August 4, 2024 • 33 mins
Episode 170. We were so happy to sit down to chat and sip sake with our friend Ryan Mellinger, the General Manager of the Joto Sake imports portfolio at Kobrand. Ryan explains to us, in an easy to understand way, the intricacies of the complex "three tier system" of alcohol distribution that we have in the States and all that goes into getting fresh and delicious sake all the way from Japan to local stores and restaurants for us to enjoy. Speaking of delicious sake, we also taste an intriguing selection from Joto's portfolio - the Chikurin Fukamari Junmai, which is a sake blended with previous year's batches to give it added depth and dimension. Listen in as we explore all things Joto Sake with Ryan! #SakeRevolution
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Episode Transcript
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John Puma (00:21):
Hello everybody.
And welcome to podcast.
I'm your host, John Puma fromthe Sake Notes.
Also the administrator over atthe Friendly Neighborhood
Internet Sake Discord andReddit's r slash sake community.
Timothy Sullivan (00:35):
And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan.
I'm a Sake Samurai.
I'm a sake educator, as well asthe founder of the Urban Sake
website.
And every week, John and I willbe here tasting and chatting
about all things sake and doingour best to make it fun and easy
to understand.
John Puma (00:53):
Hello, Tim.
How are you doing
Timothy Sullivan (00:54):
I'm doing good.
John Puma (00:56):
I could not help, but notice that the zoom is the
windows in the zoom are a littlesmaller than usual because
there's a third person here.
Timothy Sullivan (01:03):
We have a special guest today.
So
John Puma (01:05):
Aha.
That's what it was.
And who do we have here?
Timothy Sullivan (01:09):
I'm so excited to welcome Ryan Mellinger.
She is a General manager of JotoSake over at Kobrant.
We're going to learn a lot moreabout what she does in sake
sales and distribution.
And we're so excited to haveRyan here today to talk to us
about sake.
Welcome Ryan.
Ryan Mellinger (01:27):
Hi, thank you for having me, John and Tim.
It's a pleasure.
John Puma (01:33):
Yeah.
Tim and I have known Ryan for avery long time.
And it's, it's nice to have youon the show and get into the, I
don't know if we've ever gotteninto the distribution part of
the sake world on the showbefore.
So this is for people listeningat home, remember this is very
U.
S.
centric.
This is how it's done here.
Your local mileage may vary.
(01:53):
Also every state has differentlaws too, which I'm sure we'll
get into a little bit, let'sjust dive right in, you get into
all of this?
How do you tell us about yourbackground?
How do you get into sake?
Ryan Mellinger (02:02):
A very windy road.
I'm very, excited to have thisas my job, selling sake every
day.
but it's definitely notsomething I thought I would be
doing, spending every day doinguh, when I was in college or
whatnot, but, I'm, born andraised New Yorker, grew up in
New York City in downtownManhattan,
John Puma (02:20):
Ooh.
Ryan Mellinger (02:21):
surrounded by amazing restaurants and food
culture and people from allwalks of life.
my parents were big, foodies, Iguess wasn't the word to use
back then, they exposed mybrother and I to a lot of things
growing up.
I always tell people, you know,in New York City, when I was
growing up, there's pizza placeon every corner and there's a
sushi restaurant.
(02:41):
I grew up eating Japanese food,of course.
My tastes have evolved muchsince then.
But so food and restaurantculture has been in my life,
from a young age.
And then, I started working inservice jobs in high school.
I went to college in New York.
I guess I just couldn't leave.
And during that time I started,for work I would, I would do
(03:02):
catering gigs and, started tobecome more interested in the
back of house and cooking.
And when I graduated with adegree from photography, I I
didn't want to sit in front of acomputer all day, and I liked
the pace and the energy of thekitchen, so I should try working
in restaurants.
And I had actually had built alittle catering business of my
(03:23):
own, of clients that werecalling me back and, decided to
just dive in.
So I worked in restaurants inNew York City, for a few years,
very difficult work, especiallyback then as a young woman.
I'm sure it still is.
And hopefully getting better.
And then, I started working formy friend's company who, makes
(03:44):
bean to bar chocolate out ofdowntown Brooklyn.
And that's where I started toreally make friends and learn
about other businesses in RedHook, Brooklyn that were on the
alcohol side of the industry, onthe beverage side.
And it was really exciting.
I was doing a lot of events withthem to help promote Red Hook
and get people to come visit,pairing chocolate with whiskey,
(04:05):
chocolate with beer, chocolatewith wine, and, all the while I
was learning about fermentationalcohol and, by the way,
chocolate is also fermented.
Some people don't know that.
I was learning about sake justthrough my own love of Japanese
food and I was then I wasactively searching to find work
on the beverage side of thebusiness, and Joto sake was
(04:28):
hiring, and I had had sake on myown, was drinking it on my own,
going to Japanese restaurants,but I never sold it.
So I really blindly said, Hey, Ireally love sake.
I want to learn more.
I would like to try to sell itfor a living.
And Henry Seidel at the time andMidori Nakazawa gave me a shot.
And that was 10 years ago.
John Puma (04:49):
I don't know.
Ryan Mellinger (04:50):
So pretty windy road, but following my love for
food and drink led me to sake.
Timothy Sullivan (04:58):
Let me ask you this.
John and I have talked aboutthis so many times, but did you
have one?
particular experience youremember that was your aha
moment or like, Oh my God, sakeis a thing.
Tell us what was your aha
John Puma (05:09):
yes,
Ryan Mellinger (05:10):
You You know, I remember it vividly because one
of my best friends is like mydining partner.
We always go out to goodrestaurants together and we have
dates doing that.
And he and I I didn't have muchmoney in college like anyone and
would afford to go out to thegood restaurants during
restaurant week, and really tookadvantage of that.
And I remember going to ENJapanese Brasserie we were
really excited to go.
(05:31):
I heard all about how they makehomemade tofu and I was sitting
at the bar.
I remember exactly the seat Iwas in and I'd never seen a sake
list like they had.
It was incredible, a littledaunting, but we were very
excited to try.
And I had this amazing glass.
I don't know what it was.
That was so long ago, but Iremember it being umami and a
little bit smoky and just softand creamy.
(05:54):
And I was like This is great.
What have we been drinking?
Because also in New York City,there, in the really cheap days
there's like all these placesthat would just give you like a
free shot of some probably boxsake, or so I was like used to
that kind of variety at thetime.
My first experience with premiumquality sake was eye opening.
John Puma (06:21):
Cool.
That's awesome.
Uh, I, I, it's a shame that youdon't know what it was though,
but I'm glad you know exactlyactually probably more
Ryan Mellinger (06:28):
a chance to go to En, it's a very impressive
restaurant, really beautiful,and just, and still going strong
now.
That was like 15 years ago, Ithink, or maybe longer.
Yeah,
John Puma (06:39):
Yeah,
Ryan Mellinger (06:40):
yes, they are.
John Puma (06:42):
they're own tofu.
know, You went through this, uh,you went through this this whole
thing and now you're You wentdown this windy road and now
you're a uh, Sake division atKobrand uh, tell us, um, you
know.
Tell us a don't you know, aboutJoto?
what's what's Joto If
Ryan Mellinger (06:55):
So Joto
John Puma (06:55):
is like, what's Joto They
Ryan Mellinger (06:56):
the
John Puma (06:56):
So what's Joto
Ryan Mellinger (06:58):
comprised of about 45 different sake.
They're all from 10 differentfamily owned breweries in Japan.
So we're an importing sakecompany.
The company was actually foundedin 2005 by Henry Seidel Shout
out to Henry who had the visionto create a select sake
portfolio that was Joto.
Joto means highest quality.
