February 11, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode, the Lesa interviews Sharon Pope, a master life coach, relationship expert, and seven-time best-selling author. Sharon shares her personal journey through divorce and offers invaluable advice on making tough decisions about whether to stay or leave a marriage. The discussion also explores the importance of working on oneself, setting boundaries, and the impact of divorce on children. Sharon emphasizes the need for community support and provides practical tools for helping children and parents navigate the complexities of divorce while maintaining healthy relationships. Whether you're contemplating a divorce, going through one, or looking to improve your relationship, this episode is packed with actionable insights and guidance.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
01:32 Sharon's Journey to Coaching
03:35 The Importance of Handling Divorce Well
06:31 Tools for Deciding to Stay or Go
13:25 The Role of Self-Improvement in Relationships
19:23 Helping Children Thrive Through Divorce
26:19 Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker (00:00):
Welcome listeners.
I have a treat for everyone today.
I have master life coach, relationshipexpert, seven time best selling author,
Sharon Pope and Sharon, you don't evenknow this, but the reason that I know you
is because my husband was a TikTok addict.
(00:21):
for a while.
And he was like, Hey, yougot to check out this lady.
And then listeners, youare going to learn so much.
And she, and if you want to, if you don'talready follow Sharon finder, you're on
Instagram, you're on Tik TOK, you havea podcast, you're all over the place.
You're helping people, um,make the decision to divorce.
(00:43):
Help their children through the process.
And that's kind of what we'regoing to talk about today.
First, of course, we're going to,you know, get your authentic story
and then we're going to get intoa little bit about how do you know
if it's time to stay or go, andwe're going to talk about the kids.
So that's basically, and I'm soexcited to get to know you better.
I know I'm going to learn so muchand just become better at what I do.
(01:05):
So Sharon, you are abig deal and thank you.
You are, and I appreciate youtaking the time to be here.
Honest to God.
So, um, welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I love it when men find my work.
I think that is fantastic.
And they turn their wives onto it.
I love that so much.
Speaker (01:26):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate you inviting me on.
Speaker (01:31):
Of course.
And can you just share what ledyou down the path to help people
with divorce or relationships?
And
Speaker 2 (01:39):
yeah, so 14 Years ago, I was in my first marriage and, um, and
that already tells you how that ended.
But I had been married to just agood, kind human being for 12 years
when it was all said and done.
And, um, when I was in the stayor go decision, I didn't, I didn't
(02:02):
know that there was help available.
I don't, maybe there was,I wasn't aware of it.
Um, so not surprisingly,I did a lot of things.
I don't want to say wrong, but wherenow I look back now having all these
tools, I look back and go, wow, Icould have done a lot of things better.
Um, so when I got into coaching, mycoach at the time very wisely said to me,
(02:28):
what do you want to talk about all day?
Because everyone said you should gointo executive coaching and all this,
because that was like my background.
I was in marketing for 20 years beforeI ever got into coaching and, um.
I said, all I want to talkabout is love and relationships
and relationships gone wrong.
And that's what I couldtalk about all day.
And she's like, excellent.
That's where we're going.
And so we went there, buthonestly, like, I don't sit here
(02:51):
from a perspective of being on apedestal of like, you should do it.
Like I did it.
You should be like, I actuallyam like, you know what?
Don't make the same mistakes that I did.
because I didn't have any tools.
Do better to learn from mymistakes so that you can do better.
And fortunately for my husband and I,the stakes were pretty small because
we didn't have children together.
(03:12):
We'd been together 12 yearsand we both had good careers.
So we could sort of like divide thingsreally peacefully and just move forward.
We used a mediator and it was smoothand it was peaceful and we're both
remarried and happy and we've moved on.
And It's, it's a lovely thing.
(03:32):
It doesn't have to be a horrible thing.
Speaker (03:35):
I thank you for saying that because that is when I want to get on
my soap box and let everyone know that.
And I love that you are taking somethingthat you went through and sharing it
with the world and helping them learnfrom what maybe not mistakes, but
things that you learned along the way.
And, um, you know, I love that yourfirst marriage ended peacefully because I
(03:57):
always tell people how you end one thing.
Is how you began another.
And so you, it sounds like both you andyour ex spouse are in happy marriages.
And I think part of that is probablybecause you handled the divorce so well.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Well, like I said, there's a lot of things that I would do,
knowing what I know today, I woulddo a lot of things differently.
Um, I was fortunate that he wasalso just, you know, a kindhearted
person that just didn't want,like, I didn't want to hate him.
You don't have to.
Right.
The thing is like, there'sthis idea that if we love each
(04:33):
other, we have to stay together.
And if we don't stay together,we have to hate each other.
And those are two very separate things.
You can actually love someone andstill choose to not be in your most
intimate relationship with them.
And you can choose to not be in arelationship with them and not hate them.
You can wish him well.
Like I love that he met someonethat thinks he is the cat's meow.
(04:57):
Love that for him.
He deserves to be loved like
Speaker (04:59):
that.
Like we all do.
That's yeah, that's remarkable.
And I think I mean, you didn't havekids, but it would be especially
helpful for children to see theirparents be able to behave that way.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, I mean, come on, if you have children, you are going to
be in one another's lives forever.
So why do you want to be in eachother's lives when you hate each other?
You don't, right?
And then by the way, you just putyour kids in the middle of it.
So I love how.
Art industry is helpingpeople do this differently.
(05:34):
Because it's so needed.
Like if you just leave people totheir own devices with their ego and
their fears and the scarcity mentalityand not knowing what to do and just
all their hurt and pain, and they'rejust going to act from that place.
But when you can, you canstart equipping them with.
How to do it really well, butwhy does that benefit your
(05:54):
whole family and that chain?
I think this is why I love to talkabout kids that changes generations.
Yeah, think about how your kids willthink about marriage if you if their
parents hate each other and then whattheir Relationships will be like and what
they will teach your grandkids some dad.
(06:16):
This is generational stufflike how this really matters
Speaker (06:21):
Yep.
I love that you brought that up.
And in fact, that was one of thequestions I had written down to ask you
at the very end was about that rippleeffect, but you just answered it.
So now I kind of want to go back to,sometimes there are listeners listening
in who are in that, that reallydifficult spot where they don't know.
