November 8, 2024 • 31 mins
Episode 174. This week we welcome a sake personality from Quebec, Canada to the studio – Mr. Benoit Champagne. With a name like Mr. Champagne, you might well think Benoit was destined for a life involved with sparkling wine, but luckily for the sake lovers of Quebec, he found his way first to Japan and discovered a love of sake, which he now guides breweries to exporting in Canada. Benoit also worked for years as a non-Japanese brewer and export manager at a Japanese sake brewery, which we also discuss in this episode. Listen in as we sip on and explore the je ne sais quoi of a delicious sake recommended by Benoit, Zaku Ho no Tomo Junmai. Join us! #SakeRevolution
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Episode Transcript
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John Puma (00:22):
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution.
This is America's first sakepodcast.
I'm your host, John Puma fromthe Sake Notes, also
administrator over at theInternet Sake Discord, and I
also run the Reddit r slash sakecommunity.
Timothy Sullivan (00:36):
And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan.
I'm a Sake Samurai.
I'm the director of education atthe Sake Studies Center, as well
as the founder of the Urban Sakewebsite.
And every week, John and I willbe here tasting and chatting
about all things sake and doingour best to make it fun and easy
to understand.
John Puma (00:54):
That's right, Tim, and thank you for coming by for
yet another week.
I don't know how I lured youinto this.
You keep coming back no matterwhat I do.
It's pretty impressive.
Mm
Timothy (01:06):
Well, John, I'm so excited to welcome another
guest.
We're going another interviewthis week, but we're starting a
series of interviewing nonJapanese people who have worked
at Japanese sake Breweriesbefore.
I think I'm someone who's donethat, and I'm always interested
(01:26):
to learn people's motivation totake on that pretty challenging
task for themselves.
John Puma (01:32):
Yeah, one might, one might say you were probably the
first guest on our show in thatseries.
We just didn't know it yet.
And we also have to workshopthat name.
I think that people who workedat sake breweries, it just
doesn't roll off the tongue.
but you know, we'll, we'llfigure that out.
And hopefully maybe our guestshave some ideas and we can, we
can, bounce a few off.
Uh, so Tim, can you introducethis wonderful person that is in
(01:54):
the chat with us right now?
Timothy Sullivan (01:55):
Yes, I'm so happy to introduce my friend,
Benoit Champagne.
He is a Thank you.
consultant and owns a company inQuebec, Canada, called Nijikai
Sake.
He's an advisor for brewers whowant to export to Canada.
And he's lived in Japan and hasa tremendous story.
(02:16):
So I'm so excited to welcomeBenoit to the podcast.
Welcome, Benoit.
Benoit Champagne (02:22):
Hi Timothy.
Hi John.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
It's really nice you thoughtabout inviting me.
It's a really high privilege.
I love your podcast and I hopewe're going to have a fun time
talking sake
John Puma (02:34):
today oh, so you've listened to us before then.
Benoit Champagne (02:36):
Of course I did.
John Puma (02:37):
Oh, wow.
Now the pressure's on.
Benoit Champagne (02:40):
It's not my native tongue, but my native
language, but I love listeningto you guys and I hope you're
not going to be too rough on mylanguage skills
John Puma (02:50):
no, you sound great.
Timothy Sullivan (02:50):
Absolutely.
I can't wait any longer.
I have to ask you about a couplethings on your resume here.
We want to find out how you gotinto sake, how you wound up in
Japan.
And one of the things on yourresume here that caught my eye
is that you have a Toji Guildcertificate from the Nambu Toji
(03:12):
Guild.
Super interested to hear aboutthat.
So please give us a bit of yourbackground.
How did you get into sake andhow did you get to Japan?
Benoit Champagne (03:21):
Well, actually it's a long story.
I'm try, I'm gonna try to resumeit, but, I was a student from
the MBU Kaga show.
It's a scholarship, the Japanesegovernment gives to students who
are studying their researchprogram or their master degrees.
And I was in Niigata, which isthe capital of Sake.
I'm sure.
Uh,, Timothy is a, great, lover
John Puma (03:42):
I'm surrounded.
Benoit Champagne (03:45):
And perhaps more than half of my friends
were having this part-time jobin a Sake brewer near, the
university or near theirhometown.
And they were inviting me, in,in their breweries to just
experience the culture aroundit.
And that's how I went to, to thesake industry.
And now today, not s I'm sorry,but, the brewery where I was
(04:09):
hired is Urakasumi, which is notin in Niigata, but it's a
brewery that I approach becauseI'm a huge fan of the Urakasumi
Zen products that perhaps mostof, our listeners are already
know about.
And and through Urakasumi, Iparticipated in this brewing
program, the Nanbu Toji program,which is the biggest guild of of
(04:30):
brewers in Japan.
And one funny story about thisis that my my boss at the time,
Mr.
Saura, he he did not expect meto to pass the certification
because it's I don't know if youalready know it, Timothy or
John, but, Passing a nanbutouji,it's 70 percent pass and 30
percent fail.
Now, I was really thinking Iwould be in the 30 percent
(04:54):
because of my Japanese, but Idon't know how, but I got the
certificate, so I'm reallyhappy, and I'm really proud of
of this, and now I'm a Nanbutoji brewer.
Not a toji, but a brewer.
John Puma (05:07):
you got to start somewhere.
Benoit Champagne (05:08):
Of course.
Timothy Sullivan (05:09):
that is amazing.
And that was all in Japanese,right?
The exam and the instruction.
Benoit Champagne (05:14):
Exactly.
There's actually a rule in NambuToji where you are not allowed
to write in Hiragana orKatakana, so you have to write
your answers in kanji.
Timothy Sullivan (05:23):
Oh my God.
Wow.
John Puma (05:27):
Tim, have you ever done that?
Timothy Sullivan (05:28):
no.
no.
I didn't even, this is onanother level.
I cannot even
John Puma (05:36):
That, this concept fills me with terror.
I'll tell you that right now.
Timothy Sullivan (05:40):
that is so absolutely impressive.
So you started working forUrakasumi and you did only
brewing work or what was yourwork at the brewery?
Benoit Champagne (05:50):
At first they thought, as a foreigner It's
more it's actually needed toknow some brewing skills in
order to introduce sake to theforeign market.
So I did more than half a yearin the brewery before going
abroad.
But actually, I think all peopleat Urakasumi thought from that
(06:12):
point it's not a matter of beinga foreigner or being a Japanese.
Perhaps every salesman shouldactually brew sake before going
on the road, which I totallyagree on.
A new learning that they madethrough hiring me and a learning
that I made through being hiredby them.
John Puma (06:28):
Wow.
That's pretty cool.
I like that and that's like agood, method.
I think it's a good idea.
So I'm glad that they came tothat conclusion to I think more,
maybe more breweries shouldadopt that.
I like that a lot.
Benoit Champagne (06:39):
A lot of foreigners are starting to
actually get this brewingexperience.
It's actually great too,
John Puma (06:44):
yeah, we're seeing it more and more.
So when, getting into sake, weall have our moment.
