August 11, 2025 • 26 mins
OK, before I get to how I just got chased by a lion...
I've gotta say, I was so angry and sad when I saw some footage online recently.
Dozens of tourists had gotten out of their vehicles at the Mara River crossing on the Serengeti side, some standing on the roofs of their cars, others sitting right on the riverbank. This is completely illegal and incredibly dangerous, and it was all happening as a huge herd of wildebeest were attempting one of the most stressful moments of their lives.
In this episode, I talk you through the chaos that unfolded and what I think needs to be done to protect these animals from this kind of tourist pressure. I’ve seen firsthand how overwhelming these crossings are for the wildebeest (I’ve cried while taking photos of calves being forced over cliffs), and we really need to talk about how to manage these sightings better, from permits and fines to the responsibilities of the guides.
But it's not all frustration out here! I also share one of the most wholesome and beautiful sightings I've had in a long time. By sitting patiently and giving them space, I was rewarded with an intimate view into the world of a black-backed jackal family and their tiny, brand-new puppies. It’s a perfect reminder that when you sit back and respect the animal's space, you get to witness the most incredible natural behaviour.
Plus, I’ll tell you about the hippo I spotted doing a hilarious ‘walk of shame’ and I finish with the story of how I just got chased by a lion!!!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Safari Life with Bobby Jo, where you'll get a
front row seat to some of the most breathtaking wildlife
experiences on the planet. Bobby Jo's a wildlife
photographer and safari guide, leading photography tours to
incredible destinations like theSerengeti, Patagonia, India,
Antarctica and beyond. In this podcast, she shares
(00:21):
expert photography tips, behind the scenes stories, and insights
into Wildlife Conservation. If you'd like to learn more
about her tours and workshops, visit bobbyjoesafaris.com.
Morning honey Badgers. I am back on the Mara Plain,
Mara North plains and looking for some critters.
(00:45):
I currently have zebra in front of me, Topi to my right, an
Impala to my left and a lonely wildebeest.
A resident wildebeest and I think he's got it all sorted.
I mean, if I was a wildebeest, Iwould definitely be a resident.
I would not be crossing the MaraRiver every year risking my
life. It's quite funny here.
The wildebeest actually, they pair up with topi and they hang
(01:08):
around with zebra. They're smart animals.
We don't give them enough credit.
They they know who to stay with to keep safe.
So you always sort of find a lone wildebeest hanging out with
a herd of zebra or with topi. Now Speaking of wildebeest, you
guys might have seen on social media and on the news a massive
blow up at the Mara River on theSerengeti side.
(01:30):
It was all across social media. A well known South African
photographer I think shared a video of a heap of vehicles,
like 50-60 vehicles at crossing #4 which is directly across from
Alex's other camp Lamai, which I've worked at many times.
And it's quite a spectacular crossing point, steep cliffs.
(01:50):
It's better when you're on the Lamai side because you can see
the wildebeest obviously coming towards you.
But it's quite dramatic and it'sone where the wildebeest do
sometimes launch themselves off the cliffs.
Now people really want that shot.
For me that shot is stressful. It's I get high anxiety for
these animals. Some of these animals break
their legs and injure themselves.
(02:10):
And last year I witnessed a heapof wildebeest jumping from
crossing #4 Hyatt was crying whilst I was taking photos, like
little wildebeest calves under that sort of, you know,
conforming to the rest of the herd.
And the pressure that was building up had no choice but to
kind of launch themselves off the side of the Cliff.
And I found it really, really overwhelming and sad and
(02:35):
stressful. And what's not great is when you
get loads of vehicles sort of hovering around crossing.
It's not a great spot on the Cogatende side.
So the Mara River runs through Serengeti, Kenya.
A lot of people think that the wildebeests are crossing from
Tanzania to Kenya, which they are.
But the actual crossing points, the ones that I visit, are
(02:57):
basically from Serengeti to Serengeti.
But you just got crossing the Mara River.
And on the Cogatende side, there's not much room for
vehicles. There's lots of bushes.
It's it's a tricky spot to watcha crossing.
And that's where a big crossing happened only last week.
And vehicles started sort of bunching up together.
(03:20):
And of course, people can't see.And I understand that people
have flown from all around the world, like far corners of the
Earth to come and witness one ofthe most greatest wildlife
spectacles on the planet. And they want to see it.
And if it's happening and they can't see it, they're going to
do whatever they can to see it. And in this photo and this video
footage, people are actually getting out of their.
(03:40):
Vehicles and. They're standing on top of the
vehicle, which is very dangerousand illegal.
And then they're also standing, sitting outside the vehicles on
the edge of the river. There's like about 50-60 people
sitting on the edge of the river.
Now this is this is illegal in aNational Park.
It's pretty much frowned upon everywhere in nature reserves
across the world. And not only are the cars
(04:03):
stressful for the wildebeests, Imean, the wildebeests are about
to go through the most, one of the most stressful moments of
their life. And they're crossing that river.
They're trying not to drown. They're trying not to get
stampeded on. And they're also trying to avoid
crocodiles and big cats that might be wait, waiting for them
on the other side. And then you add the tourist
vehicles to it. And people, people, we, we are
very different. We are quite scary to an animal
(04:23):
when we're out of our car, we'relike a giant baboon, upright
baboon. And that's scary for a lot of
animals, including predators. So the wildebeest, it affected
the crossing, it was horrific. It made me sad, it made me
angry. It should make everybody angry.
But a lot of things have to comeinto place for this to be fixed.
(04:43):
First of all, there needs to be more presence of Rangers
patrolling those areas and sort of trying to control the way
that we're viewing the crossings.
The crossing is there for everybody.
I mean, everybody has the right to be there.
Everyone on the planet that can afford to come to the Serengeti,
they've saved up their entire life.
Everyone has the right to be there, but it needs to be
managed. And the Masai Mara have done it
(05:04):
really well. They were there a few years back
with out of control crossing viewing and they fixed it.
They've hired more Rangers to control the crossings, but also
stricter penalties for guides and for companies.
So everyone needs to abide by the rules.
Each guide needs to be responsible for the way their
guests are viewing wildlife. They are the leaders.
They they're in charge of the sightings when they're with
(05:26):
their guests. So I think whistle blowing on
companies and guides, it's not really that fair.
I think the answer to fixing these out of control crossing
moments is restricting the number of people in the area to
start with. I wouldn't mind paying.
