August 25, 2025 • 24 mins
It’s a brutal catch-22 in conservation: what happens when lion numbers start to grow? The conflict with the local community often grows with them. Tragically, in Ngorongoro, a recent increase in lions attacking livestock has led to more retaliation killings, and it’s an incredibly challenging time on the ground.
In this episode, I’m back at Mama Simba’s and I get to introduce you to someone very special. Ololotu Munka is the Executive Director of Kope Lion, and he also happens to be my new boss! His story is genuinely inspiring. He applied for a job with the organisation years ago and wasn’t successful, but his passion for conservation and his community drove him to try again, and now he’s leading the entire team!
Ololotu talks us through the huge challenges the Kope Lion team is facing right now. He explains how they get information when a lion is killed, how they use GPS collars on ‘problem’ lions to prevent attacks, and the incredible work the Ilchokuti do on the ground to find and treat hundreds of livestock attacked by predators.
It’s a raw and honest look at the front line of human-wildlife conflict.
Get in touch via social media:
Instagram: @bobbyjosafaris
Facebook: Bobby-Jo Safaris
And to explore upcoming safaris: Bobby-Jo Safaris
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Safari Life with Bobby Jo, where you'll get a
front row seat to some of the most breathtaking wildlife
experiences on the planet. Bobby Jo's a wildlife
photographer and safari guide, leading photography tours to
incredible destinations like theSerengeti, Patagonia, India,
Antarctica and beyond. In this podcast, she shares
(00:21):
expert photography tips, behind the scenes stories, and insights
into Wildlife Conservation. If you'd like to learn more
about her tours and workshops, visit bobbyjoesafaris.com.
Good day honey Badgers. It's your chief honey badger
here Bobby Joe and I'm connecting of you once again at
(00:43):
Mama Simbas place on the edge ofGorongora Crater.
I've just arrived and I'm going to be spending the next week
with my team because how exciting.
I'm actually working for Copeline now and I'm going to be
spending some time introducing you to my boss.
I've got a lot to hear. Hello.
Hello. You technically are my boss now.
You're a good boss. You've been, you've been pretty
good. He hasn't been giving me too
(01:04):
much of a hard time. I've been doing lots of work
with the newsletter and social media and it's great because I'm
back here for a week to try to get more content for the
activities of the Ultra Kutti, some line monitoring and get to
go to a special meeting, which is amazing.
In a few days. Talk about that more in a
second. Tell the honey badges about you.
What's your story? Where did you grow up and where
(01:25):
are you from? I was born in La Leondo village,
It's part of Gorongoro district where I went to school for
primary school and afterwards I went to Arusha to pursue my
secondary education and thereafter I went for
university. In Le Leondo actually is the
place. Also, we have some wildlife in
(01:46):
the area and the work of conservation really connect with
me in many ways, but mostly in the content of having people and
the wildlife coexisting. Together you're you're Messiah,
right? Yeah, I'm Messiah.
You're Messiah. Have to think about that for a
second. Yeah.
So you speak MA all the time to the team or or you're mostly
speaking Swahili? So mostly I speak Masai when I'm
(02:09):
at home. Many people that are around me
are Masai, but I also speak Swahili when I'm out of all my
other areas like in town. Love to speak my language
because it's also connect me with my culture, my people, and
it will also build my relationship with the rest of
the community that I'm serving in.
Where did you go to university in Russia or Darussalam?
(02:31):
I went in Morrogoro in soccer University of Agriculture where
I pursue my degree on rural development.
So I'm a community expert, Ruraldevelopment.
Wow, Angara. I would say change agent.
Yeah, so I have that background and I work in personal community
(02:51):
back in the years before coming to Coppola.
But I spend most of my time in Longido and the Arusha district,
saving the wider mass, a community on eradication of
hunger, but also other related to livestock marketing.
And then after sometimes I was really, really pulled by my
(03:12):
passion of working on conservation.
And I thought like maybe Gorongoro and the other area
that within the Gorongoro district could be the right
place for me to work with the conservation, with the
community. So my first attempt in Coppell
Iron is when there is an advert that went out in 2017 for the
(03:34):
field operation officer. It was my first time actually to
apply for Coppola and but I could not manage actually to get
that job. And in 2020 I come across
another advert for programs coordinator.
I applied for that and I managedactually to get a job.
So I worked for four years as a programs coordinator and the
(03:55):
supervision of Sally Capa, who was my leading person, and then
in 2024 I advanced to a new roleof executive.
Executive director. Yeah, that's amazing that you.
That's really inspiring for people listening that go for a
job they really want and they'renot successful to start with
like yourself, and now you're the executive director.
(04:17):
That's amazing. Sometimes you need to chase your
dreams, starting somewhere. You cannot win at the beginning,
but as long as you have that passion and you are actually
inclined to be somewhere, I think you'll pursue you a dream
and eventually the dream will come true.