We all have that moment wherethe sake speaks to us and we
have the aha.
This is the beverage.
Tell us about your aha moment.
Benoit Champagne (06:58):
I think it was when I visited an Niigata
brewery.
It's called Imayatsukasa, whichyou probably know.
But there's this moment wherethe Kuramoto just opened a tank
and he he threw at us with thethe tank cover a draft of air of
smelling uh, fermented sake.
And I was like.
Oh, I like that smell.
(07:20):
This is for me.
So I think that was the moment.
I don't know for you if you havea particular one each or
anything.
Timothy Sullivan (07:28):
That's great.
I think you're our first convertto sake by smell,
John Puma (07:32):
Yeah, I think so.
That's amazing though.
That's pretty great.
Timothy Sullivan (07:38):
but I've had that experience too, where a
brewer lifts the lid off thetank and waves it, and like this
waft of ginjo aroma just smacksyou in the face.
That's awesome.
John Puma (07:49):
Yeah, I think that if you weren't, if you weren't a
sake fan going into a situationlike that, once you have that,
it's like, you can't, how couldyou not?
How could somebody not love sakeafter that?
Benoit Champagne (07:58):
Running on what Timothy said, I think that
draft of Ginjo aroma is it'ssuper hard to describe, but once
you have it, you're like, okay,that's what ginjoka is.
You don't need a wine glass tofeel it anymore.
You understand?
John Puma (08:11):
I agree.
I totally agree.
Timothy Sullivan (08:14):
we'd love to pick up where your story left
off in Urakasumi Brewery.
So you're working there, you didyour training, you worked
probably both in sales and as abrewer, is that right?
Benoit Champagne (08:26):
In my last years, of course, when COVID
hit, it was a bit different, butI was mostly on the road, so
two, three, four countries eachmonth.
That's harsh on the jet lag.
It's a constant jet lag.
But I came actually back toCanada, not because of any
problem in Japan is just afamily reasons.
So I'm really still attached alot to Urakasumi.
(08:49):
I'm still I'm, they're still mycustomers, so I still help them
with representation Canada, andit's still a product I have in
cases at home in my cellar,
John Puma (08:59):
That's nice.
Timothy Sullivan (09:02):
That's awesome.
So you wound up back in Canada.
Can you explain a little bit?
About the company you started in2022, Nijikai Sake, what you're
doing there in Quebec and howyou're helping brewers to export
sake.
Benoit Champagne (09:19):
At first when I came back, I saw there are so
many people trying to get sakein, but with state's monopoly, I
don't know if our listeners knowabout this, but Since it's state
controlled, there's a reallyhigh conservatism into going to
new beverages.
Quebec is actually 10 to 20years late on the United States
(09:42):
market as of now.
I thought if there's so manypeople trying to get in it,
Inside the country and still noways to actually buy it, having
one or more player coming in isnot going to help anyone.
I thought the best way tocontribute to the industry as a
whole was to advise people,especially on how to come to a
(10:07):
market like Quebec, whereeverybody thinks it's in
English, but there's like Frenchrules governing.
Thanks.
you're labeling, so you need tohave the language skills to get
into the market and get the lawsdone.
So the idea was actually tosupport breweries first, and
then educate the market second,towards the understanding of
(10:29):
sake.
And it's actually been reallyreally good in the past two
years.
Never ran out of of work, likewe say.
John Puma (10:37):
That's a good thing.
I think that's great.
So you mentioned that over inQuebec, you've got a very,
you've got a state run thingwhich is a, it's a case of some
states here in the U.
S.
as well.
New York is not one of those,but I guess what are the I guess
the pros and cons of that.
Obviously some of the cons arethat you're beholden to them and
you're things will be, there'llbe slow bringing new things to
(10:59):
market, but there are anybenefits to the system or is it
just something that that, thatgets in the way sometimes?
Benoit Champagne (11:06):
I would say from a state's perspective, yes,
there's, there are benefits.
If you look at the systems likein in Scandinavia, they they're
actually managed by by thehealth ministry.
So it's a way to control howalcohol is managed through the
health system in thosecountries.
In Canada, it's the economic theMinistry of Finance.
(11:28):
It's more about making money.
That is the objective.
So if the States makes money outof alcohol sales, they actually
finance the education systems,the healthcare indirectly, etc.
From a brewer's perspective, thebig merit out of this is if you
have one customer to manage fora whole area like this, They buy
(11:51):
a lot at one order, so it'sreally easy shipments once you
get your your road going.
However, starting is the harshpart.
It can take years to be able toget into the market.
And perhaps one of the huge consis that they manage sake like
they man like they manage wine,so they don't know about the
(12:13):
refrigeration part.
John Puma (12:14):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Benoit Champagne (12:15):
We cannot and we will never have namazake in
the next, perhaps, 20 to 30years unless they change this.
We cannot have super highquality Junmai, Daiginjo
preserved as it was in Japan.
We need to make sacrifices onquality, which is a huge cons
that we have both in Ontario andQuebec, I think.
John Puma (12:35):
Wow.
Oh, wow.
Timothy Sullivan (12:37):
What's the experience like for a consumer
to buy sake in Quebec?
Are the liquor stores run by thegovernment?
How does that work?
If I'm just a person on thestreet and I want to go buy a
bottle of sake, what's that
Benoit Champagne (12:50):
oh, it's there's a lot of stores in
Quebec, so for the population, Ithink there's 450 ish stores.
Around the territory for justDSAQ in Quebec.
So it's really easy to go getthe bottles that are available,
or you can also do the onlinepurchase, which is also very
(13:11):
easy.
However, to get a good choice onwhat you have, it's always the
same products that's going to bethere.
And it's mostly the same brands.
I think more than half of thesakes are managed by three
national brands.
And actually, COVID was positivein some ways because they
relaxed the rules into thebottle sellings, making
(13:35):
restaurants being able to tosell just to sell bottles by
themselves.
Of course, they have to buythrough the the state monopoly,
but they can choose what theywant to buy through different
agencies, and so they are theone who are mostly providing the
good quality stuff, the the goto sake bottles so it's most of
(13:58):
the agents have their Take theirrestaurants listing where you
know where the bottle shops are,you orient the customer towards
them and not towards themonopoly, most of the time.
John Puma (14:10):
So you already mentioned that you've you that
you still have a Urakasumi closeto your heart But who else do
you represent over there?
Who else do you do business withso to speak?
Benoit Champagne (14:20):
The company that actually encouraged me the
most and to which I'm going tobe forever grateful is Zaku.
Shimizu Seizaburo Shoten,located in Mie.
And I actually knocked at theirdoor first when I started my
business and say, you know, I ama huge fan of your sakes.
And I actually already soldaround the world with the
(14:42):
Shimizu couple, which are solovely.
They're perhaps one of the besthuman beings I know.
and they actually said yes, andin a week, they're like, yes,
help us promote sake, help uspromote the Mie culture as a
whole.
And and yes I'm very proud torepresent them since two years
now.
I'm also working withNihonsakari recently I've
(15:04):
started working with HeavenSake.
