Can You Drink Your Way Sober? | Katie Herzog, Author, Journalist, & Host of Blocked and Reported - Stronger Weekly

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
In that time a lot of my friendsfrom college have gotten sober.
Just in the last like 5 to 7 years a lot of people have
gotten sober. And when I talk to my old
friends now, all of us are just sort of shocked at how much we
drank. It wasn't on the weekends, it
was every night. It was every night.

(00:34):
I'm going to start with this. So I have had the privilege of
reading a digital kind of pre read of your book that's coming
out. It's coming out in the summer,
right? It's coming out at the end of
September. September.
OK, full time drink your way sober.
Awesome, awesome title. We're going to get into that.
The science based method, the break, Greek and alcohol.
But something jumped out to me on the first couple pages.

(00:55):
I want to ask you about the kickus off.
So you are a accomplished journalist, podcaster, very well
researched, very thoughtful, andyou kicked off your book with a
quote from Homer Simpson. The sage.
Everyone needs a guru. Exactly.
And the quote, which is phenomenal, and I'm going to ask
you about why you chose that quote.
But the quote, and this is quoting Homer to alcohol, the

(01:16):
cause of and solution to all of life's problems.
It's so true, isn't it a temporary solution?
Long term? Not so much, but temporary
solution. So true.
Why'd you choose that? And maybe just go a little
deeper in there. So the, the truth is that I
thought it was funny and I thought that would be, I was
actually surprised that I, I, you know, I've read a lot of

(01:37):
Quitlet and I was surprised thatI couldn't find any other books
that had started with that little.
What's it called an epigraph? Because it seems like such an
obvious one. I think it speaks to the, I
don't know how you feel about the term alcoholic, but it's a
term that I used to describe myself.
And I think it speaks to a very common alcoholic experience,
which is this, you know, this substance that we both love and

(01:59):
hate. It sort of captures all of it.
And, and I also, I wanted it to sort of set the tone for the
book. The book is, is serious for
sure, but there are also momentsof humor.
And I and I thought that that that would set the tone really
well. About a serious and
consequential and important topic, but just kind of layering
in some lightheartedness. Yeah, I mean, anybody who has

(02:22):
who has sat through enough a meetings and I did not we'll get
into it, but I did not get soberthrough a A but I have sat
through many meetings, a meetings.
There are moments of there can be moments of absolute horror
and moments of absolute levity and I think that that any any
problem drinker has experienced probably much of both.

(02:44):
There's beauty in those spaces, and then there's the other
sadness, and there's some thingsthat are scary, for sure.
You mentioned language, and that's actually one of the
things that I was really lookingforward to asking about because
you're also very intentional about the language that you
choose and you laid that out in the first sections of your book.
One of the things that jumped out to me, you didn't use
alcohol with, but you talk a lotabout the spectrum, right?

(03:05):
Alcohol use disorder. And then also, I've pulled this
out person with alcohol problemsor struggles, right?
Let's talk about the importance of language when we talk about
this. Yeah, so a lot of people in the
recovery community absolutely hate the term alcoholic or
alcoholism. And clinicians, as I'm sure you
know, clinicians have really moved away from that term
because it seems to. There's a couple reasons.

(03:26):
I think part of it, you know, isa well-intentioned desire to to
use a term that isn't as loaded to get away from the stigma that
comes along with alcoholic. I completely get that.
But there's this concept of the euphemism treadmill, right?
And so any term that is used to replace, to describe a concept,
you know, a term becomes outdated or becomes politically
incorrect, whereas too loaded with stigma, people or, or

(03:51):
institutions change the terminology and that term ends
up becoming outdated and politically correct.
And you can see this most readily in terms like, you know,
that the term used to describe people with Down syndrome used
to be Mongoloid. And then the publicly, the, the
politically correct term was retarded.
And now that term is politicallyincorrect.

(04:11):
So, so, so terminology is constantly changing and, and,
and, and I think that's one reason that clinicians have
moved away from the term alcoholism and alcoholic because
it's just so loaded. And the other reason, and
probably the more important reason is, you know, as you
mentioned, alcohol use disorder is a spectrum.
It's a vast spectrum. And where you fall on that
spectrum, if you're at the at the sort of mild end of the

(04:34):
spectrum, the word alcoholic might not.
I feel like it describes you, but that doesn't necessarily
mean that you have a problem. I'm totally fine with using the
term alcoholic to describe myself.
I don't think I am an alcoholic anymore, but I think I was for a
long time. I don't consider myself in
recovery. I consider myself recovered,
which in itself is probably fairly controversial, but I'm

(04:57):
comfortable with that term, in part because I think it's really
evocative. Everybody knows what you mean
when you say alcoholic, and I use terms like drunk, wino,
lush, these colloquial terms because, you know, I'm a writer
and I like the way they sound. That's also just part of it.
Yeah, it kind of rolls off the tongue and I'd say what I've had
some some pretty cool people have a lot of insights on this

(05:17):
show to talk about this very topic.
You know the difference between alcohol use disorder?
Alcoholic. I've heard it described as a
moral model also, like more clinical model, but I haven't
had someone kind of float between the two.
I'm sort of in between those worlds, I would say.
Yeah, I heard you actually say there's like this kind of on or

(05:38):
off myth is something I heard you say on a on a podcast
interview, meaning that we tend to think about drinking as we're
either like, it's completely sabotaging and ruining our life,
we're experiencing homelessness,it's a disaster and you can't
drink at all. Or you're, you know, you're
basically completely absent. Like the point is, like, I think
there's kind of space in the Gray for some people.

