81: On Tradwifery AKA Trad Wives

The "trad wife movement" might make you think of homesteading, baking bread, or raising a million kids. But beyond the FYP lies something darker! We discuss its connection to conservative politics, its whiteness, and its push to roll back a woman's right to choose. Not the same as being a stay at home mom. Maybe just a social media trend. Worth the critique if this is content you consume.

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ig: @sadgap.podcast / @misandristmemes / @txgothgf / music producer @iamjonnibrooks.eth 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Hello, and welcome to Sad Girls against the Patriarchy. I'm
Alison and I'm Alexis, and we are your sad girls.
Alexis has a very cool shirt on underneath her sweatshirt,
which is also very cool.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Also, I was trying to be on.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
The everyone loves someone who had an abortion.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
I got that shirt feel free from giving abortion a
company so much money.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Which is also cool. For donating.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, I was like, you donate twenty dollars this quarter
and you get a free T shirt and I was like,
hell yeah, I love free stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
And the sweatshirt has eyes on it, so it is
all on brand.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
I try.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
We are going to talk about trad wives after you
were forced to listen to me babbel about my personal
life and maybe whatever else we think about, but not
for longer than like ten minutes, so don't worry. But
in writing about tradwives in my notes, the word abortion
will come up at least once, so it is all
on brand.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Oh well, fun, I didn't mention it in mine, even
though you know it didn't not come up during my research.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
I did a gig today and it was doing kind
of an acting related, dancing related job where it was
very sexual, overtly sexual actions, but in a comedic way,
in an end product that I think will look classy.
It wasn't porn. I think we high see her clothes

(01:47):
were on. They were so if later I eat my
words and like, damn, I got doupe. But no, the
company was super legit and like it was a very
you can you know, you can tell when you got
like green room and craft and a PA helping you
out in things, and like a company with a website.
It seemed pretty on the up and up.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
You're like at a studio and not house.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Oh fuck man, it was a garage goddamn fuck comed up.
So it all seemed cool. But what I was gonna
comment on is the fact that the it was an
all male crew and it was like I don't know
ten dudes at least who were there who had to
help with like our costumes and had to there was
like a key card to get in the bathroom, like
constantly like interactions with these dudes. It wasn't like we

(02:31):
just said hi. It was like they were helping us
with equipment and they were all watching us do this
very overtly sexual performance. There was a pantomime of a
strap on involved, just so you know, you know we're
on that level.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Were at this caliber, we're at the.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Caliber of having to pretend you're getting ready as by
a woman. Thankfully. Yes, that's key. It was an all
female cast that made a big difference. I would have
been okay with a gay dude in the cast, but
they were women. I knew. I did not once feel uncomfortable,
is the thing. Well, I did feel uncomfortable because it
was a little outside my comfort zone. The men who
were there did nothing that made me feel uncomfortable in

(03:08):
the slightest and it made such a difference. That's the thing, guys.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
It's possible if you're professional and you treat people like
people and don't aggle them.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
And the energy was like lighter and more creative, like
we were all laughing. They were the guys were there
like they were watching and they were laughing. And I
did notice some of them taking clips for like behind
the scenes stuff later, but it wasn't. I've done things
where it's like a guy just like comes up close
with his phone on vertical and like starts filming you.
I've just did gigs with like background actors who are

(03:42):
just like all over you and wanting to Can I
take pictures of you? Can I film you? And I'm like,
fuck no, get the follow away from me. I'm working
nothing like that. And the director was kind of sexy,
and I think we're gonna go out. I asked the
girls to leave early. The other girls I was with,
I told him in the green room, I'm like, okay,

(04:03):
so I'm about to shoot my shot. Don't wait for
me when you walk out. I'm gonna do a thing,
So see you guys later. And they were like, we
got you.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
That's girls supporting girls.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
I'm supporting women. Yes, So that was very cute. But
he was also cool, and I think a director sets
the tone a lot of the time. Producers and directors,
by the way, if there's any dudes listening who work
in any kind of entertainment production literally anywhere, actually you
set the vibes. If you're a creep, you give all
of the men who work under you the permission to

(04:35):
be creepy yep, and if you're not, and if you
call them out if they are, they're more likely to
stop doing it. And it's really on you, as a leader,
especially as a man, to make sure that everyone who
works for you doesn't act like a fucking crepe.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, And that's just like a good rule of thumb
in life, like if you have a fucking bud that's
a creep, like call him out.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Say something. If you say something, say something, Yes, and
we ladies do it, and we shouldn't have to do
it because that kind of guy, as we always say,
doesn't respect us.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Right, he's not gonna listen to us. He needs the
men that he respects. Yeah, because it means way more
coming out of y'all's mouth. Unfortunately it shouldn't. But here
we are.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
But the PA who was walking me on at the
end was like, Oh, I just want to ask was
there anything that you thought we should have done differently?
Like did you like the way things were set up?
But I said overwhelmingly, I was so comfortable around the
men working here, and for how sexual this content is,
that made a world of difference. And this guy, and
he was he was probably in his like at least
forties or fifties, so he's had some time to like

(05:36):
reach the maturity level woman has at age twelve, you know.
So he said something profound, but let's not pretend he
came up with it at twenty two, you know, he
was probably fifty. He said, yeah, I know, it was
great to hear. Honestly, sometimes it takes effort to not
be creepy like that. And I was like, great, I
love it. Thank you put in that effort Like that

(05:56):
didn't make me uncomfortable to hear. I was like, thank
you for acknowledging that. You're right it does and you
did it.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, Like that's the thing. I think a lot of
dudes don't realize. It's like life takes effort and like
you have to put in effort all the time.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
Yeah, Like, oh, but I wanted to stare at you,
and it would have been hard for me to not
stare at you. Correct.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
Then Jesus said, gouge out your eyes, Like what the fuck?

Speaker 1 (06:20):
Why are you telling me to dress more modestly to
church when you should be gouging out your eyes? Idiot?

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Did you actually read the Bible? Oh the Lord that's
in there? Is it like if your eyes cause you
to sin, gat to the mouth or something.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, they were very literal in those times too. I
feel like I don't buy the whole like, well, it's
all metaphorm Like no, I feel like people were just
like stoning people to death and chopping off their hands
for stealing. Yeah, like, no, they did some shit. We
were extreme. Yes, thankfully now we have violent video games
to get that out.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
But back in the day, we actually had to chop
off people's hands and gouge out their eyes.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
But yeah, just that guy saying, and I react to
that way two, being like, oh yeah, you know it
does it can take ef I'm like, that's great. Let
it take effort and put in the effort. God bless
you seriously, so I will report how the state goes
because I don't find guys out in the wild that
I'm interested in dating. Like ever. I was trying to
think the last time that happened, and I think it
was twenty twenty one and it was someone who then
I went out with them or were like, oh no,

(07:17):
which might happen again, But it's just such a rare
experience that I would like right after we're done, I
like found a reason to ask him out, like chomp,
what'd you do? Are You're like, oh, hey, I just
wanted to thank you for the great day that we had. Also,
I think you get it gets easier to ask people
out and to find ways to do it given the circumstances.
And I ask people out every time, I don't actually

(07:38):
want to be asked out, because if if you have
seen me for more than twelve hours and I have
not asked you out, it means I don't want to
go out with you and I don't want you to
ask me. That is not true for a lot of people.
Women have been conditioned to not be instigators, and there
are some men I hear who don't like it. But
I've only had success in my strategies. I've only had
guys be like, oh wow, I love that you like

(08:00):
took the pressure off and we're clear about what you wanted,
Like that was great. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
And also the guys who are intimidated or don't like,
don't go out with them. You don't want to date
that guy.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
That's a litmus test right there. That's a really good point.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
We were there as part of a group and we
do other kinds of performances. So I waited until there
was a moment of like kind of more or less alone,
like oh yeah, great to meet you, and they was like,
you should come to one of our shows sometime. We
have something on Friday, like, I can send you the
details if you're interested, you know, if you want to
check it out, but still kind of in this vague
realm of like we could just be going to this
thing at the same time, we're not necessarily going together.

