February 4, 2025 • 37 mins
Dan Balcauski speaks with Dean Guida, founder of Infragistics, about his journey from Wall Street side project to a global leader in UX development tools and his latest venture, Slingshot. They discuss key transformative moments, the principles behind sustainable tech companies, and the critical importance of culture in scaling businesses. Dean shares insights from his recent book 'When Grit is Not Enough' and explores the challenges of change management, the role of data in driving business outcomes, and the intricacies of implementing OKRs. This episode is essential for understanding the balance of grit, collaboration, and strategic execution needed to build and scale successful SaaS companies.
00:58 Dean Guida's Entrepreneurial Journey
02:41 Infragistics: A Multi-Faceted Company
04:14 Insights from 'When Grit is Not Enough'
06:27 Building a Resilient Company
13:04 The Importance of Culture in Business
19:29 Maintaining Company Culture Across Regions
20:22 The Role of Leadership in Culture
21:06 Effective Communication and Storytelling
23:24 Implementing OKRs Successfully
28:11 Introducing Slingshot: A New Direction
33:00 Challenges of Organizational Tools
Guest Links
Company website: www.infragistics.com
Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/infragistics/
Company Twitter: @Infragistics
Personal website: https://www.deanguida.com/
Personal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deanguida/
Dean’s book, When Grit is not Enough
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
dan balcauski (00:20):
Welcome to SaaS Scaling Secrets, the podcast
that brings you the insidestories from the leaders of the
best scale up, B2B SaaScompanies.
I'm your host, Dan Balcauski,founder of Product Tranquility.
Today I'm excited to speak withDean Guida.
Dean founded Infragistics in1989, building it from a side
project while working in WallStreet into a global leader in
UX development tools.
Over 35 years, he's grown thecompany to serve a hundred
percent of the s and p 500 morethan 2 million software
(00:43):
engineers using their products.
Most recently, Dean launchedSlingshot, a work management
platform and released a book inearly 2024 when Grit is not
enough, detailing his insightsand building sustainable tech
companies.
Let's dive in.
Welcome Dean to SaaS ScalingSecrets.
dean guida (00:56):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
dan balcauski (00:58):
I'm excited for our conversation today, Dean, I
wanna start a little bit on thepersonal.
I know you have had a longjourney in your career, but
there are different moments thatstand out that transform us.
I like to think of them assuperhero transformation
moments.
You're Peter Parker, normal highschool student.
You get bit by a radioactivespider.
You go to bed, you wake up,you're Spider-Man.
(01:18):
What moment was that for you inyour journey?
dean guida (01:22):
there's probably a couple of moments.
One, one was in eighth grade, Iattended this course that talked
about entrepreneurs in America,and I just like, loved hearing
about how they created somethingnew.
We're very engineering andscientific oriented and created
a whole industry and a lot ofvalue for themselves, the
company and the whole market.
So that was reallyinspirational.
(01:44):
And then in business there was apivotal moment where we were
finding ourselves with a 580,000a month expense structure and
having$618 in the bank.
And so we were kind of legallybankrupt and, it makes you
realize, I never wannaexperience that again.
So you really start to put inbetter processes expand the
(02:07):
expand the burden, basicallydelegation and leadership and
and build a team and not justlike, work 24 7, don't take a
paycheck, don't take your ownpaycheck.
That doesn't, that never whenyou get to a certain size that
doesn't fix things.
And so that was a big moment.
We survived obviously, but wedidn't have to survive.
dan balcauski (02:25):
Well, I love both of those moments.
And for those of you out therenever too early to introduce
your children to the world ofentrepreneurship, as we heard in
the first snip that you gavethere.
Both I'm sure very powerfulmoments.
And we may that they may be acommon thread throughout our
conversation.
We'll see where it goes beforewe get further in.
I gave a little bit of an introabout infragistics in the.
Beginning of the episode, butcould you just give your take on
(02:48):
the 32nd overview of whatinfragistics is?
dean guida (02:51):
Yeah, I mean, we're really four companies now.
We UI UX tools that we sell toour biggest markets, ISVs, other
software companies, and then andthen to the enterprise really
excel across all verticals.
But that's been the foundingproduct.
But now we also have RevealEmbed, which is a analytics
dashboarding engine that we sellto other SaaS companies.
(03:12):
We have App builder that's forpro devs, that's a low code tool
to produce applications.
And you can go from design tocode very quickly if you're, you
have a design team and andSlingshot, which we've been
running the company off of forsix years, we're really excited
by it.
It's a, an AI data-driven workmanagement tool that really
drives have your objectives andkey actions go to market, get
(03:35):
the signals from across all yourbusiness systems.
Telling you what's happening,and usually things don't go
well.
So then collaborate with yourteam, with your signals that
the, from yours, your sales andmarketing and finance systems,
and come up with experiments to,in a systematic way, drive
better business outcomes.
So, that we're a global companyand we have a, pretty big
(03:56):
customer base and, but we're nowseparated into four companies.
dan balcauski (04:00):
We've got a lot of space and market different
markets that you play in.
But all related to differentsoftware products help, it
sounds like common theme throughit helping software engineers,
ux, UI designers do their jobsbetter day in, day out.
I wanna talk a, at the beginningof this part, of this
conversation about your book.
your book is titled, when Gritis Not Enough That You released?
(04:22):
Early in 2024, I guess, with somany business books out there.
What was your hope for addingthis one into the mix?
dean guida (04:29):
Well.
I think my hope was that after35 years, I wanted to share how
with other entrepreneurs toincrease their chances of
success.
And so I didn't find there wasone book out there capturing a
lot of things I've learned.
So, and I try to be succinct.
So you can read a book aroundstrategy, blue Ocean, or and,
(04:50):
you read, you get a couple ofgood tidbits and then you have
to spend 200 pages on.
Case studies.
And so I was kind of moresuccinct and action oriented
and, but I cover everything fromgo to market planning strategy
to creating trust beingdata-driven, the scientific
method of business outcomes,coaching, hiring.
(05:10):
And so really my goal was justto share all this experience to
help other entrepreneurs.
I wish I would've had it andinto winning.
And then the title, I'm sorry.
The title.
So every entrepreneur has tohave grit and every entrepreneur
has to be like, very optimistic.
'cause otherwise you're younever do what we do.
It's like, it's, there's so muchpain, of course, so much fun and
(05:33):
happiness too.
But it's a rough road.
And so, grit, we all know gritis, you just stay focused on a
long-term objective with all theups and downs and see it
through.
And so when grit's not enough,yes, you need grit, you need
optimism, but then now you needto get to the next level and
build out good teams, culture,company, and good.
Go-to market processes.
dan balcauski (05:55):
And yeah, so I you've a couple points there.
You've definitely read a lot ofbusiness books because I
completely agree.
You get the first chapter wherethey introduce the concept and
then you've got 20 more chaptersof case studies and you're like,
I think I get the point already.
This could have been onechapter.
So, I appreciate you putting itin one handy guide for everyone.
Was there a specific moment inyour life that sort of, made
(06:20):
that concept of when grit is notenough, like super concrete for
you that made it made youchallenge that common narrative?
dean guida (06:27):
Yeah, I mean, I shared that one story where we
were pretty much outta cash andhad to come up with$580,000.
That, that, that was a definingmoment.
There there was many othermoments.
When you're 10 people, whenyou're smaller, like you cannot
take salary, you can work harderand you can impact things, but
that doesn't create a scalable,resilient company.
(06:50):
And so, over time throughreading a lot of books having
coaches, taking a lot ofseminars and just having this
very, which we all have asentrepreneurs this open-minded
growth mindset.
Keep learning, keep improving.
These are just importantlessons, in the book that that
you need to execute on to have asustainable business.
And so, I think all through lifeyou keep getting knocked down
(07:12):
and trial and error.
And I think, and that's wheregrit comes in, that you get back
up and get back in the game.
But but building a resilientcompany and culture and team is
is critical to long-termsuccess.
dan balcauski (07:25):
Well, you do cover quite a bit of topics
that, potentially listeners ofour podcast will be.
Aware of things like OKRs andpsychological safety and
building trust in teams.
I'm curious, like has it couldbe those or anything el else
that you've adopted as you'vegrown, infragistics over the
years, has there been conceptsor these type of business
(07:48):
frameworks or advice that youinitially sort of resisted but
eventually sort of saw thepromise after it ended up
embracing over time.
dean guida (07:56):
Yeah, there was.
So first of all, I love peopleand like people and people's the
most important thing.
But I went I went to this placecalled Center for Creative
Leadership and they hadpsychologically interviewed me.
They interviewed my wife, theyinterviewed my team.
And I scored on a score of oneto five, five being the best, a
(08:16):
two for caring about people.
And I was like, heartbroken.
I'm like, that's impossible.
Like I care about people.
And so what happened was I wentto the, I went to the center and
I learned that like I just wasso focused on getting work done
that I didn't createrelationships with people.
I was just very, just verydriven and I missed the whole
(08:37):
part of connecting with peopleand creating the relationship.
And so, that was a big lesson.
But at that Center for CreativeLeadership which is an amazing
program, I learned anotherthing, which was the first day.
