May 11, 2025 • 32 mins
Episode 178. In this episode join John and Timothy as they interview Keith Norum. Keith is a well known figure in the sake industry and he has represented the Masumi brand of sake since 2005. Keith tells us his story of getting to Japan and finding his way to the world of sake. What's it like working at a traditional Japanese sake brewery? Keith gives us a peek behind the noren! Together we all taste one of the most popular Masumi sakes in the market outside Japan - Masumi Shiro Junmai Ginjo - a light and breezy delight! Join us and listen in as we chat with our good buddy in Nagano! #SakeRevolution
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Episode Transcript
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John Puma (00:21):
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution.
This is America's first sakepodcast I am one of your hosts
John Puma.
I'm from the Sake Notes Also theadministrator over at the
internet sake Discord andReddit's r Slash sake community
Timothy Sullivan (00:39):
And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan.
I'm a sake samurai.
I'm the director of education atthe Sake Studies Center, as well
as the founder of the Urban Sakewebsite.
And every week, John and I willbe here tasting and chatting
about all things sake and doingour best to make it fun and easy
to understand.
John Puma (00:56):
Well, hello, Tim.
Timothy Sullivan (00:58):
Hello, John.
I'm so excited.
John Puma (01:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've noticed, We are in themidst of our series that has yet
to be named, where we talk topeople who have had, uh,
experience working at Japanesesake breweries.
Now, Tim, who is this man thatis in our zoom?
Timothy Sullivan (01:16):
I am so excited to welcome our friend
Keith Norum.
He's the Director ofInternational Sales at Masumi
Sake Brewery from NaganoPrefecture.
Now, John, you and I havefeatured Masumi and we've talked
about Nagano several times onthe podcast.
And when we decided to start aseries where we interview people
(01:36):
who've worked at Japanese sakebreweries.
Keith's name popped right to thetop of my list.
John Puma (01:44):
He might be like the second or third person we
mentioned.
I think
Timothy Sullivan (01:47):
Keith,
Keith Norum (01:47):
I allowed to laugh now?
John Puma (01:49):
you are totally allowed to laugh now.
Timothy Sullivan (01:51):
Keith, we are so excited to welcome you to
Sake Revolution and, uh,welcome.
We're so happy to have you here.
Keith Norum (02:00):
Well, thank you, Timothy.
Good to see you.
John, what a nice surprise andwhat a pleasure and an honor to,
to podcast with you guys.
I'm really excited and thank youfor, for asking me.
Um, I'm sure there are a lot ofvery interesting sake stories
out there and I'm not one ofthem.
I'm one of the more boring.
One of the boring stories, butat least you get through those
(02:22):
and you can go on to more, morescintillating, uh, content.
John Puma (02:26):
Oh my goodness.
I don't know.
What kind of show
Keith Norum (02:28):
But I'm, but I'm, I'm happy, I'm happy to fill the
air with some stories and thatsort of thing.
John Puma (02:33):
Wonderful.
We're very glad to have you.
Timothy Sullivan (02:36):
before you fill the air with stories,
Keith, I have to fill the airwith one of my stories.
I want to go back in time to thefirst time I ever met you, Keith
Norum, I looked it up.
I went to the deepest, darkestarchives of urban sake, and I
found the first time that Iencountered you.
(02:59):
It was at Sakagura restauranthere in New York on May 15th,
2006.
Uh, this was less than, this wasless
John Puma (03:07):
I gotta say on May 15th,
Timothy Sullivan (03:10):
yes.
John Puma (03:11):
I had, had my first drink of sake about one month
before that.
Timothy Sullivan (03:15):
Yeah.
And I had had my first drink ofsake about one year before
John Puma (03:18):
Yeah.,
Timothy Sullivan (03:18):
Keith was doing a Masumi night at Sakagura
restaurant, and you had, uh,Nasutoji.
Yes.
Keith Norum (03:27):
Sakagura and May, I was thinking that might've been
the first time that Nasu-tojiand I visited New York city.
Was that right?
That was the first time for him.
Timothy Sullivan (03:36):
Yes.
And I remember saying goodbye toyou, shaking your hand, and
saying to you, gosh, I, how doyou get to do what you're doing?
Like, this, your job of,Traveling and introducing sake
just from that point in my sakejourney sounded like the coolest
(03:57):
thing in the whole world.
And here we are, all these yearslater, and I just wanted to let
you know that I think of thatmoment regularly and, you are
such an inspiration and, uh, itwas just such, such a fond
memory and it was fun to rereadthat blog post today.
I'll put a link to it in theshow
John Puma (04:15):
Oh, that's
Keith Norum (04:16):
Oh, really?
Okay.
That was before Snapchat, sothings don't disappear in the
air,
Timothy Sullivan (04:22):
do not disappear on Urban Sake.
John Puma (04:26):
Ah, the age of blogs.
I remember those days fondly.
Keith Norum (04:30):
Timothy, that's so kind of you to say that and to
remember that.
I also remember meeting youthere, I just didn't remember
the year.
It's funny how the pandemic hasmessed up pretty much
everybody's recollection ofyears.
John Puma (04:45):
Mm hmm.
Keith Norum (04:46):
I just, I, I can never place anything properly
anymore, but I also remember,meeting you and I remember you
mentioning that you're doing ablog about sake, which I was
fascinated to hear about.
and so I felt like These guysare really into this.
they're not just messing aroundand sort of a fun night with
(05:07):
some strange alcohol.
So I was really impressed fromthe very beginning.
John Puma (05:13):
that's pretty cool.
I didn't realize you guys, uh,went back that far.
I met Keith at the end of a Joyof Sake event with very fuzzy
memory because it was the end ofa Joy of Sake
Keith Norum (05:22):
Oh yeah,
John Puma (05:23):
But I, I think think that my, my wife, Myshell had
met you earlier in the night.
Or near the end of it and waslike you have she came over to
me.
She's like you gotta meet KeithCame over i'm like who's Keith
And she's like this is Keith andyou're telling you introduce
yourself and I was like, oh, Ilove Masumi.
This is great
Keith Norum (05:40):
Good on Myshell typically, she's on it and goes,
okay, well, if I don't get Johnover here, he's going to be
totally blotto and it won'thappen.
So she got you on the leashbefore that could happen.
That's good.
John Puma (05:55):
Yeah, she's good like that
Keith Norum (05:57):
oh.
Timothy Sullivan (05:58):
according to my extensive research, Keith,
you You joined Miyasaka JozoMiyasaka Brewery, makers of
Masumi, full time in June of2005 as the head of overseas
operation.
Uh, can you give us a quick, uh,summary of how you wound up in
Japan and how you connectedwith, um, Masumi?
Keith Norum (06:23):
That's a tough order.
Uh, quick, quick is the hardpart.
Okay.
But, Well, first, how I ended upin Japan.
I actually came to Japan in1990.
it was still bubble time in
John Puma (06:38):
Yeah.
Keith Norum (06:39):
And I had, stepped out of graduate school.
and decided not to pursue theacademic career that I was in
graduate school for, and, uh, Ihad a really, really important
reason to go to Japan instead.
Partly, work.
Japan was booming and so therewere, plenty of opportunities to
(07:01):
find something to do there.
And I was also married to aJapanese woman, wonderful woman,
Michiko.
We were married in the Statesand, I felt it was time to turn
the tables.
So, there were two Ws, there waswork and there was a woman
involved with my decision tomove to Japan in 1990.
John Puma (07:19):
Hmm.
Keith Norum (07:21):
very shortly after we moved, we moved to Shizuoka,
because that's where herfamily's from.