(08:35):
I love a safe Oh I was gonna check out
this thing? Did you want to go? Because then you're
not like, would you like to go out with me?
Would you like.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
Dinner at this one? Just the two of us.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
I highly recommend asking people out this way if they
say no, it's a lot gentler if it's kind of
a vague like, oh, I was saying you checking out
this thing? Are you interested in going? Because people should
get the hit and if they don't, you should be
able to figure it out right away. This isn't a
strategy more than once. If you're trying to go out
with someone and it's a second date in your mind

(09:06):
and they think you're just hanging out, you haven't executed
it correctly. This is just to get them out of
the environment where you met them, into one on one.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Space without it feeling like the pressure of a date.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
Correct. Yeah, don't let that go on too long, because
I so have known guys who are like, I think
it's a day, like we're going on a few days
and the gal is like I just thought we were
hanging out and that's happened vice versa too. I do
know some women who don't have the clearest read on
those things. And anyway, what was so funny was like
I was thinking about this and like, hmm, this coulda

(09:39):
be fun Like what will I send in the details?
Trying to listen to episodes about tradwives and like like
accidentally tune it out. I'm like, no, wait, women can't
be subservient to men. Fuck men. No, okay, back and
they oh what I'm gonnaware? No, no, get your head
in the games, sandry my hair, put on so much meigage.
Any meals should wear a pink fully dress.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
Get my best a line dress, go in my like
little kitten heel.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
Maybe an apron, I don't know, love that. Just go
just ball to the wall a pink bob. You show
up just the picture of fifty sous wife. But Alexis
is gonna get us started, sham you are You're gonna
go through I think like some definition, some history, we're

(10:29):
gonna get into some politics, racism, the usual spread, the
usual smattering, sad gap accoutremol.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
You know, just the regular checkbox.

Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yes, let's go. Oh, we're going, we're going, going, going, gone.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
Where have we just arrived? Question?

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yes, I just want a thought experiment. Yeah, when you
were growing up, did you ever have even when you
were like super tiny, baby little, did you ever have
the thought or ever got outside pressure to be a housewife.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
I never wanted to be, and growing up in a
conservative religious family, I was taught that that was the
ideal for women. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
So I My mom's a very interesting person. I just
remember when I was little, and I feel like a
lot of kids do this. You always ask your parents,
like when you were my age, what did you want
to be when you grew up? Like you know, you're
trying to say like astronaut, right, And that's what I
was expecting from my mom. And she would always say, oh,

(11:48):
I wanted to be a mom. I've always wanted to
be a mom.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
That's when my mom said too, right, And I was like, oh,
that's so sweet.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
And even as a little kid, I was like, oh,
she's saying that because like I'm a little kid, and
it's like a sweet thing to hear be like, oh,
I'm a mom and I always wanted to be a mom,
and like I'm so fulfilled being your mom. Yeah, but
I remember being older and I would ask her the
same thing and she's like, well, I just always wanted
to be a mom and being like kind of disappointed
and like feeling disappointed myself for being disappointed in her.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, that's complex for sure, because she also like she
always worked. She stayed at home with the kids like
for like maybe five years and not even necessarily sequentially
in her whole life, she always worked.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
She supported my dad for a little bit. Yeah, and
she even went to college for a little bit. So
it's not like she didn't have aspirations, right, But like today,
if I asked her, like, what do you want to
be growing up, She's like, I always just wanted to
be a mom.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
I don't remember being disappointed in my mom wanting that
but also knowing that it wasn't ever going to be
for me. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
Same, I was like, oh, I just I feel it
was like you're wasting your potential, but.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Also feeling like mad at myself for being mad.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
You know, that's like so unfair because I think being
a stay at home mom is like so hard and
not something that I want to do because it's too hard.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
We understand that now. I don't think I got that
as a.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
Kid at all, No, because I was just like I'm
a blast, Like I am not a problem at all.
I should be lucky to hang out with me all day.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Very easy to raise.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
There's not like a definitive definition of a trad wife,
but essentially I just kind of cut and pasted this
from Wikipedia together. So a tradwife is a woman who
believes in and practices traditional gender roles and marriages, and
the tradwife movement is a social media based subculture. Multiple platforms,
notably TikTok and Instagram are used to commodify and spread

(13:36):
the conservative ideologies underpinning the movement. So there is sort
of an aesthetic to the tradwife movement, and if you're
not familiar with it, it's probably come up in your
algorithm a couple times. Unfortunately for me, it has, but
I think a lot of it's from like feminist pages
that are like rage bait posting it. That's true because
when I was looking at this up, I was like, oh, yeah,
there's like these two girls that like always pop up

(13:58):
in my feed, but it's a lot of fun. Yes,
so Ballerita Farm for sure, and we'll talk about her.
And then also Nara Smith okay, and oh god, what's
her name? She looks like Maryly. She's like trying to
give fifties more than anyone else. Ever, firm is the
only one I know. But yet Yeah, so Nara Smith.
She's like twenty two. She's a model. She's married to

(14:18):
a model child bride, yes, honestly childbride. But she's like
she's the easiest to make fun.

Speaker 4 (14:24):
Of, only because she has like this really like kind
of an esthetized voice where she just sounds like this,
and she always does her head to a tilt, and
she makes everything from scratch. My kids today said they
wanted cinnamon toast crunch, So I went to the pantry
and milled my own weed and rolled out the dough,

(14:45):
shaved my own cinnamon. And she does everything from scratch
the whole time. She's literally a model, so she is
completely made up in like designer clothes and just her
head tilted to the side, trying to look as like
demure as possible as she just like just tries to
be like as a stead of as possible, like moving
up the dough with like our beautiful hens into the bowl.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
And it's really easy to be like, this is not
fucking real.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Right when you've become a parody of yourself, you're so
over the top. I no longer feel bad making fun
of you because that's not even you. That's no one.
No one is that no hope not.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
I sure is shit, hope not. But the tradwife movement,
so there is kind of an aesthetic to it, so
a lot of them kind of fall into the idea
of like the nineteen fifties housewives. A lot of them
wear like that kind of look with their hairs rolled,
they have the dress on, they have the apron, they
have the lipstick. But some of them just try to
look made up every day that you know, they don't

