96: On Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Featuring Joe of the “Boys Watching Buffy” podcast to answer all our deep dive questions! First we break down the overall plot and characters, then explore the ~feminist themes~ found in Sunnyvale. The damsel in distress trope is subverted. The Bechdel Test, consistently slayed. The patriarchy sits on a council wearing tweed. Buffy and Willow find their agency, Warren gets his orbs crushed, and wtf is wrong with Joss Whedon! If you’ve never seen Buffy, now you can hold your own in a conversation as if you had (basically). And if you love Buffy already, learn even more from someone who has done their damn homework!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi, Hello, and welcome to Sad Girls Against the Patriarchy.
I'm Alison and I am Joe, and we are your
sad friends for the first time ever.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
I have a guest who is also a podcast host.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
Well, yeah, baby, I've been my mad who goes the
sad boys against the matriarchist.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'm gonna start using like radio voice or something, just
getting really exaggerated, like I promise alone what I'm doing.
Joe has a legitimate podcast. It's part of a network,
which I didn't know.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
I'm a little jealous of that, but great, good for you.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, yeah, it's very nice. The podcast called Boys Watching Buffy.
We me and my buddy Vance. We had never seen
the TV show Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Oh, and we are.
We went through it all. We actually finished all of
Buffy and we're onto Veronica Mars. Now. The whole premise
of our podcast is that we watch like female centric

(01:19):
or like female centered shows and give like the dude
perspective on it and like try to like try to
figure some stuff out and see where we land on it. Okay, yeah,
that's kind of the gist of it.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
That's great.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
I mean that makes sense, and I always feel like
I have to justify with male guess why they are here.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
There's a spectrum of miss Andre my listeners.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Some of them are just like, yeah, you know, I've
just had some bad experiences with men.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
Some are like, we should kill all men. That's terrorism.
So it's in the happy middle ground.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
But focusing on female centric TV shows, that's that's a
great that's a great idea. I didn't know it was
boys watching Buffy Buffy.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Boys, I guess.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
Well, the original show that we it was Girls Hbos Girls,
So it was originally called boys watching Girls.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
I bet yeah, different connotation, Yeah it was.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
It was mainly like for that name, to be honest,
we were trying to find something like female centric that
had like a cultural impact, so we did all of
Girls and then we moved on to Buffy, and Buffy
is the one where we like really kind of took off.
And now we're on Veronica Mars, which is going well,
and uh yeah, here we are on the Sad Girls.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, hard to be here.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
By the way, thank you, thank you for having.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
See this is such a podcast hosting thing to say,
I love it. No one else me to be here.
We're just like, so we're depressed and mentally someone stuck
a microphone.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
That's a given. That's a given.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
I kind of like that the world is caught up
to like my mental state now. When I go out
in the world and I'm like, I don't know, everything's shit,
everyone agrees with me. They used to not the world
has has joined me. Unfortunately, that is.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
Very unfant I'm fighting my hardest to not be that,
but day it's deteriorating more and more.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
One of my favorite memes from this guy, Mike Fellows,
is a comedian who's very funny check them out meming
into the Void. He had meme in twenty twenty that
said some people weren't used to every year being the
worst year of their life, and.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
It shows not so true. I already had all of
this depression.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
I don't understand the optimism of people on December thirty first,
like next year is going to be my year.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
It's like, oh, it's not, yeah, because we just had
this arbitrary marker of time that some guy in the
past came up with.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
Though I will say I am a big proponent of
New Year's.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Resolutions, okay, and people the opposite of what you just.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
But I mean, I'm just still trying to make it
better or trying to like do different things during the
new year. But I love me some New Year's resolutions.
I'm very adamant about those.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Okay, good, what were yours this most recent year, we
got a.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
Lot of them. Okay, So Number one, floss every day.
I've been up in the flossing game.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
It's a good one.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Flossing every day. Okay, stretch five times a week, which
has been taking a little bit of a hit because
I have been injured. Go on a vacation. I haven't
gone on a vacation since twenty nineteen. It's about time.
And then one of them is to submit to a
burlesque festival. I'm also everybody, I'm a burless performer as well.

(04:21):
I mainly do like aerial burlesquehere. I'm like an aerial
circ disilay type performer on burless shows. I always say
that I'm like not a good enough aerialist to be
on like actual aerial shows. I'm only good enough to
be on shows where I'm taking my clothes office.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Hey, use what you got, I always say, whatever it is,
use it, yes, no, No, Joe's a wonderful aerialist and
dancer and also a photographer and does a lot of
photos of dancers in the scene, which I think is
really supportive of the scene and letting them use those.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Photos for promotion. It really helps. It's helping people's career along.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yeah, it's super funny. I love doing it.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
Will you get to look at a lot of pretty girls?
Could be boys watching girls?

Speaker 3 (05:02):
Boys watching girls?

Speaker 2 (05:03):
I say, is it called boys watching Veronica Mars now?

Speaker 3 (05:06):
Now? It's that's the That's the worst part about it
is it's still called boys watching Buffy. Okay, but we're
just we've labeled it Veronica Mars in the episodes.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Now it's kind of Grandfather Dan.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
At this point, we didn't want to lose like all
of our subscribers and like make a whole other feed
and everything. It would have been oh yeah, nightmare.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
I have not seen Girls Buffy or Veronica Cars so
so much for Vienna.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
Neither of we so okay, not before the podcasts.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Anyway, it's good you're exploring along with them. I'm hoping
a lot of people listening today watch Buffy. I know
a lot of people have.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
It's a cult classic. But if you.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
Haven't, then you're in my boat and you're gonna learn
along with me.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
I've seen a few episodes here and there. I understand it's.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
About Buffy and she she slays vampires and uh, any
other if we were gonna summarize it in a pair
of anything else we should.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
Add to that.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Basically, it's like a coming of age type of thing,
like she's growing up in the world, and a lot
of the vampires are representative of like teenage inadequacies or
like self consciousness, things that people go through as they're
growing up and breaking free from the shackles of people
that are keeping you down and all that kind of shit.

(06:23):
There's a lot of and like that's why I'm super
happy to like talk with you about this, because there
is a lot of like down with the patriarchy stuff
in there that I think is super powerful. And that's
why I suggested some episodes to you to like give
you a little bit of a little bit of a.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
Like a dation starting point.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, the ones that I felt like you would resonate
that would resonate with you pretty well. And then as
we before we started recording, I gave her the wrong episode.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
And I only watched two of the three things, so
I aercent only watched one that was fascinating, but I'm
managed to twist the incorrect one I saw into a
feminist lens.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, she was like, yeah, before we started recording, Alice,
It's like, yeah, you told me to watch this episode.
I'm like, I don't know why I would have told
you to watch that one.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
I made it work. I made it work.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
But before then, I guess maybe we should lay out
some key players or I also wanted to get into
I know, Joss Whedon used to be known as this
great like pro woman, always writing these great female characters,
and now I feel like it's come out that he's
a bit of a scoundrel.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
Yeah, he's been found out to be a little bit
of a piece of shit, specifically to women on sets.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Right, that was like his whole thing though, was like
not being that.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah, I mean it's a weird thing because his shows,
a lot of them are female centric, like they're starring women,
like they're the focal point, center piece up to shows.
But then he's just like kind of a piece of
shit on set and like being purposely like doing dickish things,
like there hasn't been any kind of like abuse, like

(08:06):
sexual abuse claims against him. I don't think far. Yeah,
but like just abusive behavior in like terms of yelling
at people and making them feel very uncomfortable, which is unfortunate.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
Was he was he cheating on a girlfriend or two?
Maybe did that come out? I might just be spreading
rumors now.