How does your family feel about your role here in Kopi Lion?
(04:40):
So I think my role model is my mother giving me a chance to go
to school, supporting me in every single step of my life.
So she's really proud of me being part of the community that
I come from in terms of making changes and working for them.
So I remember when I was starting Standard one, my mother
(05:02):
told me that you are going to school, you need actually to
pull your socks. You need to be somebody that can
help the community you are coming from.
You know them as they are havinga lot of challenges.
We have a lot of issues to address and we need education
that people like you to come andsupport our and make changes.
(05:23):
So my community and my family ingeneral, they're really proud of
me being in this position, but mostly proud of Koppel and
making changes in terms of conflict mitigation, but also
helping the community to live alongside with a lion, having
their son or having their personthat is part and parcel of that
(05:46):
team. Do you remember the first time
you ever saw a lion? Yeah.
So the first time I saw a lion was not really in Loliondo.
It was in Serengeti when I was heading to school and it was in
this bass from Loliondo to Arusha.
So initially in that time we were passing through Serengeti
then get to Arusha through karate.
(06:08):
So I saw that big, big cup of male lion.
I think the coalition big offline that are nomadic, they
are really stunning and it catchmy attention and it was really
made my day. I started actually having
interest on that though I had before, but having seen them
(06:28):
visually, it's really trigger mypassion to land, but also
thinking somebody someday to work for land.
Initially I would think even to be maybe a veterinarian, but
eventually I end up having a career of community which
actually brought me back to workfor people and for.
What are some of the real highlights of being in the role
(06:49):
that you're in with Coping line?Like what's things that really
you wake up and you go, yes, I'min a good job, I'm living my
best life, I'm helping people. What are some highlights that
have happened? One of the things that I'm happy
with, the coping line, especially on my role, the work
that we are doing does not really neglect or put aside the
culture of mass. For me, the culture is my
(07:11):
identification. The culture is everything that
drives me as a person. So having working with Coppola
and we in a position of integrating different tradition
and practice for mass into conservation really for me stand
out because we kind of mix the sustainability of what we have
(07:32):
as a mass in terms of culture, but also still pushing the
conservation of alliance and other wildlife in this area.
So basically this is one of the key profound things for me as a
person, but also as a leader in Koppel.
And but also I would say having a community LED approach which
(07:53):
we are using in addressing or preventing human or wildlife
conflict, which is which a good model.
It's really something that I appreciate.
We're also happy with because itgives chance for the local
community to engage in conservation, but also give
chance for the community to drive the conservation in their
(08:14):
own way for their own decision at the community.
So this make the community to bethe primary decision makers on
choosing their decision to live alongside with lions and other
wildlife. So I'm proud that Copper Lion
has turned out to actually involved the traditions in
(08:36):
mitigating human and conflict, but also conservation in
general, but also having a modelthat actually put the community
at the base for pushing the conservation efforts for.
Yeah, you speak so well. Actually, I feel like you you
have done some courses. You're speaking like you're at a
conference. I've been trying to engage
(08:57):
myself in different conference. I remember the first time when I
went to Rwanda in Epoch is African Protected Area.
Congress was a very big platformfor people to connect and speak.
And yeah, I had some chance to speak in Malia Sil Pavilion,
which really, yeah, trigger my interest to speak publicly, but
(09:20):
also building up my ability to communicate different issues
about Coppola and about myself to the wider audience.
Your communications even when I've been at home and we've had
the online Zoom session and my mom's been floating in the
background and she's listening and then she I get off the chat
she gets who was that? She's like, he speaks so well.
So you've been helping guide me with information for newsletters
(09:44):
and social media. And something we discovered the
other day was I'm always 1/2 glass full like a positive
person. I'm always sharing positive
things, but sometimes we forget to share the actual challenges
and some negative things that have happened or we do forget to
share that with the audience. So, I mean, tonight I was
chatting with Engler and I didn't realize that there'd been
(10:05):
some recent line sort of attacksor incidents with lines in the
area. I mean, we, we seal the positive
things, what some things that have been happening that have
been really challenging in that space.
I think you brought something tome that sometimes we focus on
sharing shining issues rather than being honest and sharing
and shining issues. Maybe this is something that we
(10:27):
can aim to improve in terms of our newsletter or in other ways
that we communicate with our audience.
So yeah, we really have some challenges in the ground.
We kind of having now an increased conflict in the area,
especially in case your area where we having that border
between Masua and the Gorongoro.We have seen like an increase of
(10:49):
lion presence which really process a big or significant
kind of dispersal of lion in thecommunity area and this has led
to an increase of conflict. Lions attacking livestock and
the bombers during the night sometimes attack livestock.
