May 20, 2025 • 36 mins
Fear striking right as you're about to send that important email? That lunch invitation sitting in your drafts for days? You're not alone. We all avoid things that make us uncomfortable, but what if that avoidance is precisely what's keeping you from the life you truly want?
Join David and Hannah Sage as they dive deep into the psychology of avoidance – that sneaky habit of sidestepping discomfort, anxiety, or fear. Drawing from the groundbreaking work of Dr. Luana Marques, Harvard Medical School professor and anxiety expert, this episode reveals the paradoxical truth: the more we avoid what makes us anxious, the bigger that anxiety grows.
The science is fascinating but also empowering. Your brain creates a feedback loop where momentary relief from avoiding something reinforces both the anxiety and the avoidance itself. But there's a way out. Through Dr. Marques' three-step Bold Move framework – Detect, Disrupt, and Reframe to take action – you'll learn how to recognize your avoidance patterns, challenge unhelpful thoughts, and take meaningful steps toward what matters most to you.
We share practical techniques like the 5-Second Rule for immediate action, the 2-Minute Rule for quick tasks, and the powerful perspective shift of reframing physical sensations of nervousness as excitement (they're physiologically identical!). Most importantly, you'll discover that courage isn't about eliminating fear but about feeling it and moving forward anyway.
Whether you're avoiding career advancement, difficult conversations, or personal challenges, this episode offers science-backed strategies to break free from the avoidance cycle and start living boldly. As Dr. Marques wisely says, "Be the water, not the rock." Subscribe now and share this episode with someone who needs to hear this message – together, we can turn avoidance into action.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Sage Solutions Podcast, where we talk
about all things personalgrowth, personal development and
becoming your best self.
My name is David Sage and I'm aself-worth and confidence coach
with Sage Coaching Solutions.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hey guys, hannah Sage here David's wife coaching
solutions.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Hey guys, hannah Sage here, david's wife Hannah, is
also one of our reoccurringco-hosts and will be joining me
for today's topic.
Today, we're tackling achallenge that every single one
of us faces at some pointAvoidance, that sneaky habit of
sidestepping things, Things thatmake us uncomfortable, anxious
or even a little bit scared.
It might feel like a safestrategy in the moment, but what
(00:49):
if it's actually the main thingholding us back from the life
we truly want?
We're going to dive into thescience behind why we avoid it
and, more importantly, we'll beunlocking some powerful,
actionable strategies to help usstop avoiding and start living
Before we get into it.
(01:10):
Our goal with this podcast isto share free, helpful tools
with you and anyone you know whois looking to improve their
life so don't avoid it.
Their life, so don't avoid it.
Take action, subscribe andshare this podcast with them.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'm excited about this topic today because it's
something that everyone,including myself, deals with on
a day-to-day basis, and I thinka lot of times the cause for
avoidance is a little bit deeper.
It doesn't mean that you'reincompetent or lazy.
I think there's some underlyingroots to avoidance and I'm
excited to dig a little deeper.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
And that's exactly what we're planning on doing.
But to guide us, we'll befocusing on the incredible
insights and methods of Dr LuanaMarquis, an associate professor
at Harvard Medical School andan expert in helping people
overcome anxiety and avoidance.
Her work is all about makingbold moves and by the end of
(02:13):
this episode, we'll have somereal down-to-earth steps that we
can all start using immediately.
So what exactly is avoidance?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines avoidance as
an act or practice of avoidingor withdrawing from something.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I want to make a small distinction here.
In many different situationsprocrastination and avoidance
can be basically the same thing,but avoidance is a little bit
broader than procrastination.
Procrastination, at least inintent, is the delaying of
(02:53):
something with the intent tostill do it later, but to just
put it off for now or avoid itfor now.
Procrastination is like a typeof avoidance, but avoidance as a
broader category or a biggertopic can include avoiding
something altogether, decidingthat something is too painful,
(03:13):
too uncomfortable, too scary ortoo complicated to even attempt.
So I'm just going to avoid itgoing to avoid it.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So earlier today, when we were joking around about
avoiding recording theavoidance podcast, we were
actually just procrastinatingrecording the avoidance podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Which is still a type of avoidance.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
But here we are.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And avoidance also has many other contexts and it's
often used to describe like theavoidant attachment style or an
avoidant personality type.
That's not really what we'retalking about here today.
This is where I'm trying tosuss out some of the shades of
gray ahead of time so that Iavoid some confusion.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
But I also think it's important to note that there
are some emotional mentalbehaviors that kind of go hand
in hand with avoidance.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
And we will be thoroughly diving into those.
But first I really want tostart with what exactly is
avoidance in the context ofpersonal development?
It's more than just putting offyour chores, though that can be
a form of it too.
Like we just said, at its core,avoidance is a behavior pattern
aimed at preventing or escapingunpleasant thoughts, feelings,
(04:32):
sensations or situations.
It's that internal alarm systemscreaming danger, discomfort,
ahead, retreat.
But why do we do it?
Well, our brains are wired forsurvival.
If you haven't heard me saythis in a previous episode,
you're going to keep hearing mesay this.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And again, and again, and again.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Because it's not going to change.
Our brains are wired forsurvival because, if they
weren't, we wouldn't exist.
They had to be in order for usto survive, to get to this cushy
world that we live in today.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Throwback to an earlier episode where I probably
slightly enraged Anna and Davidwith saying we needed it to run
away from the dinosaurs.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Hey, it was a great visual example.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Dinosaurs and humans weren't really around at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
You knew that too.
You were just doing hyperbolein the moment.
Historically, avoiding threatskept us alive, but these modern
day threats are often much morepsychological than objectively
real the fear of failure, thefear of rejection of judgment,
or simply the discomfort ofuncertainty.
(05:49):
When we're faced with a taskthat triggers these feelings,
like a tough conversation,applying for a new job or even
going to a social event, thatold part of our brain kicks in
and says nope, let's scrollthrough social media instead.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Because in the moment it feels good to kind of avoid
that conflict.
I'm trying not to use the wordavoid much, but it's hard to not
use the word avoid when we'retalking about avoidance.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Who would have thought?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
But anyways, it feels good in the moment to distract
ourselves from facing thatobstacle or what we think is a
big thing, and a lot of timesit's not nearly as scary as
we've made it out to be in ourbrains.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Right, because our thoughts, while they can be
objective, are often much moresubjective than reality, and
that means our fears and the waythat we build them up in our
head can also be subjective.
They are directly changed orinfluenced by our perspective of
(06:56):
reality, and that also meansthat they can be reframed to be
better or worse than thesituation actually is.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
And the longer we put it off, the bigger it becomes.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Oh, now you're getting into the meat and
potatoes of where this is going,but before we get too ahead of
ourselves.