Speaker 3 (08:26):
You might be right. I honestly haven't really looked into it.
I only really know about it through the osmosis of
being in the Buffy universe and podcasting about it. Yeah,
I'll cut that.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
If he didn't cheat on his girlfriend, I didn't hear anything.
If he did, it's still there. And also, I don't
know even if it didn't come out, you probably did.
I don't trust anyone anymore.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yeah. I don't trust anybody in Hollywood. They're all cheating scoundrelsals.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Okay, Well, maybe he was doing the like Lady Death
protest too much kind of a thing where he's overcompensating
with his stories.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
The one thing that I do know that was like
a on set thing that he did was that was
very controversial. Was in the Buffy spin off called Angel,
one of the actresses got pregnant and he like wrote
her off of the show. You're done, like get the
fuck out of here, and like did a bunch of
like character assassination to that character who was like a

(09:22):
beloved character, and then like on the way out the
door just was like, now you're gonna be like doing
all kinds of weird shit and people it was a
weird situation from what I know of it.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
So it's just like almost punishment for getting pregnant exactly
because it's funny because the actress who played Willow in
How I Met Your Mother, she got pregnant and they
just had her carry like large bags they usually knew,
just compensate for it where the character gets pregnant.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
Yeah, I mean that's what they usually do, and they
they did write her pregnancy into the show, okay, but
the way, like the way that she got pregnant, she
like had sex with like a teenager and it was
just like icky and weird and like it was just
not cool. And that was a turning point in that

(10:10):
show where a lot of people were like I'm not
watching this anymore.

Speaker 4 (10:13):
Gotcha.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Well let's go through then, maybe, well what do we
do first?

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Do we do overall feminist themes or characters, key characters
that people might hear today.

Speaker 3 (10:39):
Let's talk about the characters first.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
As I said it, I'm like it will become cleard.
This is why I don't really write outlines. I know
as we say it, the outline will write itself. So
we got Buffy.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yes, Buffy is the chosen One, the vampire Slayer. That
is a title that's like passed down through generations or whatever,
and there's only one except for when there's two and
many many.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
More typical fantasy exactly.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
It's one of those situations where it's with great power
comes great responsibility, like in Spider Man, and she's trying
to protect her loved ones. And she also has someone
that is watching over her, who is a character named Giles.
He is known as a watcher who is like kind
of a father figure. Eventually through it, like he comes

(11:25):
onto the show as like more of a mentor that's
like a coach, but through a lot of the experiences
that Buffy goes through, like becomes more of like a
father figure and protector and kind of sounding board for her.
There's obviously Willow. Willow is she is a meek, kind
of shy girl that becomes a very intensely powerful witch

(11:47):
as the series progresses, and she also is a lesbian
love a queer icon yeah yeah, well yeah, yeah, she
discovers her sexual preference as the show goes on.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
There's compression of have interjected queer.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
I thought she became one, like you don't see a
lot of that on TV at this time.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, she was like she was in the dudes at
the beginning of the series, and then slowly realizes that
she is into ladies like a human wood. Yeah. And
then there's Xander, who's just kind of like a goofball
that people will seem to hate. I'm a look, oh
I'm a notorious Xander defender.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
Got a Xander guy over here.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
People fucking hate Xander. I think that he's not as
bad as a lot of people make him out to be.
A lot of the characters in the show do some
really fucked up things, and for some reason, Xander gets
a lot of hate for the fucked up stuff that
he does, but.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
A lot of characters do it. It sounds like, yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
Mean, you also haven't seen the show, so you're probably
a hater of Xander.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Like taint the impression I have, like Xander's my favorite,
fucking He's definitely not my favorite character.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
I will I remember he was a little annoying.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
I think when I watched him, it was like he's
like comic relief, kind of a goofy guy.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yeah, he's a goofball. He does do some fucked up stuff.
I'm not going to excuse some of the fucked up
stuff that he does, but every character does some Like
Willow eventually at some point tries to literally end the world.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
So maybe she was on our pier. They know, I'm kidding.
Man also go through hormonal cycles. In case you didn't
know something about their testosterone. It fluctuates. Just putting that
out there. Okay, so we got Xander Angel I think
is another big one.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
Angel is a love interest of Buffy. He is a vampire,
and it's obviously like this conflict of interest because Buffy
is a vampire slayer. He is a vampire the Forbidden
Love classic poetic. But yes, Angel is Buffy's first love interest,
first real love interest, and he's a vampire, and like
a really fucked up thing happens where like when Buffy

(13:51):
and him consummate fair love, he actually turns evil because
this is part of his curse as a vampire, he's
he he has a soul, So he's a unique vampire
that has a soul. And if he has the way
that they word it is, if he experiences moments of
true happiness, he loses his soul and becomes evil again.

(14:14):
Now it's up for debate what his moments of true
happiness are. A lot of times they hint that is
purely sexual, but then like if he.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
Has an orgasm or something, then he's gonna okay.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
But like throughout the series of Angel, Angel is the
one where he has a lady drugs him and he
loses his soul. She gives him ecstasy or something and
it's like, oh, I'm feeling pure happiness. He also and
then there's also like he has like a wet dream
and he loses his soul.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
Are they vilifying sexuality here?

Speaker 3 (14:49):
There's a lot of like repression and stuff like that.
But like then he also has a son and that
does not make him lose his soul.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
So your child is not your pure happiness.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Yea, No, it's it's I don't know's it's a weird
thing because then they're talking about having a soul as well.
But then it's also if he gets drugged, yeah, then
he can lose his soul. It's a weird thing. So
Angel's in there. I don't know if there was Spike
was in any episodes that you watch.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
I know of him because I have the short blond hair,
which Joe also has. I had a first Just for
the record, yes, Satson.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
Did have a rock and her doppel ganger foreshadow little
hints towards the future discussion, which was one of the episodes.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
I did not watched it anyway, It's the only one
I really focused on. Well, we got there, we're both
rocking the blonde and someone said I They said, like,
compare me to Spike in some way. They were like, yeah,
Spike school, you got the Spike look going on. I

(15:52):
don't know if I have to quite have the personality,
but they compared me to Spike and then said this
is a compliment, by the way, Yeah, And I saw that,
like he's the bad boys.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
I like that people love Spike. I'm not so heavy
on Spike. I'm gonna be honest. I play Spike in
my Buffy burlesque show, which everybody should go to check out.
Buffy Versut Burleskie's at alluci.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Magic Lounge plug for La Friends.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yes, but Spike is not a great guy, and people
like ship him in Buffy so hard and they'll like
trash like this is my this is a soapbox again here,
like people trash Xander for things that he does. But
Spike literally tries to like sexually assault Buffy at a
certain point. Oh, and people are like, yeah, but I

(16:37):
think Buffy should be with Spike.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Like there's a weird thing where women hone in on
these toxic male characters. We had actually on this podcast
Days of Our Lives actor Paul Telfer, who play Hey,
I'm pretty sure his character's name is Xander. You followed
me on Instagram and he has a wife, and he

(17:00):
is straight, and he's just not my typical miss Anderspy's followers.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
So I just DMed him to be like why are
you here? Like what are you doing on my page?

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Also, you seem really cool and he is incredibly smart
and his episode is wonderful and he plays a sociopath.
And he told me he's like, I don't I don't
like that so many women adore my character. It really
troubles me. And he is gorgeous and it's shirtless half
the time, but that's not it, Like I think, I

(17:27):
don't know. I kind of think there's something about like
when it's out in the open, you know what you're
getting or something you're like, ooh, I don't have to
discover that he's evil.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
I already know.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
There's also just like a thing about vampires.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Oh yeah, vampires are hot as hell.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
Vampires are sexy as fuck, but they're also all creeps. Yeah,
angel Is Buffy's like love interest, but he's like two
hundred and forty something years old.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
And why are we doing this seventeen to forty and
no one freaks out about the age gap?

