December 7, 2025 • 39 mins
On the final Rugby Direct for the year, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier return from Europe and some time away to review the All Blacks' season - what needs work, what went right and what are the big fixes required ahead of 2026.
We also look at the Rugby World Cup draw for 2027, assess the state of New Zealand Rugby as a whole and the big issues confronting the game over the Christmas break.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
Straight down the Middle of.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
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Speaker 1 (00:29):
Inside the Game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct with
Elliot Smith and Liam Napier powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Excess Solutions, celebrating twenty
five years in business. Elliott Smith with me Liam Napier,
back for one last time in season twenty twenty five. Liam,
good to catch up. As always, It's been a couple
of weeks since we got behind the podcast microphones. We
(00:58):
had the all Black Speeding Wales and we took some
time to wrist and recover and here we are back
for one last time. As I said, anything you want
to touch on from the Welsh performance before we get
into the podcast itself.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
One last rides. Oh look, it was great to be
backing Sunny Cardiff had a great week there. The match
itself probably went as expected, didn't it. The team that
was rolled out a lot of opportunities handed. I think
it probably summed up the year in some ways. While
(01:30):
I was scoring the second most points in history against
the All Blacks, the All Black's running up a bit
of a score. I don't know if there was too
much you could take out of it for the context
of the season.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
It was.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
A pretty somber week, a bit of an edgy week
from a media perspective with the All Blacks and the
recriminations I guess had sort of started post Twickenham, so
I'm sure get stuck into a bit of that.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Well list did that now before we get to the
World Cup draw and the All Blacks finishing the year
with a ten W three loss record. There's been a
lot of articles written in the last couple of weeks
about where to next for this All Blacks team. Do
they need to change the coaching lineup, do they need
to make drastic changes? Where do you sit at this
(02:17):
point in time, because I think there has to be
some form of change. I think you'd struggle to make
compelling arguments that they're contracted to win that series the
greatest rivalry next year. I think you'd struggle to go
that there'd be able to progress past the Rugby World
Cup quarter final, which we'll get to, as I said
in a few moments time. So have there been enough
(02:38):
improvements from this All Blacks team, and do you think
there needs to be some change as we move towards
twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, let's unpack. I guess year two and that record.
They're ten and three. It's probably knots as good as
it sounds to a degree. I don't want to be
totally negative, so we'll talk some positives. But July France
in our very sick and string team, the All Blacks
ands and rugby had nothing to do with that. You
can only play who's in front of you. But there's
(03:06):
three victories straight off the bat. The All Blacks had
some challenges there as well, so look in the context
of the year. The notable wins were the spring Box
at Eden Park, and it's easy to forget the cacophony
of criticism and the intense backdrop around that following the
first loss in Argentina. So that was a big tick,
(03:26):
a big win for Scott Robinson at the time back's
massively pressed to the wall. The victory over Ireland in
Chicago the other probably notable one. And then the three
losses stand out, don't they not just for the defeats
but the nature of them and when I look over
the course of the All Black Sea, I think I
(03:47):
can't see a case for progress. I think depth has
been grown in some areas in most areas, and Robinson
has progressed his four four four plan. But when you
look at that England performance that's the ultimate match of
the year. Yes, the All Blacks are missing some big
outs from an injury perspective would have made a difference.
(04:10):
But I just I can't shake the sense of stagnation
and even coming home from the tour and speaking to
people around the team involved the team. I also think
about two assistant coaches from that group leaving voluntarily with
no with no job to go to. I've heard growing
(04:33):
murmurs of unhappiness from the playing group senior players that
the nots satisfied with communication, trust strategy. So I do.
I have come to the conclusion that I do feel
like there are major changes needed, either with the way
(04:54):
that coaching teams run or personnel. With Jason Holland leaving,
I think they will look to bring in a high
ball kicking specialist. For me, that just that that there's
not going to be an enough to really push and
transform the team and make the changes that are needed.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I think you're right. We've talked a bit about this
on the podcast, around the division of labor when Jason
Holland first left, and whether he was assigned enough to do,
whether he felt like he had enough to do, whether
some of the other coaches were taking on too much responsibility.
And I don't think they've got that right. And you know, naturally,
when you have a losing record, and they don't have
a losing record, but they've lost some big games, that's
(05:37):
when it comes under script and you can run the
team however you like when you're winning and everything's fantastic,
but when you're not winning the games that you're expected to,
that's when you come under some forms of criticism. And
I think that's only natural from an All Blacks perspective.
And I don't think, as you say, adding a kicking
coach is going to be enough to reshape the team,
because what we've seen in the last two years doesn't
(05:59):
give you the confidence that they are on the right
track and they're a moment away from discovering all the answers.
They've built some depth, and they've done well to do
that because they haven't had a lot of games against
tear two opposition that naturally you'd find players give an opportunity,
so they've had to learn on the run. But I
also feel as well that they haven't advanced the game plan.
(06:20):
I look at the All Blacks and go, do we
know the way that the All Blacks want to play?
Do we know the ideal scenarigo that if they're playing
their best rugby, this is the shape that the All
Blacks want to play in. I think we've got half
an idea. We've seen them use the props as first
receivers with those soft hands out the back. But to me,
it feels like the game plan has the players basically
(06:42):
from standing starts or little motion, whereas Scotland and England
attack them with players in motion bodies, you know, flying
through the line, putting the defense under pressure. So I
don't see the All Blacks having the kind of game
plan that goes that's All Blacks rugby. That's the way
they want to plan that on its day is going
to be good to win, you know, eighty to ninety
percent of test matches. I just don't see it at
(07:03):
the moment. So for me, you look at who's controlling
the game plan and a lot of that's around Scott Hansen,
who drives a lot of the game plan and there's
been articles written from New Zealand hero around you know
how much say he has in the game as well.
I think potentially you need to look at the game
plan and go is that the right game plan, who's
delivering it? And make some tweaks there. I think they
(07:27):
desperately need some work on, you know, fixing the structure
of the team, whether it goes back to attacking coach
or a backs coach Jason Ryan. There is a Fords coach.
You've got your head coach in Scott Robertson, and divide
the laborer up a little more evenly. I just don't
think that that coaching set up is the right one.
And I've never been a high performance coach and never
(07:49):
been a high performance athlete. But from the outside looking in,
I don't think they've got the structure right as it stands.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
No, I agree, Look, there were positives of the All
Blacks game. The line out was largely a success this year.
I think Brent Evens inclusion in the coaching team is
a big tick, particularly when Scott Barrett's Patrick two plot
and to provide miss large chunks of the season. You know,
(08:14):
you had Josh Lord's and Fabian Holland come in and
big responsibility on young shoulders, so the line out worked well.
I think also from a progression and depth perspective, Fabian
Holland's Peter Luckeye, Pasilio Tossi or three standouts all in
the forward pack. But the attack is a massive issue,
(08:37):
a consistent issue, and New Zealand should be just given
the mindsets, the approach to the game ball in hands
USA ball. You know, I don't particularly like the word
DNA necessarily, but that's how all blacks New Zealand ragby
(08:57):
players men and women love to play the game and
they're not harnessing the tools at their exposure. Their attack
has started all year and so that's a major red flag,
and it's a major read flag because Liam McDonald was
the attack coach and he left because he wasn't happy
Jason Hollands. I don't know this definitively, but I've had
(09:20):
a number of people say he left because he was
effectively marginalized and didn't have a great say in the attack.
So that adds to that portfolio issue. And then you've
got recurring themes the third quarter fades, so what's happening
at halftime? Why can't you solve those issues? The high
ball was another one. I think even the scrum platform,
(09:42):
the propping stocks are great and there's real depth there,
but against England and South Africa we're a bit wobbly.
So major improvements across the board, particularly when you look
ahead to next year seventeen game program four against the
World Champions, three of those in South Africa. That's pretty
daunting right now, I think. And that's the lens with
(10:04):
which should be viewed. Now, what about this review we've got.
Mike Anthony is going to be leading it. I'm not
too sure who else is involved. He's been the head
of High Performance or the equivalent for a long time.
