Retired Lieutenant Commander From Deep Below in a Nuclear Submarine to Deep Truths of Life EP80

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You know the average person onlystays on a submarine for three,
maybe four years tops until theygo take a short assignment
somewhere because you can only spend so much time on a
submarine before you go. You need some sun for sure.
So it's this, you know, and compare that to say a civilian

(00:20):
nuclear power plant where, you know, everyone's been there for
decades. You know that it's it, you get a
job at a nuclear power plant and, and you're going to be
there for 35 years. So and so and so it's an older
workforce, it's a more experienced workforce.
Whereas on a summary we got a bunch of kids doing this and

(00:41):
it's not even. Like.
Yeah, and it's not even like they're doing it for a long
time. So you never, it's not like, you
know, the most senior guy. And I'm not talking about rank,
I'm just talking about knowledgeof the submarine.
Might have been there for four. Years many different groups of
people like there was there was it was not a whole team working

(01:01):
to make this boat go forward. But I think it's because of the
size I I think it's that it's like a huge city.
I go to Montreal. People don't give a shit about
nobody but my city where 8000, Igo to store, people hold the
door, say hi. I think since you guys are like
confined and in a small space, like might as well get along and

(01:22):
figure it out and move on. And so, so I think so I think
that's how the blueprint of teaching that the guys were made
there because you're stuck with these guys.
You can't even throw him overboard because you're
underwater. So you got to deal with these
people. That's funny.
Yeah, you know, you're right. And and I will tell you what, if
you deploy anyone you've deployed with, so you've done

(01:45):
6-7 months on submarine with youprobably know as well as your
own brother or sister, like you just know everything about them.
Or another metaphor is like if you're at a restaurant and the
waitress comes out with this bigtray of drinks and she spills
them all. You know, typically what you'll
see is a a group of people come over to help clean everything

(02:06):
up, make sure she's OK, and thenget back to work.
And at no point is there like a discussion of like, what the
hell happened? How did this happen?
I mean. That's so true.
Enough. Was the floor slippery?
She needs to put less drinks on there.
Again, thank you for for your research.

(02:29):
It's appreciated. It's tells me that you how
seriously you take this show, sothank you.
I well, I appreciate people thattake the time to come on the
show, so the least I could do isdo a good research in that.
Person. Really, uh, misunderstand about
the life inside of a submarine because you ain't seen the sun

(02:50):
every day there. So.
So what happens under there thatmost people are are never going
to understand their life. Is to go out in the middle of
the ocean and be undetected in case they get the order to
launch. That's important but it was
boring to me. Like I wanted to do more mission
oriented stuff. But to answer your question, the

(03:14):
yes submarine could stay submerged for damn near ever.
Notice. Yeah, we, I mean, we come up to,
you know, get some fresh air with something called
ventilating where you can just kind of refresh the air that's
in the submarine because it's all recycled normally.
Get some message traffic, download some emails and all

(03:34):
that's done at Periscope depth. So this, the submarine still
appears to be submerged, but we just stick a couple antennas up
out of the water with 18 students.
And we graduated 4. And it was hard academically.
But that's not why we lost most people.
Most people were lost over integrity violations.
And I mean, like, you know, copying someone's homework or,

(03:58):
you know, being late to class and lying about why you were
late. I mean, and any breach of
integrity, you were just gone. And so, yeah, that's, it's kind
of #1 we, we rely and, and the reason that's so important is
because everyone's job on a submarine.
Is that boring? Exactly.

(04:18):
Exactly. And so if it's 2:00 in the
morning and the mechanic down anengine room lower level has a
decision to make, there's nobodyaround.
You know, one way would be a shortcut and you could get it
done in 2 minutes. The other way would be a pain in
the ass and would take 20 minutes.
That we want the guy who will doit the right way, take the 20
minutes. And if for some reason he

(04:40):
believes that's not the right answer, then he needs to raise
his hand and get a supervisor involved and make a deliberate
decision about what we're going to do.
Man, you're, you're good at yourjob, man.
Another great question. I appreciate it.
Well, most engineers will tell you that the nuclear submarine
is the most complex piece of machinery ever built by man,

(05:01):
even more so than the space shuttle.
And you know, primarily it's notjust the, it's not just what it
can do. It's the fact that so much was
jammed into a small space, right?
I mean, like every system that, you know, your airlines and your
sea water lines are all intertwined and you're
constantly having to climb behind that.
You would you wouldn't believe the places that you have to

(05:22):
climb into to operate that submarine.
How tight it is you mean? Wow, mechanic on a submarine?
You're climbing it, you know, behind valves and pipes that
looks like no human being can fit behind.
But you have to. Anyway, People say what movies
did you watch, what books did you read, you know?
And I'm like 0. I had no time for that.

(05:45):
Zero was like, yeah, I mean, I, I brought some books with me and
I read the first page of the first book dozens of times in
the submarine. You cannot have a
miscommunication. You just can't.
You know, if someone says, hey, go open that valve and you go
shut that valve, bad things could happen, right?
So on the submarine we have thiskind of weird way of talking and

(06:11):
any order has to be repeated back, right.
So if if I say say I'm working in the engine room.
They do the same in a plane. After an officer said something,
the other one repeats it just toconfirm.
That is good, I think. So and it can get pretty complex
meaning. Let me just give you an example.

(06:31):
Most nuclear evolutions are controlled from the control room
in the engine room, right? And there's an officer in there
who's in charge. And then there's somebody on the
phones. There's sound powered phones,
just, you know, the headphones and the talker.
And they're talking to the space, let's say engine room,

(06:52):
lower level. OK, you're going through a
procedure and the officer controls the procedure.
Let's say the next step is open charging valve 37, right?
So he'll save the phone talker, Phone talker 2 engine room lower
level open charging 37. And then the phone talker will
turn around and say 2 engine lower level open charging 379.

(07:13):
And then he says engine lower level from engineering lower
level maneuvering open charging 37.
Then they'll repeat that back and say open charging through
seven I. They'll open charging through 7.
Then they'll say charging through 7 is open.
And the maneuvering will say charging through 7 is open I.
And then he'll say and you know,so it's charging 37 is that's

(07:33):
for one valve. So you know the listening part.
Is it's to make sure there's no error.
Can't be. There just can't be.
When I got out of the military and I I knew I had to, you know,
like you're no longer on a submarine.
But even with the knowledge of that, I still sometimes get

(07:57):
surprised how sensitive people are in the civilian world,
right? I remember one time.
At first, sure. It was like my first job as a
civilian and something didn't goright.
So I called the team meeting andyeah, it's pretty direct, but I
wasn't. I think it was mean and like on

(08:19):
a scale of 1 to 10, I was probably out of three, or at
least I thought I was. Um, but then, uh, couple people
afterwards, we're like, you can't talk to us like that.
It was like like what? Like two people quit and I was
just like, holy shit. Like my first shower on a

(08:39):
submarine. I came out of the shower and all
my clothes and towels were gone.And then I tried to get to my
rack and somebody had locked it and then all the other birthing
areas were locked. So I couldn't like grab someone
else's towel and they were just fucking with me and they wanted
to see how how I would react. And I remember thinking like,

(09:00):
I'm standing there naked. And I remember thinking like,
alright, you want to get nuts, let's get nuts.
So I went back to the engine room naked, and I was like,
alright, who's going to give me back my clothes or we're going
to wrestle for it. Yeah.
And they were immediately like, OK, here, here, here's your
clothes. Just go away.

(09:58):
Welcome back on a rumbling factspodcast.
You're #1 destination to challenge the status quo,
dissect the system and think outside the box people to
extract raw, unfiltered wisdom. And every episode, no matter how
it rumbles your perspective, your perspection, because this
is where our guests uncomfortable truths collides
with our reality to fast track our learning and life.

(10:19):
This is where a critical thinking is promoted and where
our guests and our our fans get pushed to think outside their
comfort zone. I'm your host Sam, like a DJ Red
Sam on all music platforms that we're at 225,000 streams on my
music on all music platforms available.
I really appreciate you guys forchecking the music and the

(10:40):
podcast. It's been a hell of a ride this
last year. And so whether if you're
rebuilding yourself up growing your business or fixing your
relationship or waking up to thelies that you've been sold, this
conversation is the conversationyou didn't even know you needed.
This is a podcast that you probably don't even fucking know
existence or subscribe the God dead podcast and like the video.

(11:02):
It really it really helps Today we're we have an incredible
guest that I'm honored to have Matt.
He Geronimo Matt's career speaksfor itself.
A seasoned veteran with years inthe service and U.S.
Navy, Matt has spent a significant part of his career
as a submarine officer, navigating one of the most

(11:22):
intense and high pressure environments.
And literally high pressure because you're underwater
people. Now a leadership strategist,
Matt's expertise content continues to make an impact,
helping individuals and organizations build high
performance teams and achieve operational excellence.
His work extends beyond the military service, blending his
experience to offer invaluable insights into what makes a great

(11:46):
leader and how to operate effectively under stress.
We are truly grateful to have Matt under score today.
His depth and experience and leadership wisdom made him a
fucking perfect guest for our audience and I can't wait to get
into this. Thank you Matt for your service
and we are honored to have you on the show.
How you doing? I'm well seeing that was a quite

(12:07):
an introduction. Thank you.
Humbled by that. I appreciate that.
But First off, can you tell us abit what motivated you to be
like, wow, I want to protect my country and join the Navy
because that's very admirable. Yeah, so it's interesting.
You know, I was not the type of kid playing with ships in the

(12:30):
bathtub or anything like that, right.
But I, I had, I had, I I grew upin New Jersey and I, I just, I
wasn't ready to, you know, go sit in a cubicle somewhere for
the rest of my life. Wasn't sure exactly what I
wanted to do. And so instead of pursuing
something that would make me unhappy, I just said, well, look

(12:51):
at the hell out of New Jersey and, you know, do something
different. I figured I would be in the Navy
for a few years, but I really liked it, you know, so I stayed
in and then 9/11 happened, which, you know, kind of re
motivated my patriotism. I see the world slightly
different now with, you know, the years that have passed since
9:11, but I think 911 kind of suck me in.