(15:40):
have a day like today where I'm wearing my fucking
sweatpants and no makeup like that, dude, those days do
not exist for the tradwives.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
You got a cool sweatshirt though, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
It's from Sheen. It's obviously super designer. I'm like really
keeping up with my looks here. But what I did
think about, because again, up until this, I'm not like
looking into the tradwife movement, but a lot of the
tradwives are actually involved in the Mormon Church, and a
lot of the big ones are Mormons, which makes kind
of sense when I'm thinking about it, and when I

(16:10):
watched the greatest reality TV show of all time last year,
The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. It's on Hulu. If
you guys love trash, it is the best trash I've
ever seen in my entire life. This is not a
plug in a way. It was in a way a
little bit, but unfortunately the tradwife movement also is full
of a lot of right wingers. I try to espouse
their rhetoric while esthetically making cereal from scratch. Like I said, so,

(16:34):
there is some overlap where a lot of them are
pro Trump, their pro gender roles, they're anti feminist, a
lot of them are white supremacists. A lot of them
kind of espouse trying to increase making more white babies. Yes,
and a lot of them have a shit ton of
fucking kids, and that's also part of their content. What

(16:57):
I feel like the right's trying to do right now
is trying to to say that a trad wife and
a housewife are interchangeable terms. They absolutely are not. So
this is a quote from a therapist named Rachel Goldberg
in this really good article I read from parents dot com,
of all places, it was an amazing article though.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
I mean, they got on that url first, so they
have to be kind of legit.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yes, and I think it's a magazine like Parents magazine.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah, remember when those used to be things. Yeah, you
would see there was a website after the magazine.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yes, But anyways, Rachel Goldberg says, unlike stay at home moms,
who may choose to stay at home for practical reasons
such as childcare or they simply enjoy household management, tradwives
adhere strictly to gender roles, driven by a distinct belief
in their necessity and virtue.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
That's what I'm going to talk about a little more
later too, of just are we making a conscious personal
choice or are we being subjugated? Yeah, there's a difference.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, And I think there's a two between being a
stay at home mom is like, Okay, there's a lot
of child rearing. I need to take care of all
the like domestic duties, et cetera. But I don't think
I should serve my husband, and I like shouldn't have
a credit card, and like women are subservient to men,
which some of these tradwives do believe in that, and

(18:10):
like the biblical sense of serving your husband. There was
a quote from another article and I didn't write this
girl's name down, but she's a tradwife in England. And
I just thought it was like interesting when they were
talking to her about like, oh, like all this tradwife
stuff because her mom was like a hard worker and
like worked her whole life, and you know, it was
like lower to middle class and this woman just was like,
I want to be a housewife and like really went.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
Gung holl on that.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
And they were talking to her and she says she
has this reverence for the nineteen fifties, but she said,
at least in the nineteen fifties, the stay at home
mom was noticed. She was revered. She was an advertisements.
We talked about her, we celebrate her. She was an
invisible force.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
She was an advertisement. Suddenly I have the picture of
all those like yeah and with the vacuum clean. They're
like drawing with the bob and the yeah headband.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
YEP.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
A lot of headbands. And I thought that was very
interesting because it's like, yeah, when you think about the
nineteen fifties, when you think about this Madman era, it's
an archetype.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yes, but she was she was revered, she was celebrated.
She wasn't this invisible force that you know, the kitchen's
just magically clean, and everything's just all the doctor's appointments
are made and all the school activities are done and
it's just like, you know, it happens with a lot
of magic, little fair and we don't talk about the
labor that goes behind it. At least it was like
this person's doing this stuff and we like it, and

(19:26):
she's cool, and she's suddenly to aspire.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
To true she had a share, a contribution was acknowledged
and appreciated, right, And.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Even though I feel like the intent was maybe more
nefarious of like this is your place, Yeah, this is
where you belong.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
We're not saying that that was a good perspective because
it came with a lot of dark sides.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
But at least there was some appreciation in some form,
because I feel like now there is so much rhetoric
of like being a stay at home mom is not working.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
There's so much of that. It's like, oh, yeah, she
doesn't work. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, she
she works.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
She be working.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
She doesn't go to an office, but she's working. I
have a broad question and maybe the answer is yes.
But can you be a trad wife? Or is that
just like a thing you are on social media? Are
there twenty two year old girls getting married who are like,
I'm going to be a trad wife? Or is it
more just there's kind of this character And I know

(20:22):
they are somewhat like that in their real lives, Like
I believe that they are living somewhat true to the
principles they espouse. But I was just kind of seeing
some articles about like, is this just like a social
media trend that is kind of influencing people? Or are
there people we're not seeing on social media who also
identify as trad wives? You don't have to know.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
That's a great question, because I think that is the
big difference here, is that the trad wife movement is
a social media movement. Yeah, it is inherently a social
media thing.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
Like I don't even I don't know of movement. I
know that's what people say online, but like, is it
even a movement or is it just kind of like a.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Tread And yeah, I think trad wives right in right.
I mean, I think it's great content because you can
watch it for so many different reasons, Like there's rage watching,
there's I mean a lot of them write about recipes,
a lot of them talk about like childcare advice or
things that work for them. A lot of it's like

(21:20):
aspirational because as I'll get into a lot of these
people have the privilege of not having to have a job.
They don't have to go clock in because their husband
does support them financially.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
But it's also kind of a tradwife corps in the
same way that ballet corps doesn't mean that you do ballet.
And I follow a lot of dancer accounts kind of
gently making fun of models doing ballet. There's one called
models doing Ballet and if you have a ballet background,
even if you don't, some of them are really obvious. Yes,
because it's an aesthetic now not a practice. Yes, so
there's a tradwife aesthetic and like kind of like, oh,

(21:55):
I'm so tradwife course, a tradewife day, it doesn't necessarily
mean you're staying home with kids. It is being supported
by your husband making everything.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
From scratch, Yes, and I think that is a lot
of it is that it's an aesthetic, it is an
identity that you have on social media. Because as all,
I was going to get into this, but this is
the perfect time to talk about this. They are working,
they're making content, and a lot of times they're monetizing
this content, like and do you have jobs they do,

(22:23):
and especially like Ballerina Farmers we'll get into she has
ten million followers on Instagram.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, but that's a really good point that the whole
theology around like, oh, I'm going to stay at home
and not work while being a content creator, which is
literally so much more full time job.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yes, it's a fucking it's a role, but not in
the way that it's like the wifely role.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
But good point that there's so much appeal to that
kind of content because some people go on TikTok or
reels or whatever because they want to see cooking tutorials,
and some people want to see parenting things, and some
people want to see how to die your clothes at home,
and like, what if we just had one account for
all of them, all these markets, which none of them
appeal to me because I'm the least domestic homie person
in the world. Someone of heard me Melotone and tea

(23:05):
last night when I was staying at a friend's house,
and I said, I'm kind of more of the like,
fall asleep in your clothes without brushing your teeth type
of girl. I don't need any Camo mile tea, but
thank you, thank you for that. You're like, that's such
a such a vibe. Yeah, I was like, that's so
nice that you drink tea before bed instead of just
watching cartoons high and then pass out without meaning to.
But I love your tea.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
I love you.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
I love that tea. I said it, you know, hopefully
in a funny way and not meaning to be patronizing.
But yeah, this style of internet content is not for me.
But it absolutely has a very rich following of other people.
Mm hmm. And I think that's probably how it got
a good following because a lot of them, too, live
on land, so they're like trying. It's like a little
cottage quarry.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
It's a little bit like, oh, we're homesteading, and like
you said, it's like we're naturally dyeing our clothes we're
making our own clothes, like I'm growing the material. This
is an endless content fucking machine, content farm. Yeah, but
let's talk about Ballerina Farm because I think she is
the most integral part of the history of the modern

(24:08):
tradwife movement.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
What an accomplishment.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, I mean, you can't do this research without her
name being blasted true in the article. Yes, the handle
is Ballerina Farm, but the woman behind it is named
Hannah Needleman Neilman. Hannah Nielman is her name, And she's
actually a Juilliard trained ballerina who gave up her dream
to be a professional dancer so she could be a wife.

