April 22, 2025 • 54 mins
This week features a guest as we dive into queer identity, layers of privilege, and why everyone still gets mad when a woman raises her voice. From La Vie en Grindr to Gabrielle Union’s fiery acceptance speech, let’s TALK ABOUT IT!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hello, and welcome to Sad Girls again, to the Patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I'm Alison, and I'm Dakota and weird. Yeah you're sad.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
It's okay. You don't have to say that part. You
do okay, but I like that you are so ready
to go when Dudah is ready, is ready to record. So,
as you could tell, we are mixing things up a
little bit today. Alexis is actually potentially going to be
taking some time off from the podcast because we all
(00:50):
know she's been really busy. She's going to grad school,
she's moving up in her job, she is slaying the
day away. But the podcast is a big time commitment,
so graciously some friends have agreed to come on and
help me out with it, So thank you for being here.
Of course, anytime today happens to be like tour day
at our studio, so there's like thirty people just like
(01:13):
watching us.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
That's my first podcast, and I feel like I'm being
observed on how to So yeah, need to be a
model student right now.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
It's okay, You're in good hands. We got this. We
know what we're doing to go to my roommate now,
so we've already had plenty of time to. I was
just saying in a previous episode, like roommates, it's so
intimate because they see you, like getting up to eat
cake in the middle of the night, right bringing home degenerates.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Literally, or being the degenerate at the middle of the
night eating cake.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yes, there is no hiding, there's no hiding from them.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
No, no, it's it's a very unique experience, especially as
an adult, I feel, because you have your own set
ways of being and then you just try to coexist
with the whole other human with their That way is.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So and you're not a family, You're not in a
romantic entanglement or anything.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, and you're like, I have no need to like
this person if I if I don't, so thank god
I do like you.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Oh my god, I forgot to tell you a joke
I heard. I hope listeners find this interesting. We do
have actual educational content today because we always try to
not just gap. I think those podcasts are fun, but
also learning is good, of course. But I did hear
a great joke which is a comedian and it was
like having roommates is adults. It's two people who no
one wanted to marry getting together to battle homelessness.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Oh my god, that's too real. Wow, that's so funny.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
At least you have time to have someone want to
marry you. Once you get in your thirties, it's like, well,
maybe it's just me and my cat, and that's just okay.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Honestly, at this point, I would be happier with just
me and a cat.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yes, Yes, to go to just moved here from Nebraska.
It's his first time living away from the Midwest.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
It sounds like, Yes, my first time actually being in
LA was when I got out here, and then I
just never left. I was meant to be, meant to
be near the water. I knew from the start.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
You committed to the bit.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I did it. I did go on.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
We just did an episode on How to Survive Your
Twenties that was talking about how it is so good
to move away from your hometown and like it's just
honestly very cleansing and healing and beautiful. Has that been
your experience so far?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yes? Absolutely, well, considering like I had initially just planned
for this to be a vacation, and then I was
loving it so much that I was out here, I
was like, I'm going to extend my flight and then
second time came around and I was like, I'm gonna
look for a lease and then yeah, it's been the
(03:57):
best experience for myself. And honestly, I've gotten a lot
closer with my mom by moving out here, which has
been really sweet.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
And the next thing you know, you're recording a podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah right, I'm in La.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Mom's happening. Yeah, we have a checklist of things of
like needs to get a parking ticket, needs to like
be a PA on SAT for a day. But it's
probably it's gonna be like a friends project. It's gonna
pay very low, but you're still gonna feel good.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, no, it'll it'll be the experience that matters. It
was just like how you got me on the list.
I already had that experience.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I got to do a show and I got to
come a friend in and yeah, being on the list,
it's a good feeling.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Oh yeah, I felt so cool.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yes, yes, Well, our podcast is hopefully gonna just keep blossoming.
Maybe someday you'll be docked and murdered from doing this
podcast episode.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I died doing what I love, seeking attention, and I
guess if I'm doxed and murdered, you will be too
at this moment.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Absolutely, Yeah, we really on a face reveal. But there's
too many.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Nasty in cells of course, yes, but.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
That brings us to you are the second sisman to
be on the podcast. We were careful about definitely having
different kinds of guests on course, given the content. But
a lot of what we're going to talk about today
is the overlap of prejudices that come into this and
the awareness of like you can have privilege in a
(05:26):
certain area but still be discriminated against in another right,
So we are we are all victims of the patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That indeed, just some more than others, and that is
the part that is important to be able to differentiate.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
We're back. We just had room to which means we
sat in silence for ten seconds. The worst is over.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Now we can fill the earth with chatter my specialty.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, we're both anti silence people. I feel like
most of my friends are. That's what I've observed anyway,
Like headphones all the time, yes, podcasts, audio something.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
If I'm not talking, somebody needs to be talking in
my ear. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
My default mode is talking, but I'll allow other people
to talk occasionally. Do you have any advice. Actually, we
were talking about this with the how to Survive your
twenties of things that you have learned so far still
being in your twenties. I guess, in case anything comes
to mind for our younger listeners.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I would say, in my early early twenties, everything and
this is like so annoying to hear when you are
in that stage, but everything feels so heavy an end
of the world and life or death in those moments,
and it's just such an emotionally turbulent time. And at
(06:59):
least in my life was it was a wild time
like ages eighteen to twenty two specifically, And I feel
like you really do remove yourself from this that time
of your life, even just slightly, and you can look
back and be so thankful that you went through that
crazy shit that you did and learned how to be
(07:21):
better from it. And like I said, that's so annoying
when you're in the trenches, but it it's so true.
I feel like I have aged mentally like fifteen years
in the last five.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
No, we call that second puberty. Then eighteen to twenty
one you're totally learning new things about yourself, but even
more turbulent than first puberty.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Oh yeah, I would say yes, especially when you're a
gay man with other gay men all around you also
going through those phases. They're all just very, very toxic.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So well, what a perfect transition. Because speaking of yes,
we format of the podcast around two papers that Dakota
wrote through college and I was asking, like, what are
some topics related to just throwing out like feminism, patriarchy, privilege, whatever,
(08:23):
and we came down these papers. So that's what the
episode is structured around. What was your field of study
when you wrote these papers.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I was a communication studies major and my pathway or
like emphasis of research is diversity, equity, inclusion, and gendered communication.
And I got a minor in psychology.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Perfect that fits. That works. We made the right choice
coming here today. I love it. So we're going to
be talking about queer visibility and stigma and patriarchy and
Grinder and Gabrielle Union and the politics of advocacy so much.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And lions and tigers and bears.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Oh my. So we are looking at two different papers.
One is on dating app specifically Grinder or is it
inclusive of other dating apps for the gay community.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
It is. I tried to make it broader, but I
ended up just kind of having it be more focused
on grinder because right, what you know exactly right where
the heart is, get your sample size where you can
find it.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I think we call it anecdotal data. No, they really
went off with the name grinder as an app name.
I was thinking, like, what a perfect like grinder.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I know, and even like the like without the eye,
even just that makes it so much more like risk
gay I something about it. I don't know they really did,
they knew what they were doing with that marketing.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, I was looking at that word worse today than
I usually do it. I'm like, wow, like, so one
is just sleeping on a mattressful of cash?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Oh oh yeah, right now?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And then okay, so that's paper one, and then paper
wrote two. So that's about Gabrielle Union's ward speech. And
for people who don't know who is Gabrielle Union.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
So Gabrielle Union is a very well known actress, specifically
from like the nineties early two thousands. She was like
the head cheerleader of the Clovers and bring it on
the original. But she's married to an NBA player, uh,
(10:35):
Dwayne Wade, and he has a transgender daughter, and so
that's her stepdaughter. And since she has stepped into that role,
she's gotten very into advocacy for specifically the black trans community,
but the trans community at large. And so this speech
(10:56):
was accepting an award at the NAACP Image Awards.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
And she started talking about her stepdaughter.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, okay, yeah. The award was for her and her
husband's advocacy for the trance community. And she during this
speech like got super emotional and kind of geared the
whole thing as like a what the hell are we doing? How?
Why are we not helping this community that's actively getting
(11:28):
slaughtered every day? Like she she went there and it
was a very impactful speech.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Okay, perfect, we'll go into that a little bit more later,
but we're going to start with our questions. Yes please,
I guess I have to ask them. This is the
way it is when I teach yoga or dance. I'll
be like, so, what are we going to do next?
I guess I have to decide. I so often just
(11:55):
want to be like, could someone else do my life?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
But hey, when you say that yoga, it makes me
feel like I'm part of the journey.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Okay, So I mean notes talk about major themes of privilege,
so gay men they do have the privilege of maleness,
but not protected from homophobia. And then it was seeming
like from your paper that the culture is kind of
encouraging almost like a risky behavior, but then punishing them
before it.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, it's like an expectation. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But then at the same time, if you're not kind
of living in a scripted way, there are going to
be consequences. Social right. Are dating apps that are catered
to gay men, like Grinder, are they just hookup tools
or are they also like a way of forming a
community as well?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
That is a very tough question. I would say, first
and foremost they are hookup tools, like that's absolutely I
mean not to generalize, but I'm going to say nearly
every resist gay man when they download Grinder, they're not
thinking of I want to find a community in this moment,
(13:08):
like friend right, which like it. But I will say,
especially growing up in the Midwest, I did find community
and people on Grinder because I didn't know how else
to find people. And like, as sad as it sounds like,
hookup culture is just so normalized in gay culture, so
(13:31):
I almost felt like I had to go through those
hookups to find the community.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
That's kind of what I was thinking, because if you're
in an area where it's so stigmatized like here, I'm
hoping that it's more like you can just like go
to a show or just like go out and you're
just gonna meet people. But if you don't have that,
and also if there's a lot of people who are
maybe like masking and trying to hide who they are
to avoid being beaten to death, then how.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Else are you gonna Yeah, and with the masking the
on all dating profiles in but specifically Grinder back home,
the amount of like faceless profiles or discreet blocks you
the second you ask for a face photo, Like that's
a huge thing as well. So I mean when like
(14:20):
three fourths of the pool are saying like discreet or
not showing their face there, it kind of gives an
inadvertent shame of like we are all like ashamed of
this and are hiding on this app and even hiding
our faces while on this secret app.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
And right, yeah, and then is it also concerned of
like do they actually have a wife?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yes? And most of the time they do. Like it's
which is even another another messed up layer of the Midwest.
