94: On the Audacity of Living as a Feminist Out Loud

Today we sit down with writer Chloe Marie Stillwell for a whirlwind of stories -- from pissing off Lady Gaga with a viral Ed Sheeran takedown to Chloe's journey with recovery, and everything in between. We talk about her experience writing for Playboy, finding internet fame via (an also viral) mugshot, and what happens when Dolly Parton’s publicist hates you. Plus: Sabrina Carpenter’s “Man’s Best Friend” album cover. Satire, setback, or a secret third thing?


Follow her on ig! @chloemariestillwell

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi, Hello, and welcome to Sad Girls Against the Patriarchy.
I'm Alison and I'm Chloe, and we are your Sad Girls.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Chloe Maurice still Well.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
We have a new face, a new voice on the
podcast today. I'm so excited to have you here.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm very excited to be here. Yay.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Chloe is recording all the way from Tennessee, Nashville. Yes,
that's in Tennessee, right it is.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
Yeah, but it's a blue island, so I always like
to specify because the state as a whole can be
quite terrifying.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Right, You're like, don't worry, I'm not a Republican. No,
I'm not an inceel promise. Chloe is a who listens
to the podcast and contacted a while ago to visit
us virtually to.

Speaker 4 (01:06):
Come on to guests. And finally I made that happen.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
I bookmarked that as soon as you messaged, and then
now we're doing it. Do you remember what episodes you've
listened to? By any chance, you don't have to, but I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Just always curious what you liked or what was your favorite.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
Anything with deep backstory about things that affect us today.
I'm always into that information. I really liked the episode
about the history of the IQ test.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah, and how that's been like.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
Weaponized because there's so many factors of the patriarchy that
people don't realize our part of it. Like it's not
just woman hating, it's not just equal pay. Like there's
so many little nuances that all add up. And so
I love a good deep dive always.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, Chloe is a writer and has sent me some
pieces that she's written over time.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
You wrote for Mike for a while.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yes, I was at Mike for a long time. I
was at Playboy for a long time. That was one
of my favorite jobs because they let me be a
feminist writer at a men's magazine, you know, in the
grand scheme of things, I know Playboy is complex and nuanced, but.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, let's go there first. I feel like, what do
we think about Playboy as a whole?

Speaker 3 (02:24):
When I started working there, they had I think, yeah,
they had just brought back nudes.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Okay, so they had.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
Outlawed them, I think in like twenty fifteen, not out outlaws,
they had stopped making that their primary focus. And it
was interesting, like the whole time I worked there, men's
reactions to finding out I was a writer for Playboy.
They would always make the joke like, oh, you know,
I read it for the articles, and I just wanted

(02:52):
to projectile exorsus vomit on them every time I heard that.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
And then they'd want to know, like.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
Well, do you ever do nude shoots too, and like
it's just gross. And you know, Playboy has a very
rich editorial historical history. And I started writing there at
the beginning of the first Trump administration and they let
me write about me too. They let me write a
column called Ask a Feminist, where people could write in

(03:19):
questions preferably I mean, the idea was to have men
genuinely ask questions of a woman who identifies as a
feminist about different things. They let me critique men and women,
and it was It was a really amazing platform, and
I felt really empowered by my editor at the time.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Okay, so it didn't feel like just this male dominated
world that was demanding certain things of you, Like you
had some freedom.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
I had a ton of freedom and also like a
lot of support. I wrote one of the wildest things
that ever happened back then in my time in journalism.
I wrote an article about Ed Sheeran, who I think
This was twenty seventeen. He was insanely popular at the time.

(04:06):
I forget the name of that song that was like
number one, I know.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
The one you mean. Yeah, it was a whole thing.
It was a whole thing.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
And I wrote an article about how the lyrics were
inherently misogynistic and this like, you know, redheaded soft boy
with like a forward facing, nerdy facade was kind of
cause playing in cell territory a little bit. Yeah, I
just I did a deep dive on how I didn't
appreciate the lyrics of the song and I thought it

(04:36):
was really weird people were celebrating.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
It so much.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
And I turned it into my editor and most actually,
maybe a lot of people don't realize that most writers
don't write the headline. The editor usually writes the headline,
and they can be really sensationalizing what's in the article
a lot of times to get people to click on it.
But he titled it ed Sheeran has a toxic masculinity problem.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
And I turned the.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Article in and left for a three day trip with
my partner at the time and his family and to
a place with no cell service or Wi Fi, so
I was off grid, and I We're driving back to Nashville,
and my phone just starts blowing up, like in the
most insane way it ever had ever.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
I had thousands of notifications.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
On like all social media platforms, and I was like,
holy fuck, what is what has happened? I realized that
this article has gone viral. My email inbox was full
of the most insane death threats I've ever gotten in
my life, just like I want you to get raped
in an alley, all the most awful stuff. And I
was used to that, having been a feminist writer for

(05:43):
a long time already, but this was the most like
vile it had ever gotten. People had screenshotted pictures of
my family from my Facebook and.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
Like gone, oh my god, I know where you live.
It was terrifying.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
And then it like got to the point where people
in Nashville were circulating it. And this one person in particular,
who I think was even potentially like an LGBTQ man,
which I mean internalized misogyny is.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Real, and no matter you're gay or straight, that's so true,
but it adds an extra layer of like, really, you're
gonna woman hate as a gay man. They're out there, and.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
I think this person had also hit on my dad
who was gay before.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Your dad's really hot, though, I'm sorry you just posted.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
He's gonna love that being broadcast, he say, but he is.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
And I realized he was gay, and I'm like, this
is why he's so hot, because gay men have better
hygiene and manners and posture, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
I know.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
I was talking to him today actually, and I was like,
you know, I met this person. I think they're like
six six or mid fifties, but look older because they've
partied really hard. And he went, I've partied really hard
and I looked younger, and I was like, well, that's
a rare dad.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
He must be using that retinal cream, staying on the stuff.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, all the good stuff he is.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
But but yeah he So this man in Nashville who
I think like booked burlesque shows too. It was all
very complicated, but he had like kind of a platform
and had posted my article and said something along the
lines of like I can't wait to hulk out quote
unquote on this bitch ass feminist. I'm so sick of

(07:24):
pussy pathos in music journalism.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
I hope like she gets what she deserved.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
And then of course everyone started flagging it and being like, hey,
like you're making vocal threats against a female journalist who
lives in the same city as you.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Okay, but pussy Pathos is like the new band name.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
I gotta say, I think we should comment your pussy
that's really good.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
It belongs everywhere.

Speaker 4 (07:50):
Podcast name, a spinoff.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
I love it meme Paige.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, so yeah, the long story long, that whole thing,
the cherry on top, and kind of when I finally
stopped paying attention to it and was like, whatever, I'm
gonna walk away from this. The whole thing was Lady
Gaga tweeted about it, like in a subtweet way she
did it mentioned my name or the article, but she
posted this like huge defensive ed seeran, and I was like, oh.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
No, I pissed off Gagaw. I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (08:20):
Well that's kind of good attention.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
And I don't know that's something about like no publicity
is bad publicity there. I mean, clearly there is if
they're fucking screenshotting your family and threatening you. But I
don't know, being recognized by Lady Gaga as kind of
a flaw.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
I'll take it. I'll be like I was like she
read it. Yeah, right, I know she knows who I am.
She doesn't like me.

