Retired US Intelligence Colonel Journey & The Lockwood Analytical Method for Prediction (LAMP) EP69

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So most category two boards ran for a maximum of two hours.
Mine ran for 9:00 because they Icross examined everybody.
I got so much questions too. I wanted them to.
I wanted them to be. I wanted to hold them

(00:20):
accountable. Clarify yourself.
Wayne, why you said? This.
That's all good. I, I, I dragged him through a
nine. What's an aspect of intelligent
work that you believe that is misrepresented in movies or by
the media? Of.
Intelligence. Work.
That's easy. Go ahead.
That's it. The the, the, the
misrepresentation is that if youtell people that you're in

(00:44):
intelligence work or that you are in the intelligence
community, everyone assumes thatyou're a spy.
That's not true. Community.
Nice. Matter of fact, when I was
working as a contractor a few years ago and one of my fellow
instructors saw my name and he asked me, says Doctor Lockwood.

(01:06):
Are you the Lockwood of Lamb? Are you the Lockwood of Lamp
theme? Got that right?
I said, yes, I'm, I'm, I'm Lockwood, who invented lamp.
Wow. And so, yes, that that has given
me a, well, arguably A worldwidereputation saying this.
So it's it's it's a fascinating thing.

(01:27):
Yeah. And our viewers, our viewers
need to remember one thing. Whenever you are looking at
various sources, no matter wherethe source is, always consider
the source. What are they saying and why are
they saying it? What part of the political
spectrum are are they representing?
And you have to take it from there.

(01:49):
And always remember also that the this is constant
information, stream of information would just never
finalize. You don't really realize the
full truth. So while welcome back to

(02:38):
Rumbling Facts podcast where critical thinking meets
uncomfortable truth, for real fucking growth, people, this is
your number one destination for challenging the status quo,
exposing the untold and level, leveling up your mindset.
I'm your host, DJ Rhett Sam, a rapper with over 220,000 streams
in the past year. It's fucking amazing.
So if it's the music that got you here or it's the podcast,

(03:01):
subscribe people, because this is all about transformation,
real, raw and revolutionary. And this podcast is not about
the fucking comfortable. It's about the thinkers, the
seekers, whether it's the music or the podcast, it all comes
down to growing altogether and having an amazing journey.
And before I get into this amazing conversation today, I

(03:21):
wanna say there are people in this life that serve quietly,
think critically, and shape the the world without needing a
fucking applause. To me, those are some of the
biggest fucking heroes in this life.
And today we're honored to sit down with one of them.
Jonathan that Lockwood is a retired U.S.
Army intelligence Colonel with decades of frontline experience

(03:44):
in national security, strategic intelligence, and Russian
affairs. He also he's also a former GS15
at the Department of Homeland Security where he played a key
role in shaping the US policy, intelligence analyst and globe
threat response. He holds a PhD and MBA in

(04:04):
International Affairs focused onRussia and Master in Strategic
Intelligence and degrees in history and psychology.
This isn't someone who just studied the game.
He's helped write the fucking playbook people.
He's also an author of groundbreaking works like The
Russian View of USA Energy and the Lockwood Analytic Method for

(04:26):
Prediction called LAMP, both available on Amazon.
People, this episode is a more than a conversation.
It's a rare insight into a worldof intelligence, geopolitics,
and strategic thinking. Welcome to the show, Jonathan
Lockwood, how you doing? Do it just fine, you know?
You know, after an introduction like that, I can hardly wait to
hear what I'm going to say. Often guesses say say something

(04:51):
like that though, but like God damn, OK, you didn't just do a
little intro. So I appreciate that.
And is there something that inspired you to pursue a career
or national security and intelligence?
Wow. OK, now in order to go in order
to get the full train, sort of like I'll give you the Readers
Digest version somewhere. So I'm completely because

(05:12):
otherwise, you know, I have Asperger's syndrome.
Truth, truth into it. I didn't discover that until I
was done officially diagnosed a couple of years ago.
And what Asperger because I'm onthe spectrum like people like
Elon Musk and Greta Thornberg. But Asperger's, I must have it
manifests itself differently in different people depending on
where they are on the spectrum. OK.

(05:34):
Now, in my particular case, it gives me, what it does is it
gives me a high, very high IQ, aquirky personality.
And I tend to very, very hyper focused.
My wife is used to that. You know, she knows how to
compensate. She's arguably more intelligent
than I am and higher IQ if you're racist reader, she has

(05:56):
read nearly 70,000 books by her estimate in a lifetime.
And she can speed read. And so she's kind of like my my
hidden resource. So we sort of like we're like 21
friend of ours is said we're like 2 swords sharpening each
other. So we have some fascinating
conversations for sure. But in any case, the my interest

(06:20):
in started off when I was about oh let's say 13 friend of mine
down the street invited me over to his house to play a war game
that he had purchased called theBattle of the Bulge I produced
by the Avalon Hill Game Company in 90s in 1968.
I was fascinated by the game andthen started getting he had

(06:44):
other games we so I began purchasing and playing more
games and studying military history behind the games.
OK, yeah. It broadened out into study of
military history and history in general.
And then I became because of thethe war gaming aspect, I became
interested in the intelligence aspects.
How do you tell what the other side is going to do?

(07:06):
And so I began, I began developing an interest in
becoming an intelligence officerin in high school, and that's
incredible. Normally in high school, nobody
knows what we're gonna do. Wow.
I was my one of my high school classmates at my 10 year reunion
said that I was I was voted the least changed, which is

(07:28):
considered a big honor in my high school.
Least changed because she said that I was the only one who knew
what I wanted to be become and went ahead and did it.
Wow. And it just had that kind of
focus. And seems like you were a,
you're addicted to knowledge as well right there, because when

(07:51):
you were a kid, you're playing this game and you're like,
there's so much more to learn about this there.
And you wanted more and more. And I realized when I was young
and knowledge is such a drug to the highest degree because I
after you learned something and you know the truth of something,
man, that the adrenaline of knowing truth there and
knowledge is incredible. And you were very curious when

(08:12):
you were a kid to really exploreit right away.
And you were like, OK, this is it.
Wow, You have a very good You have a very good grasp of my
background in that my parents, you know, they knew that I was
different, but they accepted me exactly the way I was.
They didn't try to stamp me intoa mold.
They let. Me give you a pill?

(08:33):
Right. They didn't, they didn't drug
me. They didn't try to try to force
me into an immoral. They gave me, I had all sorts of
books. And you know, when I, when I had
recovered, I was had recovered from pneumonia, which I'd had
for six weeks when I was about 7.

(08:53):
And my mother, after I met managed to recover, She asked me
what I wanted Santa Claus to bring me for Christmas.
And I was at watch this one cartoon where I saw, you know,
this cartoon where the characters have bought a
chemistry set show that showed how the chemistry set was.
And so I I said a chemistry set.My parents I I didn't realize

(09:15):
that I had a blank check for Christmas he would have gotten
anything I asked for so they gotme a chemistry set wow and other
things and just to help anythingthat would develop my mind and
they moved to read and study andmy teachers were the same way.
I went to a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church school.
It still exists it's in St. Petersburg, FL Grace Lutheran

(09:38):
Church and the teachers there again they they realized that I
was different and they get rewarded me with more difficult
problems that they think they just it was just amazing.
I learned to love school. I I could not imagine not being

(09:59):
in school. Same here.
Same. Here.
So from starting at the age of three, I was in school, went
through and eventually in high school, I wanted, I wanted to
become an Army intelligence officer and I wanted to go to
West Point. And so I got that.
I got plenty more. I got, I got it.

(10:20):
I had two things actually had a four year Army ROTC scholarship
and I had an appointment to WestPoint.
So I chose West Point. So that then I discovered to my,
to my shock, I thought I was allprepared, but I had a oh, I, I
had, I had, I had all the advanced knowledge and stuff and

(10:41):
had thought I was all set. But what was interesting is
because of my I did not realize the again, I did not realize
that I had Edinburgh syndrome that produces a non conformist
personality. West Point hates non conformists
that it's so and I did not realize.

(11:03):
What society in general? And society, society they.
Just want you to be a pawn. So right when you're, you're
different for sure. Exactly, and I've encountered
that at that pattern my entire life.
For the same here because I'm always CD so and I didn't
realize it till I'm 30 so that'sonly five years ago so all my
life was just confused why it was different.

(11:24):
Exactly. No, I'm not quite OCD.
I have the my Voice teacher in Germany told me that I had an
almost inhuman ability to focus.So, you know, switch as well.
I was able to do solos and things like that without that
much. Tunnel vision on.
Something. Yeah, I just playing solo

(11:45):
basically. Only it was only I existed.
The song God existed, yeah. And so it didn't matter who was
in front of me, I just focused on that.
So yeah, again, it produces, it can produce a very quirky, hyper
focused personality. And my best friends are used to

(12:06):
that and they accept me for it. And the rest of the world, well,
they just. They were surprised.
Here I am. I I really find it incredible
what your your parents did like a saw that you were like in
search of knowledge and search of of more and.
They just kept feeding. That yeah, they fed you and my

(12:26):
mom did the same. She didn't know why I was
different, but she the the subscription that we were poor
and the subscription my mom got is that the school bus club.
So every month you would get like a book, but with the test
and like a test that you could do on your own and analyze stuff
and like you're doing experience.
So you're learning so much, not just like the fucking cartoon or

(12:48):
sexualized today on television. Like I was really fucking
learning and she was seeing thatinstead of me going outside
doing stupid shit, I was just focused and and knowledge and
apparent needs to do that. Needs to see what their child
needs and feeds them that for them to grow.
Your mom had a good approach. Can't argue with that.