So they put you on these teamsand they, first of all,
psychology is so scary.
They know everything about you.
They and what they did, the waythey made you learn was they put
(08:59):
you.
You learn through experientiallearning.
So they put you in these badsituations to pull out all your
bad habits and all yourstrengths.
And as we learn and know, likeyour strengths can also be your
weaknesses.
So the first day they had menext to this girl and it just
happened to be a girl, but shewas like crazy cuckoo.
And I was like, oh my God, Ihope she's not on my team.
I hope she's not on my team.
(09:20):
Well, what do you think?
She's on my first team.
'cause they put you in theseteam settings and.
We had to throw this ball aroundand and tell a great team
experience.
And so we're throwing the ballaround and then they told us,
okay, in the order you threw theball around you need to do it
under a minute.
So there was like, 10 teams of10.
And so we're like, oh my God,under a minute there's too many
(09:41):
people throwing the ball around.
And then they put pressure onyou.
Like, what's wrong with youguys?
Like, everyone else is done.
What's wrong?
What's wrong with you guys?
And we're like, oh, crap.
And then this girl.
Came up with this great idea.
She goes, well, let's get outtathis circle and let's just stand
in the order that we threw theball around randomly and we
ended up putting our handstogether like this.
And we did it in seconds.
We rolled the ball down there.
(10:02):
So one of the big, that was abig learning for me, which was I
always hired people that thoughtlike me, talked like me, and
guess what?
Harm harmonious team, we alwaysgot along and it was easy to
manage, but we always solved theproblem the same way.
And so like.
I learned that you have to havediversity of thinking.
You need to have differentpeople.
Don't hire everyone like youbecause then you'll come up with
(10:24):
way better ideas.
So someone that thinks differentwill make a right turn.
Then you can build on thatsolution.
Now it's harder to manage andrun teams with diversity of
thinking because you don'talways agree you have conflict.
But if you're into solvingproblems the best way and being
creative, it's amazing.
dan balcauski (10:41):
That's like a great story.
And yeah, even going backearlier in your story about
getting that feedback some ofthose three sixties or
assessments you get when you've,especially as you've advanced in
your career, and they can bepretty painful to hear and
they're painful usually'causethey're accurate, right.
dean guida (10:56):
It.
No doubt.
It's very
dan balcauski (10:58):
If they were just totally off base, it wouldn't
make, it wouldn't emotionallyhurt you, but I mean, it was,
you were just like, oh no.
There's that blind spot I've
dean guida (11:05):
you're you're you're first in denial.
But then if you're true toyourself, well, first of all,
you get curious like, what, howcould that be possible?
And then you learn how it'spossible.
And that led into like our wholecoaching process that, you need
people to give you feedback andso that you can uncover those
blind spots.
And and even if you don't agreewith the feedback you're
getting, like still it's aperception that people feel that
(11:26):
way.
So why not improve it and workat that?
And so, coaching's a huge thingwe believe in too.
Always work on improving bothsoft and, hard skills and be
real focused at continuedlearning.
you know, individually.
dan balcauski (11:41):
Well, I'm intrigued by, the, depth and
length of your experience in thesoftware industry.
I guess as you look today at theSaaS landscape, what do you see
as sort of the most commonmisconception about what it
takes to build a elasticsoftware company?
dean guida (11:57):
Well, I think everyone knows this so hard
'cause it is really hard.
I, it comes, there's a couplethings.
You definitely need to havecompetitive advantage and value,
clear value of the market.
And it is true.
You have to find product marketfit.
It's not easy, it's not obvious.
You could do all the researchand analysis in the world, but
until you go and.
Start selling something andasking for money and winning
(12:19):
over competitors and getting toa point where you can have a
repeatable process where youdon't have to have like a super
sales person or the CEO doingevery sale.
That, that, that's critical.
And so, creating a greatsoftware company starts with a
good idea and a competitiveadvantage for sure.
Clearly articulating that.
And then it's all about thepeople building your team,
(12:40):
sales, marketing, engineering.
Design.
I mean, you just need a greatteam to execute and and then
create a culture that's, end upbeing curious and problem
solving and and staying focusedon quality and not just time to
market.
And so there, there's, are theseother elements as well, but it's
it's people, it's competitiveadvantage and and then it's,
(13:00):
find a product market fitbecause that is a hard thing to
do.
dan balcauski (13:04):
Well, and you, in your book you talk a lot about
building culture, but alsomention that, a lot of leaders
fail at, the idea of eventhinking about culture'cause
it's fluffy.
Like how do you think aboutmaking it more tangible for
folks?
dean guida (13:18):
Yeah I used to be a freelance consultant.
I wrote software down on WallStreet at IBM and I.
Not that IBM was a bad culture,but I just saw a lot of bad
cultures and I, so even beforestarting my company, I knew I
wanted to intentionally have agreat culture and culture's
actually simple.
It's like.
People you work with, enjoyworking with you, enjoy problem
(13:40):
solving and building with youand going to market with you.
I mean, and then people stay.
And how do you attract reallygood people and keep'em for a
long time?
Some of the joyful things I haveis I, we have some geniuses
working for us for 20 years, 15years, and they can work
anywhere.
And so being intentional aboutbuilding a culture as it starts
with hiring, look for growthminded people.
(14:02):
What did you know, questionslike, what did you read in the
last six months?
What.
What, what do you wanna know andlearn over the next year?
People that are really intolearning and expanding and being
open to that.
And then, so soft skills are soimportant that you hire for
people that fit your cultureitself.
And and you share that even inyour, how you're posting and
(14:22):
what it's like to work with youand what you're working on.
And then it comes to, I mean,there's so much to it, but
creating trust is so important.
So like.
Like we try and I say try'causeit's always a work in process
progress, but, have blamelessproblem solving.
So if you really want people toshare problems, collaborate on
problems, you need to have thatsafety that you talked about
(14:45):
earlier.
That people feel safe aboutasking a question, sharing a
problem, and then asking forhelp and working on problems.
And so intentionally creatingthat problem solving safe,
collaborative, trustingenvironment is key.
And and then I'll just wrap up.
There's a lot more to it, butbeing data-driven helps a lot.
(15:05):
You just have so much moreproductivity when you're
introducing data into theconversations around solving
problems.
dan balcauski (15:14):
I, well, and I'm kind of curious,'cause you'd
mentioned, you'd seen WallStreet and I don't think anybody
would say Wall Street culture isa culture they probably want to
emulate inside their technologyfirms Very Silicon Valley versus
wall Street.
Very different in terms of howthey think about their.
Their, they're people and etcetera.
But you know, I guess was therea, in your mind, was there a
formative experience either atinfragistics or before where you
(15:36):
kind of saw culture, like have anegative impact?
dean guida (15:40):
Well, I'll share a negative and I'll share a
positive, I mean a positive.
So I worked on Wall Street atbanks and insurance companies,
so I worked on product teamsbuilding software.
So it wasn't like the brokerwall, the Wolf of Wall Street
kind of experience.
It was smart people buildingcomplex systems.
So I was at a IG down in 99 JohnStreet.
We had an amazing team.
(16:01):
It was unbelievable.
It was early days like our, theit was a, our, we built a client
service system.
I mean, this was a long timeago.
It was like over 35 plus yearsago.
And we had DB two as ourbackend.
We had data adrenaline laptopsas a front end.
And that team was amazing.
We went on to createinfragistics, part of the team,
and part of the team went on tocreate another product called,
(16:21):
logicworks a database entitymanagement tool, which and so
that was a great experience.
It was just a team that wantedto get things done, wanted to
build quality and collaborate.
Then I worked on anothercompany.
There was like 30 consultants.
There's probably a hundredpeople on the team and everyone
just show up at meetings andtalk and look good.
(16:41):
And meanwhile, like me and twoother people did all the work.
And it was a culture of peoplenot caring, and.
I loved writing software and andso yeah I just didn't like
people just talking and showingup and not really caring about
the work at hand.
dan balcauski (16:57):
So making sure people are really sort of
committed to what the company'sabout.
And I think you I guess you knowwhere that sort of leads me is,
I think like when people thinkabout culture and corporate life
you'll often hear talk about,mission statements or vision
statements, and those can often.
Release a collective groan froma lot of frontline employees who
(17:18):
are like who we're now gettingbaked in some, heavy corporate
jargon.
I guess h how do you thinkabout, like, I, is that a part
of how you think about cultureand like, is there a way to
like, break through that asyou're trying to like really
help the, like, everyone sort ofget behind what the, it's like,
Hey, this is what we're here todo.
So kind of the antithesis ofwhat you're describing.
dean guida (17:37):
Well, you have to be real and true because that's why
people groan about a purpose ora vision statement when it's
just not true.
So, so you have to like be realtruthful in what you're doing.
And so for example, for us, likeI said, we, people stay with us
'cause they like the peoplethey're working with, they like
the products they're working on.
They like they like how we doget things done.
(18:00):
And so there's not labelingpeople, not finger pointing.
Of course we have, we're notperfect and we have all that as
well, but to a lower degree.
So, so like intentionally youtalking about intention, we
build a really beautifulbuilding.