This also has regarded to killing of cup of lions between
(11:13):
May and June and this was retaliation because sometimes
people when landscale livestock,they see that they have that
right to retaliate. So having that is also alarming
to our work because we need actually to plan and make sure
that we have resources and enough team on the ground to
(11:36):
make sure that we are on top of communication but also top on
various steps towards addressingconflict of preventing conflict
the community. How do you find out if a lion's
been killed in a retaliation? How do you get that information?
Who tells you? Is there some is or is it just
the El Chikudi in the area? Like how does the information
get back to you that you've got a deadline?
(11:58):
We have a different ways of getting information but one of
the reliable source of information is our guys in the
ground who are patrolling in their areas on daily basis.
These guys also have a kind of connection with the different
people in the community. So the easier for them to get
this information when there is adeadlines or there is a line
(12:19):
that have attacked livestock in some places.
And then apart from that you know we are building our
relationship with the community.Our person who is dealing in
human and land conflict. Mr. Roy.
Malaria is good actually in connecting with different people
on the ground and get information even sometimes
that's not being had by the Chakuto on the ground.
(12:41):
So having that connection with the community really play a
great role in being connected and also receive fresh
information about Lions Attacks community.
It's a catch 22 like Lion, numbers appear to be growing,
but then that puts more pressureon community and it's a tricky
1I. Think this might be a different
(13:02):
way, like I would say the numberof land might be increasing, but
it to a very, I mean fairway. But another thing that I really
realized that the disparage of lands is big, yeah, like the
movement of plants that's also can really accelerate the
conflict. So sometimes you can have the
number of land that are fair to the carrying capacity of the
(13:24):
area. But if the community has
increased their tolerance towards lions, they don't kill
lion, maybe they don't retaliatequite often.
This also gives chance for the lion to move around in different
areas and as long as they move much, they can also be likely to
cause conflicts in the area. If you have a lion say I'm just
(13:44):
going to use language U. For example, a colored lion we
have say if he is coming into conflict with boners and he's
regularly doing it. What kind of litigation does
Kopi line provide? Like if you've got a problem
line that's got a bit of a pattern happening, how do you
guys deal with that? One of the things we are doing
currently is actually partners doing with the Gorongoli and
(14:06):
research project who they have that mandate and permission from
the government to collar lions. So in this case and also for the
interests of Copper Lion, then Gorongolan project to deploy
colors to land that are living or spending much time in the
community area. So troublesome lions is actually
one of the land that would focuson deploying color to them so
(14:30):
that we can be able to track on daily basis but also use the
information from the color to prevent them from attacking
livestock. It's not like 100% that we have
colored the land and then it canbe able to prevent conflict, but
it really help us in a big way. Yeah.
So you basically if you've got asignal, you get a GPS location
(14:51):
and say it's close to a Berman that then the Ultra Kuti on the
ground can alert those people. What we do on daily basis is we
check the position from 6:00 AM to 10:00 PM, checking where the
lines, colored lines are every two hours and then send the
information on the ground to ourChikuti.
And then Chikuti are now responsible to use that
(15:13):
information to alert the headers, to alert the entire
community on the presence of this colored land in area that
are likely to cause conflict. So it's kind of information from
the staff in the office to the ground.
And this information are really super helpful to help in
stopping or preventing colored land from causing conflict.
(15:34):
In addition to that, for those land that are not colored, I
will check with their role is actually to patrol from 6:30.
They go to their areas, check itif there is any indication of
line presence in terms of sportstrucks.
If they got those information, they can still use that
information to to run the community on the presence of
(15:56):
lies in the area that can cause conflict.
I just thought about something. This conflict in Kicacio, has
this been happening the last fewmonths, right?
Yeah, it's, you know, we are heading down to the conflict
season and. The migration was very heavy in
Kicacio around early March. It's moved up away now.
There's not. Is there like a lack of prey, a
lack of food in Kicacio for lions?
(16:17):
And is that why they go for cattle?
Because it's just. There's not much always when we
head from maybe we we have limited conflict season, which
is basically during the migration of wild beasts and the
arrival of other wild prey. And as we head to July, August,
then we end in the conflict season because of wild prey
(16:39):
become in the fee city. This also trigger lines to opt
for choosing livestock for food.During the dry season is when we
have a lot of lion attacking event to livestock because it's
when we have a lot of lands coming to the nearby areas where
people live, but also spending much of the time in pasture
(17:02):
areas. That's a very complicated
situation and we've the newsletter, which is coming out
soonish. It'll probably be out before
this podcast is on. We were going over numbers today
of things like boma repairs and wound treatment.
Do you have any idea of how muchwhich livestock has been lost
due to predators? Because it's not always lions
it's high in and leopard as well.
(17:22):
Do you remember what the number was over the last few months of
how many livestock might have been lost?
Yeah, I think for between. Or injured, Sorry.
April to June, I think we have managed to recover more than 200
livestock that have been lost and also treating about 55
livestock to the areas. But when you talk about the year
(17:44):
or six months, it might be a different figure.