Speaker 3 (17:56):
Yeah, like people will, people will comment on the age gap,
and then people like, oh, look at you commenting on
the age gap. Of course you'd do that. It's just
like it is there.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Maybe because though they're immortal look young. Then you get
this idea that they're kind of trapped in this phase,
like they're not cognitively.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
Developing syndrome type yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, so they're not mentally progressing, so they're at least
kind of in the same place as the younger girl
could be.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
I think, yeah, I mean it could be, but like
two hundred and forty years of knowledge that you go through.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Like you do, you did get that. You're right, You're right.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
I mean people love to talk about power dynamics, but
like this guy's got two centuries on it.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, I mean I'm seeing obviously, like this came before Twilight,
so I shouldn't compare this to Twilight. You should compare
Twilight to this. But even the like Edward Jacob discourse,
it seems like there's going to be some Spike Angel
discourse going on here.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
Oh, there's absolutely that they're the original Edward Jacob.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, okay, and if you had to choose, you'd be
team Angel, sounds like, but you don't have.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
To be team nobody, honestly, Like Buffy, there's a person
that Buffy dates in the show whose name is Riley,
who is just like kind of a regular guy.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
Okay, he didn't make it to my list.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
He's in it for like two maybe three seasons and
then he kind of exits the show, but he's just
like a regular. When I say regular, there's some fantastical
shit going on with him as well, but like he's,
for all intents and purposes, a regular guy. But he's
just kind of boring, and people are like, fuck.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Riley, he's already Yeah, people were going to talk about
him anywhere.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
I mean, we make fun of him on our podcast.
We call him a piece of bread, Like he's just
like milk, Like he is nothing. Yeah, And like the
second that they started to give him some kind of edge,
people were like, Oh, I'm all the way off of
this guy, Riley.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
So what about Don? What's going with Don?

Speaker 3 (19:54):
So Don? I don't really like Don. Okay, I'll be
honest with you. On is Buffy's sister who appears in
season five. She I wasn't in it the entirety of
the first four seasons. She appears in season five. She
is made from Buffy's blood, which and she is a

(20:15):
key to a hell dimension. And after that Big Bad
gets defeated, she just becomes like a regular human. But
this character didn't exist before, and Buffy finally like eventually
realizes this. At a certain point, it's just like, oh
my god, this is so fucked Like our mind's have
been fucked with. Which is the way that Dawn comes

(20:38):
to be is this faction of monks just create life
out of nowhere and they make down this key to
a hell dimension and then like the big bad of
that season is a woman named Glory, and she is
like trying to use the key to get back to
her Hell dimension and the monks don't want her to
have that. I don't know why. It seems like she

(21:00):
wants to go home. Yeah, maybe unleash some of her
held dimension on Earth or something. I don't quite remember
that exactly, but I remember hating Don all throughout the series. Like,
she gets a little bit better as the series progresses,
but like season five, she's so fucking.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Annoying and kind of whiny.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
Yeah, she's like an annoying little brandy sister that's kind
of like thwarting Buffy's plans at some points, and she's
just annoying, Okay, and then less we talk about her.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, moving on.

Speaker 1 (21:29):
I'm not going to say anything else about Don any
other key characters we should highlight.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
That's about it. I mean, Giles is representative of a
larger conglomeration called the Watcher's Council, which I think is
a very interesting thing that I would love to talk
with you about, because there are some representations of patriarchy
and masculinity and toxic masculinity in Buffy, which is why

(21:53):
I'm so devastated that I mistyped the Booch episode to.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
He wrote the right title.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
He wrote helpless the title, and then episode three or
season three, episode sixteen is Dopple Dopplegangl, which is a
funny name, not even.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
It's a great I mean, Doppelgangland is a great episode
of Buffy. I don't think that it really pertains too
much too sad girls against the patriarchy.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
Let's knock that out though, because I was watching and
I was like, Okay, I can turn anything into the
feminists at this point after two years of yapping about feminism,
patriarchy and these things that are just tired buzzwords to
some and I'm always trying to confuse them with meaning.
What we see is that Willow, who was this very shy,

(22:36):
quiet girl, is now has this vampire counterpart who is
She's flirty, she's mean, she's hot, she's kind of bisexual
coded And I thought the angle here was that she
seems a little kind of afraid of this gal but
also intrigued by her maybe, And it's a little bit
of a foreshadowing for Willow coming out later yes, and

(23:01):
also just the way people respond to Willow differently, and
I see fiery women.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
Not they're not always appreciated by men.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
Men often appreciate when someone is a little bit smaller.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
So I thought we.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Were looking at this kind of duality and as women
can come into themselves, at least my experience was as
I became much more confident with myself. I don't think
everyone liked that, and I don't think men always liked
the way I actually for them at all.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
It is that, I mean, it can be sometimes abrasive,
like when you're like owning yourself like that. And I
love your spin on this episode, I feel like I
need to provide a little bit of context to what
it is, because this is actually kind of a sequel
to another episode. Okay, so the origin of this vampire
Willow is from a episode called the Wish where one

(23:55):
of the characters her name is Cordelia. I think at
this point she's not really in the show anymore because
she left Beyond Angel. Oh wait, no, this is season three,
so she would have still been in this. So Cordelia
makes a wish that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale,
and then it flicks her into this alternate universe where
Buffy had never been there and now the city is

(24:15):
run by vampires. Willow became a vampire, Xander became a vampire.
There's just like hell is breaking loose. Buffy eventually shows
up and is like a grizzled, like jaded vampire slayer.
It is not fun or nice or anything like that.
So that's the origin of this vampire Willow character. So
in Doppelgangland, the vengeance demon Anya, she brings back this

(24:40):
vampire Willow character just to like fuck around in Sunnydale.
And it is an interesting duality because you do get
to see Willow as herself and then like this more
intense version of her, which is a vampire. And there
are still some of the same desires in vampire Willow,
but they're just like kicked up but notch because, like

(25:01):
I said, like Willow is a very like meek, shy,
kind of like nerdy person that's like always nervous, and
especially in the earlier season, and you can tell it
by the way she dresses in this episode, like right,
it's crazy. Like I used to do a segment on
the Hour podcast called Joe's Fashion Report, and like Willow
was always just like what are you doing? But like

(25:24):
you can tell she's wearing a bunch of like knit
sweaters and stuff. It's very pink and like really girly,
and she just like, oh, I'm very homey and stuff.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah, because Willow isn't provocative.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
Yes, she's like the fem fetale version of Yeah, she's
in leather. She's like kind of badass. She's like tossing
dudes around and shit like that. But it is interesting
because like there is a moment where vampire Willow like
licks regular Willow, and regular Willow is like I think
vampire will is like kind of gay, and people are like, oh,

(25:55):
that's just like she's a vampire, she's evil, And then
Angel lets people in like honestly, like it's when you
become a vampire that like you kind of unleash your
most inner desires, which is like a foreshadowing moment, right,
I mean, if you're watching it for the first time
and you don't know anything about the show, it's like, oh,
that's just like a fun joke or whatever. But then
as the show progresses and Willow falls in love with

(26:16):
this other witch named Tara, Tara, you get to be
like Oh what about Doppelganglan. Oh maybe Angel was right,
Maybe that wasn't just like a dismissal or whatever. I
love your spin on this. We watched the wrong episode,
It's okay.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, I felt like it was the bad girl getting
attention while the good girl is kind of seen as boring,
and even Willow maybe starting to kind of be interested
in having this power.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
Yeah, I mean there is a lot of that, and
that's what kind of leads Willow to become a bit
evil and like she there's like an allegory two of
like her using her witchcraft in magic and it becomes
like an alcoholism thing. And she talked about how she
was like I'm always like in Buffy's shadow, but not
anymore because like I'm more powerful than Buffy and I