(07:20):
In practice, that meant having avery focused, curated portfolio
of breweries that had a story totell with great philosophies,
histories unique rice strains,yeast, really bringing, great
quality sake at a range of pricepoints to the United States, and
then In addition to that, havinga really strong focus on the
(07:41):
education side of it, and theaccessibility side, and really
making bridging that gap betweenthe distance, and 2005 was a
very different sake environmentI didn't get involved Henry
didn't hire me until 2014, so ithad already been 10 years sake
building from the ground up inNew York City.
And obviously, Tim, you're partof that and John.
(08:02):
So that's what Joto means.
So I joined the company in 2014and then in 2016, we joined
Kobrand Wine and Spirits, whichis another family owned company
much like our breweries that wasfounded in 1944.
So they have also a veryimpressive history.
And and legacy.
Now, as I said, 10 years later,I am head of the sake division
(08:25):
at Kobrand, so managing our sakeportfolio as general manager.
So I do a lot of differentthings.
I could share with you some ofthem if they're of interest.
Yeah, so
John Puma (08:39):
yeah, let's, uh, give us a few highlights, I
Ryan Mellinger (08:41):
overseas.
With them and our ordering teamshere, I manage inventory and
pricing, coordinating orders andprojections to the future of our
needs across the country.
I develop and manage our salesand marketing budgets, which
sets our priorities for theyears.
I also coordinate annual tripsto Japan with our sales teams
(09:03):
and vice versa, coordinate tripsfor our brewers to come visit us
in the States.
So depending on where you arearound the country, hopefully
there will be events that youcan meet some of our producers.
They do come annually.
I'm also in charge of researchand development for our
portfolio and creating all thepromotional materials.
And then last but not least, Imanage our national sake sales
(09:23):
teams, which currently consistsof three amazing people each
based in California, New York,and Florida.
Timothy Sullivan (09:31):
Now is Joto sake an importer, a distributor?
And could you explain a littlebit about that landscape, how
importing and distribution worksa bit?
Ryan Mellinger (09:41):
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
It's a very layered andsometimes frustrating system
that the United States has uswork with.
But for those not familiar theUnited States has a three tier
regulatory structure for alcoholsales.
Uh, At the top of the tier, thesupply chain are importers, of
(10:02):
products from abroad or, adomestic winery or brewery who
make the alcohol locally.
From there, the producer or theimporter, which is what we do we
must sell the goods into statelevel distributors.
That's the second tier.
There's many distributors acrossthe country some have multi
state distribution, some arejust in one state there's pros
(10:24):
and cons to all sorts of big andsmall, depending on what your
business needs.
And every state has very nittygritty different alcohol laws,
making it even more difficult tonavigate.
And then at the third tier, youhave the retail stores, the
retailers, the restaurants, thebars that the distributor has to
(10:44):
sell into.
So as a, you person walking downthe street and you want to go
buy, beer, a wine, a sake, youhave to buy from a retailer or a
restaurant.
You cannot purchase from thesecond tier distributor or the
importer directly.
So there are exceptions for, aswe know like domestic breweries
or producers to sell direct toconsumer locally, such as Kato
(11:07):
Sake Works in Brooklyn, Kura.
You can go up and order a sakeon tap, but as an importer, I
can't sell you bottle directly.
It's a very complicated, systemthat requires a lot of
experience and knowledge tonavigate successfully.
So you can imagine some of thechallenges that come with
importing something like sake,which is from all the way around
(11:29):
the world and making sure thatinventory is consistent and
fresh.
And that the people selling atall levels are educated and
knowledgeable about what theyhave in their portfolio to sell
their restaurants and retailers.
So that's a large part of our,our job.
But, our team, while we're fourpeople, We work directly with
(11:49):
every level of this tier, sowe're often walking into stores
with our distributor teammatesand making those high level
presentations about our sakesfor their menus or their
shelves.
And, we also host events andtastings directly with those
retailers and restaurantpartners, so it's not hard to
find or engage with us.
But the, all the in between isvery complex and spidery, webby.
(12:12):
Yeah,
Timothy Sullivan (12:13):
Yes.
And all these different tiersand all this is a legacy of the
repeal of prohibition and allthese laws were set up in the
1930s.
And it's just a complicated webto navigate, especially with 50
different states, 50 sets oflaws.
So my heart goes out to you.
It's a lot to navigate, butyou're in the, importing tier.
(12:37):
And, but you, as you just said,you interface with all the
different levels.
So you're repping those sakes todistributors.
You also go to probably retailstores and do tastings and
things like that.
So you're probably really intouch with all those different
levels of sales anddistribution.
Ryan Mellinger (12:55):
yeah.
I think working in sales is oneof the most rewarding and
difficult experiences.
You really learn a lot.
You're on the ground, you'redoing the hard work, you're
talking to every differentperson.
Yeah.
knowledge level interest level,sometimes getting in front of
people who are giving you allthe time in the world, sometimes
people who have no time, right?
(13:17):
And you're making, trying tomake a case no matter what the
day is.
Or, getting people excited aboutsake and making it accessible.
So yeah it is it is.
Very interesting, and I thinkvery rewarding to have worked on
all, with all those differentlevels of the, of not just the
three tier system, but alsoacross the country, because the
needs in New York are verydifferent from the needs in
(13:38):
Ohio, and very different fromwhat Texas likes and what
Miami's drinking.
John Puma (13:43):
Yeah.
One thing I think isinteresting.
So you guys, have likerelatively small group of
breweries that you work with,but you have like really yeah, I
would say pretty deeprelationships with them.
So how do you guys select thosebreweries?
Ryan Mellinger (13:57):
Yeah, I mean, since 2005, we're still only
working with 10 suppliers, or 10breweries.
We have a range of sakes fromthem, so we cover a lot of
ground.
But the legacy that Henry builtand that we have continued at
Kobrand is one that is and hehad obvious help from also other
amazing people who worked forJoto and were my mentors as
well.
But the guiding principle isKeeping it, cohesive,
(14:21):
representing a range of regions,styles, price points but really,
you know, working with, we'reworking with people.
Obviously the sake has to bedelicious and consistent and
survive the journey across fromJapan to the States and, that,
that whole journey and still beconsistently delicious and
fresh.
Which is a major feat of thebrewers, but they have to know
(14:44):
how to do that.
So once we've gotten past thatpoint, and we know that the sake
is delicious and that they havereally interesting story that
makes it fun to talk about orrelatable or intriguing to To
customers.
Then it's about, the people.
It's do we jive?
Are we going to be goodpartners?
Cause we're long term partners.
And that's really, in our mind,the only way to build brands,
(15:05):
that are unknown here.
Some of our breweries are morewell known than others.
Some of them are really, theepitome of jizake and really
just selling locally in theirregion and are rarely found
outside of that area.
It's our job as their importerto make sure that we're building
the recognition correctly andreally educating people
correctly on what makes thisbrewery special.
(15:26):
So we don't have um, sakebreweries.
That are from the same area.
We try and not duplicate anyregion or any style too much.
So, In thinking about how todevelop the portfolio, it's
really what holes do we want tofill?
What stories are we missing?
What styles of sake?
And, or, yeah, what can we do tostay relevant for what the
restaurants and the retailersand the consumers are drinking
(15:48):
now are?
John Puma (15:50):
Nice, nice.
Timothy Sullivan (15:51):
So you told us before about your aha moments
when you discovered sake andbegan enjoying it and it led to
your career.
Love that.
I'm curious, just personally,what are some of your favorite
styles of sake?
Now you don't have to give usany name brands, but what type
of sake do you like to drink onyour own time and how do you
(16:12):
enjoy them?
Ryan Mellinger (16:14):
I'm going to give me an answer you probably
don't like, but I don't have onestyle that I stick to and it
really has morphed throughoutthe years, you know, when I
first started versus what Idrink now, having drunk sake for
so many years frequently but itreally depends on the day or the
weather.