I know so many middle aged gay men that are
on dating apps that have wives and children, and it's
totally because they were just societally expected to do that
(15:01):
and like be a family maker, white picket fence, and
now they're just on grinder every night, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, yeah, cheating on someone, which is not better.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Right, Cora le No, no for either of them.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Okay, I was gonna ask. We were talking about it's
a hookup culture almost being prioritized. It sounded like, why
do we think that is in the gay male community
more so than in others?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Right, Well, part of it, I would say, is because
CIS men are CIS men regardless of their sexual orientation.
So like there's just a part of them being horn dogs,
which I mean, it's it comes with the territory, I guess,
(15:48):
like I it's hard, but that is that is a
big part of it. But also I think that men
at large, they really don't get taught to show affection emotion,
specifically to other men. So when you have that mixed
with the like hidden sexuality or like a suppressed sense
(16:10):
of identity, I think that it really makes the hookup culture.
And then they have that like regret right afterwards because
they don't even feel comfortable with the sex, let alone
like being affectionate. That is a huge thing on those apps,
is that many guys won't want to kiss or like
touch or anything like that. It's straight up sex and leave.
(16:33):
It's very transactional.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It sounds depressing.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
It is. It's so depressing. I had like a few
of those experiences every I feel like every gay man
I've talked to does, and there it's always like grimy,
like weird sad.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Afterwards, it sounds better than it is. Yeah, you're like.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Okay, yeah, like this will be fun. Yeah, you get
there and you're like, oh, we're both sad.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Well, yeah, I was thinking of the Yeah, these his
men are, says men regardless answer to that when I
asked it of like there's this thing that is problematic
for sure, but that men are the gatekeepers of commitment
and women are the gate keepers of sex. Yeah, And
a lot of that is societally programmed as well, like
women being taught to be ashamed of their own sexuality.
(17:25):
But then it does create a barrier of like guys
coming at junior you're like, no, I don't want that,
so then as a straight man you have a barrier,
but now you remove that from the question, and now
you have yes.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You remove that and then multipply the other side times too,
and then they In any same sex relationship, you're you're
really figuring out the nuances of because you've been taught
like who plays what roles your whole life, and then
you don't know who's supposed to play what role. And
it's really it's like so contextual and it should be
(18:00):
in every relationship, but it isn't, and there's not those
like fallback, like idealistic roles that you can go into.
So I think that that can also cause a lot
of tension within gay relationships.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
That's an interesting point because you always hear the joke
about like are you the boy or the girl in
the relationship? Yes, But then in a heterosexual relationship, it
shouldn't be like that, I right, yeah, like I'm the
girl in the relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah yeah, when you say I'm the girl in the relationship,
like everyone knows what that means quote unquote like, which
is just goes back to the fact that we are
so suppressive to women and then we still try to
label those roles onto the queer community because we're like,
(18:48):
I don't know what to label those others, Like we
need to put something heteronormative on them.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Right, Right, If you're the guy in the relationship, it
means you're more domineering, you're probably winner, and you're more
of the caretaker, but more in like a financial way,
or maybe you're choosing where to go out, yes, yeah,
like cleaning the home or taking care of a child.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Right. And I also think that in gay male relationships,
the male role if they do subscribe, but even if
like unintentionally, is also kind of expected to be more
of like the machism and masculine and have like a
certain body type of that, whereas the feminine person in
(19:31):
the relationship is always supposed to be a bit like slender,
and there's still like those expectations of bodies. It's very
strange when you're trying to have them prescribed to different
body types.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, yeah, no, that made me think of this guy
I know in San Francisco who just posted that she
is coming out as non binary, and she was just
saying that she's realizing she likes to be more in
touch with her masculine side and she's finding areas where
she likes to be feminine or where she doesn't like
those feminine stereotypes. And obviously, like I'm very supportive of
(20:04):
anyone coming out is non binary, but I did also
feel like, is this partially just that, like you're being
told that, like you can't have a masculine side.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, that sounds very interesting. That's it's it's not necessarily
non binary. If you enjoy certain masculine traits and feminine traits,
that's just kind of being human. But I mean it
is very like you said, stigmatize that we aren't supposed
to adopt any of those. That's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, like it's easier to just apply this other label. Yeah,
has some understanding around it, even though it's not I
don't think well understood in a large scale. But at
least we kind of have a conception as opposed to
just kind of embrace these parts that we all have.
Everyone has all of this, some of it is just
more active at times, right right into the woo wu
(20:50):
kooky an zone of like they're all present in you,
all your spirits.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I also think that the same can happen to straight
men or or like straight women, where if a straight
man is too in touch with his feminine side, are
too comfortable in being emotional or etc. There's always talks
of like him being a sissy, or is he gay
(21:19):
or And I think that it like can bleed into
this situation as well. Of course, it's so nuanced because
you don't know how they're feeling about their gender identity.
But there's a very big difference people don't realize between
gender and just masculine and feminine qualities.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
M m, Well, apparently gender is so politicized these days,
and I'm just here to politicize it more right.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
No, of course those fight fire with fire.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, no, I agree. When I think of masculinity and femininity,
I'm tending to think of just things that I have
been told are the connotations of both those, and those
are words I've tried to adapt my own understanding of
myself toward, but not something I was born with by
any means. Yeah, so it definitely it gets critzy. But
(22:12):
in my notes later, yeah, I was gonna say that
something fascinating is that it's okay for girls to be
a tomboy, to like watch sports like hang with the guys,
and even wear boy's clothes. And that's fine, but then
if a man wants to do anything, we're feminine. Now
it's like obviously there's this negative like, oh, like you're
a girl, Like, yeah, has a bad meaning.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
To it, right. We even the other night talked about
like the metrosexual where when it was literally just like
a wealth hemp guy who shaved his face, they had
to have an entire different orientation for them because because
they just could not accept that that was a thing.
I'm like, what is going on, fellows?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Is it goat to take a shower? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Literruly to some of them, yes, to some of them,
it is gay to wash your ass, yes.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yes, Or to like go down on a woman. Those
are the funny like when there would be like a
tweet that's like, oh I would never go down to
my girl, Like that's blah blah blah. And it's like, fellas,
is it gay to like women? Like I'm not understanding
truly logic here, but we can blame patriarchy all around. Yeah, yes,
this is all building to my argument. And I don't
(23:29):
have a lot of listeners here that just absolutely hate men.
It's very much more like societal critique. But on the
Missanders memes page, which I don't think you followed my
main page yet.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
No, I think you still. I think I asked you
to send it to me, and I don't know if
you have yet.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I did you. I sent it a while ago and
I can totally resend it. But yeah, I have a
lot of very angry almost like people who like really
think men should die. And it's like, have you really
never had someone in your life who was an ally
(24:05):
or who wasn't just a straight sysman who kind of
broke some of these barriers, like broke this down understood it,
because I definitely have.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah. There, I think that there is a delicate dance
of of course we need to consistently and repetitively remind
men of why they are privileged and have all of
these unnecessary advantages over everybody. But also, like you said,
(24:33):
not every single man is all of those stereotypes in
one and there are good qualities and a lot of
times the bad qualities. They just literally have never been
told because the society tells them that that's how they're
supposed to be. So I'll tell him you trust me?
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Is my that is my job? Yeah, it's yes, it's
very complicated. Too, because then I also realized, like I'm
white person who has all the privilege that goes along
with that, and yeah, even if I'm fem then it
doesn't mean that I'm going to be treated the same way.
And I don't get followed around stores as if I'm
in a shoplift and like I'm not worried about police brutality.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah. Yeah. Being out in LA was literally the first
time in my life that I have walked into any building,
our store and been the minority, like, and it was
such an eye opening feeling of justice, noticing like people
did give me a glance. And it's like everybody of
(25:36):
color has to experience this, and then lately all of
that politicization and hatred on top of it everywhere else
and it's just I just think that everybody needs to
experience a metropolitan's like a dense urban area, because it
really does open your eyes.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, you're saying, like when you've been in like a
Hispanic neighborhood and you go in a store, yeah only there,
Yeah you notice right away, like wow, like this is
I feel a little unintentionally alienated. Yeah, and even if
no one's trying to exclude me of.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Course, yeah, and it's it's not ever I've never felt
it to be intentional out out here, but it's just
it's just interesting because I have to like put myself
in perspective and think of, like, this is the first
and only time I have ever felt that, and people
have literally felt that every day for their entire lives.