There's also the world's bestsommelier, who's also a
Quebecer, a friend of mine, soI'm helping him with his sake
brands, Essence 5 and TanakaChartier.
So a lot of brands here and thento promote, and they all became
(15:28):
more friends than customers,actually, over the years, I
think.
I all have them close to myheart now.
John Puma (15:34):
Oh, that's awesome
Timothy Sullivan (15:35):
That's great.
You mentioned that you helpbrewers in Japan kind of
position themselves for theCanadian market.
But what, you also mentionededucation, which I'm really
interested in, what type ofeducation do you do?
And, And how does that happen?
Benoit Champagne (15:50):
Everyone knows about Michael Tremblay.
Everyone knows about JohnGauntner, which are kind of
mentors to me in terms of sakepromotion.
And I realized in Quebec,there's no such thing as sake
education for professionals.
So if you speak English, or ifEnglish is a harsh language for
you, it's hard to get grasp onthe crucial information you
(16:12):
need, because it's mostly inJapanese or in English.
I started this year to to give avery advanced sake professional
course in Quebec.
Which was actually a very goodsuccess in April when I first
gave it.
And now I'm doing the secondsemester in September.
So we are going through all thebrewing process all the service
(16:33):
methods.
I already heard in one of yourpodcasts how you you were
talking about the etiquette ofsake sake service.
So this is my pleasure to see mystudents.
Do it do it in their stores,right?
So there's a microbrewery calledIle de Galles in Montreal, and
they all took my class and eachtime I go in and grab a beer
with them, they're getting theirbuck lower than mine and say,
(16:56):
Oh, look, I can do it myselfnow.
I am very impressed about yourmodesty.
John Puma (17:05):
Great.
I think that is a wonderful timeto take a moment here and let's
taste some sake.
Now you mentioned that that a abrand that you're very fond of
is Zaku.
So that is what we've got today.
We found a bottle that all threeof us were able to get our
grubby little hands on.
And and honestly, like I'm a bigfan.
(17:26):
So any excuse to get some extraZaku, I'm really excited.
So thank you by the way.
And uh, Tamiya, you want to tellus what we've got today?
Timothy Sullivan (17:34):
it's all right, I'm going to introduce
the stats for this sake.
So as we said, the brand isZaku.
The particular sake we'retasting today is Honotomo
Junmai.
The brewery name again, thisjust rolls off the tongue.
It is Shimizu Seizaoboru Shoten.
(17:55):
How did I do?
Benoit Champagne (17:57):
Almost.
Seizaburo,
Timothy Sullivan (18:04):
Seizaburo Shoten.
Benoit Champagne (18:06):
A japanese.
You're perfect.
Timothy Sullivan (18:09):
And again, this is a Junmai.
The rice variety used here, wehave Yamada Nishiki and Ukon
Nishiki.
And the yeast is associationnumber 1401.
The alcohol percentage is 15%.
Rice polishing is 60%, our SMVis plus 5, and we have an
(18:30):
acidity of 1.
7.
So the next step is for us toopen our bottles and pour this
into our wine glass.
So let's do that now.
John Puma (18:39):
I've got a sake competition silver medal on
mine.
Benoit Champagne (18:43):
Actually, Zaku wins so many competitions, I'm,
even representing them, I have ahard time to keep track of.
John Puma (18:52):
Yeah.
Tim, that was a hearty pour.
Do you like the sake?
Timothy Sullivan (19:04):
It was all for the, it was all for the audio,
John.
I did for the audio.
John Puma (19:09):
All right.
Benoit Champagne (19:11):
That's the perfect
John Puma (19:12):
That's what he says.
But we know the truth.
Yeah,
Timothy Sullivan (19:17):
we do, Benoit, is we look at the color.
We look at it in the glass, andwe'd love to hear your comments
because you're the expert herewith this brand.
Benoit Champagne (19:26):
Actually I would say in a good WSET three
way to say things.
It's a very good pale lemongreen color.
It's not too transparent, butthe, the um, the purity, there's
no there, there's no whatsoeverin wine when you would say
tannins, but like a residues ofrice is really pure really
clear.
Um, I think that's, that wrapsit up for the
John Puma (19:47):
yeah not
Timothy Sullivan (19:48):
perfect.
Let's give it a smell.
Oh wow, that's lovely.
John Puma (19:54):
I think I did.
Benoit Champagne (19:59):
actually they have another product called
Gennotomo, who's brewed reallysimilarly, but they use just a
different yeast.
It's the 701, which is mostlyused in the brewing industry.
But having this 1401, which iscompletely different profile,
you get two sakes that arecompletely different.
(20:20):
Really interesting to comparetogether.
We couldn't find the genotomu inthe U.
S.
For the interview, but I thinkhaving the honotomu is brings
you more into the the lichis, Ithink, if my pronunciation is
correct.
Also the floral, the perhaps alittle vanilla I usually feel.
I don't know if it's if it'scommon to you guys.
(20:41):
I
Timothy Sullivan (20:43):
there's a very subtle perfumed note here, so I
think vanilla ties in with thatvery well.
I get a little bit of a peach,peach aroma as well.
What about for you, John?
This,
John Puma (20:58):
Is my main take away from this.
Timothy Sullivan (21:00):
this was one of those moments where you plant
the thought in John's head andthen
John Puma (21:05):
And I go, Ooh I choose to believe vanilla.
Timothy Sullivan (21:07):
All right.
Let's give it a taste.
Benoit Champagne (21:12):
Could go on and on with
John Puma (21:13):
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (21:14):
it's very sophisticated.
It's very elegant.
And the word that keeps comingto mind is layered.
So it's not a simple,straightforward word.
Flavor.
Or aroma.
There's a lot to explore, butthe whole time it's still very
elegant.
Benoit Champagne (21:36):
My personal liking about this type of
product is actually taking thebalance with a layer of umami.
I don't know if that joins yourthought, but a lot of wine
lovers will go straight up withthe balance on sugar and
acidity.
Whereas when you put the thirdvalue into that balance equation
(22:00):
of umami, of savoriness, Itchanges the whole experience.
And that, I think that's whybecause I don't know if you
realize, but it's brewed like aJunmai Ginjo, but it's a Junmai.
But I think that strong umami isthe reason why it's so obvious.
You get this, you can chew the ythe rice in the sake almost,
(22:20):
even if it's brewed with thatpolishing ratio of 60%.
John Puma (22:24):
That's really nice.
Timothy Sullivan (22:26):
John and I have called a lot of sakes ricey
in the past, and this has atrace of rice flavor through it.
But it's so well integrated andso balanced that I wouldn't call
this a ricey sake, as itsprimary characteristic, but the
umami and the rice is there tobalance the peach and the lychee
(22:50):
fruity flavors, and it's justreally good.
John Puma (22:55):
Yeah, I'm still getting that vanilla that we
talked about earlier, thevanilla aroma.
I get a little bit of the tasteas well, but I also get some
really nice citrus notes.
I can't be more specific,unfortunately, and just not that
developed yet.