Or what I'm eating.
(16:35):
Today is like 95 degrees in NewYork City.
I want something that's going tofeel crisp and bright and a
little acidity.
Later on I could change my mindand want something that's really
fruity and a little creamy.
I think I really don'tdiscriminate in terms of styles,
but I think I tend to not, whenI'm just going at home for a
(16:56):
bottle or a glass, like JunmaiGinjos I really like pasteurized
sake.
I know it's Namazake and JunmaiDaiginjo all the rage and super
appreciated right now, but Ilike a glass of that.
Sometimes I find they can beoverpowering on the palate or
aromatically so if I'm Planningto have multiple glasses of
(17:16):
something.
It's usually a Junmai or Junmaiginjo, something bright and a
little bit of acidity and reallybalanced and pretty.
I like something that has longlasting flavor too.
Something that has a nice finishthat I can think about.
I don't like sake that areunbalanced or feel too much in
one direction or too short of afinish.
I just, I appreciate a highquality sake.
(17:40):
Now I sound like a real sakesnob.
Timothy Sullivan (17:42):
No, not at all.
Ryan Mellinger (17:44):
It's my job.
What can I say?
John Puma (17:46):
it's your, it is your job though.
Now having said that we.
As is what we do on this show,what We're going to be tasting
some high quality sake.
And this is, so one thing I'venoticed about Joto is that you
guys don't introduce newproducts willy nilly, like the
portfolio is very it's, you guyshave what you have you focus on
it.
You think about, bringing insomething new is a big
Ryan Mellinger (18:06):
hmm.
John Puma (18:07):
And this is new.
So I'm excited because Ipersonally have never tasted
this before.
Tim, I don't know if you have.
Timothy Sullivan (18:13):
Ryan, is it new or is it returning
John Puma (18:16):
Oh, wait a minute.
Hold on a second.
Ryan Mellinger (18:20):
Plot twist.
Timothy Sullivan (18:22):
I'm a hashtag sake senior.
So I re I remember back into theolden days and this sake has
been imported before.
Is that right?
Ryan Mellinger (18:32):
Yes.
Yeah, it was before my time Yes.
Yes, it was over 10 years agothis sake called Chikurin
Fukamari, it's a Junmai.
We import two other Chikurinsakes their Junmai Ginjo and
their Nama Junmai Ginjo.
And this had been imported andthey stopped importing.
(18:55):
I don't think it was as wellreceived, or um, like I said, a
lot has changed in the sakeatmosphere in the United States
in the last 10 years.
really fit a hole for us thatwe've been getting asked for
more and more in the last fouryears or so
John Puma (19:13):
Nice.
Ryan Mellinger (19:14):
certainly.
So it's a reintroduction.
John Puma (19:16):
Aha.
maybe when it was here, likeworld wasn't ready.
America was not yet ready forthis sake and now is the time
for it to come back andhopefully people are ready
Ryan Mellinger (19:25):
Marumoto brewery who makes the sake is such a
dear partner of ours and makesincredible sake and it's
delicious and so many peoplelove it but I think now there's
more of a knowledge base and adesire for it.
More of this umami and highacidity styles of sake.
So this
John Puma (19:46):
now.
Ryan Mellinger (19:47):
yeah.
And part of what that's allabout is about the method in
which he bottles the sake.
I don't know if you want to gothrough some of the specs or
John Puma (19:56):
Yeah.
Yeah let's talk a little bitabout that there.
All right, so the specs of theChikurin Fukamari Junm ai.
This is as Ryan mentioned fromuh, Zo over in Ohkayama this is
um, using Yamada Nishiki despitebeing in Okayama, they're using
Yamada Nishiki on the sake.
It's milled down to 60 percentof its original size.
The sake meter value is plus twoand the acidity is 1.
(20:20):
4.
Oh, and then we've got yeastinformation for this too.
How nice.
Yeast number nine.
Ryan Mellinger (20:26):
and the Yamada Nishiki I mentioned is
homegrown.
They're nicknamed a farmer'sbrewery because the farmers who
grow the rice are also thebrewers who make the sake.
So he grows all of his ownYamada Nishiki rice.
John Puma (20:39):
Excellent.
Timothy Sullivan (20:40):
Yeah.
So this again is the ChikurinFukamari.
Junmai.
And this word Fukumari, Ryan,what does that signify?
Ryan Mellinger (20:50):
So this depth or deepness or richness is all
about the layers of the sake.
So Marumoto San with this sakeis playing with aging in a way.
So more flavors are revealed.
Over time with drinking, there'sa more roundness that you'll
pick up.
(21:10):
So the method in which this isdone is, every brewing year, he
makes a fresh batch of theFukumari recipe.
And he then takes that freshsake and blends it with last
year's sake and two years ago,sake that have been stored as
nama and negative five degreesCelsius.
Timothy Sullivan (21:31):
Oh my God.
John Puma (21:32):
Okay.
Ryan Mellinger (21:34):
that's what makes the consistent.
batch of sake, and that'sactually how the Karuyaka Junmai
Ginjo is made.
Then he takes sake that's beenbottled from anywhere from three
to eight years ago with thatsame process and blends it into
the bottle before pasteurizing.
So this bottle of Fukumari hasanywhere from three to eight
(21:57):
years aged sake in it, butactually, It's like a solaris
system in that you really can'ttell how long because there's
always a little bit being addedinto the next batch and he's
storing that for later.
Very fascinating process.
That's I'd never heard ofbefore.
Completely, I believe,completely proprietary to him.
Is adding this depth and layersto the sake.
John Puma (22:19):
I've definitely never heard of something like that
before.
Tim, what about you?
Timothy Sullivan (22:23):
No, that sounds so exciting.
And it makes me want to get thesake in the glass right away.
So I think we should do that.
John Puma (22:32):
We have the technology.
let's go ahead and put some ofthat in a glass.
Remember typically on sakerevolution, we use wine glasses
here.
You've got one at home.
Don't worry.
Too much about finding the rightvessel.
Timothy Sullivan (22:52):
All right.
So when I look at this, Ryan, inthe glass, it looks like there
is a some hint of yellow colorto this sake and that would be
totally in line with the factthat this is a blend of several
years, up to eight years.
Ryan Mellinger (23:07):
Yes yeah, that typically is indicative of a
little bit of added storage timeor also a low filtration.
So yes, it's certainly not awater white, just a little bit
of like a straw tint.
Timothy Sullivan (23:24):
Let's give it a smell.
John Puma (23:27):
And there, you can definitely tell this is
something that has some age onit.
Ryan Mellinger (23:32):
Yeah, I get a lot of the tertiary sort of
components, a little bit ofthere's a lot of umami, a little
bit of pickled almost there'slike a slight saltiness, very
appealing, not over the top,still very pretty, and I think
balanced really well in theglass.
I'm also drinking mine justslightly chilled.
It's been almost roomtemperature right now,
John Puma (23:52):
yeah.
I think mine is very similar.
Timothy Sullivan (23:55):
Yeah, for me, the aroma is a little bit like
almost hints, some hints ofmochi rice on the rice side, and
then a little bit of hay orstraw.
There's like a A note like thatin there for me, but definitely
umami as well.
John Puma (24:11):
Yeah, the umami is to me like the first thing I'm
noticing and I'm like oh, thisis going to be very umami laden.
Ryan Mellinger (24:17):
Should we taste?
Timothy Sullivan (24:18):
Yeah.
John Puma (24:19):
think the way I think we do.
Timothy Sullivan (24:21):
There, there are layers here.
This is layered and deep.
It's aptly named.
For
Ryan Mellinger (24:29):
We try.
Timothy Sullivan (24:32):
Yeah.
Ryan Mellinger (24:34):
some of the tasting notes that we, our team
talked about.