(05:59):
Would you agree? Oh, absolutely.
And I think that's, you know, AAI never knock.
AAA has so saved so many. It feels like virtue singling
when I'm saying this, but it feels it has genuinely has saved
so many people's lives. And I'm not just saying that
because I, I don't want the a, apeople to come for me, but
within a A and within sort of traditional 12 step models and

(06:20):
within the rehab industry, there's this persistent idea
that once you have crossed that invisible line into problem
drinking, into alcoholism, that is it you, you can never have
another sip. And I find that for my, from my
experience, that thinking, whichI believed for a long time kept
me drinking for much longer thanI should have.

(06:41):
Then I then I, you know, I kept drinking for 15 years after I
sort of knew that I had a problem.
I continued to drink because that idea that the only path
forward was total abstinence, that I could never have a drink
again was so just scary. It was incomprehensible.
I literally could not imagine mylife without alcohol.

(07:02):
And if that was the only path forward, I didn't want it.
And you know, and there are programs like moderation
management, I sort of dabbled inthat.
I dabbled in SMART Recovery. But in the end, the message that
I think most of us have absorbed, those of us of a
certain age, this might be different for younger folks is
but the the message we have largely absorbed from the
culture is that once you're an alcoholic, the only step forward

(07:24):
is total abstinence. Yeah, yeah.
No, I agree with that completely.
Just the idea of not having any alcohol whatsoever when I was
contemplating that, you know, I just go to like, I mean, this,
this is controversial as well, but I've had some really amazing
times when alcohol was involved,you know, growing up in the
Jersey Shore, used their alcoholwas all over the place, right.

(07:44):
And I've had these like, incredibly useful high moments
of like, I don't mean literally high, but like these big moments
of like tailgating for a concert, going out and
celebrating people's 21st birthdays.
And then, you know, even kind ofmore subtle things.
But like now later on in life, like, you know, going out,
enjoying a good glass of wine for dinner with my wife.
Like I had such positive experiences.
So when I was unaware of the different like avenues to have a

(08:08):
healthier relationship or no relationship, it's like I was
thinking like, what do I have togive all of that away?
And it's almost like a FOMO and sadly.
Totally. Oh, yeah.
I think there's a real grieving process for people, you know,
alcohol. This is sort of a cliche, but
alcohol, it feels like a toxic lover.
You know what I mean? Like something that you
absolutely know is bad for you, but you can't give up.

(08:30):
Or at least that was my experience with it.
I did eventually give it up. I've been sober now for several
years. Totally sober.
Don't miss it. Much happier than I was before.
But for the vast majority of my adulthood, and I started
drinking in in middle school, the vast majority of my not even
adulthood, but like youth, adolescents, alcohol was such a
through line and such a part of my identity that I could not

(08:52):
imagine living without it. It would.
It would be like living without food or water.
That's how intrinsic it was to my daily experience.
Yeah. Where'd you?
Where'd you get that from? Why do you think that it latched
on to you the way that it did? I think, you know, I think it's,
it's twofold. I think part of it is just is
genetics. I come from a, my parents
aren't, I wouldn't describe themas Alcoholics, but I have
alcohol in my extended. I come from like a very Irish

(09:14):
Catholic family actually from, from, from New Jersey.
I'm not from New Jersey, but my,my, my mom's side of the family
is all, all from that area. Big but big family, you know,
and a lot, a lot of addiction onthat side of my family.
So I think that's part of it. I just had a genetic propensity
for, for alcoholism. And I think, you know, the other
thing is exposure. So I don't have all of the risk

(09:36):
factors. Like I don't have a, I don't
have trauma in my background or anything like that.
I come from a very stable familyhome, but I had genetic risk and
I started drinking young and I drank repeatedly.
So those factors themselves, it was sort of like the perfect
cocktail, so. You said you started drinking at
like 14 years old, but then earlier on you said when you

(09:57):
sorry, were you going to jump inthere?
Well, I was, I had my first drink.
I was in middle school. I mean, even before high school.
Yeah, I was probably like 12, but seems crazy.
That seems so like at the time it seemed very normal.
Now it seems like, look at 12 year olds now.
It's like you wear your babies. I can sign diatribe here, but I
can. I can remember the absolute

(10:17):
first time I ever had alcohol. It was out of Saint Patty's Day
parties. Everyone came over.
And my cousin, he listens. I won't name him.
He knows who he is. He gave me a middle light and I
can't remember that first feeling of, of being buzzed to
double click on that what what really what grabbed me and it's
taken me years to realize this, but like the buzz, fine.

(10:37):
That's a word. We all get it.
But it was the first time that Iever kind of disassociated or
ingested anything that shifted my head space and that's what I
became addicted to. I can remember that switch and
it took two decades for me to really question why, like why
me? But back to you.
So what was it like? You know, high school, college.