And, but that, that, that umami,that riciness pardon the term is
still is present throughout andit's really nice.
(23:16):
It grounds it in an interestingway.
It stops her from getting tooginjo.
Benoit Champagne (23:21):
I'm actually sharing, like, all three of the
tastings about this.
I feel like the longer you keepit in the mouth before
swallowing, I think these peachnotes become a little bit more
obvious coming in the end.
But at first, it's I would be onJohn's side here, and it's like
super like vanilla, lychee,flowers and stuff.
(23:43):
That's what comes to mind.
One funny story, I talked withUchiyama-toji, who's who's the
master brewer behind all theZaku products, and he's a geek
in terms of studying thechemistry behind sake.
And he's a man of few words,like we say.
One question I like to ask Jiis, is what for you is the most
(24:06):
important part in brewing sakebecause.
Most like the traditional way tosay is so the Koji, the moto,
and then the Moromi is in orderthe most important.
But some would say, oh, it'scleaning the rice.
Some would say no, it's thepolishing.
So it's a thought that evolvedwith the modern times and each
have their specific moment.
(24:27):
When I ask Uchiyama-Toji, hejust replied.
filtration.
And he's it's all about themoment when you do the
filtration.
And he never added anythingelse.
For him, it's it's super clear.
You're supposed to understand.
But each time I drink differentZakus, I get this feeling where
(24:48):
like the time where you stop themoromi and the timing until it
gets in the bottle changes somuch the product.
And one good example is theimpression version of the Zaku
series.
So you have the same product,the Honotomo, where you have
just a different bottlingperiod.
But then it becomes almost as ifit was nama, because you have
(25:11):
that bubbly like CO2 feelingremaining in the back.
You have different aromas comingin because of the the ways the
air moves in mouth.
Then I'm like, it's the sameproduct.
It's just a filtration timingdifference.
How can you explain this?
(25:31):
That I, like it's a phrase that,that haunted me since I visited
Zaku last time.
If you have insights about this,feel free to share.
I'm still in the enigma on thatone.
John Puma (25:44):
we're gonna need people to write in on that and
let us know if they've got anythoughts on that.
Timothy Sullivan (25:49):
My only thought on that is that the
timing of, again the stoppingthe fermentation, pressing,
filtering can have a tremendousimpact on the texture of the
sake.
And I think that comes throughwith Zaku really well.
We've talked about the flavorand the aroma, but the texture
is also super elegant.
And it's the perfect balancebetween being a little rich, but
(26:14):
not overdoing it.
So I think my guess would bethat the filtration step is so
important to get that Zakutexture.
Is
Benoit Champagne (26:24):
perhaps leaving it too long as well.
The tendencies to go get it dryand then dilute it to water.
Not doing this, but having theexact moment where you should
have the sake completed in theeyes of the Toji allows you to
get that umami, that absence ofdilution that you need to get
(26:44):
the proper balance in the end.
That, that's, that was my firstconclusion on that.
That saying Mr.
Uchiyama But uh, but again it'sa question of interpretation,
maybe
Timothy Sullivan (26:56):
it's in Mie Prefecture, right?
And is it a large brewery or asmaller brewery?
Benoit Champagne (27:03):
It's actually I think it's production capped,
but it's a small brewery, sothey don't want to increase
their volume anymore.
They're satisfied with what theyhave, and they want to just
improve the quality of eachbottles.
But the city where it is, it'scalled Suzuka.
It's right in the middle of yourway to go to Ise Jingu, where
(27:27):
famous sun goddess Amaterasu isenshrined.
Timothy Sullivan (27:31):
Yeah, is it a cult sake in Japan?
Benoit Champagne (27:35):
What do you mean by cult sake?
Sake.
Timothy Sullivan (27:40):
in English when we say cult sake, we mean a
sake that is a little bit harderto get and a lot of people want
it and people like hunt it downand really search for it.
And it's a object of desire forsake nerds.
Benoit Champagne (27:56):
It feels like so because of the the
unabundance of production.
But if you just take a step inSuzuka, which is not really far
from Nagoya I think it's a 30minute ish by train then you
have zaku.
Anywhere.
They really promote their sakelocally, they make sure it's
(28:17):
there.
John Puma (28:17):
One of my
Benoit Champagne (28:19):
But still, being local and like, inaka, so
like, um, countryside, they'restill accessible via Nagoya,
which is one of the biggestcities in Japan.
Really easy to get access to.
Timothy Sullivan (28:33):
Alright.
Benoit, I feel like I learned alot about Zaku and about what's
going on in Quebec, Canada forsake distribution right now.
I really have to say, Iappreciate your dedication to
spreading the word of sake undersomewhat challenging conditions
there.
Before we wrap up, I want tomake sure our listeners can
(28:56):
learn more about your work andwhat you're doing in Canada.
Can you share any websites orsocial media where people can
learn more?
And
Benoit Champagne (29:05):
Yeah, sure.
Nijikaisake.com is basicallywhere I do my things.
I have the Instagram, same nameof course non French speakers is
going to be harsh, but I answerin English, no trouble.
As for my work it's mostly uh,training, assisting translating
all that's to know about sake,but uh, I'm also As a small fan
(29:26):
myself of Japanese culture, I'mbringing in the famous Tsugaru
Bidoro, the handmade glass fromAomori, the chopsticks from
Fukui called Style of Japan, soI'm bringing in some collector's
items here and then.
That's also very nice to see onInstagram if you want to enjoy.
John Puma (29:49):
Nice.
That's awesome.
Timothy Sullivan (29:51):
before we go, I have to ask you one other
quick question.
Your last name is Champagne.
Have you, if you had to choose,would you choose a bottle of
champagne or a bottle ofsparkling sake?
Benoit Champagne (30:02):
I'm a converted.
I'm a converted.
I only have sakes in my fridge.
Timothy Sullivan (30:07):
Yes.
All right.
Benoit Champagne (30:12):
right now I don't have a single wine bottle
or beer bottle in my fridge, butI have at least 50 sakes.
Timothy Sullivan (30:18):
All right.
John Puma (30:19):
Fifty.
That's right.
Benoit Champagne (30:21):
At least.
At least.
Timothy Sullivan (30:24):
All right.
That was the correct answer, bythe way.
All right.
Thank you.
Benoit, thank you so much forjoining us.
It was a pleasure to talk to youand I hope you'll come back
another time.
Benoit Champagne (30:34):
Of course, it's always a pleasure to talk
to you, even when you're inMontreal, come and say hi.
It's always a pleasure to talkto you guys.
John Puma (30:42):
I'll have to get over to Montreal sometime.
Timothy Sullivan (30:44):
Yeah.
And so thank you, Benoit.
And I want to thank ourlisteners as well.
Thanks everyone today for tuningin to Sake Revolution.
Now we're a listener supportedshow, and if you would like to
show your support for SakeRevolution, the best way to
support us right now is to joinour community on Patreon.
If you'd like to learn more,please visit
(31:04):
Patreon.com/SakeRevolution.