Speaker 4 (08:43):
That's not the point. Don't focus on that pot exactly.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah. So that that was my time at Playboy.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
It was wild, wow, controversial.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, that's why I don't face reveal and link things
to my real name. There's just some layers of anonymity here.
But it's because I have had death threats. They seem
very unrealistic. Like I don't really think these people are
trying to comfort me, but just getting the like you
should be beheaded in public and your mom should die
kind of a thing.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
Right.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
I don't like it. I don't want people to do
that and know what I look like.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
Absolutely, and it's truly insane, and like, I feel like
the stereotype of it's usually some guy in his mom's
basement is like mean and reductive, but I feel like
a lot of times sometimes sits accurate.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
And yeah, also like fair to point out too that.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
I mean, women can be pretty brutal as well, But
I don't know, I feel like women aren't reading hot
takes on the internet and threatening people's lives.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
No, we have other things to do.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, I think it's something about giving birth to humans
and bleeding every month, So experiencing pain in that way,
it's like I don't need to manufacture pain. It is
inherent to my biology. So I've find outlets on my own.
I just think there's something there in testosterone is really harmful.
And obviously the societal conditioning then being taught that they're

(10:08):
supposed to be agro and tall and big and protectors
and macho.

Speaker 4 (10:13):
Yep, all of that's really harmful.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
It's not exactly their fault, but it is their responsibility
to correct it.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
That that is it.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
Like I agree, and I've written about in my most
recent substact.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
I was writing about kind of like my.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
My newer version of feminism now that I am in
my mid thirties, Like I think it shifts over time,
and there's that whole like maiden to mother to crone
idea of like shifting in your femininity. And I think
now that I'm kind of in I am not a mom,
but in that motherhood era, you know it.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
I have more empathy for men, I think than I
used to.

Speaker 3 (10:50):
I mean, don't get me wrong, fuck the patriarchy, but
and any man who like can't wake up.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
But like one of my friends is.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
Telling me, who is a very you know, woke for
lack of a better term, sorry to use that word,
but like, he's a man who's done a lot of healing.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
We've been best friends for a long time.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
He's married to one of my other best friends and
has become this incredible husband and father. But it took
a lot of work and like, but we talk a
lot about his journey and he mentioned an Rikabadu podcast
where she was like talking to men and saying check
on your mail front, Like have you checked on a
man today? Like they need to talk to and they're

(11:30):
not going to do it without us kind of providing
a space. I mean that's complicated though, because it's like
women have been out here having to figure out our
own shit without coddling forever.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
We're encouraged to have platonic relationships more so, Yeah, and
find a lot of solace in that. And as people
get older too, you see these older women kind of
finding their like knitting groups and they're like church choirs,
and men don't really have that, and they do get.

Speaker 4 (12:00):
A lot more isolated.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
There's stats and studies on this of guys saying that
they don't have strong platonic relationships, especially as they get older.
I think that's evolving over time, but women do a
lot of them rank their platonic relationships as more important
than romantic which is adorable.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
I mean I've started to get to that point for sure,
and a lot of my friends have as well. As
Like your female friendships can be just as important as
a marriage and often require just as much work and
patience and understanding. And you know, I believe really big
time in the whole like date your friends concept of
like your friends who show up when you're sick and

(12:39):
who are there for you no matter what, Like those
relationships are just as paramount as romantic ones.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
So are you a person who despite all of this?
I think you identify as a feminist killjoy on your Instagram,
which I support, or maybe I just projected that.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Okay, I'll take it happily. Same do you Are.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
You able to find fulfilling romantic relationships with men or
has that been a struggle.

Speaker 4 (13:10):
It's been a struggle for me, That's why I'm asking.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
I can feel the camaraderie through the through the phone. Yes,
Oh yeah, I so. I spent about ten years in
back to back like with just a couple months in between.
You know, what's the phrase serial monogamy. They were intense
committed like live in relationships. And it was ten years,
like a five year one, a three year one, and

(13:34):
a two year one, and like looking back on it now,
I mean I just got clear of it, you know,
maybe two years ago when I went to rehab and
got sober and that started the whole healing journey. But
looking at the abuse of those ten years was and
you know, I wasn't perfect and was absolutely mired in

(13:54):
addiction and in trauma, and you know it's all nuanced
and complicated, but you know it went from physical abuse
to mental abuse to emotional abuse. And now that I've
I'm in this way more centered supported era trying to
date has been a fucking comedy of errors. Like it

(14:17):
is just I am at the circus and I have
the horn and I'm honking it like I don't.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Know what clown I am a clown.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yes, I am hardcore the clown, but I don't And
like I spend probably too much time thinking about like
am I attracting things I still need to heal? And I,
you know, is my abandonment wound, you know, all the
healing mumbo jumbo that is very important. But sometimes I think,
like one of my like yogic mentors said to me

(14:49):
one time, like not everything means something like sometimes shit
is just fucked up and people suck. You can have
your sucky moments and it's not always some cause my
lesson and I don't know it's it's interesting, but I
just feel like every time.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Men have also.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Gotten really fucking good at lying, Like I think because
of social.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Media skills, they're getting smarter.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
One guy I was talking to who was like he
isn't he like he works in recovery and is sober,
and that was like a green flag for me, and
he used fucking words like I just want to approach
this relationship intentionally hill coated yes, and like I'm listening

(15:39):
for the buzzwords and they know them now, so it's
like you can't trust them. My favorite thing that happened
recently on a date though with this it was absurd.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
I'm on a date with this man and we're at a.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Loud bar that I did not want to go to
because I don't like to sit at bars. This is
soaper I will sit at a bars sober person, but
there's just like so much other things to go do.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
I feel, and yeah, it's like not the energy necessarily.
I work around a lot of people in recovery through
one of my jobs, but I've flirted with that world.
I do want to get into that a little bit later,
but I know that just in a bar, it's kind
of like you're at a party that you weren't invited
to and you're like you don't really know the host

(16:23):
and they're all playing a game, but you're not playing
the game with them.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
That is an excellent way to put it.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
Yeah, the energy is just different too, because like everyone's
there kind of it's it's the merger of like kind
of hookup culture and getting fucked up and do your
thing everyone and like, to be also quite clear, there's
not a great word for my version of sobriety. I am,
like I guess California sober, so I still do my thing.
Alcohol is just like absolutely not in my life anymore.