(13:09):
So what's so anyway, when I was there at West Point for about 16
months, it became apparent to methat I could not, you know,
really go the West Point way to conform to what they wanted.
So I resigned, went to University of Tampa, where I, it
was local, where I lived. And there I met my Russian

(13:33):
history professor, Doctor Stevens Peroneus, who set the
pattern for my career. And he, he, he saw what I could,
what I was and what I could become.
And he told me that, Jonathan, if you are going to go into the
US Army as an intelligence officer, being who you are, you
need an equalizer. You need something that will

(13:53):
back people off and so he recommended that I take an
educational delay from active service to go down to the
University of Miami and I had that I had the grades I had the
I was able to get awarded a tuition fellowship for my
masters degree. You know where your resume say
come here and your masters degrees on us and then then

(14:15):
they. Would those are kind of
expensive if you're paying your own for sure, because people are
in debt for 10 years sometimes just to pay that.
Back right, because I was able to with fellowships and work
study, I was able to and one at one time assist from my parents
on room and board for my first year.
And I I chose the fourteen meal plan rather than 20 meal plan

(14:39):
because I figure OK, I can get by on 14 meals.
Yeah, I'll tough it out, you know.
Might be able to do. Whatever you like.
Come on. Yeah, that's so.
Anyway, we had so I went down touniversity in Miami and he said
what you do is you to take an education delay.
You delay until you complete your PhD, get your masters, then

(15:02):
go into your PhD program, then complete that, then come on
active duty. And he says you will have a
credential that no one else can match.
Wow. Little or no one else can.
Well, be hard time for them to equal it.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
So what happened was I did that.I went down, folks, stayed
focused on it, got my masters degree in one year, delayed

(15:24):
another two years, completed my PhD in May of 1980.
Several months later, I came on active duty as a 24 year old
first Lieutenant with a PhD in international affairs,
concentration, Soviet area studies.
And they told me that not only was I the only Lieutenant in the
Army for the. People overqualified right there
for. You.

(15:46):
Packed up in a ball. I was the only Lieutenant with a
pH D, That's it. And they said, and I was the
only Lieutenant in the armed forces of the United States with
a PhD at that time. Wow.
And the big advantage of that isnobody ever called me a dumb
Lieutenant. For sure not.
So is that that's before your U.S.

(16:06):
Military Academy or that is? It that was after left Academy
like it went through, got my Commission through ROTC, took an
educational delay and basically I got promoted to 1st Lieutenant
while in the individual ready reserve.
Then they brought me on active duty as a first Lieutenant,
which was an interesting experience.

(16:28):
So another fact what I'll tell you one amusing experience when
they when I first was, they assigned me to Fort Huachuca, AZ
U.S. Army Intelligence Centre and
school. I had asked for three overseas
areas. They and I asked the assignments
officer, well, why did you put me here?
She said, well, we saw that you had a PhD and we wanted to get

(16:48):
immediate use out of your PhD and said, OK, that's fine.
And I was in director of combat developments.
They're equivalent of a think tank.
And my, my Raider and the Sergeant major came up to me one
day and said, Lieutenant Lockwood, we'd like to go you to
go over and visit Mark Falk overin training and doctrine.
You'll like Mark. He's a brilliant young man.

(17:11):
And my response was, well, it's nice to know and, you know, I
have something in common. Oh, they did not know how to
take that. Most people want the truth but
can't handle. The truth?
They didn't want to handle that.No, I've, I've had, I've had
many experiences like that during my career.

(17:31):
When you can you describe us your one of your first
experience as an intelligence officer and how was that initial
first experience with that, withthat credential, how how was it
like? Well-being.
A Lieutenant with a PhD on my Amazon.

(17:51):
You see, one of the one of fascinating things.
I never had to tell anyone that I I never had to say, oh, my
name's Lieutenant Lockwood or Captain Lockwood, and I have PhD
and everybody knew. Yeah.
I mean, it's like having this invisible force field of
intimidation surrounding me wherever I went.

(18:13):
There he is. He might use his appearance.
Knowledge against us. Yeah, so, but but it wasn't him.
Apparently. Number of people found me
intimidating in in the Paradoxically, they found me
intimidating because I did not go out of my way to hit people
over the head. With it, yeah.

(18:33):
No, I just, I just, I was very quiet, you know, Very.
Because you know your expertise going to talk for itself.
So yeah, exactly the results would speak for themselves and I
very was very calm whenever I breathed.
I did not, you know, try to hit people over the head with, with,
with $5 words. Explained it very simply.

(18:55):
And so, but so I got went through that.
I got I, they then the assignments officer told me,
well, Captain Lockwood, you needa tactical assignment.
And I said, fine, send me to Germany, make me a brigade S2
Bradens brigade level intelligence officer.
I figure I might as well roll the dice because that's a major

(19:16):
position and I was a captain. So on the show that I could
perform at the majors level and so I went to 10th Air Defence
Artillery Brigade, Combination Hawk and Patriot.
OK. Now, and you know, I was in the
the first brigade, the first brigade that introduced the
Patriot system into the US Army.That was an interesting, if very

(19:36):
interesting experience. I gained a lot of insight from
that. So I did that, then wound up
transferring down to Heidelberg,Germany, U.S.
Army, the deputy Chief of staff intelligence, where I did have
during that period, I had some classified efficiency reports
which I obviously will not discuss on this program and they

(19:58):
will not be, they will not be declassified until after my
death, so. Than how it works.
A facet to say I am very proud of what I did.
Yeah, I did. I did my part in the, in the, in
the Cold War. And so Internet, that's also

(20:19):
where I met my wife, Kathleen. When I met her, she was working
in Headquarters U.S. Army Europe as the deputy chief
military historian for Headquarters U.S.
Army Europe. And we met and, you know, we, we
discovered that we had had a lotin common.
And eventually, you know, we, wegot married in January of 1989

(20:43):
and so and we've been happily married ever since.
Matter of fact, my wife Kathleensays that yeah, that you and I
are not everyone's cup of tea, but we are very well suited to
each other. Yeah, you're not everybody's cup
of tea, but at least you're in the same cup of tea.
You know something? And how do you think that your

(21:05):
background and hit and history and psychology influenced your
work as an intelligence and national?
Security. OHK OK interesting you can't go
now. Keep in mind, my baccalaureate,
my bachelors were history and psychology.
I went down to University of Miami.
I was talking to my future dissertation professor, Doctor

(21:26):
Leon Gray. He and I was weird.
I was going to be in his Soviet foreign policy graduate class,
and I was looking at the list ofterm paper topics.
And I looked at this one topic said the evolution of the Soviet
view of US strategic doctrine and its implications.

(21:49):
And I said, Doctor Gray, this isthis looks like a fascinating
term paper topic. And he said it would make an
even better PhD dissertation. No one has ever done it there.
There's the why it hasn't. Nobody done it yet, do you
think? Well, no one ever did it at the
time because, well, 2 won't. People didn't think it was an

(22:14):
important. OK, Yeah.
They just simply there's a there's a there's a little verse
from by the poet Scottish poet Robert Burns goes like this.
Oh would some power the gifty Gaius to see ourselves as others
see us to it from many a blunderfree us and foolish notion.

(22:35):
Robert Burns made a very good point.
And in this case, the idea of studying how our opponents see
us is potentially very enlightening because you can
correct you how what conclusionsdo the Russians draw about our
strategy? Exactly what and how does that

(22:55):
affect? How would it affect their
foreign policy? So I sat out doing I oriented my
term papers to various chapters and what would be my
dissertation. I managed to complete a third.
Essentially, I managed to complete a third of my
dissertation before even entering on the dissertation
period. Research itself third if it was
done so that shortened might shorten my focus I had and I was

(23:19):
able to do that and eventually once I got it completed and
graduated my professor sent it off to a publishing company my
my dissertation. He said, well, you said there's
a book here struggling to get out so they gave me suggestions
on how to recraft it. So that became the Soviet view
of US strategic doctrine. My first book published in 1983.

(23:44):
Eventually it would become with yeah, my helping my wife
Kathleen, who co-authored the second edition, the Russian view
of US strategy, its past, its future.
That was published in 1993. The predictions that we made in
that book are coming true today.So that's what, even though it
was published in 1993, if you, our viewers, if you, if they buy

(24:08):
that book and they read it, whatit will do is it will even
though Vladimir Putin is not mentioned in that book, it tells
you why Vladimir Putin thinks the way he does and how it
affects. And it also gives important
clues as to what is the most effective strategy to stop him.
Hmm. And again, that is that is

(24:29):
something that viewers can discover for themselves and
worse. And again, in assuming we do
subsequent discussions, we can go into down that little rabbit
hole and check that out. But then so that I published my
second book after that that the Russian view US strategy after I

(24:51):
got caught up in I became the denounced to me.
I became the peace dividend, oneof the peace dividends in the
drawdown of the reduction in force following the end of the
Cold War. And there were we, there was a
reduction in force board for my year group where it turned out

(25:13):
244 majors or eventually cut from active duty, you know, just
no separation pay, no retirement.
Wow. I got caught up in that.
And fortunately I was able to adjust because my senior rater
wanted me to become a faculty member on him at the Joint
Military Intelligence College, which is now the National

(25:35):
Intelligence University. I became a reserve faculty
member and was able to continue my Army career as a reserve
officer and build towards eventually gaining a 30 year
qualifying for a 30 year retirement as a Colonel because
I advanced from major to Lieutenant Colonel to Colonel in
the reserves as a college professor in uniform.

(25:59):
That's, that's, that's what I was.
And so that worked out very well.
And at the same time I was able to while I was not on active
duty. Eventually I was able to work my
way into several jobs and eventually became the Director
of Training at the in the Officeof Intelligence and Analysis at

(26:21):
the Department of Homeland Security.
That will end from 2005 to 2017.I had and I got in as a GS15 at
the at the top there because that's where required and
eventually advanced GS 15 Step 10, which is the maximum you can
go before going to the Senior Executive Service.

(26:42):
That's 15. Step 10 had that and looking at
the FIT regulations, the regulations allowed me by paying
back some of my salary to the federal government, they allowed
me to buy back my active duty service about 14 years worth and
apply those 14 years to my civilservice retirement like.

(27:04):
Wow, that's awesome. So it made it.
So what happened was I had a, I ended up now with a 30 year Army
retirement and a 25 year DHS retirement.
I would normally have normally you'd have to sort 55 years in
order to do that. I overlapped and I was able to
take advantage of that formula to have some.