John Puma (31:08):
And another way that you can Support us.
If you have a moment is to goover and leave us a review at
Apple podcast, Spotify, charm,whatever platform you're
listening to our show on, goover there and tell people what
you think it's going to bring upa little bit of awareness about
our show, which we really doappreciate.
So on that note, please grabyour glasses.
(31:31):
Remember to keep drinking sakeand Kanpai.
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution.
This is America's first sakepodcast.
I'm your host, John Puma fromthe Sake Notes, also
administrator over at theInternet Sake Discord, and I
also run the Reddit r slash sakecommunity.
Timothy Sullivan (00:36):
And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan.
I'm a Sake Samurai.
I'm the director of education atthe Sake Studies Center, as well
as the founder of the Urban Sakewebsite.
And every week, John and I willbe here tasting and chatting
about all things sake and doingour best to make it fun and easy
to understand.
John Puma (00:54):
That's right, Tim, and thank you for coming by for
yet another week.
I don't know how I lured youinto this.
You keep coming back no matterwhat I do.
It's pretty impressive.
Mm
Timothy (01:06):
Well, John, I'm so excited to welcome another
guest.
We're going another interviewthis week, but we're starting a
series of interviewing nonJapanese people who have worked
at Japanese sake Breweriesbefore.
I think I'm someone who's donethat, and I'm always interested
(01:26):
to learn people's motivation totake on that pretty challenging
task for themselves.
John Puma (01:32):
Yeah, one might, one might say you were probably the
first guest on our show in thatseries.
We just didn't know it yet.
And we also have to workshopthat name.
I think that people who workedat sake breweries, it just
doesn't roll off the tongue.
but you know, we'll, we'llfigure that out.
And hopefully maybe our guestshave some ideas and we can, we
can, bounce a few off.
Uh, so Tim, can you introducethis wonderful person that is in
(01:54):
the chat with us right now?
Timothy Sullivan (01:55):
Yes, I'm so happy to introduce my friend,
Benoit Champagne.
He is a Thank you.
consultant and owns a company inQuebec, Canada, called Nijikai
Sake.
He's an advisor for brewers whowant to export to Canada.
And he's lived in Japan and hasa tremendous story.
(02:16):
So I'm so excited to welcomeBenoit to the podcast.
Welcome, Benoit.
Benoit Champagne (02:22):
Hi Timothy.
Hi John.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
It's really nice you thoughtabout inviting me.
It's a really high privilege.
I love your podcast and I hopewe're going to have a fun time
talking sake
John Puma (02:34):
today oh, so you've listened to us before then.
Benoit Champagne (02:36):
Of course I did.
John Puma (02:37):
Oh, wow.
Now the pressure's on.
Benoit Champagne (02:40):
It's not my native tongue, but my native
language, but I love listeningto you guys and I hope you're
not going to be too rough on mylanguage skills
John Puma (02:50):
no, you sound great.
Timothy Sullivan (02:50):
Absolutely.
I can't wait any longer.
I have to ask you about a couplethings on your resume here.
We want to find out how you gotinto sake, how you wound up in
Japan.
And one of the things on yourresume here that caught my eye
is that you have a Toji Guildcertificate from the Nambu Toji
(03:12):
Guild.
Super interested to hear aboutthat.
So please give us a bit of yourbackground.
How did you get into sake andhow did you get to Japan?
Benoit Champagne (03:21):
Well, actually it's a long story.
I'm try, I'm gonna try to resumeit, but, I was a student from
the MBU Kaga show.
It's a scholarship, the Japanesegovernment gives to students who
are studying their researchprogram or their master degrees.
And I was in Niigata, which isthe capital of Sake.
I'm sure.
Uh,, Timothy is a, great, lover
John Puma (03:42):
I'm surrounded.
Benoit Champagne (03:45):
And perhaps more than half of my friends
were having this part-time jobin a Sake brewer near, the
university or near theirhometown.
And they were inviting me, in,in their breweries to just
experience the culture aroundit.
And that's how I went to, to thesake industry.
And now today, not s I'm sorry,but, the brewery where I was
(04:09):
hired is Urakasumi, which is notin in Niigata, but it's a
brewery that I approach becauseI'm a huge fan of the Urakasumi
Zen products that perhaps mostof, our listeners are already
know about.
And and through Urakasumi, Iparticipated in this brewing
program, the Nanbu Toji program,which is the biggest guild of of
(04:30):
brewers in Japan.
And one funny story about thisis that my my boss at the time,
Mr.
Saura, he he did not expect meto to pass the certification
because it's I don't know if youalready know it, Timothy or
John, but, Passing a nanbutouji,it's 70 percent pass and 30
percent fail.
Now, I was really thinking Iwould be in the 30 percent
(04:54):
because of my Japanese, but Idon't know how, but I got the
certificate, so I'm reallyhappy, and I'm really proud of
of this, and now I'm a Nanbutoji brewer.
Not a toji, but a brewer.
John Puma (05:07):
you got to start somewhere.
Benoit Champagne (05:08):
Of course.
Timothy Sullivan (05:09):
that is amazing.
And that was all in Japanese,right?
The exam and the instruction.
Benoit Champagne (05:14):
Exactly.
There's actually a rule in NambuToji where you are not allowed
to write in Hiragana orKatakana, so you have to write
your answers in kanji.
Timothy Sullivan (05:23):
Oh my God.
Wow.
John Puma (05:27):
Tim, have you ever done that?
Timothy Sullivan (05:28):
no.
no.
I didn't even, this is onanother level.
I cannot even
John Puma (05:36):
That, this concept fills me with terror.
I'll tell you that right now.
Timothy Sullivan (05:40):
that is so absolutely impressive.
So you started working forUrakasumi and you did only
brewing work or what was yourwork at the brewery?
Benoit Champagne (05:50):
At first they thought, as a foreigner It's
more it's actually needed toknow some brewing skills in
order to introduce sake to theforeign market.
So I did more than half a yearin the brewery before going
abroad.
But actually, I think all peopleat Urakasumi thought from that
(06:12):
point it's not a matter of beinga foreigner or being a Japanese.
Perhaps every salesman shouldactually brew sake before going
on the road, which I totallyagree on.
A new learning that they madethrough hiring me and a learning
that I made through being hiredby them.
John Puma (06:28):
Wow.
That's pretty cool.
I like that and that's like agood, method.
I think it's a good idea.
So I'm glad that they came tothat conclusion to I think more,
maybe more breweries shouldadopt that.
I like that a lot.
Benoit Champagne (06:39):
A lot of foreigners are starting to
actually get this brewingexperience.
It's actually great too,
John Puma (06:44):
yeah, we're seeing it more and more.
So when, getting into sake, weall have our moment.
We all have that moment wherethe sake speaks to us and we
have the aha.
This is the beverage.
Tell us about your aha moment.
Benoit Champagne (06:58):
I think it was when I visited an Niigata
brewery.
It's called Imayatsukasa, whichyou probably know.
But there's this moment wherethe Kuramoto just opened a tank
and he he threw at us with thethe tank cover a draft of air of
smelling uh, fermented sake.