(26:32):
When that's like just a level of privilege that I
have over others, and regardless of my where I grew
up or my sexual orientation, like that is never going
to change that privilege that I do hold there.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, yeah, my sister told me very boldly at the
table that white privilege doesn't exist. I just couldn't keep
my mouth shut about like I would have had a
girl like come on, what do you say? Like, I'll
argue nuances with you, sure of, Like are these stats
really accurate? Sure, I'll talk about that, but just the
(27:07):
broad blanket statements like no, but it's living in a city,
So I thought of that that makes you realize that
because you just see it. If you live in a
city where everyone looks like you, you don't see examples
of it other than on TikTok, and then you're like, well,
you know, that's just like one thing, but once you
live it, it's every day.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Right, and even like the positive side, I think everyone
needs to experience the way that in major cities that
people do look so different and have such different ways
of life, but they just coexist. That's been my favorite
part of LA is like the beauty of walking into
a building and just like blending in with the diverse
(27:50):
mixture of chaos that's going on. Like it's been the
first time that I've ever been able to do that.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah. No, absolutely, Once you live in it and you
see then the stereotypes fall away because you just say
they're an actual human, and I think that would happen.
I've bigoted straight man interacted with gay man as well.
I feel like there were maybe some yeah that happened
when my mom met a friend of mine who was
a gay man, and she just like couldn't help but
(28:18):
like him, but like she didn't want to, but he
was just like so charming to her.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
That's every gay man. I don't want to like him,
but something about me is making me.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
What's that about? Is that? Like I don't know, do
they have to compensate?
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I was just gonna say that, Yeah, I feel like,
at least for myself, I was always I was also
very overweight when I was a younger kid. So in
a small town, I was bullied for my voice or
femininity and being a chubby, and so I was like,
I need to figure out a way to have an end.
(28:53):
So I was like, I'm going to be witty and
funny and like good at talking. And that was my
like blank of I like, yeah, the straaight guys are
really mean to me, but they'll laugh at a joke
that I say and leave me alone sometimes, So.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Good luck hating me now.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
But yeah, exactly, you may hate me, but all of
your the girls you want to date come hang out
with me at the football games. That was another reason
they didn't.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Like me, because girls actually wanted to be around.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yes, classic, because I'm like, I wonder why. Maybe it's
because I'm don't make them feel unsafe.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a big piece of it.
For sure. I didn't think about the stacked bullying of
being overweight and.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Being Oh yeah, it was a layers And now.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
If any of my listeners are like, you had a
dude on and they hear that part, now, you guys
are the asshole.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, could you ever could you mean to think of chubby,
little old gay Dakota when he was in fourth grade.
That's that's who you just said you don't want here ictually.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Like a plump little puppy. And it's like, when you're
mean to me, this is who you're being mean to. No.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Actually, I'll have to find a baby photo to show
you're like a child photo because my cheeks were I
was Alvin and the Chipmunks like it was.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Okay, so it's a cute little chipmunk.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
This is my child.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I'm going to bring it back to my notes. But
those are great tangents. But we're talking about like Grinder
being a place to meet people when you can't, but
it is also access to substances.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yes, absolutely, I feel like this is probably the case anywhere,
like everywhere that I've traveled, if I've gotten on Grinder,
there's always a couple of people that hit you up
and are asking you if you either have drugs, want
to come to drugs, or like are interested in acquiring
drugs together. It's really wild how drug oriented Grinder is.
(30:58):
And I think that part of that might just be
that like the feeling of the risky recklessness of being
on there, but it is very problematic, especially in the Midwest.
Is like kind of the heart of some of the
meth crisis, like the opioid crisis, And I feel that
(31:20):
I'd say eight out of ten men that like hit
me up on Grinder are on hard drugs, like not
just like smoking or taking molly, like they're doing like
meth or you know, something heavy. And it's very normalized
and very strange.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
So is it just that you're already in an area
where it's like you're hiding something from your family, You're
already kind of keeping this so covert, so it's also
just kind of a safe space in a way. Yeah,
I think maybe, I.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Think I think so. And I also think that well,
like of course addiction is runs higher and the l
GBTQ community as is, but I think that cis gay
men have this again, like a need to be macho
or not feel their feelings, and I think that drugs
(32:16):
are a great mask for that. And then I think
that it just kind of like becomes a cesspool, especially
in small towns where there is a very small gay community,
like it really like overtakes entire groups of friends and
partners I've had, and yeah, it's really it's really dark.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Just kind of like something that spreads where it's like
if your friends are doing it, if your partners are
doing it, you have more access to it. Yeah, even
if you're not someone who maybe would have been inclined
that way.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Just opportunistic, right, And i'd say specifically, meth amphetamine is
the most like they call it Tina on Grinder, So
like if you ever hear or see anything and like
have Tina or partying with Tina or par capital t
that's the other like huge discreete way of saying that
(33:09):
they're doing math.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
I found a study that was not focused on any
particular area, but it showed that eighty two point nine
percent of surveyed gay men who had used drugs had
done so with people they met on dating apps such
as Grinder.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, that's like that's a lot.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
You said eight out of ten earlier, and I was like, literally,
all it okay, So where was that going to go? Okay?
You were saying that queer community is being more prone
to addiction. That made me think of some of the
kind of insular nature of like if your friends are
doing things. Yeah, it's just more likely you'll try. But
also trauma responses is that like if you've grown up
(33:47):
with a certain degree of trauma. This is why I
think for a certain kind of demographic of like young
liberal people, they'll have a positive impression towards the queer community.
And I think it's because they've met a lot of
people with more emotional maturity because they had to suffrage
to some degree. Yes, even in the best of circumstances,
(34:08):
even if your parents supported you and you were in
a democratic state, I feel like there still has to
be some amount of prejudice.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, oh absolutely, there's like even I feel like sometimes
in that like super liberal bubble, it almost becomes tokenization
or like fetishization where it's like my gay bestie, like yeah,
like you know. I think that that does play a
big part in it. The inability to have somebody to
(34:37):
kind of connect with on such a hard and personal
thing you're going through. It can be super isolating. And
I also think it kind of, like you said, makes
you grow up fast. And I feel like many gay
men are in some way like trying to reclaim parts
of their childhood, Like I collect barbies and like there's
(34:59):
just and I think that drug use is a part
of that. It's like that like fun, crazy part that
they never really got to experience, and so they kind
of like associate that with their youth.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, I mean I definitely do some like I'm gonna
eat ice cream and watch cartoons in bed, because like
I didn't get to have kind of fun, childlike experiences,
so I do them very liberally now, right, I know
sometimes too, Yeah, Yeah, So okay, I have two directions
I'm gonna go. I don't want to forget either of them.
(35:33):
But one of them was that you were talking about
how gay men struggling to show a faction toward each
other is also offshoot of patriarchy, which is so interesting
because we did an episode on how the patriarchy hurts
men too, and it was a lot of talk about
like lack of patonic intimacy. Yeah, so very interesting that
(35:53):
that bleeds over into romantic intimacy for the same reason.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, it's so hard, I think, especially for you younger
gay men who are still kind of like learning their
sexualities and what it means to be in a gay relationship. Personally,
I experienced this a lot where I had partners that
were either there's two extremes where they're either like extremely
(36:18):
overly affectionate or super sexual and physical but not affectionate whatsoever.
And it's almost like scary or like it sickens them
to be affectionate. And I think it's so interesting that
it's easier for them to have sex than it is
(36:39):
to like kiss somebody or cuddle or hold them like
it's just such a it just shows how deep rooted
that like I can't I can't be weak and vulnerable,
and I specially can't show another man that. And then
there comes the like being a protector, and neither of
(36:59):
them want to be too vulnerable or show weakness to
one another. And it's so bad, but it's so prominent.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
It's devastating too. I mean, we feel so sorry for
people who can't have friends or like don't know how
to have these rich friendships and only know how to
interact on this superficial level. They don't know how to
access the depths that comes with more. And I mean
I do think in some ways having sex with someone
is more superficial than cuddling and kissing absolute having an
(37:28):
emotional intimacy too.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I would agree that kind of is also why.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
What was I gonna say that's okay. I wanted to
take our second break so we can think about it
while we're doing that. Did you remember what you were
(37:58):
gonna say it's okay? If not, no, because I wanted
to say hi to your mom, who apparently is going
to listen.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yes, please do.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
I can't imagine having a mom who would enjoy this
kind of content. And now that I know she's maybe
gonna listen to other episodes, I'm like, what did we say?
Was it bad? Was it like not mom friendly?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Oh my gosh, it'll be my mom friendly. She's hurt
it all and then some that's so cute. We got
three gay kids and Iowa and you're kind of put
through the wringer.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
And she is not gay and be the change you
want to see in the world.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yes, yep, she really. Yeah, she had her life flip
turned upside down. I love it though. She she's become
a little woo woo hippie going to going to her
psychics and her reiki and doing her meditation, and it's
so cute. She's like the only person of her age
in Iowa that I know that does that. So I
(38:51):
love that for her.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, why not whatever works for you is what you
should embrace, of course, Yeah, for sure. Well, the other
direction that I wanted to get a minute ago was
whether mainstream health systems are providing adequate care to the
queer community, which I already know they're not, but opening
that up to like, is that also part of the
redirection toward risky hookups, toward maybe asking advice from friends
(39:18):
that really should be directed toward healthcare provider drug used too.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, I absolutely think so. And I know, like this
is obviously like a statistic that is stigmatized, but there
is like a lot of std transmission through unproducted gay sex,
and especially back home, like a lot of people on
because on Grinder there is an option to list your
(39:45):
HIV status and you can either like not answer it,
or you can say positive, undetectable, negative, et cetera. And
just the amount of people that don't display that try
to hide that, and I know that it's because they've
had a lot of unprotected sex. And that goes with
(40:09):
the fact that they also probably would never go to
the doctor, especially if they have a wife or something,
because that's like the end of the world to them,
So they would never want to do that and then
it spreads so unknowingly. But gay and just queer people
(40:30):
of all genders, they in all sexualities, they really fear
going to the doctor in any context because especially the
last few years, you know, like Iowa was like one
of the first states to try to pass like anti
trans bathroom bands and things like that. So you just
never know when you go to the doctors that if
(40:52):
they're actually going to be an unbiased opinion. Like I've
I've had doctors' experiences back there where I would totally
tell that I was being judged for being gay, or
like they were like adamant asking about getting an STD
test when I was like, I'm not sexually active right now.