(10:59):
Pretty typical. I drank, you know, I drank in
high school. I'm from a rural, I'm from
western North Carolina, sort of a rural Appalachian area.
You know, keg parties in someone's field, everybody
drinking by the silo, burning tires and Christmas trees.
And then in college, like a very, very heavy, I didn't go to
a party. I went to sort of like a hippie

(11:20):
partying school. I went to University of North
Carolina at Asheville, which is sort of like a, like a poor
man's, I don't know, Hampshire college or something.
And you know, just some really heavy drinking culture.
And now I, I talk to a lot of, alot of people that I went to
college with. So this was, I graduated 20
years ago. Actually, it's shocking to me.

(11:40):
So 20 years ago, in that time, alot of my friends from college
have gotten sober. Just in the last like 5 to 7
years, a lot of people have gotten sober.
And when I talk to my old friends now, all of us are just
sort of shocked at how much we drank.
It wasn't on the weekends, it was every night.
It was every night. And you know what, a lot of
people, a lot of my friends grewout of that.

(12:04):
They after college, they got jobs, they settled down, you
know, they had to be at work in the morning.
And so they just gradually aged out of drinking.
And that is incredibly common. That's when I was researching
the book. I was really surprised to find
out this is called natural recovery.
And it's just a sort of, this iswhat most people, most people
do. Most people are able to sort of

(12:25):
just think, you know what, this isn't working for my life
anymore. I got to get up in the morning.
I don't want to be hungover, so I'm not going to drink.
I wasn't able to do that. So my life really revolved
around when, where and how much I could drink and it was like
that for for another almost 2 decades.
A long time, yeah, a lot. Now was it like peaks and

(12:46):
valleys? Yes, yeah, Peaks and valleys.
So my 20s was absolutely crazy, drinking every night at the
bars. Every night.
I was a bar. I was broke, so I would not.
I would, if I could afford only food or booze, I would choose
booze. I would like go to and get a
smoothie So I would have something in my belly to suck up
the alcohol. And then I would drink my diet

(13:09):
such a barfly at the bar every night.
And then my 30s, I sorted to getmy shit together a little bit
more. I realized that I was never, I
worked like menial jobs. I was fired from a million jobs.
And then in my 30s, I started toget a little bit more serious
about work. And then I was able to say like,
OK, I'm going to do this on the weekends, you know, And then,

(13:30):
but eventually I always sort of drifted back to that, to those
same patterns where I was drinking daily.
I was drinking earlier during the day.
And then but I was still, I likemy career progressed.
I moved a bunch of times. I got into a serious
relationship and then COVID hit.And then when COVID hit, I was

(13:51):
laid off from my job. I was a reporter at A, at a
newspaper in Seattle and I got laid off really like at the very
beginning of COVID. And so I was just home.
My wife is a nurse and so she was gone all the time.
And I was just at home by myself.
And what started out is like, you know, I'll just drink in the
afternoon, drink in the evenings, drink in the

(14:11):
afternoon. Scratchy was like, all right,
I'm drinking at I'm drinking at 11.
I'm drinking at 10. I'm drinking at 9.
And this was totally in secret. My wife had no idea.
I actually got sober in secret as well.
So like a very dark, shameful time.
But yeah, it became, it became like a full, a full time

(14:31):
obsession. And that to me is the my
drinking didn't come and go in waves, But over that period of
time, from basically high schooluntil I got sober for the last
time, no matter what my consumption was, I would have
periods of sobriety. But no matter what my
consumption was, the thing that never changed was the obsession,
the mental obsession. I was completely consumed if I,

(14:53):
if I was going to drink, like inperiods of sobriety, I still
thought about drinking all the time.
I probably thought about more because the only thing that
would quiet that voice in my head was drinking.
And then it would only quiet it for a little while and then,
then, then you know, the whole thing starts over again.
Look, one in ten Americans todaystruggle with alcohol use
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(15:15):
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(15:35):
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To get started, text Strength to710710.
Again, that's Strength to 710710and get started on your journey
to finally find freedom from alcohol.
I heard this quote once, like you don't know the power of
something until you try to. I should say you don't know the

(15:56):
power that a hold something has a hold on you until you try to
move away from it. And to that, what I can totally
just relate with. It's like when when I was kind
of adding and flowing with drinking problems and I was more
of the binge variety than the frequency.
Later in life, the frequency kicked up.
The point is, it's like, I remember times where I'd be like
day 28 and I'm talking day 29, day 30.
And even though it's a healthy discipline, if you're trying to

(16:18):
move away, it's still in a way, it's just basically controlling
you because when you're not drinking, you're thinking about
not drinking. And when you're drinking, you're
feeling shame, which is an important word.
So you're you're don't blush, but you're you're an
accomplished journalist. You mentioned very kind of
quickly they're like, oh, I was working as a reporter.
How, even though in your 20s it sounds like you had a pretty,

(16:39):
you know, pretty bad relationship, how are you?
What was your career doing at that time that kind of allows
you to get to that point? So my career, I basically didn't
have a career until I turned 30.And when I turned 30, I was
working at a, at a publishing house, like an, an academic, a
small academic publishing house.And I decided that the real
reason is I basically someone dumped me.

(16:59):
I got broken up with and I was incredibly spiteful.
And the woman at the time who broke up with me, she worked at,
she was a journalist. She works in public radio.
And I've always been a big like NPR fan.
I've always listened to a ton ofNPR.
And I was like, I'm going to, I'm going to fucking if she, if
she can do this, I can do this. And so I went and I took an
unpaid internship in public radio.