(06:41):
Um, if they should stay or goand they can get your book,
which will be in the show notes.
But can you give us some little,without giving away the whole
book, give us some tools, um, orthings that they can think through?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yeah, I would say the biggest way to think about this, and it's
sort of a methodology approach thatI use, which is the one way to know.
Well, today, you know thatthe relationship isn't working
for you in some capacity.
Some it's a really extreme capacity.
It's not working for me.
(07:17):
And some are mildly irritated onthe rumble strip, like, um, time
to pay attention kind of thing.
Speaker (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
But if you go into it, the one way to know.
is that if you get equipped with realtools and then you genuinely try.
So a lot of times people will say, well,Sharon, I've been trying for years.
I've been trying to make my marriagefeel better because of course,
when your marriage doesn't feelgood, you want it to feel good.
So you try, but what we try is basedon what we have in our toolkits.
(07:50):
And if you think about it.
We come into marriage with preciouslittle in that toolkit outside of
what we experienced by watching ourparents growing up And they didn't
have any tools of training either.
So everyone's just out here doing thebest they can and kind of screwing it
up Right Unintentionally making mistakesbecause they just don't know no one's
(08:11):
ever taught them There was no class onlike how to create and sustain a loving
healthy connected marriage for I don'tknow Four or five decades together.
Speaker (08:19):
You know, it's interesting because I've been married for
32 years and oddly enough, I'mnot really Catholic anymore.
I'm a Christian, but we did gothrough marriaging marriage classes
and I think that they did help.
I mean, I think it was something,um, to help us, but Sharon, do
you, do you teach couples who arethinking, I mean, where do couples go?
(08:44):
That just popped into my head.
That's something some people need.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I literally, so for one of my clients, I have done that for her
children because her son was in a veryserious relationship and now he's married.
And so for the two of them, becauseit was a client, I did that.
But honestly, people tell me thatsometimes like you should talk to
people before they ever get married.
You should train them.
But the problem is, and this isjust human nature, is that we don't
(09:10):
do the things that we should do.
We don't, we don't get equippedto solve problems we don't have.
Speaker (09:16):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
We wait until we have the problem and then we're like, okay, now I
have a problem and now I need to solve it.
Right.
So no, one's looking like they goto their church or something, right.
Of for premarital counseling.
But you know, there's a huge differencebetween our, someone teaching us through
(09:37):
words and us having that life experience.
Speaker (09:41):
Yeah.
I mean, that's true for anything,just like your kids, you want
to tell your kids what to do.
It's not going to matter.
They've got to go do it.
And as you're sitting here talking,I'm thinking about father Malone,
who had never been married.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
You know, there's some very good advice, like
continue to date your wife.
treat each other as if it and don't justput the me when you get married, don an
accomplishment because we think we're atthe fin found our person and we'r we're
going to have a fam have a beautiful life.
(10:18):
An And that may be true, butyou are the starting line, my
friend, and things just got real.
And now we need, as you come up on thesethings, like, yes, it would be helpful to
have some tools in advance, but really,and truly, it's just human nature.
We'll wait until there'sa problem before we really
Speaker (10:33):
seek answers.
Right.
And I have to drop this onelittle tool in that they gave us.
They did.
We heard this, that couples that prayedtogether, whatever that looks like for
you only had a 2 percent divorce rate.
I don't know what the study was behindthat, but I do think that helps because
that's just kind of being a united front.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah.
It's being a team.
It's showing genuine care for your partnerwhen you're praying for your partner.
Like that shows like reallove and genuine care.
And honestly, anything that you aredoing that is consistent and it's
investing into the relationshipis only going to help you.
(11:15):
Many of us, once we get married,we pour all of our time, attention,
love, and energy into what's next.
And that might be buildinga business or a career.
It might be starting a family andcreating a home, but, and then that's
where our love and attention goesbecause the marriage isn't a problem.
It's fine.
We're still honeymooning.
We're a few years in it's allfine, but then we have kids.
(11:38):
And then when all of our attentionand love and energy goes towards that.
Years later, now we wonder why themarriage is suffering because we haven't
given it any attention and we've been tothe kids are thriving families, but the
marriage isn't feeling close anymore.
And that's when things start to go likethis, because no one ever really told
(11:59):
us like, heads up, you cannot disregardyour marriage when kids come around.
Kids are kids need you they need to beprioritized But you cannot leave scraps
and crumbs for your marriage and expectthat because that's the foundation
of your family That you're buildingeverything on top of and so when you let
the foundation just go to hell Like, uh,yeah, that, of course we're struggling, of
Speaker (12:23):
course we are.
And I think, I'm going to be reallyblatantly honest, I don't think I did a
good job of um, nurturing the marriage.
I was really into thekids and You're, you're in
Speaker 2 (12:34):
survival mode for crying out loud.
Speaker (12:37):
Yes.
Yes.
But I do want to talkto you about something.
And you know, my marriage,it's, it's been a long one.
It's a good one, but it isn't perfect.
And I've had my moments, right,where I've thought, I don't know
if, I don't know if this is right.
I don't know if I can, you know, whereI'm, you're starting to question things.
And I remember banging my head againstthe wall, trying to get my husband
(13:00):
To do something to make the marriage,like read a book about how to do
this so that we get along better.
And I was trying to get him to dostuff and he was like, not doing it.
And it was driving me insane.
And I, and I, you know, you hear oflike, you talk about that investment.
I think I could have been ledaway because I didn't think he was
investing, but then sharing whatkind of saved, not that we were.
(13:25):
I'm not going to say it saved ourmarriage, but what made it a lot better
was finally like, um, COVID hit and Iwent, Whoa, I need to work on my head.
And I got a coach and Istarted working on myself.
And this is what.
I keep telling my clients just takea little bit of time, put in one last
(13:48):
ditch effort and work on yourself.
Because as soon as, and I'm not sayingit happened right away, it's been
over a, you know, a two year process.
But as I began to love myself, asI began to put boundaries up, the
resentment went away and he was very.