At its core, avoidance is yourbrain's attempt to prevent
discomfort, and the science hereis fascinating, though a bit
paradoxical.
When we avoid something thatmakes us anxious, we get
(07:30):
immediate relief Ah, crisisaverted.
But here's the catch that minorimmediate relief reinforces the
anxiety and reinforces theavoidance.
The anxiety and reinforces theavoidance.
See, anxiety often makes peoplewant to avoid whatever is
(07:50):
causing their anxiety.
But the kicker is that there'sa negative feedback loop.
Avoidance is one of the biggestdrivers of anxiety.
When you're avoiding the thingthat gives you anxiety, you are
removing yourself further fromthat thing, which allows your
brain to build it up to be abigger deal than it is because
(08:13):
you're further removed from it.
You've also subconsciouslyreinforced that the thing must
have been bad because that's whyyou avoided it.
Must have been bad because it'swhy you avoided it.
And the more times you avoidwhat makes you anxious, the
bigger the threat your brainbuilds it up to be.
And subconsciously you reaffirmthat the reason that you
(08:36):
avoided it was because it was abig threat.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Breeding anxiety, insecurities and self-doubt.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And this cycle keeps continuing over and over, as
your anxiety around it buildsand builds and your avoidance
keeps happening until it caneven cause, at its extreme,
crippling disorders likeagoraphobia or the fear of
leaving your house, as well asother phobias.
(09:04):
As research in cognitivebehavioral psychology
consistently shows, by avoidingthe feared situation, we never
learn that we can cope with it,or that the catastrophic outcome
we imagine probably won'thappen, or that the catastrophic
outcome we imagine probablywon't happen.
In fact, studies like thoseexploring the generalization of
(09:26):
fear suggest that relentlessavoidance can make our fears
bigger and even spread to other,unrelated areas of our lives.
We essentially teach our brainthat the only way to handle
discomfort is to run from it,but, as we'll learn, there's a
much more empowering way.
This brings us to Dr Marquise.
(09:46):
She's a leading voice in thisfield.
As an associate professor ofpsychiatry at Harvard Medical
School, president of the Anxietyand Depression Association of
America and author of the bookBold Move a three-step plan to
transform anxiety into power,she's dedicated her career to
understanding and treatinganxiety and avoidance.
(10:10):
Her core philosophy isrefreshingly direct.
She emphasizes that, while lifeinevitably brings challenges
and discomfort, it's ouravoidance of this discomfort
that truly limits us.
I love this quote from herAvoidance is the enemy.
Be the water, not the rock.
(10:31):
Flow past the obstacles youface and never stop moving
towards your values.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
I love that.
I feel like that kind of paintsa picture in my head that I
could actually pull up when I'mdebating.
Being a rock Kind of forces meto flow with the water, and it
just shows how easily a mentalshift can change your
perspective.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I couldn't agree more .
Be the water.
I couldn't agree more.
Be the water, not the rock.
Let's just think about that fora moment.
It's the flexibility,resilience and forward movement,
even when things are tough.
Her approach isn't abouteliminating fear or anxiety
altogether, because, let's faceit, those are human emotions.
(11:21):
They're not going anywhere.
Instead, it's about changingour relationship with those
feelings so they no longer callthe shots.
It's about learning to makewhat she calls bold moves,
actions aligned with what trulymatters to us, even when it
feels hard.
Now, discomfort can come in anumber of different forms.
(11:42):
There's just basic discomfort,where you might want to avoid
doing something just because youthink it's going to be hard or
tedious or annoying or take alot of effort, or you don't feel
like it in the moment.
Then there's moreemotion-driven discomfort, like
feeling anxiety, or getting to aplace of overwhelm, or maybe
(12:05):
feeling fear.
These emotional states cancause a level of discomfort that
makes you want to avoid it,whatever it may be.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
We've actually covered those three exact topics
in previous episodes overcomingoverwhelm, facing fear with
courage and handling anxiety.
So if you haven't heard thoseepisodes, I highly encourage you
to go back, find those episodesand give them a listen.
It'll be well worth it.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And while we're bringing that up, I want to
touch on the fact that DrMarquis talks about being bold,
as facing fear and overcomingchallenges We've talked about
this in a couple differentepisodes, like the episode on
courage.
Facing fear, feeling the fearand doing it anyways is being
(12:59):
courageous, on letting obstaclesmotivate you with stoicism and
cultivating intrinsic motivationby reframing the way that we
think about effort and challenge, turning effort into energy.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Which was our most recent episode.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
That it was Getting back to our types of discomfort.
We have our third one.
A little less talked aboutwould be the discomfort of
uncertainty, of how, ofcomplexity.
As Tony Robbins says,complexity is the enemy of
execution.
He also says never let thetyranny of how stop you from
(13:44):
taking action.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
So you mean I don't need a 12-step plan to get to
the grocery store?
I hate grocery shopping, by theway.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, that's why I do most of the grocery shopping.
And, to answer your question,no, you don't need a 12-step
plan to go to the grocery store.
Most things don't need a12-step plan.
Period, kiss, k-i-s.
Keep it simple, small, simplesteps, one at a time.
(14:13):
Don't overcomplicate it.
Paralysis by analysis isbasically avoiding taking action
, because the discomfort of howor how to do it perfect is
enough to stop you from takingaction, which is why action
equals success and outcomes arejust learning.
(14:33):
There's no point in figuringout how to do it if it's going
to stop you from doing it.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
So how do we learn how to be water and not the rock
?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Well, in order to actually do this, dr Marquis
offers a very practical,science-backed framework Before
we dive into the specific threesteps for making these bold
moves.
Making these bold moves, it'shelpful to understand a concept.
She often talks about the T-E-Bcycle that stands for thoughts,
(15:06):
emotions and behaviors.
So imagine this you have athought.
If I speak up in this meeting,I'll probably say something
stupid and embarrass myself.
That thought then triggers anemotion, anxiety, maybe a knot
in your stomach, a racing heart,and that emotion then drives
(15:29):
our behavior.
You stay silent, avoid eyecontact, continue to feel
anxious and maybe even skip themeeting if you can.
That's avoidance in action,fueled by the thought and the
emotion.
The TEB cycle shows how thesethree elements are constantly
(15:50):
interacting and influencing eachother, often keeping us stuck
in unhelpful patterns.
The good news is, byunderstanding this cycle, we can
find points to intervene, andthat's where her three-step bold
move framework comes in.