(17:21):
I got my first job and I was like, I'm going to, she has a
good career. My career is going to be better.
And I spent the next few years just like completely motivated
by spite completely. And that was the only thing that
worked for me. Now when?
When you met your now life, whenwhen you were first getting to
know each other, did did was sheaware?
She, I had told her that I had ahistory of, of alcohol abuse,

(17:45):
but I, I really didn't drink around her very much.
I got lucky that I met someone who I was so comfortable with
that I didn't need to drink around her.
And so we just didn't have a relationship where that revolved
around, around drinking. And the other thing that really
helped in in that respect was that I also, so for most of my

(18:06):
drinking years, I was a cigarette smoker and I could not
do 1 without the other. The idea of having a drink
without chain smoking cigaretteswas torturous.
And so I would rather not drink then not drink and not smoke, if
that makes sense. Sense.
Like I could not be like I, I could not have a drink without a
cigarette. And she's a nurse and she was
very clear when we got together,like I don't date smokers.

(18:28):
And I was like, OK, well, I'm never going to drink around this
woman because I'm going to want a cigarette.
And I don't want her to know that I'm also smoking.
Not not a particularly healthy. We've been together now for 10
years. She knows all this shit now, but
that actually made it, it made it easier.
And, and because it was just like I had this rule and I've
always sort of been good about imposing rules on myself for

(18:49):
like small amounts of times. And it's not a healthy role.
I don't drink if I can't smoke, But that was my rule.
I just won't drink. And so that made it easy to not
be in that place where I was like drinking, getting loaded
around her because I didn't wantto smoke.
I didn't want to have that craving.
And really our relationship is just like, she's a really
moderate drinker. It's just not an issue for her.

(19:11):
And so it just was alcohol was just really never were part of
our relationship. And she had really no idea that
I started drinking during COVID until like I got sober and then
like waited a year until I had like over a full year sober.
And then I told her like surprise, like I'm, I'm sober,

(19:31):
but also I like was secretly drinking for years behind your
back while you were at work saving people.
But we're still married, struggling.
I remember when I wasn't necessarily in a season of
struggling with alcohol, I used to hear stories of people
sneaking it and lying and going out to the the old like garage
bridge, right hiding it from their spouses and partners.

(19:53):
And I would, I would honestly think in that moment and and
naivety and ignorance, like that's really sad.
I'll never get there. It'll never.
Be me. And I can remember, like I've
heard you use the word compulsion before.
I would not be planning on drinking that day.
And next thing you know it, it almost felt like I was, this is
a little dramatic, but like zombies sleepwalking.
And there was this, this switch.And I remembered I slugged some

(20:17):
ridiculous modern IPA that was like an 8.9%, which, by the way,
I bought for a reason, but it probably was subconsciously.
I chose that one. And then I was like, I don't
want my wife to know. I lift up the recycling thing.
And I stuffed it down. Oh.
Yeah. And I was like, holy shit, here
I am. The compulsion to get there and
then the secrecy and then that snow bolt.
All right, So when and then I want to hear the journey, but

(20:40):
like when when you kind of decided, OK, I need to start
consistently moving in a in a healthier direction.
When was that and how did you goabout it?
So this was about two years intoCOVID and I had no, I was not in
denial about my about my drinking.
My first sort of realization that I had an alcohol problem.
I was in my early 20s and so that's when I first started like

(21:03):
going to a a meetings and tryingto get control over and I would
go through periods where I woulddo that, but I would always
revert, revert to the mean. I would always go back to the
bar. But my life continued.
I progressed, you know, career, you know, didn't like take off,
but limped along to the point where I was getting jobs.
Relationship was fine. Bought a house sort of all of
his markers of, of I'm a lesbian.

(21:25):
So, so wife and a dog rather than wife and a kid.
But you know, we got the adventure band and all that
shit. So I, so on the service I sort
of had, I had stability, you know, and, but I was still, but
during COVID, I was just like drinking like crazy every day or
not not every day because my wife, I didn't drink when she
was at home. So I would drink when she was at

(21:45):
work or if she like went to the grocery store.
I'd found a couple. So I, I've always been a beer
drinker and I would drink, I would go down to the store, I
would walk down to the corner store by my house.
This and different ones always. So like typically I would get, I
would get a six pack of tall boys.
So that's, you know, the 24 oz beer.

(22:06):
So and I would drink on a full day, I would drink six of them
and sometimes more. So just like a huge amount of
liquid, just so much liquid. I've always preferred kind of
low alcohol beers. Like I've never liked Ipas.
I like shitty loggers. And part of the reason is
because I could drink longer. If I have an 8 oz high gravity

(22:28):
IPA, I'm having one or two and then I'm hitting the deck.
If I have a beer that's, you know, less than 4% alcohol, I
can drink all day on that. And that's what I wanted.
I wanted to drink all day. And so, so I would do that.
You know, my wife would be gone for 12 hours and I would drink
for not 12 hours. I would, you know, I'd wake up
and like go for a walk, maybe eat something.