(27:25):
Now I have the two retirement pensions now, plus also Social
Security. So who we're in this position
right? Right now, where this where I
work because I want to, not because I absolutely have to.
I don't have to be enough say, oh God, get a job.
Gotta get a job. Gotta go flip burgers or
whatever. I find it really awesome that

(27:46):
you manage at least to get something for your retirement
and stuff like that because I'vetalked to other people that were
in the Army or DSS secret agent.Now, I had a diplomatic, a
secret agent, and when he becamehandicapped because of the job,
they they cut him totally. Like he has a quarter of the

(28:09):
income and he's just trying to just sell a book just to fucking
eat there. And he talked on a podcast that
often a lot of people that are in the Army or law enforcement,
the reason they're not gonna mention they have problems is
because they're gonna cut you right away without no pay at the
end. And that's what happened to him.
And he talks about like think about suicide multiple times

(28:32):
because he knows that that's that's the solution for his wife
and kids to be good forever. And that's how deep but like
you, you go because you fight for your country to, to defend
people and for people to have their fucking freedom and
Instagram and all this shit. And literally a we, we treat
them like crap, like if they didn't put their lives at risk

(28:53):
for us. And that is a fucking disgusting
every everybody that defended their country and fucking
applied these laws there for people or should be good for
life. Not homeless here it happens
too. We have a lot of homeless people
that were army vets like we're not taking care of people that
gave us our freedom. For me is disgusting.
These people should be all good for life.

(29:14):
I don't get it. But so I I find it really
amazing that you you managed to get it.
And again, the one of the one ofthe things I've always kept in
mind throughout my entire life as a Christian is that to
remember that God is always in control.
Yeah, got it. And they have always I've always
believed that he had a plan as aplan for my life and has and he

(29:39):
that. And The thing is, you will
discuss, you discover is a Christian, that when you become
a Christian that God will take you through some very amazing
paths. Helen back.
Yeah, you. You, As Winston Churchill finds
once said, if you find yourself going through hell, keep going.
I've never heard that one, I like it.

(30:00):
That is a good shit. You find yourself going through
hell. Keep going.
And but the, the interesting thing here is that I always
trust that God will reveal to mepaths that I need to consider.
Like for example, this podcast, yeah, just a few weeks ago.
I've had I've for three years, I've had the podcast on the

(30:23):
Ukraine show and with and, and my producers are trying to for,
you know, and advertise me with,you know, other larger venues,
which could happen. And I said I just be patient and
the meantime because I have the the foundation because I've
trusted and planned ahead for itand took advantage of the

(30:45):
opportunities when I recognized them then now I'm in a position
where I can wait for a suitable opportunity.
Well, let's say for a full time job or full time or.
Now and choose yeah, I can exactly.
And that is power. If I.
Yeah, I don't have, I don't haveto panic exactly.
I can pay the bills and just do,do this thing and just keep,

(31:09):
keep moving and merrily along. And, of course, the 11 of the
main promises that I kept to my wife when we got married because
she was such a voracious reader.I told you.
Yeah. And she I promised her that she
would never have to put a budgetor a limitation on the number of
books she could buy. And believe me, we, we she can

(31:31):
read. She can speed read and read
voraciously. Thank God for the invention of
ebooks. Our house would be wall to wall.
Books. Yeah, for sure.
For sure. But in any case, because she's
had this opportunity, she keeps voraciously reading and studying
and and seeing relationships andshe talked with me about them.

(31:53):
And again, we we keep your feeding and reinforcing.
She's not missing a subject to talk about.
Most girls in life have nothing to say so I that is amazing for
sure. She's just like she can't go on
anything. I'm.
Not I love it. I'm not going to go that far.
The the everyone has something interesting to say if you're

(32:17):
willing to wait. Longer.
And the, But the fascinating thing is that because I've had
virtually a crew. Well, you could say, you could,
could say in a sense that my intelligence career started back
as the the the foundations of itstarted back when I was 13.
I first began developing military history, war gaming.

(32:39):
And that sort of evolved and I acquired more skills.
And the double major in history and psychology, psychology was
part yeah, I want to know how the other side thinks.
But psychology was also an effort to gain insight into
myself because they yeah, I I was a mystery to myself for a

(32:59):
great deal of my life, for sure.And that it.
But now that I'm not quite so much a mystery, I have more
insight and it gives me a betterability to deal with new
situations. And so it's a it's a it's a it's
a fascinating, it's a fascinating profession.
The intelligence profession is and I hope, yeah.

(33:21):
And in as we branch out into various other subjects, yeah,
hopefully in in future podcasts and so forth, we can go into
this, but it get it to give yourviewers never give up.
That's that's a never, never give up and say it's all over.
No, no, no. Yeah, I I thought that when I

(33:43):
got caught in that reduction in force and I had to leave active
duty, I don't mind telling you it was April 30th, 1993.
I was prepared to transition andall this stuff, but I didn't
have a job. And I remember I was in my the
my Home Office in another house and I remember that I was crying

(34:04):
and I don't in my head I don't. And I was praying too.
And I said, Lord, I know it saysin the Bible that all things
work together for good to them that love God, who are called
according to his purpose. Please forgive me if I do not
understand how you intend to bring good out of this.
Out of my situation. Right now with this situation,

(34:26):
yeah. And of course, then God
proceeded to show me the idea. So so you so are your listeners
need to trust God. Be patient and and God will show
you the path that that is the the main, the main, shall we say
we're almost at Easter. That's the main.
Wouldn't mean Easter eggs. I remember when I was at one of

(34:51):
my lowest points and of with addiction of cocaine 10 years
ago, like answer certain point there I was like telling myself
like, OK, well, farewell. Like this is how I'm gonna go
out like that. There's no, there's no light at
the end of this fucking tunnel. And I was just, I, I never see

(35:12):
the light. And I was asking a fucking God
like, like, why am I going through this?
Like like most people that were 25 there were all chill, why am
I fighting these fucking demons?Like do I deserve this shit and
everything? And after you become sober two
years later and you, you fight back to recover all the damage
you did to yourself and AA monetarily.

(35:34):
And then you start realizing thelesson that was taught during
that time. The man I valued a dollar now to
the highest degree. I value life to the highest
degree now. Me just breathing the air
outside is so valuable now that before I, I didn't, I took it
for granted. And money, when, when you're in
that kind of world, all you justspend it as fast as you get it.

(35:57):
And now like, I know what a dollar is like.
I'm not just gonna waste it. So there's a lot of learning in
the darkest times that we can have.
It's just that, that moment we never feel that there is.
But when you get to the endpoint, you're like, oh shit,
that's what I learned. That's what built in me.
And you're always normally a better person or more built on

(36:18):
the way out. And the neat thing about that is
that many of the lessons that God wants to teach you, you only
learn the lessons when you look back.
Yeah, exactly. Through the experience, then you
realize, oh, that's why I didn'tget this or that's why God
wanted me to go down this path. And that's, that's the, that's

(36:41):
the main thing you have to keep in mind.
It's, it's impossible for us to see the big picture because
we're finite. We're human and that is one of
the things that that I've learned throughout my life is
to, you know, being patient, youknow, learning to learning to
wait on what many times I don't see a situation developing the

(37:01):
way I would like. My wife reminds me constantly to
be patient, you know, because I said, you know, there are there
are lessons we have to learn. And now I'm in this position
where I can look back on my lifeand all the major events and see
and understand better why they happened the way they did,
because it was for my own good. I just didn't realize it at the

(37:23):
time. So that's a yeah.
And this is a, you know, this this is the now, given the
current situation that we're in and we're we're looking at the
world's OK, this is really exciting.
Yeah. Especially when you like look at
the, for example, President Trump.

(37:43):
Yeah, this with his tariff strategy at first, you know the
your first impulse is to hit thepanic button and say, OK, this
is the end of the world. No, when you when you do the
research and you do critical thinking exactly when you look
at the various from you look at various sources that explain why
he is doing what he is doing andyou look at the complete

(38:06):
context, then you discover. How much it makes sense?
Now it starts to it's making sense.
Now, you also understand that President Trump, what he is
doing right now with the tariffsand simultaneously cutting taxes
and simultaneously trying to cutspending, that combination has
never been done. Exactly.
It's always One Direction, yeah.Right.

(38:27):
It's always some some other aspect, but he's trying to do
all these things at once, which is very complex strategy.
It requires a lot of constant attention.
You have to add some and not andno small amount of risk and
because he's got. The backlash of it.
He's got, he's got, he's got oneshot to do.
This. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.

(38:48):
Because like on television in Canada, because they're there
and Oh my God, it's ridiculous. Like earlier kids the the
politician of Canada, like ohe yeah, you wanna put tariffs on
us, we're gonna put tariffs on the, on the syrup and shit.
And I'm like, you guys are fucking morons.
It's like, do you know how much things we import compared to

(39:08):
them? It's a we're we're gonna get
drowned if we play that game. But that's what they're doing
right now. Like babies.
And, and it's it's so fake because my host tomorrow on the
Ukraine show is based in Canada and the Co, the other Co host,
Yvonne Kirichenko, he's based inKiev, Ukraine.
So is this the three of us tomorrow?
You know, they're talking about this and my host, you know,

(39:30):
usually goes after me talking about Ohi Trump this and Trump
that. And that's.
The brainwash of Canadian media.It's it's incredible.
Yeah, and some sometimes. Sometimes I tease him with us as
well. Are you looking forward to being
a vassal and the mighty Trump Empire?
What's incredible that I realizethat by doing research in media

(39:52):
and the brainwash and all this shit.
Well, when you look at that American television for news
there, well, it's really dividedinto you got the left and the
right and there's a way less channels of the right.
But when you look in Canada, there's no left or right, OK,
what we do on our side is fucking ridiculous.
We just take what the left says in the US, nothing of the right.

(40:13):
And we just said that is the 100% what's going on in the US.
And so they take the. For me is the brainwash side and
I literally that's what they feed to the Canadian.
So every Canadian that I meet that didn't do their own
research Hate Trump's, hate Trump.
Don't know why, don't know they can't say a phrase, he he said.

(40:34):
Yeah, interestingly enough, Fox,Fox News comes the closest to
being balanced. Now they have they're very pro
Trump, but they also invite on their program.
They have Democratic speakers. And so you get more of A and
these people are at least civil in their conversation.

(40:54):
They don't engage in shouting matches.
They don't attack the personal person.
They don't there's no, there's no ad hominem exactly the fact
the person type of argument. So you get, I use that and I use
other sources to try and give myself a very balanced picture.
And I look occasionally at the far left just simply to see, OK,
what are they saying? And then critically examine it

(41:16):
says, are they really? Why are they saying this?
So it's, it's a, it's a fascinating thing.
Yeah. And our viewers, our viewers
need to remember one thing. Whenever you are looking at
various sources, no matter wherethe source is, always consider
the source. What are they saying and why are
they saying it? What part of the political

(41:38):
spectrum are they representing? And you have to take it from
there and always remember also that the this is constant
information stream of information would just never
finalized. You don't really realize the
full truth until like you're you're walking life until the
rhetoric. You look back at it in
retrospect, see why they are saying these things.

