorgensen on his outside a couple of times, who's
one of the quickest Wallabies, maybe one of the quickest
players going around, certainly off the mark, and a couple
(13:43):
of bootlaced tackles, so defensively I thought he was really good.
He shifted into second five a couple of times as well.
He set up Lerocarda's first trial with a massive charge
off the line out defend on Tom Hooper to score
his second try, So it really was the full package.
I was quite surprised to see him replaced stuff to
(14:05):
fifty five minutes, and I think he certainly looked disappointed
coming off. But I think it would be hard to
replace him at center for the next game against Ireland
in Chicago. But I don't think you could sit here
and definitively say that he is the guy.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I agree with you about Leicester.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
I don't think he is a long term wing, starting wing,
and I think if you asked him there I spoke
to him during the week and he certainly said that
his futures in the midfield. He played the back end
of games on the loose forward in the loose forwards
for too long, and I think that's.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
He's comfortable there.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
And we saw one charge where he bumped off Suyer Lee.
That's his strength ball in hands charging. I think he
could be exposed under the high ball, but I did
like the way that the All Black scot him involved.
But I think there's some real options there, aren't there
when you look at that center position. I thought Jordi
Barrett was really good again last night, and that's probably
(15:07):
a reflection of the way too Pier played as well.
It's sort of you made the comment to me that
he probably played a more traditional twelve role and maybe
he was trying to take on too much with Billy
there in recent weeks. I thought he really sparked Bill
Blacks with a couple of rubber kicks to Pire's first try.
I came with the falcon, pretty classic way to get
a try but a luck. But yeah, I thought that
(15:30):
combination worked really well, didn't.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It It did? Yeah, Well, like I think Jury's not
Jury's out still because it's only one Test match and
you know Ireland will be a pretty good Test with
a really strong midfield that they've got, But the Lobbies
have a good midfield as well. You know we heard
before the series Eki Tower and so Elite you were
being talented as one of the best midfield combinations in
the world. Ikitaw sort of tried last night, but I
(15:53):
thought both of them have had two quiet Test matches
and I don't know that Joseph, of course I saw
a Letty's best position is at thirteen.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
No, I agree with you.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
I think I would like to seem at fullback there's
more space you can utilize him under the high Borne well,
I think we only probably or on once in that
challenge with Jordie Barrett really contest like that. He probably
sees a wee bit more ball at center, but you
can get your full back involved more so I would
like to see him slip back to forward.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
The other.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
I think an important piece of context with Phil Blacks
in the past two weeks as they've played the Wallabies twice, right,
and yes they've improved, but they've also lost three in
a row and they're not the spring box, and that
they do things differently. They their defense isn't as suffocating
and I think that particularly in the back climb, and
(16:45):
I think the All Blacks have enjoyed that a bit
more space and freedom. So they're not going to have
that when they come up against Irelands and so those
are things to consider. So while the All Blacks have
improved and they put together back to back performances, they've
both been against the Wallabies, so that leaves me a
little bit reticent to say they're back or they've definitively
(17:08):
shifted the needle.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yeah, there's only three weeks since that. They're very very
poor performance in Wellington, and as you said, when you're
in the midst of eleventh game winning streak against the Wallabies,
it's hard to judge too much on the basis of
that night. You mentioned the spring Box obviously, and while
the All Blacks won in Perth, it wasn't enough to
claim the Rugby Championship, the All Blacks finishing in second.
(17:29):
A couple of hairy moments for the spring Box. They
were down thirteen three at one point Argentina scored a
late try, but ultimately South Africa too good and deserving
winners of going back to back in the Rugby Championship.
They were the best team in the comp. Yes, they
lost two games to the Wallabies in Johannesburg and the
(17:50):
All Blacks in Auckland, but when they're on they're very
hard to stop. The spring Box and worthy winners of
the Rugby Championship.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
They are, indeed, but it did only come via points
differential because of that record loss for the All Blacks
and Wellington, and I think that speaks to the competitive
nature of this tournament. It's been brilliant, hasn't it Very
highly unpredictable, and even that game last night, the Pumbas
(18:18):
are right in it had their chances. So I think
Southern Hemisphere rugby at test levels in a good space.