(22:49):
But I would start drinking in the afternoon.
And like you, it was like every day I would wake up and say, I'm
not doing this. It was like my body and like my
brain was saying don't do it, don't do it.
My body is like we're gone, we're going to the store.
And then I, so I had this like routine where I would go to the
store, I would get, I would get my 6 pack.
I would come home, I would startstart drinking and chain smoking

(23:09):
and smoking weed at the same time.
And I would sit on my deck and do that all day long.
And then my wife, so she commuted into Seattle.
So she, she was never going to like, surprise me at home
because there's a ferry. She has to take a ferry to work.
And the ferry schedule is regimented.
So I knew when she was going to be home.
And so I would drink until she got off of work.

(23:31):
And then I shower, you know, clean the house really quick and
just put on my sober face. And she never had any idea for
two years that she was coming home to a loaded spouse.
And then, you know, when we, we like eat dinner, watch TVI pass
out on the couch and then go to bed, wake up at 3:00 in the
morning, just shame, so much shame, like knowing that I'm

(23:54):
killing myself, but completely unable to change it.
And so I did that for for two years.
And I knew that this was going to like it had gotten to the
point where I had to do something and I knew that the my
option. And this was during COVID and
Washington state was very lockeddown South.
They're like Zoom a a meetings, but the AAI live in a small

(24:16):
town. A lot of the AA meetings in my,
in my town were they were like in person meetings.
They were cancelled right away. And then they just, the group
just sort of died. And then so I did some zoom
meetings and shit like that in various different places, but it
never really, really, really I couldn't stick with it.
It didn't make me, especially because I was at home, you know,
So it's like I'm doing a Zoom meeting and there's like a beer

(24:37):
like right there. Like there's no incident, you
know, but I knew that it was like, here are my options,
rehab, AA or something else. And rehab wasn't a real option
because super fucking expensive.And also, if I went to, if I
went to inpatient rehab, my wifeis going to notice and
everybody's going to know like Iwas, I was at the time I had

(25:00):
started a podcast and like I couldn't, I couldn't just take
and I was like, this was my job now and I couldn't just
disappear for 28 days. It just like didn't work.
And also I didn't want to quit drinking.
So that was the other like main barrier was that I really didn't
want to stop. I wanted to stop, but I didn't
want to stop, you know, So I, I,I had years before this, I had

(25:21):
read an article in the Atlantic called, it was, the title
doesn't actually tell you what it's about.
The, the title was something about like the statistics of an
A, a or something like that. But what I took from the article
was that there was this other way to get sober or to get
control over your drinking called the Sinclair Method.
And I had, I had actually tried it.

(25:42):
So after I read the article, I went and I got a prescription
for naltrexone. So I assume most of your
listeners are aware of how it works.
But for anybody who isn't, the Sinclair Method is medicated
medication assisted treatment that does not require
abstinence. So you take this drug,
naltrexone, it's an opioid blocker.

(26:02):
It blocks endorphins. So they'll like rush the
euphoria that you get from alcohol, it blocks that.
So you take the pill, you wait one hour for a metabolite to for
it to metabolize and then you drink on the pill.
And that to me sounded fucking perfect, right?
I could literally drink like drink my way through recovery.
It sounded too good to be true. So, so a couple years, so years

(26:25):
before COVID, this was in maybe like 2018.
I had got, I got a prescription for the pill and I, I got off
work one day went and picked up a tall boy, went home, took half
a pill, started at 25 milligrams, took the pill and
just felt horrible, horrible like nausea, headache,

(26:46):
depression, just like did not, did not work for me.
So I took the so I thought, you know what?
Great. So I thought like this is going
to, I thought this was a, after reading the article, I thought
like a miracle pill. I just need this.
And then I took it one time and I was like, fuck, this is not
going to work for me. I'm way too sick.
And so I, I put it in the like the back of my medicine cabinet

(27:06):
and it sat there for four years.I just never, you know, I just
never took it again. And it was always there.
I knew that I had it, but I justwas like this, it made me feel
like shit, I'm not going to do it.
And then during COVID, it was like, OK, this is going to kill
me. I, I looked terrible, like
bloated. I looked like, I look back at
pictures from that time and I'm like, I can tell in my eyes like
this was in the dark days. So in 2022, I got to the point

(27:31):
where it was like, all right, I have one more, one more shot at
this. And if this doesn't work, I'm
going to have to come clean. I'm going to have to tell my
wife. I'm going to have to tell my
family what I've been doing. I've been keeping this secret
forever. And I just got to try this one
thing. And I did.
And I like, I started out this time.
I didn't take a half a pill. I took a quarter pill.

(27:53):
I ate, I, there's all these Facebook groups for people doing
this in Claire method. And I had, I like binged on
these groups to try to learn everything that I could watch
YouTube videos, I interviewed people.
And so I started out with a quarter of a pill.
I took it on a full stomach witha full glass of water and I
still got a little bit of side effects, but they just weren't
as bad. And that was the beginning for

(28:15):
me was that that first time. And I still, I think I still
drank 6 beers that day. Maybe not tall boys like normal
sized beers, but that was it. You know, that was kind of the
beginning. And I spent the next about 8
months, like almost like I was training for a marathon, but the
marathon was involved drinking and, and gradually over 8

(28:39):
months, I, I literally drank myself sober.
It changed my life. It saved my life.
It changed my life and ways. And I did this totally in
secret. I didn't tell me what was going
on. And then, and then I had like a
full year of sobriety and I, I finally came maybe even 2 years.
It took a while. I told my wife at some point.
She she she doesn't tell. When you're already out of it,
you're like, hey, just so you know, I just went through some
shit and I'm here for it. I just want and she would have