(14:09):
Um, responsive, you know, he was, and Iwas, so sometimes I tell my clients, even
just putting the work into yourself cansave your marriage, even if they seem
like they're not going to be a part of it.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Not even, I would say that's the linchpin to it because if you think
about it, one of the reasons why westruggle in our relationships is because
there is this underlying feeling thatmy partner, if my partner would be
different, I would feel better becauseif they would just change this, if
they would start doing something thatthey're not doing, or if they would stop
(14:47):
doing something that they are doing,then I would feel better about this.
So they just need to change.
And we've all read this enough thatwe know intellectually, like you can't
actually change another human being right?
They can change, but you wantingthem to change is not enough of
a motivator because guess what?
Like everyone on the planet wantsyou to be someone who they need
you to be so they get better.
(15:09):
And so it never, ever works.
But in every situation,someone's got to lead.
And for better or for worse, I thinkit's actually better women take the lead
Speaker (15:21):
on
Speaker 2 (15:21):
their relationships because when it comes to the hierarchy of
what creates women's happiness, thequality and health of our relationships
is at the top of that hierarchy.
Speaker (15:30):
You
Speaker 2 (15:32):
know, for men, they've been socialized very differently
than women for some of them.
Relationships might be at the topof the hierarchy for some of them.
It might be more like successand accomplishment, and there's
nothing wrong with that, but wejust have different priorities.
And so whether we like it ornot, like women have been the
caretakers and nurturers of thequality of the relationship.
So we're the first to notice whenit's starting to go South, we're
(15:53):
the first to go out and seek answersand want to get things changed.
But the problem is theway we go about it is.
Well, you're the one thatneeds to change here.
Read this book, listen to this podcast,do this thing because we're not willing
to look at ourselves, which is bythe way, the only person we have any
ability to change, but nobody thinksthey're the problem because it's not
(16:14):
really, it's not really a problem.
It's not
Speaker (16:16):
really that you are the problem, but it was my thinking that was causing
it and my lack of setting up boundaries.
And so then I tell my clients at the veryleast, if you do this work on yourself.
And you're still ready to move forwardbecause it's not what you want.
You're going to be so much stronger.
(16:37):
You're going to be able touse this as an opportunity.
It's just a win win to do that work.
Well, you take yourself
Speaker 2 (16:44):
with you.
Like if he, this is the problem whenpeople say like my, he's the problem,
like some version of that, or they thinkthat then if I get rid of him and I'm
speaking from the female perspectivehere and have relationships, obviously,
but get rid of him, he's problem solved.
But then they go on tothe next relationship.
And I don't know, you probably knowthis better than I do, but second
(17:07):
marriages end at a much higher rate.
And third marriage hasended like in the 73, 74.
I know.
So why is that?
Because we keep thinkingsomeone else is the problem,
but we take ourselves with us.
So when you work on yourselves,darlings, you take yourself with you,
but what you will create in the futurewill look and feel very different than
what you created in this relationshipbecause you are now different.
(17:29):
So it's the linchpin foreverything is working on yourself.
Know thyself first.
Speaker (17:34):
Amen.
Sister.
And I just, I mean, I.
That would be the one thing Iwould wish for this audience to,
and there's so many resources.
I mean, it's awesome if you canafford a coach, that was great
for me, but coaches have podcasts.
There are books, there's somany resources available.
(17:55):
Tons.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
And there's plenty of ways to consume it, right?
Like, yes, there's, there's books.
Which require you, right?
I always say like I've written ninebooks, but if books alone solve the
problem, there's, there's more than 400,000 relationship books on Amazon today.
If books alone solve the problem, wouldwe have the divorce rates that we do?
(18:17):
No, we would not.
Speaker (18:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
So it requires you.
Right.
to take, like you're holding yourselfaccountable all the way up to, I want
one on one private coaching, right?
And there's tons of ways inbetween, between courses and
memberships and all this stuff.
Like
Speaker (18:32):
you
Speaker 2 (18:33):
can figure out what, where your sweet spot is, but
there's so many resources available.
It's just a matter of howmuch handholding you want.
It's sort of like apersonal trainer, right?
You don't go to a personal trainerbecause you don't know how to press.
Start on a treadmill orhow to pick up a bike.
You go because you want someone holdingyou accountable and pushing you further
(18:53):
than you would go if you were on your own.
Speaker (18:55):
Yes.
Same thing.
Which is interesting because I feellike I've been trained as a coach now.
And so I know how to coach,but I still need my coach.
Oh, you just said, yeah,
Speaker 2 (19:08):
you got someone who's got to help me see my blind
spots because everyone has them.
Speaker (19:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Right.
There's no shame in that.
Like, yeah, I will alwayshave a coach because I have
high expectations of myself.
Speaker (19:20):
Yes.
Yeah.
I agree.
I agree with you completely.
Okay.
So now I want to, we're gettinga little bit towards the end and
I want to talk about those kids.
Cause you know, theyare so precious to me.
And if we can just talk about, I sawsomething in your bio about you can
actually help them to thrive through this.
(19:41):
Give us some tools for that.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
All right.
So if we come into marriage only withwhat we saw growing up at home about
what love and marriage looks like.
Our kids are doing the same thing.
So if what they're seeing at homeis not the kind of love and marriage
example of what you would like forthem to see, or that you want that,
(20:07):
like, I always ask my clients,like, would you want your daughter
to be in a relationship like yours?
And they always say, heavens, no.
And I'm like, well, then why are you.
Making it okay.
Why are you telling yourself it's okaywhen it is clearly not okay with you.
So we either have to change it and makeit feel good for where you are today.
You have to evolve the relationship.
So it feels good from a new vantagepoint, or we have to lovingly release
(20:31):
it because we think it can't evolve, butthe only way to know is to really try.
So.
Wouldn't it be better for your kids tosay, like, like, look, love and marriage
is hard, but we're still in it to win it.
Like we're still fighting for it.
We're still reaching for it.
Or if we decide that we just wantdifferent things now, then how do we
(20:55):
do this in the most gentle, loving?
So the kids are so important and youknow, there's one tool that I like
to bring up when it comes to, let'ssay that you make the very painful
decision to end your marriage.
Every single parent on the planet thinksabout what is this going to do to my kids?
(21:16):
And one of the things that youcan do, what they want to know is,
am I okay, am I going to be okay?
Cause we are all self interested.
Our children show us this everyday, learn from puppies and babies.
And so what they wantto know is, am I okay?