There's a little bit of almostlike a dried apricot, but also a
little bit of fresh kind of alittle stone fruit, but it's not
like a bright stone fruit.
A little more richer.
There's a little bit of likewoodsiness, like a little cedar
kind of quality, like you cantaste the koji making.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's very creamy and has niceacidity.
(24:59):
The alcohol is only 15%, so it'snot super high.
So it makes me want to keepdrinking.
John Puma (25:06):
It is.
So it's weird for me personallyyour umami sake is, I don't
think of things being likeexcessively sippable because the
umami it's it's very you thinkheavier, more challenging.
At least I do.
But I've sipped this six timessince we started tasting and I'm
like, I keep going back and goand have another little sip and
then, oh, I'll just have anotherlittle
Ryan Mellinger (25:25):
Isn't it umami?
Like all the things that makeyou want to keep eating them,
like cheese and all those thingsthat are just, it's that
deliciousness, that sort ofscrump, like unctuous flavor
profile that makes you just wantto keep having more.
I think this would be a reallyfun pairing with a lot of
different things.
I have some leftover roastchicken in my fridge I will have
(25:47):
for dinner tonight with this andprobably some pita bread and I
think, and some tomato actually.
I think that would be likereally nice.
But You can have fun with sake.
That's the best part.
I know you guys know.
I hope the people listening knowyou can pair with many different
things, but this certainly lendsitself to, I think, things that
are cooked or roasted or pickledor, yeah.
John Puma (26:10):
Yeah.
I think that when we had MonicaSamuels on a very long time ago,
another another importer she hada very great comment that was
like, don't be precious withyour sake when it comes to
pairing.
Just have, eat whatever,whether, experiment, have fun,
be, don't overthink it.
And I thought, I always thoughtthat was a really interesting
idea.
It was like, cause we, I think alot of people do get into that
headspace of we need to presentthis with something very, very
(26:31):
special.
Blah, blah, blah,
Ryan Mellinger (26:32):
I think that's one of the biggest challenges
that our sake industry faces inorder, if our goal is to
increase sake sales andeducation around the United
States, is that we need to getpeople to think outside of the
traditional pairings and fordrinking sake.
John Puma (26:46):
absolutely.
I think that's that's the key,is the key to to sake's growth
is getting it out of theJapanese restaurant.
Nothing against the Japaneserestaurants.
I love them, but but getting itinto places that don't, that
aren't like, Japanese cuisine orsomething like that.
Just having it someplace thatjust has, like American food is
such a, a game changer, I think.
And it's the thing that, that'sthat everybody's searching for.
Ryan Mellinger (27:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
If you can get tequila and, winefrom all parts of the world and
any place on the corner, why notsake?
John Puma (27:16):
Yeah.
That's the world I wanna livein.
Yes,
Timothy Sullivan (27:25):
Ryan, I wanted to ask you if you had any
stories or any anecdotes fromthis producer, from Marumoto san
or from the Chikurin brand?
Ryan Mellinger (27:38):
Yeah.
Anyone who has had the pleasureto meet Muramoto san know that
he is such a gem such a lovely,endearing brewer and person.
He is really multifaceted.
this is in Okayama, in a verycountryside region, Asakuchi,
and they're at the base of thesemountains, so it's, there's not
(27:59):
a lot else but farmland and ricepaddies around, but he spends
his time, really, he thinks alot about it.
And yeah.
Sake making and what it means inmore of a philosophical sense.
So I know he spends a lot oftime meditating and cares a lot
about energy and what he putsinto the sake.
But then on the other side, heis also a house music dj.
(28:21):
He is got.
Blue Russian cats around thehouse.
He goes on motorcycle ridesbackpacking trips in the summer
when he can, when he's notbrewing sake.
He has got a lot of interestoutside of sake, which I think
really shows in the differenttypes of sake he makes.
So the Chikurin brand is a veryserious, beautiful, all estate
(28:42):
grown sake rice and using timein different ways.
So we have also namazake fromthem, which has no storage or
aging, and the karuyaka has alittle bit.
And then he also is the producerof hohoshu sparkling sake.
So very fun, youthful, pink andblue, bright colored sparkling
sake.
And he is also the brewer thatmakes the Joto graffiti cup that
(29:05):
we import.
So a little bit of fine diningand casual.
He likes to experiment
John Puma (29:11):
that's cool.
I'm still wrapping my headaround the house music DJ bit,
Timothy Sullivan (29:14):
Well,
John Puma (29:15):
that's awesome.
Timothy Sullivan (29:15):
John, I have to ask you, do you think that I
have visited this brewery in thepast?
John Puma (29:20):
I probably,
Timothy Sullivan (29:23):
I
John Puma (29:24):
statistically speaking, yes,
Timothy Sullivan (29:26):
I visited Marumoto Shuzo in 2008 in
October.
And so that goes way, way back.
And I have two quick storiesabout Marumoto san.
I agree.
He is a gem of a person.
And Regarding the DJ thing, hebrought me into his living room.
I was there by myself and heplopped me in the middle of the
(29:47):
couch and he said, I want toplay something for you.
And he put on classical musicand he wheeled in these big
speakers.
These are like six foot tallspeakers on either side of me.
And he wanted me to have thisexperience of hearing the music
from these surround sound.
And he also took the time todrive me around his Brewery area
(30:09):
and he showed me every singlerice field that he maintains and
they're all separate.
Some of them are super tiny, butthey are all his babies.
And he wanted to show me eachand every one where he's growing
rice, even though they're notconnected and they're spread
around the area.
And it was such dedication tothe rice growing side of it,
(30:31):
which is not usual for brewersbecause they usually just buy
the rice.
So those are.
Two of my impressions from mytrip way back when, but I
totally agree.
He's a gem.
Nothing's changed.
And these sakes are amazing thathe makes.
John Puma (30:45):
That's that.
That's awesome.
Timothy Sullivan (30:46):
This has been just fantastic to have you on
Ryan.
It's been so much fun to learnabout the Joto portfolio, a
little bit about your backgroundand particularly about.
This Chikurin brand and theFukamari in particular.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Before we say goodbye, I wantedto ask if you'd like to share
(31:09):
any ways that our listeners canconnect with you or connect with
Joto online.
What's the best way to learnmore about what you do?
Ryan Mellinger (31:17):
Thank you both for all the work you do in
educating and making thispodcast, inviting me.
I love to talk about sake, soanytime.
For those who would like tolearn more about what we do A
great way is to visit ourwebsite, jotosake.
com, j o t o s a k e, and alsoour Instagram at jotosake, which
(31:41):
I also manage and try topopulate with fun videos right
from the breweries so you cansee certain processes live in
action.
And yeah, we can't wait to seeyou or visit you in your city
nearby sometime.
And thanks for tuning in.
Timothy Sullivan (31:58):
Thanks again, Ryan.
Thanks so much for joining usand sharing this delicious sake
with us.
Such a pleasure to have youtoday.
I also want to thank all of ourlisteners for tuning in and
joining us.
We really do hope that you'reenjoying our show.
Now, if you'd like to show yoursupport for Sake Revolution, the
best way to support us is tovisit our community on Patreon.
(32:19):
We're a listener supported show.
And if you'd like to join us andsupport Sake Revolution, please
visit Patreon.com/SakeRevolutionto learn more.
John Puma (32:29):
Before we go, Tim, where can people find you on the
internet?
Timothy Sullivan (32:33):
Oh thank you for asking.
If you're looking to learn moreabout my work, you can visit
urban sake.com, the website orUrban Sake on Instagram.
I'm also teaching classes at theSake Studies Center, so sake
studies center.com, or sakeStudies Center on Instagram, and
(32:53):
as always, Sake Revolution,
John Puma (32:56):
Yeah, I think that's a given one.