(29:02):
been totally supportive. She's a much better person than
I am. Like she's not the type to like
cut and run because someone is having a problem, but I needed
to solve the problem before I went to her and fessed up.
And then eventually I just the thing that's so different about
the medication. I'm curious to hear if this is
your experience as well. Is that the thing I really

(29:24):
feared was that little that compulsion was never getting rid
of that voice in my head that was always screaming at me to
drink. And the medication silenced the
compulsion. And so once I was sober, I
didn't think about alcohol anymore.
Look, life can be hard and stressful sometimes, we all know
that. But when it comes to

(29:45):
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(30:28):
your first order and get startedtoday.
So I jumped into what is, I guess you'd call it the daily
method. That's what we're originally as
a proponent of. And I know that they're kind of
moving towards embracing either method.
But for me, I had side effects as well and that it caused me to
put it down twice. I eat all the time, so I
probably had a full stomach. I didn't, I didn't think

(30:48):
intentionally to eat with it, which I know you're supposed to
do, but I'll say this. But why I put it down the first
time is I felt I, I can't find words for it, but I felt off.
My kids were talking to me and Ijust was like wasn't able to
focus. And I was, I started worrying
and I researched it and it debunked my concerns.
Like I started worrying that those same opioid receptors that
the drug is actively working on the block the endorphins.

(31:10):
I started worrying like, oh, is it also blocking other like
experiences that are causing endorphins like healthy things
like hugs and stuff. So I started to some concerns.
I just didn't like feeling off. But when I eventually came
around to it, I can remember, I mean, I'll never forget the the
first time I took took 25 milligrams as well.
So half a half a pill and I normally like my to use a

(31:31):
buzzword. I guess like my triggering time
where I would be triggered is when I was like wrapping up a
busy day of work and I had no space to transition to when I
was over stimulated by kids and voices and sounds and neediness.
And then it goes to like dinner and all these other things.
And I would just feel this regulated and that's when I
would just how you put it. I loved it like my body was

(31:52):
like, go grab that beard. I don't know.
And around dinner time is the only when I would have like my
first like heavy drink. But I remember the I think it
was the second day I took naltrexone.
I remember when I sat down, I already had one drink and when I
sat down at the table when, and you know this, when a drink is
half empty, you're already kind of like thinking about the next
one. I'll never forget.
It was just like the loudest quiet moment ever.

(32:12):
I sat there and had this realization where I was just
like, I don't really care. And it was noticeable to me.
There is definitely something tothis.
At that time I didn't have, I didn't have a porch routine.
I had like a night routine and it wasn't every night, you know.
So I think for me, it wasn't like, I guess it wasn't as big a
leap to go from where I was to where I wanted to be.
And then I found out about TSM later on.

(32:33):
I'm curious as someone who's done both, I'm curious to to
hear how your experiences, how daily very what's the difference
for you in terms of daily versusTSM?
So some of it's very probably unique to me.
There's something about I don't want this language sucks.
That's the only thing I think ofhaving to take something every
day, all the time I don't like. And I'm like, that pattern is in

(32:55):
my life all over the place. I just like the idea that I can
just be like thoughtful and strategic.
I found that between the two they both work, so why not?
Yeah, take it less. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes a lot
of sense. I mean, I still at the end, I
don't like the way now tracks onmakes me feel.
And that was part of the part ofeventually after like like 8
months, I did 30 days and then once the 30 days were ever, I

(33:19):
just never started drinking again.
But that idea I got to the pointwhere it's like weighing the
cost benefit of like, I want to have a drink.
I don't really want to take the pill because the pill kind of
makes me feel like shit. And so for me, I think even if
even once the physical side effects has worn off, it's an
endorphin blocker. It doesn't like try having sex
on naltrexone. I was so immersed in TSM circles

(33:44):
that it didn't, it really took starting the process of writing
the book and doing a lot of research before I realized that
daily is a legitimate way to take it.
Because in some specifically like online, there's a lot of
Facebook groups for TSM. And in those groups you will
frequently see people say daily doesn't work.
If people are doing it daily, they're doing it wrong.

(34:05):
And I, I internalized that I thought the reason that this is,
isn't more well known, it's because doctors are prescribing
it wrong. And it took talking to Joe Vo
Bocelli at Penn who's who's likethe godfather of naltrexone and
doing a lot of talking to a lot of clinicians and people like

(34:26):
Claudia and Katie Lane, who are more TSM focused, but are
really, really knowledgeable about this, about this issue to
realize like you don't have to be dogmatic about this.
Daily works better for some people.
TSM works better for some people.
Vivitrol works better for some people.
For some people, what works is they might not have a problem in

(34:48):
general, like daily life is normal, don't have a compulsion,
but they get way too loaded on vacation.
So just taking naltrexone when they're on vacation.
And for some people, all of it combined works best.
So you take daily and then you take a double dose before the
office Christmas party or whatever.
And all of that is completely valid.
And what I find so interesting about about this is like, there

(35:10):
have been a fuck ton of studies on naltrexone, but the studies
don't really reflect the vast array of experiences that people
have on this. So you can get better
information on how to take this drug on the Internet than you
can from your doctor. There's like so few things in
the world, baby. Like, you want good medical