And, we were looking around forwork here and there, both of us,
and I decided to pick up thephone because I remembered from
my school years, uh, thiscompany called Epson, which was
(07:41):
making a lot of inkjet printers,and it was right at the time
when, like, the Macintoshdesktops, computers, and all of
these things were reallystarting to come into the
market, and so everybody neededa printer.
And I happened to know that theywere a Japanese company.
Not a lot of people knew that.
So I picked up the phone, calledthem, didn't know anybody.
(08:03):
And I think it was partly fateand partly just pure luck.
The person who could speakEnglish to me, who came on the
line, had graduated a yearbefore me from the same
university,
Timothy Sullivan (08:15):
Oh,
Keith Norum (08:16):
had been, had been hired by Epson to start finding
non Japanese people to work inJapan for them.
John Puma (08:23):
That is serendipity.
Okay.
I didn't
Keith Norum (08:29):
know.
I just picked up the phone.
And before I knew it, I hadmoved from Shizuoka to Suwa in
Nagano because that is the,global headquarters of the Seiko
Epson Corporation.
I say Seiko because Seiko watchcompany actually had a big hand
in creating the Epson printercompany.
And they merged into a singlecorporation in the 1980s.
(08:49):
So.
Before I knew it, I was inheaven, mountain heaven, Suwa,
working at a giant company, andI was on the five year plan,
which I threw out the windowabout three years later, and
John Puma (09:04):
so hang on.
What is the five year plan?
Keith Norum (09:06):
well, a five year contract, and then you go home
John Puma (09:08):
Oh, okay.
So you're just that it's a oneand done kind of thing.
Keith Norum (09:12):
And, I very quickly realized that, uh, uh, no, this,
I don't think I'm gonna be goinghome.
and so I stayed.
John Puma (09:21):
Hmm.
Keith Norum (09:22):
brought me to Japan, and then it brought me to
Suwa.
And, uh, years ensued.
And during those years, I metThe Miyasaka family, just as
friends, just as people in theneighborhood were fascinating
and very warm and open,wonderful family.
That's where I encountered theSake of Suwa at first, was
(09:43):
through the Masumi brandedMiyasaka family.
Um, little did I know that hehad ulterior motives in asking
me to come to barbecues.
John Puma (09:53):
Aha.
Keith Norum (09:55):
So after, after 11 years I decided to leave Epson
and we started a small companyto, outsource.
a human resources function fromEpson.
So we had our own littlebusiness and that's when the
Miyasaka family, actually thecurrent president, Naotaka,
knocked immediately on the doorand said, Hey, you guys are free
now.
(10:16):
Can you help us?
Timothy Sullivan (10:17):
Hmm
Keith Norum (10:18):
so that was in 2001 to
John Puma (10:21):
2002 Hmm.
Keith Norum (10:22):
And we said, sure, it'd be great.
And in about four years, werealized that having a small
business can be very up anddown.
So.
Having my wife Machiko, takethat and me working full time
for Masumi made sense for bothcompanies.
In 2005, as you mentioned,Timothy, I made the jump
(10:43):
directly into Masumi as theiroverseas operations or sales
person.
So that's how I ended up withMasumi.
That wasn't quick, but I guessit was quick enough.
John Puma (10:52):
It was efficient, I think.
Thank you for sharing.
Now, I think that our secondquestion is probably going to be
a little bit simpler, and it'sone that we ask of all of our
guests.
so, uh, the short version wouldbe like, how are the, how did
Saké happen for you?
When was the aha?
When was the, uh, like, Oh, thisis something special kind of
moment for you.
Keith Norum (11:09):
The very first time I encountered sake is something
I remember because I was in WestVirginia at the time.
I was working for a dailynewspaper in a place called
Elkins, uh, and this was in the80s and there wasn't much in the
way of Japanese food in Elkins,West Virginia in the 80s.
John Puma (11:27):
I'm wondering where the sake came from.
That's,
Keith Norum (11:36):
And.
We decided, oh, look, they havesake, what the hell?
And so we ordered a carafe, andit came out, I kid you not, it
had a Chinese, very clearly aChinese dressed woman on the
picture, on the bottle.
And it had an umbrella stuck inthe top!
Timothy Sullivan (11:54):
hmm.
Keith Norum (11:56):
And
John Puma (11:56):
eighties Chinese restaurant right there.
Keith Norum (11:58):
oh, wow! And it was Forgettable sake, to be honest.
I don't know what it was.
They didn't even mention thebrand.
I don't think that they knew thebrand.
And so that was a typicaleighties encounter with sake in
rural America.
John Puma (12:13):
Yes.
Keith Norum (12:15):
Years, years after that, honestly, the first time
sake really became a thing forme was shortly after I moved to
Japan.
It was in Shizuoka, and we werewith family and, you know,
eating and all this kind ofthing, and they brought out,
Kaiun from Doi Shuzo, and it wasso good.
(12:35):
It was just so fresh and clear,and it just, I took a double
take right there at the table,like, because I was, like,
expecting another, you know,umbrella in a bottle or
something, and this stuff wasjust.
Really nice.
And I went, gee, I better haveanother look at that.
And it wasn't so long afterthat, that, uh, we moved to
(12:57):
Suwa.
And, just like any bigcorporate, organization, they
have a lot of, uh, drinkingparties after work that are
obligatory, so it's kind of likework.
And at some point in theevening, they would trot out
either or both chilled sake andwarm sake.
Almost always, it was acollection of the local sakes.
(13:19):
It was some from maybe Coltonand maybe Kodu and Masumi and
honking.
So it was always a mix of localsake.
It was mostly, uh, standardlevel futsushu, and it was
really good.
It was just nothing like Ithought sake could be.
So after that, while I was, Iwas hooked in into it and I was
(13:42):
curious about it.
But I must say, I was not, Ididn't become some kind of sake
maniac.
I did not suddenly do a hugedeep dive into the sake pool.
I was just there.
It was part of your daily life.
And there were plenty of otherthings that occupied me.
So, I wasn't, I wasn't sort oftransformed into some kind of
sake evangelist overnight.
It wasn't like that.
Timothy Sullivan (14:03):
Well, you've been working with Masumi Brewery
since 2005, and we'd love to getyour perspective on working for
a Japanese sake brewery as a nonJapanese person.
You've been with the samebrewery for a long time now, and
we'd love to hear some of theUh, the challenges or some of
(14:25):
the things that have reallysurprised you in a positive way
about working for a Japanesesake brewery as a non Japanese
person.
What are some of your thoughtson that?
Keith Norum (14:35):
Okay, here we go.
I'm going to watch the time onthis one.
But no, no, really, honestly,because I'd already been in
Japan quite a while beforeactually joining or working
with, you know, Miyasaka BrewingCompany.
Um, I didn't have the kind ofreal big culture shock that a
lot of people do when they moveto Japan.
And just start jumping straightinto, uh, an industry like sake,
(14:57):
uh, Timothy, you could probablyspeak more about that kind of
thing than me, given yourexperience with Hakkaisan and
all that.
So, I didn't experience thatkind of culture shock.
The beginning with Masumi wasvery positive and very pleasant.
we had already been friends.
We were karaoke friends.
We'd go to Thai restaurantstogether.
(15:18):
Whoop it up because they had akaraoke room in the back and
stuff.
So that part of it was, was, wasreally enjoyable.
Um, and also very positive.
The shift from kind of dealingwith big corporations in the
tech area, like Epson and Canonand so on, to working with a
(15:39):
sake brewery, one of the mostunexpected, pleasant things was
the company was so open aboutwhat they do with other makers.
Timothy Sullivan (15:48):
Hmm.