(13:14):
For steal the deal for a lot of a lot of you, a lot of people
when it when it went into the army, like close to there
because that there was just instead of just sitting at home
doing nothing and you see that happen and you're like, man, I
want to do a difference. And that's quite incredible.
Is there something that attracted you to submarines
instead of the surface ships? It's like, it's like a lot of

(13:37):
people just want to be on those big ships, but you fuck off.
I want to be underwater. Is there a reason for this?
Yeah, it's a good question. So a couple things.
One is I've always been good at math and science, my degrees in
nuclear engineering and, and although it's not required to
have a degree, nuclear engineering, it's definitely a
math and science intensive community, you know, And so that

(14:01):
kind of fit my skill set and then my, it kind of fit my
personality also because a smaller crew, I like the, the
clandestine missions. I just the, you know, the, the
sort of off the radar, if you will, and just kind of doing her

(14:21):
own thing. I liked it a lot.
How deep are you guys normally like the the average of depth
that the submarine travels at? A couple 100 feet.
OK, OK. And I learned that the
difference between nuclear submarine and a submarine.
Well, I would have thought, because I'm stupid like most

(14:42):
people, I would have thought, OK, well, the submarine, the
nuclear, well, he has nuclear bombs on board all that.
That's not nearing exactly what that means.
That means because it's a nuclear propulsion.
That's why it's called a SO. It generates our electricity and
our propulsion. That's it.
So you and and that submarine compared to a normal submarine,

(15:03):
does it need to go back to the surface as often?
So, no. So a couple of things.
So one is the United States has two types of submarines.
They're both nuclear. There's the fast attack
submarine, which I was on, OK, and then the ballistic missile
submarines, which I was not on. And they do carry nuclear

(15:23):
weapons, OK, OK. But they tend, that's really
their only mission is to go out in the middle of the ocean and
be undetected in case they get the order to launch.
That's important. But it was boring to me.
Like I wanted to do more missionoriented stuff.
But to answer your question, theyes submarine could stay

(15:46):
submerged for damn near ever notice.
Yeah, we, I mean, we come up to,you know, get some fresh air
with something called ventilating where you can just
kind of refresh the air that's in the submarine because it's
all recycled normally. Get some message traffic,
download some emails and all that's done at Periscope depth.

(16:08):
So this the submarine still appears to be submerged, but we
just stick a couple antennas up out of the water.
That's what we see like in movies.
A little stick there, OK. That little stick is an antenna
typically or and or a Periscope and and that enables us to
communicate with satellites. Alright, now what's something

(16:30):
that most people completely misunderstand about the life
inside of a submarine? Because you ain't seen the sun
every day there. So.
So what happens under there thatmost people are are never going
to understand their life. Yeah, great question.
A couple things. One is it's it's not boring,
right? So I get all the time people

(16:51):
will say like I I've been on multiple 7 month deployments and
and people say what movies did you watch?
What books did you read? You know, and I'm like 0.
Had no time for that. Like, yeah, I mean, I I brought
some books with me and I read the first page of the first book
dozens of times because then I just fall asleep because we're

(17:12):
all exhausted all the time. Ideally, you know, even on a
deployment, we have maybe 130 people.
But if you were concerned about people's rest, you would need
much. You need more people than that.
We don't have space for that many people.
As a consequence, there's a lot of work for everyone to do.

(17:34):
And I think that's, I think a lot of people make the
assumption that we're just kind of hanging out underwater
playing cards, watching movies, and that's just not true.
Yeah. The other thing that comes up a
lot, and I've dealt with this a lot in the civilian world since
I retired, people will say to mefrom time to time, yeah.

(17:57):
I mean, you know, you, you had alot of leadership experience in
the military, but in the military, people just have to do
what you say. And that makes it easier.
And I always say, like, yeah, you, you really don't know what
you're talking about. Like, it's there's a little bit
of that. I mean, at the end of the day,
if a senior officer gives you anorder, you need to follow it.

(18:19):
But the good leaders on a submarine were never the ones
that relied on their rank to getthings done.
You know, once those hatches shut, you're just a bunch of
guys in a tube and you really have to earn your respect and
the rank just doesn't do it right.
You have as. You're all A-Team at the end
protecting each other. 100% yeah.

(18:42):
If you, you could be a high-ranking person and you
know, if you're a knucklehead oryou don't know what you're doing
or you're a bad leader, it's notgoing to be, it's not going to
be fun for you. It's just and you don't have,
you know, and I say a good leader.
I'm not suggesting anything other than humility, empathy,

(19:03):
subject matter expertise. And it's just an understanding
that your leadership is, is a, is a blessing.
And you know, if any time I've been given the responsibility to
lead people, I, I look at that as those are my bosses, right?
So I, I, I try much harder to please my team than I do my

(19:25):
boss, right? If I can keep my team and I say
happy, but you know, that's not always possible.
But if I can get my team to respect me and to know that I
wouldn't ask them to do anythingthat I either haven't done
myself or wouldn't do myself andand just respect them as people
and as, you know, human beings, adults with, you know, sort of

(19:47):
dignity and respect. Yeah.
That's all. That's all that's required, you
know, And if you want to be a great leader, obviously there's
nuances associated with that. And there's thousands of books
right, on the subject. But you know, for the most part,
what I just described is kind ofwhat you need to earn some
respect on a submarine. When you look at like planes for
example, and we we obligate the planes to have two pilots at all

(20:12):
times because you need both of them to really fly this plane
effectively. How many really people you need
to to drive this submarine effectively as well?
Probably way more. Yeah.
So I think if you know, if you're just talking about the
control room, because there's, you know, there's a lot of

(20:32):
different. Powers.
There's radar, there's fire control, then the engine room
and the diesel and all this other stuff.
But if you just talk about the control room, 12345 would be
about the minimum. You usually we have more than
well, again, it depends on who there's navigation, which is

(20:53):
kind of part of the team. And then but in terms of just
making the submarine move, you have somebody who controls the
rudder, which is sort of your left and right, who controls the
the fairwater or the bow plans, which makes the ship go up or
down. And then you have a guy sitting
behind those two who's responsible for overseeing them,

(21:18):
because those guys in the seats are typically the youngest guys
on the submarine. OK, Because, well, you know, all
they're doing is this, right? And but, but there's a lot to it
that the senior guy has to sit over there.
And then to the left of them, there's a guy called the Chief
of the Watch. And what he does is he manages
all our tanks because you can imagine, or if you know, if you

(21:41):
haven't thought about it, like every time you fill up a tank,
you're changing the buoyancy of the submarine.
And so that could be just like the tank that the bathrooms are
connected to, right? Or it could be the water that we
drink or the water for the reactor.
And then the same thing is true with all our air banks, right?

(22:02):
Because you have to release the air.
And so that's, that's a whole science project unto itself.
And there's that guy over there.And then the officer of the deck
is the officer who's in charge of the whole ship.
And he's the one who gives the orders to that group of what to
do. And it's crazy because we would

(22:24):
think as civilians cause a plane, your mid air, everything
like a touchy, you're you're flying it.
And let's say you let go, those controls that you crash are
quite fast. So a lot of people, I'm sure
would think that maybe you wouldn't need less people to
drive us over. He says there's just a you're
nothing can really happen. Like that's what people most

(22:44):
people would think there. But I knew that that that ship
is way more complex than the plane there, no?
Most people, most engineers willtell you that the nuclear
submarine is the most complex piece of machinery ever built by
man, even more so than the spaceshuttle.
And you know, primarily it's notjust the, it's not just what it

(23:07):
can do, it's the fact that so much was jammed into a small
space, right? I mean, like every system that,
you know, your airlines and yoursea water lines are all
intertwined and you're constantly having to climb
behind that. You would you wouldn't believe
the places that you have to climb into to operate that
submarine. How tight it is you mean?

(23:27):
Wow. Mechanic on a submarine.
You're climbing it, you know, behind valves and pipes that
looks like no human being can fit behind.
But you have to anyway. Wow.
It's it's tight. For sure, you've risen through
the ranks as a Lieutenant Commander, Adan.

(23:47):
How was that? And was it hard like to like
demark yourself compared to others like to show?
It's a good question, but you know, I started as an enlisted
sailor. I was an electronics technician
and then got picked up for an officer program where I earned a

(24:09):
Bachelors of Science degree in nuclear engineering and came
back as an officer. And so I got to experience life
in the military, both as an enlisted guy, as an officer, and
I think that helped me make helpme become a better officer
because I was able to empathize.You know, I've been there,
right? I cleaned the toilets.
I'm, you know, I've done all that and and then, you know,

(24:33):
once so you get a little bit more respect from the guys, like
kind of right off the bat, but you still have to earn it,
right? Because there's plenty of
knuckleheads who are hiring listed guys who still make
crappy officers. And you're mostly all young too,
like like around 25 around and all that chip there.
Yeah. You did your research.
Yeah, you did. Yeah.

(24:54):
I think that's the average age 25 and it's, and it's, if you
think about it, it's, it's even a little bit more complex than
that because, you know, the average person only stays on a
submarine for three, maybe four years tops until they go take a
short assignment somewhere because you can only spend so

(25:14):
much time on a submarine before you go.
You need some sun, whatever. So it's this, you know, and
compare that to say a civilian nuclear power plant where, you
know, everyone's been there for decades.
You know, there it's if you get a job at a nuclear power plant
and, and you're going to be there for 35 years.
So and so and so it's an older workforce, it's a more

(25:40):
experienced workforce. Whereas on a summary we got a
bunch of kids doing this and it's not even.
Like. Yeah, and it's not even like
they're doing it for a long time.
So you never, it's not like, youknow, the most senior guy.
And I'm not talking about rank, I'm just talking about knowledge
of the submarine. Might have been there for four
years. And if he has, that means he's

(26:01):
on his way out. So it's just constant.
So really what we we rely on areprocesses, right, So.
And forming, forming like the next ones to really keep the
ship going. Yeah.
And so sometimes I get teased and, you know, rightfully so
from other service members and sometimes civilians who know a

(26:23):
little bit about submarines that, you know, some, some
Mariners have a procedure for everything, right?
We have a procedure for flushingthe toilet, which is true.
Which is true because it's not aregular toilet.
There's valves and you know, it's OK, but but I always say
like, well, hold on. Like we, we weren't robots.
Meaning, yes, was there a procedure for everything?