And so it really helps for you to layout, here's all the things that are
(21:37):
going to change about your experience.
Like this can be like, who'spicking you up from school or
where you're spending the nightweek on week off, whatever it is.
Make that list but then also make alist and it should be three times as
long of all the things that are notgoing To change about their experience.
Speaker (21:54):
So good.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You're still gonna have the same like breakfast every day You're
still gonna go to the same school.
You're still gonna have the same friendsYou're still gonna be on the same baseball
team Like think of every single thingyou possibly can that is not going to
change about their experience becausethey're gonna go into fear Of the unknown.
This is new to them.
So when you start to put like,this is what you can expect
(22:18):
around the conversation.
Now it calms the fear, but I'lltell you what I have clients where
their kids are thriving afterdivorce in a way that they weren't.
When they were still in their marriage.
So I'll give you an example.
One of my clients, she, uh, her kidswere maybe, I'm gonna say like 11 and 14.
(22:40):
So like young teenager and her daughter,who was the 11 year old, um, would go to
her dad's house and she had become a veganand she would go to dad's house and he
would never have anything for her to eat.
And she went to her mom andshe's like, mom, can you tell
dad to get stuff for me to eat?
Cause he won't, he won't likehave stuff around the house.
(23:03):
And she in her infinite wisdom said,you know what, darling, I could do that.
But what would be even better is foryou to be able to express that to your
dad, because I know that he wants youto feel comfortable coming to his house.
So she's, so she invited her to notlike, I'm going to step in the middle
of this and say, be the savior.
(23:23):
And make this better, she learned howto set a boundary for herself of dad.
Here's what I need.
And Oh my God, I wish I would have learnedhow to set boundaries for myself at 11.
I was like 45 before Ilearned how to do that.
Speaker (23:38):
Well, and there's something, yeah, I was older than that.
So I was a
Speaker 2 (23:41):
grandma, what a gift that at 11, she's learning how
to set boundaries and that you'reallowed to, even with your parents.
You're allowed to say this is what I needand this is, this is what works for me
and this is what doesn't work for me.
You're allowed.
Speaker (23:55):
And Sharon, what I like is that you just gave a story that can be so
reassuring to parents because actuallyif you didn't go through the divorce, you
may not ever really develop that tool.
So that's where it's a gift.
Yeah.
And I love that.
And I knew I would love talking toyou because that little trick you
(24:16):
gave me, I hadn't heard before aboutwriting it all down, writing all
the things that are going to changeand all the things that are not.
And I cannot help but put alittle plug in here for, I have
this parenting plan course.
It's really reasonable on my website.
You can use it.
in your divorce paperwork in anystate, but it allows you to go through
(24:36):
together and plan your kids future.
I mean, it goes through the schedule,but it goes through more like
introducing a significant other,you know, so many things that you
may not think about, but it's justall part of the planning together.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Oh my gosh.
It's so important.
I have a, I have a good friend who,she, she went through a divorce.
And she had little ones at the time andshe said this to me and I share it with my
clients where she said, you know, you willbe challenged a thousand different times
around this idea of, oh, I love my kids.
I would walk in frontof a bus for my kids.
There is nothing Iwouldn't do for my kids.
(25:13):
Will you be kind when you don't feel likeyour partner is being kind for your kids?
Will you love their partner and beopen and accepting of their new partner
when they show up to Christmas dinner?
When you don't like her or whatever, likeyou say, you'll do anything for your kids.
Will you do that?
Will you do this?
Yes.
Will you do this kindly and gently?
(25:34):
Will you be kind and gentle when you feellike you're not being dealt with that way?
So you're going to be challenged in this.
And if you can keep going backto, do I really mean this?
I'm really going to dowhat's best for my kids.
And if you are, thenlet that be your guide.
Speaker (25:52):
That is magic.
And it's just being intentional and aware.
And I always like to say, ifyou mess up one time, give
yourself a hug because it's hard.
Yeah, and and be aware of it.
And then you have the chanceto go back and do it again.
I love that tip to every day.
Those are amazing.
Yeah.
Amazing tools and a different wayto think about it that I love.
(26:17):
That's going to help people.
So, okay.
So now I'm seeing the time is tickingaway and we're at the end and sharing.
I'm in my, I'm in my horse barn.
So I always say I'm going to rainit in at the end and we're going
to get a key takeaway from you.
You've already given us so many.
tools that we can use, but is thereanything, any key takeaway or piece
(26:38):
of advice, something the audience cando right away to have a better life?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
So I'm going to share something with you that
I just call borrowed courage.
So this is something that my My clientsin my group, or they all do this,
it's create, find, let's say this,find a community of people who are
walking through this with you becauseyour friends and family love you,
but they are not navigating divorce.
(27:07):
And so they have no frame of reference, orthey only have their frame of reference.
And their divorce went a certainway with certain dynamics.
Doesn't mean that that'sgoing to be your story.
So it could be completely irrelevant.
You need people, a group of peoplewho are walking through this at the
same time, because what will happenis you will see someone doing a really
hard thing, like telling their kids orhaving a difficult conversation with
(27:29):
their spouse or setting a boundary.
And what you'll do is you'llborrow their courage and you'll,
you'll be like, you know what, ifthey can do that, I can do this.
I can do this one nextthing that's in front of me.
And if you don't have that community,then what I would invite you to do is
write down three things that you've donethat are really hard, because I'm going
to tell you what, if you are a womanin this country, like And you're a mom.
(27:54):
You have done some hard things.
Okay.
Giving birth.
That's hard.
Hard.
Like you've done plenty of hard things.
Write down three of them so that youcan remind yourself like I'm strong.
I'm brave.
I'm resilient.
There's plenty of hard things I've done.
This is hard.
Yes.
But I can do hard things.
I do it all the time.
Yep.
Speaker (28:15):
So just remind yourself.
I love that.
I love that thought.
And it's believable when you, you know,are picking from what you've done.
So that is great.
Great advice.
And Sharon, if people want tofind you, where's the best place?
Well, like I said, we'llhave it in the show notes.
You are all over.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You can find me, it's pretty easy to find me, SharonPope.
com, but if you want to go, the bestplace I would recommend is you go grab
my book and you can go to SharonPopeBook.
com.
Okay,
Speaker (28:46):
perfect.