We're already paying an absoluteeye watering amount to be there,
(05:47):
but I wouldn't mind paying a little bit extra for a permit or
I guess limit the number of vehicles coming into the park so
you've got so many permits per day and that way people have to
plan their trip a little bit better.
I'd also have, I guess, the day trippers that come up from the
central Serengeti. I would be forcing them to stay
in the Cogatende Lamai area if they want to view the crossing
(06:08):
and not be able to just drive upfor the day because then that
puts a lot of pressure on their guide to get a crossing and to
see, you know, see the wildebeest.
The fines, heavy fines for drivers and guides that are not
adhering to the rules will help.But also fixing the bridge
between Levine Cogatende that's down, that's been down for
almost 2 years. I think maybe, maybe has been
(06:29):
two years now. That would also fix the
congestion issues on the Cogatende side.
So I'm going to be heading to the Cogatende side in about 2
1/2 weeks with my own honey badges.
I've already had this conversation with them.
I shared the photos and the video footage of what happened
and I wanted to make it really clear that Pharos and I would
never put our guests in a situation where we would get
(06:50):
them out of the car or we will avoid highly congested areas.
It might mean we don't see a crossing, but that's OK.
Wildlife comes first. The biggest thing I think that
can help with congested wildlifesightings and people's mindset
is bring some good camera gear. Stop relying on your phones.
(07:11):
Phones are amazing for video footage but bring some popular
camera gear and you don't have to be up close.
You can sit back and watch wildlife.
When you sit back and you're nottrying to get an extreme close
up of an animal, you actually see so much more natural
behaviour. It's a it's a better experience.
So invest in that camera lens. I know you don't want to bring
(07:32):
it with you on the planes but trust me, you won't regret it,
especially if you book yourself on a photographic safari.
It's not a shameless plug, you could go of anyone you'd like.
But learn. Learn photography and you can
sit back, come with the mindset of just viewing it with your
eyes or with binoculars. It doesn't have to be plastered
all over social media and Instagram for it to be valid and
(07:53):
to be proof that it happened. And now that's very rich coming
from me who shares a lot on social media.
But I'm also running a business and trying to advertise my
business. If I didn't have a business I
might post the odd photo here and there, but I think social
media has a lot to answer for when it comes to viewing
wildlife. Everybody wants to see a
crossing. Most people think a crossing is
(08:15):
the migration and that that is the reason that their trip's
successful. If it's a marker of success, if
they've seen a crossing, it should be seen the actual
wildebeest. When you get amongst the
wildebeest, you know I'm talkingthousands of animals and you're
driving amongst the wildebeest. It is a mind blowing experience.
The crossing's actually quite stressful for people and
(08:35):
animals. The guides and I often refer to
the crossing as the Great Migration of Land Cruisers and
we actually act like wildebeest.If you watch the vehicles at a
crossing, me included and Ferrell's included, we act like
wildebeest. We go forward, we go back, we
follow the crowds. Is it happening?
It's quite funny. We look like the wildebeest.
I think you need to do your research when you're coming to
(08:59):
these places that are renowned for being a little bit busy and
highly excitable sightings like a crossing.
If you're coming to East Africa and you really want to come to
the Northern Serengeti for a chance to view a crossing, we
want to come to the Southern Serengeti in the earlier part of
the year, January, February, March.
Do your research, go with ethical guides.
(09:19):
All you have to do is look at their social media, see what
kind of content they're posting,look at reviews, ask people like
myself. I'm more than happy to give
advice about reputable companies, good guides, because
it makes a difference. You want someone that cares
about wildlife first, wildlife safety and people safety.
Is that the priority for them? Because at the end of the day,
(09:41):
these animals are living their lives out here.
They're under great stress. They're trying to survive,
they're trying to reproduce. And we do add an extra stress to
it. And I'm not going to lie,
tourism is affecting wildlife, especially cheetah.
We're speaking to a cheetah researcher the other day, and
she's saying that vehicles that are getting too close to cheetah
when they're trying to hunt, it's stopping them from hunting.
(10:04):
And so they're starving. And there's a massive decline in
cheetah numbers in the great Amara area.
They're down to about 6060 cheetah.
So if you want to come here and experience this, I mean, it's my
life. I love it.
Do your research, look for greatcompanies, great guides, ask
(10:24):
around, talk to people. Invest in a good camera.
It doesn't have to be a massive beast like mine, just something
that can get you in a bit closerwhilst you sit back a bit.
Go ahead. Some cars where you saw the
other lioness, the other. Day.
Sorry, which lioness? Whereabouts.
(10:44):
Follow the road you remember, where you saw the lioness.
The other day. OK, I'm headed that way now.
Thank you. OK, Just that was Dennis on the
radio. He God loving, he loves to radio
me and let me know where the action's happening.
And I'm still a bit confused about where that is.
He said where the lioness was the other day, and there's been
(11:05):
a lot of lionesses. So I've just seen lots of cars.
So there's a big sighting happening.
Guys, I'll be back. I am full driving through mud
right now. Oh my word, I have really picked
up some forward driving skills whilst I've been in the Mara N
it's rained every day since I'vebeen here and the Suzuki's quite
(11:28):
lightweight, which is good, but I mean I'm not that much of an
experienced 4 wheel drive chick.I do a little bit at home but
it's been really great for my skill set.
I've learnt that these little Suzuki's are amazing for getting
through mud, not so good for getting over the rocks though.
Not enough height. It's actually inspired me to
maybe get more into four wheel driving when I get home.
(11:51):
I'm nervous about trashing my Mitsubishi Triton, but you know
what, it's meant to be trashed isn't it?
It's meant to be a four wheel drive.
So look out Dubbo when I get home.
I'm probably full of shit. Actually, I'm probably not going
to do anything, so I just spent some time with the oldest
lioness of the Syrian pride and the three sub adults.
They killed a zebra last night, so they're just for the
(12:12):
finishing. That off I've just.
Got pushed off to sighting so. There's very strict rules.
Here in the Mahra N Conservancy that if there's more than five
vehicles, you have to wait your turn.
Sometimes what happens is. I was kind of.
Last on the scene, but then somemore vehicles turned up.
So the rule. Is is that once that fifth
(12:34):
vehicle turns up, the last person has to go.
So sometimes it actually pays toget there a bit later because
you can stay longer. But I've I've.
Only got maybe 5-5 to 10 minutesin, but that's fine.