(16:51):
But but yeah, this it's interesting too. A lot of
guys have been like taking me on dates knowing I'm sober,
and then they still are like very jones to get
drunk and I'm always.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Like what is that logic? Like a red flag, it's
oh yeah, it's she's up the flagpole waving.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
But so this man was like getting drunk in front
of me at a bar, and I asked him because
one of my negotiation non negotiables is voting. Still, you know,
I know the whole system is flawed and fucked, but.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
You should try try, like just do it.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
It take a couple hours and go do it just
in case it works. And it's also just a really
good entry point question into politics of just like hey,
because this was maybe back in February, so the election
is still pretty fresh, and like, did you vote?

Speaker 2 (17:38):
And he was.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
Like, you know, I just I was too quote pissed
off about Palestine to vote for her. And I'm like, okay, obviously,
yes we all were, but a she was the vice
president for all of that. You know, she's not making
I think people are very confused about the role of
a vice president.

Speaker 4 (17:57):
Often, and Trump is a huge supporter of Israel, so it's.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Not like, yeah, look what has happened.

Speaker 4 (18:02):
I feel like he's going to change anything for you.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
He made it worse. And now like look where we
are over here.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
You know, if anything it kind of hampered our capacity
to help because now we're fighting for people to just
not be deported here, and yeah, it's so complex. And
so I was just kind of pushing back on that
and was like, you thought Trump would be better and
he started saying that he thought he was more qualified
because he'd been president.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Before he was bad at it, Yeah he was.

Speaker 3 (18:30):
And I'm like, this is insane logic right now, because
this guy very much identified as not a misogynist man.
He seemed liberal, has a lot of liberal friends, love
to talk about how he had a bunch of gay friends,
and he did not seem like the type to woman
hate necessarily. But so while this conversation's happening, he's getting
like louder and louder, and it's a loud bar and

(18:52):
people are starting to give me like the are you okay? Looks,
and it escalated to him yelling like women are just
as bad as men, Like, look at.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
Any woman in power. They women want to get.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
To power just as much as men and are just
as evil when they get it, and was slamming his
little hands on the bartop at this point.

Speaker 4 (19:11):
His little hands, I love a specification.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
They were little, tiny man stubby little fingers. At the
end he told me, he was like, women have been
running the world since the jaunt of time.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
And wow, so nobody told me I need to do
more idea. Yeah, I was like, say more.

Speaker 3 (19:33):
He was like, well, you know that phrase behind every
man is a more powerful woman, Like all of the
greatest men in history have had wives that fill their
heads with ideas.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
And I just started laughing. I'm like, your.

Speaker 3 (19:49):
Argument that women are equal to men is that the women,
the wives of powerful men, have been secretly controlling them.

Speaker 4 (19:57):
It's like a meme or a joke or a trope
and a TV show.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
Do you want to hear the embarrassing end to this, Yes,
of course I do.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
I'm gonna I shouldn't be saying this on a podcast,
but I don't care because honestly it's wild. Fuck that guy,
but I ended up like giving him one more chance
because he apologized, like we addressed it, et cetera. And
I was like, Okay, maybe this is my lesson. I'm
bad at walking away when the red flags are like
carnival level.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
The clown in the carnival, Yes, a pantsless clown, just
assless chaps.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
But so I let this man go down on me, okay,
And afterwards he proceeded, and I'm not gonna lie.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
He was good at it.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
And afterwards he proceeded to tell me you can cut
this also later if it's.

Speaker 4 (20:48):
Too vulgar, but I probably won't, he told.

Speaker 3 (20:51):
Me, and I quote, I can't wait to put my
tongue in your asshole. And I was like, okay, we can.
We can talk about that later. Cool bookmark that got it.
And I was like, oh, well, and you were really
good at that, and he like pulled me close into
him and.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
Was like can you not say it like that?

Speaker 3 (21:11):
And I was like what? And he was like can
you not say like you're good at that? And I
was like why and he was like that sounds like
something a porn star would say, like that's very porny.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
And I was like, you just told me you wanted
to put your tongue in my asshole.

Speaker 3 (21:27):
It's not porny, it's just and for these reasons, I'm
not dating anymore right now.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
No, that wasn't too vulgar at all.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
I was just looking at a meme that was like
men will say they don't want commitment, but.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
They're ready to lick your buttthole.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yes, I've encountered that, and it's a little confusing.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
I feel like there's some steps to take before you
get there.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
I don't know. I've always said it, called me old fashioned.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
Yes, if they eat your ass, they're avoidantly attached.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Oh it's a T shirt. I want to make it.

Speaker 4 (21:56):
Wow, you're so right that note.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
Let's take our first break and then we will come back.
And I would love to talk about recovery and its
intersection with feminism, et cetera. Recovery so it sounds like

(22:24):
alcohol was your main thing. I also wanted to say,
California sober. All the people I know around here who
are in recovery, they do other they do shrooms, they
do ecstasy, they do a little sugar like it's a thing.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
I love a light microdost experience in many forms. I've
been introduced to some other plant medicines outside of like
shrooms that have been super helpful for me, especially because,
like you know, I've been in entertainment a long time.
I was raised by musicians. I love a good party.

(22:59):
I'm a heist, I am a pleasure beast. But for me,
the party was wrecking my life. So I had to
do a hard pivot, yeah, but being having things to
just like I mean and know shade whatsoever obviously against
people who are completely sober, but for me, like I
still go out with friends and dance all night and

(23:21):
have so much fun, but it's like I don't feel
like shit the next day. I remember everything. I haven't
usually made decisions that I'm humiliated by, and it's been
so freeing. And people ask me all the time, like,
you know, do you think you'll ever drink again? Or
like is this just like a reevaluation period? And I

(23:42):
know I'm very lucky to be able to feel this way,
and I'm also aware that it could change at a
certain point, but having a drink again is like repulsive
to me at this point, Like it just that's not
for me.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
And you know, I I don't.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Judge or you know, everyone's on their own journey. My
friend and I call it the don't dem your light
club at this point of just like do whatever you
want to do, but don't dim your light, Like are
you having genuine fun?

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Are you expressing yourself how you want to?

Speaker 3 (24:15):
You know, but also a lot of substance to you know,
it's like if someone's not in that place, because I
know where I was like, they're usually masking trauma, they're
self medicating, and there's no judgment in that.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
It's all human, it's all real. No, That's what I
have heard on doing my own addiction research.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
There was an Andrew Huberman guest. He's a great podcast host.
He's a neuroscientist. He is. He is also a scoundrel.
Every time I fucking say his name. Have you heard this?
I just want to slander him I as much as
I can. I every time I.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Liked the scientist part of him.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
I know he like has kind of perpetuated some junk
science though, right and like biohacky.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
He had five girlfriends at the same time, and one
of them he was doing VF with. He was fucking
like paying for IBF, for supporting her through IBF while
he was like playing other women. I mean, he's got
like sex addict vibes going on. There's a real article
about it, and he was just defensive and shut it down.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
And I got.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Literally triggered reading this. They gave all the men who
have cheated on me. I'm reading about these women who
he just double crossed and lied to their face. And
it just made me feel disgusting. So he is a
wonderful scientist. He has said some bad things in the science,
something that I don't agree with in terms of a
scientific approach, but more importantly scoundrel.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
Asshole, piece of shit.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Sorry, yeah, I was gonna that that was not at
all the point I always get derailed talking about fucking
Andrew Huberman.