Listeners go grab it.
We just, you know, we just got some littletools right now that are going to help us.
I know there's a lot more in that book.
I'm getting it today.
As well.
So Sharon, thank you so much.
I really appreciate allyour thoughtful information.
I appreciate the work that you'redoing and I appreciate you taking
the time to be here with me today.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Thank you.
I've loved being
Speaker (29:09):
here.
Thank you.
Take good care.
All right.
You too.
Welcome listeners.
I have a treat for everyone today.
I have master life coach, relationshipexpert, seven time best selling author,
Sharon Pope and Sharon, you don't evenknow this, but the reason that I know you
is because my husband was a TikTok addict.
(00:21):
for a while.
And he was like, Hey, yougot to check out this lady.
And then listeners, youare going to learn so much.
And she, and if you want to, if you don'talready follow Sharon finder, you're on
Instagram, you're on Tik TOK, you havea podcast, you're all over the place.
You're helping people, um,make the decision to divorce.
(00:43):
Help their children through the process.
And that's kind of what we'regoing to talk about today.
First, of course, we're going to,you know, get your authentic story
and then we're going to get intoa little bit about how do you know
if it's time to stay or go, andwe're going to talk about the kids.
So that's basically, and I'm soexcited to get to know you better.
I know I'm going to learn so muchand just become better at what I do.
(01:05):
So Sharon, you are abig deal and thank you.
You are, and I appreciate youtaking the time to be here.
Honest to God.
So, um, welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I love it when men find my work.
I think that is fantastic.
And they turn their wives onto it.
I love that so much.
Speaker (01:26):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate you inviting me on.
Speaker (01:31):
Of course.
And can you just share what ledyou down the path to help people
with divorce or relationships?
And
Speaker 2 (01:39):
yeah, so 14 Years ago, I was in my first marriage and, um, and
that already tells you how that ended.
But I had been married to just agood, kind human being for 12 years
when it was all said and done.
And, um, when I was in the stayor go decision, I didn't, I didn't
(02:02):
know that there was help available.
I don't, maybe there was,I wasn't aware of it.
Um, so not surprisingly,I did a lot of things.
I don't want to say wrong, but wherenow I look back now having all these
tools, I look back and go, wow, Icould have done a lot of things better.
Um, so when I got into coaching, mycoach at the time very wisely said to me,
(02:28):
what do you want to talk about all day?
Because everyone said you should gointo executive coaching and all this,
because that was like my background.
I was in marketing for 20 years beforeI ever got into coaching and, um.
I said, all I want to talkabout is love and relationships
and relationships gone wrong.
And that's what I couldtalk about all day.
And she's like, excellent.
That's where we're going.
And so we went there, buthonestly, like, I don't sit here
(02:51):
from a perspective of being on apedestal of like, you should do it.
Like I did it.
You should be like, I actuallyam like, you know what?
Don't make the same mistakes that I did.
because I didn't have any tools.
Do better to learn from mymistakes so that you can do better.
And fortunately for my husband and I,the stakes were pretty small because
we didn't have children together.
(03:12):
We'd been together 12 yearsand we both had good careers.
So we could sort of like divide thingsreally peacefully and just move forward.
We used a mediator and it was smoothand it was peaceful and we're both
remarried and happy and we've moved on.
And It's, it's a lovely thing.
(03:32):
It doesn't have to be a horrible thing.
Speaker (03:35):
I thank you for saying that because that is when I want to get on
my soap box and let everyone know that.
And I love that you are taking somethingthat you went through and sharing it
with the world and helping them learnfrom what maybe not mistakes, but
things that you learned along the way.
And, um, you know, I love that yourfirst marriage ended peacefully because I
(03:57):
always tell people how you end one thing.
Is how you began another.
And so you, it sounds like both you andyour ex spouse are in happy marriages.
And I think part of that is probablybecause you handled the divorce so well.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Well, like I said, there's a lot of things that I would do,
knowing what I know today, I woulddo a lot of things differently.
Um, I was fortunate that he wasalso just, you know, a kindhearted
person that just didn't want,like, I didn't want to hate him.
You don't have to.
Right.
The thing is like, there'sthis idea that if we love each
(04:33):
other, we have to stay together.
And if we don't stay together,we have to hate each other.
And those are two very separate things.
You can actually love someone andstill choose to not be in your most
intimate relationship with them.
And you can choose to not be in arelationship with them and not hate them.
You can wish him well.
Like I love that he met someonethat thinks he is the cat's meow.
(04:57):
Love that for him.
He deserves to be loved like
Speaker (04:59):
that.
Like we all do.
That's yeah, that's remarkable.
And I think I mean, you didn't havekids, but it would be especially
helpful for children to see theirparents be able to behave that way.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, I mean, come on, if you have children, you are going to
be in one another's lives forever.
So why do you want to be in eachother's lives when you hate each other?
You don't, right?
And then by the way, you just putyour kids in the middle of it.
So I love how.
Art industry is helpingpeople do this differently.
(05:34):
Because it's so needed.
Like if you just leave people totheir own devices with their ego and
their fears and the scarcity mentalityand not knowing what to do and just
all their hurt and pain, and they'rejust going to act from that place.
But when you can, you canstart equipping them with.
How to do it really well, butwhy does that benefit your
(05:54):
whole family and that chain?
I think this is why I love to talkabout kids that changes generations.
Yeah, think about how your kids willthink about marriage if you if their
parents hate each other and then whattheir Relationships will be like and what
they will teach your grandkids some dad.
(06:16):
This is generational stufflike how this really matters
Speaker (06:21):
Yep.
I love that you brought that up.
And in fact, that was one of thequestions I had written down to ask you
at the very end was about that rippleeffect, but you just answered it.
So now I kind of want to go back to,sometimes there are listeners listening
in who are in that, that reallydifficult spot where they don't know.
(06:41):
Um, if they should stay or goand they can get your book,
which will be in the show notes.
But can you give us some little,without giving away the whole
book, give us some tools, um, orthings that they can think through?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yeah, I would say the biggest way to think about this, and it's
sort of a methodology approach thatI use, which is the one way to know.
Well, today, you know thatthe relationship isn't working
for you in some capacity.
Some it's a really extreme capacity.
It's not working for me.