(42:01):
Absolutely. No, it is a.
And so anyway, right now I am, you know, continuing, continuing
my research and development and so forth.
And of course, at some point in the future we'll be able to
discuss the so-called Golden Dome project.
Yeah. And that is a fascinating thing

(42:23):
right there. Yeah.
Which the objectives of what President Trump wants and how
the Russians would see it. And I can tell you some
interesting things you would be able to our readers, if they
look at, if they again read the Russian view of the US strategy,
they'll be able to understand what they'll be able to predict

(42:44):
what the Russian attitude towards Golden Dome would be.
And with without that, because there was a former period where
the how the Russians reacted to the strategic defence initiative
of Ronald Reagan's SDI. SDI, otherwise known as Star
Wars. But the Russians were terrified

(43:06):
of SDI because it threatened to neutralize their nuclear missile
arsenal in their belief. And that is probably one of the
one of the unspoken truths in this whole dialogue about
nuclear missiles. And sort of the one thing that
the Russian military and political leadership fear more

(43:29):
than anything else is they fear,even though they don't want to
directly admit it. Yeah, if they fear the potential
of American technology to neutralize the one thing that
makes Russia a great power nuclear missile arsenal.
Because right when you saw that like there's you can't do much
because they have down their site so.

(43:49):
You're fucked. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's like a checkmate for
them that well, right. If you implement that well,
they're gonna feel against the wall.
If if we neutralize their nuclear missile arsenals, they
have nothing. As a matter of fact, Boris,
former President, Russian President Boris Yeltsin, back in
1994, in a speech to the RussianDuma, made a statement which to

(44:12):
me kind of gives the whole game away, He said.
The only reason Russia is considered a great power is
because its armed forces have nuclear weapons.
Now that project, so and, and Putin, although not quite being
that forthright about it, he hasbeen trying to brandish his
nuclear missile arsenal in a wayhe's trying to intimidate the

(44:34):
West and because to them, to Russia, nuclear missiles are
their only real great power currency.
If they don't have nuclear weapons, they have nothing.
They can't coerce or threaten the United States with anything.
Yeah, that's it. Right.
But that be but now, so now justbased on what I just said there,

(44:58):
you can imagine what the Russianreaction privately is going to
be to the so-called Golden Dome.The golden Dome would be like a
Dome that would be over the the states to protect.
It well what well, here's here'shere's the here's where the
misunderstanding can come in andI'll go ahead and again give you
the all the Readers Digest version.

(45:18):
But the now the Iron Dome, it's intended to be somehow a larger
version or a more effective version of Israel's Iron Dome.
Their Iron Dome is very effective at blocking short
range and intermediate range ballistic missiles, mainly from
Iran or other, you know, Arab nations, but it's very

(45:39):
effective. The Golden Dome is intended is
dependent with the United Statesversion which is supposed to be
able to block all nuclear missiles.
The only problem with that is isthat, and people in Congress
recognize this, that the Golden Dome has to be able to walk
intercontinental ballistic missiles coming over the North

(46:02):
Pole, Russia or China. Would be, would it be a solid
Dome like physical or OK, yeah, yeah, like.
A. Energy Dome like nothing.
Not even that. OK, what?
What the golden Dome? It's more of a metaphor.
It's a physical construct, A golden Dome in effect you would

(46:26):
have because talk about there's only one there.
There are two ways to block intercontinental ballistic
missiles. OK.
And we there only one is being publicly discussed.
The other one, which I'll talk about on a future program, is
something no one is thinking about, but I have been thinking

(46:48):
about it and we'll save that, that little Easter egg for a
future program. I played video games and I'm
telling myself that there's two ways as well.
I would think that there's the scrambler.
Scrambler literally because it'sa homing missile.
It's a missile that knows where it goes.
Well, when it gets close to that, well, the scrambler just
it continues in a straight line.And the thing I would be

(47:10):
thinking is a EMP literally to stop its electronics and make it
drop. That's what I'm thinking and me,
I have no knowledge. No, no, that's a fair fresh out.
A lot of people in Congress are thinking the same thing and
they're, but they've also allocated $900 million in this
Golden Dome bill, part of it $900 million due to a space

(47:33):
based interceptor study. OK.
I can save him $900 million right there, OK.
But with my proposed solution. Just give me a percent of it.
Give me a little cut. Yeah, make that.
But anyway, the but right now they talk about space based

(47:54):
interceptors, which essentially are satellites that would be
armed with lasers that would shoot down nuclear missiles in
their boost phase while they're on their way up.
That's the most effective way you stop.
Stopping for it, alright. Yeah, you, you before it can get
to deploying its decoys or maneuvering or anything else
like that, you want to shoot thenuclear missile,

(48:17):
intercontinental missile. Before it can deploy its decoys
or maneuver while it's on its way up, it is at its most
vulnerable. And so people have got this
general idea in their back in their minds of having a space
based interceptor system. The problem with that is, and I
discovered this through my participation in a war game back
in 1997 and when we did a simulated war in 2020 is is when

(48:42):
you have US satellites in orbit and you've also got Russian and
Chinese counter space satellitesin orbit.
Guess what you've got? You've got a Mexican standoff in
low Earth orbit in which the side that fires first is going

(49:02):
to be have a big advantage. Unfortunately that's, that's a
hair trigger situation that's highly unstable.
And the people who are who are proposing this space based
interceptor study do not realizethat yet.
And when you do. But there is another unspoken
strategy which I have been working on for a couple of years

(49:26):
at least that I've incorporated into one of my briefings, which
is unclassified, strangely enough, because yeah, it's, it's
my idea. There's nothing classified about
my idea, but nobody's thinking about it.
So that is what one of the things that I am pursuing so
that when I get to the head and in front of the proper audience,

(49:49):
preferably someone who can do something.
About. Yeah, exactly.
My idea, yeah. And say, OK, this is what you
do. And so this is the sort of thing
that I'm looking at. And right now I am patiently
waiting for the right opportunity and the right
audience to be able to tell them, OK, this is what you need
to do. And right, of course, in the

(50:12):
right now is not a good time forme to be advancing this sort of
idea because the here, because there's all this volatile, you
know, all the, all the smoke andfire and flame and whatever
about what's going on right now.They're trying to decide whether
if the terrorists are going to work, if they cut technique.

(50:34):
There's a lot of political, political theatre going on right
now, which is tending to obscurethe rest of this discussion.
But yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a very
good, it's a very good metaphor for the Trump administration.
And he wants to he's doing a lotof big decisive things.

(50:55):
And that's why at the plurality I made your Polaroid plurality
of the American people still support him and are willing to
look past all of this hystericalnonsense about Oh my God, he's
going to wreck the global economy pub.
For sure, but like a Gutfield said on on Fox, like.

(51:15):
Gutfield. Yeah, he's like there's some
good and, and, and there's some give and take about everybody
people. And he's like, do I agree with
everything Trump says? The fuck not.
But is he the most wrapped up like best president we got?
God damn right. So like it's OK to go to a
restaurant and not like everything in it and you can

(51:37):
just go and take what you want. And that's what you should do
with Trump because we're not gonna have a better package from
now on. So let's deal with what we have.
A lot of people are just see a like a grab her by the pussy and
stuff like that and they're literally anti or right when he
talks about the wall. They're like, oh, he's racist
When when fucking welfare for black people.

(51:58):
He's been the lowest in 45 yearsbecause of him, but Oh yeah,
he's racist. So, well, one of the things that
I've said on the on my other, onthe Other Ukraine show program
is that if you don't like what President Trump is saying, just
wait 10 minutes. Exactly.
Something's going to go come out, Yeah.
And you know, it was like when the Stephen Colbert had on the

(52:24):
one of his, his guests, they were talking about the Space
Force during Trump's first term.And, and Stephen Colbert was
being very critical of the SpaceForce idea.
And his guest said, no. Well, just because President
Trump, just because President Trump says something, that
doesn't make it a bad idea. Something's happening both in in

(52:46):
space and in politics right now,if you don't mind touching on
that. The Space Force, yeah, that
Donald Trump is very excited about.
He announced that Space Force people make fun of it.
I among them. Yeah, I, I like space
exploration. I'm, I'm excited about us
conquering space scientifically and through knowledge.

(53:07):
Why do we need the Space Force? What don't we understand about
it? Cause you say you're on board.
Well, I just just because it came out of Trump's mouth
doesn't require that it then be a crazy thing.
Just I'm just saying it don't. Help So.
But why do we need a Space Force?
Neil? OK.

(53:27):
I'm I don't have a horse in thatrace.
I can tell you that many people are thinking that we didn't have
a Space Force before, and now we're gonna have a space.
We have a space Force. It's called the United States
Space Command, and it is under the auspices of the Air Force.
Really. We already have a presence in
space. The Air Force launches
satellites, the F Force. The Air Force put GPS satellites

(53:48):
into orbit around the. Earth.
So, NASA. Didn't do that.
The Air Force did. That Air Force did it because it
was a military project. He argued for the thing, the
good things that a Space Force could do and very sensible, very
sensible discussion. And that's the that's the kind
of attitude that one should takewhenever President Trump makes a
pronouncement. You need to take a deep breath,

(54:10):
listen to what he said, then examine and look at what other
people have, a variety of other people who just accept one
source. You, your people, listeners
should look at a variety of listeners on all sides of the
political spectrum. And then that way, if you take
the time to look at these various things and then wait and
see how it develops, then you say, OK, now I'm starting to see

(54:34):
what's happening and you put yourself in a better position.
Oh, by the way, here here's another little thing, but to
help your listeners better understand what President Trump
is trying to This is kind of an easy one.
If you want a, if you, you want to have a really good idea of
the geopolitics of the geographyof what President Trump is up

(54:55):
to, as well as the other leadersof the world.
There's a book I would highly recommend by Tim Marshall
entitled prisoners of geography and maps that show you the
problems that each of many worldleaders face.
There's a whole chapter on the United States as a whole chapter
on Russia. And there's in there other, and

(55:16):
there's one on China and so various other sectors of the
world. And one once you read that book,
which I would recommend for every.
Put on the screen right now. Yeah, the Prisoners of
Geography, yeah, I highly recommend that book and it and
if they want a mechanism to helpthem under play through and

(55:37):
understand it. Well, if they're, if you're
listeners are familiar with the board game Risk, Risk, Yeah, OK,
yeah, go out and get a game of Risk and then you can play what
I call the Trump scenario here. Here's the here's the Trump
scenario. OK, you get, you get, you get.
OK, you know, there are 6 continents shown on the on the

(55:58):
world map. And in the Trump scenario, you
have six players. One of those players is the
Trump player. He has control of all of North
America, which was, you know, Central America, the whole all
of North America. And each of the other 5 has
control of one continent. So you've got six players each

(56:18):
controlling your continent, and the Trump player controls North
America. And the Trump player has the
first move. Then you play it out from there.
Because in Risk, yeah, you've got about 20 armies that you can
allocate and so forth. And that they represent various
types. They an abstract representation
of types of power that each player has.