(24:33):
And she has the luxury of not having a quote
unquote job, even though she is a huge content creator
and probably makes fucking bookoo bucks. But her husband is
the son of the owner of Jet Blue Airlines Classic yep, baby,
Neo baby.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
That's the thing.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
It's like she's this aspiration, like, Oh, I have all
these kids and we live on a farm, and we
nook our their own cows and cooking, and also my
stove costs thirty thousand dollars and there's only so many
people that are even qualified to install it heat.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
That's like when we talk about being ethical is expensive.
It is not accessible to make your own things, to
avoid plastic. None of that is easy unless you have
financial backing exactly.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
And it's like yeah again, same thing. This is aspirational
in the sense of like, you know, they're somewhat self sustained,
where it's like they haven't. You know, they have a farm,
they have animals, they grow food, they do all the
stre free.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
Those solar panels didn't come with the house. No, And
they're on acres and ach like I think it's something
like three hundred something acres of land.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Also not free, No, and I can't And I think
it's in Utah, which it's not like they're in fucking No.
No shade to this state, but it's not like fucking Iowa.
Like Utah's a state where a lot of people live.
There's a lot of fucking Mormons, and they are fucking Mormon.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
Of course they are. I know that doesn't I kind
of knew. Oh, I didn't know how much overlap there was,
but I definitely associate Mormonism, which I don't. I used
to know more about it because I had a very
good friend growing up who's Mormon, and my family was
like very anti Mormonism because it's not our particular culture religion,
therefore it's evil and wrong.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Right, of course, we have a lot.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
Of interesting, interesting practices and beliefs, and so do all
the culture religions. But I think there's some of what
I heard was especially bizarre, but also very much like
big families, lots of traditional values. Hell, yeah, yes, I
find Mormonism fascinate. Maybe an episode on that, Yes I'm

(26:36):
a Stingle.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
We went to Salt Lake City and we went to
like the Mormon Temple and the Tabernacle and all that stuff,
and like we talked to them and we're just like,
I want you to tell me all about this because
I find it, like I cannot stress how fascinating I
find it. They have weird in the Mormon Temple, the
big one in Salt Lake City. They have secret floors
where you have to be like a certain level of Mormon,
and it's like they have models of it so you

(26:58):
can kind of see what it looks like. It's like
weird stuff where it's like a weird carousel where they
have like brass oxes and it's like a weird ceremony
room and all this shit.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
It's just so fucking interesting. I love it.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
Anyways, Yeah, so Neilman. Another controversial thing that happened was
she participated in the Missus not the miss the Missus
Utah pageant, which she won, and then went to the
Missus USA pageant, which she won, and then went to
Missus World, which I don't think she won but loser, right,
so she did. I think it was the Missus USA

(27:33):
pageant twelve days postpartum after her eighth kid.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Seems not safe somehow, I don't know what did you
need to cut out of you to make that happen?

Speaker 2 (27:43):
Well, and apparently after this eighth kid, because of course
she also, you know, only gives birth at home with
no drugs, and she just you know, perfectly. I'm sure
she doesn't sweat or scream or anything. It just comes
on out.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
Was she the one that there was a trod too?
I've heard about it podcast. Who was like, oh, my
husband wasn't there for one of my births, so I
was able to get an epidural.

Speaker 4 (28:04):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
Okay, that's her, that's her.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yep. Great, Yeah, she said to this journalist, oh yeah,
he wasn't able to be there, and this baby was
really late, so I had to go to a hospital
and then I got an epidural. And the journalist was like,
so do you enjoy that? And she like looked around
before she answered.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
She was like, yeah, it was really great. Cool. Yeah,
you go through all that effort, you don't even get
to choose what to do with your body. That's nice. Nice, yep.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
And that's the thing he doesn't want her to have,
like a hospital birth and all this. It's just they
want everything to just be a fucking aesthetic.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Really is she want well? I mean, apparently she said.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
After her eighth baby, she was a one push baby,
and she just kind of I mean I think after
you have eight kids, it gets pretty fucking easy.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
Then you just fall out walking around the house making
your cereal.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, like what I really at that point, you're like,
this isn't my first rodeo And if this is, you know,
not her first or second or third natural birth, she's like, well,
I'll just pass out and from pain until this baby
comes out.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
But anyway, she was twelve days postpart of during this pageant,
and apparently she said like a couple days before she
was still bleeding from the birth and was still like
swollen and like could barely get out of bed, and
she like wanted to give up at her husband was like, no,
you've worked so hot, working out and spray tanning and
doing all this other.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
Shit because she's a reflection of him, and she's an
extension of him, so she doesn't get to have a tonomy.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
Right, And it's also supposed to again, it's an unattainable
goal for a regular person. I'm doing beauty pageants, I
have eight kids, I'm cooking, I have a fucking farm.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
I can't even start easy. No, it's ridiculous. This is insanity.
Literally not even one of those items on my ability list.
I will say, though, I thought the beauty pageant thing
was weird, but apparently she didn't have like quite a
lot of money growing up, and she went to Juilliard,
so she actually did pageants like in high school and
college to help. Like there were like scholarship ones where

(29:55):
it's like, if you win, you get a scholarship money
to college. I feel like you'd make a lot more
money waitressing. I agree. I'm just saying, like I don't
really buy the like I did it just to make
some money. Like I am sure there is money and pageants,
but that's not why people do them. They're trying to change.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
The rhetoric of pageants where it's like, oh, they're like philanthropic.

Speaker 1 (30:16):
And it's like, so you can have always to do
that episode too.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, beauty pageants are also a fascination for me.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
I like doing things that are vain. I'm a performer, But.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
I call it what it is, right, I give me attention. Yeah,
seriously call it what it is people. But yeah, So
she's kind of the pinnacle of the tradwife movement. She
says she doesn't identify with it, and I will say,
compared to the others, I don't, I feel like what

(30:47):
I think of a tradwife, I'm not thinking of like
kind of her thing because her husband's also like involved
and he's not like I've heard a lot of the
other husbands of other tradwives kind of be like, you know,
war handfisted, where it's like I'm saying the thing out loud,
I'm saying the quiet part out loud, like the woman's
supposed to be at home, I say, But he's more

(31:07):
like we're co CEOs of our family.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Right, he's playing kind of a different part in this story.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
But he also like talks over her a lot and
answers for her, doesn't let her have time alone with
this journalist, and it still like seems a little bit
more nefarious behind the scene. But she's you know, in
plaid and jeans and cowboy boots, like on the farm,
milking the cows, and so it's she's not just wearing

(31:33):
like the fifties housewife dress and like pretending like all
she does is you know, I bet part of.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Our popularity is because that's almost more relatable. It's like, oh,
she can wear pants and her husband seems like a
good guy, right, so now we can like her.