Speaker 4 (25:41):
I listened to his podcast so much. I have a
bone to pick.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
I get that, And I feel like a lot of
the biohackey men like end up in a weird like talkic.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
What is biohacking place?

Speaker 3 (25:52):
It's like it's basically the commodification of wellness in America
times ten of just like doing all the things to
like reverse age and build muscle, when you know it's
unrealistic expectations of wellness.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
We live in a society.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yes, he had a guest, Yeah, and he was talking
about addiction. He was an addiction specialist, this guest, and
the guy was saying that so much of the work
he does with addicts is teaching them how to experience
their bad feelings and just like stand through them. And
you've learned a lot of really negative coping mechanisms, because
feelings can be overwhelming. And it's not self control or

(26:31):
low morals or anything. It's like, do I want to
be able to go to work and function or do
I want to like sit in the corner and rock
back and forth. And if the way I can literally
just have a functional life is by calming the demons
in a certain way.

Speaker 4 (26:45):
This isn't about hedonism.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
Sometimes this is about self preservation. So this guy was saying,
a big part of the work is just learning how
to deal with that without turning to the vice.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
It isn't something that was really healing for me because
I went to rehab. I was actually, you know, this
is a feminist, anti patriarchal podcast.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
Like I was raped.

Speaker 3 (27:10):
In twenty twenty three and that led to like my
most violent period of substance abuse, and that led to
me getting roofed. I was not sober, but like I
was roofed and woke up in jail. Thank god, I
hadn't you know, hurt anyone, but I got a dui

(27:32):
and it was just this. I woke up the next
day after getting out and was covered in this full
body rash. I was violently sick, and by that point
my mugshot had gone viral. Oh my god, my phone
was a nightmare of chaos.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
It was one of the worst days of my life.

Speaker 3 (27:50):
And that was the day, you know they talk about
your rock bottom moment where I was like, okay, Like
I have two choices, and I think one will lead
to death. And so I went to rehab and then
I spent some time in AA afterwards, because they're pretty
insistent about that in rehab, which is understandable, and I
appreciate what I learned in those spaces, and they one

(28:14):
hundred percent were part of saving my life. But another
part was when I realized that I need I needed
to re enter the chat like what I think and feel.
And being told that I had a disease that was incurable,
that I would be fighting tooth and nail every day
for the rest of my life and if I ever

(28:34):
gave up an inch of that fight and stopped having
and working a program, I would end up dead. Was
just that was the most hopeless thing in the world
to me, honestly, and not drinking and cocaine was also
a huge part of my addiction was incredibly hard. When

(28:55):
I was sitting in church basements every day talking about
out how hard it is to not do them. And
the second I took a step back and started kind
of reclaiming my life with other things, I stopped thinking
about those things. And I know I'm lucky in that,
and I support the program and I'm glad it's there.
But there also was like every friend I'd made in

(29:18):
recovery abandoned me when I left the program, and it
was it was an intense time, but I knew I
had to make that decision for myself.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
To be healthy.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, recovery is a complicated landscape.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
But I also realized the word addict is kind of
always ascribed to you forever if you go to rehab.
And for some people that identity is helpful, you know,
saying I am an addict, therefore I must do these
things to protect myself. I get that, But for me,
I was like, no, I just had hell a PTSD

(29:53):
and a shit ton of horrific coping mechanisms and a
lifetime of like unnurtured trauma. And I was talking to
my friend about this and she was like, Oh, you
need to read What Happened to You, which is a
book co authored by Oprah and a neuroscientist because Oprah
had a traumatic, horrific childhood and this book's incredible.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
I had no idea it existed.

Speaker 3 (30:19):
But back in the late eighties she organized a symposium
of neuroscientists in Washington, DC because of all she was
seeing on her show of the trauma children were going through,
and got all these neuroscientists together to start talking about
how childhood trauma affects the brain. And so this book's

(30:40):
co authored by Oprah and a neuroscientist who kind of
is the grandfather of the idea of childhood trauma, etc.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
And the whole book.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
I was weeping as I listened to it because it
talks about how not feeling valued as a child literally
leads to your brain developing differently and taking longer and
all these things that.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
Oh, yeah, you know, it's just it's not just addiction.
It's you're not just an addict.

Speaker 3 (31:07):
And I think there's something incredibly freeing and forgiving and
permission to change in feeling as though you can heal
parts of yourself and you don't have to identify as
an addict anymore if you don't want to.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
It's true, it's a very unique journey for everyone, But
I know a lot of people who had pretty healthy
childhoods and still had likely a genetic predisposition for addiction.
The people I know who had a better foundation had
an easier time of getting out as opposed to the
people where it's like, I've never been happy, I've never

(31:42):
been healthy. There's never a time, based on my childhood
trauma that I've been really stable. So when I found
a coping mechanism, a weighted blanket, like a comfort to
make that go away, it's harder to let go of
because it's not just falling into the substance abuse, it's
falling into sanctuary from broken what I call broken brain syndrome.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
Yeah, and I think my biggest thing with recovery is
just I want there to be more room for all
different kinds of stories, because I just when I was
in the program, I felt like there was just kind
of one narrative of addiction. And an addiction is real,
and I believe it is. I absolutely have a genetic
predisposition to it, and the neural pathways carved by addiction

(32:27):
are like an insanely hard to regroove. But yeah, that
was my journey to where I'm at now. Where I
love to microdose mushrooms.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
And I'm happy.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yeah, that's great and it's been really healthy for me
present day.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
But it was a long winding road.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
You posted something about overlap of I wish I could
look it up on my phone. I literally was just like,
where's my phone? And I'm like, oh, yeah, we're like
talking on it right now, got it. I've got three
I've got like four screens up screen minimum. But you
posted something about kind of like society urging us to
drink and supporting patriarchy, and I didn't look further.

Speaker 4 (33:09):
I think it might have been pinned. Do you remember
what this was?

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah? I think this might have been like my last
sub stack. Yeah, that sounds right.

Speaker 3 (33:19):
I was talking about feminism. One book that's incredible for
anyone who just wants to like dip a toe in
reevaluating their relationship with alcohol that's not necessarily a recovery
book is Quit Like a Woman by Holly Whittaker. That
was the first book I read when I started wanting

(33:40):
to get sober in twenty twenty, and she does an
incredible job of getting into the history of propaganda around
alcohol and how Edward Burnet is the inventor of modern
day pr as we know it. It all started with
the tobacco industry and how like they they realized that

(34:02):
women didn't.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
View it as lady liked to smoke.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
It culminated in this wild campaign to get women to smoke,
and they turned the cigarette into the torch of lady
liberty and got the suffragettes to start hosting like parades
where they were smoking in the streets as kind of
a fuck you to men of we can do.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
The same thing.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
And like, I get all of that, but underneath was
this sinister thing to get women hooked on cigarettes. And
then big alcohol took the page out of that playbook
and started telling women that if they wanted to be
in the boardroom they needed to drink like a man,
and all this kind of marketing. So there is an
inherent patriarchal influence in women drinking. There's a connection there.