(56:39):
And but you can, by playing thatkind of a scenario, you gain a
greater understanding of what President Trump is actually up
to. Well, I, I would have, I would
have thought of that. We need an intelligence officer
to think about that one still. Good.
No, no, no, no. Well, well, I think one other
political cartoonist thought something along those lines that

(57:03):
he hit It showed President Trumpplaying a game of Risk with the
rest of the. World, but I'm sure they played
it with the award play too, likea risk of having Trump
controlling, I'm sure at the same time of the year for sure
during it. During your time as an
intelligence officer, what was the most crucial piece of

(57:24):
information or event that influenced your career path?
Is there one in particular that stands out?
Hmm, as an intelligence while asan intelligence officer on
active duty, hmm influenced my career path well when I had to.

(57:44):
This is kind of tricky. The the piece of information
this this was during my period down in Heidelberg when I had
classified intelligence. Yeah, positions.
So I couldn't discuss what I did, but but because I did such

(58:04):
a good job there, you know, basically that saved my career
because I had previously had a bad boss that was trying to run
me out of the Army and I said no.
So I managed to escape from thatbad boss.
Wow, got me down to Heidelberg and that course, that's where I
met my wife. Great.
So that that worked out. But the jobs that I had in the

(58:28):
headquarters that were classified those.
Changed the game for you? Game for me in my career path
and enabled me certainly to get to major and so that by the time
I had to leave because of the reduction in force.
I had a very solid platform foundation to to where the joint

(58:50):
military intelligence college wanted me to join their faculty
because I had all the academic credentials including the in the
military ones. And that enabled me to to
complete my intelligence career and well to complete my military
intelligence career because I still had civilian intelligence
that I could go into in the Department of Homeland Security.

(59:11):
I was able to build on that. So those, so my combined
intelligence career, if you will, spans well the the portion
of if you include my parting Graduate School, which started
in 1977 because 1977 until now really until I until I retired

(59:31):
from the federal government in 2017.
So 1977 to 2017, that 40 years, yeah, year span.
And I can still, based on the activities that I have in front
of me and the potential for, youknow, picking up a good side gig

(59:53):
or even a full time job, depending on who takes notice of
what I have to offer and say, OK, let's let's let's have
Doctor Lockwood on. So I I just take it.
I just take it as it comes. Did that your military history
shape a bit your approach in current security issues,
especially when it comes to Russia?

(01:00:14):
OHS by certainly, yeah, my my study of military history and
war gaming, I would had more games on the Eastern Front.
You know that that I studied andit's my study of military
history was spanning all all periods and especially

(01:00:35):
especially the Eastern Front. Matter of fact, one interesting
little anecdote I will tell you is in 1986, I when I was in
Germany, I was invited to a little function that the
Americans were were sponsoring for their German counterparts
called German American Friendship Day.

(01:00:56):
That's what it was his German American friendship and I was
assigned to a retired German Field Marshall from World War 2.
There's about 86 years old or soand I won't tell you his name
because that could just gets it gets complicated.
It's all. Good, but he, but he, he, I had,

(01:01:18):
I saw his name and I had. He had been on the Eastern Front
and even commanding in the defence of Berlin in the closing
days of World War Two. Wow.
And I studied, I had a war gameswhich I could explore alternate
scenarios and stuff. And I had studied the Eastern

(01:01:40):
Front very thoroughly. And so, and of course the people
who are assigning me to him did not know this.
They did not know that I could speak that thoroughly to him.
And so anyway, I was introduced to this gentleman and I spoke, I
greeted him in German and he he lit up, he was happy.

(01:02:00):
His English reflects his Englishwas excellent.
We. Appreciate when somebody does an
effort. Right, start talking to you in
German. He went back into English and we
started talking and I told him that cause I had studied his
biography and what he had done. And I told him that I had done

(01:02:24):
some war game experimentation about an alternate strategy
about how how basically I took the two Panzer armies which the
Germans had used late in World War 2 to for their Battle of the
Bulge offensive against the West.
I experimented with what if the Germans had taken those two

(01:02:46):
Panzer armies and used them to attack E against the Russians
that were coming towards them and penetrate to the the
Courland Peninsula where the German 19th Army was trapped by
the advancing Russians. And open a corridor and get that
19th Army out of there. And then pull back and reinforce

(01:03:08):
the Eastern front and hold the Russians out of Germany so that
they could surrender to the Americans, the British and the
French rather than the Russians.All black.
The Russians concentrate on surrendered to the Americans and
the West. And I explained that all to him
and his eyes lit up. Yeah.

(01:03:29):
For sure. He was like, oh.
Well, he was excited. That's a.
Crap, he. He was, I explained it to him.
He says yes, yes, that would have worked exactly.
He, he, I was talking on his level.
Yeah, yeah. And he says, yes, that would
have worked. Now, the interesting conclusion
to this came several months later.

(01:03:50):
I did not know at the time that he was dying of stage 4 cancer.
He had just gotten married and to a much younger American
woman, and he too. And months later I was up in
that same area in Darmstadt, andshe told me that her husband had
died recently. But she told me that he had come

(01:04:13):
home so happy from that, she says.
Oh yeah, you lit him up. I lit him up and he said, he
said he he died believing that the Americans at last were
taking him seriously and treating him with respect
because they gave me this captain who not only could he
speak German, but he knew all about the Eastern Front

(01:04:33):
campaigns. From both sides.
Both. Sides, actually, he says he
understood me and he said and wespent a couple of hours talking
about the Eastern Front. Yeah, so.
That probably had a big impact on you, that conversation
knowing that you had that of an impact on somebody that that
lived it to the highest degree and thinking that US was just

(01:04:55):
the per enemy and. Having this, that they weren't
treating him with respect anymore because the but, but he
died a happy man. And but The thing is there are
you never know whom you're goingto influence.
You never know what encounters you're going to have.

(01:05:16):
And so you have to be prepared and be open to be and be
flexible on those sorts of things.
So my study of military history and strategy and war gaming has
come in very handy throughout mylife, expanding my mind to look
at the other possibilities, to look at alternate strategies,
alternate. History literally, so not not
biased. You're literally the guiding

(01:05:37):
gathering all the information and then the formulating your
you're a real thought of it instead of being the the bias
side of the US thinking of what we think about Germany and stuff
like that. At least now.
Yeah, you. Have it all I do.
I do have the advantage of, well, my, my colleagues in DHS,
shortly after I got there to that office, they remarked that,

(01:06:03):
that I had the reputation of being the most unflappable
person in, in, in, in DHS. You know, that I never lost my
temper. I did not blow my cool.
I mean, I had, I had a couple ofcolleagues who were in The Who
had short tempers. And they also have this awful

(01:06:24):
habit of dropping the F bomb in,in their conversation.
I mean, yeah, yeah. You, you're, you're, you're,
you're clean compared to these guys, these these two guys.
Yeah. And I said to one of them said
you better hope that you never get into a serious argument with
this other guy because all of a sudden it's going to be like

(01:06:45):
bringing 2 critical masses of U235 together and be one big
effing explosion. Yeah.
Just create a real fucking conflict right there.
Yeah, that's why you gotta be selective in your words,
especially when you're dealing with policies and other
international people. You cannot afford to lose your

(01:07:06):
temper. It it's just you lose control of
your temper, you lose control ofyourself and you just handed
control over to the other person.
It just does not. It just does not work.
Your time in the GS15 and the Department of Homeland Security
shape shape here. How did it shape your
understanding of the Nations Security strategy?

(01:07:29):
Well, the my strategy was from my perspective was shaped by a
different perspective than because I was selected to be
their director of training. So, intelligence training.
So they have a lot of trust in, you know.
Oh yeah. Oh, they did they.
Yeah, sure. And so I spent my 12 years being

(01:07:50):
a curriculum manager and instructor on mobile training
teams as well as, you know, helping to direct the overall in
the overall training effort. But the, the interesting thing
about that is, again, because the, for a while there, DHS had
morale problems. One of the exceptions to that

(01:08:12):
was the training department. Why?
Why would it, why would intelligence training people
have higher morale than the restof the department?
Well, it's because in intelligence training you are
delivering A tangible product, atangible benefit to the
students. You are teaching them skills.
And interestingly enough, critical analytical thinking was

(01:08:35):
one of the main things we taughtand, and in right intelligence
writing and briefing the overallintelligence enterprise, all the
basic skills that an intelligence analyst would need
in order to perform his or her job properly.
And critical analytical thinking, we had a little one
week long course on that and we had an end of course exercise

(01:08:58):
which helped reinforce those skills.
But you critical analytical thinking is so necessary.
Well, not not just to the intelligence profession.
For anybody. Yeah, for for all, for all
aspects of life and being able to recognize flaws in one's
thinking and it. It requires a degree of

(01:09:18):
self-awareness, which is all toouncommon.
You people are not aware of the flaws in their thinking, or not
aware that the OR even not awarethat they could make them so it.
It does require a certain amountof introspection and
self-awareness, yeah, but it's something which has to be
developed overtime. It it does not arise, you know,

(01:09:40):
you don't. You don't.
You're not born a critical thinker.
No, no, absolutely. And they don't teach you to
critical thinking elementary andhigh.
School, you know. At all.
They just know this is the fact those are the books.
You know it by heart and you're considerate, smart.
It's. Not yeah, that that's the that's
the problem. Teacher.
Teachers, unfortunately, are telling students what to think.