He has quite a long existing relationship with Scott Robertson,
(10:24):
so maybe you'd like a bit more independence involved in
that review. Mike Anthony was toured with the All Blacks
on the Grand Slam Tour, so he was getting consistent
feedback throughout. How do you expect the review to run
and would you have major concerns if the player feedback
(10:44):
is as of sort of conveyed it.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Well we know back in twenty twenty one in Ian
Foster's ere there was some sharp feedback given around the
coaching they were getting. And the message that was given
at the time by some of them was that they
were getting better coaching at the Super Rugby franchise and
they were getting an all backs camp. But I mean
that around some of the detail coaching when you get
down to the nitty gritty, not so much the head coaching.
And there's a lot of respect obviously for Ian Foster
(11:11):
in that playing group, but it was targeted towards the
assistant coaches. They stayed with the assistant coaches and then
a few months later had to get rid of them
and say cyanara to Brad More and John Plumtree. So
this is a review. They do it at the end
of every season, so it's not new necessarily, but because
of the nature and where the All Blacks find themselves,
(11:32):
it takes on extra importance. And you hope it is honest,
You hope it's robust. You hope that everything's put out
on the table because you'd hate to get to another
year down and go, boy, I wish you made some changes,
significant changes at the start of twenty twenty six, rather
than trying to scramble in a start of a World
Cup year. So you hope it's robust and that everything's
on the table around the structure of the coaches, whether
(11:55):
the players you know, need to put a few you know,
their hands up and say we're not delivering the game
plan or you know we're not across the details that
we should be around that, so you know the coach
is coming for a lot of stick. But there's also
you know, perhaps some players that need to some accountability
on the board. I guess whether it'll be a direct
result from a review is remains to be seen. Whether
(12:16):
we hear any of the details publicly remains to be seen.
Sometimes some of those details leak out. But you just
hope it's open and honest, and if there are recommendations
for changes, that they're implemented. Because you don't want to
waste a good crisis. That's what a lot of business
leaders say. This isn't a crisis necessarily, but again you
don't want to be looking back and going, geez, they've
(12:37):
gone and lost four nil to South Africa. What are
we going to do a year out from a Rugby
World Cup so make any changes that need to be
made now and get them in place for me. I think,
you know, I'd like to see a more clearly defined
coaching structure in the team. You know, I don't you know,
Scott Robs is not going to go, but I do
wonder whether they need to have a specialist attack coach
(12:57):
and take some of that responsibility away from Scott Hansen.
Maybe he gets basically moved into it an assistant coaching
role or you know, similar role. I'm not sure, but
I don't know who's out there. You know, we've spit
board a few names over dinner and various things in
Cardiff as to who might be around. But I'd like
to see a traditional attack coach come into the structure
(13:19):
that can drive that. And you know, Kendrick Lynn out
of Argentina is the name. I'm not sure how long
he's contracted for. Tyler Blindell was at Leinster. I knows
he's highly regarded as well. You just don't know how
long people are contracted, what causes they've gotten their contracts.
But as I say, to circle back to your original question,
make sure you just don't waste what's in front of
(13:40):
you here and make sure you're making the right decisions
for this All Blacks team.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah, it's a very good point, isn't it. Learn from
history and be open to feedback and change because people
can be very resistant to change. But I think from
my perspective, it's very evident that something's not right and
something is not working within the All Black team, and
a ten to three record is far from terminal. But
(14:05):
you drill down into that, you look at the the
French series and the consistent issues, the lack of progress
and the player feedback. I think something needs to change.
Look when you talk about the alternatives, I guess even
Jamie Joseph has been talked about as an alternative at
(14:26):
this point without Tony Brown not hugely compelling. I would
love to see a guy like Joe Schmitt added, but
that's not going to happen. He was alienated during Robertson's
appointment process with the m Foster still at the Helm
while Schmidt was assistant, which is a great shame to
push away such a great rugby mind who is finishing
(14:50):
with the Wallabies soon. Wayne Smith has been involved, but
on a very limited basis. I think he was involved
with the Springboks test at Eden Park and the Wallabies
test in Wellington, so very much at arm's length, and
I think he's at a stage in life and career
where he wouldn't want to be involved more consistently, So
(15:13):
there's not a pathora of options out there there. There's
Andrew Goodman up in Irelands who's quite highly regarded while
and aren't going particularly well at the moment either. I
guess there's a few people in Japan as well, Dave
Rennie and co. But I think at this point New
(15:33):
zeal Rugby is typically a very conservative organization, aren't they,
and so I think they'll probably be given a stay
of execution maybe the South African tour. They might be
given some expectations around results. For me, that's waiting a
bit long watch the.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Space on that front. Russia Rausmus incidentally handed in a
four year extension, so he's now contracted for the next
six years through to twenty thirty.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
One, which is signver going to retire right REMARKA.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Well, I think he's just going to be the Springbok
coaching perpetuity until basically he goes out of there in
a coffin. And why not because he is clearly the
best coaching game at the moment in the men's game,
and would you change absolutely through to twenty thirty one,
which is a daunting prospect for every other team in
the world.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Does There's a bit of chat that his delay in
resigning was linked to his assistants. Do we expect Tony
Brown and co. There's been a bit of talk about
Jacques Nebina coming back from Leinster as well. How do
you see all that?
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Well, yeah, it was interesting. I looked at the media
release and they said, announcements are of the assistant coaches
we made in due course. You know, for for a
head coach, maybe it's a bit easier to sign on
for twenty thirty one. Assistant coaches might not be as
keen to sign on for six years. Some of them
will have aspirations to be head coaches, I am sure
elsewhere or head back to family or Jerry Flannery's in
(16:49):
there whether he wants to know, back to Eirel or
whatever it might be. So watch this space, I guess
on that front. But twenty thirty one, let's talk about
twenty twenty seven and the Ruggy Will Cup drawer has
been made and we know the all Blacks have the
Wallabies in Paul play maybe the opening game, maybe not.
I've heard mixed things and I I Peyton last week
sudused to that it might end up being at the
(17:11):
MCG in week two or three, so it might not
be the blockbuster opener that many are expecting.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
That would sort of make sense because your opening game
sells out regardless, hope.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
So even if it's Wallaby is sort of Chili or
Hong Kong.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I think if people want to be involved, it's an.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Occasion, they'll have the opening cerameter beforehand and those sort
of things. But as it stands, look if they all
Blacks are good enough to beat the Wallabies and therefore
and also beat Hong Kong and Chile, and then so
that forgot to help us. Well, look, you know there's
a lot of water to go on the bridge that exapply.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Is they could be some blood bus Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Unfortunately and afteria match that then they're on a collision
course for a quarter final.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
This what do you like?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
What do you make of? I guess that the way
that this has gone about.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Ah, that's absurd. Yeah, How does World rugby take something
that could be so simple and make it so frustrating tennis. Basically,
most other sports seed their teams. Why have world rankings
that if they are going to be irrelevant for your
global showpiece? Yeah, look, the rankings could change between now
(18:20):
and the World Cup as it stands, and I don't
actually agree with the rankings at the moment. I think
the All Black should be a but lower. They lost
to England to a ranked third. As it stands, the
Blacks two, South Africa one, and they are highly likely
to meet in this quarterfinal. That should not happen for
your global showpiece. The two best teams, one of them
going home. And we had a lot of that four
(18:41):
years ago or by the time this Nick's World Cup
rolls around. How do you not just just seed the
top four teams and have them in opposing quarterfinals provided
they win their pools.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
It's not that hard, No, it's this was the moment
that wild rugby firmly lost the plot, I have to say,
and going to twenty four teams, they don't have the
depth to go to twenty four teams. I'm sorry. This
is not a global game that rugby believes it is,
world rugby believes it is.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Is it just a cash grape more games.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Probably, Yeah, it's more games for the broadcasters around the globe.
There's more knockout games, so in theory there's more jeopardy
in there. But you do not have the quality to
go to twenty four teams. I'm sorry. You can talk
about growing the game and maybe this is them just
throwing a bone.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
It's complete lips of this because what do they do
outside of World Cups for those teams totally? If anything,
it's getting worse with the Nation's championship and so.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
What they've done here is make a mockery of the
World Cup. They've at it in a round of sixteen,
and you know you're gonna have a you know, the
current World Cup in terms of the twenty teams, your
farewell twelve teams when you went into the knockout stage.