But when you enter, maybe in theconflict season, you can really
experience a high number of livestock being treated because
of the cases of hyenas and otherpredators attacking.
Livestock the Messiah do lose a number of livestock student that
did completely predated on or they can't be treated and
(18:06):
unfortunately pass away. Yeah, that's that's amazing.
I the numbers really shocked me actually to see, I think
actually from the last quarter there was over, it was like
close to 522. Yeah.
Livestock recovered found. Yeah, the the numbers were
incredible. That's a lot of work, Yeah,
because of your team. So that's amazing.
Yeah, in fact, also most of their wounded livestock get
(18:30):
recovered. So from 10.4, I think we have
like more than 95% of the tutored livestock recovered.
Yeah, I think this is really a very important part of our work
because the entire community will really rely on livestock
for their livelihood. So having that service like
having your livestock been injured and get several
(18:50):
treatment and get recovered is really make a difference in the
household because that is the only a means of sustaining.
Yeah. And do those community members
contact you guys when need need help with treating livestock
for? Sure.
So every place where our field staff, the Djokuti are, they got
(19:11):
this information from the community themselves by calling
them directly or maybe even following to their home state.
They keep actually asking for this, yes.
I was lucky enough to attend a livestock wound treatment course
many years ago down in and do 2 with the team and I learned a
lot. But with my zoo background, I
(19:32):
haven't got a veterinary background, but we know how to
care and I guess help with wounds and treatments and zoo
animals. So yeah, I was so impressed a
few months ago when I went out with Kissyombe and Lucas and
their their treatment and how hygienic it was.
I mean, it's not a high, a bone is not a hygienic area.
I mean, there's flies and poop everywhere.
But I was really impressed with how clean they were keeping the
(19:54):
wound and their whole procedure of, of the treatment.
So it's quite amazing. Yeah.
You know, we have also the target every is actually to
train this Ichikuti on wound treatment and the other things
related to animal health. So basically every year.
We are planning actually to deliver I mean any refresher
train to improve their capacity and the skills on one treatment.
(20:17):
And this also can be measured bythe number of livestock being
treated and recovered. So I think the different that we
have seen maybe basically it's because of the training that
happened in November last year. And yeah, and also, you know, we
provide maximum supply of, I mean this equipment and the
other supplies for the wound treatment.
(20:38):
I mean, some of these wounds I showed my own work colleagues
and they'll just like, wow, there's some serious, especially
hyena wounds. I mean, they're probably the
worst ones I think. Yeah, for the top three of the
period that's causing conflict, the first one is the INR, So a
lot of wounded left so that we treat her from.
INR, yeah, I bet if you could reflect on your time and your
role as the Executive director of Copy Line, where do you want
(21:01):
to see Copy Line go? One of the thing that I want to
see Kopela in the future is actually to continue strength
and and having this model that we have for Djokuti.
I mean the human and wildlife conflict model, which is really
key towards I mean helping people to live with lands.
So I would really love to see itstrengthen, but also I want to
(21:23):
show this model to be really upscale within Dengorongoro in
the area that we have not covered.
But also basically in other areawhere password list and and
wildlife are coexisting together.
Just to make sure that the good thing that we have the model
that we have paid a lot of time and the other resources to build
(21:44):
should benefit other people in the area that we're working.
Because the idea our vision as organizations to have a
landscape that sustain all the form of living Organism, but
also having a bias that lands are than umbrella species.
So we really need to see that the land prosperity is across
(22:05):
the northern part of the Tanzania.
Yeah, it'd be great to see it just flourish and go to all
these other areas. I'm sure there's other areas
that in Tanzania that are struggling right now with lying
conflict. Yeah.
And I think having this kind of a model that give the community,
I mean, chance to see that they really have an opportunity to
(22:27):
involve themselves in conservinglands, it's really key to me as
a person working in an area where people live alongside with
wildlife. So I believe if we can convince
the world to convince decision makers and the government that
the community are key in conservation, will be in a good
(22:47):
position of having achievement or long term achievement in
conservation. Absolutely.
Well, thank you for all that youdo and for having me join the
team. It's been.
Yeah, I'm super proud. And I puff my chest out at work
and say I get to work with theseguys like it's it's amazing.
So thank you. Yeah.
In 2004, when I came to Ngorongoro for the first time,
(23:08):
driving through that road past, you know, past the Kopi line
office and even now seeing the tourists, I think that you you
really have no idea what's happening behind the scenes with
lines and conflict and communities.
And I think it's so important for tourists to know when
they're in this landscape, what's actually going on behind
the scenes and, and learn more about you guys as well and what
(23:29):
you do. But thank you very much and keep
up the great. Work, Yeah, thank you so much
Bobby Joe and I also say want tosay thank you back for you
because you have been brilliant mental person for us helping us
on different angles in terms of communication newsletter.
So I will say you are a part of the copper line.