But I don't think anyone could say that the Springboks
aren't deserving of that title, and the fact they've gone
back to back really does symbolize where the All Blacks
are at I think as well. I think that the
(18:39):
All Blacks that are currently ranked third in the world.
Historically the All Blacks have dominated the Rugby Championship and
that landscape shifted, hasn't it. And it's ironic, isn't it
that the Springboks have only now gone back to back
for the first time in history because the All Blacks
had such a run and it's another trophy in the
(19:03):
cabinet for Russy.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, Russi continues to collect them. Who is your All
Blacks player of the Rugby Championship?
Speaker 4 (19:11):
You might have to go first on this one. It's hard,
isn't because they actually had quite a few changes.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
You know.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Roygal was exceptional at eden Park, but didn't feature a lot.
Leeba Ricarda came in and played really well at the
back end. I'm gonna say, Jordi Barrett, I think from
a consistency point of view, he made some quite talent plays,
not necessarily at his best, but I think at times
(19:41):
he really stood up for the All Blacks in a
really fluctuating tournament.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It is a tricky one, isn't it, Because you look
back right to the start in Argentina feels like a
lifetime ago. I've had that Argentina League and yeah, kember
Guard only played two games there were a Carter came
back in the back end. I would probably go to
po VII. I thought he was good throughout that series.
Obviously didn't play last night in Perth, but ultra consistent
(20:07):
and it's going to be stating to see. I know
he shifted away from that blindside roll during the course
of the tournament, moved to Locke, but he's such an
important part of this team now and now we'll touch
on this on the second half of the podcast in
a moment or two. But him being injured is a
big blow. But trying to pick out an All Blacks
performer of the Rugby Championship quite difficult given the changes,
as you mentioned in fluctuations and form two.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Yeah, big time. I thought Ardie severe when he was captain.
It seems to elevate his game to another level. He
had some real inspirational moments you think about, you know,
the turnovers that mattered or the penalties, but probably didn't
reach those heights week to week. So and that's the
(20:50):
same as true of the All Blacks. You know, they
couldn't sustain that level of performance. So it is tough
to pick an individual. I think Lee Roccardo was probably
the biggest mover yep. And for me that's a reflection
on the selection as well, because Lee, Riccardo, Anemoni and
Nadaua were clearly the best wings throughout Super Rugby and
(21:11):
it took the All Black so long to get to
that point. They went with Sevu and Rico and I
understand there's loyalty at that level, but we've seen Lero
Ocarter come in and make a real impression and I
think you could argue they wasted time to get him
into the mix.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, it was felt like there was some loyalty there where. Traditionally,
you know, the Wings have been the hot hands the
players come out of Super Rugby. You think back to
twenty fifteen, I know, near him and the scudd didn't
come into I think the Wallabies test just before the
World Cup. But you know, once he took his chance,
he was in twenty nineteen year George Bridge and Sevarice
came out of Super Rugby playing really really well. And
it feels like they've gone away from that a little
(21:51):
bit in recent times and have been reluctant to do so.
But for me, you feed the hot hand in terms
of the Wings and Super Rugby, and that was Leroy Carter,
that was in Monne Nadawa and now I was seeing,
you know, Caleb Clarke come back in after not a
great Super Rugby season and perform as well. So that's
yea perhaps a conservative nature of Scott Robertson that maybe
we saw the tide change a little bit and last
(22:13):
week potentially with you know, the change at number eight
with Peter Lukeye Quinte Pyra It's center. Maybe this is
the new selection way going forward, which will be you know,
perhaps promising as we hit on the end of your tour.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah, I just think they need to back some players
and that goes back to Reuben Love or a Luckeye.