The rules are in place for a reason and that's to help not
put pressure on animals. I'm just sort of sitting on the
outside now waiting for some of the vehicles to go so I can go
back in there and get some photos.
(12:55):
So I'm a bit of an outsider here.
I'm a Mazungu female. Female Mazungu that's not in
her. Territory.
So even though I'm quite polite and move.
Out of the siding and let peoplein.
They don't always return the favour, so I am not being let
back into this site and the action's happening and it's very
frustrating because. The lion Cubs are.
(13:16):
Playing and I'm still sitting onthe outside.
Waiting to get in. I guess that's just the way the
cookie crumbles. I'm not.
Going to get upset about it. I might just go.
Off and find my own thing or maybe go for a bit of.
Breakfast. That's sort of one of the many.
You know, just like any workplace, there's.
Little nuances and little hierarchy.
You know, hierarchy. Things happening in a workplace
(13:36):
and it also. Happens in the Safari world
anyways. I'll let them.
Good morning, honey Badges. I'm back out in the Suzuki,
starting her up and I have just come across a hippo.
It's 6:37 in the morning, the sun has not come up yet.
But the hippos, most people don't realize this, but they
(13:59):
obviously living in the water, in the river system, in the Mai
River here and also other littledams and small water holes.
That's mostly the males that have been kicked out of the the
pod. Poor old males.
They, they get kicked out by some new male and they go and
live a little bit of a lonely life and a small body of water
on the plains. But I've just seen a big female
(14:19):
coming home and she's what they do is they tend to go grazing
lots of different types of grasses.
Sometimes they eat seed pods when there's not really good
grass, but they go out into the plains and sometimes they can
walk up to I believe 20 kilometres in search of good
graze. Now there's a huge escarpment
here that is sort of above. The Mara North.
(14:40):
And I went for a walk up there last time I was here and found
hippo poop all at the top. So there's hippos there.
Don't let their bodies fool you,they're quite athletic, even
with those tiny little legs. They can walk all the way up to
the top of your scarf, which is very steep.
So I've just spotted this one coming home.
And it's looked at me really nervous and it's sort of
gingerly gone across the road and looked back at me.
(15:02):
And the best way I can describe what a hippo looks like when you
bust it, you know, you, you're busted at coming home from the
night. It's like the walk of shame,
right? We've all been there, high heels
in hand, walking down the road, still in your your outfit from
the night before. I know I've been there many
times, especially after zoo functions.
Walking down Bradley's Head Rd. in Mossman looking glamorous.
(15:26):
So hippos with high heels cominghome for the night.
Walk of shame. Guys, I've just found tiny
Jackal puppies. I'm going to see if I can get a
bit closer. They're so cute.
They're the tiniest little. Puppies, they're so.
Cute. They're shivering.
So I've just found a Jackal family, this black back Jackal,
(15:46):
and the male is grooming the female just on the side of the
road here. He's just really grooming her
and really fussing her. It's quite beautiful.
She's really enjoying it now, the mutual grooming.
So she's grooming him. The light's quite low, so I'm
using pretty high ISO. I'm about 1000 ISO 2.85
hundredths of a second and a tiny tiny puppy came out of the
(16:08):
grass but unfortunately it's gone back in now so I'm just
going to hold tight and see if Ican get it again and hopefully
get a photo. But the photo I'm going for
right now is just this mutual grooming because it's such a
great behaviour shot and the bonds that jackals have are
incredible. OK, morning vent.
I've left the jackals and the mother was sitting on the side
(16:30):
of the road having a rest. Dad's gone off to find some
food, I'm assuming, and the puppies are well on the grass,
so I didn't get to see them again.
Hopefully later on I'll go back when the lights a bit lower,
they might be more active. But I looked up onto the hill
and I saw a couple of vehicles sort of reaching you out, and I
realized that there was some action.
So I've come up here and there was this huge, big, beautiful
male line coming up over the Ridge and through the plains.
(16:53):
So much space for everybody to spread out quite far for him and
get capture him coming down to the hill.
No, no, no, these Cowboys, I'm not even going to call them
guides, have to do this thing where they just rush in front of
the line and they just pull directly in front of him.
It's so that the guests can get a close up action shot as he
approaches the car. I'm all for a close up and I'm
all for having animals being close to animals, but let it
(17:14):
happen naturally. Give them space if they want to
come to you and feel comfortableenough to come past your car or
that's the best feeling when they choose to be in your
presence, not chasing them and rushing around.
And people are not courteous of each other.
I mean, we're all here for the same reason we love wildlife.
Well, I hope so. We all have the right to be here
(17:34):
and people have travelled from all over the world to be here.
Just be courteous of other drivers.
I mean, I'm a little bit different out here.
I'm not a tourist at the moment.I'm working for a camp and
sometimes that's OK. I understand that I'm the least
priority at the sightings and I totally accept that.
But you know, I'm setting up this really amazing shot, a
video of this lion coming down and people can clearly see that
(17:54):
I've got my big lens out and it's heading towards me.
I'm, I'm parked up, well 100 metres away from this animal as
it's walking towards me and people just pull right in front
of me. I've got countless videos of
cars in slow motion pulling up right in front of me, directly
blocking me. Don't know if that's on purpose,
but it's rude, very rude. Just be courteous.
(18:15):
I mean even me and my little Suzuki vehicle, like I'm so
courteous of the other of the other drivers.
Like right now I'm sitting rightback and letting everyone enjoy
the siding and I'll wait for thesomeone to leave and then I'll
go in. But you need to give animal
space. The more space you give an
animal, the more relaxed it willbe and the better chances it's
going to showcase it's wonderfulnatural behaviour and you'll get
the shots and you'll get that amazing encounter.
(18:37):
I can't believe how many times I've sat back from animals at
good distances and they've approached us.
Sometimes you have to be carefulof which animals approaching
you, to be honest. But I've had elephant
encounters, I've had cheater encounters, lion, even serval.
I had a serval next to my car the other day.
It approached our vehicle because we were just sitting
there giving it space. Stop chasing animals and start
(18:59):
giving them a little bit more respect.
And the biggest tip I have for people that are wanting to come
on safari, when you first meet your guide, the start of the
safari, have a really great conversation about what your
expectations are, but also aboutyou that you don't have to be up
close to animals, you don't haveto chase sightings.