Things like that where it's just you avoid it because
(41:15):
you don't want to have to deal with another person
who's supposed to be like life saving that you know,
just makes you invalidated even further.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
That's definitely part of their feminine experience too, of doctors
just not taking them seriously or misinterpreting. We did an
episode on sexism and healthcare and there were stats on
that too, and also people of color being more likely
to die.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Gosh, Yeah, it's such a disgusting thing that so many
people in the health profession have, like this bias that
people of color have a higher pain threshold or a
higher pain tolerance, specifically black women. I know that. It's
just like so disgusting the amount of deaths and fatal
and casualties and in adequate care of black women because
(42:02):
they are black women.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Right. Well, let's take that now to Gabrielle Union and
her speech, and it does sound like she was obviously
advocating for a stepdaughter, but she wasn't doing it in
the palatable way that was expected because usually if there's
something like that in a speech and word ceremony, it's
(42:26):
someone who's white. It's someone who's very affirming, who's very gentle. Yes,
it doesn't sound like she did that.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
No, yeah, it's in my paper. I have like a
couple of examples of speeches that kind of do fit
that genre, and it's like one of them is Anne
Hathaway at an HRC event and it's like that's what
you think of when and she's like hopeful and we're
going to get through this, like I am here for
my queer brothers and sisters. But yeah, Gabrielle Union, for one,
(42:58):
being a black woman, of a stepmother, of a transgender
step daughter. Those are a lot of like unique intersections
right there. And she from the bat would just like
came out hot and angry and emotional, but not reckless.
She was like very very good at keeping herself composed
(43:20):
for how angry and like visibly shook she was about
the state of things. And it was very much a
noteworthy speech because I think people were just kind of
like jaw open after she stopped talking. They were not
ready for that as an acceptance speech.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Yeah, and I think it would have been taken really
differently from a white woman too, and you would never
even expect that from a man like no Aria. Just
the is the funny part there. Everyone's got to go
watch it. Oh yes, please, do I remember do we
google Gabrielle Union words?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Yes, google Gabrielle Union and double acp he Image Awards.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Okay, being a stepmother too, I realize is it's almost
like harder for people to understand. Yeah, wait, that isn't
even your kid and you still care that much.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, And I know she gets a lot of flack
for that, for people saying, like, why are you doing
all of this? That's not even your kid, and she's like, yes,
it is my kid, And I witness what she has
to deal with every single day, like, of course I'm
going to fight tooth and nail for this.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Yeah. Sorry, I'm a good person. Yeah my bad.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah. It feels like she was punished for breaking the
rules of like what a good advocate is supposed to
look like.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Yeah, a lot of people were upset or calling her
unprofessional because of how like visibly passionate she was. And
I think that it's just so humorous because if she
would have gone up their dead pan and just thanked them,
and she would have gotten flack for not caring or
(45:04):
for getting this award and not voicing her disgust for
the way that they're being treated. And she did, but
she just didn't do it in the way that was
appropriate for society to digest. And so it was she's
so unprofessional, like she's just an angry black woman. That
(45:24):
was very much they gave her, like the angry emotional
black woman trope, which is such a harmful stereotype in
society already. And I just think it's so so interesting
when if assists had male were to give a speech
and get emotional or like angry and like shake his
(45:45):
fist or whatever. It would be triumphant or like a
big hurrah, but instead it's like she's aggressive and emotional
and unstable.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
I had a friend walk into a cafe where I
work and he was pushing a stroller. We were all like,
oh my god, your baby's sitting like, oh my god,
look at you. Like but then I stopped myself and
I was like, why is it a big fucking deal
that you're pushing a stroller? Like it shouldn't be this
kind of attitude of like if a man does something
to help a child, like we just approach it so differently. Yeah,
(46:20):
whereas for women, it's like you're expected to be the caretaker,
but then if you get emotional on behalf of the
person that you're taking care of, now that's a problem too.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yes, why do men get a gold star for doing
the bare minimum? Because then that just makes them think
that the bare minimum is gold star worthy. Yeah, and
it's like, well, yeah, there's not, like we're already scrape
in hell at the at the bottom of the barrel
right now.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Like the bar is a dive in here.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, but then women who are told to be the caretaker,
the caregiver clearly if they don't do that in the
correct way. Especially I've heard definitely that trope of the
angry black women, and that people are almost taught like
make sure to avoid that, be careful with.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
What you say, yep, and that, Like I know, it's
another thing of the angry black woman. It's society doesn't
take her as seriously because she's reactive and emotional and
whatever this trope is. But like in this instance, like
with Gabrielle Union, it's like, who the hell wouldn't be
(47:31):
angry and emotional if their child was getting like attacked
and victimized every day? Like what did I don't understand
what tone was appropriate.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
I don't understand the Turf's approach to this in that
they'll say that a trans woman is just a man
in a dress. But it's like, that's a person who
I know was aggressively bullied, victimized all growing up, like
more than anything I can relate to primarily bys have men.
It's like, how are you lumping them together when this
(48:04):
is someone who is socialized. Even if you don't agree
like oh, they grew up as a woman. Can you
at least agree that they didn't grow up being treated
like a says gendered man.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Yeah. Absolutely, And we don't have that same harshness towards
trans men all the time because for one, there quote
unquote passable, a bit easier. And also it's just that
men aren't viewing women as superior in any way or
(48:36):
as a threat, and so a trans man to them
is still a woman and that isn't scary by any
means whatsoever. But a trans woman is a man, and
so we're going to be violent and aggressive and actually
detrimental to that person. It's so so wild to me
(48:59):
because how do you recognize one but not the other.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
No, I've totally noticed that too, and where it's like
it's okay to be non binary as long as you
look feminine, right, and like it's okay to be a
lesbian but not so much a gay man. And yeah,
let's make some connections between these two papers before we
wrap it up. Obviously, apps and someone's interaction with those
(49:24):
apps and award shows and the ramifications that there are
different platforms. But what I was seeing is that there's
just negotiations with patriarchy going on. Yeah, and Also the
visibility doesn't always go well for you, almost like just
because you have this space where you can connect with
other gay men, or just because you're able to get
your message out there, there's still just risks associated with it,
(49:45):
and it might even lead to stigma and backlash to
a greater degree, which isn't fair.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Right absolutely. I Also that made me think of just
that when you're talking about any LGBTQA plus issues, there
isn't a right way because there's never historically been a
way to talk about these people, or to have arguments,
(50:13):
or to like express yourself in a normal way. And
so like everyone's still grasping what the normal is or
what idealistically a group is and that makes it on
both ends, the pro and the anti they're very sensitive
about everything because it's like this was not how it
(50:35):
should have been presented, or this is not how you
should have portrayed our community when there's no guidelines to
go by, like everyone's just trying to pave the way
for there to be a norm.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
That's a good point. No, people of all flavors have
existed forever, but they haven't always been acknowledged or allowed
to exist openly. Like I was gonna say, like they
are now, but it's kind of more like like they
sort of were for a little bit right, kind of
aren't again.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Like they like they got almost got teased for a
little tiny minute there.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Oh you want to have rights, Absolutely not, you've got.
I wonder if even were there people who are pro
trans rights who were not in favor of Gabrielle Union's
speech there. I don't. I don't know, but I think
the left also has a habit of eating its own tail,
and people who are so closely aligned just getting into
(51:32):
fights over small things. Where's the right? There's just such
a spectrum and then they're just like, you know what
make America crade again? Baby? Uh like just they're being
more productive and more unified.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Right, Yeah, and you're you're still right there. They're damn
good at camaraderie. Yeah, they and we are very good
at nitpicking each other to smithering and.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
Yes, yes, healthy critiques and back and forth are great,
but we have to find our common grounds well when
it's usually over things that are very valuable.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
So we've been talking about these spaces that should offer freedom,
like dating apps that are for a certain kind of
community media platforms that should be a good way to
get a message out, but they're still very shaped by
the system of patriarchy, white supremacy, and moral judgment too.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
It's almost like you are given these little avenues to
voice your opinion on it, but if you want it
to make any waves, you have to do it through
the heteronormative lens and the white lens of the masses. Otherwise, unfortunately,
it doesn't persuade the majority of people, which really sucks.
(52:48):
But it's just something I think that queer advocates and
queer people always have to think about.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
And this is also part of why I can't take
an approach of like all CIS men deserve to die,
because I also need that allyship. I need it from
all over because there are a lot of people who
will not listen to a fem person, so you need
to have someone who has a different kind of privilege
than your own to be heard.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
That makes so much sense.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Yeah, sadly, well, we are out of time, so we're
gonna wrap it up. And this is the part where
I say I am a Sandrist memes on Instagram, and
then we can say together, I'll say, and we are
And then we'll say sad Gap dot podcast. Let's see
how it goes. Let's see okay, and we are sad
Gap dot podcast. That was it. That was good. We
(53:40):
did a good job. You can email us at sad
Gap dot podcast at gmail dot com. You can visit
our website sad gapdh podcast dot com. Patreon has ad
free episodes Patreon dot com, slash sad Gap. Thank you
so much for being here, Dakota. I really appreciate you
coming in, sharing your papers, sharing your insights. It was
lovely to chat with you well.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely
popping my podcast cherry with you.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Okay, now you're saying we're stronger together.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
And we're stronger together.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
We'll see you next time. Bye, yes, perfect, Bye bye
Hello, and welcome to Sad Girls again, to the Patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I'm Alison, and I'm Dakota and weird. Yeah you're sad.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
It's okay. You don't have to say that part. You
do okay, but I like that you are so ready
to go when Dudah is ready, is ready to record. So,
as you could tell, we are mixing things up a
little bit today. Alexis is actually potentially going to be
taking some time off from the podcast because we all
(00:50):
know she's been really busy. She's going to grad school,
she's moving up in her job, she is slaying the
day away. But the podcast is a big time commitment,
so graciously some friends have agreed to come on and
help me out with it, So thank you for being here.