(27:05):
can fucking end the world or whatever. So there is
a lot of that in the show, especially with Willow,
about feeling self conscious about having powers and she wants
to help Buffy, but she also doesn't want to be
overshadowed by a Buffy. It's it's a complicated thing, like
when you have friends that are like way more talented
than you in something that you're also like passionate.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
About Oh yeah, I don't like looking at those people's Instagram.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
I like to support them from afar. No, I don't
kill myself.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
But the episode that we're going to talk about next,
that I didn't watch, but I pulled up some notes
on it are is Helpless. Yes, so Buffy is turning eighteen. Ooh,
and she's losing her powers.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
Yes, it's not even that she's losing her powers. So,
as I alluded to earlier when we're going over like
character breakdowns and everything, Giles is her Watcher. He's assigned
to like watch over Buffy make sure that she's like
comple leading her vampire slaying duties and all this stuff
and helping train her and stuff like that. So he's
part of the larger conglomerate, the Watcher's Council, which I

(28:09):
in my estimation is like seen as like the patriarchy,
because their role in the show is like we're here
to protect and like help aid the Vampire Slayer. But
they really just kind of fuck with Buffy's life and
they do kinds of really fucked up shit to these
teenage girls, Like the Vampire Slayer is always like a

(28:30):
teenage girl, and they're supposed to like watch over them.
But then they do stuff like this. In this episode,
which is called Helpless and it's Giles uses a type
of hypnosis on Buffy and then drugs her to drain
her of her powers. And they do this to every
vampire slayer on their eighteenth birthday. And then they send

(28:52):
them on a trial to fight a vampire alone, like
in a cabin, and they have to see they have
to see if they can defeat this vampire without their powers,
and that's the whole thing. But Buffy doesn't know that
this mentor father figure did this tour because she was
like under a hypnosis. Eventually she finds out about it,

(29:13):
and she says, like, dude, I trusted you. You're like
supposed to be my watcher and like I could have
fucking died, Like if this is like how this Watcher's
Council operates, Like I don't want to be any fucking
part of this anymore, Like why do I need to
have a watcher? And like this this episode really starts
to kick off Buffy's journey about like why do I
need this fucking stuffy, old British guy looking over me

(29:35):
like I'm the one with the power.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah, she felt very violated. It sounds like Zager feels
safe under.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
His care exactly, and like not to mention too, like
the vampire that they send Buffy to fight like kidnaps
her mom and that's like a huge violation. Like Buffy's
mom plays like a huge role and she's a very
influential figure in her life and to be violated like
that by her like father figure like the page literal
like patriarch ttriarchyah, and like the the patriarchical structure of

(30:06):
the Watcher's council, Like have you seen Captain Marvel?

Speaker 2 (30:11):
No?

Speaker 3 (30:12):
So there, I'm gonna make a little analogy somewhat.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
I'm sure people listening have.

Speaker 3 (30:16):
I can't believe that you have.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
I haven't seen most so I know like the Marvel universe. Ye,
And is this move the movie about Captain Marvel? Yeah,
put like venom or I don't know, I don't know things.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
So Captain Marvel has like this thing where they implant
a device in her neck that like it kind of
restricts her power because she's like so powerful that there
are Yeah, the men in this universe are like kind
of worried about how powerful she could be because she's
like this super mega god basically it can destroy anything.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yeah, so we need we need to tamp that down.
I don't want that run a while.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
So eventually, like the conclusion of that movie is kind
of sorry spoiler alert everybody for a fucking like ten
year old probably like she reclaims her power by like
ripping out this device and she can go full power
and like beat up all these dudes that were like
keeping her down. That's kind of like the journey that
Buffy goes on throughout several seasons. And this was like
the kickstarter of like, see why is the Watcher's Council

(31:17):
fucking with me like this? Like I could have died.
You're supposed to be like protect me, and I trusted
you and now this and they're like that's just the
way that we do things, and she's like, maybe that's
not the way you should do things, Like what the fuck?

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Josh when it sounds like does try to insert these themes,
even though he doesn't live it with his life, he
is making a point of this, And I see I
know also that her real dad flaked on her birthday too,
Yeah in this episode, so they're really it's not a
secret here that it's this council of men. It doesn't
sound like the council is a mix of men and women.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
Actually it is. Never mind, it is, but there's way
less women, Like there is a female watcher that like
kind of is you see like various people, but sure,
in my estimation, okay, it's a patriarchy type of thing.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
Council dominated by men.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
I'm guessing that the top, the top person, the most
important person.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
Yeah, this is stuffy British guy, stuffy British.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
People, white guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This has come up
a lot in episodes of.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
I think a lot of feminists feel that men are
actually afraid of how much women could do and that's
why they are suppressed in many ways and treated as weaker.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
And it's because we.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
Should be able to hold at least equal power and
are capable of that. And when that's recognized, then it's
like oh no, no, no, get back, get back in your place.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
Yeah no, I mean I didn'ver understand like that type
of deal, Like wouldn't you want the best of like
all the worlds? Like I just don't understand why would
you suppress like somebody like that, Like, especially if they're
like your ass and I think that one of the
episodes that I recommended you watch, like is like this
big turning point for Buffy where she is like, is

(33:09):
it the one where she like kind of confronts the
Watcher's Council at the end.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yes, And I just I think I wrote down a
line or took notes about it where she's saying that like, oh,
I'm recognizing that people are telling me how unimportant I
am because they see that I have.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
Power and this bothers them. Yes, this was since season five.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
Yes, so this is like when she's like really worried
about her sister and this super powerful hell god Glory,
she's the one that's like trying to kill her sister
and all this stuff and use her as the key,
and like the Watcher's Counsel is like threatening Buffy all
this time, and like the big ultimate speech that she

(33:49):
gives in the end is like you don't have any power,
Like I don't need you. You need me because without me,
you're not watching shit.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, what's there?

Speaker 3 (34:00):
Yeah, if I'm not like playing by your rules or
like if I'm not like part of this, like you
don't have anything to do, so you need me way
more than I need you, and then she starts calling
the shots about like so you're gonna help me, You're
gonna give me what I want. Yeah, and if you
don't fuck with that, I don't really need you, Like
you're not really helpful anyway. And that was like such

(34:23):
a great moment because throughout the series, like me and Fance,
we would always discuss like why does she need this Watcher,
Like she'd why is this guy? Why is there? Always
like somebody like, oh, you can't do that, and like
I will say, Giles does kind of come around and
like learns from Buffy. He has a whole arc of

(34:44):
like he's he's he starts to like not fuck with
the Watcher's Council either because he's like I think that
they're doing some fucked up stuff and like I trust
Buffy more than I trust them. So he has a
whole arc where he goes along with Buffy and after
he gets like kicked out of the Watcher's CA which
is like his whole life, but he sticks with Buffy
until he doesn't. Giles is an interesting character, but it

(35:08):
was just like a really powerful moment of Buffy's standing
up for herself and being like fuck you, I don't
need you.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
We are going to talk more about that, but first
we're going to take a break.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
So we were talking about the Watcher's Council and representing
patriarchy suppressing Buffy, who it sounds like is since it's
a coming of age story, is like what young girls
go through as they kind of find their own power
and learn what they're capable of and learn to outthink that. Like,
she didn't have to physically take them down. It sounds
like she had to just realize her own capabilities.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
Yeah, because in that episode specifically, I think the Watcher's
councilor just kind of shows up. They're like, hey, you're
planned by our rules now, and she's like, I haven't
been planned by your rules in like two seasons, dude, Like,
what are you fucking talking about?

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Are we looking at season five now?

Speaker 3 (36:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Twelve? Okay, just make up?

Speaker 3 (36:12):
What's this titled?

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Checkpoint?

Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (36:14):
We're on checkpoint? Okay. By the way, Joe has no
notes in front of him here.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
This is all just it's off the door.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, no, I got pages here on my page is up.
But you clearly know what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
I mean, I've talked about Buffy to death.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
I know, I know what you mean.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, with a lot of these feminist themes, regurgitate is
the wrong word. But now when I it's not that
I'm going around debating people in the world, but it's like,
come on, you're not gonna You're gonna have something here
to contribute that I haven't already talked about for one
hundred hours.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
So just try to keep up here.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah, okay, So in episode twelve and season five, we
have the Watcher's Council. They're showing up uninvited, but Buffy
is playing along. She's trying to figure out who Glory is,
right or understand Glory.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
Yeah. The Watchers Council, they like are holders of books.
They're like, like Giles's job in the first couple of
seasons is he's a librarian and he has all of this,
like these books about like all these demons, and the
Watcher's Council generally has all of that information. They provide
it to Buffy and in this episode they're trying to
withhold that information from Buffy. It seems like about Glory

(37:24):
because Buffy doesn't really know exactly what she's up against.
She just is kind of getting her ass kicked left
and right by this hell god, which is what is
revealed what she is at the end of the episode.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Hey when that happens.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, So the Watcher's Council is like withholding that
information from Buffy and they're like, you're gonna play by
our rules, and Buffy's like, hey, how about you suck
my dick, bro, and you just tell me what this
information is. So this is and then it's revealed that
she's fighting a god and she's like.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Fuck, yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
Well, what was your take from this episode? I feel
like I'm talking a lot. What what was your take
on it?

Speaker 1 (38:02):
We were looking at patriarchy as bureaucracy here, so's it's
kind of like a we gave you power, but now
we want to take it back.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
We can take it back at any time. Oh.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
If we're looking at patriarchy as bureaucracy, then we can
also look at this as institutional power and legal element here.
There are so many institutions that hold women down.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
There really are.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
I mean, even if you look at like not providing
adequate maternity leave or paternity leave, then you end up
burdening women, not allowing abortions. Then you end up with
women not being able to have this bodily autonomy. What
else we are looking at in some states eliminating no
fault divorce, which is where you can get divorced for
any reason. You don't have to prove that there was
some kind of abuse, and this makes it harder for

(38:47):
women to get away from a husband. And even just
women weren't allowed to open a bank account or open
a credit card without a man co signing until the seventies. Yeah, yeah,
there was a lot that happened in the seventies that
was good. But these are all examples of higher institutions
that are oppressive. They've been oppressive to women and people

(39:08):
of color historically.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
If only we're that easy in our legal system. I
figured out that I have the power, you work for me.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
But going on strike here, I mean, I think there
have been this. I don't have a citation for it,
but examples of women resisting as a group, as a
body of people and saying I will not show up
and do this until you meet my demands. And it
seems like we're creating a metaphor here for examples of
feminist resistance.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
Yeah, absolutely cool.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Great finding systems.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Okay, okay, system, Yeah, you definitely hit the nail on
the head. They do talk about how the Watcher's Council
is very bureaucratic and like they have their fingers and
like a lot of things and they can like ruin
your life through bureaucracy, like I don't know, like take
away your passport or something. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
That would suck.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
Literally, I'm pretty certain that Giles talks about that. Like
they cut their fingers in everywhere there. They they're like
the Illuminati type shit. But like vampires are still secret,
but I have That's another thing, Like I don't understand
how vampires are secret in this whole foot because they're
just everywhere.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
They manage that.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah, and the Watchers don't have vampire powers.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
No, they don't have any kind of superpowers. They're just old,
stuffy British people.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
But I bet they had this pass to them.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
I don't know if they're democratically elected, and that kind
of speaks to just power being passed down to someone
who doesn't necessarily deserve it.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Yeah, I don't know if they are democratically elected. I
think it is more of like a generational thing because
I think the Giles talks about how his his dad
was a watcher and.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Gonna elect them.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
Yeah, the vampires is an odd thing. Like there's some
stuff about like how a slayer becomes a slayer and
who gets assigned as their watcher that like is a
little unclear. I feel like in the show mm hmmm.
But then the people that love Buffy are like, oh,
they explained in the comics, motherfucker, are not reading a.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
Comicy now it's different. Are the comics canon?

Speaker 3 (41:13):
Some of them are? Some of them people don't consider
cannon And I'm just like, I'm not pising through that.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Ridiculous. Is the lure pretty consistent though throughout Buffy? Because
I know, like I watched Doctor Who and some of
the seasons where they try to make something canon, it's
just like it doesn't track.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
It doesn't make sense no matter how much we reach.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
It's interesting because some of the vampire specific lore is changed.
I feel like it from I mean, Buffy the Vampire
Slayer was originally a movie and then they adapted it
for a TV show, and the movie vampires have different
rules than the TV show Vampires. Yeah, and it's just interesting,

(41:53):
Like I haven't watched like every single vampire thing. But
like the lore through out all vampire media, I feel
like it's pretty inconsistent. I mean, they always basically suck
blood and they don't come to the daylight. Sure, but
other than that, good, Yeah, Other than that, there is
a lot of wiggle room. It seems like, for instance,

(42:14):
in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie, vampires can't enter
any building without an invitation, but in the TV show
Buffy the Vampire Slayer they can enter any like public building,
just not like a private residence, which then leads to
lots and like questions like there's somewhere like a vampire

(42:34):
like goes into a hotel room, It's like, is that
a private room?

Speaker 2 (42:37):
Yeah? What if I'm staying at my dance studio.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
What if you're in your car? If you live in
your car. There's one point in season seven where a
guy just kind of flees his home and a vampire
can company's like, hey, just like kind of fleda you
gave up the rights to it. It's like, did he
sign a contract? Like this is still is? Yeah, like
you not come in if they're home or if they're

(43:02):
not home, Like, yeah, it gets really complicated. The vampire lore,
I feel like is rather inconsistent, but usually throughout the
show it's pretty consistent about like what's canonical, what isn't.
There are some like nitpicky things that I could like
go on about, Like, we had a very difficult time

(43:23):
with the uh, the invitation rules of like if they're
invited in, like how can they get into this building?
How can they get into that building? We eventually kind
of figured it out, but then after we were told
by our listeners, we just kept pointing out inconsistence of
like how do you get in there? Yeah, how do
you get in there?

Speaker 1 (43:41):
It's like the writers had an idea early on and
then they had to live by those rules.

Speaker 3 (43:45):
Yeah, and then but then people will just fucking know
ration rationalize anything that's like, oh no, it's consistent because
of X, Y and Z, and like that's such a reach.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah, and doctor who we say Timey whymy, which is
a reference to an episode where he said wibbley.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Wobbly timey, whymy? And you just kind of handwave.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
It just works.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
It just works. We're just spending disbelief.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
But the last episode we were gonna talk about today
was episode fifteen, which was I was made to love you,
And yes, this is where Buffy is confronting the idea
of being too strong. Sounds like it's interrupting her romantic
I have a note too strong to be loved. Is
it's talking about romantic or friends or yeah?

Speaker 3 (44:28):
She Buffy throughout the series has a lot of like
crises with her friends and her partners that aren't vampires.
I think at this point it would be Riley, the
guy that was talking about earlier.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
I don't even want to think.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
No, he probably is the most stable, best partner for her,
I believe you.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
But she has a lot of issues coming to grips
with like I'm alone in this, Like you don't understand
what it's like to be me. Yeah, with her friends,
and like as much as they try to help her,
like they're just the burden isn't on.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Them on her right right the day, they can't really relate.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
So she probably was dealing with this at that episode
because Riley also does have a lot of you know,
he has some insecurity about that as well, where he's
kind of having this relationship with Buffe and he's like,
I just want to help and I want to be
a part of this, but like I'm just a regular dude, and.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
This is the episode where there's the robotic girl designed
to be the perfect girlfriend.