(01:10:01):
They never teach them how to think.
Back home one day and I told my mom like like you do a test
there between me and the person and like about life or anything
logic. I think I'm gonna destroy them
but but that girl in school she has 90 and I'm at 70 it's only
cause she remembers this bullshit more than me but let's

(01:10:22):
say we do a real IQ test. I think I got her mob is like I
don't get it. I thought school was all about
creating the most intelligent people, but it's not.
It's really who remembers this more than the other?
So somebody that. They're trying to they're trying
to stamp you into a mold. That's it and.
Somebody so you can fit into certain little, so you can start
into certain little boxes. And I'll tell you, let me tell

(01:10:45):
you about IQ tests. Not all IQ tests are created
equal. They're all different.
They are used different for different scales, the now for
example. I would be scared to death to
take the IQ test that was given to Marilyn vos Savant.
She's the woman with reputed highest IQ in the world 226.

(01:11:09):
God damn. Huge.
You take that, You take that. The Yang Q test that she took
that was given to her. That had to be the butt kicker
of all IQ tests. I, I would, I it would.
It would certainly reveal where I am on the scale and but the IQ
test that I was given, which when people ask me what my IQ

(01:11:31):
is, I said I preface it by saying OK, IQ changes over time
depending on what test you're given and what it's designed to
do. Yeah, you can do 140 on one and
185 on the other and you're likeOK, my genius, or just average.
Well, here's. The thing what you when I took
the last time I took a IQ test that gave me a number, it was in

(01:11:54):
my sophomore year of high schooland our whole class, our whole
sophomore class was given this 80 question IQ test multiple
choice and we got the results back.
It took a long time. We got it back in our beginning
of our senior year and OK, so this snapshot and 80 question

(01:12:15):
test, OK, this big book file book with all the scores in it
and so forth came back and I wasin the ROTC, junior ROTC office
looking through it and they discovered that I had the
highest IQ. I missed one question, 250.
It was designed to go up that high.

(01:12:36):
Yeah, yeah. And of course, the word got out.
Yeah, they're like he almost aced it perfect and that is rare
as shit. For us so.
So anyway. But that is a that's a snapshot
in time. You know what that does is there
are several types of intelligence, as you know, and

(01:12:57):
the way you there other aspects of intelligence are creativity
and imagination, things that Albert Einstein pointed out that
creativity and imagination is important, just as important,
just as important being able to because he he talked about these
thought experiments that he would do in developing his
theory of relativity and he had a very highly developed Senator

(01:13:21):
imagination, creativity skills. So it's it's you can't measure
IQ with just a number. It gives you an indication it
gives OK, this person may, but then you have to look at what
does that person do with it? Yeah, there are people who
advertise themselves if through having, you know, taken an IQ
test several times, you know, that's kind of fakey where they

(01:13:45):
give you this, they finally get a really high IQ score and then.
They save it put on Instagram. Yeah, you got it.
Yeah. No, I held the world.
I have one of the world's highest IQ.
So please. Yeah.
People that like that really need to avoid laxatives at all.
Let's they suddenly do a Wicked Witch of the West imitation and

(01:14:06):
disappear. But so you have these you have
these people that again, for onereason or another want to
promote themselves as being this.
But then what you when someone does that, you have to look at,
OK, this person says that he or she has a high IQ.
What have they in fact produced?What did they do with?

(01:14:28):
That what have you done? Is there, what evidence is there
that shows that you, that demonstrates that, yes, I have
IQ and I've produced this, this,this and this.
OK, then if you've got these physical evidence that shows
that the products that demonstrate that, yes, you can
produce great and wonderful things, OK, then your IQ test

(01:14:49):
has more credibility. Otherwise, you could be exposed
as a charlatan. Absolutely.
Looking back at your role and looking back at what role did
your experience as an intelligence officer play in in
shaping the US foreign policy during your time in that
service? Well, what I did is when I when

(01:15:14):
I was at an Soviet threat instructor at Fort Huachuca, for
example, and in subsequent classes or courses that I
taught, I would always introducea briefing or a class on not
only on US and Soviet strategy, but also I would introduce a
segment on the Russian view of US strategy.

(01:15:36):
Go through it. This is what this Russians
concluded. These are the implications of
that for foreign policy and, andI was using that as a basis for
that. We need to develop superior
ballistic missile defence and, and fortunately my book, my
first book had come out at the same time as Reagan's Star Wars

(01:15:57):
speech. So I was able to develop and
talk about Star Wars and its desirability at the same time
that I had my first book was outthere and I had a body of
knowledge that I could refer. To.
So, so, so that, so that helped quite a bit.
And so anyway, so right now it'sso now what I'm doing is I'm

(01:16:20):
patiently waiting and again on my other producers, like I say,
are trying to advertise me with say Fox News and say they take a
pass that I do and say, hey, youreally ought to you really
should have Doctor Lockwood on. And yes, he's got some interest,
interesting perspectives. And because Fox News is pretty

(01:16:43):
pretty much agreed on, is the most pro Trump of the available
networks out? There.
Yeah, and there are, there are other, you know, podcasts and
others that are comparably pro Trump and so forth, right.
There's a mixed bag all out there.
But so again, we advertise this and we pass it along and say,

(01:17:04):
OK, well, let's see what Doctor Lockwood has to say.
And and it's so like bread cast upon the waters.
He just, you go out and see what?
See who takes it. And now, like your wife said, I,
I wanted to say this earlier, she she's like, I'll be patient
and stuff. A lot of people in life there
are they, they just wait for thedestination.
It's like not appreciate the journey of learning, going

(01:17:27):
through hell and back and all that because life it is mostly
the journey. Those destinations are right
maybe once, twice, maybe 10 times if you're lucky person,
but most of the time they don't arrive all the time.
So if you're waiting on that to feel achieve or waiting on that
to be happy, man, it's gonna be a long ass life.
Appreciate the fucking journey. Look like there's a guy I was

(01:17:48):
talking to last week. He's like, oh, how much money
did that your music do? I'm like, well, bro is just the
first year was like, yeah, but how much I'm like, well, just
$300.00 like damn, you can't live with that.
Well, obviously, but it's the ball that starts rolling, Bro is
like maybe 2 years gonna be a bit bigger it you gotta start
that ball and that patience is the key to success.
People, a lot of people like just wait for these big

(01:18:10):
accomplishment. Wait for that person, my love to
find a love or buy that house. No, appreciate the journey
before the house. Appreciate the journey before
the career. Well, let me just give you a
minor, just a small example here.
As I told you, I've got my retirement pensions and I've got
Social Security and so forth. And that puts us in a pretty

(01:18:30):
good position, you know. And So what now is happening on
the big on the big picture, President Trump wants to drop
taxes on Social Security. OK, don't tax social.
So I just look at that and I do,I do a little back of the
envelope calculation and say, oh, OK, my tax bracket drops and
OK, that's that's a benefit. Yeah, then.

(01:18:53):
And he's even talking about dropping federal income taxes
altogether. Now keep in mind, before you say
Oh my God he can't do that, keepin mind that before 1913 there
was no federal income tax. In the United States, people,
I'm like, before 1913, that was no, nobody's stealing your

(01:19:14):
money. But after that.
No federal income? And how was the United States
getting its income tariffs. They were getting it through
tariffs and other things. And they learned how to keep
their their, the budget, you know, pretty well balanced and
with your pretty well restrained.
And So what President Trump is doing is not without historical

(01:19:37):
precedent. He's doing it on a scale that's
never been attempted before. So it's it's a calculated roll
of the dice. But there is a lot of good
historical precedent in theory to back it up.
So it's worth a shot because we do know that if we continued
down the path that it was started by the previous
administrations, we know how that's going to end.

(01:20:00):
Yeah, economists say this is where we're OK.
It's time to. Go in a different direction.
And so far he's got the support of the American people, and
that's fascinating. So now you have to figure out,
OK, so you hear where I'm sitting, alright, what President
Trump is doing, you know, there will be certain minor, if he

(01:20:23):
does these things like drop federal income tax and forth,
then OK, my wife and I are in even better position, you know,
based on what we've done. And so we have that.
And then what we have to do is well, they say, OK, if they if I
get this a good side gig, if youwill, or a good, a good job that

(01:20:48):
I'm happy with that I feel productive in Yep, that brings
in additional income. Fine, great.
We can do more things. We don't accumulate stuff
because my Geo there's we we've got plenty of stuff.
Thank God of ebooks because you'd be packed to the roof and
books with your. Wife.

(01:21:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's just said.
That's why I'm grateful for e-books, you know, have to worry
about that. She she reads voraciously and I
always have room in my budget for her, for her books.
We I have a critical thinking segment, so this is it.
So I'm going to ask you like a four questions about critical

(01:21:30):
thinking and we'll see where yougo with it.
So what's the greatest lesson you learned in your time and
intelligence that you still apply today?
Hmm Grace lesson I learned. I still apply today, same lesson
my my dad told my dad told me, you know, when I was growing up.

(01:21:50):
Always consider the source. Always consider why the person
is saying that's just telling you something is telling you
that. Do they have an agenda?
Do they have a reason to? Are they trying to manipulate
you so you have to end? And my wife, my wife Kathleen,
always cautions me about that and looking at agendas of other
people and other organizations. And my beloved wife is passing

(01:22:14):
through right now. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, yes, we're having fun, she
says. She says you've been on there
almost two hours. Well, you know, time flies when
you're having fun. Absolutely.
But. But but always consider the
source and if you can, if you can take that one step further

(01:22:36):
to gain that skill. That poet Robert Burns talked
about being able to see ourselves as others see yourself
as others see you. Now that's a rare skill.
And in again, it it, it conveys much wisdom if you can cultivate
it. And basically you rely on in
order to gain that skill, you rely on good friends who are not

(01:22:59):
afraid to tell you the. Truth.
Yeah, exactly. So second question, what's a
mistake you made in your career that you didn't, definitely
didn't repeat? Ah, mistake I made in my career
that I definitely did not repeat.
OK. Or trying to go for a command

(01:23:19):
position, you know to do it because the conventional wisdom
is, is your intelligence career career goes you're more likely
to promotion if you have a successful command in the
position. And I try, I tried on several
occasions to be selected for a company command position, which

(01:23:40):
is the most available thing thatI had for an intelligence
officer and successful. And then I eventually I
realized, hey, I might as well played strength.
I need to play to strength, being an analyst and other
energy skills that were there for me.
You know, command is not in my makeup and so I did not feel,
did not ever repeat trying to orcommand position.