Timothy Sullivan (32:57):
how about you, John
John Puma (32:59):
Social media stuff is going to be for me personally,
John Puma, NYC and then over atthe Sake Notes where my wife and
I post our sake adventuresoccasionally, and we have a good
time doing so.
On that note.
Please raise your glass.
Remember to keep drinking sakeand Kampai.
And
Hello everybody.
And welcome to podcast.
I'm your host, John Puma fromthe Sake Notes.
Also the administrator over atthe Friendly Neighborhood
Internet Sake Discord andReddit's r slash sake community.
Timothy Sullivan (00:35):
And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan.
I'm a Sake Samurai.
I'm a sake educator, as well asthe founder of the Urban Sake
website.
And every week, John and I willbe here tasting and chatting
about all things sake and doingour best to make it fun and easy
to understand.
John Puma (00:53):
Hello, Tim.
How are you doing
Timothy Sullivan (00:54):
I'm doing good.
John Puma (00:56):
I could not help, but notice that the zoom is the
windows in the zoom are a littlesmaller than usual because
there's a third person here.
Timothy Sullivan (01:03):
We have a special guest today.
So
John Puma (01:05):
Aha.
That's what it was.
And who do we have here?
Timothy Sullivan (01:09):
I'm so excited to welcome Ryan Mellinger.
She is a General manager of JotoSake over at Kobrant.
We're going to learn a lot moreabout what she does in sake
sales and distribution.
And we're so excited to haveRyan here today to talk to us
about sake.
Welcome Ryan.
Ryan Mellinger (01:27):
Hi, thank you for having me, John and Tim.
It's a pleasure.
John Puma (01:33):
Yeah.
Tim and I have known Ryan for avery long time.
And it's, it's nice to have youon the show and get into the, I
don't know if we've ever gotteninto the distribution part of
the sake world on the showbefore.
So this is for people listeningat home, remember this is very
U.
S.
centric.
This is how it's done here.
Your local mileage may vary.
(01:53):
Also every state has differentlaws too, which I'm sure we'll
get into a little bit, let'sjust dive right in, you get into
all of this?
How do you tell us about yourbackground?
How do you get into sake?
Ryan Mellinger (02:02):
A very windy road.
I'm very, excited to have thisas my job, selling sake every
day.
but it's definitely notsomething I thought I would be
doing, spending every day doinguh, when I was in college or
whatnot, but, I'm, born andraised New Yorker, grew up in
New York City in downtownManhattan,
John Puma (02:20):
Ooh.
Ryan Mellinger (02:21):
surrounded by amazing restaurants and food
culture and people from allwalks of life.
my parents were big, foodies, Iguess wasn't the word to use
back then, they exposed mybrother and I to a lot of things
growing up.
I always tell people, you know,in New York City, when I was
growing up, there's pizza placeon every corner and there's a
sushi restaurant.
(02:41):
I grew up eating Japanese food,of course.
My tastes have evolved muchsince then.
But so food and restaurantculture has been in my life,
from a young age.
And then, I started working inservice jobs in high school.
I went to college in New York.
I guess I just couldn't leave.
And during that time I started,for work I would, I would do
(03:02):
catering gigs and, started tobecome more interested in the
back of house and cooking.
And when I graduated with adegree from photography, I I
didn't want to sit in front of acomputer all day, and I liked
the pace and the energy of thekitchen, so I should try working
in restaurants.
And I had actually had built alittle catering business of my
(03:23):
own, of clients that werecalling me back and, decided to
just dive in.
So I worked in restaurants inNew York City, for a few years,
very difficult work, especiallyback then as a young woman.
I'm sure it still is.
And hopefully getting better.
And then, I started working formy friend's company who, makes
(03:44):
bean to bar chocolate out ofdowntown Brooklyn.
And that's where I started toreally make friends and learn
about other businesses in RedHook, Brooklyn that were on the
alcohol side of the industry, onthe beverage side.
And it was really exciting.
I was doing a lot of events withthem to help promote Red Hook
and get people to come visit,pairing chocolate with whiskey,
(04:05):
chocolate with beer, chocolatewith wine, and, all the while I
was learning about fermentationalcohol and, by the way,
chocolate is also fermented.
Some people don't know that.
I was learning about sake justthrough my own love of Japanese
food and I was then I wasactively searching to find work
on the beverage side of thebusiness, and Joto sake was
(04:28):
hiring, and I had had sake on myown, was drinking it on my own,
going to Japanese restaurants,but I never sold it.
So I really blindly said, Hey, Ireally love sake.
I want to learn more.
I would like to try to sell itfor a living.
And Henry Seidel at the time andMidori Nakazawa gave me a shot.
And that was 10 years ago.
John Puma (04:49):
I don't know.
Ryan Mellinger (04:50):
So pretty windy road, but following my love for
food and drink led me to sake.
Timothy Sullivan (04:58):
Let me ask you this.
John and I have talked aboutthis so many times, but did you
have one?
particular experience youremember that was your aha
moment or like, Oh my God, sakeis a thing.
Tell us what was your aha
John Puma (05:09):
yes,
Ryan Mellinger (05:10):
You You know, I remember it vividly because one
of my best friends is like mydining partner.
We always go out to goodrestaurants together and we have
dates doing that.
And he and I I didn't have muchmoney in college like anyone and
would afford to go out to thegood restaurants during
restaurant week, and really tookadvantage of that.
And I remember going to ENJapanese Brasserie we were
really excited to go.
(05:31):
I heard all about how they makehomemade tofu and I was sitting
at the bar.
I remember exactly the seat Iwas in and I'd never seen a sake
list like they had.
It was incredible, a littledaunting, but we were very
excited to try.
And I had this amazing glass.
I don't know what it was.
That was so long ago, but Iremember it being umami and a
little bit smoky and just softand creamy.
(05:54):
And I was like This is great.
What have we been drinking?
Because also in New York City,there, in the really cheap days
there's like all these placesthat would just give you like a
free shot of some probably boxsake, or so I was like used to
that kind of variety at thetime.
My first experience with premiumquality sake was eye opening.
John Puma (06:21):
Cool.
That's awesome.
Uh, I, I, it's a shame that youdon't know what it was though,
but I'm glad you know exactlyactually probably more
Ryan Mellinger (06:28):
a chance to go to En, it's a very impressive
restaurant, really beautiful,and just, and still going strong
now.
That was like 15 years ago, Ithink, or maybe longer.
Yeah,
John Puma (06:39):
Yeah,
Ryan Mellinger (06:40):
yes, they are.
John Puma (06:42):
they're own tofu.
know, You went through this, uh,you went through this this whole
thing and now you're You wentdown this windy road and now
you're a uh, Sake division atKobrand uh, tell us, um, you
know.
Tell us a don't you know, aboutJoto?
what's what's Joto If
Ryan Mellinger (06:55):
So Joto
John Puma (06:55):
is like, what's Joto They
Ryan Mellinger (06:56):
the
John Puma (06:56):
So what's Joto
Ryan Mellinger (06:58):
comprised of about 45 different sake.
They're all from 10 differentfamily owned breweries in Japan.
So we're an importing sakecompany.
The company was actually foundedin 2005 by Henry Seidel Shout
out to Henry who had the visionto create a select sake
portfolio that was Joto.
Joto means highest quality.
(07:20):
In practice, that meant having avery focused, curated portfolio
of breweries that had a story totell with great philosophies,
histories unique rice strains,yeast, really bringing, great
quality sake at a range of pricepoints to the United States, and
then In addition to that, havinga really strong focus on the
(07:41):
education side of it, and theaccessibility side, and really
making bridging that gap betweenthe distance, and 2005 was a
very different sake environmentI didn't get involved Henry
didn't hire me until 2014, so ithad already been 10 years sake
building from the ground up inNew York City.