(34:51):
In no way do I think, you know women who
drink are like falling under like some patriarchal spell, like
do what you want to do?

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Girl, Yeah, we need to get our numbers up represent baby. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
I totally think that women who still drink, You know,
if you have a healthy relationship with alcohol. That's not
a failure of feminism by any means. But I also
think women who suffer from addiction get I don't know
the statistic on this, but I remember learning it. It's
like they get an insanely smaller percentage of the amount

(35:30):
of help from the recovery industry.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
They're shamed more for it.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
You know, it is way less socially acceptable for a
woman to be you know, the same way it's less
socially acceptable for a woman to have sex like a man,
it's less socially acceptable for a woman to drink like
a man. And that's kind of where I'm at with
the patriarchy and alcohol.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yeah, yeah, no, I am remembering that twice as many
men are considered addicts than women, and that certainly is
seem true in the communities that I've seen, and a
big part of that. We did an episode I think
it was just on addiction, but we were seeing that
there is such a trend of women being judged and

(36:14):
shamed and not being seen as good people if they're
like a drunk fluozy. But for men, it's just wrapped
up into masculine culture of having beer with the guys
and By the way, my rant about beer is that
it's like the manly drink. It's like five percent ABV
in a twelve ouncecan. I have to drink like five

(36:35):
beers to get a buzz.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
You have two glasses of wine like.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
Half the calories, double the alcohol content. And those like
girly drinks like an espresso martini or Long Island iced tea.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
It's just straight liquor. That's my little Like okay, boy,
I like that foot.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
It just doesn't make sense, like I have to have
I have like a thousand calories and eat like ten
loaves of bread to get a buzz, and then you
just have like a vodka soda. So anyway, boys, early
up your drinks if you really want to get somewhere.
But women's bodies are not as good at processing alcohol tragically.
It's just a fact, and like the hangovers are worse.
There's the social element, the shaming element. Oh yeah, I'm

(37:13):
not taking it seriously. I don't think people see like
younger women as potential alcoholics. Like it's like, oh no,
an alcoholic is like a middle aged man who beats
his wife. You don't look at like a twenty five
year old girl and take take it seriously that she
might need help.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
Yeah, and you know, we do live in a society too,
where like it's.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
I don't know. On the one hand, I do know
that my own journey.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
Was full of people who begged me to get help earlier,
and like, you just don't get to that place until
you get to.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
That place on your own.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
But also I think part of that is societal too,
because it's so shameful to be an addict and need help.
And you know, I actually have a couple friends right
now who, like, you know, I've seen get get to
places with substances that are scaring me. But like the
whole group consensus is like, well what do we do?
They don't seem to want help, and they're women, you know,

(38:09):
And like, I don't know if that is different for
that situation too. Yeah, I mean, the whole substance issue
is so complicated because, like I said at the same time,
like if you want to boof coke at a rave,
do your thing, have your fun, maybe have a friend

(38:29):
with narcan and test your drugs harm reduction please. Yes,
I think all drugs should be legal, and that would
absolutely reduce people overdosing and having fucked up shit like
fentanyl in their drugs. But I also think prostitution should
be legal. I don't know, Yeah, and doing things like
that would help destigmatize all of this stuff. And something

(38:53):
I've had to face in recovery is that black and
white thinking is part of addiction brain. And so this idea,
like you just said that, the idea of you're bad
if you do these things.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
Is so not true.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
And I also I see all the time, like the
weird perspective that if someone's successful and does drugs and
drinks a lot, it's not that's just cool.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
But if they're not, then it's addiction and.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
Shameful and sad and a failure of Sometimes even people
look at it as a failure of morality, you know,
And that's all just super fucked up.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, there's a meme that's like, there's a list of
things that are cool if you're rich, and.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Awful if you're poor, and one of them is drugs. Yes,
I remember that.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, let's take her a second break and then come
back and talk about your interview with Dolly Parton.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Oh boy, okay, great.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
You had the opportunity to interview Dolly Parton for Mike,
and it was mostly about COVID nineteen protocols, but it
looks like there was also a question snuck in there
about her thoughts on Roe v.

Speaker 4 (40:17):
Wade as well.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
Yes, so that, yeah, that was back in twenty twenty one,
you know, when like masking and the vaccine were still
big topics, and it was really cool of her she said,
you know, it wouldn't hurt anyone to wear a mask,
and for Dolly Parton, I think that was pretty progressive
because she had so many conservative listeners and you know,

(40:39):
there's that meme the one thing we can all agree
on is Dolly Parton and things like that. So yeah,
she's a unifying force. And I am from Tennessee originally
and some of my family is from East Tennessee, where
she is from. So like she I threw up before
that interview, I was so fucking nervous, I will lose

(41:00):
my mind. And everyone was like, he just calmed the fuck.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
Down, and did you like get your shit together in
crisis mode it in a good way.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
I did.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
But so part of what happened was, you know, Mike
was a New York based magazine. I worked remotely from
Nashville and I had the most incredible editors there, but
I think there was this disconnect of not just the
import of Dolly Parton, because I remember when they asked
me if I wanted to interview her. I was like,
are y'all being real? And they were like, yeah, we
weren't sure if we should do it or not. And

(41:31):
I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah,
I want to do that, and it should be like
the lead story for a week because it's Dolly Parton, right.
But when we were workshopping questions, I'm probably not going
to get all these facts correct because it was a
few years ago, but it was like the Mississippi case
had just gone to the Supreme Court. I forget the
name of the Mississippi case that led to Oberfell, but

(41:54):
the writing was on the wall that they were laying
the groundwork to overturned Row, and.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
They said, you should ask that.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
That needs to be One of our questions is how
she feels about that, And as a Tennessee and lifelong
Dolly Parton fan, she's no choice. She doesn't talk. That's
part of why she's universally loved. She doesn't talk about
deep politics. She will very surface level stuff. I mean,
she supports the gays, and hell yeah that's not surface level,
that's impactful.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
But now that's much more universally accepted. There's been such
a trend, even on the right, like now they're like, yeah, okay,
gay marriage is okay for the most part.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Exactly. She wasn't Elizabeth tayloring it. But what does that mean?
What did Elizabeth Taylor do?

Speaker 3 (42:38):
I'm pretty sure like Elizabeth Taylor was like one of
the first actresses to like stand up for male okay
LGBTQ actors in Hollywood who were getting like shunned from
film studios. My dad's obsessed with Elizabeth Taylor, so I
hear a lot of her lore. It has not been
fact checked by anyone but my gay dad. He's a

(43:00):
historian of pop culture, so I believe him.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
He's my next guest believe gay men. Oh my god,
he would be hilarious.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
But anyways, interviewing Jolly Parton, I told my editors like,
we don't need to ask that question. It's gonna wreck it.
She's gonna get pissed. She might even in the interview.
I think this is a bad idea, And they were like, naw, girl,
you have to ask it. And I could have done
something a little devious and just not and told him
I did because the interview was private between me and her.