We introduced like, food intomeetings and we supported a lot
of community events and we,like, we'd share monthly share
(18:20):
teach people programming,design.
We shared it.
We shared our, we have thisbeautiful space with the boy
scouts with the high schools.
And so just part of like,sharing and we spent a lot of
money to like make a very warm,relaxed environment.
Introduced food and stuff isjust part of it.
And and then just solving.
Important problems in acollaborative way.
(18:41):
And so people want, they, aculture is like, I enjoy how we
get work done.
I enjoy working with the peoplearound me.
And so it, it comes down tothat, that's what attracts good
people.
They recommend their friends tocome work there.
And and so you're intentionalabout it.
Like at one point we used tohave cubes, but then we had
beautiful offices and then wecared about, everything.
(19:03):
We cared about creating trust.
We cared about managers andexecs that we hired that
wouldn't break our culture.
We cared about who we hired.
And so it's an ongoing workeffort.
And then once you get bigger andyou get regional, every, like
we're in Japan, we're in EasternEurope, we're in Europe, in
London we're in South America.
Like each one then starts tohave their own mini culture.
dan balcauski (19:24):
Mm-hmm.
dean guida (19:25):
can't help that.
But then the overarching cultureof the company needs to kind of
see it through.
So, I mean, leaders have a bigthing to do with it, but then
you have to like communicate theculture you want and like I, I
meet with every new employee andgive'em an onboarding and
sometimes'cause they group'emup, it may be a couple of months
before they, they join thecompany.
They've already been in thecompany a month or two
(19:47):
sometimes.
And I talk about values and theculture we want and I say that.
Because it's up to them, the newhires to, if you like this and
you join us'cause of this, youneed to keep it going.
And what's rewarding is whenthey say, wow, like that is what
I've experienced here.
What I described.
I'm like, okay, well we've gottakeep this thing going and you
(20:07):
own the culture as much as me,so let's keep this thing going.
So it's So culture is real.
It's like how you get work doneand if you just put marketing
spin on it, it's.
It doesn't work.
People see through it and thequality people will leave.
dan balcauski (20:22):
Well, you mentioned something in your last
response there that was kind ofjumped out to me, which is I
think a lot of companies, oncethey hit scale, start to deal
with, which is alright, nowwe're in multiple countries,
multiple time zones.
Like, we used to be 10 people ina room and we'd, be, we'd split
a pizza and like everyone wouldjust, swivel around in their
chairs and Right.
And like now we're.
(20:43):
We're not, we don't see eachother every day.
Right.
And a lot of people, especiallywith covid went hybrid, et
cetera.
I guess, can you talk a littlebit more about like, how you
thought about, like, you talkabout, hey, like there's a,
there's sort of, individualoffice culture, but then the,
the corporate culture has to, bethis, somewhat, coherent as
well.
Are there ways that you'vethought about like,
(21:03):
pragmatically, like helping thatalong?
dean guida (21:06):
Yeah, I mean I I get in front of the company once a
month and I talk about what'shappening in the company.
Um, we have myself and all ourleaders and managers, when you
tell stories, people listen tothat.
When you say, oh, these areobjectives.
But when you tell stories, andthose are those stories which
are real stories, embody thevalues and culture.
(21:27):
You want people listen to that.
And your leaders, you have toknow, everyone's watching you.
Everyone is watching you always,they know everything.
And so, like, know that and andalways, communicate and
physically and emotionally andkeep telling stories and reward
people around stories that, thatare real, but impact the, the
(21:49):
values in your culture you want.
So, so, so that's one way.
Then me getting in front of thecompany once a month is.
Really important.
You know what happens is whenyou have satellite offices,
people make their own narrative,make up their own thing what's
going on, which can have a lifeof its own, which is usually not
good.
And so, and then I write a in,we use slingshots when slingshot
I write a a post once a monthtalking about what's happening
(22:12):
in the company.
And so the, these things helpreinforce it.
But it's not one thing.
It's like a lot of, it's a lotof things that you do.
First you hire, right?
Then you create trust, then youcreate this, problem solving,
curious culture.
Then, and then you you're veryclear about what good and great
is like through a clearobjectives and key actions.
(22:33):
And I mean, it's many thingsthat create a company, a culture
that people enjoy and enjoy tobe part of.
It is not one thing, but itneeds to be intentional,
especially by the CEO founderand leader.
dan balcauski (22:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's a gnarly topic.
And I thought you covered itwell in your book which is why I
thought it would be a usefultopic to help break down because
it's something that you'reright, like people give a
marketing spin to of a, it's,this is what culture is, and
then that's kind of where theguidance is left.
A lot of leaders, you're like,okay, well, I don't know how to
affect that, so I'm gonna go.
(23:08):
Worry about the things I ca Iknow how to actually approach.
But obviously you've beenincredibly successful both, on
the longevity of the company ingeneral as well as, keeping
employees for decades it soundslike at at times.
So, that's no small feat intoday's business world.
For sure.
You did just hint at things likeOKRs, right?
I, and I don't know, there'sprobably not a person who's
listening to this podcast who'snever heard about OKRs and.
(23:32):
Much like mission and visionstatements, they may exhibit an
eye roll because I, there are alot of companies that.
You try implement them,implementing them, and just, it
just goes sideways.
I, there's often a gap between,knowing where Right.
Business practice and actuallyimplementing them effectively, I
guess as you've sort of, adoptedthem, I am assuming from, our
conversation you're actuallyusing something akin to OKRs at
(23:55):
infragistics, I guess whatsurprised you about actually
putting them into practice?
And I guess is there anythingyou've learned for how to like
make them actually very.
Useful in an environment versusjust sort of this?
Oh, yes, we have them.
So I can tell my board this.
We have them.
dean guida (24:10):
Yeah, I mean, I'm a huge fan of OKRs and as Andy
Grove created it the founder ofIntel like in the 1970s.
dan balcauski (24:17):
got high output management on my bookshelf
dean guida (24:19):
yeah, and so the thing about OKRs, it's a simple,
lightweight framework, but it'sactually hard to implement.
And so it took us a couple ofyears to get really good at it.
And what do I mean by that?
Like.
If you just measure activity andnot, they say focus on business
outcome, that's a bad thing.
And so, so just writing goodOKRs is a, is hard to do.
(24:40):
It takes repetition and like,we're all smart people, but it
took us a couple years to getgood at it.
So that's why it's hard.
So if you have it takes time toget good at it.
And then the other, what Ireally like about OKRs is that
or this is how we do it.
You don't have to do it in ahierarchical, cascading way, but
that's what we do.
We create our annual plan.
That supports our three yearstrategy and we created at a
(25:01):
high level, so we're settingobjectives that are measurable.
We're defining prioritization.
'cause you can only really putthree to five key actions to
support that objective, whichmakes you really think about
what is most important toexecute and have priority.
And then typically those can bemeasured.
Sometimes you can't like.
When we first started learningaccount based marketing, like
(25:22):
one, one key result ofdelivering revenue on a BM was
we had to learn a BMI mean, youcan kind of measure it, but you
can't measure it, so, but thatwas a critical action.
We all learn about a BM bestpractices and but what we do is,
so we create this annual planset of OKRs, but then we push it
down to the teams that have toexecute on that.
(25:44):
So that they then will createOKRs based on these high level
objectives of the company.
And then you get that processof, with the team coming up with
the objectives and how you'regonna achieve those objectives
is critical.
'cause you get alignment, youget collaboration, you get
discussion, and and you getintrinsic buy-in to it.
(26:05):
And the other thing you get bypushing it down is you get
innovation.
So like I could set theobjectives of, okay, we're gonna
drive$5 million in new sales.
We're gonna do it throughdigital sales led, product led.
Okay.
That's what I do.
Now, the people that areresponsible for product led that
can have that, okay, we're gonnadeliver a million dollars in
(26:25):
product led as the objective,but what are the key three to
five key actions we could takefor that?
It may be have to be, designingthe onboarding experience.
It may have to do with.
Content, but whatever it is.
And so, I, one, it's hardrepetition makes everything high
performance.
It doesn't come easy for anyone.
It's a simple framework, butit's hard to do.
(26:47):
And what I love about the thekey result part is that you are
then, as a manager, you candelegate some of those key
actions.
And it also keeps you veryfocused on priority.
Data and to achieve theobjective.
So I love the framework.
It's it works really well.
And then we expand on that withand which is some of the thesis
(27:09):
of Slingshot, that, okay, nowwe're taking our signals from
all our business systems, of ourmetrics for each of these OKRs
and key results.
And then we're collaborating andusing experimentation to drive a
better business outcome'cause.
What happens is things normallyjust don't go well.
Oh, your customer acquisitioncost is too high.
Your conversions aren't rightThrough the customer journey and
(27:31):
funnel, all these things youhave to optimize to increase
sales.
Your OKRs are helping youexecute, but then data and
experimentation is helping youadjust and win and be agile and
win to achieve your objectives.
dan balcauski (27:47):
Yeah.
And I love that you talkedabout, it's, it is hard.
It's deceptively simple inpractice.
Yeah.
'cause I don't know anyone who,on principle says, objectives
and key results are a bad thingto have.