Keith Norum (15:48):
didn't have a lot of secrets, and in the tech
industry, it's like everything'sa secret, and there's an NDA for
everything, and, and you just,but, uh, the Miyasakas had lots
of other brewers who were theirfriends, and they had personal
family relationships, and, andthey were sharing all this
really important information,technical information about what
they do, and problems thatthey'd solved, and so on, and it
(16:12):
was just, uh, such a breath offresh air that people were so
open and so supportive of eachother.
So I think that was one thingthat hit me quick, and it's
always stayed with me.
It's one of the wonderful thingsabout this industry.
Timothy Sullivan (16:26):
I ask you one really quick question, um,
before we move on?
Did you, when you startedworking at the brewery, did you
do any production training ordid you always have more of an
office, um, sales marketing job?
Keith Norum (16:42):
Good question, and it was always in the office.
I had training in the sense of,well, it's best if you know how
this works, so it was trainingin the sense of, so that I can
explain things better, but therewas never a point where they
said, uh, you know, we're alittle short in manpower, can
(17:04):
you come over and help us, carryrice around or, or do something?
It was never that kind ofsituation where, we had to.
I was needed in the brewery tohelp actually produce the sake.
and that's fine.
I mean, I knew that I wasn'tgoing to be in that kind of
capacity anyway.
so I never felt left out ofthat.
(17:25):
And, again, some of the thingswere some of the people that I
brought in were just there for aday, but there were
opportunities with otherproducers.
For example, a beer maker fromNorway.
No, no.
And he spent a month.
In there.
we had a winemaker from Denmark,and she spent almost the same,
it was about three weeks,because she wanted to learn for
(17:47):
her own professional use, thetechniques of fermentation.
And so, at times I really wasallowed to stay in there every
day for months at a time.
So, that was great too.
John Puma (18:00):
Great.
Cool.
I think it is time that we stopdancing around the issue and
start talking about and sippingsome of the delicious sake
Keith Norum (18:08):
okay.
John Puma (18:10):
So, uh, Timothy, what have we got today?
Timothy Sullivan (18:14):
Well, we asked Keith which sake from the Masumi
lineup he would like to tastewith us and feature in this
episode, and we landed on theMasumi Shiro Junmai Ginjo.
Uh, very dedicated listeners ofSake Revolution will know that.
We featured this sake back inDecember of 2023 in episode 161,
(18:39):
which was our, brand profile ofMasumi.
So we've tasted this before onthe show, but we are so excited
to taste it with Keith together.
Uh, Keith, would it be all rightif I rattled off the stats for
this sake for our listeners?
Keith Norum (18:56):
Please do.
Timothy Sullivan (18:57):
Alright, so again, this is from Miyasaka
Jozo in Nagano, brand nameMasumi.
One of the key features of thissake is its lower alcohol
content, about 12 percentalcohol, and the rice polishing
ratio is 55 percent remaining,and this features Miyamanishiki
and Yamadanishiki.
(19:19):
Our SMV is minus three.
And this features the worldrenowned Kyokai No.
7 Yeast, which is also tied toMasumi.
And an acidity of 1.
5.
So there you have it.
Keith Norum (19:36):
All righty.
Thank you, Timothy.
And I'm so glad you rattled itoff because there's always minor
changes
John Puma (19:42):
Ooh,
Keith Norum (19:43):
so you mentioned Kyokai number seven.
Yes,
Timothy Sullivan (19:47):
Oh, yes, I
John Puma (19:48):
he did.
Keith Norum (19:50):
actually, uh, Masumi now does not use the
Kyokai.
Kyokai means, uh, society,brewing society or brewing
association.
We, over the course of the last10 years, have been working very
hard to step away from buyingthe No.
7 yeast, Kyokai No.
7, from the Brewing Society.
(20:11):
For the longest time, eventhough that yeast was first
discovered and identified atMasumi, Masumi had been buying
it back, just like everybodyelse.
John Puma (20:21):
Mm
Timothy Sullivan (20:21):
hmm.
Keith Norum (20:23):
you know, I think it was 2018, we finally made the
switch to our own versions ofthe No.
7 yeast family.
we invested heavily in yeastdevelopment, uh, laboratory and
researchers, and so now we haveour own proprietary Masumi No.
7,
John Puma (20:40):
Well, then
Keith Norum (20:41):
so what we do is, we wanted to keep the No.
7 name, so we just changed theassociation to Masumi, and there
you go.
John Puma (20:50):
All right.
So we've got it in the glass.
Timothy Sullivan (20:55):
It's very, very gentle, light aroma for
sure.
Yeah.
John Puma (21:01):
And that's one of the things I always like about
Masumi stuff is that the aromais always very distinctive.
I there's a, there's a littlebit of like when I, have
something from Masumi in myglass.
I can usually, I'm like, unlessthis is a, this is a familiar
aroma to me.
Um, and it's got a little, it'sa little bit of a signature to
me in my mind, which I think islike really interesting is I
don't think there's a lot ofsake that has that.
Keith Norum (21:23):
Thank you for mentioning familiarity john I
that's something people oftentalk about it as a feeling of
comfort.
There's, there's somethingcomfortable about the aroma and
the overall taste profile.
Absolutely.
And I think that's, that's true.
It's, it's something that peoplebecome very comfortable and
familiar with.
It's something that makes themfeel at home.
(21:45):
I should mention that the mildertype of aromas, are part of the
characteristics of the No.
7 yeast.
No.
7 can be produced in a way, whenyou use No.
7, of course your productionmethods can do a lot for aroma.
So there are certain makers whouse No.
7 from the association, SocietyNo.
7, who do some incrediblyaromatic things with it.
(22:10):
But, as far as its base, ifyou're just going to use it
without doing anythingparticularly, uh, fancy with
your technique, you're going toget mild aromas.
you're going to find a kind ofarray that covers some of the
bright spots in some otheryeast, but not at the volume or
intensity of those yeast.
For example, number 9 and number18 are really good at very
(22:33):
bright, intense fruits, butthey're, they are some of the
fruit characteristics you getare white fruits like pears and
apples.
You find those in number 7 aswell, but they don't come out at
you with the intensity or thebrightness that you find in
those yeasts Number seven alsoproduces the aromas that are
more rounded and very softbanana.
(22:55):
And, you know, the aromas ofbanana are very warm and
comforting.
not sharp, not bright.
And so you get this interestingbalance between some of the
aromatic spectrum that you seein other sakes.
Timothy Sullivan (23:08):
Hmm.
All Let's give it a taste.
John Puma (23:10):
All right.
Timothy Sullivan (23:11):
It's so lovely.
It's very soft, gentle, butthere's notes of like apple peel
and, green apple on the palatethat are really charming, really
lovely.
but one of the main focuses ofthis particular sake is to take
a lighter approach.
Is that right?
Keith?
Keith Norum (23:29):
That's right.
In fact, I think the very firsttime we met, Already, this kind
of sake from Masumi was in NewYork, and I think we might have
even tasted it that evening atSakagura.
John Puma (23:41):
Hmm.
Keith Norum (23:42):
At the time, it didn't have this name, it wasn't
called Shiro.
It was, it was part of a secondbrand, a family private reserve
brand called Miyasaka.
And it was in there, and it wascalled Miyasaka Yawaraka Junmai.
and the English name on the backof all the Masumi bottles you
have is Really cool Englishtitle for them, and it's sake
(24:04):
matinee,
John Puma (24:05):
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Timothy Sullivan (24:07):
Yes.
Keith Norum (24:08):
and the point was, it's, it's 12 percent alcohol
and obviously it's going to comeoff lighter.