So if our thoughts often createour emotions and then our
(16:11):
emotions lead to our behaviorsT-E-B and in this case avoidance
is the behavior that we'retrying to change then a
different set of thoughts thatlead to a different set of
emotions could lead to adifferent behavior like taking
action.
So her three-step process goeslike this Detect, disrupt and
(16:38):
reframe to take action.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Whoa hold on there, buddy, Can you repeat those
three for me?
Speaker 1 (16:49):
What am I?
A horse.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
But in all seriousness, can we repeat those
three things just in caseanybody's trying to write
something down or to really hitit home?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Detect, disrupt and reframe to take action.
Step one detect.
This first step is all aboutawareness.
You can't change what you don'tacknowledge.
Recognize your avoidancepatterns.
How does avoidance show up foryou?
(17:30):
Is it procrastination onimportant tasks, avoiding social
situations, numbing out with TVor scrolling on social media?
Maybe it's subtler, likeconstantly seeking reassurance
or over-preparing to an extremedegree to avoid any chance of
failure or to not start in thefirst place?
Start to notice these patternswithout judgment.
(17:52):
Just observe.
Identify the thinking traps.
What are the specific thoughtsthat trigger your avoidance?
She draws from cognitivebehavioral therapy to highlight
common traps likecatastrophizing If I try this,
it will be a complete disaster.
All or nothing thinking If Ican't do it perfectly, there's
(18:16):
no point in doing it at all.
Mind reading Everyone willthink I'm incompetent.
And we've actually talked aboutcures for all three of these
thought patterns as well.
We have a whole episode oncatastrophizing.
As far as all or nothingthinking handling, that is one
of my core fundamentals Thinkingin shades of gray or the longer
(18:39):
version, lifelong learning inshades of gray and the longer
version.
Lifelong learning in shades ofgray and mind reading is really
just making assumptions ortelling yourself stories about
how others feel instead ofactually knowing.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I've been guilty of every single one of those at
different points in life.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
And who hasn't, I sure as hell have?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I tend to be a bit of an extremist when it comes to
things, and then that translatesinto black or white, very all
or nothing thinking.
That comes the most natural tome and my personality,
unfortunately.
So that's something that I'vehad to work hard at is
maintaining thinking in shadesof gray.
(19:19):
Work hard at is maintainingthinking in shades of gray.
Speaking of shades of gray, myrelationship with this topic
isn't so black and white.
As you guys know, I've discussedin past episodes about how I
struggle with anxiety, and I'vealso talked about how I'm pretty
good at taking action andgetting things done when they
need to be done, but I'm alsofairly good at avoiding getting
(19:43):
something done because of myanxiety.
It's a weird extreme between thetwo Because on one hand, yes,
I'm getting things done, but onthe other hand, sometimes I just
want to hide in a hole.
It generally depends on thetopic and if it's a situation
that I already feel insecure in.
So, like I would say, whenDavid and I first started dating
(20:05):
, I was pretty insecure on theway that I handled my finances,
so I avoided talking aboutlooking at figuring out how my
finances could be better.
That was until I had the helpfrom David, who separated that
insecurity for me and made merealize that it's not something
to be insecure about, justsomething to improve and work
(20:28):
through.
On the other hand, when itcomes to manual labor, such as
yard work, cooking, cleaning,building something, putting
together Ikea furniture, I'm allin and I'll get it done very
quickly.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Like shockingly quickly and efficiently and
almost annoyingly good.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I'm very aggressive about the things I like to do,
but the things that I feeluncomfortable in or insecure
about, my natural tendency, atleast when anxiety is involved,
is to avoid doing that thing.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
This is a really good example because it shows how we
as human beings are complex.
We are shades of gray, we arenot just good at one thing and
just bad at another thing.
Many different parts of ourpersonality and situation and
(21:24):
feelings and emotions all playtogether to form who we are and
the actions that we take or thethoughts that we have in any
given situation.
But to get back to the firststep of her detect, disrupt and
reframe to take action.
When we are detecting, we aresimply naming these thoughts as
(21:47):
thinking traps and when we do so, it can start to loosen their
grip.
Dr Marquis wisely says yourthoughts are real.
It Dr Marquis wisely says yourthoughts are real.
But that doesn't mean thatthey're true.
Let's take an example.
Say you avoid a networkingevent, detecting the pattern you
(22:08):
notice, you always find anexcuse not to go.
Or if you do go, you hover bythe food table and leave early,
doing little to no actualnetworking.
Detecting these thinking traps.
Your underlying thoughts mightbe I'm awkward, I'll have
nothing to say, no one will wantto talk to me, I'll just
embarrass myself.
So that's where we move intostep two disrupt.
(22:33):
Once you've detected theavoidance and the thoughts
fueling it.
The next step is to create apause and challenge the
automatic pilot.
Challenge those unhelpfulthoughts.
Become your own thought lawyer.
Ask yourself is this thought100% true?
Where's the evidence for it?
(22:55):
Where's the evidence against it?
What's a more balanced shadesof gray or realistic way of
looking at this?
What would I tell a friend whohad this thought?
We're taking control of ourperspective of reality by
utilizing some of the mostimportant things that are in our
locus of control our thoughtsand our perspectives.
(23:17):
Next, we connect with our corevalues.
These are what are mostimportant to us.
What are the most importantvalues in your life?
If you had to boil it down to atop five, a top three, what are
the values that you live yourlife by?
This is crucial.
She emphasizes that bold movesare values-driven.
(23:40):
Ask yourself what truly mattersto me in my career, in my
relationships, for my personalgrowth, for who I am and for my
morality.
Example, if you valueconnection, growth or
(24:00):
contribution in your career, howis avoiding networking events
getting in the way of thosevalues?
Focusing on your values givesyou a why that can be stronger
than your fear.
It shifts the motivation from Ihave to do this scary thing to.
I choose to do this because italigns with what's important to
me.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Like becoming a doer.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
So to get back to this networking example, the
disrupting thought.
Okay, I might feel awkwardinitially, that's true, but have
I always had nothing to say?
Are there times I've had goodconversations?
Maybe not everyone will want totalk to me, I've had good
conversations.
Maybe not everyone will want totalk to me, but perhaps some
(24:41):
people will.
Connecting to the values Ivalue, professional growth and
building connections.
This event, while uncomfortable, is an opportunity to move
towards those values.
Step three reframe and takeaction.
This is where the rubber meetsthe road.
It's about shifting yourperspective and taking these
(25:02):
courageous steps.
Reframe your discomfort.
Instead of seeing anxiety ordiscomfort as a red light, try
to see it as a green light forgrowth.
It often means you'restretching yourself, you're on
the edge of your comfort zone,and that's where learning,
growth and progress happen.