I thought luck it was really good as ball carrying
as a real point of difference. I'm not sold on
Simon Parker at this point. I feel like that jersey
is still contestable. I think there was one occasion where
(22:48):
he carried really well, but I don't think we're seeing
enough of that side from for a blind sides, you know,
I know it was a difficult night, but fumble one
line out and just hasn't been as prominent as I
would like. So I feel like, could you look at
a loose Ford trio of Peter Luckert number so Titi
(23:09):
at six where he played so well last year Aldie
at seven.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You could do who would you bring off the bench
that regard. Would you bring Parker? Would you Jacobson?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I think there's a few options there.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
You could have a Carefa who probably hasn't transferred his
form to from Superman to Test level. You could have
a Jacobson, maybe a Papa Lege comes again. Somebody's certainly
with a bit of versatility, Parker potentially, But I feel
like that that trio and the midfield.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Up for grabs.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Indeed, well, speaking of the midfield, we spoke to Quenta
Pye after full time last night in that two try performance.
Let's have a listen to that chat.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
Now tries set up another He must be pretty pleased
with that performance.
Speaker 6 (23:57):
Sitting yeah, position, I haven't played a lot yet and
you've got a lot of confidence from a midfield partner
this week and the other boys in the group Billi
and Anton Reggs, So you're pretty pleased with their performance.
Speaker 5 (24:11):
What were the pictures that you were seeing out there
against Australians.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
Yeah, we knew there a bit of a soft defense.
The likes of Sorely and their winners like to make
you dig right into the line, so that's what we
trained this week.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Si.
Speaker 6 (24:25):
You shot out quite a few times, change the picture
on us a little bit that we were in respecting
but likes of guys like Leicster able to fight through
their context.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
So yeah, our statisfying to get the bonus point as well,
and you know, who knows what happened a few hours time,
but wrap up with the private championship with the point.
Speaker 6 (24:44):
Yeah, it gives us a chance. Really George Bower's first
professional try special moment for him and you were seen
the celebrations from the playing group and the bench. We're
pretty pleased with that.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
What sort of adjustments if you particularly when it's like
famillion position.
Speaker 6 (25:02):
Yeah, I guess defensively there's a lot more space to cover,
so out there to chase down Jorgenson a few times.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Not used to that.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
And yeah, it's a little bit tougher defensively, a bit
more space on a tank, which was nice.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
But yeah, and but you still, obviously for the essence
of your game, you powerful carries.
Speaker 6 (25:23):
Yeah, just sort of try to keep it simple. Really,
coaches allowed me to do that. Good game plan. We
want to be physical and fearless, use our forwards up front,
and we had the likes Oflver myself and Leicster. Pretty
keen to just get down hold long of carry, so
I think we showed that to not.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Was a surprise when you got a coffics in it
and is it something you would like to continue.
Speaker 6 (25:49):
To Yeah, it was a surprise. I didn't really expect it.
Monday clarity. I was running on the wing in and
the name got called at center on Tuesday morning with
no heads up, so I was all over my detail thought.
I trained very well there this week. A lot of
confidence going into the game and yeah, I guess happy
to play anywhere for this team. Just pretty keen to
(26:12):
be on the field where that's twelve thirteen when the
twenty two jumpers.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
So yeah, just lastly, does it feel like a good
step forward?
Speaker 4 (26:19):
You know those teams decisions one nice, but to go
back to back how important.
Speaker 6 (26:24):
Yeah, that's something we spoke about. We haven't backed up well.
A big performances at the Eden Park and then fell
off the week after, so very satisfying for the scroup.
It's nice now to have three weeks off and with
their performance it's good slipping stone into the Northern Tour.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
We'll be back with the second half of Rugby Direct
right after this.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Every try try it tends sixty sick. Every tackle, put
back the tackle, get up again a little bit. I
can't an it's Rugby Direct talk. You're back with Rugby Direct.