I think everyone would sort ofsay, oh yeah, goals are good.
Right.
And and then I, the.
Valley is littered withcompanies that have
unsuccessfully tried toimplement such a simple
practice.
(28:07):
So yes, repetition definitelyhelps you improve over time.
You have mentioned slingshot afew times now in the
conversation, so I'd like to gothere and this product, as I
understand it, departssignificantly from infragistics
historical focus on dev tools.
I guess, what made you decide totackle this?
Organizational systems problemafter, decades of focusing on
(28:29):
developer tools.
dean guida (28:31):
Well, one was a business motive and two, that we
wanted to implement this thesis.
I keep talking about that therewasn't a product implementing
this thesis of, okay let's alignpeople on action to, to execute
on our strategy and then let'suse collaboration and
experimentation to drivebusiness results.
So.
There, there was, there's lotsof pieces of systems out there,
(28:52):
but there was nothing pulling itall together.
So, so one was from the businesspoint of view is like we wanted
to operate in a bigger market, abigger a market that we could
make more money in.
Developer tools is a greatmarket, but there's, some of our
tools are, are niche and there'sa top threshold of how much
share you can acquire of thatmarket.
So we wanna operate in a biggermarket.
(29:13):
So that was a businessmotivation, but I think the
bigger motivation was really,there was nothing out there,
that we could use.
We use a ton of SaaS systems,like we use so many and some of
the problems of using these SaaSsystems.
Is data gets locked up in thesesystems.
They get locked up inspreadsheets, they get locked up
in PowerPoint.
And even our company who's verydata driven, if you don't know
(29:36):
how to get to the data you'remaking decisions without it.
And it happens all day, everyday.
Oh, but we have CRM, we have aBM systems, we have, automation
of this, we have analytics ofthat.
And so we wanted to make iteasy.
One of the things we did inSlingshot was.
We implemented conversationalanalytics using, LLMs and AI so
that you could just have aconversation and say, well,
(29:58):
what's my how did my Ruby Campdigital campaign do?
Oh, that was$60 per lead, oh,okay.
Well, where's all my leadscoming from?
Oh, they're coming from organichere, from PPC here, from social
here.
Okay, well now I have all thisdata.
Let me collaborate with my team.
Oh, we wanna reduce our, wewanna increase deal closure.
And we wanna, we really need tobring our lead costs down.
(30:20):
So then, using Slingshot, youcould do all these things.
You can look at your objectives,you can look at your metrics
across all your business systemsin one place.
So you're not you don't knowwhere to find the data.
And then you're going from thatto experimentation and trying,
you hypothesize, oh, if wechange that targeting or that
messaging, or we had a fasterfollow up on a lead.
(30:44):
Could we get that discoverymeeting at a higher rate?
And so, this whole flywheel ofstaying focused on objectives,
prioritizing how you're gonnaachieve it through OKRs, getting
the data and the signals andexperimentation is a modern way
to really be agile and drivebusiness growth.
And so there wasn't somethinglike that out there that,
(31:05):
there's Monday and Asana that dowork management, but they don't
pull in data from across allthese systems and.
So being data-driven is anothersimple thing to say.
It's hard to do even with allthese SaaS systems.
dan balcauski (31:17):
Yeah, I guess, 'cause I guess many vendors
would claim that they're sort ofunlocking data silos and I guess
I would say the entire biindustry will say that from the
rooftops.
But it sounds like what you'repointing to is that, it's not
only the data, but then it alsobeing able to attach sort of the
work, like how the work getsdone based upon that as well.
dean guida (31:38):
Yeah, it's the fluidity of the whole thing.
So yeah, BI tools definitelyunlock data silos business
systems create data silos, butthe problem with a lot of BI
systems is that they stop andend there.
Then you have to like, have ananalyst go and do something for
you, or you have to know.
Where those dashboards or datais.
(31:59):
And so we solve some of thoseproblems with a data catalog
inside the collaborationplatform where you can just
quickly search and understandwhere the metrics are.
And so you don't have to knowhow to get into the financial
system or the CRM system.
But still all the security isstill built in there.
And then through ai, we'remaking it even easier too, where
you can just, in a chatconversation, get at the data.
(32:22):
Now you don't even need to knowwhere the dashboards are, what's
what?
You just ask the questions andthen it puts up beautiful
visualizations and it createstrust.
So a lot of people don't trustai.
So like we, from a userexperience point of view, we
give a very quick answer to yourquestion, but then you could
drill in and see the how wecalculated it and what data
sources we use, but.
(32:43):
Everything has to do with speed,user experience, and fluidity of
execution, and that's what wemodeled in Slingshot.
dan balcauski (32:51):
Well, and kind of going back to, you know how I,
we started talking aboutslingshot, which is, this is a
divergence from the dev toolspace, and you explained sort of
the market opportunity that yousaw there.
I guess given your time inmarket so far, are
organizational tools harder tomake successful than developer
tools?
dean guida (33:07):
Oh yeah, because the hard thing is change management.
So like I talk to so many CEOs,mid market CEOs, and they can
agree with me, but we all know,including myself, including you,
how hard it is to introduce anew tool, improve process,
change management is hard.
And so, our key go to market ismid-market CEOs and go top down
(33:29):
because.
The CEO's usually driven to, forgrowth in a better way to win.
We and so like we stay away fromthe enterprise.
Too many decision makers, toomuch tech, too many people to
convince.
We do go departmentally in therefor marketing teams, but this,
the concept I've been talkingabout is more organizational.
(33:49):
So yeah, the hardest thing ischange management.
And and that just won't, thatwon't go away.
dan balcauski (33:55):
Well, I, there's a million more questions I could
ask about that pivot, because Ithink it's, there's a lot of
gold to be tapped for otherfolks who kind of, you know
you're not alone at a certainpoint.
You do tap out kind of currentmarket.
You're like, oh, this could bepromising over here.
And then you realize there's abunch of reasons why that turns
out harder than you thought.
But in the interest of time Iwanna pivot and start closing
out with a couple of rapid firecloseout questions.
Are you ready?
dean guida (34:15):
Yeah, ready?
dan balcauski (34:16):
How do you define success for yourself today?
dean guida (34:22):
Well, I mean, I'm trying to go rapid fire, but the
way I define success for metoday is I feel very successful
already.
I'm very grateful for what I'vealready done, so I already feel
that.
But I've set the next bar, whichis like, I really want, I really
like, I really want slingshot tobe in the billion dollar club.
So that's why personally like apersonal goal, but success is
(34:44):
like, yeah, enjoying your work,having people enjoy building
some really cool stuff andcustomers appreciating you.
I mean, that, that is alwaysbeen the energy back to be
successful.
And that's probably the mainanswer is just that.
dan balcauski (34:57):
Enjoy your day to day.
Got it.
And when you think about all thespectacular people you've had a
chance to work with, is anyonewho just pops to mind who's had
a disproportionate effect in theway that you think about
building companies now?
I.
dean guida (35:08):
There's no one person, but I'm always amazed
that where you get thesegeniuses that do, the work of 38
plus people.
I just love those people and andI cherish them.
And so like, when you are a justreally driven, motivated, smart
person and and wanna win I justlove them.
And there's been a lot of themat our company and over my
(35:29):
career.
I just love people like that.
They're, they just wanna do goodwork and then they end up doing
the work of 38 plus people.
It's amazing.
It's incredible that they can dothat.
dan balcauski (35:38):
That's amazing.
Look, in your book you lay out alot of practices that you stand
by and adopt, I guess, let meask you the antithesis of that.
Like, what's something you'veobserved other companies doing
that looks good from theoutside, but you know, doesn't
work in practice?
What should everyone else stopdoing?
dean guida (35:53):
I think if you read every business book and you
think that it, including minethat's it.
Learn it.
You go do it.
It's gonna work.
Nope.
It's a framework and so you haveto certainly learn it, do it,
but it's about adjusting andlearning from doing it.
So that's the main thing.
Like all these business booksmake everything sound simple and
(36:14):
you just do it and you're gonnahave a successful company.
I believe in, in, in learningand trying these things, but
it's actually doing it and thenlearning the market's reaction
and adjusting to make itsuccessful.
That's the key.
dan balcauski (36:26):
Yeah.
If we could all just adopt allthose habits, all the books tell
us we need to do, like, we'd allbe super skinny and super fit
and millionaires, right?
dean guida (36:35):
It just doesn't work that way.
dan balcauski (36:37):
I've read all those books, it's still, I'm
still waiting for it.
I love that response.
Look if I gave you a billboardand you put any advice up there
for other B2B Sass CEOs tryingto scale their companies, what
would it say?
dean guida (36:48):
It's all about the people.
Like yeah, care about yourpeople, care about the culture,
and make it a place whereeveryone loves to solve problems
together.
dan balcauski (36:57):
Care about the people.
I've absolutely enjoyed thisconversation.
If Dean, if our listeners wantto learn more about infragistics
or follow you, how can they dothat?
dean guida (37:06):
So I have my own website dean guided.com, and
then I, you can then connect tomy book and then we have a lot
of websites now as a companyfour.