Of course, anytime today happens to be like tour day
at our studio, so there's like thirty people just like
(01:13):
watching us.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
That's my first podcast, and I feel like I'm being
observed on how to So yeah, need to be a
model student right now.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
It's okay, You're in good hands. We got this. We
know what we're doing to go to my roommate now,
so we've already had plenty of time to. I was
just saying in a previous episode, like roommates, it's so
intimate because they see you, like getting up to eat
cake in the middle of the night, right bringing home degenerates.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Literally, or being the degenerate at the middle of the
night eating cake.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yes, there is no hiding, there's no hiding from them.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
No, no, it's it's a very unique experience, especially as
an adult, I feel, because you have your own set
ways of being and then you just try to coexist
with the whole other human with their That way is.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So and you're not a family, You're not in a
romantic entanglement or anything.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, and you're like, I have no need to like
this person if I if I don't, so thank god
I do like you.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Oh my god, I forgot to tell you a joke
I heard. I hope listeners find this interesting. We do
have actual educational content today because we always try to
not just gap. I think those podcasts are fun, but
also learning is good, of course. But I did hear
a great joke which is a comedian and it was
like having roommates is adults. It's two people who no
one wanted to marry getting together to battle homelessness.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Oh my god, that's too real. Wow, that's so funny.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
At least you have time to have someone want to
marry you. Once you get in your thirties, it's like, well,
maybe it's just me and my cat, and that's just okay.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Honestly, at this point, I would be happier with just
me and a cat.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yes, Yes, to go to just moved here from Nebraska.
It's his first time living away from the Midwest.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
It sounds like, Yes, my first time actually being in
LA was when I got out here, and then I
just never left. I was meant to be, meant to
be near the water. I knew from the start.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
You committed to the bit.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I did it. I did go on.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
We just did an episode on How to Survive Your
Twenties that was talking about how it is so good
to move away from your hometown and like it's just
honestly very cleansing and healing and beautiful. Has that been
your experience so far?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yes? Absolutely, well, considering like I had initially just planned
for this to be a vacation, and then I was
loving it so much that I was out here, I
was like, I'm going to extend my flight and then
second time came around and I was like, I'm gonna
look for a lease and then yeah, it's been the
(03:57):
best experience for myself. And honestly, I've gotten a lot
closer with my mom by moving out here, which has
been really sweet.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
And the next thing you know, you're recording a podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah right, I'm in La.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Mom's happening. Yeah, we have a checklist of things of
like needs to get a parking ticket, needs to like
be a PA on SAT for a day. But it's
probably it's gonna be like a friends project. It's gonna
pay very low, but you're still gonna feel good.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, no, it'll it'll be the experience that matters. It
was just like how you got me on the list.
I already had that experience.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I got to do a show and I got to
come a friend in and yeah, being on the list,
it's a good feeling.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Oh yeah, I felt so cool.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yes, yes, Well, our podcast is hopefully gonna just keep blossoming.
Maybe someday you'll be docked and murdered from doing this
podcast episode.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I died doing what I love, seeking attention, and I
guess if I'm doxed and murdered, you will be too
at this moment.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Absolutely, Yeah, we really on a face reveal. But there's
too many.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Nasty in cells of course, yes, but.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
That brings us to you are the second sisman to
be on the podcast. We were careful about definitely having
different kinds of guests on course, given the content. But
a lot of what we're going to talk about today
is the overlap of prejudices that come into this and
the awareness of like you can have privilege in a
(05:26):
certain area but still be discriminated against in another right,
So we are we are all victims of the patriarchy.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That indeed, just some more than others, and that is
the part that is important to be able to differentiate.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
We're back. We just had room to which means we
sat in silence for ten seconds. The worst is over.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Now we can fill the earth with chatter my specialty.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, we're both anti silence people. I feel like
most of my friends are. That's what I've observed anyway,
Like headphones all the time, yes, podcasts, audio something.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
If I'm not talking, somebody needs to be talking in
my ear. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
My default mode is talking, but I'll allow other people
to talk occasionally. Do you have any advice. Actually, we
were talking about this with the how to Survive your
twenties of things that you have learned so far still
being in your twenties. I guess, in case anything comes
to mind for our younger listeners.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I would say, in my early early twenties, everything and
this is like so annoying to hear when you are
in that stage, but everything feels so heavy an end
of the world and life or death in those moments,
and it's just such an emotionally turbulent time. And at
(06:59):
least in my life was it was a wild time
like ages eighteen to twenty two specifically, And I feel
like you really do remove yourself from this that time
of your life, even just slightly, and you can look
back and be so thankful that you went through that
crazy shit that you did and learned how to be
(07:21):
better from it. And like I said, that's so annoying
when you're in the trenches, but it it's so true.
I feel like I have aged mentally like fifteen years
in the last five.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
No, we call that second puberty. Then eighteen to twenty
one you're totally learning new things about yourself, but even
more turbulent than first puberty.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Oh yeah, I would say yes, especially when you're a
gay man with other gay men all around you also
going through those phases. They're all just very, very toxic.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So well, what a perfect transition. Because speaking of yes,
we format of the podcast around two papers that Dakota
wrote through college and I was asking, like, what are
some topics related to just throwing out like feminism, patriarchy, privilege, whatever,
(08:23):
and we came down these papers. So that's what the
episode is structured around. What was your field of study
when you wrote these papers.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I was a communication studies major and my pathway or
like emphasis of research is diversity, equity, inclusion, and gendered communication.
And I got a minor in psychology.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Perfect that fits. That works. We made the right choice
coming here today. I love it. So we're going to
be talking about queer visibility and stigma and patriarchy and
Grinder and Gabrielle Union and the politics of advocacy so much.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And lions and tigers and bears.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Oh my. So we are looking at two different papers.
One is on dating app specifically Grinder or is it
inclusive of other dating apps for the gay community.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
It is. I tried to make it broader, but I
ended up just kind of having it be more focused
on grinder because right, what you know exactly right where
the heart is, get your sample size where you can
find it.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I think we call it anecdotal data. No, they really
went off with the name grinder as an app name.
I was thinking, like, what a perfect like grinder.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I know, and even like the like without the eye,
even just that makes it so much more like risk
gay I something about it. I don't know they really did,
they knew what they were doing with that marketing.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, I was looking at that word worse today than
I usually do it. I'm like, wow, like, so one
is just sleeping on a mattressful of cash?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Oh oh yeah, right now?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And then okay, so that's paper one, and then paper
wrote two. So that's about Gabrielle Union's ward speech. And
for people who don't know who is Gabrielle Union.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
So Gabrielle Union is a very well known actress, specifically
from like the nineties early two thousands. She was like
the head cheerleader of the Clovers and bring it on
the original. But she's married to an NBA player, uh,
(10:35):
Dwayne Wade, and he has a transgender daughter, and so
that's her stepdaughter. And since she has stepped into that role,
she's gotten very into advocacy for specifically the black trans community,
but the trans community at large. And so this speech
(10:56):
was accepting an award at the NAACP Image Awards.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
And she started talking about her stepdaughter.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, okay, yeah. The award was for her and her
husband's advocacy for the trance community. And she during this
speech like got super emotional and kind of geared the
whole thing as like a what the hell are we doing? How?
Why are we not helping this community that's actively getting
(11:28):
slaughtered every day? Like she she went there and it
was a very impactful speech.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Okay, perfect, we'll go into that a little bit more later,
but we're going to start with our questions. Yes please,
I guess I have to ask them. This is the
way it is when I teach yoga or dance. I'll
be like, so, what are we going to do next?
I guess I have to decide. I so often just
(11:55):
want to be like, could someone else do my life?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
But hey, when you say that yoga, it makes me
feel like I'm part of the journey.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Okay, So I mean notes talk about major themes of privilege,
so gay men they do have the privilege of maleness,
but not protected from homophobia. And then it was seeming
like from your paper that the culture is kind of
encouraging almost like a risky behavior, but then punishing them
before it.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, it's like an expectation. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But then at the same time, if you're not kind
of living in a scripted way, there are going to
be consequences. Social right. Are dating apps that are catered
to gay men, like Grinder, are they just hookup tools
or are they also like a way of forming a
community as well?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
That is a very tough question. I would say, first
and foremost they are hookup tools, like that's absolutely I
mean not to generalize, but I'm going to say nearly
every resist gay man when they download Grinder, they're not
thinking of I want to find a community in this moment,
(13:08):
like friend right, which like it. But I will say,
especially growing up in the Midwest, I did find community
and people on Grinder because I didn't know how else
to find people. And like, as sad as it sounds like,
hookup culture is just so normalized in gay culture, so
(13:31):
I almost felt like I had to go through those
hookups to find the community.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
That's kind of what I was thinking, because if you're
in an area where it's so stigmatized like here, I'm
hoping that it's more like you can just like go
to a show or just like go out and you're
just gonna meet people. But if you don't have that,
and also if there's a lot of people who are
maybe like masking and trying to hide who they are
to avoid being beaten to death, then how.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Else are you gonna Yeah, and with the masking the
on all dating profiles in but specifically Grinder back home,
the amount of like faceless profiles or discreet blocks you
the second you ask for a face photo, Like that's
a huge thing as well. So I mean when like
(14:20):
three fourths of the pool are saying like discreet or
not showing their face there, it kind of gives an
inadvertent shame of like we are all like ashamed of
this and are hiding on this app and even hiding
our faces while on this secret app.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
And right, yeah, and then is it also concerned of
like do they actually have a wife?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yes? And most of the time they do. Like it's
which is even another another messed up layer of the Midwest.