And obviously, Tim, you're partof that and John.
(08:02):
So that's what Joto means.
So I joined the company in 2014and then in 2016, we joined
Kobrand Wine and Spirits, whichis another family owned company
much like our breweries that wasfounded in 1944.
So they have also a veryimpressive history.
And and legacy.
Now, as I said, 10 years later,I am head of the sake division
(08:25):
at Kobrand, so managing our sakeportfolio as general manager.
So I do a lot of differentthings.
I could share with you some ofthem if they're of interest.
Yeah, so
John Puma (08:39):
yeah, let's, uh, give us a few highlights, I
Ryan Mellinger (08:41):
overseas.
With them and our ordering teamshere, I manage inventory and
pricing, coordinating orders andprojections to the future of our
needs across the country.
I develop and manage our salesand marketing budgets, which
sets our priorities for theyears.
I also coordinate annual tripsto Japan with our sales teams
(09:03):
and vice versa, coordinate tripsfor our brewers to come visit us
in the States.
So depending on where you arearound the country, hopefully
there will be events that youcan meet some of our producers.
They do come annually.
I'm also in charge of researchand development for our
portfolio and creating all thepromotional materials.
And then last but not least, Imanage our national sake sales
(09:23):
teams, which currently consistsof three amazing people each
based in California, New York,and Florida.
Timothy Sullivan (09:31):
Now is Joto sake an importer, a distributor?
And could you explain a littlebit about that landscape, how
importing and distribution worksa bit?
Ryan Mellinger (09:41):
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
It's a very layered andsometimes frustrating system
that the United States has uswork with.
But for those not familiar theUnited States has a three tier
regulatory structure for alcoholsales.
Uh, At the top of the tier, thesupply chain are importers, of
(10:02):
products from abroad or, adomestic winery or brewery who
make the alcohol locally.
From there, the producer or theimporter, which is what we do we
must sell the goods into statelevel distributors.
That's the second tier.
There's many distributors acrossthe country some have multi
state distribution, some arejust in one state there's pros
(10:24):
and cons to all sorts of big andsmall, depending on what your
business needs.
And every state has very nittygritty different alcohol laws,
making it even more difficult tonavigate.
And then at the third tier, youhave the retail stores, the
retailers, the restaurants, thebars that the distributor has to
(10:44):
sell into.
So as a, you person walking downthe street and you want to go
buy, beer, a wine, a sake, youhave to buy from a retailer or a
restaurant.
You cannot purchase from thesecond tier distributor or the
importer directly.
So there are exceptions for, aswe know like domestic breweries
or producers to sell direct toconsumer locally, such as Kato
(11:07):
Sake Works in Brooklyn, Kura.
You can go up and order a sakeon tap, but as an importer, I
can't sell you bottle directly.
It's a very complicated, systemthat requires a lot of
experience and knowledge tonavigate successfully.
So you can imagine some of thechallenges that come with
importing something like sake,which is from all the way around
(11:29):
the world and making sure thatinventory is consistent and
fresh.
And that the people selling atall levels are educated and
knowledgeable about what theyhave in their portfolio to sell
their restaurants and retailers.
So that's a large part of our,our job.
But, our team, while we're fourpeople, We work directly with
(11:49):
every level of this tier, sowe're often walking into stores
with our distributor teammatesand making those high level
presentations about our sakesfor their menus or their
shelves.
And, we also host events andtastings directly with those
retailers and restaurantpartners, so it's not hard to
find or engage with us.
But the, all the in between isvery complex and spidery, webby.
(12:12):
Yeah,
Timothy Sullivan (12:13):
Yes.
And all these different tiersand all this is a legacy of the
repeal of prohibition and allthese laws were set up in the
1930s.
And it's just a complicated webto navigate, especially with 50
different states, 50 sets oflaws.
So my heart goes out to you.
It's a lot to navigate, butyou're in the, importing tier.
(12:37):
And, but you, as you just said,you interface with all the
different levels.
So you're repping those sakes todistributors.
You also go to probably retailstores and do tastings and
things like that.
So you're probably really intouch with all those different
levels of sales anddistribution.
Ryan Mellinger (12:55):
yeah.
I think working in sales is oneof the most rewarding and
difficult experiences.
You really learn a lot.
You're on the ground, you'redoing the hard work, you're
talking to every differentperson.
Yeah.
knowledge level interest level,sometimes getting in front of
people who are giving you allthe time in the world, sometimes
people who have no time, right?
(13:17):
And you're making, trying tomake a case no matter what the
day is.
Or, getting people excited aboutsake and making it accessible.
So yeah it is it is.
Very interesting, and I thinkvery rewarding to have worked on
all, with all those differentlevels of the, of not just the
three tier system, but alsoacross the country, because the
needs in New York are verydifferent from the needs in
(13:38):
Ohio, and very different fromwhat Texas likes and what
Miami's drinking.
John Puma (13:43):
Yeah.
One thing I think isinteresting.
So you guys, have likerelatively small group of
breweries that you work with,but you have like really yeah, I
would say pretty deeprelationships with them.
So how do you guys select thosebreweries?
Ryan Mellinger (13:57):
Yeah, I mean, since 2005, we're still only
working with 10 suppliers, or 10breweries.
We have a range of sakes fromthem, so we cover a lot of
ground.
But the legacy that Henry builtand that we have continued at
Kobrand is one that is and hehad obvious help from also other
amazing people who worked forJoto and were my mentors as
well.
But the guiding principle isKeeping it, cohesive,
(14:21):
representing a range of regions,styles, price points but really,
you know, working with, we'reworking with people.
Obviously the sake has to bedelicious and consistent and
survive the journey across fromJapan to the States and, that,
that whole journey and still beconsistently delicious and
fresh.
Which is a major feat of thebrewers, but they have to know
(14:44):
how to do that.
So once we've gotten past thatpoint, and we know that the sake
is delicious and that they havereally interesting story that
makes it fun to talk about orrelatable or intriguing to To
customers.
Then it's about, the people.
It's do we jive?
Are we going to be goodpartners?
Cause we're long term partners.
And that's really, in our mind,the only way to build brands,
(15:05):
that are unknown here.
Some of our breweries are morewell known than others.
Some of them are really, theepitome of jizake and really
just selling locally in theirregion and are rarely found
outside of that area.
It's our job as their importerto make sure that we're building
the recognition correctly andreally educating people
correctly on what makes thisbrewery special.
(15:26):
So we don't have um, sakebreweries.
That are from the same area.
We try and not duplicate anyregion or any style too much.
So, In thinking about how todevelop the portfolio, it's
really what holes do we want tofill?
What stories are we missing?
What styles of sake?
And, or, yeah, what can we do tostay relevant for what the
restaurants and the retailersand the consumers are drinking
(15:48):
now are?
John Puma (15:50):
Nice, nice.
Timothy Sullivan (15:51):
So you told us before about your aha moments
when you discovered sake andbegan enjoying it and it led to
your career.
Love that.
I'm curious, just personally,what are some of your favorite
styles of sake?
Now you don't have to give usany name brands, but what type
of sake do you like to drink onyour own time and how do you
(16:12):
enjoy them?
Ryan Mellinger (16:14):
I'm going to give me an answer you probably
don't like, but I don't have onestyle that I stick to and it
really has morphed throughoutthe years, you know, when I
first started versus what Idrink now, having drunk sake for
so many years frequently but itreally depends on the day or the
weather.
Or what I'm eating.
(16:35):
Today is like 95 degrees in NewYork City.
I want something that's going tofeel crisp and bright and a
little acidity.
Later on I could change my mindand want something that's really
fruity and a little creamy.