(23:50):
We feel like you're part and parcel of our team and we are
really graceful to have you hereand also helping our team on the
ground for photo taking but alsoothers upon in terms of
communication. Yeah, Thank you very much.
OK, well, we're gonna have a great week anyways, but thanks
for chatting. Thank you.
If you. Enjoyed this episode?
Be sure to hit the follow buttonso you never miss an adventure.
(24:11):
You can keep up with Bobby Joe'swildlife photography and safari
journeys on Instagram and Facebook, book at Bobby Joe
Safaris, and if you'd love to join one of her photography
tours or workshops, you can findall the details at
bobbyjoesafaris.com.
Welcome to Safari Life with Bobby Jo, where you'll get a
front row seat to some of the most breathtaking wildlife
experiences on the planet. Bobby Jo's a wildlife
photographer and safari guide, leading photography tours to
incredible destinations like theSerengeti, Patagonia, India,
Antarctica and beyond. In this podcast, she shares
(00:21):
expert photography tips, behind the scenes stories, and insights
into Wildlife Conservation. If you'd like to learn more
about her tours and workshops, visit bobbyjoesafaris.com.
Good day honey Badgers. It's your chief honey badger
here Bobby Joe and I'm connecting of you once again at
(00:43):
Mama Simbas place on the edge ofGorongora Crater.
I've just arrived and I'm going to be spending the next week
with my team because how exciting.
I'm actually working for Copeline now and I'm going to be
spending some time introducing you to my boss.
I've got a lot to hear. Hello.
Hello. You technically are my boss now.
You're a good boss. You've been, you've been pretty
good. He hasn't been giving me too
(01:04):
much of a hard time. I've been doing lots of work
with the newsletter and social media and it's great because I'm
back here for a week to try to get more content for the
activities of the Ultra Kutti, some line monitoring and get to
go to a special meeting, which is amazing.
In a few days. Talk about that more in a
second. Tell the honey badges about you.
What's your story? Where did you grow up and where
(01:25):
are you from? I was born in La Leondo village,
It's part of Gorongoro district where I went to school for
primary school and afterwards I went to Arusha to pursue my
secondary education and thereafter I went for
university. In Le Leondo actually is the
place. Also, we have some wildlife in
(01:46):
the area and the work of conservation really connect with
me in many ways, but mostly in the content of having people and
the wildlife coexisting. Together you're you're Messiah,
right? Yeah, I'm Messiah.
You're Messiah. Have to think about that for a
second. Yeah.
So you speak MA all the time to the team or or you're mostly
speaking Swahili? So mostly I speak Masai when I'm
(02:09):
at home. Many people that are around me
are Masai, but I also speak Swahili when I'm out of all my
other areas like in town. Love to speak my language
because it's also connect me with my culture, my people, and
it will also build my relationship with the rest of
the community that I'm serving in.
Where did you go to university in Russia or Darussalam?
(02:31):
I went in Morrogoro in soccer University of Agriculture where
I pursue my degree on rural development.
So I'm a community expert, Ruraldevelopment.
Wow, Angara. I would say change agent.
Yeah, so I have that background and I work in personal community
(02:51):
back in the years before coming to Coppola.
But I spend most of my time in Longido and the Arusha district,
saving the wider mass, a community on eradication of
hunger, but also other related to livestock marketing.
And then after sometimes I was really, really pulled by my
(03:12):
passion of working on conservation.
And I thought like maybe Gorongoro and the other area
that within the Gorongoro district could be the right
place for me to work with the conservation, with the
community. So my first attempt in Coppell
Iron is when there is an advert that went out in 2017 for the
(03:34):
field operation officer. It was my first time actually to
apply for Coppola and but I could not manage actually to get
that job. And in 2020 I come across
another advert for programs coordinator.
I applied for that and I managedactually to get a job.
So I worked for four years as a programs coordinator and the
(03:55):
supervision of Sally Capa, who was my leading person, and then
in 2024 I advanced to a new roleof executive.
Executive director. Yeah, that's amazing that you.
That's really inspiring for people listening that go for a
job they really want and they'renot successful to start with
like yourself, and now you're the executive director.
(04:17):
That's amazing. Sometimes you need to chase your
dreams, starting somewhere. You cannot win at the beginning,
but as long as you have that passion and you are actually
inclined to be somewhere, I think you'll pursue you a dream
and eventually the dream will come true.
How does your family feel about your role here in Kopi Lion?
(04:40):
So I think my role model is my mother giving me a chance to go
to school, supporting me in every single step of my life.
So she's really proud of me being part of the community that
I come from in terms of making changes and working for them.
So I remember when I was starting Standard one, my mother
(05:02):
told me that you are going to school, you need actually to
pull your socks. You need to be somebody that can
help the community you are coming from.
You know them as they are havinga lot of challenges.
We have a lot of issues to address and we need education
that people like you to come andsupport our and make changes.