Now you've got a round of sixteen. There's only eight
teams that go home before that round of sixteen, so
there's very little on the pool stage. The All Blacks
(19:55):
already know that Warby's not every team therefore knows it.
You know the path, you know, so far out from
a World Cup, and you're right, there should be some
protection there for that mythical top six that they talked about.
You know you want to protection, Well, it's not about
just the all blacks space in the spring box. It's
about the quality of the competition and making sure that
(20:16):
you have the best games deeper into the tournament. So
I firmly believe this is a shamboic tournaments structure from
World Rugby. For me, look, if you want to have
a round of sixteen, I would reced after the pool
stage and go, this was the best performing pool team,
one points different whatever it is they won. So let's
(20:39):
say South Africa, you know, put some points on they
are seated one. The lowest team to qualify. Sixteenth one
play sixteen. You have eight games, you put them all
in one venue over the course of a weekend, you know,
four games, three games a day, whatever is over four
days and it's all in Perth. It's all in Melbourne.
So teams know where they're going to be, so it's
not like they're having to factor that and necessarily. But
(21:02):
I think this is just an absolute shocker from World rugby.
And you know you talk luck of the draw, well,
very much is for some times and very much is
for some others.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
That's right. I think it is Look, well, I'm going
to shoot down the tym for a hat brigade here
that say it's a big conspiracy and World Rugby one
on Northern Hemisphere winner. That's not true at all. This
is completely random. There is a lot of luck in it.
But the only benefit to this style of World Cup,
as I think, it's despite having more teams, it's a
(21:32):
bit shorter. So that's the only benefits. I think the
team should be seeded and it does like your suggestion,
puts a lot more on the on the pool stages
because you have a scenario where even Italy could rest
their top team playing the spring box to make ensure
(21:54):
they win the other two pool matches. It's going to
be a pretty painful pool stage. The other point is
FIFA did their draw six months out from their tournaments.
World Rugby do it two years? One is bigger than
the other two. Why, Like you've shortened it by a
(22:16):
year because of all the massive criticism you copped for
the last tournament in France. Doing it three years out
two years isn't much better. If football can do it,
why can't rugby?
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Yeah? I don't get that in the slightest I know
you know the Basically the chatter is that you know,
all the English fans and stuff go spin their pounds
and booking for travel packages and.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Things, and the teams want to know logistics.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
But well, I'm sure teams want to know logistics and
they are able to provide that by going this pool
is going to play in this spot. This pool is
going to plan this spot and you can do that
with rugby as well. So look, I yeah this, and
look I don't think it's wreched, but there's something weird
about the All Blacks in Australia being in one pool,
England being in the same pool as Wales, Ireland Scotland.
(23:01):
I'm not sure where the TV rights have been sold
for the UK and Ireland as yet.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
But as worked out well, isn't it. And that's the
other point that we need to make is this tournament
is absolutely set up for England. Yeah, and I think
it's lucky the draw, but it is absolute luck. So
as it stands, if they win their pool, they avoid
the All Blacks, South Africa and France until the semi finals.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Just for the record, if you had as seated the
pools seeded, Yeah, the top teams in the pools a
likely quarterfinals South Africa, Fiji, Scotland, Ireland, France or Japan, England,
Argentina or Wales, New Zealand, Australia and Italy, which to
me seems much more logical.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Totally. I mean, I just don't see why they've gone
from twenty teams at all. To be honest, I think
wild rugby pays lip service to growing the game. This
is one easy box so they can go, oh, we
can say we're growing the game. They also you know,
blood referees from emerging nations and go oh with you know,
you know, but from Georgia and Andrea Piatia are coming in.
That's growing the game there. It's absolute rubbish and all
(24:14):
you're doing is hamstringing your event for the sake of
pretending that you're growing the game. So I think world
rugby has had an absolute shocker.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
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Every try try and sixty sick, every tackle, put.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Tack, the tackles get up again before time.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
It's Rugby Direct.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Talk the game in New Zealand as a whole as
we head into twenty twenty six and a little bit
of state of flux. We've got a chief executive that
has yet to be appointed. There was a lot of
suggestions they wanted to see you are appointed by Christmas
while we're recording this in the eighth of December, running
out of a little bit of time. They've got a
little bit of time still to make that appointment or
announce that appointment. But I think a bit of state
(25:01):
of flux just with where things are out. They'll be
happy they've got the TV deal signed away with Sky,
but there are some chain, you know, things in the
in the world game that are coming, and obviously a
new CEO that needs to come in and a couple
of other appointments as well.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Then, yeah, massive appointments in terms of where the game
in New Zealand goes, how it's run. I think there's
three executive appointments basically, and you need to start with
the CEO first and foremost. It's been widely reported that
Tom Harrison that the Six Nations CEO is the front
runner for that. Who's the cricket David David White. David
(25:40):
White is another one, so I heard last time they
were down to the final three. Sean Marx is definitely
not one and that was.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
A reporter over the weekend that Sean Marx wasn't was
in the mix. So your understanding is that he's not
not true.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I made some inquiries along those lines a couple of
weeks ago and it was while we're in the UK. Yeah, yeah,
didn't come to anything and so it won't be sure.
Marks could be Tom Harrison massive appointment in terms of
taking charge and look, yeah, New Zealand rugby isn't a
bit of a state of flux. There's so many realms
(26:17):
to it. I think you look at it's not a
total picture, but even the Ossie schools and New Zealand's
I need to get around the right way under eighteens
on schools. Those results this year sparked a bit of
alarm about TELL and identification and developments. I know there's
(26:40):
a bit of work keeping there in the in the
around the super rugby teams and getting that competition off
the grounds. You've got issues around the women's game as well.
I was speaking to someone over the past couple of days.
Over the weekends there's big clashes with Fara, Palmer Cup
and Club Rugby and Alpacky and a lot of provincial
(27:03):
union's unhappy with how that's playing out.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Yeah, they hadn't mind saying is they don't have a
lot of say and because they've got the change of
the global calendar for the women's game has shunted a
few things around the place, but it's going to hurt
Club Rugby absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah. And I think something like seventy eight of players
and the Fara Palmer Cup come from schools, the teenagers basically,
so big big challenges there. And the All Blacks you know,
they're the money making beast that runs the game. And
I hate the word aura, but the fear factor with
(27:42):
the All Blacks has gone. And if a bit of
that mystique, a bit of that nostalgia you know, that's
marketed and sold around the world. If they don't start
consistently winning, that can have a big material impact.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
There's still enough brands to that want to be connected
with New ze ond rugby.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
And I think that the demise of rugby is a
bit overblown. There's there's massive interest in the game and
you can see that when things don't go well mostly,
but there's always challenges around teenage boys and retention of them.
So yeah, some big ticket items to sort out in
the coming years. But I think from a revenue perspective,
(28:22):
they've done really well to cover some big absences, haven't they.
With some big name sponsors exiting this year.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
They have, and you're right, they sell this on the
legacy of the All Blacks and you know winning. That's
the mantra they have, and that's how they go to
brands overseas and go, this is what you want, we
want you to be part of, and this is the
check that we would like, thank you very much. And
when you start to chip away that it's inevitable that,
you know, people will drive down the amount of money
(28:52):
they're willing to pay to part part money with to
sponsor teams. And I think that's only natural. So when
it's the show piece, you've got to put up and
get the results or else the money starts to drift away.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I know.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Hearing from Mark Robinson and his excellency with Jason Pine
over the weekend, he talk about how much commercial revenue
is now driven outside of New Zealand versus when he
started the job. You know, it was made up a
lot more of the percentage. Now it's probably more overseas
than in New Zealand. But that can only last when
you've got a record like the All Blacks and they
need to protect that at all costs. And you'd say
(29:26):
at the moment that South Africa is leading the way
in terms of winning on the field the innovations that
they're bringing to rugby as well, in New Zealand's lacking
a bit behind. So there are some things that need
to be chipped out a way come twenty twenty six. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Super Pacific is the other one I think from a
product point of view, that has come on massively in
recent years and that's prominenttly been driven by the way
the game is officiated, letting the game flow, minimizing TMO
influence and stoppages, creating a really captivating on field domestic products.