Speaker 4 (31:45):
Right.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
But also people did call her out be like, oh,
I didn't realize he was the fucking trust fund baby
of the jet blue empire. Yeah, because that also changes
the aspirational quality of it. I can't aspire to that.
There's no fucking way I'm gonna have you know in
law that has billions of dollars.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
I mean, your husband could die.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Oh come on, rich man, I'm just saying it's not
like there's no way. No, I'm just saying, like you're
totally right. Didn't even think about this.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Sorry, he's out there right now.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Just find it like an octagenarian with like a huge
like bank account, le Smith, like, I love this.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, possible.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
So this article was really interesting, and obviously it'll be
in our sources. But something I found like depressing about
all of this was so she was a ballerina. She
loved dancing. She has her kids and dance, and they
said this was all their dream, but it seems more
like his dream. And she said the only thing that
she wanted on this land was a studio so she
could continue doing ballet. They built it and now it
is the schoolhouse for their children.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Damn broken dreams. Yep.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
While he has his huge farm, he has his stay
at home trophy wife, he has all the kids. They
have a business selling their artisanal meats and whatever other
products from their farm. But she wants a fucking dance
studio and it's like, nope, you don't even get to
have that.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
Well, that would just be for her, not for the kids,
for the family, for him, which sounds like ultimately everything
comes back to him. I understand she's benefiting it from
it as well, but she's downplaying the broken dreams part
and said just focusing on like, here's the thing we
want together.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Exactly, And it seems like, yeah, but you're kind of
fulfilling his dream while saying like, no, we both wanted. No, bitch,
you wanted to be a ballerina. You went to Juilliard
em and apparently she was the she got pregnant while
she was actually she was married, but got pregnant while
she was at Juilliard, And apparently she was the youngest
mother at Juilliard in modern history.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
I mean, I'm sure everyone knows just from reputation, but
it's an absurdly competitive school. It's a dream come true
for people. It's like putting Harvard on your resume, but
for the arts. It's not the kind of school where
you follow through with your pregnancy once you get in.
I'm sure she's not the youngest person who could have
had an abortion.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
She's definitely not the youngest person to be pregnant at Juilliard.
But as far as actually having a baby and having
a pregnancy too, try that was wanted.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, And why do I suspect she wasn't on birth
control when she got pregnant. Maybe she didn't mean to
get pregnant, but she also didn't not get pregnant on purpose.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Correct.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, apparently they say they just listen to God.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
She doesn't practice birth control.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
She just asked God if it's supposed to happen, and
he lets her know. I asked him and he told
me that no one should do that. So it kind
of cancels out.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
So true. Yeah, whose direct line to God is more truthful?

Speaker 1 (34:25):
I mean, obviously mine.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
I agree. I said so because I said up, because
I talked to God personally.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
That quote from that guy last week talking about vocal
Fry who was like, I have nothing to back this up,
but I know it is true, and I just I
just cried love me. I was like, same, bestie, same.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
I also know in my heart of hearts that it
is brittly is So that's kind of what I have
for the history of all the tradwives. And then my
other last bullet point to cover was devil's advocate of this.
Let's talk about what is the appeal of being a
trad wife. What's the appeal of all of this?

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Wait, I gotta put on my horns. Okay, God with
the devil, Well, I guess we're just the advocate for him. Yeah, yeah,
that's true. We're not the could be a demon.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Oh yeah, okay, yeah, totally demon. I got the all
blackout eyes.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Instead of calling it Devil's advocate, we start calling it
like demon boy or something. Instead of your playing Devil's advocate,
you're playing demon because that's kind of yeah, that's the role.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
You gotta watch Supernatural.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
I tried. I didn't. I didn't like it, but I
could try more.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Well, it's the same creator and showrunner as The Boys. Hooked.

Speaker 4 (35:39):
There you go.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Last time that got me from Preacher the Boys. It's
because it's only Network TV and you said I had
to start at the beginning and it's old and it's
on network TV. So just the pacing the content, like
the censorship, like it's noticed, the commercial breaks. It's just
noticeably really different than streaming services and kind of out
of the habit. But the way, you know, but the
way it was shot is to accommodate for commercial breaks,
so they pace it. We're closing out this season. Things

(36:02):
are written intentionally for streaming services now when they're put
out on those services, and it's just a really different
art form. I didn't mind until now I've rotted my
brain with this is the way shows are now expecting
you to binge it. So it was hard for me
to be like, oh wait, now we're doing the like
cliffhanger at the end and the guy does the face
and then we like slowly fade and it's like kind

(36:22):
of looks hokey now, but that's part of the fun.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
You can remember a simpler time called two thousand and five.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
I didn't like it then either. Nothing was good.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
I just couldn't drink. So so I saw this reel, yeah,
and it was this divorce lawyer and I guess someone
was asking him. It was like obviously a cut clip,
and they were asking him like how many second marriage
divorces do you get? Like in your office? And he's like,
that's not the correct question to be asking. He goes,
the question you need to be asking is what do

(36:52):
people divorce for?

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Now?

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Like, what is the number one reason people file for divorce?
And it's because women are working, they're paying half the bills,
and they're doing one hundred percent of the labor, and
they have cannot get their husband to change or help
or anything, and they try and try and try, and
then they just get fed up with it, and that's

(37:13):
why I'm seeing the divorces time and time again. First
marriage is second marriages, third marriages doesn't matter. It's usually
a little bit less.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
It's definitely the first marriages more so than the second marriages.
But he's like, but I still get second marriages with
the same thing. I would love to see that in
journal data because I believe it one hundred percent, but
I just know the retort is like, well, that was
the one guy saying something, well, exactly, that's subjective. I
want it to be in and they still won't believe it.
But I want to see it in the journal of
whatever psychology, and then at least I'll feel better because

(37:41):
I can point to it. Because there's this idea that
I hear more often in other spheres where it's like, well,
marriages aren't lasting because women just aren't content and they
just want too much and they're just not happy, and
it's very much placing blame on them for having these
absurd expectations.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
Well, yeah, and I think that's hilarious because it's actually
the men's absurd expectations where I'm expecting you to a
full time job, pay half.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
The bills and also do one hundred percent of the
domestic work. And maybe that wasn't absurd when you were
working as well, but if your wife also works, this
is not the same thing.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
Nope, that's the thing. So my devil's advocate is, oh, yeah, sorry,
I forgot we were No you do that. My double's
advocate is, if this is such a pervasive problem in society,
then fuck you due yeah, pay for me.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
If I'm going to already do one hundred percent of
the domestic work, no matter if I work or not, sorry,
work at a job quote unquote or not, no, fuck
you pay me.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
I have a great reel as well to share, and
I completely agree with all of that. And we'll find
more things like that to post as we go. I
feel like they pop up in our feeds. Oh yeah,
but this lady is like men, you think she's a
gold digger. I'm a gold digger. I own land. She's
like I own a plane, like I am a gold digger. Right,

(38:59):
That's why I think so as a little devil, it
was meant to be. I think she's our demon, or
maybe just in my mind, I was like, yeah, little
devil girl, she's just wearing all red i'll post it.
Should we take a second break, let's do it our

(39:32):
last episode on vocal Fry, which I just did a
little bit of there. Ironically, we were having hardware issues
and I think it sounds okay, but it also kind
of sounds to me like we have vocal fry the
whole time. So fun It's funny because we're talking about
annoying voices and then we're being so annoying. Yeah, yeah,
it's pretty It's it's not our best, but I take

(39:55):
very little responsibility. It is not our equipment. Question for you, oh,
is the tradwive movement really a lifestyle choice or is
it political? And if so, who's politics? Yes?