(05:23):
So my community and my family ingeneral, they're really proud of
me being in this position, but mostly proud of Koppel and
making changes in terms of conflict mitigation, but also
helping the community to live alongside with a lion, having
their son or having their personthat is part and parcel of that
(05:46):
team. Do you remember the first time
you ever saw a lion? Yeah.
So the first time I saw a lion was not really in Loliondo.
It was in Serengeti when I was heading to school and it was in
this bass from Loliondo to Arusha.
So initially in that time we were passing through Serengeti
then get to Arusha through karate.
(06:08):
So I saw that big, big cup of male lion.
I think the coalition big offline that are nomadic, they
are really stunning and it catchmy attention and it was really
made my day. I started actually having
interest on that though I had before, but having seen them
(06:28):
visually, it's really trigger mypassion to land, but also
thinking somebody someday to work for land.
Initially I would think even to be maybe a veterinarian, but
eventually I end up having a career of community which
actually brought me back to workfor people and for.
What are some of the real highlights of being in the role
(06:49):
that you're in with Coping line?Like what's things that really
you wake up and you go, yes, I'min a good job, I'm living my
best life, I'm helping people. What are some highlights that
have happened? One of the things that I'm happy
with, the coping line, especially on my role, the work
that we are doing does not really neglect or put aside the
culture of mass. For me, the culture is my
(07:11):
identification. The culture is everything that
drives me as a person. So having working with Coppola
and we in a position of integrating different tradition
and practice for mass into conservation really for me stand
out because we kind of mix the sustainability of what we have
(07:32):
as a mass in terms of culture, but also still pushing the
conservation of alliance and other wildlife in this area.
So basically this is one of the key profound things for me as a
person, but also as a leader in Koppel.
And but also I would say having a community LED approach which
(07:53):
we are using in addressing or preventing human or wildlife
conflict, which is which a good model.
It's really something that I appreciate.
We're also happy with because itgives chance for the local
community to engage in conservation, but also give
chance for the community to drive the conservation in their
(08:14):
own way for their own decision at the community.
So this make the community to bethe primary decision makers on
choosing their decision to live alongside with lions and other
wildlife. So I'm proud that Copper Lion
has turned out to actually involved the traditions in
(08:36):
mitigating human and conflict, but also conservation in
general, but also having a modelthat actually put the community
at the base for pushing the conservation efforts for.
Yeah, you speak so well. Actually, I feel like you you
have done some courses. You're speaking like you're at a
conference. I've been trying to engage
(08:57):
myself in different conference. I remember the first time when I
went to Rwanda in Epoch is African Protected Area.
Congress was a very big platformfor people to connect and speak.
And yeah, I had some chance to speak in Malia Sil Pavilion,
which really, yeah, trigger my interest to speak publicly, but
(09:20):
also building up my ability to communicate different issues
about Coppola and about myself to the wider audience.
Your communications even when I've been at home and we've had
the online Zoom session and my mom's been floating in the
background and she's listening and then she I get off the chat
she gets who was that? She's like, he speaks so well.
So you've been helping guide me with information for newsletters
(09:44):
and social media. And something we discovered the
other day was I'm always 1/2 glass full like a positive
person. I'm always sharing positive
things, but sometimes we forget to share the actual challenges
and some negative things that have happened or we do forget to
share that with the audience. So, I mean, tonight I was
chatting with Engler and I didn't realize that there'd been
(10:05):
some recent line sort of attacksor incidents with lines in the
area. I mean, we, we seal the positive
things, what some things that have been happening that have
been really challenging in that space.
I think you brought something tome that sometimes we focus on
sharing shining issues rather than being honest and sharing
and shining issues. Maybe this is something that we
(10:27):
can aim to improve in terms of our newsletter or in other ways
that we communicate with our audience.
So yeah, we really have some challenges in the ground.
We kind of having now an increased conflict in the area,
especially in case your area where we having that border
between Masua and the Gorongoro.We have seen like an increase of
(10:49):
lion presence which really process a big or significant
kind of dispersal of lion in thecommunity area and this has led
to an increase of conflict. Lions attacking livestock and
the bombers during the night sometimes attack livestock.
This also has regarded to killing of cup of lions between
(11:13):
May and June and this was retaliation because sometimes
people when landscale livestock,they see that they have that
right to retaliate. So having that is also alarming
to our work because we need actually to plan and make sure
that we have resources and enough team on the ground to
(11:36):
make sure that we are on top of communication but also top on
various steps towards addressingconflict of preventing conflict
the community. How do you find out if a lion's
been killed in a retaliation? How do you get that information?
Who tells you? Is there some is or is it just
the El Chikudi in the area? Like how does the information
get back to you that you've got a deadline?
(11:58):
We have a different ways of getting information but one of
the reliable source of information is our guys in the
ground who are patrolling in their areas on daily basis.
These guys also have a kind of connection with the different
people in the community. So the easier for them to get
this information when there is adeadlines or there is a line
(12:19):
that have attacked livestock in some places.