It's going to come off in adifferent way than a lot of sake
is doing the first point todoing a sake at 12 percent was
from a chef in Japan who wascomplaining to a president that
he does a lot of lunchtimecorporate dinners with people
(24:30):
from all over the world.
And his, he's a Japanese chef,he does beautiful Japanese food,
and people ordering, you know,Sauvignon Blanc and, and Chablis
and stuff because they're afraidthat the sake is going to get
everybody drunk and then theycan't have their afternoon plan.
John Puma (24:46):
That, that is a completely reasonable concern
for an afternoon of drinkingwhen you're having something
that's like, you know, 16, 15percent alcohol.
Absolutely.
Keith Norum (24:55):
so so that's where it started but very quickly.
We realized partly the marketmade us realize that it's not
just something for lunchtime.
It's a sake that was waiting tobe had that a lot of people
outside of Japan especially whohaven't encountered much sake do
feel the alcohol very forward.
(25:17):
In sake, they can have a reallybold red wine that's about 15%
alcohol and a sake, which isusually 15, and they'll always
feel the alcohol stronger thansake.
So giving them an option ofhaving it at 12 so that they're
not put off or distracted by thefeeling of alcohol and they can
(25:37):
actually feel the sake more.
Broadly, it was something thathelped them get into the sake
house and start exploring.
So it turned out to be just awonderful sake in that
application.
John Puma (25:50):
So it sounds like you're describing it almost like
a gateway sake.
Keith Norum (25:54):
Yeah, exactly.
And in fact, just in terms ofour export share, we're right
now at about 15, 1.
5 percent of our total sales peryear are export sales, meaning
not in Japan.
So 15%.
So most of the products that weexport, if you compare the
percentage of sales of thatproduct, it's around the same.
(26:17):
So maybe 20 percent of a productis sold overseas and the rest is
in Japan, typically.
This product that we're having,Shiro, 50 percent is overseas
and 50 percent is in Japan.
It is that much of a specialproduct for overseas.
Be careful.
We did not make it for theoverseas market.
(26:39):
We made it because some guy inTokyo said, come on, can't you
do me a sake that's a littlelower?
Uh, but the result was that.
So that's, I think says it allreally.
John Puma (26:50):
That's awesome.
That's really cool.
Timothy Sullivan (26:52):
So, when we were setting up this interview,
Keith, we asked you from theentire Masumi portfolio, which
sake you'd like to feature andwant to taste with us, and you
chose this, uh, Shiro, thislower alcohol sake that you've
been describing so eloquently.
Why did you choose this out ofthe Masumi portfolio to taste
with us today and introduce toour listeners?
Keith Norum (27:16):
Good question.
And the, the obvious answer isyou guys said it has to be a
sake that's available inAmerica,
Timothy Sullivan (27:25):
True.
Keith Norum (27:25):
it has to be a sake that people can sort of reliably
find if they're in certain urbanparts of the country.
And partly it's the story that Itold about it, the fact that
it's been in the market as a 12percent alcohol Jumai ginjo for
a very long time, and that itspopularity is clear.
I felt this was the best one tohelp people actually go out and
(27:49):
try it right away, but they'llprobably be able to find it.
It's also the one that Imentioned, comfort and home.
This is often the sake that endsup being in our refrigerator
because We're just at home.
I'm not, I'm not gonna do agiant tasting of sake every
night.
I'm having dinner and I want asake that's not going to knock
(28:10):
me off my chair, but it's goingto go with the food and my wife
and I are going to enjoy ourconversation and our meal.
And this is the one that ends upbeing the one in the
refrigerator a lot.
That's why.
Timothy Sullivan (28:22):
Now, if people want to learn more about your
work or learn more about.
Masumi, where can people goonline and, uh, discover more?
Keith Norum (28:33):
Well, one is just, if you just Google Masumi Sake,
then pretty quickly, you'll getto our English website and,
although I know websites arekind of passe and everybody's
into the SNS thing and all that,honestly, just, just as a base,
go to the website and it'sfairly deep.
It goes through a lot of things,obviously talks about our
(28:54):
products, talks about thehistory of the company.
It also talks about how sake ismade.
In quite some detail.
So it's there as a resource andyou can just, you know, nibble
at that as you go along.
We do have a couple of Instagrampresences.
There's a, the main one, whichis just Masumi.
(29:15):
If you put Masumi sake orsomething in, you'll get the
Japanese one.
I must say, though, just as a,as a parting note, I am, uh, now
a sort of special situationemployee, uh, because I'm over
60 years old, and I've beenturned into what's called the
Shogutaku, uh, that means thatI'm a Shogutaku.
Yes, so Shokutaku, and it's aspecial situation for older
(29:37):
companies in Japan often dothis, so I turned 60, and they
retire you, and then they rehireyou.
So I'm a retired, rehiredemployee, and I'm doing about
what I did before, but
John Puma (29:50):
Okay.
Keith Norum (29:51):
it's just, yep, it's one of those things.
And we do have finally a new guywho's helping and he's going to
be working more and more ininternational sales based in
suwa.
He's not a Japanese guy, he'sfrom Hong Kong originally, but
he spent most of his educationalyears through high school and
And college in London,
John Puma (30:11):
Mm hmm.
Keith Norum (30:11):
uh, his name is Hugo Chan, and he is going to be
doing more and more with the,for example, the Instagram and
this kind of thing, as well asjust the typical international
sales work that, that we do.
So you'll be seeing a lot of himand you'll probably see more
Instagram.
Thanks to him.
John Puma (30:29):
I, I had the pleasure of meeting Hugo, uh, earlier
this year.
Joy of sake.
happy to meet him.
Yeah.
Keith Norum (30:33):
So,
Timothy Sullivan (30:34):
That's wonderful.
And Keith, you're also, I'veseen a lot of really amazing
YouTube videos featuring youtalking about the brand and the
sake, so there's a YouTubechannel as well, isn't there?
Keith Norum (30:44):
that's right.
Thank you for reminding me.
The reason I forgot was we didthat during the pandemic.
We had a video company that didthose YouTube things for a
John Puma (30:52):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Keith Norum (30:54):
And, there were a lot of fun.
Thanks to the video company thatwould come in and set it all up
and do them and honestly therewere a lot of fun for me too but
unfortunately that relationshiphad a sort of ending point too.
And so for the last severalyears we just.
At least I haven't been directlyinvolved much with the YouTube
thing.
I would like to get back into itin some way or another, but it
(31:15):
just hasn't happened recently.
Timothy Sullivan (31:16):
it was such a pleasure to talk to you and have
you on the show today.
Uh, thank you so much forjoining us, Keith.
I
Keith Norum (31:24):
No, it was a great pleasure and honor.
Thank you guys for asking me on.
And, uh, I'm sure that thisconversation will continue as we
go along.
Timothy Sullivan (31:33):
hope so.
We can't wait to have you backagain.
All right.
Well, in addition to Keith, Ialso want to thank all of our
listeners for tuning in for eachand every episode and a special
hello and shout out to all ofour Patrons For those of you who
would like to support SakeRevolution, we do have a
(31:53):
Patreon, and we appreciate ourpatrons so much.
They make Sake Revolutionpossible.
If you'd like to learn moreabout supporting us on Patreon,
visitPatreon.com/SakeRevolution.
John Puma (32:05):
Uh, and if you were inspired earlier when Keith
corrected us on the yeast to usein the sake, and you have other
corrections, maybe did we messsomething up?
Is there something that you needto tell us?
Is there a way we can make thisshow better?
We want to hear from you.
We want you to reach out to us,the email address for that.
And if you thought websites wereold email, you can email us at
(32:27):
feedback@sakerevolution.Com.