I know so many middle aged gay men that are
on dating apps that have wives and children, and it's
totally because they were just societally expected to do that
(15:01):
and like be a family maker, white picket fence, and
now they're just on grinder every night, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, yeah, cheating on someone, which is not better.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Right, Cora le No, no for either of them.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Okay, I was gonna ask. We were talking about it's
a hookup culture almost being prioritized. It sounded like, why
do we think that is in the gay male community
more so than in others?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Right, Well, part of it, I would say, is because
CIS men are CIS men regardless of their sexual orientation.
So like there's just a part of them being horn dogs,
which I mean, it's it comes with the territory, I guess,
(15:48):
like I it's hard, but that is that is a
big part of it. But also I think that men
at large, they really don't get taught to show affection emotion,
specifically to other men. So when you have that mixed
with the like hidden sexuality or like a suppressed sense
(16:10):
of identity, I think that it really makes the hookup culture.
And then they have that like regret right afterwards because
they don't even feel comfortable with the sex, let alone
like being affectionate. That is a huge thing on those apps,
is that many guys won't want to kiss or like
touch or anything like that. It's straight up sex and leave.
(16:33):
It's very transactional.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It sounds depressing.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
It is. It's so depressing. I had like a few
of those experiences every I feel like every gay man
I've talked to does, and there it's always like grimy,
like weird sad.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Afterwards, it sounds better than it is. Yeah, you're like.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Okay, yeah, like this will be fun. Yeah, you get
there and you're like, oh, we're both sad.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Well, yeah, I was thinking of the Yeah, these his
men are, says men regardless answer to that when I
asked it of like there's this thing that is problematic
for sure, but that men are the gatekeepers of commitment
and women are the gate keepers of sex. Yeah, And
a lot of that is societally programmed as well, like
women being taught to be ashamed of their own sexuality.
(17:25):
But then it does create a barrier of like guys
coming at junior you're like, no, I don't want that,
so then as a straight man you have a barrier,
but now you remove that from the question, and now
you have yes.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You remove that and then multipply the other side times too,
and then they In any same sex relationship, you're you're
really figuring out the nuances of because you've been taught
like who plays what roles your whole life, and then
you don't know who's supposed to play what role. And
it's really it's like so contextual and it should be
(18:00):
in every relationship, but it isn't, and there's not those
like fallback, like idealistic roles that you can go into.
So I think that that can also cause a lot
of tension within gay relationships.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
That's an interesting point because you always hear the joke
about like are you the boy or the girl in
the relationship? Yes, But then in a heterosexual relationship, it
shouldn't be like that, I right, yeah, like I'm the
girl in the relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah yeah, when you say I'm the girl in the relationship,
like everyone knows what that means quote unquote like, which
is just goes back to the fact that we are
so suppressive to women and then we still try to
label those roles onto the queer community because we're like,
(18:48):
I don't know what to label those others, Like we
need to put something heteronormative on them.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Right, Right, If you're the guy in the relationship, it
means you're more domineering, you're probably winner, and you're more
of the caretaker, but more in like a financial way,
or maybe you're choosing where to go out, yes, yeah,
like cleaning the home or taking care of a child.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Right. And I also think that in gay male relationships,
the male role if they do subscribe, but even if
like unintentionally, is also kind of expected to be more
of like the machism and masculine and have like a
certain body type of that, whereas the feminine person in
(19:31):
the relationship is always supposed to be a bit like slender,
and there's still like those expectations of bodies. It's very
strange when you're trying to have them prescribed to different
body types.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, yeah, no, that made me think of this guy
I know in San Francisco who just posted that she
is coming out as non binary, and she was just
saying that she's realizing she likes to be more in
touch with her masculine side and she's finding areas where
she likes to be feminine or where she doesn't like
those feminine stereotypes. And obviously, like I'm very supportive of
(20:04):
anyone coming out is non binary, but I did also
feel like, is this partially just that, like you're being
told that, like you can't have a masculine side.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, that sounds very interesting. That's it's it's not necessarily
non binary. If you enjoy certain masculine traits and feminine traits,
that's just kind of being human. But I mean it
is very like you said, stigmatize that we aren't supposed
to adopt any of those. That's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, like it's easier to just apply this other label. Yeah,
has some understanding around it, even though it's not I
don't think well understood in a large scale. But at
least we kind of have a conception as opposed to
just kind of embrace these parts that we all have.
Everyone has all of this, some of it is just
more active at times, right right into the woo wu
(20:50):
kooky an zone of like they're all present in you,
all your spirits.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I also think that the same can happen to straight
men or or like straight women, where if a straight
man is too in touch with his feminine side, are
too comfortable in being emotional or etc. There's always talks
of like him being a sissy, or is he gay
(21:19):
or And I think that it like can bleed into
this situation as well. Of course, it's so nuanced because
you don't know how they're feeling about their gender identity.
But there's a very big difference people don't realize between
gender and just masculine and feminine qualities.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
M m, Well, apparently gender is so politicized these days,
and I'm just here to politicize it more right.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
No, of course those fight fire with fire.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, no, I agree. When I think of masculinity and femininity,
I'm tending to think of just things that I have
been told are the connotations of both those, and those
are words I've tried to adapt my own understanding of
myself toward, but not something I was born with by
any means. Yeah, so it definitely it gets critzy. But
(22:12):
in my notes later, yeah, I was gonna say that
something fascinating is that it's okay for girls to be
a tomboy, to like watch sports like hang with the guys,
and even wear boy's clothes. And that's fine, but then
if a man wants to do anything, we're feminine. Now
it's like obviously there's this negative like, oh, like you're
a girl, Like, yeah, has a bad meaning.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
To it, right. We even the other night talked about
like the metrosexual where when it was literally just like
a wealth hemp guy who shaved his face, they had
to have an entire different orientation for them because because
they just could not accept that that was a thing.
I'm like, what is going on, fellows?
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Is it goat to take a shower? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Literruly to some of them, yes, to some of them,
it is gay to wash your ass, yes.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yes, Or to like go down on a woman. Those
are the funny like when there would be like a
tweet that's like, oh I would never go down to
my girl, Like that's blah blah blah. And it's like, fellas,
is it gay to like women? Like I'm not understanding
truly logic here, but we can blame patriarchy all around. Yeah, yes,
this is all building to my argument. And I don't
(23:29):
have a lot of listeners here that just absolutely hate men.
It's very much more like societal critique. But on the
Missanders memes page, which I don't think you followed my
main page yet.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
No, I think you still. I think I asked you
to send it to me, and I don't know if
you have yet.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I did you. I sent it a while ago and
I can totally resend it. But yeah, I have a
lot of very angry almost like people who like really
think men should die. And it's like, have you really
never had someone in your life who was an ally
(24:05):
or who wasn't just a straight sysman who kind of
broke some of these barriers, like broke this down understood it,
because I definitely have.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah. There, I think that there is a delicate dance
of of course we need to consistently and repetitively remind
men of why they are privileged and have all of
these unnecessary advantages over everybody. But also, like you said,
(24:33):
not every single man is all of those stereotypes in
one and there are good qualities and a lot of
times the bad qualities. They just literally have never been
told because the society tells them that that's how they're
supposed to be. So I'll tell him you trust me?
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Is my that is my job? Yeah, it's yes, it's
very complicated. Too, because then I also realized, like I'm
white person who has all the privilege that goes along
with that, and yeah, even if I'm fem then it
doesn't mean that I'm going to be treated the same way.
And I don't get followed around stores as if I'm
in a shoplift and like I'm not worried about police brutality.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah. Yeah. Being out in LA was literally the first
time in my life that I have walked into any building,
our store and been the minority, like, and it was
such an eye opening feeling of justice, noticing like people
did give me a glance. And it's like everybody of
(25:36):
color has to experience this, and then lately all of
that politicization and hatred on top of it everywhere else
and it's just I just think that everybody needs to
experience a metropolitan's like a dense urban area, because it
really does open your eyes.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, you're saying, like when you've been in like a
Hispanic neighborhood and you go in a store, yeah only there,
Yeah you notice right away, like wow, like this is
I feel a little unintentionally alienated. Yeah, and even if
no one's trying to exclude me of.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Course, yeah, and it's it's not ever I've never felt
it to be intentional out out here, but it's just
it's just interesting because I have to like put myself
in perspective and think of, like, this is the first
and only time I have ever felt that, and people
have literally felt that every day for their entire lives.