(30:04):
But that challenge, that competition has massive challenges as well
with I don't know that any team in New Zealand's
turning a profit. I know the Crusaders won the title
and I'm pretty sure they didn't even make a profit,
and that's partly due to the stadium. The Hurricanes and
are in a massive state of flux. I've found an
investor who will a bit of a White Knights, who
(30:24):
will sort of bail them out, but big financial challenges
around Mine and PACIFICA. Essentially the longevity of that competition
ensuring it can survive because on the field, I think
it is delivering, even though there's still questions about if
it's best preparing New Zealand Australian athletes, in particular for
(30:46):
the test scene. When you look at the way the
game's played an international ragba at the.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Moment this year super Aby was the best in years
and it started strongly and a couple of weekends when
there wasn't Derby's it did dip a little but came
up towards the end. There was some compelling playoff games.
The Blues upsetting the Chiefs, Blues pushing the Crusaders all
the way are very very absorbing final In the end,
I don't know that it's the product that's going to
(31:12):
remain over the coming years. There's still, you know, eleven teams.
There's been no solution to a twelfth or further expansion
on that front. Desperately need the Australian teams to dure
say a winner title at some point in the next
couple of years, to just create that little bit of
tension in terms of not only playing but also the
viewing tension rivalry is exactly right. So yeah, I think
(31:37):
it's gonna be interesting to see where it goes over
the next few while. I know Australia's obviously committed, but
I don't think anyone's particularly happy in club rugby land,
maybe apart from the top fourteen at the moment. In
France and maybe in Japan as well. You've got the
Welsh that are cutting teams fought out to probably three,
and there's been a bit of talk about an Anglo
Welsh league. Maybe the Welsh can go join the Premiership
(32:00):
the URC. It doesn't big travel issues, big travel issues,
doesn't seem to be enjoyed by the South Africa teams,
doesn't seem to be enjoyed by the teams that are
in it from you know, Ireland and Wales and Italy,
et cetera. So I don't think anywhere in world rugby
club Landers as perfect at the moment. We did have
one message from or tweet that Ruck and Puck tweeted us,
(32:23):
which I've held for this podcast question for you guys.
He says, what's holding New Zealand rugy back from a
complete overhaul of Super Rugby. We'd love to see a
more US style Super Rugby comp and not sure how feasible.
Would require Insider to relinquish control and each team to
find private investment, need to increase excitement in Insian rugby. Again,
it's from Ruck and.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Puck, so it taught me through our US I suppose
maybe a draft or a lest games.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Yeah, potentially less games, but less control from insid art basically,
and maybe team says he's a private investment, can go
out and go this is our checkbook. We're willing to
pay it. Maybe there's no starter cap, maybe there is,
but you're approaching from a US league model. Maybe you
have trades mid season, maybe a drive interest that way.
(33:09):
And answer to your first question, I think it is
some way off having a league like that. I just
don't see it being something that can be implemented. You know,
cross Tasman. There are issues you know around players, you
know being you know, let's say trading is something they
want to bring in or draft, which was Hamish mclenan's
big point around a draft. Well, you know, young seventeen
(33:31):
year old hot shot first five from Wellington, how much
is he going to want to move to the Force
just because I've got the number one draft back in
Super Rugby, he might just go, bugger, I'm going to
go to rugby league. You don't have that in NBA, NFL,
NBA players are going to go. Actually, I don't want
to go to Miami, for example, I'm just going to
go switch to another code. It just doesn't happen. So
(33:53):
there are some inherence restrictions that operate around that. But
I think you know, Super Rugby could and are trying
to do more. I know that for a fact, around
various things. But it's a softly softly approach. Yeah, I
think they're just of it is highly unlikely, but I
can see where you're coming from in terms of why
(34:13):
it would drive interest. And the draft is not a
new debate.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
We've talked about it previously, even in a sense of okay,
so you can protect twenty five players, but the rest
of the playpool is up for grabs. Even something like
that would create interests. Yeah, I think Sue Bergey probably
also needs to get better at selling itself. Telling it
(34:36):
stories outside of the season is a wee bit more
of that. I think more in the PACIFICA are probably
the shining light in terms of how they're delivering content
socially reaching younger fans, So more of that helps. That's
partly why the Warriors have exploded an interest because of
(34:58):
the way they're doing things in that space. The US
style comp works well and season trades, drafts, all those
sorts of things captivate fans. Fantasy rugby, fantasy sport, whatever
it is, anything, it can't just be about the on
field product. You need to do more to drive interest
(35:20):
in the game. So it's very valid points. But New
Zealand Rugby is highly unlikely to relinkish that control, as
Rack and Puck said, because they like to control the
minutes of the All Blacks, they like to track players,
they like to have a degree of oversight, right, and
(35:42):
at this stage they're also paying the players wages they are.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Yeah, we'll leave you with that thought. As we get
into the break, what do you make the Super Rugby
juice this finally.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, the Canes are epic. Yeah, so it's a good sign. Well, yeah,
that's the other point I was going to make about
Super Rugby. The problem, one of the problems right now
is for all the on field advance is still highly predictable,
like it's highly likely it's going to be a Hurricane's
Chiefs final that.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Would we say highly likely? Would we say highly likely?
Speaker 2 (36:14):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Who Hurricanes probably win that because the Chiefs can't win
a final to save themselves.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
But certainly you're not going to predict a nausea in
the final right now, or the Highlanders getting there. You
know that they might improve, but it's still too predictable.
And that's where a draft and these sort of mechanisms
come into shake up things and create more interests, create
a more even playing field. I think that is really needed.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
To just one more point. Actually, I like Super Rugby,
I really do, but I wonder whether not that its
moment might have passed, but whether it's what rugby fans want.
I genuinely question that in this part of the world.
Do rugby fans want Super Rugby?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Do they?
Speaker 3 (36:55):
We look at the NRL and and you know that's
the natural comparison, but do fans want to see the
Blues warritors in New Zealand? I genuinely don't know that
there's actually an interest level in Australian rugby to justify
and keep taking over that I think we might have
got to the point where we've basically waited for all
(37:16):
these Australian sides to show up for fifteen years and
they haven't essentially since the wartar Is in twenty fourteen,
and even what the odd.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Exception exception here, but Brumby has been pretty competib But
you can't just do that off one.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
And I wonder whether the rugby you know, the casual
rugby fan that isn't always locked and has gone this
comp is just never going to create the jeopardy that
I need from it. Regittunity NRL and you know, it's
a bit of a lottery, and I don't know that's
always actually a good thing. You kind of need heroes
(37:49):
and villains and ups and downs and teams, but any
team can kind of beat anyone. And I just wonder
whether we're ever going to get that from its Australian
teams ever. Again, Yeah, it's a very fair question.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I think one point to make is is probably a
big disparity between because we're told quite consistently in the
past eighteen months that viewership figures are really good, but
in steady of support is really poor, particularly for the
Australian team, so nobody can solve that riddle. And the
(38:22):
other point is I think the NRAL are going to
kill the Golden Goose by bringing in all these teams
because they're going to have whipping boys for a number
of years. So that's the that's their issue, but I
can see that playing out. Super Rugby has been through that.
But it's a very fair question. And there's always that
nostalgia around Dutch Super Rugby go back to the NPC,
(38:44):
and that's not just our parents generation or our generation.
It's about connection and meaning and rivalries and yeah, just
it means something more and Super Rugby's probably lost a
bit of that and desperately trying to get it back.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
We'll see twenty twenty six, I'm sure another big year
for us on Rugby Direct. Forward to your company. Then
our thanks to Larst and Bars English for producing this
podcast all the way through the year. Of course, my
thanks to you Liam for another big year on Rugby Direct.