(35:31):
information, go to Reddit. You know, I'm not that.
I'm not that person, but that's actually true in this case.
And I mean, and now there are groups like or there, there are
companies like or, and, and coaching services.
And you can get so much information and good information
from people that you don't need to Crowdsource it entirely on
your own. You can pay somebody to tell you

(35:51):
how to do it. I highly recommend people do
this. There's many resources.
Totally, totally worth it. But yeah, you just go to your
family physician, probably not going to know that much about
this. Yeah, and I think it's really
cool about like our stories, like I feel like there's there's
a lot of commonality there, but I think it's so cool using
different vehicles. We're both advocating for the

(36:12):
same thing, which is people to get more aware of those
different options that are out there.
But like what I'm encouraged about is I'm sensing and I know
that you're you're probably morein the treachers informed on
this, but even some of like recent administration picks,
there are people that have a connection to, you know,
substance use, alcohol use, and I'm hearing the word holistic
health. I'm just I'm just like sensing.

(36:32):
It's just an instinct, but that there is towards more awareness
on just different avenues for this type of thing.
Yeah, I'm not super optimistic about anything coming out at the
federal level for very, for many, many reasons we don't
necessarily need to get into but, but I do think there's been
a, there has been a sea change in terms of this idea that the

(36:53):
only way forward is, is through 12 steps and total abstinence.
And what you do is you go to rehab and then you start going
to A and you do that every day for 90 many days.
And then you just never drink again.
And, and part of the reason is not because of alcohol, but it's
because of the opioid crisis, because the term medicated
medication assisted treatment isnow something that that all

(37:14):
providers know about because they know that fentanyl and
heroin is not really something that you can white knuckle your
way through. Some people do, a small number
of people do, but it's much morethe gold standard of treatment
is Suboxone. And there are all sorts of
access issues in terms of getting getting treatment like
this. But there has been a change
because I think the medical establishment has realized like

(37:37):
we need to look at medications and alcohol use disorder kills
more people than any other substance on earth.
We need to look at this. And one thing that has really
changed as well is medical education.
So when I would go to doctors until like recently, most of my

(37:58):
doctors, you know, are they're probably went to Med school in
the 80s or 90s, maybe the 70s, maybe earlier.
And their their entire educationabout addiction, all substances
might have been what's anyone a meeting.
That's it. And that's changed, but it's
only changed. And like this new upcoming

(38:18):
generation of doctors. And so now everyone who goes to
Med school in their psych rotation, they're going to learn
about naltrexone, Camperol and abuse.
They're going to learn about these about both the FDA
approved medications for alcoholuse disorder and medication
assisted treatment for for otherother substance abuse issues.

(38:40):
Is it a perfect system? No, this is, there should be a,
you know, a focus in family medicine, in emergency medicine.
And instead, what's happening isin most places, they're getting
a like, basically like a short, like a primer and in their psych
rotation. And that's not enough.
Like every doctor, especially like emergency and family

(39:02):
doctors should be required to really understand, you know,
evaluating, evaluating their patients for alcohol use
disorder and treating them and that I don't think we're there
yet, but we're getting there. Yeah.
Something something I didn't mention.
You couldn't possibly know aboutme, though, but I'm a COO of a
federally qualified Health Center.
One of the reasons I'm encouraged to be on the front

(39:24):
lines of that is I'm aware that there's federal grants that will
support community health centerssuch as ours that work really
hard to integrate the behavioralhealth clinician on the floor of
the primary care. And right now, as we're
literally educating our primary care team to screen and ask
certain questions and then embedding A behavioral health
clinician on the floor so that physician can walk out of their
office while the patient is still there to a consult with

(39:46):
their behavioral health clinician, have them walk in.
And those questions are such like how frequently do you drink
alcohol? Tie that to the depression.
So I, I know that there's a movement and there's also grant
opportunities to support that. So that integrated model I hope
is the way of the future. I really do.
Yeah, I think, I think this conversation will be so
different in 10 or 20 years. And you know, Ozempic like

(40:06):
people love that they love that they love, they love the idea of
taking a pill and and or a shot or whatever and having it solve
their problems. This is a very American solution
that can be problematic. You know, I think, you know, one
of my positions that I think like, I think I don't think that
ADHD is fake, but I think that it's like way, way over
diagnosed. I think that throwing, throwing

(40:28):
medications at at every problem is it can lead to its own issues
or whatever. But this one, you know, it's not
there's like immediate side effects, but there's so few like
long term side effects of a druglike naltrexone and it's so
cheap and so easy to get that tome it just seems like a no
brainer. This is something that every
clinician should be aware of. I know I'm with you and well

(40:48):
said. By the way, Ozempic it's funny,
our chief medical officer let meknow that Yerbamate is like the
Ozempic of fat loss. Interesting.
You know, I drink, I drink a quite a bit of yerbamate.
Maybe I should increase that. Although you got to watch out, I
think it can be bad for your kidneys.
Deniz and my dentist told me youcan stay in your teeth.
All right, So Sinclair meth and work wonders for you.