You can also just get at us onInstagram, Okay.
at SakeRevolutionPod.
We will thank you for your, yourkind words and we'll get back to
you.
Uh, now with that said,everybody please raise your
glass.
Remember to keep drinking sakeand
Timothy Sullivan (32:44):
Kanpai!Kanpai Okay.
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution.
This is America's first sakepodcast I am one of your hosts
John Puma.
I'm from the Sake Notes Also theadministrator over at the
internet sake Discord andReddit's r Slash sake community
Timothy Sullivan (00:39):
And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan.
I'm a sake samurai.
I'm the director of education atthe Sake Studies Center, as well
as the founder of the Urban Sakewebsite.
And every week, John and I willbe here tasting and chatting
about all things sake and doingour best to make it fun and easy
to understand.
John Puma (00:56):
Well, hello, Tim.
Timothy Sullivan (00:58):
Hello, John.
I'm so excited.
John Puma (01:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've noticed, We are in themidst of our series that has yet
to be named, where we talk topeople who have had, uh,
experience working at Japanesesake breweries.
Now, Tim, who is this man thatis in our zoom?
Timothy Sullivan (01:16):
I am so excited to welcome our friend
Keith Norum.
He's the Director ofInternational Sales at Masumi
Sake Brewery from NaganoPrefecture.
Now, John, you and I havefeatured Masumi and we've talked
about Nagano several times onthe podcast.
And when we decided to start aseries where we interview people
(01:36):
who've worked at Japanese sakebreweries.
Keith's name popped right to thetop of my list.
John Puma (01:44):
He might be like the second or third person we
mentioned.
I think
Timothy Sullivan (01:47):
Keith,
Keith Norum (01:47):
I allowed to laugh now?
John Puma (01:49):
you are totally allowed to laugh now.
Timothy Sullivan (01:51):
Keith, we are so excited to welcome you to
Sake Revolution and, uh,welcome.
We're so happy to have you here.
Keith Norum (02:00):
Well, thank you, Timothy.
Good to see you.
John, what a nice surprise andwhat a pleasure and an honor to,
to podcast with you guys.
I'm really excited and thank youfor, for asking me.
Um, I'm sure there are a lot ofvery interesting sake stories
out there and I'm not one ofthem.
I'm one of the more boring.
One of the boring stories, butat least you get through those
(02:22):
and you can go on to more, morescintillating, uh, content.
John Puma (02:26):
Oh my goodness.
I don't know.
What kind of show
Keith Norum (02:28):
But I'm, but I'm, I'm happy, I'm happy to fill the
air with some stories and thatsort of thing.
John Puma (02:33):
Wonderful.
We're very glad to have you.
Timothy Sullivan (02:36):
before you fill the air with stories,
Keith, I have to fill the airwith one of my stories.
I want to go back in time to thefirst time I ever met you, Keith
Norum, I looked it up.
I went to the deepest, darkestarchives of urban sake, and I
found the first time that Iencountered you.
(02:59):
It was at Sakagura restauranthere in New York on May 15th,
2006.
Uh, this was less than, this wasless
John Puma (03:07):
I gotta say on May 15th,
Timothy Sullivan (03:10):
yes.
John Puma (03:11):
I had, had my first drink of sake about one month
before that.
Timothy Sullivan (03:15):
Yeah.
And I had had my first drink ofsake about one year before
John Puma (03:18):
Yeah.,
Timothy Sullivan (03:18):
Keith was doing a Masumi night at Sakagura
restaurant, and you had, uh,Nasutoji.
Yes.
Keith Norum (03:27):
Sakagura and May, I was thinking that might've been
the first time that Nasu-tojiand I visited New York city.
Was that right?
That was the first time for him.
Timothy Sullivan (03:36):
Yes.
And I remember saying goodbye toyou, shaking your hand, and
saying to you, gosh, I, how doyou get to do what you're doing?
Like, this, your job of,Traveling and introducing sake
just from that point in my sakejourney sounded like the coolest
(03:57):
thing in the whole world.
And here we are, all these yearslater, and I just wanted to let
you know that I think of thatmoment regularly and, you are
such an inspiration and, uh, itwas just such, such a fond
memory and it was fun to rereadthat blog post today.
I'll put a link to it in theshow
John Puma (04:15):
Oh, that's
Keith Norum (04:16):
Oh, really?
Okay.
That was before Snapchat, sothings don't disappear in the
air,
Timothy Sullivan (04:22):
do not disappear on Urban Sake.
John Puma (04:26):
Ah, the age of blogs.
I remember those days fondly.
Keith Norum (04:30):
Timothy, that's so kind of you to say that and to
remember that.
I also remember meeting youthere, I just didn't remember
the year.
It's funny how the pandemic hasmessed up pretty much
everybody's recollection ofyears.
John Puma (04:45):
Mm hmm.
Keith Norum (04:46):
I just, I, I can never place anything properly
anymore, but I also remember,meeting you and I remember you
mentioning that you're doing ablog about sake, which I was
fascinated to hear about.
and so I felt like These guysare really into this.
they're not just messing aroundand sort of a fun night with
(05:07):
some strange alcohol.
So I was really impressed fromthe very beginning.
John Puma (05:13):
that's pretty cool.
I didn't realize you guys, uh,went back that far.
I met Keith at the end of a Joyof Sake event with very fuzzy
memory because it was the end ofa Joy of Sake
Keith Norum (05:22):
Oh yeah,
John Puma (05:23):
But I, I think think that my, my wife, Myshell had
met you earlier in the night.
Or near the end of it and waslike you have she came over to
me.
She's like you gotta meet KeithCame over i'm like who's Keith
And she's like this is Keith andyou're telling you introduce
yourself and I was like, oh, Ilove Masumi.
This is great
Keith Norum (05:40):
Good on Myshell typically, she's on it and goes,
okay, well, if I don't get Johnover here, he's going to be
totally blotto and it won'thappen.
So she got you on the leashbefore that could happen.
That's good.
John Puma (05:55):
Yeah, she's good like that
Keith Norum (05:57):
oh.
Timothy Sullivan (05:58):
according to my extensive research, Keith,
you You joined Miyasaka JozoMiyasaka Brewery, makers of
Masumi, full time in June of2005 as the head of overseas
operation.
Uh, can you give us a quick, uh,summary of how you wound up in
Japan and how you connectedwith, um, Masumi?
Keith Norum (06:23):
That's a tough order.
Uh, quick, quick is the hardpart.
Okay.
But, Well, first, how I ended upin Japan.
I actually came to Japan in1990.
it was still bubble time in
John Puma (06:38):
Yeah.
Keith Norum (06:39):
And I had, stepped out of graduate school.
and decided not to pursue theacademic career that I was in
graduate school for, and, uh, Ihad a really, really important
reason to go to Japan instead.
Partly, work.
Japan was booming and so therewere, plenty of opportunities to
(07:01):
find something to do there.
And I was also married to aJapanese woman, wonderful woman,
Michiko.
We were married in the Statesand, I felt it was time to turn
the tables.
So, there were two Ws, there waswork and there was a woman
involved with my decision tomove to Japan in 1990.
John Puma (07:19):
Hmm.
Keith Norum (07:21):
very shortly after we moved, we moved to Shizuoka,
because that's where herfamily's from.
And, we were looking around forwork here and there, both of us,
and I decided to pick up thephone because I remembered from
my school years, uh, thiscompany called Epson, which was
(07:41):
making a lot of inkjet printers,and it was right at the time
when, like, the Macintoshdesktops, computers, and all of
these things were reallystarting to come into the
market, and so everybody neededa printer.