Communicate that because unfortunately, I think there's a
(19:19):
mindset where the guides think that that's what we want that we
want to get as close as possibleand we need to change that
mindset and let them know it's OK.
We need to give animals space. It's not their fault.
It's what people maybe programmed them to do in the in
the past. It's it's past experiences, but
we need to change for the futurebecause these animals, we're so
(19:40):
fortunate and lucky that we're allowed to be here viewing
wildlife that could stop. I mean, there's parks in India
where they don't even let tourists go to or parts of the
parks that tourists unlike to goto.
And there's strict times, there's only strict laws and
rules which work well. But we're so lucky here that
we're allowed to do this and be around these animals that that
could change in a in a second ifwe if we continue to keep
(20:04):
harassing them. So I'm back with the Jackals
after leaving the. Lions and I've.
Calmed down, I'm no longer frustrated.
I've been rewarded. The mum's kind of gone and
razzed them up a little bit and I've got a good little glimpse
of them. Not good enough for.
A photo but. I can see them moving about in
the grass. They're so tiny and cute and
it's a free hey, you get to see Jack or puppies this.
(20:26):
Small so I'm. Just going to sit here a bit
longer and hopefully they might come out where she is and I get
a shot. My plan is to stay here as long
as I can while the light's stillpretty good.
I'm hoping that Dad brings Oh yes, Oh my God, I think Dad's
home and he's bought some meat. Oh my God, just was about to say
that and he's turned up with a bit of meat and he's
(20:47):
regurgitating to them. Unbelievable.
Still can't get a great shot because the long grass is a bit
annoying but it is what it is. I can't believe I'm just about
to say to you. I'm waiting for the dad to
return home, hopefully give themsome meat and get them all
active. He's.
Just turned up and now he's grooming.
He's lovely female again. Welcome to the golden hour.
(21:11):
I'm driving away. From the Jackal den.
In the absolute beautiful goldenhour, my instinct is right.
I came back this afternoon. To see if I could get the.
Jackals again and. I sat there patiently for about
an hour and a half. And it was one of the most
wholesome things I've ever. Seen.
I mean, I never realized how. Strong a bond the Jackal pair
(21:31):
have. After watching these two today,
I probably. Spent maybe 3:00 to. 3 1/2 hours
in total watching the Jackal. I've never spent that.
Long before watching Jackal, to be honest.
I never realised how yeah, how strong their bond was and how
much grooming that they do. With one another especially.
The male towards the. Female when I pulled.
Up this afternoon, the female was grooming herself.
And she was, sort of. Grooming her nipples and they
(21:52):
looked red raw, like it looked very painful and now it makes
sense this. Morning I saw the.
Male trying to groom. Her under there and she was
nipping at him and. So the male came back and all
the three puppies came out and. The mum.
Rolled onto her back and she letthem.
Nurse whilst their dad. The male was grooming her and
(22:14):
fussing over her. It was the sweetest thing, but
she's definitely in a bit of. Pain.
She wasn't really. Happy about the pups nursing
from her, they're so cute. Felt very wary.
Of me any time I raised my. Camera or made my seats a bit
squeaky. Any time I tried to position
myself in the seat, they would run back into the grass, but
then they would come back out. And it's interesting because I
(22:35):
had the siding to myself and then.
Slowly, people started. Sort of turning up and wondering
what I was looking at. It's quite sad because once I
see it's Jackal like this drive off.
And then they don't. Mind having a quick look at the
pups if they're? There but the.
Problem is, is that as tourists,I mean, I've been guilty of
this. We make a bit too much noise.
So the Jackal pups were hiding anytime someone pulled up, but
as soon as they left, give it 5 minutes, they'll back out again.
(22:58):
So I think I've got some great footage, couple of good photos.
It was a really beautiful sighting and the the.
Light right now is. So gorgeous and golden I decided
to leave to give her the mum a bit of space.
The pups had gone back to bed. Just a great sighting to have
and Black back Jackal are just such.
Gorgeous. Little canids, I love them.
(23:20):
This might be my final little sharing with you from Alex
Walkers. It's my last full day and I
actually decided not to go on a drive this morning and decided
to go and have coffee with one of my favourite people that work
in the camp, Rebecca. She's one of the chefs, she's in
another camp so I thought I'd godown and see her and say
goodbye. Sad goodbye.
And of course, the moment I stopped trying to find animals,
(23:42):
like I've been getting up at 6:00 every morning and putting
in a great effort. I leave camp at a, you know,
it's 8, it's 8:00. I leave camp and I find 3 lines
on the road. And right now one of them is
just giving me a bit of, I don'tknow how to say it.
This has never happened to me before.
It's playing games with me. So they're 3 sub adults and they
were at a distance and I was photographing them on a termite
(24:03):
mound and then they saw me. And apparently the guys say the
Suzuki just sounds different to them.
It's small vehicle. It's got the sort of sound of a
motorbike. Which a lot of.
Cats are inquisitive about and yeah, the lion started coming
towards me and then I realised just from body language and the
way one of the male sub adults was looking at me, he was
looking to play a bit of cat andmouse.
(24:24):
Me being the mouse, obviously hestarted coming close and I
decided. To I can read behaviour I.
Sound like this cat's going to try to mess with me or
something. So I drove.
Past and then he chased. Me.
He chased me like he was a dog. Running down the street, you
know when sometimes. Dogs chase cars he chased.
Me, I mean the feeling I get, it's all play, right?
(24:45):
But these guys are over a year old and they will mess you up.
I mean, this is like playing with a.
Big, big, big. Cat like big dog.
They're very dog like their behaviour in my opinion.
I drive out the way and I've turned.
Back around to come back down and see if I can get better
photos of them. And he's seen me again.
Now he's like blocking the road,like a little troll, and every
time I go near him. He starts.
(25:07):
Coming towards me, so I'm just sort of about 20 metres away at
the moment. He's just sitting on the road.
I'm gonna wait for him to get off the road and then I'm gonna
go past and then leave them be. The problem for me is.
First of all. My priority is safety.
I don't want him to be in my car.
I've got no doors. So if he decides to like.
Jump up at the car because he's looking at it as like a little
toy, really. I.
(25:28):
Can seriously get hurt and he can get hurt The other thing is
if I. Drive past.
Quickly, I might accidentally hit him or worse.
Worst case scenario. Have a car accident, so there's
all these things that go throughmy head.
He's getting off the road now soI'm going to attempt to drive
past but he is definitely playing games with me.