(43:31):
But I don't know, maybe there was a little part
of me that was curious.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Oh yeah, I would have wanted to stir the pot
just a tiny bit, right, there's no moreman asking, I
feel no.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
And so the interview.

Speaker 3 (43:45):
Also, I think she had had a whole press day
and I was her last interview, so she wasn't in
a great mood, which is fair. Yeah, and her publicist
had called to ask if we could shift from zoom
to phone, which I think just like already removes a
layer of intimacy of being able to see one another.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
So yeah, we were.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
Already kind of off to a very distant start, and
I asked her and she very quickly was like, I
do not talk about my politics. Next question please, And
then the rest of the interview was pretty sour and
she got off very quickly.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
I cried, Oh, oh, I just so sorry. You threw
a band you cried around this interview, Dolly, I love you, Dolly.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
No.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
I wrote down what she said.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
It said in the article I steer away from controversial issues.
Of course, I have my own thoughts and my own opinions,
but I don't voice those publicly. I don't address those
kind of things, so we can move on from that.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Yeah, that was part of the next layer that made
this whole experience, like interviewing and getting to write about
Dolly Parton should have been a highlight of my career
and I to this day just like getting off just
when I think about it, because sending her was very difficult.
But also it got worse because when I wrote the article,

(45:08):
we decided because of the way she answered questions, to
just do a lengthy intro and then a transcription. Okay,
and my editors included the transcription of that question and
the answer because to them, and I don't disagree with this,
a non answer is an answer.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Oh yeah, I mean she just answers everything in a
very safe way.

Speaker 4 (45:28):
From what I got.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
I felt like this, like soft spoken advocacy, was a
cop out and a strategic move, so I see her diplomacy.
I also don't like when there is a popular woman
with celebrity status who doesn't use her platform to speak out,
and it just I'm a little sour on your behalf.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
I don't think you did anything wrong with that, thank you.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
And yeah, it was frustrating too, because Dolly Parton is
known for so many iconic feminist quotes, but it's kind
of this anti QUI tarted up feminism for men that
makes them giggle but also is still empowering. I feel
like I'm gonna get a million death threats for saying
anything negative about Dolly Parton.

Speaker 4 (46:09):
But no, I don't think those kind of people listen
to this podcast.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
I think they just see the description and they're like, no,
I don't want anything to do with this. I get
the threats from miss Sander's memes because that's like just
from skimming it, and in cell can get mad, but
they're not gonna sit and listen to an hour of us.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah that is true, You're fine. Yeah, they don't want it.
They don't want to engage with this.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
Well, and like you know, Dolly Parton says things like
it takes a lot of money to look this cheap,
which I love. So I'm like, at the very least,
I felt like she could have said like I want
women to have equal rights to men or something, sure lukewarm, but.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yeah, she could have just side stepped it and supported women.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
Exactly, but it went on for months. Her publicist kept
emailing me being like, we want that Q and A
that part of the Q and A redacted because they
were like, she didn't give an answer, so there's no
point for it to even be in there. And I
kept telling them I don't have the power to remove that.
Here's my editor's email, but she just kept emailing me

(47:15):
until finally I just had to ghost Dolly Parton's publicist.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
It's so funny, but that's kind of another flex. I
feel like, Lady Gaga shit talking your article and Dolly
Parton's publicist. You're making waves, You're doing something. I mean,
I know there's been consequences, but I feel like, oh,
well behaved women rarely make history. You might.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
I will absolutely stand on that. Oh thank you.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
Yeah, if you're not making people angry, you're probably not
doing anything noteworthy, and you're just being lukewarm and giving
soft advocacy, and that's not very I don't think that's
a very bold move. But also, it doesn't feel good
to have people not like you, especially important people and
people you respect.

Speaker 4 (47:57):
That's not a good feeling. Just in a human way.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
It's not.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
But at the same time, I mean, I'm with you.
I feel I've been enjoying the whole like resurgence of
cringe and like people standing together that like the whole
anti cringe bullshit on the internet just keeps people from
being their authentic selves.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
And like, I don't know, I've.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
Never done anything good or important or seen anything good
and were important that didn't start from someone just like
being loud in themselves and not giving a fuck, like
rarely does someone packaging their ideas for a mass Like
I mean, look at Katie car Yeah, well.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
She's so funny.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
I feel like she gets a lot of hate unnecessarily,
although going to Space with the Girl Boss team was
a little tone deaf. But I just think she's kind
of a She's kind of a silly she's a silly
gown she is.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
I think Teenage Dream is one of the best pop
records of our generation.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
I what about Lana? I have we pitted this against Lana.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
I love Lana.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
An esthetic way and some of her music. She's not
my matron saying Okay, I'm a Rihanna girl first and foremost. Okay,
I mean, also, if we want to dip a toe
and talking about the Sabrina Carpenter controversy.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
Yes, that was on my mind for sure. Okay, so
she just had this album cover for Man's best Friend.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, what it's called you?

Speaker 4 (49:24):
By the way, you know way more about pop culture
than I do.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
I don't. I tried reading about I don't know. I
went online was like feminist issues today. I just felt
kind of sick, Like, I like researching stuff that's already
happened so you can actually form an opinion on it,
but riffing off of something that is still kind of
in development.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
I didn't. I didn't like it. But Sabrina Carpenter, what
do you think of this album cover? Just initial reactions.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
I mean, I'm not gonna lie this second I saw
the album cover, I kind of winced and was like,
and you know, since we're doing this audio. The album
cover is her kneeling with a man whose face you
can't see in a suit, holding her by the hair.
I think esthetically it's a very cool image, but you know,
initially seeing a woman who's maybe the most powerful popsar

(50:11):
in the world right now on all fours to a
man like I get the knee jerk, like, oh fuck,
what is that? But then I looked at it, and
first of all, she just put out a single called
Manchild that's all about the incompetence and abuse of modern
day millennial fuck boys, and so it's like she's already

(50:31):
set the tone for what this record's gonna be, which,
in my opinion would suggest that like it's a satire
and it's maybe more like short and sweet. Her last
record had a lot of romance songs on it, even
though I think arguably a lot of them had feminists undertones.
But like, I think this is gonna be more of
her feminist message. But at the same time too, it's

(50:55):
like I think there is this weird, ironic, rudish puritan
reaction in the feminist community sometimes to women celebrating their
own sexuality, and it's strange, and I think it's kind
of similar with like democratic or liberal whatever you want
to call it at this point in fighting, where like

(51:18):
we can't unify because we're too concerned with nuance and
semantics sometimes and oh yeah, I don't know. I think
she has every right to play with her sexuality because
she's going to be hyper sexualized no matter what, if
anything this is her kind of owning it, and I
think to remove her right to rewrite the narrative is