And I happened to know that theywere a Japanese company.
Not a lot of people knew that.
So I picked up the phone, calledthem, didn't know anybody.
(08:03):
And I think it was partly fateand partly just pure luck.
The person who could speakEnglish to me, who came on the
line, had graduated a yearbefore me from the same
university,
Timothy Sullivan (08:15):
Oh,
Keith Norum (08:16):
had been, had been hired by Epson to start finding
non Japanese people to work inJapan for them.
John Puma (08:23):
That is serendipity.
Okay.
I didn't
Keith Norum (08:29):
know.
I just picked up the phone.
And before I knew it, I hadmoved from Shizuoka to Suwa in
Nagano because that is the,global headquarters of the Seiko
Epson Corporation.
I say Seiko because Seiko watchcompany actually had a big hand
in creating the Epson printercompany.
And they merged into a singlecorporation in the 1980s.
(08:49):
So.
Before I knew it, I was inheaven, mountain heaven, Suwa,
working at a giant company, andI was on the five year plan,
which I threw out the windowabout three years later, and
John Puma (09:04):
so hang on.
What is the five year plan?
Keith Norum (09:06):
well, a five year contract, and then you go home
John Puma (09:08):
Oh, okay.
So you're just that it's a oneand done kind of thing.
Keith Norum (09:12):
And, I very quickly realized that, uh, uh, no, this,
I don't think I'm gonna be goinghome.
and so I stayed.
John Puma (09:21):
Hmm.
Keith Norum (09:22):
brought me to Japan, and then it brought me to
Suwa.
And, uh, years ensued.
And during those years, I metThe Miyasaka family, just as
friends, just as people in theneighborhood were fascinating
and very warm and open,wonderful family.
That's where I encountered theSake of Suwa at first, was
(09:43):
through the Masumi brandedMiyasaka family.
Um, little did I know that hehad ulterior motives in asking
me to come to barbecues.
John Puma (09:53):
Aha.
Keith Norum (09:55):
So after, after 11 years I decided to leave Epson
and we started a small companyto, outsource.
a human resources function fromEpson.
So we had our own littlebusiness and that's when the
Miyasaka family, actually thecurrent president, Naotaka,
knocked immediately on the doorand said, Hey, you guys are free
now.
(10:16):
Can you help us?
Timothy Sullivan (10:17):
Hmm
Keith Norum (10:18):
so that was in 2001 to
John Puma (10:21):
2002 Hmm.
Keith Norum (10:22):
And we said, sure, it'd be great.
And in about four years, werealized that having a small
business can be very up anddown.
So.
Having my wife Machiko, takethat and me working full time
for Masumi made sense for bothcompanies.
In 2005, as you mentioned,Timothy, I made the jump
(10:43):
directly into Masumi as theiroverseas operations or sales
person.
So that's how I ended up withMasumi.
That wasn't quick, but I guessit was quick enough.
John Puma (10:52):
It was efficient, I think.
Thank you for sharing.
Now, I think that our secondquestion is probably going to be
a little bit simpler, and it'sone that we ask of all of our
guests.
so, uh, the short version wouldbe like, how are the, how did
Saké happen for you?
When was the aha?
When was the, uh, like, Oh, thisis something special kind of
moment for you.
Keith Norum (11:09):
The very first time I encountered sake is something
I remember because I was in WestVirginia at the time.
I was working for a dailynewspaper in a place called
Elkins, uh, and this was in the80s and there wasn't much in the
way of Japanese food in Elkins,West Virginia in the 80s.
John Puma (11:27):
I'm wondering where the sake came from.
That's,
Keith Norum (11:36):
And.
We decided, oh, look, they havesake, what the hell?
And so we ordered a carafe, andit came out, I kid you not, it
had a Chinese, very clearly aChinese dressed woman on the
picture, on the bottle.
And it had an umbrella stuck inthe top!
Timothy Sullivan (11:54):
hmm.
Keith Norum (11:56):
And
John Puma (11:56):
eighties Chinese restaurant right there.
Keith Norum (11:58):
oh, wow! And it was Forgettable sake, to be honest.
I don't know what it was.
They didn't even mention thebrand.
I don't think that they knew thebrand.
And so that was a typicaleighties encounter with sake in
rural America.
John Puma (12:13):
Yes.
Keith Norum (12:15):
Years, years after that, honestly, the first time
sake really became a thing forme was shortly after I moved to
Japan.
It was in Shizuoka, and we werewith family and, you know,
eating and all this kind ofthing, and they brought out,
Kaiun from Doi Shuzo, and it wasso good.
(12:35):
It was just so fresh and clear,and it just, I took a double
take right there at the table,like, because I was, like,
expecting another, you know,umbrella in a bottle or
something, and this stuff wasjust.
Really nice.
And I went, gee, I better haveanother look at that.
And it wasn't so long afterthat, that, uh, we moved to
(12:57):
Suwa.
And, just like any bigcorporate, organization, they
have a lot of, uh, drinkingparties after work that are
obligatory, so it's kind of likework.
And at some point in theevening, they would trot out
either or both chilled sake andwarm sake.
Almost always, it was acollection of the local sakes.
(13:19):
It was some from maybe Coltonand maybe Kodu and Masumi and
honking.
So it was always a mix of localsake.
It was mostly, uh, standardlevel futsushu, and it was
really good.
It was just nothing like Ithought sake could be.
So after that, while I was, Iwas hooked in into it and I was
(13:42):
curious about it.
But I must say, I was not, Ididn't become some kind of sake
maniac.
I did not suddenly do a hugedeep dive into the sake pool.
I was just there.
It was part of your daily life.
And there were plenty of otherthings that occupied me.
So, I wasn't, I wasn't sort oftransformed into some kind of
sake evangelist overnight.
It wasn't like that.
Timothy Sullivan (14:03):
Well, you've been working with Masumi Brewery
since 2005, and we'd love to getyour perspective on working for
a Japanese sake brewery as a nonJapanese person.
You've been with the samebrewery for a long time now, and
we'd love to hear some of theUh, the challenges or some of
(14:25):
the things that have reallysurprised you in a positive way
about working for a Japanesesake brewery as a non Japanese
person.
What are some of your thoughtson that?
Keith Norum (14:35):
Okay, here we go.
I'm going to watch the time onthis one.
But no, no, really, honestly,because I'd already been in
Japan quite a while beforeactually joining or working
with, you know, Miyasaka BrewingCompany.
Um, I didn't have the kind ofreal big culture shock that a
lot of people do when they moveto Japan.
And just start jumping straightinto, uh, an industry like sake,
(14:57):
uh, Timothy, you could probablyspeak more about that kind of
thing than me, given yourexperience with Hakkaisan and
all that.
So, I didn't experience thatkind of culture shock.
The beginning with Masumi wasvery positive and very pleasant.
we had already been friends.
We were karaoke friends.
We'd go to Thai restaurantstogether.
(15:18):
Whoop it up because they had akaraoke room in the back and
stuff.
So that part of it was, was, wasreally enjoyable.
Um, and also very positive.
The shift from kind of dealingwith big corporations in the
tech area, like Epson and Canonand so on, to working with a
(15:39):
sake brewery, one of the mostunexpected, pleasant things was
the company was so open aboutwhat they do with other makers.
Timothy Sullivan (15:48):
Hmm.
Keith Norum (15:48):
didn't have a lot of secrets, and in the tech
industry, it's like everything'sa secret, and there's an NDA for
everything, and, and you just,but, uh, the Miyasakas had lots
of other brewers who were theirfriends, and they had personal
family relationships, and, andthey were sharing all this
really important information,technical information about what
they do, and problems thatthey'd solved, and so on, and it
(16:12):
was just, uh, such a breath offresh air that people were so
open and so supportive of eachother.