(26:45):
Absolutely. But no procedure can cover every
situation. So you still have to be very
thoughtful in what you were doing.
But we do rely on processes and procedures to make sure,
especially when it comes to operating the reactor that, you
know, we're doing at the right time all the way all the time.
Yeah, period. And I, I, I checked out your

(27:09):
extreme operational excellence and that you Co wrote with
another officer, you talked about what, what businesses can
learn from the nuclear subculture.
And So what are the core principles that created this,
created success under those extreme pressures of the
submarine? Again, thank you for for your

(27:34):
research. It's appreciated.
It's tells me that you how seriously you take this show.
So thank you. Appreciate people that take the
time to come on the show so the least I could do is do a good
research in that. Person.
That's awesome. So there's a couple, right?
So you know, we start with integrity and integrity is often

(27:57):
confused with its cousin, which is honesty.
And they're not the same thing, right.
Integrity on a submarine means doing the right thing all the
time, even if no ones watching. And that is essential to what we
do. And, and in fact, if you breach
your integrity, you're probably going to get thrown off the
submarine, even if it's over something small.

(28:19):
In fact, my training program to get on the submarine as an
enlisted guy, I was down in Orlando for what's called an, A
school, you know, to, to teach me electronics essentially.
And it was there for about a year.
And I started the class with 18 students and we graduated 4.

(28:41):
And it was hard academically, but that's not why we lost most
people. Most people were lost over
integrity violations. And I mean, like, you know,
copying someone's homework for, you know, being late to class
and lying about why you were late.
I mean, and any breach of integrity, you were just gone.
And so, yeah, that's, it's kind of #1 we, we rely and, and the

(29:06):
reason that's so important is because everyone's job on a
submarine. Exactly.
And so if it's 2:00 in the morning and the mechanic down in
engine room lower level has a decision to make, there's nobody
around. You know, one way would be a
shortcut and you could get it done in 2 minutes.
The other way would be a pain inthe ass and would take 20

(29:28):
minutes. If we want the guy who will do
it the right way, take the 20 minutes.
And if for some reason he believes that's not the right
answer, then he needs to raise his hand and get a supervisor
involved and make a deliberate decision about what we're going
to do, right? So integrity is certainly #1 you
know, the next thing we talk about is learning organization.

(29:52):
The submarine community really embraces constantly getting
better. And the only way, in my opinion,
you can constantly get better isif one of your core values is
learning and your actions are consistent with that, right?
So you can say we're committed to learning, We're continuing.

(30:14):
We're, we're committed to continuous improvement.
In fact, every company I've everseen says that that means
nothing. But if I tell you, you employ my
Yeah, you put it on paper. It's like safety, right?
Every company in the world is that safety is our number one
priority, but yet there's a lot of unsafe companies out there.

(30:35):
So why is that? Well, your actions need to back
it up. And when it comes to learning
organization, the, the, the analogy I always give is
American football, right? So the, an average football team
will spend 40 hours preparing for a football game.
They'll spend 4 hours playing the game and then they spend 8
hours watching the game. So they did a lot of

(30:58):
preparation, some execution, andthen a lot of evaluation on the
back end. And they do all that to a
prepare themselves. And then on the back end they
want to get better for the next time they do it.
And very few organizations do that.
And I don't know. So, you know, if you reduce that
down mathematically, it's like, you know what, what, what are we

(31:20):
trying to do here? It's like 110 two, right?
So for every hour of execution, you're preparing for 10 hours
and you're evaluating for two. And I'm not saying that's the
ratio that every kind of used for every evolution.
But that's a good idea to to start with.
I know it's not the right answer, like 0X0 right where

(31:42):
it's like, we didn't do any preparation.
We just ran into it and then we didn't really evaluate it.
And, and again, the, the metaphor, another metaphor is
like if you're at a restaurant and the waitress comes out with
this big tray of drinks and she spills them all.
You know, typically what you'll see is a, a group of people come
over to help clean everything up, make sure she's OK and then

(32:05):
get back to work. And at no point is there like a
discussion of like, what the hell happened?
How did this happen? I mean.
That's so true. Enough.
Was the floor slippery if you need to put less drinks on
there? But and and I'm, you know,
exaggerating for. Yeah, but the.

(32:27):
Point is, the best organizations, and as a
submarine, we were committed to it.
Every organization will do investigations when things go
wildly wrong, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure.
You do something to the environment.
You hurt someone. Somebody dies for sure.
I hope you're doing something tochange, but you guys make sure
to you don't need that chaos to let's build ourselves or let's

(32:51):
let's get better there compared to, for example, plane crashes.
They're they're really wait until chaos happens and then now
they're investigation and they amplify rules for all the other
aviation because of that one plane.
But shit needs to happen. But you guys are not waiting for
shit to happen. You guys are just trying to, to
build your, your, your, yourselves as a crew.

(33:13):
I think it's a bit more like a UFC fighter because he checks
the fights in advance of of whathow that guy fights, does a
training camp for three months to do a 15 or 25 minute fight.
And there's so much work that goes into it to make sure that
you're you're the best possible when you're under pressure doing
it. Yeah, and and you know a couple

(33:35):
things. 1 is to me, it's very, because I've seen this,
obviously I saw in the Navy for nearly 20 years and then wow.
But ten years in the civilian world and the, the, the
organizations that don't do that, who don't take the time
and sit down and talk about something that's not horrible,

(33:56):
right? I mean, nobody got hurt.
We didn't break anything, but itdidn't go as expected.
Exactly. And if a couple other things had
gone wrong, it would have been bad.
If you don't practice learning from that, when you have to
learn, no one knows how to do it.
And you know, some people hear that, think, well, what are you
talking about? We don't.

(34:17):
Like I'm telling you, like, I'vebeen there.
You you sit around the table andif people aren't used to it,
they think it's some sort of legal investigation, that their
jobs are at risk. They clam up, they don't say
anything. And we don't learn anything.
And we're not better as an organization.
And, and one of the things that you learn very early in the
Navy, at least in the submarine world, is, you know, part of

(34:39):
being a submariner is being brutally honest with yourself
and others. You know, if you make a mistake,
you say, hey, I screwed up and people will make mistakes,
right? And I think that's like central
to all of leadership is, is knowing that everybody is going
to make mistakes. Like, you know, it's just, it's
just a fact. Now, it doesn't mean that every

(35:01):
time a person on a submarine makes a mistake, the ship is
going to sink because we have processes in place that protect
us against that. So if I make a mistake and
something local called bad as a place.
So I can't think of a better word, but you know, something
untoward occurs. Um, if you practice just talking

(35:25):
about it and, and, and, and likewe did in the Navy, like you
just knew, like if you, if you made a mistake, if you hide that
or you're not truthful about what you were thinking and you,
why you did what you did, you'rebeing selfish to the person
who's going to do that after youbecause maybe they'll make the
same mistake. Maybe we need to change the

(35:46):
procedure. Maybe we need to change the
process. You know, maybe there needs to
be a second check. Maybe I should be a two person
evolution and not a one person evolution, right?
It it's it robs us from the ability to learn how to do it
better in the future. Right.
And, and I think this is just methinking as a civilian there,
because I had a DEA agent that came on that met on a Navy ship

(36:10):
at a certain point. And he noticed that on the Navy
ship, since it's so massive thatit was a fucking that it was a
airplane carrier. So imagine how big that is.
So, and he noticed that there were so many different groups of
people like there was, there was, it was not a whole team
working to make this boat go forward.

(36:31):
But I think it's because of the size.
I I think it's that it's like a huge shitty.
I go to Montreal. People don't give a shit about
nobody but my city where 8000 I go to store, people hold the
door, say hi. I think since you guys are like
confined and in a small space, like might as well get along and
figuring it out and move on. And so so I think.

(36:52):
That people. I think that's how the blueprint
of teaching that the guys were made there, because you're stuck
with these guys. You can't even throw him
overboard because you're underwater.
So you got to deal with these people.
That's funny. Yeah, you know, you're right.
And, and I will tell you what, if you deploy anyone you've
deployed with, so you've done 6-7 months on submarine with,

(37:15):
you probably know as well as your own brother or sister.
Like you just know everything about them because you see
everyone. You see, you know what people
are like 5 seconds after they wake up.
You know what they're like when they're hungry.
You know what they're like when they're tired.
You know what they're like when they're frustrated.
You know how they what their primary means of conflict
resolution is. You know what triggers are,

(37:37):
although as as an aside, you have to you have to pretty thick
skin to be on a submarine because especially as a new guy,
you're going to get tested. And you know, on a submarine, we
always say like, if you have things that bother you, don't
let anyone know that. Like as soon as people know,
like let's say you just have a thing about repetitive noises,

(38:00):
right. So if I'm doing this on the day
I don't like that, you better damn never tell anyone that
because I can guarantee you thatif somebody knows that people
will do this on the desk every time you walk into a room, you
know it just you know, And so you just gotta keep.
Just a test your limit. Yeah, it's just you're

(38:21):
constantly being tested. I remember my first shit.
This my first shower on a submarine.
I came out of the shower and allmy clothes and towels were gone.
And then I tried to get to my rack and somebody had locked it.
And then all the other birthing areas were locked so I couldn't
like grab someone else's towel. And they were just fucking with

(38:45):
me and they wanted to see how how I would react.
And I remember thinking like, I'm standing there naked.
And I remember thinking like, alright, you want to get nuts,
let's get nuts. So I went back to the engine
room naked, and I was like, all right, who's going to give me
back my clothes or we're going to wrestle for it.
Yeah. And they were immediately like,

(39:05):
OK, here, here, here's your clothes.
Just go away, you know? And they never mess with me
again. Yeah, but if you would have
reacted like come on man, who fucking did this to me?
Ohk, there were like, oh, this guy every time we're gonna get
him once a month at least. So for sure giving that person
that reaction. Well, it just creates that bully
to just want to do it and in a way again there to tease you

(39:27):
their first. But you shouldn't were not
Julian like want to wrestle naked right now.
It's OK, close. Yeah, I mean, there's a, there's
a I could, I could talk all day about the the types of
shenanigans that go on. Audrey and and those in those
environments are like even the DA talked about that like these

(39:50):
people are so family and are certain point that you're
fucking with them on the daily just to make this life of stress
just a bit more interesting and fun at the same time of we're
doing something great for the country to.
Yeah. And it's funny, I was, I didn't
realize it, but when I was on a submarine, I was a pretty gruff
leader. And I didn't even know that I

(40:11):
was like, you know, if someone came to me like, hey, they they
would call me Engine Enge for short, for engineer.
And you know, my response would always be like, what, what do
you want? You're going to ruin my day
today. What's your new what you know,
what do you? And it was just the way I just,
it just, it didn't mean. Anything.
It breaks the ice. I think it breaks the ice, yeah.