So looking forward to twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Six, you too, mate. I enjoy your holidays, so Santa's
good to you and you raise a glass over new year.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Luckwise, likewise, been another fun year on rugby Direct. We
look forward to twenty twenty six and now thanks to
Excess Solutions as well, who are celebrating twenty five years
in business.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
For more from News Talks ed B, listen live on
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You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
Straight down the Middle of.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Dry Dickney Sco. Please try these packet.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Inside the Game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct with
Elliot Smith and Liam Napier powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Excess Solutions, celebrating twenty
five years in business. Elliott Smith with me Liam Napier,
back for one last time in season twenty twenty five. Liam,
good to catch up. As always, It's been a couple
of weeks since we got behind the podcast microphones. We
(00:58):
had the all Black Speeding Wales and we took some
time to wrist and recover and here we are back
for one last time. As I said, anything you want
to touch on from the Welsh performance before we get
into the podcast itself.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
One last rides. Oh look, it was great to be
backing Sunny Cardiff had a great week there. The match
itself probably went as expected, didn't it. The team that
was rolled out a lot of opportunities handed. I think
it probably summed up the year in some ways. While
(01:30):
I was scoring the second most points in history against
the All Blacks, the All Black's running up a bit
of a score. I don't know if there was too
much you could take out of it for the context
of the season.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
It was.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
A pretty somber week, a bit of an edgy week
from a media perspective with the All Blacks and the
recriminations I guess had sort of started post Twickenham, so
I'm sure get stuck into a bit of that.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Well list did that now before we get to the
World Cup draw and the All Blacks finishing the year
with a ten W three loss record. There's been a
lot of articles written in the last couple of weeks
about where to next for this All Blacks team. Do
they need to change the coaching lineup, do they need
to make drastic changes? Where do you sit at this
(02:17):
point in time, because I think there has to be
some form of change. I think you'd struggle to make
compelling arguments that they're contracted to win that series the
greatest rivalry next year. I think you'd struggle to go
that there'd be able to progress past the Rugby World
Cup quarter final, which we'll get to, as I said
in a few moments time. So have there been enough
(02:38):
improvements from this All Blacks team, and do you think
there needs to be some change as we move towards
twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, let's unpack. I guess year two and that record.
They're ten and three. It's probably knots as good as
it sounds to a degree. I don't want to be
totally negative, so we'll talk some positives. But July France
in our very sick and string team, the All Blacks
ands and rugby had nothing to do with that. You
can only play who's in front of you. But there's
(03:06):
three victories straight off the bat. The All Blacks had
some challenges there as well, so look in the context
of the year. The notable wins were the spring Box
at Eden Park, and it's easy to forget the cacophony
of criticism and the intense backdrop around that following the
first loss in Argentina. So that was a big tick,
(03:26):
a big win for Scott Robinson at the time back's
massively pressed to the wall. The victory over Ireland in
Chicago the other probably notable one. And then the three
losses stand out, don't they not just for the defeats
but the nature of them and when I look over
the course of the All Black Sea, I think I
(03:47):
can't see a case for progress. I think depth has
been grown in some areas in most areas, and Robinson
has progressed his four four four plan. But when you
look at that England performance that's the ultimate match of
the year. Yes, the All Blacks are missing some big
outs from an injury perspective would have made a difference.
(04:10):
But I just I can't shake the sense of stagnation
and even coming home from the tour and speaking to
people around the team involved the team. I also think
about two assistant coaches from that group leaving voluntarily with
no with no job to go to. I've heard growing
(04:33):
murmurs of unhappiness from the playing group senior players that
the nots satisfied with communication, trust strategy. So I do.
I have come to the conclusion that I do feel
like there are major changes needed, either with the way
(04:54):
that coaching teams run or personnel. With Jason Holland leaving,
I think they will look to bring in a high
ball kicking specialist. For me, that just that that there's
not going to be an enough to really push and
transform the team and make the changes that are needed.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I think you're right. We've talked a bit about this
on the podcast, around the division of labor when Jason
Holland first left, and whether he was assigned enough to do,
whether he felt like he had enough to do, whether
some of the other coaches were taking on too much responsibility.
And I don't think they've got that right. And you know, naturally,
when you have a losing record, and they don't have
a losing record, but they've lost some big games, that's
(05:37):
when it comes under script and you can run the
team however you like when you're winning and everything's fantastic,
but when you're not winning the games that you're expected to,
that's when you come under some forms of criticism. And
I think that's only natural from an All Blacks perspective.
And I don't think, as you say, adding a kicking
coach is going to be enough to reshape the team,
because what we've seen in the last two years doesn't
(05:59):
give you the confidence that they are on the right
track and they're a moment away from discovering all the answers.
They've built some depth, and they've done well to do
that because they haven't had a lot of games against
tear two opposition that naturally you'd find players give an opportunity,
so they've had to learn on the run. But I
also feel as well that they haven't advanced the game plan.
(06:20):
I look at the All Blacks and go, do we
know the way that the All Blacks want to play?
Do we know the ideal scenarigo that if they're playing
their best rugby, this is the shape that the All
Blacks want to play in. I think we've got half
an idea. We've seen them use the props as first
receivers with those soft hands out the back. But to me,
it feels like the game plan has the players basically
(06:42):
from standing starts or little motion, whereas Scotland and England
attack them with players in motion bodies, you know, flying
through the line, putting the defense under pressure. So I
don't see the All Blacks having the kind of game
plan that goes that's All Blacks rugby. That's the way
they want to plan that on its day is going
to be good to win, you know, eighty to ninety
percent of test matches. I just don't see it at
(07:03):
the moment. So for me, you look at who's controlling
the game plan and a lot of that's around Scott Hansen,
who drives a lot of the game plan and there's
been articles written from New Zealand hero around you know
how much say he has in the game as well.
I think potentially you need to look at the game
plan and go is that the right game plan, who's
delivering it? And make some tweaks there. I think they
(07:27):
desperately need some work on, you know, fixing the structure
of the team, whether it goes back to attacking coach
or a backs coach Jason Ryan. There is a Fords coach.
You've got your head coach in Scott Robertson, and divide
the laborer up a little more evenly. I just don't
think that that coaching set up is the right one.
And I've never been a high performance coach and never
(07:49):
been a high performance athlete. But from the outside looking in,
I don't think they've got the structure right as it stands.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
No, I agree, Look, there were positives of the All
Blacks game. The line out was largely a success this year.
I think Brent Evens inclusion in the coaching team is
a big tick, particularly when Scott Barrett's Patrick two plot
and to provide miss large chunks of the season. You know,
(08:14):
you had Josh Lord's and Fabian Holland come in and
big responsibility on young shoulders, so the line out worked well.
I think also from a progression and depth perspective, Fabian
Holland's Peter Luckeye, Pasilio Tossi or three standouts all in
the forward pack. But the attack is a massive issue,
(08:37):
a consistent issue, and New Zealand should be just given
the mindsets, the approach to the game ball in hands
USA ball. You know, I don't particularly like the word
DNA necessarily, but that's how all blacks New Zealand ragby
(08:57):
players men and women love to play the game and
they're not harnessing the tools at their exposure. Their attack
has started all year and so that's a major red flag,
and it's a major read flag because Liam McDonald was
the attack coach and he left because he wasn't happy
Jason Hollands. I don't know this definitively, but I've had
(09:20):
a number of people say he left because he was
effectively marginalized and didn't have a great say in the attack.
So that adds to that portfolio issue. And then you've
got recurring themes the third quarter fades, so what's happening
at halftime? Why can't you solve those issues? The high
ball was another one. I think even the scrum platform,
(09:42):
the propping stocks are great and there's real depth there,
but against England and South Africa we're a bit wobbly.
So major improvements across the board, particularly when you look
ahead to next year seventeen game program four against the
World Champions, three of those in South Africa. That's pretty
daunting right now, I think. And that's the lens with
(10:04):
which should be viewed. Now, what about this review we've got.
Mike Anthony is going to be leading it. I'm not
too sure who else is involved. He's been the head
of High Performance or the equivalent for a long time.