But so, but infragistics.com isour main one, but there's
slingshot app.io.
There's reveal bi.io, there'sapp builder.dev.
These are all our, sorry, it'sso complex answer, but those are
(37:27):
ways to get connected.
dan balcauski (37:29):
Those are fantastic.
I will put them in the notes forour listeners so you don't have
to scramble down if you're outwalking your dog or whatever.
There'll be in your there'll belinks of the show notes.
Thank you so much, Dean,everyone.
This wraps up this episode ofSaaS Scaling Secrets.
Thank you to Dean for sharinghis journey, insights, and
valuable tips for our listeners.
You found this conversation as alightning anxiety to remember,
subscribe so you don't miss outon future episodes.
Welcome to SaaS Scaling Secrets, the podcast
that brings you the insidestories from the leaders of the
best scale up, B2B SaaScompanies.
I'm your host, Dan Balcauski,founder of Product Tranquility.
Today I'm excited to speak withDean Guida.
Dean founded Infragistics in1989, building it from a side
project while working in WallStreet into a global leader in
UX development tools.
Over 35 years, he's grown thecompany to serve a hundred
percent of the s and p 500 morethan 2 million software
(00:43):
engineers using their products.
Most recently, Dean launchedSlingshot, a work management
platform and released a book inearly 2024 when Grit is not
enough, detailing his insightsand building sustainable tech
companies.
Let's dive in.
Welcome Dean to SaaS ScalingSecrets.
dean guida (00:56):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
dan balcauski (00:58):
I'm excited for our conversation today, Dean, I
wanna start a little bit on thepersonal.
I know you have had a longjourney in your career, but
there are different moments thatstand out that transform us.
I like to think of them assuperhero transformation
moments.
You're Peter Parker, normal highschool student.
You get bit by a radioactivespider.
You go to bed, you wake up,you're Spider-Man.
(01:18):
What moment was that for you inyour journey?
dean guida (01:22):
there's probably a couple of moments.
One, one was in eighth grade, Iattended this course that talked
about entrepreneurs in America,and I just like, loved hearing
about how they created somethingnew.
We're very engineering andscientific oriented and created
a whole industry and a lot ofvalue for themselves, the
company and the whole market.
So that was reallyinspirational.
(01:44):
And then in business there was apivotal moment where we were
finding ourselves with a 580,000a month expense structure and
having$618 in the bank.
And so we were kind of legallybankrupt and, it makes you
realize, I never wannaexperience that again.
So you really start to put inbetter processes expand the
(02:07):
expand the burden, basicallydelegation and leadership and
and build a team and not justlike, work 24 7, don't take a
paycheck, don't take your ownpaycheck.
That doesn't, that never whenyou get to a certain size that
doesn't fix things.
And so that was a big moment.
We survived obviously, but wedidn't have to survive.
dan balcauski (02:25):
Well, I love both of those moments.
And for those of you out therenever too early to introduce
your children to the world ofentrepreneurship, as we heard in
the first snip that you gavethere.
Both I'm sure very powerfulmoments.
And we may that they may be acommon thread throughout our
conversation.
We'll see where it goes beforewe get further in.
I gave a little bit of an introabout infragistics in the.
Beginning of the episode, butcould you just give your take on
(02:48):
the 32nd overview of whatinfragistics is?
dean guida (02:51):
Yeah, I mean, we're really four companies now.
We UI UX tools that we sell toour biggest markets, ISVs, other
software companies, and then andthen to the enterprise really
excel across all verticals.
But that's been the foundingproduct.
But now we also have RevealEmbed, which is a analytics
dashboarding engine that we sellto other SaaS companies.
(03:12):
We have App builder that's forpro devs, that's a low code tool
to produce applications.
And you can go from design tocode very quickly if you're, you
have a design team and andSlingshot, which we've been
running the company off of forsix years, we're really excited
by it.
It's a, an AI data-driven workmanagement tool that really
drives have your objectives andkey actions go to market, get
(03:35):
the signals from across all yourbusiness systems.
Telling you what's happening,and usually things don't go
well.
So then collaborate with yourteam, with your signals that
the, from yours, your sales andmarketing and finance systems,
and come up with experiments to,in a systematic way, drive
better business outcomes.
So, that we're a global companyand we have a, pretty big
(03:56):
customer base and, but we're nowseparated into four companies.
dan balcauski (04:00):
We've got a lot of space and market different
markets that you play in.
But all related to differentsoftware products help, it
sounds like common theme throughit helping software engineers,
ux, UI designers do their jobsbetter day in, day out.
I wanna talk a, at the beginningof this part, of this
conversation about your book.
your book is titled, when Gritis Not Enough That You released?
(04:22):
Early in 2024, I guess, with somany business books out there.
What was your hope for addingthis one into the mix?
dean guida (04:29):
Well.
I think my hope was that after35 years, I wanted to share how
with other entrepreneurs toincrease their chances of
success.
And so I didn't find there wasone book out there capturing a
lot of things I've learned.
So, and I try to be succinct.
So you can read a book aroundstrategy, blue Ocean, or and,
(04:50):
you read, you get a couple ofgood tidbits and then you have
to spend 200 pages on.
Case studies.
And so I was kind of moresuccinct and action oriented
and, but I cover everything fromgo to market planning strategy
to creating trust beingdata-driven, the scientific
method of business outcomes,coaching, hiring.
(05:10):
And so really my goal was justto share all this experience to
help other entrepreneurs.
I wish I would've had it andinto winning.
And then the title, I'm sorry.
The title.
So every entrepreneur has tohave grit and every entrepreneur
has to be like, very optimistic.
'cause otherwise you're younever do what we do.
It's like, it's, there's so muchpain, of course, so much fun and
(05:33):
happiness too.
But it's a rough road.
And so, grit, we all know gritis, you just stay focused on a
long-term objective with all theups and downs and see it
through.
And so when grit's not enough,yes, you need grit, you need
optimism, but then now you needto get to the next level and
build out good teams, culture,company, and good.
Go-to market processes.
dan balcauski (05:55):
And yeah, so I you've a couple points there.
You've definitely read a lot ofbusiness books because I
completely agree.
You get the first chapter wherethey introduce the concept and
then you've got 20 more chaptersof case studies and you're like,
I think I get the point already.
This could have been onechapter.
So, I appreciate you putting itin one handy guide for everyone.
Was there a specific moment inyour life that sort of, made
(06:20):
that concept of when grit is notenough, like super concrete for
you that made it made youchallenge that common narrative?
dean guida (06:27):
Yeah, I mean, I shared that one story where we
were pretty much outta cash andhad to come up with$580,000.
That, that, that was a definingmoment.
There there was many othermoments.
When you're 10 people, whenyou're smaller, like you cannot
take salary, you can work harderand you can impact things, but
that doesn't create a scalable,resilient company.
(06:50):
And so, over time throughreading a lot of books having
coaches, taking a lot ofseminars and just having this
very, which we all have asentrepreneurs this open-minded
growth mindset.
Keep learning, keep improving.
These are just importantlessons, in the book that that
you need to execute on to have asustainable business.
And so, I think all through lifeyou keep getting knocked down
(07:12):
and trial and error.
And I think, and that's wheregrit comes in, that you get back
up and get back in the game.
But but building a resilientcompany and culture and team is
is critical to long-termsuccess.
dan balcauski (07:25):
Well, you do cover quite a bit of topics
that, potentially listeners ofour podcast will be.
Aware of things like OKRs andpsychological safety and
building trust in teams.
I'm curious, like has it couldbe those or anything el else
that you've adopted as you'vegrown, infragistics over the
years, has there been conceptsor these type of business
(07:48):
frameworks or advice that youinitially sort of resisted but
eventually sort of saw thepromise after it ended up
embracing over time.
dean guida (07:56):
Yeah, there was.
So first of all, I love peopleand like people and people's the
most important thing.
But I went I went to this placecalled Center for Creative
Leadership and they hadpsychologically interviewed me.
They interviewed my wife, theyinterviewed my team.
And I scored on a score of oneto five, five being the best, a
(08:16):
two for caring about people.
And I was like, heartbroken.
I'm like, that's impossible.
Like I care about people.
And so what happened was I wentto the, I went to the center and
I learned that like I just wasso focused on getting work done
that I didn't createrelationships with people.
I was just very, just verydriven and I missed the whole
(08:37):
part of connecting with peopleand creating the relationship.
And so, that was a big lesson.
But at that Center for CreativeLeadership which is an amazing
program, I learned anotherthing, which was the first day.
So they put you on these teamsand they, first of all,
psychology is so scary.
They know everything about you.
They and what they did, the waythey made you learn was they put
(08:59):
you.
You learn through experientiallearning.
So they put you in these badsituations to pull out all your
bad habits and all yourstrengths.
And as we learn and know, likeyour strengths can also be your
weaknesses.
So the first day they had menext to this girl and it just
happened to be a girl, but shewas like crazy cuckoo.
And I was like, oh my God, Ihope she's not on my team.
I hope she's not on my team.
(09:20):
Well, what do you think?
She's on my first team.
'cause they put you in theseteam settings and.
We had to throw this ball aroundand and tell a great team
experience.