I mean people that say animals don't have similar mindset to us
(25:48):
humans and they don't want to play games and.
Yeah, it's really. Been fun, but it's also got my
heart racing and this is the first time it's ever happened to
the Lions I wanted to play. Chasing with me.
I don't want to play though. I'm not participating in this
game. If you enjoyed this episode, be
sure to hit the follow button soyou never miss an adventure.
You can keep up with Bobby Joe'swildlife photography and safari
(26:11):
journeys on Instagram and Facebook at Bobby Joe Safaris.
And if you'd love to join one ofher photography tours or
workshops, you can find all the details at bobbyjoesafaris.com.
Welcome to Safari Life with Bobby Jo, where you'll get a
front row seat to some of the most breathtaking wildlife
experiences on the planet. Bobby Jo's a wildlife
photographer and safari guide, leading photography tours to
incredible destinations like theSerengeti, Patagonia, India,
Antarctica and beyond. In this podcast, she shares
(00:21):
expert photography tips, behind the scenes stories, and insights
into Wildlife Conservation. If you'd like to learn more
about her tours and workshops, visit bobbyjoesafaris.com.
Morning honey Badgers. I am back on the Mara Plain,
Mara North plains and looking for some critters.
(00:45):
I currently have zebra in front of me, Topi to my right, an
Impala to my left and a lonely wildebeest.
A resident wildebeest and I think he's got it all sorted.
I mean, if I was a wildebeest, Iwould definitely be a resident.
I would not be crossing the MaraRiver every year risking my
life. It's quite funny here.
The wildebeest actually, they pair up with topi and they hang
(01:08):
around with zebra. They're smart animals.
We don't give them enough credit.
They they know who to stay with to keep safe.
So you always sort of find a lone wildebeest hanging out with
a herd of zebra or with topi. Now Speaking of wildebeest, you
guys might have seen on social media and on the news a massive
blow up at the Mara River on theSerengeti side.
(01:30):
It was all across social media. A well known South African
photographer I think shared a video of a heap of vehicles,
like 50-60 vehicles at crossing #4 which is directly across from
Alex's other camp Lamai, which I've worked at many times.
And it's quite a spectacular crossing point, steep cliffs.
(01:50):
It's better when you're on the Lamai side because you can see
the wildebeest obviously coming towards you.
But it's quite dramatic and it'sone where the wildebeest do
sometimes launch themselves off the cliffs.
Now people really want that shot.
For me that shot is stressful. It's I get high anxiety for
these animals. Some of these animals break
their legs and injure themselves.
(02:10):
And last year I witnessed a heapof wildebeest jumping from
crossing #4 Hyatt was crying whilst I was taking photos, like
little wildebeest calves under that sort of, you know,
conforming to the rest of the herd.
And the pressure that was building up had no choice but to
kind of launch themselves off the side of the Cliff.
And I found it really, really overwhelming and sad and
(02:35):
stressful. And what's not great is when you
get loads of vehicles sort of hovering around crossing.
It's not a great spot on the Cogatende side.
So the Mara River runs through Serengeti, Kenya.
A lot of people think that the wildebeests are crossing from
Tanzania to Kenya, which they are.
But the actual crossing points, the ones that I visit, are
(02:57):
basically from Serengeti to Serengeti.
But you just got crossing the Mara River.
And on the Cogatende side, there's not much room for
vehicles. There's lots of bushes.
It's it's a tricky spot to watcha crossing.
And that's where a big crossing happened only last week.
And vehicles started sort of bunching up together.
(03:20):
And of course, people can't see.And I understand that people
have flown from all around the world, like far corners of the
Earth to come and witness one ofthe most greatest wildlife
spectacles on the planet. And they want to see it.
And if it's happening and they can't see it, they're going to
do whatever they can to see it. And in this photo and this video
footage, people are actually getting out of their.
(03:40):
Vehicles and. They're standing on top of the
vehicle, which is very dangerousand illegal.
And then they're also standing, sitting outside the vehicles on
the edge of the river. There's like about 50-60 people
sitting on the edge of the river.
Now this is this is illegal in aNational Park.
It's pretty much frowned upon everywhere in nature reserves
across the world. And not only are the cars
(04:03):
stressful for the wildebeests, Imean, the wildebeests are about
to go through the most, one of the most stressful moments of
their life. And they're crossing that river.
They're trying not to drown. They're trying not to get
stampeded on. And they're also trying to avoid
crocodiles and big cats that might be wait, waiting for them
on the other side. And then you add the tourist
vehicles to it. And people, people, we, we are
very different. We are quite scary to an animal
(04:23):
when we're out of our car, we'relike a giant baboon, upright
baboon. And that's scary for a lot of
animals, including predators. So the wildebeest, it affected
the crossing, it was horrific. It made me sad, it made me
angry. It should make everybody angry.
But a lot of things have to comeinto place for this to be fixed.
(04:43):
First of all, there needs to be more presence of Rangers
patrolling those areas and sort of trying to control the way
that we're viewing the crossings.
The crossing is there for everybody.
I mean, everybody has the right to be there.
Everyone on the planet that can afford to come to the Serengeti,
they've saved up their entire life.
Everyone has the right to be there, but it needs to be
managed. And the Masai Mara have done it
(05:04):
really well. They were there a few years back
with out of control crossing viewing and they fixed it.
They've hired more Rangers to control the crossings, but also
stricter penalties for guides and for companies.
So everyone needs to abide by the rules.
Each guide needs to be responsible for the way their
guests are viewing wildlife. They are the leaders.
They they're in charge of the sightings when they're with
(05:26):
their guests. So I think whistle blowing on
companies and guides, it's not really that fair.
I think the answer to fixing these out of control crossing
moments is restricting the number of people in the area to
start with. I wouldn't mind paying.
We're already paying an absoluteeye watering amount to be there,
(05:47):
but I wouldn't mind paying a little bit extra for a permit or
I guess limit the number of vehicles coming into the park so
you've got so many permits per day and that way people have to
plan their trip a little bit better.
I'd also have, I guess, the day trippers that come up from the
central Serengeti. I would be forcing them to stay
in the Cogatende Lamai area if they want to view the crossing
(06:08):
and not be able to just drive upfor the day because then that
puts a lot of pressure on their guide to get a crossing and to
see, you know, see the wildebeest.