So I think that was one thingthat hit me quick, and it's
always stayed with me.
It's one of the wonderful thingsabout this industry.
Timothy Sullivan (16:26):
I ask you one really quick question, um,
before we move on?
Did you, when you startedworking at the brewery, did you
do any production training ordid you always have more of an
office, um, sales marketing job?
Keith Norum (16:42):
Good question, and it was always in the office.
I had training in the sense of,well, it's best if you know how
this works, so it was trainingin the sense of, so that I can
explain things better, but therewas never a point where they
said, uh, you know, we're alittle short in manpower, can
(17:04):
you come over and help us, carryrice around or, or do something?
It was never that kind ofsituation where, we had to.
I was needed in the brewery tohelp actually produce the sake.
and that's fine.
I mean, I knew that I wasn'tgoing to be in that kind of
capacity anyway.
so I never felt left out ofthat.
(17:25):
And, again, some of the thingswere some of the people that I
brought in were just there for aday, but there were
opportunities with otherproducers.
For example, a beer maker fromNorway.
No, no.
And he spent a month.
In there.
we had a winemaker from Denmark,and she spent almost the same,
it was about three weeks,because she wanted to learn for
(17:47):
her own professional use, thetechniques of fermentation.
And so, at times I really wasallowed to stay in there every
day for months at a time.
So, that was great too.
John Puma (18:00):
Great.
Cool.
I think it is time that we stopdancing around the issue and
start talking about and sippingsome of the delicious sake
Keith Norum (18:08):
okay.
John Puma (18:10):
So, uh, Timothy, what have we got today?
Timothy Sullivan (18:14):
Well, we asked Keith which sake from the Masumi
lineup he would like to tastewith us and feature in this
episode, and we landed on theMasumi Shiro Junmai Ginjo.
Uh, very dedicated listeners ofSake Revolution will know that.
We featured this sake back inDecember of 2023 in episode 161,
(18:39):
which was our, brand profile ofMasumi.
So we've tasted this before onthe show, but we are so excited
to taste it with Keith together.
Uh, Keith, would it be all rightif I rattled off the stats for
this sake for our listeners?
Keith Norum (18:56):
Please do.
Timothy Sullivan (18:57):
Alright, so again, this is from Miyasaka
Jozo in Nagano, brand nameMasumi.
One of the key features of thissake is its lower alcohol
content, about 12 percentalcohol, and the rice polishing
ratio is 55 percent remaining,and this features Miyamanishiki
and Yamadanishiki.
(19:19):
Our SMV is minus three.
And this features the worldrenowned Kyokai No.
7 Yeast, which is also tied toMasumi.
And an acidity of 1.
5.
So there you have it.
Keith Norum (19:36):
All righty.
Thank you, Timothy.
And I'm so glad you rattled itoff because there's always minor
changes
John Puma (19:42):
Ooh,
Keith Norum (19:43):
so you mentioned Kyokai number seven.
Yes,
Timothy Sullivan (19:47):
Oh, yes, I
John Puma (19:48):
he did.
Keith Norum (19:50):
actually, uh, Masumi now does not use the
Kyokai.
Kyokai means, uh, society,brewing society or brewing
association.
We, over the course of the last10 years, have been working very
hard to step away from buyingthe No.
7 yeast, Kyokai No.
7, from the Brewing Society.
(20:11):
For the longest time, eventhough that yeast was first
discovered and identified atMasumi, Masumi had been buying
it back, just like everybodyelse.
John Puma (20:21):
Mm
Timothy Sullivan (20:21):
hmm.
Keith Norum (20:23):
you know, I think it was 2018, we finally made the
switch to our own versions ofthe No.
7 yeast family.
we invested heavily in yeastdevelopment, uh, laboratory and
researchers, and so now we haveour own proprietary Masumi No.
7,
John Puma (20:40):
Well, then
Keith Norum (20:41):
so what we do is, we wanted to keep the No.
7 name, so we just changed theassociation to Masumi, and there
you go.
John Puma (20:50):
All right.
So we've got it in the glass.
Timothy Sullivan (20:55):
It's very, very gentle, light aroma for
sure.
Yeah.
John Puma (21:01):
And that's one of the things I always like about
Masumi stuff is that the aromais always very distinctive.
I there's a, there's a littlebit of like when I, have
something from Masumi in myglass.
I can usually, I'm like, unlessthis is a, this is a familiar
aroma to me.
Um, and it's got a little, it'sa little bit of a signature to
me in my mind, which I think islike really interesting is I
don't think there's a lot ofsake that has that.
Keith Norum (21:23):
Thank you for mentioning familiarity john I
that's something people oftentalk about it as a feeling of
comfort.
There's, there's somethingcomfortable about the aroma and
the overall taste profile.
Absolutely.
And I think that's, that's true.
It's, it's something that peoplebecome very comfortable and
familiar with.
It's something that makes themfeel at home.
(21:45):
I should mention that the mildertype of aromas, are part of the
characteristics of the No.
7 yeast.
No.
7 can be produced in a way, whenyou use No.
7, of course your productionmethods can do a lot for aroma.
So there are certain makers whouse No.
7 from the association, SocietyNo.
7, who do some incrediblyaromatic things with it.
(22:10):
But, as far as its base, ifyou're just going to use it
without doing anythingparticularly, uh, fancy with
your technique, you're going toget mild aromas.
you're going to find a kind ofarray that covers some of the
bright spots in some otheryeast, but not at the volume or
intensity of those yeast.
For example, number 9 and number18 are really good at very
(22:33):
bright, intense fruits, butthey're, they are some of the
fruit characteristics you getare white fruits like pears and
apples.
You find those in number 7 aswell, but they don't come out at
you with the intensity or thebrightness that you find in
those yeasts Number seven alsoproduces the aromas that are
more rounded and very softbanana.
(22:55):
And, you know, the aromas ofbanana are very warm and
comforting.
not sharp, not bright.
And so you get this interestingbalance between some of the
aromatic spectrum that you seein other sakes.
Timothy Sullivan (23:08):
Hmm.
All Let's give it a taste.
John Puma (23:10):
All right.
Timothy Sullivan (23:11):
It's so lovely.
It's very soft, gentle, butthere's notes of like apple peel
and, green apple on the palatethat are really charming, really
lovely.
but one of the main focuses ofthis particular sake is to take
a lighter approach.
Is that right?
Keith?
Keith Norum (23:29):
That's right.
In fact, I think the very firsttime we met, Already, this kind
of sake from Masumi was in NewYork, and I think we might have
even tasted it that evening atSakagura.
John Puma (23:41):
Hmm.
Keith Norum (23:42):
At the time, it didn't have this name, it wasn't
called Shiro.
It was, it was part of a secondbrand, a family private reserve
brand called Miyasaka.
And it was in there, and it wascalled Miyasaka Yawaraka Junmai.
and the English name on the backof all the Masumi bottles you
have is Really cool Englishtitle for them, and it's sake
(24:04):
matinee,
John Puma (24:05):
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Timothy Sullivan (24:07):
Yes.
Keith Norum (24:08):
and the point was, it's, it's 12 percent alcohol
and obviously it's going to comeoff lighter.
It's going to come off in adifferent way than a lot of sake
is doing the first point todoing a sake at 12 percent was
from a chef in Japan who wascomplaining to a president that
he does a lot of lunchtimecorporate dinners with people
(24:30):
from all over the world.
And his, he's a Japanese chef,he does beautiful Japanese food,
and people ordering, you know,Sauvignon Blanc and, and Chablis
and stuff because they're afraidthat the sake is going to get
everybody drunk and then theycan't have their afternoon plan.