Couple of final things to wash up with fans. We've
prepared to leave perf Liam. The interview tour squad is
(27:12):
going to be fascinating. There's a few injuries floating about
the All Blacks. We wake up this morning and seeing
that TuS posted on social media that he thinks his
year is done. That's a big blow as they head
into the to the Rugby gest to the Grand Slam.
Torol Lomax possibly out for the year as well, seeing
a specialist this week, but bar should be back for Chicago.
(27:33):
Waiting for the news on that. But there's a few
injuries to juggle. From an All Blacks perspective as they
prepare for this interview tour.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
There is, and I think you're right to provide, is
a massive loss. He was among the All Blacks best
players last year. I don't think we saw the best
of them at Blindside, but when he went back to
Locke he was very prominent. He is a physical presence.
He's great over the ball at the breakdown. That's again
that's an element of his game he's rarely worked on.
(28:03):
He has matured to the point where he is called
the All Blacks line out a number of times this
year and last year, so he's.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
A big out.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
I think they've got Josh Laud in the squad. Maybe
Sam Derry comes back into the mix, but Tupo's hard
to replace because he does a lot and he does
bring a physical presence. And if you look at Fabian
Hollands and Sam Darry, I don't think they bring that
same physical component. Yes, they're great line out figures, but
(28:36):
Tupo does a lot more, brings a lot more around
the field.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
He does Darry I think will come in. I would
like to him. Take a look at Nato Koi as
well in terms of that Tupo Via replacement, that physical
nature that Tupo VI brings with ball in hand, but
also very good at the breakdown. A Koi can play
a bit of six as well. So if you're looking
for a light to light replacement Ikoy I think is
(29:00):
that the guy that maybe comes into the mix for
the end of year too. I don't think he's too
far away. He was in the camp earlier in the
year during the French Series training. I think he's had
a pretty good NPC season from what I've seen, so
he could well be in the mix for the end
of View Tour. They're probably gonna have to dig into
their prop stocks with Lomax and bring someone in there.
(29:21):
Barrett should be fine, Ethn degree to be fine. Caleb
Clark will be fine for the end of View Tour.
Do you see any other changes to this indiview Tour squad?
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Now?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I don't have a number on how many they're selecting,
but it feels like it could go one of two ways.
They could just roll out the same squad that they've taken,
or they could maybe take a few risks. Now, there
are a few guys in this squad that have been
around the environment for a number of years, and to me,
I don't see them ever again. They may have been
(29:50):
in the past, but being features of a Test twenty
three on a regular basis. So I know you're jotting
down to listen there, but is it time to maybe
do you do you roll with those same players or
do you go we know what they can do, but
it's time to bring some new players on the interview tour.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Well, yeah, I was making a list hit just guys
that we haven't seen. Luke Jacobson, Antlina Brown, some a
Penny female, Brodie McAllister's another one. So I think the
question is there has the best superior replacement. So one
area I would like to see the All Blacks move
ons and dead Wood is in the wings. I would
(30:29):
not be selecting several Reese Okay for me, his time's
done and I think there's far more upside and bringing
in a guy like catin Tongueytowl.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Just get him in.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
Maybe only plays against Whales by the end of the year,
but he could be. These are the sort of guys
that could really kick on next year, so I would
like to see that happen. I think I suffer ar
Moore has to come back into the mix for Brodie McAllister.
I'm not too sure about the midfield. I don't think
there's a real I don't think there's anyone bashing down
(31:04):
the door for an Antelina Brown that's going to really
move the needle and the loose forwards. I wouldn't be
against a guy like Papa Lu having a second coming.