(01:24:01):
What's your personal biggest achievement, either in your
career or your your life that you're most proud of?
Wow, OK, I've got a number of things.
I'm very proud of the the thing that my achievement that
apparently has given me a well, quite a significant reputation

(01:24:23):
is my development of the Lockwood Analytical Method for
prediction, which is available in textbook form as I've
mentioned to you. You can show that to your
listener, listeners LAMP Lockwood Analytical Method for
prediction. It is a structured method for
predictive intelligence analysisand apparently the Defence

(01:24:43):
Intelligence Agency has described it as a classical
methodology. It is still in use in the
intelligence community. Nice.
Matter of fact, when I was working as a contractor a few
years ago and one of my fellow instructors saw my name and he
asked me, he says, Doctor Lockwood, are you the Lockwood
of Lamb? Are you the Lockwood of Lamp

(01:25:07):
theme? Got that right?
I said, yes, I'm, I'm, I'm a Lockwood who invented lamp.
Wow. And so yes, that that has given
me a, well, arguably A worldwidereputation because I got when
back in the year 2000, when I was working for Answer
Incorporated, I got an invitation from Santiago, Chile.

(01:25:32):
These two young women who are going through graduate had seen
my lamp method and they incorporated it into their
master's thesis and their government, their, their, their
university. Bernardo O Higgins University in
Santiago, Chile invited me down to to Chile to give a lecture on

(01:25:52):
the lamp which. Was simply must have been
thrilled. You're like, wow.
I was, I was there giving to this big auditorium of people.
It was simultaneously being phones on it was soul tendency
being translated into Spanish. Wow, OK.
So, well, so I, so I made a point of speaking slowly, yeah,
yeah, more so as to give the interpreter time to translate

(01:26:16):
and that way. So I was very proud of that.
And now what what I have is a isI have something that will, it
will certainly will certainly outlive me.
That method. There are many people.
I have taught thousands of students online as well as in
classrooms. I've taught thousands of
students the LAMP method and so many more people know of me than

(01:26:41):
I know them. So, so, so that is that is
something I've been very proud of.
And I'm hoping I have one publicthe first LAMP textbook in 2013
published. I might be able to God willing
to publish a revised and updatededition.
Yeah, because lamp LAMP itself to a variety of intelligence.

(01:27:01):
Facts and life advanced so fast.That's for sure.
You're always. Yeah, matter of fact, once you
have a chance to see it yourself, you'll you'll
understand. Yes, this can be applied to
quite a few things. So what?
That's the one I'm proudest of. And what what's 1 of the hardest
decision you had to make? One of the hardest decisions I
had to make. Yeah.
Ohk. OK, well when I was at West

(01:27:25):
Point again that that 16 months,I was at West Point, the West as
I told you, West Point hates nonconformists and Westwood had
something called a leadership evaluation system where they
determined your aptitude for serving in the military,
leadership aptitude for the service.

(01:27:46):
And it's not very well known category at West Point, but you
can be kicked out of the Academyfor deficiency in leadership
aptitude. For the service and how they
determine this, they used peer ratings.
Everyone in your company ranked who was highest in leadership
aptitude and the two people at the bottom.

(01:28:07):
And so I was ranked at the bottom by everybody.
I didn't, I didn't even know whomy friends were.
I was the fire hydrant and all my friends were dogs.
So, so that put me into a situation eventually where they
gave me a category one leadership board and then they

(01:28:30):
took, put kicked me to a category 2 leadership board,
which determines whether or not I would be kicked out of the
Academy for deficiency. I consulted with an attorney
before a military attorney and Iasked him what is the last
moment that I can resign from the Academy and not have it on
my record. We would simply say resigned for

(01:28:52):
personal reasons. And the attorney said, well,
according to current regulations, the way it reads,
you can resign at any moment before the board renders its
final decision. So most category two boards ran
for a maximum of two hours. Mine ran for 9:00 because I I

(01:29:15):
cross examined everybody. I got so much questions too.
I wanted them to. I wanted them to be.
I wanted to hold them accountable.
Clarify yourself. Explain why you said.
This. That's so good.
I, I, I dragged him through a nine and finally at the end of

(01:29:36):
that board, and I want to say when they said, I asked the
president of the board, I said, Sir, I would like to have 5
minutes to prepare my final statement.
And he said, he said, oh, very well, Mr. Lockwood.
OK, so all the officers on that board cleared the room and I sat
there thinking I said OK, I'm ina doom loop.

(01:30:00):
You know the doom loop is you know you're you're caught in the
best. Yeah, no matter what, you're
screwed. Yeah, right.
Yeah, I knew that, Ian, even if I survived that board and they
kept. Me it would.
It would tend to you forever. Well, it would be worse yet.
There was another peer rating session coming up in just a
couple of weeks. Nobody in the company knew that

(01:30:23):
I was going through a board. So they would have put, they
would puree to me down at the bottom again and I'd be put back
in the cycle of category one, board category.
And I would be stuck in that cycle until they finally kicked
me out. And so I said no, they the
difficult decision was said, butif I resign now, break the

(01:30:43):
cycle, I get out, I don't have it on my record.
I can then go and down to, you know, basically go back into
ROTC. I didn't have, it's quite a
clear picture yet, but I had a pretty good idea.
But I can wipe the slate clean, start over.
And so when they came back in, Iaddressed the board and I said.

(01:31:06):
So right away. No, I said, I said, I said.
I've reviewed the evidence and the testimony of the past nine
hours and I have concluded that it is no longer in my interest
to continue. I have therefore exercising my
option under regulation to resign, and the Colonel in
charge of that board. He practically dropped his

(01:31:29):
teeth. He was shocked, he said.
No one has ever done this before.
And I said they're not smart. No, I said yeah.
I said. Nevertheless, my attorney tells
me that that is my option under regulation, and they agreed.
And they say they let me resign.No problem.

(01:31:49):
I discovered subsequently that they closed that loophole.
No one else would ever be able. They would all subsequent cadets
they. Appeared before open the black
hole that right when you went through it they.
Shut it. I shut it behind me because they
would never allow anyone else toever do that to them again.
And so I but it was a difficult decision, but the right one.

(01:32:13):
Yeah, smart one. Yeah.
And I so I got out of there. Because you took back control of
the direction of your life. Because right there you, you
knew you were in the loop that they were gonna drag you through
this for a while for nothing at the end of everything, that
there was no winning. So there was no point in.
Continuing, let's just get off this track right right now.
Exactly another wow. Exactly right.
Took back control and again thatwas the most difficult because I

(01:32:38):
enjoyed. Interestingly, as hard as it
was, I enjoyed being at West Point and but it was because I
did not recognize yet that I wasessentially an unalterable non
conformist. And that was because of the fact
that I had Asperger's Syndrome, which again, I did not know.
Hmm. I had no idea what I what I was

(01:33:01):
at that point and so, but it wasvery interesting.
So yeah, that would be the most difficult decision, marrying my
wife, Kathleen. No, Brady, that that's the
perfect answer for your wife forsure at your book.
She knew what she knew. She knew what she was all about.
My history. At your book, the Russian view

(01:33:24):
of US strategy offers a unique perspective.
How did the writing of this bookchallenge or reshape your
understanding of US foreign policy, especially regarding
Russia? Well, because it showed what the
Russian showed, what the Russians viewed as their main
means of leverage over US foreign policy.

(01:33:46):
The right, The key thing is thatthe Russians have viewed during
the Cold War as well as up to the present time, they have
viewed their nuclear missile arsenal as being their primary
means of leverage, forcing the United States to adapt to their
foreign policy goals. They did it during the Cold War,
but the Ronald Reagan's production of SDI thwarted that

(01:34:07):
objective and panicked them. Really.
And during the post war period, even the the Russians still view
their nuclear missile arsenal asbeing not only their symbol of
great power status, but it is also their primary means of
leverage over the United States in particular and over the West
in general. And you've seen during this

(01:34:29):
Russian Ukrainian war how often,practically constantly the
Russians are threatening to escalate to to nuclear escalate.
They try to put vivid pictures of they're trying to play on the
on the Western fear of nuclear escalation.
They're trying to do that to force a peace on their terms.
Yeah, yeah, that's it to win. They're, they're trying to win.

(01:34:50):
They, they do not believe in compromise.
Now, by the way, the Russians technically have a word for
compromise. They borrowed it from English,
OK. They borrowed our word
compromise, put Cyrillic lettersin the compromise, OK.
But they're but our debt. When you think of compromise
from an American. I give you something, you give

(01:35:12):
me back something. Quite OK.
Yeah, OK, You are in effect. When Americans talk about
compromise, they are meeting theother person halfway.
Both sides gain something not when you watch, when the Russian
not the Russians, when the Russians translate compromise.
The Russian translation of compromise is mutual surrender.

(01:35:35):
Both sides lose. Yeah, something they have
nothing you. Have both sides have nothing.
It's a negative. It's a negative connotation.
The Russians hate compromise. Imagine that's not only one
word. So imagine the the differential.
And you see how difficult it is to negotiate with them.
It shows you how difficult it isto negotiate.
The word like that. President Trump is finding that

(01:35:55):
out. And he said because the Russians
are insisting on essentially what amounts to unconditional
surrender, they are insisting onthat.
And that's their idea of negotiation.
So now, so the European Union full understands this.
So they're saying they're going to continue unless Russia

(01:36:16):
withdraws from Ukraine, all of Ukraine, including the Crimea.
The European Union is saying thesanctions will continue.
OK. They, they just told Russia
stuff it. And now the United States, you
know, President Trump is, is getting more and more ticked off
at the Russians for refusing to agree to a ceasefire because he

(01:36:40):
wants to have a good deal and the Russians will refusing to
give it to him. So President Trump has been
saying effect one point. He said we can do this the easy
way or we can do this the hard way.
And apparently the Russians are insisting on doing it the hard
way. And so that is what President
Trump is going to end up giving him a really hard deal.