(40:32):
Like. And when I when I left the
submarine, the guys in my department actually made a
plaque which I is in a moving box somewhere nice with all the
quotes that I have said. That's awesome.
Wow, that's really. Thoughtful.
I didn't even realize I said it.Like for example, one of them
that was on the on the the plaque said.

(40:55):
And I don't remember saying this, but one time I got really
angry at someone and I said if you do that again, I'm going to
shoot your dog. And if you don't have a dog, I'm
going to buy you a dog and I'm going to shoot it just.
It's still not adding amazing, thoughtful gift of the plaque.
I honestly man, I, I never thought somebody would think

(41:18):
that to give to somebody that isvery, very thoughtful.
But, but, but when I got out of the military and I, I knew I had
to, you know, like you're no longer on a submarine.
But even with the knowledge of that, I still sometimes get
surprised how sensitive people are in the civilian world,

(41:42):
right? I remember one time.
At first, sure. It was like my first job as a
civilian and something didn't goright.
So I called the team meeting andyeah, it's pretty direct, but I
wasn't. I don't think I was mean and
like on a scale of 1 to 10, I was probably out of three, or at

(42:02):
least I thought I was. Um, but then, uh, couple people
afterwards, we're like, you can't talk to us like that.
It was like like what? Like two people quit and I was
just like, holy shit. Like I gotta, I gotta rethink
this. Like I, I didn't.
So it just, you know, I find that it because there was this

(42:28):
like acceptable level of and it may have mattered because
although it's different now, at the time when I served,
submarines were all male, you know, and maybe that had
something to do with it. You know, it became a little bit
like a fraternity. I don't know.
I don't know. I just know that I had to make a

(42:49):
lot of adjustments to my leadership.
Style and I I think they're it'sbecause like since you're when
you're on their ship there people don't care about what
word is said is like of how it said it's the fact of what he
said really the the the sky fucking blew it.
They don't give a fuck and that there was a fuck in it.

(43:11):
This guy's blue. OK, that that we know.
So these people can deal with that though.
But when you go to real life, ifyou're saying that they're
they're they're like, oh, why are you hostile with me?
It was like, bro, is it can't. Can you get the fact that you
get the message? But I know you need to choose
different words for civilians because they won't be able to to

(43:31):
deal with that shit for sure. You said discipline.
Listening is crucial. Can you walk us through how you
learn to listen beneath the surface in both the military and
civilian settings? Yeah, it's another good
question. So in the submarine, you cannot
have a miscommunication. You just can't.

(43:53):
You know, if someone says, hey, go open that valve and you go
shut that valve, bad things could happen, right?
So yeah, on the submarine we have this kind of weird way of
talking and any order has to be repeated back, right.
So if I say say I'm working in the engine room.
They do the same in a plane. After an officer says something,

(44:16):
the other one repeats it just toconfirm.
That is good, I think. So and it can get pretty complex
meaning. Let me just give you an example.
Most nuclear evolutions are controlled from the control room
in the engine room, right? And there's an officer in there
who's in charge. And then there's somebody on the

(44:37):
phones. There's sound powered phones,
just, you know, the headphones and the talker.
And they're talking to the space, let's say engine room,
lower level, OK. And you're going through a
procedure and the officer controls the procedure.
Let's say the next step is open charging valve 37, right?
So he'll say the phone talker, phone talker 2, engine room

(44:59):
lower level, open charging 37. And then the phone talker will
turn around and say 2, engine lower level, open charging
through seven I. And then he says engine lower
level, engineer lower level maneuvering, open charging 37.
Then they'll repeat that back and say open charging through
seven I. They'll open charging through 7.
Then they'll say charging through 7 is open and the

(45:21):
maneuvering will say charging through 7 is open I.
And then he'll say engine still watch charging 37.
That's where 1 valve. So you know the listening part.
Is it's to make sure there's no error.
Can't be. There just can't be.
And yeah, they just can't be. So you really have to be a good

(45:45):
listener on a submarine, and that's for like what I just
described as a very normal. Yeah, so imagine a one in panic
there. Then it's hard, like we run a
lot of drills on ourself, right?So like we'll do steamline
rupture drills. Like what would happens if one
of these steam lines just breaksflooding drills?

(46:06):
You know what happens if we get flooding fire drills and when
those happen, man, it is it is intense.
And you got especially as an officer, you got all these
people talking to you and you have to be able to figure out
very quickly, OK, that's a priority.
That is not, you know, I'm goingto 2nd tier of this third tier
of this and it just never stops.So if force and you never know,

(46:32):
and this is true, I think in life too, right?
Like different people make reports differently, right?
So there's a a human nature tendency to latch on to the
loudest, most emotional report. But usually that's not the way
it works, right? Usually it's the kid in the
corner who has some information and he says off their deck, R32

(46:54):
is closing fast or, you know, something like that.
But it's in the midst of all this other stuff.
And so you really have to learn to listen to what's being said
to you and not how it's being said to you, right?
Especially in intense or intensemoments.

(47:15):
And then I think in the civilianworld, you know, it's, it's, you
know, it's different. But I think you know, I, I've, I
have kind of two North stars when it comes to listening.
You'll 1 is and I know that, youknow, like Pulp Fiction said

(47:36):
this, everyone says this like, you know, don't just wait for
your turn to speak, but listen. And you stopped formulating what
you're going to say next. Just let your brain rest.
Listen to what's being said and you'll have a response to just
trust yourself, but be present to that person because it not

(47:57):
only is it the way to absorb what they're having to say, it's
the best way to make sure someone feels heard right.
So if I'm if I'm taking notes and checking e-mail and on the
phone, I probably can hear what that person says.
Probably right? But they don't feel heard.
Exactly. You know, and then the second

(48:19):
one actually learned I did, I did some improv for a few years
just for fun. And the number one rule of
improv is it's called yes and right.
So if someone says like, umm, hey, Uncle Fred, you know, just
making it up and you say I'm notUncle Fred, well, you just
ruined that person. You double down on everything.

(48:42):
You just ruined it. Like she's he she set up a thing
where your Uncle Fred so you'd be Uncle Fred.
So it's like, yes, I'm Uncle Fred and meet my pet chinchilla,
right? And so the yes, and has helped
me a lot when I hear even if I disagree with something that
someone says, I try to validate what they say first, right.
So if they say, hey, I really think we should do a I say,

(49:04):
yeah, I I totally get your concern and we should be focused
on this threat as well. What are your thoughts on that
or And so that's those are like kind of my 2 N stars when it
comes to listening. Yeah, just the fact of
acknowledging what the person says before answering, even even
if you were like, oh, no, we're doing this, but instead of being

(49:28):
like, oh, that, and that's really good.
But what we need to do right nowis that, well, at least that the
person feels heard and not just like, Oh my God, OK, I just got
to do this. And it really changes the
dynamic of it between a person and another.
There you mentioned that a success isn't just about having
the the loudest voice at like, like you just said.

(49:49):
How did that philosophy play outin in the submarine and and
apply now in your leadership? Umm, you know, I don't think we
had a great way of dealing with it.
I think there was a couple things that we did that were
interesting. If we were going to do something
relatively risky, we would set tripwires before we did the

(50:15):
thing, right? So we would say, hey, if we meet
any of these tripwires, we're going to abort the mission,
right? So if visibility drops below 200
yards, if, if we have more than 25 contacts on the surface that
we can see, you know, if, if we hear a sonar from another ship,

(50:36):
that's greater than a certain number of decibels, right.
So you, you set before you startall the things that are really
important. And then if it, if you meet one
of those criteria, somebody in the control room will say
tripwire and then you know, visibility less than 200 yards.
So that word tripwire latches everybody.

(50:57):
On for sure. And, you know, can you do that
in the civilian world? Yeah, it depends what you're
doing, right? And power plants you can, and
refineries you can. You know, can you do it in a
retail store? Probably not, you know, but
there's it's still worth it. Goes back to the preparation
thing, right? Before we do anything, we're

(51:19):
going to talk about, you know, what is the worst case scenario
here, right? And not only what the worst case
scenario is, and this is, this is often lost on people.
I know this is a little bit in the safety realm, but like what
is different today? Because most catastrophes
somehow go back to something is different today than it was

(51:42):
yesterday, right? So if you look at the, the,
this, the space, the Challenger space shuttle explosion and 86,
I guess it was, it was really cold that day and much colder
than they ever predicted it to be.
And then there were O rings thatweren't rated for that
temperature, which turned out tobe the reason why it exploded.

(52:06):
But something was different thatday.
And so I always try to focus with my team.
Like when you're about to do something that's hazardous, not
only do you need to talk about what can go wrong, but you have
to talk about we outcome upset conditions.
But you know what is different today?
Maybe there's a new guy on the crew they haven't worked with
before. Maybe the customers pushing you

(52:27):
to in terms of the sense of urgency to get the work done
quicker than you're comfortable with.
Maybe it's raining outside. All these things can can play
into the consequences of the dayand need to be addressed, you
know, up front. Absolutely for the uncomfortable
truth section. Tell us an uncomfortable truth

(52:48):
about being a a submarine officer.
If you want a friend, get a dog.That is good.
What's a deeply uncomfortable truth that you had to face about
your own bias? Um, I think, you know, I grew up

(53:12):
in a, in a town in New Jersey that was primarily Irish and
Italian. It really wasn't exposed to any
other cultures other than Irish and the Italian communities.
So in fact, if I'm being very honest, you know, I didn't
really have any friends of colour.