And so we're throwing the ballaround and then they told us,
okay, in the order you threw theball around you need to do it
under a minute.
So there was like, 10 teams of10.
And so we're like, oh my God,under a minute there's too many
(09:41):
people throwing the ball around.
And then they put pressure onyou.
Like, what's wrong with youguys?
Like, everyone else is done.
What's wrong?
What's wrong with you guys?
And we're like, oh, crap.
And then this girl.
Came up with this great idea.
She goes, well, let's get outtathis circle and let's just stand
in the order that we threw theball around randomly and we
ended up putting our handstogether like this.
And we did it in seconds.
We rolled the ball down there.
(10:02):
So one of the big, that was abig learning for me, which was I
always hired people that thoughtlike me, talked like me, and
guess what?
Harm harmonious team, we alwaysgot along and it was easy to
manage, but we always solved theproblem the same way.
And so like.
I learned that you have to havediversity of thinking.
You need to have differentpeople.
Don't hire everyone like youbecause then you'll come up with
(10:24):
way better ideas.
So someone that thinks differentwill make a right turn.
Then you can build on thatsolution.
Now it's harder to manage andrun teams with diversity of
thinking because you don'talways agree you have conflict.
But if you're into solvingproblems the best way and being
creative, it's amazing.
dan balcauski (10:41):
That's like a great story.
And yeah, even going backearlier in your story about
getting that feedback some ofthose three sixties or
assessments you get when you've,especially as you've advanced in
your career, and they can bepretty painful to hear and
they're painful usually'causethey're accurate, right.
dean guida (10:56):
It.
No doubt.
It's very
dan balcauski (10:58):
If they were just totally off base, it wouldn't
make, it wouldn't emotionallyhurt you, but I mean, it was,
you were just like, oh no.
There's that blind spot I've
dean guida (11:05):
you're you're you're first in denial.
But then if you're true toyourself, well, first of all,
you get curious like, what, howcould that be possible?
And then you learn how it'spossible.
And that led into like our wholecoaching process that, you need
people to give you feedback andso that you can uncover those
blind spots.
And and even if you don't agreewith the feedback you're
getting, like still it's aperception that people feel that
(11:26):
way.
So why not improve it and workat that?
And so, coaching's a huge thingwe believe in too.
Always work on improving bothsoft and, hard skills and be
real focused at continuedlearning.
you know, individually.
dan balcauski (11:41):
Well, I'm intrigued by, the, depth and
length of your experience in thesoftware industry.
I guess as you look today at theSaaS landscape, what do you see
as sort of the most commonmisconception about what it
takes to build a elasticsoftware company?
dean guida (11:57):
Well, I think everyone knows this so hard
'cause it is really hard.
I, it comes, there's a couplethings.
You definitely need to havecompetitive advantage and value,
clear value of the market.
And it is true.
You have to find product marketfit.
It's not easy, it's not obvious.
You could do all the researchand analysis in the world, but
until you go and.
Start selling something andasking for money and winning
(12:19):
over competitors and getting toa point where you can have a
repeatable process where youdon't have to have like a super
sales person or the CEO doingevery sale.
That, that, that's critical.
And so, creating a greatsoftware company starts with a
good idea and a competitiveadvantage for sure.
Clearly articulating that.
And then it's all about thepeople building your team,
(12:40):
sales, marketing, engineering.
Design.
I mean, you just need a greatteam to execute and and then
create a culture that's, end upbeing curious and problem
solving and and staying focusedon quality and not just time to
market.
And so there, there's, are theseother elements as well, but it's
it's people, it's competitiveadvantage and and then it's,
(13:00):
find a product market fitbecause that is a hard thing to
do.
dan balcauski (13:04):
Well, and you, in your book you talk a lot about
building culture, but alsomention that, a lot of leaders
fail at, the idea of eventhinking about culture'cause
it's fluffy.
Like how do you think aboutmaking it more tangible for
folks?
dean guida (13:18):
Yeah I used to be a freelance consultant.
I wrote software down on WallStreet at IBM and I.
Not that IBM was a bad culture,but I just saw a lot of bad
cultures and I, so even beforestarting my company, I knew I
wanted to intentionally have agreat culture and culture's
actually simple.
It's like.
People you work with, enjoyworking with you, enjoy problem
(13:40):
solving and building with youand going to market with you.
I mean, and then people stay.
And how do you attract reallygood people and keep'em for a
long time?
Some of the joyful things I haveis I, we have some geniuses
working for us for 20 years, 15years, and they can work
anywhere.
And so being intentional aboutbuilding a culture as it starts
with hiring, look for growthminded people.
(14:02):
What did you know, questionslike, what did you read in the
last six months?
What.
What, what do you wanna know andlearn over the next year?
People that are really intolearning and expanding and being
open to that.
And then, so soft skills are soimportant that you hire for
people that fit your cultureitself.
And and you share that even inyour, how you're posting and
(14:22):
what it's like to work with youand what you're working on.
And then it comes to, I mean,there's so much to it, but
creating trust is so important.
So like.
Like we try and I say try'causeit's always a work in process
progress, but, have blamelessproblem solving.
So if you really want people toshare problems, collaborate on
problems, you need to have thatsafety that you talked about
(14:45):
earlier.
That people feel safe aboutasking a question, sharing a
problem, and then asking forhelp and working on problems.
And so intentionally creatingthat problem solving safe,
collaborative, trustingenvironment is key.
And and then I'll just wrap up.
There's a lot more to it, butbeing data-driven helps a lot.
(15:05):
You just have so much moreproductivity when you're
introducing data into theconversations around solving
problems.
dan balcauski (15:14):
I, well, and I'm kind of curious,'cause you'd
mentioned, you'd seen WallStreet and I don't think anybody
would say Wall Street culture isa culture they probably want to
emulate inside their technologyfirms Very Silicon Valley versus
wall Street.
Very different in terms of howthey think about their.
Their, they're people and etcetera.
But you know, I guess was therea, in your mind, was there a
formative experience either atinfragistics or before where you
(15:36):
kind of saw culture, like have anegative impact?
dean guida (15:40):
Well, I'll share a negative and I'll share a
positive, I mean a positive.
So I worked on Wall Street atbanks and insurance companies,
so I worked on product teamsbuilding software.
So it wasn't like the brokerwall, the Wolf of Wall Street
kind of experience.
It was smart people buildingcomplex systems.
So I was at a IG down in 99 JohnStreet.
We had an amazing team.
(16:01):
It was unbelievable.
It was early days like our, theit was a, our, we built a client
service system.
I mean, this was a long timeago.
It was like over 35 plus yearsago.
And we had DB two as ourbackend.
We had data adrenaline laptopsas a front end.
And that team was amazing.
We went on to createinfragistics, part of the team,
and part of the team went on tocreate another product called,
(16:21):
logicworks a database entitymanagement tool, which and so
that was a great experience.
It was just a team that wantedto get things done, wanted to
build quality and collaborate.
Then I worked on anothercompany.
There was like 30 consultants.
There's probably a hundredpeople on the team and everyone
just show up at meetings andtalk and look good.
(16:41):
And meanwhile, like me and twoother people did all the work.
And it was a culture of peoplenot caring, and.
I loved writing software and andso yeah I just didn't like
people just talking and showingup and not really caring about
the work at hand.
dan balcauski (16:57):
So making sure people are really sort of
committed to what the company'sabout.
And I think you I guess you knowwhere that sort of leads me is,
I think like when people thinkabout culture and corporate life
you'll often hear talk about,mission statements or vision
statements, and those can often.
Release a collective groan froma lot of frontline employees who
(17:18):
are like who we're now gettingbaked in some, heavy corporate
jargon.
I guess h how do you thinkabout, like, I, is that a part
of how you think about cultureand like, is there a way to
like, break through that asyou're trying to like really
help the, like, everyone sort ofget behind what the, it's like,
Hey, this is what we're here todo.
So kind of the antithesis ofwhat you're describing.
dean guida (17:37):
Well, you have to be real and true because that's why
people groan about a purpose ora vision statement when it's
just not true.
So, so you have to like be realtruthful in what you're doing.
And so for example, for us, likeI said, we, people stay with us
'cause they like the peoplethey're working with, they like
the products they're working on.
They like they like how we doget things done.
(18:00):
And so there's not labelingpeople, not finger pointing.
Of course we have, we're notperfect and we have all that as
well, but to a lower degree.
So, so like intentionally youtalking about intention, we
build a really beautifulbuilding.
We introduced like, food intomeetings and we supported a lot
of community events and we,like, we'd share monthly share
(18:20):
teach people programming,design.
We shared it.
We shared our, we have thisbeautiful space with the boy
scouts with the high schools.
And so just part of like,sharing and we spent a lot of
money to like make a very warm,relaxed environment.
Introduced food and stuff isjust part of it.
And and then just solving.
Important problems in acollaborative way.
(18:41):
And so people want, they, aculture is like, I enjoy how we
get work done.
I enjoy working with the peoplearound me.
And so it, it comes down tothat, that's what attracts good
people.
They recommend their friends tocome work there.
And and so you're intentionalabout it.