(07:17):
And some are mildly irritated onthe rumble strip, like, um, time
to pay attention kind of thing.
Speaker (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
But if you go into it, the one way to know.
is that if you get equipped with realtools and then you genuinely try.
So a lot of times people will say, well,Sharon, I've been trying for years.
I've been trying to make my marriagefeel better because of course,
when your marriage doesn't feelgood, you want it to feel good.
So you try, but what we try is basedon what we have in our toolkits.
(07:50):
And if you think about it.
We come into marriage with preciouslittle in that toolkit outside of
what we experienced by watching ourparents growing up And they didn't
have any tools of training either.
So everyone's just out here doing thebest they can and kind of screwing it
up Right Unintentionally making mistakesbecause they just don't know no one's
(08:11):
ever taught them There was no class onlike how to create and sustain a loving
healthy connected marriage for I don'tknow Four or five decades together.
Speaker (08:19):
You know, it's interesting because I've been married for
32 years and oddly enough, I'mnot really Catholic anymore.
I'm a Christian, but we did gothrough marriaging marriage classes
and I think that they did help.
I mean, I think it was something,um, to help us, but Sharon, do
you, do you teach couples who arethinking, I mean, where do couples go?
(08:44):
That just popped into my head.
That's something some people need.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I literally, so for one of my clients, I have done that for her
children because her son was in a veryserious relationship and now he's married.
And so for the two of them, becauseit was a client, I did that.
But honestly, people tell me thatsometimes like you should talk to
people before they ever get married.
You should train them.
But the problem is, and this isjust human nature, is that we don't
(09:10):
do the things that we should do.
We don't, we don't get equippedto solve problems we don't have.
Speaker (09:16):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
We wait until we have the problem and then we're like, okay, now I
have a problem and now I need to solve it.
Right.
So no, one's looking like they goto their church or something, right.
Of for premarital counseling.
But you know, there's a huge differencebetween our, someone teaching us through
(09:37):
words and us having that life experience.
Speaker (09:41):
Yeah.
I mean, that's true for anything,just like your kids, you want
to tell your kids what to do.
It's not going to matter.
They've got to go do it.
And as you're sitting here talking,I'm thinking about father Malone,
who had never been married.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
You know, there's some very good advice, like
continue to date your wife.
treat each other as if it and don't justput the me when you get married, don an
accomplishment because we think we're atthe fin found our person and we'r we're
going to have a fam have a beautiful life.
(10:18):
An And that may be true, butyou are the starting line, my
friend, and things just got real.
And now we need, as you come up on thesethings, like, yes, it would be helpful to
have some tools in advance, but really,and truly, it's just human nature.
We'll wait until there'sa problem before we really
Speaker (10:33):
seek answers.
Right.
And I have to drop this onelittle tool in that they gave us.
They did.
We heard this, that couples that prayedtogether, whatever that looks like for
you only had a 2 percent divorce rate.
I don't know what the study was behindthat, but I do think that helps because
that's just kind of being a united front.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah.
It's being a team.
It's showing genuine care for your partnerwhen you're praying for your partner.
Like that shows like reallove and genuine care.
And honestly, anything that you aredoing that is consistent and it's
investing into the relationshipis only going to help you.
(11:15):
Many of us, once we get married,we pour all of our time, attention,
love, and energy into what's next.
And that might be buildinga business or a career.
It might be starting a family andcreating a home, but, and then that's
where our love and attention goesbecause the marriage isn't a problem.
It's fine.
We're still honeymooning.
We're a few years in it's allfine, but then we have kids.
(11:38):
And then when all of our attentionand love and energy goes towards that.
Years later, now we wonder why themarriage is suffering because we haven't
given it any attention and we've been tothe kids are thriving families, but the
marriage isn't feeling close anymore.
And that's when things start to go likethis, because no one ever really told
(11:59):
us like, heads up, you cannot disregardyour marriage when kids come around.
Kids are kids need you they need to beprioritized But you cannot leave scraps
and crumbs for your marriage and expectthat because that's the foundation
of your family That you're buildingeverything on top of and so when you let
the foundation just go to hell Like, uh,yeah, that, of course we're struggling, of
Speaker (12:23):
course we are.
And I think, I'm going to be reallyblatantly honest, I don't think I did a
good job of um, nurturing the marriage.
I was really into thekids and You're, you're in
Speaker 2 (12:34):
survival mode for crying out loud.
Speaker (12:37):
Yes.
Yes.
But I do want to talkto you about something.
And you know, my marriage,it's, it's been a long one.
It's a good one, but it isn't perfect.
And I've had my moments, right,where I've thought, I don't know
if, I don't know if this is right.
I don't know if I can, you know, whereI'm, you're starting to question things.
And I remember banging my head againstthe wall, trying to get my husband
(13:00):
To do something to make the marriage,like read a book about how to do
this so that we get along better.
And I was trying to get him to dostuff and he was like, not doing it.
And it was driving me insane.
And I, and I, you know, you hear oflike, you talk about that investment.
I think I could have been ledaway because I didn't think he was
investing, but then sharing whatkind of saved, not that we were.
(13:25):
I'm not going to say it saved ourmarriage, but what made it a lot better
was finally like, um, COVID hit and Iwent, Whoa, I need to work on my head.
And I got a coach and Istarted working on myself.
And this is what.
I keep telling my clients just takea little bit of time, put in one last
(13:48):
ditch effort and work on yourself.
Because as soon as, and I'm not sayingit happened right away, it's been
over a, you know, a two year process.
But as I began to love myself, asI began to put boundaries up, the
resentment went away and he was very.
(14:09):
Um, responsive, you know, he was, and Iwas, so sometimes I tell my clients, even
just putting the work into yourself cansave your marriage, even if they seem
like they're not going to be a part of it.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Not even, I would say that's the linchpin to it because if you think
about it, one of the reasons why westruggle in our relationships is because
there is this underlying feeling thatmy partner, if my partner would be
different, I would feel better becauseif they would just change this, if
they would start doing something thatthey're not doing, or if they would stop
(14:47):
doing something that they are doing,then I would feel better about this.
So they just need to change.
And we've all read this enough thatwe know intellectually, like you can't
actually change another human being right?
They can change, but you wantingthem to change is not enough of
a motivator because guess what?