(53:33):
And my experience, we lived right next, right next to my
town was a town called Patterson, which is a very high
crime rate city. Yeah, that's where the DEA was
working. That's a weird that you
mentioned that. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's a pretty rough place and
the only time in my whole childhood I ever worked with

(53:55):
someone or ever encounter people, people my age of colour
was when they there was some sort of criminal activity in in
the town, right? I mean, I just the fact, I mean,
I 5th grade was driving my bike home and a bunch of guys, bunch
of kids about my age stopped me and tried to steal my bike.

(54:15):
And so I didn't want to be racist.
Like, yeah, I don't, I don't. I have no desire to be for sure.
But I think I had some. Guys, it's never that the skin
colour that that that creates that person.
It's his environment. And but when you were kids, we
we assimilate that all. It's the colour that goes with

(54:37):
that because that's what we see.But because we don't have an
understanding of life yet there.Are 100% and so, you know, that
took a little bit of getting used to.
You know, I've never been, I've never had a a negative word to
say about any group. Yeah, I mean, every person I'm
fine with. But, you know, there were some
residual thoughts that I had. And that's not just true of, you

(55:01):
know, minority groups. I mean, I, I never traveled to
the Southeast. So meeting people from
Mississippi and Alabama and, youknow, I mean it have certain
preconceived notions about, you know, what they're going to be
like. And none of that's.
True, we're often surprised. Yeah.
In fact, you know, the one thingI've not only from working with

(55:22):
so many different people in the in the Navy, but also visiting
so many different countries, youknow, the one thing I learned is
that we're all the same. You know, there really isn't
that much of a difference between us, right?
We want what's best for ourselves, our families.
We want clean water, clean air. You know, we want to take care
of our children. Like, there's really not that

(55:43):
much difference between any of us on this planet.
Exactly there there was a video that went viral of a homeless
guy that explained that he takescontainers and metal and he put
black, white and a yellow and the other one and it's a silver
container and he puts water in it and he's like they're all the

(56:04):
same. What's in it?
What's good thing it's all the same container inside there.
It's just the exterior that you have a pre knowledge but you
taste it. It all tastes the same because
we're all human at the end of everything.
How did you, how did you, how did you ever realize that you
were? Did you ever realize you were
maybe the villain and somebody else's story?

(56:26):
And how did that and how did andhow did you deal with that?
Yeah, So we were, when I got to my last submarine, the USS Key
West, the engineering departmentwas in bad shape.
And we do like Navy does this inspection every year and they
got like the lowest grade you could get on the inspection.

(56:47):
I mean, still considered safe, but marginally, yeah.
And so I was given the assignment to be the chief
engineer on that submarine. And it was a tough, it was a
tough slog. And we were getting ready for
the inspection and I overheard one of the actually it was a
reactor operator. I overheard him say that he

(57:10):
hopes that we got an average on the exam.
And, you know, in retrospect, I understand what he was saying.
He was saying, look, if you get too high of a grade, the
expectations are too high that you'll continue that.
And if you get too low of a grade, there's a lot of
attention on you for that as well.
He wanted to be right in the middle of the road.
And I was not OK with that. You know, I was like, we are

(57:32):
going to knock this at. The thing out.
Of the park and and and send a message to the fleet and that
was my message. So when I heard him say that
pretty influential guy in the department, I just lost my shit.
And you know, I took him back inthe back of the engine room and
screamed at him and, and then and then calmed down and
explained, you know, I asked him, I said, why do you think I

(57:54):
want such a good grade on this? You know, we had a we had a
conversation about it, but I didremove him from the engine room
for a couple weeks and he was washing dishes for a couple
weeks. So did I overreact?
Yeah, I overreacted. You know, was I the bad guy in
his story? Yep, that was the bad guy in his
story. I know why I did what I did, but

(58:15):
it was probably an overreaction.Yeah, it's often in a rich
respect that when we relook at those kinds of things that we
learn from them. I'm somebody that thinks and
everything I think and feel, I say.
And I lost some jobs because because of it.
And it's always in retrospect, because at that moment when I'm
arguing and I'm going to probably lose my job, I don't

(58:37):
give a fuck because I'm right. But like right when I get home,
I'm like, what the fuck? Like bro, why did I react that
way? And it's always in retrospect.
We got so much a train of knowledge that hits us after
they're what's an uncomfortable truth about human nature that
your career I've shown you. Um, I think people avoid paying

(59:07):
more than they seek out pleasure, and as a consequence
most people are very risk averse.
That's not my personality at all.
In fact, I'm pretty comfortable with risk.
Um, and risk takes all types of forms and fashion, right?
It doesn't mean jumping off that.

(59:27):
Yeah, You know, it could mean even just changing up a
procedure because it's. Yeah, yes, this one's worked for
20 years, but it kind of sucks. And we could do better if we did
this, that yeah, it's a risk. And I feel like most people are
afraid of anything that could potentially bring them pain in

(59:50):
their life. You know, even if there's all
this upside, it just, it's not. And and research has supported
this, right? So like $5 loss at a casino?
Hurts more than a $5 win at a casino.
That is so true. Let's talk about the echo
chamber effect. With so many, so much division

(01:00:12):
nowadays, how do we get out of the echo chambers and engage
with new ideas without feeling like we're compromising our
values? And so, you know, I think it's
it's and particularly relevant today because I don't think
we've ever been this divided. Yeah, me neither.

(01:00:35):
And I'm worried about it because, you know, without
getting into politics too much here, unless that's your thing,
we're gonna be OK. Meaning, like what?
No matter how you feel about thecurrent administration, America
is gonna be just fine, right? But we're gonna be left with
each other, meaning there's seven.
You know, no matter how you feelabout the situation, there's 75,

(01:00:59):
give or take millions of people who disagree with you and
they're not going anywhere. Yeah.
You know, and and neither, neither is the other group,
right. So we got to figure out a way to
talk to each other and what I have emphasized in a various
platforms just curiosity, right?We need to bring back curiosity

(01:01:21):
like so you know, for example, you know, my wife and I are on
different sides of the politicalfence, right?
But I don't think she's a stupidperson, and she doesn't think
I'm a stupid person, you know? And in the course of our
day-to-day activities, she nevercatches me doing something that
that's idiotic, right? Yeah.

(01:01:42):
So we respect each other's intellect.
But then when it comes to politics, it's like, oh, you are
you crazy and you're brainwashing.
It's like, oh, calm down. Calm down.
Like it'd be better to understand.
Like, you know what I tell people is, have you ever had a
political conversation with someone where they said to you

(01:02:03):
midway through the conversation,hey, you know what, You're right
and I'm wrong. Thank you for correcting.
People are guys. I know that's so rare.
Oh my God. What, One in a million?
Yeah. Yeah.
So. But then why do we, why do we
communicate as if that's what we're trying to achieve?

(01:02:25):
Like it's never going to happen,but yet that's the way we talk.
Like we're trying to convince the other person that they're
wrong. Well, that's never going to
work. The only way people change their
minds is if they change their own minds.
Right. And so we can ask questions that
are not bad faith questions, like, you know, how could you

(01:02:46):
be? How could you be so brainwashed?
Like that's a bad question, right?
But a good faith question of like, tell me more.
Like, tell me, you know what? Why are you?
You know, why do you feel the way you feel?
Like what policy do you like of this president?
Like something tell me, tell me your opinion so you get more
yourself an understanding of whyhe's basing his opinion on that.

(01:03:07):
And that makes you like less critical of him because there
there's some there's a foundation of why he's he's
doing that. And that's very.
Important. If you put me in a room of 10
people and everyone had a different opinion on something
than me, I may not change my opinion, but I'm probably gonna

(01:03:31):
listen because I'm outnumbered. 12:50 like, for sure.
What are they thinking that I'm not thinking right?
Yeah, that's 10 people. Not a lot of knowledge you can
gain. Well, but think about 75 million
people, and I don't mean it's right or left, right, cause it's
about the same number of votes. They're all idiots. 5 million of

(01:03:57):
these people, like, how is that possible?
It's not possible, right? Exactly.
So it's coming back to respecting our neighbor,
respecting our family and friends and being curious and
and just give it up. Stop trying to win political
arguments. Like it's not helping anyone.
It's not helping you, it's not helping them.
Just stop it. And I think what I've learned

(01:04:20):
from, because I've kind of been studying this for about a year
or so now, and I think what I'velearned, I know what I've
learned is that when people talkpolitics, especially today,
they're not really talking politics.
They're talking about their own identity, like somehow their
perception of the situation in the country that whatever is

(01:04:43):
tied to their personal identity.And so we could be talking about
immigration and, and the words sound like we're talking about
immigration, but we're actually not like we're defending our own
egos, right? I mean, we're defending like
your your brain thinks it's in astreet fight.

(01:05:03):
Protect itself, right? Like I'm being attacked.
Today. Yeah.
And, and once you realize that, once you realize like this
person's not talking about immigration, they're just not,
it doesn't mean they can have anopinion on it, but that's not
why they're so worked up. They're worked up because they
feel like you're attacking them as a person.

(01:05:25):
And so, you know, in fact, it's funny, I, I've been on a decent
amount of podcasts of late and one of the, the podcasts that I
was on was a, a couple therapy podcast and I got, I have 0
experience in that. But some one of the there was a
man and a wife who ran the podcast and someone had seen one

(01:05:45):
of my YouTube videos and and thought it would be good to kind
of discuss that. But it, it is, I mean it, it is
kind of interesting how like kind of applicable that was.
Like it wasn't, it wasn't completely off the radar from
what we just said just now, right, like, like and and and a
good North star for me that I'llshare has been in all cases seek

(01:06:09):
to 1st understand before being understood, right?
Like that's not true, but launching into all the reasons
why you think a certain way. You may feel good but no one's
listening. To you exactly.
I like that there's a line in your work about the hidden cost
of winning arguments when we allthink that the goal is to win an

(01:06:31):
argument. You said that winning an
argument isn't always the goal. People.
What's your take on why so many people today are so obsessed
with that? Winning these conversation at
all costs instead of maybe extracting information of the
other person. The point I mean, and I think
the question you raised expands the topic, right?