And I was like.
Oh, I like that smell.
(07:20):
This is for me.
So I think that was the moment.
I don't know for you if you havea particular one each or
anything.
Timothy Sullivan (07:28):
That's great.
I think you're our first convertto sake by smell,
John Puma (07:32):
Yeah, I think so.
That's amazing though.
That's pretty great.
Timothy Sullivan (07:38):
but I've had that experience too, where a
brewer lifts the lid off thetank and waves it, and like this
waft of ginjo aroma just smacksyou in the face.
That's awesome.
John Puma (07:49):
Yeah, I think that if you weren't, if you weren't a
sake fan going into a situationlike that, once you have that,
it's like, you can't, how couldyou not?
How could somebody not love sakeafter that?
Benoit Champagne (07:58):
Running on what Timothy said, I think that
draft of Ginjo aroma is it'ssuper hard to describe, but once
you have it, you're like, okay,that's what ginjoka is.
You don't need a wine glass tofeel it anymore.
You understand?
John Puma (08:11):
I agree.
I totally agree.
Timothy Sullivan (08:14):
we'd love to pick up where your story left
off in Urakasumi Brewery.
So you're working there, you didyour training, you worked
probably both in sales and as abrewer, is that right?
Benoit Champagne (08:26):
In my last years, of course, when COVID
hit, it was a bit different, butI was mostly on the road, so
two, three, four countries eachmonth.
That's harsh on the jet lag.
It's a constant jet lag.
But I came actually back toCanada, not because of any
problem in Japan is just afamily reasons.
So I'm really still attached alot to Urakasumi.
(08:49):
I'm still I'm, they're still mycustomers, so I still help them
with representation Canada, andit's still a product I have in
cases at home in my cellar,
John Puma (08:59):
That's nice.
Timothy Sullivan (09:02):
That's awesome.
So you wound up back in Canada.
Can you explain a little bit?
About the company you started in2022, Nijikai Sake, what you're
doing there in Quebec and howyou're helping brewers to export
sake.
Benoit Champagne (09:19):
At first when I came back, I saw there are so
many people trying to get sakein, but with state's monopoly, I
don't know if our listeners knowabout this, but Since it's state
controlled, there's a reallyhigh conservatism into going to
new beverages.
Quebec is actually 10 to 20years late on the United States
(09:42):
market as of now.
I thought if there's so manypeople trying to get in it,
Inside the country and still noways to actually buy it, having
one or more player coming in isnot going to help anyone.
I thought the best way tocontribute to the industry as a
whole was to advise people,especially on how to come to a
(10:07):
market like Quebec, whereeverybody thinks it's in
English, but there's like Frenchrules governing.
Thanks.
you're labeling, so you need tohave the language skills to get
into the market and get the lawsdone.
So the idea was actually tosupport breweries first, and
then educate the market second,towards the understanding of
(10:29):
sake.
And it's actually been reallyreally good in the past two
years.
Never ran out of of work, likewe say.
John Puma (10:37):
That's a good thing.
I think that's great.
So you mentioned that over inQuebec, you've got a very,
you've got a state run thingwhich is a, it's a case of some
states here in the U.
S.
as well.
New York is not one of those,but I guess what are the I guess
the pros and cons of that.
Obviously some of the cons arethat you're beholden to them and
you're things will be, there'llbe slow bringing new things to
(10:59):
market, but there are anybenefits to the system or is it
just something that that, thatgets in the way sometimes?
Benoit Champagne (11:06):
I would say from a state's perspective, yes,
there's, there are benefits.
If you look at the systems likein in Scandinavia, they they're
actually managed by by thehealth ministry.
So it's a way to control howalcohol is managed through the
health system in thosecountries.
In Canada, it's the economic theMinistry of Finance.
(11:28):
It's more about making money.
That is the objective.
So if the States makes money outof alcohol sales, they actually
finance the education systems,the healthcare indirectly, etc.
From a brewer's perspective, thebig merit out of this is if you
have one customer to manage fora whole area like this, They buy
(11:51):
a lot at one order, so it'sreally easy shipments once you
get your your road going.
However, starting is the harshpart.
It can take years to be able toget into the market.
And perhaps one of the huge consis that they manage sake like
they man like they manage wine,so they don't know about the
(12:13):
refrigeration part.
John Puma (12:14):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Benoit Champagne (12:15):
We cannot and we will never have namazake in
the next, perhaps, 20 to 30years unless they change this.
We cannot have super highquality Junmai, Daiginjo
preserved as it was in Japan.
We need to make sacrifices onquality, which is a huge cons
that we have both in Ontario andQuebec, I think.
John Puma (12:35):
Wow.
Oh, wow.
Timothy Sullivan (12:37):
What's the experience like for a consumer
to buy sake in Quebec?
Are the liquor stores run by thegovernment?
How does that work?
If I'm just a person on thestreet and I want to go buy a
bottle of sake, what's that
Benoit Champagne (12:50):
oh, it's there's a lot of stores in
Quebec, so for the population, Ithink there's 450 ish stores.
Around the territory for justDSAQ in Quebec.
So it's really easy to go getthe bottles that are available,
or you can also do the onlinepurchase, which is also very
(13:11):
easy.
However, to get a good choice onwhat you have, it's always the
same products that's going to bethere.
And it's mostly the same brands.
I think more than half of thesakes are managed by three
national brands.
And actually, COVID was positivein some ways because they
relaxed the rules into thebottle sellings, making
(13:35):
restaurants being able to tosell just to sell bottles by
themselves.
Of course, they have to buythrough the the state monopoly,
but they can choose what theywant to buy through different
agencies, and so they are theone who are mostly providing the
good quality stuff, the the goto sake bottles so it's most of
(13:58):
the agents have their Take theirrestaurants listing where you
know where the bottle shops are,you orient the customer towards
them and not towards themonopoly, most of the time.
John Puma (14:10):
So you already mentioned that you've you that
you still have a Urakasumi closeto your heart But who else do
you represent over there?
Who else do you do business withso to speak?
Benoit Champagne (14:20):
The company that actually encouraged me the
most and to which I'm going tobe forever grateful is Zaku.
Shimizu Seizaburo Shoten,located in Mie.
And I actually knocked at theirdoor first when I started my
business and say, you know, I ama huge fan of your sakes.
And I actually already soldaround the world with the
(14:42):
Shimizu couple, which are solovely.
They're perhaps one of the besthuman beings I know.
and they actually said yes, andin a week, they're like, yes,
help us promote sake, help uspromote the Mie culture as a
whole.
And and yes I'm very proud torepresent them since two years
now.
I'm also working withNihonsakari recently I've
(15:04):
started working with HeavenSake.
There's also the world's bestsommelier, who's also a
Quebecer, a friend of mine, soI'm helping him with his sake
brands, Essence 5 and TanakaChartier.
So a lot of brands here and thento promote, and they all became
(15:28):
more friends than customers,actually, over the years, I
think.
I all have them close to myheart now.