He has quite a long existing relationship with Scott Robertson,
(10:24):
so maybe you'd like a bit more independence involved in
that review. Mike Anthony was toured with the All Blacks
on the Grand Slam Tour, so he was getting consistent
feedback throughout. How do you expect the review to run
and would you have major concerns if the player feedback
(10:44):
is as of sort of conveyed it.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Well we know back in twenty twenty one in Ian
Foster's ere there was some sharp feedback given around the
coaching they were getting. And the message that was given
at the time by some of them was that they
were getting better coaching at the Super Rugby franchise and
they were getting an all backs camp. But I mean
that around some of the detail coaching when you get
down to the nitty gritty, not so much the head coaching.
And there's a lot of respect obviously for Ian Foster
(11:11):
in that playing group, but it was targeted towards the
assistant coaches. They stayed with the assistant coaches and then
a few months later had to get rid of them
and say cyanara to Brad More and John Plumtree. So
this is a review. They do it at the end
of every season, so it's not new necessarily, but because
of the nature and where the All Blacks find themselves,
(11:32):
it takes on extra importance. And you hope it is honest,
You hope it's robust. You hope that everything's put out
on the table because you'd hate to get to another
year down and go, boy, I wish you made some changes,
significant changes at the start of twenty twenty six, rather
than trying to scramble in a start of a World
Cup year. So you hope it's robust and that everything's
on the table around the structure of the coaches, whether
(11:55):
the players you know, need to put a few you know,
their hands up and say we're not delivering the game
plan or you know we're not across the details that
we should be around that, so you know the coach
is coming for a lot of stick. But there's also
you know, perhaps some players that need to some accountability
on the board. I guess whether it'll be a direct
result from a review is remains to be seen. Whether
(12:16):
we hear any of the details publicly remains to be seen.
Sometimes some of those details leak out. But you just
hope it's open and honest, and if there are recommendations
for changes, that they're implemented. Because you don't want to
waste a good crisis. That's what a lot of business
leaders say. This isn't a crisis necessarily, but again you
don't want to be looking back and going, geez, they've
(12:37):
gone and lost four nil to South Africa. What are
we going to do a year out from a Rugby
World Cup so make any changes that need to be
made now and get them in place for me. I think,
you know, I'd like to see a more clearly defined
coaching structure in the team. You know, I don't you know,
Scott Robs is not going to go, but I do
wonder whether they need to have a specialist attack coach
(12:57):
and take some of that responsibility away from Scott Hansen.
Maybe he gets basically moved into it an assistant coaching
role or you know, similar role. I'm not sure, but
I don't know who's out there. You know, we've spit
board a few names over dinner and various things in
Cardiff as to who might be around. But I'd like
to see a traditional attack coach come into the structure
(13:19):
that can drive that. And you know, Kendrick Lynn out
of Argentina is the name. I'm not sure how long
he's contracted for. Tyler Blindell was at Leinster. I knows
he's highly regarded as well. You just don't know how
long people are contracted, what causes they've gotten their contracts.
But as I say, to circle back to your original question,
make sure you just don't waste what's in front of
(13:40):
you here and make sure you're making the right decisions
for this All Blacks team.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah, it's a very good point, isn't it. Learn from
history and be open to feedback and change because people
can be very resistant to change. But I think from
my perspective, it's very evident that something's not right and
something is not working within the All Black team, and
a ten to three record is far from terminal. But
(14:05):
you drill down into that, you look at the the
French series and the consistent issues, the lack of progress
and the player feedback. I think something needs to change.
Look when you talk about the alternatives, I guess even
Jamie Joseph has been talked about as an alternative at
(14:26):
this point without Tony Brown not hugely compelling. I would
love to see a guy like Joe Schmitt added, but
that's not going to happen. He was alienated during Robertson's
appointment process with the m Foster still at the Helm
while Schmidt was assistant, which is a great shame to
push away such a great rugby mind who is finishing
(14:50):
with the Wallabies soon. Wayne Smith has been involved, but
on a very limited basis. I think he was involved
with the Springboks test at Eden Park and the Wallabies
test in Wellington, so very much at arm's length, and
I think he's at a stage in life and career
where he wouldn't want to be involved more consistently, So
(15:13):
there's not a pathora of options out there there. There's
Andrew Goodman up in Irelands who's quite highly regarded while
and aren't going particularly well at the moment either. I
guess there's a few people in Japan as well, Dave
Rennie and co. But I think at this point New
(15:33):
zeal Rugby is typically a very conservative organization, aren't they,
and so I think they'll probably be given a stay
of execution maybe the South African tour. They might be
given some expectations around results. For me, that's waiting a
bit long watch the.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Space on that front. Russia Rausmus incidentally handed in a
four year extension, so he's now contracted for the next
six years through to twenty thirty.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
One, which is signver going to retire right REMARKA.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Well, I think he's just going to be the Springbok
coaching perpetuity until basically he goes out of there in
a coffin. And why not because he is clearly the
best coaching game at the moment in the men's game,
and would you change absolutely through to twenty thirty one,
which is a daunting prospect for every other team in
the world.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Does There's a bit of chat that his delay in
resigning was linked to his assistants. Do we expect Tony
Brown and co. There's been a bit of talk about
Jacques Nebina coming back from Leinster as well. How do
you see all that?
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Well, yeah, it was interesting. I looked at the media
release and they said, announcements are of the assistant coaches
we made in due course. You know, for for a
head coach, maybe it's a bit easier to sign on
for twenty thirty one. Assistant coaches might not be as
keen to sign on for six years. Some of them
will have aspirations to be head coaches, I am sure
elsewhere or head back to family or Jerry Flannery's in
(16:49):
there whether he wants to know, back to Eirel or
whatever it might be. So watch this space, I guess
on that front. But twenty thirty one, let's talk about
twenty twenty seven and the Ruggy Will Cup drawer has
been made and we know the all Blacks have the
Wallabies in Paul play maybe the opening game, maybe not.
I've heard mixed things and I I Peyton last week
sudused to that it might end up being at the
(17:11):
MCG in week two or three, so it might not
be the blockbuster opener that many are expecting.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
That would sort of make sense because your opening game
sells out regardless, hope.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
So even if it's Wallaby is sort of Chili or
Hong Kong.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I think if people want to be involved, it's an.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Occasion, they'll have the opening cerameter beforehand and those sort
of things. But as it stands, look if they all
Blacks are good enough to beat the Wallabies and therefore
and also beat Hong Kong and Chile, and then so
that forgot to help us. Well, look, you know there's
a lot of water to go on the bridge that exapply.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Is they could be some blood bus Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Unfortunately and afteria match that then they're on a collision
course for a quarter final.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
This what do you like?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
What do you make of? I guess that the way
that this has gone about.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Ah, that's absurd. Yeah, How does World rugby take something
that could be so simple and make it so frustrating tennis. Basically,
most other sports seed their teams. Why have world rankings
that if they are going to be irrelevant for your
global showpiece? Yeah, look, the rankings could change between now
(18:20):
and the World Cup as it stands, and I don't
actually agree with the rankings at the moment. I think
the All Black should be a but lower. They lost
to England to a ranked third. As it stands, the
Blacks two, South Africa one, and they are highly likely
to meet in this quarterfinal. That should not happen for
your global showpiece. The two best teams, one of them
going home. And we had a lot of that four
(18:41):
years ago or by the time this Nick's World Cup
rolls around. How do you not just just seed the
top four teams and have them in opposing quarterfinals provided
they win their pools.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
It's not that hard, No, it's this was the moment
that wild rugby firmly lost the plot, I have to say,
and going to twenty four teams, they don't have the
depth to go to twenty four teams. I'm sorry. This
is not a global game that rugby believes it is,
world rugby believes it is.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Is it just a cash grape more games.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Probably, Yeah, it's more games for the broadcasters around the globe.
There's more knockout games, so in theory there's more jeopardy
in there. But you do not have the quality to
go to twenty four teams. I'm sorry. You can talk
about growing the game and maybe this is them just
throwing a bone.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
It's complete lips of this because what do they do
outside of World Cups for those teams totally? If anything,
it's getting worse with the Nation's championship and so.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
What they've done here is make a mockery of the
World Cup. They've at it in a round of sixteen,
and you know you're gonna have a you know, the
current World Cup in terms of the twenty teams, your
farewell twelve teams when you went into the knockout stage.