Like everyone on the planet wantsyou to be someone who they need
you to be so they get better.
(15:09):
And so it never, ever works.
But in every situation,someone's got to lead.
And for better or for worse, I thinkit's actually better women take the lead
Speaker (15:21):
on
Speaker 2 (15:21):
their relationships because when it comes to the hierarchy of
what creates women's happiness, thequality and health of our relationships
is at the top of that hierarchy.
Speaker (15:30):
You
Speaker 2 (15:32):
know, for men, they've been socialized very differently
than women for some of them.
Relationships might be at the topof the hierarchy for some of them.
It might be more like successand accomplishment, and there's
nothing wrong with that, but wejust have different priorities.
And so whether we like it ornot, like women have been the
caretakers and nurturers of thequality of the relationship.
So we're the first to notice whenit's starting to go South, we're
(15:53):
the first to go out and seek answersand want to get things changed.
But the problem is theway we go about it is.
Well, you're the one thatneeds to change here.
Read this book, listen to this podcast,do this thing because we're not willing
to look at ourselves, which is bythe way, the only person we have any
ability to change, but nobody thinksthey're the problem because it's not
(16:14):
really, it's not really a problem.
It's not
Speaker (16:16):
really that you are the problem, but it was my thinking that was causing
it and my lack of setting up boundaries.
And so then I tell my clients at the veryleast, if you do this work on yourself.
And you're still ready to move forwardbecause it's not what you want.
You're going to be so much stronger.
(16:37):
You're going to be able touse this as an opportunity.
It's just a win win to do that work.
Well, you take yourself
Speaker 2 (16:44):
with you.
Like if he, this is the problem whenpeople say like my, he's the problem,
like some version of that, or they thinkthat then if I get rid of him and I'm
speaking from the female perspectivehere and have relationships, obviously,
but get rid of him, he's problem solved.
But then they go on tothe next relationship.
And I don't know, you probably knowthis better than I do, but second
(17:07):
marriages end at a much higher rate.
And third marriage hasended like in the 73, 74.
I know.
So why is that?
Because we keep thinkingsomeone else is the problem,
but we take ourselves with us.
So when you work on yourselves,darlings, you take yourself with you,
but what you will create in the futurewill look and feel very different than
what you created in this relationshipbecause you are now different.
(17:29):
So it's the linchpin foreverything is working on yourself.
Know thyself first.
Speaker (17:34):
Amen.
Sister.
And I just, I mean, I.
That would be the one thing Iwould wish for this audience to,
and there's so many resources.
I mean, it's awesome if you canafford a coach, that was great
for me, but coaches have podcasts.
There are books, there's somany resources available.
(17:55):
Tons.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
And there's plenty of ways to consume it, right?
Like, yes, there's, there's books.
Which require you, right?
I always say like I've written ninebooks, but if books alone solve the
problem, there's, there's more than 400,000 relationship books on Amazon today.
If books alone solve the problem, wouldwe have the divorce rates that we do?
(18:17):
No, we would not.
Speaker (18:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
So it requires you.
Right.
to take, like you're holding yourselfaccountable all the way up to, I want
one on one private coaching, right?
And there's tons of ways inbetween, between courses and
memberships and all this stuff.
Like
Speaker (18:32):
you
Speaker 2 (18:33):
can figure out what, where your sweet spot is, but
there's so many resources available.
It's just a matter of howmuch handholding you want.
It's sort of like apersonal trainer, right?
You don't go to a personal trainerbecause you don't know how to press.
Start on a treadmill orhow to pick up a bike.
You go because you want someone holdingyou accountable and pushing you further
(18:53):
than you would go if you were on your own.
Speaker (18:55):
Yes.
Same thing.
Which is interesting because I feellike I've been trained as a coach now.
And so I know how to coach,but I still need my coach.
Oh, you just said, yeah,
Speaker 2 (19:08):
you got someone who's got to help me see my blind
spots because everyone has them.
Speaker (19:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Right.
There's no shame in that.
Like, yeah, I will alwayshave a coach because I have
high expectations of myself.
Speaker (19:20):
Yes.
Yeah.
I agree.
I agree with you completely.
Okay.
So now I want to, we're gettinga little bit towards the end and
I want to talk about those kids.
Cause you know, theyare so precious to me.
And if we can just talk about, I sawsomething in your bio about you can
actually help them to thrive through this.
(19:41):
Give us some tools for that.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
All right.
So if we come into marriage only withwhat we saw growing up at home about
what love and marriage looks like.
Our kids are doing the same thing.
So if what they're seeing at homeis not the kind of love and marriage
example of what you would like forthem to see, or that you want that,
(20:07):
like, I always ask my clients,like, would you want your daughter
to be in a relationship like yours?
And they always say, heavens, no.
And I'm like, well, then why are you.
Making it okay.
Why are you telling yourself it's okaywhen it is clearly not okay with you.
So we either have to change it and makeit feel good for where you are today.
You have to evolve the relationship.
So it feels good from a new vantagepoint, or we have to lovingly release
(20:31):
it because we think it can't evolve, butthe only way to know is to really try.
So.
Wouldn't it be better for your kids tosay, like, like, look, love and marriage
is hard, but we're still in it to win it.
Like we're still fighting for it.
We're still reaching for it.
Or if we decide that we just wantdifferent things now, then how do we
(20:55):
do this in the most gentle, loving?
So the kids are so important and youknow, there's one tool that I like
to bring up when it comes to, let'ssay that you make the very painful
decision to end your marriage.
Every single parent on the planet thinksabout what is this going to do to my kids?
(21:16):
And one of the things that youcan do, what they want to know is,
am I okay, am I going to be okay?
Cause we are all self interested.
Our children show us this everyday, learn from puppies and babies.
And so what they wantto know is, am I okay?
And so it really helps for you to layout, here's all the things that are
(21:37):
going to change about your experience.
Like this can be like, who'spicking you up from school or
where you're spending the nightweek on week off, whatever it is.
Make that list but then also make alist and it should be three times as
long of all the things that are notgoing To change about their experience.
Speaker (21:54):
So good.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You're still gonna have the same like breakfast every day You're
still gonna go to the same school.