Speaker 2 (40:11):
Yes, I know Republicans, okay or all right? It gets
pretty right.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
So, while some women in the movement do see it
as a personal preference, is tied also to larger political
and ideological narratives. People in the movement can claim it's
just a personal choice and we are all entitled to
our personal choices, but these movements, these narratives, they affect
more than just individual people. And yes, the politics that

(40:42):
it intersects with the most are on the more conservative
and Republican side, and we have these very far right
politicians who don't come out and say I want y'all
to be trad wives, but they might say, like JD Vance,
that he prefers higher birth rates and traditional families over

(41:03):
the childless cat ladies.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
I'll say, I'm shitting on the childless cat ladies, and
me being like, listen, yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
I had something to say. He printed some kind of
retraction about that, but it was clearly just in response
to the backlash. I didn't and I don't believe he
even wrote it.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
No, and he definitely believes it because he said it
so like cavalierly, just like I'm these childless cant ladies.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Mike Pence also a proponent of policies that promote traditional marriage.
He has talked about his concerns about the impact of
changing gender roles. It's tearing apart society.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, that's what's doing it.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
And speaking of Mike Pence and Jade Vance, Trump in
January of twenty twenty five signed the executive order that
requires federal agencies remove any reference to gender ideology, which
is such a funny framing, like I don't really understand
it could be cast as ideology. So these tradition. Gender

(42:00):
distinctions are also more in line with the values of
being a traditional wife. It made me wonder, though, if
a gay man could be a trad wife, and if
he does, how many millions of followers would he have
wearing a pretty dress and staying home while his man's
went to work. I would probably follow that, And if
no one's doing that, do it, because that in itself
is subversive, because that's breaking down these traditional values while

(42:24):
holding on to the supposed part of it that's the
most important, right, which is that like, oh, you should
stay home, and you should support your partner, and you
should be natural and things like the fact that we
is kind of comedic to picture a gay man doing
that is shedding light on the fact that it is
about more than just partnership family. It's about a man

(42:46):
and a woman, Yes, a straight man and a straight
woman playing this out well.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
And that's a lot of their ideology too. Is anti LGBTQ.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
I just started thinking as I was looking at this,
like it's not always explicit, and I think there are
a lot of young people who could be looking at
this with a positive light, who are not anti LGBT,
who are just looking at like, oh, when I get married,
I would love to be a homesteader. So I was
trying to look at it, like, is it explicitly and

(43:17):
Holly these negative connotations with it? Maybe not, but the
fact that that's what it's based upon is important to acknowledge.
If you are a person who is not racist, anti
queer rights and all of that, like, maybe you need
to question your interest in it considering that's the base.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
But that's why I think it is important to define
the difference between trad wife, the quote unquote movement versus
I want to be a stay at home partner.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
I think that a lot of the young girls who
follow Ballerina Farm and are thinking I want to be
a trad wife aren't necessarily anti gay rights or white
nationalists themselves, but I think they're being programmed in a
direction without realizing it. And this will come up minute too.
The basis of the quote unquote movement, which we've already
kind of identified as a social media trend, is traditional

(44:08):
in more ways than just family structure. All the people
who are millions of people who are watching it, I
don't think they all are, But if that's what you're
being fed, then if you are not those things, then
make sure to be critical of where it's coming from, right.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
Like, are you just watching it because it's aesthetic, It's yeah,
it's cooking, it's parenting advice, it's I do want to
be a stay at home parky.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I could totally imagine being a younger
girl and knowing like I want to get married, I
want to have kids. I mean, like this is so cool,
Like I love the idea of living out the land. Yeah,
I don't want to go to work either, But even
tradwife leaning more into the like I'm going to be
the homesteader and do things so naturally and I'm not
going to live in the city. It's coming from a

(44:49):
very nefarious place, but all of the people watching it
don't know that yet. Right. It's really subversive exactly. So
I don't want to say, like, if you want to
be a tradwife someday, it means you hate gay people
and you're racist. It means you're not looking at this
critically enough, which is well, we're here for right.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
Well, And it's like when you're doom scrolling and the
shit's just popping up and it's like, oh, this is
really well lit and the production value is really high.
You're not really like critical race theory.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
I'm just like, Oh, it has captions. I might watch
it noe board looking at memes again. Yep, Okay, Oh,
I just started calling it tradwifery in my notes because
I think trad wife movement sounds kind of silly. I
don't know, I know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
Tradwiffery his wife.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Yeah, you're right, because wifery is. But is whiffrey a
word either, Yeah, midwiffrey, tradwiffrey. Yeah. It explicitly aligns with
what have been considered conservative family values. We want women
to not have a place in leadership and not be
going to work, we want them raising children. Opposition to

(45:51):
reproductive freedom, and there's this now perceived breakdown of the
nuclear family and this moving away from all of that
that now the tid wif vibes are saying, let's go
back there. I'm just here to say it comes with
more than you might think.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yes, that's that's my notes. I want to bring up.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
It's like, it's not as it's way more complicating. Gustart
thinking correctly, there's a reason we got rid of that model.
The political involvement element here too, of like is it political,
because I understand if someone's like, no, like I just
am making you know, I just want to do this thing.
I'm just like this part of it. I'm not anti this, like, no,
it's not put But the problem is that politics shape

(46:32):
are access to contraception, to abortion, to parental family leave,
and those three things specifically, if those are not prioritized,
then we're not really allowing people to have the option
between this more old school style of partnership and the
childless cat lady future, which is the road I'm on.