(41:09):
You haven't drank in a while. You don't take it anymore.
You don't want to tell you. So let's talk about your book.
But what else? Like what else have you learned
in this journey when you startedwriting the book?
Like some research, some interesting facts?
Let's talk about the book as well, because I'm super excited
about it. I learned quite a bit about the
process of getting naltrexone approved.
Why it was why it's not something that everybody knows

(41:32):
about, including doctors, which was fairly interesting.
I talked to a guy named Percy Menzies, who he now he, he runs
a, a treatment center, but he was a drug Rep for DuPont and
DuPont was one of the first companies to, they held, they
held a patent on naltrexone for a long time.
And he was explaining to me why,why Naltrexan sort of never took

(41:53):
off. So Percy, so in the, I think
this was in the 70s, it was, it was developed to treat not
alcohol use disorder, but but heroin and morphine addiction.
And it was the first FDA approved non addicting and non
psychoactive substance to treat,to treat opioid addiction.
And so Percy told me that, you know, as a drug Rep, he would go

(42:15):
into these clinics like he can absolutely convinced that this
drug was the future. And it has one real benefit over
a drug like like methadone or Suboxone, and that's it doesn't
fuck you up. So if you're a doctor or a pilot
or a nurse, you can't really do your job.
If you're taking methadone, a drug that's going to get you a

(42:38):
like just a little bit high, like it's psychoactive.
I don't know if it's actually it's, it's mind altering in some
particular way. Now, Tristan isn't like that.
So so DuPont, the guys at DuPontthought this is the future.
And so Percy explained that he would go to these, go to these
clinics and but methadone had really cornered the market, the
market. And so they just thought, no,
we've got this other drug. So, so that was his sort of

(43:00):
explanation for why naltrexone never took off.
And then it was FDA approved later and I believe 1994 for use
for alcohol use disorder. And same thing Percy would go to
these trying to sell this drug and got nowhere.
And he said this time it was because the rehab industrial

(43:23):
complex groups like Betty Ford and and Hazelden were so anti
the use of medication because they, they thought they knew
what was best. And what was best was 28 days
stay rehab AA12 steps. And that's, that's his
explanation. I think there's, there's other
structural stuff, you know, I mean, the, the patent for

(43:46):
naltrexone expired a long time ago.
So it's really cheap. That's probably another reason
that there's just like no company has the incentive to
market it because the drug company down the street could
undercut them. So there's all it's, it's sort
of ironic like the thing that makes naltrexone really
inexpensive is also one of the things that has kept it from

(44:07):
being from being marketed and the way that a drug glycosympic
would would be. And that's why I'm grateful that
there's people like you from companies that are, that are out
there because it still has an impact or could have an impact
on millions of people. Yeah, yeah.
I really, I mean, it could save so many lives and it's not, you
know, it's not, it's not going to work for everyone.
I mean, one of the, I spent a lot of time talking to Joe

(44:28):
Bocelli and so Joe explained to me that there's basically two
types of drinkers, reward drinkers and relief drinkers and
reward drinkers. And I'm, I would bet my life on
you being one. Reward drinkers are people who
get that euphoria, the buzz, thehigh from alcohol, they get
energized from drinking, right? Naltrexone works really well and

(44:51):
binge drinkers tend to be rewarddrinkers.
Naltrexone works really well forthat population, for relief
drinkers, people who get a sedating effect, it doesn't
work. And there are other drugs you
can take that might, that might target that population.
Are there other drugs that that might be more appropriate for
that population? And, and to complicate them,

(45:12):
because nothing, nothing is likecleanly divided into like two
groups. Some people are both.
But knowing what sort of sort ofinspecting your own behavior,
asking yourself, what do I get? What happens when I drink?
Do I get buzzed or do I go, do Iget sort of tired?
Do I get sedate? That can also be, I think,
helpful in terms of people evaluating whether it's

(45:33):
appropriate for them or if they're taking, it's not
working. That could be why I.
Have one more question for you? Drink your way sober.
The science based methods break free from alcohol releasing in
September. What is your greatest hope by
releasing this book? My greatest hope, I wanted to
sell 10 million copies. I've been so I'm not, I'm not a

(45:55):
woo girl. I'm not big into like
manifesting, but I have been. I'm I'm I feel like I'm like
taking my walk, my dog for a walk and I'm like, I'm putting
it on the universe 10 million bucks.
But then I get worried that like, the universe is going to
misinterpret this and they're going to send me 10 million
bucks, which I don't want, but Iwant it to be.
I want it to not just because I want to like have it like buy a

(46:16):
jet ski, but like, I, I want this book to, to save people's
lives. And I think, you know, I think
if enough people read it, it can.
Yeah, Amen, Stan Pack. They want to make a difference.
I love it. And I want to I want to jet ski.
Yeah, too. Both.
Both ends. Let's go.
Yeah. Sorry, Kate.
It's an awesome pleasure. I'm so glad you joined.
Thank you. Please spend some time with me.

(46:37):
Today, Yeah, it's good to talk to you.
Thanks for having me. All right everybody, that's the
show. Folks.
Thank you so much for tuning into the Silver Strength Podcast
and spending some time with us today.
We've got a favor to ask. If you enjoyed the show, would
you please consider subscribing to the show and even leaving a
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(46:58):
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(47:21):
and live deep.

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Can You Drink Your Way Sober? | Katie Herzog, Author, Journalist, & Host of Blocked and Reported

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Can You Drink Your Way Sober? | Katie Herzog, Author, Journalist, & Host of Blocked and Reported