John Puma (24:46):
That, that is a completely reasonable concern
for an afternoon of drinkingwhen you're having something
that's like, you know, 16, 15percent alcohol.
Absolutely.
Keith Norum (24:55):
so so that's where it started but very quickly.
We realized partly the marketmade us realize that it's not
just something for lunchtime.
It's a sake that was waiting tobe had that a lot of people
outside of Japan especially whohaven't encountered much sake do
feel the alcohol very forward.
(25:17):
In sake, they can have a reallybold red wine that's about 15%
alcohol and a sake, which isusually 15, and they'll always
feel the alcohol stronger thansake.
So giving them an option ofhaving it at 12 so that they're
not put off or distracted by thefeeling of alcohol and they can
(25:37):
actually feel the sake more.
Broadly, it was something thathelped them get into the sake
house and start exploring.
So it turned out to be just awonderful sake in that
application.
John Puma (25:50):
So it sounds like you're describing it almost like
a gateway sake.
Keith Norum (25:54):
Yeah, exactly.
And in fact, just in terms ofour export share, we're right
now at about 15, 1.
5 percent of our total sales peryear are export sales, meaning
not in Japan.
So 15%.
So most of the products that weexport, if you compare the
percentage of sales of thatproduct, it's around the same.
(26:17):
So maybe 20 percent of a productis sold overseas and the rest is
in Japan, typically.
This product that we're having,Shiro, 50 percent is overseas
and 50 percent is in Japan.
It is that much of a specialproduct for overseas.
Be careful.
We did not make it for theoverseas market.
(26:39):
We made it because some guy inTokyo said, come on, can't you
do me a sake that's a littlelower?
Uh, but the result was that.
So that's, I think says it allreally.
John Puma (26:50):
That's awesome.
That's really cool.
Timothy Sullivan (26:52):
So, when we were setting up this interview,
Keith, we asked you from theentire Masumi portfolio, which
sake you'd like to feature andwant to taste with us, and you
chose this, uh, Shiro, thislower alcohol sake that you've
been describing so eloquently.
Why did you choose this out ofthe Masumi portfolio to taste
with us today and introduce toour listeners?
Keith Norum (27:16):
Good question.
And the, the obvious answer isyou guys said it has to be a
sake that's available inAmerica,
Timothy Sullivan (27:25):
True.
Keith Norum (27:25):
it has to be a sake that people can sort of reliably
find if they're in certain urbanparts of the country.
And partly it's the story that Itold about it, the fact that
it's been in the market as a 12percent alcohol Jumai ginjo for
a very long time, and that itspopularity is clear.
I felt this was the best one tohelp people actually go out and
(27:49):
try it right away, but they'llprobably be able to find it.
It's also the one that Imentioned, comfort and home.
This is often the sake that endsup being in our refrigerator
because We're just at home.
I'm not, I'm not gonna do agiant tasting of sake every
night.
I'm having dinner and I want asake that's not going to knock
(28:10):
me off my chair, but it's goingto go with the food and my wife
and I are going to enjoy ourconversation and our meal.
And this is the one that ends upbeing the one in the
refrigerator a lot.
That's why.
Timothy Sullivan (28:22):
Now, if people want to learn more about your
work or learn more about.
Masumi, where can people goonline and, uh, discover more?
Keith Norum (28:33):
Well, one is just, if you just Google Masumi Sake,
then pretty quickly, you'll getto our English website and,
although I know websites arekind of passe and everybody's
into the SNS thing and all that,honestly, just, just as a base,
go to the website and it'sfairly deep.
It goes through a lot of things,obviously talks about our
(28:54):
products, talks about thehistory of the company.
It also talks about how sake ismade.
In quite some detail.
So it's there as a resource andyou can just, you know, nibble
at that as you go along.
We do have a couple of Instagrampresences.
There's a, the main one, whichis just Masumi.
(29:15):
If you put Masumi sake orsomething in, you'll get the
Japanese one.
I must say, though, just as a,as a parting note, I am, uh, now
a sort of special situationemployee, uh, because I'm over
60 years old, and I've beenturned into what's called the
Shogutaku, uh, that means thatI'm a Shogutaku.
Yes, so Shokutaku, and it's aspecial situation for older
(29:37):
companies in Japan often dothis, so I turned 60, and they
retire you, and then they rehireyou.
So I'm a retired, rehiredemployee, and I'm doing about
what I did before, but
John Puma (29:50):
Okay.
Keith Norum (29:51):
it's just, yep, it's one of those things.
And we do have finally a new guywho's helping and he's going to
be working more and more ininternational sales based in
suwa.
He's not a Japanese guy, he'sfrom Hong Kong originally, but
he spent most of his educationalyears through high school and
And college in London,
John Puma (30:11):
Mm hmm.
Keith Norum (30:11):
uh, his name is Hugo Chan, and he is going to be
doing more and more with the,for example, the Instagram and
this kind of thing, as well asjust the typical international
sales work that, that we do.
So you'll be seeing a lot of himand you'll probably see more
Instagram.
Thanks to him.
John Puma (30:29):
I, I had the pleasure of meeting Hugo, uh, earlier
this year.
Joy of sake.
happy to meet him.
Yeah.
Keith Norum (30:33):
So,
Timothy Sullivan (30:34):
That's wonderful.
And Keith, you're also, I'veseen a lot of really amazing
YouTube videos featuring youtalking about the brand and the
sake, so there's a YouTubechannel as well, isn't there?
Keith Norum (30:44):
that's right.
Thank you for reminding me.
The reason I forgot was we didthat during the pandemic.
We had a video company that didthose YouTube things for a
John Puma (30:52):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Keith Norum (30:54):
And, there were a lot of fun.
Thanks to the video company thatwould come in and set it all up
and do them and honestly therewere a lot of fun for me too but
unfortunately that relationshiphad a sort of ending point too.
And so for the last severalyears we just.
At least I haven't been directlyinvolved much with the YouTube
thing.
I would like to get back into itin some way or another, but it
(31:15):
just hasn't happened recently.
Timothy Sullivan (31:16):
it was such a pleasure to talk to you and have
you on the show today.
Uh, thank you so much forjoining us, Keith.
I
Keith Norum (31:24):
No, it was a great pleasure and honor.
Thank you guys for asking me on.
And, uh, I'm sure that thisconversation will continue as we
go along.
Timothy Sullivan (31:33):
hope so.
We can't wait to have you backagain.
All right.
Well, in addition to Keith, Ialso want to thank all of our
listeners for tuning in for eachand every episode and a special
hello and shout out to all ofour Patrons For those of you who
would like to support SakeRevolution, we do have a
(31:53):
Patreon, and we appreciate ourpatrons so much.
They make Sake Revolutionpossible.
If you'd like to learn moreabout supporting us on Patreon,
visitPatreon.com/SakeRevolution.
John Puma (32:05):
Uh, and if you were inspired earlier when Keith
corrected us on the yeast to usein the sake, and you have other
corrections, maybe did we messsomething up?
Is there something that you needto tell us?
Is there a way we can make thisshow better?
We want to hear from you.
We want you to reach out to us,the email address for that.
And if you thought websites wereold email, you can email us at
(32:27):
feedback@sakerevolution.Com.
You can also just get at us onInstagram, Okay.
at SakeRevolutionPod.
We will thank you for your, yourkind words and we'll get back to
you.
Uh, now with that said,everybody please raise your
glass.
Remember to keep drinking sakeand
Timothy Sullivan (32:44):
Kanpai!Kanpai Okay.
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