Like at one point we used tohave cubes, but then we had
beautiful offices and then wecared about, everything.
(19:03):
We cared about creating trust.
We cared about managers andexecs that we hired that
wouldn't break our culture.
We cared about who we hired.
And so it's an ongoing workeffort.
And then once you get bigger andyou get regional, every, like
we're in Japan, we're in EasternEurope, we're in Europe, in
London we're in South America.
Like each one then starts tohave their own mini culture.
dan balcauski (19:24):
Mm-hmm.
dean guida (19:25):
can't help that.
But then the overarching cultureof the company needs to kind of
see it through.
So, I mean, leaders have a bigthing to do with it, but then
you have to like communicate theculture you want and like I, I
meet with every new employee andgive'em an onboarding and
sometimes'cause they group'emup, it may be a couple of months
before they, they join thecompany.
They've already been in thecompany a month or two
(19:47):
sometimes.
And I talk about values and theculture we want and I say that.
Because it's up to them, the newhires to, if you like this and
you join us'cause of this, youneed to keep it going.
And what's rewarding is whenthey say, wow, like that is what
I've experienced here.
What I described.
I'm like, okay, well we've gottakeep this thing going and you
(20:07):
own the culture as much as me,so let's keep this thing going.
So it's So culture is real.
It's like how you get work doneand if you just put marketing
spin on it, it's.
It doesn't work.
People see through it and thequality people will leave.
dan balcauski (20:22):
Well, you mentioned something in your last
response there that was kind ofjumped out to me, which is I
think a lot of companies, oncethey hit scale, start to deal
with, which is alright, nowwe're in multiple countries,
multiple time zones.
Like, we used to be 10 people ina room and we'd, be, we'd split
a pizza and like everyone wouldjust, swivel around in their
chairs and Right.
And like now we're.
(20:43):
We're not, we don't see eachother every day.
Right.
And a lot of people, especiallywith covid went hybrid, et
cetera.
I guess, can you talk a littlebit more about like, how you
thought about, like, you talkabout, hey, like there's a,
there's sort of, individualoffice culture, but then the,
the corporate culture has to, bethis, somewhat, coherent as
well.
Are there ways that you'vethought about like,
(21:03):
pragmatically, like helping thatalong?
dean guida (21:06):
Yeah, I mean I I get in front of the company once a
month and I talk about what'shappening in the company.
Um, we have myself and all ourleaders and managers, when you
tell stories, people listen tothat.
When you say, oh, these areobjectives.
But when you tell stories, andthose are those stories which
are real stories, embody thevalues and culture.
(21:27):
You want people listen to that.
And your leaders, you have toknow, everyone's watching you.
Everyone is watching you always,they know everything.
And so, like, know that and andalways, communicate and
physically and emotionally andkeep telling stories and reward
people around stories that, thatare real, but impact the, the
(21:49):
values in your culture you want.
So, so, so that's one way.
Then me getting in front of thecompany once a month is.
Really important.
You know what happens is whenyou have satellite offices,
people make their own narrative,make up their own thing what's
going on, which can have a lifeof its own, which is usually not
good.
And so, and then I write a in,we use slingshots when slingshot
I write a a post once a monthtalking about what's happening
(22:12):
in the company.
And so the, these things helpreinforce it.
But it's not one thing.
It's like a lot of, it's a lotof things that you do.
First you hire, right?
Then you create trust, then youcreate this, problem solving,
curious culture.
Then, and then you you're veryclear about what good and great
is like through a clearobjectives and key actions.
(22:33):
And I mean, it's many thingsthat create a company, a culture
that people enjoy and enjoy tobe part of.
It is not one thing, but itneeds to be intentional,
especially by the CEO founderand leader.
dan balcauski (22:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's a gnarly topic.
And I thought you covered itwell in your book which is why I
thought it would be a usefultopic to help break down because
it's something that you'reright, like people give a
marketing spin to of a, it's,this is what culture is, and
then that's kind of where theguidance is left.
A lot of leaders, you're like,okay, well, I don't know how to
affect that, so I'm gonna go.
(23:08):
Worry about the things I ca Iknow how to actually approach.
But obviously you've beenincredibly successful both, on
the longevity of the company ingeneral as well as, keeping
employees for decades it soundslike at at times.
So, that's no small feat intoday's business world.
For sure.
You did just hint at things likeOKRs, right?
I, and I don't know, there'sprobably not a person who's
listening to this podcast who'snever heard about OKRs and.
(23:32):
Much like mission and visionstatements, they may exhibit an
eye roll because I, there are alot of companies that.
You try implement them,implementing them, and just, it
just goes sideways.
I, there's often a gap between,knowing where Right.
Business practice and actuallyimplementing them effectively, I
guess as you've sort of, adoptedthem, I am assuming from, our
conversation you're actuallyusing something akin to OKRs at
(23:55):
infragistics, I guess whatsurprised you about actually
putting them into practice?
And I guess is there anythingyou've learned for how to like
make them actually very.
Useful in an environment versusjust sort of this?
Oh, yes, we have them.
So I can tell my board this.
We have them.
dean guida (24:10):
Yeah, I mean, I'm a huge fan of OKRs and as Andy
Grove created it the founder ofIntel like in the 1970s.
dan balcauski (24:17):
got high output management on my bookshelf
dean guida (24:19):
yeah, and so the thing about OKRs, it's a simple,
lightweight framework, but it'sactually hard to implement.
And so it took us a couple ofyears to get really good at it.
And what do I mean by that?
Like.
If you just measure activity andnot, they say focus on business
outcome, that's a bad thing.
And so, so just writing goodOKRs is a, is hard to do.
(24:40):
It takes repetition and like,we're all smart people, but it
took us a couple years to getgood at it.
So that's why it's hard.
So if you have it takes time toget good at it.
And then the other, what Ireally like about OKRs is that
or this is how we do it.
You don't have to do it in ahierarchical, cascading way, but
that's what we do.
We create our annual plan.
That supports our three yearstrategy and we created at a
(25:01):
high level, so we're settingobjectives that are measurable.
We're defining prioritization.
'cause you can only really putthree to five key actions to
support that objective, whichmakes you really think about
what is most important toexecute and have priority.
And then typically those can bemeasured.
Sometimes you can't like.
When we first started learningaccount based marketing, like
(25:22):
one, one key result ofdelivering revenue on a BM was
we had to learn a BMI mean, youcan kind of measure it, but you
can't measure it, so, but thatwas a critical action.
We all learn about a BM bestpractices and but what we do is,
so we create this annual planset of OKRs, but then we push it
down to the teams that have toexecute on that.
(25:44):
So that they then will createOKRs based on these high level
objectives of the company.
And then you get that processof, with the team coming up with
the objectives and how you'regonna achieve those objectives
is critical.
'cause you get alignment, youget collaboration, you get
discussion, and and you getintrinsic buy-in to it.
(26:05):
And the other thing you get bypushing it down is you get
innovation.
So like I could set theobjectives of, okay, we're gonna
drive$5 million in new sales.
We're gonna do it throughdigital sales led, product led.
Okay.
That's what I do.
Now, the people that areresponsible for product led that
can have that, okay, we're gonnadeliver a million dollars in
(26:25):
product led as the objective,but what are the key three to
five key actions we could takefor that?
It may be have to be, designingthe onboarding experience.
It may have to do with.
Content, but whatever it is.
And so, I, one, it's hardrepetition makes everything high
performance.
It doesn't come easy for anyone.
It's a simple framework, butit's hard to do.
(26:47):
And what I love about the thekey result part is that you are
then, as a manager, you candelegate some of those key
actions.
And it also keeps you veryfocused on priority.
Data and to achieve theobjective.
So I love the framework.
It's it works really well.
And then we expand on that withand which is some of the thesis
(27:09):
of Slingshot, that, okay, nowwe're taking our signals from
all our business systems, of ourmetrics for each of these OKRs
and key results.
And then we're collaborating andusing experimentation to drive a
better business outcome'cause.
What happens is things normallyjust don't go well.
Oh, your customer acquisitioncost is too high.
Your conversions aren't rightThrough the customer journey and
(27:31):
funnel, all these things youhave to optimize to increase
sales.
Your OKRs are helping youexecute, but then data and
experimentation is helping youadjust and win and be agile and
win to achieve your objectives.
dan balcauski (27:47):
Yeah.
And I love that you talkedabout, it's, it is hard.
It's deceptively simple inpractice.
Yeah.
'cause I don't know anyone who,on principle says, objectives
and key results are a bad thingto have.
I think everyone would sort ofsay, oh yeah, goals are good.
Right.
And and then I, the.
Valley is littered withcompanies that have
unsuccessfully tried toimplement such a simple
practice.
(28:07):
So yes, repetition definitelyhelps you improve over time.
You have mentioned slingshot afew times now in the
conversation, so I'd like to gothere and this product, as I
understand it, departssignificantly from infragistics
historical focus on dev tools.
I guess, what made you decide totackle this?
Organizational systems problemafter, decades of focusing on
(28:29):
developer tools.
dean guida (28:31):
Well, one was a business motive and two, that we
wanted to implement this thesis.