(46:52):
There absolutely is an overlap here in celebrating these values
and politics and the effect that that has on other
people beyond it just being a personal choice. And there's
an article called shield Maidens, fasci Fems, and Tradwives. It
was published in Frontiers and Psychology, and it's about how
certain right wing movements they will praise these traditional gender

(47:16):
roles also as a way of reinforcing nationalism and patriarchy. Obviously,
so if I'm a tradwife, the man is the head
of the house, wouldn't I also want a male president.
I mean it just extends from here. Clearly that if
you're celebrating something in the home, it's going to condition
people to expect that out in the world. Yeah. Researchers

(47:41):
have even argued that the tradwife aesthetic can intentionally be
used as a gateway. I skimmed some articles here. I
don't like vague things, like researchers have argued, if you
go through all my sources, I'm sure you'll find something there.
It is definitely a thing. I saw multiple places of
like different just kind of people raising alarms. I don't
think there's a ton of psych studies on this yet,
but people just saying like, hey, I think this is intentional. Yeah,

(48:04):
like we want to appeal to the youths, and when
we call this like traditionalism empowering, it'll pull people in yep,
and then they're gonna move toward other for o right opinions.
It's a heatway drug.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
It's a slippery slope. But now I listen to a
really good podcast. They basically just read an article about
how there's a big movement and we talked about this
before about gen Z women kind of gravitating towards tread Wiffrey.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah, it's not gonna stick.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
It was a good point because it's like sort of
in the same way that gen Z is kind of
rebelling against college, they're kind of doing more trades and
things like that, because I think the problem is they've
seen some of the downsides of what millennials have gone
through with this, like girl boss feminism, and like how
that hasn't really panned out for us and it's only
because we continue the patriarchy. But it's hard to see

(48:52):
that when you go in depth. It's like we're working
our asses off, we're making money, we're paying the shit,
but we're still doing the domestic duty and it's like
it's not really working out the way we thought it would.
But it's not because of the failures of women. It's
about the failures of the patriarchy.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
So I get where they're like, the patriarchy is succeeding. True. True,
I know what you mean that women are being failed
because of the patriarchy, And I get.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
Where they're like, well, why would I want to go
to work when I could just stay home and do
the domestic duty, which I would already be doing anyways,
and then just support my partner who would support me.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
That's why Ballerina Farm is so palatable to people. She's
wearing pants, her husband seemingly right. It's supportive and nice,
and I don't think our people are gonna fall for this,
but if anyone does, or if you have any friends
and need to be snatched out of tradwife talk, just
looking at these articles, these places where she says like wow,

(49:47):
I actually got to have an epidural because my husband
wasn't watching, or like wow, I really wanted a dance studio,
but I never get to have one, even though I
make all this fucking money from this thing. That's not
a utopian existence either. I'm not saying that the girl
boss misery of the geriatric millennials is going great for me,
But even if I did want kids and I did
want to stay at home, I don't want to be

(50:09):
associated with anything that subjugates women full stop, exactly.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
And this movement is under the pretense that your husband
isn't a piece of shit.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Which as we know, rarely happens.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
Yeah, And I think the only slight difference that I
think again can cause this sort of appeal to gen
Z is like in the fifties, if you beat the
shit out of your wife or subjugated your wife or
you know, did all this shit, or like, you know,
you financially abused her, emotionally abused her, raped her, et cetera.
That was all fine, that was par for the course.
Maybe it was unnecessary evil, whatever, it was more socially acceptable.

(50:44):
Now that isn't socially acceptable. It's not socially acceptable to
beat up your partner, to emotionally abuse them, to you know,
use their finances against you. So I think women have
this idea because it's more socially unacceptable, that this man
will then treat me well so it won't be a trap.
I'll have a nice man who's.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Super nice to me and just like supports me, and
I just cook him dinner and give him a martini
and it's like no.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Usually when you get married, that's when the monster comes out.
If they're a piece of shit, they're not going to
show you their true colors before that.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
It's true, it takes people usually that first bad experience
to realize that it is very easily to be manipulated
by someone who you think you trust completely. All your
instincts say yes, your friends like him, your therapist likes him.
Everything seems fine. The mask can fall off and oh yeah,
I mean at least men having more traits of machiavellianism. Machiavellianism,

(51:36):
thank you. That's a fun word too.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
I love that word.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Fourth child. They do that's been back to up. Men
are allowed to get away with shit, so they do
it more. They're not held accountable, so they learn the
wrong things, and even though they have the potential to grow,
nothing forces them to except two angry girls ranting on
their podcast.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
But yeah, the only reason we even have this kind
of societal you know, expectation now where you shouldn't be
doing that shit is because of feminism. It's because we're
trying to hold them accountable. It's because we're getting rights,
it's because we're telling them, fuck you go away. It's
because of the progress of feminism that we even get
to have.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
This shit that even maybe this universe could be safe
for a woman, right. It is because of the strides
of feminism, right, and the idea of like, let's go
back to super traditional gender roles. It's a slippery fucking
slope because the next thing, it's, well, then you don't
need a bank account. Oh well, then you don't need to.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Be able to you know, get a mortgage. Well, then
why would you need to do that? Because you know
your husband's the breadwinner, he's the provider, he's gonna do
all that. Why do you You don't worry, You're pretty
little ahead about that.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
Yes, And then going back to the nationalism, the racism
of it all. Obviously, when you think of a tad wife,
it's a white woman, a white family, and a white husband.
And that's a article in the Frontier Psychology Journal. It
came out of the Department of Government and Justice Studies
at Appalachian State University. And it wasn't a study, but

(52:58):
it was an essay that had like eight hundred sources
at the bottom. So I was like, it seems pretty.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Good linked academic.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
It was definitely. Yeah, it was not an op ed
on Jezebel, although I would still cite that, but in
this case it wasn't. But she was talking about how
when you think of the all right, you think more
of the manisphere, you think of dudes, the red pill. Yeah,

(53:25):
and when a woman is a white nationalist, she's able
to soften this perspective, right, And it's under this GUIs
of like, oh, it's just a return to vintage of values.
We missed the domesticity of the household. Should we talk
about what it was like to be a person of
color in the nineteen fifties, Like it wasn't fucking great, right.

(53:45):
White women were active in the klu Klux Klan, in
the American Nazi Party and neo Nazi groups. They're just
not the face of it because women are also devalued
under the principles of these bigoted groups. So they may
not have a voice, but they can certainly organize a
church social or a clan picnic.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, and white women voted for Trump overwhelmingly, well over
fifty percent, not overwhelmingly, but I think it was like
almost sixty percent of white women voted for Trump.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
Too many. Yeah, So it's white women who can publicly
state that they think it's important to submit to their
husbands and return to the good old days, which where
when neither women or people of color were allowed to vote.
And that's a lot easier to ingest than a man
coming out and saying.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
That it's more palatable anything coming from a woman, even
like all of our AI voices or all women and
both sexes prefer hearing things from women.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
Yes, Tradwiffrey. It centers white, middle to upper class women,
and there is an amount of privilege that's totally necessary
to have a lifestyle like this while ignoring how racism
and classism control the access you could have to this
tradwife life. There's no acknowledgement of that as far as

(55:00):
I know, coming from anyone in the traadwife TikTok world.
And I don't think every person who likes that content
or who wants to be that is a race piece
of shit. However, once your views kind of start overlapping
with like neo Nazis, I think it's time to take
a closer look. Yeah, if you and the Nazis are

(55:21):
agreeing on a point way, maybe reevaluate it. So the
feminist critique of it all, I mean, it's pretty self explanatory, like,
but why not, let's explain it anyway. There's a paradox here.
Feminism stands for the right of women to make their
own choices, and if you want to be a stay
at home mom, you do get.