You're still gonna have the same friendsYou're still gonna be on the same baseball
team Like think of every single thingyou possibly can that is not going to
change about their experience becausethey're gonna go into fear Of the unknown.
This is new to them.
So when you start to put like,this is what you can expect
(22:18):
around the conversation.
Now it calms the fear, but I'lltell you what I have clients where
their kids are thriving afterdivorce in a way that they weren't.
When they were still in their marriage.
So I'll give you an example.
One of my clients, she, uh, her kidswere maybe, I'm gonna say like 11 and 14.
(22:40):
So like young teenager and her daughter,who was the 11 year old, um, would go to
her dad's house and she had become a veganand she would go to dad's house and he
would never have anything for her to eat.
And she went to her mom andshe's like, mom, can you tell
dad to get stuff for me to eat?
Cause he won't, he won't likehave stuff around the house.
(23:03):
And she in her infinite wisdom said,you know what, darling, I could do that.
But what would be even better is foryou to be able to express that to your
dad, because I know that he wants youto feel comfortable coming to his house.
So she's, so she invited her to notlike, I'm going to step in the middle
of this and say, be the savior.
(23:23):
And make this better, she learned howto set a boundary for herself of dad.
Here's what I need.
And Oh my God, I wish I would have learnedhow to set boundaries for myself at 11.
I was like 45 before Ilearned how to do that.
Speaker (23:38):
Well, and there's something, yeah, I was older than that.
So I was a
Speaker 2 (23:41):
grandma, what a gift that at 11, she's learning how
to set boundaries and that you'reallowed to, even with your parents.
You're allowed to say this is what I needand this is, this is what works for me
and this is what doesn't work for me.
You're allowed.
Speaker (23:55):
And Sharon, what I like is that you just gave a story that can be so
reassuring to parents because actuallyif you didn't go through the divorce, you
may not ever really develop that tool.
So that's where it's a gift.
Yeah.
And I love that.
And I knew I would love talking toyou because that little trick you
(24:16):
gave me, I hadn't heard before aboutwriting it all down, writing all
the things that are going to changeand all the things that are not.
And I cannot help but put alittle plug in here for, I have
this parenting plan course.
It's really reasonable on my website.
You can use it.
in your divorce paperwork in anystate, but it allows you to go through
(24:36):
together and plan your kids future.
I mean, it goes through the schedule,but it goes through more like
introducing a significant other,you know, so many things that you
may not think about, but it's justall part of the planning together.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Oh my gosh.
It's so important.
I have a, I have a good friend who,she, she went through a divorce.
And she had little ones at the time andshe said this to me and I share it with my
clients where she said, you know, you willbe challenged a thousand different times
around this idea of, oh, I love my kids.
I would walk in frontof a bus for my kids.
There is nothing Iwouldn't do for my kids.
(25:13):
Will you be kind when you don't feel likeyour partner is being kind for your kids?
Will you love their partner and beopen and accepting of their new partner
when they show up to Christmas dinner?
When you don't like her or whatever, likeyou say, you'll do anything for your kids.
Will you do that?
Will you do this?
Yes.
Will you do this kindly and gently?
(25:34):
Will you be kind and gentle when you feellike you're not being dealt with that way?
So you're going to be challenged in this.
And if you can keep going backto, do I really mean this?
I'm really going to dowhat's best for my kids.
And if you are, thenlet that be your guide.
Speaker (25:52):
That is magic.
And it's just being intentional and aware.
And I always like to say, ifyou mess up one time, give
yourself a hug because it's hard.
Yeah, and and be aware of it.
And then you have the chanceto go back and do it again.
I love that tip to every day.
Those are amazing.
Yeah.
Amazing tools and a different wayto think about it that I love.
(26:17):
That's going to help people.
So, okay.
So now I'm seeing the time is tickingaway and we're at the end and sharing.
I'm in my, I'm in my horse barn.
So I always say I'm going to rainit in at the end and we're going
to get a key takeaway from you.
You've already given us so many.
tools that we can use, but is thereanything, any key takeaway or piece
(26:38):
of advice, something the audience cando right away to have a better life?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
So I'm going to share something with you that
I just call borrowed courage.
So this is something that my My clientsin my group, or they all do this,
it's create, find, let's say this,find a community of people who are
walking through this with you becauseyour friends and family love you,
but they are not navigating divorce.
(27:07):
And so they have no frame of reference, orthey only have their frame of reference.
And their divorce went a certainway with certain dynamics.
Doesn't mean that that'sgoing to be your story.
So it could be completely irrelevant.
You need people, a group of peoplewho are walking through this at the
same time, because what will happenis you will see someone doing a really
hard thing, like telling their kids orhaving a difficult conversation with
(27:29):
their spouse or setting a boundary.
And what you'll do is you'llborrow their courage and you'll,
you'll be like, you know what, ifthey can do that, I can do this.
I can do this one nextthing that's in front of me.
And if you don't have that community,then what I would invite you to do is
write down three things that you've donethat are really hard, because I'm going
to tell you what, if you are a womanin this country, like And you're a mom.
(27:54):
You have done some hard things.
Okay.
Giving birth.
That's hard.
Hard.
Like you've done plenty of hard things.
Write down three of them so that youcan remind yourself like I'm strong.
I'm brave.
I'm resilient.
There's plenty of hard things I've done.
This is hard.
Yes.
But I can do hard things.
I do it all the time.
Yep.
Speaker (28:15):
So just remind yourself.
I love that.
I love that thought.
And it's believable when you, you know,are picking from what you've done.
So that is great.
Great advice.
And Sharon, if people want tofind you, where's the best place?
Well, like I said, we'llhave it in the show notes.
You are all over.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You can find me, it's pretty easy to find me, SharonPope.
com, but if you want to go, the bestplace I would recommend is you go grab
my book and you can go to SharonPopeBook.
com.
Okay,
Speaker (28:46):
perfect.
Listeners go grab it.
We just, you know, we just got some littletools right now that are going to help us.
I know there's a lot more in that book.
I'm getting it today.
As well.
So Sharon, thank you so much.
I really appreciate allyour thoughtful information.
I appreciate the work that you'redoing and I appreciate you taking
the time to be here with me today.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Thank you.
I've loved being
Speaker (29:09):
here.
Thank you.
Take good care.
All right.
You too.
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