The fines, heavy fines for drivers and guides that are not
adhering to the rules will help.But also fixing the bridge
between Levine Cogatende that's down, that's been down for
almost 2 years. I think maybe, maybe has been
(06:29):
two years now. That would also fix the
congestion issues on the Cogatende side.
So I'm going to be heading to the Cogatende side in about 2
1/2 weeks with my own honey badges.
I've already had this conversation with them.
I shared the photos and the video footage of what happened
and I wanted to make it really clear that Pharos and I would
never put our guests in a situation where we would get
(06:50):
them out of the car or we will avoid highly congested areas.
It might mean we don't see a crossing, but that's OK.
Wildlife comes first. The biggest thing I think that
can help with congested wildlifesightings and people's mindset
is bring some good camera gear. Stop relying on your phones.
(07:11):
Phones are amazing for video footage but bring some popular
camera gear and you don't have to be up close.
You can sit back and watch wildlife.
When you sit back and you're nottrying to get an extreme close
up of an animal, you actually see so much more natural
behaviour. It's a it's a better experience.
So invest in that camera lens. I know you don't want to bring
(07:32):
it with you on the planes but trust me, you won't regret it,
especially if you book yourself on a photographic safari.
It's not a shameless plug, you could go of anyone you'd like.
But learn. Learn photography and you can
sit back, come with the mindset of just viewing it with your
eyes or with binoculars. It doesn't have to be plastered
all over social media and Instagram for it to be valid and
(07:53):
to be proof that it happened. And now that's very rich coming
from me who shares a lot on social media.
But I'm also running a business and trying to advertise my
business. If I didn't have a business I
might post the odd photo here and there, but I think social
media has a lot to answer for when it comes to viewing
wildlife. Everybody wants to see a
crossing. Most people think a crossing is
(08:15):
the migration and that that is the reason that their trip's
successful. If it's a marker of success, if
they've seen a crossing, it should be seen the actual
wildebeest. When you get amongst the
wildebeest, you know I'm talkingthousands of animals and you're
driving amongst the wildebeest. It is a mind blowing experience.
The crossing's actually quite stressful for people and
(08:35):
animals. The guides and I often refer to
the crossing as the Great Migration of Land Cruisers and
we actually act like wildebeest.If you watch the vehicles at a
crossing, me included and Ferrell's included, we act like
wildebeest. We go forward, we go back, we
follow the crowds. Is it happening?
It's quite funny. We look like the wildebeest.
I think you need to do your research when you're coming to
(08:59):
these places that are renowned for being a little bit busy and
highly excitable sightings like a crossing.
If you're coming to East Africa and you really want to come to
the Northern Serengeti for a chance to view a crossing, we
want to come to the Southern Serengeti in the earlier part of
the year, January, February, March.
Do your research, go with ethical guides.
(09:19):
All you have to do is look at their social media, see what
kind of content they're posting,look at reviews, ask people like
myself. I'm more than happy to give
advice about reputable companies, good guides, because
it makes a difference. You want someone that cares
about wildlife first, wildlife safety and people safety.
Is that the priority for them? Because at the end of the day,
(09:41):
these animals are living their lives out here.
They're under great stress. They're trying to survive,
they're trying to reproduce. And we do add an extra stress to
it. And I'm not going to lie,
tourism is affecting wildlife, especially cheetah.
We're speaking to a cheetah researcher the other day, and
she's saying that vehicles that are getting too close to cheetah
when they're trying to hunt, it's stopping them from hunting.
(10:04):
And so they're starving. And there's a massive decline in
cheetah numbers in the great Amara area.
They're down to about 6060 cheetah.
So if you want to come here and experience this, I mean, it's my
life. I love it.
Do your research, look for greatcompanies, great guides, ask
(10:24):
around, talk to people. Invest in a good camera.
It doesn't have to be a massive beast like mine, just something
that can get you in a bit closerwhilst you sit back a bit.
Go ahead. Some cars where you saw the
other lioness, the other. Day.
Sorry, which lioness? Whereabouts.
(10:44):
Follow the road you remember, where you saw the lioness.
The other day. OK, I'm headed that way now.
Thank you. OK, Just that was Dennis on the
radio. He God loving, he loves to radio
me and let me know where the action's happening.
And I'm still a bit confused about where that is.
He said where the lioness was the other day, and there's been
(11:05):
a lot of lionesses. So I've just seen lots of cars.
So there's a big sighting happening.
Guys, I'll be back. I am full driving through mud
right now. Oh my word, I have really picked
up some forward driving skills whilst I've been in the Mara N
it's rained every day since I'vebeen here and the Suzuki's quite
(11:28):
lightweight, which is good, but I mean I'm not that much of an
experienced 4 wheel drive chick.I do a little bit at home but
it's been really great for my skill set.
I've learnt that these little Suzuki's are amazing for getting
through mud, not so good for getting over the rocks though.
Not enough height. It's actually inspired me to
maybe get more into four wheel driving when I get home.
(11:51):
I'm nervous about trashing my Mitsubishi Triton, but you know
what, it's meant to be trashed isn't it?
It's meant to be a four wheel drive.
So look out Dubbo when I get home.
I'm probably full of shit. Actually, I'm probably not going
to do anything, so I just spent some time with the oldest
lioness of the Syrian pride and the three sub adults.
They killed a zebra last night, so they're just for the
(12:12):
finishing. That off I've just.
Got pushed off to sighting so. There's very strict rules.
Here in the Mahra N Conservancy that if there's more than five
vehicles, you have to wait your turn.
Sometimes what happens is. I was kind of.
Last on the scene, but then somemore vehicles turned up.
So the rule. Is is that once that fifth
(12:34):
vehicle turns up, the last person has to go.
So sometimes it actually pays toget there a bit later because
you can stay longer. But I've I've.
Only got maybe 5-5 to 10 minutesin, but that's fine.
The rules are in place for a reason and that's to help not
put pressure on animals. I'm just sort of sitting on the
outside now waiting for some of the vehicles to go so I can go
back in there and get some photos.
(12:55):
So I'm a bit of an outsider here.
I'm a Mazungu female. Female Mazungu that's not in
her. Territory.
So even though I'm quite polite and move.
Out of the siding and let peoplein.
They don't always return the favour, so I am not being let
back into this site and the action's happening and it's very
frustrating because. The lion Cubs are.
(13:16):
Playing and I'm still sitting onthe outside.
Waiting to get in. I guess that's just the way the
cookie crumbles. I'm not.