John Puma (15:34):
Oh, that's awesome
Timothy Sullivan (15:35):
That's great.
You mentioned that you helpbrewers in Japan kind of
position themselves for theCanadian market.
But what, you also mentionededucation, which I'm really
interested in, what type ofeducation do you do?
And, And how does that happen?
Benoit Champagne (15:50):
Everyone knows about Michael Tremblay.
Everyone knows about JohnGauntner, which are kind of
mentors to me in terms of sakepromotion.
And I realized in Quebec,there's no such thing as sake
education for professionals.
So if you speak English, or ifEnglish is a harsh language for
you, it's hard to get grasp onthe crucial information you
(16:12):
need, because it's mostly inJapanese or in English.
I started this year to to give avery advanced sake professional
course in Quebec.
Which was actually a very goodsuccess in April when I first
gave it.
And now I'm doing the secondsemester in September.
So we are going through all thebrewing process all the service
(16:33):
methods.
I already heard in one of yourpodcasts how you you were
talking about the etiquette ofsake sake service.
So this is my pleasure to see mystudents.
Do it do it in their stores,right?
So there's a microbrewery calledIle de Galles in Montreal, and
they all took my class and eachtime I go in and grab a beer
with them, they're getting theirbuck lower than mine and say,
(16:56):
Oh, look, I can do it myselfnow.
I am very impressed about yourmodesty.
John Puma (17:05):
Great.
I think that is a wonderful timeto take a moment here and let's
taste some sake.
Now you mentioned that that a abrand that you're very fond of
is Zaku.
So that is what we've got today.
We found a bottle that all threeof us were able to get our
grubby little hands on.
And and honestly, like I'm a bigfan.
(17:26):
So any excuse to get some extraZaku, I'm really excited.
So thank you by the way.
And uh, Tamiya, you want to tellus what we've got today?
Timothy Sullivan (17:34):
it's all right, I'm going to introduce
the stats for this sake.
So as we said, the brand isZaku.
The particular sake we'retasting today is Honotomo
Junmai.
The brewery name again, thisjust rolls off the tongue.
It is Shimizu Seizaoboru Shoten.
(17:55):
How did I do?
Benoit Champagne (17:57):
Almost.
Seizaburo,
Timothy Sullivan (18:04):
Seizaburo Shoten.
Benoit Champagne (18:06):
A japanese.
You're perfect.
Timothy Sullivan (18:09):
And again, this is a Junmai.
The rice variety used here, wehave Yamada Nishiki and Ukon
Nishiki.
And the yeast is associationnumber 1401.
The alcohol percentage is 15%.
Rice polishing is 60%, our SMVis plus 5, and we have an
(18:30):
acidity of 1.
7.
So the next step is for us toopen our bottles and pour this
into our wine glass.
So let's do that now.
John Puma (18:39):
I've got a sake competition silver medal on
mine.
Benoit Champagne (18:43):
Actually, Zaku wins so many competitions, I'm,
even representing them, I have ahard time to keep track of.
John Puma (18:52):
Yeah.
Tim, that was a hearty pour.
Do you like the sake?
Timothy Sullivan (19:04):
It was all for the, it was all for the audio,
John.
I did for the audio.
John Puma (19:09):
All right.
Benoit Champagne (19:11):
That's the perfect
John Puma (19:12):
That's what he says.
But we know the truth.
Yeah,
Timothy Sullivan (19:17):
we do, Benoit, is we look at the color.
We look at it in the glass, andwe'd love to hear your comments
because you're the expert herewith this brand.
Benoit Champagne (19:26):
Actually I would say in a good WSET three
way to say things.
It's a very good pale lemongreen color.
It's not too transparent, butthe, the um, the purity, there's
no there, there's no whatsoeverin wine when you would say
tannins, but like a residues ofrice is really pure really
clear.
Um, I think that's, that wrapsit up for the
John Puma (19:47):
yeah not
Timothy Sullivan (19:48):
perfect.
Let's give it a smell.
Oh wow, that's lovely.
John Puma (19:54):
I think I did.
Benoit Champagne (19:59):
actually they have another product called
Gennotomo, who's brewed reallysimilarly, but they use just a
different yeast.
It's the 701, which is mostlyused in the brewing industry.
But having this 1401, which iscompletely different profile,
you get two sakes that arecompletely different.
(20:20):
Really interesting to comparetogether.
We couldn't find the genotomu inthe U.
S.
For the interview, but I thinkhaving the honotomu is brings
you more into the the lichis, Ithink, if my pronunciation is
correct.
Also the floral, the perhaps alittle vanilla I usually feel.
I don't know if it's if it'scommon to you guys.
(20:41):
I
Timothy Sullivan (20:43):
there's a very subtle perfumed note here, so I
think vanilla ties in with thatvery well.
I get a little bit of a peach,peach aroma as well.
What about for you, John?
This,
John Puma (20:58):
Is my main take away from this.
Timothy Sullivan (21:00):
this was one of those moments where you plant
the thought in John's head andthen
John Puma (21:05):
And I go, Ooh I choose to believe vanilla.
Timothy Sullivan (21:07):
All right.
Let's give it a taste.
Benoit Champagne (21:12):
Could go on and on with
John Puma (21:13):
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (21:14):
it's very sophisticated.
It's very elegant.
And the word that keeps comingto mind is layered.
So it's not a simple,straightforward word.
Flavor.
Or aroma.
There's a lot to explore, butthe whole time it's still very
elegant.
Benoit Champagne (21:36):
My personal liking about this type of
product is actually taking thebalance with a layer of umami.
I don't know if that joins yourthought, but a lot of wine
lovers will go straight up withthe balance on sugar and
acidity.
Whereas when you put the thirdvalue into that balance equation
(22:00):
of umami, of savoriness, Itchanges the whole experience.
And that, I think that's whybecause I don't know if you
realize, but it's brewed like aJunmai Ginjo, but it's a Junmai.
But I think that strong umami isthe reason why it's so obvious.
You get this, you can chew the ythe rice in the sake almost,
(22:20):
even if it's brewed with thatpolishing ratio of 60%.
John Puma (22:24):
That's really nice.
Timothy Sullivan (22:26):
John and I have called a lot of sakes ricey
in the past, and this has atrace of rice flavor through it.
But it's so well integrated andso balanced that I wouldn't call
this a ricey sake, as itsprimary characteristic, but the
umami and the rice is there tobalance the peach and the lychee
(22:50):
fruity flavors, and it's justreally good.
John Puma (22:55):
Yeah, I'm still getting that vanilla that we
talked about earlier, thevanilla aroma.
I get a little bit of the tasteas well, but I also get some
really nice citrus notes.
I can't be more specific,unfortunately, and just not that
developed yet.
And, but that, that, that umami,that riciness pardon the term is
still is present throughout andit's really nice.
(23:16):
It grounds it in an interestingway.
It stops her from getting tooginjo.
Benoit Champagne (23:21):
I'm actually sharing, like, all three of the
tastings about this.
I feel like the longer you keepit in the mouth before
swallowing, I think these peachnotes become a little bit more
obvious coming in the end.