Speaker 3 (45:26):
Yes, so I wanted you to watch this episode. Yeah,
mainly because of the villain whose name is Warren. Right, Okay, Now,
Warren is a very interesting villain because in my estimation,
he is like the perfect character avatar representation of toxic
masculinity in this show. All right, and he becomes like

(45:47):
a recurring villain and like we actually interviewed the actor
that played him on our podcast.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
That's legit.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
He's like an absolutely lovely person, but his character is
like a scumbag piece of shit. In the reason why
he makes this girlfriend is because like he's basically an insul.
He makes this perfect robot girlfriend.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
All the AI girlfriends that I'm seeing, I'm seeing articles
that are like, then make AI girlfriends and then verbally
abuse him.

Speaker 3 (46:13):
Dude, exact classic, and that's what happens here. Like he
was in love with this other lady, I forget what her.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Name is, Warren was, but she didn't want him.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
But she didn't want him, she broke up with him.
So he made this robot girlfriend and he he just
kind of is like you know, it's a robot girlfriend.
He doesn't treat the robot girlfriend very well because like
in the mind, it's like, it's just a fucking robot,
Like why would I treat it well? Which there is
I don't know, like there is some sticky situations with that.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
But it's a representation and the problem is the kind
of person.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Who would treat the robot badly and would also treat
a human badly.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Yeah, because I feel like if I had.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
A robot girlfriend, I mean I even know what the
way I talked to chat GPT, I'm like, hey, there,
could you please.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
Do this thing for me? Thank you?

Speaker 3 (47:00):
Yeah, if he saw some of my chatgypt conversations.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
I have, they're going to be mine are going to
be sub poenat someday. I need to start a Burner account.
It's getting weird. I want to do an episode on Chatgypt,
but I mean, I'll spin it to feminism in patriarchy
some but I don't really have a way too. I
just want to excuse to research it more because I
think it's so fascinating.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
But yeah, something.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Chatgypto anctually is that to me? I was saying, like,
why am I talking to you? With these polite speaking
to you so politely when I know you're not a human,
and it said, it's not because I'm a human, it's
because you are.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
Oh yeah, you know what.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
The fucking robot just cuts to the core of you
and you're like, oh all.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
The time, all the time. It's a sentient mirror. It's
just so fascinating.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
I know it's mirroring me back at me, but it's
really good at it. And I mean, I don't think
chatgypt can be used as a therapist, and I just not. Actually,
I just saw an article that was like this guy
was having a manic episode and believed that he was
ending time, and AI just deepened his delusions and encouraged
him and did exactly the wrong thing. However, therapy is

(48:08):
often used to present things to you that you have
already said, just in a different way. I mean, how
does that make you feel? Is the silliest example. But
it's like, what is this bringing up? You're saying it now,
let's just evaluate exactly what you said from a different lens.
That's exactly what AI does in my experience.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
No, for That's why I like I had one day
where I was like just feeling pretty down on myself.
I'm going to be honest, and I was like chat
GPT just like tell me I'm cool.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Done, yep, yep, and like.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
Like I had it, like you know, it was like
telling me all these like positive things about myself. But
then at the end of the day, I was like,
I literally just made a robot tell me and that
I'm cool.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
I know.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
It's like like that does not that's weird.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
That doesn't help me. So the next day I was like,
tell me why I'm cool using statistics.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Ooh, I like that so.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
You can you can argue with like rob about it
if it looks up numbers about like you're one of
like one percent of people that do X, Y or
Z or it's like, okay, I'm a rare interesting person, right,
and I'm glad that I had that statistic in front
of you.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Right.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah. I don't wanted to kiss my ass and I
want it to counter argue itself too.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
But it's just it's when you're talking to chat GPT,
it'll just like tell you what you want to hear
of most of the time, and it's just like, ah,
how much can I trust? This is just trying to
make me feel.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Better, right, give me some data.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
Yeah, that's why it was like, give me, give me stats,
like I need stats. You can't argue with numbers.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
And then you get into the environmental impact of chat GPT,
and then this has become like is Amazon evil or not?
Or can you acknowledge it's evil and then still justify
using it? How much responsibility falls to the individual as
opposed to.

Speaker 3 (49:46):
What was like did you ever watch The Good Place? Yes,
well there is that one episode of the Good Place
where it was like, even just buying a.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Tom moral, how do we quantify morals as complicated worlds?

Speaker 3 (49:57):
Yeah, and there's just like so many far reaching effects
that like you don't even factor in by buying a tomato.
It's like all that you're abusing, like migrant workers and
that person was terrible and so you supported that business
and it's like, fuck, I didn't even realize that.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
I love these little factoids that I can throw out
makes me really popular parties where I can go into
like how little of what you actually recycle gets recycled? Yeah,
it's about ten percent nationwide. And Amazon doesn't make most
of its revenue from retail. It makes it from Amazon
Web Services, which is a platform that many websites, probably
many that you use. Amazon is facilitating this from the

(50:34):
back end. So all of your feeling good about boycotting Amazon,
you're not boycotting Amazon ever, and in fact, retail doesn't
make it very much money at all.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
Well, that was like the interesting juxtaposition of like tweeting
about abuse from your phone that was made by slaves.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
Yeah, oh yeah, I got everyone worrying about boycotting she in.
But then it's like, literally you can look up Apple
and the way your iPhone was made and like workers
throwing themselves from the tops of buildings, they'll have nets
below because there's so many suicides.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Yeah, and child labor.

Speaker 3 (51:08):
Yeah, dude. I mean that was one thing that my
parents like tried to instill in me. They they were
very adamant when I was a kid about buying things
that were made in America because they were like, it's
not going to be made by like slave kids. But
now like nothing is made in America. It's so difficult
to find and like, yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
But anyway, Buffy yeah, yeah, no fun tangent we robots.
So I mean this is very yes, topical, because yeah,
I'm seeing that Warren made April and is treating her
so horribly. Obviously it's a poor sign of his character,
even though she's a robot. But the show featured him
as pathetic, right, he wasn't glorified at all for this.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
Well in this episode, I remember me and Vance watching
it because this is our introduction to Warren, and we
were like, this guy's a fucking genius. Like he just
made like a robot, like a lifelike robot that like
passes as a human. Yeah, that's valuable. This guy is
like a genius. And then by the end of the episode,
like he dumps his robot girlfriend because he thinks he
has a chance with his original girlfriend again and doesn't,

(52:09):
and he doesn't, and the original girlfriend's like, you made
a robot girlfriend. That's pathetic.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
At this point, twenty years from now, if we're doing
if we were loading open Ai into a robot, I
might go for it.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
See, I don't know if that part is that.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
Pet Well, no, she's she's talking about how he's pathetic.
He's like, shut up, you bitch, which is like the
fucking ultimate thing. And like Buffy hears that, and she
just like beats the fuck out of him. Nice, but
like I don't know, I remember at the time watching
this episode and being like this guy is fucking amazing,
like why don't they like hire him or something?

Speaker 1 (52:41):
And then then yeah, like so valuable, Like this robot
was like yeah, it was like beating Buffy up.

Speaker 3 (52:48):
It like threw Spike across the room, and you know,
vampires are mega powerful in this world. Yeah, and like
that's a useful thing. But eventually, you know, like war
and he's like reveals his in cell tendencies and shit
like that, and it's like, oh, Okay, that's why this
guy he's a fucking problem and he's doing this all

(53:09):
because he got dumped, which, like I don't know. I
think it's an interesting thing about the robot girlfriends because
like he gets to talking to from Buffy and from
his ex girlfriend about like what a pathetic losery is
that he made a robot girlfriend.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
I don't think, Sorry, you should finish that well.