(51:39):
very backwards. I support it. And also Man's Best Friend
is kind of code for dog, which is kind of
code for bitch. Yeah, So like for me, it's like
that's her being like, hey, I'm going to be a
bitch now. And also I think, first of all, don't
kink shame, but second of all, like her kind of

(52:00):
looking straight into the camera and a subversive, subjugated position
is kind of mocking men to begin with, and like
how much they need women to propel their kinks and
their enjoyment and experience of women, Not that anything should
be about their enjoyment or experience of women first, right, Like,

(52:21):
I think it's her kind of turning that on its
head a little bit.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
That's my take on it.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
I mean that sounds right, especially based on her other music,
which I don't really know. It's crazy how much time
I spend online and like don't know what's going on
in the world. I guess the meme community is kind
of isolated in its weirdness, but I don't think most
people will read into it like that, Like we are
in a little feminist echo chamber. I feel in our

(52:49):
online feed in our communities, the algorithm only feeds me
Misshandra's content now, so most people looking at that, and
especially most men, I feel like we'll be like ooh second,
like she's on her knees and she's my little pet.
And I don't think there's anything wrong with having that
BDSM sub dom kink in your life. Projecting it like this,

(53:13):
I worry will be misinterpreted or just not interpreted thoughtfully,
which could perpetuate stereotypes that I want to be broken
down and art should be risky. And you're right, there's
no need to ever judge women for the choices they
make in their art in the way they present themselves.
That's not feminist in itself. But there was a meme

(53:36):
that was like, instead of recession indicator, it was like
recession of women's rights indicator, and like for the timing
of it all, I was like, yeah, I don't know
if we're we have a strong enough footing right now
to make this joke where feels.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
Like the timing might be a little off.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
I absolutely get that perspective for sure, And like I said,
my knee jerk when I first saw it was Oh no,
But then I just I want to believe that she's
a satirist and like this is all part of a
bigger thing that will make so much more sense when
the album comes out. Also, less we forget home role

(54:16):
is amping an album cycle controversy is very true thing
to court.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
That, like.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
Why not put out a risky album cover and say
nothing Like, yeah, no, I.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
Do love a strategic choice like that. And I think
women should use everything they have. Everyone use everything they have.
And I'm pro sex work as well or pro sex
worker for sure, and that if you can take advantage
of men wanting to take advantage of you and then
turn that on its head, sell your fucking album, please do,
especially if the content turns out to be very feminist.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
I've always said sex work is the oldest and most
honored profession and I wish that was a reflection of
that in society. And the knee jerk to sex work
in general too is just so patriarchal, because of course
they don't want us to commodify the one thing that
they commodify about us.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
It's just insane.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
Yeah, don't take the power back when they want to
hold it.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
For themselves.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
Someone I saw online brought up to Madonna putting out
her I think it was just called Sex Coffee Table
Book back in the eighties, and how like that, you know,
her being kind of the Sabrina Carpenter of that time,
putting her sexuality first and foremost and out there in
a subversive way because there was a lot of kink
in that book.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Was a feminist moment of.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
Her not it's like it's meant or society projects it
as being for the male gaze, But when can a
woman own it? Then if like anything she does sexually
is for the male gaze no matter what she says
or we perceive it as. So I don't know, I
don't know how I feel about that, but I thought

(55:56):
that was an interesting point to make, that like this
is a kin to that or could be.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
I wonder if Sabrina considered, like what if the man
was laying down and she had like her spiked heel
on his head and he had like a ballgag, So
that would be kind of the counter to this. I'm
just imagining the thought process that was, like it would
be or we flip that and then we get the
feminists talking about it. And the misogynist talking about it,
and then you buy my fucking album, bitch for sure,

(56:21):
although no one buys albums anymore. Never mind, I take
that back, But okay, so and of yeah, so you
can go ahead.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
Oh I should say one last thing I saw she
tweeted today. Someone tweeted at her the album cover and
said does she have a personality outside of sex? And
she just retweeted it and said yeah, and it's so
with a bunch of oh's good. It was like, Okay,
I think she's in on this, like she's not not
aware of what she's doing.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
I think she's too. I just worry that other people aren't.
And then that kind of has a backlash effect on
totally the rhetoric or whatever. But in the content that
you sent me a previous articles you've written, because we're
running out of time, but we could still dive into
something here if you want. So there's some material on

(57:08):
Blurredlines or Bridget Jones, Emily and Paris or mushroom dick
I think came up the.

Speaker 3 (57:15):
Mushroom dick article that was another Playboy article where they
named it in defense of mushroom dick.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
And yeah, the whole thing Stormy Daniel.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
It was about, yeah, after Stormy Daniel said, I don't
even want to say his name or think about his penis,
And in no way was a defense of either of
those things, but it was about how like belittling male
genitals seems to in my mind only that's only going
to like stoke violence against women, even though like I

(57:44):
don't know, do whatever you need to take down a
shitty guy. But you know, the whole point of that
article was kind of like reverse body shaming isn't necessarily
I think our number one tactic.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Yeah, that's one of those like it's okay if we
do it, but not okay if they do it. Kind
of a thing that is perhaps problematic. But like the memes,
then everything goes back to memes for me, But that
are like if your boyfriend says you're not allowed to
do that, that's a problem, But if your girlfriend says
he's not allowed to do that, then no, you shouldn't
and you shouldn't even be talking about it.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
I mean I always say listen to the women and
not the men, but like, yes, well.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
There's a power dynamic, and I also think that women
are maybe have more of a reason to body shame
as a way of taking back power.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
I agree entirely. Like I recently have started calling my
feminism spiritual feminism as as I've kind of evolved on
my healing journey, I've recognized that, like, my feminism isn't political,
it's it's spiritual. It's of my person and my being

(58:57):
and I And maybe this is like absolutely radical woo
wu nonsense to some people, and that's totally cool.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
I think y'all should take some psychedelics and think about it.

Speaker 4 (59:07):
But yeah, definitely in.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
My opinion, like women's bodies literally bring souls onto this
plane and the disillusion of the holiness of that. And
I use the word holy not in a religious context,
but like I think there's a reason why we say
women's intuition, Like you don't ever hear anyone talking about
men's intuition, like.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
See no evidence they have any that's not true.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
And now I'm just I mean, I'm being a dick,
but like, yeah, women are supposed to we have to
keep ourselves safe, is the thing. Like you learn we're
walking down the street and there's a guy. Sometimes he's
gonna harass us. We don't know what he's gonna do.
Sometimes we sense that he's not. You're on a date,
you don't know if you're gonna get date raped. Like
it's not naturally born into you. You grow up needing
to watch your back more so than men do.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
I mean that is true.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
I also and like I said, like this could be
absolutely woo woo to too much of a degree, But
I believe in a divine masculine and a divine feminine,
and that I believe in their ability to work together
and unlock each other. And personally, I think men are
a little more like they're in a power and intuition,

(01:00:17):
if you want to call it, that is more earthly
and more physical, whereas women are more etheral and like
maybe connected to a higher realm through childbirth. And I
personally believe that like religion has been meant to tamp
that down and subjugate it forever, because men are we
grow bones and brains inside our bodies and split open

(01:00:40):
to create life. Yes, they're fucking terrified of that, I think,
and want us to look at that as a sacrifice
to man and not our own inherent power a hindrance.
I'm getting on a very cosmic soapbox, But.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
Like we I don't remember which episode it was, but
we talked about like when did we start thinking of
women as submissive and as the weaker, less powerful sex
And there was no origin we could trace too. There's
a handful of matriarchal societies and the rest perpetuate this idea,
and that's what makes me so bitter. But yeah, I agree,
religion is a huge culprit there, because all the Abrahamic

(01:01:20):
religions preach that men are the head of the house.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
And women are there to serve men. And the more
we dig into that.