And then apart from that you know we are building our
relationship with the community.Our person who is dealing in
human and land conflict. Mr. Roy.
Malaria is good actually in connecting with different people
on the ground and get information even sometimes
that's not being had by the Chakuto on the ground.
(12:41):
So having that connection with the community really play a
great role in being connected and also receive fresh
information about Lions Attacks community.
It's a catch 22 like Lion, numbers appear to be growing,
but then that puts more pressureon community and it's a tricky
1I. Think this might be a different
(13:02):
way, like I would say the numberof land might be increasing, but
it to a very, I mean fairway. But another thing that I really
realized that the disparage of lands is big, yeah, like the
movement of plants that's also can really accelerate the
conflict. So sometimes you can have the
number of land that are fair to the carrying capacity of the
(13:24):
area. But if the community has
increased their tolerance towards lions, they don't kill
lion, maybe they don't retaliatequite often.
This also gives chance for the lion to move around in different
areas and as long as they move much, they can also be likely to
cause conflicts in the area. If you have a lion say I'm just
(13:44):
going to use language U. For example, a colored lion we
have say if he is coming into conflict with boners and he's
regularly doing it. What kind of litigation does
Kopi line provide? Like if you've got a problem
line that's got a bit of a pattern happening, how do you
guys deal with that? One of the things we are doing
currently is actually partners doing with the Gorongoli and
(14:06):
research project who they have that mandate and permission from
the government to collar lions. So in this case and also for the
interests of Copper Lion, then Gorongolan project to deploy
colors to land that are living or spending much time in the
community area. So troublesome lions is actually
one of the land that would focuson deploying color to them so
(14:30):
that we can be able to track on daily basis but also use the
information from the color to prevent them from attacking
livestock. It's not like 100% that we have
colored the land and then it canbe able to prevent conflict, but
it really help us in a big way. Yeah.
So you basically if you've got asignal, you get a GPS location
(14:51):
and say it's close to a Berman that then the Ultra Kuti on the
ground can alert those people. What we do on daily basis is we
check the position from 6:00 AM to 10:00 PM, checking where the
lines, colored lines are every two hours and then send the
information on the ground to ourChikuti.
And then Chikuti are now responsible to use that
(15:13):
information to alert the headers, to alert the entire
community on the presence of this colored land in area that
are likely to cause conflict. So it's kind of information from
the staff in the office to the ground.
And this information are really super helpful to help in
stopping or preventing colored land from causing conflict.
(15:34):
In addition to that, for those land that are not colored, I
will check with their role is actually to patrol from 6:30.
They go to their areas, check itif there is any indication of
line presence in terms of sportstrucks.
If they got those information, they can still use that
information to to run the community on the presence of
(15:56):
lies in the area that can cause conflict.
I just thought about something. This conflict in Kicacio, has
this been happening the last fewmonths, right?
Yeah, it's, you know, we are heading down to the conflict
season and. The migration was very heavy in
Kicacio around early March. It's moved up away now.
There's not. Is there like a lack of prey, a
lack of food in Kicacio for lions?
(16:17):
And is that why they go for cattle?
Because it's just. There's not much always when we
head from maybe we we have limited conflict season, which
is basically during the migration of wild beasts and the
arrival of other wild prey. And as we head to July, August,
then we end in the conflict season because of wild prey
(16:39):
become in the fee city. This also trigger lines to opt
for choosing livestock for food.During the dry season is when we
have a lot of lion attacking event to livestock because it's
when we have a lot of lands coming to the nearby areas where
people live, but also spending much of the time in pasture
(17:02):
areas. That's a very complicated
situation and we've the newsletter, which is coming out
soonish. It'll probably be out before
this podcast is on. We were going over numbers today
of things like boma repairs and wound treatment.
Do you have any idea of how muchwhich livestock has been lost
due to predators? Because it's not always lions
it's high in and leopard as well.
(17:22):
Do you remember what the number was over the last few months of
how many livestock might have been lost?
Yeah, I think for between. Or injured, Sorry.
April to June, I think we have managed to recover more than 200
livestock that have been lost and also treating about 55
livestock to the areas. But when you talk about the year
(17:44):
or six months, it might be a different figure.
But when you enter, maybe in theconflict season, you can really
experience a high number of livestock being treated because
of the cases of hyenas and otherpredators attacking.
Livestock the Messiah do lose a number of livestock student that
did completely predated on or they can't be treated and
(18:06):
unfortunately pass away. Yeah, that's that's amazing.
I the numbers really shocked me actually to see, I think
actually from the last quarter there was over, it was like
close to 522. Yeah.
Livestock recovered found. Yeah, the the numbers were
incredible. That's a lot of work, Yeah,
because of your team. So that's amazing.
Yeah, in fact, also most of their wounded livestock get
(18:30):
recovered. So from 10.4, I think we have
like more than 95% of the tutored livestock recovered.