Going to get upset about it. I might just go.
Off and find my own thing or maybe go for a bit of.
Breakfast. That's sort of one of the many.
You know, just like any workplace, there's.
Little nuances and little hierarchy.
You know, hierarchy. Things happening in a workplace
(13:36):
and it also. Happens in the Safari world
anyways. I'll let them.
Good morning, honey Badges. I'm back out in the Suzuki,
starting her up and I have just come across a hippo.
It's 6:37 in the morning, the sun has not come up yet.
But the hippos, most people don't realize this, but they
(13:59):
obviously living in the water, in the river system, in the Mai
River here and also other littledams and small water holes.
That's mostly the males that have been kicked out of the the
pod. Poor old males.
They, they get kicked out by some new male and they go and
live a little bit of a lonely life and a small body of water
on the plains. But I've just seen a big female
(14:19):
coming home and she's what they do is they tend to go grazing
lots of different types of grasses.
Sometimes they eat seed pods when there's not really good
grass, but they go out into the plains and sometimes they can
walk up to I believe 20 kilometres in search of good
graze. Now there's a huge escarpment
here that is sort of above. The Mara North.
(14:40):
And I went for a walk up there last time I was here and found
hippo poop all at the top. So there's hippos there.
Don't let their bodies fool you,they're quite athletic, even
with those tiny little legs. They can walk all the way up to
the top of your scarf, which is very steep.
So I've just spotted this one coming home.
And it's looked at me really nervous and it's sort of
gingerly gone across the road and looked back at me.
(15:02):
And the best way I can describe what a hippo looks like when you
bust it, you know, you, you're busted at coming home from the
night. It's like the walk of shame,
right? We've all been there, high heels
in hand, walking down the road, still in your your outfit from
the night before. I know I've been there many
times, especially after zoo functions.
Walking down Bradley's Head Rd. in Mossman looking glamorous.
(15:26):
So hippos with high heels cominghome for the night.
Walk of shame. Guys, I've just found tiny
Jackal puppies. I'm going to see if I can get a
bit closer. They're so cute.
They're the tiniest little. Puppies, they're so.
Cute. They're shivering.
So I've just found a Jackal family, this black back Jackal,
(15:46):
and the male is grooming the female just on the side of the
road here. He's just really grooming her
and really fussing her. It's quite beautiful.
She's really enjoying it now, the mutual grooming.
So she's grooming him. The light's quite low, so I'm
using pretty high ISO. I'm about 1000 ISO 2.85
hundredths of a second and a tiny tiny puppy came out of the
(16:08):
grass but unfortunately it's gone back in now so I'm just
going to hold tight and see if Ican get it again and hopefully
get a photo. But the photo I'm going for
right now is just this mutual grooming because it's such a
great behaviour shot and the bonds that jackals have are
incredible. OK, morning vent.
I've left the jackals and the mother was sitting on the side
(16:30):
of the road having a rest. Dad's gone off to find some
food, I'm assuming, and the puppies are well on the grass,
so I didn't get to see them again.
Hopefully later on I'll go back when the lights a bit lower,
they might be more active. But I looked up onto the hill
and I saw a couple of vehicles sort of reaching you out, and I
realized that there was some action.
So I've come up here and there was this huge, big, beautiful
male line coming up over the Ridge and through the plains.
(16:53):
So much space for everybody to spread out quite far for him and
get capture him coming down to the hill.
No, no, no, these Cowboys, I'm not even going to call them
guides, have to do this thing where they just rush in front of
the line and they just pull directly in front of him.
It's so that the guests can get a close up action shot as he
approaches the car. I'm all for a close up and I'm
all for having animals being close to animals, but let it
(17:14):
happen naturally. Give them space if they want to
come to you and feel comfortableenough to come past your car or
that's the best feeling when they choose to be in your
presence, not chasing them and rushing around.
And people are not courteous of each other.
I mean, we're all here for the same reason we love wildlife.
Well, I hope so. We all have the right to be here
(17:34):
and people have travelled from all over the world to be here.
Just be courteous of other drivers.
I mean, I'm a little bit different out here.
I'm not a tourist at the moment.I'm working for a camp and
sometimes that's OK. I understand that I'm the least
priority at the sightings and I totally accept that.
But you know, I'm setting up this really amazing shot, a
video of this lion coming down and people can clearly see that
(17:54):
I've got my big lens out and it's heading towards me.
I'm, I'm parked up, well 100 metres away from this animal as
it's walking towards me and people just pull right in front
of me. I've got countless videos of
cars in slow motion pulling up right in front of me, directly
blocking me. Don't know if that's on purpose,
but it's rude, very rude. Just be courteous.
(18:15):
I mean even me and my little Suzuki vehicle, like I'm so
courteous of the other of the other drivers.
Like right now I'm sitting rightback and letting everyone enjoy
the siding and I'll wait for thesomeone to leave and then I'll
go in. But you need to give animal
space. The more space you give an
animal, the more relaxed it willbe and the better chances it's
going to showcase it's wonderfulnatural behaviour and you'll get
the shots and you'll get that amazing encounter.
(18:37):
I can't believe how many times I've sat back from animals at
good distances and they've approached us.
Sometimes you have to be carefulof which animals approaching
you, to be honest. But I've had elephant
encounters, I've had cheater encounters, lion, even serval.
I had a serval next to my car the other day.
It approached our vehicle because we were just sitting
there giving it space. Stop chasing animals and start
(18:59):
giving them a little bit more respect.
And the biggest tip I have for people that are wanting to come
on safari, when you first meet your guide, the start of the
safari, have a really great conversation about what your
expectations are, but also aboutyou that you don't have to be up
close to animals, you don't haveto chase sightings.
Communicate that because unfortunately, I think there's a
(19:19):
mindset where the guides think that that's what we want that we
want to get as close as possibleand we need to change that
mindset and let them know it's OK.
We need to give animals space. It's not their fault.
It's what people maybe programmed them to do in the in
the past. It's it's past experiences, but
we need to change for the futurebecause these animals, we're so
(19:40):
fortunate and lucky that we're allowed to be here viewing
wildlife that could stop. I mean, there's parks in India
where they don't even let tourists go to or parts of the
parks that tourists unlike to goto.
And there's strict times, there's only strict laws and
rules which work well. But we're so lucky here that
we're allowed to do this and be around these animals that that
could change in a in a second ifwe if we continue to keep
(20:04):
harassing them. So I'm back with the Jackals
after leaving the. Lions and I've.