I think he's still got a bit to offer at
this level. He's potentially a bit a versatile. But yeah,
what about you do you do? You do you move
on any of those guys? Is there anyone on the
(31:25):
fringe that that you would that's a must have in
the squad that's going to be a game change?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Well that's a tricky thing, isn't They Are there players
knocking on the doors that are worthy of, you know,
moving in. I think Papali given two po vised injury,
given you know, the the uncertainty pat reps over Parker
and now he's not an out and out sex, but
I think he's an ideal bench option potentially dalkon Papaliti
because he can play six, he can obviously play open
(31:50):
side and it push. You could probably put him an
eight as well. And I think he's that player that
is fairly adaptable in a loose ward trio. And look,
didn't have a great Super Rugby season, but he's a
player that I'd be looking at for the end of
year tour. I'm not sure they No hopem is going
to be fit, but I don't see the point in
continuing to carry Finlay Christie. I would either take Kyle
(32:12):
Preston or even look at someone Dylan Pledger as apprentice
type role.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
Yeah, it sounds like Paul Keully was reporting that. It
sounds like he Dylan Pledger will go on the All
Blacks fifteen to I think they played Georgia and England's.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
A I think bath as We I think got three
Barbarians or three games in title.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Yeah, Jamie Joseph leading that team. Dylan Pledger will probably
go on that tour before he plays Super Rugby, which
is a real nod to his talents and pedigree. In time,
I can see it being a roy Garb Pledger double
and that would be a lethal combination.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
So it's probably too soon.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, probably too soon, But I didn't don't see the
point of continuing to carry Finlay Christie.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
I totally agree, and yeah, not too sure where where
Hotham's at. But they will take three half backs, three hookers,
three tens.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
If Reuben love it.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Who knows you're right there? You know, Anton Lenet Brown
it look for me. There was a signal this week
and I may be written too much into it, but
they put Quinte Pier at thirteen. Now anti Lenet Brown
is probably a twelve more so than at thirteen. But
he could have been the solution they found this week
that decided not to that went with Quinta Pie. It
paid off. Now I don't know whether Lenet Brown is
(33:33):
ever going to come again in an All Blacks twenty
three on a regular basis. It feels like he's a
potentially a band aid solution, can come off the bench
and play midfield. But I don't know if he's an
Austrial an impact player either. So for me, the starts,
it doesn't in the twenty three, and I can't justify
a starting role for him at the moment. So there's
not a better option out there. But I just feel
(33:54):
like there are players that have been around this All
Blacks environment for some time that may not ever crack it.
And yeah, they might not be better options out there,
but he better off looking at someone that's sort of
equal or maybe slightly less about you and seeing if
they can make a leap to test rugby and maybe
find themselves at Teas rugby.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
Yeah, I think midfield's in a wee bit of a
state of flux. I mean Jordie's your guy, but centers
very much up for grabs.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
It's just who was knocking on the door.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
I guess now you've got to pie, You've got Lester
fining a NOOKU Billy Proctor will still be in that mix.
And so the other guy spoke about Leonnon Brown. But
where's Ricoania because he was brought back last night, replaced
to PI after about fifty five minutes. But when Caleb
Clark comes back, he's now potentially your third choice. Rico
(34:44):
is potentially your third choice left wing and your third
choice center. So he's gone backwards at a great raid
of knots. He's going to Leicester Leinster next year and
I can see that bear in real challenge given the
bar that Jordi Barrett set there.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
But where's Rico at?
Speaker 2 (35:05):
That's an interesting question, isn't it. And we've seen Rico
you come again. I guess at test level he was
out of favorite twenty nineteen, then twenty twenty, he was
back in the starting side for the All Blacks and
that and that COVID year and had come back into
some real form that season. Maybe the season at Leinster
is probably the best thing for him. Potentially. Now it's
(35:26):
not going to start until after the end of view tour,
but it feels like his rugby career is at a
little bit of a crossroads. They backed him at center
last year fearly unconvincing, moved into left wing this year
fearly unconvincing once again. So where does he fit into
All Blacks back line? Well, there's not a spot in
the first choice team at the moment for him. Can
(35:48):
you come and plug him play a role on the
bench while potentially he can start he plays centric and
play a wing. That's versus Tom Huer. But I'm looking
at lesifying and look and going. He's probably doing that
better than what Rico Juani is at the moment. So
it feels to me like you've probably gone the interview tour,
but almost needs to get to Leinster and find himself again.