I keep talking about that therewasn't a product implementing
this thesis of, okay let's alignpeople on action to, to execute
on our strategy and then let'suse collaboration and
experimentation to drivebusiness results.
So.
There, there was, there's lotsof pieces of systems out there,
(28:52):
but there was nothing pulling itall together.
So, so one was from the businesspoint of view is like we wanted
to operate in a bigger market, abigger a market that we could
make more money in.
Developer tools is a greatmarket, but there's, some of our
tools are, are niche and there'sa top threshold of how much
share you can acquire of thatmarket.
So we wanna operate in a biggermarket.
(29:13):
So that was a businessmotivation, but I think the
bigger motivation was really,there was nothing out there,
that we could use.
We use a ton of SaaS systems,like we use so many and some of
the problems of using these SaaSsystems.
Is data gets locked up in thesesystems.
They get locked up inspreadsheets, they get locked up
in PowerPoint.
And even our company who's verydata driven, if you don't know
(29:36):
how to get to the data you'remaking decisions without it.
And it happens all day, everyday.
Oh, but we have CRM, we have aBM systems, we have, automation
of this, we have analytics ofthat.
And so we wanted to make iteasy.
One of the things we did inSlingshot was.
We implemented conversationalanalytics using, LLMs and AI so
that you could just have aconversation and say, well,
(29:58):
what's my how did my Ruby Campdigital campaign do?
Oh, that was$60 per lead, oh,okay.
Well, where's all my leadscoming from?
Oh, they're coming from organichere, from PPC here, from social
here.
Okay, well now I have all thisdata.
Let me collaborate with my team.
Oh, we wanna reduce our, wewanna increase deal closure.
And we wanna, we really need tobring our lead costs down.
(30:20):
So then, using Slingshot, youcould do all these things.
You can look at your objectives,you can look at your metrics
across all your business systemsin one place.
So you're not you don't knowwhere to find the data.
And then you're going from thatto experimentation and trying,
you hypothesize, oh, if wechange that targeting or that
messaging, or we had a fasterfollow up on a lead.
(30:44):
Could we get that discoverymeeting at a higher rate?
And so, this whole flywheel ofstaying focused on objectives,
prioritizing how you're gonnaachieve it through OKRs, getting
the data and the signals andexperimentation is a modern way
to really be agile and drivebusiness growth.
And so there wasn't somethinglike that out there that,
(31:05):
there's Monday and Asana that dowork management, but they don't
pull in data from across allthese systems and.
So being data-driven is anothersimple thing to say.
It's hard to do even with allthese SaaS systems.
dan balcauski (31:17):
Yeah, I guess, 'cause I guess many vendors
would claim that they're sort ofunlocking data silos and I guess
I would say the entire biindustry will say that from the
rooftops.
But it sounds like what you'repointing to is that, it's not
only the data, but then it alsobeing able to attach sort of the
work, like how the work getsdone based upon that as well.
dean guida (31:38):
Yeah, it's the fluidity of the whole thing.
So yeah, BI tools definitelyunlock data silos business
systems create data silos, butthe problem with a lot of BI
systems is that they stop andend there.
Then you have to like, have ananalyst go and do something for
you, or you have to know.
Where those dashboards or datais.
(31:59):
And so we solve some of thoseproblems with a data catalog
inside the collaborationplatform where you can just
quickly search and understandwhere the metrics are.
And so you don't have to knowhow to get into the financial
system or the CRM system.
But still all the security isstill built in there.
And then through ai, we'remaking it even easier too, where
you can just, in a chatconversation, get at the data.
(32:22):
Now you don't even need to knowwhere the dashboards are, what's
what?
You just ask the questions andthen it puts up beautiful
visualizations and it createstrust.
So a lot of people don't trustai.
So like we, from a userexperience point of view, we
give a very quick answer to yourquestion, but then you could
drill in and see the how wecalculated it and what data
sources we use, but.
(32:43):
Everything has to do with speed,user experience, and fluidity of
execution, and that's what wemodeled in Slingshot.
dan balcauski (32:51):
Well, and kind of going back to, you know how I,
we started talking aboutslingshot, which is, this is a
divergence from the dev toolspace, and you explained sort of
the market opportunity that yousaw there.
I guess given your time inmarket so far, are
organizational tools harder tomake successful than developer
tools?
dean guida (33:07):
Oh yeah, because the hard thing is change management.
So like I talk to so many CEOs,mid market CEOs, and they can
agree with me, but we all know,including myself, including you,
how hard it is to introduce anew tool, improve process,
change management is hard.
And so, our key go to market ismid-market CEOs and go top down
(33:29):
because.
The CEO's usually driven to, forgrowth in a better way to win.
We and so like we stay away fromthe enterprise.
Too many decision makers, toomuch tech, too many people to
convince.
We do go departmentally in therefor marketing teams, but this,
the concept I've been talkingabout is more organizational.
(33:49):
So yeah, the hardest thing ischange management.
And and that just won't, thatwon't go away.
dan balcauski (33:55):
Well, I, there's a million more questions I could
ask about that pivot, because Ithink it's, there's a lot of
gold to be tapped for otherfolks who kind of, you know
you're not alone at a certainpoint.
You do tap out kind of currentmarket.
You're like, oh, this could bepromising over here.
And then you realize there's abunch of reasons why that turns
out harder than you thought.
But in the interest of time Iwanna pivot and start closing
out with a couple of rapid firecloseout questions.
Are you ready?
dean guida (34:15):
Yeah, ready?
dan balcauski (34:16):
How do you define success for yourself today?
dean guida (34:22):
Well, I mean, I'm trying to go rapid fire, but the
way I define success for metoday is I feel very successful
already.
I'm very grateful for what I'vealready done, so I already feel
that.
But I've set the next bar, whichis like, I really want, I really
like, I really want slingshot tobe in the billion dollar club.
So that's why personally like apersonal goal, but success is
(34:44):
like, yeah, enjoying your work,having people enjoy building
some really cool stuff andcustomers appreciating you.
I mean, that, that is alwaysbeen the energy back to be
successful.
And that's probably the mainanswer is just that.
dan balcauski (34:57):
Enjoy your day to day.
Got it.
And when you think about all thespectacular people you've had a
chance to work with, is anyonewho just pops to mind who's had
a disproportionate effect in theway that you think about
building companies now?
I.
dean guida (35:08):
There's no one person, but I'm always amazed
that where you get thesegeniuses that do, the work of 38
plus people.
I just love those people and andI cherish them.
And so like, when you are a justreally driven, motivated, smart
person and and wanna win I justlove them.
And there's been a lot of themat our company and over my
(35:29):
career.
I just love people like that.
They're, they just wanna do goodwork and then they end up doing
the work of 38 plus people.
It's amazing.
It's incredible that they can dothat.
dan balcauski (35:38):
That's amazing.
Look, in your book you lay out alot of practices that you stand
by and adopt, I guess, let meask you the antithesis of that.
Like, what's something you'veobserved other companies doing
that looks good from theoutside, but you know, doesn't
work in practice?
What should everyone else stopdoing?
dean guida (35:53):
I think if you read every business book and you
think that it, including minethat's it.
Learn it.
You go do it.
It's gonna work.
Nope.
It's a framework and so you haveto certainly learn it, do it,
but it's about adjusting andlearning from doing it.
So that's the main thing.
Like all these business booksmake everything sound simple and
(36:14):
you just do it and you're gonnahave a successful company.
I believe in, in, in learningand trying these things, but
it's actually doing it and thenlearning the market's reaction
and adjusting to make itsuccessful.
That's the key.
dan balcauski (36:26):
Yeah.
If we could all just adopt allthose habits, all the books tell
us we need to do, like, we'd allbe super skinny and super fit
and millionaires, right?
dean guida (36:35):
It just doesn't work that way.
dan balcauski (36:37):
I've read all those books, it's still, I'm
still waiting for it.
I love that response.
Look if I gave you a billboardand you put any advice up there
for other B2B Sass CEOs tryingto scale their companies, what
would it say?
dean guida (36:48):
It's all about the people.
Like yeah, care about yourpeople, care about the culture,
and make it a place whereeveryone loves to solve problems
together.
dan balcauski (36:57):
Care about the people.
I've absolutely enjoyed thisconversation.
If Dean, if our listeners wantto learn more about infragistics
or follow you, how can they dothat?
dean guida (37:06):
So I have my own website dean guided.com, and
then I, you can then connect tomy book and then we have a lot
of websites now as a companyfour.
But so, but infragistics.com isour main one, but there's
slingshot app.io.
There's reveal bi.io, there'sapp builder.dev.
These are all our, sorry, it'sso complex answer, but those are
(37:27):
ways to get connected.
dan balcauski (37:29):
Those are fantastic.
I will put them in the notes forour listeners so you don't have
to scramble down if you're outwalking your dog or whatever.
There'll be in your there'll belinks of the show notes.
Thank you so much, Dean,everyone.
This wraps up this episode ofSaaS Scaling Secrets.
Thank you to Dean for sharinghis journey, insights, and
valuable tips for our listeners.
You found this conversation as alightning anxiety to remember,
subscribe so you don't miss outon future episodes.
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