Speaker 3 (53:25):
I was gonna say, I don't know where I land
on that, Like it's a very touchy thing, and I
don't know, like I feel like if there's people out
there that like where would you where do you stand
on this? Like I know that you were just like,
where do you stand on it? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (53:42):
Yeah, well I just don't want to. I get excited
and then I cut people off.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
And I don't think there's anything there's some things that
are pathetic. I don't think overall it is pathetic to
make a robot girlfriend. I do think it's pathetic to
shame it and demean it and abuse it. And also
to make a robot girlfriend that is it looked like
kind of the ideal woman here, so she just exists
to fulfill a man's needs without needs of her own.

(54:06):
That's the part that is kind of pathetic. But I've
been single too long now, I'm like, you know, like
I said, if we had a robot that was just
the perfect partner for me who understood me and everything,
but I would.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Never want a partner that just kissed my ass and
just like tried to.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
Well that's what we're talking about with CHAGII.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Yeah, you know, it's way more topical now now that
we have this tool that. Yeah, I feel like it's
really interesting.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Some people have this kind of like private relationship with it,
and I'll hear people talk about treating like a therapist
or a woman was saying I asked it to talk
to me like a boyfriend would, like, I'm having a
really bad day and I just want support and I
want someone to help just help me emotionally and help
me through what I need. I don't think that is pathetic.
I think it's kind of a sign of the times
and how disconnected people are. And it's like it's not

(54:53):
comparable to having a human relationship.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Yeah, but that.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Looking for support outside of your human network because there
is something that is lacking, and you're doing it because
you want to improve your own life and maybe make
it easier for you to even connect to humans because
you're kind of you know, I wasn't even getting the
sexual part, but sure, I mean, and then you lose

(55:17):
your soul.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
Yeah, exactly. It's part of the Romanian curse that you
just put on you.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
This is heres how gay I am. I'm just going
to like you. I wanted to nurture needs and just emotionally.
But I mean, people have been using.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
Tools to get off forever and ever. I mean that
almost feels kind of separate. I feel like he didn't
need the robot to get off. He wanted it in
this case because he wanted something to st just to
put down, like almost to serve him while personifying it.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
That's the pathetic part.

Speaker 3 (55:48):
Yeah, And there's also a little bit of it because
he made this robot like so hot, like such a
hot lady that it's like he's going to be seen
in public with her and people think he's cool or something.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
I don't think it's pathetic to want something like that
if you're not finding it in your life.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
Of course there's a sexual component to it. I don't know.
That's fine. People are using toys, why can't they use
a robot too?

Speaker 3 (56:09):
Yeah. That was kind of like the That was the
debate that we actually have with the actor where he
was like, would you be okay if your partner had
like a sex robot?

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Okay if it didn't have a complex AI that nurtured
its emotional needs, Yes, it's really fine.

Speaker 3 (56:26):
I Mean my argument was like, well, what's the difference.
It's just like, you know, pretty decorations around a dildo
or whatever, vibrant. Yeah, yeah, Like I wouldn't have a
problem with that, But like you're saying, like, if it's
giving complex emotional needs.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
Like then it's like, well, what am I not doing?
What am I lacking here, So wow. I just I
know with sexuality, like people who like they're gonna watch
porn even if they're happy with you and the partnership
or something like, I don't see that as a sign
of lacking there. If they want sexual expression, like, as
long as it's not with another human being, Like, there's

(57:01):
a lot of there's a lot of reasons for that,
part of them just being practical of like STDs or
pregnancy or your social circle. Like, yeah, don't go fuck
another human. If you want to fuck your robot, that's fine.
If you're treating a robot like this emotional partnership, then
that feels a little cheatery.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
The robot actually probably safer option, Like you brought up
a STDs. Yeah, you're not going to hurt the robots
feel Yeah. No, I'm not leading the robot all now.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
I'm robot. Yeah, I mean, I'm floating this. I have
no one listening. It's like Jesusus, and I'm never listening
to you again. You fucking as I'm talking to AI.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
Online and destroying the rainforest with every stupid diary entry
I put in there, I'm like, damn, what human is
going to understand me as well as AI.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
That just is me. You're just talking to me right now,
and I feel so understood. That's stupid.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
We're like half a step away from being this guy.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
That's where Yes, I mean that part doesn't bother me
like that, that transference from human to machine, it's not ideal.
I mean, I think that human connection is ideal, but
I think part of it isn't our fault also because like,
I don't know, the world's really messed up, man, and
they're all so disconnected.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
And people are like, it's just tough, dude.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
But I would never have a robot partner that I
could emotionally abuse.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
That's not that doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
I know, I know, I'm such a good person now,
I would never do that. But people are and like,
this is happening with online. You can get an AI
girlfriend or boyfriend and people are emotionally abusing them, and
that means they want an outlet. This is the thing
about in cells where it's like, oh, like you, no
one wants you, so you're angry. It's like, no, even

(58:50):
if someone did want you, you wouldn't treat them. Well,
that's why they don't want you.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
Yeah, But Warren.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
He is like a very interesting like I was talking about,
he's like toxic masculinity, and that's in this realm of
the show. Like later on he uh, he actually kills
his original girlfriend after like he hypnotizes her somehow, and
like he hangs out with like these two other nerdy
in cell guys and they're basically like, yeah, we're all
gonna like have sex with her while she's hypnotized. And

(59:20):
then the two other guys are like, that's fucking wrong, dude,
and he's like, what are you talking about? And then
she snaps out of the hypnotism and she literally is
like they dance around saying the word in the show
a lot, but she's like this is rape. Yeah, yeah,
Like what you're doing is fucking rape. And then eventually,
like I think she he grabs her foot while she's
trying to walk upstairs, and like she falls down the

(59:42):
stairs and dies, and then he's like, we got to
cover this up. His two other cronies are kind of
like this feels really icky, but they just kind of
go along with him because he has like the strong
personality of like, you know, you could be like an
Andrew Tait where it's like the charisma of Andrew Tate
or something, or one of those other like red Pillow
type guys where people will just like kind of follow

(01:00:03):
them who are weaker men looking for answers. So that's
who I think, like his two buddies are representative of, right.
But eventually, like he gets into a fight with Buffy
and this is like my favorite scene in the entirety
of the show, is he has this like there's like
this mcguffin type thing, like there are these two balls

(01:00:25):
and they give him like mega powers, and he has
him in a sack okay and handed metaphor yeah, I
mean they really like him fisted.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
With Yeah, okay, two balls on a sack.

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
But eventually, like he and Buffy are like having this
one on one fight and he's like got the upper
hand and he's about to like rain down the fist
on her, and he's like he says, say good night, bitch,
and then Buffy grabs the ballsack of how I describe
as the ballsack of toxic masculinity and crushes them and

(01:00:58):
Warren looks down and he's like, oh, there goes all
my power. And then Buffy just stands up and looks
at him and she goes good night, bitch, and just
like kicks him like across, and it's like the fucking
best dude. Like it's the best representation of like down
with that like type of masculinity and toxic, toxic behavior,

(01:01:20):
like yeah, yeah, And I feel like it is a
very unsung part of that show. Like there are a
lot of really iconic moments in Buffy that people point
to that are like this is where Buffy is like
she's in her own I point to that one because
I feel like that's the best representation of it, and
that wasn't in any of the episodes that I suggested
that you watch, but like, man, it's like a fucking

(01:01:42):
awesome moment and I loved it so much.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Yeah, that's my praise. He's a favorite part of the show,
like overall.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
Yeah, nice, Yeah, I mean I love Warren as a villain.
Like when we were talking with the actor, he was
he does some like really despicable things. He like kills
Willow's girl friend, and like people were rioting we.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Got gay love on screen, bring it back.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
Yeah, So he was talking about how he would like
be in a grocery store and people would be like
you killed terror, Oh my god, and like people, yeah exactly,
Like that's how deep it went wring a job. Yeah,
that's how I think it went with people. And he
was like I was afraid to like go out, and
like he's friends with the lady the actress, of course
he was. I think they may have even dated or something,
but they've worked on several projects together. But he was like,