(01:06:54):
So it's not just politics anymore.
I think, you know, if I'm you have a people that work for me
and someone says, hey, Matt, I think, you know, we have a
situation. I think I'm going to do A at,
you know, a is going to work andI'm thinking myself is better.
Well, if I I have to assess how much better is BS because if B

(01:07:19):
isn't that much better, you know, maybe take the L on this
and you know, let that person doit's safe, it's OK.
It might not be the A+ solution,but you your relationship with
that person has improved and you've showed that you trust
them to do their job. If every time I'm constantly

(01:07:41):
because, you know, I've been around longer.
So I probably do know a better way of doing something, not
because I'm smarter, just because I've seen this a lot,
right? But that's exhausting to other
people, and it's demoralizing, right?
So you can win an argument and you can even be right and win

(01:08:02):
the argument. And I think it was Andy Stanley
who said don't ever exchange theeffort to be right versus the
effort to make a difference, right.
So. Like if you're a know it all,
you're never going to make a difference in your team.
No. You're just not, I mean, people
shut you down and you may be right and you may know a lot and

(01:08:24):
people listen to you. But if you're if you think that
you're going to, you know, become a leader that people talk
about 10 years later and be the type of leader where your people
stay in touch with you after thefact and you're not going to
know it all. Don't, don't get that privilege.
No, no, not at all. You talk about exposing the
blind spots that derail decisionmaking.

(01:08:46):
How do you personally train yourself and others to spot
those blind spots that derail decision making?
Your job, man. Another great question.
I appreciate it. The the most dangerous piece of
information or knowledge gap is when we don't know what we don't

(01:09:09):
know, right? Like, I know I don't know how to
cook lasagna. I know that I don't, right?
So if someone said, hey, can youcook some lasagna, I'd say Nope,
don't know how to do that, right?
I know that I don't know that. But then there's things I don't
know that I don't know, right? So like, I could be driving.

(01:09:29):
I live close to Detroit, you know, I could be driving in some
area of Detroit that I really shouldn't be in, but I don't
know that. But I don't know that.
I don't know that. Yeah.
Love your blind spots and you know, I think there's two things
about blind spots. 1 is, um, we all have them and it's really

(01:09:50):
hard to ask people what our blind spots are.
Most people won't tell you because they don't want to hurt
your feelings. And the people who do tell you
will hurt your feelings. So yeah, you're going to get
your feelings hurt if you want to know what your blind spots
are. And then the second part that I,
it's kind of counter to the first part, but I'll say it
anyway. You know if your if your child

(01:10:14):
brought home a report card and it was 4A's and AC, what are we
going to be talking about with that child?
For sure. Which is ridiculous, right?
And what did Einstein get in poetry in his what grade did he
get? I have no idea, but who cares?
You know, his gift to the world is math and science.

(01:10:35):
And and I think we spend so muchtime in our organizations trying
to strengthen our weaknesses or individuals weaknesses.
And it's like, look, if this guy's not good at
administration, you're never going to make him an
administrative star. So why not just leverage his
skills? Girls.
Yeah. And whatever they are so that he

(01:10:55):
can be the very best at it. And then.
Passionate. Well.
That is that so now that doesn'tprotect my blind spots, but it
protects me from the blind spotsof my team, right?
Like, I look, I know you have a blind spot here and instead of
trying to improve it like we're A-Team here, like if it was just
me and you stranded on a desert island, well then I guess we

(01:11:16):
gotta deal with blind spots, right?
But we're not, we have a team here.
So that's, that's kind of one way that I deal with it.
But in terms of my own blind spots, I think it's just a lot
of self reflection anytime something doesn't go quite
right. And small or large, I always
clean up my side of the street first, you know, before I blame
someone else. It's like, OK, well, let's think

(01:11:38):
about this, Matt. What could you have done
differently? And that's just not.
And I do that in my marriage, you know, when something doesn't
go right. That's the way to do.
It playing my complain about anything and make sure my side
of the street is clean. You know that I was there
anything at all I could have done differently?
That that is so solid. I had a girl on and she said
about relationships, like a lot of people, relationships are

(01:12:00):
like, oh, my husband doesn't do this.
He doesn't do that. All he he's not happy when he
comes home instead of being like, what can I do to make this
relationship better? Is is like she's like saying,
right when I started doing that,wow, it changed everything.
It changed everything. He started becoming the person
out because I'm doing my part and the person on their site is

(01:12:20):
going to start doing his if you did yours.
But if you're like, oh, you should do this and that,
sometimes a person is going to react in the other way and push
back like like, oh, fuck off andbe even more pissed.
And so it just creates hostility.
So understanding those is fucking crucial.
Look, you're talking about. Just one more thing topic if I
could the and at the I I don't mean to be self promoting here,

(01:12:45):
but I did just I it matches withthis conversation here.
I did just write a book on that topic and the book is called
actualization and in fact, I have it right.
I have a copy of it right here. And what the, what the, what,
what the seed of this book was the exact thing that you just

(01:13:05):
said. Yeah, I, I bet 10 years ago I
went through a divorce and I waskind of reflecting on things and
I read something that changed meforever.
And and then was eventually the the reason I wrote that book and
the thing that I heard was it was about dating.
And it said stop looking for Mr.or Mrs. Wright and start

(01:13:28):
becoming Mr. or Missus right There you go.
And I was like, holy shit. So simple but wow.
I I'm opening. Like and, and and so where that
kind of expanded to was this thought about our goals about
like, I'll use myself as an example.
Like I, my goal is to become an acclaimed nonfiction writer,

(01:13:49):
right? I want, I want people to know my
name. I want my books to be sold
everywhere. I'm old enough to just admit
that that's my goal, right? Just this.
And there's no problem with that.
I'm not. I'm not going to, you know, some
people, even myself at a youngerage, don't really want to say
what we really want, you know, But I'm 51 years old.
That's what I want, right? But I'm starting to believe that

(01:14:15):
our goals aren't really what we should be focused on.
Meaning it's kind of like, my goal is to find Mr. and Mrs.
Wright, like, OK, well, that's agood goal, but the way to go
about it is to work on yourself,not trying to obtain something,
right? So instead of me worried about,
well, what book is going to be on the New York Times bestseller

(01:14:37):
list, just start to become the author that you want to be,
right? Like, So what?
What are the types of things would this person do?
Would they write every day? Yeah, probably.
You know, would they have discussions like this with
interesting people? Yeah.
You know, would they help out aspiring writers who haven't
published yet? Yeah.

(01:14:58):
So just start doing all the things that like the hero in
your movie would do and those goals will just come naturally,
right? Instead of like swimming
upstream to because, you know, sometimes people say, well, you
know, start with a smaller goal and was like, you don't need a
smaller goal. You need a bigger sell, right?

(01:15:20):
You got to build yourself up so you have the strength to to
carry those goals. You know, it's possible.
Like going back to the Mr. and Mrs. Wright thing, it's like a
card. It's like a dog chasing a car.
Like, if you're not ready for it, OK, fine.
You catch it. You're not ready to be in a
relationship with Missus Wright,so that was that's really

(01:15:42):
shouldn't have been your. Goal.
Exactly, building yourself is soimportant and and no matter if
it's your career, relationships and everything, there is the
biggest construction you're going to do in your life there.
A lot of people focus on on soldthe wrong things when just being
a decent human being yourself and building your knowledge and
understanding of others. Why people are pieces of shit.

(01:16:03):
It's not because that person's apiece of shit, because his
perception of what he lived through and everything creates
this person, but a lot of peoplethat can't even comprehend that
that that kind of stuff. Yeah, you talk about the
importance of seeing the great areas because a lot of people
are like the black and white there and a lot of people are
argue that there's always no middle ground.

(01:16:24):
But in your work you're stressedthe importance of this nuance.
Why do you think this nuance is so critical in conversation, and
how how can we reintroduce this to people there?
Great. Another great question, a tough
question. I think the older I get, the
more I see Shades of Grey, right?
Like I when I was younger, I wasdefinitely more black and white

(01:16:47):
and I think that's pretty typical.
I think the more you experience in life, the more you realize
you know, everything. Shades of Gray.
It just is, you know? I know, you know, I guess, I
guess we could come up with a couple things that are black and
white, but not many. And you know, I don't really
know, I don't have a great answer to your question in terms

(01:17:09):
of like, you know, how do we, well, what do we do with that
information? I think you know the there's a
couple things that I have learned to mitigate that.
So people like certainty, right?So if you can give people
certainty, they like that. And in fact, sometimes leaders

(01:17:31):
who are overly confident, more confident than they should be,
actually do better simply because they're able to project
this sense of, look, I know it all just followed me and it's
certainty, right? People latch on to that
certainty. And oftentimes that's kind of a
black and white. So if I'm the boss or the leader

(01:17:52):
and I come into a room and we'regoing to talk about a problem
and I see this all the time, right?
Person says, hey, we have a problem.
I've seen this before, we're going to do XY and Z.
But I really respect your guys opinions and, you know, I need I
need to hear you tell me why I'mwrong.