(01:37:01):
Any in Ohio also, you noticing it with his tariffs?
President Trump just not a shorttime ago declared that he was
prepared to raise tariffs on China's 100%.
Oh, yeah. He said, OK, you don't want to
do it. And he's threatening to cut off
talks with the Chinese and just raise the tariffs and say, OK,

(01:37:22):
come back when you're willing towhen you're willing to be to
reasonable. So this is a president that has
launched on a very decisive course of action.
And in this, I would say that his golden, his golden Dome
objective in private, the Russians are probably panicking.

(01:37:44):
Because if if the Trump administration follows through
correctly and in particular follows through on the course of
action that I will be recommending, then they have a
means of neutralizing Russia's great power status.
And that terrifies them more than anything else.
For sure, because after when we tell them to cease-fire, they

(01:38:05):
fucking will. That's the difference there
without without putting our people endangering going down
there. The model that the model, by the
way, that you'll like the motto that I use for wisdom, the
Worldwide Strategic Defence Matrix, which is what I
recommend in the Russian view ofUS strategy.
I recommend first recommended itback in 1993.
Wisdom Worldwide Strategic Defence Matrix.

(01:38:28):
It supplants the old doctrine ofmutually assured destruction.
MAD Yeah. And that that's the that's the
paradigm that the Biden administration was operating
under. And now with wisdom.
My motto for wisdom is wisdom does not kill.
And it doesn't. It simply neutralizes the
nuclear weapons that they are our adversaries.

(01:38:50):
Hmm. And if you do that, yeah,
President Trump says that he doesn't want, he wants to
abolish nuclear weapons. Well, with wisdom you can do
that. And with the other thing is we
if you adopted that type of strategy, then you do not need
to spend anymore money building more or better nuclear weapons.

(01:39:10):
It it's counterproductive, it doesn't affect the other side
view. You don't build any more nuclear
weapons. You build that golden Dome, you
neutralize their nuclear weapons, and that's the right
way to go. Paying the certain sports like
the the the best offence is the best defence there because if
the other buddy you can't score,they can't win.

(01:39:31):
So if they can't hurt you, they can't really win.
So you just take out their offence and by taking out their
offence you don't need to go on offence yourself and risk
people. Yeah, yeah.
Well, basically with wisdom, with a worldwide strategic
defence matrix, which would be the central pillar of the Golden
Dome. Then, once you have neutralized

(01:39:51):
the nuclear weapons of Russia, China and North Korea, what else
do they have to threaten you with?
Well, pretty much nothing. Not much.
So let's do this. I've heard the Butcher section
tell us an uncomfortable truth of being an intelligence
officer. And they don't need to be long
answers. You can.
Answer the uncomfortable truth of being an intelligence
officer. Yeah, well, for one thing, you

(01:40:14):
can't talk about what you do now.
You can't talk with your. Well, look at the classified
stuff that I. Have.
Exactly. No, you you have to seal off a
portion of your thoughts and your brain and you people who
talk about their if. If you have people that talk
about their intelligence careerson social media, they are fools

(01:40:37):
for sure because they are makingyou.
If you do that, you are making yourself a target, a target for
foreign espionage and. Everything for your own country
as well. Yes.
So yeah, your own country might want to arrest you.
So you're. So what you have to do is as an
intelligence officer, you have to be prepared to keep secrets

(01:41:00):
for. Life in secrecy of.
Career, career. Don't talk about your job.
Don't talk about what you're doing that day or to anyone who
is not, who does not have a needto know who's not, who's not
part of your office, who is not part of your circle.
And you can confine that. You have to seal off that

(01:41:21):
portion of your life from the rest of the world.
And if you don't, you are running a big risk.
What's the hardest truth you realize in your life or career?
The hardest hole, the hardest truth that was that I realized
in my in my life and career was actually told to me by a senior

(01:41:43):
GS15 in director of combat when I first came on active duty at
the four Wachuku. His name was Edwin Moses.
How prophetic he Edwin Moses, fine gentleman.
She has 15 or GS15. He was a deputy there in combat
developments and he told me, Jonathan, your career is going

(01:42:06):
to be interesting to watch but dangerous to emulate.
Right. And in retrospect, you realize
all true that was. When you're, when you're an
officer, well, well, especially as young as I was.
Yeah, yeah, and different from everyone else.
Let me tell you how different when I was a captain again at

(01:42:29):
Forward Chuka, another Lieutenant Colonel from the
Office of Deputy Chief of Staff Intelligence in Washington, DC,
There was a the commanding 3 star in charge of it then Ohio
tenant General Odom, was he? He had sent this Lieutenant
Colonel out on various jobs. One of he he met me in the

(01:42:53):
hallway of our bachelor officersquarters and he told me, he says
that Lieutenant General Odom hadassigned him as one of his
additional duties, keeping trackof the Soviet area studies. pH
D's in the Army. OK, he said.
At that time, when you were speaking to me, there were 7

(01:43:13):
Soviet area studies PhDs in the army.
Yeah, I I was 1 and so was Lieutenant General Odom.
He's two of the seven, OK, he says.
He's of those 7 Soviet area studies PhD 2 have published
books. I was 1.

(01:43:36):
Lieutenant General Odom was the other.
So I put myself in very. That put me in very exclusive
company, absolutely so. But it was an uncomfortable
truth that that made me essentially different from every
other officer in the Army. And it's can't you can't it in

(01:43:56):
effect almost the ultimate non conformist.
What's the most uncomfortable moral dilemma that you had to
face? As far as a moral dilemma, yeah,
we do not intelligence officers.They're one thing that
intelligence officers never should try to become.
They should never try to become famous because Benjamin Benjamin

(01:44:23):
Franklin had an interesting saying about intelligence, about
the thing about keeping secrets.He said that 2-3 people can keep
a secret if two of them are dead.
The song at the beginning of a Pretty Little Liars, but they
they say it with two people. The only reason a secret could
be kept by two people is one of them is that.

(01:44:46):
I don't know what I said this to.
The secret is one of them is dead borrowing.
They were borrowing from Benjamin Franklin.
Saying they had even know that man that is incredible and the
two last ones of uncomfortable truths that what's something
about the intelligence communitycommunity that you feel could be

(01:45:07):
better understood or improved you fine.
Well, I would encourage the intelligence community to learn
to understand the perceptions ofother nations.
Other nations are not our friends.
You know, they need to, but theyneed.
They have agendas. They have things they want to
know about us. And yeah, again, they are.

(01:45:29):
They're always trying to find out what our what our way of
doing things is. And so basically, intelligence
officers should always try to study the history and the
culture and the thinking of other nations of the world, both
sides. You have to really get the grasp
of. It you, you're trying because

(01:45:51):
one of the biggest faults of the, that the US intelligence
community, to its credit, tries to avoid is the the analytical
flaw that I call mirror imaging.Mirror imaging is projecting
your own thinking, going to the other side and assuming that
they see that they, they, they think the same way you do.
Yeah. Exactly.
And emerge Americans are egregiously guilty of this.

(01:46:16):
One of the things that I discovered in the thing that
Russian view of US strategy and in my doctoral dissertation, the
Russians also mirror image and project their thinking.
Yeah, they assume that that other that other nations take
the same attitude towards international affairs that they
do. That that is so true.

(01:46:37):
And the consequences of this aredifferent for both sides.
For sure, for sure. It's a different repercussions
to not knowing the full truth there.
And that's an aspect of intelligent work that you
believe that is misrepresented in movies or by the media of
intelligence. Work.
That's easy. Go ahead.
That's it. The the, the, the

(01:46:58):
misrepresentation is that if youtell people that you're in
intelligence work or that you are in the intelligence
community, everyone assumes thatyou're a spy.
That's not true. They, they, they, they, they all
think you live at James Bond type of.
Experience have double life perfect.

(01:47:18):
But you've got this double life.You have this secret life that
you're whatever that you don't dare reveal to anyone else.
And well, and The thing is the thing that U.S.
Army into the US Army apprises in its intelligence officers.
Intelligence officers are supposed to look like, act like
and be like everyone else. You, you don't, you don't, you

(01:47:39):
don't see a person on the street.
There goes intelligence officer.Yeah.
Or that guy's dress as an intelligence.
Officer. Yeah, they're sure.
Not. Yeah, we, we, we had and people
that had a problem with this, weused to have people in the
counterintelligence course officers in the county.
You could always spot who you could always spot who the
counterintelligence students were because they were the ones

(01:48:02):
dressed in these these three piece suits and.
Tight men in black. Yeah, they, they look, they look
like something almost like a character of Men in Black.
Ohe yeah, there's a counterintelligence.
Version. Late Here's the latest batch.
And so people have to, intelligence personnel basically
have to learn how to blend in, not to be obtrusive, not to be,

(01:48:26):
you know, not to be remarkable in any way.
It's under the radar. There, yeah, just you fly under.
Your life and career is under their radar, right?
And then that's, and that's, that's, that's the main, that's
the main misunderstanding about people who are who work in the
intelligence community. They, they like to, they, they,

(01:48:49):
they like to kind of like to follow the the French, French
saying live happily, live hidden.
Exactly and safely people. So and.
They live hidden. So thank you, Jonathan to come
on the show. Where can everybody find you?
Do you have any socials that we could find you on?
And where and where can we buy those books?

(01:49:12):
Because because I have been a career intelligence
professional, I my practice has been to eschew interacting
visibly on social media. It's just an ingrained habit.
It's much safer that way. And so the less obtrusive I am,
the happier I am. And but I don't mind coming on

(01:49:33):
podcasts like this and talking about things.
So basically, if they want, you know, they can, you know, they
can certainly get an idea of theway I think by, you know, the
book. They were Lockwood analytical
method for prediction and the Russian view of US strategy
either. And they are also not just
available in hardback or paperback, but also in ebook

(01:49:56):
format. So in case, just in case though.
So that's good. That's a nice little
development. So anyway, let's see my goodness
how time has flown. Yeah, I flew.
It flew a lot. So I really appreciate you
taking the time and coming on and telling us your story and
career. So next time we have you on, at
least we have your whole career packed up in one and I'll.

(01:50:20):
I'll take questions. Well, Doctor Lockwood, see last
episode. Last exciting.
Episode exactly. So thanks again for coming on
and you guys have a great weekend.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Retired US Intelligence Colonel Journey & The Lockwood Analytical Method for Prediction (LAMP) EP69

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

All Episodes

Retired US Intelligence Colonel Journey & The Lockwood Analytical Method for Prediction (LAMP) EP69

Stuff You Should Know