If he's to beckonntinuing his test career into twenty twenty
(36:10):
six and beyond.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
Yeah, I think he's probably ahead of Lennard Brown because
of his versatility with the wing options, but currently he
does not make the All Blacks first choice twenty three and.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
That's a harsh reality.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
I think for him to come to terms of at
the moment as well, So yeah, Lenza could be the
making or breaking of could be.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Indeed, before we go, tough week for the old New
Zealand secondary school side. A couple of beltings at the
hands of the Australian under eighteen's worth pointing out that
it's an under eighteen side versus a school side, but
from my understanding, most of those Australian boys are at
school or just leaving. Eighty one forty three I think
(36:51):
it was in the first game, and the second game
yesterday was something like fifty five thirty one or similar.
There's a lot of points to concede and some good
signs for Australia, but some worrying signs for New Zealand
big time.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
Yeah, I mean those are high scores, but to concede
one hundred and thirty odd points in two weeks is
not a great signal for that team and potentially the
future of New Zealand rugby. I mean, there's a bit
of context that we had about schools playing schools and
how many of those players caick on. But that is
(37:26):
essentially the cream of your future generation, right, and yeah,
there'll be players emerge in time and some late bloomers.
They don't all come through that talent ID system, but
it is worrying signs because if you look back, a
lot of New Zealand's best talent has come through the
(37:47):
under twenties when that team was successful, and we've spoken
here about I guess the lack of depth and options
in some positions and the lack of guys really bashing
down the door. So I think there should be concerns
about those results and where that team is at.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, I think there needs to be concerns of New Zealand.
Rugby tried to make it into an under eighteens program.
Secondary schools Blue A Gasket weren't happy with that. I
think there is some real concerns around that pathway and
you know the way that secondary schools operate. Yes, it's
an important part of their DNA, but I think there
are some questions around, especially in the one A area,
(38:30):
just the way that they operate as a cabal. And
I don't like the way that some of the attitudes
taken as prioritizing Rugby sort of over schools and that
sort of thing. So there's a bit to work through
there and digest. But not good science for New Zealand
rugbies and pathways coming through talent identification potentially as well.
(38:51):
You know, it feels like that it's all collected alongside
a real you know, certain group of schools and you
have to go to those schools to be spotted. So yeah,
a lot to work through. I would hasten to add that,
you know, similar to the Outher twenties, there's that this
is the only time that you'll play in this age group,
and you know, from the time you leave the under
twenty New Zealand and twenties wherever it might be, you're
(39:12):
playing into the big boys and there's no age cap
age gap, brother or sorry age cap you know you're
playing a twenty one year old against a twenty nine
year old thirty year old, so it all intermingles in
one but the signs are not particularly good.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
No, And I think when you look back to when
the All Blacks were at their peak, there's a real
correlation there about where the twenties were at as well,
and with the All Blacks stopping back with the lack
of consistency and question marks over where they are at.
And then you look at the future talent coming through,
(39:48):
I think there's a reason to be concerned on that night,
heavy sun there.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah, absolutely we will wrap up Rugby direct there from Perth.
Thanks very much for your company. Will will be back
potentially next week. We're just waiting to hear when the
All Blacks interviewed to a squads name, but will likely
convene for that, but probably won't be in your on
the Monday of next week. We'll take a breather. Also,
we've had request Liam it throws at you right now
(40:14):
to do a bit of a mail bag sort of scenario,
so he might look to do that before the end
of your tour as well, answer some listener questions and
that sort of thing and see what our listeners are thinking.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
So sure, come in hot and heavy and put us
under the grill.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
We'll get an email or something sorted and we'll you
know next time week convene you can get your questions through,
but otherwise we'll take cake we slight breaking back with
you at some point in the niches wee while thanks
to last and Bars English as well for putting this
podcast together and of course Fooklift Solutions lifting you and
your business to a higher level. Over and out from Perth.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
For more from news, talks, ed B Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
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