(25:24):
Take small, manageable,values-aligned actions.
This isn't about suddenlybecoming fearless.
In fact, it's not aboutbecoming fearless at all.
It's about having courage anddiving into the deep end.
It's about taking one step thenanother.
What's a small, bold move youcan make?
(25:45):
The emphasis is on action, notwaiting until you feel perfectly
confident or unafraid.
In fact, often the confidencecomes after the action.
To round out our networkingexample, reframe and take action
.
Feeling anxious is just a signI'm stepping out of my comfort
(26:07):
zone, which is good for mygrowth.
My bold move today won't be tobecome the life of the party.
It will be to go to the eventfor 30 minutes and aim to ask
one person an open-endedquestion about their work.
That's it A small, simple,concrete, values-driven step.
(26:29):
By repeatedly moving throughthis cycle detect, disrupt and
reframe to act you begin toretrain your brain.
You show yourself that you cantolerate discomfort, that the
feared outcomes are often lessintense than you imagined and
that you are capable of movingtowards what matters to you it
(26:54):
reminds me of something thatyou've said.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I believe in the podcast, but you say it a lot of
times, even at home.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
You talk about oh boy , which one is it?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
You talk about how the feelings of nervousness and
excitement are very similar.
It's very similar head rushsimilar to how your heart beats
faster sweaty palms similar tohow your heart beats faster
sweaty palms.
So if you can tap into and tryto shift the focus of fear and
nervousness into excitement, Ithink that could be a very
(27:28):
powerful tool to use as well.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Absolutely.
They are so similar thatthey're physiologically
identical.
The major difference is justthe way that your brain
interprets that sensation as apositive thing or a negative
thing.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Which simplifies it in a way and makes it less scary
.
If you think of it as wow, I'mexcited, it's the same feeling.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
And, to be honest, it's often sort of a combination
, because, thinking about it asa switch right Like you're
either nervous or excited.
Oftentimes we're interpretingit in a way that's sort of a mix
of both.
Before we get too off track,let's quickly recap Dr Marquis's
approach to overcomingavoidance with some actionable
(28:18):
takeaways that you can start toimplement today.
Become a detective.
Start noticing your avoidancepatterns.
Self-awareness is one of thebiggest keys to personal growth.
What situations, thoughts orfeelings do you tend to sidestep
?
What are the go-to thinkingtraps that your mind lays for
(28:42):
you?
Just observe, notice and usesome curiosity like a scientist.
Understand your TEB cycle.
Remember your thoughts, createyour emotions and often your
emotions then dictate yourbehaviors.
See how they connect for you.
Embrace her bold move frameworkby detecting.
(29:06):
See the avoidance and thethoughts disrupting.
Challenge those thoughts and,crucially, connect with your
values what's truly importantthat avoidance is blocking and
then reframe to act.
Reframe that discomfort as asign of growth and take one
small, manageable step that isaligned with your values.
(29:30):
Start small and be kind toyourself.
This isn't about overnighttransformation.
It's going to require somegrace, some self-compassion.
It's about consistent, small,simple steps.
There will be times where youslip back into old patterns,
(29:50):
that's okay.
Treat yourself with compassion,learn from it and gently guide
yourself back to your values andyour next bold move.
And when you get to the actionportion of this, after you've
detected the thoughts oremotions that are preventing you
from doing the behavior thatyou want, or causing the
(30:12):
avoidance basically what'smaking you want to avoid
something and disrupted thosethoughts or emotions by
questioning them, changing yourstate and realizing how avoiding
this situation takes you awayfrom your core values, what's
really important to you, we thenget to reframe and take action.
(30:35):
We reframe this as somethingthat's important for our values,
for our life and for our growth, but we still have to take
action.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
That reminds me of the exercise that we did in a
recent seminar of Tony Robbins,where he put you into a state
where you're envisioning how youfeel after you've taken that
action and then you're honestlynot even thinking about the fear
of doing it.
You're just so excited to getto the point where you've
(31:10):
actually already done it and itdistracts you from the fear of
it.
So to try to put yourself intothat headspace of wow, I finally
did it, thinking how goodyou're going to feel when you've
finally gotten that monkey offyour back, I think is a really
powerful, is a very powerfultool in using perspective shift.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Like you said, it changes your perspective, but it
also shifts your emotional andphysical state your perspective,
but it also shifts youremotional and physical state.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
We also have a technique that we've talked
about in that action episode andthat's from Mel Robbins, called
the five-second rule.
It's basically a situation ifyou're finding yourself putting
off doing an action, count inyour mind or out loud five, four
, three, two, one, blast off andgo do that action.
(32:03):
Don't even give yourself amoment to think about it.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
We also have scheduling things that you want
to get done and boxing your time.
This means by scheduling it orputting it into a specific time
frame and boxing out, this timewe're taking advantage of
Parkinson's law.
Parkinson's law states a taskwill expand to fill the amount
(32:30):
of time that you give it.
So by giving it a set timeframe and boxing your time,
you're taking advantage ofParkinson's law to compress that
task into that time.
You are taking advantage ofParkinson's law to compress that
task into that time.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
We have a lot of time-related ones, but I think
that's for all good reason,because usually you spend two
hours procrastinating somethingthat potentially you could do in
two minutes, which brings us tothe two-minute tool.
Instead of wasting all thattime thinking about it and
putting off that thing that youneed to do, ask yourself can I
(33:02):
accomplish this task in twominutes or less?
If yes, do it.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Because, frankly, it's not going to take you very
long.
It literally has a maximum timeframe.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Right.
What I would put in thatcategory is scheduling an
appointment, paying a billespecially if it can be done
online or sending a text message.
All things that can be donepotentially within two minutes.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
you've taken that action towards doing something
you want to avoid, somethingthat's uncomfortable.
Reframe your mindset around itduring.
Let's take advantage of thatintrinsic motivation by getting
back to our default state andrewiring our brains to embrace
(33:55):
the challenge, embrace theeffort and telling ourselves
that we like a challenge, thatwe like to be pushed, that we
like to strive, because doingthis repeatedly literally
rewires our dopamine system togive us motivation to do hard
(34:16):
things, making it that mucheasier to not avoid them in the
first place.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
The core message here is one of empowerment, boldness
, as Dr Marquise teaches.
It is really about courage.
It isn't about the absence offear.
It's about feeling the fear,acknowledging the discomfort and
choosing to act in line withyour deepest values.
Anyways.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I hope this discussion on avoidance and Dr
Marquis' strategies has givenyou some fresh perspectives and,
most importantly, somerealistic tools to start making
changes.
Remember every small steptowards facing what you fear is
a victory.