(01:02:30):
I couldn't go out, like people would like fucking hated me,
and like that just goes to show like what a
powerful villain he was, and for all intents and purposes,
he was just a regular guy. He was like he
could build stuff, but he didn't have any demonic powers
And the way that he killed Willow's girlfriend is he
just had a gun and he shot her.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
Wow by it, Yeah, I heard that. It was just
like a stray bullet.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Like, yeah, it was just a tragic kind of it
didn't feel like enough.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
And it happens like after Buffy like kind of embarrasses
him and he just has shows up to her house
with a gun. He's like, you think you can embarrass
me like that, Well, I got a fucking gun and
he goes to like shoot at Buffy he does shoot Buffy. Yeah,
and then there's another stray bullet that kills Tara. Wow,
So it wasn't even like an intended thing. And then
that's what sends Willow off on her like evil, I'm

(01:03:18):
going to destroy the world type situation. So Warren, I
think is my favorite one. He's the most effective Buffy
villain in my estimation. Like he's like he kills one
of her crew like it's and he sends Willow down
this evil path like such a good villain man. And
the way that he's portrayed is like so realistic, it's

(01:03:40):
like spooky. And this is before like the termin cell
was even in the Zeitgeist.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Yeah, he sounds like like the personification of toxic masculinity
and in cell culture. And interesting that that is what
kills the lesbian on screen because there's something I think
that that type of person doesn't like about the idea
that a woman would be so distanced from them they
don't even want to date any man, not just him.

Speaker 3 (01:04:06):
But literally what I could change.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Yeah, I'm a good changer. Have you tried, Dick?

Speaker 4 (01:04:11):
Have you?

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
How do you know?

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
But I think the toxic masculinity is a perversion of masculinity.
Someone was asking me at a bar bartender I was
probably yapping about my podcast, and he's like, do you
think that masculinity is good? And for one thing, it
just means so much more than the first stereotype you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
Might go to.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
But also it should be I mean, even these qualities
of like wanting to take care of someone or wanting
to be a provider, like all of this should have
a great expression and shouldn't be perverted into And because
I am this higher person in the relationship, you have
to be lower, it shouldn't take that kind of a form.

Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
No, it's just different. Like I remember when I was
in college, I was taking a class called the Sociology
of sexuality, and my teacher was like, you know, she
was a very staunch feminist, and she was basically like
talking about like how masculinity is like toxic and like
basically in all forms. And I remember distinctly like raising

(01:05:11):
my hand like, I mean, is it toxic in like
all forms? Are there any positive like a lot of forms,
So there's positives in this, right, And then she like
gave me this death glare and was like, no, go on,
why don't you tell me some of these pots. I
gotta see you in that class.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
So this is probably a very educated woman who is
used to talking about this material. I can tell when
it's like, even if I have a good idea, it's
like I'm not gonna win this argument and come out
looking good.

Speaker 3 (01:05:39):
No I should have. I mean I was a you know,
eighteen eighteen year old.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
Yeah, I did a lot of that too.

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
But no, I mean I do think in cell culture,
looking down on women for not wanting them is it
doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
It doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
And you know what's funny is like this might be
a hot take here, but like I remember in college,
I read a couple of those like pick up artist books. Yeah,
like the Game or whatever. Yeah, and for like eighty
percent of like the advice that they give, it's literally
just like make your life better, yeah, go to the
go workout and like get a good career and stuff.

(01:06:17):
It's like, okay, yeah, I can get on board with this.
And then they're like and then these are the tricks,
learn how to do magic and trick women. It's just like, okay, well,
part I got off on an exit a little bit earlierly.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Totally, No, I think that the way to become more
attractive to other people is to become more attractive to
yourself and work on your own things, and that is
pretty straightforward.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
But then pick up artistry.

Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
It tries to manipulate women and yeah, to trick them
into something from this disingenuous approach.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
Well, I feel like to like the end of the book,
the author, like Neil Strauss, I feel like he was
just like not happy with his life too, Like I
think that was like the end of the book he
was like, Yeah, I mean I'm having a bunch of
like threesomes with these beautiful women, but like empties to it, right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Yeah, let's uh, let's wrap it up with uh some
just overall maybe feminist strengths.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Buffy and Buffy.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
Yeah, I mean, it's just like a super great journey
through the life of a woman that she's like discovering
her power and like where her morals lie and where
she stands on things. And I mean the Buffy in
season one is vastly different than the Buffy and season seven. Yeah,
so it's a it's a definite journey. Like it's it's
very interesting. I never would have watched it without this podcast,

(01:07:48):
to be honest, with you, but like, I'm very glad
that I did, and I'm I'm happy that I didn't.
It was nice to like go on that journey with Buffy.
And also all of our listeners who like they were
just excited about what was to come next. They're like, oh,
we can't wait for you to watch this next episode,
Like we can't. Oh you think that's going to happen? Oh,
I can't wait for you like three seasons down the road.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
So it was a good time, and I have a big,
deep appreciation for Buffy. Obviously at this point, like you said,
no notes, I'm just like rambling off the top of
the dome, which you could probably tell. I may have
talked in circles at some points.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
But I'll edit it to perfection.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
What the fuck then with Josh Whedon, man, Like it
seems so intentional, the themes of in cell culture, feminine agency,
subverting tropes. Then to find out that personally he sounds
like a misogynists. Yeah, man, Yeah, I mean I think
you have to separate the art from the artist, because

(01:08:46):
if you don't, there are no artists left. It's very
rare to find an artist who's like, yeah, I really
stand with that guy.

Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
Well, that's just like with everybody, Like I'm not going
to agree with every opinion that you have, but like,
because he'll be friends, you're not. I believe everything that
I believe in. Like, yeah, we just waver in different places.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
It doesn't sound like he's someone I would want to
be friends with. Yeah, I can still appreciate his art. Yeah,
there's and there's some lines.

Speaker 4 (01:09:10):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Neil Gaiman is on the road to being canceled. He's
getting cut from projects, his stories about him come out
and yeah, I don't remember the deed. It's the usual
piece of shit to women don't want to be affiliated
with him anymore. The co creator of Rick and Morty
is no longer involved in Yeah, no, not Dan, Yeah,

(01:09:32):
justin Roylan.

Speaker 3 (01:09:33):
I remember Dan Harmon got in some shit.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Yeah, Roylins was even worse. It was like underage girls.

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
Oh well, that's just like every band that I've ever
listened to.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
The problem that's yeah, that's I won't say women are
without their issues, but they're not usually on such like
a grand scope, like you know, individuals who do things.
But then it's not like every man you talk to
has the story of the woman who has done x
and that is it is unfortunate. I am misandrist memes

(01:10:06):
on Instagram. And now if you want to say your handle,
and if you don't want to check your handle, you
don have to.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
Sure, yeah, you can check my stuff out with the
podcast handles just at Boys Watching Buffy. We've moved on
to Veronica Mars at this point, but if you just
want to binge all of Buffy, it's up on our
podcast feed. Also, we did Angel on our Patreon, so
if you what that companion piece, it is just patreon
dot com backslash Boys Watching Buffy check out my burlesque

(01:10:33):
stuff where I post about the Buffy burlesque show that
I produce. That is at jojo vavoom.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
Hell yeah and.

Speaker 3 (01:10:43):
Uh yeah, I hope you guys check out the podcast.
And thanks for having me, Alison. I really enjoyed a
coming and chatting about Buffy.

Speaker 1 (01:10:51):
And we're stronger together. We'll see you next time you
want to say bye, no

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
P