Speaker 4 (55:42):
To do that.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
Like, that's wonderful, it's your choice, But as long as
it wasn't what your parents or your church trained you
to do, and you were never able to break free
and freely understand your choices. Feminism is also the right
to choose yes.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
First and foremost, and if you want to choose to do.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
That, we support you. Mm hmm. But that's why we
pushed it to That's why we push it to. Know
there are political changes being made back by the ens.
It can be darker, size makes sense. It definitely made
sense at the time.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
Sometimes it'd be like that. Sometimes we just be writing.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
I'm gonna try reading this thing out loud that I
wrote like an hour ago, and it doesn't make sense.
But maybe it does not loud. But that's why we
pushed it too. No, there are political changes being made
backed by the tenants of tradwives.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Yeah, that does make sense.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Great, moving on, Well, I was also going to point
out when you.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
Were talking about politics and like if they if it
does affect politics. One of the tradwives that I mentioned,
that's one of the big ones on there was literally
on Fox News and the segment was called Tradwives being Attacked.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
That's so funny. Yeah, that's what we're doing right now.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
Yeah, they're pushing the narrative that people are fighting against
traditional values and people that want to make their own
choices are being subjugated by the liberal agenda.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
I see. Okay, So what this crazy woman who makes
O so my laptop was trying to say was that
everything that trad Wiffery stands for is affecting political change,
and that's just reinstating this Like. This isn't isolated, This
isn't just like oh I like that she makes bread,
like I would like to do that too. I don't know.
I mean, I don't think we're calling for like a

(57:22):
boycott of content given or like social media might be
an area where boycott could work because individuals don't have
the kind of funding that a corporation does to back them.
They don't have their little spider legs at everything.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
They're not webbed.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
Around, they're not so technically sure we got enough people
to follow, Yeah, that could that could make their empire fault,
but they'd actually probably they would still have a martyrdom well.
And they'd also have sponsorships. Yes, yes, And I feel
like endorsements and sponsorships, even if you lose a good
portion of your following, you'll still have If you're going

(57:57):
from millions even down to thousands, you can still sell
sex toys absolutely with the coupon code Ballerina farm Adam
dot com. Let's bring her down to there. What I
was getting out is that I don't think you need
to change everything you view. It's more like, what are
you doing with that? What are you celebrating? I watch

(58:18):
a lot of things I don't agree with. I give
people views for things that I hate. I hate follow
a lot of account Yeah, I hate the range to
watch tons of shit. Yeah. And if you're watching something
because you want to learn how to make bread, and
they call themselves a trid wife. But you know the
darker side of this, that's just it. That's just education
and awareness, right, that's the thing. Because there's a darker

(58:38):
side of celebrating these nice weht ladies with their nats
and the white children in their homeschooled NASA in a
wet neighborhood. Like doesn't that just on its own, it's
like a broader cultural pushback on all of the accomplishments
of feminism. It's a step backward.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
And I think a lot of that has to do
with we live in such a in comparison to history.
There's still a long way to goo. We live in
such a privileged where most of us that are alive
haven't had to go through the trials and tribulations that
our parents' grandparents great grandparents had.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
To, and we kind of had all of these rights
from the geto. So we don't know what it's like
when it's like I can't get an abortion, I can't
get a credit card, my husband can rate me. You
think that, like, well, I would never get an abortion anyway.
You don't know, you get something horrible happens. I don't
want to plant the idea of like what if you
get pinned to the ground, Like you should just want

(59:29):
these options to be available in the world, even if
you don't want them for yourself. Don't do anything to
jeopardize that for yourself for other people in the future. Exactly,
just because you don't want to get one, cool, awesome,
don't get one. Don't get one. Yeah, there was a
woman I met who I think she was in her seventies.
Does that make sense time wise? Maybe she was older.

(59:49):
She was saying how disappointed she was in kids these
days because she's a very liberal woman, and she was saying, like,
I can't believe how much effort like I put in
seventies would make sense. She was like, I was burned
my bra Like what are y'all doing? She's like, I
did this for you? Yeah, I'm sorry. So Helsey middle ground,
I was like, I guess we're getting there anyway of

(01:00:10):
like what do we how do we compromise here? I'm
saying like, you don't have to, you know, and follow
a ballerina farm if you like to watch her make
SI Yeah, like I mean you could. But a healthy
way to look at this is just yes, if you
like taking care of your home and the domesticity and
your partner, and you decide that is great, and it's

(01:00:30):
an equal distribution of work, and it's a conscious, educated
choice and no judgment. And your husband's not a piece
of shit. If you want a trad wife, you got
to be a tad husband. And see that's what they
don't fucking understand. Duh. But it feels overall like there's
this shift away from the feminist strides that we've been

(01:00:51):
making since the seventies, and this is at least aiding that.
I don't know if it's gonna ruin it or change
everything in any meaningful because overall I do kind of
just see it as a social media trend. But let's
not make it easier to put women back in a
subservient position.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
Correct.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
We worked too hard to get here, and they would
love to They would take us so far back. I mean,
I know, you mean it's funny to be like them
the man. The man's sexist, misogynistic men who would never
even identify as such. They are that way anyway, I am, missanders. Wait,

(01:01:36):
did you e avernything else? There was a quote from
an MPR podcast. Oh yeah, that one's fine, Okay, I'm
just double checking my notes.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
It was just an argument that a lot of the
right wing. Their idea is that women need to go
back to their like biological destiny of like being mothers.
I can follow their logic. I don't agree with it,
but I can follow it where it's like, right, women.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
I can produce children. That's what I'm supposed to do.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Right, My cave woman lizard brain is like make babies. Sure,
But then they're also their argument is we need to
remember our biological need to be subservient to our husbands
and go back to being wives and mothers.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, I get
the baby thing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
I'm supposed to be subservient to this chubby little potato
that I pushed out of my vagina. Absolutely, I have
zero biological drive to be subservient and serve hayu.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
No, even just kind of thinking of what we learned
in May Charochy episodes or in animal studies, I'm not
seeing any evidence where.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
We're supposed to serve adult grown men who can feed themselves.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Oh wait, sorry, sorry, did you remember it's in the Bible?
Oh my god, book, Oh my god. I brought about
that science book, the Bible, science book, Bible coolon science book.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
My favorite science textbook, the Bible. Have you heard of it?

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
That's a good point, and ah god, we have like
three episodes suggestions day already for all of them. But
another one would be combating the notion that women are
supposed to be submissive, because that is real, fake news
that's been around for a real long time and we
should knock it down. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
I love all those memes where it's like the idea
that women are supposed to be subservient when men make
great soldiers.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
And office workers. Yep, I am missanders memes on Instagram,
and I am tx scoth GF and we are sad
Gap dot Podcast. You can email us at sad Gap
dot Podcast at gmail dot com. You can visit our
website sad gapdash podcast dot com. We have a po
box now visit our website. We already did that. We've

(01:03:42):
got Instagram, we already did that. We've got read it.
We just there's so much.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
We're on all the things up discord.

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
We're not on TikTok, not on TikTok. No. We're not
on Blue sky No or red note or Twitter or YouTube.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
Oh my, oh okay, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
So much work to do. But we are at the
post office now rather than your original social media, the USPSOG.
If you want to find anything like that, it's probably
in the link tree on our Instagram. Take it away.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Go on over to your podcast platform of choice and
give us a five star rating.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Please.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
If you'd gone over to Apple and rise review, you
would love to hear what you have to say, rate review,
subscribe and share with a friend.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
Please. Ephesians five, two wives, be willing to serve. Your
husband's the same as the Lord.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
Wow, the ego on that. I'm the same as the Lord,
and we're stronger together.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
We'll see you next time. Bye,