Action equals success.
(35:03):
Be the water, not the rock, andremember you are enough and you
deserve to fill up your innercup with happiness.
And you deserve to fill up yourinner cup with happiness,
confidence and self-compassion.
Thank you for listening to theSage Solutions Podcast.
(35:26):
Your time is valuable and I'mso glad you choose to learn and
grow here with me.
We'd love to hear your feedback, so click the link in the
description and let us know whatyou think.
If you haven't already, don'tforget to subscribe so you don't
miss out on more sage advice.
(35:46):
One last thing the legallanguage.
This podcast is for educationaland informational purposes only
.
No coaching client relationshipis formed.
It is not intended as asubstitute for the personalized
(36:09):
advice of a physician,professional coach,
psychotherapist or otherqualified professional.
Welcome to the Sage Solutions Podcast, where we talk
about all things personalgrowth, personal development and
becoming your best self.
My name is David Sage and I'm aself-worth and confidence coach
with Sage Coaching Solutions.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hey guys, hannah Sage here David's wife coaching
solutions.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Hey guys, hannah Sage here, david's wife Hannah, is
also one of our reoccurringco-hosts and will be joining me
for today's topic.
Today, we're tackling achallenge that every single one
of us faces at some pointAvoidance, that sneaky habit of
sidestepping things, Things thatmake us uncomfortable, anxious
or even a little bit scared.
It might feel like a safestrategy in the moment, but what
(00:49):
if it's actually the main thingholding us back from the life
we truly want?
We're going to dive into thescience behind why we avoid it
and, more importantly, we'll beunlocking some powerful,
actionable strategies to help usstop avoiding and start living
Before we get into it.
(01:10):
Our goal with this podcast isto share free, helpful tools
with you and anyone you know whois looking to improve their
life so don't avoid it.
Their life, so don't avoid it.
Take action, subscribe andshare this podcast with them.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'm excited about this topic today because it's
something that everyone,including myself, deals with on
a day-to-day basis, and I thinka lot of times the cause for
avoidance is a little bit deeper.
It doesn't mean that you'reincompetent or lazy.
I think there's some underlyingroots to avoidance and I'm
excited to dig a little deeper.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
And that's exactly what we're planning on doing.
But to guide us, we'll befocusing on the incredible
insights and methods of Dr LuanaMarquis, an associate professor
at Harvard Medical School andan expert in helping people
overcome anxiety and avoidance.
Her work is all about makingbold moves and by the end of
(02:13):
this episode, we'll have somereal down-to-earth steps that we
can all start using immediately.
So what exactly is avoidance?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines avoidance as
an act or practice of avoidingor withdrawing from something.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I want to make a small distinction here.
In many different situationsprocrastination and avoidance
can be basically the same thing,but avoidance is a little bit
broader than procrastination.
Procrastination, at least inintent, is the delaying of
(02:53):
something with the intent tostill do it later, but to just
put it off for now or avoid itfor now.
Procrastination is like a typeof avoidance, but avoidance as a
broader category or a biggertopic can include avoiding
something altogether, decidingthat something is too painful,
(03:13):
too uncomfortable, too scary ortoo complicated to even attempt.
So I'm just going to avoid itgoing to avoid it.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So earlier today, when we were joking around about
avoiding recording theavoidance podcast, we were
actually just procrastinatingrecording the avoidance podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Which is still a type of avoidance.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
But here we are.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And avoidance also has many other contexts and it's
often used to describe like theavoidant attachment style or an
avoidant personality type.
That's not really what we'retalking about here today.
This is where I'm trying tosuss out some of the shades of
gray ahead of time so that Iavoid some confusion.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
But I also think it's important to note that there
are some emotional mentalbehaviors that kind of go hand
in hand with avoidance.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
And we will be thoroughly diving into those.
But first I really want tostart with what exactly is
avoidance in the context ofpersonal development?
It's more than just putting offyour chores, though that can be
a form of it too.
Like we just said, at its core,avoidance is a behavior pattern
aimed at preventing or escapingunpleasant thoughts, feelings,
(04:32):
sensations or situations.
It's that internal alarm systemscreaming danger, discomfort,
ahead, retreat.
But why do we do it?
Well, our brains are wired forsurvival.
If you haven't heard me saythis in a previous episode,
you're going to keep hearing mesay this.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And again, and again, and again.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Because it's not going to change.
Our brains are wired forsurvival because, if they
weren't, we wouldn't exist.
They had to be in order for usto survive, to get to this cushy
world that we live in today.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Throwback to an earlier episode where I probably
slightly enraged Anna and Davidwith saying we needed it to run
away from the dinosaurs.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Hey, it was a great visual example.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Dinosaurs and humans weren't really around at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
You knew that too.
You were just doing hyperbolein the moment.
Historically, avoiding threatskept us alive, but these modern
day threats are often much morepsychological than objectively
real the fear of failure, thefear of rejection of judgment,
or simply the discomfort ofuncertainty.
(05:49):
When we're faced with a taskthat triggers these feelings,
like a tough conversation,applying for a new job or even
going to a social event, thatold part of our brain kicks in
and says nope, let's scrollthrough social media instead.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Because in the moment it feels good to kind of avoid
that conflict.
I'm trying not to use the wordavoid much, but it's hard to not
use the word avoid when we'retalking about avoidance.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Who would have thought?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
But anyways, it feels good in the moment to distract
ourselves from facing thatobstacle or what we think is a
big thing, and a lot of timesit's not nearly as scary as
we've made it out to be in ourbrains.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Right, because our thoughts, while they can be
objective, are often much moresubjective than reality, and
that means our fears and the waythat we build them up in our
head can also be subjective.
They are directly changed orinfluenced by our perspective of
(06:56):
reality, and that also meansthat they can be reframed to be
better or worse than thesituation actually is.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
And the longer we put it off, the bigger it becomes.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Oh, now you're getting into the meat and
potatoes of where this is going,but before we get too ahead of
ourselves.
At its core, avoidance is yourbrain's attempt to prevent
discomfort, and the science hereis fascinating, though a bit
paradoxical.
When we avoid something thatmakes us anxious, we get
(07:30):
immediate relief Ah, crisisaverted.
But here's the catch that minorimmediate relief reinforces the
anxiety and reinforces theavoidance.
The anxiety and reinforces theavoidance.
See, anxiety often makes peoplewant to avoid whatever is
(07:50):
causing their anxiety.
But the kicker is that there'sa negative feedback loop.
Avoidance is one of the biggestdrivers of anxiety.
When you're avoiding the thingthat gives you anxiety, you are
removing yourself further fromthat thing, which allows your
brain to build it up to be abigger deal than it is because
(08:13):
you're further removed from it.