Now you've got a round of sixteen. There's only eight
teams that go home before that round of sixteen, so
there's very little on the pool stage. The All Blacks
(19:55):
already know that Warby's not every team therefore knows it.
You know the path, you know, so far out from
a World Cup, and you're right, there should be some
protection there for that mythical top six that they talked about.
You know you want to protection, Well, it's not about
just the all blacks space in the spring box. It's
about the quality of the competition and making sure that
(20:16):
you have the best games deeper into the tournament. So
I firmly believe this is a shamboic tournaments structure from
World Rugby. For me, look, if you want to have
a round of sixteen, I would reced after the pool
stage and go, this was the best performing pool team,
one points different whatever it is they won. So let's
(20:39):
say South Africa, you know, put some points on they
are seated one. The lowest team to qualify. Sixteenth one
play sixteen. You have eight games, you put them all
in one venue over the course of a weekend, you know,
four games, three games a day, whatever is over four
days and it's all in Perth. It's all in Melbourne.
So teams know where they're going to be, so it's
not like they're having to factor that and necessarily. But
(21:02):
I think this is just an absolute shocker from World rugby.
And you know you talk luck of the draw, well,
very much is for some times and very much is
for some others.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
That's right. I think it is Look, well, I'm going
to shoot down the tym for a hat brigade here
that say it's a big conspiracy and World Rugby one
on Northern Hemisphere winner. That's not true at all. This
is completely random. There is a lot of luck in it.
But the only benefit to this style of World Cup,
as I think, it's despite having more teams, it's a
(21:32):
bit shorter. So that's the only benefits. I think the
team should be seeded and it does like your suggestion,
puts a lot more on the on the pool stages
because you have a scenario where even Italy could rest
their top team playing the spring box to make ensure
(21:54):
they win the other two pool matches. It's going to
be a pretty painful pool stage. The other point is
FIFA did their draw six months out from their tournaments.
World Rugby do it two years? One is bigger than
the other two. Why, Like you've shortened it by a
(22:16):
year because of all the massive criticism you copped for
the last tournament in France. Doing it three years out
two years isn't much better. If football can do it,
why can't rugby?
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Yeah? I don't get that in the slightest I know
you know the Basically the chatter is that you know,
all the English fans and stuff go spin their pounds
and booking for travel packages and.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Things, and the teams want to know logistics.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
But well, I'm sure teams want to know logistics and
they are able to provide that by going this pool
is going to play in this spot. This pool is
going to plan this spot and you can do that
with rugby as well. So look, I yeah this, and
look I don't think it's wreched, but there's something weird
about the All Blacks in Australia being in one pool,
England being in the same pool as Wales, Ireland Scotland.
(23:01):
I'm not sure where the TV rights have been sold
for the UK and Ireland as yet.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
But as worked out well, isn't it. And that's the
other point that we need to make is this tournament
is absolutely set up for England. Yeah, and I think
it's lucky the draw, but it is absolute luck. So
as it stands, if they win their pool, they avoid
the All Blacks, South Africa and France until the semi finals.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Just for the record, if you had as seated the
pools seeded, Yeah, the top teams in the pools a
likely quarterfinals South Africa, Fiji, Scotland, Ireland, France or Japan, England,
Argentina or Wales, New Zealand, Australia and Italy, which to
me seems much more logical.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Totally. I mean, I just don't see why they've gone
from twenty teams at all. To be honest, I think
wild rugby pays lip service to growing the game. This
is one easy box so they can go, oh, we
can say we're growing the game. They also you know,
blood referees from emerging nations and go oh with you know,
you know, but from Georgia and Andrea Piatia are coming in.
That's growing the game there. It's absolute rubbish and all
(24:14):
you're doing is hamstringing your event for the sake of
pretending that you're growing the game. So I think world
rugby has had an absolute shocker.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Every try try and sixty sick, every tackle, put.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Tack, the tackles get up again before time.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
It's Rugby Direct.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Talk the game in New Zealand as a whole as
we head into twenty twenty six and a little bit
of state of flux. We've got a chief executive that
has yet to be appointed. There was a lot of
suggestions they wanted to see you are appointed by Christmas
while we're recording this in the eighth of December, running
out of a little bit of time. They've got a
little bit of time still to make that appointment or
announce that appointment. But I think a bit of state
(25:01):
of flux just with where things are out. They'll be
happy they've got the TV deal signed away with Sky,
but there are some chain, you know, things in the
in the world game that are coming, and obviously a
new CEO that needs to come in and a couple
of other appointments as well.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Then, yeah, massive appointments in terms of where the game
in New Zealand goes, how it's run. I think there's
three executive appointments basically, and you need to start with
the CEO first and foremost. It's been widely reported that
Tom Harrison that the Six Nations CEO is the front
runner for that. Who's the cricket David David White. David
(25:40):
White is another one, so I heard last time they
were down to the final three. Sean Marx is definitely
not one and that was.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
A reporter over the weekend that Sean Marx wasn't was
in the mix. So your understanding is that he's not
not true.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I made some inquiries along those lines a couple of
weeks ago and it was while we're in the UK. Yeah, yeah,
didn't come to anything and so it won't be sure.
Marks could be Tom Harrison massive appointment in terms of
taking charge and look, yeah, New Zealand rugby isn't a
bit of a state of flux. There's so many realms
(26:17):
to it. I think you look at it's not a
total picture, but even the Ossie schools and New Zealand's
I need to get around the right way under eighteens
on schools. Those results this year sparked a bit of
alarm about TELL and identification and developments. I know there's
(26:40):
a bit of work keeping there in the in the
around the super rugby teams and getting that competition off
the grounds. You've got issues around the women's game as well.
I was speaking to someone over the past couple of days.
Over the weekends there's big clashes with Fara, Palmer Cup
and Club Rugby and Alpacky and a lot of provincial
(27:03):
union's unhappy with how that's playing out.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Yeah, they hadn't mind saying is they don't have a
lot of say and because they've got the change of
the global calendar for the women's game has shunted a
few things around the place, but it's going to hurt
Club Rugby absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah. And I think something like seventy eight of players
and the Fara Palmer Cup come from schools, the teenagers basically,
so big big challenges there. And the All Blacks you know,
they're the money making beast that runs the game. And
I hate the word aura, but the fear factor with
(27:42):
the All Blacks has gone. And if a bit of
that mystique, a bit of that nostalgia you know, that's
marketed and sold around the world. If they don't start
consistently winning, that can have a big material impact.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
There's still enough brands to that want to be connected
with New ze ond rugby.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
And I think that the demise of rugby is a
bit overblown. There's there's massive interest in the game and
you can see that when things don't go well mostly,
but there's always challenges around teenage boys and retention of them.
So yeah, some big ticket items to sort out in
the coming years. But I think from a revenue perspective,
(28:22):
they've done really well to cover some big absences, haven't they.
With some big name sponsors exiting this year.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
They have, and you're right, they sell this on the
legacy of the All Blacks and you know winning. That's
the mantra they have, and that's how they go to
brands overseas and go, this is what you want, we
want you to be part of, and this is the
check that we would like, thank you very much. And
when you start to chip away that it's inevitable that,
you know, people will drive down the amount of money
(28:52):
they're willing to pay to part part money with to
sponsor teams. And I think that's only natural. So when
it's the show piece, you've got to put up and
get the results or else the money starts to drift away.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I know.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Hearing from Mark Robinson and his excellency with Jason Pine
over the weekend, he talk about how much commercial revenue
is now driven outside of New Zealand versus when he
started the job. You know, it was made up a
lot more of the percentage. Now it's probably more overseas
than in New Zealand. But that can only last when
you've got a record like the All Blacks and they
need to protect that at all costs. And you'd say
(29:26):
at the moment that South Africa is leading the way
in terms of winning on the field the innovations that
they're bringing to rugby as well, in New Zealand's lacking
a bit behind. So there are some things that need
to be chipped out a way come twenty twenty six. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Super Pacific is the other one I think from a
product point of view, that has come on massively in
recent years and that's prominenttly been driven by the way
the game is officiated, letting the game flow, minimizing TMO
influence and stoppages, creating a really captivating on field domestic products.