Yeah, I think this is really a very important part of our work
because the entire community will really rely on livestock
for their livelihood. So having that service like
having your livestock been injured and get several
(18:50):
treatment and get recovered is really make a difference in the
household because that is the only a means of sustaining.
Yeah. And do those community members
contact you guys when need need help with treating livestock
for? Sure.
So every place where our field staff, the Djokuti are, they got
(19:11):
this information from the community themselves by calling
them directly or maybe even following to their home state.
They keep actually asking for this, yes.
I was lucky enough to attend a livestock wound treatment course
many years ago down in and do 2 with the team and I learned a
lot. But with my zoo background, I
(19:32):
haven't got a veterinary background, but we know how to
care and I guess help with wounds and treatments and zoo
animals. So yeah, I was so impressed a
few months ago when I went out with Kissyombe and Lucas and
their their treatment and how hygienic it was.
I mean, it's not a high, a bone is not a hygienic area.
I mean, there's flies and poop everywhere.
But I was really impressed with how clean they were keeping the
(19:54):
wound and their whole procedure of, of the treatment.
So it's quite amazing. Yeah.
You know, we have also the target every is actually to
train this Ichikuti on wound treatment and the other things
related to animal health. So basically every year.
We are planning actually to deliver I mean any refresher
train to improve their capacity and the skills on one treatment.
(20:17):
And this also can be measured bythe number of livestock being
treated and recovered. So I think the different that we
have seen maybe basically it's because of the training that
happened in November last year. And yeah, and also, you know, we
provide maximum supply of, I mean this equipment and the
other supplies for the wound treatment.
(20:38):
I mean, some of these wounds I showed my own work colleagues
and they'll just like, wow, there's some serious, especially
hyena wounds. I mean, they're probably the
worst ones I think. Yeah, for the top three of the
period that's causing conflict, the first one is the INR, So a
lot of wounded left so that we treat her from.
INR, yeah, I bet if you could reflect on your time and your
role as the Executive director of Copy Line, where do you want
(21:01):
to see Copy Line go? One of the thing that I want to
see Kopela in the future is actually to continue strength
and and having this model that we have for Djokuti.
I mean the human and wildlife conflict model, which is really
key towards I mean helping people to live with lands.
So I would really love to see itstrengthen, but also I want to
(21:23):
show this model to be really upscale within Dengorongoro in
the area that we have not covered.
But also basically in other areawhere password list and and
wildlife are coexisting together.
Just to make sure that the good thing that we have the model
that we have paid a lot of time and the other resources to build
(21:44):
should benefit other people in the area that we're working.
Because the idea our vision as organizations to have a
landscape that sustain all the form of living Organism, but
also having a bias that lands are than umbrella species.
So we really need to see that the land prosperity is across
(22:05):
the northern part of the Tanzania.
Yeah, it'd be great to see it just flourish and go to all
these other areas. I'm sure there's other areas
that in Tanzania that are struggling right now with lying
conflict. Yeah.
And I think having this kind of a model that give the community,
I mean, chance to see that they really have an opportunity to
(22:27):
involve themselves in conservinglands, it's really key to me as
a person working in an area where people live alongside with
wildlife. So I believe if we can convince
the world to convince decision makers and the government that
the community are key in conservation, will be in a good
(22:47):
position of having achievement or long term achievement in
conservation. Absolutely.
Well, thank you for all that youdo and for having me join the
team. It's been.
Yeah, I'm super proud. And I puff my chest out at work
and say I get to work with theseguys like it's it's amazing.
So thank you. Yeah.
In 2004, when I came to Ngorongoro for the first time,
(23:08):
driving through that road past, you know, past the Kopi line
office and even now seeing the tourists, I think that you you
really have no idea what's happening behind the scenes with
lines and conflict and communities.
And I think it's so important for tourists to know when
they're in this landscape, what's actually going on behind
the scenes and, and learn more about you guys as well and what
(23:29):
you do. But thank you very much and keep
up the great. Work, Yeah, thank you so much
Bobby Joe and I also say want tosay thank you back for you
because you have been brilliant mental person for us helping us
on different angles in terms of communication newsletter.
So I will say you are a part of the copper line.
(23:50):
We feel like you're part and parcel of our team and we are
really graceful to have you hereand also helping our team on the
ground for photo taking but alsoothers upon in terms of
communication. Yeah, Thank you very much.
OK, well, we're gonna have a great week anyways, but thanks
for chatting. Thank you.
If you. Enjoyed this episode?
Be sure to hit the follow buttonso you never miss an adventure.
(24:11):
You can keep up with Bobby Joe'swildlife photography and safari
journeys on Instagram and Facebook, book at Bobby Joe
Safaris, and if you'd love to join one of her photography
tours or workshops, you can findall the details at
bobbyjoesafaris.com.
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