You've also subconsciouslyreinforced that the thing must
have been bad because that's whyyou avoided it.
Must have been bad because it'swhy you avoided it.
And the more times you avoidwhat makes you anxious, the
bigger the threat your brainbuilds it up to be.
And subconsciously you reaffirmthat the reason that you
(08:36):
avoided it was because it was abig threat.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Breeding anxiety, insecurities and self-doubt.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And this cycle keeps continuing over and over, as
your anxiety around it buildsand builds and your avoidance
keeps happening until it caneven cause, at its extreme,
crippling disorders likeagoraphobia or the fear of
leaving your house, as well asother phobias.
(09:04):
As research in cognitivebehavioral psychology
consistently shows, by avoidingthe feared situation, we never
learn that we can cope with it,or that the catastrophic outcome
we imagine probably won'thappen, or that the catastrophic
outcome we imagine probablywon't happen.
In fact, studies like thoseexploring the generalization of
(09:26):
fear suggest that relentlessavoidance can make our fears
bigger and even spread to other,unrelated areas of our lives.
We essentially teach our brainthat the only way to handle
discomfort is to run from it,but, as we'll learn, there's a
much more empowering way.
This brings us to Dr Marquise.
(09:46):
She's a leading voice in thisfield.
As an associate professor ofpsychiatry at Harvard Medical
School, president of the Anxietyand Depression Association of
America and author of the bookBold Move a three-step plan to
transform anxiety into power,she's dedicated her career to
understanding and treatinganxiety and avoidance.
(10:10):
Her core philosophy isrefreshingly direct.
She emphasizes that, while lifeinevitably brings challenges
and discomfort, it's ouravoidance of this discomfort
that truly limits us.
I love this quote from herAvoidance is the enemy.
Be the water, not the rock.
(10:31):
Flow past the obstacles youface and never stop moving
towards your values.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
I love that.
I feel like that kind of paintsa picture in my head that I
could actually pull up when I'mdebating.
Being a rock Kind of forces meto flow with the water, and it
just shows how easily a mentalshift can change your
perspective.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I couldn't agree more .
Be the water.
I couldn't agree more.
Be the water, not the rock.
Let's just think about that fora moment.
It's the flexibility,resilience and forward movement,
even when things are tough.
Her approach isn't abouteliminating fear or anxiety
altogether, because, let's faceit, those are human emotions.
(11:21):
They're not going anywhere.
Instead, it's about changingour relationship with those
feelings so they no longer callthe shots.
It's about learning to makewhat she calls bold moves,
actions aligned with what trulymatters to us, even when it
feels hard.
Now, discomfort can come in anumber of different forms.
(11:42):
There's just basic discomfort,where you might want to avoid
doing something just because youthink it's going to be hard or
tedious or annoying or take alot of effort, or you don't feel
like it in the moment.
Then there's moreemotion-driven discomfort, like
feeling anxiety, or getting to aplace of overwhelm, or maybe
(12:05):
feeling fear.
These emotional states cancause a level of discomfort that
makes you want to avoid it,whatever it may be.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
We've actually covered those three exact topics
in previous episodes overcomingoverwhelm, facing fear with
courage and handling anxiety.
So if you haven't heard thoseepisodes, I highly encourage you
to go back, find those episodesand give them a listen.
It'll be well worth it.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And while we're bringing that up, I want to
touch on the fact that DrMarquis talks about being bold,
as facing fear and overcomingchallenges We've talked about
this in a couple differentepisodes, like the episode on
courage.
Facing fear, feeling the fearand doing it anyways is being
(12:59):
courageous, on letting obstaclesmotivate you with stoicism and
cultivating intrinsic motivationby reframing the way that we
think about effort and challenge, turning effort into energy.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Which was our most recent episode.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
That it was Getting back to our types of discomfort.
We have our third one.
A little less talked aboutwould be the discomfort of
uncertainty, of how, ofcomplexity.
As Tony Robbins says,complexity is the enemy of
execution.
He also says never let thetyranny of how stop you from
(13:44):
taking action.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
So you mean I don't need a 12-step plan to get to
the grocery store?
I hate grocery shopping, by theway.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, that's why I do most of the grocery shopping.
And, to answer your question,no, you don't need a 12-step
plan to go to the grocery store.
Most things don't need a12-step plan.
Period, kiss, k-i-s.
Keep it simple, small, simplesteps, one at a time.
(14:13):
Don't overcomplicate it.
Paralysis by analysis isbasically avoiding taking action
, because the discomfort of howor how to do it perfect is
enough to stop you from takingaction, which is why action
equals success and outcomes arejust learning.
(14:33):
There's no point in figuringout how to do it if it's going
to stop you from doing it.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
So how do we learn how to be water and not the rock
?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Well, in order to actually do this, dr Marquis
offers a very practical,science-backed framework Before
we dive into the specific threesteps for making these bold
moves.
Making these bold moves, it'shelpful to understand a concept.
She often talks about the T-E-Bcycle that stands for thoughts,
(15:06):
emotions and behaviors.
So imagine this you have athought.
If I speak up in this meeting,I'll probably say something
stupid and embarrass myself.
That thought then triggers anemotion, anxiety, maybe a knot
in your stomach, a racing heart,and that emotion then drives
(15:29):
our behavior.
You stay silent, avoid eyecontact, continue to feel
anxious and maybe even skip themeeting if you can.
That's avoidance in action,fueled by the thought and the
emotion.
The TEB cycle shows how thesethree elements are constantly
(15:50):
interacting and influencing eachother, often keeping us stuck
in unhelpful patterns.
The good news is, byunderstanding this cycle, we can
find points to intervene, andthat's where her three-step bold
move framework comes in.
So if our thoughts often createour emotions and then our
(16:11):
emotions lead to our behaviorsT-E-B and in this case avoidance
is the behavior that we'retrying to change then a
different set of thoughts thatlead to a different set of
emotions could lead to adifferent behavior like taking
action.
So her three-step process goeslike this Detect, disrupt and
(16:38):
reframe to take action.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Whoa hold on there, buddy, Can you repeat those
three for me?
Speaker 1 (16:49):
What am I?
A horse.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
But in all seriousness, can we repeat those
three things just in caseanybody's trying to write
something down or to really hitit home?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Detect, disrupt and reframe to take action.
Step one detect.
This first step is all aboutawareness.
You can't change what you don'tacknowledge.
Recognize your avoidancepatterns.
How does avoidance show up foryou?
(17:30):
Is it procrastination onimportant tasks, avoiding social
situations, numbing out with TVor scrolling on social media?