(30:04):
But that challenge, that competition has massive challenges as well
with I don't know that any team in New Zealand's
turning a profit. I know the Crusaders won the title
and I'm pretty sure they didn't even make a profit,
and that's partly due to the stadium. The Hurricanes and
are in a massive state of flux. I've found an
investor who will a bit of a White Knights, who
(30:24):
will sort of bail them out, but big financial challenges
around Mine and PACIFICA. Essentially the longevity of that competition
ensuring it can survive because on the field, I think
it is delivering, even though there's still questions about if
it's best preparing New Zealand Australian athletes, in particular for
(30:46):
the test scene. When you look at the way the
game's played an international ragba at the.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Moment this year super Aby was the best in years
and it started strongly and a couple of weekends when
there wasn't Derby's it did dip a little but came
up towards the end. There was some compelling playoff games.
The Blues upsetting the Chiefs, Blues pushing the Crusaders all
the way are very very absorbing final In the end,
I don't know that it's the product that's going to
(31:12):
remain over the coming years. There's still, you know, eleven teams.
There's been no solution to a twelfth or further expansion
on that front. Desperately need the Australian teams to dure
say a winner title at some point in the next
couple of years, to just create that little bit of
tension in terms of not only playing but also the
viewing tension rivalry is exactly right. So yeah, I think
(31:37):
it's gonna be interesting to see where it goes over
the next few while. I know Australia's obviously committed, but
I don't think anyone's particularly happy in club rugby land,
maybe apart from the top fourteen at the moment. In
France and maybe in Japan as well. You've got the
Welsh that are cutting teams fought out to probably three,
and there's been a bit of talk about an Anglo
Welsh league. Maybe the Welsh can go join the Premiership
(32:00):
the URC. It doesn't big travel issues, big travel issues,
doesn't seem to be enjoyed by the South Africa teams,
doesn't seem to be enjoyed by the teams that are
in it from you know, Ireland and Wales and Italy,
et cetera. So I don't think anywhere in world rugby
club Landers as perfect at the moment. We did have
one message from or tweet that Ruck and Puck tweeted us,
(32:23):
which I've held for this podcast question for you guys.
He says, what's holding New Zealand rugy back from a
complete overhaul of Super Rugby. We'd love to see a
more US style Super Rugby comp and not sure how feasible.
Would require Insider to relinquish control and each team to
find private investment, need to increase excitement in Insian rugby. Again,
it's from Ruck and.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Puck, so it taught me through our US I suppose
maybe a draft or a lest games.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Yeah, potentially less games, but less control from insid art basically,
and maybe team says he's a private investment, can go
out and go this is our checkbook. We're willing to
pay it. Maybe there's no starter cap, maybe there is,
but you're approaching from a US league model. Maybe you
have trades mid season, maybe a drive interest that way.
(33:09):
And answer to your first question, I think it is
some way off having a league like that. I just
don't see it being something that can be implemented. You know,
cross Tasman. There are issues you know around players, you
know being you know, let's say trading is something they
want to bring in or draft, which was Hamish mclenan's
big point around a draft. Well, you know, young seventeen
(33:31):
year old hot shot first five from Wellington, how much
is he going to want to move to the Force
just because I've got the number one draft back in
Super Rugby, he might just go, bugger, I'm going to
go to rugby league. You don't have that in NBA, NFL,
NBA players are going to go. Actually, I don't want
to go to Miami, for example, I'm just going to
go switch to another code. It just doesn't happen. So
(33:53):
there are some inherence restrictions that operate around that. But
I think you know, Super Rugby could and are trying
to do more. I know that for a fact, around
various things. But it's a softly softly approach. Yeah, I
think they're just of it is highly unlikely, but I
can see where you're coming from in terms of why
(34:13):
it would drive interest. And the draft is not a
new debate.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
We've talked about it previously, even in a sense of okay,
so you can protect twenty five players, but the rest
of the playpool is up for grabs. Even something like
that would create interests. Yeah, I think Sue Bergey probably
also needs to get better at selling itself. Telling it
(34:36):
stories outside of the season is a wee bit more
of that. I think more in the PACIFICA are probably
the shining light in terms of how they're delivering content
socially reaching younger fans, So more of that helps. That's
partly why the Warriors have exploded an interest because of
(34:58):
the way they're doing things in that space. The US
style comp works well and season trades, drafts, all those
sorts of things captivate fans. Fantasy rugby, fantasy sport, whatever
it is, anything, it can't just be about the on
field product. You need to do more to drive interest
(35:20):
in the game. So it's very valid points. But New
Zealand Rugby is highly unlikely to relinkish that control, as
Rack and Puck said, because they like to control the
minutes of the All Blacks, they like to track players,
they like to have a degree of oversight, right, and
(35:42):
at this stage they're also paying the players wages they are.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Yeah, we'll leave you with that thought. As we get
into the break, what do you make the Super Rugby
juice this finally.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, the Canes are epic. Yeah, so it's a good sign. Well, yeah,
that's the other point I was going to make about
Super Rugby. The problem, one of the problems right now
is for all the on field advance is still highly predictable,
like it's highly likely it's going to be a Hurricane's
Chiefs final that.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Would we say highly likely? Would we say highly likely?
Speaker 2 (36:14):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Who Hurricanes probably win that because the Chiefs can't win
a final to save themselves.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
But certainly you're not going to predict a nausea in
the final right now, or the Highlanders getting there. You
know that they might improve, but it's still too predictable.
And that's where a draft and these sort of mechanisms
come into shake up things and create more interests, create
a more even playing field. I think that is really needed.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
To just one more point. Actually, I like Super Rugby,
I really do, but I wonder whether not that its
moment might have passed, but whether it's what rugby fans want.
I genuinely question that in this part of the world.
Do rugby fans want Super Rugby?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Do they?
Speaker 3 (36:55):
We look at the NRL and and you know that's
the natural comparison, but do fans want to see the
Blues warritors in New Zealand? I genuinely don't know that
there's actually an interest level in Australian rugby to justify
and keep taking over that I think we might have
got to the point where we've basically waited for all
(37:16):
these Australian sides to show up for fifteen years and
they haven't essentially since the wartar Is in twenty fourteen,
and even what the odd.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Exception exception here, but Brumby has been pretty competib But
you can't just do that off one.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
And I wonder whether the rugby you know, the casual
rugby fan that isn't always locked and has gone this
comp is just never going to create the jeopardy that
I need from it. Regittunity NRL and you know, it's
a bit of a lottery, and I don't know that's
always actually a good thing. You kind of need heroes
(37:49):
and villains and ups and downs and teams, but any
team can kind of beat anyone. And I just wonder
whether we're ever going to get that from its Australian
teams ever. Again, Yeah, it's a very fair question.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I think one point to make is is probably a
big disparity between because we're told quite consistently in the
past eighteen months that viewership figures are really good, but
in steady of support is really poor, particularly for the
Australian team, so nobody can solve that riddle. And the
(38:22):
other point is I think the NRAL are going to
kill the Golden Goose by bringing in all these teams
because they're going to have whipping boys for a number
of years. So that's the that's their issue, but I
can see that playing out. Super Rugby has been through that.
But it's a very fair question. And there's always that
nostalgia around Dutch Super Rugby go back to the NPC,
(38:44):
and that's not just our parents generation or our generation.
It's about connection and meaning and rivalries and yeah, just
it means something more and Super Rugby's probably lost a
bit of that and desperately trying to get it back.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
We'll see twenty twenty six, I'm sure another big year
for us on Rugby Direct. Forward to your company. Then
our thanks to Larst and Bars English for producing this
podcast all the way through the year. Of course, my
thanks to you Liam for another big year on Rugby Direct.
So looking forward to twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Six, you too, mate. I enjoy your holidays, so Santa's
good to you and you raise a glass over new year.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Luckwise, likewise, been another fun year on rugby Direct. We
look forward to twenty twenty six and now thanks to
Excess Solutions as well, who are celebrating twenty five years
in business.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
For more from News Talks ed B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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