(26:32):
When that's like just a level of privilege that I
have over others, and regardless of my where I grew
up or my sexual orientation, like that is never going
to change that privilege that I do hold there.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, yeah, my sister told me very boldly at the
table that white privilege doesn't exist. I just couldn't keep
my mouth shut about like I would have had a
girl like come on, what do you say? Like, I'll
argue nuances with you, sure of, Like are these stats
really accurate? Sure, I'll talk about that, but just the
(27:07):
broad blanket statements like no, but it's living in a city,
So I thought of that that makes you realize that
because you just see it. If you live in a
city where everyone looks like you, you don't see examples
of it other than on TikTok, and then you're like, well,
you know, that's just like one thing, but once you
live it, it's every day.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Right, and even like the positive side, I think everyone
needs to experience the way that in major cities that
people do look so different and have such different ways
of life, but they just coexist. That's been my favorite
part of LA is like the beauty of walking into
a building and just like blending in with the diverse
(27:50):
mixture of chaos that's going on. Like it's been the
first time that I've ever been able to do that.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah. No, absolutely, Once you live in it and you
see then the stereotypes fall away because you just say
they're an actual human, and I think that would happen.
I've bigoted straight man interacted with gay man as well.
I feel like there were maybe some yeah that happened
when my mom met a friend of mine who was
a gay man, and she just like couldn't help but
(28:18):
like him, but like she didn't want to, but he
was just like so charming to her.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
That's every gay man. I don't want to like him,
but something about me is making me.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
What's that about? Is that? Like I don't know, do
they have to compensate?
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I was just gonna say that, Yeah, I feel like,
at least for myself, I was always I was also
very overweight when I was a younger kid. So in
a small town, I was bullied for my voice or
femininity and being a chubby, and so I was like,
I need to figure out a way to have an end.
(28:53):
So I was like, I'm going to be witty and
funny and like good at talking. And that was my
like blank of I like, yeah, the straaight guys are
really mean to me, but they'll laugh at a joke
that I say and leave me alone sometimes, So.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Good luck hating me now.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
But yeah, exactly, you may hate me, but all of
your the girls you want to date come hang out
with me at the football games. That was another reason
they didn't.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Like me, because girls actually wanted to be around.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yes, classic, because I'm like, I wonder why. Maybe it's
because I'm don't make them feel unsafe.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a big piece of it.
For sure. I didn't think about the stacked bullying of
being overweight and.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Being Oh yeah, it was a layers And now.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
If any of my listeners are like, you had a
dude on and they hear that part, now, you guys
are the asshole.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, could you ever could you mean to think of chubby,
little old gay Dakota when he was in fourth grade.
That's that's who you just said you don't want here ictually.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Like a plump little puppy. And it's like, when you're
mean to me, this is who you're being mean to. No.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Actually, I'll have to find a baby photo to show
you're like a child photo because my cheeks were I
was Alvin and the Chipmunks like it was.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Okay, so it's a cute little chipmunk.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
This is my child.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I'm going to bring it back to my notes. But
those are great tangents. But we're talking about like Grinder
being a place to meet people when you can't, but
it is also access to substances.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yes, absolutely, I feel like this is probably the case anywhere,
like everywhere that I've traveled, if I've gotten on Grinder,
there's always a couple of people that hit you up
and are asking you if you either have drugs, want
to come to drugs, or like are interested in acquiring
drugs together. It's really wild how drug oriented Grinder is.
(30:58):
And I think that part of that might just be
that like the feeling of the risky recklessness of being
on there, but it is very problematic, especially in the Midwest.
Is like kind of the heart of some of the
meth crisis, like the opioid crisis, And I feel that
(31:20):
I'd say eight out of ten men that like hit
me up on Grinder are on hard drugs, like not
just like smoking or taking molly, like they're doing like
meth or you know, something heavy. And it's very normalized
and very strange.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
So is it just that you're already in an area
where it's like you're hiding something from your family, You're
already kind of keeping this so covert, so it's also
just kind of a safe space in a way. Yeah,
I think maybe, I.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Think I think so. And I also think that well,
like of course addiction is runs higher and the l
GBTQ community as is, but I think that cis gay
men have this again, like a need to be macho
or not feel their feelings, and I think that drugs
(32:16):
are a great mask for that. And then I think
that it just kind of like becomes a cesspool, especially
in small towns where there is a very small gay community,
like it really like overtakes entire groups of friends and
partners I've had, and yeah, it's really it's really dark.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Just kind of like something that spreads where it's like
if your friends are doing it, if your partners are
doing it, you have more access to it. Yeah, even
if you're not someone who maybe would have been inclined
that way.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Just opportunistic, right, And i'd say specifically, meth amphetamine is
the most like they call it Tina on Grinder, So
like if you ever hear or see anything and like
have Tina or partying with Tina or par capital t
that's the other like huge discreete way of saying that
(33:09):
they're doing math.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
I found a study that was not focused on any
particular area, but it showed that eighty two point nine
percent of surveyed gay men who had used drugs had
done so with people they met on dating apps such
as Grinder.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, that's like that's a lot.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
You said eight out of ten earlier, and I was like, literally,
all it okay, So where was that going to go? Okay?
You were saying that queer community is being more prone
to addiction. That made me think of some of the
kind of insular nature of like if your friends are
doing things. Yeah, it's just more likely you'll try. But
also trauma responses is that like if you've grown up
(33:47):
with a certain degree of trauma. This is why I
think for a certain kind of demographic of like young
liberal people, they'll have a positive impression towards the queer community.
And I think it's because they've met a lot of
people with more emotional maturity because they had to suffrage
to some degree. Yes, even in the best of circumstances,
(34:08):
even if your parents supported you and you were in
a democratic state, I feel like there still has to
be some amount of prejudice.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, oh absolutely, there's like even I feel like sometimes
in that like super liberal bubble, it almost becomes tokenization
or like fetishization where it's like my gay bestie, like yeah,
like you know. I think that that does play a
big part in it. The inability to have somebody to
(34:37):
kind of connect with on such a hard and personal
thing you're going through. It can be super isolating. And
I also think it kind of, like you said, makes
you grow up fast. And I feel like many gay
men are in some way like trying to reclaim parts
of their childhood, Like I collect barbies and like there's
(34:59):
just and I think that drug use is a part
of that. It's like that like fun, crazy part that
they never really got to experience, and so they kind
of like associate that with their youth.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, I mean I definitely do some like I'm gonna
eat ice cream and watch cartoons in bed, because like
I didn't get to have kind of fun, childlike experiences,
so I do them very liberally now, right, I know
sometimes too, Yeah, Yeah, So okay, I have two directions
I'm gonna go. I don't want to forget either of them.
(35:33):
But one of them was that you were talking about
how gay men struggling to show a faction toward each
other is also offshoot of patriarchy, which is so interesting
because we did an episode on how the patriarchy hurts
men too, and it was a lot of talk about
like lack of patonic intimacy. Yeah, so very interesting that
(35:53):
that bleeds over into romantic intimacy for the same reason.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, it's so hard, I think, especially for you younger
gay men who are still kind of like learning their
sexualities and what it means to be in a gay relationship. Personally,
I experienced this a lot where I had partners that
were either there's two extremes where they're either like extremely
(36:18):
overly affectionate or super sexual and physical but not affectionate whatsoever.
And it's almost like scary or like it sickens them
to be affectionate. And I think it's so interesting that
it's easier for them to have sex than it is
(36:39):
to like kiss somebody or cuddle or hold them like
it's just such a it just shows how deep rooted
that like I can't I can't be weak and vulnerable,
and I specially can't show another man that. And then
there comes the like being a protector, and neither of
(36:59):
them want to be too vulnerable or show weakness to
one another. And it's so bad, but it's so prominent.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
It's devastating too. I mean, we feel so sorry for
people who can't have friends or like don't know how
to have these rich friendships and only know how to
interact on this superficial level. They don't know how to
access the depths that comes with more. And I mean
I do think in some ways having sex with someone
is more superficial than cuddling and kissing absolute having an
(37:28):
emotional intimacy too.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I would agree that kind of is also why.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
What was I gonna say that's okay. I wanted to
take our second break so we can think about it
while we're doing that. Did you remember what you were
(37:58):
gonna say it's okay? If not, no, because I wanted
to say hi to your mom, who apparently is going
to listen.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yes, please do.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
I can't imagine having a mom who would enjoy this
kind of content. And now that I know she's maybe
gonna listen to other episodes, I'm like, what did we say?
Was it bad? Was it like not mom friendly?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Oh my gosh, it'll be my mom friendly. She's hurt
it all and then some that's so cute. We got
three gay kids and Iowa and you're kind of put
through the wringer.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
And she is not gay and be the change you
want to see in the world.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yes, yep, she really. Yeah, she had her life flip
turned upside down. I love it though. She she's become
a little woo woo hippie going to going to her
psychics and her reiki and doing her meditation, and it's
so cute. She's like the only person of her age
in Iowa that I know that does that. So I
(38:51):
love that for her.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, why not whatever works for you is what you
should embrace, of course, Yeah, for sure. Well, the other
direction that I wanted to get a minute ago was
whether mainstream health systems are providing adequate care to the
queer community, which I already know they're not, but opening
that up to like, is that also part of the
redirection toward risky hookups, toward maybe asking advice from friends
(39:18):
that really should be directed toward healthcare provider drug used too.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, I absolutely think so. And I know, like this
is obviously like a statistic that is stigmatized, but there
is like a lot of std transmission through unproducted gay sex,
and especially back home, like a lot of people on
because on Grinder there is an option to list your
(39:45):
HIV status and you can either like not answer it,
or you can say positive, undetectable, negative, et cetera. And
just the amount of people that don't display that try
to hide that, and I know that it's because they've
had a lot of unprotected sex. And that goes with
(40:09):
the fact that they also probably would never go to
the doctor, especially if they have a wife or something,
because that's like the end of the world to them,
So they would never want to do that and then
it spreads so unknowingly. But gay and just queer people
(40:30):
of all genders, they in all sexualities, they really fear
going to the doctor in any context because especially the
last few years, you know, like Iowa was like one
of the first states to try to pass like anti
trans bathroom bands and things like that. So you just
never know when you go to the doctors that if
(40:52):
they're actually going to be an unbiased opinion. Like I've
I've had doctors' experiences back there where I would totally
tell that I was being judged for being gay, or
like they were like adamant asking about getting an STD
test when I was like, I'm not sexually active right now.