Maybe it's subtler, likeconstantly seeking reassurance
or over-preparing to an extremedegree to avoid any chance of
failure or to not start in thefirst place?
Start to notice these patternswithout judgment.
(17:52):
Just observe.
Identify the thinking traps.
What are the specific thoughtsthat trigger your avoidance?
She draws from cognitivebehavioral therapy to highlight
common traps likecatastrophizing If I try this,
it will be a complete disaster.
All or nothing thinking If Ican't do it perfectly, there's
(18:16):
no point in doing it at all.
Mind reading Everyone willthink I'm incompetent.
And we've actually talked aboutcures for all three of these
thought patterns as well.
We have a whole episode oncatastrophizing.
As far as all or nothingthinking handling, that is one
of my core fundamentals Thinkingin shades of gray or the longer
(18:39):
version, lifelong learning inshades of gray and the longer
version.
Lifelong learning in shades ofgray and mind reading is really
just making assumptions ortelling yourself stories about
how others feel instead ofactually knowing.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I've been guilty of every single one of those at
different points in life.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
And who hasn't, I sure as hell have?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I tend to be a bit of an extremist when it comes to
things, and then that translatesinto black or white, very all
or nothing thinking.
That comes the most natural tome and my personality,
unfortunately.
So that's something that I'vehad to work hard at is
maintaining thinking in shadesof gray.
(19:19):
Work hard at is maintainingthinking in shades of gray.
Speaking of shades of gray, myrelationship with this topic
isn't so black and white.
As you guys know, I've discussedin past episodes about how I
struggle with anxiety, and I'vealso talked about how I'm pretty
good at taking action andgetting things done when they
need to be done, but I'm alsofairly good at avoiding getting
(19:43):
something done because of myanxiety.
It's a weird extreme between thetwo Because on one hand, yes,
I'm getting things done, but onthe other hand, sometimes I just
want to hide in a hole.
It generally depends on thetopic and if it's a situation
that I already feel insecure in.
So, like I would say, whenDavid and I first started dating
(20:05):
, I was pretty insecure on theway that I handled my finances,
so I avoided talking aboutlooking at figuring out how my
finances could be better.
That was until I had the helpfrom David, who separated that
insecurity for me and made merealize that it's not something
to be insecure about, justsomething to improve and work
(20:28):
through.
On the other hand, when itcomes to manual labor, such as
yard work, cooking, cleaning,building something, putting
together Ikea furniture, I'm allin and I'll get it done very
quickly.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Like shockingly quickly and efficiently and
almost annoyingly good.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I'm very aggressive about the things I like to do,
but the things that I feeluncomfortable in or insecure
about, my natural tendency, atleast when anxiety is involved,
is to avoid doing that thing.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
This is a really good example because it shows how we
as human beings are complex.
We are shades of gray, we arenot just good at one thing and
just bad at another thing.
Many different parts of ourpersonality and situation and
(21:24):
feelings and emotions all playtogether to form who we are and
the actions that we take or thethoughts that we have in any
given situation.
But to get back to the firststep of her detect, disrupt and
reframe to take action.
When we are detecting, we aresimply naming these thoughts as
(21:47):
thinking traps and when we do so, it can start to loosen their
grip.
Dr Marquis wisely says yourthoughts are real.
It Dr Marquis wisely says yourthoughts are real.
But that doesn't mean thatthey're true.
Let's take an example.
Say you avoid a networkingevent, detecting the pattern you
(22:08):
notice, you always find anexcuse not to go.
Or if you do go, you hover bythe food table and leave early,
doing little to no actualnetworking.
Detecting these thinking traps.
Your underlying thoughts mightbe I'm awkward, I'll have
nothing to say, no one will wantto talk to me, I'll just
embarrass myself.
So that's where we move intostep two disrupt.
(22:33):
Once you've detected theavoidance and the thoughts
fueling it.
The next step is to create apause and challenge the
automatic pilot.
Challenge those unhelpfulthoughts.
Become your own thought lawyer.
Ask yourself is this thought100% true?
Where's the evidence for it?
(22:55):
Where's the evidence against it?
What's a more balanced shadesof gray or realistic way of
looking at this?
What would I tell a friend whohad this thought?
We're taking control of ourperspective of reality by
utilizing some of the mostimportant things that are in our
locus of control our thoughtsand our perspectives.
(23:17):
Next, we connect with our corevalues.
These are what are mostimportant to us.
What are the most importantvalues in your life?
If you had to boil it down to atop five, a top three, what are
the values that you live yourlife by?
This is crucial.
She emphasizes that bold movesare values-driven.
(23:40):
Ask yourself what truly mattersto me in my career, in my
relationships, for my personalgrowth, for who I am and for my
morality.
Example, if you valueconnection, growth or
(24:00):
contribution in your career, howis avoiding networking events
getting in the way of thosevalues?
Focusing on your values givesyou a why that can be stronger
than your fear.
It shifts the motivation from Ihave to do this scary thing to.
I choose to do this because italigns with what's important to
me.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Like becoming a doer.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
So to get back to this networking example, the
disrupting thought.
Okay, I might feel awkwardinitially, that's true, but have
I always had nothing to say?
Are there times I've had goodconversations?
Maybe not everyone will want totalk to me, I've had good
conversations.
Maybe not everyone will want totalk to me, but perhaps some
(24:41):
people will.
Connecting to the values Ivalue, professional growth and
building connections.
This event, while uncomfortable, is an opportunity to move
towards those values.
Step three reframe and takeaction.
This is where the rubber meetsthe road.
It's about shifting yourperspective and taking these
(25:02):
courageous steps.
Reframe your discomfort.
Instead of seeing anxiety ordiscomfort as a red light, try
to see it as a green light forgrowth.
It often means you'restretching yourself, you're on
the edge of your comfort zone,and that's where learning,
growth and progress happen.
(25:24):
Take small, manageable,values-aligned actions.
This isn't about suddenlybecoming fearless.
In fact, it's not aboutbecoming fearless at all.
It's about having courage anddiving into the deep end.
It's about taking one step thenanother.
What's a small, bold move youcan make?
(25:45):
The emphasis is on action, notwaiting until you feel perfectly
confident or unafraid.
In fact, often the confidencecomes after the action.
To round out our networkingexample, reframe and take action
.
Feeling anxious is just a signI'm stepping out of my comfort
(26:07):
zone, which is good for mygrowth.
My bold move today won't be tobecome the life of the party.
It will be to go to the eventfor 30 minutes and aim to ask
one person an open-endedquestion about their work.
That's it A small, simple,concrete, values-driven step.