But at first, it's I would be onJohn's side here, and it's like
super like vanilla, lychee,flowers and stuff.
(23:43):
That's what comes to mind.
One funny story, I talked withUchiyama-toji, who's who's the
master brewer behind all theZaku products, and he's a geek
in terms of studying thechemistry behind sake.
And he's a man of few words,like we say.
One question I like to ask Jiis, is what for you is the most
(24:06):
important part in brewing sakebecause.
Most like the traditional way tosay is so the Koji, the moto,
and then the Moromi is in orderthe most important.
But some would say, oh, it'scleaning the rice.
Some would say no, it's thepolishing.
So it's a thought that evolvedwith the modern times and each
have their specific moment.
(24:27):
When I ask Uchiyama-Toji, hejust replied.
filtration.
And he's it's all about themoment when you do the
filtration.
And he never added anythingelse.
For him, it's it's super clear.
You're supposed to understand.
But each time I drink differentZakus, I get this feeling where
(24:48):
like the time where you stop themoromi and the timing until it
gets in the bottle changes somuch the product.
And one good example is theimpression version of the Zaku
series.
So you have the same product,the Honotomo, where you have
just a different bottlingperiod.
But then it becomes almost as ifit was nama, because you have
(25:11):
that bubbly like CO2 feelingremaining in the back.
You have different aromas comingin because of the the ways the
air moves in mouth.
Then I'm like, it's the sameproduct.
It's just a filtration timingdifference.
How can you explain this?
(25:31):
That I, like it's a phrase that,that haunted me since I visited
Zaku last time.
If you have insights about this,feel free to share.
I'm still in the enigma on thatone.
John Puma (25:44):
we're gonna need people to write in on that and
let us know if they've got anythoughts on that.
Timothy Sullivan (25:49):
My only thought on that is that the
timing of, again the stoppingthe fermentation, pressing,
filtering can have a tremendousimpact on the texture of the
sake.
And I think that comes throughwith Zaku really well.
We've talked about the flavorand the aroma, but the texture
is also super elegant.
And it's the perfect balancebetween being a little rich, but
(26:14):
not overdoing it.
So I think my guess would bethat the filtration step is so
important to get that Zakutexture.
Is
Benoit Champagne (26:24):
perhaps leaving it too long as well.
The tendencies to go get it dryand then dilute it to water.
Not doing this, but having theexact moment where you should
have the sake completed in theeyes of the Toji allows you to
get that umami, that absence ofdilution that you need to get
(26:44):
the proper balance in the end.
That, that's, that was my firstconclusion on that.
That saying Mr.
Uchiyama But uh, but again it'sa question of interpretation,
maybe
Timothy Sullivan (26:56):
it's in Mie Prefecture, right?
And is it a large brewery or asmaller brewery?
Benoit Champagne (27:03):
It's actually I think it's production capped,
but it's a small brewery, sothey don't want to increase
their volume anymore.
They're satisfied with what theyhave, and they want to just
improve the quality of eachbottles.
But the city where it is, it'scalled Suzuka.
It's right in the middle of yourway to go to Ise Jingu, where
(27:27):
famous sun goddess Amaterasu isenshrined.
Timothy Sullivan (27:31):
Yeah, is it a cult sake in Japan?
Benoit Champagne (27:35):
What do you mean by cult sake?
Sake.
Timothy Sullivan (27:40):
in English when we say cult sake, we mean a
sake that is a little bit harderto get and a lot of people want
it and people like hunt it downand really search for it.
And it's a object of desire forsake nerds.
Benoit Champagne (27:56):
It feels like so because of the the
unabundance of production.
But if you just take a step inSuzuka, which is not really far
from Nagoya I think it's a 30minute ish by train then you
have zaku.
Anywhere.
They really promote their sakelocally, they make sure it's
(28:17):
there.
John Puma (28:17):
One of my
Benoit Champagne (28:19):
But still, being local and like, inaka, so
like, um, countryside, they'restill accessible via Nagoya,
which is one of the biggestcities in Japan.
Really easy to get access to.
Timothy Sullivan (28:33):
Alright.
Benoit, I feel like I learned alot about Zaku and about what's
going on in Quebec, Canada forsake distribution right now.
I really have to say, Iappreciate your dedication to
spreading the word of sake undersomewhat challenging conditions
there.
Before we wrap up, I want tomake sure our listeners can
(28:56):
learn more about your work andwhat you're doing in Canada.
Can you share any websites orsocial media where people can
learn more?
And
Benoit Champagne (29:05):
Yeah, sure.
Nijikaisake.com is basicallywhere I do my things.
I have the Instagram, same nameof course non French speakers is
going to be harsh, but I answerin English, no trouble.
As for my work it's mostly uh,training, assisting translating
all that's to know about sake,but uh, I'm also As a small fan
(29:26):
myself of Japanese culture, I'mbringing in the famous Tsugaru
Bidoro, the handmade glass fromAomori, the chopsticks from
Fukui called Style of Japan, soI'm bringing in some collector's
items here and then.
That's also very nice to see onInstagram if you want to enjoy.
John Puma (29:49):
Nice.
That's awesome.
Timothy Sullivan (29:51):
before we go, I have to ask you one other
quick question.
Your last name is Champagne.
Have you, if you had to choose,would you choose a bottle of
champagne or a bottle ofsparkling sake?
Benoit Champagne (30:02):
I'm a converted.
I'm a converted.
I only have sakes in my fridge.
Timothy Sullivan (30:07):
Yes.
All right.
Benoit Champagne (30:12):
right now I don't have a single wine bottle
or beer bottle in my fridge, butI have at least 50 sakes.
Timothy Sullivan (30:18):
All right.
John Puma (30:19):
Fifty.
That's right.
Benoit Champagne (30:21):
At least.
At least.
Timothy Sullivan (30:24):
All right.
That was the correct answer, bythe way.
All right.
Thank you.
Benoit, thank you so much forjoining us.
It was a pleasure to talk to youand I hope you'll come back
another time.
Benoit Champagne (30:34):
Of course, it's always a pleasure to talk
to you, even when you're inMontreal, come and say hi.
It's always a pleasure to talkto you guys.
John Puma (30:42):
I'll have to get over to Montreal sometime.
Timothy Sullivan (30:44):
Yeah.
And so thank you, Benoit.
And I want to thank ourlisteners as well.
Thanks everyone today for tuningin to Sake Revolution.
Now we're a listener supportedshow, and if you would like to
show your support for SakeRevolution, the best way to
support us right now is to joinour community on Patreon.
If you'd like to learn more,please visit
(31:04):
Patreon.com/SakeRevolution.
John Puma (31:08):
And another way that you can Support us.
If you have a moment is to goover and leave us a review at
Apple podcast, Spotify, charm,whatever platform you're
listening to our show on, goover there and tell people what
you think it's going to bring upa little bit of awareness about
our show, which we really doappreciate.
So on that note, please grabyour glasses.
(31:31):
Remember to keep drinking sakeand Kanpai.
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