Things like that where it's just you avoid it because
(41:15):
you don't want to have to deal with another person
who's supposed to be like life saving that you know,
just makes you invalidated even further.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
That's definitely part of their feminine experience too, of doctors
just not taking them seriously or misinterpreting. We did an
episode on sexism and healthcare and there were stats on
that too, and also people of color being more likely
to die.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Gosh, Yeah, it's such a disgusting thing that so many
people in the health profession have, like this bias that
people of color have a higher pain threshold or a
higher pain tolerance, specifically black women. I know that. It's
just like so disgusting the amount of deaths and fatal
and casualties and in adequate care of black women because
(42:02):
they are black women.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Right. Well, let's take that now to Gabrielle Union and
her speech, and it does sound like she was obviously
advocating for a stepdaughter, but she wasn't doing it in
the palatable way that was expected because usually if there's
something like that in a speech and word ceremony, it's
(42:26):
someone who's white. It's someone who's very affirming, who's very gentle. Yes,
it doesn't sound like she did that.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
No, yeah, it's in my paper. I have like a
couple of examples of speeches that kind of do fit
that genre, and it's like one of them is Anne
Hathaway at an HRC event and it's like that's what
you think of when and she's like hopeful and we're
going to get through this, like I am here for
my queer brothers and sisters. But yeah, Gabrielle Union, for one,
(42:58):
being a black woman, of a stepmother, of a transgender
step daughter. Those are a lot of like unique intersections
right there. And she from the bat would just like
came out hot and angry and emotional, but not reckless.
She was like very very good at keeping herself composed
(43:20):
for how angry and like visibly shook she was about
the state of things. And it was very much a
noteworthy speech because I think people were just kind of
like jaw open after she stopped talking. They were not
ready for that as an acceptance speech.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Yeah, and I think it would have been taken really
differently from a white woman too, and you would never
even expect that from a man like no Aria. Just
the is the funny part there. Everyone's got to go
watch it. Oh yes, please, do I remember do we
google Gabrielle Union words?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Yes, google Gabrielle Union and double acp he Image Awards.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Okay, being a stepmother too, I realize is it's almost
like harder for people to understand. Yeah, wait, that isn't
even your kid and you still care that much.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, And I know she gets a lot of flack
for that, for people saying, like, why are you doing
all of this? That's not even your kid, and she's like, yes,
it is my kid, And I witness what she has
to deal with every single day, like, of course I'm
going to fight tooth and nail for this.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Yeah. Sorry, I'm a good person. Yeah my bad.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah. It feels like she was punished for breaking the
rules of like what a good advocate is supposed to
look like.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Yeah, a lot of people were upset or calling her
unprofessional because of how like visibly passionate she was. And
I think that it's just so humorous because if she
would have gone up their dead pan and just thanked them,
and she would have gotten flack for not caring or
(45:04):
for getting this award and not voicing her disgust for
the way that they're being treated. And she did, but
she just didn't do it in the way that was
appropriate for society to digest. And so it was she's
so unprofessional, like she's just an angry black woman. That
(45:24):
was very much they gave her, like the angry emotional
black woman trope, which is such a harmful stereotype in
society already. And I just think it's so so interesting
when if assists had male were to give a speech
and get emotional or like angry and like shake his
(45:45):
fist or whatever. It would be triumphant or like a
big hurrah, but instead it's like she's aggressive and emotional
and unstable.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
I had a friend walk into a cafe where I
work and he was pushing a stroller. We were all like,
oh my god, your baby's sitting like, oh my god,
look at you. Like but then I stopped myself and
I was like, why is it a big fucking deal
that you're pushing a stroller? Like it shouldn't be this
kind of attitude of like if a man does something
to help a child, like we just approach it so differently. Yeah,
(46:20):
whereas for women, it's like you're expected to be the caretaker,
but then if you get emotional on behalf of the
person that you're taking care of, now that's a problem too.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yes, why do men get a gold star for doing
the bare minimum? Because then that just makes them think
that the bare minimum is gold star worthy. Yeah, and
it's like, well, yeah, there's not, like we're already scrape
in hell at the at the bottom of the barrel
right now.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Like the bar is a dive in here.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, but then women who are told to be the caretaker,
the caregiver clearly if they don't do that in the
correct way. Especially I've heard definitely that trope of the
angry black women, and that people are almost taught like
make sure to avoid that, be careful with.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
What you say, yep, and that, Like I know, it's
another thing of the angry black woman. It's society doesn't
take her as seriously because she's reactive and emotional and
whatever this trope is. But like in this instance, like
with Gabrielle Union, it's like, who the hell wouldn't be
(47:31):
angry and emotional if their child was getting like attacked
and victimized every day? Like what did I don't understand
what tone was appropriate.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
I don't understand the Turf's approach to this in that
they'll say that a trans woman is just a man
in a dress. But it's like, that's a person who
I know was aggressively bullied, victimized all growing up, like
more than anything I can relate to primarily bys have men.
It's like, how are you lumping them together when this
(48:04):
is someone who is socialized. Even if you don't agree
like oh, they grew up as a woman. Can you
at least agree that they didn't grow up being treated
like a says gendered man.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Yeah. Absolutely, And we don't have that same harshness towards
trans men all the time because for one, there quote
unquote passable, a bit easier. And also it's just that
men aren't viewing women as superior in any way or
(48:36):
as a threat, and so a trans man to them
is still a woman and that isn't scary by any
means whatsoever. But a trans woman is a man, and
so we're going to be violent and aggressive and actually
detrimental to that person. It's so so wild to me
(48:59):
because how do you recognize one but not the other.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
No, I've totally noticed that too, and where it's like
it's okay to be non binary as long as you
look feminine, right, and like it's okay to be a
lesbian but not so much a gay man. And yeah,
let's make some connections between these two papers before we
wrap it up. Obviously, apps and someone's interaction with those
(49:24):
apps and award shows and the ramifications that there are
different platforms. But what I was seeing is that there's
just negotiations with patriarchy going on. Yeah, and Also the
visibility doesn't always go well for you, almost like just
because you have this space where you can connect with
other gay men, or just because you're able to get
your message out there, there's still just risks associated with it,
(49:45):
and it might even lead to stigma and backlash to
a greater degree, which isn't fair.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Right absolutely. I Also that made me think of just
that when you're talking about any LGBTQA plus issues, there
isn't a right way because there's never historically been a
way to talk about these people, or to have arguments,
(50:13):
or to like express yourself in a normal way. And
so like everyone's still grasping what the normal is or
what idealistically a group is and that makes it on
both ends, the pro and the anti they're very sensitive
about everything because it's like this was not how it
(50:35):
should have been presented, or this is not how you
should have portrayed our community when there's no guidelines to
go by, like everyone's just trying to pave the way
for there to be a norm.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
That's a good point. No, people of all flavors have
existed forever, but they haven't always been acknowledged or allowed
to exist openly. Like I was gonna say, like they
are now, but it's kind of more like like they
sort of were for a little bit right, kind of
aren't again.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Like they like they got almost got teased for a
little tiny minute there.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Oh you want to have rights, Absolutely not, you've got.
I wonder if even were there people who are pro
trans rights who were not in favor of Gabrielle Union's
speech there. I don't. I don't know, but I think
the left also has a habit of eating its own tail,
and people who are so closely aligned just getting into
(51:32):
fights over small things. Where's the right? There's just such
a spectrum and then they're just like, you know what
make America crade again? Baby? Uh like just they're being
more productive and more unified.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Right, Yeah, and you're you're still right there. They're damn
good at camaraderie. Yeah, they and we are very good
at nitpicking each other to smithering and.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
Yes, yes, healthy critiques and back and forth are great,
but we have to find our common grounds well when
it's usually over things that are very valuable.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
So we've been talking about these spaces that should offer freedom,
like dating apps that are for a certain kind of
community media platforms that should be a good way to
get a message out, but they're still very shaped by
the system of patriarchy, white supremacy, and moral judgment too.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
It's almost like you are given these little avenues to
voice your opinion on it, but if you want it
to make any waves, you have to do it through
the heteronormative lens and the white lens of the masses. Otherwise, unfortunately,
it doesn't persuade the majority of people, which really sucks.
(52:48):
But it's just something I think that queer advocates and
queer people always have to think about.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
And this is also part of why I can't take
an approach of like all CIS men deserve to die,
because I also need that allyship. I need it from
all over because there are a lot of people who
will not listen to a fem person, so you need
to have someone who has a different kind of privilege
than your own to be heard.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
That makes so much sense.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Yeah, sadly, well, we are out of time, so we're
gonna wrap it up. And this is the part where
I say I am a Sandrist memes on Instagram, and
then we can say together, I'll say, and we are
And then we'll say sad Gap dot podcast. Let's see
how it goes. Let's see okay, and we are sad
Gap dot podcast. That was it. That was good. We
(53:40):
did a good job. You can email us at sad
Gap dot podcast at gmail dot com. You can visit
our website sad gapdh podcast dot com. Patreon has ad
free episodes Patreon dot com, slash sad Gap. Thank you
so much for being here, Dakota. I really appreciate you
coming in, sharing your papers, sharing your insights. It was
lovely to chat with you well.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely
popping my podcast cherry with you.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Okay, now you're saying we're stronger together.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
And we're stronger together.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
We'll see you next time. Bye, yes, perfect, Bye bye
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