(01:18:14):
What's your input? And they think that they're
doing the right thing, but they've already poisoned the
well. Yeah, by saying what they
thought. So, you know, I've learned to
start with the the youngest guy in the room and say, how would
you solve this? And then just go.
Around OK. Then at the end, I can say, OK,
well, thanks for your input. I'm listening to all of what you

(01:18:36):
guys said and I appreciate that.I think this is what we're going
to do, right? And.
Everybody feels like that they had a part in in that decision.
And we're more likely to draw out the Gray areas.
Absolutely. If the leader says, hey, we're
going to do this, everyone says,yeah, I think that's a good
idea. And then you could convince
yourself that it is a good idea.Yeah, make yourself, you know,

(01:18:58):
it's kind of like convincing yourself that you've become
funnier as you get more senior because because people laugh at
your jokes. No one ever laughed at your
jokes before. You didn't get funnier.
You know, people are just kind of telling you what you want to
hear. And your idea of mental judo is
quite brilliant. How did you develop the skill
and of shifting perspectives without creating this resistance

(01:19:23):
to most people? Yeah, I, I think it's about
really lowering people's defences by staying, you know,
at the risk of repeating myself here, staying by staying.
Curious, right. So dropping the defence of I

(01:19:45):
want to be right, I'm going to be right, you know, this is my
ego at stake and just relaxing and listening to people.
And you know, there's, there's tons of ways to get people to
reconsider their own opinions without shoving it down their
throat, right? I mean, you can there, there's a

(01:20:07):
series of skills. And I I wrote a small book about
this called Mental Judo. Yeah, the art of a graceful
influence. That's right.
That's right. And it's a small book, but it
has about 7 different strategieslike questions, right?
So for example, we say. You know, we say, hey, what if

(01:20:32):
we did this? What's the worst that could
happen? But what could go wrong?
Like if we did this and it was the wrong decision, in three
months from now, what would we be saying?
What would we regret? And let the other person say
that, right? Sometimes just silence, just
listening and just saying, interesting, right?

(01:20:52):
All you really want to do it, itreminds me of that movie
Inception, right? All you really want to do in in
these heated conversations is just plant the seed.
That's the best you can do. And then let that seed grow in
that person's head. And they'll never say, oh, I
changed my mind because of Matthew Geronimo.

(01:21:14):
You know, they'll say, oh, I just changed my mind on this
topic because of and you'll never hear your you'll never get
credit. For it?
Yeah. For.
Sure. And that's fine, right?
It's if that's not, you know that's not your goal.
It's never my goal, right? So that would be kind of my my
thoughts. Absolutely, yeah.
And because I I, I checked out your your book because of that.

(01:21:36):
And it reveals like a a powerfulyet I can't even say subtitle
like like approach to the this influence.
And it doesn't like a rely on just the charisma that most
people would think or the loud opinions or or somebody having
authority. I think of why you used it as
the the martial arts of judo. It's because judo is all about

(01:21:59):
redirecting and keeping the energy at the same time.
So I think that that's how you why you called it that mental.
Yeah, I kind of figured that outbecause I like martial law
martial arts. I was like, OK, so for that
critical thinking apart, thinking outside the box mean
two things people should try at least once in their life.

(01:22:20):
Um, at #1 I think we, we should,We should address our fears head
on one at least once, right? So I'm, you used to be pretty
fearful of heights. So you know what I do?
I went skydiving, you know, and like, just to like, just say,

(01:22:43):
like, look, I'm gonna tackle this freaking thing, you know,
and what's the, what's the way Ican think of like go jump out of
an airplane. And, and there's, there's,
there's a lot of power in that, right?
Because most of our fears are irrational, right?
Yeah. And and we know that, but yet we
still can't get quite get over it.

(01:23:03):
So for me, exposure to our fearsis is very powerful.
You know, the other thing, and it's a tough question.
I've been, if I thought about itfor a long time and probably
have better. I think you know, the other
thing you know, that I would highly recommend people try is
and we kind of talked about it is, you know, take something

(01:23:29):
that you're so passionate about and do your best to present the
other side, right? So for example like if I'm very
anti immigration. Or do do devil's advocate.
That's what, Yeah, but force yourself to say, OK, hold on a

(01:23:52):
second. Let me just for my own benefit,
make all the cases. Why, you know, just no one's
listening. I'm just just just do it, you
know, And in fact, I, I think Jeff Bezos, Bezos from Amazon
does this. Who knows?
I mean, a lot of everything you read, you can't trust.
But yeah, I I read that when Amazon has kind of a

(01:24:17):
disagreement between two groups,that's what Jeff Bezos makes
them do. They they start the meeting,
each group has to state the argument of the.
Other. OK, yeah, I, I learned it at
like doing debates that that's the best way to do it.
I understand completely his point of views of how he's going

(01:24:38):
to come up. So it become a it helps you
become a better communicator. At the same time, what's an
example of a situation where thinking out though I outside
the box, help you solve a problem that others probably
couldn't? Um, yeah, so I, I kind of pride

(01:24:58):
myself in being a creative thinker, so I should have plenty
of examples. Yeah, for sure.
You know, on and the submarine, which is probably the best place
to start. We had a pump fail and as a

(01:25:18):
result we lost the ability to make water right.
So obviously it's pretty significant.
Right. Forever.
Yeah, correct. Huge crew.
You need water. Yeah, people need water.
Cooks need water to cook. And the mechanics were saying,
like, look, we can't fix it. And I remember saying, like,
look, that's not an option, man.Like, you can't, you can't fix

(01:25:39):
it. Like we're in the middle of
nowhere. We have no water.
Like we're fixing this fucking thing.
And we ended up using soda cans that we found in the garbage and
then in machining them, machining the aluminum flat and
then carving out these little pump shins that we put on the
shaft of the pump because the the the ones that were

(01:26:01):
manufactured were got all shredded and it worked.
Wow. You know, And it was, you know,
to me, I mean, I knew we'd figure it out eventually.
Yeah, smart guys. But to me, the biggest benefit
of that was seeing the departments realization that

(01:26:22):
like, holy shit, we did that, You know, like, yeah, we did
that. And it just kind of raised their
confidence to think outside the box and.
Like no matter what we got as ifwe can figure it out.
Yeah, I deal with that in the civilian world all the time.
And I always ask this horrible question, but I ask it anyway if
someone says, hey, we can't do that.
And so let me ask you a questionif your family's life was at

(01:26:45):
stake. Could you do it?
Cool. And they say, well, of course.
OK, well, so then don't say it'snot doable.
You could say, hey, this is too much work, you know?
Yeah, yeah, that makes. It worth the squeeze or whatever
you want to say, but don't tell me you can't do it.
Don't do it right. It's so good.

(01:27:06):
Can you share an instance where your intuition or gut feeling
made you to do a particular decision in your life?
Um, yes, so I mean, joining the Navy was a Gutfield thing.
I had no real evidence to support it being a good idea,
you know, but I did it anyway. I'm, I'm definitely more of a

(01:27:26):
gut feel kind of guy. I mean, I'm, you know, can be
analytical when I need to, but you know, my experience is that
most people overthink things. You know, the vast majority of
things we decide to do just don't matter.
They just don't. And so being able to know like
what matters and then putting your attention into that.

(01:27:48):
In fact, I've, I've often, I've written about something called
decision fatigue where you don'trealize it, but over the course
of the day, we make so many decisions and that tires our
brain out. So it doesn't leave the mental
energy that we need for the things that really matter,
right? That's why you see people like

(01:28:09):
President Obama, for example, only wore blue and grey suits,
right? And his wardrobe is very
limited. And he talked about and he said
I didn't want to make a decisionin the morning about what to
wear, right? I had too many already, yeah.
Yeah. And then you have people who
like eat the same meals all the time, right.
And it's and and and what I havefound and I don't do that or do

(01:28:30):
or the clothes extreme. But anything we can do to
simplify our lives, even make them boring, if you will, in the
in the routine parts of our lives.
Yeah, pay off huge benefits for the things that we really want
to put our mental horsepower to.Absolutely that that that is so
true. What?
What do you think is a harmless lies society tells people that

(01:28:54):
you think is is seriously long term damage?
Um, yeah, another good question.I think, and this is a little,
this is a hot take here. Here we go.
I think. I think we're telling ourselves

(01:29:14):
too much that you're fine just the way you.
Are. Oh yeah, that is so true.
Meaning, like, I get it. We, we there's a lot of things
about ourselves, the things thatwe cannot change that you're
fine. Like, don't worry about it,
right? Like, yeah, like I've had bad
skin my whole life, right? There's nothing I could do about
it. And at some point you just say,

(01:29:36):
like, that's it. Like that's, you know, and I'm
going to love myself regardless of that.
But when people say, hey, Matt, you kind of have a temper, well,
that's just who I am. I think that's bullshit.
You know, yeah. I think we're losing the
ability. Everyone seems to be a victim of
something, you know, instead of just saying, like, look, you're

(01:29:59):
what are you in control of? Go take control of that and stop
making excuses for why you can't.
And I've observed that more and more society is supporting that
victimhood and supporting that idea of like, oh, you didn't do
good in school. I don't worry about it.
Just you, you're, you're fine. Just, you know, it's like, well,
maybe you're not fine. Maybe you do have to go back to

(01:30:20):
school, or maybe you do have to find a job.
Maybe you do have to work hard at this.
Maybe you have to work harder because you're not as talented.
You know, a lot of the things that I think launched our
country success were about working harder to be better.
And I'm seeing us lose that a little bit.
That that, that that is so true to my goodness, that's a lot of

(01:30:43):
people nowadays are like just think that they don't need to
learn more or, or like like you said, like, oh, I can't do this.
I can't do that, bro, with that mindset at the start.
Well, I'm quite sure you're not going to build shit for sure.
Yeah, I think it was Henry Ford who said whether you think
you're right or you think you'rewrong, you're right.

(01:31:05):
Excuse me. Excuse me.
Whether you think you can or youthink you can't, you're right.
OK, yeah, language can influenceway more than action and a lot
of people can't figure that out there.
Can you share an example of how a small shift in in wording can
make it a huge impact? Yes.
So again, this is kind of a submarine example, but I've

(01:31:29):
carried it with me. I well, I guess the best way to
say it is that when I screwed itup when I was a junior officer
on the USS Hampton, I was in charge of the reactor protection
systems and we had a problem. It needed to be fixed.

(01:31:50):
There was a couple ways to fix it and I was asked to go to the
captain to brief him on what theproblem is and how we're going
to fix. So it was, you know, 24 or
something at the time and like going to the captain stateroom
and I say, captain, here's the problem and we could do A, B or
C to fix it. What would you like to do?
And I got grabbed by the scruff of my uniform out of the captain

(01:32:15):
stateroom by the engineer and hesaid don't ever talk to the
captain like that and I didn't no idea what the hell he was
talking. About, yeah.
Like what did I do wrong? He's like, you don't ask the
captain what he wants to do cause now you're making him the
single point failure. You know he's supposed to be the
backup to the system. So you say, hey, based on the
information I have, you know I intend to do B.