Speaker 4 (01:01:26):
The worse it gets for both sexes.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Yeah, but yeah, I give I say a lot of
like nasty, bitter things toward men that I'm always like
kind of half joking. And I do remind that I
have men who I do trust, who I'm very close to.
I do date men for better or worse, although I
always seem to pick the worst ones.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Same.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
Yeah, I was very public about the last one that
I recorded a whole episode on The No Good, Very
Bad Boyfriend and he had a very small penis, and
for a while I just went on this kick of
just like mocking men with small dicks and accusing them
of having small dicks, and it was like oh for
a few months, and then I started hearing myself doing it.
I'm like, okay, else, and I think it's time to
let this go because that was one person and you

(01:02:06):
need to stop body shaming men.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
So I know, I just went on about mushrimdecks, but
I still support it though, Like.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
I know, it's complicated.

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
I'm a man hater first and a man lover second,
and I hate the bad ones and love the good ones,
and there are amazing men out there, but we need
y'all to stand on business.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
Like there we go. Yes, yeah, I'm only nice to
men in private. I have a reputation to uphold.

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
Things.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Someone said they don't like the podcast because it's too misandrissed.
I'm like, well, I mean that's kind of the branding.
But like we do talk about how there's so much
potential here, but there needs to be a conscious effort,
just like so many women make a conscious effort to
heal their trauma and to put in the work. And
I'm sure we're all very pro therapy here and pro
self exploration and self reflection. I think that's why when

(01:03:00):
are into astrology and more just self.

Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
Just going inward.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
I was talking to a guy and I was talking
about the idea of keeping secrets from yourself, and he
was like, you can't keep secrets from yourself, you know,
it's yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
And I'm like, no, no, that's what denial is.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
And I talked to him about this kind of for me,
it's very spiritual and cosmic of like it imagining your
internal self and like what does she look like? And
what does it look like? And I actually came up
with this visual representation. Yeah, I was like, that's me, Like, go,
I go inside and I talk to kind of my
inner self as almost in third person, as an exercise

(01:03:36):
of self reflection. And I just never talk to guys
who do shit like that, and women are always like,
oh yeah, that makes total sense.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
I entirely agree with you, and had a similar conversation
this past weekend, like I feel so bad for men
sometimes because I'm just like, oh my god, you all
have access to all these same healing modalities, but your
patriarchy affects men too, and you think that you're not
allowed to you. And I was talking to one I'm
very into astrology, and you know, of course, like these

(01:04:06):
guys were giving me shit about it at a party
and I just looked at them and was like, y'all
want to look for meaning and capitalism, but not the stars.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
Like fantasy football.

Speaker 4 (01:04:15):
I get to have fucking astrology exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
I told someone I was doing this podcast and I said,
misinterest memes his podcast and staggirls against the Patriarchy, and
he was like, so, it's a podcast about hating men,
and I was like, you know, that's.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
So funny that like that's your first though.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
It's like, I think it's that Margaret Atwood quote that's
like men are afraid women will make fun of them,
women are afraid men will kill them.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
I'm like men's rights activists exists because of this like
revulsion to women, just like speaking truth and like, yeah,
it's the shit the patriarchy leaves behind when it wipes
its asshole, like and that we just can't have the
word miss injury, right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
It's also this on the one hand, it is very androcentric,
and this is why I have them out posting a lot,
because I'm just kind of tired of talking about men
and of every meme having the word men in it,
and I like when it's more fem focused and more
about my experience rather than just about them and what
they're doing to me. I would rather talk about how

(01:05:27):
I'm affected, and that really.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
Is the root of it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Like the first episode on this podcast was about the
wage gap, and then we talked about mental health and
just healthcare in general and how that's harder for women
and how there's these deficiencies, and like, none of this
is really about men are doing this. It's about here
is my experience in the world, and I want that
to be heard, and I want it to be addressed
and I want it to be fixed.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
So it's a little more. It's more about me and
then about you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
It's more about us, like it always the podcast always
ends with Restrong Together, not fuck men, Like that's not
what it's about.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
Yeah, entirely.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
I was in my fuck show of dating recently was
seeing this one guy who like very quickly was like, so,
I know you're a feminist, but I really I'm not
into man haters.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
Then I had to be like, you know, those two
aren't the same thing, right, No.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
I always put it. I put it on my dating profile.
I tell people on a first date it's a litmus test.
It's like, if you can't understand this, And I told
a guy friend like, oh yeah, I always bring up
missanders Memes right away and they're like, really, like, no
guy would ever want to go out with you because
of that. I'm like, oh well, trust me number one.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
They do.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Also, if they don't understand, I don't want to go
out with them again, Like they need to get it.
Otherwise there's I don't think they're smart enough to conceptualize me,
So fuck.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
Them one percent.

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
We are out of time unfortunately. But Chloe, this has
been so lovely chatting with you.

Speaker 4 (01:06:51):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
I have some Patreon people to shout out Kathleen and Casey,
you sign up forever ago I never shouted you out.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
I love you.

Speaker 4 (01:06:58):
I'm sorry to Patreon people.

Speaker 1 (01:06:59):
I've been a hot mess express but I really value
you and I hope you enjoy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
The ad free episodes.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
Okay, so now I'm gonna close with I am missandrist
Memes on Instagram.

Speaker 4 (01:07:11):
Would you like to share your sure?

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
My handle is Chloe Marie Stillwell and you can also
check out my substack that's called Stolen Poetry.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
I love it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:21):
And then if you want to say it with me.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
The next part is and we are, and then we
could say sad Gap dot podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
It's kind of hard to do, but let's see. I'll
line it up and post and we are sad Gap podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
Yes, and then I scooched it over and it's a
mess and who cares. Please follow the Patreon if you
want to throw five dollars my way for ad free episodes.
It's very helpful in keeping the lights on. I'm on Instagram.
We have a fucking Reddit and a discord and I
don't know there's merch, there's a website.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
It's all.

Speaker 4 (01:07:56):
It's all on the link tree.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Obviously.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
I recommend if you could write me a little review
on Apple. That would be amazing, Chloe. Also, it will
help the reach for this. You can say nice things.
So thank you so much, Chloe. This has been so
much fun. I would love to have you back and
I hope you had a good time too.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Thank you for having me. This has been amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
And we are stronger together. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Bye bye bye