(26:29):
By repeatedly moving throughthis cycle detect, disrupt and
reframe to act you begin toretrain your brain.
You show yourself that you cantolerate discomfort, that the
feared outcomes are often lessintense than you imagined and
that you are capable of movingtowards what matters to you it
(26:54):
reminds me of something thatyou've said.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I believe in the podcast, but you say it a lot of
times, even at home.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
You talk about oh boy , which one is it?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
You talk about how the feelings of nervousness and
excitement are very similar.
It's very similar head rushsimilar to how your heart beats
faster sweaty palms similar tohow your heart beats faster
sweaty palms.
So if you can tap into and tryto shift the focus of fear and
nervousness into excitement, Ithink that could be a very
(27:28):
powerful tool to use as well.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Absolutely.
They are so similar thatthey're physiologically
identical.
The major difference is justthe way that your brain
interprets that sensation as apositive thing or a negative
thing.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Which simplifies it in a way and makes it less scary
.
If you think of it as wow, I'mexcited, it's the same feeling.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
And, to be honest, it's often sort of a combination
, because, thinking about it asa switch right Like you're
either nervous or excited.
Oftentimes we're interpretingit in a way that's sort of a mix
of both.
Before we get too off track,let's quickly recap Dr Marquis's
approach to overcomingavoidance with some actionable
(28:18):
takeaways that you can start toimplement today.
Become a detective.
Start noticing your avoidancepatterns.
Self-awareness is one of thebiggest keys to personal growth.
What situations, thoughts orfeelings do you tend to sidestep
?
What are the go-to thinkingtraps that your mind lays for
(28:42):
you?
Just observe, notice and usesome curiosity like a scientist.
Understand your TEB cycle.
Remember your thoughts, createyour emotions and often your
emotions then dictate yourbehaviors.
See how they connect for you.
Embrace her bold move frameworkby detecting.
(29:06):
See the avoidance and thethoughts disrupting.
Challenge those thoughts and,crucially, connect with your
values what's truly importantthat avoidance is blocking and
then reframe to act.
Reframe that discomfort as asign of growth and take one
small, manageable step that isaligned with your values.
(29:30):
Start small and be kind toyourself.
This isn't about overnighttransformation.
It's going to require somegrace, some self-compassion.
It's about consistent, small,simple steps.
There will be times where youslip back into old patterns,
(29:50):
that's okay.
Treat yourself with compassion,learn from it and gently guide
yourself back to your values andyour next bold move.
And when you get to the actionportion of this, after you've
detected the thoughts oremotions that are preventing you
from doing the behavior thatyou want, or causing the
(30:12):
avoidance basically what'smaking you want to avoid
something and disrupted thosethoughts or emotions by
questioning them, changing yourstate and realizing how avoiding
this situation takes you awayfrom your core values, what's
really important to you, we thenget to reframe and take action.
(30:35):
We reframe this as somethingthat's important for our values,
for our life and for our growth, but we still have to take
action.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
That reminds me of the exercise that we did in a
recent seminar of Tony Robbins,where he put you into a state
where you're envisioning how youfeel after you've taken that
action and then you're honestlynot even thinking about the fear
of doing it.
You're just so excited to getto the point where you've
(31:10):
actually already done it and itdistracts you from the fear of
it.
So to try to put yourself intothat headspace of wow, I finally
did it, thinking how goodyou're going to feel when you've
finally gotten that monkey offyour back, I think is a really
powerful, is a very powerfultool in using perspective shift.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Like you said, it changes your perspective, but it
also shifts your emotional andphysical state your perspective,
but it also shifts youremotional and physical state.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
We also have a technique that we've talked
about in that action episode andthat's from Mel Robbins, called
the five-second rule.
It's basically a situation ifyou're finding yourself putting
off doing an action, count inyour mind or out loud five, four
, three, two, one, blast off andgo do that action.
(32:03):
Don't even give yourself amoment to think about it.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
We also have scheduling things that you want
to get done and boxing your time.
This means by scheduling it orputting it into a specific time
frame and boxing out, this timewe're taking advantage of
Parkinson's law.
Parkinson's law states a taskwill expand to fill the amount
(32:30):
of time that you give it.
So by giving it a set timeframe and boxing your time,
you're taking advantage ofParkinson's law to compress that
task into that time.
You are taking advantage ofParkinson's law to compress that
task into that time.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
We have a lot of time-related ones, but I think
that's for all good reason,because usually you spend two
hours procrastinating somethingthat potentially you could do in
two minutes, which brings us tothe two-minute tool.
Instead of wasting all thattime thinking about it and
putting off that thing that youneed to do, ask yourself can I
(33:02):
accomplish this task in twominutes or less?
If yes, do it.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Because, frankly, it's not going to take you very
long.
It literally has a maximum timeframe.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Right.
What I would put in thatcategory is scheduling an
appointment, paying a billespecially if it can be done
online or sending a text message.
All things that can be donepotentially within two minutes.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
you've taken that action towards doing something
you want to avoid, somethingthat's uncomfortable.
Reframe your mindset around itduring.
Let's take advantage of thatintrinsic motivation by getting
back to our default state andrewiring our brains to embrace
(33:55):
the challenge, embrace theeffort and telling ourselves
that we like a challenge, thatwe like to be pushed, that we
like to strive, because doingthis repeatedly literally
rewires our dopamine system togive us motivation to do hard
(34:16):
things, making it that mucheasier to not avoid them in the
first place.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
The core message here is one of empowerment, boldness
, as Dr Marquise teaches.
It is really about courage.
It isn't about the absence offear.
It's about feeling the fear,acknowledging the discomfort and
choosing to act in line withyour deepest values.
Anyways.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I hope this discussion on avoidance and Dr
Marquis' strategies has givenyou some fresh perspectives and,
most importantly, somerealistic tools to start making
changes.
Remember every small steptowards facing what you fear is
a victory.
Action equals success.
(35:03):
Be the water, not the rock, andremember you are enough and you
deserve to fill up your innercup with happiness.
And you deserve to fill up yourinner cup with happiness,
confidence and self-compassion.
Thank you for listening to theSage Solutions Podcast.
(35:26):
Your time is valuable and I'mso glad you choose to learn and
grow here with me.
We'd love to hear your feedback, so click the link in the
description and let us know whatyou think.
If you haven't already, don'tforget to subscribe so you don't
miss out on more sage advice.
(35:46):
One last thing the legallanguage.
This podcast is for educationaland informational purposes only
.
No coaching client relationshipis formed.
It is not intended as asubstitute for the personalized
(36:09):
advice of a physician,professional coach,
psychotherapist or otherqualified professional.
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