I think I really don'tdiscriminate in terms of styles,
but I think I tend to not, whenI'm just going at home for a
(16:56):
bottle or a glass, like JunmaiGinjos I really like pasteurized
sake.
I know it's Namazake and JunmaiDaiginjo all the rage and super
appreciated right now, but Ilike a glass of that.
Sometimes I find they can beoverpowering on the palate or
aromatically so if I'm Planningto have multiple glasses of
(17:16):
something.
It's usually a Junmai or Junmaiginjo, something bright and a
little bit of acidity and reallybalanced and pretty.
I like something that has longlasting flavor too.
Something that has a nice finishthat I can think about.
I don't like sake that areunbalanced or feel too much in
one direction or too short of afinish.
I just, I appreciate a highquality sake.
(17:40):
Now I sound like a real sakesnob.
Timothy Sullivan (17:42):
No, not at all.
Ryan Mellinger (17:44):
It's my job.
What can I say?
John Puma (17:46):
it's your, it is your job though.
Now having said that we.
As is what we do on this show,what We're going to be tasting
some high quality sake.
And this is, so one thing I'venoticed about Joto is that you
guys don't introduce newproducts willy nilly, like the
portfolio is very it's, you guyshave what you have you focus on
it.
You think about, bringing insomething new is a big
Ryan Mellinger (18:06):
hmm.
John Puma (18:07):
And this is new.
So I'm excited because Ipersonally have never tasted
this before.
Tim, I don't know if you have.
Timothy Sullivan (18:13):
Ryan, is it new or is it returning
John Puma (18:16):
Oh, wait a minute.
Hold on a second.
Ryan Mellinger (18:20):
Plot twist.
Timothy Sullivan (18:22):
I'm a hashtag sake senior.
So I re I remember back into theolden days and this sake has
been imported before.
Is that right?
Ryan Mellinger (18:32):
Yes.
Yeah, it was before my time Yes.
Yes, it was over 10 years agothis sake called Chikurin
Fukamari, it's a Junmai.
We import two other Chikurinsakes their Junmai Ginjo and
their Nama Junmai Ginjo.
And this had been imported andthey stopped importing.
(18:55):
I don't think it was as wellreceived, or um, like I said, a
lot has changed in the sakeatmosphere in the United States
in the last 10 years.
really fit a hole for us thatwe've been getting asked for
more and more in the last fouryears or so
John Puma (19:13):
Nice.
Ryan Mellinger (19:14):
certainly.
So it's a reintroduction.
John Puma (19:16):
Aha.
maybe when it was here, likeworld wasn't ready.
America was not yet ready forthis sake and now is the time
for it to come back andhopefully people are ready
Ryan Mellinger (19:25):
Marumoto brewery who makes the sake is such a
dear partner of ours and makesincredible sake and it's
delicious and so many peoplelove it but I think now there's
more of a knowledge base and adesire for it.
More of this umami and highacidity styles of sake.
So this
John Puma (19:46):
now.
Ryan Mellinger (19:47):
yeah.
And part of what that's allabout is about the method in
which he bottles the sake.
I don't know if you want to gothrough some of the specs or
John Puma (19:56):
Yeah.
Yeah let's talk a little bitabout that there.
All right, so the specs of theChikurin Fukamari Junm ai.
This is as Ryan mentioned fromuh, Zo over in Ohkayama this is
um, using Yamada Nishiki despitebeing in Okayama, they're using
Yamada Nishiki on the sake.
It's milled down to 60 percentof its original size.
The sake meter value is plus twoand the acidity is 1.
(20:20):
4.
Oh, and then we've got yeastinformation for this too.
How nice.
Yeast number nine.
Ryan Mellinger (20:26):
and the Yamada Nishiki I mentioned is
homegrown.
They're nicknamed a farmer'sbrewery because the farmers who
grow the rice are also thebrewers who make the sake.
So he grows all of his ownYamada Nishiki rice.
John Puma (20:39):
Excellent.
Timothy Sullivan (20:40):
Yeah.
So this again is the ChikurinFukamari.
Junmai.
And this word Fukumari, Ryan,what does that signify?
Ryan Mellinger (20:50):
So this depth or deepness or richness is all
about the layers of the sake.
So Marumoto San with this sakeis playing with aging in a way.
So more flavors are revealed.
Over time with drinking, there'sa more roundness that you'll
pick up.
(21:10):
So the method in which this isdone is, every brewing year, he
makes a fresh batch of theFukumari recipe.
And he then takes that freshsake and blends it with last
year's sake and two years ago,sake that have been stored as
nama and negative five degreesCelsius.
Timothy Sullivan (21:31):
Oh my God.
John Puma (21:32):
Okay.
Ryan Mellinger (21:34):
that's what makes the consistent.
batch of sake, and that'sactually how the Karuyaka Junmai
Ginjo is made.
Then he takes sake that's beenbottled from anywhere from three
to eight years ago with thatsame process and blends it into
the bottle before pasteurizing.
So this bottle of Fukumari hasanywhere from three to eight
(21:57):
years aged sake in it, butactually, It's like a solaris
system in that you really can'ttell how long because there's
always a little bit being addedinto the next batch and he's
storing that for later.
Very fascinating process.
That's I'd never heard ofbefore.
Completely, I believe,completely proprietary to him.
Is adding this depth and layersto the sake.
John Puma (22:19):
I've definitely never heard of something like that
before.
Tim, what about you?
Timothy Sullivan (22:23):
No, that sounds so exciting.
And it makes me want to get thesake in the glass right away.
So I think we should do that.
John Puma (22:32):
We have the technology.
let's go ahead and put some ofthat in a glass.
Remember typically on sakerevolution, we use wine glasses
here.
You've got one at home.
Don't worry.
Too much about finding the rightvessel.
Timothy Sullivan (22:52):
All right.
So when I look at this, Ryan, inthe glass, it looks like there
is a some hint of yellow colorto this sake and that would be
totally in line with the factthat this is a blend of several
years, up to eight years.
Ryan Mellinger (23:07):
Yes yeah, that typically is indicative of a
little bit of added storage timeor also a low filtration.
So yes, it's certainly not awater white, just a little bit
of like a straw tint.
Timothy Sullivan (23:24):
Let's give it a smell.
John Puma (23:27):
And there, you can definitely tell this is
something that has some age onit.
Ryan Mellinger (23:32):
Yeah, I get a lot of the tertiary sort of
components, a little bit ofthere's a lot of umami, a little
bit of pickled almost there'slike a slight saltiness, very
appealing, not over the top,still very pretty, and I think
balanced really well in theglass.
I'm also drinking mine justslightly chilled.
It's been almost roomtemperature right now,
John Puma (23:52):
yeah.
I think mine is very similar.
Timothy Sullivan (23:55):
Yeah, for me, the aroma is a little bit like
almost hints, some hints ofmochi rice on the rice side, and
then a little bit of hay orstraw.
There's like a A note like thatin there for me, but definitely
umami as well.
John Puma (24:11):
Yeah, the umami is to me like the first thing I'm
noticing and I'm like oh, thisis going to be very umami laden.
Ryan Mellinger (24:17):
Should we taste?
Timothy Sullivan (24:18):
Yeah.
John Puma (24:19):
think the way I think we do.
Timothy Sullivan (24:21):
There, there are layers here.
This is layered and deep.
It's aptly named.
For
Ryan Mellinger (24:29):
We try.
Timothy Sullivan (24:32):
Yeah.
Ryan Mellinger (24:34):
some of the tasting notes that we, our team
talked about.
There's a little bit of almostlike a dried apricot, but also a
little bit of fresh kind of alittle stone fruit, but it's not
like a bright stone fruit.
A little more richer.
There's a little bit of likewoodsiness, like a little cedar
kind of quality, like you cantaste the koji making.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's very creamy and has niceacidity.
(24:59):
The alcohol is only 15%, so it'snot super high.