(01:32:38):
And the captain knows he's in charge.
You don't have to remind him. Yeah, you don't.
If you don't, if he doesn't likeit, he'll stop you and he'll say
no. I think we should do A, but my
point is getting people to stay.I intend to do blank instead of.
Can I do blank? Is a very, very small adjustment
to our language, but it. Might changes everything in the

(01:32:59):
world. Ohe, yeah, because if someone
comes to me and says hey, I intend to do blah blah, blah,
and I say great, you know, thanks, Thanks for letting.
Me know. Now it's on that.
Yeah, like they own it. Yeah, it was their idea.
They're the ones who said it. Now they gotta figure it all
out, you know, versus saying, hey, can I do this?
And I say yes, It's like, OK, well, the engineer gave me

(01:33:22):
permission, so I guess I'm fine.No, no, no.
This was your idea. Exactly.
I, I got four more and they're all about like some of your
different books there because I,I went through check them all
out and it was very interesting because I was thinking before
checking them out that it was more derived in One Direction.
But actually you got books abouta couple things.

(01:33:43):
So I, I really appreciated that you wrote a book a suck.
We struggled, therefore we are you talk you talk about the
value of discomfort and This is why the the show exists.
Look cause uncomfortable truth is where you grow at a certain
point. What's the biggest lesson that
struggle that taught you personally?

(01:34:05):
I think it was a realization that everything that we do,
we're going to suck at first. Exactly.
Me, Somebody that's like, oh, I don't want to do that.
I'm not good at it. Well, it's not by staying on the
bench, bro, that you're gonna become a Michael Jordan.
I can tell you that. What the hell?
That's right. And and you have to get through

(01:34:26):
the sock. You always, it's just, there's
no way around it. There's no easy button.
There's no sure. And the metaphor that I
sometimes use is like, if you'veever used a squeeze bottle of
mustard, you know, when you first squeeze it, all this junk
comes out, right? That's the suck.
And there's no way to get to themustard without getting through
that crap. And so, you know, for some

(01:34:47):
people, they get that that then they say, oh, I suck at this.
And they put it back on the counter and said, what were you
doing, man? You were so close.
Everything. She's going to try it that one
time. He's going to suck.
And then they say three months later, they tried again, you
know, and the same thing happened.
Ohgi sucks though. It's like, dude, no, you gotta
hang in there. Just get through the suck.

(01:35:08):
Everyone has a finite amount of suck in them for now.
Don't get me wrong, if you and Iboth decided to become, you
know, singers, you know one of us probably has a naturally
better voice than the other one.But that doesn't mean that I
can't work hard and compensate for that, right?
It might suck, maybe longer thanyour suck, but it still exists.
And we both suck still at the beginning.

(01:35:29):
So so it it it's like failure, failure always gonna happen
people. That's so getting used to it and
uncomfortable when it happens because it will happen.
It just helps you adapt and moveon to what way easier.
You've written a a multiple books and and made tough calls
in your life. What's been the hardest decision

(01:35:51):
in your journey and what help you go through it?
Um, there's been a lot of them. I think the one that I'll share
kind of long story, I'll try to make it brief.
We were, I was on a submarine and we were getting ready to get
underway, but it was just a training exercise.

(01:36:13):
It wasn't like a mission or anything.
And one of our, a bunch of our sea water pipes had failed an
inspection, meaning that the pipe wall with was too thin.
OK. And the technical manual said,
hey, if it's this thing, which ours were, do not go out to sea,
right? Fix this first and this was
going to be our captain's last underway before he changed

(01:36:36):
commands, so he really wanted it.
But yet my mechanics were like, what, what, what are we doing?
Like, how come we're always being told to follow procedure
and, you know, believe the source documents And now when
the captain doesn't want it, it doesn't matter, you know, and,
and I'd probably hurt my career a little bit by doing this, but

(01:36:59):
I, I don't care. It was, you know, I, I
challenged him and I challenged the captain and I said, hey,
look, I, I got to talk to you about this.
Meaning there's a lot of people on this boat that are concerned
about this. And, you know, he just got
pissed off. He didn't, he wasn't the type of
guy to reflect with me, you know, but it did force us to get
more technical resources to bearon the issue.

(01:37:22):
And the the subject matter experts said no, you can't go
out to see like this. It sucks in a way that like you
felt like you couldn't just tellhim what what what you said
there because like a in an airplane, it's completely
different. If you feel like the, the the
pilot is not realizing the danger that he's in.

(01:37:43):
The other one has 100% the call of taking control right away
because of that or, or giving his opinion out loud that they
there should never be a oh, I don't want to say this because
of his authority. And it's weird that in the
submarine it's like that a bit because I don't think growth is
the best, that I don't think that's the best way to get

(01:38:04):
growth out of your. Crew, yeah.
And I don't think it's fair to say that that's what submarines
were like. I think it's fair to say that's
what that captain was. Like, OK, yeah.
But I knew that and therefore I knew, and chances are if we had
gone out to sea for a couple of days it would have been fine,
probably right. But you never know.
I didn't write the manual like Ididn't, not the one who said,

(01:38:26):
you know, do not go out to sea in this circumstance.
Shake the rulebook of 1942, not mine and and I got two more last
ones and and bread crumbs that you offer a short leadership
insights. If you had to pick just one
bread crumb for someone to ensure their leadership voice,

(01:38:48):
what would it be? We go into 2060 twenty rule and
that is if you have 10 or more people, two of them are 20% will
hate everything about you. They will hate your ideas, they
will hate your face, they will hate your dog.
They just will hate you, right? Two of them will love you and it

(01:39:09):
doesn't matter what you say, even if your ideas are stupid,
they're going to follow them andthey don't need any supervision.
They're just going to go do their jobs.
And then it's the 60% in the middle that we really have to
concern ourselves with, right? And the two extremes are traps
because a lot of people latch onto these people that are griping

(01:39:31):
and bitching about things because they just can't help it.
It's like if you're a public speaker and there's somebody in
the front row who's doing this, there could be 1000 people in
the audience. You're like, what is going on
with that guy? Yes, that's a trap though,
because you're never gonna change those people's.
Minds. Exactly.
They're stuck on one side and the other one are stuck on the
other. It's that 60% that you can flip

(01:39:53):
through. Exactly and and unfortunately
you know this is not true everywhere.
But what I've seen is that the the people who bitch tend to be
a little bit more charismatic. I don't know why that is.
They just tend to have a little bit stronger of a gravitational
pull for this 60%. So if you do nothing, it is my

(01:40:16):
belief that that 60% will go over to the bad place, right?
And if you're so focused on, youknow, or the other trap is
saying, well, these, these, this20% love me.
Yeah. I must be doing something right.
Why can't I get the other, you know, 80%?
It's like they they, you know, they would love a coffee cup.
Who was in charge? Like.
Don't flatter yourself, right? So it's at 60% that you really

(01:40:40):
got to focus on. And I really I checked out your
your one of the last books there, the Deer Hunter.
I I, I really, I did expect thatfrom you like from seeing your
background in Earth Day. I was like, wow, this is
awesome. But and I, I didn't see it a lot
of books like this because I'm abook collector myself and I, I

(01:41:00):
didn't, I, I never seen a book like that.
So you, your book, A Deer Hunterfeels so deeply personal.
What was the most important lesson you hope your son or any
young man takes away from these letters?
Because what you do in the book,you take us through like the
life of a father and a son, thatwhat advice you would give him

(01:41:21):
through his life through the book.
And that is really beautiful. Thank you.
I mean, I think you know the number it's, I think it's 50
letters in there. So I'm not saying I'm going to
remember all of them, but the I think the one that's stuck with
me the most was the one about dealing with your inner critic.

(01:41:44):
And I think ironically, I think the title of that was a allow
yourself to suck, right? So it's a similar topic that we
were just talking about. But when that no matter what
you're doing, I mean, I write about it from the vantage point
of a writer, but it's true for anyone.
You're always going to have thatvoice inside of you that says
you suck while you're doing this.
It's never, you're never going to amount to anything.

(01:42:05):
You're wasting your time. And we all have it right.
And I've spent decades trying towrestle this thing.
And that letter just kind of tackled how I've had some
success. I'm not not perfect yet, but and
it kind of focused on almost themental judo thing with your

(01:42:27):
inner critic, right? Like it's like, look, I I know I
suck. You don't need to tell me.
Just go go bother someone else. Like yes, I.
Suck. And I'm going to do this anyway
and it's going to suck. And he comes back.
I know what you're doing. You can't fool me, blah, blah.
Yep, Yep, Yep. You're right.
You're right. Just just keep doing it like
whatever it is you want to do. You just got to keep showing up.

(01:42:48):
That's the hardest part. I mean, it's, it's, it's
somewhat ironic, right, That, you know, it's not the best
people that succeed. It isn't it just, I mean, we
like to think that the best writers are the ones who were
published. The best singers are the one who
get the contract. It's not.
It's the people who don't give. Up yeah exactly because the luck
has a lot to do with it and it'sjust that harder you work maybe

(01:43:12):
luckier you get but it's not always the the best one that
that that that gets it there. I I want to thank you for coming
on. I really appreciate you coming
on at work and everybody find you and buying your books.
OK, thanks Sam. I'm right now I'm mostly on sub
stack, so if you search my name on sub stack, I'm pretty easy to

(01:43:33):
find. I, I write a publication called
Beyond Platitudes, and that's kind of where I've settled in,
in terms of my writing. And then all my books are
available on Amazon. And if you search my name, Matt
D Geronimo, there's not too manyof us out there.
So. You'll find my author page
pretty pretty pretty quickly. Perfect.
So thanks again for coming on and you guys have a great

(01:43:55):
weekend. Thanks.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Retired Lieutenant Commander From Deep Below in a Nuclear Submarine to Deep Truths of Life EP80

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

All Episodes

Retired Lieutenant Commander From Deep Below in a Nuclear Submarine to Deep Truths of Life EP80

Stuff You Should Know