Calmed down, I'm no longer frustrated.
I've been rewarded. The mum's kind of gone and
razzed them up a little bit and I've got a good little glimpse
of them. Not good enough for.
A photo but. I can see them moving about in
the grass. They're so tiny and cute and
it's a free hey, you get to see Jack or puppies this.
(20:26):
Small so I'm. Just going to sit here a bit
longer and hopefully they might come out where she is and I get
a shot. My plan is to stay here as long
as I can while the light's stillpretty good.
I'm hoping that Dad brings Oh yes, Oh my God, I think Dad's
home and he's bought some meat. Oh my God, just was about to say
that and he's turned up with a bit of meat and he's
(20:47):
regurgitating to them. Unbelievable.
Still can't get a great shot because the long grass is a bit
annoying but it is what it is. I can't believe I'm just about
to say to you. I'm waiting for the dad to
return home, hopefully give themsome meat and get them all
active. He's.
Just turned up and now he's grooming.
He's lovely female again. Welcome to the golden hour.
(21:11):
I'm driving away. From the Jackal den.
In the absolute beautiful goldenhour, my instinct is right.
I came back this afternoon. To see if I could get the.
Jackals again and. I sat there patiently for about
an hour and a half. And it was one of the most
wholesome things I've ever. Seen.
I mean, I never realized how. Strong a bond the Jackal pair
(21:31):
have. After watching these two today,
I probably. Spent maybe 3:00 to. 3 1/2 hours
in total watching the Jackal. I've never spent that.
Long before watching Jackal, to be honest.
I never realised how yeah, how strong their bond was and how
much grooming that they do. With one another especially.
The male towards the. Female when I pulled.
Up this afternoon, the female was grooming herself.
And she was, sort of. Grooming her nipples and they
(21:52):
looked red raw, like it looked very painful and now it makes
sense this. Morning I saw the.
Male trying to groom. Her under there and she was
nipping at him and. So the male came back and all
the three puppies came out and. The mum.
Rolled onto her back and she letthem.
Nurse whilst their dad. The male was grooming her and
(22:14):
fussing over her. It was the sweetest thing, but
she's definitely in a bit of. Pain.
She wasn't really. Happy about the pups nursing
from her, they're so cute. Felt very wary.
Of me any time I raised my. Camera or made my seats a bit
squeaky. Any time I tried to position
myself in the seat, they would run back into the grass, but
then they would come back out. And it's interesting because I
(22:35):
had the siding to myself and then.
Slowly, people started. Sort of turning up and wondering
what I was looking at. It's quite sad because once I
see it's Jackal like this drive off.
And then they don't. Mind having a quick look at the
pups if they're? There but the.
Problem is, is that as tourists,I mean, I've been guilty of
this. We make a bit too much noise.
So the Jackal pups were hiding anytime someone pulled up, but
as soon as they left, give it 5 minutes, they'll back out again.
(22:58):
So I think I've got some great footage, couple of good photos.
It was a really beautiful sighting and the the.
Light right now is. So gorgeous and golden I decided
to leave to give her the mum a bit of space.
The pups had gone back to bed. Just a great sighting to have
and Black back Jackal are just such.
Gorgeous. Little canids, I love them.
(23:20):
This might be my final little sharing with you from Alex
Walkers. It's my last full day and I
actually decided not to go on a drive this morning and decided
to go and have coffee with one of my favourite people that work
in the camp, Rebecca. She's one of the chefs, she's in
another camp so I thought I'd godown and see her and say
goodbye. Sad goodbye.
And of course, the moment I stopped trying to find animals,
(23:42):
like I've been getting up at 6:00 every morning and putting
in a great effort. I leave camp at a, you know,
it's 8, it's 8:00. I leave camp and I find 3 lines
on the road. And right now one of them is
just giving me a bit of, I don'tknow how to say it.
This has never happened to me before.
It's playing games with me. So they're 3 sub adults and they
were at a distance and I was photographing them on a termite
(24:03):
mound and then they saw me. And apparently the guys say the
Suzuki just sounds different to them.
It's small vehicle. It's got the sort of sound of a
motorbike. Which a lot of.
Cats are inquisitive about and yeah, the lion started coming
towards me and then I realised just from body language and the
way one of the male sub adults was looking at me, he was
looking to play a bit of cat andmouse.
(24:24):
Me being the mouse, obviously hestarted coming close and I
decided. To I can read behaviour I.
Sound like this cat's going to try to mess with me or
something. So I drove.
Past and then he chased. Me.
He chased me like he was a dog. Running down the street, you
know when sometimes. Dogs chase cars he chased.
Me, I mean the feeling I get, it's all play, right?
(24:45):
But these guys are over a year old and they will mess you up.
I mean, this is like playing with a.
Big, big, big. Cat like big dog.
They're very dog like their behaviour in my opinion.
I drive out the way and I've turned.
Back around to come back down and see if I can get better
photos of them. And he's seen me again.
Now he's like blocking the road,like a little troll, and every
time I go near him. He starts.
(25:07):
Coming towards me, so I'm just sort of about 20 metres away at
the moment. He's just sitting on the road.
I'm gonna wait for him to get off the road and then I'm gonna
go past and then leave them be. The problem for me is.
First of all. My priority is safety.
I don't want him to be in my car.
I've got no doors. So if he decides to like.
Jump up at the car because he's looking at it as like a little
toy, really. I.
(25:28):
Can seriously get hurt and he can get hurt The other thing is
if I. Drive past.
Quickly, I might accidentally hit him or worse.
Worst case scenario. Have a car accident, so there's
all these things that go throughmy head.
He's getting off the road now soI'm going to attempt to drive
past but he is definitely playing games with me.
I mean people that say animals don't have similar mindset to us
(25:48):
humans and they don't want to play games and.
Yeah, it's really. Been fun, but it's also got my
heart racing and this is the first time it's ever happened to
the Lions I wanted to play. Chasing with me.
I don't want to play though. I'm not participating in this
game. If you enjoyed this episode, be
sure to hit the follow button soyou never miss an adventure.
You can keep up with Bobby Joe'swildlife photography and safari
(26:11):
journeys on Instagram and Facebook at Bobby Joe Safaris.
And if you'd love to join one ofher photography tours or
workshops, you can find all the details at bobbyjoesafaris.com.
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