So it makes me want to keepdrinking.
John Puma (25:06):
It is.
So it's weird for me personallyyour umami sake is, I don't
think of things being likeexcessively sippable because the
umami it's it's very you thinkheavier, more challenging.
At least I do.
But I've sipped this six timessince we started tasting and I'm
like, I keep going back and goand have another little sip and
then, oh, I'll just have anotherlittle
Ryan Mellinger (25:25):
Isn't it umami?
Like all the things that makeyou want to keep eating them,
like cheese and all those thingsthat are just, it's that
deliciousness, that sort ofscrump, like unctuous flavor
profile that makes you just wantto keep having more.
I think this would be a reallyfun pairing with a lot of
different things.
I have some leftover roastchicken in my fridge I will have
(25:47):
for dinner tonight with this andprobably some pita bread and I
think, and some tomato actually.
I think that would be likereally nice.
But You can have fun with sake.
That's the best part.
I know you guys know.
I hope the people listening knowyou can pair with many different
things, but this certainly lendsitself to, I think, things that
are cooked or roasted or pickledor, yeah.
John Puma (26:10):
Yeah.
I think that when we had MonicaSamuels on a very long time ago,
another another importer she hada very great comment that was
like, don't be precious withyour sake when it comes to
pairing.
Just have, eat whatever,whether, experiment, have fun,
be, don't overthink it.
And I thought, I always thoughtthat was a really interesting
idea.
It was like, cause we, I think alot of people do get into that
headspace of we need to presentthis with something very, very
(26:31):
special.
Blah, blah, blah,
Ryan Mellinger (26:32):
I think that's one of the biggest challenges
that our sake industry faces inorder, if our goal is to
increase sake sales andeducation around the United
States, is that we need to getpeople to think outside of the
traditional pairings and fordrinking sake.
John Puma (26:46):
absolutely.
I think that's that's the key,is the key to to sake's growth
is getting it out of theJapanese restaurant.
Nothing against the Japaneserestaurants.
I love them, but but getting itinto places that don't, that
aren't like, Japanese cuisine orsomething like that.
Just having it someplace thatjust has, like American food is
such a, a game changer, I think.
And it's the thing that, that'sthat everybody's searching for.
Ryan Mellinger (27:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
If you can get tequila and, winefrom all parts of the world and
any place on the corner, why notsake?
John Puma (27:16):
Yeah.
That's the world I wanna livein.
Yes,
Timothy Sullivan (27:25):
Ryan, I wanted to ask you if you had any
stories or any anecdotes fromthis producer, from Marumoto san
or from the Chikurin brand?
Ryan Mellinger (27:38):
Yeah.
Anyone who has had the pleasureto meet Muramoto san know that
he is such a gem such a lovely,endearing brewer and person.
He is really multifaceted.
this is in Okayama, in a verycountryside region, Asakuchi,
and they're at the base of thesemountains, so it's, there's not
(27:59):
a lot else but farmland and ricepaddies around, but he spends
his time, really, he thinks alot about it.
And yeah.
Sake making and what it means inmore of a philosophical sense.
So I know he spends a lot oftime meditating and cares a lot
about energy and what he putsinto the sake.
But then on the other side, heis also a house music dj.
(28:21):
He is got.
Blue Russian cats around thehouse.
He goes on motorcycle ridesbackpacking trips in the summer
when he can, when he's notbrewing sake.
He has got a lot of interestoutside of sake, which I think
really shows in the differenttypes of sake he makes.
So the Chikurin brand is a veryserious, beautiful, all estate
(28:42):
grown sake rice and using timein different ways.
So we have also namazake fromthem, which has no storage or
aging, and the karuyaka has alittle bit.
And then he also is the producerof hohoshu sparkling sake.
So very fun, youthful, pink andblue, bright colored sparkling
sake.
And he is also the brewer thatmakes the Joto graffiti cup that
(29:05):
we import.
So a little bit of fine diningand casual.
He likes to experiment
John Puma (29:11):
that's cool.
I'm still wrapping my headaround the house music DJ bit,
Timothy Sullivan (29:14):
Well,
John Puma (29:15):
that's awesome.
Timothy Sullivan (29:15):
John, I have to ask you, do you think that I
have visited this brewery in thepast?
John Puma (29:20):
I probably,
Timothy Sullivan (29:23):
I
John Puma (29:24):
statistically speaking, yes,
Timothy Sullivan (29:26):
I visited Marumoto Shuzo in 2008 in
October.
And so that goes way, way back.
And I have two quick storiesabout Marumoto san.
I agree.
He is a gem of a person.
And Regarding the DJ thing, hebrought me into his living room.
I was there by myself and heplopped me in the middle of the
(29:47):
couch and he said, I want toplay something for you.
And he put on classical musicand he wheeled in these big
speakers.
These are like six foot tallspeakers on either side of me.
And he wanted me to have thisexperience of hearing the music
from these surround sound.
And he also took the time todrive me around his Brewery area
(30:09):
and he showed me every singlerice field that he maintains and
they're all separate.
Some of them are super tiny, butthey are all his babies.
And he wanted to show me eachand every one where he's growing
rice, even though they're notconnected and they're spread
around the area.
And it was such dedication tothe rice growing side of it,
(30:31):
which is not usual for brewersbecause they usually just buy
the rice.
So those are.
Two of my impressions from mytrip way back when, but I
totally agree.
He's a gem.
Nothing's changed.
And these sakes are amazing thathe makes.
John Puma (30:45):
That's that.
That's awesome.
Timothy Sullivan (30:46):
This has been just fantastic to have you on
Ryan.
It's been so much fun to learnabout the Joto portfolio, a
little bit about your backgroundand particularly about.
This Chikurin brand and theFukamari in particular.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Before we say goodbye, I wantedto ask if you'd like to share
(31:09):
any ways that our listeners canconnect with you or connect with
Joto online.
What's the best way to learnmore about what you do?
Ryan Mellinger (31:17):
Thank you both for all the work you do in
educating and making thispodcast, inviting me.
I love to talk about sake, soanytime.
For those who would like tolearn more about what we do A
great way is to visit ourwebsite, jotosake.
com, j o t o s a k e, and alsoour Instagram at jotosake, which
(31:41):
I also manage and try topopulate with fun videos right
from the breweries so you cansee certain processes live in
action.
And yeah, we can't wait to seeyou or visit you in your city
nearby sometime.
And thanks for tuning in.
Timothy Sullivan (31:58):
Thanks again, Ryan.
Thanks so much for joining usand sharing this delicious sake
with us.
Such a pleasure to have youtoday.
I also want to thank all of ourlisteners for tuning in and
joining us.
We really do hope that you'reenjoying our show.
Now, if you'd like to show yoursupport for Sake Revolution, the
best way to support us is tovisit our community on Patreon.
(32:19):
We're a listener supported show.
And if you'd like to join us andsupport Sake Revolution, please
visit Patreon.com/SakeRevolutionto learn more.
John Puma (32:29):
Before we go, Tim, where can people find you on the
internet?
Timothy Sullivan (32:33):
Oh thank you for asking.
If you're looking to learn moreabout my work, you can visit
urban sake.com, the website orUrban Sake on Instagram.
I'm also teaching classes at theSake Studies Center, so sake
studies center.com, or sakeStudies Center on Instagram, and
(32:53):
as always, Sake Revolution,
John Puma (32:56):
Yeah, I think that's a given one.
Timothy Sullivan (32:57):
how about you, John
John Puma (32:59):
Social media stuff is going to be for me personally,
John Puma, NYC and then over atthe Sake Notes where my wife and
I post our sake adventuresoccasionally, and we have a good
time doing so.
On that note.
Please raise your glass.
Remember to keep drinking sakeand Kampai.
And
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